Forum Post: Global warming, my wife, and my epiphany
Posted 11 years ago on Sept. 7, 2012, 8:28 a.m. EST by Underdog
(2971)
from Clermont, FL
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
Yesterday, not long after reading an article on global warming, my wife came home from work and, as I usually do, I stepped outside to greet her. After the usual exchange of pleasantries, I mentioned that I just read a deeply disturbing article about global warming and suggested that she find the time to read it too. She must have been in a very bad mood from a hard day at work, because she said, "I don't want to know about anything that I can't do anything about. My life is depressing enough as it is. You shouldn't be reading stuff like that. You can't do anything about it, so why get yourself and me upset? You shouldn't be on that Occupy Wall Street site at all. You're just wasting your time. You have enough to do in the real world here at home, but you spend all your time on OWS."
I didn't say a word, shook my head, and went back into the house, while she began to take a water hose and started watering some plants. As I stood looking out the window at her, I had a vision...an epiphany.
Flash...millions and millions of people spending their precious and irretrievable time performing mundane and utterly useless tasks. Manicuring lawns, watering plants, trimming shrubs, perpetuating artificiality as if Nature cared somehow to have the equivalent of clean finger nails.
Flash...millions/billions of people with exactly the same attitude as my wife. Heads buried in the sand like ostriches. Knowledge too painful to face, so it is repressed instead of being used as a catalyst for addressing the truly-beyond-important frightening issues of our time.
Flash...gigantic mega-wealthy oil corporations and individuals who are fully aware that global warming is real and dangerous to the planet who, merely for the sake of the profit motive, completely ignore and are, in fact, fully committed to transforming Earth into another planet Venus regardless of the knowledge they possess. Their knowledge of the accelerated effects now being observed, that "planet Heat" is upon us NOW, not decades away, has no impact. They are robots; boardroom psychopaths who only understand dollar signs and investor demands. Planetary destruction means nothing and takes a backseat to profit. Read the article.
Flash...the DEEP, DEEP realization sinks in -- it is too late. There is nothing that can stop it now. Global climatologists have been screaming and waving their arms for two decades. They are ignored. Millions are asleep as they have always been; as they continue to be. Greed continues to run amok and takes priority over planetary survival. Food shortages multiply as drought begins to increase globally. Wars break out regionally at first, then globally, over fresh water. Civilization begins to break down. Governments deploy troops worldwide to contain civil unrest, property destruction, and looting of fresh water stores. Meanwhile, the greedy wealthy secure themselves in luxurious bunkers well fortified and supplied with all that is needed to long endure the ordeal. But even their supplies run out eventually.
I am not a man capable of crying. A tear did not run down my cheek, but inside I was thunderstruck. I sat down and began to contemplate. I realized that we are a ridiculous aberration; an evolutionary mistake; a planetary cancer. The 1% transform, the 99% go along for the ride they bring into existence. It is not a gentle ride. It is the worlds worst roller-coaster of violence and destruction. And we millions ride it without protest; without refusing to get off; without getting off and taking axes and chopping it into toothpicks. The 1% love their creations because they can only see dollar signs in their eyes. They see nothing else; care for nothing else; live for nothing else. We are cattle to them; the means to acquisition.
My wife came inside from her watering and broke my contemplation with her usual requests. Take out the garbage. Load the dishwasher. Sweep the floor. I complied.
Tasks meaningless and mundane fill our lives. Then we die.
Life is "... a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing." (to quote Shakespeare).
Insanity.
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This is one of the truly Great posts I've seen on this forum.I have reluctantly had to conclude essentially the same thing.The anxiety is really hard to live with.I haven't felt well a single day since the Invasion of Iraq;even a little kid would have known the consequences of these wars on our house-of-cards economy.I was able to note and recognize every step on this road to ruin.The collapse of the economic structure will continue,and 500 ppm carbon in the atmosphere will be here very soon.
"This is one of the truly Great posts..."
Correction. If it is anything, it is one of the saddest. I take no pleasure in any of this. It ought to make anyone capable of understanding what has happenned want to throw up; to be disgusted, angry, and sickened by what we have collectively allowed to happen. It's all over now -- academic; like watching the Titanic tipping its stern in the air before it goes down. The sinking is assurred. Only a matter of time now. Can anyone be saved? Are there any lifeboats?
With reference to many matters 'Climate Change', I append a link to my forum-post, which has many relevant links to compliment your 'cris de coeur forum-post' above :
Also, please see : "Beyond the Brink -- A Climate Change Investigation" :
The Trailer : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OcmakdstupM ,
Part 1 of 3 : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSyhbDtG4kc ,
Part 2 of 3 : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZjzhKy5NBw &
Part 3 of 3 : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57QhB1kS26M .
Finally, also see : "Get Used To 'Extreme' Weather, It's The New Normal", by Connie Hedegaard :
"Scientists have been warning us for years that a warmer planet would lead to more extreme weather - and now it's arrived".
sic transit gloria mundi ...
Thanks shadz for your usual great follow-up contributions. I don't know where you find all of your stuff, but you are a great researcher and contributor to this forum. Keep it up!
Cheers 'Ud'. T'inter-web - it's 'GR8', innit ? ~:-)
dum spiro, spero ...
Just makes me feel bad for your wife.
Ever see the Godfather? "You can act like a man!"
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I've known about it for decades, Zen. Just like you, I have been deeply concerned about it for a long time. That article you provided, coupled immediately to my wife's attitude about it, just crystalized the whole situation into a powerful vision.
I KNOW there is no hope now. I KNOW the stupidity and shortsightedness of mankind will result in planetary lifeform extinction. I KNOW that existentialism is true.
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It is beyond dire. Unless some charismatic world leader emerges that takes up the gauntlet and challenges the world to save itself, we are done. For that is how the world works.
I have no faith in untested geoengineering, which is our last defense. It will be interesting to see how this proceeds. How are we to determine the quantity of a geoengineering technique to apply without detrimental effects occurring to the earth? Mathematical modeling? LOL the whipping boy of the denialists?
Will modeling suddenly come into vogue to save the earth?
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On a global scale? I can't think of one.
I have already included all of that in the vision. We are done. It is over.
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That's about all we can do now. Like watching the Titanic with her stern in the air. When will she go down?
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http://occupywallst.org/forum/global-warming-my-wife-and-my-epiphany/#comment-828555
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Can I get some credentials from you? Occupation? Years of education? No offense but I want to know who's making this prediction before I decide to worry or not. Is this coming from a famous scientist or from Bob in Accounting?
IT background. 4 years of college. I am nobody. But that is irrelevant and illogical. The greatest Ph.d(s) in science on the planet can do nothing if populations and governments aren't committed to reversal of current trends.
They aren't. We are done.
If you want to curl up and die, go ahead that's your choice. In fact, hurry up. You're wasting my oxygen. Just don't get in the way of those of us who got things to do.
Actually, this whole thread is a joke right? You're pulling everybody's leg with this whole Eeyore bit, aren't you.
No joke at all.
I'm sure most, if not all of your BullShit is fully addressed here.
http://scienceblogs.com/illconsidered/2008/07/how-to-talk-to-a-sceptic/
Screw global warming shooz. I was talking about his pathetic, whiny, woe is me crap. How do you talk to one of those losers?
I still like the Godfather approach. "You can act like a man!"
You do know who Eeyore is, right? And that he has nothing to do with global warming? Did that reference go over your head?
So exacerbate it with polar opposite commentary, bordering on insult?
I don't see how that's helpful to anything at all.
I don't think he wants to be helpful. He mostly appears to come here to insult people he disagrees with. It seems like his form of entertainment.
Kinda like a bully!
At least I don't go around calling people racists all the time.
Kinda like a Liberal bully would!
How is it wrong to call racists, racists?
I'm not seeing what you are getting at.
You want to ignore racism, as you have ignored global warming?
Now that's pathetic.
http://occupywallst.org/forum/its-not-about-race/
I was just getting under VQ's skin by bringing up a thread that drove him nuts, but man, do you make weird assumptions and accusations. When did I ignore global warming? When did I ignore racism? You are all over the place. And, before you go to your standby move, No Shooz, it is not wrong to call racists, racists.
But let's try to stay on topic. This is about how pathetic Underdog is
If it's not wrong, why did you point out that it's wrong?
"Screw global warming shooz"
"don't go around calling people racists"
Some of your own quotes there, just so you can see where I'm coming from.
Good Lord man. You need a keeper. Hate to entertain you, but here are some more of my quotes to help your reading comprehension.
Screw global warming shooz. I was talking about his pathetic, whiny, woe is me crap. (this was after you assumed my message to Underdog was a denial of Global Warming)
I was just getting under VQ's skin by bringing up a thread that drove him nuts.
Plus i said calling people racists, not calling racists racist. Don't know where you got that from. You must be feeling Republican today, all quoting people out of context and stuff.
I like bullying racists!
Me neither!
Only when they try to cover up and apologize for the Confederate States of Americas racist reasons for attacking the United States!
I call racist apologists, racists!
You're so right. Let's tell him how saddened we are that he is so sensitive that the inevitablilty of global warming has crippled him.
(Don't mention that you'd think the inevitablilty of his own death would have occured to him first)
C'mon. Even you have to be disgusted by how pathetic this is (if it's true).
I find your commentary divisive and insulting in it's ignorance of reality.
Pathetic, as you try and claim some kind of nonexistent "high ground".
How do you feel about his predicament? Is he was a friend who came over to talk what would you tell him?
I'd tell him to get out there and fight every single idiot that claims we can't do a thing about it.
To argue with every idiot that thinks man couldn't possibly affect a World system.
To vote against every politician that won't do a thing to alleviate it.
That's a start, anyway.
The majority of you fight your battles hiding behind the pc monitor
In other words "You can act like a man!"
Good job Shooz. There might be hope for you yet.
Here are some facts or extreme likelyhoods that some have confused with opinion:
Ever think about the possibility that the power-elite super-rich who run the world wouldn't mind if millions died due to GW? They, like Dickens' Scrooge, view us as the "surplus population" that could use a good die-off. It is obvious by their actions (or lack of action) that they view the lower classes with contempt, as this article indicates in detail.
As long as they have just enough slaves to do their bidding and provide for their wants/needs they are perfectly ok with letting millions die. They would, of course, publicly deny that. But their actions betray their lies, and if they are unwilling to move even a fraction of an inch on Wall Street reform, Election reform, Corporate reform, Banking reform, and all other needed reforms, all of which are fairly benign compared to GW, what makes you think they would lift a finger to prevent or reverse GW? They don't give a rats ass whether the "excess population" lives or dies. They'll just bunker down and get through it until its over and then reemerge to rule over a planet that will have even more for them because there will be less of us. We might see a return to the plantations where they will sit on their front porch sipping mint julips while their slaves are working in the fields again. They wouldn't mind that at all. Such is the nature of their selfish insanity.
So a couple of questions
How do you know these fertile areas will become infertile?
Why do you say we are doing nothing?
I had similar experience with family as well - some people care others don't which is fine as long as they don't berate you for caring and you don't berate them for not ... I think a large part is that when you do care and you can't find people that do it's a lonely road especially when they aren't even willing to give it a thought or even a few sentences what it also says in a way is that they don't care about the things that are important to you (this is a deeper issue and can be hurtful) - so I think this forum is important in that way to know other people care along with you and understand why you can't let it go
Yours is one of the few good responses I've seen about this. Most want to stick their head in the sand about it in complete denial. Others want to dismiss it as "normal and natural". I think a lot of the naysayers are that way because the implications are simply so huge that they go into cognitive dissonance about it. It is simply too great and the implications are so staggering that they can't face it, so they sorta "shut down" about it and shove it into the back of their minds into the "too big to think about" category. Such is the way our ape brains operate.
Yes, that is a disturbing realization, humanity is indeed lead by the least of us, and the bulk of us follow, not blindly, but out of habit perhaps.
Yes, it does appear that this will all end rather badly, and yet those of us that can see this, are unable to make a dent in the inertia of the bulk of humanities complacency,. .
Try some higher level ideas,. some thoughts on the non-material, the idea that all this is, in the higher order, reality nothing more than a video game of great depth and detail.
I think you smell the burning toast; http://www.gentleapocalypse.com/2012/06/burning-toast.html
Suggest;
http://deoxy.org/ (great free site no ads and mind blowing material)
http://www.realitysandwich.com/ (too many adds and pleas for cash here, but some interesting thoughts)
http://boingboing.net/ (great blog full of interesting posts,. many transcendent ideas found here every day)
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Do what you can do yourself and do not be frustrated about others not doing the same. It does not help. A tax on fossil fuels would help, and it would even help more if it is used to reduce taxes on labour.
People would just pay the tax, just like they will pay any price at the pump, because there is no alternative right now. Millions worldwide would have to pressure governments worldwide to move to clean energy NOW. Are they likely to do that? Is there even anything in place that could be implemented quickly?
When the US entered WW2, virtually our entire economy was converted to the war effort. Car production stopped. Tanks, ships, jeeps, guns, etc. were produced en masse to meet the threat of Germany and Japan. The world needs to approach the current crisis with the same intensity, but the perceived threat is not as great as seeing an enemy threatening you. Because global warming is "invisible" to the public, there is no outcry.
And down we go...
A high tax on fossil fuels would make it economically feasible to replace fossil fuel use with labour and renewable energy. There is a profit in doing that and will this make people come into action.
Profit seems to be more inspiring to people than saving the planet.
I have a question: How can you use bold and italic in your text? It seems not a default option you can use, but you are able to use it, and I have not yet figured out how to do it.
You may have a point about the tax, but my view of politicians is that global warming is very low on their priority list and they would likely use the tax for something else like debt reduction, etc.
The way you use the bold and italic is to put an asterisk directly in front of a word or phrase (no space between asterisk and letter you want affected), and then another one directly at the end of the word or phrase. One asterisks in front and one at the end will result in normal italic. Two asterisks in front and two at the end will result in bolded text. Three asterisks in front and three at the end will result in bolded italic text.
I think the tax will have the desired effect as it increases the cost of using fossil fuels. Alternatives will be more profitable but the tax alone will probably not do enough.
Quit moaning, get off your ass and do what you can to help those close to you.
"And worrying is less work than doing something to fix the worry. This is especially true if we're careful to pick the biggest possible problems to worry about. Everybody wants to save the earth; nobody wants to help Mom do the dishes.".
Sounds like you two need to take a vacation...
As a matter of fact, I am taking one starting today for one week (I'm going on a cruise).
But how will my going on vacation help the truth about global warming?
It won't
http://www.environmentalleader.com/2008/01/22/cruise-ships-worse-for-environment-than-planes/
It won't, but it will help your personnel life.
Have a very nice vacation.
Thanks.
I put this quote up on another thread recently, and am putting it up again in case someome missed it. "Politicians, including Mitt Romney and Barack Obama, serve the demented ends of corporations that will, until the final flicker of life, attempt to profit from our death spiral."
Truth. But the apathy of the populace is worse. If millions/billions of people stormed the gates of their respective governments and demanded that they focus on clean energy as priority #1, there might be a chance...a slim chance.
But they won't do that, so we are done.
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It's the same sort of formula that you propose, 'storming the gates' as being our only chance to rectify the enviromental dilema that we are in, that Mr. Hedges advocates for the situation we are in on the whole. I remember listening to a a 3 hour CSpan interview with Hedges. A caller asked him something to the effect: 'What can an older dispensable person do to see that his grandchildren grow up in a better world?' His answer was something like: 'Get your body out there.' Being in the streets is not what I had figured in doing in my retirement, but for my granddaughter, I know that I have to be. It is only when enough people become aware, and get out in the streets that this movement has a chance of being successful. It's that simple.
But is that something that people give up their jobs and their life to do? Wouldn't things have to get a whole lot worse before that happens? As bad as things are for some, there are a lot of people with jobs and generally happy lives. Until things get a lot worse, apathy will rule the day.
i agree with your assessment that until things get worse, apathy will rule the day. My hope, however, is for those that are still ok to understand the current trend will eventually get them , and they are wise enough to be proactive about our problems. My business will be gone in a few months.
Our problems are critical. I had to experience the horror of realizing that we are not trying to prevent Corporatisim from taking over, they have already taken over and now we have to take it back.
I'll be on Wall St S17.
Yes you are probably right in implying that things will have to get worse before they get better. We will be there when that happens, and many of the 'unkowing now' will then understand what we have been 'on' about all along. Gradually when people realize that this is the only way forward, even though they have other obligations like paying their bills, caring for their families, etc.......they can at least take part in other types of resistance in their daily lives, and by attending protests when they can, and by directly supporting the more full-time protesters in some way, ie. food, money, etc. The sense of community we need to sustain this movement is essential, and it will not be built on partisan politics, and hate.
Recently, I have had a friend who cannot attend protests promise to give me $10 a week for the cause. On Saturdays they have a Green Market day in Union Square where regional farmers come in to sell their produce. US is also where OWS maintains a near constant daytime presence with a couple of info tables. As in the past, I will now use the money from that friend to buy a couple gallons of apple cider, and donate it to the OWS food table. It's no biggie, I know, but this is the kind of thing that we should be promoting and organizing on here.
I think people need to look at trends over a longer period of time than 100 years to establish whether warming is natural or man-made. I've attached a link to a graph of over the last 1.3 million years. I'm also attaching the link that it came from with many graphs of climate heat and cold as well as sea levels. You can see that there have actually been times that the earth was even warmer than it is now. The earth's temps have risen and fallen from great heat to great cold. The graph in the first link also shows that after great heat there has been great cold drops. There have been many ice ages and heat ages. The warming has been somewhat consistent since before 1870 with a cool down in the 1970s that only lasted 10 years. My point is that the earth has it's own cycles and even if you believe man has caused the latest cycle, I would argue that it has stayed rather consistent in the last 150 years even though the explosion of the use of fossil fuels ramped up after the 1950s with the heavy use of cars, SUVs, jet planes, etc. You would think that the warming would be much more of a spike on the graph than it shows as compared to previous cycles. I think we all should be good stewards of the planet and develop and make use of renewables whenever possible but to be depressed about a theory that we may have caused it, just doesn't make sense when you see the whole picture over millions of years.
http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/temperature/1.35Myr.small.jpg http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/temperature/
Nothing in the geologic record and/or ice core samples and/or sediment samples (that I am aware of) indicates warming at the rate that we see now. That is how we know that it is man-made and that we are done for.
I posted quotes fromTHREE articles published on research that indicates that the ice core samples DO demonstrate warming at almost the exact same rates we see now. (below) I'll repost them here:
From the TEXTBOOK- • “ Many times during the last ice age, temperatures near Greenland warmed rapidly over periods of 1-100 years, followed by gradual cooling over longer periods (Dansgaard et al., 1993). For example, roughly 11,500 years ago, temperatures over Greenland warmed by roughly 8°C in 40 years in three steps, each spanning 5 years (Alley, 2000). Such abrupt warming is called a Dansgaard/Oeschger event. Other studies have shown that much of the northern hemisphere warmed and cooled in phase with temperatures calculated from the ice core.”
• “The climate of the past 8,000 years was constant with very little variability. Our perception of climate change is thus based on highly unusual circumstances. All of recorded history has been during a period of warm and stable climate.”
From the National Academy of Science-“Ice-Core evidence of abrupt climate changes”-
“For the best-characterized warming, the end of the Younger Dryas cold interval ≈11,500 years ago, the transition in many ice-core variables was achieved in three steps, each spanning ≈5 years and in total covering ≈40 years. However, most of the change occurred in the middle of these steps. The warming as recorded in gas isotopes occurred in decades or less.”
From the Copenhagen study-
‘Regarding the research results, Funder says, "Our studies show that there have been large fluctuations in the amount of summer sea ice during the last 10,000 years. During the so-called Holocene Climate Optimum, from approximately 8000 to 5000 years ago, when the temperatures were somewhat warmer than today, there was significantly less sea ice in the Arctic Ocean, probably less than 50% of the summer 2007 coverage, which was absolutely lowest on record. Our studies also show that when the ice disappears in one area, it may accumulate in another. We have discovered this by comparing our results with observations from northern Canada. While the amount of sea ice decreased in northern Greenland, it increased in Canada. This is probably due to changes in the prevailing wind systems. This factor has not been sufficiently taken into account when forecasting the imminent disappearance of sea ice in the Arctic Ocean."’
And here's another one to ignore/call lies because it wasn't published in Rolling Stone and written by a journalist:
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/health-science/ice-core-warming-within-bounds/story-e6frg8y6-1226456144974
"RECENT warming of the Antarctic peninsula is unusual but not unprecedented relative to natural variation, according to research published today in Nature."
"The Antarctic is currently one of the most rapidly warming regions on Earth but an analysis of ice-core records has found the rise in temperatures is "within the bounds of natural climate variability over the past 600 years"."
"The research by Robert Mulvaney of the British Antarctic Survey, Cambridge, countered assumptions that human factors were responsible for the warming of the Antarctic ice shelf."
Article 5 is the only way to effect behaviors significantly enough to cease contributing to the demise of the atmospheric thermal balance.
America sets global social standards for expectations. As long as we vilate our constitution by allowing 350 times more nucular weapons than are required to destroy life on the planet, as long as we destroy our air and water by indulgent uses of petroleum, our atmosphere and our evolution are endangered.
Correction. "...our atmosphere and our evolution are destroyed."
If you just posted that, you are prone to exageration.
Firstly, I'm not trusting all academic perspective. I know our atmosphere is getting bad, but our evolution depends on our stopping. All things are possible.
You don't know what you don't know. If we do the right thing, something I would suggest is approaching life as an unconscious experience (obviously if we just jacked-up our atmosphere), amazing things could happen.
Here is an example of something you might not have known, or perhaps thought of in these terms. This graphic depicts an absolute relationship of human mental attributes and proportions. The implications of "what we don't know" are huge.
http://i41.tinypic.com/a15nx3.jpg
Our evolution depends on our collective decision making. Article 5 now!
I began writing what they call a Mission Statement. You know -- a Mission Statement -- a suggestion for the future.
What started out as one page became twenty-five. Suddenly I was my father's son. I was remembering the simple pleasures of my job, how I ended up here out of law school, the way a stadium sounds when one of my players performs well on the field... I was remembering even the words of the late Dicky Fox, the original sports agent, who said:
"The key to this job is personal relationships."
And suddenly it was all pretty clear. The answer was fewer clients. Caring for them, caring for ourselves, and the games too. Starting our lives, really.
We must embrace what is still virginal about our own enthusiasm, we must crack open the tightly clenched fist and give back a little for the common good, we must simply be the best versions of ourselves... that goodness will be unbeatable.
Hey, I'll be the first to admit it. What I was writing was somewhat "touchy feely." I didn't care. I had lost the ability to bullshit. It was the me I'd always wanted to be.
I printed it up in the middle of the night, before I could re-think it.
THE THINGS WE THINK AND DO NOT SAY
The Kinko's guy said "That's how you become great, man. You gotta hang your balls out there."
That was beautiful Good to see that side of you.
it was actually a scene from the movie Jerry Maguire. This post had my brain thinking about it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fSi4HHNOnd0
Good Post
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When I first read your post, I completely identified with your epiphany and the loneliness you must have felt in the disconnect with your wife. However, let's try to look at this from both sides. Your wife is more than likely just as concerned and frustrated as you are but she also knows that as long as she's breathing, she must do what is required of her in order to survive and she's probably trying to avoid anything that will further stress her out and drain her mentally, emotionally and physically. After all, if we are drained, we cannot function/survive and be there for those who need us. The reality is that as long as we are breathing, we MUST conform to the conventional mundane daily task dictated by others who have no regard for our well-being or we suffer horribly. I'll assume that your wife is not a wasteful glutton??? and in that assumption I'm assuming that she's just in survival mode, trying to stay as energized and positive as she can in order to get through the day while also making thoughtful choices along the way. It's more difficult to ignore the negatives in our lives because they place a heavier toll on us relative to the positives. What will help you and your wife is to be realistic by acknowledging the negatives but also working together to make choices that support the kind of world you want to see. More importantly is that neither of you live in denial and dismiss each other's concerns. It's very comforting to know that you have a partner in life and friends who share your concerns but who also, despite the sad realities, lift you up and help you re-charge when life becomes overwhelmingly negative. It's a struggle every day for so many of us. A friend of mine put a gun to his head last week. His savings had been depleted and he was unemployed and wanted to die before ALL his money was gone so that he could leave something for his children's education and financial security. What he left was very little. My epiphany in that experience was in the sad realization that this intelligent, caring man knew that his presence in his children's lives was less valuable in our world today than his money. Many years ago, upon hearing the sad news of his suicide, I would have thought, ' How awful that he felt he had nothing to live for, no meaning or purpose in his life'. But, this time, I thought, ' He's in a good place now, he's not suffering anymore'.
I see your point, and it has merit. I am not berating my wife by any means, and I love her deeply. But she provided the means whereby I had the vision...the epiphany...that was quite strong, overpowering in fact.
The revelation of your friend's suicide is one of the most tragic I have heard in some time. He needed a different perspective on things. Too bad he couldn't gain it. We all can get trapped in certain ways of thinking and can see no alternatives. Very sad that someone would end their life over money.
Thank you for your comment.
I didn't think that you were berating your wife in any way. We've all been in similar situations. I struggle to spin anything with positive anymore because I feel like a delusional liar but I am a woman and know that women carry a ton of worry on them all the time. My friend e had no other choice than to end his life. We all knew that. He would have been of no good to his children if he were in jail, homeless or anything other than dead. He was concerned about the money because sadly, the money is what humans need to live and survive in America. What other perspective should he have had and why? He had run out of time and been as hopeful as he could have for far too long. His children, sadly, are better off without him now because he could not care for them but now they will receive his social security benefit. My friend was not delusional or ignorant. He was a realist who knew that if he continued to stay alive, his children would end up worse off than without him. I know how cold and detached I may sound but Undie, This is the reality for so many today. I can't even cry anymore. My well has run dry.
I don't know the detailed circumstances that led to your friend's suicide, but might I enquire, was he truly left with no alternatives, or his perception that there were no alternatives? Again, I tread lightly here, because I don't want to stand in judgement of anyone...especially someone who would choose the path he took. But was there truly nowhere else to turn? The United Way has all kinds of assitance programs to help people who have hit "rock bottom". There were no family or friends that he could turn to? Did pride prevent him from seeking out help? Again, I want to emphasize that I am quite empathetic to the situation, and really just wish that he could have seen a way out of it other than the course he took.
I understand your questions. I had the same ones but I also understand his complete frustration with the system. Ironically, it was others' perception of him that limited his ability to receive assistance. No one could believe that his circumstances were as dire as they were given his education and employment history. He received assistance with utilities and things like that but it's only temporary and he had to wait a certain amount of time before he could receive even that. No one believed that he would remain unemployed... Not his doctor, not social services, not anyone and the mortgage company would not work with him and actually refused to payments from him. He was terrified of his wife losing the kids to the system. At one point, one of our friends told him to go see a psychiatrist and claim to be clinically depressed just so he could get disability payments. He did that but then realized that IF a job were to come available, he would have this on his record that he was seeking mental health services. He inquired about other assistance and we helped him with meals by inviting him to dinner and such. Receiving assistance is much more complicated than people think and it seems that you really need to be homeless and at rock bottom before anyone will work with you and THEN, they want you to stay in the system and limit your ability to work out of it. All of us were professionals at one point. Out of ten of us, only two are employed now and one is deceased. What happened to him was horrific. He went to work one day and they told his department that they had to take two weeks off while they moved their offices to a new location. They moved them to India, never told anyone and then called back and said they were fired. I'm sure that was enough to blow his mind. Then his wife lost her job of 20+ years. It's really quite a nasty world out there and none of us are safe and secure anymore..especially if you're over 50. I can't believe that our county has now put a 25 dollar late fee on the utility bill that increased 34 percent last year. Most people who can't pay their bills on time can't afford excessive fees like that. I called and complained but whoopdeedoo. The county admin. doesn't care. I'm sure that all of these unfair business practices weighed heavily on my friend even more after he became a slow payer. All he could see was his money being thrown away to bureaucrats while his family suffered. I'm sure that in the beginning, his pride was bruised but it didn't take him to long to get over that. He worked really hard to do anything he could to earn money but it simply wasn't enough to sustain his family, he was spinning wheels and not getting anywhere and it wore him down.
That is a moving story. I wish it could get wide distribution because it is a perfect example of what the system is driving people to...to acts of desperation and, yes, even suicide in some instances.
I wonder what the Koch brothers and other wealthy power-elites would think of such a story. Not much I'm guessing. Heartless bastards. When people are driven to such actions and the country has gotten so bad, the people have to rise up and change things. That's why Occupy is around now.
Yes, it's a sad but all too common story these days Undie. There are so many suicides and homicides due to desperate parents. Almost weekly, I hear of a husband and wife suicide by the elderly and it's so sad. Just this morning on the news, a local woman discovered that she has lung cancer and no one will treat her because she has no insurance and the only cancers that Medicaid or Medicare treats is uterine and ovarian ( I thnk those were the two they mentioned). Where is Obama's health reform? This is criminal and why I hate doctors. If I were a doctor I would treat her anyway and if they fire me, so be it. F them! So, I'm going to try and find a doctor who will help her. I think I know of one in West VA who would welcome her with open arms and then we just need to raise money to transport her there and help pay the bills at her apt. It's always the poor helping the poor. Screw Romney and his fat cat offshore bank accounts. Screw them all. SOrry to rant this way but I've had a horrible morning and all this world misery drags me down. I had to be at the farmer's market at 8am to set up my stand ( which is how I earn money now) BUT, when I was leaving, I smelled gas in my garage and even though I was running late, something kept gnawing at me to call the gas company so I did. Two years ago I got a new furnance and I knew it was going to be a piece of junk like everything else that is new. A few days after they installed it, I smelled gas outside on my deck. Turns out that my furnace had 12 gas leaks and the gas was exiting in the exhaust pipe and blowing down on my deck. The contractor was pissed that I called the gas company!!! Those leaks got fixed but this morning I smelled an enormous amount of gas again and called the gas company thank goodness.. They told me on the phone to evacuate and such but I just hung out and waited for the gas man. I figured if the house blew, I wouldn't know what hit me and I would be in a better place with my friend anyhoo. At least the gas man was nice and fixed my furnace but he said the contactor did not install it to code and to have it redone. Always something! Take Care Undie, ..Debbie Downer ;(
Yes, it seems everyone is struggling. In my immediate family there are those with no income and on assistance. It is probably no exaggeration to say that the majority of people (>50%) are having trouble making it, even if they have jobs. It is wonderful that you are helping that woman. That is the kind of thing, my elderly mother has told me, that used to go on back in the 1930s during the Great Depression. At its height, unemployment was 25%. Can you imagine 1 out of 4 people unemployed? And they didn't have all the assistance programs then that we do now. So if people wanted to actually physically survive, they absolutely HAD to rely on each other. If anything good can come out of this Great Recession, it's maybe that people who don't know each other can come together and band together and help each other make it. Great things can come out of such hardships. Lifelong friendships formed and such as that. Heartwarming stuff actually.
You sound like you have it pretty darn tough. Hang in there! Things can (and usually do) get better eventually.
We all have problems but what is so disheartening about our current recession is that there is no light at the end of the tunnel. During the depression, times were really tough but there was room to grow and create jobs. People were resourceful.....women of the home could sew and cook. Men were handy and skilled tradesmen. Today, a good seamstress can't even find quality fabric to make anything with and most people are more willing to waste their money on cheap clothes at retailmarts. People in general had something to barter with in those days. They could cook or clean in exchange for firewood or other necessities. People grew their own food and exchanged those items as well. It's interesting to compare the culture of the depression vs today.
I'm not doing well but for the time being I have something to eat and a roof over my head. For that I feel truly blessed. I guess it's the unkknown, uncertainty, fear that eats at me all the time. When is the bottom going to drop out from under me? I'm tired is all. Just plain tired of struggling.
I hope you aren't living alone, or if you are that you have someone to turn to for support. It is easier if people can share each others burdens. Even then life can be pretty damn tough. Just try to live in the moment if you can, and keep a positive attitude that things are going to get better.
Yes, I'm alone and probably more alone than I should be but that's a whole 'nother topic that I won't go into right now. I don't trust most folks anymore and I have good reason to feel that way. Last night, after my adventurous day, I came in and turned on the TV which was a big mistake. I heard Nancy Grace's voice talking about some 13 year old kid who slaughtered his grandmother for pizza money. Sure seems like Wes Craven is directing life in America today.
Yesterday I stopped at a shop-mart for some fuel and the sweet cashier asked me how I was doing. I told her, ' not so good but how are you?" After talking a bit it turns out that she's homeless and living in a hotel with her husband who lost his job two years ago and still unemployed and she's working two jobs just to pay the 180 dollars per week for the room. I asked her if they were hiring and she laughed and said they just cut everyone's hours across the board and now she's down to two days a week. She told me that she lost her food stamp assistance when she got the job that just cut her hours. She still can't quality for them unless she quits working. She had a free Obamaphone but they cut that off because she is working that same job and so, had to get one of those pay as you go phones. I told her that I love to cook and would be happy to make some meals for her and her husband and deliver them to the hotel for her. She doesn't qualify for meals on wheels since she's working two petty jobs at the shop mart and pancake house. She's a mature lady, but not sure how old....60 plus maybe. All of a sudden life felt completely unbearable and I burst into tears and kept saying, " I'm so tired, so tired of struggling' and she reached over and said, ' I know you are honey. Come back here tomorrow and sit with me while I work and we'll talk". She smiled and was so comforting. She offered to pay me 30 dollars a week for the food that I will cook for them but I would not accept that...not yet anyway. I got up this morning and took her some fruit cocktail and chicken salad that I made last night and a loaf of bread for her lunch(es) and a big bottle of vitamins. Oh, also heard that suicide rate now far exceeds traffic related deaths. No surprise there. They say the rate is much higher than reported because it doesn't count over-dose from medications.
Have a good day Undie ;D
That's what I'm talking about. You're out there making contact and doing good things for people despite all of your problems.
You should consider keeping a journal. Not only does it help get things out (which has a good psychological effect if you don't have anyone to talk to), but you might be able to use it as source material for a future book or something. You seem to have some degree of talent for relating the vicissitudes of daily life in an impactful way (at least you have moved me with your story).
I wonder how many such stories come across Obama's desk? I feel the man is genuine in his concern for the little guy/gal...much more so than Mitt Rob Me could ever possibly conceive. But government can only do so much (which is not to say that it can't do more).
It seems that this generation is destined to experience that which our parents and grandparents experienced in the Great Depression, which lead to a lifelong obsession after that with hoarding and tight-clinching of money. My mom still has those Depression-Era habits that she learned, and she is far from poverty. But as long as I can remember she has always lived with fear and worry every single day of her life...like they would come to push her out into the street at any moment. Growing up with her like that, I learned that money is important and I was taught to have low expectations and not live beyond one's means. But, at the same time, I learned that living that way produces a certain neurosis that is unhealthy. Eventually, to reduce stress and high blood-pressure (after I had a panic attack and was taken to hospital some years ago) I learned to become somewhat of a fatalist and to relax and live in the moment as much as possible. Doesn't mean that we just lay back and do nothing, but it is an attitude of how to look at life.
My dad (who is dead now) used to say "Enjoy life while you can, cause someday you won't be able to" (implying death). Another guy I knew gave me a lifelong attitude phrase -- "Every day above ground is a GREAT day!!!" These types of things help us cope with the difficulties of life and help to put things into perspective. Whenever I think about how bad things might be for me (which they really aren't right now despite my long-term unemployment) I think about the billions of others all around the world that go to bed hungry in shacks with poor or no medical facilities and other horror shows like you see on CARE commercials and such. That shit really snaps me back to reality when I see that.
Take care Gillian
I've always been a great humanitarian despite my loathing of humans. It all started one Christmas Eve with my dad. Every year my father would buy a big turkey and all the fixins, pack up a big sack full of toys and go way out into the country and find the most poor family in need that you could imagine. We were near Appalachia and my home town was mostly poverty stricken families. When I got old enough, I guess seven or eight, he took me with him. That was my first intro to severe poverty and what it actually looks like up close in a poor family house. As poor as we were, it made me forget all about my own problems and I felt very rich in comparison. I still carry on that same tradition every Christmas Eve but it's become more difficult to do so since there are so many in need who are not really in need. I spend the year scouring the rural areas and look for families that are too proud to ask for help. The odd thing about me is that I'm a very aloof maverick and have little interest in sharing my time or space with anyone human. Yet, I won an award for best personality once, won an award for the work I've done mentoring. Am I just the epitome of the hypocrite or what? It's a torturous dual life of an Aquarian that I lead. I'm kind but I'm jaded and cynical anymore..a grumpy old woman I guess. I'm always in rescue mode ( but only for those who actually need it) and I have often neglected myself to a fault. So, I, the vegetarian prepared a huge turkey meatloaf for the Mr and Mrs and a big pan of scallop potatoes and some fresh green beans from my garden and delivered it to their room. It will last them a couple of days unless they love it so much that they become greedy gluttons and eat me out of house and garden like Romney would warn. hahahahha One advantage of having a garden is that I have plenty of free food to share for several months out of the year. I taught another woman how to make butternut squash chili the other day at the farmer's market. My next mission is to teach children how to prepare healthy foods.
You're right about the depression hoarding...I'm beginning to become that neurotic. My grandmother was like that and she was a millionaire. But, I grew up very very poor believe it or not and as a result, my brother was so traumatized that he hoards every penny...LITERALLY. When he left for college, my mother and I were cleaning his room and found three large trash cans of pennies. We had to haul them to the bank and there were so many that he was able to live on that money for two years at school. He thought there would be a copper shortage when he was a young boy. He's now a VP of a big wall street bank. Figures and yes, it has created a bit of tension between us. Oh gosh, the CARE thing. When I was young, my parents would adopt a child through CARE for the summer. The boy would come live with us each summer from an Indian reservation. Anyway, when I was in college, I was sitting up late one night studying and that durn commercial came on and I was sobbing into my brand new nightie and felt so guilty for buying it that I called them and sent money and got my picture of my child, etc... I don't do that anymore though. I don't trust those organizations and I'm strictly a hands-on humanitarian. I like building homes for Habitat for Humanity too. That's a lot of fun and it recharges me. Does Obama ' get this'? I believe as you do that he's certainly more in touch with the po folks of this nation than Romney. However, and I speak from experience, it's all too easy to lose touch when you have money, have transporation, have clothing and food and a roof over your head. It's easy to lose touch when you have other distractions..good and bad...in your life. Even though I'm very aware of suffering and poverty, it's not something that I see every day up close and every time that I meet a homeless person, it's never easier for me. It's like seeing poverty for the first time. So, I guess I'm trying to say that even the most compassionate humans need to step out of their comfort zone and take a look close up of apartments without drywall and exposed wiring, lead paint, children sitting on filthy floors with no heat, Christmas morning without as much as a hot roll to eat or one tiny package to open. Undie, you could do me a big favor if you would find a family and help them this Christmas. It's the spirit of the season that warms the soul, softens the heart and restores the child like joy in a struggling child's grown up heart. One of the boys in a group that I mentor was so angry at me one Christmas because I was trying to be all happy. He didn't want me to take his picture with his mom next to Santa because his shirt was too big and ugly and he just plain hated life. I didn't blame him one bit. He told me that Santa was a bunch of crap and that there was no santa. A few hours later when I was leaving, I felt someone run up and throw their arms around my legs. WhenI looked down it was the boy and he said, ' Do you really work for Santa?". " Yep, I sure do and I'm sure that Santa will hire you too if you want to work for him". His eyes lit up like two huge fireballs. He squeezed me so hard that I now have varicose veins.
I must sign off as Debbie Downer again...my motto is: " The sooner I get off this damn planet, the happier I'll be".. hahahahha But Undie, I'll never forget you or all the kind, wise and compassionate words you've shared with me. I'll definitely put you in my ' Thank you God for...' book. I keep one of those and in it are names of exceptional humans that have graced my life over the years. ;D
Hey Gillian. I've been reading your thread with Underdog and have found it to be very moving. I hope you guys can both find joy in the small things and truly wish you peace in all that you do.
bw, you and I haven't talked much, but I have to tell you, when I hear stories like Gillian's that are representative of millions of others in this country, and the fact that some people are driven to such desperation as to commit suicide, I am filled with moral indignation when I think about the millionaires and billionaires and how they go about their lives oblivious to this other dark reality that so many are experiencing. More and more, it is driving me into a firm belief that this country needs to go the way of Sweden -- a democratic and capitalistic country but with a HEAVY social net that ensures there are no other stories like this. The Swedes NEVER have to worry about shit like this. And we COULD have it here, but the gd mf's that control the wealth and the country and the politicians, along with the MIC and our military profit machine that seeks dollars through death ensures that the misery keeps going on and on and on. I wish I were god for just 5 minutes. I would send Romney and all the other super-rich into abject poverty for a week so they could wtfu to what is really going on, for they know NOTHING about these types of stories.
I want to eliminate/destroy the aristocracy in this country and raise the poor and struggling up into one middle class where people are comfortable and all of their needs are met. No one would be rich and no one would be poor. Technologically there is nothing that would prevent it. I have even outlined a way to do away with the money system entirely because I truly feel that it is the source and we need to go right to the rotten source of the problem because human nature won't change, so we need to rip the money system away and replace it with Socialism's labor-voucher system using modern technology that would prevent all the abuse and manipulation that has been occurring for thousands of years by the wealthy class. I get so gd mad when I hear stories like this I want to go beat some rich mf to death.
Hi Beautiful ;D Thanks for your blessings. We can always use a good dose of sunshine. It's a harvest moon tonight- the perfect night to celebrate the light that shines within and around us. It's absolutely beautiful, just like you.
Thanks for your kind words Gillian. Glad you're back around these parts. I always read your stories and they always have deep meaning, so thanks.
I hate breaking into this lovely thread by you and Gillian, lol, but I agree with everything you said below. Yes, we need really monumental change here in this country. Many of us are just as frustrated and angry about the state of affairs. I suppose that is why we come on this forum and do the other things that we do. It is very hard to imagine why the American people are so slow to wake up. That is something I've been pondering for a long time.
Goodness! I've never seen Undie so angry. I must admit that although I am not one to promote anger and negativity, I like it when he gets mad. Here's the thing.....as much as I love OWS, sometimes I just wish they would revolt in a supercharged angry way instead of playing pacifist nice guy all the time. We need a revolt, a super-charged stinging revolt that others will join and force change. We are a violent, competitive, dog eat dog country and sadly, that's how one needs to behave in order to gain respect and attention ( sick I know) today. I was thinking last night about how the poor folks that I meet always seem somewhat resigned and tolerant of their situation and I began to examine why that is. First of all, they are not really apathetic or complacent it's just that they have no other choice but to do the most basic task in the moment to survive and it doesn't do any good to sit around complaining or putting what security they do have at risk. The poor are also always in a desperate state and therefore it's not 'safe' to rock the boat at work, to question anything or even to publicly protest because they have no means to financially defend themselves and they can't afford to lose ANYTHING. Any of us know that when we make decisions in a desperate moment, we pay dearly which also translates into paying even more for something or suffering even worse. There is a deeply ingrained prejudice and stereotype against those in poverty. In fact, many successful folks don't even want to mentor the poor or assist unless it's for a tax deductible charitable contribution. It's as if they believe that by associating with the poor that they will catch that disease or that people will think less of them. People know there is a problem in America and they know that there is a grave inequality but we have been so conditioned to be competitive and egocentric that no one wants to 'complain' for fear that others will consider them a loser. Those in power have orchestrated this egocentricity to benefit them and I believe Chomsky has talked about this many times. Ever wonder why parents of bully kids are 'proud' of them? Parents love the idea that their kid is 'strong' and powerful even if their kid hurts another. It's truly sick. On the other hand, the parents with the peaceful loving kids are often bullied by other parents who tell them that their kid is a wimp. Sports have become one of the ways that the powers that be train their ' slaves/soldiers' under the guise that it's just a game...yeah, right.. Did you see the Hunger Games? I could barely watch it. How many slaves complained to their masters? How many slaves actually believed that they could live a better life in this country? In any state of oppression, the victims begin to identify with their perps. I think they call it the Stockholm Syndrome. In any event, the more desperate people become, the more fearful they become and more easily demoralized and then led by the rich and powerful. I appreciate what OWS stands for but throwing rock concerts to raise awareness isn't going to help change anything.We don't need another fund raiser, we don't need another hero, we don't need another monument or a day of rememberance, we don't need more awareness, we need to get super angry and get even! I'm tired of this crap, tired of pussyfooting around the issues.
Great comment, gillian. You make so many good points there. The poor, and even the middle class (former), have been shamed into not asking for anything. If they ask, they feel it is admitting their own failure. This is just not true. What they don't realize is that the economic system is rigged against them and it is through no fault of their own that they can't survive on their measly wages.
I also agree that we need people to stop being polite. The millions of suffering Americans do not have to be polite. There is no shame in calling for a society that has an economic system that works for all people. In fact, it is shameful to not ask for it.
Flash: You've just been served your papers. While you're at it, get a job.
Let me tell you about the world in Flash: None of your present concerns will even exist three decades from now.
True, I'll likely be gone (or close to it). But that attitude is the ultimate in selfishness. What about all of our progeny now alive and those who are yet unborn who will have to face it.
This isn't about me at all.
There's at least a remote possibility that science will cure all our present concerns - marriage, sex, abortion, race... air, wind, and sky... everything will be addressed.
"...science will cure all our present concerns..."
Brahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah....
And where would politics be without issues, ehh?
I thought the name changed and went from "global warming" to climate change?
The name doesn't matter. A rose by any other name. The results are what matter. I see the point, as if to emphasize that this is all a natural process as oppossed to an artificially-induced one. Very clever that. There is tons of data now that indicates the latter and not the former.
Everyone, I really don't know what to think about man made climate change. The factions are so hysterical it's hard to have a empirical and unbiased grounded discussion about it.
Additionally, it seems to me there is nothing that could be realistically done about it if it is real for two reasons:
1 - Even if you instituted international laws for carbon emissions, some countries will not obey, and that fuel will be burned anyway.
2 - Preventing people from using fuel will have negative side effects. In averting potential disaster, it would create an immediate humanitarian disaster for those in poverty, likely resulting in millions starving to death.
It seems to me that human innovation and technology is the solution. If humanity can goose the trend for accelerating innovation in energy production, carbon emissions will crash. If energy can be generated more cheaply and safely people will naturally move to it. That's why I'm excited about Thorium LFTR technology.
Here's an interesting podcast from the other side of the conversation: http://www.financialsense.com/financial-sense-newshour/guest-expert/2012/08/25/03/tim-ball-joe-bastardi-marc-morano/global-warming-fact-fiction-or-conspiracy
LOL you wont be married for long
You know what caused the end of the ice age?
GLOBAL WARMING.
Fucking arrogant liberals have decided that in the 5 billion year history of the Earth, RIGHT NOW, is the perfect temperature....and they know how to keep it here, as though they have a thermostat for the planet.
What incredible fucking arrogance. Man cannot destroy planet Earth. Get the fuck over your imagined power.
I am not concerned about planet Earth. I am concerned about the LIFE on planet Earth. Nothing in that 5 billion year history you mentioned has ever contained an artificial industrial engine that spews out gigatons of carbon. Nothing.
OK...now you're hysterical.
Impacts upon this planet from asteroids/meteors spewed GIGATONS of carbon into the air.
Volcanoes erupting violently spewed gigatons of carbon into the air.
Underwater volcanoes and lava vents CONTINUOUSLY spew carbon into the oceans 24/7-which then evaporates gigatons of carbon into the air.
Which is WHY the actual AIR itself-subtracting all of the gigatons of carbon WE have spewed into it-has always NATURALLY CONTAINED gigatons of carbon!!!!
Here's another source saying:
"Ice cores drawn from Greenland, Antarctica, and tropical mountain glaciers show that the Earth’s climate responds to changes in solar output, in the Earth’s orbit, and in greenhouse gas levels. They also show that in the past, large changes in climate have happened very quickly, geologically-speaking: in tens of years, not in millions or even thousands."
http://ossfoundation.us/projects/environment/global-warming/human-caused
From the very link you provided, here is the answer.
Human Caused Global Warming
How do we know this global warming is human caused, or man made? is global warming real, or a hoax? Consider the facts: the climate has left the natural cycle path. Multiple lines of evidence and studies from different fields all point to the human fingerprint on current climate change. The convergence of these evidence lines include ice mass loss, pattern changes, ocean acidification, plant and species migration, isotopic signature of CO2, changes in atmospheric composition, and many others. The only identifiable cause is human influence and increased greenhouse gas emissions. Science has simply not found any other cause factor that can account for the amount of current increased radiative forcing and associated warming.
Volcanoes and such are occasional, for the most part. And they are natural, not artificial. We have been continuously belching carbon artificially for 150+ years. As the human population increased, it got worse. There is nothing to indicate that the human population will decrease significantly (unless there is an unanticipated disaster that kills off millions/billions), so artifical carbon output will continue to rise as the demand increases. Developing nations, and especially China, will significantly contribute to the artifical carbon output in coming decades.
We are done.
Volcanoes and such are "occasional"? There are currently "active" volcanoes. There are also hydrothermal vents spewing HOT water (up to 400 degrees C) into the ocean 24/7 and they have been for centuries.
Hydrothermal vents-http://www.ceoe.udel.edu/kiosk/blacksmoker.html
Since we didn't even KNOW that hydrothermal VENTS in the ocean floor even existed until 1977-we are just BARELY beginning to understand them and all their complexities. Including how all the stuff they spew out is affecting the environment.
Now I realize that I'm asking a very over simplified question here, but it's BASIC science after all.
What happens if you pour a glass of boiling water into a bathtub filled with cold water? Not much right? What happens if you continue to pour glasses of boiling water into that bathtub over a long period of time? It would eventually raise the temperature of the water right? Sure. Basic science.
Now transfer that idea to the oceans filled with minerals and other organic matter from above and make your "glass of water" the stuff that comes out of a geothermal vent. Add some wind, some sunshine, some evaporation, some condensation, some ultraviolet radiation, and some human beings into the mix etc. Gets very complicated. Takes a long time to work out exactly how each one of those drivers affects what happens to the water. And scientists are the first to admit that they DO NOT KNOW exactly how they do.
But people like you, who are NOT scientists, by all means-keep screaming the mantra as you put it :
"In point of fact, there is tons of evidence that indicates that what we are seeing now has been artificially induced by humans. There is so much data now about it that it borders on the ridiculous."
As long as you believe that you have the RIGHT to continue to IGNORE and REFUSE to include or DISCOUNT all of the OTHER data on all of the OTHER sources that contribute to our atmosphere/environment-you must grant that same RIGHT to everyone else.
But people like you, who are NOT scientists...
Are you a scientist? Specifically, are you an Atmospheric Climatologist? If so, I will bow to your training, knowledge, and experience. If not, your argument serves no greater purpose than mine. You Google-up links to support your point-of-view, and I do the same. So what is your point? I have the right to express my opinion about this the same as you. Your view leads to continued complacency. Mine might get people off their ass to try to do something about it (although I still contend it is probably too late). Your view is the intellectual and philosophical equivalent of sticking one's head in the sand. "Don't worry about it. Everything is going to be ok. This is all normal and natural."
You and others like you are exactly the reason why we are going down!!!
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God I hope you're right about that Zen.
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That's a great article. Betsy ought to read it.
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Have you seen this article?
Here is an excerpt:
So why deny this particular thing? Why deny that global warming is caused by humans? And here, I think you've got to look at deep seated moral intuitions that differs from left to right. And it's important to note at the outset that whatever your moral intuitions are, they push you emotionally to reason in a particular direction long before you are actually consciously thinking about it.
So, conservatives tend to be "individualists"-- meaning, essentially, that they prize a system in which government leaves you alone -- and "hierarchs," meaning, they are supportive of various types of inequality.
The individualist is threatened by global warming, deeply threatened, because it means that markets have failed and governments -- including global governments -- have to step in to fix the problem. And some individualists are so threatened by this reality that they even spin out conspiracy theories, arguing that all the world's scientists are in a cabal with, like, the UN, to make up phony science so they can crash economies.
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Already read it. You really should read what The SCIENTIST himself wrote about his "conversion" rather than just the cherry picked stuff the article he likes to link to talks about. Seems Zen likes the opinion of the reporter MORE than the opinion of the actual scientist. :
"It’s a scientist’s duty to be properly skeptical. I still find that much, if not most, of what is attributed to climate change is speculative, exaggerated or just plain wrong. I’ve analyzed some of the most alarmist claims, and my skepticism about them hasn’t changed."
"Hurricane Katrina cannot be attributed to global warming. The number of hurricanes hitting the United States has been going down, not up; likewise for intense tornadoes. Polar bears aren’t dying from receding ice, and the Himalayan glaciers aren’t going to melt by 2035. And it’s possible that we are currently no warmer than we were a thousand years ago, during the “Medieval Warm Period” or “Medieval Optimum,” an interval of warm conditions known from historical records and indirect evidence like tree rings. And the recent warm spell in the United States happens to be more than offset by cooling elsewhere in the world, so its link to “global” warming is weaker than tenuous."
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/30/opinion/the-conversion-of-a-climate-change-skeptic.html?pagewanted=2&_r=5pagewanted=all
ZenDog (and you) only wants to point out the stuff the guy says that he LIKES and agrees with, but chooses to ignore the stuff he says that he doesn't like. Stuff about alarmist claims STILL being speculative, exaggerated, or just plain wrong and how he is STILL skeptical about them.
But YOU nailed him Underdog when you said earlier that people are motivated by emotion rather than logic, rationality and/or facts! Good call.
What is the point of your argument? Can you define it precisely? The point of Zen's article is that yet another formerly naysayer scientist has accepted the overwhelming evidence regarding global warming.
Look again:
=========
WASHINGTON – The verdict is in: Global warming is occurring and emissions of greenhouse gases caused by human activity are the main cause.
This, according to Richard A. Muller, professor of physics at UC Berkeley, MacArthur Fellow and co-founder of the Berkeley Earth Surface Temperature project. Never mind that the United Nations Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change and hundreds of other climatologists around the world came to such conclusions years ago. The difference now is the source: Muller is a long-standing, colorful critic of prevailing climate science, and the Berkeley project was heavily funded by the Charles Koch Charitable Foundation, which, along with its libertarian petrochemical billionaire founder Charles G. Koch, has a considerable history of backing groups that deny climate change.
In an opinion piece in Saturday’s New York Times titled “The Conversion of a Climate-Change Skeptic,” Muller writes: “Three years ago I identified problems in previous climate studies that, in my mind, threw doubt on the very existence of global warming. Last year, following an intensive research effort involving a dozen scientists, I concluded that global warming was real and that the prior estimates of the rate of warming were correct. I’m now going a step further: Humans are almost entirely the cause.”
==========
So the above is another nail in the coffin.
But let's look at this argument that you, Zen, and I have been having from a purely logical point of view. Let us assume, purely for the sake of argument, that the cause of global warming is not totally known and, in fact, is totally up for debate, as has been happening with you and I (the fact that it IS known and is NOT open for debate will be temporarily ignored for the sake of the argument I will be making).
Which point of view, if practically adopted, has the greatest survival value for life on this planet? Logically, the view you are espousing leads to complacency and apathy because the conclusion (and reality) that human activity is the overwhelming cause of global warming is downplayed at best, and denied at worst. As a result, efforts to do something about it are not emphasized by industry, governments, and populations. But, logically, the view that Zen and I have should lead, in theory, to some type of action on the part of industry, governments, and populations (even if it doesn't in the real-world...this is purely for the sake of argument). If Zen and I were wrong, and global warming were, in fact, nothing to worry about, nothing is lost except some time and effort trying to correct a problem that, ultimately, was not a problem. BUT, if it turns out that global warming IS real and caused by humans (as Zen's article says), then downplay and denial leads to doing nothing and adopting a "wait and see" approach. But that approach is totally illogical, because if the threat to planetary life is REAL, and nothing is done because there "isn't enough correlated data", etc. then foolishness and shortsightedness on the part of humanity has prevailed (again) and we are done for.
SUMMARY:
1) Global Warming not real, therefore, do nothing = No threat to planetary life
2) Global Warming not real, but do something about perceived threat anyway = A waste of effort, but given the possible consequences if wrong, the prudent thing to do from survival standpoint
3) Global Warming real and efforts taken to reverse it = survival of planetary life possible, but not guarenteed
4) Global Warming real, but denied and downplayed by sufficent number of industries, governments and populations, so nothing is done, so result = another planet Venus.
Logically. the above are the 4 possible options that could be chosen. Which one, from a purely prudent and cautious standpoint, makes the most sense to adopt?
Beers at six at the pub.
BetsyRoss is a troll.
Nice work on the convincing thing, ol' mate.
You've won me.
Those that deny the reality of global warming are really hard for me to fathom. Do you have any insight as to why they deny it? Apparently they are a huge segment of the population (I am not talking about those that deny it for sinister capitalistic reasons like the Kochs).
Oops. I may have just answered my own question here.
Actually, your mention of the Kochs is important, because those criminal arseholes are responsible for (paying for) the propaganda campaign that constantly labels naysayers as hippies and treehuggers and lesbians and poofters et al. You get the drift.
Those that LIE about others and what they actually believe are by your own definition irrational and ape brained. Logic would dictate that you being an ape-brained nutjob is the most likely reason why I continue to be so hard for you to fathom.
Its too bad you convinced me that ALL people have ape brains that only respond to emotion and fear instead of logic and reason, and ignore facts that don't fit in with their beliefs.
You just keep displaying your ape brain OK? Especially how you ignored AGAIN the fact that I have stated at least 6 times in this thread that I believe the earth is warming (apparently ahead of Dr. Sceptic-Convert on that one) AND that humans do/are impacting that warming (also ahead of the good professor) BUT that I believe the most logical, intelligent response is to better understand ALL the factors at play in the atmosphere BEFORE we go attempting to AFFECT it AGAIN!
For example lets say we remove some CO2 and we end up starting a feedback loop sequence in the atmosphere, which triggers one in the oceans and they cause temperatures to drop in the future by MORE than we raised them? Does THAT consequence for our children and this planet bother you? Does the fact that we could be responsible for even MORE "unnatural temperature changes" phase you at all or does your ape brain think that the environment is like some sort of "way back machine" and all we have to do is go back to what existed 100 years ago and its problem solved??
You just keep displaying your ape brain...
What else can I display? What else can you display? Do you deny our evolutionary origins? Do you deny that people respond emotionally and not rationally most of the time? Do you actually believe that most of what is argued by humans are rational arguments and not defensive rationalizations designed to support fragile egos based upon beliefs and suppositions?
Read this article for further insight into how/why the conservative mind operates as it does.
And, btw, if we waited to get all the data that you want to get before any action were taken we would surely be completely screwed. This is not a situation where people can take a "wait and see" attitude about things. Sometimes caution is warrented and, in most instances, is the prudent thing. But this is not one of those instances. All the climatologists have been up in arms about it for decades now. The human race cannot afford to take your approach. It would be collective suicide to wait like you want to do. Action to attempt to reverse the impact of global warming must be taken NOW!!!
You linked me to an article posted on the Huffington Post as a defensive rationalization designed to support your fragile ego based beliefs and suppositions. Clearly your arguments cannot be trusted if by some freak of nature someone DID come along that WAS rational and fact based.
Good luck with that.
Your replies wouldn't change if I WAS a scientist! I've given you scientific links to scientific findings and you don't even give them a moment of thought, let alone bow to them. The things you bow to are opinions that match your own, and sometimes don't come from actual practicing scientists.
YOU want to believe "we are going DOWN", when the science community is only willing to say that if things continue, we COULD go down. Your so concerned about the environment, and yet you just went on a cruise! What is the carbon footprint for one of those? You and others like you, who say one thing and do another are exactly the reason why a lot of people ignore your hysterics.
The things you bow to are opinions that match your own...
And yours do not? Have you been elevated to godhood? Are you the new Saint Betsy? GET REAL!!! ALL people believe whatever they want to believe regardless of the degree of fact or fiction that exists to support it. That is the living absurdity of which human populations are afflicted. Have you not lived on the planet long enough to know how people are wired up?
Go preach your self-righteousness somewhere else. I am done with you.
And, btw, whether or not I went on that cruise or not would not have reduced the carbon footprint that was belched into the atmosphere by one molecule. So you are completely illogical and now guilty of logical fallacies (that I'll overlook in your desperate attempt to win an argument).
"ALL people believe whatever they want to believe regardless of the degree of fact or fiction that exists to support it."
Wow. Did you just pass judgment on "all people" ? Very vain. Very godlike. Facts do not matter at all to anyone!
Despite your desire to believe otherwise, the majority of the population is NOT rational, and they ignore facts ALL the time. Politicians know this and use it to win elections. World religions confirm this as well. People are walking contradictions, and it is not difficult to prove this as has been done by psychologists time after time in study after study. Our ape brains are this strange mixture of emotion, logic, assumptions, beliefs, and absurd notions. These are the facts regarding populations. I didn't make up these facts. Since you appear to worship facts, just check them out here.
First you say ALL are irrational. Now you say the majority are irrational. Which is it? If they are irrational, why on earth do you think you have the ability to "get them off their asses"? Your posts here are perfect examples of walking (or at least typing) contradictions.
People are driven to "get off their asses" by fear...one of the deepest and strongest of emotions. Rationality doesn't have anything to do with getting people motivated. Emotions are what motivate people, not logic or rationality. So any appeal to getting people off the couch can't be made rationally or logically. People have to see how they are personally going to be impacted in a negative way. Then they act.
But sometimes they wait until it is too late. By the time they wake up, it is already over.
So you're a fear monger. Nice. Fear also paralyzes people. Ask the mental health scientists.
Problem with your theory is that the majority of people aren't buying into your fear campaign. Since you claim them to be so predictable, why is that?
I am not a "fear monger". You are the worshiper of facts (as you see them). I merely pointed out that people are not driven by facts, but emotions. Go back and look at the thread. You are getting off on all kinds of side-street discussions looking for any way possible to defeat me in debate.
You will fail, as I am not interested in debate. In proof of this, our "discussion" is ended.
Reality sux. Lap it up.
Nothing??? You mean like 100 of millions of years of volcanoes...spewing trillions of tons of toxic ash. Volcanoes beneath the sea, spewing toxic sulpher into the oceans. Gas and oil spills occurring naturally. Forest fires burning millions upon millions of acres of trees. Earthquakes,... Try watching "How the Earth was formed" asshole.
You mean stuff like that. Go fuck yourself professor. Man cannot harm this planet. Get over your greatness
http://occupywallst.org/forum/global-warming-my-wife-and-my-epiphany/#comment-828543
http://occupywallst.org/forum/global-warming-my-wife-and-my-epiphany/#comment-828543
"Man cannot harm this planet" --- REALLY ?!!!
minima maxima sunt ...
A life ending meteor, that covered the planet in dust for centuries couldn't do it asshole. But, somehow moronic liberals think cow farting can.
Please stop being such an (x) . Thanx .
But you ARE against pollution right?
I've been arguing with "factsrfun" in another doomsday thread in which he called ME a liar for quoting actual scientists and studies!! I even provided links to three websites-
One from an oceanic TEXTBOOK, one from the US National Academy of Science, and one from Science Daily discussing a study done by the Danish National Research Foundation for Geogenetics at the University of Copenhagen!!
From the TEXTBOOK- • “ Many times during the last ice age, temperatures near Greenland warmed rapidly over periods of 1-100 years, followed by gradual cooling over longer periods (Dansgaard et al., 1993). For example, roughly 11,500 years ago, temperatures over Greenland warmed by roughly 8°C in 40 years in three steps, each spanning 5 years (Alley, 2000). Such abrupt warming is called a Dansgaard/Oeschger event. Other studies have shown that much of the northern hemisphere warmed and cooled in phase with temperatures calculated from the ice core.”
• “The climate of the past 8,000 years was constant with very little variability. Our perception of climate change is thus based on highly unusual circumstances. All of recorded history has been during a period of warm and stable climate.”
From the National Academy of Science-“Ice-Core evidence of abrupt climate changes”-
“For the best-characterized warming, the end of the Younger Dryas cold interval ≈11,500 years ago, the transition in many ice-core variables was achieved in three steps, each spanning ≈5 years and in total covering ≈40 years. However, most of the change occurred in the middle of these steps. The warming as recorded in gas isotopes occurred in decades or less.”
From the Copenhagen study-
‘Regarding the research results, Funder says, "Our studies show that there have been large fluctuations in the amount of summer sea ice during the last 10,000 years. During the so-called Holocene Climate Optimum, from approximately 8000 to 5000 years ago, when the temperatures were somewhat warmer than today, there was significantly less sea ice in the Arctic Ocean, probably less than 50% of the summer 2007 coverage, which was absolutely lowest on record. Our studies also show that when the ice disappears in one area, it may accumulate in another. We have discovered this by comparing our results with observations from northern Canada. While the amount of sea ice decreased in northern Greenland, it increased in Canada. This is probably due to changes in the prevailing wind systems. This factor has not been sufficiently taken into account when forecasting the imminent disappearance of sea ice in the Arctic Ocean."’
But hey-all those scientists who prove all the stuff they DO NOT WANT to hear (which is sooooooo warped if what you really wanted to hear is some GOOD news that we might NOT be killing our planet after all!!!) are simply written off as "bullshit" and "liars".
They just want to BE "right", they don't want to know ALL the facts available first. And they certainly don't want to see anything that might cast doubt on their own twisted version of "dogma" based on theories and suppositions. If that happened-they'd look as foolish as they try to make other people who believe in other things look! The horror!
This article was published in Rolling Stone, (not a scientifically reviewed or accepted source by the scientific community) written by a man how has a degree in JOURNALISM-not science-of any kind or any sort-who has made millions selling his opinions to the public who share his agenda.
In this article the JOURNALIST/ACTIVIST author quoted a scientist-James Hansen-who has been committing climate fraud for YEARS and taking money for it-and is under investigation by the FBI and others...
http://johnosullivan.wordpress.com/2012/05/20/top-scientists-vent-on-nasas-sub-prime-greenhouse-gas-hoaxere-optional/
And yet people in this forum TRUST what this article says SO MUCH that they are willing to let Underdog's entire view of the world, life, his spouse completely rot out underneath him because it increases the number on "their side" of the argument by one more point.
O.M.G.
So much for actual science and fact and getting the complete truth rather than clinging to an agenda/dogma/rhetoric just so people will think you're some kind of hero for the planet.
wow. just. wow.
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ZenDog-
I always take statements made by activists and journalists to be just that-statements, rather than embracing them as "facts". Only two of the quotes you used to defend your point came from scientists-and neither one of them has a degree in Atmospheric science. I give McKibben about as much credibility as I give Limbaugh when it comes to climate science.
The best way to determine what any given, real, fact means and assign it a proper amount of importance is to put that fact into perspective relative to all of the other facts it is related to. One of the standard truths of science is that correlation does not imply causation. Even worse is to believe that correlation PROVES causation.
Temperatures are wamer. C02 in the atmosphere is higher. Those are correlated facts. All of the CO2 in the atmosphere is NOT man made/caused and all of the temperature increases are man caused. Also fact.
Highest temperatures on record can and should only be compared to the other temperatures within that record. Taking the "modern historical records" of the past 150-200 years and claiming that they represent an accurate picture of earth's averages, is not science. It is stupidity.
There ARE those who want to manipulate society into some kind of "panic" or "sense of urgency" to save the planet because they think they are doing a good thing because their intentions are noble-saving the planet. BUT what they fail to consider is human nature, and post after post here detail how selfish and self centered and self absorbed our society has become right? What if all of those self absorbed people start to think like Underdog currently is-that we're doomed and there is no escape? That would mean that they understand they've got nothing left to lose right? People who have nothing left to lose are willing to do things that will have far more destructive and frightening impact on others than any degree of global warming might. Just a thought for those who cry "it's over" to think about...
In order to find out if "modern historical temperatures" are really out of whack and indicate that we are headed for certain destruction, the only honest AND scientific thing to do is to compare them to the ever growing geological record being constructed from physical evidence such as ice cores and deep ocean cores etc going back tens of thousands of years.
For years now, the physical evidence being collected and studied is starting to paint a very SOLID and FACT based (not model prediction based) record that shows an atmosphere that is extremely varied and that HAS changed drastically AND quickly-in less than 100 year time frames-on it's own-many times.
http://oceanworld.tamu.edu/resources/oceanography-book/abruptclimatechange.htm
This does not mean human activity is NOT playing a role in current changes. It means that we need to determine HOW MUCH of a role our activity causes before we go all "end of the world" nuts about it.
FACTS to consider-
"According the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, only 12 tornadoes touched down in the United States during July 2012, shattering the previous July record low of 42 tornadoes recorded in 1960."
I could write an article titled "Tornadoes Reach Record Low" and say that the increase in man made CO2 has caused a decrease in tornado activity because they both occurred in the same 60 year period. You'd be perfectly right to call it junk science and give me no credibility. Try to apply that criteria to everything else as well.
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Do you have a problem reading or is it that you just "can't be bothered" to read anything that doesn't agree with your point of view? Is it hard to carry that much bias around all the time?
Where did I DENY that the ice cap is shrinking? IT IS. ICE isn't STATIC you moron. But YOU prefer to believe that since the last ice age that no ice ever, EVER shrank, EVER...until the Industrial Age??? Ask the ice core specialists to explain it to you ok?
I've BEEN to Glacier National Park. I took a tour. And you know what? The Park Ranger told me the exact same thing that the GNP website says!!!! The REASON Glacier National Park looks like it does today is because glaciers and snow have been MELTING and REFREEZING for THOUSANDS OF YEARS-carving out the deep bowls and steep ravines we can see today.
And all those bowls and ravines were THERE thousands of years ago!!! According to their own freaking home page!:
"Ten thousand years ago, the topography of Glacier looked much the same as it does today." BUT "Before that, enough ice covered the Northern Hemisphere to lower sea levels 300 feet. In places near the park, ice was a mile deep."
Got that? Where the hell did all that topography come from ten thousand years ago if WE are responsible for every single melting glacier that ever melted! THE TRUTH -which you are in denial of-is that if you'd been looking "outside your OWN goddamned door" for the past 10,000 years, you would have been watching ICE and GLACIERS and SNOW melt and recede the whole freaking time.
Perhaps if you would have talked to the Park Ranger a little longer as I did, you would know that the glaciers in Montana's Glacier Park are receding, and diasapppearing at an unprecedented rate. One hundred years ago, there were 150 glaciers in that park. Today there are only 25 left, and many of them are only remnants of what they used to be. It is predicted that the park will be glacier-free by the year 2030, if not sooner. You may also want to visit Mendenhall Glacier in Juneau AK which is retreating rapidly, and where they have markers set up, as to where the glacier was 10, 20, and 30 years ago. Odin
http://articles.cnn.com/2010-10-06/world/montana.glaciers.climate_1_glaciers-mountain-ecosystems-climate-change?_s=PM:WORLD
Unprecedented when viewed over the past 100 years correct. Yes.
From the 2011 report- Understanding Earth’s Deep Past-National Academies Press:
Pg. 148- "The paleoclimate record contains facts that are surprising to most people. For example, there have been times when the poles were forested rather than being icebound; there were times when the polar seas were warm; and there were times when tropical forests grew at mid-latitudes. For the majority of Earth’s history, the planet has been in a greenhouse state rather than in the current icehouse state."
http://www.nap.edu/catalog.php?record_id=13111
Yeah they're melting. Is that melting increasing? Yep. BUT, the current "icehouse state" in which we live, is NOT how the "majority of Earth's history" has been. So acting like the ice/glaciers on the planet even 100-150 years ago are the "norm" and that the warmer temperatures we have today are ABNORMAL ATROCITIES is to live in denial of scientific paleoclimate FACTS.
Yes all these glaciers have melted off in the last hundred years. These glaciers were there for thousands and thousands of years. I do get the feeling that no matter how much evidence that I google up, you would not change your mind on global warming being a real and honest threat to our well being. Perhaps one day when your favorite vacation spot on the beach becomes uninhabitable you will then realize the truth.
No matter how many times I say that I DO believe the globe is warming, and no matter how much evidence I present that proves that the globe has warmed, been warmer, and that ice has melted, and at one point NEVER WAS THERE you would not change your mind.
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You see, I DID read the memo. The ENTIRE memo. The Koch brothers, who are often lied about and vilified by their opponents actually WANTED to know more about climate research and gave Berkley a HUGE amount of money to do it.
The study was done on SURFACE temperatures. The lead professor ignored the peer review process and went public with his conclusions and the atmospheric science community is now openly criticizing both his ego and his research in the public arena.
I say GOOD-the science community is embroiled in corruption and fraud and maybe it should ALL be reviewed by the public and kept in the open to keep them honest.
And good boy. You posted another article about temperatures "on record" in a given time frame. I've already covered the importance of looking at only a brief time frame in the grand scale of history and making conclusions based upon that time frame only.
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That's even better. But it's NOT a 350,000 year record of the average surface temperatures (what the Koch brother funded research was)...it's a 350,000 year record of Arctic temperatures. But since you brought it up...
Notice how the CO2 levels AND the temperature increases on the graph show HUGE fluctuations in both CO2 levels and temperatures? Now, tell me, how many of those big spikes on that graph were influenced by human beings...
Now if you'd lived at any number of points on that graph, you might see the temperatures dropping rapidly, or rising rapidly and be concerned because you thought that what had happened 100-200 years PRIOR to your existence was how things ALWAYS were-and were supposed to STAY.
You might have "looked out the window" of your cave and said "Og see lot more snow when Og baby. Og see very little snow now Og man. Og scared". More likely you would have said "What all this white stuff on ground...no here when Og baby".
Of course, I MUST point out that according to the graph, temperatures are NOT as high today as they are shown to have been in the past, and...they should be HOTTER than they are since the C02 levels shown have continued to increase but the temperature has not....
Here's a quote from a paper written by all kinds of science experts on a fabulous website called National Academies Press: (You should be all over this site...talk about a cache of scientific research and experts!) "Understanding Earth's Deep Past-2011"
http://www.nap.edu/catalog.php?record_id=13111
Pg. 148- "The paleoclimate record contains facts that are surprising to most people. For example, there have been times when the poles were forested rather than being icebound; there were times when the polar seas were warm; and there were times when tropical forests grew at mid-latitudes. For the majority of Earth’s history, the planet has been in a greenhouse state rather than in the current icehouse state."
What scientists call the "modern climate" is in fact NOT how the Earth's climate has been the majority of the time it has existed. We're coming out of an ICEHOUSE state....of course things are warming up and things are melting. Are we speeding up that warming? Yep. Do scientists know exactly what will happen because of that? Nope. They're doing their best to pin that down...but they all admit that it's complicated and that all they can do now is make predictions.
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carbon dioxide
What is known? What is provable?
Your cries that the world is ending are based on PROJECTIONS-ESTIMATIONS-which are the result of FLAWED computer models that the scientists THEMSELVES will tell you NEED to be corrected as we learn more.
And my eyesight shows the carbon headed up and the temperatures leveling off.....what's up with that?
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No. YOU are denying what I'm saying. It's getting warmer. And humans are contributing to that warming. Got it?
I'm also saying it's been warm-warmer even-before it got colder. And the world kept right in spinning.
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Still butting Heads with Bitsy? I have to applaud. I don't have that kinda patience. The world has been warmer - but it just keeps on spinning. What a block head.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z685n4RMx6Y&feature=player_embedded
Here's a little video for you to watch too.
And another- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vN06JSi-SW8&feature=related
And this one by a Nobel Laureate in 2012- http://www.mediatheque.lindau-nobel.org/#/Video?id=1410
Now, you don't have to LIKE or AGREE with these scientists. But you DO have to deal with the science and the data used if you want to change people's minds to your point of view. Below I post even more recent studies that contain even more evidence.
More work by McKibben? The NON-scientist?
Here's more work by REAL scientists and studies recently published about tree ring study- http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/07/10/global_warming_undermined_by_study_of_climate_change/
"A new study measuring temperatures over the past two millennia has concluded that in fact the temperatures seen in the last decade are far from being the hottest in history."
"A large team of scientists making a comprehensive study of data from tree rings say that in fact global temperatures have been on a falling trend for the past 2,000 years and they have often been noticeably higher than they are today - despite the absence of any significant amounts of human-released carbon dioxide in the atmosphere back then."
"We found that previous estimates of historical temperatures during the Roman era and the Middle Ages were too low," says Professor-Doktor Jan Esper of the Johannes Gutenberg-Universität Mainz, one of the scientists leading the study. "Such findings are also significant with regard to climate policy."
"According to the scientists' new paper, published in hefty climate journal Nature Climate Change, the cooling effect of orbital shifting on the climate has been up to four times as powerful as anthropogenic (human-caused) warming pressures"
Link to graph- http://iceagenow.info/2012/07/finding-earth-cooling-2000-years/warmer_in_the_past/
Another article different scientists-ice core study: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/03/23/warm_period_little_ice_age_global/
"Lu and his colleagues' new work, however, indicates that in fact the medieval warm period and little ice age were both felt right down to Antarctica."
“We showed that the Northern European climate events influenced climate conditions in Antarctica,” says the prof, who was at Oxford when most of the work was done but now has a position at Syracuse uni in the States. He and his colleagues write:
"This ikaite record qualitatively supports that both the Medieval Warm Period and Little Ice Age extended to the Antarctic Peninsula."
"In other words, global warming has already occurred in historical, pre-industrial times, and then gone away again. Lu et al's work is published in the peer-reviewed journal Earth and Planetary Science Letters. ®"
A paper published today in Palaeogeography, Palaeoclimatology, Palaeoecology finds that the Medieval Warming Period "was warmer than the late 20th century by ~1°C.
" The paper adds to the peer-reviewed publications of over 1000 scientists showing that the global Medieval Warming Period was warmer than the current warming period."
Graph showing number of Level 1 studies done proving the MWP was hotter than it is today.
http://www.co2science.org/data/mwp/quantitative.php
Graph showing how many Level 2 studies have been done that prove that the Medieval Warm Period (MWP) was WARMER than current warming period (CWP) as compared to studies that show either the same as, or colder than today.
http://www.co2science.org/data/mwp/qualitative.php
List of HUNDREDS of scientists whose work they cite.
http://www.co2science.org/data/mwp/scientists.php
Got that? The PEER REVIEWED work of over 1,000 scientists indicates that the temperatures of the last decade are "FAR from being the hottest in history" and "despite the absence of any significant amounts of human-released carbon dioxide in the atmosphere back then."
Scientists-1,000 vs Bill McKibben-0
The more crap you post from UNscientific sources, and non peer reviewed sources, the more actual published studies I'll post here.
global warming is not theory , it is recorded
How about "climate change", is it a theory?
I have never said that global warming is a theory. Never. Re-read my posts.
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I'm not slowing any progress that I know of.
Why would you assume that anyone pays me for my opinion? Does someone pay you for yours?
Show me ONE person, or ONE group of people that has EVER "convinced everyone" to do anything? If you or anyone else is squandering whatever time you have on this planet that's your OWN DAMN CHOICE.
What is odd is that all your paranoid rantings here haven't changed the world's atmosphere one damn bit. But you just keep being "pro-active" like that ok?
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*We must all obey the great law of change. It is the most powerful law of nature, and the means perhaps of its conservation.
*No passion so effectually robs the mind of all its powers of acting and reasoning as fear.
*He who wrestles with us strengthens our nerves and sharpens our skill. Our antagonist is our helper.
All from Edmund Burke
PS...I liked your second one...I REFUSE to give up my liberties for what I consider to be your delusions.
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I'm sorry....when did this become about the Republican party and not climate science?
Oh, and just because you or Al Gore say "The debate is over"-doesn't really make it over. You know that right?
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Siiiiiiiiiiiiiigh. The debate over the fact that the climate is changing is over. And I've told you repeatedly that I agree that is it changing/warming.
The debate over how much it will and what all the factors are and what to do about it in the future is not.
never read it
tri-atomic molecules like CO2 have a greater capacity to absorb heat because they are more complex than diatomic molecules
because the can have greater degrees disorder
Ok, then here's one from Scientific American. is that good enough for ya?
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=global-warming-truth----the-world-i-2011-11
I'm sorry...that's an article written by someone who is NOT an atmospheric scientist. If you want to rebut my arguments that contain scientific data/facts-you'll need to use scientific data/facts.
I have NEVER said that global warming is not happening. I have NEVER said that human beings have not contributed to that warming. All attempts to respond to me as if I HAVE made such a statement are just dishonest and deceptive.
http://noconsensus.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/image0011.gif
http://noconsensus.wordpress.com/2010/04/19/radiative-physics-yes-co2-does-create-warming/
I agree with the blogger's assessment-"CO2 causes some warming."
(his words in the second link)
I was trying to post an image but couldn't
your wife works, what do you do?
You're not going to trap me into that bullshit discussion. I have been on this site a long time and have seen it all. I know your kind.
again, your wife works , what do you do? your answer wont be a discussion unles you choose it to be..
I am retired and/or unemployed depending on your point of view (my wife says the latter). I tried to find work after being layed off, but I am 57 and there is age discrimination to deal with. I would like to have an income again, but until the economy picks up and/or unemployment drops, that doesn't look likely. Hell, even young kids can't get a job these days because there aren't any.
the economy will pick up when romney is elected.
He will destroy the middle and lower classes and elevate the aristocracy to even greater levels in the socio-economic stratosphere.
and you know that because????????????????? by the way, thats what obama has been doing ever since hes been president.
The man is a puppet of the aristocracy, of which he is also a member. He does what they tell him to do. He will serve their agenda, and has proven his moral decadence during his years at Bain. I read.
http://www.realromneyrecord.com/
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So rather than listen to your wife, whom you will spend the rest of your days and should be the most important person you will know, you cry about global warming. You need help.
She reaches out to you but you blow her off. Forget global warming, real or imagined., build a life with you loved one.
I do love my wife, and we spend as much time together as possible. But we all have other responsibilities to each other; to that species known as homo sapiens (not to mention all the other life on the planet).
"Forget global warming, real or imagined"
You are INSANE!!!
I often feel that I am watching a puppet show with no real idea who is pulling the strings, but knowing the strings are being pulled. I also believe our only hope is if each individual becomes the change he/she wants to see. By that I mean do the hard things, like recycle, pay for the solar or wind power in your home, share with your neighbor -- maybe a neighborhood solar center? -- start at the individual level and work out. Become self-sufficient communities with local businesses. There could well come a time when we really do destroy a good part of the world with our weapons -- the people who remain, if they are lucky, will understand that cooperation is far more effective than competition.
My vision was strong and true. I am the prophet of doom. I am grounded in reality and know what people are. They are no damn good, selfish, stupid, and greedy.
We will cook ourselves in the carbon blanket until we are well-done, not medium-rare.
It is over. It is finished. Good night. The end.
Seems like if a smart man thinks his days are numbered, he spends them in the happiest, most fulfilling way possible. Seems a tad bit selfish, stupid, greedy, or no damn good to spend whatever time he has left bitching, moaning, crying, and being depressed. To me anyway.
You can say that I'm not smart. It doesn't matter. I don't really care about me. I am not a narcissist. But I am not an ostrich with my head in the sand. I am not in denial. What I say I say for future generations (if there are any). This has nothing to do with me.
ww know where your head is.
Interesting that you invoked the term narcissist. No one else here suggested such a condition for you...
BUT since you brought it up, only a narcissist thinks that their point of view, and theirs alone, is absolutely and completely true in the fact of evidence that proves otherwise. Narcissists also exaggerate, and tend to paint others in negative ways (such as "no damn good, selfish, stupid, and greedy") in order to make themselves feel better about their own faults. Narcissists often suffer from a type of martyr complex...just saying.
You are in denial when it comes to every other scientific FACT or data set that doesn't agree with YOUR "vision". Your head is clearly in the sand because all you see is darkness and dirt.
Learn the definition of words, my master.
Narcissism - inordinate fascination with oneself; excessive self-love; vanity.
Where have I indicated such? The fact that I hold a viewpoint (which is shared by millions, btw, and many, many respected scientists) that is contrary to yours , for some strange reason, really bothers you. WHY? Have you ever heard of the phrase "me thinks you protest too much"? If global warming were not a real and genuine concern, it would not have gotten all the exposure that it has over the last several decades. You can deny it all you want, but that doesn't change the reality.
While I agree with you about global climate change overall, I have to point out that this is a logical fallacy:
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-popularity.html
I am well aware of logical fallacies, and look for them all the time. But this is not a court of law where fallacies are used by oppossing attornies to try to win cases. Regardless of whether or not a logical fallacy is committed, if the reality is true, the fallacy is meaningless. I get a vision of two people sitting in an oven getting cooked to death arguing over who has or has not committed an error in reasoning. Seems kinda off the mark, doesn't it?
Just trying to help. I do agree with you about global climate change. And also your larger point about complacency.
Let's start with calling yourself a prophet. And a " rare and timeless realist". Then we can move on to you constantly ignoring my statements saying that I agree that the globe IS warming AND that I believe humans do play in it. Is that because you can't read? Or don't comprehend? You seem to have adequate skills with language...so I can reasonably assume that you do so because, as all readers here can attest, you have a rather exaggerated fondness for your personal visions of destruction. Hell, even Zendog who is known for his pessimism tried to throttle you back a little!
Oh, you might want to take a look at the clinical/scientific definition of for narcissism in personality disorders.
One more question-how does declaring that we are "done" and that our evolution is "over" inspire or encourage others to cut back, advocate, or care about the planet? If it's all over and too late-as you SAY it is, just exactly what would be the point of trying to stop it?
Then we can move on to you constantly ignoring my statements saying that I agree that the globe IS warming AND that I believe humans do play in it
Then wtf are you arguing with me about? You are backing off from your original assertions. You threw out all kinds of links in support of global warming not being artificially induced by humans. Now you are reversing course. Well, it's good that you can still learn, but now an open admission of your previous error would be warrented and appreciated.
To me, we are "done", since I have all of recorded history to observe human nature and how large numbers of populations and governments operate. If declaring we are "done" can be seen as shock treatment to try to get people off their ass in a last ditch effort to reverse course, then I will use that word. I am beyond pessimistic about it. To me it is certainty. But I am just one person, and one person can easily be proven wrong. I await to observe if that will happen in my lifetime. I seriously doubt it at this point, but I do hope that I am, in fact, proven wrong.
I realize that you have declared facts to be irrelevant to ALL people, but just in case you are wrong , "and one person can easily be proven wrong" (not sure how if facts don't matter to anyone...just working with your logic here)...I count at least 6 times starting two weeks ago, where I state clearly that I believe the globe is warming, and that I believe man has/is contributed to it, and that my point has always been putting mans influence into perspective relative to OTHER forces that also affect the climate according to ALL of recorded history.
For the sake of our kids, I would rather call her wrong and do my best to change the world for the better. My kids, your kids, our kids... will inherit our wrong doings.
Luckily my wife agrees with me and sees AGW as a serious threat to our future.
algore relies in the "useful idiots" like underdog to buy into his blather.
I wish I could be around to see the look on your face when you wake up and see it actually happening in a completely undeniable way. Global warming is an act of physical science. It is every bit as real as gravity. The data, which has been accumulating for decades, is now completely undeniable to anyone but those who have planted their heads so far up their asses they will never see the light of truth shining so brightly that it is sunburning their ass.
Why won't you be around to see it? If it's supposed to happen in the next 20 years you got as good a chance as any to watch it with us.
CLIMATE change is an act of physical science and it changes all the time. Global COOLING is every bit as real as GLOBAL warming is or don't you believe in the colder eras?
Seems to me that someone who has their head up their ass might think that according to their surroundings-everywhere else is just as WARM..when those whose heads aren't up their asses are aware that the temperatures all over the world have changed again and again...
ps...you DO know that gravity isn't a constant and that it varies in different circumstances which human beings have no influence on...right?
Gravity isn't a constant? What school did you go to...Creation Science University? Newton came up with the formula for it hundreds of years ago that stood until Einstein and is still used to send probes to other planets with astonishing accuracy. Gravity is totally dependent on mass. The greater the mass, the greater the gravity. What is your point? This post is about global warming.
Of course there have been periods in earth history where the earth has cooled. There is some evidence now to indicate, in fact, that it was once completely covered in ice ("snowball earth"). But the fact that there have been cycles doesn't mean that what we are seeing now is natural. In point of fact, there is tons of evidence that indicates that what we are seeing now has been artificially induced by humans. There is so much data now about it that it borders on the ridiculous.
That is exactly my point-the force of gravity is not constant. (http://www.nasa.gov/audience/foreducators/topnav/materials/listbytype/Different_Gravity.html)
The forces of climate change are not constant. There is TONS of evidence that indicates that this planet has ranged all over the place before we were even a factor on it AS WELL AS evidence indicating that we DO have an impact on it. (never said we don't) BUT I provided you with new, scientific study after study that proves that RAPID, SUDDEN, DRASTIC increases in temperature HAVE happened over and over again followed by periods of stability over and over again.
This doesn't prove that what we are seeing now is NATURAL, but it DOES prove that what we are seeing now HAS NATURALLY happened before.
you are what barnum spoke about " there's a sucker born every minute".
But realists are rare and their knowledge is timeless. Children deny reality and seek protection from it as they are incapable of comprehending it.
you just described the MSM and the rest of the dems.
This is not the place to campaign. If you cannot make your point without branding, obviously your argument is too weak for the daylight.
what are you talking about?
FLASH.... Man NOT causing global warming. FLASH... Global warming a hoax hatched by liberals as the biggest cash cow tax increase in the history of mankind. FLASH...you're an idiot for wasting one second worrying about nothing
FLASH...you don't know what science is. FLASH...you don't understand the laws of physics. FLASH...you might not care because perhaps you could be a Fundamentalist who believes Jesus is going to swoop down and take you away prior to the fulfillment of the Revelation horror tale.
Well, that was flashy and all, but as is often the case in a flash infested post, it's highly inaccurate, and totally uninformative.............
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=patagonian-glaciers-melting-in-a-hurry
It even has a history. One that's never been mentioned on FLAKESnews.
http://www.aip.org/history/climate/co2.htm/
Here's the one you really need to peruse.
http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2007/05/start-here/
Now, read all that and then get back to us in a month or two when you're done.
you right about global warming . its also the new religion of the left and its" useful idiots". it about control , fear, money and power by the perpetrators of the crap.