Today Liberty Plaza had a visit from Slavoj Zizek
Posted 13 years ago on Oct. 9, 2011, 6:04 p.m. EST by OccupyWallSt
Transcripts
Part One
…2008 financial crash more hard earned private property was destroyed than if all of us here were to be destroying it night and day for weeks. They tell you we are dreamers. The true dreamers are those who think things can go on indefinitely the way they are. We are not dreamers. We are awakening from a dream which is tuning into a nightmare. We are not destroying anything. We are only witnessing how the system is destroying itself. We all know the classic scenes from cartoons. The cart reaches a precipice. But it goes on walking. Ignoring the fact that there is nothing beneath. Only when it looks down and notices it, it falls down. This is what we are doing here. We are telling the guys there on Wall Street – Hey, look down! (cheering).
In April 2011, the Chinese government prohibited on TV and films and in novels all stories that contain alternate reality or time travel. This is a good sign for China. It means that people still dream about alternatives, so you have to prohibit this dream. Here we don’t think of prohibition. Because the ruling system has even suppressed our capacity to dream. Look at the movies that we see all the time. It’s easy to imagine the end of the world. An asteroid destroying all life and so on. But you cannot imagine the end of capitalism. So what are we doing here? Let me tell you a wonderful old joke from communist times.
A guy was sent from East Germany to work in Siberia. He knew his mail would be read by censors. So he told his friends: Let’s establish a code. If the letter you get from me is written in blue ink ,it is true what I said. If it is written in red ink, it is false. After a month his friends get a first letter. Everything is in blue. It says, this letter: everything is wonderful here. Stores are full of good food. Movie theaters show good films from the West. Apartments are large and luxurious. The only thing you cannot buy is red ink.
This is how we live. We have all the freedoms we want. But what we are missing is red ink. The language to articulate our non-freedom. The way we are taught to speak about freedom war and terrorism and so on falsifies freedom. And this is what you are doing here: You are giving all of us red ink.
There is a danger. Don’t fall in love with yourselves. We have a nice time here. But remember: carnivals come cheap. What matters is the day after. When we will have to return to normal life. Will there be any changes then. I don’t want you to remember these days, you know, like - oh, we were young, it was beautiful. Remember that our basic message is: We are allowed to think about alternatives. The rule is broken. We do not live in the best possible world. But there is a long road ahead. There are truly difficult questions that confront us. We know what we do not want. But what do we want? What social organization can replace capitalism? What type of new leaders do we want?
Remember: the problem is not corruption or greed. The problem is the system that pushes you to give up. Beware not only of the enemies. But also of false friends who are already working to dilute this process. In the same way you get coffee without caffeine, beer without alcohol, ice cream without fat. They will try to make this into a harmless moral protest. They think (??? unintelligible). But the reason we are here is that we have enough of the world where to recycle coke cans…
Part Two
….Starbucks cappuccino. Where 1% goes to the world’s starving children. It is enough to make us feel good. After outsourcing work and torture. After the marriage agencies are now outsourcing even our love life, daily.
Mic check
We can see that for a long time we allowed our political engagement also to be outsourced. We want it back. We are not communists. If communism means the system which collapsed in 1990, remember that today those communists are the most efficient ruthless capitalists. In China today we have capitalism which is even more dynamic than your American capitalism but doesn’t need democracy. Which means when you criticize capitalism, don’t allow yourselves to be blackmailed that you are against democracy. The marriage between democracy and capitalism is over.
The change is possible. So, what do we consider today possible? Just follow the media. On the one hand in technology and sexuality everything seems to be possible. You can travel to the moon. You can become immortal by biogenetics. You can have sex with animals or whatever. But look at the fields of society and economy. There almost everything is considered impossible. You want to raise taxes a little bit for the rich, they tell you it’s impossible, we lose competitivitiy. You want more money for healthcare: they tell you impossible, this means a totalitarian state. There is something wrong in the world where you are promised to be immortal but cannot spend a little bit more for health care. Maybe that ??? set our priorities straight here. We don’t want higher standards of living. We want better standards of living. The only sense in which we are communists is that we care for the commons. The commons of nature. The commons of what is privatized by intellectual property. The commons of biogenetics. For this and only for this we should fight.
Communism failed absolutely. But the problems of the commons are here. They are telling you we are not Americans here. But the conservative fundamentalists who claim they are really American have to be reminded of something. What is Christianity? It’s the Holy Spirit. What’s the Holy Spirit? It’s an egalitarian community of believers who are linked by love for each other. And who only have their own freedom and responsibility to do it. In this sense the Holy Spirit is here now. And down there on Wall Street there are pagans who are worshipping blasphemous idols. So all we need is patience. The only thing I’m afraid of is that we will someday just go home and then we will meet once a year, drinking beer, and nostalgically remembering what a nice time we had here. Promise ourselves that this will not be the case.
We know that people often desire something but do not really want it. Don’t be afraid to really want what you desire. Thank you very much!
Last Note
This is only a part of the entire speech he gave today, and if it was recorded in its entirety we'd be very glad to have a copy for transcription purposes.
(Thank you to everyone who offered transcripts, we had multiple offers)
Zizek's got it.
Our purpose isn't vague. Our only demand is that people think HARD about root causes of problems, not just symptoms! We don't need a movement to dictate answers, we need a movement to raise the right questions.
As soon as the majority is truly thinking HARD about root causes of problems -- asking the right questions -- this revolution will be a deep success. We have a long way to go.
Answers will never belong on banners. Answers should be called into question, forever. Spread the tough questions, everyone!
I completely 100% agree with everything you said except for "Zizek's got it". We need to be asking questions and discussing the root causes.. but i think its a stretch to say his overall theme deals with the root cause of much of anything.. everything he highlights is extremely vague and shallow. Roots are the opposite.. they go deep, they are strong and provide support..
his statement is not vague. his statement is that we do not have language to name and argue against the system of power, and that we must develop that language through practice and thought. This is a concept very much rooted in philosophy.
@nojoke His main points are not vague and shallow. He's trying to argue about why OWS so special and crucial. Here are the main points of each paragraph of his speech:
Paragraph 1) Sad to say, but the 1% has lots of supporters who think we are naive, and think any deep changes are unrealistic. But they ignore the problems caused by the 1%. So, when we raise tough questions ("Wall Street -- Hey, look down!"), we are the ones being practical.
P2) Supporters of the 1% think the way our world works today is the only realistic way it can work. They don't think any alternatives can be taken seriously. But while the Chinese government sees alternatives as threatening, here supporters of the 1% don't even see our questioning as legitimate. Even though we benefit from greater freedom of speech, it isn't doing much good if the majority simply dismisses us. So what can we do? (Spoiler: Zizek thinks OWS is the key.)
P3) Tells a joke and explains it in the next paragraph.
P4) The point of the joke: before this movement, we couldn't ask any questions that supporters of the 1% took seriously. So now, with a movement devoted to publicly, patiently asking tough questions, we're doing the impossible -- slowly making supporters of the 1% listen. Zizek says this is THE key that has been been missing! (i.e. the missing red ink.)
P5) We have to be in this for the long haul, to never quit thinking about alternatives and calling answers into question. We need the majority to think hard and critically about the question, "what do we want?" Because that's the only honest way for the majority to decide what they want. We've got a long way to go.
P6) Corruption and greed are major problems, but not root causes of why our system hasn't been fixed yet. It's not that people haven't tried before. Zizek suggests one possible cause: our system undermines every effort to question the 1%, by pressuring us to settle on premature political answers that stop the radical questioning process. This takes the punch out of our efforts (i.e. takes the "caffeine" from our "coffee").
P7) So, if the majority aren't thinking hard about what they want, then where do their supposed answers originate from? Phrased playfully, we have "outsourced" our "political engagement", an intimately personal questioning process, to political strategists who are squarely on the radar of the 1%. Also: asking tough questions about capitalism doesn't automatically make us communist, or anti-democracy.
P8) Technology changes the impossible into the possible all the time. Similarly, we can't claim to know everything that's impossible or possible for the economy and politics. This is hopeful. Instead of limitless possibilities for the 1% and tough breaks for the 99%, we need to consider resources and problems we all share in common.
P9) Many conservative Christians who support the 1% should look closely at their beliefs: funnily enough, some core Christian principles strongly evoke the struggle of the 99%. Also: we need to patiently struggle to keep questioning. Each of us personally thinking hard, yet also together publicly for the world to see -- not just for our private scrapbook of memories.
Zizek is always entertaining. He's not posing any vital questions or presenting a unified solution so he defiantly doesn't have "it" and anyone who thinks so won't be getting "it" anytime soon just by thinking about the "root causes". Awareness only qualifies action if you are actually acting and awareness is your own responsibility. Group awareness doesn't even require a consensus which is why I think groups like Anonymous were quick to dismiss any requests for demands. But, Zizek is right to point out the end of the carnival. What happens when it's all over? Are we going to look back at a "cheap carnival" or the beginning of a call to action?
The holy cow of postmodern bullshitism has joined the ranks of OWS. If you attract that catholic marxist asshole Eagleton, you're set!
With the passage of the USA Patriot Act, and the 2010 renewal of nearly all original provisions, the FBI, CIA, DOJ, and a plethora of other agencies have legal authority to do pretty much anything they choose. "Domestic terrorism" is covered as is conducting surveillance of "lone wolves" (individuals suspected of terrorist-related activities not linked to terrorist groups).
If it is decided someone falls under the provisions of this Act, pretty much nothing is inviolable. Nothing. The Patriot Act negates Constitutional rights that previously barred the most egregious actions an American citizen could imagine, including "roving wiretaps", "sneak and peek" which allows for delayed notification of the execution of search warrants, searching a home or business without the owner’s or the occupant’s permission or knowledge, and far, far more. Although the original powers were to be temporary, I fear those lost rights are irrecoverable.
Of particular interest are Title II, "Surveillance Procedures" and Title V, "Removing obstacles to investigating terrorism". But don't skip the others. The operating environment of the 1960's is just that - history. You may assume that every single post on this website, this page, and on all other left-leaning locations, and all social media is closely monitored, the poster tracked down, and who knows what from there.
Link to Wiki article is here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USA_PATRIOT_Act
(part 1)
[during the] 2008 financial crash more hard earned private was destroyed than if all of us here were to be destroying it night and day for weeks. they tell you we are dreamers, the true dreamers are those who think things can go on indefinitely the way they are.
we are not dreamers. we are the awakening from a dream that is turning into a nightmare. we are not destroying anything. we are only witnessing how the system is destroying itself.
we all know the classic scenes from cartoons. the coyote reaches a precipice, but it goes on walking, ignoring the fact that there is nothing beneath it. only when it looks down and notices it, it falls down. this is what we are doing here.
we are telling the guys there on wall street, hey, look down!
in april 2011, the chinese government prohibited, on tv, films and in novels, all stories all stores that contain alternate reality or time travel. this is a good sign for china. it means people still dream about alternatives. so you have to prohibit this dream. he were don't think of prohibition, because the ruling system has even oppressed our capacity to dream.
look at the movies we see all the time. it's easy to imagine the end of the world, an asteroid destroying all life and so on. but you cannot imagine the end of capitalism. so what are we doing here?
let me tell you a wonderful old joke from communist times. a guy was sent from east germany to work in siberia. he knew his mail would be read by censors, so he told his friends, lets establish a code. if a letter you get from me is written in blue ink, it is true what i say. if it is written in red ink, it is false. after a month his friends get a first letter. everything is in blue. it says: everything is wonderful here. stores are full of good food, movie theaters show good films from the west, apartments are large and luxurious, the only think you cannot buy is red ink. this is how we live -- we have all the freedoms we want, but what we are missing is red ink. the language to articulate our nonfreedom. the way we are taught to speak about freedom, war and terror and so on, falsifies freedom, and this is what you are doing here: you are giving all of us red ink.
there is a danger. don't fall in love with yourselves. we have a nice time here, but remember, carnivals come cheap. what matters is the day after. when we will have to return to normal life. will there be any chances then? I don't want you to remember these days like oh my god we were young it was beautiful". Remember that our basic message is: we are allowed to think about alternatives. The rule is broken. We do not live in the best possible world. But there is a long road ahead -- there are truly difficult questions that confront us. We know what we do not want. But what do we want? What social organization can replace capitalism? What type of new leaders do we want. Remember, the problem is not corruption of greed, the problem is the system. Beware not only of the enemies but also of false friends, who are already working to dilute this process, the same way you get coffee without caffeine, beer without alcohol, ice cream without fat. they will try to make this into a heartless moral protest, a decaffeinated process. but the reason we are here is that we've had enough of a world where to recycle coke cans or to italian starbucks cappuccino, where 1% goes to the world starving children is enough to make us feel good. after outsourcing work and torture, after marriage agencies are outsourcing our love life, we can see them for a long time. we allow our political engagement also to be outsourced. we want it back. we are not communists. if communism means the system, which collapsed in 19990. remember that today those communists are the most efficient ruthless capitalists. in china today, we have capitalism which is even more dynamic than your american capitalism. but it doesn't need democracy. which means, when you criticize capitalism, don't allow yourselves to be blackmailed that you are against democracy. the marriage between democracy and capitalism is over. the change is possible. what do we consider today possible? just follow the media. on the one hand, in technology and sexuality everything seems to be possible. you can travel to the moon, you can become immortal by biogenetical. you can have sex with animals or whatever. but look at the fields of society and economy. there almost everything is considered impossible. you want to raise taxes a little bit for the rich. they tell you it's impossible. we lose competitively. you want more money for healthcare? they tell you, impossible, this means a totalitarian state. is something wrong in a world where you are promised to be immortal, but you cannot spend a little bit more on healthcare. maybe we should set our priorities straight here. we don't want a higher standard of living -- we want a better standard of living. the only sense in which we are communists is that we care for the commons. the commons of nature, the commons of what is privatized by intellectual property. the commons of biogenetical, for this and only for this we should fight. communism failed absolutely, but the problems of the commons are here. they are telling you we are not americans here, but the conservative fundamentalists who claim they are really americans have to be reminded of something. what is christianity? it's the holy spirit. what is the holy spirit? it's an egalitarian community of believers who are linked by love for each other, and who only have their own freedom and responsibility to do it. in this sense, the holy spirit is here, now, and down there on wall street, there are pagans who are worshipping blasphemous idols. so all we need is patience. the only thing i'm afraid of, is that someday we will just go home, and we will meet once a year, drinking bear, and nostalgically remembering what a nice time we had here. promise ourselves that this will not be the case. you know that people often desire something but do not really want it. don't be afraid to really want what you desire. thank you very much.
Thank you, I completely missed it in the comments as people replied to our call on email as well. Thanks to everyone.
Love it! And there's another old joke from the communist era: The reason they close the bars on election day is so when you go to vote, you won't see two candidates instead of one. But hey, you know, I just noticed--most places here close the bars on election day, too! Could it be that they don't want us to see more alternatives than just one? Now here's the rest of the bad news: we're running out of red ink here--the accountants are buying it all up. You'll have to find a way to get your own, right there in the everyday world where we all live.
There's a book I'd like to recommend to everyone. It's not a heavy treatise on the this-ness of that, it's a simple, readable story about a tiny group of people who learned that, if things didn't change radically and soon, they and their friends would start starving to death within a couple of years. The story tells what they did about that, and why it worked. It's called The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress, by Robert A. Heinlein, and if your bookstore doesn't have it, your library will.
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That man sure knows how to speak. Props to him!
http://www.easymuaythai.com/
Yea, one of the best speakers I have heard in a long time.
Thanks from Clive @ http://easydiablo3.com/.
Demanding "answers" or an "expression of purpose" is a bourgeois conceit designed to categorize and marginalize OWS as entertainment, or at best, an attempt to absorb it into the system. Beware of the purse-lipped liberals and their desperate desire to dilute OWS; they will be among the first to call the police. The corporate state is edging toward panic and alarm because OWS lays bare the open secret that the media and other societal apparatus (schools, the two political parties) has tried to perfume and dress-up in glad rags: the market system is and always has been nefarious, unfair and exploitative. There's nothing broke about it. The system IS the problem. It's a shocking look in the mirror for too many in this country and they don't like OWS for that reason and that reason alone.
Demanding "answers" or an "expression of purpose" is a bourgeois conceit designed to categorize and marginalize OWS as entertainment, or at best, an attempt to absorb it into the system. Beware of the purse-lipped liberals and their desperate desire to dilute OWS; they will be among the first to call the police. The corporate state is edging toward panic and alarm because OWS lays bare the open secret that the media and other societal apparatus (schools, the two political parties) has tried to perfume and dress-up in glad rags: the market system is and always has been nefarious, unfair and exploitative. There's nothing broke about it. The system IS the problem. It's a shocking look in the mirror for too many in this country and they don't like OWS for that reason and that reason alone.
This is the best. Don't give up. The rich can wait us out. Zizek said: "...We don’t want higher standards of living. We want better standards of living. The only sense in which we are communists is that we care for the commons. The commons of nature. The commons of what is privatized by intellectual property. The commons of biogenetics. For this and only for this we should fight..." There is one way to put our common humanity to work building and Promoting the General Welfare. Take a look at one 'way' to raise our own capital and increase the GDP at the same time: www.promotethegeneralwelfare.com
Thank you.
Hi. Here's a version of Zizek's speech, mostly without the HUMAN MIC (except for dramatic effect):
http://youtu.be/liBjJPiglUk
One of the Best and most Suitable speech around !!! Zizek seems he is tuned best on the pulse of nowadays. Greetings from Greece!!! (Tuned on for a better world too!) Keep on Thinking and Protesting !!!
Clarity. What else needs to be said?
It would be wonderful if the readers and commenters here attempted to see the origin of Zizek's solidarity, and used that as a key to unlock his message. It would be wonderful if all readers and commenters here attempted to see the origin of all people's solidarity.
I am trying to do the same for those who use this space to say what they disagree with, believing no matter what that everyone here wants to live in fair and just world, and that this is true no matter what they say in these tiny paragraphs.
what a wonderfully encouraging statement for the plurality of beliefs represented by the OWS movement
Word up! Kill your TV! http://redroom.com/member/e-maria-shelton-speller/writing/queen
fuck you all
I do agree with some of your positions I don't agree with all of them. I commend you all for your desire and efforts
"On the one hand in technology and sexuality everything seems to be possible. You can travel to the moon. You can become immortal by biogenetics. You can have sex with animals or whatever. But look at the fields of society and economy. There almost everything is considered impossible."
WHAT A FREAK SHOW!!
"On the one hand in technology and sexuality everything seems to be possible. You can travel to the moon. You can become immortal by biogenetics. You can have sex with animals or whatever. But look at the fields of society and economy. There almost everything is considered impossible."
WHAT A FREAK SHOW!!
Hi! I have audio of the entire talk. I posted the part without questions here: http://www.mediacoop.ca/audio/%C5%BEi%C5%BEek-dont-be-afraid-really-want-what-you-desire/8370. I also have the entire question period, but haven't had time to clean it up yet. I've also been posting other interviews and audio at http://mediacoop.ca. Use anything you like!
Hey, what's up with blasting pagans? So now he's gonna turn this into a religious thing?? I have no problem with anyone's religion but if you want to go pointing fingers at a particular religion, I think your precious Christianity is one of the main culprits of furthering the oppression of the less fortunate. I'm on board with everything else.. but the people who live for the dollar bill at the exclusion of everything else are money mongers NOT pagans!
The Graham Leach Bliley Act of 1999 was written by three Republicans whose names adorn this act. Passed by senate and congress and signed by President Clinton. This effectively removed the barriers between banks and investment companies. This was long touted by the GOP as an act of Democratic origin which brought about the mortgage bonds supplied by banks to anyone who had a pulse and could sign their name, tranched and sold as derivitives to unsuspecting consumers who thought they were safe due to their AAA ratings by ratings agencies that did not think enough to question the underlying assets, namely, sub-prime mortgages. At first the premise was that housing prices could never fall (REALLY)? Then the banks, having run out of mortgages from folks with good credit kept stepping down the credit ladder to feed the gaping maw of demand, as they were making obscene amounts of money. Companies like Goldman Sachs sold the derivitives, made a profit, then turned around and bought credit default swaps (insurance) against the very products they just sold. Soon the market for CDS's took off, to the detriment of AIG who caught on too late. The game was evident early in the decade to a growing number of investors. All of this was legal and STILL is. Now the GOP, under pressure from their corporate donors and under the real fear of the future of their party, not only refuse to enact legislation to keep this from happening again, but are now calling for further deregulation in the guise of "creating jobs." Last I heard, "jobs" are a trailing economic indicator, not a leading one. It's time for Americans to wake up and realize that this economy is again on the brink. Major banks like BOA, Citibank, Chase and others are putting up a smoke screen and hiding their exposure to the trillions of bad debt they have on their books. We are heading for a recession that will dwarf what happened in 2008. Western Europe is in worse shape than we are and are trying furiously to control Greece's imminent default. Once that arrives, the dominoes will all start to fall leaving a ravaged world economy and an unemployment rate that will rival the great depression. It's over folks, grab a life vest while you can. So much for looking out for the best interest of the people. I'm disgusted and ashamed of our government. The only real solution is strict term limits and to cap the amounts that politicians can raise, eliminate corporate donations in any form. Corporations are NOT people, I don't care WHAT the supreme court ruled.Corporations represent their shareholders and are ruled by their board; therefore, they are not people, they are entities. Have we lost our minds? Where is the logic in that? Finally, let's allow each politician equal air time in a formal process. Bring back the uptick rule and the line item veto. That would be a good start...
I'd like to start by saying I'm an employee of the big banks, 30, student loans out the wazoo, etc. We're all frustrated, we all want to get ahead and pursue our dreams, that's what makes us human. But this wealth re-distribution thing? Ok you take all the 1%'s money, redistribute it, boom problem solved right? Hey guys, it's still Capitalism, the 1% who was smart enough to get to be the 1% will get back to that point, while a certain percentage of our society will then again fall behind because they're flawed as people. That cycle could repeat itself over and over if you wanted it to. So lets say we oust the 1% entirely! Ok so now part of the 99% moves up to the 1% to occupy their previous positions, and I'll be damned, the cycle's repeating itself again. I hate to sound cynical, but you're not going to protest your way into "the good life." You're going to have to work your ass off, plan accordingly, live below your means, and hope for the best, just like the 1% already has. Sorry folks but that's how the world works. The 99% is unfit to rule themselves (as evidenced by the streams of pointless rhetoric on this site) so there you have the 1%. It's call the Iron Law of Oligarchy, and I dont like it anymore than anyone else, but that's life. People have all the excuses in the world for why their own house of cards crumble at the same time of being masters of deflection on why it's someone else's fault. Sure it's easier to point the finger, but looking in the mirror takes someone far stronger. Put away the bongos and wake up to the real
I'd like to start by saying I'm an employee of the big banks, 30, student loans out the wazoo, etc. We're all frustrated, we all want to get ahead and pursue our dreams, that's what makes us human. But this wealth re-distribution thing? Ok you take all the 1%'s money, redistribute it, boom problem solved right? Hey guys, it's still Capitalism, the 1% who was smart enough to get to be the 1% will get back to that point, while a certain percentage of our society will then again fall behind because they're flawed as people. That cycle could repeat itself over and over if you wanted it to. So lets say we oust the 1% entirely! Ok so now part of the 99% moves up to the 1% to occupy their previous positions, and I'll be damned, the cycle's repeating itself again. I hate to sound cynical, but you're not going to protest your way into "the good life." You're going to have to work your ass off, plan accordingly, live below your means, and hope for the best, just like the 1% already has. Sorry folks but that's how the world works. The 99% is unfit to rule themselves (as evidenced by the streams of pointless rhetoric on this site) so there you have the 1%. It's call the Iron Law of Oligarchy, and I dont like it anymore than anyone else, but that's life. People have all the excuses in the world for why their own house of cards crumble at the same time of being masters of deflection on why it's someone else's fault. Sure it's easier to point the finger, but looking in the mirror takes someone far stronger. Put away the bongos and wake up to the real
You have a democratic right to protest. You also have a democratic right to work really hard and make a lot of money if you'd like.
Why want to limit the money some make? If someone has earned it legally, then its their right to keep it. Our forefathers fought for freedom from an intrusive government. No one is entitled to anything - you have to work for it.
You have a democratic right to protest. You also have a democratic right to work really hard and make a lot of money if you'd like.
Why want to limit the money some make? If someone has earned it legally, then its their right to keep it. Our forefathers fought for freedom from an intrusive government. No one is entitled to anything - you have to work for it.
I recommend rereading " Animal Farm" - mirrors Zizek's message about underlying REAL freedom. Here is the wiki plot summary link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_Farm Much Love to all
Hi, those of you who demonize China better realize: early this year, China's president Hu visited USA and signed several deals which increases 1/4 million jobs for USA. So, there is BIG differences between capitalism in China & USA, capitalism will NEVER be able to talk over the Communist Chinese gov. That's the point. Cummunist Chinese govenment is super strong, strongest in the world. Now, it offered helping hands to American ppl during this big mess.
I get it now! Thank you, I stand with you!!
I get it now! Thank you, I stand with you!!
Today Liberty park had a visit by the messiah and no one listened. (The messiah advocated eliminating money.)
Hello OWS, firstly, I wish you the very best. I also am completely against the damage that WS has caused to this country, its residents and the rest of the world. I'm also completely against the political power that corporations have in the US, it quite simply contradicts the principle of "of the people, by the people, for the people". Having said that, I also was born in a communist country and have visited more than one communist country in my life and I can assure you what I have seen firsthand is that communism is NOT the answer to our problems here in the US. Unless you have been to a communist country and can speak the local language so as to really immerse yourself in the reality of that place you might be enamored by the whole "concept" because it really does sound fair on paper. However, I can assure you that NOTHING sucks the drive, motivation and ultimately innovation out of a person and/or organization like KNOWING that all your effort (and any additional effort you might have considered investing) will not affect your compensation. I sincerely hope your movement is able to focus your messaging into something that Americans can easily digest. Otherwise I fear that you may not get the enduring traction you'll need to REALLY make a difference.
world is paying 80 trillion $ annual interest and its annual product is just 60 trillion $... to whom is the whole world working for? we must end all kinds of interest-based systems... money is not created to be sold... money can not be sold... if you have money make a real business or be a partner with someone who has a real business working for real things for humanity... earning by selling money is the root of all evils in this world... its the basics and cause of humanities slavery to just 1%.
the world needs "equalistic united humanity order" euho , we should start stopping all kind of interest in all world. interest is prohibited in all belief on the earth. we unite to stop interest based economic,social activities as humans and by this way we start destroying capitalism enslaving system over humanity. http://pic.twitter.com/wu5uH0C2
We have a same brands as you, same owners and same problem is Europe. We don't want "eattig, shopping & sleeping" lifestyle. Croatia stands solidarity with OWS!
We have a same brands as you, same owners and same problem is Europe. We don't want "eattig, shopping & sleeping" lifestyle. Croatia stands solidarity with OWS!
This movement has to come from the heart-not from anger.
Remember that like attracts like. Anger attracts anger, etc. Visualizing world peace, love and joy is the only thing that will make a difference. In history there have been times of peace, of complacency and of uprisings-but what has changed. Feel sorry for the greedy and the heartless for they have lost their way-their hearts. We are all brothers and sisters in this world and love-and only the focus on love will truly and forever change the world as we know it.
Can we please move past this sophomoric phase?? WHY is Zizek getting such attention, and being displayed as some sort of representative of the "99%" movement?? This "speech" likely alienated 40% (or more like 60% if you consider the FAILED "Holy Spirit" analogy can be extremely offensive) Enough with the metaphors and flowery speech.. How about REAL alternatives, and specific ideas. I'm not saying we all need to come to a consensus or offer a list of "demands" by any means.. I'm saying can we pick at least one out of the hundreds of faulty policies that have gotten us here and speak out against it? Highlight it? Mention it? MOST of us do not want to hear about communism versus capitalism, or broad ideologies, theories and arguments. (try counting the comments here about Thatcher and Marxism and Nietzsche.. cmon! get a clue!) This isnt a college ethics paper. this is real life.. There is NO theory, concept or system that has not been "discussed" thoroughly! Why use this NATIONAL stage to further these types of discussions? Not that discussions arent fantastic, but, we can skip theorizing and intellectualizing the past 100 years of economic and social systems and start speaking about TODAY.. what we can fix TODAY. REALISTICALLY! And this guy is NOT someone who should be representing the 99%! While he may have interesting thoughts, he also has made some very polarizing statements that is FAR FROM being representative of the majority. Until about 20 minutes ago I was 100% behind OWS, was looking forward to donating.. But the fact that this guy is being highlighted as some sort of important figure, makes OWS look like a stereotyped caricature of anti-business socialist, mod-hippies.. therefore my donation will remain in hand.. PLEASE dont ruin this for the REAL 99%!!
There are other transcripts available at:
http://www.versobooks.com/blogs/736-slavoj-zizek-at-occupy-wall-street-we-are-not-dreamers-we-are-the-awakening-from-a-dream-which-is-turning-into-a-nightmare
and
http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/3496710.html
PLease explain why you need to repeat what a speaker says like lemmings. I really do not understand the whole wiggling of fingers to approve of stuff. Wait can I block Now repeat after me Corporations are the ones who actually provide jobs. None of you losers hire anyone. Wait can I block go home and take a shower you all smell
I appreciate that Zizek spoke at and gave his support to the Occupation Movements, but I am also tired of Zizek courting the Left/Marxists while at the same time offering nothing specific whatsoever regarding alternative models to capitalism. Numerous times I have read/heard Zizek say that Communism was an "absolute failure," while at the same time constantly publishing books about Lenin and the "Communist Hypothesis" targeted towards Leftists, books without anything in the way of concrete suggestions for alternatives to capitalism. Really, it is getting very old very fast. In this speech he says "We are not Communists, if Communism means the system which deservedly collapsed in 1990—and remember that Communists who are still in power run today the most ruthless capitalism (in China). The success of Chinese Communist-run capitalism is an ominous sign that the marriage between capitalism and democracy is approaching a divorce. The only sense in which we are Communists is that we care for the commons—the commons of nature, of knowledge—which are threatened by the system." Boy, could you "vague" that up for me? There are concrete alternative models which can be examined and discussed, such as Parecon (Paticipatory Economics [ Michael Albert and Robin Hahnel]) and Economic Democracy ( David Schweickart). What about these? It is time we starting looking at concrete alternatives. For many of us we have LONG be aware that there are problems with the current system and that changes are needed. I know Zizek has said on many occasions that the job of the philosopher is to ask questions, not provide solutions. But if concrete solutions do not soon become an area for philosophical discussion, then philosophers like Zizek -- whose books I have been reading for over a decade -- will make themselves obsolete and irrelevant to the important movements and struggles ahead. Enough foreplay Mr. Zizek. A little less "red pen" and cartoon metaphors and a little more concrete suggestions regarding real, possible alternatives, otherwise I am going to begin thinking you are an opportunist flirting with the Left without really believing in real Leftist radical change.
I appreciate that Zizek spoke at and gave his support to the Occupation Movements, but I am also tired of Zizek courting the Left/Marxists while at the same time offering nothing specific whatsoever regarding alternative models to capitalism. Numerous times I have read/heard Zizek say that Communism was an "absolute failure," while at the same time constantly publishing books about Lenin and the "Communist Hypothesis" targeted towards Leftists, books without anything in the way of concrete suggestions for alternatives to capitalism. Really, it is getting very old very fast. In this speech he says "We are not Communists, if Communism means the system which deservedly collapsed in 1990—and remember that Communists who are still in power run today the most ruthless capitalism (in China). The success of Chinese Communist-run capitalism is an ominous sign that the marriage between capitalism and democracy is approaching a divorce. The only sense in which we are Communists is that we care for the commons—the commons of nature, of knowledge—which are threatened by the system." Boy, could you "vague" that up for me? There are concrete alternative models which can be examined and discussed, such as Parecon (Paticipatory Economics [ Michael Albert and Robin Hahnel]) and Economic Democracy ( David Schweickart). What about these? It is time we starting looking at concrete alternatives. For many of us we have LONG be aware that there are problems with the current system and that changes are needed. I know Zizek has said on many occasions that the job of the philosopher is to ask questions, not provide solutions. But if concrete solutions do not soon become an area for philosophical discussion, then philosophers like Zizek -- whose books I have been reading for over a decade -- will make themselves obsolete and irrelevant to the important movements and struggles ahead. Enough foreplay Mr. Zizek. A little less "red pen" and cartoon metaphors and a little more concrete suggestions regarding real, possible alternatives, otherwise I am going to begin thinking you are an opportunist flirting with the Left without really believing in real Leftist radical change.
how about we base our economic system on something that works....
like, for example, the scientific method?
Instead of a bunch of pseudo-scientific fiction (economic schools and theories)?
Nope, that's obviously far too logical.
"You can have sex with animals or whatever." wtf?
That was really good, right up until it hit "In this sense the Holy Spirit is here now. And down there on Wall Street there are pagans who are worshipping blasphemous idols." So I've come to this conclusion: He can take the entire speech and shove it up his sphincter.
That was really good, right up until it hit "In this sense the Holy Spirit is here now. And down there on Wall Street there are pagans who are worshipping blasphemous idols." So I've come to this conclusion: He can take the entire speech and shove it up his sphincter.
the first (?? unintelligible) is :
"a decaffeinated protest"
There is no rule of law when those that are using public offices to enrich themselves are also controlling the regulators. Even PBS labeled OWS as indignant indolents! I don't believe that. There is no form of class warfare like owning the government, the courts, and also the media. Sign Dylan Ratigan's petition at http://www.getmoneyout.com/ . Ask for a constitutional amendment to get a "vote of no confidence" to send these legislators home. I watched as corporate officer's stole $90 million from our pension fund and the U.S. Pension Gaurantee Board did nothing. As far as I am concerned, this government has been "taxation without representation" for a long time. End the Bush tax cuts now!
http://www.facebook.com/marchtodc
Abstractions can be enjoyable intellectually, and lives can be consumed in such pleasantries. However, if you want to build a bridge, you need to develop a very specific plan, find all the materials, and work out the logistics for getting them in place in the correct order at the correct time. This is much less fun for the congenitally verbose, anchored in the passing breeze, on paper boats floating downstream.
If you don't make plans, then things happen you did not plan. It is a matter of historical fact that there were many genuinely decent people in the Russian Revolution (and in Vietnam and China, etc.). They were tortured physically and mentally, and quite often simply killed. If you have no concrete ideas, you will NECESSARILY cede space to those who do.
I have created a description of our current system, which shows plainly in what ways it is unjust, but I have gone beyond that, to planning a gradualistic, but none the less real, revolution. ALL of the problems attributed to "Capitalism" can properly be laid at the feet of the people I term the Monetary Mercantilists. Our system is not and never has been fully Capitalistic. Had things been allowed to work properly, in my view we would have 100% employment, and most of us would be able to work 5 hours a week and live as well as we do. Healthcare and housing and all the other things people worry about would not be problems.
Communism did not fix things, and no one disputes that our society can be greatly improved. But you must always, always, always start with understanding. Please read this piece, and if you like it read it aloud. Discuss it. If I'm being a dumbass, figure out where.
Self organize. You are undirected atoms at the moment.
Here is the piece: http://www.goodnessmovement.com/Page23.html
Please, make sure you know that Capitalism is not what is at fault here. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Gi2l0gWJBUE#!
The Occupy Wall Street Movement has a LONG HISTORY and that HISTORY needs to be understood to help us all articulate who we are and why our diversity is GREAT!! . MIT professor Noam Chomsky has a lecture on YouTube that is excellent. Intro not in English but He then speaks in English. . Check it out and pass it around to your friends. http://tinyurl.com/4ysbbr5
The Occupy Wall Street Movement has a LONG HISTORY and that HISTORY needs to be understood to help us all articulate who we are and why our diversity is GREAT!! . MIT professor Noam Chomsky has a lecture on YouTube that is excellent. . Check it out and pass it around to your friends. http://tinyurl.com/4ysbbr5
I haven't seen this much misinformation being spoken since WMD's. The banks were sitting flush with reserves because the fed created that credit out of thin air. Government regulators decreed they loan that money to almost anyone. So to catch you up so far, the fed FAIL. Do good regulations, which you guys are calling for, FAIL. Americans who had no business getting or paying loans FAIL. Next the bad loans you said banks gave out and sold off, is true, but they were sold off to willing government agencies who didn't care about price, risk, or profit, and when they bombed us taxpayers took the hit, so another government FAIL. Next, when companies started seeing bailouts happen everybody had their hand out so bad decisions were rewarded and good decisions werent, double FAIL. Capitalism DID NOT FAIL! It hasn't been allowed to operate because government from the left and right continue to try and manipulate it. Capitalism needs a restraining order against government. You guys need to put the blame on manipulation, not capitalism.
I have posted two comments that are critical of your movement. They were promptly deleted. So much for the "freedom" you people bandy about. Scared someone may read them and say: Gee, that makes sense? Proves my suspicion. You have nothing to offer other than a lot of puzzling free time to rant nonsense.
This outsourcing of jobs began 30 years ago under the Reagan administration and so did the free trade movement. Unfortunately, both Democrats and Republicans have been equally culpable in this corporate takeover of the government. The firing of the air traffic controllers by Reagan in 1980 began the demise of the power of unions. The repeal of Glass-Steagall under Clinton had a lot to do with the housing crisis. Bush was likely the worst thing for the country, however, as his unfunded wars and tax cuts for the rich turned a budget surplus into a record deficit. If you really want to become educaated about the planned elimination of the middle class in this country, read "Perfectly Legal" by David Cay Johnston which shows that it''s not the top 1% but the top tenth of the top 1%, about 13,400 families, who's wealth has increased astronomically over the last 30 years on the backs of the rest of Americans. NAFTA wasn't about creating jobs in Mexico- it was designed so government-subsidized farming conglomerates could sell their products in Mexico cheaper than the small peasant farmer there, thereby driving them off their land and forcing them across the border to provide cheap labor for the jobs that couldn't be outsourced.
Turn around and march on Washington DC. That is the primary location of the problem. Massive debt creation, support for teachers unions, overregulation without regard to consequences, housing policies that led to the boom and bust, etc. That is why we have the problems of today. Business creates jobs; DC destroys them. Get real.
Full transcript and also video of the answer to an audience question at http://www.fishrockroad.org/2011/10/zizek-at-occupy-wall-street.html
Good job everyone, but here are some tips to keep this going:
1) Direct, open confrontation with leaders, as the tea party has done, would help. Follow up actions and events will keep this going. Don't just stay on Wall Street.
2) Drumming never changed anything.
3) Cute signs that entertain each other are only that, and are usually annoying.
4) If you bring up every issue under the sun, it just dilutes the message. (Eg. We shouldn't be talking about the plight of the American Indians at an antiwar march.)
5) Anything that smacks of communism looks ridiculous (don't use the word "proletariat")
6) People who come to the protest looking ridiculous bring ridicule to the cause.
7) "Hey-Hey Ho-Ho" or "This is what democracy looks like" are uninventive, very tired chants that should pretty much never be uttered again.
8) Wearing the "V for Vendetta" mask shows that you're brainwashed by Hollywood and that you don't know the difference between on-screen reality and reality-reality.
9) Don't be a pig, if you leave garbage everywhere no one will take us seriously.
While I do not agree with the movement, I have to say that this is the smartest thing I have seen posted on here
was so moved to hear his speech(Zizec). Some part of his speech( part talking about Christianity) Reminded me of the words of Gandhi from India. I pray that God may pour The Holy Spirit to all of you as came to rest on each of them at Pentecost. Bless all A Christian from South Korea.
You should be marching on D.C. which has created more impediments to real progress than business. Obama and the bozos in DC created the housing boom and bust. Wall St just took advantage of the situation. The world's economic climate is changing and Americans better understand they need to be better educated and skilled than ever before to maintain our standards of living. What is DC doing? Supporting teachers unions that hinder the quality of public education. Get real guys.
Look at people falling all over themselves to elevate these marxist ideals. This makes me very sad. Don't you know that people like Zizek show up at events like OWS because it is like the moth to the flame? People like this are very good at influencing others' opinions and making people think they want to give up their sovereignty or freedom for some kind of so-called security for everyone. Every evil, cruel, murderous regime in history was started with similarly supposedly 'good intentions'.
People like Zizek want to hijack the country with long-tried-and-failed approaches that have been responsible for the deaths of over 150 million souls alone at the hands of the evil former USSR regime.
I can't believe someone even posted this in order to raise up this man above all of the rest of us.
" The marriage between democracy and capitalism is over"
Amen to that statement (even if the context was a little weary)! I wonder what the Anarcho-capitalists would say to this statement. It's interesting to see that Communists (Marx & Lenin) and Anarcho-capitalists (like Rothbard and Molyneux) all wanted the same outcome: a stateless society. Their means to attain that goal, however, differed, but both theories may have been appropriate for their respective eras:
Marx in 1848 with the Communist Manifesto, and Rothbard with For A New Liberty in 1973, the latter of which was the only justified sequel to Marx's work.
Let the revolution begin!
Professor Y
" The marriage between democracy and capitalism is over"
Amen to that statement (even if the context was a little weary)! I wonder what the Anarcho-capitalists would say to this statement. It's interesting to see that Communists (Marx & Lenin) and Anarcho-capitalists (like Rothbard and Molyneux) all wanted the same outcome: a stateless society. Their means to attain that goal, however, differed, but both theories may have been appropriate for their respective eras:
Marx in 1848 with the Communist Manifesto, and Rothbard with For A New Liberty in 1973, the latter of which was the only justified sequel to Marx's work.
Let the revolution begin!
Professor Y
I also grew up in communism and left right before its collapse and right before my parents were to be arrested as organizers of the resistance movement. Quoting some of the thoughts that emerged there to counter the new-speak of today's system (I cannot call it capitalism anymore, its is more Alice-in-Wonderland socialism without a plan if anything)
The 'system' right now only rescues 'system-relevant' entities at the cost of us, 'demos' or as they implicitly call us, the 'non-system-relevant' entities. Mine and Your children's future is being mortgaged to save 'system-relevant' Goldman-Sachs of this world which can only survive as 'system-relevant' entities by taking even more outrageous bets to either become big enough to remain 'system-relevant' or generate enough failed obligations to other parties to become 'system-relevant' in its failure.
The question you have to ask yourself in a system that organized itself along those lines is not whether you are 'system-relevant'. The question is:
IS THIS SYSTEM STILL RELEVANT TO ME ?
I recommend Thoreau as lecture.
Even I do not like US leaders and the way America treat the rest of the world, especially small countries, I support people demonstrating. It gives me hope that someone started to think about that stupid thing called justice.When some government talk to the rest of the world from the position of force it was just the matter of time when they will apply the same way to theior own nation. be brave , regards from Serbia.
During the "bail out" period, not only tte USA but the whole world finally realized that something was terribly wrong. "The bailed out executives" of an investment bank had shared the "bail oüt" money (which was taxpayers' money) among themselves as bonuses. And the estimates showed that the sum each person got was 60,000$.......now hold on tight......A DAY.
This was on the news then even on......CNN! !!!!!!!!! The time has come to talk of many things.........
During the "bail out" period, not only tte USA but the whole world finally realized that something was terribly wrong. "The bailed out executives" of an investment bank had shared the "bail oüt" money (which was taxpayers' money) among themselves as bonuses. And the estimates showed that the sum each person got was 60,000$.......now hold on tight......A DAY.
This was on the news then even on......CNN! !!!!!!!!! The time has come to talk of many things.........
Thanks for the transcription, it's very helpful. I've just shared the link on my Facebook page. I don't have enough words to express my appreciation and admiration for you. Don't give up and don't surrender. May the Good Lord bless you all. Pietro Ferrari (Italy)
Thanks for the transcription, it's very helpful. I've just shared the link on my Facebook page. I don't have enough words to express my appreciation and admiration for you. Don't give up and don't surrender. May the Good Lord bless you all. Pietro Ferrari (Italy)
inspirational divine objectivity in the here and now. we face a deep chasm of catharsis in the truth of prophecy of revelations. Ras Tafari is the true returned christ. jesus is the antichrist. the end of cannabis prohibition is the RAPTURE. cannabis is the tree of life. no more curse means mass unemployment. the queen of england is the whore of babylon. 911was an INSIDE JOB. a series of three controlled demolitions. STOP THEM BRUTALISING US WITH BS all christian preachers GROOM children by telling them their mothers are sinners. child protection will destroy christianity just as women's liberation will destroy islam.
October 15th We'll Occupy Athens Parliament!
OCCUPY PROPERTY by getting CASH BIG time SSSSSSS's Go to Property Wikia at www.cashwikia.com/0880401265/250K
"Project Democracy" has finally started where it should have started at the first place. At home. And the beauty is without ARMS.......!!!!!!!! Good luck to you all from Turkiye....
"Project Democracy" has finally started where it should have started at the first place. At home. And the beauty is without ARMS.......!!!!!!!! Good luck to you all from Turkiye....
"Project Democracy" has finally started where it should have started at the first place. At home. And the beauty is without ARMS.......!!!!!!!! Good luck to you all from Turkiye....
"Project Democracy" has finally started where it should have started at the first place. At home. And the beauty is without ARMS.......!!!!!!!! Good luck to you all from Turkiye....
"Project Democracy" has finally started where it should have started at the first place. At home. And the beauty is without ARMS.......!!!!!!!! Good luck to you all from Turkiye....
All those of you who camp out in the wind and rain and cold...you are heroes. Lets keep showing the pundits and naysayers that we are not just a flash in the pan. We will remain, we will occupy this city!!! I think we should make a request to the media and general public, that they put up information (phone numbers, emails, addresses, form letters, petitions and websites) of our local/regional elected officials and publish that we are asking for specific reforms regarding the creation of an equitable tax structure, anti corruption laws and corporate regulation. If we have specific demands attached with specific instructions on how members of the general public can get involved in this process (even from home...without coming down and protesting, which is honestly what most of the 99% will be willing to do).We need to be the change that we would like to see in the world, and we need to remind the public sitting at home, of this notion. If we outline some very specific, yet broadly inclusive actions (by this i mean, no "radical" demands for abolishing the DEA or saving the whales....or whatever other causes may also seem important to many of the factions within our movement. We need to reform our nation one thing at a time...one by one, checking things off our list of grievances and then moving on to our next demand. To do this most effectively we should start with demands that include the most members of our movement as possible...ie; something to address the Wealth Gap, Corporate Accountability or Tax reform. Once one demand has been met we will have far more credibility in the eyes of the public, not to mention in the eyes of the 1% and we will make some tangible progress, while building exponential momentum. ), we will make real progress. We will have people willing to be arrested en mass and engage in civil disobedience in an entirely new and even bigger way than they are currently) I think the sooner we have some basic demands and calls to action (like the facebook organized plan to switch enrollment from the "big banks" and to join a local credit union this week) then the larger this movement will get. people are simply apathetic and overwhelmed as a whole. We need to empower the 99% and create an outline for real, measurable, social change. I am willing to participate in any peaceful civil disobedience for this purpose and would love to see others give me some input on this idea. Give the occupiers a productive reason to get arrested hehe. If you agree with my ideas, please try and suggest this course of action to others so we can discus it at the GA soon. Thanks for listening, Alex
I own the website GoldMoneyParty.com and the domain name EGOVERN.US. America is in an upheaval right now, and the two parties, Republican and Democratic, are responsible for our economic failure and political failure. I am proposing to make You a full partner in both websites. I will handle content and sales, You are the programming brain. An example of the upheaval is to be found by using Google to see what's happening in New York. Just type Occupy Wall Street and you will see how we can both place ourselves ahead of a massive anger and desire for deep change here in America and in Europe. The problem is there is no focus. So, here's how I propose to change the political and economic landscape. We have in the United States the ability to "write in" candidates at all levels of government, from the President on down to the local mayor. But no one has used the internet to complete this task at the highest levels of government. This is my proposal. I own the domain name egovern.us. I want it to be a "political" facebook where people can focus their anger in creating their answers to the problems both political and economic that that we all face. We will vote "like" or "dislike" on the thousands of platforms, agendas and ideas. And when the cream rises to the top, we will do write in campaigns for the winners of our “online” election for President in the key battleground states to start, and then, eventually all 50 States! The charge is $30 per year to register the site and participate in the “like” or” “dislike” voting. Think about it, America electing its National Leaders from their computers, their laptops, their iphones. I see millions joining! This will be the world’s first “electronic” electorate. This is our future. Please take it seriously. Be willilng even to die for it and risk everything to bring it to pass. My particular agenda is found in the site: goldmoneyparty.com. Please review it carefully. GoldMoneyParty.com will submit itself to be voted up or down as well. But I want a 3 by 3 forced follow me matrix with full pay on all spillovers. It costs $300 to join goldmoneyparty.com. You are required to find three others to join, you than cycle and earn $300. When your 3 recruits each cycle by getting their three each they are forced by the computer to come back home to you and when they do you make $300 again. This continues to infinity. An example of such a plan is to be found at the website: killgrocerybill.com. I want you to help me monetize GoldMoneyParty.com should we win the vote of the people, and offer our service to the “winner” of our electronic election. For once, those who protest can be paid for their time and effort, and at last find the eternal employment they seek in their hearts. I am proposing to you that You become full partners with me on both websites. If interested, please fedex documents drawn by a lawyer in your country that you trust. Also, please set up a business paypal account that only you and I can access. I want to split profits 50 50 between Us and both of US to have access to the paypal account at all times. I will handle all the content, video production and marketing on my end. You are the accounting brain. Let’s be different than all the rest. Join Me! Now!
Nice, I'm from South Africa and I love what you guys are doing, this is not only an American problem but a global one. Whatever happens in the USA influences the entire globe. Together we can change things, just look at what happend in my country. I thank you for your effort and sacrifice. Hang in there.
Growing up, most of us were taught that if we wanted to change things in America, we could do it at the ballot box. Well, today large numbers of Americans are realizing that both major political parties have been bought and paid for. http://youtu.be/p3Ven1km2y4
To Those In Uniform To the policemen, soldiers and others who are in uniform, remember:
You swore to defend the constitution and the people not the international banks. An attack on the people is an attack on you.
YOURS are the pensions being decimated.
YOURS are the homes being forclosed.
YOURS are the lack of opportunity.
YOURS is the currency being inflated.
YOURS is the national debt owed to the international banks.
They will try to convince you that the movement is violent, illegitimate, terrorist or whatever term they think will frighten you into action against your own people. Do not fall for it.
There will be more,
Diogenes the 99
h t t p : / / d i o g e n e s t h e 9 9 . b l o g s p o t . c o m /
Growing up, most of us were taught that if we wanted to change things in America, we could do it at the ballot box. Well, today large numbers of Americans are realizing that both major political parties have been bought and paid for. http://youtu.be/p3Ven1km2y4
Except as satire, I can't take his comment about Chinese censorship seriously. Yes, China has had huge growth, because their current leaders are nowhere near as bad as the Maoists. It's easy to have relative prosperity when some of your workers are just barely able to run a car on their salary for the first time, and glad for it. But for China to continue getting better - to reach a lifestyle equal to that of Americans - they will have to match our freedom of speech. Otherwise their leaders will run into problems they don't manage to solve - air pollution, illegal garbage dumps, monster traffic jams, poisoned food, crooked real estate grabs, ethnic vendettas and so on - and bit by bit they'll drag everything else down. Likewise, if we fail to uphold our freedoms...
Occupy Wall Street is working because, on average, American freedom of speech is working. From what I've read here, despite some outrageous incidents, mostly the cops are letting people get their message out, while preventing the kind of mindless vandalism that turns so many ordinary people against public protests. Even the media is getting some of the message out, reprinting demands and running sympathetic editorials. With the right to speak and organize to make fundamental changes, Americans have the power to turn things around.
I find myself suspicious that a lot of the Chinese censorship works hand in glove with widespread piracy to decrease its royalty payments on American films and books. It might be useful to perceive this also as a trade issue, an unfair tariff on our ideas.
Corporate level capitlalism/socialism. Presently the board members vote themselves a three million dollar salary, plus stock options. On the following day they vote upon the janitor's salary and grant him a thirty-thousand dollar a year salary with copay health benefits!! A little unfair? "Hey, do you want the job or not?!" Thousand of churches have what is called "congregational government". Where the body has the opportunity on voting upon the more important concerns within the church. Like the pastors salaries, development of new ministries etc. The pastors continue to lead and give direction... that's their job. But it is not their job to vote themselves huge salaries. That would appear as greed, and a noble person never wants to be seen as greedy. Especially when the janitor and his family attends his church. Capitalism where the authority is in the hands of a few works great if you are of the few, the 1%. Otherwise you could be working hard all your life, and never be able to afford a car, while your apartment is in a government housing project. Where your kids attend "failing schools" while the Mayor, and the one before him, and the one before him, and the President talk about success and new educational programs, which will improve the system over time. Well you ain't got time... your kids are growing up now! Yea... growing up to take your place as the janitor. Let's make an appeal to wall street, and the government. No violence... civil disobedience... mass marches, work walk-outs etc.
There is a Documentary everybody must see. its called inside job. its about wallstreet and the actions that got us here today. charles ferguson made this movie and did a great job breaking everything down.
We need to revisit the term " The SOCIAL CONTRACT " as JohnDeHerrara said " Our ultimate right is that of Alter and Abolish."
read post on tumblr @ hot beans and bacon. addresses this completely. too funny.
Ivan Marovic of Serbian Otpor just wrote in his blog http://blog.b92.net/text/18891/Pocelo-je/ that Center for Applied NonViolent Action and Strategies is behind OWS movement Somebody confirm or deny this please...
This is NOT TRUE! Let me clarify that I didn't claim that, I only reported on the conspiracy theories which claim that and which are NOT TRUE (I also gave links), so read my blog carefully please.
Cheers
I had a great time at Liberty Plaza two weeks ago, I'm glad you're growing, guys, glad Zizek spoke and hope to be there again.
oh i get it. run off veterans of the civil rights movement (rep. john lewis), but allow a self-proclaimed communist to speak and then gush on about him. this is absurd.
I am not surprised that so many of the comments are entrenched in some form of binary--the communists were wrong, or the communists were right, but the applications were wrong. Look, the best things about this movement is that it has legs and it doesn't have a head. Jacques Ranciere argues that the Left/Right binary is a waste of time. What we have here is dissensus and dissensus has the capacity to change the topography of the political world. We don't have a failure to communicate like China or Russia, we have the ability and the power to communicate our dissatisfaction effectively and purposefully, which is something that China and Russia NEVER had.
Zizek is right that more ruthless forms of capitalism exist, but this doesn't mean that we need to believe that this is our destiny (each State articulates capitalism in its own language--when hasn't Russia been oligarchic and when hasn't China been occupied by a centralized power structure? )America is an experiment in democracy and it is still an experiment. Vocalizing our opposition to perversions of democracy is a right and we choose to utilize it.
Interesting blog http://americanfall.org/?p=21
Here's a full version of Slavoj's speech. (And better camerawork, too.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oEUZNfOtPlE&feature=related
But the reason we are here is that we have enough of the world where to recycle coke cans… http://www.flickr.com/photos/mrdrinkwater/5868317700/
2008 Cartoon We all know the classic scenes from cartoons. The cart reaches a precipice. But it goes on walking. Ignoring the fact that there is nothing beneath. Only when it looks down and notices it, it falls down. This is what we are doing here. We are telling the guys there on Wall Street – Hey, look down!
http://www.flickr.com/photos/mrdrinkwater/4430995168/
I just posted this at ADBUSTERS, but it applies to you useful idiots also. You had better be careful.
http://www.bostonherald.com/news/regional/view.bg?articleid=1372233
And "BOOM" goes the dynamite.
LUUCCCYYYY, you got some splannin to do.
You need to explain this ADBUSTERS. Is this what your non-leader movement supports? One lesson you useful idiots never learned, probably because it has to do with physics and math, is that NATURE ABHORS A VACUUM. You idiots have no (visible) leader, and throughout human history, a leader ALWAYS takes over. One person will lead a majority of people in your enclave, and then THEY will determine what you stand for. By allowing this in your "George Soros Funded Leaderless Mob" (like Soros would EVER give money without his control on it), you prove who and what you stand for. I posted here once before, and told you to look up Canadian Counter Terrorism, and Terrorist Support Network laws. I said you may edge over the line, and now you are a hairsbreadth away from crossing it. You had better PRAY it doesn`t get violent at your socialist/marxist/anarchist/nihilist/unionist/Democrat "occupation". Nice term, foreign troops "occupy" territory, like Nazis occupy France, USSR occupies Eastern Europe, China occupies Tibet. Good choice of term. Occupied. Keep in mind one thing guys, when the shitstorm hits, the conservative side and belief system you oppose, own guns, and KNOW how to use them.
Leaders who have no followers find themselves walking all alone. And calling people idiots because they aren't part of your group mind is not going to go far in persuading. Name calling reflects a weakness in both the argument and the one making it.
Not name calling. Look up the term Useful idiot and Lenin. Also look up what happened to the Useful Idiots, after the revolution.
So because it isn't your term it isn't name calling? It has questionable roots, but is still a slander in the way it implies blind thoughtless followership. The point you are missing is that this a group of people who are comfortable being leaderless and recognize the danger of formal organization, as well as the problems inherent with that.
http://dailycaller.com/2011/10/09/occupy-atlanta-mob-refuses-to-allow-civil-rights-champion-john-lewis-to-speak-video/ sure looks mindless to me. I wonder if they did this at Bhund meetings? No group is leaderless. You are ignoring ALL of human history.
And you are ignoring what is right in front of you...
Looks like they have learned from history, to me. Just because leaderless isn't in your paradigm doesn't mean it doesn't exist, isn't working, is destined to fail. Open your mind and stretch your imagination.
It has ALWAYS failed. If it worked so well, then why are there NO communes or enclaves left from the 60's. What happened to them. They ALL failed. REMEMBER, THESE WERE DIEHARDS IN YOUR BELIEF. What happened to them. They FAILED.
CAPS DO NOT MAKE YOUR POINT MORE VALID. If you disagree with the organization being outside what you think it should be, you can certainly voice your opinion. It seems, however, that no one is listening. Does this make you angry, or make you feel stressed? Again, I encourage you to try letting go of this negative mindset. Relax. They have handled everything great so far, and I have faith they will continue to do so. They have been more careful than you seem to realize. These are most certainly not "useful idiots".
Obviously you never looked at the story or videos I posted. Those are outside of any rational adults beliefs. Chanting after the speaker is Jim Jones like. Hand signs they use in pre-kindergarten for adults? Are you incapable of rational discourse like adults? Supporting terrorists? You need to ask WHO is organizing this or did you just accept that the infrastructurial support just appeared? The internet sites just magically existed? It costs 1000 a month for each sites servers alone, 28 sites, staff, marketing, funding, just magically happened?. I have found out who funds these groups and this movement, and I am sorry, but I can not suborn socialist/marxist/anarchist/nihilist/unionist/Democrat groups from trying to speak for the 99% which would include me. In other words; be honest about who your group is and what you believe in and vocalize it for others to judge, otherwise, you are liars and hypocrites who can go fuck yourselves.
Yep, a little stressed, there. Chill.
Lady, I served my nation, I carry scars, bullet holes, and shrapnel to remind me EVERYDAY. Every ache in the morning, every ache when it rains, every ache when a pressure system roles through, every ache when it is winter reminds me what the price of freedom is. I remember one time in a shithole socialist African country, watching a woman walk off down the road with a pail on her head, and a AK47 in her hands. I asked our interpretor where she was going? he explained that, because of the anarchy of the country, she is going to walk 2 1/2 miles to a well. The AK47 is in case slavers or groups of theives try to capture or kill her. They were so grateful we were there, because they knew that our armies never invaded and killed for territory. That everytime the US or Canada went to war, they never kept any territory, they were only there to help. I, my sergant and two combat engineers came out there the next day and fixed their well in 2 hours. We also left parts for them in case it failed again. They cheered and clapped, and the interpreter said that they just expected it of us. That is why none of them had gone for water that day.
Look up neo colonialism. We don't occupy, we set up puppet governments who are friendly to corporate interests and rape the land and abuse the people. The puppet leaders get wealth and power.
Faithntruth - i am so glad you stopped responding here - nothing good will come from wasting time with people like this. We, the 99% get it, without explanation. Just because there is no written history of this happening before doesn't matter one damn bit. We are here where we are now and we are imagining a better future! Thoughts always preceed actions. We first dreamed it, then we will design it. And that woman walking with her AK47 will still be happy and grateful - but not because she has a weapon and military presence to protect her, but because she will be free and won't need those things!! I feel sorry for folks who just cannot even dream or imagine for one second a world without weapons, military, and war.
That woman with the AK47 is dead. Along with 1,000,000 others when the socialists took over the government 5 years later.
Just went to sleep, my friend. There is always good in trying to take the blinders off...
I just posted this at ADBUSTERS, but it applies to you useful idiots also. You had better be careful.
http://www.bostonherald.com/news/regional/view.bg?articleid=1372233
And "BOOM" goes the dynamite.
LUUCCCYYYY, you got some splannin to do.
You need to explain this ADBUSTERS. Is this what your non-leader movement supports? One lesson you useful idiots never learned, probably because it has to do with physics and math, is that NATURE ABHORS A VACUUM. You idiots have no (visible) leader, and throughout human history, a leader ALWAYS takes over. One person will lead a majority of people in your enclave, and then THEY will determine what you stand for. By allowing this in your "George Soros Funded Leaderless Mob" (like Soros would EVER give money without his control on it), you prove who and what you stand for. I posted here once before, and told you to look up Canadian Counter Terrorism, and Terrorist Support Network laws. I said you may edge over the line, and now you are a hairsbreadth away from crossing it. You had better PRAY it doesn`t get violent at your socialist/marxist/anarchist/nihilist/unionist/Democrat "occupation". Nice term, foreign troops "occupy" territory, like Nazis occupy France, USSR occupies Eastern Europe, China occupies Tibet. Good choice of term. Occupied. Keep in mind one thing guys, when the shitstorm hits, the conservative side and belief system you oppose, own guns, and KNOW how to use them.
WE want work! Without an economy that creates jobs that a person can actually live on all the rest is just BS. The 1% is using its economic/political power to force us all too our knees and beg. It wants total control, it wants the return of a kind of feudalism.
ASK MICHAEL MOORE THIS IN FRONT OF EVERYONE! . Wow!- here comes michael moore -big surprise!-how many of his ill-gotten million$ is he giving away so you all are satisfied you finally are treated fair? ASK HIM RIGHT IN FRONT OF A CROWD THRU A BULLHORN TO SHARE IT ALL WITH YOU. He will make a movie about YOU and be rich again, right? if there are, say, 100,00 of you there and he is reportedly worth $50million he can hand out $500 to EACH ONE! I bet he'll start writing checks on the spot. Once his new movie ABOUT OWS comes out he'll be rich again and ALL OF YOU THERE ARE OWED ROYALTIES! GO DO IT-see what he does!
can't take reading anymore incoherence from such obvious winies. As soon as big labor saw masses of "usefull idiots" they come riding in to make use of the publicity. Wow!- here comes michael moore -big surprise!-how many of his ill-gotten million$ is he giving away so you all are satisfied you finally are treated fair? ASK HIM RIGHT IN FRONT OF A CROWD THRU A BULLHORN TO SHARE IT ALL WITH YOU. He will make a movie about YOU and be rich again, right? if there are, say, 100,00 of you there and he is reportedly worth $50million he can hand out $500 to EACH ONE! I bet he'll start writing checks on the spot. Once his new movie ABOUT OWS comes out he'll be rich again and ALL OF YOU THERE ARE OWED ROYALTIES! GO DO IT-see what he does!
Coming from a cultural, geographic and educational neighbourhood of Slavoj, and having listened to his lectures at more than one occasion, I was really happy to see him speaking to all of you today.
His English may not be perfect, but his thoughts are priceless. I'd like to offer my views on what I think the man said, and what his message really was.
Basically, do not squander this chance to provoke change. Take your time, but reach some conclusions and set some goals, and then go about acomplishing them. If you are not sure what does goals should be, ask around and read about economic policies, now is the good time as any.
The world is starting to pay the bill for relentless liberal capitalism party that has been going on for more than 50 years. The culprits have either fled the scene, or are turning their heads while the bill is being laid on the table. The wrong people are being asked to pay, and every society needs to decide what to do.
If it was my country, I would (and I do) demand redistribution of wealth, through taxes. What is needed is property taxes, luxury item taxes (jets, fancy cars, jewelry), exponential income taxes for the rich, measures to prevent money leaving the country, tax breakes for anyone bringing business back to US, nationalization of the FED and a transaction based bank/insurance company tax.
Nice thing about the US is the fact that this sort of gathering is possible. There are countries where you are physically stopped and even abused if you try to protest. Then there are those countries where the protesters always slip into looting and violence effectively nullifying the moral aspect of the movement.
Regardless of the media blackout/media circuss developing around you, you are today in the very best spot to raise the questions and offer fresh new answers. Demand answers, and offer suggestions.
I wish you patience, perseverance and focus.
Coming from a cultural, geographic and educational neighbourhood of Slavoj, and having listened to his lectures at more than one occasion, I was really happy to see him speaking to all of you today.
His English may not be perfect, but his thoughts are priceless. I'd like to offer my views on what I think the man said, and what his message really was.
Basically, do not squander this chance to provoke change. Take your time, but reach some conclusions and set some goals, and then go about acomplishing them. If you are not sure what does goals should be, ask around and read about economic policies, now is the good time as any.
The world is starting to pay the bill for relentless liberal capitalism party that has been going on for more than 50 years. The culprits have either fled the scene, or are turning their heads while the bill is being laid on the table. The wrong people are being asked to pay, and every society needs to decide what to do.
If it was my country, I would (and I do) demand redistribution of wealth, through taxes. What is needed is property taxes, luxury item taxes (jets, fancy cars, jewelry), exponential income taxes for the rich, measures to prevent money leaving the country, tax breakes for anyone bringing business back to US, nationalization of the FED and a transaction based bank/insurance company tax.
Nice thing about the US is the fact that this sort of gathering is possible. There are countries where you are physically stopped and even abused if you try to protest. Then there are those countries where the protesters always slip into looting and violence effectively nullifying the moral aspect of the movement.
Regardless of the media blackout/media circuss developing around you, you are today in the very best spot to raise the questions and offer fresh new answers. Demand answers, and offer suggestions.
I wish you patience, perseverance and focus.
At the inception of our nation our Founding Fathers strongly believed in individual freedoms and limited government interference in the lives of the individual and yet feared the power of corporations after being forced to endure their financial abuses under English rule and they believed in a government that had the strength and power to deal with corporations as they severely restricted them and regulated the corporations to the point they outlawed them except in instances of public good. Corporations were only allowed to exist for specific projects such as building a road, a canal or a bridge. Once the project was complete the corporation was dissolved and its assets distributed to the shareholders. Additionally the president or CEO was civilly and criminally responsible for the actions of the corporation. Over the decades crooked politicians and judges have been bought and paid for and managed to pervert the Founding Fathers dream of a “more perfect Union” and have returned us to the highly corrupt English system that has allowed these corporations not only to exist but become the behemoth super powers they are now. The recent Supreme Court Decision declaring corporations are just like people is a perfect example of this corruption. Through this decision corporations are allowed to funnel hundreds of millions of dollars through Super Pacs to their favorite politicians and the public has no right to know who is buying off these political figures. It is long past time to put an end to this cycle of extreme political and judicial corruption. I am sick that until now, nothing has been done about the nearly unfettered corporate power and the hostile corporate take-over of state and federal government infrastructure and services, as well as private holdings during this orchestrated recession. The current engineered hostile corporate take-over of the United States Postal Service is just one more glaring example of how to bankrupt a publicly owned and operated essential service so that some corporation will be able to purchase what took generations of tax payers to build. Of course since it is being forced into bankruptcy by congressional rules and fees that no other business has to endure, then of course it will be sold for a fraction of a penny on the dollar of its actual worth. Once completely taken over then the corporation can charge 50,100,200,300% or more for the exact same service and as a tax payer you will have absolutely no say in what they charge or how it is run, just as the Sovereign Wealth Fund of Abu Dabi did in Chicago when it bought control of the parking rights for the next 80 years and now charges 600% more for parking than the City of Chicago did!! So all of you involved Occupy Wall Street are precisely following the lead of our Founding Fathers, I would also encourage you all to read the new constitutional amendment and join us in signing the petition at www.getmoneyout.com to get the money out of federal elections. An amendment such as this would further curtail the influence and power that corporations now have as they have placed the nation in a financial strangle hold as they sit on trillions of dollars in order to continue the hostile corporate take-over state and federal government services and holdings for a fraction of a penny on the dollar as they are doing now.
The corporations have NO power. They pay bribes to government officials by the way of donations. If you had a clue, you would know that the Briber has NO power, the Bribee has all the power. The politician can create rules to either help or hurt an industry. See EPA and NLRB. The rule maker is the power. Why are you NOT in front of the White House. The top politician is who you blame. Unless, of course, you SUPPORT the white house, which makes this a Pro Obama election strategy. Whichs means your "movement" is just that. A bowel movement.
I thought it needed a German translation:
In dem Finanzcrash von 2008 wurde mehr schwer verdientes Privateigentum zerstört, als wir alle hier zerstören könnten, wenn wir es Tag und Nacht, wochenlang, versuchen würden. Sie sagen euch wir sind Träumer. Die echten Träumer sind die die denken, dass die Dinge ewig so weitergehen könnten wie sie jetzt sind. Wir sind keine Träumer. Wir wachen aus einem Traum auf, der sich in einen Albtraum verwandelt. Wir zerstören überhaupt nichts. Wir sind nur Zeugen, wie das System sich selbst zerstört. Wir kennen alle die klassischen Szenen aus Cartoons. Der Wagen erreicht einen Abgrund. Aber er fährt weiter. Und ignoriert, dass er keinen festen Grund mehr unter sich hat. Nur wenn der Fahrer herunterschaut und es bemerkt, fällt er. Das ist es was hier passiert. Wir sagen den Leuten auf der Wall Street – “Hey, schaut mal nach unten!” (Applaus).
Im April 2011 hat die chinesische Regierung in Fernsehen, Kino und Romanen alle Geschichten verboten, in denen Zeitreisen oder alternative Wirklichkeiten vorkommen. Das ist ein gutes Zeichen für China. Es bedeutet, dass die Menschen noch von Alternativen träumen, also muss man den Traum verbieten. Hier denken wir nicht über Verbote nach. Denn das herrschende System hat unsere Möglichkeiten zu träumen, längst unterdrückt. Schaut euch die Filme an, die wir die ganze Zeit anschauen. Es ist leicht, sich das Ende der Welt vorzustellen. Ein Asteroid der sämtliches Leben auslöscht und so weiter. Aber ihr könnt euch nicht das Ende des Kapitalismus vorstellen. Also was machen wir hier eigentlich? Lasst mich euch einen wunderbaren Witz aus der Zeit des Kommunismus erzählen.
Ein Mann wurde von der DDR nach Sibirien geschickt. Er wusste, dass seine Post von Zensoren gelesen werden würde. Also sagte er seinen Freunden: lasst uns einen Code verwenden. Wenn der Brief den ihr von mir bekommt in blauer Tinte geschrieben ist, ist es wahr, was ich schreibe. Wenn er in rot geschrieben ist, ist es falsch. Nach einem Monat bekommen seine Freunde seinen ersten Brief. Alles ist in Blau. In dem Brief steht: alles ist wunderbar hier. In den Läden gibt es reichlich gutes Essen. In den Kinos zeigen sie gute Filme aus dem Westen. Die Wohnungen sind groß und luxuriös. Das einzige was man hier nicht kaufen kann, ist rote Tinte.
Genauso leben wir. Wir haben alle Freiheiten, die wir wollen. Aber was wir brauchen ist die rote Tinte. Die Sprache, die Unfreiheit auszudrücken. Die Art die uns beigebracht wird, über Freiheit, Krieg, Terrorismus und so weiter zu schreiben, negiert die Freiheit. Und das ist das was ihr hier tut: ihr gebt uns allen die rote Tinte.
Doch es gibt eine Gefahr. Verliebt euch nicht in euch selbst. Wir genießen alle die Zeit hier. Aber denkt daran: Karneval feiern ist leicht. Wichtig ist der Morgen danach. Wenn wir unser normales Leben wieder aufnehmen müssen. Wird es dort Veränderungen geben? Ich möchte nicht, dass ihr euch an diese Tage erinnern müsst, in der Art von: “oh wir waren jung, es war wunderschön”. Denkt daran, dass unsere grundlegende Botschaft heißt: Wir dürfen über Alternativen nachdenken. Die Regeln funktionieren nicht mehr. Wir leben nicht in der bestmöglichen Welt. Aber es gibt eine lange Straße, die vor uns liegt. Es sind wirklich schwierige Fragen, mit denen wir konfrontiert sind. Wir wissen was wir nicht wollen. Aber was wollen wir? Welche gesellschaftliche Ordnung kann den Kapitalismus ersetzen? Was für eine neue Art Anführer wollen wir?
Denkt daran: Das Problem ist weder Korruption noch Gier. Das Problem ist das System das euch dazu bringt, aufzugeben. Vermeidet nicht nur die Gegner. Sondern auch die falschen Freunde die schon daran arbeiten, diesen Prozess zu verwässern. Genau wie man Kaffee ohne Koffein, Bier ohne Alkohol, Eis ohne Fett bekommen kann. Sie werden versuchen, aus diesem einen harmlosen moralischen Protest zu machen. Sie denken [unverständlich]. Aber der Grund warum wir hier sind, ist dass wir genug von einer Welt haben in der man Coca-Cola Dosen recyclen....
[Part 2]
...Starbucks Cappucino. In der 1% an die hungernden Kinder geht. Genug, damit wir uns gut fühlen. Nachdem wir Arbeit und Folter outgesourct haben. Nachdem sogar die Heiratsagenturen unser Liebesleben outsourcen, täglich.
Mic Check
Wir können nun erkennen, dass wir lange Zeit sogar zugelassen haben, dass unser politisches Engagement outgesourct wird. Wir wollen es zurück. Wir sind keine Kommunisten. Wenn mit Kommunismus das System gemeint ist, das 1990 zusammengebrochen ist, dann denkt heute daran, dass diese Kommunisten die effizientesten und skrupellosesten Kommunisten sind. In China haben wir heute einen Kapitalismus der sogar noch dynamischer ist als euer amerikanischer Kapitalismus, aber er braucht keine Demokratie. Das bedeutet, lasst euch nicht einreden, dass ihr gegen Demokratie seid, wenn ihr den Kapitalismus kritisiert. Die Ehe zwischen dem Kapitalismus und der Demokratie ist zuende.
Die Veränderungen sind möglich. Also was halten wir heutzutage für möglich? Folgt einfach den Medien. Einerseits scheint in Technologie und Sexualität alles möglich. Man kann auf den Mond fliegen. Man kann unsterblich werden, durch Biogenetik. Man kann Sex mit Tieren oder was auch immer haben. Aber betrachtet die Felder Gesellschaft und Ökonomie. Dort wird beinahe alles für unmöglich gehalten. Wenn jemand die Steuern für die Reichen ein wenig erhöhen will, sagt man es ist unmöglich, wir verlieren unsere Konkurrenzfähigkeit. Jemand will mehr Geld für die Krankenversicherung, man sagt es sei unmöglich, das würde einen totalitären Staat bedeuten. Es ist etwas faul in einer Welt, in der uns versprochen wird, dass wir unsterblich sein könnten, aber es unmöglich ist, etwas mehr Geld für Krankenversicherung auszugeben. Vielleicht kann das ??? [unverständlich?] unsere Prioritäten hier gerade rücken. Wir wollen keinen höheren Lebensstandard. Wir wollen einen besseren Lebensstandard. Das einzige, was man an uns kommunistisch nennen könnte, ist unser Sinn für das Allgemeinwohl. Das Wohl der Natur. Das Wohl von dem was durch geistiges Eigentum privatisiert wurde. Das Wohl der Biogenetik. Für dieses, und nur für dieses sollten wir kämpfen.
Kommunismus ist absolut gescheitert. Aber die Probleme für die Allgemeinheit sind hier. Sie sagen, wir wären keine Amerikaner hier. Aber wir müssen die konservativen Fundamentalisten die behaupten, sie seien die wahren Amerikaner an etwas erinnern. Was ist christlich? Es ist der Heilige Geist. Was ist der Heilige Geist? Eine gleichberechtigte Gesellschaft von Gläubigen, verbunden durch gegenseitige Liebe. Und die nur ihre eigene Freiheit und Verantwortung haben, um dies zu tun. In diesem Sinne ist der Heilige Geist jetzt hier. Und dort unten auf der Wall Street sind die Heiden, die blasphemischen Götzen huldigen. Also brauchen wir lediglich Geduld. Das einzige wovor ich Angst habe, ist dass wir eines Tages nach Hause gehen, uns dann einmal im Jahr treffen, Bier trinken, und uns nostalgisch erinnern, was für eine klasse Zeit das hier war. Lasst es uns gegenseitig versprechen, dass es so nicht kommen wird.
Wir wissen, dass die Menschen oft etwas begehren, es aber nicht wirklich wollen. Habt keine Furcht, das was ihr begehrt, auch wirklich zu wollen. Vielen Dank!
I see the major problem as the end and the means being inverted. What is happening, in the U.S. and elsewhere, is that the majority in the society are treated as means - all for the desired ends (whether this is some material, financial, political, etc. gain) of the few. A human society should honor the human being as its end. The principle reason for honoring every person in this way, is that every person is a theophany, which is to say, a microcosmic representation of the macrocosm. Any social structure that dishonors - or still worse - debases the human being is antithetical to Reality.
If we can just take all their wealth everything will be fine. Then we need their property to plant gardens and shelter ourselves. Then after that we will need their labor to work on the farms (because toil is a responsibility of all citizens).
We can then determine who will be allowed to progress to other fields (not plant fields) because the majority must determine what those with ability will do for everyone else, regardless of their individual desires!
The individual is irrelevant, if one must be brutally sacrificed so that ten may have an easier life it is their duty to lay down and give that sacrifice for them. Or we will make them.
Just like the thousand flowers revolution we should find these people and make them comply, luckily many of them HIDE on wall street...right?!
Ah Francisco doesn't all this misguided frustration seem so inevitable given the system we live in?
Absolutely. I mean obviously wall street is to blame for voting into existence hundreds of billions of dollars to redistribute to banks and other institutions and not providing me with a job which provides a wage which enables me to buy multiple iPads from which to derive my self respect.
So obviously its only proper that we all go and and protest the banks and totally ignore the ABSOLUTE FACT that it was people we probably helped elect who made this possible.
But obviously this is one of the practical limitations of our obviously Laissez Faire Capitalist system that we so OBVIOUSLY have.
I think you will agree?
Obviously.
oh ayn oh baby yeah whip me oh yeah
enjoying your sinthome?
read any philosophers you disagree with lately?
no? just mucking about in watered-down Burke and deTocqueville?
when you're ready to grow up, I would suggest picking up 'Sublime Object of Ideology'.
It is going to take a fundamental change of attitude for mankind to go forward. Maximum profit for a few can no longer be the bottom line for everything. We need to turn back the destructive policies that were put into place by a senile president named ronald reagon and the diabolical people in the shadows that pulled his strings. Call it socialism, communism, marxism whatever you want. The wealth needs to be distributed more evenly. Trickle down is trickle on and we have had 30 years to see it is a lie, it does not work. I remember the elitist Trojan horse called Obama saying that in his campaign, he even talked about how this time we are going to pour it on the bottom blocks of the pyramid and let it work up from there, but then what did he do once he got in? Poured it right on top just like he was told to do. Personally I think a mix of capitalism and socialism is the right balance. If somebody puts out the extra effort they should be rewarded for it (within reason) but there are also things that should be done for the good of your society as a whole. You know kinda like America was 30/40 years ago back when it was the most respected and powerful nation on earth, before raw capitalism took over. Regardless if it came down to either unregulated dog eat dog capitalism or a purely socialist society that I had to chose between I'd choose a socialist society. I do have to say, when I look at the people marching in the streets, I see the real Patriots of our country, the people who truly make up the land of the free and home of the brave. The sick spin doctors of the capitalists are trying every angle they can to derail them, people aren't asking for the world to change from a to z, just some fairness and balance to it, fairness and balance that is easily obtainable. Greed is a mental illness and should be treated as such.
http://hacksperger.wordpress.com/ from Spain ;))))
I hear a lot of talk about what has happened and what we will have to do now and nothing about how the future will actually be. If freedom is what we want, we have to define freedom. Freedom means that not only WE get freedom, but our future generations will get freedom. And they won't be able to do that with a planet in ruins. It doesn't take a genius to know that making iPods and cars and televisions and excessive urban expansions is going to deplete every resource this planet can produce. We need to END dependence on mass production, useless material things, and the security of everyday jobs that only work towards making our employers more "successful". We needs sustainability and we need a government that will be honest with us about the effects of technology and pollusive production. The cold, hard fact is this: Our modern world is destroying the planet faster than we can fix it. Open your minds.
I'm torn in terms of what I would like to say in response to the naive, brainless blather posted above.
On the one hand, I'll observe that most of you are young, and you will learn the ways of the world. Capitalism is the worst system on earth - except for all the rest.
On the other hand, I'm tempted to just blurt out - GET A JOB YOU DIRTY HIPPIES!
I'm torn in terms of what I would like to say in response to the naive, brainless blather posted above.
On the one hand, I'll observe that most of you are young, and you will learn the ways of the world. Capitalism is the worst system on earth - except for all the rest.
On the other hand, I'm tempted to just blurt out - GET A JOB YOU DIRTY HIPPIES!
I watched it live and looked at some of this writing.
Nowhere did he say we should abolish money or say that ending the fed is NOT the solution.
talk, talk talk with no real solutions.
Hello! I was so moved to hear his speech(Zizek). Some part of his speech( part talking about Christianity) Reminded me of the words of Gandhi from India. I pray that God may pour The Holy Spirit to all of you as came to rest on each of them at Pentecost. Bless all in His name A Christian from South Korea.
Hello! I was so moved to hear his speech(Zizek). Some part of his speech( part talking about Christianity) Reminded me of the words of Gandhi from India. I pray that God may pour The Holy Spirit to all of you as came to rest on each of them at Pentecost. Bless all in His name A Christian from South Korea.
As what I have said earlier, Karl Marx was a predictor from using historical analysis. He knew the disadvantaged of free trade that would kill a nation once it had reached the ceiling point.
And I urge you all to read the Communist Manifesto. You may not agree with many points within this historical document but I am sure history creates itself, history will then repeat itself.
Social changes (feudal, capitalist etc) are taking form in it's unique way. It is repeating itself but with a different terminology or a better name. It's form is nevertheless the same as human character remains universal. The bourgeoisie (owners of the means of social production and employers of wage labor) are always finding more money from cheaper wages, labor, raw material. The working class (proletarians) are sucked into their bourgeoisie ways of receiving monthly salaries from their labor sold.
If you have read the true essence of the economical theories written by Karl Marx, I really wonder whether you will reach a conclusion as I have. The 99% has been taken for a joy ride by the 1% rich and powerful man.
And the blue ink that you see daily is actually the red ink.
So what does the Constitution meant by – For the people… By the People??? It is truly for the rich 1% society!
God bless America!
He's a marxist. Even Wiki says so.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavoj_%C5%BDi%C5%BEek
Why limit your brain? Expand your horizon. Close your eyes and open your heart. Don't take the bad side of communism. Take the good side of his economical theories.
What was written by Karl Marx against free trade really came true? You are welcomed to continue your state of denial. Perhaps one day, you will realise that Americans are broke through the system they supported.
I have read the Manifesto of the Communist Party. While I don't agree with some of the views (http://www.anu.edu.au/polsci/marx/classics/manifesto.html) of the Manifesto, I urged all supporters of the blog to seriously read the dangers that was outlined in the Manifesto. Karl Marx was a predictor of the future. He had stressed against the exploitation of free trade and the danger behind it as human character remains the same and therefore, history will repeat itself in the free market policies. What I strongly believe we should learn from this historical Communist Manifesto document is that Karl Marx fought against the rich 1% (the bourgeoisie) in order to protect the working class (the proletariat). The protection for all working class in any given European Countries was nothing but a clear threat to greedy money making Capitalists. Marx fought for the majority working class (proletariat) ie: unions, better wage, benefits etc instead of the minority owners (bourgeoisie). It was a struggle between the dominated versus the dominating, the oppressed versus the oppressing and so forth for the betterment of it's people in any given European country.
This comment is targeted for the blue versus red ink issue as raised in the transcript. Is the blue ink represents the truth? And the red ink represents false? You be the Judge.
Americans were brought up to believe the bad side of Communism. But how many of you have ever read the Communist Manifesto and Das Kapital written by the infamous Karl Marx? What do you really know about Communism? Why is it a treat to the American way of life?
The book entittled Das Capital is all about Economic theory assumptions. Why so afraid? While the Communist Manifesto is all about anti free trade, protection for the people with higher wages, shorter working hours to prevent exploitation of labor overtime hours (Ten-Hours Bill in England), the oppressed versus the oppresses etc & etc. It all about the struggle of the oppressed 99% working class people (the proletariat - the class of modern wage laborers who, having no means of production of their own, are reduced to selling their labor power in order to live) versus the oppressing 1% Lobbyist (the bourgeoisie - the class of modern capitalists, owners of the means of social production and employers of wage labor). Again, why so afraid?
So any mention of George Soros or Freedom House, CANVAS etc is deleted with seconds?
I presume this guy is from the CIA, Soros, Freedom House, NED funded CANVAS which started life as CIA funded Optor which trained the activists for the phoney Arab Spring uprisings in Jordan, Serbia and Washington?........Is George Soros paying his hotel bill?
We the Chinese have waken up .we are just waiting for the other people who are sleeping soundly.
Great speech by Slavoj Zizek. See how liberating is to hear a free mind?
Cop on Dub, this guy is not free. He is funded by George Soros and Freedom House. Do the research, silly boy!
No need for righteous name calling. The information will do fine thanks.
Let's hope you check out the information then! Tell the other lads and lasses at Dame Street too.
You are on the wrong street. You should be on Pennsylvania Ave, Washington DC. That's where the bailout artist lives.
You are on the wrong street. You should be on Pennsylvania Ave, Washington DC. That's where the bailout artist lives.
Wait, the government is the problem?! No way?!
Thanks so much! Great job with the teach ins and offering video AND transcripts!
the world needs "equalistic united humanity order" euho , we should start stopping all kind of interest in all world. interest is prohibited in all belief on the earth. we unite to stop interest based economic,social activities as humans and by this way we start destroying capitalism enslaving system over humanity. http://pic.twitter.com/wu5uH0C2
the world needs "equalistic united humanity order" euho , we should start stopping all kind of interest in all world. interest is prohibited in all belief on the earth. we unite to stop interest based economic,social activities as humans and by this way we start destroying capitalism enslaving system over humanity. http://pic.twitter.com/wu5uH0C2
Can we consider these to be a basis for how we operate and what demands we want? Take a look at both of these sites, if you agree with what they say or think that they are a good foundation for us to use then please repost them and also share some idea on how to improve them! (these can be subject to change and compromise, friends, we are non-partisan, we are united, we have no reason not to work together for the sake of the good):
https://sites.google.com/site/the99percentdeclaration/
https://sites.google.com/site/the99percentdeclaration/home/the-steps-to-non-violent-revolution
I hope we can consider these, because I feel like they are the most tangible thing we have to start with as a movement.
We need an ammedment to the constitution to control campaign finance. The reason big money has so polluted our politics is that it is impossible to pass finance reform with teeth without it being knocked down by the supreme court. Support an ammedment to the constitution to allow campaign finance regulation.
We need an ammedment to the constitution to control campaign finance. The reason big money has so polluted our politics is that it is impossible to pass finance reform with teeth without it being knocked down by the supreme court. Support an ammedment to the constitution to allow campaign finance regulation.
Right after the Sep11th, when I was in the US and all this Patriotic Act crap and other onesided measures from the government to curb vital and constitutional individual rights came about; many, many people including myself could see it coming, almost like the Serpent's Egg. What happens in response in the USA? The people voted for Bush on second term. Right at that moment I had a feeling things were coming and very few were seeing....From then on, reigning on fear over people's hearts and minds...we've know the story. It is time to take it all back on track. Occupy EVERYTHING !
I really don't think Bush won the vote.... in either election.
The conversation here, like Zizek's speech overlooks the structural form of OccupyWallStreet. It is clearly in the tradition of anarchosyndicalism, a decentralised, mutualist community. If you want this dream to go further than the square, you need to go out, like the Spanish revolutionary anarchists did, and take over factories, create cooperatives and associations. Go into the hoods and set up cooperatives outside the system and get the masses on board as well (while still occupying public places). Don't expect any coup d'etat type of situation in the US--you'll be eaten alive.
Do you want a sign that our dear Government is only making life harder on Americans? Here's a situation I fell on recently.
You should see to what extent our dear politicians are making the life of hard working Americans living overseas very difficult.
The IRS imposes Americans working overseas much more complex and extremely difficult to follow rules that Citizens living back home. SOME of these rules got bad enough when they passed laws that if you didn't report your accounts overseas, they could take possession of up to 25% the value of that account REGARDLESS if you owed taxes or not, REGARDLESS if you were proven guilty in court or not!
Instead of going after REAL tax evaders, they have decided that all Americans living and working overseas are tax evaders (with out even proving them guilty in court!).
They have become just a number to these politicians, with no real way to protest as they are way to spread out.
We need to make sure that the fight also focuses on the deterioration of our civil liberties! The laws that keep on passing such as the "Patriot" Act are very dangerous laws that could destroy whatever is left of our so called freedom in this country.
What is even scarier is that many of us are ready to give up our freedoms in exchange of a "sense" of security. We still have a chance to get these laws overturned.
Time to tell our Government to start respecting our freedom, and the due process of law!
Abraham Lincoln once said that it was labor power that mattered in a nation of people and not the fruits of it (capital). Who would I be to argue with such a great man? When Nixon opened the doorway to China for the wealthiest Americans at that time (Wall Street) to begin investing the profits they were making here over there in the sweat and slave labor shops of that nation (to maximize profits) this signalled the beginning of the end of our way of life and our national sovereignty. By the time Reagan came to power much of our upper middle class (the small business owners) had begun to follow suit with the wealthiest of the capitalists here by abandoning their workers (the local economy) preferring out of greed to invest their profits in Wall Street (China and India) instead. Bush Jr. openly declared his anti-American sentiments and his betrayal of the American people when he stood in front of a collection of the wealthiest of the capitalists and declared them to be his only "base". He was worse than Nixon in his betrayal of the American citizenry. These protesters you see today are only the beginning. This is a time when the last 50 years of serious mistakes in American history will be undone one way or the other. What you see lately is an entire generation of American citizenry becoming aware and alert to the excesses and abuses that have been heaped on them for decades now by a small handful of pernicious anarchist capitalists here and around the world. This that you see just lately is the true awakening of the American people. God bless them, keep them and speed them on their way. It is time for the sleeping giant to awaken once again in history.
Abraham Lincoln once said that it was labor power that mattered in a nation of people and not the fruits of it (capital). Who would I be to argue with such a great man? When Nixon opened the doorway to China for the wealthiest Americans at that time (Wall Street) to begin investing the profits they were making here over there in the sweat and slave labor shops of that nation (to maximize profits) this signalled the beginning of the end of our way of life and our national sovereignty. By the time Reagan came to power much of our upper middle class (the small business owners) had begun to follow suit with the wealthiest of the capitalists here by abandoning their workers (the local economy) preferring out of greed to invest their profits in Wall Street (China and India) instead. Bush Jr. openly declared his anti-American sentiments and his betrayal of the American people when he stood in front of a collection of the wealthiest of the capitalists and declared them to be his only "base". He was worse than Nixon in his betrayal of the American citizenry. These protesters you see today are only the beginning. This is a time when the last 50 years of serious mistakes in American history will be undone one way or the other. What you see lately is an entire generation of American citizenry becoming aware and alert to the excesses and abuses that have been heaped on them for decades now by a small handful of pernicious anarchist capitalists here and around the world. This that you see just lately is the true awakening of the American people. God bless them, keep them and speed them on their way. It is time for the sleeping giant to awaken once again in history.
I wanted to share this with the group.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wcePaR1LSVA
Enjoy.
I take exception to the comment about "pagans worshiping blasphemous idols." Seriously..? We've come this far to be reduced to ignorant comments such as this? Where did religious BS come in in this 4 weeks of Revolution?
Actually, it's a nice comparison. Wall Street bankers are worshipping the golden calf - Liberal Capitalism. The financial elite has become a pagan cult of no holds barred capitalism - and that is the main problem. Through them, as social elite, the society does not carefully examine the good and bad sides of capitalism, it just believes in it. Just like a pagan cult.
Why not a Christian cult?? They worship the same monetary deity if we are comparing the two.
If Investment Bankers are so important to American society (as they think they are) then why doesn't every person in America quit their jobs as teachers, police officers, doctors, engineers, farmers, truck drivers, carpenters, ect, ect... and become Investment Bankers! The pay is awesome and think about what your friends will say when you pick that summer home in Greece for a bargain. A wonderful Republic that would be. Yes, that way we will all have billions of dollars and nothing to spend it on. Investment bankers don't build our streets, they don't build our houses, they don't put food on our table. NO! They do nothing, but find ways to increase their own personal wealth and are as useful as a wooden gun. Oh, but those elementary school teachers and other people are too stupid to be investment bankers because they actually want to do something useful with their life.
Good talk. They only thing I really object to, and I object strongly to it, is when he said that "communism failed". These terms are not that important, but if you use them you should use them correctly. Any person older than 5 years old should know that communism has never existed anywhere in the world in a large scale. Communism is worker control over the means of production. That's the core of it, the core premice. The Soviet Union was a highly totalitarian, oppressive society (with a social contract that put a floor under certain kinds of suffering) where the workers had no power and no influence over anything. It was the exact opposite of communism. Incidentally, communism was also always understood to be state-less society, so to call the Soviet Union communist is incoherent. The Soviet Union called the society communism for propaganda reasons, and several of the western state capitalist democracies, especially the USA, agreed, also for proganda reasons - in an attempt to associate the term with a totalitarian society. As time went on, the term came to loose it's meaning entirely and is now not much more than an empty curse word. Other political terms have had a simliar destiny (conservative for example) where they have been evacuated of content, or came to mean the opposite of what they originally used to. One of Orwell's main points was that this makes it harder to talk seriously about the world. Imo it's probably better to completely avoid these terms, but if you do use them, please try to explain what you mean.
Your right, but he said when he says "Communism", he means the economic-political system that collapsed in 1991. Slavoj Zizek is actually a Marxist (and he's a genius)
Yes, I know he's a marxist. I like him too. Anyway, I skipped a bit here and there so I didn't listen to every word. I stand corrected.
China had destroyed our economy, jobs by flooding our country with cheap, low quality products built by cheap Chinese labors for over 20 years. This is an unfair world trade, our politicians allowed it happening.
We can save our economy, our jobs, our assets by:
Don’t wait for our politicians to protect our jobs, they protect big corporations which only interest in profits, not national interest or American jobs. US government needs to apply heavy import tax to all China products now to save our economy, jobs. China silently created trade war against US for last 20 years, our politicians intentionally ignored it and now American wealth, jobs had shipped to China. We, American, must stop it now.
My challenge to you is to start reading the labels when you shop for everyday things and see what you can find that is made in the USA - the job you save may be your own or your neighbors!
If you accept the challenge, pass this on to others in your address book so we can all start buying American products now! No to all “made in China” products.
(We should have awakened a decade ago ....)
Let's get with the program and help our fellow Americans keep their jobs and create more jobs here in the USA.
I passed this on .. .. . will you???
[Removed]
Here! Here! I say "Occupy the killers of American jobs". This protest has been portrayed by some in the media as - Americans are frustrated that there is no future for the young or old when it comes to jobs. Tax to 1% to provide jobs for the unemployeed. If you really want to have an impact on where the problem lies, Occupy Wal Mart, Occupy Lowes and Home Depot, Occupy Sears and Target, and the suppliers - Stanley tools, Ingersol Rand, Joe-Blows imports.
I say, make a real impact on jobs and people attitude, millions go to these foriegn outlet centers, fill you cart up with crap from China, go to the register, and after the items have been scanned and bagged, just say "Ooops, I forgot my wallet today." and walk away.
There is where you need to be, that is what you need to do. There is the real impact. Do it, really. fill that cart and then walk away.
Dissent = OWS!! http://purpleblogspot.blogspot.com/2011/10/dissent-occupy-wallstreet.html
Zizek: "After the marriage agencies are now outsourcing even our love life, daily"
What totalitarian bullshit. Someone else's love life is none of my business, nor is it yours. It is not "our" love life.
If this represents the intellectual heft of the Left then defeat is certain.
Proposal for a plan of action written by some lawyers and students,
https://sites.google.com/site/the99percentdeclaration/
Aren't #5 and #14 basically at odds with each other? #5 ends tax breaks, but #14 gives them for certain things?
And isn't #2 redundant after #1? For both those, I'd rather see something along the lines of "political contributions can only come from eligible voters, and is limited to a small amount (maybe $1000?) per vote", rather than public funding, which I feel is too easy to abuse. What is to stop someone from running a "campaign" that consists solely of throwing parties, with no real intention of getting elected? By limiting contributions to actual voters, corporations and unions and other "groups of people" simply cannot contribute. This nullifies the use of "corporate personhood" to defend corporate contributions, since we already make a distinction between persons who can and cannot vote. It also promotes participatory democracy.
these are guidelines the delegates will spend three months from 7-4-12 to 10-4-12 proposing and drafting a list of grievances to be presented to he government before the 2012 elections so they can be forced to pledge to accept the petition or reject it and allow the voters to decide. The idea is to legitimize the movement and then force the politicians in the election to take sides against or for the 99%/
Take a look at this British YouTube video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGnifTXHQOs I wonder what would happen to him if he tried the same thing in Wall St ???
He came close to the idea of "godless capitalism".
Why are we silent on the elephant in the room.. Arab Oil Lobby / OPEC [which started the ecomonic downfall as D. Trump wisely blames]?
It's that oil that greases the wheels in the Sudan Genocide [2,500,000 dead of Arab supremacy's racism!] and occupies the UN and controls its politics. Why do you think the butcher al-Bashir is still in power?
I am all for 'green' cars BTW, but this is not the immediate-practical action we can take collectively.
We can only gavanize more support by hitting on the real issues.
listen to D. Trump. he knows what he's talking about and does not bullshit anybody.
sign of the times http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqLMjYT3b4w
"Remember: the problem is not corruption or greed. The problem is the system that pushes you to give up. "
A system pushes you to give up because it has been hopelessly rotted by corruption and greed. I see some of his points, but if we don't address the corruption problem, there is no fixing the system, and most protesters realize this, though many leaders try to muddle this essential truth. Despite some differing political and economic views, a strong common thread uniting the OWS protesters is the need to eliminate corporate and government corruption. They have their eyes on the ball--corruption is the cause; a system that paralyzes hope is the symptom.
Quite so. It's almost impossible to regulate greed and still have some semblance of freedom. However, capitalism does lend itself to greed. When the only objective is to "get money", well, it's not really surprising what lengths people will go to to "get money".
The question is, how can we change this? How can we have freedom, yet curb the tendency for greed?
I see only one way - get rid of money altogether. Yes, it's quite radical. Yes, society would fall apart tomorrow if the dollar were declared useless today. But that doesn't mean we can't start working toward this goal. The first step is to quit giving the rich more money. That is, quit buying from and working for the corporations. Buy locally grown foods. Reduce, reuse, recycle. Figure out what it is that you personally can bring to society. Learn a skill/trade. Find your passion.
If you don't think a moneyless society can work, go visit a gathering of the Rainbow Family of Living Light ...
I agree. I say that all the time.... get rid of money. People think I'm crazy. The value of money is people-made.
Well, it's a lovely thought, but the convenience of money is fairly ingrained in the culture. I think you'll have a very hard time convincing any nation to give it up at this point. I wouldn't give up on regulating greed, though. It's far from impossible. We had laws that were very effective at curbing financial greed and corruption (Glass Steagall being a great one), before big business essentially paid off Congress to get rid of them. Those corrupt changes need to be reversed.
Giving up money is possible. That's the point. I agree with you about regulating greed.
The problem is not a "system that pushes you to give up." The problem is we do not have the virtue of fortitude which spurs you ON especially when things get tough.
If you OWSers came over on the Mayflower, you would ALL have died that first winter since you would have given up EASILY.
These days, we live in a culture of instant gratification. You push a button, stuff happens. We really need to stay on task to make this happen. Infiltrators continue trying to take the wind out of our sails, but we must not be moved. Patience. Perseverance. Fortitude. This movement is slowly evolving. Stay involved. Rewards will come.
It's not that we need to evolve from capitalism, it's just that we need to separate capitalism from government. Simple as that...
I agree. I believe that a lot of the problems that originate from the relation of capitalism and the government stem from their funding (obviously). There is too much corruption and influence that comes with campaign funding. The more money that is donated to a politician from a private organization will be used towards funding that organization's hidden agendas, and the politician is corrupted by the amount of money given to his campaign. Many of the ideas and reforms that politicians campaign for are thus disregarded for the specifics of the private organization. It is a disgusting viscious cycle.
http://www.prorev.com/1110NASCAR.jpg
Its not that simple, but it depends on what you mean by "capitalism".
You need an objective third party to issue currency, ensure the rule of law, and to establish structure to markets. (These don't have to all be the same third party). The problem as I see it is corruption/capture of government's regulatory capacity.
By capitalism, I am referring to an economy with market driven decision making and exchange rather than centralized planning.
by capitalism I mean all forms of corporate political influence...
Why are people impressed by this guy? He was extremely divisive in his speech.
Divisive in what way? Hope you don't mean "critical" because every movement needs space for internal criticism.
This section:
"Beware not only of the enemies, but also of false friends, who are already working to dilute this process. In the same way you get coffee without caffeine... They will try to make this into a harmless moral protest."
I'm not speaking for Slavoj here, I'm speaking for myself, but I do have an identical worry.
Dilution is the biggest fear I have for this movement. The problem is this, what we want is radical (in many people's terms, not in mine), but in order to make the radical changes we want, we need more people-power. Thus dilution is a temptation. We could incorporate more unions and politicians by, instead of asking for a major redistribution of wealth to infrastructure and the people, asking for a smaller one. We shouldn't do that.
Said another way, what we want is not just to get the basic changes that the majority is probably already in favor of, but to go out and educate the folks confused by network television, problematic religion, and false or disingenuous history lessons. This way, we can get more profound changes under a better majority.
The agrarian populist movement of the early 20th century is an excellent example of the problem (and other problems popular movements face).
I think Slavoj sense of "false friends" could be applied to genuine people in the movement. It's very divisive rhetoric.
Right. This is the tragedy of the issue, that ultimately, we're going to draw in people (probably many people) that, while they are extremely dedicated, kind, and hard working, don't have the right ideas.
I cherish the happy-togetherness we have now, but it can't last. At some point divisive decisions have to be made. People will have to be told they are wrong. Some loud people who can't understand they're wrong may even have to be silenced to a degree.
Obviously, there is an art to all this in a way that is humanistic rather than vile and authoritarian. It's an art that separates quality teaching (which we call education, I guess) from poor quality teaching (which we call indoctrination).
We have latched on a few Ron Paulers and end the fed-ers. Ron Paul has a good foreign policy and I respect him for standing up to the establishment, but his economic policy is along the lines of "Government shouldn't govern the banks, banks should govern themselves", he wants to destroy all the regulations and make a totally free market. In my opinion thats just removing all the barriers that are preventing Capitalism from raping us even harder.
End the Fed'ers have the right idea kinda, a lot of them just want to end the fed because of some dumb jewish-banker conspiracy of families who own the federal reserve. The fed is very corrupt however and in the banks pockets. The fed is a symptom of the capitalist system. We must get rid of both.
A lot of people want to just regulate capitalism. We cannot stop there. Imagine a small leak in a damn, slowly getting bigger and bigger. This is the same as how Capitalism and corruption works when regulated. Slowly the new rich will use political power to undue regulations and to allow them to be more intervened in government, until one day we are back at the situation were at today
The reason corporations have gotten away with their BS is because of the government's interference with the free markets and the cronyism that enables corrupt politicians to create laws that benefits whichever big money comes calling.
There is a great difference between Steve Jobs and Apple compared to something like Ben Bernanke and the Fed. Apple creates products that people truly enjoy and they create good jobs and working environments as well. The Fed, well, I think you know. Government screws up everything it puts it's thieving hands on.
A lot of people don't seem to understand that Ron Paul terrifies big corporations because he has not, and will not, ever support corporate welfare and the preferential treatment that they've been getting for decades. There is a reason why the big lobbies and special interests groups don't approach Ron Paul - he can't be bought. And they know it.
If they would be getting such a huge break with a carte blanche to "rape us even harder", then they would be beating down RP's door to get him elected. Instead, they are doing everything in their power to keep his message silent.
If the media is desperately trying to keep someone's message from reaching the people (such as OWS for a good two weeks), what are they so afraid of? The banks getting special privileges? That's a laugh.
"People will have to be told they are wrong. Some loud people who can't understand they're wrong may even have to be silenced to a degree."
What if it's decided that you are wrong? Are you ready to be silenced?
Yes of course. Especially when I consider silence in a broad sense and consider my own past.
As little as four years ago, I was a silly teenager advocating free-market-ism, talking about how Iraq would be a great foothold for democracy in the middle east, and investing in oil companies.
I absolutely had experiences of being silenced. My professors told me that the classroom wasn't the place for the kind of politics I was talking, and they directed me to different literature. My peers weren't as nice, and I can see now that there were people and groups that avoided me purposefully because my voice wouldn't have been useful in their circles. I had to unlearn many things and relearn many others. It was an experience of silence, but I don't regret it.
Very good. Then silence for you was golden.
Guess you don't like free speech either.
See above response.
Free speech versus listen-to-everyone-equally-all-the-time-no-matter-what is a false choice.
Certainly you can see that even at the general assemblies, there are already techniques of silence being used. We don't let people go on ulimitedly, and there is even a bit of content control. These are positive things, and add freedom in a sense that they free us from ruckus.
It's not due to oppression that book clubs talk about classics more often than high school essays.
I am not referring to common sense stay-on-topic "silencing" (for lack of a better word.)
Book clubs have preset agendas. Contrary to being "grassroots," it sounds like OWS also has a preset agenda. The problem is, it's an anarchist agenda ( pure democracy=mob rule---read your high school history book), which means the only agenda is to be against capitalism.
And judging from the number of posts which you have posted, and the fact the majority of us are blocked by this sight from posting "too much," I'd say YOU are one of its leaders, and this is another SILENCING tactic.
Luckily for civilization, anarchists never succeed at creating anything. Your chaos will die out, and then we can get to work fixing the real problem.
Doesn't there seem to be a contradictory tension in what you're saying? How can the problem be both that we're too anarchist and too silencing? I think the anarchism is a place we've begun from, but neither myself nor most of the OWS people are for deconstructing society to dust. Don't you think the chaos is somewhat useful on the way to something else?
You're probably right that I've posted too much tonight. I suppose I'm a Zizek fan and got too excited. I'll try to be more mindful of the community in the future.
Also, I'm super not interested in trying to lead this movement. The sense of responsibility alone would kill me.
How can the movement be too anarchist yet too silencing? Simple. Anarchists don't follow the rules of logic. They are an enigma.
If you begin from anarchy,you will fail for a lack of vision. No one in all of history built something out of chaos, except death and destruction.
And I am not suggesting you posted too much. You pov happens to be pc, and that is probably why you are allowed through. I get to post 2, maybe 3 times, and then cannot. Being "mindful of the community" in terms of posting is ridiculous in cyberspace. How socialist of you.
All protest movements are essentially anarchist movements. Many revolutions have been anarchist movements. Read your history. Much political progress has been made by anarchists.
That said. The site hasn't silenced me at all. I've been posting like crazy to join the discussion and keep up on what is happening in NYC while getting involved here in the Bay Area. My experience is that the delay stops spamming not discussion.
Your claims of a preset agenda even if true are too paranoid. This movement is growing out of control. The growth will overwhelm any preset agenda, and what remains is the spirit of it: an expression of outrage that our society doesn't allow us to have any say in our future because the 1% buy our politicians,and corrupt our public instituions for their own benefit.
If you consider bloodshed "political progress," then I guess your right. But nothing productive has come from anarchy--look at the French Revolution. Also, notice I had to change my name....again. You might get to post freely, but then your one of them. Dissenters don't get to keep posting. Very little free speech here, unless of course you are pc.
And the preset agenda is the overthrow of capitalism. You have legitimate gripes, but the motto seems to be "Revolution, not reform."
I am not one of "them" in the sense of being an occupier in the OWS action or GA. I am across the country in a different Occupation. (and presently taking care of kids so not actually in the Oscar Grant Park though I was down there this evening figuring out the logistics of food donations that I am working on in my neighborhood) I don't know what is going on with your difficulty posting. I am sorry about that. But I certainly haven't been PC. I've been told to tone it down by a few because I am considered too confrontational. So I don't think that is the problem you are encountering.
For the record I agree with this being revolution not reform, although I see no preset agenda. Thats what a GA is all about. You should participate in one.
I don't think we are going to get anything of value by protesting until the powerful decide to meet some of our demands. That doesn't change the status quo. To truly reform the system you need to shake out the entrenched wealthy interests from gov't . Only then will be able to make decisions that consider all of our interests rather than the present situation which only is concerned with wealthy interests.
Your use of the French Revolution to undermine anarchism is not convincing. Even that revolution was not useless. Upheavals of all kinds are needed in society. And many at some point embrace anarchy as a form of organization. We may be talking past each other. You may be referring to anarchy as chaos and bloodshed - rather than its actual meaning as a non-hierarchical form of organization.
JFYI: the people who created this website are anarchists. Much of the people who created this movement are anarchists. Anarchists have created countless communes, revolutions, collectives, largely crushed not internally but externally.
I think he's talking about the end of "the marriage between capitalism and democracy". The idea that you can, let's say, invest in British Petroleum and then make it all better by insisting that British Petroleum invest in green energy. That's what he means by false friends... organizations, electoral politics, individuals who want to save the status quo of capitalism by offering us tiny concessions that make us feel good about ourselves but actually do nothing but perpetuate the whole dreadful system.
In that sense, I agree. But I see this being directed towards genuine people in the movement who aren't for Socialism / a particular type of Socialism.
I can't see how one can deduct that from what's been said. He is clear what he means by false friends (and if you are familiar with Žižek's other work, it is even clearer) - false friends = people/entities who would under the pretense of siding with the protesters in fact address a straw man, i.e. deprive the protest of its recognition of the system itself as problematic and instead try to enact changes that are really not changes (or are merely cosmetic ones); "changes" that would only reinforce the current (as Žižek sees it) systemic situation. Trivial example: "oh, this banker is corrupt, yes, we admit it; now let us replace him with this honest guy; we shall also enact special codes of honor blah blah and everything shall be fine". Basically Žižek is saying to watch out for solutions that are not really solutions.
Such as the Anarchists in the Spanish civil war who sided with the communists? The communists betrayed them by the way.
I haven't read Zizek and would be willing to check out something of his. Any suggestions?
Here's one of his most recent articles where he briefly (extremely briefly) goes over some of his key political concepts http://www.abc.net.au/religion/articles/2011/10/03/3331164.htm
If you want a really in depth look at what he believes I would suggest reading his book First as Tragedy then as Farce.
Oh wow, this article is clear on where he stands. Do you really support this?
Weeeeelllll, I think there is both good and bad things about Zizek's philosophy. I think that's its important to realize that what he means by communism is not what existed in the USSR but, as he says in the article, an ideal based in radical equality and freedom that "returns again and again, from Spartacus and Thomas Munzer to Rosa Luxemburg and the Maoist Cultural Revolution - in other words, as something that fails again and again." I think that this part of Zizek's philosophy is very important. I think that we need to remain committed to a set of ideals that the current system falsely constructs as "impossible" and not content ourselves with "small reforms" However, I do not agree with several aspects of how Zizek characterizes what these ideal are. He systematically ignores the racism of both the Christian tradition (Spanish conquest of the Americas) and the philosophers (such as Hegel, who said Africa has no history) that he defends. However, I believe that his euro-centrism is not a reason to dismiss him entirely.
Zizek does support communism. OK. I wasn't clear on that.
Thanks for the link. I'll read right now.
Could be. And the real test of Zizek's sincerity in endorsing this movement will be his and his followers ability to bring their politics to the movement in the same way that everyone else has brought their differing politics so far... with an eye towards tolerated other points of view and maybe even moving towards some kind of shared consensus.
I wouldn't worry about sophistry of political views. This is simply a movement to level the playing field in our government. Presently the 1% control public decision making. This movement is pushing for the 99% to be full participants in our own future.
Its not about politics. Its about the survival of this movement for the long term and to shake the status quo. All political persuasions in the US can get behind that. And thats where the movement should stay focused.
No I will stick with the Idea of structual reform. No more centrilization. We centrlized: Government, Wall Street, Education and the medical field in the last 40 years.
Thats why i am posting. I do not support this mans views.
I am not a globalist. I see no need for the red or blue pen the black pen of justice should be your aim.
Universalism is not the same as centralization. Zizek thinks that we should find a universal set of beliefs that is outside of capitalism, and should not content ourselves with small reforms that will only increase and entrench the centralized power of global capitalism.
His Christian universalism gives me the willies.
Yah me too... he is ignoring some MAJOR historical problems with that one.
Well, there's organized religion (the church) and then there's personal spirituality. It's quite possible to be a member of a church, to be a CINO (christian in name only), and not have true personal christian spirituality - to actually try to live like Jesus.
yes, but I think ultimately he's trying to give Christianity a communist assfucking.
but what if Jesus is a top?
Jesus didn't fuck guys.
fair point!
Here's a great poem by Eamon Loingsigh that is from his book "Love and Maladies." Very apropos here. Someone should read this.... Sandy
The Masculinity of Consumerism By Eamon Loingsigh
The masculinity of consumerism stands strong over your languid recipient emoticons, Recipient, Recipient, Always remember that you are to receive this to your candy-toothed hearts, The youth is my angel-daughter kisses-naive, You are my youth.
You will not revolt against the culture of entertainment! You will not impregnate our youth with Socialism! You will not rebel against indifference! Stand down you! Divest your dick from my daughter's discovery!
Long live the suburban matriarch! Down with the fool sperm donor beer boys, Down with you, Poetic Terrorist of drunken foreseeing, Down, Down goes the modern man known for his glowing, volatile balls.
If only he could cogently accentuate the horrifying intimacies he has absorbed, Lost, Highwayman's hunger to feed on the soup of a woman's hopeful heart, Squandered momentum, Squandering, squandering virulent fight, the beautiful sight of your outrage against the might of our fiscal battery.
Obdurate with passion, He can only succeed at the bane of the crowd now, So goes the flight of the screaming surd rebel flying, Dying for to make the discovery of new ends meeting.
Quoth our leaders of the rights of solipsism here, Their brother in saying long ago Sir Robert Southey said, You are guilty of "disturbing the quiet attachment of the peasant to those institutions under which he and his fathers have dwelt in peace."
Thank you Bob, I say, We pray to you Bob; Please help us maintain the extinguished light, Of our youth's hidden fight, And midnight siren's call of reason in our children's wild season glare, To right the night of their own future, Of their own lives.
Support from Serbia (Europe) We start OCCUPY BELGRADE
http://www.aikb.net/t1343-occupy-wall-street-occupy-belgrade
Thanks Serbia. Good luck!
which, i have learned, is american for: "yeah, whatever".
yeah, whatever
Sometimes it means "Our love is with you"...
: D oh, hearing this rejoices my soul! as much a skeptic and cynic i have grown, i sometimes find a little strength to remain hopeful, too. my personal end of the world will arrive when americans will hug their immigrants and say "we love you". my looks don't make the fact i am not from here explicit, but the conversations pretty much end on "so where are you from?" i hear this question 10+ times a day. 365 days a year. it can drive a person crazy, literally. i think i will make myself a t-shirt saying "I am from ..... what is your next question?" or else i am going to develop avoidant personality disorder ; )
hey just be legal... do what is right, not what is comfortable... this nation needs honest, loyal people
loyal people my a**... the cute doggies of their masters. i believe in moral values and common sense. i support criticism and value the courage of dissent. i stand tall, although i have been told many, many times i am full of shit by the "loyal people". i am the kind of punk that this country needs most. a pointer for you for bringing up honesty.
Heh. A lot of immigrants in Ireland get that but it's out of genuine curiosity as it's a relatively new phenomenon here. We still get a kick out of hearing a black or Asian person with a thick Irish accent.
It's doing wonders for our gene pool!
He he he!!
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place yourselves in their position and imagine their experience. as someone said - treat others as you would like to be treated (you may as well find yourselves nibbling on the shit they are made to devour each day : ) )
I think you misunderstand me.
Immigrants by and large have a good experience here and are welcomed.
bottom line, ireland and america are two dif animals. and by god, the most soul-full people in the world live there (ireland)! so i believe you.
You don't have to be from another country to have people ask you were are you from. I was born here and lived in the mid-west all of my life and people still ask me where I am from. Apparently, I have an accent, characteristic of the part of the state I grew up in. I just laugh when people ask and say "I didn't know I had an accent." Humorous sarcasm goes along way.
Yeah, and I travel a lot to other countries.... and people there ask me where I'm from, or they say, "Oh, you're American, right?" What's your point? Is it bad to be curious about where someone is from? There's nothing wrong with being curious about someone's background. I have friends from other countries who have accents. I like to know where they are from, because I'm interested in them and their native countries. Asking where they are from isn't demeaning to them.
it is not wrong to ask other people where they are from. i am protesting here small talk and not giving a person a chance they deserve to prove themselves as a valuable and good friend. in america we operate facebook-style (perhaps that's why the site is such success): hi, how are ya, here goes "status update", then the big smile style see ya. it is all very shallow. an acquaintance of mine (who is an american scholar) told me once that in america people run after their lives (and money) until they grow old and this is when they begin to learn the value of friendship.
But not all Americans are like that. I guess I just don't get what you're trying to say. If someone asks you where you're from, then I think they have at least some sort of interest in you.
there is too much distraction and pressure and too many ppl are living in their heads. but i agree, or should i say - still hope, that not everyone is like that.
"there is too much distraction and pressure and too many ppl living in their heads."
I'm not sure what you mean by that.
Support from Serbia (Europe) We start OCCUPY BELGRADE
http://www.aikb.net/t1343-occupy-wall-street-occupy-belgrade
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WE really need the transcripts of these speeches!!!
The OWS movement does NOT need this person or any other person like him! He describes himself as a "communist in a qualified sense," by embracing tried and failed methods of social change will only make the OWS movement end up: to quote Ronald Regan "on the ashheap of history". This is a NEW MOVEMENT WITH YOUNG PEOPLE HOW ABOUT COMING UP WITH SOME NEW IDEAS AND EMBRACING NEW SOLUTIONS!
so you caught the part where he said communism was dead right?
I think the word qualified is fairly important.
Anyway, he said, "The only sense in which we are communists is that we care for the commons. the commons of nature, the commons of what is privatized by intellectual property. the commons of biogenetical, for this and only for this we should fight. communism failed absolutely, but the problems of the commons are here."
That seems to make it clear that he's not advocating anything tried and failed.
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True, "the true dreamers are those who think that things can go on indefinitely the way they are", Although I'm all in favor of taking down today's ineffective and inefficient Top 10% Management Group of Business & Government, there's only one way to do it – by fighting bankers as bankers ourselves. Consequently, I have posted the Strategic Legal Policies, Organizational Operating Structures, and Tactical Investment Procedures necessary to do this at:
http://getsatisfaction.com/americanselect/topics/on_strategic_legal_policy_organizational_operational_structures_tactical_investment_procedures
Join
http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/StrategicInternationalSystems/
if you want to support a Presidential Candidate Committee at AmericansElect.org in support of the above bank-focused platform.
These men are going to ruin America and turn it into Greece. I'd rather die than live to see my nation crumble into a socialist prison
wah wah wah: socialist prison! people is social democracies are freer than people in america. an although some of them are struggling, their living standards are much better than those in this country. europe will make it out of their troubles. there is so much difference, so much culture, so much possibility and opportunity, not just an idea floating in the air about freedom and opportunity. EU is a wonderful place and an idea worth to survive. and i pray for them and keep my fingers tightly crossed that their situation gets better soon.
Could you be a bit more specific about what's good about America and bad about Greece? Also, what about socialism necessitates prison?
If we called socialism the general idea that all large concentrations of power should be submissive to representative government rather than to private groups that can act in disagreement of popular opinion, would you be against that?
Greece fell when progressive Athens and conservative Sparta decided to go to war with one another... Oh, do you mean modern Greece?
I am allergic to all large concentrations of power.
I think this is a radical position, but I agree with you. In my mind, there are precious few things that you need more than 100 people to do. Communitarianism is a much more important goal than socialism in many ways. However, it does seem that there are a few things (heavy industry, the internet, possibly some science) that require larger structures. To me, socialism just means that whatever these large structures are, we want their decisions made by people we can vote out, rather than by corporate-non-persons.
Most things in our contemporary life require large groups of people to pull off. The reason for this is the necessity of specialists working together.
I think a more realistic number for a vibrant modern settlement is about 7,000 people working together in the same economic system.
Nevertheless I agree that more distribution of power would work. Centralization is one of the reasons why our system of government is failing. Too much distance between representatives and those they represent.
it is the problem of putting man in all his beauty and divinity into a bee hive.
I recognize that the following suggestion is quite contrary to the movement's stated principle of pure democracy and non-leadership.
That said, I think Slavoj has spent an amount of time thinking about problems with and solutions to capitalism that would equal the time spent by scores of the rest of us. It also seems to me that there are strategic reasons both for and against having a leader (Julian Assange has spoken about this well, though I can't find the link), and I think that rather than simply having a stated policy against it (and other things), we should perhaps try to construct some form of gathering data on our group's sentiments. Maybe it's too early for all this.
Perhaps Slavoj should invited to take some kind of leadership-like role in our movement. If nothing else, it would be interesting to hear what he would have to say about the invitation.
Adam our capitalism is a bull without a rider, it needs to be tamed so it can do productive work for our society. That was governments role. What we have now is fascism. When the concept of fascism was first introduced to me late in grade school and early high school I could not understand what it was. I had a firm grasp of capitalism, communism and socialism but I struggled for a long time to understand fascism as a system of power and economy, I thought it was the likes of Hitler and the horrors of a totalitarian regime at the time. Any way before you are to quick to link all economic systems and political systems under one all encompassing umbrella study up on good old fascism. After you do take another look at the compartmental set up of our system of government and look to what has gone wrong and what if anything can be done to prevent it from happening again.
Why junk the car if you just need to adjust the timing on the engine. term limits campaign finance reform more rigid and simplified tax code
I can't tell exactly what this statement is in reference to. I guess you're associating Zizek, any kind of leadership, or an emphasizing of some views over others with fascism? Also, I hear you saying generally, learn something about political and economic history. Obviously, we all have lots of reading to do, but it doesn't seem helpful to say this generally in response to people's posts here unless you can also say particularly what it is they're misunderstanding. I can't find where I'm building an all encompassing umbrella.
Did you read the rest of the response tree before replying?
There is a general tension between all of us on specific issues because everyone has their own position on the continuum of small specific changes to large systemic change. It's not enough to just say where you are on the continuum. At this point I think you have to explain why you are where you are and try and show other people the specific advantages of your position.
I am admittedly farther towards systemic change than many people, but I also see that as quite a long-term goal. I love the idea of public property. This may be a naive love, but I don't think that it is. It seems to me that you've got to make property much more public to set up a system in which people's education (intellectual and emotional) really directs them to each other rather than to an ethic of acquisition and positioning. There's always this problem, I think, that the folks who end up being quite communitarian in a messed up system figure they can just legislate their ethic, redistributing some wealth and power, and fix things. My suspicion is that unless we rethink the privateness of property, power, and education itself, we'll always be a smallish movement telling the powerful to share against their will.
Am I a Fascist for wanting this kind of reeducation, even if it's done slowly, artfully, respecting the experience of education and trying not to be indoctrination? If so, that's where I think the label breaks down.
Adam vision your ideal. Say you are a group of 1000 people that have set up a great city in CO. You embrace your world you cultivate the "public land" it is fertile 10 seasons of happiness and joy pass. One day a small group of 10 travelers arrive, you take them in. They tell you of their struggles and of their people who are 2 days behind. 2 days pass and 2 thousand people arrive. These people start taking your food, your water the dwellings you built. Now what? it is public land after all. What group has the right to this public land? And if one group has the right over another, have you just reinvented private property?
This is a ridiculously false dichotomy. Clearly there is a continuum of privateness. If when I go to the library to burn it down, I am stopped, this does not make the library just as private as anything else.
Public property (I thought obviously) refers to property that is generally controlled representatively, that generally does not have access fees or requirements that make it available for some groups more than others.
Additionally, I'm not advocating for the complete annihilation of private property, I'm advocating for more things to be made public than they currently are. Examples that many of us can agree on are the financing and insuring of health care. I'd go farther than this to houses, cars, and tools, but I'd be quite happy with almost any progress.
In case you have not noticed I gave you the vision that is "imposable" a world without and what might flow from it both good and bad.
i say bull without rider consciously looking at the original art poster. ;) amazing what images can do though adam. always look and keep looking.
Keeping it simple, I do not think that is a good idea.
How does this work? The OWS GA does not speak for any other GA in this movement, and vice-versa. So in essence you can't have leaders because all participants in the movement are equal. Perhaps one GA will elect a leader, but this "leader" does not speak for the other GA's.
This is basically an anarchistic movement. If you like Slavoj's ideas, present the ideas at your own GA.
I'm not asking about what our stated and practiced policy is, but rather asking about what it should be.
OK. Bu I still don't understand how this works. You've got an anarchist movement. Each GA can make its own decisions. And yet all are part of a movement. So how do you have leadership? I could see a GA elect a leader, and don't have a problem with that. But I don't understand how the entire movement could elect leadership unless you introduce a hierarchy. And yet that seems to be a very different thing than we have now.
Yea. I should certainly emphasize that this exchange is really tentative and I'm trying to talk through the ideas as much as anything (I feel that you're on the same page).
The issue is how to transform it into a slightly not anarchist movement without the dilution (see above) we don't want.
I'm thinking a bunch of movements with their own leaders might be good for quite a while (years?). Many of the most clear changes we can agree on are probably ones that can be made on a local level anyway, having to do with public spaces and such so that we can create a more effective educating apparatus.
I appreciate the anarchist aspect of the movement. And at this point in time it feels like the right way to handle this. Its a gut feeling. I've got reasons but its difficult to articulate them. I suppose I can try on a few points.
One thing that I find invigorating at this point however is the inclusiveness of the GA. If you have an idea, you can go down to the GA and speak out. You simply raise your voice and participate. Anyone can do it.
Another thing is that the value of what is said at the GA is not based on one's position in a hierarchy. It is based on the message and whether or not the ideas are sound. Or perhaps they inspire other ideas. And everyone can work together to judge for them self.
That is incredibly freeing. I like it because the present form of US government is so stifling. No one in power listens to us, and even if they do they extend at most lipservice. This is less true in local gov't, but even there depending upon the size of your city it is a problem. But you can go down to the GA speak up and be empowered by it.
I think this sense of empowerment is a great draw and will enable the movement to grow faster than it would otherwise.
Yea that makes sense. What would preserve that sense of participation while giving the group more well-articulated common ground? Perhaps if we somehow collected the best said (how to determine this?) things from GA's and published them separately somewhere? Some way to record consensus after discussions?
I like a lot of what you have to say and have been saying on this forum. You seem like someone who agrees with zizek's belief that some form of universalism is needed (correct me if I'm wrong) and I certainly agree with you on that point. However, I think that coalescing OWS into one single set of values or demands is the worst form this universalism could take. I say this for several reasons: 1) the universalism or "spirit of communism" that Zizek loves is ALREADY very present in the general assemblies. The common ground of the occupy movement is the structure of the GA itself. A non-hierarchical forum where anyone can express their opinion is an expression of the universal idea at the heart of communism. It is an example of a true commitment to freedom and equality that has not been forced into the non-free channels of dilution found in liberal democracy. 2) Any commitment to centralization around a leader or "concrete demands" would destroy this very important universalism. It would allow the movement to be fit into a very convenient box within the liberal-democratic totality. It would allow the movement to be written off as just more of "the usual" protests that are a form of normal resistance to the current state of affairs. This must not be allowed to occur. I believe that the medias anger at the lack of a leader to discredit or a demand to attack is a testament to the strength of OWS.
We should not ask the capitalist establishment to allow us to change the social order by enacting a few "reasonable" reforms. We must enact this new social order until it is reformism that is seen as impossible and an emancipatory politics based in the logic of the general assemblies emerges as the only true possibility. If their is one thing Zizek is clear about it is that reasonable and concrete demands on the system are always doomed to either fail or re-entrench that which they sought to solve. It is only through impossible demands that contest the impossibility of alternatives to capitalism that real change can occur. I believe that they the general assemblies THEMSELVES constitute such a demand. The worst thing that the OWS movement could do would be to dilute the potential of the GA by defining themselves based on the words of a leader or a proposed reform.
I think the discussion below should clarify what kind of "universalism" (though I don't understand the sense that word's being used in) I'm talking about. I hope it's clear that I'm not talking about unified demands (which we're all quite happily unified in hating, I think) but rather a place where, in a much more minor way, the group can say, "yes, this is dialogue that's clear, important, and probably should be read by the rest of us," though we don't call it's position (if it has one) an authority.
alright fair enough. My point is just that the structure of the GA itself IS the place that you're looking for. We don't need more centralization for their to be a unifying dialogue.
Using the web to facilitate communication can be useful. But I don't think anything needs to be centralized. This isn't a civil war. We don't need well controlled messages to coordinate movements. Its the spread of ideas that matter. I think this can grow naturally on the internet, and perhaps local independent media.
In San Francisco the Guardian paper is a good example of an independent weekly that would be happy to jump on board. Democracy Now is a good place for national coverage. Ideas could be disseminated in interviews there. Discussion on various internet forums - even like this one works.
For GA's to work together perhaps that can happen regionally. There is already coordination here in the bay area between various GA's. The SF encampment was shutdown last week. People who had been present discussed this at the Oakland GA.
Perhaps some GA's could be filmed and put up on the internet as well. I dunno. Maybe. One hing that will happen is that charismatic and intelligent and experienced members of each GA will be watched for later targeting. It does nto help to be paranoid. But it would help to be prepared for this.
I wish we had access to more members of the Black Panthers to talk with them about how to deal with the FBI or whatever the version of that is these days.
I don't think I'm quite convinced of the evil of a bit of centralization. Maybe it's just me, but I have this sense that really brilliant things are being said and I have no way to sort through all the talk to find them. I love the Guardian and Democracy now, but aren't we giving up something if we let them choose what the summary is to be?
Those media sources would just be an outlet. Democrcy now frequently just puts a mic in front of people and lets the speak. The guardian will let almost anyone write an editorial. And I am sure you can find other sources. I just mentioned the first two left leaning sources that came to mind. I am sure there are good right leaning mags too that would be happy to put forth an honest populist message. In the end the independents will be valuable as a conduit to express ourselves to the wider community.
Re: centralization. Yeah it could work. I just don't want to put all my eggs in one basket. But perhaps with redundancy and mirroring we could pull off a hardy web presence in the same way wikileaks did.
I'm imagining maybe another tab on this site that has sifts the wisdom from all the discussion and places it in some well articulated but non necessarily pan-representative articles.
That. Or perhaps something on Occupytogether.
OWS is important, but without the rest of the country is meaningless. I don't see OWS as the leader of this. Occupy Oakland, Occupy San Francisco Occupy Berkeley (all happening in my area) for example will also have an important role to play in this. And so I don't find much use for centralizing communication through a website associated with a single GA. If OWS wants to do what you propose for themselves, I think that is a great idea, but for a national exchange of ideas, something that ties them all together would make more sense.
Oh jeez, yes definitely there. Sorry to be so NYC focused. The last time I was to that site it was nothing.
No problem. I'm just adding my persepctive. But its better to push this forward than to discuss it too much. I think at this point it should be about doing. Discussion is valuable, but its the doing that matters.
If you want to see this. Do it!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=acLW1vFO-2Q
We need to galvanize around the solution--the Article V Convention. We talk about our rights, and how they've been diminished. Our ultimate right is that of Alter and Abolish. We want to alter or abolish the influence of corporate power on governance. The Article V Convention is how we were meant to do that. A national convention would be the way the nation can come together to find our common ground. Whatever is proposed must still be ratified. A recent conference at Harvard discussed this subject: http://www.conconcon.org
We need to revisit the term " The SOCIAL CONTRACT " as JohnDeHerrara said " Our ultimate right is that of Alter and Abolish."
communism didn't fail ..as matter of fact it was never tried ! authoritarianism failed and is failing as we speak. there can be no democracy without economic equality..therefor we nee something like communism
'communism didn't fail ..'
Marxism's been tried and failed about 45 times - clearly if it's not been pure, it's almost impossible to get it right. In fact in the process of all these 'experiments' tens millions of innocents were slaughtered.
Must be a better way, right?
Speaking as a socialist, trust me -- Communism was tried. People blame the Soviets and other communists as though their intentions were bad going into their endeavors. The fact of the matter is that their intentions were good but they bumped up against reality. Even Stalin, when you study his reasons for doing the awful things he did, was doing what he really thought advanced the good of his nation.
When you try to implement a black-and-white approach, whether that approach is communism, libertarianism, or some shade of socialism, you will inevitably fail and become the opposite of what you intended. That's just how reality works.
Building a society, establishing real democratic processes and institutions, maintaining a vibrant economy that can provide for society's needs with a limited amount of resources -- these are not easy matters to achieve in the first place. They are even harder when you are in a backwards nation being opposed by the most powerful empires on earth, which is what the Soviets discovered firsthand. Stable democracies don't spring up overnight.
What we need is to set aside ideologies. Capitalism is flawed and so were the centralized approaches used by Communist nations. What we need are solutions that recognize that efficiency is important but not as important as actual human beings, and we need to take those solutions from a variety of sources, including capitalism.
нет- what we need is not to set aside ideologies, but to be aware that they exist. Capitalism is flawed, so were the centralised approaches of Communist states, but we need to be aware that the system we reside in is deeply entrenched in its ideological mode so as to be able to cherry pick its best parts and select from other ideologies their own best bits.
Building a society, establishing processes and institutions - all of those are deeply political matters, and insofar as they are political, they are not without of ideology. Accept it, be aware of it, work with it to produce an alternative. Zizek would ask no less.
Thank God! There's someone else working to keep on including those who disagree with him! How coincidental, that it would be a fellow Socialist! I've been running around trying to convince discouraged conservatives and moderates to stay with us, hang in there, and not give up on us! We can't represent the 99% if we drive away everyone who disagrees with us. The folks who disagree with us are precious and irreplaceable, and if we don't find a way to all work together, supporting each other, this movement is going to fail. As a nation, we used to be able to work together, and our government stopped working when its people forgot how to do that. Here we have the chance to re-learn how to work together, to build a movement that isn't liberal, conservative, neo-con, socialist, or any of the other hate-camp "-isms" that have ruined us. The 1% rejoices every time someone who disagrees with you or me gets discouraged and goes home. They WANT us to choose a single ideology and drive everyone else away! Can we all please stop trying to do their work for them?
i keep trying to say that the folks who think the system is broken have more in common with the folks that think the system was built this way than either of us have with the system itself!
I agree! The two groups share a great deal in common, including increasing poverty, decreasing wages, increasing anxiety, and decreassing hope! We're all part of the 99%, and we all deserve to be heard!
I own the website GoldMoneyParty.com and the domain name EGOVERN.US. America is in an upheaval right now, and the two parties, Republican and Democratic, are responsible for our economic failure and political failure. I am proposing to make You a full partner in both websites. I will handle content and sales, You are the programming brain. An example of the upheaval is to be found by using Google to see what's happening in New York. Just type Occupy Wall Street and you will see how we can both place ourselves ahead of a massive anger and desire for deep change here in America and in Europe. The problem is there is no focus. So, here's how I propose to change the political and economic landscape. We have in the United States the ability to "write in" candidates at all levels of government, from the President on down to the local mayor. But no one has used the internet to complete this task at the highest levels of government. This is my proposal. I own the domain name egovern.us. I want it to be a "political" facebook where people can focus their anger in creating their answers to the problems both political and economic that that we all face. We will vote "like" or "dislike" on the thousands of platforms, agendas and ideas. And when the cream rises to the top, we will do write in campaigns for the winners of our “online” election for President in the key battleground states to start, and then, eventually all 50 States! The charge is $30 per year to register the site and participate in the “like” or” “dislike” voting. Think about it, America electing its National Leaders from their computers, their laptops, their iphones. I see millions joining! This will be the world’s first “electronic” electorate. This is our future. Please take it seriously. Be willilng even to die for it and risk everything to bring it to pass. My particular agenda is found in the site: goldmoneyparty.com. Please review it carefully. GoldMoneyParty.com will submit itself to be voted up or down as well. But I want a 3 by 3 forced follow me matrix with full pay on all spillovers. It costs $300 to join goldmoneyparty.com. You are required to find three others to join, you than cycle and earn $300. When your 3 recruits each cycle by getting their three each they are forced by the computer to come back home to you and when they do you make $300 again. This continues to infinity. An example of such a plan is to be found at the website: killgrocerybill.com. I want you to help me monetize GoldMoneyParty.com should we win the vote of the people, and offer our service to the “winner” of our electronic election. For once, those who protest can be paid for their time and effort, and at last find the eternal employment they seek in their hearts. I am proposing to you that You become full partners with me on both websites. If interested, please fedex documents drawn by a lawyer in your country that you trust. Also, please set up a business paypal account that only you and I can access. I want to split profits 50 50 between Us and both of US to have access to the paypal account at all times. I will handle all the content, video production and marketing on my end. You are the accounting brain. Let’s be different than all the rest. Join Me! Now!
Just the economic side was a failure? Really? Did you forget the 170,000,000 citizens killed by their own governments in the USSR, China, Vietnam after the war, North Korea, Cambodia, Cuba, Bolivia, Argentina, Chile, Central America, Most of Africa etc. ALL under Socialist Governments. That is what socialism means. Another Useful Idiot.
That doesn't make any sense. Capitalists have killed just as many as that if not more, and those are wildly exaggerated figures. Not to mention, not every Communist in history agreed with the tactics or system of the USSR-in fact, many opposed their model as too authoritarian. Now, there were certainly horrible famines caused by bad government policies in the USSR and China, however, first, many Communists criticized those policies, and second, Capitalist states caused numerous famines which killed hundreds of thousands in places like Ireland and millions in places like India-Under Winston Churchill, millions in Bengal died of famine (and Churchill was known for making derogatory racist remarks about people from India). America isn't immune from criticism on that front either since its wealth was built on slavery and large-scale ethnic cleansing of Native Americans.
Central America, Chile, Argentina, Bolivia ... what nonsense are you talking about? Capitalist dictators in Guatemala went on a genocide against indigenous Mayan people and killed 200,000, in Bolivia and Chile pro-American and pro-Capitalist dictators killed thousands during the Cold War while the one or two "socialist" governments each nations had were fairly benign by comparison.
You are just making things up and hoping they stick. I recommend you read some more critical history.
"Did you forget the 170,000,000 citizens killed by their own governments in the USSR, China, Vietnam after the war, North Korea, Cambodia, Cuba, Bolivia, Argentina, Chile, Central America, Most of Africa etc. ALL under Socialist Governments. That is what socialism means. Another Useful Idiot."
No, that's what totalitarianism means. Socialism is an ECONOMIC system. You've been brainwashed by the corporate media you watch. Hint: It's owned by the 1%, and THEY don't want Socialism!
Under Socialism, people get medical care, and education, and no one starves. Most of Europe combines Socialism with Democracy, despite what your TV tells you.
Much of the corporate media is liberal based, owned by liberals verging on socialism, and socialism is a failed system---see Greece.
Under the socialist-democracies of Europe, France is losing its identity because it cannot defend itself against the encroaching Muslim explosion. Germany is having the same problem. Let's not forget that the Marshall Plan, funded by the United States taxpayer, developed by the United States to aid and assist IT'S DEFEATED ENEMIES into a productive society. Their defense budgets are minimal and hence, the US must intercede to assist Europe on their defense. NATO still exists because Europe has an impediment on defending itself. Remember the fat German soldiers from four years ago. Health care constantly is rated in the toilet. It's adequate at the most but why is it that when you need serious heart or organ surgical procedures, Europeans head to India, the USA, or Asia for the need procedure. Why? Because you would die before they got around to you! All that entitlement has made Europe dependent on the immigration of mostly-not all Muslims, which is causing their national identity to be coopted by Sharia and Middle Eastern culture.
Thank, but NO THANKS!!!
" It's adequate at the most but why is it that when you need serious heart or organ surgical procedures, Europeans head to India, the USA, or Asia for the need procedure. Why? Because you would die before they got around to you! "
I don't know where you got this information from, but this is simply untrue. And people here in Europe are free to go to a private hospital whenever they want, if they fancy to do so. But not because they need to, never. No one would ever die on a sidewalk in front of an European hospital, or at its reception desk, hoping to be let in. I'm sorry but your argument is invalid.
Well said, Alan! You're right that at least most European governments are social democracies, and they have a FAR better record of taking care of their people than the U.S.does. Of course, there are Third World countries that take better care of their people than the U.S. does.
HOWEVER, the Occupy movement should not, MUST not, allow itself to be married to any one political, social, or economic ideology! Our aim is to represent the 99%, and they will never endorse a single ideology over all the others. If we sell out to ANY single ideology, we betray the 99%, and we betray ourselves. We need to at least try to become part of the solution, not just another part of the problems.
And your an Idiot. WHO PAYS FOR IT? Thatcher once said, Socialism is great, until you run out of other peoples money. Look at what is happening in Europe. Or have you had your head up your ass for the last 5 years. Europe is BROKE. They ran out of money trying socialist democracy in a free market economy, and what they discovered, is that the more you take from producers, the less money producers produce. Look up the laffer curve. Tax rates under kennedy were 90% on the wealthy, he cut those rates to 35% and tax revenues doubled. Why is that. maybe, if I keep less of my own hard work, I won't produce much, but if i keep more, then i will work harder for more. In Canada, 55% of the economy was nationalized in the late 60
s. When the government got out of the business of business and sold these companies off, the economy grew at record rates for the next 40 years. Canada was the ONLY G20 country to have 0 bank failures or defaults, and was out of the recession in 6 months. Canadas National unemployment is 7.1% and expected to be under 6% by January 2013.Europe's economic problems were staged by the wealthy, who started tax cuts to drive up debt, so they could declare a "crisis" and cut spending: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/28/business/worldbusiness/28iht-tax.4.5899993.html
and:
http://wsws.org/articles/2010/jul2010/pers-j08.shtml
It's the same SCAM the wealthy are trying to pull over here! Well, us 99% aren't going to fall for it! Let's have a return to the 90% tax bracket for billionaires!
Even Kennedy's 35% would be better than the 0% they're paying now! And that old "trickle down" myth gets disproven by the fact that in the past decade, annual income for the 99% has DECLINED by from 7% to 12%, while income INCREASES for the 1% accounted for 65% of all income increase in the U.S. http://www.alternet.org/story/152637/2000s:_the_decade_from_hell_for_almost_all_americans_but_the_richest/. Yet those same people took almost one trillion dollars in bailout money from the rest of us, and they tell us that they shouldn't have to shoulder their share of the tax burden.
Please don't post anything from a paper whos Star writer thinks an alien invasion would be good for the economy. What editor let that story to press? P.S. When the tax rate was raised to 90% on the wealthy, the government expected a 2.5 x increase in revenue. What they GOT was a decrease of 85% in revenue from the PREVIOUS levels before the tax increase. When Kennedy cut rates to 35% the increased revenue by 2x. Figure it out for yourself, and look up the laffer curve to understand.
Utterly wrong. The top tax marginal income tax rate under Kennedy was 70%, not 35%. Margaret Thatcher was a thief who expropriated wealth from those who produced it, the working people. It's the "free market" "supply side" USA that is BROKE. You laud "government getting out of the business of business"? How do you explain China? The Chinese government owns all of the banks, & controls entire huge sectors of the economy there. And yet they are crushing you, who still believe in the discredited supply-side, trickle-down fairy tales, at your own game in the global competitive marketplace. Apparently Socialism can be very good for "business."
China devalues its currency by 30%. Its monetary manipulation. They have done it for years. Their products are reduced 30% without selling a thing. They are a failing business model, and if their currency was valued as it should be, China would suffer an 8% retraction in its economy. NO state controlled economy has ever out produced a free market economy on equal footing.
Chinese people are very happy. You should try living in China.
I agree with all the sentiments of this comment. Being Canadian and looking at the world economy, we see that we're ok. Our land is rich, the unemployment rate in my province and the country has gone down, not up, speaking from a working class, a full time job really isn't hard to find, in fact, I'm at a new job, making over 30k/year, with no college, and this is normal. Our minimum wage is 11/hour. Our health care takes care of everybody. That means everybody has access to cancer treatments, a doctor, etc. The only thing we get medical insurance for is prescription drugs, eyeware and dental. I'm not showing off, I'm just showing that our government is working. We have a 1%, but they don't rule everything we do. There were no bailouts. I'm not sure that we were the only country to have zero bank failures, but our capitilism is working.
Thanks for the info. So many Americans refute that Canadian national health care works. They don't have a fucking clue. Australia didn't go under, either.
Government controlled socialism will never work. It must be realized by the people on the corporate level. People in power must be convinced for the good of others, their brothers, to surrender their authority over dictating the salaries of their employees.
So you have never run or managed a business, have you. Let the employee dictate salary and not the owner of the company? Really? Really? You can't be that stupid? Your just kidding right? You don;t actually believe that do you? If you do, than this movement is doomed faster than i thought.
okay, okay, just because you don't support the movement you think you can just come here and call every second person an idiot?? well yes, in fact, i do own and manage my own business and i can tell you that i would never treat my employees the way the majority are being treated in the us. why? because it is obvious that they could quickly turn around and stand up for their rights and fight back and where would that leave me, the business owner? without employees and without business. very simple really. and you can't deny it, because it is happening.
Yes I do come on here and call you Useful Idiots. You elect the worst president in US history, you whine about bailed out banks who have paid back 99% of the money at a profit for the US government, and then you don't protest the White House where the real problem to recovery lies. You are useful idiots. Look it up. See what happened to the useful idiots after the revolution.
Obama is far from being the worst president in history. He's not a saint, but he certainly isn't the worst. If you consider Bush 43 better, then you're the idiot.
It would actually only leave you with new, better employees. ...and are you saying that your employees are able to talk and negotiate with you directly? ...without a union?
The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money - Margret Thatcher. Take Hugo Chavez, his socialism is somewhat successful because he gets his wealth from America buying his oil and to a greater extent, because he outlaws opponents and steals successful businesses. Is that really any more sustainable that capitalism, really?
(1) He's actually trying to diversify oil sales to China
(2) Many socialists and communists are actually quite critical of Chavez on many fronts.
The problem with Margaret Thatcher is that eventually SHE ran out of other people's money. So did the government that replaced her. The new boss is always the same as the old boss, yet we continue to insist on depending on bosses, when we need to learn how to depend upon ourselves.
Hello... wrong form of socialism. Corporate level not by a national government.
"The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money"
You sound like a Republican that doesn't want his taxes raised. Under Socialism, the government runs important tasks that aren't appropriate for a for-profit company, like health care or assisting the poor. And, yes, they're paid for by taxes.
Tax rates are also appropriate, which is why the wealthy hate it. They've used their corporate media to spread the Big Lie that Socialism is like Stalin killing 25 million of his people.
It's quite effective. It convinced the poster above, and several other posters I've seen recently. It suggests there's been an increase in the anti-Socialism memes in the corporate media lately.
If so, it's because they're afraid of Socialist ideas catching on, and THAT'S probably because of the critique of Capitalism spearheaded by OWS!
Did you forget the millions who were killed, slaved and displaced because of the capitalist development of european empires since XVII century? Socialism is not the only doctrine with a dark side. And I'd like you to provide the sources of people being killed by argentinian and chilean socialist governments. In the meanwhile I suggest you to google "Pinochet" and "Dictadura militar en Argentina" to discover right wing/capitalist governments in both Argentina and Chile killing their own citizens.
That's decidedly not what I said. You see the word "socialist" and assumed I was somehow defending communism. I was criticizing it, you moron. Try stepping back from your indoctrination for one moment and actually try comprehending what you read.
The original poster said that communism has never been tried. I pointed out that communism was indeed tried and that it had failed miserably. The economic impossibilities of what the communists tried to do led to the paranoia and heavy-handed methods that led to them killing all those innocent citizens.
You parrot talking points you hear from the right-wing propaganda machine, support policies that run directly against your own interests, blindly attack people who are actually agreeing with you because you assume they are your enemies based on the labels they've attached to themselves, and you have the gaul to call me the useful idiot. Take your projection somewhere else.
I own the website GoldMoneyParty.com and the domain name EGOVERN.US. America is in an upheaval right now, and the two parties, Republican and Democratic, are responsible for our economic failure and political failure. I am proposing to make You a full partner in both websites. I will handle content and sales, You are the programming brain. An example of the upheaval is to be found by using Google to see what's happening in New York. Just type Occupy Wall Street and you will see how we can both place ourselves ahead of a massive anger and desire for deep change here in America and in Europe. The problem is there is no focus. So, here's how I propose to change the political and economic landscape. We have in the United States the ability to "write in" candidates at all levels of government, from the President on down to the local mayor. But no one has used the internet to complete this task at the highest levels of government. This is my proposal. I own the domain name egovern.us. I want it to be a "political" facebook where people can focus their anger in creating their answers to the problems both political and economic that that we all face. We will vote "like" or "dislike" on the thousands of platforms, agendas and ideas. And when the cream rises to the top, we will do write in campaigns for the winners of our “online” election for President in the key battleground states to start, and then, eventually all 50 States! The charge is $30 per year to register the site and participate in the “like” or” “dislike” voting. Think about it, America electing its National Leaders from their computers, their laptops, their iphones. I see millions joining! This will be the world’s first “electronic” electorate. This is our future. Please take it seriously. Be willilng even to die for it and risk everything to bring it to pass. My particular agenda is found in the site: goldmoneyparty.com. Please review it carefully. GoldMoneyParty.com will submit itself to be voted up or down as well. But I want a 3 by 3 forced follow me matrix with full pay on all spillovers. It costs $300 to join goldmoneyparty.com. You are required to find three others to join, you than cycle and earn $300. When your 3 recruits each cycle by getting their three each they are forced by the computer to come back home to you and when they do you make $300 again. This continues to infinity. An example of such a plan is to be found at the website: killgrocerybill.com. I want you to help me monetize GoldMoneyParty.com should we win the vote of the people, and offer our service to the “winner” of our electronic election. For once, those who protest can be paid for their time and effort, and at last find the eternal employment they seek in their hearts. I am proposing to you that You become full partners with me on both websites. If interested, please fedex documents drawn by a lawyer in your country that you trust. Also, please set up a business paypal account that only you and I can access. I want to split profits 50 50 between Us and both of US to have access to the paypal account at all times. I will handle all the content, video production and marketing on my end. You are the accounting brain. Let’s be different than all the rest. Join Me! Now!
I'm sorry, I wanted to follow this group but the vast majority of what I just read is hogwash. If this is what this movement is about then count me out.
Can you tell us why? Seriously, i think we want to understand each other here.
Ok. Your counted out. Goodbye.
"Don't be afraid of hard work, discipline, etc". I'd say occupying a public square, camping out in the rain and cold, spreading the movement nationally through guerilla media counts as hard work and discipline. Hard work and discipline are what committed political organizers do, it's not the exclusive domain of Leninist parties.
we should not pay attention to this fake left neo-liberal pronto-fascist.
If there is substance to your criticism you are going to have to present it. Its not the person that matters, but the words and ideas presented by the person. In a movement without leaders, no one needs to worry about someone's secret agenda. Critically assessing ideas presented is what matters.
So... if you have a criticism. level it. But ad-hominem arguments are meaningless.
I think you're quite wrong about this. Clearly he's spoken directly against both neo-liberalism and proto-fascism. You must be claiming that either he is secretly one, or that he is unknowingly one. To me, these claims seem to require evidence. This ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_GD69Cc20rw ) should serve as a basic introduction to Zizek's focus on the proletariat, which seems, to me, to exclude him from any kind of deregulatory idealism or authroitarian idealism.
I think he is here to confuse and de-rail.
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2011/aug2011/zize-a27.shtml
I still think you should actually read or watch him. Anyway, here's a quote from his actual article ( http://www.lrb.co.uk/2011/08/19/slavoj-zizek/shoplifters-of-the-world-unite ) rather than the spun summary of it.
"The fact that the rioters have no programme is therefore itself a fact to be interpreted: it tells us a great deal about our ideological-political predicament and about the kind of society we inhabit, a society which celebrates choice but in which the only available alternative to enforced democratic consensus is a blind acting out. Opposition to the system can no longer articulate itself in the form of a realistic alternative, or even as a utopian project, but can only take the shape of a meaningless outburst. What is the point of our celebrated freedom of choice when the only choice is between playing by the rules and (self-)destructive violence?"
It seems clear to me that he's making exactly the point that our own movement has made, that non-violence and direction are absolutely critical to remaining for the people. Without these, we invite derailing from consumerists who just want to loot and pillage.
noted. I'll investigate & read further.
Wow that sounds kinda fancy.. good job.. ha
it's also pretty fancy that in "shoplifters of the world unite" he considers the the working class "beasts". Good job. ha ha
That is a TOTAL mis-characterization. Shoplifters of the World Unite is a criticism of Capitalism and the current Left not of legitimate working class anger. He says that in the current system where both the right and the left work as hard as they can to insure capitalism continues, the only outlet for anger against capitalism is through bursts of violence. He says that an organized left would channel working class anger toward an actual restructuring of society and not doom it to failure in hopeless rioting. THAT IS WHY HE SUPPORTS OCCUPY WALL STREET. It is the organized left that was lacking in London when the riots occurred. He does not condemn the rioters he believes that it was capitalism and the Left (or lack thereof) that ACTUALLY caused the riots.
I'd say that's a bit of a mischaracterization even though I wasn't a fan of that essay either. Zizek doesn't have many good things to say about the Egyptian uprising or the Spanish Indignados. I'm curious why he thinks OWS is different.
I haven't been a fan of everything he has said in the past either, most of it is unclear. Here, his speech is great. In other talks, essays, and lectures, his ideas are mixed and unclear or something that I agree with. For example, he was said that pulling out of these wars is too easy of an answer. Well, the alternative is an indefinite war that is bankrupting us and destroying Iraq and Afghanistan. We are losing in Afghanistan. Our leaders learned nothing from Vietnam. We pulled out of Vietnam and we need to do the same. As for his take on the riots in England, he didn't seem to get the inequality in England. Sure those riots were violent and shouldn't have happened. However, riots like those happen in times of gross inequality. THat's just a historical fact. I am happy he came to say some nice things to the people today, and we can leave it at that. I'm more a fan of philosophers who continue the tradition of the Enlightenment and I don't think of reason as the enemy. I find post-modern philosophers muddled and not very cogent in their analysis of the world. Noam Chomsky always delivers.
Zizek hates post-modern philosophers as well. All of his work comes out of a re-appropriation of the enlightenment, most importantly Hegel, and a re-reading of Lacan as a structuralist instead of as a post-structuralist.
I'd like to hear him speak on the differentiation as well. It seems to me that what makes us unique is our place in wall street rather than at DC and the ideology it is symbolic of. I think the DC movement is important as well of course, as are all the others, but there is a wisdom to being at wall street close to the financial industry and the control of wealth we are fighting against. It's not clear that the rest of the recent world movements and Arab spring are as acutely aware of the problem of capitalism.
A particular take on capitalism wasn't Zizek's problem with the Arab Spring and the Indignados. He is critical of all these movement's lack of what he sees as an apparatus to seize power and not just criticize it.
Okay, that makes sense. It also makes me think we should look at having some kind of teach in with people who were involved in those movements so that we can learn from their successes and failures at generating useful apparatus.
Zizek's believes, as I understand it, in an organized party based on early Leninist principles. So I don't quite know what to make of his statement that he is a "communist only in the sense of the commons".
The possibility of seizing power from the state is a whole other topic and one that should be discussed. However, I'm not sure if it's what OWS is about at the moment.
Agreed. We need more numbers and an education apparatus before we have a political (in the sense of state power) apparatus.
State power could be achieved organically. And from a survival stand point, I think we first need local police on our side. City governments could also be found to be sympathetic. Perhaps not NYC (at first) but certainly here where I am in Oakland.
Yea, the police deal is important and complicated. I feel like here in New York, the selection bias is so insane that the sort of psychology and education that our cops have (or at least the ones that get assigned to leadership roles at the protest) make them lost causes. Similar things about local government here.
If we could get delegations of police and local politicians from other places coming to New York to speak out and show solidarity, the effect might be quite powerful.
Perhaps from Wisconsin?
Yea, that's where I'm from; I guess those are the police that come to mind (Madison and La Crosse cops are like the antithesis of NYC cops).
Fiengold could probably be talked into mustering up some folks.
Maybe the district that elected Kucinich could be important as well.
That sounds promising. Good luck to you.