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Forum Post: Finish

Posted 12 years ago on Nov. 20, 2011, 5:31 p.m. EST by widdles55 (16)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

I got what I came for. take care :)



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[-] 3 points by RedJazz43 (2757) 12 years ago

I'm 68 years old. I've been involved in social movements since 1964. OWS is the most ego free movement I've ever seen. That doesn't mean it's perfect. It's just expodentially better than anything that has preceeded it in terms of ego trips.

[-] 1 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 12 years ago

A protest that;s main beef is the unfair legistlation that has been passed, and that refuses to become political, is bound to be pretty laid back.

[-] 1 points by RedJazz43 (2757) 12 years ago

A protest that;s main beef is the unfair legistlation that has been passed, and that refuses to become political, is bound to be pretty laid back.

Take a look at the top of this page. It says The world wide revolution continues! We are a revolutionary movement. At least that's what it says at the very top of this web site. That's either a serious proposition or it is hyperbole. If it is hyperbole that it ought to be expunged, but I don't see the people who think it is hyperbole being very successful at expunging the notion. So, we are a revolutionary movement.

Of course most Americans are not now revolutionary, but revolutionaries are patient, oddly much more patient than those in the movement who would be satisfied with a few paltry pieces of legislation, a Constitution Amendement or the changes of a few faces in Congress. That all doesn't strike me as particularly revolutionary.

Of course this may take years, or decades or perhaps serveral lifetimes. Patience is a revolutionary virtue. The world wide revolution continues! Long live the revolution! Solidarity forever!

[-] 1 points by rockyracoon2 (276) 12 years ago

agree well said

[-] 1 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 12 years ago

The entire global economy is being taken over by central bankers. Time is your number one enemy. Patience was fine in 1985.

[-] 1 points by RedJazz43 (2757) 12 years ago

Yeah, but you're just talking about what ultimately will amount to a few palry reforms, not a revolution. Patience is necessary. There will be ups and downs. We may at one point even have to face a genuinely fascist state, but we are not there yet and I don't wish it on us. I'm just trying to get some perspective here on what we are trying to do, how difficult it is and how long it will take. In the mean time we need to take join in the struggle including even the tragedies of the struggle. It's all part of building a new, just and democratic world.

[-] 1 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 12 years ago

I agree with the ups and downs. But I also know,personally, myself included, many people involved who are frustrated with the lack of sense of urgency by the group as a whole.

Too much chit chat, too much focus of how to run a camp, too much worrying about parks and police.

Not enough effort on messaging and getting out into the communities and communicating.

[-] 1 points by RedJazz43 (2757) 12 years ago

The fact that we think our struggle will take at least years does not in the least negate our sense of urgency. Some stuff is hard to work out though and we have to be patient about it. Figuring out how to run an occupation is important. They are, after all our models for a new society. If we can't run a camp how are we going to run a city, a state, a nation, or the world?

[-] 1 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 12 years ago

But, whenever things like this are set up, you set the tone and the culture at the beginning. I just think its being set up as too slugish and slow, but thats just my opinion.

[-] 1 points by RedJazz43 (2757) 12 years ago

If you think things are going too slow in the OWS movement, look in a mirror, join an occupation and speed things up. We are all leaders.

[-] 1 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 12 years ago

Very true, and I think its a very good learning experience for many.

[-] 1 points by RedJazz43 (2757) 12 years ago

I think that running an occupation is a good learning experience for all of us. Among other things, there are no class distinctions at the occupations.

[-] 1 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 12 years ago

Its good managerial experience, and good political experience too.

[-] 1 points by RedJazz43 (2757) 12 years ago

As there are no class distinctions within OWS, the notion of "managerial experience" isn't exactly appropriate. It smack of hierarchy. We really need a whole new vocabulary. This is one of the reasons why process at the GAs is so important. No doubt we really don't have it right yet in terms of democratic practice. On the other hand Robert's rules were not handed down carved in granite with Moses from Mt. Sinai. They are the human invention of human beings and nothing should be fettishized as having been "completed." Democracy is a process and a discovery process. We are all leaders. Solidarity forever!

[-] 1 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 12 years ago

Wow, managerial experience isnt practical or happening? Have you been to any of these gatherings?

[-] 1 points by RedJazz43 (2757) 12 years ago

What I am saying is that I think the whole notion of managerialism is inherently hierarchal and elitist, though, of course, not everybody would necessarily agree with me about that. That doesn't mean that the community doesn't need to be managed, but since everybody is equal and everybody is a leader the whole notion of management is fundamentally different than you would find in virtually any other setting.

And of course I have been to many, many GAs. Frankly, with so many occupations in so many places around the nation it really concerns me that so many people on this forum who claim to be supporters of OWS have never been to a GA. I do realize that people have busy lives. They have jobs to go to and families to raise and some people have disabilities. But nearly everybody has two days a week off and I have seen people in wheel chairs and with assisted breathing at OWS.

I think everybody who says that they really care about OWS should take 24 hours out of their busy lives and visit the closest occupation. Really hang out there for a day. But if your time is really limited at least try to go to a GA where all the decisions are made. Then when you get home try to spend at least an hour or two a week at your closet occupation. That is the best way to support the movement. If there is no occupation within commuting distance. Send out a twitter and face book message, contact your friends. Set up a meeting. At the first GA make sure you schedule the next one. Look in a mirror. We are all leaders.

[-] 1 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 12 years ago

No kidding. Ive been to about 20 of them in the Tampa area, and many more just during the day, spending the night.

Managing is in the family, the household, and yes....duh...GA's and just day to day managings of a camp. If there was no managing, everybody would literally just sit there.

This type of fear in anything closely related to what some deem as "elitist", things as basic as MANAGING, is a serious detriment to getting things running smooth.

Ive literally run into people who refuse to speak on a single issue, for fear of saying somehting that someone may not like. A one on one conversation mind you. If we are all "leaders" than that means we are all managers. What do you think leaders do? Sit around and suggest/plan/execute NOTHING? Which city are you closest too?


[-] 2 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 12 years ago

Welcome to Ameirca. Why do you think the media has such an easy time playing everyone.

[-] 1 points by widdles55 (16) 12 years ago


[-] 1 points by KnaveDave (357) 12 years ago

"unable to make any headway"???

You have to be kidding. When has any movement spawned hundreds, if not thousands, of similar movements all over the globe, involving probably a million people or more in just two months? That's no headway???

If you mean that they haven't changed the political system yet. Of course not. That takes a lot of pressure and time to change such entrenched positions backed by BILLIONS of dollars in financiers. The only way that will happen is if the million marchers around the world continue to grow until the pressure on politicians to make things work right becomes overwhelming.

As one who has read maybe a hundred of the topics on this post, amy of them from start to finish, I have not seen that many egotistical arguments. I think you're just on a search-and-destroy mission, hoping from the outset to discredit the movement.

--Knave Dave http://TheGreatRecession.info/blog

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 12 years ago

and who the hell are you? who cares what you think? just because no one takes you serious and you get your feelings hurt, don't come here whining about it.

[-] 1 points by Faithntruth (997) 12 years ago

Im sorry your feelings were hurt, but dont condemn all for a few. When sameone calls you a name, call em out on it. And dont get upset if you dont know something... No one knows everything. I wont discuss economics because i know i dont know squat and wouldnt be able to recognize bs or have an intelligent conversation about it. If you want to know something ask...people will respond. Or look it up yourself, because people can be wrong and they can lie for whatever reason. But throwing egg on the group because a handful of people got you upset is not going to help you or them... Best to you

[-] 1 points by widdles55 (16) 12 years ago

The group is one whole, if there is one rotten egg, the whole place is going to reak.

[-] 1 points by Faithntruth (997) 12 years ago

Well, looks like you have your mind made up and set in concrete. So long...

[-] 0 points by gawdoftruth (3698) from Santa Barbara, CA 12 years ago

you are just pointing out a massive flaw in your straw man representation; which is detached from the reality of what we are actually thinking, so piss off.

Further more, everything about your post is egoic. And last of all, you offer no solutions and no content, just more trolling garbage.


I have been active here since the very beginning, and since the very beginning I have been trying to make some core points. These points clearly have not been digested or fully understood by the mob, and so I'm going to try to make a further attempt here again.

  1. Merely protesting in the streets will not bring change. In fact merely protesting in the streets is in fact a means to the end of avoiding the real work of a revolution, which consists of the evolutionary solutions, answers, problem solving process, and new political alignment we create.
  2. This forum is absolutely disorganized. It won't be read by most people and it won't and can't function as a core organizational system.
  3. Back at the very start of this, I petitioned the admin to add multiple sub forums and a wiki. Multiple sub forums were promised but have never arrived. I think that this tells us that the intention actually of this forum is message control and containment. The entire purpose really of this forum has always been to keep us spinning in disorganization. We are hanging out on a forum that expressly exists to actually keep us confused and disorganized.
  4. The real work of a revolution isn't going to happen on forums, it needs to happen in a much more organized fashion using collaborative software.
  5. The assorted other details about how to collaborate, how to work open source direct democracy, how to focus in on science instead of isms, how to become hyper rational about this, are details which are essential and crucial, without which we can predict the movement to fail.
  6. Technically speaking we are not 99 percent, we are one tenth of one percent attempting to represent the 99 percent. Our core mission must be to communicate to and with the 99 percent, and get them to join us. This forum will not accomplish that and neither will any of the other main websites.
  7. You can follow other people out to other wikis and other websites, where they will try to get you to get involved with what they want and their program, but frankly speaking, there is no other website and no other operation out there which understands the complexities involved with meaningful organization. In short, everyones being led to get involved here there and everywhere else, scattering the movement in directions which ultimately do not gain us critical mass, criticial momentum, or critical systemic lucidity.
  8. I have managed to get a wiki put up and have already put on that wiki evolutionary details which make it more organized than anything else. I can't do this alone. There are 10 or so wikis now out there, most of which were created in response to my pleas for a wiki, and several of which are in domains owned and operated by some corporation, (wikia, etc) And which we can thus assume will simply be closed, shut down, or deleted if they become useful to the movement.
  9. Probably at least half of the invites you have to go participate at some other site are people who are scamming everyone to waste time and energy, distort the movement, co opt it, and etc. When you walk off into a closet ask yourself how you know that the closet isn't created by some fed, or by some republican, or by some democrat, in order to sway things in their direction.
  10. The only meaningful strategic option we have for real change in this country is to create a new third party, and take every political office in this country.
  11. Once that is done, we can have an article 5 convention. If we have an article 5 convention before getting rid of the oligachs, that just opens the genie from the bottle for them to abuse that process with their corruption and evil.

For these reasons, I beg of you to please immediately join me on the wiki. We need to have all of these details and all of these ideas put together in an organized fashion, rather than posted in a long scrawl which will never be read.








[-] 1 points by AFarewellToKings (1486) 12 years ago

thanks for the continued effort. Really! Because i saw this wiki and bookmarked it, but kept coming back here to spin my wheels. Not sure why. I also think the only way to proceed is with an independent third party. I've been here for weeks pointing to the 99% Declaration but I feel like a voice in the wilderness, words lost in a cacophony. It's frustrating and disheartening.

So what do i do first? create an account?

I've received a lot of positive feedback: here's an example from last night:


[-] 1 points by gawdoftruth (3698) from Santa Barbara, CA 12 years ago

create an account, and then start creating pages and posting everything from here you think is important over to there.

funny stream of words i bet i will laugh and cry once i click and read.


[-] 0 points by widdles55 (16) 12 years ago

You are only proving my point, how can I offer a solution to people not willing to hear my opinion?

[-] 1 points by gawdoftruth (3698) from Santa Barbara, CA 12 years ago

how can you offer a solution when you don't have one? And what good is an ignorant opinion? You don't have ANYTHING to offer us but noise, drivel, and nonsense.

Your advice is useless, period.

In fact its just one long run on ad hom, twisting and spinning and using assorted rhetorical devices, straw man arguments, and other BS. You are a liar and a spin doctor before you can even get to making any other point.

[-] 0 points by widdles55 (16) 12 years ago

Perhaps that is my solution.

[-] 0 points by widdles55 (16) 12 years ago

Does anyone out there see what I am trying to say? Is this really all you have to offer Occupy movement?

If that's the way you see it Gawdoftruth, then that's your problem. From my perspective Im trying to help.

[-] 3 points by 1776alloveragain (67) 12 years ago

I understand your point. However, you come off as arrogant when you say you just started posting here and now you're criticizing everyone already instead of offering better ideas to fix things. No one has all the answers, and debates and emotions will run high naturally in any movement like this one. It's naive to think everyone on here is going to be in the greatest place when their homes, jobs, pensions, and health insurance were stolen from them by the wealth elite. That's why we are here.

Watch Inside Job and see exactly how our government and banks sold us out: http://www.movie2k.to/movie-525565-Inside-Job-film.html

Telling us we are divided doesn't unite us. If you want to unite, inspire with ideas, encouragement and knowledge. If you want to further divide, keep criticizing the movement.

[-] 2 points by widdles55 (16) 12 years ago

Your right 1776, that's probably the most insightful piece of information I have received since being here.

Im, more or less, getting a feel for who I am dealing with here is all Im trying to do.

[-] 1 points by 1776alloveragain (67) 12 years ago

That's respectable. No hard feelings. A lot of people are so edgy because as you will soon see, if you try to create a post about some ideas you have for positive change, you will get a whole bunch of anti-OWS people saying ludicrous things like:

"Get a job you lazy bum! Leave this country you marxist, socialist, un-American traitor! I work hard for my money and you are just an entitled, spoiled brat who wants a handout!"

Pretty soon you'll see why people are wound up. It's hard to ignore those individuals but it's certainly a virtue. I just tell everyone to watch Inside Job before they debate with me because that movie says it all.

Here is a post of mine with some demands: http://occupywallst.org/forum/here-are-some-demands-remove-everyone-from-congres/#comment-397102

[-] 1 points by widdles55 (16) 12 years ago

The tension is thick enough to cut with a knife here. I did my time in the Marines, I worked my ass off to get where I am today.

What it sounds like to me is some sort of better forum for discussion with topical sections as apposed to one giant mixing pot of emotions/ideas is needed. What do you think of this? Get some more organization to these discussions.