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Forum Post: What will the revolution look like?

Posted 2 years ago on March 20, 2012, 6:55 p.m. EST by RedJazz43 (2757)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

I don't know what the revolution will look like, but I think I know what it won't look like. It won't be about tort reform or campaign finance reform, or electing more Democrats, or Constitutional ammendements. It's only my hunch, but I think it will be about building more Occupations. It will most certainly be about holding ground and maintaining a presence in lower Manhattan to which the movement world wide looks to for leadership.

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75 Comments


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[-] 3 points by DemandTheGoodLifeDotCom (3213) from New York, NY 2 years ago

The revolution, or any change, won't come from occupations. Protesting a problem will never change anything. If you want change or revolution you need to demand change or demand revolution.

The only successful strategy is to organize around SPECIFIC DEMANDS.

The Arab Spring didn't just occupy. They occupied in order to make their demand for regime change more effective.

OWS is not demanding regime change, or revolution or anything else. So it is pointless.

[-] 5 points by pasteurize (19) 2 years ago

OWS is like a car company that talks about how much it sucks to walk instead of actually making cars.

What this country needs is a radical left movement to combat how far right society is.

[-] 3 points by deviantmuse (13) 2 years ago

I'm with you. I'm still trying to figure out how sitting in a park without demanding some kind of change will accomplish anything.

OWS is bizarre.

Talking about how bad cancer is will not cure cancer. Talking about unemployment will not employ anyone.Talking about poverty won't eliminate poverty.

[+] -7 points by DKAtoday (25072) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Beginning the discussion and spreading awareness is a start and the corrupt do not like it, not one little bit.


But you already knew that.

deviantmuse

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[-] 1 points by deviantmuse (13) 2 years ago

If you don't have a plan to fix anything, what exactly are you spreading awareness about?

Are you really saying that without OWS people would not know there was unemployment and poverty?

You really think the best way to employ people is to sit in the park and tell others that there is unemployment?

If you are not helping to fix something, what are you accomplishing?

[+] -9 points by DKAtoday (25072) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Go ahead try to Play it down try to Belittle it. You know as well as I that this is a protest against the criminal practice of wallstreet and the blind eye being turned to it by our government.

[-] 2 points by deviantmuse (13) 2 years ago

What crime did wallstreet commit? This is the way capitalism works. They didn't do anything criminal.

I thought OWS was about wealth inequality. The 1% vs 99%.

[-] 1 points by FriendlyObserverB (1871) 2 years ago

Yep, all of that and more.

[-] 0 points by B76RT (-357) 2 years ago

the biggest crime of all,................they contributed a lot of money in 2008 to get obama in office.

[-] 0 points by TheMisfit (48) 2 years ago

Really? Just by glancing down the "news" section of this site, it would seem that OWS is about being against anything and everything except Wall Street. Let's see, what has OWS been up to lately?:

Saturday, March 24, 5:00pm-8:00pm Disrupt Dirty Power! United Nations Plaza, 405 E. 42nd Street

Occupy Wall Street and allied organizations will kick off a global month of action leading up to Earth Day, April 22, to connect the dots between the 1% and the destruction of the planet. Mock corporate polluters will set up shop, and the 99% will take them on!

http://nycga.net/events/event/disrupt-dirty-power Sunday, March 25, 12:00-2:00pm Studying May Day and the General Strike – w/ Ruth Milkman

Liberty Square Organized with the Immigrant Worker Justice working group. Facilitated by Occupy University, as part of a series of teach-ins about May Day.

Today at 6pm, Union Square: Demand Justice for Trayvon Martin! Posted 1 day ago on March 21, 2012, 6:07 a.m. EST by OccupyWallSt

OWS Calls for NYPD Commissioner Ray Kelly To Resign

Posted 2 days ago on March 20, 2012, 9:08 a.m. EST by OccupyWallSt

Wednesday, March 14, 11:00am-2:00pm 1%ers for Romney Rally Outside Fundraiser Luncheon for Romney Outside Waldorf Astoria Hotel 301 Park Ave (at 50th St)

Thursday, March 15, 8:00pm-10:00pm Occupy Horizontal Pedagogy Workshop 725 5th Ave at 56th St, Public Atrium

Saturday, March 17, 11:00-1pm Parents for Occupy Wall Street - #M17 Call to Action: The Children´s Chalkupation Liberty Plaza / Zuccotti

Saturday, March 17, 3:00pm - 4:50pm Left Forum Panel - Occupy Your Work Place 1 Pace Plaza, 5th floor, room W503

And so on and so on. Just look at the bankers trembling on Wall Street for the fear of their money losing influence on DC. Either get focused or get out.

[+] -7 points by DKAtoday (25072) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

You have a problem with the movements against corruption - addressing all corruption?

I think it is you who needs a reality check.

All of the issues you listed above are related.

WallStreet is the very visible tip of the iceberg of corruption.

And as such is a rallying point and a rallying cry.

Corruption is running wild in this country and around the world.

If you can not recognize that reality - Well then your about as smart as a box of rocks.

No offense intended - Rocks.

[-] 0 points by TheMisfit (48) 2 years ago

I see the corruption and I also see where it starts. DC writes the laws that exempts the people that send them the most money. Why on Earth would Wall Street change their ways when the politicians protect them? DC is where the change needs to start, but you would see that if you were smarter than a box of used tampons. No offense intended used tampons.

[+] -6 points by DKAtoday (25072) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

1 points by TheMisfit (34) 2 minutes ago

Fitting username.


The ill gotten gains of the corrupt are being used to buy the government support.

This is not a separate issue. It is tied together.

Hence the movement on Citizens United to remove person hood from corporations.

Hence OSTA the movement to clean-up Legislation.

Hence the movement to remove the corrupted from political office. Example #1 Walker and friends in Wisconsin.

This is all happening now this is all encompassing in it's scope.

Rock head.

[-] 1 points by TheMisfit (48) 2 years ago

And what has OWS done to change any of that? The Walker recall is fully funded and enacted by the unions, no one other than the state of Montana is doing crap about Citizens United and any politician who actually wants to address the corruption is called a kook or redistricted out of a seat. And I ask again, what has OWS done about any of this? Used tampon head.

[+] -6 points by DKAtoday (25072) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

SFB

The movements against corruption are world wide and many give credit to OWS for giving them the inspiration to join the movement in standing-up against corruption.

Thank you for playing.

Please come again.

[-] 0 points by TheMisfit (48) 2 years ago

I thought the Arab Spring, you know, the movements where people actually made a difference, motivated people to fight for change. OWS has done nothing but be a joke on late night TV. There are people in this world who are truly oppressed who have, and are, laying their lives down for something better while OWS sits in parks bitching about "corporate personhood". Then you have the audacity to claim that OWS has had some sort of positive influence in this world over those who are bleeding for freedom as we speak? get over yourself and wake up. OWS was and is a joke and it is going to remain a joke while people like you sit back and take credit for doing nothing more than shitting in a park.

[+] -6 points by DKAtoday (25072) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Apparently you wish OWS Occupy & the 99% movements were a joke.

It would go a long way to understanding your attempts to put-down or belittle the movements.

You are a misfit here as you are a troll supporting the corrupt greedy status-quo.

Your mask is removed.

Thank you for playing.

Please come again.

[-] 0 points by TheMisfit (48) 2 years ago

Well, that was quite the defense of your position that somehow you have been the inspiration for freedom movements around the world. How could I have gotten it so wrong? Your drum circles and public waste displays have been a shining beacon to freedom lovers across the world. Oh, then you said I am a troll for corrupt, greedy status quo types. So true, you have exposed me. I cannot play anymore as your park dwelling self has put me in my place with your platitudes and assumptions. Well played Mr. DKAtoday. the world is a better place as long as people are sitting in parks, bitching about money and jails and 9/11 and wars and so on. Heaven forbid anyone in OWS ever have to suffer real oppression as they would simply roll over and wait for a real person to step in and save them.

[+] -6 points by DKAtoday (25072) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

You would prefer blind marchers like you.

So Sorry.

NOT

[-] 1 points by FriendlyObserverB (1871) 2 years ago

Evil flourishes when good men do nothing.

You are right DKA.

[+] -7 points by DKAtoday (25072) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Thanks just trying to slap down misinformation and attempts at belittling.

[-] 2 points by deviantmuse (13) 2 years ago

You should be more open to constructive criticism. There is a reason why the primary concern with OWS is its lack of direction and demands.

[-] 1 points by po6059 (72) 2 years ago

their " direction" is to creat civil and violent unrest. that's their purpose. that's why they were created and backed by soros.

[-] 3 points by RedJazz43 (2757) 2 years ago

A revolution seeks to overturn the ruling class. It makes no demands on them except perhaps---Go Away!.

If you don't think OWS is revolutionary then you have never been to an Occupation or a general assembly.

[-] 1 points by DemandTheGoodLifeDotCom (3213) from New York, NY 2 years ago

I have not been to an occupation or a GA. But how effective would you consider OWS in getting out their message if you can only find out what they are trying to accomplish by occupying or sitting through a meeting?

I have never been to a tea party rally, but I know exactly what they are trying to accomplish: Get government out of the economy. The entire tea party is organized around achieving that goal, and because of that, they managed to change Congress and direct legislation.

Because OWS has not organized around a goal, like the tea party and every other social movement, they have not accomplished anything.

The demand for a dictator to go away is A VERY SPECIFIC DEMAND!!

In what way is OWS revolutionary?

I know OWS was started by a socialist group in Canada. Replacing capitalism with socialism is certainly a revolution. Is this what you mean? My understanding is that OWS moved away from that. Nowhere on the OWS website or in any media interview did I see OWS calling for socialism to replace capitalism.

[-] 1 points by RedJazz43 (2757) 2 years ago

I don't think learning about OWS is about sitting through a meeting, though that could be part of it. The point is to learn about the spirit of the movement, and that can only happen by being there. It might mean sitting through a meeting, but maybe not.

Many commentators have pointed out that the most important thing about OWS is that people got up away from their computers, went out into the streets and actually, physically met each other. There is no substitute for that and it is not at all like a traditional demonstration. I say this as someone with nearly 50 years of experience in social movements. I think for most people I have met a couple of hours at an occupation is truely a life changing event.

One of the things you learn about OWS by being there is precisely how revolutionary it is and what it means to be revolutionary, which ultimately cannot be adequately explained. It has to be experienced. Revolutions, after all, really have no demands to make on their adversaries except, perhaps: GO AWAY!

Actually, socialists of any kind are not all that influential in OWS. Anarchists and people influenced by the anarchist intellectual tradition are much more influential in OWS than are socialists.

While this web site does not call for socialism, it does call for revolution as does every occupation I have been to and I've been to more than half a dozen. The only political document so far put forward by Occupy Wall Street has been the Declaration of the Occupation of New York City, passed by the New York City General Assembly about a week or so after the occupation began. It has a list of more than 20 grievances the sum total of which can be reasonably construed as being anticorporate.

Demanding that a whole system go away is a good deal more complicated than getting rid of a particular individual, but that said, OWS has called for Ray Kelly's dismissal.

[-] 0 points by DemandTheGoodLifeDotCom (3213) from New York, NY 2 years ago

My point is that people already know people are unemployed and that income is allocated unequally. We don't need a movement to raise awareness of those issues. We need a movement that forces the system to solve those issues.

If OWS cannot, as you say, even explain what their revolution is (let alone how it will help anyone), then it is worse off than I expected.

[-] 1 points by RedJazz43 (2757) 2 years ago

Some OWS activists want to make demands on the system. Others take the position that making any demands on the system legitimates the very system we oppose. Right now the consensus in OWS is with the latter group. I personally don't have a hard line either way. It is important to realize that OWS is a movement barely in its infancy and as such it is important not to expect too much of it, except for it to grow. Right now it is enough that it says to the ruling elites: ENOUGH! BASTA!

OWS can go in many directions. It can grow or shrink, though even if it shrinks I do not think it will die because the grievances it has are systemic, not cyclical and as long as they do not go away, neither will the movement short of the establishment of a police state. It could go in a reformist direction. The reformists, after all, are a majority of the movement. I don't think that likely however given how poorly organized the reformists are. It is more likely that it will move in a more coherent revolutionary direction though that too could mean that it is either more successful at appealing to the masses or increasingly sectarian. Only time will tell.

[-] 1 points by DemandTheGoodLifeDotCom (3213) from New York, NY 2 years ago

And so the status quo continues to win through divide and conquer. So long as the opposition remains unorganized around changing the status quo, the status quo continues to rack up more victories.

Society needs leadership and solidarity around a plan to implement a radical left agenda because it is only a radical left agenda that will end poverty, unemployment and inequality. Only the radical left has a plan for a society that works well for everyone as a right. And only a plan, leadership, and solidarity can get things done.

[-] 1 points by RedJazz43 (2757) 2 years ago

Of course the status quo continues to win. Really there is not much to divide and conquer. The most generous estimates are there are only about 20,000 occupiers nationally. We can't even begin to think about winning until there are 20 or 30 million of us occupying. That will probably take decades and perhaps several lifetimes. And don't tell me we don't have time. I'm 69 years old and I've been waiting a lifetime for a movement like this and thank goodness for it.

And what exactly is a radical left agenda about? Is it about reforming capitalism or overthrowing it? That question has yet to be resolved and awaits the growth of the movement.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

still waiting for the democrat or republican to present their platform

myself

[-] 2 points by DemandTheGoodLifeDotCom (3213) from New York, NY 2 years ago

I'll sum it up for you: more of the same, very little, if any, change.

None of them have a plan to employ everyone or raise the incomes of Americans who are poor or struggling which now makes up 50% of the population.

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[-] 1 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 2 years ago

Corruption only flees when it is forced to. Money is the fuel that feeds the corruption. Starve it and change WILL happen. Any corporation, special interest group, or individual that supports this corruption must be immediately and completely boycotted until they stop.

[-] 1 points by DemandTheGoodLifeDotCom (3213) from New York, NY 2 years ago

What corruption and what does that have to do with OWS's 99% wealth inequality meme?

[-] 2 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 2 years ago

The corruption in our government. Political inequality is always present with wealth inequality. The two support each other and grow until they collapse or are overthrown.

[-] 1 points by DemandTheGoodLifeDotCom (3213) from New York, NY 2 years ago

What you most likely call corruption is just a legal part of how our system works. And corruption has nothing to do with inequality.

What the Great Depression demonstrated more than anything else is that the system will never collapse. Capitalism will always be constantly bailed out by government.

The only way to change the system is to organize people around the strategy of overthrowing the system. Unfortunately, OWS is not doing that.

The opposition, the advocates of inequality, are organized around strengthening the system and perpetuating the inequality. Complaining about them is not going to stop them. They are winning and will continue to win so long as people only complain and do not take action.

[-] 1 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 2 years ago

Corruption is at the core of inequality. Accepting money, vacations, extravagant meals, and box seats at sporting events is bribery. If a police officer accepted these same gifts from a local drug dealer, wouldn't you say he needs to be removed from his job? Yet when a Representative accepts the same gifts, it's a legal part of the system? When a Senator takes a bribe to put forth legislation that benefits a corporation over the interest of the people he represents, that is corruption, and is one tool used to pry open the wallets of the people to enrich the few. I agree complaining does not make change. Economic force is the best weapon, aimed at all corporations, and special interests who enable this practice.

[-] 1 points by DemandTheGoodLifeDotCom (3213) from New York, NY 2 years ago

The economic system that allocates income through the market process is the cause of inequality, not corruption. Income inequality exists because of capitalism, not because people donate to political campaigns.

[-] 2 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 2 years ago

Income inequality exists because some want an unfair share of the pie. Buying Congress is the lever that shifts the law in their favor.

[-] 1 points by DemandTheGoodLifeDotCom (3213) from New York, NY 2 years ago

The law is responsible for inequality only to the extent that it enforces the market allocation of income. But it is the market that allocates income, not the law.

[-] 1 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 2 years ago

It is the buyers and sellers who determine income. When the employers (buyers) have convinced the employees (sellers) that their labor is not worth much, the buyers prosper at the expense of the sellers. If instead the employees began to value their labor as worth more they would begin to prosper at the employers expense. Employers might counter this by encouraging legislation to open immigration of low wage earners to break the upward trend in wages.

[-] 2 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 2 years ago

Any system is only as corrupt as the people within it

[-] 1 points by epa1nter (4650) from Rutherford, NJ 2 years ago

It is BOTH the structure of capitalism AND corruption that cause income inequality. Although the capitalism creates the structure, as wealth accumulates into the hands of fewer interests, those interests act to accelerate the process and make sure they can do so with impunity. That acceleration is via the process of corruption. When the 1% actually write the laws, as they they are doing in Dodd/Frank, as they did with the repeal of Glass/Steagal, as they are doing in State Houses across the country, in terms of ALEC-authored legislation, we have capitalism and the inevitable corruption that results from it working in concert.

Put another way, if corruption did not exist, the mechanisms of capitalism that inevitably cause inequality would be thwarted, or at least mitigated to the point that income inequality would be minimal. That's done via regulation and income redistribution. Capitalism could still exist, but it would be selectively restricted and supplemented.

Corruption will always exist; sadly, human nature is far from pure. However, through legislation, acting upon that corruption can be made very difficult. Legislation can also correct the inequities inherent to capitalism. Capitalism itself may or may not be in its death throws. But its unfettered form is unsustainable and its collapse must be hasted.

[-] 1 points by DemandTheGoodLifeDotCom (3213) from New York, NY 2 years ago

Petitioning your government for favorable policies is not corruption. Just like it is not corruption for the bottom 97% to want redistribution, it is not corruption for the 3% to get the government not to redistribute. It is just that the top 3% have far more resources than the bottom 97%. So they will have better success at petitioning the government.

You can never reduce inequality in capitalism to the point where society works well for everyone. That kind of redistribution would significantly affect investment and destroy the economy. So capitalism can never be made to work.

[-] 0 points by PopsMauler (182) from Chicago, IL 2 years ago

Because the Arab Spring's protestors all had "specific demands"? Bull, and you know it. They didn't need more than regime change as a demand. They knew what the reality was, and didn't need to mosey around debating to get out and demand it. The key was that people there were still willing to stand up for real change and mobilize.

Sure they've had to go through it more than once, but they are WORKING to fix problems. They've also stuck with it for the long haul.

The solution won't come overnight and neatly outlined for you. This is a democracy in action, it takes a while to come to consensus.

For that matter, I don't see that this burden of demands you're claiming is either solely on OWS or any movement at all. Peaceful protests can and have worked, we wouldn't be seeing the organized response from U.S. government if there was no chance of success.

[-] 1 points by DemandTheGoodLifeDotCom (3213) from New York, NY 2 years ago

The Arab Spring did have specific demands!! Their demand was for regime change. Demanding regime change is MAKING A SPECIFIC DEMAND!!!!!

.

"The solution won't come overnight and neatly outlined for you"

It has for every other social movement. The tea party: get government out of the economy by reducing taxes, reducing size of government and limit business regulation. The civil rights movement: end Jim Crowe by changing and implementing specific laws, Arab Spring: replace dictators with elected officials.

.

"we wouldn't be seeing the organized response from U.S. government if there was no chance of success"

Success to do what!?!

[-] 1 points by PopsMauler (182) from Chicago, IL 2 years ago

Have you ever explored this site for one? The goal IS ultimately regime change through peaceful means. Did you ever check out the home page and it's slogan, "the only solution is global revolution"? Your argument is a red herring, and you bit on my ploy...

A lot of the methodology is already outlined here and at GA's: http://howtooccupy.org/ The documents available in PDF format make a lot clear, I don't see that your argument has any basis.

The tea party... Where were the crackdowns on the teaparty? Never materialized because they are very much a part of the status quo. The civil rights movement is an excellent example. You can't just skirt around my point, we wouldn't be seeing crackdowns at all if this didn't have a chance of succeeding.

Quit playing the fool.

[-] 1 points by DemandTheGoodLifeDotCom (3213) from New York, NY 2 years ago

"The goal IS ultimately regime change through peaceful means."

For the US!?! The US has a regime change every election!! We don't have a dictatorship. This isn't Egypt.

Electing new politicians in a democratic country is not a revolution!

A revolution is changing the economic system or changing the government system.

What specifically does OWS mean by "the only solution is global revolution"? Abolish capitalism? Abolish Congress, the President and Supreme Court?

It certainly does not say what that means on the front page. The only thing it says is that it wants a general assembly in every backyard. Great. So the OWS supports a group of tea partiers gathering in a general assembly talking about how to strengthen an economic system that empowers the 1% by eliminating taxes, regulations and all public support?

You don't see a problem with any of this?

"we wouldn't be seeing crackdowns at all if this didn't have a chance of succeeding."

Succeeding in what!?!?!?!?!

If the tea party occupied parks round the clock, they would have been arrested too. You are kidding yourself if you think the crackdown came because those in power are scared of OWS. Like me and most others, they don't even have a clue what OWS wants.

[-] 1 points by PopsMauler (182) from Chicago, IL 2 years ago

First: we're a republic not a democracy. We vote for officials to make the decisions for us. Get your systems of government straight before you accuse anyone of being clueless...

Second: that is not a regime change at all, but merely a change of possibly 1/3 of the Senate's candidates every two years, and all the Representatives in the House are also up for re-election in that timeframe. Our presidential election is every four years.

A regime change would be as you say a new system of government or economics.

For that matter since when were we offering a candidate for election at all? You're making claims that are simply out of thin air or willfully dishonest. The rest of that garbage isn't even worth responding to.

[-] 1 points by DemandTheGoodLifeDotCom (3213) from New York, NY 2 years ago

Although we are republic, that does not mean we are not democratic. Voting for officials is a representative democracy.

Every 6 years voters do in fact have the opportunity to vote in a complete and total regime change.

You avoided all of my questions.

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[-] 2 points by elf3 (2735) 2 years ago

Awareness - look at all Occupy has accomplished - in less time and less money than it takes Wall Street to put on an ad campaign - Occupy has spread it's message loud and clear- nobody asks what this movement is about anymore the question has turned to what will be done to stop the corruption. Job well done - spread the awareness (once people wake up to the corporate totalitarian state and realize they aren't free - they won't go back to sleep.) Never rest never give up - we are the voice for the 99 percent we are the voice for the people who have none - we are the people who care about you - wallstreet would throw us into anarchy but we want to prevent it before it's too late - we are the ones who know that one percent of the population has stolen the planet's natural abundance and are hording it for themselves and we won't rest until we get it out from their clutches.

[-] 1 points by ancientmariner (275) 2 years ago

You are such a stupid, single-minded fuck. It will be about doing all of those things, or it will be about nothing at all!

[-] 1 points by littlebiggygirl (26) from Hesperia, CA 2 years ago

Tyranny Does Not Rely On Your Opinion To Continue - It Only Requires Your Money. our modern form of revolution - protest - raises awareness but does not change the system. this is because tyranny does not rely on your opinion to continue - it only requires your money. though tax systems are designed to extract money from the apathetic they can be reconstructed into an instrument of liberation for all of us. there is no better way to protest than to limit the amount of money you give the government. www.taxkilla.com

[-] 1 points by francismjenkins (3713) 2 years ago

A real revolution will only be accomplished by moving this beyond the confines of lower Manhattan, because the simple fact is, most people do not live in lower Manhattan (and will not ever live anywhere near lower Manhattan). Awareness ... that's all OWS has accomplished so far, and if it doesn't begin to adhere to its own mantra of "cooperation" ... that's all it will ever accomplish (like for example asking unions if they would like to participate in May day, and post the names of unions that will be in attendance, so we all know that you asked permission and some unions agreed, maybe union officials put it up for a vote, or something that gives us some indication that you're cooperating with other like minded individuals and organizations).

I don't want to attend a meeting where I have to wiggle my fingers to voice my agreement or dissent ... that's not democracy, that's just group think.

[-] 2 points by RedJazz43 (2757) 2 years ago

At his speech at the Left Forum Michael Moore pointed out that the whole world looks to Occupy Wall Street AT Wall Street as the epicenter of the movement. Moore is probably a personal opportunist, but that doesn't make his observation incorrect, nor does it preclude the development of Occupy movement's everywhere else. In fact, it presupposes them.

There is much discussion about "leadership" in OWS, but leadership is not only an individual or group of individuals as for example Mongomery and then Mississippi and the Selma constituted the "center" of the civil rights movement.

Judging from the way I saw the NYPD visciously attack very peaceful demonstrators on Saturday night, I come to the conclusion that there must be a reason for this, that they too realize that Wall Street is the epicenter of capitalist power and that by attempting to be there and to stay there and to grow there we are in exactly the right place. Again, this in no way precludes the rise, growth and development of occupations and general assemblies in the public spaces of every community. All the occupations need each other and learn from each other.

I do not dispute that there is a real crisis in the organizational and decision making processes of OWS, but it is a very, very young movement, barely in its infancy and correcting such problems will require eveyone's active participation.

[-] 1 points by francismjenkins (3713) 2 years ago

I hope you're right dude, I mean seriously, because there's not a single grievance that OWS has listed that I disagree with, not a single one, but I have some issues with the way this whole thing is set up. Nonetheless, I remain supportive, and hopefully some of these problems can be worked out.

[-] 1 points by RedJazz43 (2757) 2 years ago

The important thing is that for everyone who sees themselves as being supportive of OWS to take the next step and become as active in OWS as is possible for them.

[-] 1 points by francismjenkins (3713) 2 years ago

Dude, I marched through Manhattan (or stood in Union Square) half the day yesterday (my legs are killing me right now, obviously I haven't been exercising enough) :)

[-] 0 points by RedJazz43 (2757) 2 years ago

I was in Union Square too and I'm 69 years old. I'm distressed that there are far to many people on this forum that think being on this forum is being active in OWS.

[-] 1 points by francismjenkins (3713) 2 years ago

Damn, now that's the spirit. I'll be the first to admit that since I live in the Hudson Valley, I haven't really been directly involved up until now. I did volunteer with NLG for like two days (I have a JD), but really it's difficult for me to get to Manhattan. The last time I did a NLG thing I arrived late, took the wrong train, ran around NYC, by the time I arrived I was disheveled, sweating my ass off, and overall, I didn't feel like I was bringing my A game (and I don't like to feel that way, particularly in that sort of context).

Nevertheless, I like the fact that OWS is organizing mass protests later in the day. I hope they're working with labor unions to get boots on the ground come May 1st. Also, I think CUNY has something like 200,000 students, if OWS could motivate even 10% of those students to rally ... that would be amazing, 25% of those students, uber-amazing. But let's not forget all those other colleges, both in and near the city. I think if this thing is properly organized, it could draw people from all over NY state, NJ, CT, etc.

When hundreds of thousands of people are marching, we WILL be listed to. I know, from both the march yesterday, and Yankees parades I've attended ... that the NYPD is very good at corralling large crowds, very good (they really do have it down to a science, and I'm also quite sure they use scientists or mathematicians to figure out how to do it, because there's no way that your average cop on the beat can do this sort of planning). So in many respects, it really is a numbers game.

[-] 1 points by pasteurize (19) 2 years ago

So then you are fine with libertarians becoming heavily active so that OWS can be used to push society more towards completely unregulated capitalism?

[-] 1 points by RedJazz43 (2757) 2 years ago

While OWS is very loosely organized and does not have a highly evolved political program, the fact is its leading organizers remain anarchists or people strongly influenced by the anarchist intellectual tradition. There are some libertarians on the margins of OWS, but they really don't amount to much in terms of their influence. Certainly both liberals and socialists are more influential within OWS than are libertarians. In addition, the only political document that OWS has produced, the Declaration of the Occupation of New York City is hardly libertarian in its approach. While not exactly socialist it is clearly left-anti-coporate and anything OWS does is essentially consistent with it. Beyond that just look at the practical manifestations of OWS. It has supported an anti-imperialist agenda, about the only point of convergence with a libertarian program. It has also been strongly and consistently in support of the rights and aims of organized labor, the environmental movement, the women's movement, the black liberation movement, gay rights and other movements whose agenda is not at all consistent with what is today wrongly characterized as libertarianism.

[-] 1 points by pasteurize (19) 2 years ago

But there is nothing stopping OWS from becoming a libertarian movement if it was flooded with Ron Paul supporters?

What do you hope to achieve with OWS?

I believe the left needs to organize around a specific left platform and not compromise on a radical goal otherwise it will continue to get pushed around by the very well organized right.

[-] 1 points by RedJazz43 (2757) 2 years ago

What is stopping it is there are many, many more people on the broad left, from liberals to anarchists than there are Ron Paul supporters. What is stopping it is the movement does not share the values of these folks who have userpted the honorable label of libertarianism from its left wing origins.

What we hope to achieve with OWS is a total transformation of the social system. It will probably take decades and possibly several lifetimes, but if you look at the grievances that is clearly the trajectory.

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[-] -1 points by aflockofdoofi (-18) 2 years ago

Do you folks even look around? No gives a shit about OWS. Most peopl are out living their lives, having fun where they can, enjoying life.

Restaurants are full, profits are up, cars are being bought, more people cared about where Peyton Manning was going than OWS.

[-] 1 points by RedJazz43 (2757) 2 years ago

Virtually every OWS activist I have talked to is very aware of how small and isolated our movement is. Indeed, I personally think the most important discussion we can have is how to grow our movement. But given the nature of decision making in OWS it is unlikely that there will be a single and uniform answer to that question. For me, I encourage people to move from "support" to "participation," as much participation as they are capable of as individuals. For me that means building more and bigger general assemblies and encampments. To me we are in our infancy and that is the stage we are in.

[+] -6 points by DKAtoday (25072) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Peyton Manning is covered by the MSM propaganda machine The movements against corruption are not.

Pull your head out. This economy is still a mess that is teetering on the brink of total collapse.

Go march blindly somewhere else.

We do not buy bullshit yours or anyone Else's.

[-] 1 points by RedJazz43 (2757) 2 years ago

OWS is about a lot more than corruption. It is precisely about a whole system in crisis. At the Left Forum John Holloway turned the logic of the movement on its head. He said that it is us, the masses who are responsible for that crisis and we should be proud of it. When the advocates of austerity accuse us of being lazy we should acknowledge that. Our job, says Holloway, is not to solve the crisis for the 1% but rather to do everything we can to deepen it if we are to bring this rotten system down.

Of course that is not a position uniformly or universally held by OWS. Given how broad it is as a movement the most OWS can do is say NO! BASTA! ENOUGH!

[-] 1 points by jph (2652) 2 years ago

I think we are seeing it; it looks like MORE people coming to the same conclusions as we have. This does not need to be a long messy slog, we only need to get enough people to wake up, and act in there own best interests, and those of their communities.

[-] 1 points by Demian (497) from San Francisco, CA 2 years ago

Hey RedJazz I agree with your sentiments. Have you ever heard of this guy? I'm pretty excited about what he has to say.

http://www.garalperovitz.com/

Here is an op ed piece he did in the New York Times. Check him out. Based on some of your posts I think this kind of thing might intrest you.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/15/opinion/worker-owners-of-america-unite.html?_r=1

[-] 0 points by Secretariat (33) 2 years ago

""NATO is staging "Massacre of Christians in Syria by Muslims", by bringing Al Qaida and other radical Islamists to Syria, in order to initiate a war, where they can nuke Iran, give a lesson to rising China, control Middle East oil resources, and allow some people to print as much money as they wish by using petrodollars, so they can control the society and the world through their wealth and power. This will also allow capitalism to continue by breaking the Eastern and the Socialist spirituality which is growing around the world and which is the biggest threat to capitalist ruling elite. ""

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[-] 0 points by Odin (583) 2 years ago

The main thrust of this movement must remain defiant which includes physical occupations, protest marches, and peaceful civil disobedience. Our recalcitrance to a corrupt political and financial system must be clear. There is plenty of room though for a diversity of tactics...including working from within the system, and boycotting banks, corporations, etc.

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[-] -1 points by Neuwurldodr (744) 2 years ago

December 21, 2012....perhaps?

[-] -1 points by BlackSun (275) from Agua León, BC 2 years ago

What revolution?

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