Forum Post: what if we got rid of money?
Posted 12 years ago on Nov. 22, 2011, 2:03 p.m. EST by ronimacarroni
(1089)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
What would happen?
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you would be able to implement a resource based economy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4mkRFCtl2MI
www.thevenusproject.com
You would have to trade the bread you made for some cloth to trade to for a chicken to finally trade for the oranges you wanted.
Money is not the evil thing everyone has made it out to be. It's just pieces of paper or metal or numbers on a bank statement. It's used as a universal resource so you don't have to go through the whole rigamoral above just to get what you want.
Barter is what happens when monetary systems collapse. Before money, people worked together, cooperatively, in supporting their communities.
The world population requires the high degree of economic efficiency that money/currency allows for. Without money as you call it a large majority of the world's population would starve. I don't think that's a good thing. How would I trade a service such as electrical power generation for chickens. Money developed spontaneously. It wasn't some edict from a king but its what people generally agreed upon as a unit of account, means of exchange and storage of wealth. Money is not the problem. The problem is the corruption that exists between the major corporations, banks and government that steals from the 99 percent and gives to the 1 percent through inflation and bailouts.
there were,in 2010 almost 100 million people starving in the world, so i think it comes as a moot point on economic efficiency, when the 100 million doesn't include the malnourished... If there is one starving person, the system has failed. You can't eat electricity, so chickens might be useful. Money didn't just appear, it evolved from the barter system.. everything used to be money, but it was cumbersome to have to drag your cow around to window shop, so small 'tokens' started to be used instead...which in turn, led to coinage. Money in itself is great, but it's the attitude of some towards it that makes the love of it 'the root of many injurious things'. It has become a God to many. Greed is the problem, but as long as there is money, there will be greed. Banks got bailouts, people didn't, & people shouldn't pay the banks debts unless they own the bank...
"Economic efficiency" sounds like a GOP talking point.
Do you want to live with the same standard of living as back then? You do realize that without a monetary system, investment is null and void. Look at all the wonderful things investment has gotten us: pharmaceuticals, cell phones, air conditioning. The more liquid the resource, the easier it is to use for things like investment.
We are living far beyond the means of our planet and at the expense of many people around the world.
The profits of a few are based on the poverty of many.
I find it completely bizzare that in today's world, with the technological and scientific advances, that we have still managed to create an economic system that is vulnerable and yet also leaves the vast majority of people unhappy, either with the lack of productive use of their skills, or with the ethos that drives the whole thing. Basic necessities should be a given for all citizens of the world. From that basic security, an economy of luxuries can be constructed, one luxury being 'knowledge and discovery'. There are a very great many things to motivate individuals besides greed.
We can do this. We are supposed to be a smart species, after all.
That still doesn't address the standard of living issue. How do people get loans if we have no money? How do we buy houses and invest in businesses? How do we trade with other countries. Futures allow farmers and buyers to settle on prices before the harvest. Without money being used to pay for these futures, how do we remove the volatility in commodity prices? These are the practical issues that you have to have the answers to if you want to make this fly.
1.build a house or occupy it if its empty
3.We would not trade with other countries.
4.there would be no commodity prices because there would be no money...
Not going to work, unless you want to return to the dark ages. Frankly, I think you would find that a little too taxing.
We need a 'capital' based system to fund research and manufacturing that is extremely complex. Many of the things we take for granted in the world rely on investments of large amounts of capital to bring products and services to market. The money system allows for extreme specialisation, which allows for technological advancement. The market is a means of distributing capital to these projects. Probably the best to date. The problem is that it places the decision making and the benefits of that production disproportionately in the hands of a relative few. The problem is, the very wealthy do not have to be productive any more, they just work the system and fund other people's innovations and claim the largest profit while taking on the minimum of risk.
To research what though? More diseases? This week they created a super avian flu virus. Do we really NEED more disease? Aids was created in a lab. There is allegedly 1 specimen of smallpox in the world, but US gov just bought 44 something million doses of vaccine? Their research is killing us!& more vaccinations? They used to be immunizations... What changed? The State needs a capital based system to sell us as a commodity via our birth cert, but I don't need it. People created the government, not the other way around. the people are superior as lawful entities, not legal entities. .We are treated like children, the decision-making has been taken from us. It isn't willingly given.... & nobody has the right to make OUR decisions for us unless we consent. & in some matters, not even then.We are endowed with unalienable rights, & no government can take them. We can't even give them away... like the right to grow food. We can't make that decision for ourselves either? That is fundamental to our creation& existence, yet it can be dictated that WE CANNOT? Nobody has the right to stop us. Not FDA, CIA,FBI or any other an acronym you can think of...No king has presented himself over this great empire, so WHO is it we should be obedient to? Can I shake his hand, or actually kick him in the shin for taking MY Rights? Then He can't tell anybody what they can & can't do..
Politics is exactly such a system of giving decision-making power to individuals on behalf of a majority. Point of fact is, we don't have the time or the intellectual ability to master all the facts and details for running 'society'. We have to delegate. Of course, you can always call for a break down of society. Personally, I think that will bring only war. Economic stability is the only chance we have for a peaceful world. We need to stop Wall St being a casino where tables are fixed and the taxpayer picks up the tab.
To delegate suggests hierarchy though, & we are all equal. Money is what makes it complicated... I think the 'WAR' boat has sailed, & it's happening anyway. Whether WE like it or not.... Governments can't validate war when 100 million American's are on the bread-line... That's a third of the country. It is criminal to have troops in 8 countries when gov is not taking care of it\s people..
A world without hierarchies! Now there's a thought. Equal yes, in terms of rights, but not equally capable of doing certain jobs, I'm sure. Well, while there is still war in the world, there is a lot less of it, and much of that peace has come on the back of economic and institutional development. While I think that money spent on security is a horrible waste, the fact is too that it's a massive industry and dismantling it will bring many more people on the dole, unless you plan to create government jobs in other sectors. That would be good. However, the world is not interdependent enough yet to rule out the need for effective defence or even policing (via the UN). Personally, I don't think the 'wars' have been the problem for the US and its allies - it's been the nation building or lack of it that accompanies them. This is the problem, you scrimp on one issue and you pay more for other issues. The lack of a 'big picture' is usually the problem. But it's a problem that stretches from the parish pond, to the family business, to the large corporations, to national institutions etc. Time and again I see one department cut their costs with the result that the organisation as a whole pays more. That, my friend, is the fundamental problem, across the board.
But what if I have a company that just got an very large order and now I need to hire more people. I don't have enough cows on hand to pay the new people and I won't get my cow payment from my customer until the order is delivered. How do we handle this? Also, I don't particularly want to keep 10,000 cows on hand and feed them and maintain them. I would prefer just to keep 10K in a bank account.
We would not trade with other countries??? So you want to go back to like pre Dark Ages?
No commodities would still have a price it would just be expressed in cows or chickens or beads. It would still be a market, and you would still have volatility.
Sorry but you have no idea how are monetary system works, nor do you have any idea the horror that would happen to abandon it. I just pray there are more people with sense than people like you.
"We would not trade with other countries???"
Yes everything would have to be made in America, the horror!
but what's to make?grow food, make pipes & a tap for water, & bother your neighbors for their home-brew until yours ferments... After time, people would provide for their wants too, but they will be much less than they are now.
Dude, you do realize that countries have been trading with each other since, oh, the beginning of recorded civilization right? Things as completely nonessential as oh, rubber, cannot be made here. We don't have the climate for a Banyan tree to produce rubber. You like having your dvd's and your high tech toys? Guess what, those require rare earth metals that aren't naturally found here.
You're an idiot.
We use rubber because its there! I don't need hi tech anything if I have arms & legs... They create an insular society of people that only interface with another interface. Not a real human being, so we loose our humanity. & that's is how this mess has happened. If you don't use it you loose it. We don't have 'real' friendships because people on here rarely use their real name. How is that a good thing? We are 'pseudo-persona's'.... We have re-created ourselves virtually to be our own alter-egos. Its more control, that is all. The net won't be here for us for long. our personal info has been uploaded, our e mails read by FED.. everything chipped, soon us too? How can that possibly be a good thing? incorporating technology into an organic body will not end well. I must say, the Banyan tree was the first thing I thought about too. & I'm an idiot?
rubber is made synthetically nowadays and the United States has pretty much every mineral known to man.
Besides whatever happened to the so called substitute goods you economists keep preaching about?
Realistically you can't substitute everything. And synthetic rubbers are not quite the same as the real deal. Your car tires are made of mostly real rubber. We simply lack the natural resources to make every single thing in this country. Besides, why would we want to close ourselves off from the world like that? Talk about a bleak existence.
If people with more sense than me, is you, then you should actually be grateful there is only one you, & I am not it. I'd sell your company..(: I don't want slavery, or to enslave. I am not made secure by money. I care that other people have the freedom to BE, that CANNOT be taken away by ANY FORCE, & the right to decide. I am made secure by the knowledge that people still have a chance if they are willing to stop holding on to the 'security' that is enslavement, & have courage & confidence in each other that they can make a difference to each others quality of life in practical ways that affect them, not corporations. If you think as above, then sense, logic & reasoning would just drive you crazy. Would be great for big pharma, but you are probably better off. ...& the price WOULD be chickens, or cows or beads... & you could swap them.... Money is anything we say it is. You could call them chickdollars, & cowbucks & beadcents... if it made you feel better.
lol. I have an exceptional knowledge of how it works, & how we have been enslaved to it.. If your concern would be how you will meet your order, (doesn't that sound like demand in fedgov speak)? If you want to answer demands from superiors, & enslave more people to do the work for them (& for you)& pay taxes, then I think you may have got on the wrong side of the fence here. no offence. Other people would want cows, you could swap? My point is, you are not a company. you are a human being. the only reason to have a company is to make money to pay more people to do work that doesn't benefit them. Except we can have some iou's that we have been led to believe are worth more than the paper they are written on.. money drives us, it compels us to find ways to get more of it. Can you honestly say that people take better care of each other now than in the dark ages? At least then they were in it together, sink or swim. they had a sense of community. where is that now? It is back in the dark ages...
Well, it depends on whether your standard of living is set by your means, or by your neighbors wealth... Why would you need a loan if other people were not using money? you want something, you could make it, or exchange some skill you have for it, or ask the owner of what you want if you can have it.. If it has no owner, you could claim use of it.. why should we have to buy a house that we would never own? There is enough land for half an acre each easily.Nobody owns the land. No-one can say 'It is mine", unless God comes along!... we can't OWN anything. we can claim & use it if the crafter of it says so, but it always belongs to the person who crafted it, who put the effort in. It is their sweat equity that made it, so if they allow it to be used, we can use it. As someone once said 'If you think you own your house, just try not paying taxes on it!! We are not businesses, we are human beings.Who said we have to spend hours away form our families every day? We have government to take care of us, don't we? how is it that WE started taking care of them, & keeping them in luxury while people die because they can afford painkillers but not antibiotics, & they buy the painkillers... so the people already do all the work to provide the people with everything. It belongs to them yet we pay for it? Would it be a bad thing to just cut out the slave driver & learn to take care of ourselves? Our sweat equity is not taxable. The reward for the work we do belongs to us. It is not a PRIVILEGE to work for the gov & pay tax?!?!(Only income from stock exchange IS lawfully taxable actually)Our effort should go into taking care of ourselves because gov does not do it's job. Farmers would be bartering with the rest of us for the things we can create but he can't. he would farm for himself & for swapping purposes. without money,. No good having money if no-one else does. You can't eat it.... I'm talking about not depending on the state to get everything for us. we are human adults who don't need nannies. we need the right to take care of ourselves. Why trade with other countries if you have provided yourself with what you need? 'practical issues being 'Who will be working for wall street'? they are unnecessary to me if i have my own food because I stayed home with my family & grew it...
Home
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqxENMKaeCU
pharmaceuticals? are you kidding? vitamin D cures cancer, so does hemp oil.... we are not told this, we have to find out.. they have had the cure for cancer for 40+ years.(many things on google)because there is no money in healthy people..their treatments (note they are not called 'cures'),make you sick, but you are so grateful, you just buy more medicines. Bicarbonate of soda makes the body unable to be host to disease. these are documented facts from people who did the work & were dissuaded from telling us.. so they risked everything & told us anyway... Cell phones- CONFIRMED link to brain cancer.. air conditioning... causes dehydration which leads to sickness & microbe proliferation. We don't have them here, so had to look that up.. We open the window or close it.. That's our AC... investment pays for the rape & pillage going on everywhere, but when they rape & pillage your accounts in the next few months, & the money disappears, this will sound like a great idea. England like to give you drugs too. It keeps us docile, apparently & more easy to control. If they let us have grass, there would be no war at all. People just wouldn't bother.. we would be peaceful & have no need for police control. There is a reason for everything they do. Nothing is left to chance, except people waking up & speaking out. they can't keep everyone oblivious because the agenda has flaws...& people are killed for speaking out.
You. Are. Crazy.
Please get help.
& you are ignorant.. Did I win? Are you even qualified to say that? Have you met me to make an informed decision, or do you often say things that you have no clue about? I love rhetoric..
We have a cure for all these diseases? Wow population could be as high as 14 billion. It would be another milestone for us!
lol, but the opportunity would be nice? Population should not be covertly controlled with manufactured diseases. We are not ALLOWED to take responsibility. We have, as a race, been controlled to almost death. Most people I know would like to live & be unhealthy due to their own bad management, not some stranger who has no vested interest in them... That's inhuman.
it would, yes. but we would be interacting as human beings instead of a computer-created entities. like gov is legal fiction, we are becoming fictions, & people haven't noticed.... They already created legal fictions for us with birth certs & SS numbers. we present ourselves as such if they 'invite' us to court. & to summons is to invite. But we can only represent that legal fiction, like the judge represents the state. there is a maxim of law that says there must be a meeting of the minds, ie.. Legal fiction vs legal fiction. They cannot interact with us else. we must consent to being the legal fiction for it to work, but we do it without knowing, commercial courts are for commercial(legal) entities. We are not
Money is actually debt. government debt... to the federal reserve... money is like an Iou,,, It is a promise to pay at some later date, because that is what the gov promised when FDR wanted the people to give them the gold. It was 'you give us your gold, & WE will pay your bills. (fractional reserve banking meant that FED RES didn't HAVE gold to back up their loans, they gave fiat currency based on potential interest off other lenders) Exchange gold for labor & you have slavery. We pay THEM with their own debt notes, & we WORK too?!?! gov debt CANNOT be paid because money is debt. interest is added on ALL created money, but money doesn't exist until it is made.. Where can the money to pay the interest come from? There is nothing of substance to pay the debt, so the people should stop trying, & live like the gov doesn't exist, which it actually doesn't. It is a 'legal entity'. It cannot possess money. People can... i am not shouting, I just can't make this writing smaller... Anybody?
People would kill each other for food and resources that is what would happen. Never doubt human nature: we are in the business of surviving not sharing.
For the majority of human history we lived in small groups that had no concept of money what so ever. Sharing and working together is how we survived.
We are social beings. It's just that our current system has been driving a wedge between us. It gives the impression we are nothing but greedy. But that's just a false impression based our amazing ability to adopt to our environment. And our current environment encourages greed, so most of us act greedy to some extent.
I think during that period we lived in grass nuts and had to devote each day to survival. Now you sit with your ipad and post on the Internet yet decry the advances and long for the good old days of 40 year life expectancy.
That's because life is such shit now people are willing to trade half their lives for something different. Go figure.
It doesn't matter if you're rich or poor. The things we value now are truly unfortunate. Money really is the root of all evil.
Can you explain why "life is such shit now"? Even if you are "poor" by American standards you are rich to much of the world. We have redefined poverty to include people with high def TV's, IPads, IPods, Play Stations, and cable TV. I spent 6 weeks living in my car when I was young. That truly sucked, but it was a result of my own stupidity, stubbornness, and unwillingness to do what was necessary to avoid that outcome. Fast forward several years and this country allowed me the opportunity to get ahead and now I am pretty comfortable. So please, explain why "life is such shit now". Is it that way for you specifically or are you commenting on your perception of an overall issue?
The argument was about human nature. Not about life expectancy :p
there's more than enough food and resources to go around. We shouldn't be in the business of surviving, we should be in the business of enjoying life.
Sure but lets face the fact the people who currently oppress people today on a societal level will now find positions as "facilitators" in your resource based society. And believe me these people are power hungry and will find a way to infiltrate your society. So now if i don't agree with them my water, fuel and food supply is now compromised. No thanks I ratter be lacking money than have someone "facilitate" resources. It is much less dangerous for me.
The point of such a society is to create abundance so no small minority can control a centralized point of food, water, energy as is happening now with the monetary system.
Decentralized abundance is key
Answer these questions...
Why is it America has so much food?
How is it the food gets moved around?
What will the hard working producers get in return for all the food they produce?
How will we regulate bartering?
Would it not end with food being the new "money"?
People kill for money now, what's the difference?
for that to be rife, it must be being promoted. Who benefits most if we cannot or do not co-operate? Would we NEED a police State if we could be good to each other? There is an agenda behind the state of humanity's condition. There is a reason for it. We have been divided & conquered by man's doctrines for centuries. We are led to hate those different to ourselves. Christian's hate Muslims, & vice versa. We are TOLD about their terrorist activities, but should we just believe what we are told, or should we look to see what makes the most sense? I don't believe US was attacked by an outside agency on 9/11. It just doesn't add up. But how many of you were terrified of Muslims after that? Many people died, but it was a small price to pay to terrify you all into giving up every last vestige of freedom you have,& all your wealth & prosperity, to fight terrorism & create a police state 'for the greater good'? Who's greater good, because it is certainly of no benefit to the American people to believe that an imagined enemy is around every corner. It created great paranoia. It was home-grown. It has been proven. Bush LIED about it on TV. Did Al Qieda exist before that? They hadn't threatened America.. I never heard of them till 9/11. We just heard G bush say it many times, & I start saying it... I must have said Al Qieda did it' many times before I thought 'Who the bloody hell is Al Qieda.'?. Our 'nature' has been manipulated to blindly accept what we are told, because gov won't hurt us, they will protect us. OWS is testament to that not being the truth. We now need protecting from the protectors, & if we don't find a way to do it, then we truly are doomed to tyranny, oppression & enslavement in fema camps 'For the greater good'. & 'In the war against terror'. That's terrifying. While Hitler failed to do it, technology has given them the means to do it. We shall all get our chips in the next couple of years, & control will be total. Fed Gov is reaching Europe in a big way. They just sent troops to Australia too, to protect them? China wouldn't be a threat is fedgov would stop attacking people & dictating policy to the rest of the world in their 'War against terror'. it's a war against the people, & nothing else.
There is no such thing as human nature.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Z9WVZddH9w
"There is such a thing as human nature" your in denial, Humans react when they feel threaten, they get jealous, they would steal to survive, and they would even murder sometimes indiscriminately. If you deny that this is not a part of the human condition than you sir are a very poor observer of life in general. I am not saying that people should not refrain from doing those things but the reality is that all men are not made equal. In a civilized society all men instead have equal rights. it is the very fact that men are not created equal that undermines a resource based society.
You are speaking of a culture that suffers from affluenza.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P7_w3w9VLIw&feature=share
Money is a tool, just like a hammer, a hammer is used to pound nails and money is used to unequally distribute wealth. It is tough to get your head around society without money but when you do you'll see a lot of our problems start to disappear. get rid of money you take away the oppositions best tool.
So instead of unequal dollars we have unequal cows. How is this different than now?
The key word is unequal. We have decided as a society that one individual, for whatever reason is worth more than another. This is part of capitalism. A Corporate exec is worth millions a year and a garbage man is only worth thousands and a very good argument could be made that the garbage man is worth more to our society than the exec. there are many ideas of how a society without currency would work, all of which would be better than the inequality we see now. I disagree that lawlessness will nesseccarily follow the collapse in currency. That will be our collective choice, if the numbers for civility outweigh those against, we will be civil, it's our choice.
without money, people will just hoard other things, like cows or land.
You have to widen perspective and change your entire way of looking at society. Why is it important to own everything? one big step would be to eliminate ownership, of evererything. capitalism has some fatal flaws, it requires that we continue to grow and populate, and capitalism forces competition. The problems we face as a species require cooperation not competition.
i like winning. it gets the girls
Perhaps you should consider winning for the team. Me first then we attitude is what has us on brink of self destructing. We have to realize that if we don't change attitudes to We first then me, we are sunk. You might be winning now but everyone loses eventually if we continue present course. That's what is so bizarre about the elite, they think they are immune. To use an analogy; we're on the Titanic and we've already hit the ice berg and the band played on as if nothing was wrong. The winners will have the best seat in house to the very end but make no mistake about it they will sink as well.
don't really want to share my girls... or yours for that matter
"my girls" . This says volumes about you. I don't have any girls. the people I'm aquanted with generally associate with who ever they choose and don't usually find it necessary to check with me first but most women with a brain would probably not want to be "your girl".
[Removed]
Bartering. Then we will reinvent the debt-free money: the monetary system before the Banking Cartel (Goldman Sacs, JP Morgan Chase, BoA, Morgan Stanley and other global private banksters) hijacked our financial sovereignty with debt-money Ponzi scheme. I cannot word it better than the Lincoln himself who implemented our (first and only) debt-free monetary system.
"The Government should create, issue and circulate all the currency and credit needed to satisfy the spending power of the Government and the buying power of consumers. The privilege of creating and issuing money is not the supreme prerogative of Government, but it is the Government's greatest creative opportunity. By the adaption of these principals ... the taxpayers will be saved immense sums of interest. MONEY WILL CEASE TO BE MASTER AND BECOME THE SERVANT OF HUMANITY."
— Abraham Lincoln, 16th US President
The problem is not money itself, money is a means of exchange and indeed an important one for business transaction. However, the real question is who should control the creation of money. The US government or private bankers to profit from it. Thanks to the 1914 congressional act, the profiteer bankers took over the issuance of the dollar, no wonder why this country is bankrupt while 0.1% of the population became extremely wealthy.
A resource based economy could and should take its place.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDhSgCsD_x8
we still need new publicly owned (US$) and denounce privately owned FED debt note $
what if instead of trading we all "shared"
You know, kind of like we were taught in kindergarten.
So like, I operate on your brain and you give me three chickens?
2 chickens.... & I'll sort your ingrown toenails..
There are many artificial barriers to becoming a doctor that are completely unnecessary.
If somebody wants to be a brain surgeon they should just learn how to operate brains.
I'm in med school and I actually agree with you. I think we should deregulate the medical industry to allow more people to fullfill different niches. Nurse practitioners should be able to do more if they screw up then that's the cost of going to someone who is less experienced. The AMA is a cartel that keeps the number of health care providers artificially low and therefore causes the cost of health care to be excessively expensive.
Yea I want to have my neuro analysis and brain surgery performed by someone who didn't have all those artificial barriers...NOT!
If you're talking about the diagnosis it would be more practical for someone to get training to diagnose you and another person to get training to operate you.
I would actually expect there to be a team of highly trained specialists, technicians, doctors and surgeons. I would hope they were aware of all the possibilities and would discuss them in heated debate. I would want them to use the best equipment created by highly trained engineers and scientists.
I would gladly pay them with money since I am sure they don't want 1,000 pounds of tomatoes each.
Too many engineers, scientists and doctors, money isn't the bottom line.
But rather a barrier they must get passed by in order to do their job.
The only people who truly benefit from this system are insurance companies and financiers.
OK that's fine for you. You can get yourself a bloodletting in the barn when you have a serious problem. Or you can use a medicine man!
I'll stick with the scientists and doctors in the high tech hospital with mass spectrometers, CT scanners, Electrocardiographic monitors.
Well this system has produced a shortage of "medicine men" and the ones who are available will leave you bankrupt unless you pay like ten thousand dollars worth of insurance for your family.
However I will be alive.
Oh, and by the way I have insurance. My employer provides it although I have to contribute 10% towards it.
That's how it should be maybe? We have been led by the hand since kindergarten so it makes sense that we would have to regress somewhat to advance by ourselves.... sharing would create problems with adults, as it does with kids, because there would be no measure, to proportion fairly, & people have been known to take advantage. there would need to be exchange but anything can be money if 2 people agree that it is. If you had a talent, like green fingers, or baking, you could make bread from your neighbors wheat, give them some bread, swap some for some meat or vegetables, make soup or stew, give you friend some in exchange for a bottle of wine, & you can have a nice night in...
Forum Post: Eliminate the monetary system!
Posted Nov. 4, 2011, 12:56 p.m. EST (1 day ago) by sandpirate This content is user submitted and not an official statement
Rid our society of the classes and begin to work together as a unified people. Instead of arguing, blaming, and reacting, let us act as responsible adults and embrace major changes. This begins with each one of us, it begins with our outlook, our attitude, our willingness to accept indifference, change, conflict, debate, and scrutiny. At no time have we ever dreamed of walking away from our secure lifestyles that we admit are unfulfilling, unfair, and unjust, no matter how uncomfortable it becomes. The real question is; are you willing to act on something that you may never benefit from in your lifetime so that others may benefit from your loss?
http://occupywallst.org/forum/eliminate-the-monetary-system/
All of you are haggling about money.
Get rid of it.
Instead of a money economy: based upon corruption, opposition, selfishness and greed: create your own self-sufficient communities and economies based upon cooperation, trust and fun.
http://occupywallst.org/forum/all-of-you-are-missing-the-point/
I tried to like that twice, but it didn't let me...
Q: Are you willing to act on something that you may never benefit from in your lifetime so that others may benefit from your loss?
A: Hell no.
there is time to help others and time to help ourselves
So instead of haggling over money we haggle over cows. How does this solve anything?
we've always been haggling about cows
Fine. Then let's just keep haggling about money and not deal with the ginormous pain in the ass living in a society without some sort of universal resource would be, ok?
The resource has been here always.. Our talents, whatever they are, & willingness to work. People need work. It is good for the mind. The problem is being forced to do it for something other than our families
scratch scratch
hmmm?
You want to get rid of money. Which is the dumbest thing I ever heard. And if we're going to be arguing about resources anyway, can we please keep money just to simply make all of our lives a million times simpler.
trouble is the money numbers are concentrated in a minority population
Then go get some of it. There will always be people that have more than others. Whether that be money or cows.
I don't want to play someone elses game
That's like saying you don't want to play by the laws of gravity. It doesn't work that way. You either play and play to win, or you don't. But if you specifically choose not to play, don't bitch about losing.
i didn't bitch.. You would have gone away if I bitched. I'm crazy, remember? & I'm not 6, for goodness sake child. It was a choice not to play with you. did it hurt your feelings?
Then You should probably get out more & see what money has done/is doing/is going to do to the world.... Take a walk down, I don't know, Wall street? How is it simpler? If you don't have it, you don't have to worry about it, surely? If you have it, you certainly worry about people taking it off you!
let the cows decide. Everyone poke it with a stick, the last one to get kicked, (& you have to give the cow the chance), gets the cow. The fight will be 'who gets to go 1st!!
If we really wanted to know, we'd be rid of it.
Nobody wants to know.
QED we won't get rid of it.
We won't get rid of it because there's too much opposition.
QED nobody wants to know.
Money can be used as a great tool of communication for humanity, or it can be used in other ways. Abolishing it would not help us now. For sure.
depends on what you mean by that. evolve out of money systemically? in 50 years? fine idea. "get rid of money"? you do realize thats a formula to have civilization collapse if you go anarchist with it?
in all due respect, its a simpleton idea detached from the systemic complexities of the assorted problems.
http://occupythiswiki.org/wiki/Paradigm_Shift
chaos
Many famous ppl believed in eliminating money. With abundance (modern machinery), barter, hoarding and money is unnecessary.
Half the ppl in the U$A work at unnecessary jobs: banker, bookkeeper, accountant, cashier, sales, insurance, finance, stock market, advertising, making unnecessary unhealthy things, etc.
Quoations from famous ppl that believed in eliminating money: http://666ismoney.com/MoneyQuotes.html
I'm not intending to suggest that people should remove ideals, but a world, from this which we live in today, existing without monetary systems is simply not going to happen; and it has nothing to do with who has the most of the money or not.
Even if everyone in the world had the same amount of money, the infrastructure of exchange cannot be stripped out so easily. To do so is quite appropriately compared to doing a bone marrow marrow and blood transplant at the same time as applying nuclear treatment to the body.
In rephrase, it is a gamble without precedent which invests upon the nature of humanity erring on the side of good; when good is defined as that which is what each party wants, and when that which each party wants is equal in forgiveness to the other without concern of ownership in transaction.
As many have cited, humanity has done fine without monetary systems in the past, so that aspect of the function does have a precedent. However, with 7 billion people on the planet in far closer proximity to each other than in recorded history, and the mass volume of that same population having little to no knowledge on how to subsist on natural practices, or that the population levels do not permit the expansion of such an infrastructure in which each individual collective governs their own physical supply of resources for subsistence, and that many populations currently exist in larger populations than their natural subsistence had permitted previous to the artificial supplementation of importation at the exchange of monetary values gained from working force values considering this to be their only marketable trade marking considering their lacking any equity in physical resources of exportation, it is not pragmatic nor humane to ask the entire world's population to forfeit their monetary value systems in exchange for a philosophy of world sharing of which there is a lacking provisional infrastructure to back and supply.
The issue in this country is not the monetary system itself, but the gates of liberty to which the monetary institutions have become.
There is not a need to remove monetary systems to restore the order of access to the endeavor of financial liberty.
Instead, the road to liberty, not even the gates, are lent interest for the access to, in an endless treadmill which serves no individual the liberty ascribed - not even the proverbial, "1%".
Many may rally against the 1%, but do not mistake; for even they are not liberated from financial indenture to financial institutions. They simply have greater means of affording the debt than the mass majority of the population.
And in regards to the, "road to liberty", I refer to three primary requirements of life: education, health, and property.
To even begin to strive to accomplish liberated access to the last two, one must first partake in the first at interest. And here the treadmill immediately begins the indentured standing before the endeavor to economic liberty has even begun for the individual.
From here, all choices continue in pursuit to mitigate the impact of the previous debts to the continual pursuit of the latter two aspects of life, health and property. As such, the options reduce further until property is owned enough from taking upon further interest so that one may levy that property against the acquisition of other property of residence and life for the pursuit of liberty and happiness.
The occupation of the same individual becomes synonymous with the means of repaying debt, and not the means of acquisition and earnings.
And among this, suffering is to those that need any attention of health in the middle of the juggling between education and property; for here too, one is immediately valued at interest for their pursuit of health.
And to stay in this health, the individual must turn to their occupation of repaying debt by levying more expenditure than they are properly provisioned to sustain at interest beyond their expectations to foresee a tangible number of end.
This has nothing to do with the monetary system itself. It has to do with how rights to equitable education, health, and property are retained as privileges granted by the institutions of finance, and that for this grant the individual is expected to be indebted with gratitude for the opportunity.
Money is not the source of the issue. The financial institutions retaining the gates of access to financial liberation at interest is.
We would have to add live chicken slots to vending machines.
We very well easily could if the desire was there. If all the money in the world were destroyed, as long as we have sufficient arable land, the factories, the necessary resources, and technical personnel, we could build anything with an even supply of abundance.
I agree with Frizzle. We don't really NEED money, but people generally create it, since it is a more convenient method of commerce than bartering.
At the level of sustenance farming, you don't need money at all. Medieval peasants made and grew everything they needed themselves, and lived comfortably for centuries, so they didn't need money.
The British Empire grew from being a small feudal island to the largest empire in the world, all without using 'money'. What they used instead were called 'Tally sticks'. The king sent out assessors to count the assets each peasant had, so they knew how much grain, eggs, barley, etc. to tax them. The numbers were marked on a stick, and the stick was cut in half. One half went to the peasant, the other half was kept by the king. When it came time to pay taxes, the two halves of the stick were brought together and checked. This was the 'currency' of most of England from about 600 C.E. to the 1700's.
Yes of course the King had gold in his treasury, but peasants had no coinage at all. How do you tax people that have no money?
Sustenance farming might be a little tough to pull off in New York City, or any city really. I think it's possible for everyone to grow their own food in 48 square feet of land though. In Holland there is a law which says every dutch citizen has a right to a certain amount of land (10 square meters? Not sure). Imagine such a law in the USA. Imagine vertical farms in windowsills and along the sides of skyscrapers, and on the roofs.
Look at 'square foot gardening' for an efficient way to grow your own food and food for your family. Food is freedom. Take food production back.
Before paper money replaced gold, people used things like trinkets as a form of currency. In Africa there is a tribe that trades squares of homespun cloth as currency. It's a pretty good system, since everyone has the power to create their own money, there is no counterfeiting, and no one is extremely rich or poor. Cockleshells were used as currency too, and so were cattle.
In north America, some people think that the native Americans used wampum as money. This isn't entirely true. 'Wampum' was more like a contract with value attached to it by weaving in beads and artwork. It would be something more like a deed than currency.
get rid of the whole monetary system of cash and credit. Go with a system of points put on a card that tracks a persons work put in and points earned. Like a time card. Let them use that same card to buy what they need. Put people back to work by starting with this nation's infrastructure. And pay according to skill level, difficulty and danger of work done. But award people even at the bottom skill levels enough points to be able to take care of themselves and their family expenses, and to be able to afford decent housing. Award the highest points to doctors, engineers, and so on, those people with the critical skills needed to sustain a modern and civil society. CEOs and managerial would be second to them. And don't let the rich cry for their cash. They can keep it. With every dollar they have hoarded in banks equaling to one point. In other words, one dollar=one point. So if I have 8 billion dollars in the bank then I have 8 billion points. Are we going to let the Repugnant Party let the U.S. economy crash and put everyone out of work, losing their homes and living in camps, standing in bread lines? I don't think that most hard working Americans that are committed to the ideals of this country would accept that.
Get rid of cash and go with a point system to pay people for their labor everywhere on Earth. No more monetary systems that dictate that some currency is more valuable than others.
I remember learning something in church and from the Bible about not "worshipping false idols"(gold, money) and the story of Jesus throwing out the money changers from His Father's House. The symbolism there is that the Earth itself is God's House. I see a lesson there. It's the system of cash that needs to go. I had already posted here once about that. Replace cash with a "point" system. You keep the "cash" you already have. With one point=one dollar. And you pay people people according to their skills. And you pay those at the bottom, unskilled or today's "minimum wage workers" a living "wage" with points awarded for hours worked. So you do have to work in order to earn "points". Doctors, environmental scientists, engineers, health researchers, college professors, technical instructors and so on, of course, would get paid the highest number of points. You would have to set up a tiered system for awarding points. Maybe 4 tiers. Top tier would be, as I mentioned above, doctors, environmental scientists and so on. Second tier would be upper managment. No outrageous salaries for CEOs anymore. No more obscene cash hoarding. The economic system now is modern slavery. Trickle down. Third tier would be skilled workers and middle managers. Then the unskilled would be the forth tier. But the unskilled would still earn enough "points" to make a very decent living. Their new higher income, because there would be millions of unskilled workers, would boost the economy by creating a huge demand for goods and services. Goods and services that are made here and provided right here in this country. New housing and so on. Lots of work would be created for the purpose of repairing or building new infrastructure requiring the employment of engineers, skilled and unskilled labor. Even people who cannot work, because to earn "points" you have to work, those who cannot would still get points to be able to live with their handicap. And the points earned would be set. So a grocery store clerk working in New York would get paid the same as one working in Mexico. But even that lowly grocery clerk would still earn enough points in Mexico or New York to be able to put bread on the table among other things needed to live a comfortable life and provide for themselves and their family. Illegal immigration would stop because no matter where you live on planet Earth as a dishwasher you're going to get paid the same number of points. People would be much less inclined to leave their homeland and their families behind. An incentive of bonuses in the form of a large number of extra points would be paid for those doing research in the necessary-for-human-and-environmental-survival skills. The bonuses would be the motivation for working towards better solutions on just about everything. The current economic system with its cycles of plenty and none and economic collapse on a global scale has got to go. I do not think that the people of today, no matter where they live, would tolerate another "Great Depression".
Points = money. All you did was change the term.
barter would happen, because goods for services is what 'legal tender' paper money replaced to begin with.
How would you get soft drinks out of vending machines?
With a card that records the number of hours you work and then paid in points. You would swipe your card for all transactions. The card would have a magnetic strip on it. In order to get rid of the negative connotations associated with "credit" cards these would be called "point" cards. Read my post above. In order to sell your microwave you would take it to a designated used merchandise store where you would get paid for your microwave by "points" added to your "point" card. Then the microwave would be cleaned up and re-sold at that same store.
No thanks, I will never allow my transactions to be tracked and controlled to that degree; it limits my freedom significantly and makes me into a slave.
Furthermore, I prefer for recipients of the commodities that I possess which I wish to monetize to compete with eachother, rather than be at the mercy of a "single payer".
See, I want to bring down the banks and the government; that's why I don't have any accounts, licenses, or "cards" of any kind.
All of that information would automatically be recorded when you use your card. All of that technology to do this already exists now. It would not be complicated to get it started.
I'm sorry, I don't think you comprehended what I wrote.
I will never have such a card, since:
You are welcome to submit to whatever systems you choose however.
Yes! That is the answer! Shoot your way out of society's challenges.
Please respond. Is it your intent to force your rather intrusive economic ideas about "labor" and "points" upon me?
Answer to what? Are you implying that you intend to force such a card on me?
That would be dumb. Considering in America we import everything, there would be nothing to barter. In fact the barter system failed because I don't want your parsley in exchange of my steak. But I accept currency for my steak because then I can buy that corn on the cob I've been wanting.
If you eliminated money in the U.S. They would just print some "More", Right?
What if the sky were green? Doesn't matter, you're stuck with what you have. Actual paper money and coin is slowly going extinct though, it's becoming electronic.
You could send it to me
money is just a concept, to get rid of it would be like getting rid of the word blue to describe that color.
Just for fun ...
"Accordingly, the individual producer receives back from society -- after the deductions have been made -- exactly what he gives to it. What he has given to it is his individual quantum of labor. For example, the social working day consists of the sum of the individual hours of work; the individual labor time of the individual producer is the part of the social working day contributed by him, his share in it. He receives a certificate from society that he has furnished such-and-such an amount of labor (after deducting his labor for the common funds); and with this certificate, he draws from the social stock of means of consumption as much as the same amount of labor cost. The same amount of labor which he has given to society in one form, he receives back in another . . . The right of the producers is proportional to the labor they supply; the equality consists in the fact that measurement is made with an equal standard, labor.
But one man is superior to another physically, or mentally, and supplies more labor in the same time, or can labor for a longer time; and labor, to serve as a measure, must be defined by its duration or intensity, otherwise it ceases to be a standard of measurement. This equal right is an unequal right for unequal labor. It recognizes no class differences, because everyone is only a worker like everyone else; but it tacitly recognizes unequal individual endowment, and thus productive capacity, as a natural privilege. It is, therefore, a right of inequality, in its content, like every right. Right, by its very nature, can consist only in the application of an equal standard; but unequal individuals (and they would not be different individuals if they were not unequal) are measurable only by an equal standard insofar as they are brought under an equal point of view."
-Karl Marx
people may be talented carpenters, while others grow food well. Why not feed the carpenter for the duration of a job he is doing for you? Time is measurable, & it is relatively, the same to everyone living in close proximity... We can measure the value of work with time... It is universal...Conscience would also come into it, ie, giving value to the time, getting the job done in reasonable time...
Measuring the value of work with time (and intensity) was precisely Marx's idea for the transitional state between capitalism and communism. You work for an hour at average intensity, you get a labour certificate for 1 hour, and you can go redeem it for 1 hour's worth of production. Speculation and profit become impossible, because nobody will be willing to trade an hour's certificate for anything less than an hour's value, and there is no way to skim profit from the difference between wages and sale price, because there is no difference between the two anymore. And it does allow the hard worker who puts in more hours or works at higher intensity to earn more.
The only problem is who will become a brain surgeon when they can make just as much doing carpentry? And where will new capital come from, when you need to expand production to provide more jobs for a growing population?
I think skimming profit would be akin to interest, would it? If we have clean water & healthy food, the need for a brain surgeon would be less hopefully. This is hypothetical, so we can be hopeful at least. The point of it would be, people would be busy with their own lives, taking care of their own needs. Who would want to be employed to cater for expansion? Why can't our jobs be taking care of ourselves? Trusted to be decent, Growing food, owning a goat or something.Why does the populous need jobs, when work taking care of the family is all we are required to do? It isn't your job or my job to provide jobs for people, & enslave them again to corporations. We have seen the result,. While many have plenty, many more have not enough of the basics. If we have worked the land, we have earned our food. Is it wrong that I don't want to work for the State, & want to work for the real living flesh & blood people around me that may have use for something I can provide with the work of my hands? I want a simple life. I hate the hectic nature of today's society. It's almost as if you have to be an addict to live in it. Every thing is geared to stimulate the addiction center in the brain. We have been made susceptible to manipulation & dependency. I don't want to be like that any more. I want my mind to be private property.... This commercial society does not let that happen. I want the right to choose. & that is considered rebellious. It's just wrong...
I guess profit and interest both share a parasitic aspect. Profit is the difference between sale price and what you pay to the employees and suppliers: you don't work for it, you just take a share of the value the workers produce because you're the owner. And then you turn around and use that profit to own more capital and take more. You can make millions in profit without working at all or producing anything of value yourself, just by virtue of having won a lottery or inheiriting money or what have you.
As far as why do we need jobs. We can't support the population we have without efficiencies of scale and specialization. It's not wrong if you want to live off the land, but, you can't expect that to support more than a small fraction of our present population.
That being said, the rampant consumerism and addictive nature of commerce today that you talk about is out of hand. But I don't think it's either-or. We can have an industrial (perhaps not postindustrial) society without those things. Look at the Boomer generations' parents. They had big business and an industrial economy, but they were also very frugal, preferred to fix things rather than buy new things, often had a vegetable garden and maybe some chickens or goats, and it wasn't just the upper middle class who had a sewing machine and perhaps a carpentry shop in their home. Now I'll grant that it did lead to this, but only because they didn't see it coming. We'd be forewarned second time around, if we could get back to that.
The earth could support the population though, if we didn't mine it to almost destruction... There is a commonly held thought that WE have to support the population.The government is supposed to do that, & it isn't. Yet we don't support ourselves, everyone is supporting each other. It just seems that's not how it's supposed to be. We should help each other, certainly, but we should have some measure of doing it for ourselves. It is being dictated that we are not allowed to grow our own food, & nutrients are drugs, & we can't have those either. How else will people survive if they don't turn back to the earth? We are under attack, & being denied all things that keep us healthy... Why? There is no money in healthy people. Corporations are clearly not making enough money off our backs, or we are just not dying quickly enough for them. Right now, there can only BE personal responsibility if we want to survive... I think industry fails because or money, or greed. I guess I just no longer feel the need to be enslaved to it, instead of caring for people that I know & love, using my abilities to provide for them, & they do the same. We may be pack animals, but a pack is not a pack of 7 billion.... (or 6 million in this country, but it still provides to other parts of the world....)So 7 billion... That just isn't natural... I would like to get back to that... vegetable garden, a goat, some chickens.... that feels like it's as it should be...
Really? This is going to work? A society with no money? K, good luck with that. It'd be a mass state of anarchy of people bitching that they don't have what another person has.
If we get rid of money, how can people who work hard buy a new Porsche?
If there is a porsche that has not claimant, or owner, then why shouldn't you claim the porsche for your use? The state does it with oil & resources... A car is a resource that the people created The people is a legal entity, so the car has no owner. We could all have one. It would be hard to impress your neighbors with it though because they would probably claim one too. It wouldn't be a status symbol any more... We have the right to USE everything that is available to us. It belongs to us because we did the work. We quarried the components, we assembled it, we did everything to create it, but we did it as slaves to the state... If we haven't been told all terms of the contract, the contract is void. I wasn't told I was enslaved by my birth cert & became property of the state, so no contract exists. The State itself cannot ask for the car, or claim it.. Only people can. so go get a porsche! A person trying to claim money for the porsche would try to stop you, but s/he is representing the State, so again, cannot lawfully stop you taking it.It is not his car..It is not the policeman's car... It is not the judges car if you are taken to court..That is how much we are fooled. The law ALLOWS for this, but people just don't know who they are. WE are the lawful authority. The state is legal, & we MUST CONSENT to the contract knowing all things...We don't because if they told us, we would say WTF? Are you mad?? It's worth learning about. We are humans, not creations of the state. Statutes apply to 'legal entities, companies... If we consent to act as a company, then we are under their jurisdiction... That's how they con us. We say our legal name in court, it is the signature to the contract... This is true. Court cases are going on in England where people are going in REPRESENTING the legal fiction... They cannot be held liable for the legal fiction... They are having fun doing it. They lost the fear of legal entities by knowing they are superior..Worth a look!! Lawyers represent the state 1st, & the people 2nd, & under the laws of their Bar society, not common law which is the only law that applies to US people. That's why you could take the porsche. Because it causes no harm or loss to anybody..
Markets would become inefficient.
yes, but would the world end because of it? There wouldn't be a need for markets because we would have stopped being ignorant of the nature of wall street, ended our 'making them rich' schemes, & they would be having to stay home making soap, & growing food....THEY would have become US...Wouldn't that be a come-down....
"There wouldn't be a need for markets"
What does this even mean? You're telling me no one, ever, would EVER need to trade anything ever again? Yeah? You're going to single-handedly provide every one of your needs? This is so far from the truth and logic that I really think we should end this section of the thread - you're too far detached from reality to continue further.
my needs are few... Not to be naked, hungry, cold or without shelter. everything else is a bonus, not a necessity. Individuals would trade their own wares that they have grown or crafted for things other people have grown or crafted. Greed would be a casualty of war. People think they 'need' everything when they have been conditioned to just' Want' everything. I actually became attached again after I left Bank of America after 6 years because I could not commit fraud against my fellow humans any more. My compassion cost me cost me 30K a year. Whether I am detached or not, the reality is, in the next few months, there will be no money. Bank accounts will be fleeced, pensions are already being fleeced. It doesn't make me detached because you don't see the elephant in the room. You think it's a chair or something useful, but it's an elephant, & it doesn't belong in civilized society... 'exchange' doesn't require corporate involvement. if we can evolve enough to use what is available locally, & become people again, they become obsolete. Why are markets such a big deal in America? Is it instilled in you, the importance of government being able to play the stock market, so you must participate to allow them to do it? Why, to subsidize more companies like Monasto to bastardize our food? & investing... WTF? So you can subsidize their research to produce a super-deadly avian flu virus as they did several days ago? I don't want viruses any more.. they have enough ways to kill us without us paying for any more. 44+ million doses of smallpox vaccine? Why? Has the research led to the recreation or reconstitution of the smallpox virus? There is only MEANT to be one sample of smallpox on the planet... If they need vaccine, they must have mobilized the disease. The State is the State the world over, so whoever releases it works for the state. The same state that plays the stock market with us as chattel. I am not chattel. Don't you interact with your local farmers for fresh vegetables, & fishmongers to get fresh, untainted food? we could make do with what is available locally, instead of trying to have everything we want, instead of what we need... I don't need the markets to survive, if you do, then you are too co-dependent to detach from the nipple of the state... They have got you by the nads...
You clearly don't understand the definition of a market. A market is where buyers and sells come together to exchange resources. So, by saying, "individuals would trade their own wares" you've agreed there is a need for markets. And currency makes those markets efficient. Do you understand this?
I do now, thanks, but it's not necessary to ME for America to have markets. If I know somebody has things I would like to use, I ask them what they would like in exchange. Corporate markets are for corporations. Exchange is just a series of checks & balances, not physical exchange. The physical exchange happens further down the line, between human beings, so it is not necessary for me to go up the line & care about the legal fiction' illusion of the process, & think that gov have done me a favor. They haven't & they don't. They care about them, & I care about me & mine... People have come to think it's necessary, but if it is only so because gov want their greedy paws in the pot. People can exchange without gov involvement is more my point. they have taken the right to grow food from us. That infringes on our unalienable right, so they should now be cut loose & we take back the right not to share their greed, & to take care of the people in your life, not those who are not.... I am not part of a community of 7 billion people. My community has borders. I don't KNOW 7 billion people so I don't need a market that caters for 7 billion.... Corporate greed sickens me. It makes me rebellious & I don't need to pander to it. Dumb, maybe... My right, certainly..
Your post was not in the least bit coherent, and I didn't really understand what you're saying or the point you're trying to make.
Money is just grease. It is needed to make none barter trade possible. It also helps sort out trade imbalances. (And before you ask fractional reserve banking started when someone realized not everyone would come to collect their gold all at the same time.) Getting rid of money would be a disaster. The issue is making sure that it doesn't all end up in very few hands, not money itself. Do you really want to need to come up with a ton of wheat, two of oats, and a dozen chickens to buy a car?
I love you. Someone who has a brain FINALLY!!
but barter trade couldn't be controlled. Money can. fractional banking came about because they had people's gold just sitting there, & they could lend on the potential interest from other lenders on gold they hadn't got from the people yet. Nobody would know they didn't have the gold to back it up, but they gave more currency than they could produce gold if asked. It is still a fraud... Why should we pay for a car? We can't OWN it. Even if we pay for it, it is still the states car because we register our own property & unknowingly give them full title, & we get to be the user. but if we don't tax it, they take it off us. By registering anything with the State, it becomes theirs because we don't state our terms & conditions, we think we have to accept theirs. We don't, & nobody in any official capacity can actually stop us from stating our own. THEY are not party to anything, so they can't interfere unless we allow it. IE, I tell my electricity company that i don't WANT to pay their (yes, their) bill within the 14 day timeframe. Mary jane writes & tells me of their TERMS for me paying their bill. I send a letter back to MJ, saying 'Thank you for your interest in MY business, but I have no agreement with YOU. If you wish to impose terms that are not your business, the I request 'the amount of the bill' from YOU personally to proceed. She must provide remedy, ie a means to pay. I don't pay the charges, just the value of electricity, because the charges are like interest. Sent letter with other letters for her manager, & CEO. A true bill must have a wet signature. If she is willing to sign a letter, that makes her & her managers accountable to offer remedy for the 'Bill'. The bill is actually a statement, not a bill, of the corporate account of the NAME you represent.. Nobody can rightfully, under contract law, request payment for something you did not receive from them personally. MJ doesn't provide my electricity... The people do. The people are not asking for the money.. The state is.. The State is actually liable to pay the bill because of the gold/fiat currency fiasco. This happens because we don't know the difference between the strawman, & the human... MJ is a strawman, a human representing a legal entity. We are strawmen in any official capacity, we represent, not present ourselves. That is why we are NOT liable for a 'state created entity'. The state is. It's worth looking up. We have ALL been fooled into liability based of the fed res fraud...
Something else would become the "new money" I just talked with a prison inmate today that told me tobacco was the currency there because there was a shortage of it and a high demand for it. The going cost was $1k per pound.
A resourced based economy is an oversimplified attempt to fool ourselves that people are by nature sharers. That is unfortunately garbage. Just like the grizzly bear on animal planet runs off all other predators from his stash of elk he has hidden people will do the same.
Nice dream you have though. I just don't see 7 billion people getting on board and it only takes a few to ruin it for all.
Do you think there would be 7 billion of us left if we had to resort to this anyway? Have you visited the Georgia Guide stones? I only saw them on the internet, but they were very impressive. Fear will do that to people, yes, but if you stay in your house until they run out of adrenalin., half of them .would be too knackered to bother you, & the rest would have been shot by robocop. That improves your odds, anyway...
Interestingly enough, a commodity based banking system was tried and seemed to be effective, although it was created in parallel to the flat money system. http://infoark.org/InfoArk/Sustainability/Mother%20Earth%20News/70/MEN_CD/mendemo/dcd/027/027-082-01.htm
it's just numbers on a screen though. there is no real money changing hands. If you go to a bank for a loan. you sign which is what you bring to the table ( terms of a contract mean BOTH parties must bring something, & your signature, or you, actually get bought & sold on the commodity market as stock. Me too. The more you owe, the more you are worth I think)Our birth certs are stock bonds. Jordan Maxwell wrote about it..that's why there are on bonded paper... Sorry, I digress.. The bank give YOU promises to pay vouchers... they give you nothing except a share in there debt. You, take the fiat currency, & agree to pay interest on it. How can you REPAY, & it is repay, because you paid it with your signature when you signed, so you don't owe the bank anything, more than the bank gave you? Where is it supposed to come from? The stock exchange? We are the real currency... Sorry, all over the place there, but it's 4a.m & it's nearly time for me to get up.... nite.
If I understand what you're saying, although Borsodi's bank was more of an experiment. Conventional flat money did in fact change hands.
If what you're saying that flat money isn't real, I agree w/ you. It's no more than a promissory note. There's no intrinsic value, and that's why the "value" fluctuates.
The venus project will never work, it's a planned economy like communism and simply won't work for many of the same reasons. (I actually spent a lot of time considering it, I'm not just saying this offhand) Subsidized Labor is a much more practical approach and much closer to what we have now. It's not a utopian view where we have to start all over like the venus project but it does have the benefit of actually being possible to implement http://subsidizedlabor.org/
You would be broke, like me--instead, let's nail them by doing this: http://occupywallst.org/forum/howtodoits-proposal-on-how-to-accomplish-the-march/
The fact that this post even got serious replies is frightening.
If OWS is for getting rid of money, you've really gone off the reservation.
It's a logical progression.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDhSgCsD_x8
Yes. A logical progression to one of the basic tenets of Marxism: The abolishment of private property.
I think some on this forum are romanticizing what it was like before money. In essence you are talking about being completely self-reliant, like a frontiersman or something. Waking with the sun, and working all day just to survive. Going to bed at night fall, just to wake up and start again. Life was simple - no doubt - but it was also very hard. It would virtually be the end of art and culture. Who would have extra resources to spend on that? It also makes the world a very small place. Your individual sphere of influence becomes miles instead of countries. It would be a shame that we would all live in virtual isolation, when the world is such a wonderful place to be experienced.
Can't really say it would be the end of art and culture - if you look at traditional tribal groups, everything they made was artistic and cultural. Even workaday tools were often highly ornamented. They made a paddle it might look like this:
http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRml-wU6hi3_pfSwdA9RFj9hXF7EqPer4pFAYgbCUY-p0ccaRnZJ-w066fW
We make a paddle it looks like this:
http://www.my-country-life.com/images/IMG_6873.JPG
Even if you're just going back to colonial life, everday objects were infinitely more artistic than what we have. What we would lose, is the separation between art and craft that makes art some other sort of thing, distinct from everyday life. But I'm not sure that's a bad thing.
Though I really don't want to have to make my own soap and all that.
Fair enough - but your exposure to art would be limited to what your "tribe" creates. It would certainly impact any thought of multi-culturalism.
great, there can be 2 camps... the great unwashed, over there please!! water actually cleans you very well. We are just used to chemicals to wash, & do everything with. Can they really be better for you than horse chestnut based soap? we would all learn skills though, so hopefully there would be a soap-maker!
I'm not knocking it, I just don't have the skills or energy to make every little thing for myself. I'm a product of industrial society and specialization. There isn't anything else stopping me from just heading up into the hills and making my own way. I mean, I'm in Canada. Its not like there's nowhere for me to go do that. I could literally disappear into the woods never to be seen again. But I don't because I know I don't have the skills to survive.
you have a computer, have you heard of Bear Grylls? He is an ex-army guy, who goes into the wild & shows us how to catch food, make an oven in a hill, keep warm & healthy in bad weather. He also eats some pretty disgusting creatures, one of which made him really sick... You can watch his shows on here, is my point. I have learned a lot of simple things that would save my life in extreme events from it. fear stops us from thinking we can, knowledge lets us know that we can & we will if needed. It's a good show, he takes Will ferral with him one time, & he hated it! Take heart anyway. We would all learn quickly if it happened. Hunger is a good teacher! & We still have time to learn as long as we still have the net..
Your ability to learn via the internet from Bear Grylls is facilitated by an economy based on money. Something as complex as the internet would be impossible in a barter society.
indeed it is. there have to be benefits, otherwise we wouldn't have allowed the system to take over everything in our lives, but they won't be here for much longer. We have to use them while we have them, to learn how to survive when it is all taken away.. It furthers my purpose for now. I still contribute to society, so i have paid my dues.(:
The
So why wait for the collapse? Why don't you just vanish into the woods now? I know why I don't. Because mortality rates were abysmal in those kinds of conditions, and I'm one of the people that probably wouldn't survive.I'll probably be in a wheelchair before too long. What will Bear Grylls have to show me then?
it would be hard, yes, but anything worth doing is hard. before money, we earned our clean food, for ourselves by working for it, not having others work for it. You are not MY slaves, & I am not your's, but we pay the slaves wages? People didn't work to subsidize government wealth. & THEN look after ourselves. computers already keep people in 'virtual' isolation from the real world anyway. how many people watch the sky? Do you notice the sunrise & sunset? no, because every single day those bloody planes come over & cover the sky/sun with nasty gray clouds.. How many of you noticed? Bet you will look tomorrow(or today, depending where you are) Take pics!! I for one am up with the sun now, & am still up now at 3a:m. Life is hard, working for 6 months before you can say any of your hard earned money is yours.. Work is good for the body & mind. Servitude is debilitating.
Precious metals would take its place.
Precious metals are money. Dollars, euros, yen are currency. By definition money must be a store of wealth i.e. retain its value. Currencies need only be a medium of exchange and unit of account.
nah, gov already took that. manual labor or skill-swapping would be good though.
Skill swapping? when the majority of Americans have no real skills at all? Think about it. People are in poverty for a reason usually. No counting the recent financial mess. They are in poverty because they have no real skills.
We have no skills here either. they stopped any kind of training courses years ago because if we had skills, we could trade. They knew what they were doing. Even babysitting is a skill though. Necessity is the mother of invention, & if TSHTF, people will find news ways of creating what they need. We just have to trust ourselves. We were created capable, we just have to get back to it. People will.
Over time people can learn to adapt, but a sudden change is going to be disastrous and lots of people are going to die or be hurt. America is too big, and our cities are too packed with angry, mentally maladjusted, drug addicted people. Shit everyone in america is an addict. If its not pot or hard drugs, its alcohol or pills. A real revolution in America would be utter chaos.
I think at this stage, there is no other way to go. people are going to die en mass no matter what we do. I didn't know if it's 'better to be a live jackel than a dead lion, but I think dead lion. I can't not stand up for my fellow men when they have so courageously stood up for me & millions of others they don't know, on wall street, & around the world. We the people is just 1. & we are a BIG entity, so may the best man win. We can war without guns & win, but we don't have to let individuals beat us while we do it. I was into gov handouts too. for parties, but i watched what it did to friends & realized why we can have pills & alcohol, & not a joint... a joint won't get you fighting in war. people are not motivated to violence, not like with alcohol, or meds... The tide is turning, it will get worse before it gets better, but it will get better.
Don't know if you lived through the days of war with England or not, but that was not a really great time in Ireland's history for the Irish people. How about the potato famine? in the 1800s over a million Irish died. We have so many people in America, that if the government collapsed, business would come to a screeching halt, and that includes the shipment of food and drugs and alcohol. I do not want to live in a country where i have to defend my family with a gun from hungry or drug addicted people if it comes down to it. Some people will beg and that is fine, but others are going to want to take at any costs. The world does not want America to collapse, even though they might think they do.
The famine was deliberate. I live in Ireland, & it is still talked about. There are 'famine' graveyards all over. They know how to hold a grudge!! what if the it's not the hungry & drug addicts? what if swat teams came to your house, dragged you out of it at gunpoint & accused you of being a terrorist for growing some tomatoes? Would you think they had the right to do that? The danger isn't each other, it's that the people are called terrorists for the most stupid reasons, so the real terrorists come to 're-educate' you? That's getting to be a more likely scenario. America has been destroyed from within, not without.. If people are accused of something, it is most often the accuser that is actually doing it! If they came to your house & you were doing nothing wrong, but they dragged you out to a Fema re-education camp, Who has actually been the terrorist? You, or the ones who made you terrified?because you lacked the imagination to come up with a 'real' argument, & told the truth, ie, 'you are terrorists', they will get away with it. Your just name-calling, because they said it 1st! childish, but true.. 'You are what you say I am', but they won't like that, & swat teams don't think they are terrorists... How can they be? Gov SAID to do it, it must be right. but is it? On our news we watched Americans get rounded up & tagged like cattle because they refused the swine flu shot. They were forced to take it or were not allowed to leave the camp. People were delighted with the yellow plastic tag they had put on them! They didn't MIND? Over here, cows have yellow plastic tags through both ears. people are not cattle, or the enemy but they are conditioned to hate independence. There are Adverts here not telling us 'If you see something, say something"..If people mind their own business, they get along fine. How many terrorists have really come from America? Yet you are ALL suspects who need to be peeping toms to spy on your neighbors.. Kids are encouraged to report parents for not recycling properly, & re-educating them! If my kids did that, they wouldn't be living with me for long! Families are being divided. America is very dangerous place now, & it isn't any other country that is the threat... Drug addicts would cold turkey in about a week, the drunks will become alcoholics instead... Not so bad?
Psssst, what's the 'points' for?
if you are considering this, do it now before a total ban on growing food comes in. They have just banned it in New Zealand I think, & FDA have already deemed nutrients drugs, & we are not entitled to them. They are a privilege. A system of no money will work if we can all learn to have enough, & not have a problem sharing, & trusting that enough will come. We are dependent on the state for everything. We need to cut the strings, be brave & strike out on our own, together.... People are resourceful & amazing. Make everyone else your main concern, & everyone will have enough... Food, shelter, comfort & company, & dare I say, Peace? People will win, be brave, be strong in unity & it will work out for us all. Here's an idea Brain, Trade your time & effort with someone who is growing food... You build a table, they provide food. Your wife makes bread, your neighbor makes butter. People are doing it, & actually finding they enjoy their family more.. The family that works together also stays together.
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You proposed it. What do you think would happen?
No recession, no unemployment, no deficit, no wars, etc...
How would anyone own an ipod? Or would we move into an era where those kinds of things do not exist?
How would one go about trading for one?
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Well more people would steal what they need and we would not be able to trade with any other country to get what we need that we cannot produce ourselves.
Hi kingscross...how much stuff from other sources do we really need? We need food, water, warmth & shelter. the 'wants' may not be met, but you wouldn't have to worry about the price of petrol1?! To think 'globally' now is futile. The middle East is being raped & pillaged as we speak for their resources. They are not for the US people though...Ireland is being fracked to within an inch of it's life... The government have debt, not the people. We pay into the system, we support it. it's their money, if we didn't need it because we could take care of ourselves, they would have no power to dictate to us. & really, gov is meant to pay OUR debts by law....
Personally I would like a world where I didn't have to worry about the price of petrol. However, without the protection of the government we as people would be at risk from other countries invading for our resources.
Governments want the resources. The people probably wouldn't. Countries don't invade anywhere but Governments send people to do it. We should not live in fear of being independent.. That is how they keep us dependent. Other Countries are probably not all psychotic killers. We can only know what we are told unless we look for ourselves if what we are told is trustworthy... You have to look at the source..
What about medical research? If people are only concerned with food, water, shelter and warmth, who would be concerned with medical research? And not just the researchers, the people who build the research facilities? That engineer the laboratories? Provide the electricity? Etc, etc...
Or is this one of the things that fall to the wayside like ipods?
we won't need much medicine because WE won't be polluting the water of food. People will be healthy.
I don't remember there being pollution when the black plague happened. Pollution is not the only source of sickness to worry about.
well rats hate clean, & it was the fleas that carried the disease. London sewers were very bad. I think the sewer was the Thames at the time.... & the rats came off the boats on the Thames... It isn't the only one to worry about, but it is one we can change if we stop adding to it. & really, the air, water & food are all being systematically polluted. Every thing we eat has contaminants, & stuff in it we don't know what it is & what it does...
Yeah, clean is good for us humans.
Sounds like a paradise for you. You do know that there is nothing stopping you from living the dream, right? A little land in Cali or Montana. You too could be livin' the dream.
one day... I do like peace. it's well under-rated.
I've thought about it. Life on the city seems too hectic nowadays.
So there would be no ipods? Just an example, but that is what you are implying.
What about air conditioning? Electricity? Natural gas for heating and cooking?
you probably wouldn't need air conditioning living in a tent while you build your house, but ok, We can put a flap at the back of yours... Can you light a campfire? You'll be F-I-N-E..... push-bike dynamo, you'll be laughing & FIT.. Nothing worthwhile is easy... But live upstream a bit, even I could make a waterwheel. or windmill/turbine. I'd get help with hooking it up, but a winch system could potentially be made to store the power with a rope, if you think about it... Like the(don't know if you did, but)winding an elastic band(might need a rubber tree after all), around the axle of a model car, then letting it go to see how far it went on on full wind... Systems don't need hi tech to be effective...
nope, none of that. We'll be wipin' our butts with leaves, but everything will be free, we'll just have to work for it. It won't be bad, were just used to having everything around us. & if it isn't, we go to the shop... We would soon adapt & actually even enjoy life..
what about retirement? Do I depend on the goodness of others to support me when I want to retire? And what if I want to retire now? Do I need to stock pile a ton of food before I can retire? I can always BEG for food. But then I have become a beggar instead of a worker.
Again, money is a tool that I can trade my time now for items later.
funny story. Families & people, would you believe, used to care enough to make sure everybody was taken care of. Old fashioned, I know, but it COULD work? just, throwing that out there... My son often reminds me he will get to pick my old lady home, so I'd better be nice.... that's what he thinks.. He will be growing my food for me! People are not burdens, any more than they 'be' illegal... they have just been turned into that by reliance on money... Would you throw your mom out of your tent because she couldn't chop the wood any more? i thought that question once, & was surprised to realize that, yes, I would. I also realized that was terrible, & I looked long & hard at what I had become. Hence, I stopped with the hi-tech for a while & realized 'If I lived in a tent, it wasn't going to cost me more to keep her, so i would let her stay. I felt better then...
really though, there should be never a need to beg for anyone. If there is food, it should be for whoever needs it. If people take what they need, there is an abundance. There should be no starving now, in light of what is destroyed each year being enough to feed the worlds hungry for 2 years. It's just because of profit..
Money is a tool. It allows me to trade my time and efforts for the time and efforts of others.
Without money, I would have to trade my time and efforts for food and I would have to do that 3 times a day, every day.
Did it ever occur to you that you are going through the "stupid" phase of your life right now? With a little effort and thought, you can snap out of it in the same way you stopped pooping your diaper a couple years ago.
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then you'd be pushing a shopping cart down the street with your belongings duh most of these posts are retarded
Did it ever occur to you that you are going through the "stupid" phase of your life right now? With a little effort and thought, you can snap out of it in the same way you stopped pooping your diaper a couple years ago.
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What is money? I read the formal documentation of the Federal Reserve Banking Swindle, and found that all they trade in are "balances".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dc3sKwwAaCU
More OWS idiocy. Better than Letterman.
Money is how we value someone of great effort or ambition over someone of limited ambition and effort. Why would anyone try to cure cancer or do brain surgery if he got the same income as a ditch digger?
Gaffaw, gaffaw.
Why shouldn't they actually work for the greater good, instead of just saying they are?. Money is how they value themselves, & how they collectively value their ego's. People no longer become doctors to help people. Otherwise, they wouldn't give us pills after pills after pills. Big Pharma is big business. Doctors work for them, not us. their wage does not reflect MY value of them. It reflects the States...
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resource based economy
http://www.freepatriotism.com
When i didn't have a skill to trade you for food, i would just have to kill you instead and take what i need to feed my family. America is filled with 10s of millions of people with little or no skills. Doesn't sound like a very good system. Bartering only works well when people have skills and can offer a trade in kind for what they need. Even collectives that have operated for decades have broken down.
My countrymen are unskilled too, but I could make soup from your bones after I killed you protecting myself... only kidding. (:. Everyone can grow food. I know nettles have almost every nutrient a body needs to be healthy. roots are good to eat, while waiting for things to grow. oils & plants make better medicine & no side effects... There is even a plant that can be used for broken bones...It sets like plaster.... We don;t know about it collectively because we are not meant to know how to take care of ourselves if we have to. we go to the state & ask it to fix it.. realizing this now gives us the chance to prepare, that;s all. but while we have the internet, it's a waste not to find out.... knowledge is power, not money when money is fading fast. The euro is almost defunct here already. There will be one world currency next, & it will be biometric... credits will be allocated for your obedience... It is on the cards. 'night peeps...
People read my comment wrong. i wouldn't kill anyone willingly. Only in self defense. The point was that if they take this action so far as to cause real instability in America, there are going to be a lot of desperate people who will kill someone for food. People just aren't thinking about the ramifications of their actions and refuse to work on a different plan.
It is the reality though. We will be forced into that situation. Most people wouldn't choose it, but if we must we probably will.. America is no longer stable. It is a fighting force. It can afford wars for oil & resources, but the people do not matter. Soldiers get taken care of though...
Oh we're already heading in that direction, all we have to do is keep on going on as we have been going on.
Also your point about barter (not that I support getting rid of money, I don't): how is what you've said any different with money? You say, "Bartering only works well when people have skills and can offer a trade in kind for what they need." But that's just as true of money, which doesn't work well if you have no skills or anything to offer either.
Right. but for the people who have no skills or money, the government gives it to them. 47 million on food stamps. If you shut down the government those 47 million now don't have a way to get food. Even more on welfare and other government assistance. America would devolve into a mess if we had such instability as Egypt. I know people right now who are building bunkers and buying massive amount of weapons and storing ammo, just in preparation for this type of event. They are more than happy to shoot people invading their property. Its really madness. People are unstable, and mental health issues are rampant through our society.
That's not a function of money though, that's a function of the social safety net. No reason you couldn't redistribute goods without money, in fact this is often done in disaster situations already. Again, not that I support getting rid of money.
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Without automated technology performing menial tasks our quality of life will drop because people will stop performing mundane tasks money coerces them to perform.
Without automation, new forms of coercion will take the place of money through violence. Slave labor would no longer remain hidden behind dollar bills and the social contract it creates. Instead people will simply put a gun to your head demanding you to perform labor for them.
The sharing idea only functions as long as there is abundant access to vital resources. If a scarcity of 'access' to vital resources occurred in one area, the idea of sharing would not last. If a nation of the world lacks water, food, etc. they will go after another nation's resources. A no money society will only last if a new social contract were created at a global scale. If we can create and maintain abundance through automated technologies, sure money is an outdated tool and we could potentially live a higher quality lifestyle.
So the idea would work if people weren't so afflicted by affluenza, their unhealthy desire to hoard, and if we applied automated technologies to sustainably meet our needs.
http://thevenusproject.com/en/the-venus-project/resource-based-economy
If there is one thing this nation doesn't lack is food and water.
And I'm sure other nations would quickly get rid of their money if they start seeing it as an inconvenience.
As for someone putting a gun in your head... what would they gain from that?
It's not about food and water in this country.
It's about all the amenities: the multiple cars, the running refrigerator, the t.v., the lawn, the healthcare, the pension, and the prestige that comes with having lots of money/stuff. It's about affluence and people's addiction to money/stuff.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P7_w3w9VLIw
And as for the gun. If you steal items, refuse to pay taxes or your mortgage, a police officer arrests you. Refuse and they place a gun to your head. This is the current social contract. Police are simply doing their duty (their job) to make money.
As for completely eliminating money all at once, many won't give away their assets because they don't trust their community to share with them. They'll use force to defend their stuff from their perceived 'enemies'. And a small minority are genuine sociopaths that enjoy the power of being able to manipulate others.
So getting to the point where money and extra 'stuff' are perceived as inconveniences will take a massive consciousness shift.
Do you want America to sink, or are you looking for WW3? Because we do live in a world with other country's. How would we interact with other country's?
other countries people are actually suffering this enslavement too.. we are all the people... & WW3 is affecting them already. I care about all of us. I know that US news is blacked out much of the time. My son's girlfriend lives is CA.(Is that California)? She only heard about occupy on your media last week. The only thing i object to American-wise is the bloody spellchecker on my computer!!! It keeps correcting my English, & I am English! It does my head in. I may be flippant a bit, because you have to laugh... but this situation is very serious & we all face it. One world government is dangerous to us. It is exactly what Hitler was doing. another false flag. WW1 started the same way. the attacker attacks itself & blames who they want to attack...
Sorry, WW3 already started. Iran? Iraq? Afghanistan? Syria? Africa? Libya? All occupied by American forces... Oh, & yesterday, they told Australia they were occupying them too. Those 'other countries' are not people. WE are..(& the people who live there, are.)They are corporations, like the US is a corporation. Don't have a go if that makes you angry. It is true. America's biggest threat to the people is it's own government fighting wars it's people can't afford when they are hungry & need medicine themselves, yet gov is intent on occupying 110 countries by the end of the year. madrid fault, caused by fracking, corexit poison in gulf of mexico, cause:drilling for oil Japan radiation in US, cause: giving us dirty dangerous power that they cannot control. Morgellans, cause by chemspray. mass fish die offs around the world.. Japan china syndrome & putting contaminated water into the ocean. Dead zones all around US & European coast? The Worlds people are under attack by the Anglo-American union & the UN.... Nothing is unplanned. They can spot a hair on a gnat's knacker, but they can't pinpoint a satellite the size of a bus falling from the sky? Of course they can...
I know but what i am saying is with out ruling the world this no money idea could never work. I also would never want a world government. WE DO NOT RULE THE WORLD!!!
Why would we need to rule the world to get rid of money?
We don't make everything we consume. I guess you don't need gas in your car though right?
America is 15th in the world for oil reserves. If gov weren't milking it, that would keep you the people for 30 years or so if you used it yourselves. You would find other, cleaner fuel in that time. That is free, clean & easy to obtain. Both wind & water are that. There are cars that run on water, so the technology works,,It is just a secret..for now. It has been patented more than once though, I do know that. No money in either of those.. Your land is rich but the people have been usurped, & everything is being stolen from the land...We are just so used to having everything right in front of us, it's hard to imagine how else we can do it, but we can & will.
I'm not a conspiracy theory nut or anything, but I do believe when they say the gas industry has been suppressing alternative fuels.
it is all about money. making the most from the least effort & resource... Gov keep the prices up because they can. We need it, but they don't own it. They have claimed it. People should do that too. As their share of the nations wealth... It is within their rights. the wealth from the oil should be shared, & your own supply should be free...
Do you bank your future on winning the lottery? Maybe they have suppressed technology, maybe.
I don't do the lottery. I can get obsessed by things, a bit of a junkie.... If I like something, I like it a lot.. Was a great day/month/year when I discovered alcohol!! :)...I couldn't afford to like gambling too.. I read about project blue beam, & Haarp , so don't know what else is hiding yet. Will let you know.. I got curious about what's really happening to us.. & got hooked on that instead! US has some great technology that has just been released... like what they developed from the Philadelphia experiment... invisibility material. it's on the internet.... Google can find anything.
& we do not need to be ruled... It has been done to us. It doesn't make it right. no person has authority over the world or even another human being. No king has stood up to claim this global governance, & until they do, there is nobody to obey. If it's by force we are made to obey, they that is terrorism by definition, surely?