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Forum Post: What do you guys want, and how do you plan to do it?

Posted 2 years ago on Dec. 7, 2011, 3:29 p.m. EST by wonder (79)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

Sorry if you take the title negatively... I hope you can understand the innocent curiosity behind it.You should really get some kind of representative so people know exactly what you want. (:

Edit: What amendments, acts, clauses, etc. would you like to see amended or repealed? What new acts would you agree with? If you were to make your own act, what would it entail?

121 Comments

121 Comments


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[-] 3 points by MrMiller (128) from Sandy, UT 2 years ago

I want transparency in politics, which includes more coverage of political conversation that isn't pathetically short and staged like a reality show. I also want more coverage of congressional debates and anything else that really matters. This includes forming separate channels for this.

[-] 2 points by jppt (82) 2 years ago

Us guys want our fair share but we need the power 1st to get it and that is what we are working on , getting the power. We will be more powerful than the 1%.

[-] 2 points by wonder (79) 2 years ago

So... occupy wall street participants just want some coffee?

[-] 1 points by richardkentgates (3269) from Fort Walton Beach, FL 2 years ago

i have a project that is gaining some traction. the entire point is to address your very question. http://citicommons.com

[-] 1 points by wonder (79) 2 years ago

Still... I hope you can understand that America will listen to a representative a lot more so than thousands of single opinions... Or at least like a council or something. Judging by the declaration that you are a leaderless organization, I don't know if that would work since that could be considered as some sort of leader... I still feel like you guys would be a lot better off political-momentum-wise if there was some kind of ultra definitive unification

[-] 2 points by richardkentgates (3269) from Fort Walton Beach, FL 2 years ago

idk about that homie. OWS seems to be having the desired effect as it is structured now.

[-] 1 points by jppt (82) 2 years ago

I think the problem is the occupiers are use to being screwed by their leaders and so don't want one. Representative is another name for leader. As far as what do the guys want , 99% of everything.

[-] 1 points by wonder (79) 2 years ago

Hmmm... ok I can see that. I suggested that so that there would be the possibility of commonality declared by someone so everyone would know what you're all about. Something to go by. I mean, I understand you want to reform government, especially governmental laws, reforms, acts, etc. pertaining to wall street. There aren't any laws or acts specifically mentioned and applicable to all protesters you want to change or add. Ok, (if I may infer) your goal is basically, you want your fair share. 99% wants the 99%. Ok goal established. How will you accomplish this?

[-] 1 points by jppt (82) 2 years ago

I will accomplish this by helping the occupiers grow in strength until they are 100%.

[-] 1 points by rickMoss (435) 2 years ago

That's easy. We want what's ours.

JOIN THE REVOLUTION Read “Common Sense 3.1” at ( www.revolution2.osixs.org )

FIGHT THE CAUSE - NOT THE SYMPTOM We don’t have to live like this. "Spread the News"

[-] 1 points by wonder (79) 2 years ago

Ok an understandable goal. So how will you get what's yours?

[-] 1 points by rickMoss (435) 2 years ago

Follow Me!

Read “Common Sense 3.1” at ( www.revolution2.osixs.org )

We need a smart revolution. Why are we (the majority) begging for crumbs. It makes no sense to me.

[-] 1 points by barb (835) 2 years ago

Are you the enemy?

[-] 1 points by wonder (79) 2 years ago

Define "enemy"

[-] 1 points by stuartchase (861) 2 years ago

I want this company taken down.

http://occupywallst.org/forum/make-a-stand-join-the-clan/

The Revolution starts here!

[-] 1 points by Restorefreedomtoall1776 (272) from Bayonne, NJ 2 years ago

Similar questions were asked when many American colonists decided to defy King George III and seek freedom from British tyranny and despotic rule.

[-] 1 points by raychel (37) 2 years ago

I would like to see a moral and ethical change in business practices. I would like to see the words in food labels say: Flour, eggs, sugar, milk, baking soda. Abolish words like natural, %100 and spices.

Do you see the problem now? My biggest anger as a stay at home mom is the food and pharmaceutical industry. Yes, these changes can come from higher up the chain. Starting with their brains. They need to engage them.

I am not a politician. I can not write an amendment, act or clause for you. But, I can swear at you and tell you that you are stupid for not knowing what we want.

I want massive large scale change for the better of humanity and the planet earth. Hell, even outer space for that matter. I am also, livid about how much trash we have circling the planet. I am just mad about everything. I want my government back. A government by the people, for the people. Liberty and Justice For ALL.

Large corporations and wall street need to come down. And, let us start over. If you, and they, are so dense that your only comment is "what do you want" (whiny voice included), then disappear and let us start over. Go away. Take your trillions, close up shop in the USA and go somewhere else.

Boo hoo, will our poor little economy collapse? Yes. Quit whining. This economy that you tout as "so precious" is not any good for anyone but you and them. You are worried about the collapse? I welcome it. Those corporations that are bad, have ruined everything. The greed and corruption has evaded every aspect of our nation and society. Yes, that is what I said. "Every Aspect".

Everyone here is mad about a different reason. Why? Because there are so many reasons to be mad about. We would need to make a thousand amendments to cover them all. Is there is a simpler solution? Yes. Be Nice! That's it. All Large Corporations need to do is be nice!

Can we trust them to be nice? No! Years of treachery, deceit, lies, back stabbing, milking us like cash cows while they poison us, poisoning our children in the school food system, brainwashing, propaganda, slogans, infiltrating our government, ruining our economy, murder, sweatshops, lies, continuation of said sweatshops, cover ups...I could rant on for hours.

They are incapable of being nice. They are evil and need harsh severe large restrictions. Muzzles, chains and tazers should do it.

[-] 1 points by wonder (79) 2 years ago

I apologize for my ignorance of you opinion... there isn't a set of specifics posted anywhere applicable to all wall street protesters and in that there lies my confusion: Although you have your opinion it unfortunately doesn't apply to every protester... and equally for them: i.e. you may not agree with something someone else from this group does. And I'm sorry but I must say, if there was a law that said "all major corporations must be nice" I get the feeling it wouldn't roll over too well. And I somewhat doubt that muzzles chains and tazers are exactly solutions... but I suppose you're just frustrated and understandably so. You seem to generalize relatively liberally on the corporations... evil? really? And severe large restrictions that seems a bit oppressive. And kind of contradictory towards liberty and justice for ALL, as you stated.

[-] 1 points by AFarewellToKings (1486) 2 years ago

We , OWS99%, have basic needs. Where humans need food, air, water, warmth, love, the movement needs voices and solidarity.

OWS99% was born and has had it's needs met, it's surviving. We all have high hopes for this movement. That's the ONE thing we want, we want the movement to survive, grow up big and strong, be open, and sensitive (human, decent, comfortable, safe, happy).

The prognosis isn't as rosy as some might like to believe but it's still in it's infancy and there is every reason to believe in it's viability.

OWS99% needs a booster, a shot in the arm. Winter is here, we would have perished in the tents. The nanny knew that but shouldn't have been so angry about it. Don't let our bitterness or embarrassment prevent us from doing the right thing now. We clearly need the booster shot, go get it. There is no reason to fear this medicine. Be brave.

There is a place in Philadelphia that is highly recommended with a proven track record. Included in it's former patients were 13 young colonies. The facility has been reserved, preparations are underway for our visit on July 4th 2012.

The National General Assembly, or 'Third Continental Congress', will do the one thing we all want OWS99% to do, survive, live, grow up and help make the world a better place.

In solidarity Farewell

[-] 1 points by ZenDog (13494) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

we plan to subvert

every single institution in America

to the Will of the People

How can this possibly be done?

With Peace

Truth

And the Weight of Public Opinion

And how is it that we are possessed of such Audacity?

the answer to that is very simple.

We are Americans.

[-] 1 points by kingscrossection (1203) 2 years ago

If I opened a business would you want control of it?

[-] 1 points by ZenDog (13494) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

that's just silly.

Do I look like a businessman?

. . . . and it's clickable . . .

[-] 1 points by nucleus (3291) 2 years ago

Nope. But I would want it regulated and taxed, depending of course on the kind of business.

[-] 1 points by kingscrossection (1203) 2 years ago

What do you mean by regulated?

[-] 1 points by nucleus (3291) 2 years ago

If financial, SEC and other agency monitoring and review. If industrial, EPA review for pollution, carbon emissions, etc.; in general regulated appropriate to the kind of business being conducted. In all cases subject to employment and labor laws, anti-trust laws, etc.

[-] 1 points by kingscrossection (1203) 2 years ago

Sounds fair to me

[-] 1 points by wonder (79) 2 years ago

So... socialism?

[-] 1 points by wonder (79) 2 years ago

And you're going to peace,truth, and public weight this into effect?

[-] 1 points by ZenDog (13494) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

Do you not plainly see that your own investment in these matters?

have you not been around the forum long enough to see what some of these matters are and how they affect you personally?

Your own property value perhaps,

a 401k

or your own childrens' future?

Perhaps you have none of these things at all.

Perhaps you have no investment in the outcome.

If so, why are you here?

Perhaps . . .

to sow doubt and division?

[-] 1 points by wonder (79) 2 years ago

What's up with the like, poetic stuff? Like, what your saying would look good on an advertisement but I'm just wondering how this subversion back to the people is going to take place. I see single opinions and single ideas, but nothing definitive. And peace truth and public weight are somewhat vague ways of amending government... I'm doubting because there's only nebulous ideas this group agrees on. I'm not sowing division, but perceiving it. I am here to understand and put a definition behind what an occupy wall street protester plans to do, but the only definition (if you look below to richardkentgates comment) is that the term "OWS protester" is nothing more than a title.

[-] 1 points by ZenDog (13494) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

Think of the universe, a kaleidoscope of swirling particles, all gravitating toward a center.

In time the particles collect into larger objects, and then these collect into massive bodies, all in orbit . . .

What is that gravitational force at the center?

Truth.

And the truth is the people have been robbed. The truth is the robbery will continue, unless Americans stand up and say NO.

They did that with the attempt at new bank fees.

the Occupy Movement is young yet, we have not had time to coalesce into a solid body, but we will.

There is corruption within our system of government. It includes the massive amounts of campaign contributions that corporations may now spend. This is insane.

This will change.

We the People will make it change.

Do you not see a personal benefit in such change?

[-] 1 points by wonder (79) 2 years ago

Like, speak straight. I do believe that a change is necessary. There I agree. But what examples of truth help you change, and by that truth what politically will you affirm? I feel like i'm talking to the physical manifestation of being high.

[-] 1 points by ZenDog (13494) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

I feel like i'm talking to the physical manifestation of being high.

Well no wonder. Like I posted above:

the massive amounts of campaign contributions that corporations may now spend . . . . is insane.

It is no wonder the depth of surreality you feel when contemplating such facts may be overwhelming.

That's alright. Sit down. Breath.

[-] 1 points by whisper (212) 2 years ago

I'd like to see the commerce clause abolished, the government's monopoly on the legal production of currency revoked, the principles of the declaration of independence included in the constitution (specifically that rights are granted to all human beings by the fact that they exist, chief among those rights being the right to life [which means the right to provide for one's own life], and that governments are instituted amongst men [solely] to protect their rights).

I'm out for congressmen to represent me :)

But first someone has to run for congress who understands the legitimate purpose of government, the source of human rights, what those rights are, the difference between resources to which the concept of ownership can be applied and those to which it can't, and is willing to think about methods to protect this planet and its people which rights and government are not sufficient to accomplish.

[-] 1 points by Howtodoit (1232) 2 years ago
[-] 1 points by fucorporatemedia (451) 2 years ago

I want them to stop speculating on our necessities right now!

How is anyone supposed to recover financially, or even survive at this point, when the price of our food, gas and heating is twice as much as it should be?

Why have grocery costs grown so high? Just normal inflation right? Think again.

Goldman Sachs has caused this!

Goldman Sachs and other bankers are gaming the system, driving the costs of commodities higher and higher with a derivative they made up just for this purpose “the Goldman Sachs Commodity Index”…just to make themselves more money.

Then there is Koch driving up the cost of oil...First oil derivative is introduced to Wall Street by traders at Koch. Koch Industries executive Lawrence Kitchen devised the “first ever oil-indexed price swap between Koch Industries and Chase Manhattan Bank. http://getsmartnews.com/news/243459

Why are we allowing this to continue? People are starving all over the world because of this rise in food costs. It is absurd to allow them to game our necessities.

The president of Argentina recently spoke of this:

"Argentina does not intend to present itself as a model or an example for anybody, but we do intend to reaffirm the need to formulate clear rules regarding the transfer of capital, regarding financial speculation...

"When you look at the growth of global financial stocks as a proportion of global GDP, that is, of the goods and services we produce as a group of citizens and businesses around the world, you can clearly see why we are dealing with a world in which there seems to be no brake on speculation... There is a formidable spread between what we produce, and what is in what I call the 'Enter' economy, because in fact if we try to find those assets, it's just a matter of hitting 'Enter' on a computer and they are transferred from one place to another, from one currency to another, producing volatility such as has never been seen in the markets, as well as recurring crises where the stock markets rise and fall daily, creating a destruction of thousands of jobs, but also phenomenal profits which somebody carts off...

"Unfortunately, we are in the same situation [as two years ago], because other than changes which I characterize as entirely cosmetic, nothing of substance has been done about needed regulation... And when these political transformations occur as a result of great economic crises, there are experiences that I won't mention, where totalitarianism has arisen many times during the 20th Century as a result of crises that have not been adequately solved based on politics."

[-] 1 points by OccupyCentre (263) 2 years ago

I agree. Goldman Sach has done a lot of bad things. I am no anti-Semite, and I know the outfit has some Jewish connections, and people are afraid to criticise them because of this. However, they have defrauded Jewish people also, and have plenty of rotten Christian and Muslim executives also. Lets get the bad guys whoever they are, irrespective of gender, class, creed, etc.

[-] 1 points by AngryPancho (17) 2 years ago

I'd like the leaches off me before I get started. Throw everyone in Wall Street onto the unemployment line and let them earn a decent living instead of stealing it from either the Treasury or the poor widow down the street, though to my mind anyone stupid enough to buy this Master of the Universe crap, deserves to end up penniless, I admit.

[-] 0 points by darkhound (66) 2 years ago

Great, destroy the NYC economy. The finance industry is one of the few things we still do well in this country. Kill it and kill NYC - the nation's largest city and biggest economy. Smart move.

[-] 1 points by AngryPancho (17) 2 years ago

I suppose if this were Thailand you'd be lamenting the death of prostitution. The finance industry is garbage and it's infecting everything we do. We either recognize it for what it is, or sink into the gutter with it.

[-] 0 points by darkhound (66) 2 years ago

Shows your lack of knowledge of the Thai economy. Exports account for 2/3 of their GDP. The finance industry and Wall St. greed has been with us since the 1800s and helped make America. Your proposal to get rid of it is stupid.

[-] 1 points by AngryPancho (17) 2 years ago

I believe your stat like I believe the Fed's been audited. Perhaps they mean the GDP they'll admit to? The entire finance industry could be run FAR more judiciously by the government and without being burdened by the quest for excessive profits. The industry is an embarrassment when it isn't busy trying to corrupt the government.

[-] 1 points by richardkentgates (3269) from Fort Walton Beach, FL 2 years ago

lol. no sir. the people made this country great. wall street without labor is nothing. labor without wall street will still produce. finance can be achieved in all sorts of ways. labor cannot, and yes it can be done by automation, somebody had to build the assembly line too.

[-] 0 points by darkhound (66) 2 years ago

No one has ever said that Wall St. alone made the US economy. Instead, what I said was that Wall St. has been and continues to be essential. Read.

[-] 1 points by richardkentgates (3269) from Fort Walton Beach, FL 2 years ago

it's not essential. " finance can be achieved in all sorts of ways." Read

[Removed]

[-] 0 points by darkhound (66) 2 years ago

You can "achieve" finance? Cool. Finance can be "achieved" without a finance industry? Smart.

[-] 1 points by wonder (79) 2 years ago

I just think there's too much generalization in this. I think the rich are ignorant to the poor, but also vice versa. Its a lot harder to listen when everyone's yelling. People are taking sides on this and there's too much one-sidedness.

[-] 1 points by richardkentgates (3269) from Fort Walton Beach, FL 2 years ago

you're drawing on false parallels.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finance

and yeah smart ass, achieve. you wana sound smart, try not looking stupid.

fi·nance/ˈfīnans/

Noun: The management of large amounts of money, esp. by governments or large companies.

Verb: Provide funding for (a person or enterprise).

Synonyms: noun. finances verb. fund - sponsor - bankroll

[-] 0 points by darkhound (66) 2 years ago

That's not the way you are using the word.

Take mergers and acquisitions. That requires a finance industry. But that's not "achieving" finance is it?

[-] 1 points by OccupyCentre (263) 2 years ago

Yes. The objective of the Movement is to "end the monied corruption of our Democracy".

To achieve this, we will keep protesting until it happens.

[-] 2 points by wonder (79) 2 years ago

Yes, but how exactly? I mean...hmmm.... If you were to prepare an act stating exactly how this would logistically and politically work out to what you want, what would it entail?

[-] 1 points by JProffitt71 (222) from Colorado Springs, CO 2 years ago

I don't believe it is enough for us to protest, we have to unify the country behind it too. My experience with bystanders/opposition has been telling me that everyone across the spectrum agrees with this point, specifically reforming campaign finance and lobbying, but don't even realize this is something OWS is about. There is a spectacular opportunity to grow here and diversify, we just need to make this point everyone agrees on much clearer and louder to the public.

[-] 1 points by OccupyCentre (263) 2 years ago

Reforming corporate finance and lobbying are all part of ending the monied corruption of our Democracy. We have a Mission Statement, which is like the Constitution. Of course, the Constitution also has amendments, and we could have those later also. We are growing and diversifying. We are still a protest Movement, leaderless and non political.

[-] 1 points by JProffitt71 (222) from Colorado Springs, CO 2 years ago

No, I understand completely. I want one thing in particular: money out of politics. This means campaign finance reform, lobby reform (Specifically limitations/banning thereof), and a new elected Congress.

I am going to try starting a petition to address OWS, and encourage it to rally behind this issue specifically, for there is no shortage of people who don't want to associate with OWS for all its chaos, but who share this sentiment.

In addition to this, but secondary, I would like legislation providing incentive for establishment of employee companies. There are no shortage of benefits that would arise from this.

[-] 2 points by wonder (79) 2 years ago

See, you know what I'm getting at. I mean the basis of my questioning is so that I can gain information on this movement for a research project, and that I am a bit curious. But alas, unfortunately you are but one amongst a sea of opinions and ideas. I'm sure there are a lot of members that agree with your idea, but perhaps want to change it in a different way. I suppose the answers I'm looking for are applicable to all OWS members, but my perception so far (hopefully you take no insult) is that you aren't unified. Sure there are thousands of individuals, but no standardization among the group. The only real unification I'm seeing is this nebulous idea of amending the government, and occupancy throughout the country

[-] 1 points by JProffitt71 (222) from Colorado Springs, CO 2 years ago

I am not insulted, I am well aware that that is the reality. I want to try and change that, because there is a huge base of people listening to this who agree with each other, but don't even know it because of how scattered the movement is in terms of ideas. I would like to expand that unification to general expressed points, if nothing else. I feel like that's my purpose here.

Edit: I wish you luck on your research project!

[-] 1 points by richardkentgates (3269) from Fort Walton Beach, FL 2 years ago
[-] 1 points by JesseHeffran (3903) 2 years ago

to make if fair, shouldn't that language apply to Unions too? that way both factions have to donate their money to PAC. Political action Committees are transparent vehicles of political support. i'd also like to know who donates to the US Chamber of Commerce.

[-] 2 points by richardkentgates (3269) from Fort Walton Beach, FL 2 years ago

i would like to see all of them cut out. i am in favor of public funded campaigns. if you cut off corporations, it seems to me that legislation should soon follow with regard to everything else.

[-] 1 points by wonder (79) 2 years ago

That sounds like basically exactly what I need, but the page is coming up blank...):

[-] 1 points by richardkentgates (3269) from Fort Walton Beach, FL 2 years ago

lmao. my bad. i forgot to set the share on it. it's good now.

[-] 1 points by richardkentgates (3269) from Fort Walton Beach, FL 2 years ago

hmmm. ok. i'll fix it in a sec. it's a pdf. you must be using internet explorer 7?

[-] 1 points by wonder (79) 2 years ago

I'm using mozilla firefox right now... I got to your "profile"? yeah... whatever that is, and I'm getting all the videos fine, just when I click on the page it just says "occupied amendment" at the top with no pdf download link... hmmm. maybe my computer's just being dumb today

[-] 1 points by richardkentgates (3269) from Fort Walton Beach, FL 2 years ago

idk. i'm on Ubuntu/Chrome. working. try the refresh/reload, ff doesn't like to reload the cache.

[-] 1 points by JProffitt71 (222) from Colorado Springs, CO 2 years ago

Actually it doesn't come up on chrome either, not sure why.

To wonder, if you haven't heard about the occupied amendment, you can read more about it here as well:

http://www.theoccupiedamendment.org/?gclid=COucnMrx8KwCFQMDQAodwTdVJw

Edit2: Ah good!

[-] 2 points by richardkentgates (3269) from Fort Walton Beach, FL 2 years ago

i just got done playing with it. it should be fine now.

[-] 1 points by JProffitt71 (222) from Colorado Springs, CO 2 years ago

Indeed it does, I am aware of that amendment and see it as just the beginning of change. This should be evidence enough that this is a clear and concise goal that OWS can stand behind and unify people with.

[-] 1 points by richardkentgates (3269) from Fort Walton Beach, FL 2 years ago

check out my other articles, i have a vid about the NEED act as well.

[-] 1 points by richardkentgates (3269) from Fort Walton Beach, FL 2 years ago

i want a cup of coffee. i will occupy my kitchen for a moment. be right back.

[-] 2 points by richardkentgates (3269) from Fort Walton Beach, FL 2 years ago

i now have coffee. victory is mine!

[-] 0 points by Doc4the99 (591) from Washington, DC 2 years ago

Separation of corporations and state via revolution via protests until the status quo is changed. Eliminate money i.e. corporate money out of politics and eliminate shawdow banking. Hold CEOs like IMF global accountable to fraud.

Re invest all the money from propping up zombie bamks to education and health care reimvestment in the US and other infrastructures. Keep protesting until these ends are met.

[-] 0 points by betuadollar (-313) 2 years ago

Personally, I don't think we need radical change... so maybe just one line, a few little words, declaring me "King of the World."

[-] 1 points by wonder (79) 2 years ago

Declaration of OWS section 1.1 Firstly, foremost and entirely, we declare betuadollar the entitlement of "King of the World". (insert some cool signatures here) Is that good?

[-] 1 points by betuadollar (-313) 2 years ago

Yup, that'll work. And as my first lawful decree:

I, betudular, King, Lord and Protector of the all Holy Alliance of France, Belgium, Germany, and Spain, etc., etc... Guatemala, Nairobi, and Nepal... the Baltics, the Batiks, and the even the Bunticks... the Canary Islands, the Philippine Islands, and especially the Caribbean Islands... and also Hoboken, NJ... and all lands that have heretofore ever existed or shall ever exist, past, present, and future... both above and below the sea, regardless of the current tide, including all Moon Tides (as ruler of all, both above and below)... etc. and etc and etc...

By these powers vested in me, do hereby lawfully Declare and Decree that our "Mission of Oneness" is hereby complete, and you can all bow and go home now.

[Deleted]

[-] 1 points by wonder (79) 2 years ago

Law 1: I own everything forever. Law 2. Bow and go home.

[-] 0 points by KirkVanHouten (123) 2 years ago

I think what they really want is chocolate milk. When my 2 year old whines incoherently, that usually seems to satisfy him.

[-] 2 points by wonder (79) 2 years ago

Chocolate milk>alcohol

[-] 0 points by Frizzle (520) 2 years ago

What do you want yourself?

[-] 1 points by wonder (79) 2 years ago

Haha I just want a definitive answer of what you guys want and how you plan to do it. Maybe a step by step process. Or statements declaring the beliefs and governmental ideals agreed upon by all wall street protesters.

[-] 1 points by richardkentgates (3269) from Fort Walton Beach, FL 2 years ago

i think your implication is that you have the solution to a problem that we don't have. it's decentralized and will stay that way. your guidance is not required or welcome. if you have a project to share, we are all ears.

[-] 1 points by RobPenn (116) 2 years ago

I don't see an implication at all. I think that Wonder sees the same thing I do; ambiguity.

I'm not an Occupier, but I want dialogue with OWS. Dialogue is difficult, if possible at all, without something that represents the occupy movement. It doesn't have to be a leader who was in some way appointed, nor does it even have to be a person. If there was something that every member of OWS could point to and say "that's me," then people like me who want to understand have something to converse with. If not, then all I have is thousands of people who continually say "something is wrong."

So far, the only thing I've gotten that appears across the board is something to the effect of "the way America does money is bad, or even wrong." I've seen references to corporate influence in elections, and I have seen a lot of demands to abolish all student loan debt. Beyond that, the closest thing to a representative of concrete end goals is the proposed list of demands ( http://occupywallst.org/forum/proposed-list-of-demands-please-help-editadd-so-th/ ), and even that specifically says it's not official.

If I am so conditioned by the market and government as it is that I can't see what you're getting at, but I WANT to see what you're getting at, where do I go to?

[-] 1 points by richardkentgates (3269) from Fort Walton Beach, FL 2 years ago

that is certainly a daunting task in this mess, for sure. i have some poll data i collected early on. we could use a depot for polling results.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Aq2Aa2m1mcYwdExvVFg2OVk1TTNTb1JrRzlJX1Y4d0E

[-] 1 points by RobPenn (116) 2 years ago

I've got the poll. You don't strike me as the type to be bothered by this, but I've downloaded a copy for myself so I can mark it up and try to make sense of it. So if I'm completely wrong, and you're bothered, lemme know and I'll delete it right away.

I like the way you went about it. Completely open-ended questions like that are the biggest pain in the but to make sense of, but also the best way to figure out some one's thoughts.

I'll take a look at it. I'm sure it'll help me understand. Thanks a ton!

[-] 1 points by richardkentgates (3269) from Fort Walton Beach, FL 2 years ago

no prob. hope it helps.

[-] 1 points by wonder (79) 2 years ago

It's more a problem for me than anything. I just think having some definition will ascertain me the knowledge I need. But you imply there is no strict unification.... do you really all want the same thing?

[-] 1 points by richardkentgates (3269) from Fort Walton Beach, FL 2 years ago

no, i'm sure we don't. leadership and/or consolidation would strangle our diversity. IMO

[-] 1 points by wonder (79) 2 years ago

I mean diversity is great. America is incredibly diverse. And at least was incredibly great. Unification isn't the enemy or the opposite of diversity; This group....ANY group will inherently be different, but the agreement of one particular ideal or set of ideals won't take away or "strangle" as you put diversity. But it appears that following the logic you verbalized would make the statement "WE are the 99%" contradictory perhaps...?

[-] 1 points by richardkentgates (3269) from Fort Walton Beach, FL 2 years ago

not really. say you manage to find a set of topics. the fewer topics, the narrower the support. until finally you don't have 99% any longer. some things just don't fit neatly into a box.

[-] 1 points by RobPenn (116) 2 years ago

Don't think of it as topics, then. Think of OWS as one big topic of Greed in politics and in corporate America.

I mean, that's what the whole thing is abstractly about, right?

Everything else, the things that we can actually identify, get a handle on, and talk about, are the specifics. The sub-topics. How does the greed play out? How do the current laws prohibit or foster that? What is the specific answer to each specific example of greed?

I don't mean each and every case. Not nearly that specific, but specific enough that I can actually research it and come to my own conclusion.

Because, yes, Corporate America and Politicians tend to be greedy. I already knew that, so show me something new.

[-] 1 points by richardkentgates (3269) from Fort Walton Beach, FL 2 years ago

i would start by separating human nature from economic and political structure. greed is a human trait and not something any of us even in our collective can overcome. the way that greed is allowed to proliferate in the structures can be identified and cut off. i won't waste time telling you how to get there, but start by stripping every concept down by it's relationship. identify relationships that can be changed.

[-] 1 points by RobPenn (116) 2 years ago

It's impossible to separate human nature from economic and political structure. Economic and political structure are a part of human nature, and have evolved the way that they have because of our evolution as human beings and the distinctions of our evolution from the evolution of the rest of the animal kingdom.

Separating human nature from economic and political structure either involves a very different definition of those three terms than what I posses, or it involves something analogous to separating the human body from one of its organs.

When you say "stripping every concept down by its relationship," what does that mean? The concept's relationship to what?

Really, you're talking to a blank slate here. Or a complete idiot, depending on who you ask. I have only the vaguest clue.

[-] 1 points by wonder (79) 2 years ago

Well there has to be some kind of standard among you. If not, then OWS protester is nothing more than a title that could be given to anyone

[-] 1 points by richardkentgates (3269) from Fort Walton Beach, FL 2 years ago

you got it. that is the entire idea exactly. this is why they made it clear from the beginning that OWS has no leaders and is decentralized.

[-] 1 points by wonder (79) 2 years ago

Then what's the point of OWS if it's nothing more than a title to be had?

[-] 1 points by richardkentgates (3269) from Fort Walton Beach, FL 2 years ago

idk. i don't wear any brand. i just participate.

[-] 1 points by RobPenn (116) 2 years ago

So, if you don't know what the point is of this thing in which you participate, why do you participate in it?

[-] 1 points by richardkentgates (3269) from Fort Walton Beach, FL 2 years ago

i participate in the movement. OWS just happens to be another venue to do so.

[-] 1 points by wonder (79) 2 years ago

So... you're doing it for the sake of doing it?

[-] 1 points by richardkentgates (3269) from Fort Walton Beach, FL 2 years ago

no, i never even implied that. i'm sorry i can't make this fit neatly into a box for you.

[-] 1 points by Frizzle (520) 2 years ago

I'm serious. What is it you want. And i don't mean from people on this forum. But how do you want the world to look like. Do you like the way things are being run now or would you change something if you had the change?

[-] 1 points by wonder (79) 2 years ago

I want the world to be perfect, have everyone agree, get along, and get what they earn. I want perfection. The unfortunate truth is that although in theory, things look amazing, wonderful, whatever word suits you, the law of human nature ( humanity inherently being imperfect) prevents that from happening. So, then logically we should strive for the things that are best. But what/who defines what is best? What is good, moral, perfect etc? These are the machinations of perception created my the human mind, and by those machinations of perception, there blooms a near infinite amount of opinions and ideals and perceptions all different, if only by a little, from eachother. There is no human government that will please everyone. Even when America was in its "prime" there were still those who disagreed. My point is, no matter what comes about people will disagree. Right now, I'm in the game of America the way it is presently, and I'm playing by the rules. i.e. I'm trying to get a good grade on my research project so I can do well in school.

[-] 1 points by Frizzle (520) 2 years ago

Thank you. That's a very clear answer.

I agree that we can never reach perfection. But i think it's important that we try our best to get as close as we can. And it seems clear to me that if we do not change actively now, things are doomed to become a lot worse.

And you are right. There are a lot of different opinions. But some opinions have more grounding in reality then others. To find the best solutions though, we'll have to be willing to listen to one another. Be open to different view points.

But it's important enough to give it our best try. I'm convinced that humanity is worth it.

[-] 0 points by darkhound (66) 2 years ago

No one knows what they want. The only thing I've heard consistently is that they want free college tuition :S

[-] 1 points by wonder (79) 2 years ago

Yeah... I saw an unofficial list of demands but I get the feeling that not all protesters may agree with them

[-] 1 points by RobPenn (116) 2 years ago

I haven't really read it. It says from the beginning that one person typed it up, and put it up for discussion among the group. It's not official, and I don't want to wade through the 2006 comments left there (most of which are tangential) to get to the core of agree, agree with reservations, or disagree.

[-] 1 points by wonder (79) 2 years ago

I have read the list of demands but like you, I don't want to fish in a flood. OWS could use like, a manifesto

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