Forum Post: Welcome to botopia!!!!
Posted 10 years ago on July 29, 2013, 11:24 a.m. EST by shoozTroll
(17632)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
Yes the bots are running wild once again.
Dishonest and manipulative to the core, their operators hide in the shadows, and pretend honesty.........they are not honest.
Don't believe me?
I was looking through the archive and found that innocuous comments by DK were suddenly at -17, and falling. comments made over a year ago.
This is the dishonest work of bot operators.
Pretenders to any revolutionary thought, they've also been voting up some of the most hurtful comments by obvious trolls.
Some will say, it's the work of trashy.
Some will claim it's the work of Ironbolt.
Me?
I don't really know who's it is.
I just know that this is the kind of behavior that has been trying to destroy the integrity of this forum, almost since day one.
What shall we do, to draw them out for the ridicule they so richly deserve?
"80 Percent Of U.S. Adults Face Near-Poverty, Unemployment: Survey"
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/28/poverty-unemployment-rates_n_3666594.html?ir=Business
Trolls don't particularly care for info like that getting out. So, let's just keep doing what we do, the best that we can, and the facts will speak for themselves and make them look like fools for defending the 1%.
Also, the "Occupy Cabal" does nothing to attract people and only belittles the forum, in my opinion.
(Sometimes repetition is necessary to get through to thick heads.)
You will be happy to note that the forum page header has been changed.
Very nice, indeed!
Thought you might like that.{:-])
I realize having only 2,700 points, that this suggestion could seem self-serving,
But I suggest that we wipe out everyone's points every 24...48 hours, or even once a week. Then we all start over again at zero
What do you think shooz? Bop me up if you think this is a good idea, OK?....;-)
~Odin~
OK, but somebody else "bopped" you back down.
Your idea might work, but I tend to think the trolls would go crazy on reset day, as well as disruptors like trashy or whoever is playing him these days.
On the other hand, it's always amazed me the amount of people that hate the concept of voting.
OK, good. I'll work on it. Having any kind of point system or none, trolls will always be around...
~Odin~
Unfortunately, they are still very much abusing this one.
My quote from below.
"To one degree or another, points do matter.
If they didn't?
Some asshole wouldn't be running bots in here to change them."
Yes the point system has some value as it enables people who do not want to post a chance to participate by voting with stinkles and twinkles,
But we have both been here long enough to know points have been manipulated both up and down, and most all of us have been victims and in some cases beneficiaries of this manipulation at one time or another
Having a system where all our points were erased at regular intervals, I believe would be an improvement as fewer..new people would feel intimidated to post here
Already many new people who come here with good intent may feel a bit leery to comment due to not having the understanding that most of us have, as to what has been going on for the past 30 plus years
And the current point system probably adds to that uneasiness, as well as all the vulgar exchanges on here
We have to make new voices feel welcome, and that their opinions count, otherwise this forum will suffer for a lack of new blood
~Odin~
Bottom line.
This entire argument on the point system has been used over and over to detract, deflect, and ignore actual issues!!
I am now thoroughly convinced that that is the only reason anyone abuses it with bots, puppets and cabals and brings it up for discussion, over and over and over.
One person, one vote.
Honesty dictates, that's all you get.
Dishonesty and greed, dictates that you get more.
And isn't greed what we came here to fight?
I'm done with this, as that's my final analysis.
Everything else is bullshit.
You put up the thread...not me!...lol
Delete it if you do not want to hear people's points of view!
You seem more worried about the point system than I am
I was just trying to have a civil conversation with you. That's all
Continue on. You do what you feel is right, and i will do the same
End of discussion!
~Odin~
Not a single word from you about the abuse, nor the abused.
That my friend is exactly what I'm talking about.
Here, have an issue.
http://www.alternet.org/environment/our-biggest-enviro-threat-77-alec-bills-2013-advance-big-oil-big-ag-agenda
Where was your voice when non-partisans were being screwed
As the Scandinavians might say, Don't be 'yerky', shooz
~Odin~
There are no nonpartisans.
As we say here in the US, don't be a fool.
Here's another issue for you.
http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2013/08/02/2404301/36-senators-introduce-bill-prohibiting-virtually-any-new-federal-law-helping-workers/
Another day...another chance for you to continue your war on non-partisans
And now..here's an ...."issue" for you to ponder!...lol
http://www.blackagendareport.com/category/us-politics/democrats-co-opt-occupy-movement
~Odin~
You first, fool.
http://www.mintpressnews.com/stratfor-strategies-how-to-win-the-media-war-against-grassroots-activists/166078/
And if you would be so kind as to show me the evidence of B.A.R.'s veracity, on the following site?
http://occupywallstreet.net/
Oh yes and I almost forgot.
Another actual issue.
http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2013/08/02/2298691/gaslands-1/
I'm am not here to answer to your directives
I post very thoughtful comments and responses...on sensitive issues to people who for the most part are not partisan Democrats, hence are able to think more clearly
You exposed yourself in your base ways, and your nefarious agenda when you tried to link me with Thomas Friedman's economic policies while on a thread where shadz, Renneye and i were having a very thoughtful discussion on a very important "issue" the on-going Israeli/Palestinian crisis
Save your energy on the links as I do not read them
Although it may be too late to broaden your horizons, I suggest that you get some fresh air as I am going to do on my bicycle this afternoon
Look at this in a positive way shooz...it will be invigorating, and when you get back, you will be ready to do some real heavy-duty villifying of anyone who is not a partisan Democrat....*lol
You do make me laugh, so many thanks for that!
~Odin~
You should at least be here to back your words.
Please do so, or stop your damaging assumptions.
All you've done so far is wiggle and squirm.
You also made a personal statement about Friedamn(sic) that you never backed up.
Sources matter too, which I did point out..
On the other hand, I did offer further information on the "issue".
You just attacked me instead of responding.
Words, like motives matter.
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Apparently someone placed Joseph Heller in charge of the forum. Now it seems no one new may comment until you've commented enough to build up a reputation. Makes it difficult though to build up a reputation commenting when you aren't allowed to comment. I've re-read the rules and they haven't been updated to explain this change.
http://occupywallst.org/forum/i-cant-post-comments/
Excluding anyone new from participating without adequately explaining why seems a high price to pay to protect someone's precious point total from trolls.
F O read the updates on that post.
Things can change when attention is brought to them. That doesn't change the fact that it was a foolish unintended Catch 22 brought on by concern over karma points everyone claims are meaningless.
I never said that they were meaningless - I said they were/are being abused by shills/socks/bots. I think it nice to be able to symbolically pat someone on the back for a good comment - and the other way they count is the best comments of the day board.
Very true, I don't know what you've personally said about the points, but then you didn't say very much directly to me about it at all. For all I know my post here and on the other thread helped a little to bring attention to something and get it fixed.
I was too liberal with my use of the word everyone. When I've read comments referring to them in the past the general impression I got was that most people won't admit to them holding any personal value for them. Since I do believe we all like to have our ideas affirmed I suspect it's more a matter of people not wanting to admit they place value on their own total.
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Speaking of chemicals.
http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/17951-the-chemical-industry-divides-an-environmental-coalition-into-disarray
Can you offer some insight on this?
PS, if the issue is fixed, will there then be less trolls?
The chem in chemlady refers my job as a chemistry teacher in a public school. I'm not involved in the industry side of chemistry at all. There is some trickle down inconvenience to regulation, keeping MSDS file on things like vinegar, table salt, or alcohol seems like overkill in my specific situation but it isn't that big of a deal.
There will probably always be trolls. Maybe the temporary snafu over posting comments drove some underground for a while, but they always seem to come back.
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how about this then?
http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/17975-why-alec-fabricated-public-school-failures-and-why-were-not-surprised
Amazing though, that you can't help those you teach understand the industry that they might someday be working in.
To be honest if you're teaching Regent's Chemistry in New York you concentrate on the material. They pay me to teach basic chemistry. I can bring in aspects of global warming, ozone depletion, problems of chemical waste and pollution, acidification of the oceans,eutrophication, acid rain and so on, but these are mere footnotes to the more mundane task of teaching basic chemistry. Proton, neutron, electron, balancing equations, reaction types, acid-base theories. Along the way I hope I'm effective in teaching them how to think and how to learn for themselves.
I don't support charter schools, most of the successes they can claim are due largely to the sample they take. It's easy to show good results when your population is cherry picked. There is an often repeated analogy about public education. It's short so I'll bore you with it if you don't mind.
A baker gave a speech to teachers telling them how if he had their success rate with his blueberry muffins he'd be out of business. Afterwards a teacher asked him what he would do if a farmer sent him a bad batch of blueberries. He of course replied, "I'd send them back". The teacher then quietly told him, we can't send any of our students back, we have to work with all the blueberries.
In the beginning the charter schools draw in the best "blueberries" from homes where parents want their children to learn. You give me a kids from homes where education is important and they will learn with anyone. I'm not surprised that some of their test results were fabricated. Once they are given all the blueberries it's going to come down to a good, dedicated, and experienced teaching staff.
Thanks for your honesty............................:)
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Don't feed the trolls is always a good plan. If the activity doesn't draw a response it simply wastes the troll's time. Down votes don't collapse a comment the way they did in the early days so an idea stands on it's own merits. The number of points is irrelevant as long as your ideas can be expressed.
Sorry, but I don't want racists, bigots, sexist, gun nutters, agists, or any number of other ist's, to garner the same recognition as issue based commentary, or the stuff of people trying to ideate on rebuilding society.
To one degree or another, points do matter.
If they didn't?
Some asshole wouldn't be running bots in here to change them.
( see below comment ) ( I was correct )
I agree they are certainly important to the troll. A thread like this may make him think his down voting is having an effect.
Just stating my opinion in general on it. Personally I do more reading here then commenting and don't vote on comments at all. The point totals seem in general to point to how long someone has been active on here and how much they comment.
That's because you don't vote.
It's always irked me that some folks decry voter participation in the real world, yet refuse to vote here, or think it doesn't make an difference.
It does.
Indeed, it's you own lack of participation in process that gives you the impression that only long time posters can have high point counts.
You must understand the the vote process here, is not a simple yay, nay process. Indeed it's weighted towards the positive.
Union YES!
Watch in horror as yet another Occupy issue, with relevant links is ignored and/or down voted by bots!!
http://www.occupy.com/article/hundreds-march-save-brooklyns-lich-hospital
http://www.labornotes.org/2013/07/caregivers-vs-privatizers-new-york-and-new-jersey-hospital-wars
More assault by austerity and neoliberal privatisation. These are important links to important stories. Thanx & solidarity @ all those involved. I don't normally get involved on internal housekeeping threads like this one but the matters alluded to here are very real.
I too have noticed the clearly coordinated 'stinkle-bots' and some regular posters have been targeted for this kind of behaviour for a while now. Right-wingnuts and students home on holidays and / or employed by any number of 'right wing think tanks' & 'libertarian' organisations as well as the free lance ill wishers are as good a guess as any as culprits. Long term 'disruptors' who wish this forum to die, are of course still very much in the frame. The purpose is to demoralise and disrupt and sow distrust. They will all fail.
We must simply be stoic, show some solidarity, not get too preoccupied with unnecessary squabbling (& mea culpa I'm sure, lol) and carry on regardless but losing that B-S ''Cabal'' crap on the banner would be appreciated because it is well past it's sell by date now and no longer 'funny' if indeed it ever was. + :
''Many people subjected to capitalist downturns sooner or later question the system. Can societies do better than a system that imposes recurring downturns and their associated suffering and immense costs? Capitalism's defenders have rarely engaged such questioning. Instead they offer some comfort and much distraction in response to pressures from downturns' victims. Comfort takes the form of unemployment compensation, food stamps and welfare. Distraction takes the form of public theater: well-dressed politicians inside imposing government buildings urgently debating economic policies as journalists and economists declare those debates to be important.
''Even after capitalist downturns end, the political theater continues. Austerity's champions insist that their policies ended the downturn or would have done so sooner if only they had been adopted. Stimulus advocates make parallel claims. More government spending does at least modestly counter or moderate economic downturns, while austerity usually worsens them. Nonetheless, the old debate persists. Capitalism's downturns keep recurring and with them the need to distract those suffering the attendant pains and costs.''
fiat lux et fiat justitia ...
not surprisingly , you were the only one who responded to this important and telling union post.
As to the cabal?
It does exist, anecdotal evidence points to a posse of the banned, who are likely guided, or led by the forums original nemesis.
As for the economics?
They rode Geo out here a while ago, and he was one of the few who could explain MMT with any veracity.
MMT drives the Austrian, libe(R)tarian crown absolutely nuts.
He's another that I greatly miss.
Re. ''Modern Monetary Theory'', you're absolutely right about its effect on pseudo-Libertarian 'Austrian Economics', which no one gives a flying fck about in Austria or anywhere else in Europe because it is such palpable bunkum and so very ignorant about money creation and in denial about society at large.
'Austrians' in the US seem to have no idea who Carl Menger was and what he said about 'sound money' despite the fact that he was essentially, one of the founding fathers of 'Austrian School'. Americans like Paul Ryan and Rand Paul talk about 'Libertarianism' & ''Austrian Economics'', as though they think they know what they are talking about - whereas they are only really blowing smoke out of their asses & just being the bastard offspring of Ayn 'Psycho' Rand, as they do the bidding of The Corporations,ALEC and the associated Koch suckers. If it's a ''cabal'' you seek - look there ! Finally I'll append and recommend :
''New Monetary Systems for a Sustainable Democracy and "The Great Turning", by Margaret Flowers, MD & Kevin Zeese, JD : http://truth-out.org/news/item/17878-new-monetary-systems-for-a-sustainable-democracy-and-the-great-turning ;
''Collateral Damage : QE3 and the Shadow Banking System'', by Ellen Brown : http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article35633.htm
"How Big Banks Run the World - at Your Expense", by Gar Alperovitz : http://truth-out.org/news/item/9658-how-big-banks-run-the-world-at-your-expense ;
"Banks Weren’t Meant to Be Like This", by Prof. Michael Hudson ; http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article30367.htm ;
"Obama : Money Power's Point Man", by Stephen Lendman : http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article33651.htm ;
http://issuu.com/occupylondon/docs/occupy_little_book_of_ideas/1 ;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltNaDDQZ07k ('Heist') ;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bank_of_North_Dakota ;
http://publicbankinginstitute.org/home.htm &
http://www.occupythesec.org/ .
radix omnium malorum est cupiditas
http://mythfighter.com/
There is no correlation to a "check book".
''Everything in economics devolves to motive'' - from your interesting link. Ergo, I append & recommend :
''The question today is whether cities and counties can afford not to set up their own municipal banks, both to protect their money from confiscation and to take advantage of the very low interest rates and other perks available exclusively to the banking club. A government that owns its own bank can keep the interest and reinvest it locally, resulting in government savings of an estimated 35% to 40% just in interest. Costs can be reduced, and taxes can be cut or services can be increased. Banking and credit can become public utilities, sustaining the local economy rather than mining it for private gain ; and banks can again become safe places to store our money.''
spero meliora ...
Everything in economics is theory. Mostly, a conspiracy theory, and even utter fucking nonsense. Like, the Fed, that supposedly uses the money supply to expand and contract employment. Total fucking nonsense. The population has increased 8-fold since the beginning of the 20th century. Laws of supply and demand? There is only demand. If they really applied, stock growth would be much easier to predict. I would recommend courses in statistics and probability and calculus to everyone. Right now, I would just recommend following what the banks are doing and what our law makers are doing to help them further their lawlessness.
Studying inequality in America reveals some facts that are truly hard to believe. Amidst all the absurdity a few stand out and we're seeing systemic corruption in banking and systemic collusion & ergo do see :
"This Global Financial Fraud and its Gatekeepers'', by Naomi Wolf : http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article31875.htm ;
"Some Outrageous Facts about US Inequality", by Paul Buchheit : http://www.commondreams.org/view/2012/07/02-0 &
''A Little Book of Ideas'' (from Occupy London) : http://issuu.com/occupylondon/docs/occupy_little_book_of_ideas/1 .
fiat lux et fiat justitia ruat caelum ...
Oh, man, that is glum. Unless our government thinks the 1% will support them after the rest of us are starving, I'm at a loss to understand. Most people in the everyday world does not acknowledge what's happening. It's sad. But, I worry not about them. I worry about you and me, who just may give a shit.
No !!! Don't be ''glum'' !! Get clued up, angry, focussed and organised !
Dude, you're gonna dig this : “Four Horsemen'' (of the Apocalypse) :
It's probably not anything you don't know but hey, there's always the outside chance we either learn something or have something we think we know confirmed or we learn that there are new dots to join and clearer connections to make. This doc. film link won't be around long I don't think so I'm strongly recommending it to you. Never stop giving ''a shit'' and happy hunting ;-)
fiat lux et fiat justitia ruat caelum ...
These should be springing up all over.....................:)
They are however different from macroeconomics.
Though indeed, there is NO reason for allowing any city or State in the nation to go bankrupt.
At least not one that is logical.
That IS one of the primary statements of MMT.
http://moslereconomics.com/
http://alittleecon.wordpress.com/2013/07/23/warren-mosler-on-modern-monetary-theory/
All these Friedmanite Chicago boys with their 'Austrian Fixations' but no idea about either Marx or Money Creation are such a bunch of pretentious, naive, doctrinaire, determinist, pseudo-scientists - whose abstractions have lead them up their own backsides and the world into a neoliberal hell hole.
Yet these scumbags and their IMF, World Bank 'Washington Consensus' have been leading the world up a garden path and down the river for so long now that it's well beyond a joke. Thank u for your very interesting links which I recommend to any and all readers interested in MMT & I'll append these too :
"The Biggest Myth Preventing an Economic Recovery - Widespread Economic Myths Destroying the Economy" : http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article31626.htm ;
"How Big Banks Run the World - at Your Expense" : http://truth-out.org/news/item/9658-how-big-banks-run-the-world-at-your-expense ;
''97% Owned & The Theory of Money" : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d3mfkD6Ky5o ;
''New Monetary Systems for a Sustainable Democracy and "The Great Turning", by Margaret Flowers, MD & Kevin Zeese, JD : http://truth-out.org/news/item/17878-new-monetary-systems-for-a-sustainable-democracy-and-the-great-turning &
''A Little Book of Ideas'' (from Occupy London) : http://issuu.com/occupylondon/docs/occupy_little_book_of_ideas/1 .
radix omnium malorum est cupiditas ...
I'm being attacked by some for speaking these days, so there's also this.
http://neweconomicperspectives.org/p/modern-monetary-theory-primer.html.
Prof. Wm. K. Black & Prof. Michael Hudson are part of the http://neweconomicperspectives.org/ & that is a helluva link right there shooz. Thanx though obviously I ain't read it yet but it's been bookmarked for later digestion and cogitation.
You're ''being attacked for speaking'' ?! Lol !! You can take it - as well as dish it out but if the shooz get worn out - go for boots or go for flip-flops but leave the 'DemoCrocs' at home ;-) & just keep laying down the facts as you see 'em !
verum ex absurdo ...
Thanks for the support, but there is an entire club out there now, who won't so much as glance at links I provide.
They fear I will "co-opt" them.
Oh, well.
there's worse fates.
you're right about this shooz
Yep.
You and I don't always get along facts, but no matter.
Bots and puppets are still chickenshit.
Bottom line.
This entire argument on the point system has been used over and over to detract, deflect, and ignore actual issues!!
I am now thoroughly convinced that that is the only reason anyone abuses it with bots, puppets and cabals and brings it up for discussion, over and over and over.
That was always trashy's aim, along with retaliation, distraction, ego, dissuasion, manufactured frustration and a deep seated HATE of Democracy.
Want to talk about the weather.
http://blogs.detroitnews.com/politics/2013/08/06/granholms-chilly-michigan-global-warming-tour/
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Bots are still running.
Will their owner, operator(s) fess up?
Or continue to hide like maggots?
Watch as a link from Occupy gets bot voted down!!!!
It uses the word liberal........and is derogatory to the right wing.
http://occupywallstreet.net/story/liberal-protest-would-shock-right-moral-monday
Bump.
For the afternoon folks.
What's wrong with the picture below ?!!! How about freezing the twinkle / stinkle voting for a while ?!! How about someone get a grip around here ?! How about jart or one of the coders pay a li'l attention around here despite how busy they are or what instant results they were hoping for as they were not minded that 'Revolutions Take Time' ? Oh, and how about losing that ''Cabal'' B-S ? Just sayin' ... + :
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article35692.htm - a hard read but with embedded lessons for those with the wit, time, heart and ears to hear, listen, meditate and reflect & :
''Time To Decide - Concentrated Privatized Wealth Or Shared Prosperity And Economic Democracy'', by Kevin Zeese, JD & Margaret Flowers, MD : http://www.nationofchange.org/time-decide-concentrated-privatized-wealth-or-shared-prosperity-and-economic-democracy-1374758622 .
e tenebris, lux ...
Hey shadz........................:)
My daughter recently returned home from China, as a surprise. We were not expecting her for another couple of weeks.
As she was putting this together, she's been IMing and calling and texting, to keep us off her plan.
I have been busy............................:) Happily.
But I didn't forget.
I respond here to the questions of the veracity of the duopoly paradigm and although I understand it's appearance, it can never describe all that is actually happening.
It just doesn't fit in all the countries affected around the world, nor in individual States in the US.
Today the World suffers from an infection of Randian Libertarianism.
It fits the paradigm. To a T.
From privatization to austerity to ever larger mergers and acquisitions to isolation of the individual.
It fits like a glove.
The concept of duopoly itself, is easily manipulated. Most easily by the right wing.
http://occupywallst.org/forum/duopoly-a-political-condition-in-which-power-is-co/
LBGT....a wedge issue???
Really? It isn't if you happen to be one, or your child is being bullied about it.
Perhaps once it was so and it fit, but that time is long gone.
Things have changed.
Wallstreet and it's brethren are more powerful than any government anywhere.
It's a monopoly.
Thx for the notice - it is rather sad to see an individual (?) spend such dedicated time to looking up old comments of mine and then take the time to cycle through like 17 of their socks to vote down the comments as they find them. I am not the only one this sad-sack does this to either - SO - How Sad Is That Individual (?) ? Exactly how much time does it take to remove in the neighborhood of 10,000 pts. ? To what purpose? It does not hurt me in anyway.
It destroys the integrity of the forum, as did trashy's original sockpuppet/bot, invasion.
Please note too, some of the profoundly anti-occupy comments on the top comments board.
Destroying this forum was the intent of both trashy and ironbolt, but we can never be sure if the current attack is them or some other inheritor of their poisoned ideology. Whatever that might be, it isn't about Occupy.
I know this kind of thing doesn't actually hurt you, but it's just plain wrong, and even our detractors should have noticed and been in an uproar by now.
Unless of course, they are part of the problem.
Shoes, the current top comments appear to be nomoney handing YOU your ass. If that is "anti occupy" you are a bigger jerk than I had previously thought!
All the trolls agree, I'm sure.
But in the end, he admitted in a round about way, that he's been baiting me the whole time.
Glad I could bum you out...........:)
"But in the end, he admitted in a round about way, that he's been baiting me the whole time."
Bullshit. Point out where I said that.
http://samuel-warde.com/2013/06/stand-your-ground-black-woman-fires-sho-gets-20-years-white-man-kills-and-goes-free/
http://colorlines.com/archives/2012/05/florida_black_woman_gets_20_years_after_failed_stand_your_ground_defense.html
Given a dose of your own medicine.
How long have you been calling me a right wing troll?
I'm farther to the left than you ever though about being, you dont even have a clue as what left is by any measure of historical society.
Just because you and some others have perverted it into some machine endorsing bullshit doesnt mean the rest of us have to.
I've called you a lot of stuff. strictly in response to your own prolific name calling
But I've never called you a "right wing troll".
So I can't answer your question.
Lefter than what?? When did that become a deciding factor, and by what measurement? And how did you accurately measure mine?? whatever it is?
That's just weird.
Um, you've even espoused quite a bit of bullshit yourself.
On that count, I suppose banning would be the deciding factor,
Trashy would surely own that record, but would you state for the record, how many times you've been banned?
I have 0.
You do have zero. So does the guy who goes around asking for blood. You actually have the most points out of anyone, and are probably one of the more out of touch posters due to inexperience.
Your so far to the right in your lust for power and decision makers it would make Reagan proud.
How ironic.
Even more ironic?
You didn't answer the question......
You attempted insult instead.
In fact........you didn't address even one of them, and it was you, who once again made accusations.
So, c'mon.
How many times have you been banned? Or have you lost count?
I didn't read about the last collateral drone deaths
ITs not up to you to be the grand inquisitor, regardless if the head hunter is your friend or not. Its not up to you to ask anyone of anything. Thats all you do is troll around all day accusing people and posting hate messages.
Check out your lists of posts.
Not a single positive one. Not one. Thats very telling.
http://occupywallst.org/forum/search/?q=user%3Ashooz
You've been accusing me of being a right winger and others. Its total bullshit. You dont have a clue how conservative you actually are.
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Great comment. You get voting power now too. Wonderful.
OOOO - you musta hit a nerve - you were stinkled for that.
I think it would shut down the subversive bot users if every account had to earn 1000 points prior to being able to vote or make a post.
Earn 1000 points by making good comments/contributions.
That would put a serious crimp into sock/bot user/abusers - Hey?
" had to earn 1000 points prior to being able to vote "
Sound like its heading right down the path that the entire system is on.
The forum IS a mess, thats for sure. Try running a GA. Try holding space while everyone in power is against you, everyone in the media is against you, and everyone else doesnt show up to help.
Naw the corp(se)oRATists want to do away with voting - the Corp(se)oRATions want a new monarchy where they are the royalty. Unfortunately they have almost cemented that position.
Points to vote sounds like land to vote. Or skin color to vote.
They are exporting their unique brand of "democracy" for a reason.
Corporate backed parties that limit others into the scene, and hence can then look at the masses and honestly say "Hey, you voted for us".
Whats the big deal with a forum point total requirement to vote? You don't like the idea that you will need to be a positive contributor to the forum? Or is it that you will have to bring socks out of hiding to get them qualified? Because seriously - you will still be able to make comments - that's the main thing isn't it? Being heard?
Then why have the votes at all?
Because it is a nice way to give someone a pat on the back for making a good comment and it is still a legitimate way to say a comment stinks - that is as long as shills can't use bots & socks to fuck up the process.
Then only those who agree with who has the original voting population will ever have a chance to give someone a pat.
Its the same exact path we are fighting against- others choosing who has a say.
Honestly, in the grand scheme of things comments on this forum arent going to make or break anything or anyone.
But its that mindset that needs to be confronted at every angle- that others get a say, and others dont, based off of what a select few have to say to begin with.
Ummmm sorry - BUT - NOT If legitimate comments are being made on topic to the posts - then those that agree with that comment can vote for it or ignore it - a comment made is worth a point. You feel a comment was improperly downvoted - copy the permalink and send it in to the site for review. But this reigns in a lot of the bot sock shill BULLSHIT.
It is worth a try to see how it goes.
Who determines "legitimate"?
Thats the key. "Who" determines "what" is good vs bad.
The establishment does all sorts of stuff to predetermine whats "good" and whats "bad" .
Who is affected by bots? Last I knew the biggest problem here was people like Odin and PK getting the boot, amount others, and an overwhelming feeling across the country there is too much ontrol and censorship already.
Odin got booted for BS attacks on supporters that wanted to do support actions he didn't agree with. He was not censored - he got his say he was told where he was wrong and decided that he did not care and kept up with his attacks - this has been the same for many who have been booted - they didn't contribut to supporting OWS/Occupy they decided that it was their way or the Highway. GUESS WHAT? The site decided that they were wrong and as they were not listening to reason they were booted. BTW Odin is back and doing his own thing - he didn't go to the site to get reinstated - he just opened another account. Guess what ? He is still here making comments and posts and is voting. But he has not to "my" knowledge been attacking other supporters again. When it comes down to who has the final say???? THE SITE DOES.
Whats next, you going to tell me "you want the terrorists to win?"
Things are so out of control the only way to fix it is to create a privilege class?
Ultimately people can propose whatever they like. Thats the best thing about occupy, the wide variety of thinking from anarchists, communists, socialists, yes- libertarians, and everyone else.
Boy you started at a loss and you just keep digging that hole of yours with more inanities.
If any of those you mentioned are against OWS/Occupy - then no they would not be welcome here. But they are perfectly free to start a forum of their own.
"But apparently you R OK with some schmucks coming here and make no comments but cast thousands and thousands of downvotes. BTW on the street? that is not acceptable at this time either - those generally get arrested. Or for those self same schmucks to post crap to disrupt."
I'm not ok with it. But Im not going to start limiting other peoples say over it in the name of "protection".
Again, this is totally inline with everything else going on in the bigger scheme of things right now.
Stinkle - U would just let the schmucks in and roll over and play dead for them - Hey? As that "IS" what you are stating.
Ok, fair enough. But someone such myself would not have a say in what is a "good" comment or a "bad" one, and seems how we are all of a sudden into giving certain people privlages, whats the requirements?
Would actually sleeping on a sidewalk count? Would someone whom actually helped out with a variety of tasks count? Or would be up to an anonymous group to decide who was good comments/bad comments for the chance to "get into the club"?
Getting into the club is something I thought we all agreed SUCKED.
Sure you would - you are already half way there to the proposed point total to allow you to vote - in the meantime you are being heard with every comment you make. In support of an idea or with expressing disagreement - but never for being an outright asshole would be the thing.
I dont want more of say as to what is a good occupy comment more than anyone else.
That goes directly against everything.
But apparently you R OK with some schmucks coming here and make no comments but cast thousands and thousands of downvotes. BTW on the street? that is not acceptable at this time either - those generally get arrested. Or for those self same schmucks to post crap to disrupt.
"are against OWS/Occupy"
And I'll repeat- the ones to determine this will be the ones to determine who gets the right to vote.
Thats not right.
The one with the final say is the one who set up the site. Deal with it. Don't like it? Go somewhere else and see how well your BS goes over.
I'm fine with it as it is, the argument is if it needs to be changed or not.
And " I " think it would be a major improvement for squashing bot sock activity.
So only the one who set it up gets voting power? Because I dont think thats what you are proposing, was it?
What do you think about removing the points all together? Would it make it impossible to manipulate things?
I would rather do that, its even and horizontal, than make a special class that can only be achieved by getting good graces from those already in the special class.
Stop trying to be an ass = " So only the one who set it up gets voting power? "
What I said was that the site owner has the final say. You got a problem with that - start your own site and let everyone do whatever they want - and then you can preach about how your site is so much better than this one. GO FOR IT.
That would frustrate the fly by night trolls that come in here and say the same idiotic insults they've been posting since the site went live, but I think the more serious infiltrators would have the patience to stick it out.
Trashy had well over 1,000pts by the time his bots were discovered for what they were.
Manipulative and destructive.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023359801
Actually watch that teabagger, internet disruption training video, and think about the millions the Koch's have spent, and wily ways of folks like Rove.
Do you think they wouldn't hit this place?
How about just one, that mostly sits in the background, using marketing skills to disrupt?
I think, shooz, that the most dangerous trolls, are the silent trolls. The trolls we have no idea that they are here. They vote heavily, they use bots, they're supported by groups like ALEC, the NRA, the Republican Party etc.
The trolls who make comments are easy to bat back, and sometimes even provide us with a way to make our arguments, but the ones that log in just to vote mess with how the forum looks and how comments appear and that is a bigger problem, in my opinion, because we can't set them straight and leave our record next to theirs.
I think that DK's point idea would help with those who never post.
I don't care if a fellow poster doesn't like what I say and votes me down.
I like when I get voted up.
Indeed, I encourage everyone to vote prolifically.
That's honest. That's the process. that's OK.
Bots and puppets on the other hand, are simply dishonest, and I've argued with "trashy" over that numerous times.
One of the tellers for me, was anyone talking about the non existent "twinkle team".
It felt like it was just an excuse for their reprehensible behaviors.
I agree that bots have absolutely no place here. And, I think it's not a bad idea to require people to post before they can vote, but we'd have to think about how to do that. I don't think it should be based on points but perhaps, merely the number of posts/comments, without regard to how many points someone has garnered.
In addition, there has never been a "twinkle team." That is a fabrication of Thrasymaque and a continued myth.
1,000 might be a bit much, but keep in mind that chat bots could just make comments.
I was thinking of lower number of positive votes, as opposed to mere posts.
Something that would demonstrate some level of solidarity.
Keep in mind that every post is still one vote.
I'm thinking that as long as someone is posting they should be able to vote regardless of their points, but I'm not sure, lol. Certainly lowering the required points would be good.
I'm looking at DKA down below with -8. Now, I want to think a bot did that and that some idiot does not have 8 monikers that he logs in with. But, bot or idiot, if they have to be posting, that is quite a lot of work, right? So, maybe they have to be posting regularly to be able to vote. So, if someone doesn't post frequently enough they don't get to vote. I'm not sure, but something like that, maybe.
I suppose, ultimately it's a matter of programing to what the sites software is capable of. I really have no idea.
I just know that when I was perusing the archive the other day, I was aghast to find DKs comments from a year ago at -17, whole threads like that.
That's just wrong.
And that's the work of bots.
So I brought it to the forums attention, if only to see who would respond and in what way.
Something needs to be done.
I know nothing about programming either, lol, but there has got to be a way to keep bots and people who vote but who don't post, off. How about people who make say 50 points worth of votes without making a single comment? Keep them off. Find some kind of threshold so that you have to earn you right to vote by posting. Maybe, if you haven't posted in 30 days, you can't vote. Something! We need something. But, it cannot be a popularity contest. And, surely, DKA's real points would be like 40,000. LOL.
If so - You should have like 136,000 not 13,000. You have always made good comments that many people agreed with ( voted for ).
LOL. Nah, but thanks for the compliment.
But it is true O modest one.
How did they get points without a comment??
Perhaps they were sleeper puppets that commented in the early days, and are now being resurrected?
Hopefully, something can be done as it's still very much happening, and there is nothing that has damaged the sites integrity more than bot/puppet use.
It sickens me at this point to see any post that claims it doesn't matter.
It's like saying it doesn't matter if you lie through your teeth.
Oh I meant that they vote 50 points (with regard to other people's comments) without making a single comment. So, therefore, they affect points without earning any themselves through posting, because these schmucks, like you say, don't post.
I definitely think the right to vote has to be earned more than by just signing in with a moniker. This is a confusing matter with lots of possibilities so sorry if I was confusing!
Weaken them, by voting more, not less.
I, personally, spend a lot of time voting and encourage everyone to do so with their one, single, legitimate moniker that they use to post with.
Exactly - the silent shills/bots/socks.
U mean RustyButtHeadBrucie?
Difference would be no presto change-o new sock-o to fuck around-o on the immediate response to their getting booted. It would not be a twenty second recreation anymore - they would have to go through the process of getting 1000 pts every single time. No points = No BS Posts.
A step in the proper direction - Hey?
Oh, yes! I was just pointing out that diligence will still be needed.
Keep in mind too, that bots these days can be pretty sophisticated.
Chat bots have been around since at least the '00's. It wouldn't be that hard to program one to make generic supportive comments that would tend to get up votes.
Still it would not be an instant presto change-o anymore - then improvements would have to be considered going forward from there. I thought it was pretty funny when the site took trashy-can's ability to PM away.
Yeah well, there's no shortage of IM software out there too.
That's not a strong impediment to someone planning on being banned.
How do you like the racist comment that got to #2?
If it's not a bot, there's some real Aholes around here, that lurk around.
I saw a comment the other day, from a guy who said he alternated between here and stormfront. I thought he was bullshitting, but now I'm not so sure.
I wish I could remember the convo, but the other guy sure didn't call him out on that.
This comment?: http://occupywallst.org/forum/occupy-detroit/#comment-990468
Anyway with the shills having to get qualified - there should be a lot less crap comments getting on the best comment board. Don't ya think?
You dont think that goes directly against what we believe in - horizontal democracy, things on an even field in turns of voices? No one person gets more of a say than others.
How so? Everyone still gets to comment. Besides - shills aren't anyone - they are attempts at disruption. So if a supporter of OWS/Occupy comes here and makes good contributions they will get the ability to make posts and make votes. Shills will have to work harder to be the disruptive shits that they intend to be.
That may be, but the problem with that logic isnt this website, its that logic to begin with.
The fact that the two people with the highest point totals are deciding that people should have a certain level of points to be able to decide whats a good comment or bad is equally disturbing.
You dont want to go down that road. Even if it makes your life as a moderator more difficult. Thats a road we started down a long time ago and this is where it has brought us.
If I had the power to make this change - do you think I would be asking about it? Do you think I would suggest it as a good idea to try? Rather then just going ahead and doing it? Some shit ( s ? ) is using bots and socks to make major attacks on participants here. No not just on me ( -10,000 pts ).
How much time or how many socks or bots does it take to remove that number of points? Now add that into all of the others who are or who have been attacked in the same way.
BTW?
BULLSHIT
I only have one vote to use on any given comment - plus or minus. If this can put a crimp in bot and shill activity I say it is a good thing. This is an OWS/Occupy support site - NOT - shill central.
"And I think that you must have brown eyes as you are full of shit."
I don't.
And Im not full of shit, its my opinion. Does that mean I'm now the enemy?
it means you are full of shit. IMO.
"You don't mean to say that you are being made to pay to be here are you?"
No, I mean you are advocating the same type of thinking that turned our democracy into a bought out privileged piece of garbage and dont realize it.
Nope sorry - you have the freedom to go where ever you want to say your piece - even here - until one proves that they are being a schmuck - then the site reserves the right to boot the schmuck out the door. At which point said schmuck can go somewhere else to see if it will be accepted.
We are talking about the ability to vote on whats a "good" occupy comment on whats a "bad" occupy comment.
If you want to create a "board" that decides, or some other way of segregating whats popular or not, thats your decision.
I personally think it goes against the very thing this thing was founded upon and the leading cause of all the repression these days.
And I think that you must have brown eyes as you are full of shit.
"Nope sorry - you have the freedom to go where ever you want to say your piece - even here - until one proves that they are being a schmuck - then the site reserves the right to boot the schmuck out the door. At which point said schmuck can go somewhere else to see if it will be accepted."
I'm talking about acceptance into a voting pool.
Consider it as getting a drivers license - does that make you feel better? In the meantime you get to practice driving ( making comments ).
"Thats a road we started down a long time ago and this is where it has brought us. BULLSHIT"
Im not talking about "we" as this forum, I'm talking about we as a country, as a group of humans interacting in a society with one another.
Theres a reason most occupys didnt want to create forums, they get overrun. That being said, if you are going to provide the platform then you have to make it free, otherwise its no different than the stuff we are fighting where certain people get to make decisions and we get stuck hoping maybe someday we get a shot.
This is not the street this is a support site - those who are not supportive are not welcome plain and simple - but they ARE FREE to start their own site - that being somewhere else. FREEDOM REIGNS.
You don't mean to say that you are being made to pay to be here are you?
Lets not start comparing voting rights to drivers licenses, that might not be the best analogy.
Why not? You have to be a certain age for both. But I am not saying that a citizen should have to pass any sort of restriction to vote ( for real ). But we are not talking street - we are here talking about a forum site that was set up for the express purpose of supporting OWS/Occupy. I suppose with your freedom everywhere kick - that you are ok with some kids going to the YMCA and draining the pool because they are claiming the right to roller blade there - irregardless that the pool was set up for and already being used for swimming.
Tell me it's not some form of manipulation.
Those who are not protesting it here, are certainly endorsing it, maybe even a part of it.
It's perhaps even more damaging then the early days of trashy.
The statement as it stands ( as long as it has not been edited ) - " There should be plenty of empty ruins in Detroit to occupy. Go for it. " - seems to be just a sad statement of the economic ruin that has been subjected on the area.
"80 Percent Of U.S. Adults Face Near-Poverty, Unemployment: Survey"
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/28/poverty-unemployment-rates_n_3666594.html?ir=Business
Trolls don't particularly care for info like that getting out. So, let's just keep doing what we do, the best that we can, and the facts will speak for themselves and make them look like fools for defending the 1%.
Also, the "Occupy Cabal" does nothing to attract people and only belittles the forum, in my opinion.
I'm sorry BW, your cogent post was downvoted for it's support of issues.
Try not to mention Walker, Snyder, Scott, or any number of other Koch whores, no matter the damage they are doing.
The bots/puppets have been paying particular attention to this thread too.
0 to any negative, is pretty much who you can trust around here, in the context of this thread.
http://www.alternet.org/economy/detroit-bailout-0
Our Em, instead of staying in an already paid for mayors mansion, is staying in a penthouse suite of the most expensive Hotel in town.
On the tax payer dime, compliments of Snyder.
"80 Percent Of U.S. Adults Face Near-Poverty, Unemployment: Survey"
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/28/poverty-unemployment-rates_n_3666594.html?ir=Business
This is a very stunning statistic that upsets the people who want it to stay that way, because, you see, they benefit by keeping the masses down.
So, ALEC, the Kochs, Snyder, Walker, Scott they can all start worrying because the party is over. The American people are becoming more and more aware everyday.
I feel this is why they are passing a plethora of damaging bills in the States, as fast as they can.
I just hope that those who follow them can unravel them, before they any more damage, because I can't any of them getting reelected..
As to your article?
It's not so much the globalization as it is this.
"the widening gap between rich and poor, and the loss of good-paying manufacturing jobs as reasons for the trend."
Union YES!
I would agree with you, using globalization as the cause is kind of an excuse. The real problem is out and out greed!
As an auto worker, it took me some time to realize this simple truth.
I don't begrudge a job to a worker elsewhere in the world. We all live on the planet and deserve a living.
I begrudge the corporations that refuse to pay them well for their labor.
I agree with you wholeheartedly. Maybe it's time for a global minimum wage.
http://gawker.com/we-need-an-international-minimum-wage-509268324
I would offer the alternative of 100% compliance with collective bargaining.
It would decentralize the process and move towards full planet unionization.....
It's not always about wages, so much as it is health and safety and other elements of working conditions and even retirement..
Things a centralized waging system, may or may not, be able to improve upon.
The balance of power between workers and employers is completely lopsided. That is why collective bargaining was instituted in the first place. Without joining together, employees are raped and pillaged.
That's what I'm saying, and if you don't think a centralized wage picker wouldn't pit one set of workers against another, in an effort to keep those wages as low as possible?
I believe they would.
Bargaining units would form where they are needed, according to need..
The bugaboo, as I see it, is that some form of central organization would be need for training, oversight, enforcement, legal, translation and of course, calling strikes. Which could be done anywhere in the World, that would make them the most effective.
No more isolation. What is done to one worker, really is done to all workers.
How to assure that it is not co-opted?
that's the bugaboo.
"What is done to one worker, really is done to all workers." That is the big thing that people don't get. For example, exempt or salaried employees don't realize that the non-exempt hourly wages at the bottom actually drive their wages, so when the lower wages go down, so goes theirs.
Perhaps the broader the labor movement could become, the less likely it could be co-opted.
The wobblies tried it a long time ago.
It should be tried again. They have been separating unions for decades.
Here in the US.
First they separated them.
Then they cut their funding.
Repeal "right to work" wherever it exists.
All good points. Solidarity with all workers, everywhere!
I used to wonder who and why. Now.............I am just going to laugh my ass off at these dimwits. They aren't the fucking brightest. They are repetitive ABC chicken shit bitches.
I see you, you whiny little bitch.