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Forum Post: Two years in and more guns than ever, will the GOP fix this?

Posted 2 years ago on Dec. 14, 2014, 8:48 a.m. EST by factsrfun (8851) from Phoenix, AZ
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

Take a look at this piece and these pictures and tell yourself it is more important that OWS not be co-opted than for us to rally around and elect people to change this.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/america-continues-protect-gun-nuts-sandy-hook-article-1.2044666

You wonder why I implore those on the site to quit dreaming of someday and do all they can now?

Well two years after Sandy Hook the party that blocked any effort to change the law have had their biggest win in decades in large part because so many who support this movement didn't vote at all.

86 Comments

86 Comments


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[-] 6 points by Shule (2638) 2 years ago

Stop putting up warmongering corporate quislings like Hillary Clinton, and then maybe the Democrats will win something.

[-] -1 points by factsrfun (8851) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

It is my understanding that there is a primary process that anyone can vote in....whoever wins in that process will be American's best chance of keeping a Republican from the White House that's where that reality thing comes into play, the question becomes do you live in the real world or one of your own creation?

[-] 7 points by Shule (2638) 2 years ago

Repulicans are not the only threat to this nation. Look at what the Democrats are doing now. What we really need is an overhaul in both parties.

The warning has been made. Its up to you. If you want a Democrat to win, get somebody that is electable. That means somebody other than Hillary and bandits.

[-] -2 points by factsrfun (8851) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

That really is the problem that OWS has ran into and why we hear so little about it, it is filled with people who expect others to do the work.

You could get involved and help to change things instead of working to keep the 1% in power as shadz and flip do, you don't have to sit on your hands and wait for others to do the work.

But congrats on electing a bunch of GOP!

you sure got that down, now if only you would remove your head from your ass and get involved in creating change.

The only overall the GOP needs to to be hauled to the graveyard, that is half the problem people who still think we need a party dedicated to keeping rich people rich.

I think you "reformers" are lost there is no reforming this broken system it must be brought down, I outline a plan by which that can be done one leg at a time.

[-] 6 points by Shule (2638) 2 years ago

What makes you think I'm sitting on my hands?

I see so many other folks on this blog "sitting on their hands" ready and willing to accept "lesser evil" when the primaries have not even taken place yet. What these folks could be doing instead is work to make sure that "lesser evil" does not even win the Democratic nomination. Then I could say we have a game plan. Of course I recognize the only real solution lies quite outside the two party, or even the U.S. election system altogether as it is all rigged. But I also do see that by creating havoc in the system by doing our best to make sure that those people the 1% want to see elected don't get elected would certainly help.

[-] -1 points by factsrfun (8851) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

Your "lesser evil" bullshit puts the GOP into power so enjoy the government you love and support and put into office you idiot.

I posted a year ago about running against Schumer and replacing one of the most Wall Street friendly Senator but none of you so called radicals, which you are really just a bunch of political hacks that don't give a damn about the country.

Your the election is rigged shit that discourages people from seizing the day and creating change now.

You help elect the footmen of the 1% the GOP with every post you make; assisting the GOP to win is all you do.

[-] 2 points by Shule (2638) 2 years ago

All you're doing with these posts you make is assist the 1% in helping get their darling elected. Are you working for the 1%?

[-] 1 points by factsrfun (8851) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

You just help the GOP win it's biggest margin in over 80 years and you ask me that?

You doing nothing but fight to elect the GOP are you really so stupid you don't know that?

[-] 7 points by Shule (2638) 2 years ago

WARNING: Beware OWS, this site has been taken over by Democratic hacks, who want Democrats to win at no matter what the cost; even if the "Democrat" candidates are Wall Street quislings.

Did you know that the combined asset wealth of Bill and Hillary Clinton is something over $30 milliion dollars, and that they earned over $108 million in less than eight years (where did they blow the money?) Why, the Clinton gang are 1%ers!

[-] -3 points by StillModestCapitalist (343) 2 years ago

Your pathetic attempt at reverse psychology won't work on me Shule. As promised, I will continue to post links to this page explaining your true motives.

Mark mark mark!

http://occupywallst.org/forum/ows-readers-beware-our-site-has-been-taken-over-by/

Update: In response to your update that you were hoping I wouldn't notice:

Damn right the Clintons are rich. Damn right they are wealth concentrating pigs. So is Sarah Palin, Sean Hannity, Rush Limbaugh, Marc Ryan, and of course, MITT ROMNEY who got richer by scrapping jobs, pensions, and benefits.

Given the choice between Clinton and Romney, I'll vote for Clinton. She is the lesser evil.

[-] 1 points by Shule (2638) 2 years ago

That is the whole thing. If you vote for somebody else other than Clinton in the primaries, then come November 2016 you won't have to make that ugly choice of having to decide between Romney or some other Republican sleeze, and that Clinton sleeze.

Why do we not get together and make sure a decent Democrat wins the primaries??? That way we both win!! I will certainly vote for a decent Democrat. Peace and Love my friend.

[-] 1 points by StillModestCapitalist (343) 2 years ago

Clinton isn't my first choice but she will almost certainly get the nomination. When the time comes, I will hold my nose and vote for her UNLESS a fiscally liberal or moderate Republican or Independent comes along in which case I may vote for them depending on their voting record.

[-] 3 points by Shule (2638) 2 years ago

So who is your first choice?

[-] 0 points by StillModestCapitalist (343) 2 years ago

In my opinion, Elizabeth Warren would take office with better intentions. Unfortunately, she has no chance of being nominated. My guess is that it will come down to Clinton and Romney.

By the way, I see the conservative posers (at least four of them posing as disgruntled liberals) have been marking down my comments in order to reduce my overall user rating. That's fine. From now on, I will post the following link with each comment.

http://occupywallst.org/forum/ows-readers-beware-our-site-has-been-taken-over-by/

[-] 3 points by Shule (2638) 2 years ago

Why do you not start promoting Elizabeth Warren? Then maybe she WILL win.

[-] -2 points by StillModestCapitalist (343) 2 years ago

She will not. You know it damn well. Otherwise, you wouldn't be pushing her over Clinton.

http://occupywallst.org/forum/ows-readers-beware-our-site-has-been-taken-over-by/

[-] 4 points by Shule (2638) 2 years ago

So just how much are the Clinton's paying you?

[-] 4 points by SerfingUSA (451) 2 years ago

He's definitely on someone's payroll. Over the holidays he wasn't working for the lesser evil here. I guess the Clinton's give him a vacation.

It's very strange he vehemently despises Russell Brand for being too rich. Yet he campaigns for far richer politicians. The same politicians who legalized corruption as accomplices in .01% proxy legislation.

[-] -2 points by StillModestCapitalist (343) 2 years ago

I vehemently despise all deca-millionaires. No excuses. No exceptions. But my purpose in this regard is to prevent the greater evil from taking office. To help slow down the systematic concentration of wealth by campaigning against fiscal conservatives.

You know it damn well slick and I'm STILL not going anywhere. No matter how much you complain, how many of my comments you mark down or how low my user rating goes, I'll be right here.

Deal with it.

[-] -2 points by StillModestCapitalist (343) 2 years ago

Clintons paying me? Alright hot shot. You asked for it. AGAIN.

Http://OprahAngelinaBradBonoBill.Blogspot.com

When you've cleaned yourself up, I'll take my apology.

[-] 5 points by turbocharger (1756) 2 years ago

Just imagine, the people you just voted for do this sort of thing in communities overseas on a daily basis. And yet there you are, telling everyone else that they need to be able to, that maintaining that power is the most important aspect of our political lives.

The gov is doing things like this weekly around the globe, and from the looks of things, planning on it sometime here soon.

So please, if you want to live in a peaceful society, and de-arming the people is your #1 route to getting there, then start with the ones who create and distribute, kill, and manipulate at the root.

Then worry about your neighbors.

PS- which law would have prevented that nut from taking his mom's guns?

[-] 0 points by factsrfun (8851) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

so you think you boys, the GOP will enact gun control? you helped to put the GOP in power what they do is on your head

[-] 2 points by turbocharger (1756) 2 years ago

I think they both run more guns than you can get your tiny brain around.

[-] -1 points by factsrfun (8851) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

But you prefer the guns ran by the GOP it is the GOP you help get elected, and if you are so blind that you don't know the GOP fight gun control, you are stupid as shit.

or you are a political hack bent on co-opting OWS so which is it? are you stupid as shit or a politcal hack?

[+] -4 points by StillModestCapitalist (343) 2 years ago

Gee what a shock. Another conservative comment posted by a conservative posing as a disgruntled liberal and immediately marked up by one or more conservatives posing as disgruntled liberals.

What law would have prevented that nut from taking mom's guns? Well to begin with, it's a half-wit question because it wasn't just any gun that gave Lanza the ability to take over two dozen lives without breaking a sweat. It was a God damn assault weapon designed specifically for combat. A God damn assault weapon equipped with high capacity 'quick change' clips.

I'll tell you what law you fucking moron. This law:

Regarding the Assault Weapon Ban in effect from 1994-2004. It's been reported to have a slight effect on overall gun crime rates but for the most part, it was designed specifically to effect the trend of mass shootings. In particular, those with higher body counts. This, it did very well. By reducing overall access to assault weapons and higher capacity magazines, psychos were made less likely to acquire them by any means. As a result, the trend of higher body count mass shootings was reversed almost immediately. In fact, that ten year time frame is the only ten year span within the last several decades in which no shooter, acting alone, was able to make the current 'Top Ten' list. Not a single one from 1994-2004.

Unfortunately, that federal ban on assault weapons and high capacity magazines expired in 2004. Since then, we have seen the sharpest rise ever in higher body count mass shootings.

Now for a look at the dates of the top ten most deadly mass shootings in US history, the weapons used, the body counts, and the relevance of the now expired AWB.

10. 1949. (Camden NJ, One handgun.)13 dead. Pre-ban.

5. 1966. (University of Texas, Multiple firearms.) 16 dead. Pre-ban.

4. 1984. (San Ysidro McDonald's, One UZI ASSAULT RIFLE with HIGH CAPACITY MAGAZINES, one handgun with HIGH CAPACITY MAGAZINE, and one shotgun.) 21 dead. Pre-ban.

6. 1986. (Edmond PO, Three handguns. One of which (the Ruger) may have been of high capacity. No confirmation.) 14 dead. Pre-ban.

3. 1991. (Luby's Cafeteria, Two handguns. One or both with HIGH CAPACITY MAGAZINES.) 23 dead. Pre-ban.

Notice that a growing trend was evident as of 1991. Assault weapons and/or high capacity magazines were being used more often to achieve higher body counts.

7. 1999. (Columbine, Two attackers. Multiple firearms and use of explosives.) 13 dead. Mid-ban.

The assault on Columbine High School was the only 'mass shooting' to make the current top ten list mid-ban. Unlike the others, that incident involved two attackers working together with explosives and extensive preparation. The firearms used were not effected by the AWB.

The ban on 'assault weapons' and high capacity magazines expired in 2004.

8. 2009. (Immigration Services, Two hand guns with PREVIOUSLY BANNED HIGH CAPACITY MAGAZINES.) 13 dead. Post-ban.

9. 2009. (Fort Hood, Two handguns. One or both with PREVIOUSLY BANNED HIGH CAPACITY MAGAZINES.) 13 dead. Post-ban.

1. 2007. (Virginia Tech, Two separate attacks spaced roughly two hours apart. Two hand guns, 19 magazines, some of which were of PREVIOUSLY BANNED HIGH CAPACITY.) 32 dead. Post-ban.

2. 2012. (Sandy Hook, ONE PREVIOUSLY BANNED AR-15 ASSAULT RIFLE with PREVIOUSLY BANNED HIGH CAPACITY MAGAZINES plus two handguns. EVERY SINGLE VICTIM WAS SHOT AT LEAST ONCE WITH THE PREVIOUSLY BANNED AR-15 ASSAULT RIFLE EQUIPPED WITH PREVIOUSLY BANNED '30 ROUND' MAGAZINES. EVERY SINGLE VICTIM.) 26 dead. Post-ban.

Again, 6 or 7 of the top 10 most deadly 'mass shootings' in US history have been carried out primarily, or in part with 'assault rifles' and/or high capacity magazines. This includes #1, #2, #3, #4, #8, #9, and possibly #6. Plus #11 and another 'mass shooting' which took place a few months ago in New Mexico. All four of the most recent top ten most deadly 'mass shootings' were carried out using previously banned 'assault weapons' and/or previously banned high capacity magazines. Record-high body counts were achieved as a direct result. The statistics above do not account for the deaths of the shooters.

The now expired ban saved lives not only by banning the sale of specific models of 'assault rifle' but also by banning the sale of high capacity magazines to private citizens. This effectively reduced access. Again, five of the top ten most deadly mass shootings in US history took place before the enactment of that ban. Two or three of which were carried out primarily, or in part, with specific models and/or magazines that would have been covered by that ban. Another four of the top ten most deadly mass shootings in US history have taken place since the expiration of that ban. Those four were all carried out primarily, or in part, using previously banned models and/or previously banned high capacity magazines. When high capacity magazines are used, they give the shooter the ability to carry more rounds, fire more shots, reload less often, and achieve a higher body count with greater ease. Confidence is almost certainly a factor as well.

The very presence of these 'assault weapons' in our society appears to have a negative influence on some. Adam Lanza and Nehemiah Greigo were both raised by gun fanatics. Both had access to a parent's AR-15 and high capacity magazines which they used to commit mass murder.

With all of these factors and details to consider, it is safe to say that 'more guns equals less crime' is a belief held by the terribly misinformed. The low information voter.

Just for the record: I am not a democrat. I am not anti-gun. I am a free thinking non-partisan owner of multiple firearms who believes in strong regulation. Regulation which no law abiding citizen has any reason to fear.

[-] 3 points by turbocharger (1756) 2 years ago

Lol ya because clearly people are too dumb to kill people with shotguns and pistols, and that rifle just gave him such a level of accuracy and destruction that nothing else could replicate it. Because lord knows dropping and popping a mag is just so time consuming and hard to do... ugh the stupidity of some of you.

He could have just done what tehy do overseas and made a bomb and let that off in there. Would have been a lot more effective. Or wait until everyone was leaving school and start driving over everyone with a rented uhaul.

You're a fool, thinking that his choice of gun somehow lead to this.

Just like you are a fool voting for war criminals for a more peaceful planet.

[-] -1 points by StillModestCapitalist (343) 2 years ago

I challenge you to explain why SWAT teams, military forces around the world and terrorists around the world prefer assault weapons equipped with high capacity 'quick change' clips over pistols and shotguns.

Then explain the list I just posted. In particular why Lanza chose the AR to begin with.

Next.

http://occupywallst.org/forum/ows-readers-beware-our-site-has-been-taken-over-by/

[-] 1 points by turbocharger (1756) 2 years ago

No one is saying its not a preferred weapon, with better stopping power, Im saying that if someone wants to walk into a school and start dumping bullets, the weapon really doesnt matter too much. Obviously.

See, the media has been able to convince you that its in fact the type of weapon to blame here, not this sick ass country we are living in. As long as there is a physical , material object to blame, we dont have to take a look at ourselves. FYI Republicans dont want to look at themselves or the fabric of the country either, they just want to use it as a rallying point for their base, helps them keep a small chunk of loyal idiots like you obeying and endorsing them.

Just remove the object and everything will be great!!

[-] -2 points by StillModestCapitalist (343) 2 years ago

The weapons and their availability damn well do matter. The 'Top ten' list proves it. The DOJ report proves it. If that's not good enough for you, then read this:

"On New Year's Eve, ShotSpotter, the technology that the Oakland Police Department uses to detect gunshots, recorded nearly two hundred incidents of shots fired in the city from 10 p.m. until 2 a.m. At 10:30 that night, ShotSpotter detected a crackle of heavy-caliber gunfire near 84th Avenue and Dowling Street in East Oakland. After a brief car chase, OPD officers cornered and arrested Steven Stevenson, a 31-year-old Oakland resident, on 77th Avenue near Hillside Street. While searching Stevenson's car, officers discovered a Colt DPMS assault rifle and a drum magazine that holds up to 100 rounds of ammunition.

The high-capacity magazine attached to Stevenson's assault rifle is similar to the 100-round drum used in the movie theater massacre last July in Aurora, Colorado -- an incident that left 12 people dead and 58 wounded. Oakland police say extended clips that carry up to thirty bullets for assault rifles and pistols are not uncommon on city streets and are easily obtained in neighboring states -- such as Nevada and Arizona -- that do not share California's law banning the sale of ammunition magazines that hold more than ten rounds.

Officer David Wong, a former Marine who runs OPD's armory, verifies the make, model number, and capacity of weapons seized in Oakland by city police. He told me that the 100-round drum magazine seized on New Year's Eve is one of three such drums that he recalls were taken off the streets by OPD since 2011 -- the other two being ones for AK-47 assault rifles. While these super-large magazines are not exceedingly common in Oakland, Wong said he has seen significant numbers of high-capacity magazines that hold more than ten bullets for rifles and handguns. On a recent afternoon, Wong displayed two 7.62-caliber clips for AK-47 and SKS-model assault rifles seized by OPD in late 2010, along with two rifles. According to Wong, 7.62-caliber rounds are capable of piercing body armor. "I've seen them go through the outer walls of a structure, as well as two inner walls," Wong said.

Weapons with such modified ammunition devices are also capable of rapid rates of fire, even if they aren't fully automatic. A 30-round AK-47 clip can be emptied in less than 25 seconds, while a 9 mm Glock pistol equipped with a drum magazine can fire all 50 rounds in the loader in 14 seconds. "If you have a person who is even minimally trained with a particular assault weapon, an AK-47 with a 30-round clip can be murderous enough to keep police officers at bay for quite a while," said Wong, whose forearm bears a tattoo with the date 3/21/09 under an OPD badge partially covered with a black band, in reference to the four officers killed by parolee Lovelle Mixon. SWAT team sergeants Daniel Sakai and Ervin Romans were cut down by 7.62 mm bullets from an AK-47 when they stormed the East Oakland apartment in which Mixon was holed up not long after he had killed Sergeant Mark Dunakin and Officer John Hege during a car stop.

According to the 2011 management report for OPD's Criminal Investigations Division, the department's gang unit took eighteen rifles off the street that year, and eight arrests by OPD resulted in assault weapons charges filed by the Alameda County District Attorney's Office. OPD does not keep statistics on the number of drum magazines or extended-capacity clips it recovers, however.

Extended 30- and 28-round clips for handguns, particularly 9 mm Glocks and Berettas, have become popular in recent years among Oakland's violent street gangs, police say. Wong noted that from the middle of 2011 through the first quarter of 2012, roughly 10 percent of all handguns seized by OPD officers had high capacity clips. One criminal enterprise that favored such munitions is the Burn Out Family, an East Oakland street gang heavily involved in the heroin and cocaine trade in the area of 82nd Avenue and Birch Street, 72nd Avenue and Hawley Street, and 88th Avenue and A street. A federal racketeering indictment made public last July resulted in charges against forty people who allegedly formed the core of the Burn Out Family.

Captain Ersie Joyner, who started the Burn Out Family investigation in 2007, said the gang's profitability was due in no small part to the propensity for violence by its members. "They were involved in more than ten murders from 2007 onwards, as well as over fifty shootings," Joyner told me. Burn Out Family's members also did not limit themselves to their East Oakland turf, Joyner said. They operated in "West Oakland, North Oakland, even up in Antioch," he added. Although gang members were documented using rifles that took heavy-caliber 7.62 mm and .223 mm ammunition, OPD said they were notorious for their use of 30-round extended clips for semi-automatic pistols.

Wong said he and agents from the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms became particularly interested in the magazines used by Burn Out Family members because they were in such good condition. "They were pretty nice, they hadn't been used previously, so that got our attention," said Wong.

Law enforcement officials say another major problem with extended-capacity magazines is that they are all but impossible to trace back to their point of origin. Steven Stevenson's Colt DPMS rifle, for example, would have been traceable back to the seller had its serial number not been obliterated. The drum magazine found on the rifle had no serial number. Wong said that is because ammunition magazines for public sale are not serialized. The only exceptions, he said, are for prototype munitions tested by the military.

Oakland's seriously understaffed police department (612 officers, down from more than 800 in late 200 is struggling to tamp down violence in 2013 after more than 130 people were killed in the city last year, the highest death toll since 145 people were slain in 2006. For example, New Year's Eve was the first time that OPD had officers on the street to respond to ShotSpotter alerts since July 4. "If you have the technology and we don't have anyone to respond correctly, we're not going to catch the guys," Joyner told ABC 7's Mark Matthews earlier this month.

As of January 13, six people had already been slain in Oakland, and last weekend, eleven people suffered non-fatal gunshot wounds in the city, police said. And the caliber and types of weapons available on city streets, particularly the high-capacity magazines and drums, increases the likelihood for carnage.

The four homicides that took place last Friday were no exception. An AK-47, an SKS rifle, and a modified Tommy Gun were among the eleven firearms recovered by OPD in response to the retaliatory violence between two feuding groups of young men. Eddiebo Rodriguez, 20, was slain with an assault rifle on 34th and West streets and police arrested a man in connection with his shooting on Friday evening.

Weapons traffickers also can make a handsome profit selling military-grade ammo magazines in Oakland. Luis Cardenas-Morfin, a West Oakland Norteño gang member currently serving time in federal prison for weapons trafficking, sold an AR-15 equipped with a 90-round drum magazine to undercover OPD Officer Eric Milina in 2010 for $2,500 (see "Getting Away with Murder," 11/16/12). An agent with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms traced the weapon back to a gun shop in Columbus, Georgia.

Nationally, the massacre of 27 people, including 20 children, in Newtown, Connecticut in December has reignited the national debate over gun control and high-capacity magazines, which were illegal under the federal assault weapons ban that ran from 1994 through 2004. Following the ban's expiration, many municipalities and states passed strict laws mirroring the lapsed federal ban. And since the Aurora shooting, US Senator Dianne Feinstein of California has been pressing for a renewal of the ban on assault weapons and high-capacity magazines. "Who needs these military-style assault weapons? Who needs an ammunition feeding device capable of holding 100 rounds?" Feinstein wrote in a July 29 opinion piece in the San Francisco Chronicle following the Aurora shooting. Under the ban, the manufacture and sale of extended-capacity magazines would be illegal, as it was for a decade.

However, there are no laws requiring criminal background checks for people purchasing ammunition. That could change for California residents if a bill introduced last week by East Bay Assemblywoman Nancy Skinner is approved by the legislature. AB 48 also would ban kits used to convert ammunition clips into high-capacity magazines, would require identification for ammunition purchases, and would create a licensing system for ammunition vendors and a statewide database of ammunition sales similar to that used for pseudoephedrine sales. "It is easier to buy ammo than to buy cold medicine, alcohol or tobacco," Skinner said in a statement last week. "It's time for buying deadly bullets to fall under the same controls as guns and Sudafed."

But even if Skinner's bill passes, the four-hour drive to Reno -- and Nevada's free-for-all gun laws -- will still be a draw for those seeking assault weapons and high-capacity magazines to use on the streets of Oakland."

http://www.eastbayexpress.com/oakland/high-capacity-magazines-flood-oakland/Content?oid=3436991

Now mark it down posers. Mark mark mark!

http://occupywallst.org/forum/ows-readers-beware-our-site-has-been-taken-over-by/

[-] 2 points by turbocharger (1756) 2 years ago

"that the Oakland Police Department uses to detect gunshots, recorded nearly two hundred incidents of shots fired in the city from 10 p.m. until 2 a.m"

Thats about all you need to know from this article to prove my previous point.

""It's time for buying deadly bullets to fall under the same controls as guns and Sudafed.""

Laughable. My god we are fuckin dumb in this country.

[+] -4 points by StillModestCapitalist (343) 2 years ago

Like cherry picking do you? Ok slick.

"The high-capacity magazine attached to Stevenson's assault rifle is similar to the 100-round drum used in the movie theater massacre last July in Aurora, Colorado --D an incident that left 12 people dead and 58 wounded. Oakland police say extended clips that carry up to thirty bullets for assault rifles and pistols are not uncommon on city streets and are easily obtained in neighboring states -- such as Nevada and Arizona -- that do not share California's law banning the sale of ammunition magazines that hold more than ten rounds."

Say that reminds me.

The vast overwhelming majority of gun homicides in America are committed by common criminals with easily acquired low-end hand guns. Not by 'assault rifles'. Not yet anyway. But we are well on our way as a nation, to making another HUGE mistake. The 'assault line' is now the fastest growing segment of the gun industry. Sales have skyrocketed. Again, I'm aware of the debate over semantics. But if it's a semi-automatic rifle with an extended capacity magazine, a pistol grip, a flash suppressor, and a bayonet lug, it was NOT designed for hunting. It was designed to mimic the performance of a military combat firearm like an M16 set to 'semi-auto'. That makes it by function, an 'assault rifle'. The extended capacity magazines are fundamental. In fact, there are no statistics to indicate that more than 10 rounds are necessary for home or self defense. None whatsoever. They were designed for close quarter combat.

Hasn't anyone ever wondered why 'fully automatic' machine guns haven't been used to commit ANY of the top ten most deadly mass shootings in US history? Hasn't anyone ever wondered why their use by common criminals, gang members, and psychos is so incredibly rare? The answer is simple:

IT'S BECAUSE 'FULLY AUTOMATIC' MACHINE GUNS ARE HEAVILY REGULATED BY FEDERAL LAW. THEY CAN NOT BE PURCHASED LEGALLY BY ANYONE WITHOUT A FEDERAL FIREARMS LICENSE. THE EFFORT AND COST INVOLVED TO OVERCOME THIS 'GUN CONTROL' OBSTACLE IS VERY HIGH. MUCH HIGHER THAN THE EFFORT AND COST INVOLVED TO ACQUIRE A SEMI-AUTOMATIC 'ASSAULT RIFLE' OR 'EXTENDED CAPACITY' MAGAZINE. THIS 'GUN CONTROL' OBSTACLE HAS BEEN PROVEN EXTREMELY EFFECTIVE.

See that? Gun control has prevented virtually every common criminal from acquiring their dream gun: A fully automatic machine gun. Hell. Even Adam Lanza failed to lay his hands on one. His idiot gun fanatic mother failed to acquire one. It's a damn good thing too.

Again, 'gun control' works when you give it a chance. The example I just gave is absolute proof of that. Unless you die-hard gun fanatics have some 'other' theory regarding the utter failure of virtually every common criminal, gang member, and psycho to acquire a fully automatic Uzi or any other machine gun. Or grenades for that matter. That's right. HEAVILY REGULATED.

Hand guns on the other hand have been sold in huge numbers to tens of millions of private citizens at relatively low cost. Tens of millions have been sold at gun shows and by private citizens with no back round checks. Hundreds of thousands more (possibly millions) have been stolen from irresponsible gun owners who failed to store or secure them properly. As a direct result of all this, they have become incredibly easy to acquire on the street.

I'm proposing that we acknowledge our colossal failure to prevent this, learn from our mistakes, and pass a few reasonable measures of 'gun control' soon in order to prevent millions of 'assault weapons' and tens of millions of 'extended capacity' magazines from ending up on the streets like ordinary hand guns have already. Also to reduce the flow of ordinary hand guns and give the authorities a chance to confiscate them from CRIMINALS at least as fast as they are easily acquired.

By the way, I do acknowledge that lower end firearms will always be easier to acquire than higher end firearms regardless of government regulation. Cost will always be a factor but that cost will always be relative. It will always depend in large part on the number of specific types and models produced. That number will always depend in large part on the retail market and the demand of consumers. The Federal regulations pertaining to fully automatic machine guns in America have been proven to be EXTREMELY effective. They are very expensive and very difficult to acquire legally. As a direct result, they are not possessed by the vast overwhelming majority of common criminals, gang members, and psychos in America. However, the loosest regulations in the developed world pertaining to virtually all other firearms in America have already made ordinary hand guns incredibly easy to acquire on any city street. They have already made 'assault rifles' relatively easy to acquire from gun shops, gun shows, and the largest retailer in the world. The 'extended capacity' magazines have become more common as well. If we don't get our sxxx together soon, those 'assault rifles' and 'extended capacity' magazines will eventually become almost as common on the streets as ordinary hand guns are now.

The sooner another federal AWB ban goes into effect, the better.

Mark mark mark!

http://occupywallst.org/forum/ows-readers-beware-our-site-has-been-taken-over-by/

[-] 4 points by turbocharger (1756) 2 years ago

Its not difficult to change a semi to an automatic. There simply isnt that much of a demand for it. The magazines have all been around forever, the government makes em by the millions. Its not like this is some new things or something, and we are against a clock.

Keep up the good work.

[-] -2 points by StillModestCapitalist (343) 2 years ago

I've heard and read that diversionary claim many times. Evidently, it's difficult enough otherwise the full autos would have made the 'Top Ten' list. They haven't. They are almost never used by criminals because they are very difficult to acquire by ordinary citizens. It's a damn good thing too. Say that reminds me.

 The United States have the most lax gun laws in the entire world. We also have a murder rate of 4.7 per 100,000 (2012), the vast overwhelming majority of which are committed with firearms. Much higher than average for a developed Nation. By comparison, Japan with the most strict gun laws, has a murder rate of 0.3 per 100,000 (2012). Virtually none of which are committed with firearms. Our murder rate is well over 15 times that of Japan. Our murder rate however, has dropped over the last 20 years as more and more states have been adopting more strict gun control measures. In addition, the relentless efforts of law enforcement agencies to confiscate and collect guns, many of which are melted down have been effective. This has been necessary to counter the effects of irresponsible gun owners who continue to sell them with no background checks and to allow them to be stolen from cars, garages, ect. Meanwhile, the flow of guns into the country continues. It is a constant battle resulting from the sheer volume of guns in America.

Mark mark mark!

http://occupywallst.org/forum/ows-readers-beware-our-site-has-been-taken-over-by/

[-] 2 points by turbocharger (1756) 2 years ago

No one needs to aquire one, you just change the one you already have. Again, its not tough. If there was a huge demand for one, that would be happening.

[-] -3 points by StillModestCapitalist (343) 2 years ago

The statistics indicate otherwise. Say that reminds me.

The reported statistics do indicate that gun crime rates in America, in general, have been falling since 1993. That's no secret. It's been reported hundreds or thousands of times on television and radio. It's been acknowledged and discussed in dozens of debates that I've taken part in. Surely, thousands across America. It's no secret. It's also been reported thousands of times that there are far more guns in America now than there were 40 years ago. All of the above is common knowledge. However, those statistics and apparent correlations are nowhere near as simple as you die-hard conservatives believe. In fact, much of what you believe is the exact opposite of reality.

Over the last 20 years or so, more and more states have been adopting more strict gun laws. Some even have their own bans on assault weapons (defined by law). These more strict gun laws do not place limits on the number of guns that citizens are allowed to own. They do not involve black vans showing up in the drive ways of gun owners in order to confiscate their arsenals. They simply add logical steps and verification to the process of acquisition, possession, use, and transport in order to prevent criminals, those under the influence, those unqualified, and the mentally ill from acquiring them so easily and using them so irresponsibly. The only outright 'bans' involve the sales and transfers of very specific types and models. Types and models which far exceed the level of firepower necessary for hunting or self defense.

In general, these states have lower rates of gun homicide per capita. There are anomalies but in general, that's the rule. Once the more strict gun laws are given ample time to have their desired effect in a given state, they do. It's well documented. These states are considered with all others when National gun crime rates are calculated.

For many years now, there have been extraordinary efforts on the part of law enforcement to minimize the numbers of guns on the street. Hundreds of thousands have been confiscated from criminals or bought back through well publicized events. Tens of thousands have been melted down. Tens of thousands more have been sold to gun shops who then re-sell them to law abiding citizens. Either way, the overall effect is positive. These efforts do effect national gun crime rates.

These efforts have been necessary to counter the constant flow of guns into America and onto the streets. Overall, the efforts of law enforcement are positive but it's a constant battle. One problem is that gun owners often sell them out of their garage or to a friend. They do so with no back round check. Others are stolen from irresponsible gun owners who fail to store or secure them properly. Because of these factors, street gangs and drug dealers are far more heavily armed now then they were 40 years ago. This is true in spite of the progress made within the last 20 years. This is well documented.

In order to be prepared for what they often encounter, law enforcement agencies across America have had no choice but to drastically increase their own arsenals and levels of firepower. This helps to compensate for the sheer volume of guns on the streets of most major cities. Also for the wide-spread ownership of assault weapons by ordinary citizens.

Another factor regarding those statistics is that street gang members and other criminals are far less likely to report gun crimes. Otherwise, the overall gun crime statistics would be slightly higher.

By the way, I see you conservative posers have been marking down my older comments again in order to reduce my overall user rating. That's fine. From now on, I will post the following link with each comment.

http://occupywallst.org/forum/ows-readers-beware-our-site-has-been-taken-over-by/

Mark mark mark!

[-] 4 points by turbocharger (1756) 2 years ago

Crime overall has been going down. A rabid police state, everyone is on pills, education standards by the Feds continue to shirnk, and we are all overweight.

Good on the grand scheme of keeping people calm. But you get a few more snappers than you want as the side effect.

[-] 2 points by MattHolck0 (3867) 2 years ago

If the US people won't buy guns are tobacco|

who should we sell to ?

[-] -2 points by StillModestCapitalist (343) 2 years ago

That's what I thought. No answer just another utterly predictable markdown.

http://occupywallst.org/forum/ows-readers-beware-our-site-has-been-taken-over-by/

[-] 1 points by Narley (272) 2 years ago

Reality check. There are an estimated 320 million privately owned guns in the US. There are an estimated 80+ million gun owners in the US. Guns are selling in record numbers. Every time someone proposes new gun control legislation there is frenzy of gun and ammo sales. Obama is probably the number one gun salesman in the world. Every time he opens his mouth people go buy more ammo and a new gun. The gun manufactures should pay him a commission.

Gun laws are trending to less gun control rather than tighter control. With the exception of two or three states gun controls have been loosened. I’m not 100% sure, but I think only one State has gun registration.

My point is guns are here to stay. People feel they need to be able to defend themselves. You can rant and work yourself into a tizzy as much as you want. But there’s nothing in the foreseeable future indicating more gun control.

[-] 3 points by turbocharger (1756) 2 years ago

I love people who openly vote for war criminals and war parties and then state that their neighbor with the AR in the closet is clearly the threat to humanity.

https://www.facebook.com/SocialistRifleAssociation

[-] -2 points by StillModestCapitalist (343) 2 years ago

Old news. But it's die-hard conservative commercially motivated NRA driven wacko paranoia that drives those 80 million gun owners to stock up everytime a Federal push is made for more gun control.

It's also that slow trend towards more responsible measures at the state level which has gradually driven down the gun homicide rate from extremely high to very high for a developed nation over the last 20 years. Except of course for higher body count mass shootings which have been on the rise thanks in large part to the increased availability of assault weapons and high capacity magazines.

[-] 3 points by MattHolck0 (3867) 2 years ago

Global Arms Sales By Supplier Nations

39% United States

18% Russia

8% France

7% United Kingdom

5% Germany

3% China

3% Italy

11% Other European

5% Others

http://www.globalissues.org/article/74/the-arms-trade-is-big-business#GlobalArmsSalesBySupplierNations

[-] -1 points by factsrfun (8851) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

so Matt your point is there is no difference? if there were zero GOP in office, a lot easier to do than bringing down the system by the way, there would be no difference in domestic gun policy or do the 11,000 who die each year from gun violence in the USA not matter to you? do you not care about domestic policy? only foreign affairs? is that all you care about Matt. you don't give a damn about the American children that are dying?

I guess the only thing you give a damn about is your precious self and how important it is that you don't vote for people who are not perfect.

[-] 2 points by MattHolck0 (3867) 2 years ago

our attention should focus on the source of the problem not some distracted congress

[-] 1 points by factsrfun (8851) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

the source of the problem is that people don't take voting seriously nor do they accept the consequences of their actions, whether those people are in congress or not it is the lack of responsibility in the voting process that leads to inhumanity

[-] 5 points by turbocharger (1756) 2 years ago

Says the guy who just voted for record wall st profits, bailouts, wars and pollution.

Talk about irresponsible!! Holy crap!! Another Republicrat Scoobie!!! Yoinks!!

[-] 0 points by factsrfun (8851) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

so the guy who just put the GOP in control of the Senate and the GOP into their biggest win in 83 years is proud of his voting record? there is your source Matt.

turbo the con has just had a huge win, getting the largest majority in over 83 years for the GOP, the GOP are looking to cut the earned income credit and raise taxes on the poor but turbo just loves it because it is his beloved GOP doing it

[-] 1 points by MattHolck0 (3867) 2 years ago

yes

people will work at weapons factories without accepting the consequences

[-] 0 points by factsrfun (8851) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

people work at gas stations too

still it is the lack of seriousness with which people and congress approach the voting process that is the source of the the problem, when people take voting seriously then and only then can they affect change

[-] 2 points by MattHolck0 (3867) 2 years ago

if congress were serious about voting| they'd make damn sure they had a quorum 51% of the population vote before proceeding

[-] 0 points by factsrfun (8851) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

if people were serious about voting maybe congress would care about what they wanted

if every person sat down and studied hard on how best to use their vote to get shit done congress would pay attention

[-] 2 points by MattHolck0 (3867) 2 years ago

get a quorum, and I'll take congress seriously

[-] -1 points by factsrfun (8851) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

I forget sometimes it's about you Matt.

[-] 3 points by MattHolck0 (3867) 2 years ago

relativity dictates that

[-] -1 points by factsrfun (8851) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

sometimes I forget, and think the OWS was about creating change when in reality it is just about appeasing you

[-] 3 points by MattHolck0 (3867) 2 years ago

got anything else?

that's kind of pat

help me to help you

An ad hominem (Latin for "to the man" or "to the person"), short for argumentum ad hominem, means responding to arguments by attacking a person's character, ...

[-] 1 points by factsrfun (8851) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

I would refer you to Kant rather than Freud though a broad study can be useful. The Buddha would suggest one step outside the struggle between superego and ID to become the observer.

[-] -1 points by factsrfun (8851) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

life is simple really, I thought you of all people you understood that, one can be of service and spend their time energy and vote to create change or to pleasure oneself you choose to pleasure yourself rather than affect change and the large number that share your position are the "source" of the problem, ego is always the enemy

do you think you are the only one to ever face this choice? I too have had to decide will I express myself and rail against all that is wrong and prove how insightful and wise I am, or will I act to change things as best I can, I choose the later...

[-] 4 points by MattHolck0 (3867) 2 years ago

thanks for your time

ego is the balance of the the will between the super ego (social programming) and ID (instinct )

as defined by freud

[-] 2 points by trashyharry (3082) from Waterville, NY 2 years ago

Who shall Grab the Guns? Not that hard to Figure Out-is it? Certainly the TP adherents have not Figured It Out.LOL!

[-] -3 points by factsrfun (8851) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

In Australia they gave up their guns, turned them in after a school shootings, the kind we have almost every week now, and gun deaths there have dropped significantly. It doesn't matter though because Americans, much to your delight have decided to go with the GOP and there won't be any silly talk of gun control, no matter how many children die next year.

Congrats to you and all who hate the Dems!

[-] 2 points by trashyharry (3082) from Waterville, NY 2 years ago

The Right Wing of Uniparty-the "Republicans" will Grab the Guns.It is already happening in Stealth mode.The whole deal is done.Wake up.So called "Independent" Voters-who are actually Republicans,have been deftly herded back to the Right by the Democrats.You really are an intolerant person.I do not live my life to please you or the Bogus&Decrepit Politicians you wish to empower.I ask nothing of you.Why do you insist that I endorse a transparent hoax like Uniparty?

[-] -3 points by factsrfun (8851) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

I don't insist you do anything it is by your own free choice you choose to help elect the GOP.

Why do you insist I ignore reality?

[-] 4 points by trashyharry (3082) from Waterville, NY 2 years ago

Well,that's enough out of you.Democrats are Filthy,Cowardly,Backstabbing Bushwhackers and Traitors.That is what you are;I've nothing more to say to you,except to ask you to Go To Hell with your Treacherous Uniparty Colleagues.the Republicans.

[-] -2 points by factsrfun (8851) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

My goodness you really love the Republicans, is there nothing you won't do or say to ensure your lovers the GOP will hold office?

You not only choose to helped elect the GOP it is your greats dream to have them at your side well they are now and you will be reminded of all you have help to bring about!

[-] 0 points by WSmith (2696) from Cornelius, OR 2 years ago

Name a Tylenol product or a Freedom of Speech Right that has not been pulled or postponed when it posed a threat, harmed or killed thousands of people every year?? Come on name it??

Moratorium on guns until innocent people stop getting threatened, harmed or killed by guns.

Human Rights to live and pursue happiness TRUMP dangerous uncontrolled hobbies.

They just do!!

[-] -1 points by StillModestCapitalist (343) 2 years ago

I would support a temporary halt on new or imported guns. We have plenty already. The used market selection alone is huge. There is no legitimate reason to produce or import anymore at this time.

By the way, I see the conservative posers have been marking down my older comments again in order to reduce my overall user rating. That's fine. From now on, I will post the following link with each comment.

http://occupywallst.org/forum/ows-readers-beware-our-site-has-been-taken-over-by/

[-] 2 points by WSmith (2696) from Cornelius, OR 2 years ago

I meant to include ammo, possibly just ammo could work, but many gun nuts make their own.

I would call the infiltrators here false flag pseudo-liberal complainers or agent provocateurs who are really conservatives, anarchists, or the lost unicorn chasers. Suffice to say, we're not preaching to the quire, who knows what hymn they sing, I doubt they do either. Possibly political vandalism or the usual suspect, Big Money. Can't forget plain old ignorance and/or stupidity: a couple years ago I was arguing with one about the viability of the RepubliCon Cult which he was certain would never recover from McCain. History was no help whatsoever.

One more point, Dems wrote OWS off in the beginning when they declared political castration. But Cons mine this board for intel and ideas, fyi.

[-] 2 points by turbocharger (1756) 2 years ago

Dems wrote off OWS when OWS told them to go fuck themselves. A message that has still not sunk into you after three years of begging for inclusion.

I always said the Dem organizers are not nearly as dense as their hard core followers. Thanks for proving the point yet again, whoever you are.

[-] 0 points by WSmith (2696) from Cornelius, OR 2 years ago

OK, eunuch, your unicorn chariot is waiting to take you through fields of unachievable glory and over the cliff of political irrelevancy. Enjoy

[-] 0 points by factsrfun (8851) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

This one coming tomorrow check it out early here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DV5zREdE-KE

[-] 2 points by MattHolck0 (3867) 2 years ago

guns and steal

[-] 0 points by factsrfun (8851) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

you can't steal what's given away

[-] 4 points by flip (7101) 2 years ago

I am waiting for a response to nader's 4 points. I imagine I will wait a long time since you have no possible response. Your dems agree with the 1% on all 4. You are a dishonest little quisling.

[-] 0 points by factsrfun (8851) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

Why don't you source what you are talking about and I will compare and contrast the Dems and the GOP for you, but why should I care about someone who said over and over he could find no difference between Al Gore and W Bush would you like me to source a few differences for you are you prepared to discuss the differences?

How can you trust the judgement of someone so stupid as to not be able to see a difference between W bush and Al Gore or someone so dishonest as to lie about it? either way?

[-] 2 points by flip (7101) 2 years ago

don't trust me - just respond to the four points - no sourcing needed. 1 the empire 2 outsourcing jobs 3 bailing out banks and 4 civil liberties- just in case you forgot. the policy on all four is similar under both dems and gop - the american people are against the policies of both on all four subjects

[-] 0 points by factsrfun (8851) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

If you will respond to one, more GOP in office, how does that help?

How does more GOP in office help any one of the four points you are concerned about?

How specifically do you feel the GOP are better at addressing these four issues?

[-] 3 points by flip (7101) 2 years ago

they are not and that is the point you dimwit! the FACT is that when the gop is in power there is more protest about these issues since too many in this country and around the world think like you - dimwit (i am being repetitive - shouldn't do that right). so there is more agitation and we might end up with an election where we have a real candidate for change - oh don't i remember a candidate like that??

[-] -3 points by factsrfun (8851) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

so you support the GOP because it might cause something to change? you are OK with the certain evil that is the GOP while you hope for someday, exactly what I have been saying about you. There's a FACT

and dimwit I have said from the beginning you support the GOP because you hope it will bring about your Green Party which you care far more about than the country in this comment you simply confirm all I have been saying.

[-] 2 points by flip (7101) 2 years ago

dimwit