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Forum Post: The right wing DOES exist and they are out to get us

Posted 2 years ago on Aug. 9, 2012, 9:47 a.m. EST by VQkag2 (16478)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

Group That Sustains ALEC's Voter Suppression Agenda Releases Sham "Study," to Acclaim From Right-Wing Media Tuesday, 07 August 2012 13:10 By Brendan Fischer, PR Watch | Report

A right-wing group that pledged to "continue the excellent work of the American Legislative Exchange Council" (ALEC) and promote voter ID has published a thinly-sourced blog post that purports to show people of color and the poor are actually helped by voter ID laws, an unsupported claim that is being hyped as a "study" by outlets like Fox News and the Daily Caller. More comprehensive research has demonstrated that these laws threaten to disenfranchise around 5 million people nationally, primarily people of color, students, and the poor.

In April, ALEC disbanded its Public Safety and Elections Task Force to distance itself from the controversial "Stand Your Ground" and voter suppression laws that had prompted a public backlash and an exodus of corporate funders (30 corporations have dropped their ALEC membership as of August 6). Soon after, a right-wing group called the "National Center for Public Policy Research" (NCPPR) announced that it would "continue the excellent work of [ALEC]" and form a Voter Identification Task Force to promote voter ID laws.

The only activity thus far from the NCPPR task force appears to be a blog post that tries to turn the tables on critics of voter ID laws and divert attention away from the well-documented fact that the laws are a cynical and politically-motivated effort to suppress the vote of Democratic constituencies like people of color, college students, and the poor, who disproportionately lack the state-issued IDs the laws require.

Weak Blog Post Described as "Study" by Fox News

"A new study says requiring ID would actually help increase minority participation," exclaimed Fox News personality Steve Doocy (as Media Matters reported). "According to a brand new study from the National Center for Public Policy Research, blacks and the poor are the most common victims of voter fraud and would be protected by voter ID laws. ... Attorney General Eric Holder's Justice Department though, has sued to block voter ID laws across the country claiming they are unfit to minority voters."

The "study" from NCPPR adjunct fellow Horace Cooper is actually a 1,898-word blog post that is long on rhetoric and short on research -- its cited sources are primarily opinion pieces or slanted articles from sources like Fox News and the Daily Caller, with minimal analysis. While Cooper (and the right-wing news outlets covering his article) claimed that these "findings" support the need for voter ID laws, in reality the types of fraud Cooper cites would not be affected at all by ID requirements.

Most of the "fraud" involved felons who said they did not know they were ineligible to register or vote. Other allegations in Cooper's posting involved registration errors and absentee ballot fraud. None of this would have been prevented by requiring a photo ID at the polls, and Cooper cites no examples of the kind of in-person fraud that stricter identification requirements might prevent.

In fact, the one legitimate news article Cooper cites to support his allegations of "voter fraud," a Richmond Times-Dispatch piece on election irregularities, includes this line: "None of the cases appeared to involve someone who misrepresented his or her identity at the polls to vote."

Daily Caller Stretches NCPPR's Unfounded Claims

Cooper's entire thesis is based on the unsupported assertion that "fraud" primarily happens in African-American and low-income communities, and therefore the allegedly "fraudulent" ballots cancel-out legitimate votes from black or poor citizens.

Cooper provides no source for this claim, other than a few isolated examples in upstate New York and Richmond, Virginia not related to voter ID and allegations by Democrat-turned-Republican Artur Davis that "fraud" happens disproportionately in African-American communities. Davis has recently become a right-wing rockstar and outspoken proponent of voter ID, speaking at this month's ALEC conference in Salt Lake City and at events sponsored by groups like the Heritage Foundation.

But this hasn't kept right-wing media outlets from breathlessly reporting on Cooper's blog post as if it were authoritative.

"Criminal justice data shows that blacks and poor people are the most common victims of voter fraud and are the greatest beneficiaries of voter identification rules, according to a new study," reports the Daily Caller. In fact, Cooper cites no "criminal justice data" in his blog post (he just lists a few isolated and anecdotal examples). And his comparison of turnout in Georgia and Indiana circa 2008 to show that African-American turnout did not decline after passage of voter ID laws is not credible, because it failed to account for the surge in turnout when an African-American was at the top of the ballot.

Additionally, the Daily Caller's sweeping claim that people of color and the poor are "the most common victims of voter fraud" appears to be based entirely on a single case Cooper cited from upstate New York -- a case involving absentee ballot fraud, which has nothing to do with requiring voter identification, and which would not have been prevented if a voter ID law had been in place.

The Daily Caller article also quotes Cooper saying "the courtroom evidence completely contradicts the [progressive claim] that blacks, seniors, college students and other disadvantages groups are being victimized." On the contrary, Cooper's blog post fails to cite any "courtroom evidence" that would support this claim. The one case he cites -- Crawford v. Marion County, the U.S. Supreme Court ruling on Indiana's voter ID law -- actually found only minimal instances of in-person voting fraud. And the upstate New York example has nothing to do with voter ID laws, and it does nothing to "completely contradict" the well-documented fact that imposing voter ID laws disproportionately impact people of color, college students, and the elderly.

The Brennan Center has found that nationwide, voter fraud is less statistically likely than getting struck by lightning, but voter ID laws can have a statistically significant impact on elections. More than 5 million people in the U.S. do not have the state-issued IDs required under the laws (many of whom are poor or people of color), and many of those individuals face significant challenges to obtaining an ID.

Political Rather Than Legal?

Cooper concludes with the allegation that the Department of Justice's refusal to pre-clear new voter ID laws in Texas and South Carolina "is political, not legal." But as Justin Levitt notes in his annotated takedown of Cooper's NCPPR blog post:

"The Justice Department's job is to enforce the law. [Section V of the Voting Rights Act of 1965] prevents covered states from implementing new election practices -- including practices intended to deter fraud -- unless the state can demonstrate, with real data, that the new practices do not make it more difficult for minorities to effectively exercise the franchise. Neither Texas nor South Carolina was able to do so, and so the DOJ applied the existing law. In this context, failing to enforce the Voting Rights Act would actually demonstrate the political agenda alleged."

Cooper's, NCPPR's Ties to Abramoff Lobbying Scandal

Though their "voter fraud" claims are largely unsupportable, both Cooper and NCPPR are quite familiar with other forms of fraud.

As CMD reported in April:

NCPPR was involved in part of the scandal that brought down [Republican National Committee] buddy and disgraced lobbyist Jack Abramoff. According to a U.S. Senate investigation of the financial dealings and influence peddling of Abramoff, NCPPR's founder and president, Amy Moritz Ridenour, directed money received by NCPPR at Abramoff's direction, to other "charities," again at his direction.

This included funneling money to a charity intended to benefit inner-city children, but which then funded luxury golf trips for members of Congress and bought products like sniper scopes for West Bank settlers in Israel. Talking Points Memo also reports that:

Cooper was indicted in 2009 on five public corruption charges, charged with exchanging political favors for gifts from Jack Abramoff. Cooper allegedly accepted bribes as a staffer to former Majority Leader Dick Armey, as chief of staff for Voice of America and when he worked for the Department of Labor. Cooper later pleaded guilty to a misdemeanor charge of falsifying a disclosure report and was sentenced to 36 months of probation.

"Kicking it up a notch?"

In NCPPR's tough-sounding press release from April announcing its effort to pick up where ALEC left off on voter ID, the group took a defiant tone, declaring that "We're putting the left on notice: you take out a conservative program operating in one area, we'll kick it up a notch somewhere else. You will not win. We outnumber you and we outthink you."

If NCPPR thinks that Cooper's 'study' is "kick[ing] it up a notch," they have a long way to go.

285 Comments

285 Comments


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[-] 3 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

Repubs stealing elections

[-] 2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

Save our votes

[-] 2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

Can't win fairly

[-] 2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

"Fight the powers that be!"

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[-] 2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

Yes. I found it on truth out

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[-] 2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

It's good to be suspicious. Can't trust any source. Gotta have a sixth sense, instinct to guide us.

I think you probably have a good nose for the truth.

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[-] 0 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

Oh well.

Thx

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[-] 3 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

No prob. I appreciate it.

Nxt time I will. In fact I can add it.

Peace

[-] 1 points by freethinking (6) 2 years ago

Wake up people this is what the so-called privilege think of people "Derailing for Dummies"......http://www.derailingfordummies.com/complete.html

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

blinded by the right

[-] 1 points by Cocreator (306) 2 years ago

If we want something done right,we have to do it ourselves, Citizens Audit Committee, Citizens Arrest Committee, Citizens Court..

[-] 3 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

Yes. Go citizens!!

[-] 2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

What are you on about?

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[-] 1 points by ericweiss (575) 2 years ago

Nothing new here - a young attorney you probably never heard of, was on the front line of voter supression- attempting to personally scare minorities away from polls during the 1950 s & 1960s oh yes - his name that you never heard of - or hope that you had never heard of- ........................................................................................................william rhenqusist

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

Bastards!

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[-] 3 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

Lol. I'm ready w/ my pitch fork & Torch!

Repubs can't win w/o cheating. It's the only way the 99% can lose.

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[-] 0 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

AAhh! your referring to Odin. The grand high inquisitor. "Are your thoughts pure? and in line with the revered founders?" He is still spending every effort to keep anyone from voting dem, or expressing that view.

It is hilarious that he thinks his assertion that "the parties are the same" isn't republican propaganda.

Whatta ignorant tool he is.

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[-] 4 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

I support the movement of course. I've gone to countless protests from last Sept 'till now. I know the people who refuse to engage exist but at every protest, I meet people who are regular dem leaning people.

That is the majority of the people who have been excited by this movement, whether the revered anarchist founders believe it or not. certainly they will eventually consense on the best path to the new system and I will be there. Right now I agree with them when I am told we must educate & agitate.

like many we are awaiting further instructions but we ignore anyone who suggests we give up your right to vote.

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[-] 2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

Well I'm also looking for opportunities. The "waiting for instructions line" really refers to the Anarchists inability to get agreement on an effective course of action.

I don't really wait for anyone.

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[-] 3 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

God bless their souls. The ones on this site spend more time explaining/defending anarchism than creating a new system or a strategy for creating a new system.

But I'll be available when they do it.

Solidarity

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[-] 3 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

We cannot disengage from the existing corrupt system. Apathy & staying home is what the 1% want.

We must attempt to drag the Dems back from the right, and make them serve the 99%.

It's the only way.

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[-] 3 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

Oh yeah I understand. And I agree their circumstances are clearly extreme & undesirable.

Peace

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[-] 3 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

ok. Your funny. lets agree no thermo nuclear explosion. Although OWS embraces all tactics I'm gonna say that one falls outside the non violent qualifier.

And certainly my comment is NOT the only way. I suppose that is just poetic license.

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[+] -7 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

Please direct us to a post where you initiated new ideas?

Or are you just going to keep trashing OWS as usual?

[-] 5 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

NO! I'll do what I please. You're not the boss of me.!

Elect progressives. Republicans ARE the problem.

[+] -6 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

"The ones on this site spend more time explaining/defending anarchism than creating a new system or a strategy for creating a new system."

Talking shit with NOTHING to back it up. Sounds like a career politician to me.....

[-] 5 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

Republicans are desperate to keep any non white males from voting. That ain't MSM. That's my determination.

As well as the opinion that you are a dishonest republican piece of shit.

[-] -3 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

Ya, you've stated the last line plenty of times, its still not funny. The fact that your simple mind always ends up in the same line of thought of isnt either.

Its ignorant, and its really fuckin the country up.

Ive stated it before LET EVERYONE VOTE. I dont care about any stats in voting, just let em all vote. It doesnt change the fact that our choices are preselected.

[-] 5 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

You're a partisan republican trying to dishonestly convince us that ALEC and your right wing paymasters aren't trying to keep dems from voting.

You must be brain damaged if you think anyone would believe those lies.

[+] -6 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

Its not going to work. People have ID's. You need them for everything. Its a none issue.

Its morons like you that gobble it all up, take sides, attack, and forget that we are bombing people for money, bombing for resources, and the banks are STILL ROBBING US.

Wake up you fool.

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[-] -3 points by Odin (583) 2 years ago

You forgot your customary salutation after the "fuck you."

Peace, and now Solidarity lol

[+] -4 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

Sorry sir, but you are the real Republican in this debate. Im not endorsing these criminals, but you are.

That will be your legacy. The entire country falling apart, bombs dropping over seas, and you decide to endorse it.

Quite the activist you are.

Better not go swimming during the RNC, or Vkag and his boys will shoot ya!! http://www.tampabay.com/news/publicsafety/law-enforcement-plans-to-protect-rnc-activities-by-sea/1244619

[-] 5 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

You don't know what you're talkin about. Why don't you go kick a homeless guy, you greedy, selfish, right wing shill.

[+] -6 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

I'm proving it right with every denial. You have nothing, and have no intention of supporting anything besides the usual tried and true tactics.

And you publicly stated you dont mind hundreds of deaths overseas. You have proven yourself to be much more a Republican than I ever thought about being,

No posts. Nothing. Just more attacks on the ones that do stuff.

[-] 4 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

You and your right wing paymasters have screwed up this country with your unwavering support of conservative policies that benefit the 1% plutocrats.

lying republican piece of shit that you are.

[+] -5 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

You are going to vote for the very corporations you despise.

At least you admit it. I cant call you a liar. A pro corporate candidate that loves bombs. You freakin love em. Nice job as usual. Dude.

[-] 3 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

Stop ALEC, Find petitions, Sign them, See which pols support ALEC legislation. Vote them out of office.

"It's the only way to be sure"

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[-] 2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

Let's develop a local city counsel level direct voting experiment where every eligible voter is encouraged to vote on all issues (at least several over a 3 month period) Using a verifiable internet based system.

We need software and a test city (or 2, or 3).

How's that for a new idea. Are you with us?

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[+] -6 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

Ok, since you refuse to listen to the people you have met in Burlington, l

A) its an idiot partisan post. Go to a pro Dem/REp site with that crap.

The monster you speak of is a squid, not an octopus. Ive never heard anyone refer to Goldman Sachs as an octopus. But I guess you have to understand what we are protesting with the banks to ever get that one, so nevermind.

You calling this idiotic legislation a hate crime is a huge disrespect to those who have been vicitms. You once again prove how out of touch you are.

Keep it up, perhaps you can drive even more people away....

[-] 2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

Stand up against republican violations of voters rights

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[+] -4 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

Hate crimes are not letting felons vote. Anyone can go get an ID. Felons are screwed. Thats some real bullshit there.

You say two faced, but thats becuase everyting is R and L with you. There isnt anything else.

Which is exactly how they plan it. Very easy to control. No real thinking, just follow the party.

Then we wonder why nothing changes. Jeesh!!

[-] -2 points by Odin (583) 2 years ago

I could give you some" instructions," but you probably wouldn't like them.

[-] 4 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

Go ahead. Be honest. If you feel like giving some nasty, mean spirited instructions have at it! You've done it before. It is at your core. It is what you're about.

Vote early & often. Elect progressives. Republicans ARE the problem.

[-] -2 points by Odin (583) 2 years ago

No...I would never take that BAIT. I know how to walk the top of a fence without falling off. I would urge you to be more honest, and not use McCarthy-like tactis on people who disagree with you out of conscience.

Once again, you would be hard-pressed to find anywhere on this forum where I have cursed someone who disagrees with me...and that is definitely something you cannot say!!

[-] 0 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

Whaaat? You have become unhinged. Just more attacks. Nothing positive. Nothing substantive.

Put aside your hatred. embrace love & inclusion.

Peace, Love, & understanding. (whasso funny 'bout it?)

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[-] -3 points by Odin (583) 2 years ago

More typical mis-representation on your part. Most people know though that that is part of your MO, by now. No, i am not "spending every effort to keep anyone from voting dem.." And you know that by the many exchanges we have had in the past. I am doing my part to keep this defiant movement from becoming election central, and hence ineffective. That's all.

"Ignorant tool"...WOW, and then a "fuck you" on your PM to me....then "dishonest piece of shit" to another poster." Are you changing your tactics?? I mean, what happened to your, 'we all gotta work together' spiel? This doesn't seem like a very good start to me. lol

peace

[-] 4 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

Just a momentary lapse of reason.

[-] -2 points by Odin (583) 2 years ago

No, it was not "a momentary lack of reason"...but rather several of them indicating not only a complete lack of reason, but also what a hypocrite you are, especially when you do your customary sign off of Peace, and now that you know Solidarity. It is surprising to me that you didn't know the latter, considering all your 'supposed' street actions.

Unlike, many other people here who diisagree with me on this issue....and who I respect... of dem co-option, out of conscience, and/or deep seated beliefs, you are not here to promote eiher of those noble goals of peace,and solidarity.

Instead, you are here to divide this movement by purposefully mis-representing what people say...creating divisons between us....flinging your McCarthy-like republicon accusations around at people...and being down-right deceitful.

You are even an embarassment (or you should be, at least) to some of the good people who agree with you, and disagree with me on this issue.

In the three months that you have been here, you have proven to me that you are here for one reason, and that is to divide this movement, and to bring it into the folds of the democratic party...where it will die, and where there will be no chance of systemic reform in our politiclal, and financial institutions.

You are a phony, plain, and simple.

Peace, and now that you know Solidarity...at least to all the people here who want this movement to succeed.

[-] 2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

I've been using Solidarity for weeks on this site!. Just shows you cannot be relied on as a spokesman for me. You ain't! I've used Solidarnosc since Lech Walesa made it famous 33 yrs ago!!

Your rant just isn't true. I had a real problem with someone suggesting there isn't voter suppression happening, I got upset, & lost my temper. No biggie.

I still support education, agitation for a new system of direct democracy, protests, petition signing, letter writing, phone calls, face mail, and of course voting and pressuring all pols to pass progressive policies to correct the conservative damage we are struggling with.

Peace. Elect progressives! Republicans ARE the problem!

[-] -2 points by Odin (583) 2 years ago

You have not been using 'Solidarity' , recently on this site (if ever), only since I brought it up have you started, and i have always thought that odd considering how you are supposedly such an avid 'street person.' At this point though, we both know how easy it is to edit it in, though, don't we.

WOW "Solidarnosc." I'm impressed, although I do know that Google is a wonderful thing. I do not have to go to that web site to know that you, and Walesa should not be mentioned in the same breath.

Ever since you arrived here three months ago, you have caused dissention in a mutitude of ways. You gain credence by saying good stuff, and them follow it up with a bunch of crap, ie. partisanship. You have frustrated me, and many other people on here by misrepresenting their positions, and then using a McCarthy-like tactic called red baiting. This is absolutely shameful on your part.

Solidarity for all those people who care about the success of this movement.

[-] 2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

Your rant is untrue.

My use of "solidarity" is not related to you!. (not everything is you know)

I have not attempted to create dissention, nor do I accept your suggestion that I have. "mccarthy-like"? I don't know what your talkin about.

My only disagreement with you is your claim that my views aren't in line with OWS and your contention that I don't belong here.

Your disagreement with me appears to be my support for reforming/using the current corrupt system (D's not R's) to lay the ground work for the creation of a new system. Although you have thrown a lotta other accusations as well.

Building a new system, requires dealing with this system.

Don't give up your right to vote.! Elect progressives! Republicans are the problem.

[-] -2 points by Odin (583) 2 years ago

The dissention that you create is by your non-stop hack-like crusade to turn this into election central do not belong here, or the divisivness you try to create. And then we have your McCarthy-like labeling of everyone that disagrees with you.

[-] 2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

I am reasonable, and loyal OWS supporter. That's why I appear that way.

I understand that you and many don't want to be involved with this corrupt system as a matter of principle.

I simply believe that there is an election in 87 days and we cannot surrender any more power to the right wing republicans who proudly trumpet the conservative policies of the 1% plutocrats.

We must agitate all pols to enact the laws that will lay the groundwork for the new system our anarchists are feverishly working on. At the same time we must agitate all pols to enact policies that benefit the 99%.

  • Money out of politics. mandatory voting and other election reform.

  • Cut taxes/debt for working class. 90% rate for income over $1 mill

  • End the oil wars.Cut military budget 50&

  • Public option.

  • Freeze foreclosures

  • Living wage,Greentech/infrastructure jobs, penalize outsourcing

And more. That is what I'm about.

You are only about insults, attacks, in order to silence me, or convince me not to vote, or scare me away. You can't do it. Give it up. Turn away from the dark side.

Peace, Love, & Solidarity.

[-] -1 points by Odin (583) 2 years ago

What you NOW try to portray yourself as being in these faux little concilitory, and hypocritical comments is not anywhere near what you have been, and continue to be.

Fine, do what you have to to get your man elected. Those are all great initiatives, which OWS is involved with. But do not drag down OWS into the sullied world of electoral politics.

Finally, it is very hypocritical for a person to criticize me for insults, and attacks, that regularly uses profanity, misrepresentation, and red baiting on anyone who disagrees with him.

Oh wait, I forgot...add, 'soliciting other posters here to agree with your vile assessment of me.' To that poster's credit...he refused to do so. That's called 'class' VKwag, but you wouldn't know that, would you?

So PLEASE don't be a hypocrite VKwag, as you know what you are, and after your three month extremely intensive campaign in which you have tried your damndest to co-opt this movement into the dem party, using every trick in the book, a lot of other people here know what you are too.

[-] 0 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

"hypocritical"? (3x) untrue 3x

"drag down OWS"? not my goal

"regularly uses profanity"? lie! (maybe 1 incident last week)

"damndest to co-opt"? Nope just challenge republican trolls.

Again this offensive rant is untrue. Please put this personal attack on me aside and focus on issues important to OWS. 1st and foremost keep conservatives out of power. & elect progressives.

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[-] 2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

I know nothing of this accusation of dissention you keep leveling at me. I disagree.

I support voting and agitating for reform within the existing corrupt system to lay the ground work for a new system. I challenge the opposite view.

I'm not trying to turn this forum into election central, you are WRONG when you accuse me of that.

In any event, I'm allowed to express my opinion! Debate "BELONGS" here. You do not decide which arguments/positions/opinions/goals belong here. When you make that determination YOU approach the McCarthyism you have incorrectly hurled at me.

I haven't said your arguments don't belong here. Even if I disagree. Even if I think your comments do not belong here I don't say "that doesn't belong here" Because that ain't my place (or yours). Instead I attempt to argue the opposing view and let the 2 opposing ideas compete in the marketplace of ideas. That is the best way to handle disagreements.

For me our disagreement is about whether we should discourage OWS supporters from voting. You seem to have have expanded the disagreement to include my goal of:

1- "creating election central" Not my goal!

2- "creating dissention" Not my goal.

3- "attaching OWS to dems" Not my goal

4- "McCarthyism" Not my goal

So these accusations are just an attempt to create a bigger problem. I'm not trying to do anything you've suggested. We just disagree about voting, and whether it is appropriate for my to argue that voting is allowed.

Peace, Love, & Solidarity

[+] -4 points by Odin (583) 2 years ago

Defanging this movement by bringing it into the folds of the democratc party is indeed your goal.....and you use every available 'TACTIC,' including more insidious, and profane ones to further that goal. Then you step back and pompously, and hypocritically call for Peace, and Solidarity.

Vote if you choose (how's that VKwag), but the road to our victory does not lead through the washed-out road of the Democratic party. Taking that road will will lead us to nowhere

[-] 3 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

"defanging the movement" is NOT my goal. I want to grow it. We must be more inclusive. Embrace all like minded left leaning groups. Moveon.org, Siearra club, Working families party, green party, socialist, communist, Anarchists, unions, and even the dems (who are least left wing of all listed).

It's the only way.

Elect progressives. Republicans ARE the problem

[-] 1 points by Odin (583) 2 years ago

I met a young lady from Wisconsin at Astoria Park during the Occupy Town Square event on Saturday.

She was one of the organizers for the recall of Governor Walker, and is now in OWS.

She was returning to Wisconsin to register to vote, I think after having been registered in the state that she attended university in.

I asked her, "you're going to vote for Obama?" She said no, and said she was voting 'no confidence.'

She felt betrayed by him, and agreed with me that a tweet from Obama, the night before the voting took place was not enough.

She also found it galling that Obama started soliciting for votes in WI soon after the recall election.

Take from that true story what you will VKwag.

[-] -1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

What are you talking about? Fan club?

I'm trying to get you to understand a clear observation.

I hope you noticed that I proved my point here on the forum, about the fact that this place is infected with libe(R)tarian Randites. Many of them "bordering" on bigotry.

I would posit that the movement itself was always much more important to them than this forum.

To think that it could not already be co-opted is folly.

That you often repeat the lie of duopoly is at least some level of proof, in and of itself.'

Your fear of co-option from the left shows a lack of trust in your own convictions, and left OWS wide open for a covert, successful co-option from the "right".

A co-option that pushed any real level of change far into the future, while they continue their voter purges in the States.

As I've said many times..........that's where the battle needs to begin.

A staunch refusal to get involved has set OWS back a long, long way, as has the focus on national politics.

That IS the aim of the co-opters, and they have been successful.

Who else among the "fans" is trying to explain this to you?

I haven't noticed any others.

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

So she felt Obama didn't do enough for the wisconsin gov recall? Me too. But I know he did help. More than the tweet you suggested. In any event I don't expect Pres Obama to do everything. Not everything I want! Not everything I need! Not everything I ask! I expect any pol to be a pol and do something! Make progress! Move forward!

People who think otherwise, that he must do everything otherwise he is just like the criminal republicans.are WRONG!. Impossible to move much faster than he has because the republicans have been mounting the most powerful resistance on behalf of the 1% plutocrats that we have ever seen.

So in Wisconsin, & in DC we must take what we can get and PROTEST. It's up to us. We cannot be the stereotypical self absorbed. expectant suburban Americans who want evrything and are unwilling to work. It is up to us! We must force our leaders to implement the progressive solutions we need to correct the conservative policy damage.

[Removed]

[-] 1 points by gnomunny (6587) from St Louis, MO 2 years ago

Why are you wasting your time on these guys?

[-] 2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

What is this?

[-] 1 points by Odin (583) 2 years ago

Cause i believe it's important that that OWS does not get steered into ineffectiveness.

[-] -1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

It's already been defanged by the co-opters from CATO.

The non-involvement path is the one to nowhere.

It's the path you've been encouraging.

[-] -1 points by Odin (583) 2 years ago

I see my 'fan club' is hard at work here. lol

[-] -2 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

I see you're still playing the fear card.

Coupled with a lack of faith .

I still have to wonder where that is really coming from.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (28274) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Obviously He thinks that being a non-violent movement - that all changes will be made by government - because we are complaining. No need to retake government - nope - silly thought.

[-] 0 points by Odin (583) 2 years ago

Lol One more time shooz, i do not use the word "fear" for this stuff. I save that word for times where my life has been in imminent danger.

"lack of faith,." in seeing this movement succeed with OWS tied up with the dems. Yeah, that's accurate.

It's "really coming from" the lessons of successful struggles in the past.

The solutions will not come from there (history) though.

[-] -2 points by Odin (583) 2 years ago

That meek reply belies what you have been trying to do on here, and once again is disingenuous.

The road to our success does not pass through Demville, rather that is a detour that will bring you a bit further..but it comes to a dead-end.

[-] 3 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

"disingenuous"?

I am being completely honest despite your assertions to the contrary. I support a new system of government, from the ground up, horizontal, with real direct democracy. I believe further it is inevitable that we will evolve to such a system.

I submit we must use /cajole the existing corrupt system to lay the ground work forthat system. 1st and foremost we must prevent conservatives from gaining more power. They are the greatest threat to our future system. (just listen to their attacks on us).

That is my opinion. There is no personal attacks upon you. No need! We are in this together.

"We are not enemies, but friends. We must not be enemies. Though passion may have strained it must not break our bonds of affection. The mystic chords of memory, stretching from every battlefield and patriot grave to every living heart and hearthstone all over this broad land, will yet swell the chorus of the Union, when again touched, as surely they will be, by the better angels of our nature." A.L.

Whatta ya say? truce? I won't tell you to vote, if you stop personally attacking me and trying to silence my opinion.

[-] 0 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

the conservatives have been talking about the anti-war movement?

I mean occupy wall street

memory is passed from the survivors to the child not the dead

[-] 2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

"both camps" regarding anti war. I think repub party is clearly against the anti war movement. Dem party is spineless, silent for fear of being called weak on defense/terror.

But the left wing population makes up the anti war movement. The right wing supporters are against

[-] 2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

You lost me boss. But I'll give it a shot.

Conservatives are war mongers! They attack OWS, & the anti war movement. Liberals embrace OWS, & the anti war movement was created & is made up of liberals!

"Memory" of our bombs? "passed...." indeed, we create more "terrorists". I agree. A good reason to be against the drone bombing, & all "war on terror" death we create.

Make sense? Hope so.

[-] 0 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

lol

I haven't heard any news from either camp: repub or dem

I haven't been listening though

[-] -3 points by Odin (583) 2 years ago

There are some beautiful passages in your comment which no one who has any moral compass could disagree with, but once again it belies what you have tried do here, and does not indicate to me that you will not stop doing what you have been doing.

Namely trying to steer this movement into ineffectiveness by linking it to the dems, and having this site become election central for them, and continuing to create divisions between the people near the heart of this movement, and us.

I could care less if people voted or not, but stilll you misrepresent me in implying that I do, hence you are feigning ignorance to what our argument is about.

Your appeal is insincere.

[-] 3 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

"I could care less if people vote.." I think that is part of the problem.

I am not trying to "steer this movement" anywhere. I do not want to link OWS to any party (dem or otherwise). I do not want to make this forum "election central". I do not want to "create divisions"!

You don't speak for me. I do not subscribe to your definition of my goals. It is wrong for you to state my intentions.

I have challenged many comments by you (and others) that seek to discourage progressive OWS supporters from voting. I believe that to create a new system of governance we must attempt to lay the ground work (election reform), and contnue to improve the lives of the 99% within the existing system. 1st and foremost we must keep the right wing from gaining any more power.

So I think clearly we have a miscommunication here. Maybe this has helped clarify my position.

Peace, Love, & Solidarity.

[-] 0 points by Odin (583) 2 years ago

Almost everyone who has challenged you on here knows that you are speaking with a 'forked tongue' here. Unlike the few who may agree with you out of conscience...and hence diasagree with me.....you do not further your goal with anything that resembles integrity. Instead you portray those people who disagree with you as extremist, 'out of the loop', and of course republicons. Your tactics are ones that try to 'ostracize' your opponents, and to portray yourself as the reasonable, and loyal OWS member.

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (28274) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

At this point in time?

Besides finding independents to get into office to support and promote.

I see absolutely nothing wrong with campaigning against the corpoRATist's and currently that means that the visible majority are hiding in plain sight standing behind the Republican Banner.

Obamma? Romney? If one or the other - then - Obamma. If a third party or Independent is found and has strong public support - then push support for that individual. But do not compromise the vote to where it would let Romney possibly win.

The healing of our country will come from getting money out of politics and getting the people involved in politics. Voting issues and not party's.

[-] -2 points by Odin (583) 2 years ago

Yes, all that might be true. It becomes a question of 'where' we do it, and where our energies are put to best use though. It is my firm belief, and it is shared by most other people in the 'streets' that Occupy Wall Street has to remain a defiant movement, and inclusivity does not mean getting tanged-up with the dems.

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (28274) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

OWS is a-political. OWS does not at this time support or campaign for candidates or parties. OWS is about pointing out the ills of this country and organizing and supporting protests. OWS however ( In my Understanding ) does not stand in the way of people getting involved in the political process. Quite the contrary - OWS on one of their gathering coverage updates has even supported people getting involved with the Move to Amend state by state campaign to end corpoRAT personhood and get money out of politics.

So I think you should stop and consider that if these people that "YOU" have a problem with - are being left alone by the forum administration - then perhaps you should leave them alone as well.

Hell take it up with the forum.

[-] -2 points by Odin (583) 2 years ago

Yes OWS may indeed be active in these initiatives, as are many progressive groups, including the dems, and possibly even groups to the right that value their freedoms, and a government that is representitive of the people. That though does not, and should not mean people here thinking that that is a license for them to turn this defiant movement into a pro dem movement. This delineation of tasks might seem minor to you, but it is not to me, and most people in the streets. We must keep our autonomy, and our defiance if we want a sea change.

You may find some, but there is very little 'wiggle room' between my beliefs, and OWS. That is not because I am meek, and a follower, but rather because I truly agree with this strategy. There is a lot of WR between those here who want to turn this forum into election central for dems, and OWS, i can guarantee. What people do outside of OWS is their business. We though must remain the defiant movement that we are.

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (28274) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Odin I don't want to see if I can get you booted. I really do not want to do that. You talk about who is there for who. We were all being attacked and we were all standing up for each other. And we have had our private talks. And I have talked to others about trying to get along and trying not to alienate others. Again you have decided that you are the determiner of what OWS believes in. You go to jart and you lay out your case and you tell her how you are badgering supporters of OWS because they want to work on political solutions and that you deny them because this is not OWS's way. I have already told you - that is not your call - complain to jart about the people who want to talk about political solutions and see what she has to say to you about it. The forum has not censored or booted these people - why do you think it is OK for you to do it? Yes I have gotten plenty nasty with attackers of the forum - I have also done my best to support all supporters of OWS. So you go make your case to jart - but till then you stop picking fights with supporters of OWS that you do not agree with.


[-] 1 points by Odin (2890) from Island Heights, NJ 4 minutes ago

Please DK, carry through with your threat/promise to get me banned from here Go for it DK! Use whatever influence you have with jart, and go for it.

If I get banned for standing up for the principles that OWS believes in...well so be it. I will pick out a new pseudonym, and start all over again. And unlike one of the people here who shares you beliefs, I will use only one alias, as I do not want to make a mockery of this forum, like the people you protect by your silence.

What you viewed as a slam way back was not. It was a 'miscommunication' that time, and I told you that in a PM. This is not a miscom..... Considering your THREAT of having me banned, this is unequivocally a SLAM on you!

Once again I seriously doubt that you would try to have anyone banned that was trying to turn this movement into election central for the dems, and did so in a vile, disingenuous way.

Nor have you ever said anything to a person who was near/constantly trying to create division here between the people who are close to the heart of this movement , and us.

All of the "nice stories" that you pass off in such a conascending way, were all true, and from the heart. I have shared my personal life, including family on here more than most people in the hopes of reaching out to others. Until now, I have only regretted having done so once. This makes twice.

Where was your voice DK when I let it be known that I lost almost 400 pts. within four days. I knew that I was a victim of a vindictive little man with multiple pseudonyms, ie. You just don't go from a plus 5 for a comment that is not offensive in any way... into the negative territory overnight without some shenanigans going on. All over this forum good non-incendiary comments of mine, and people who agreed with me were batted down in droves. Where were you DK?

You chastize me for not coming uo with any ideas, but where was your voice when Factsy made a mockery out of my Salmon and Gold thread? Those were important issues to me that I wanted to have addressed on here. Where were you DK?

You like to think of yourself as the leader (obviously) of this forum, but where were you DK when Factsy put up that malicious thread on me? Silence from a person who considers himself the leader of this forum can be the same as being complicit, DK.

Contrast that to back in May when you were the victim of troll attacks for your partisanship. You, and others on here were losing hundreds, maybe thousands of points. Who never chimed in with them on their deleterious attacks on you for your partisanship? Who sent you, and others on here several PMs telling you that he did not like what they were doing to you, despite agreeing with them that this forum should not turn into a partisan playground? Who 'promised' you (and carried through with that promise) that he would vote you up, and them down because of their maliciousness alone? THAT WAS ME DK who stood up for you....despite our differences. I guess you have forgotten all this. Could I have done more so that your voice wasn't silenced? Yes, I could have, and should have, and I have regretted not having done so, until now that is.

Fighting goes on here every day on this forum, you included. You would be hard-pressed to find anywhere here where I used profanity though. But yet you give a pass to those who use it if you agree with them. Sounds a bit hypocritical to me. Doesn't it to you?

In fact DK....doesn't all your actions, or mostly inactions come across as being a bit hypocritical?

So go for it DK...get me banned. I have dealt with people who are hypocrites, and have no loyalties all my life. So I am used to people like you.

[-] -1 points by Odin (583) 2 years ago

No DK, we were not ALL being attacked by the trolls back in May. It was only the people who were advocating for partisan politics who were...not me...if anything I believe i may have gained points, not by allying myself with the trolls though. I did not take advantage of your plight by ganging up with the trolls on you, or anyone else here who disagreed with me. Infact, i supported you, and others on here despite our differences. That is an important distinction, and you should not gloss over it. You might even be able to learn from it. It's called 'loyalty' DK, and you have shown your lack of it by your THREAT to have me banned.

I respect jart for having set up this wonderful site, and I expect that she too is somewhat disappointed in what it has turned into. Still, I would remind her that there are a lot of good ideas, and learning going on here.

But I will not lower myself, and complain to her. That's obviously your....thing.....DK, not mine. And I especially won't heed your silly advice, and tell her how I'm "badgering supporters of OWS.....".lol. Nice try though. lol lol If she were to ask, I would tell her how I am supporting the principles of OWS by not letting this become election central for the dems.

I have not "censored or booted" anyone. Like most people here, when treated fairly, I respond in-kind, but when not, I also respond in-kind. I will also not roll-over, and accept their McCarthy-like slurs, or their insidious accusations. And you can be damn sure that I will answer fire with fire.

I do not recognize you as one of the leaders of this forum, despite your massive point total. Ever since the troll attacks, you have been hedging. I truly thought that you had grown more statesman-like I was wrong. I now know from your THREAT on me now, that your classifying yourself as "people/partisan" is double-speak for partisan/partisan.

The alienation that you talk about is happening because some people here want to turn this into a partisan playground, and anyone who disagrees with them suffers the consequences by misrepresentation of what I, and many others here are saying. And of course being labeled a republicon or something simular.

Partisanship...and looking for political solutions to some of our problems are two different things...but you have melded them together to make me look further 'out there.'

Once again Grand High Exalted Leader, do what you have to. My 2,800 points are not worth my integrity!

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (28274) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

You sure do know how to twist things don't-cha. So one of the things that you are saying is that back in the beginning of your time here on the forum that you did not agree with my stance approach posts and comments but you voted for them anyway out of loyalty? Loyalty to what? Loyalty for what?

I have always said that no one gets a free pass - that I will support good comments good posts and that I will let some one know when I disagree with their point of view comment post. As I have done with you in your stubborn stance that it is your way or the highway that you are the judge the protector of OWS and all of its beliefs.

You have been hiding behind a false front. You came on the scene gladhanding and back thumping everyone in "site" who had an established score. Yeah I love your approach you would say - yep we need to do more of that you would say - Multifaceted I love that word and the concept of moving forward on multiple fronts you would say - a multipronged attack brilliant keep the enemy off balance you would say.

The whole time you were putting on a false front to gain acceptance - as you did not believe a word of what you were saying according to your militant stance that you are taking now.

Nope now it is Odin's way or the highway. How times have changed.

I suspect you don't want to take this to jart - because you don't want to be put in your place - however politely that she might do that.

And you say that you are used to people like me. Does that mean you put on a false front for acceptance and end up being found out and called on it?

As I have also seen many like you - Smiling faces smiling faces tell lies - they don't tell the truth.

I have been consistent in my beliefs and my actions from day 1 - you on the other hand have not.

And for some reason you seem to be wrapped up in the idea of points.

Is that how you choose a pecking order? As there is no pecking order here. the points behind your user name are a nice way to see if you are new or if you have been here awhile - they are also a handy way to spot imposters using the name of another user of the site as cover for their attacks in trying to sow divisiveness.

Scores used to mean more at least on individual comments as they ( down votes ) could be used to collapse comments. They ( attackers ) can't collapse comments anymore.

So again get off your pitty pony and go take your case your complaint your virtue to jart and let her tell you what she thinks as this is her site her forum.


[-] 1 points by Odin (2890) from Island Heights, NJ 4 minutes ago

Please DK, carry through with your threat/promise to get me banned from here Go for it DK! Use whatever influence you have with jart, and go for it.

If I get banned for standing up for the principles that OWS believes in...well so be it. I will pick out a new pseudonym, and start all over again. And unlike one of the people here who shares you beliefs, I will use only one alias, as I do not want to make a mockery of this forum, like the people you protect by your silence.

What you viewed as a slam way back was not. It was a 'miscommunication' that time, and I told you that in a PM. This is not a miscom..... Considering your THREAT of having me banned, this is unequivocally a SLAM on you!

Once again I seriously doubt that you would try to have anyone banned that was trying to turn this movement into election central for the dems, and did so in a vile, disingenuous way.

Nor have you ever said anything to a person who was near/constantly trying to create division here between the people who are close to the heart of this movement , and us.

All of the "nice stories" that you pass off in such a conascending way, were all true, and from the heart. I have shared my personal life, including family on here more than most people in the hopes of reaching out to others. Until now, I have only regretted having done so once. This makes twice.

Where was your voice DK when I let it be known that I lost almost 400 pts. within four days. I knew that I was a victim of a vindictive little man with multiple pseudonyms, ie. You just don't go from a plus 5 for a comment that is not offensive in any way... into the negative territory overnight without some shenanigans going on. All over this forum good non-incendiary comments of mine, and people who agreed with me were batted down in droves. Where were you DK?

You chastize me for not coming uo with any ideas, but where was your voice when Factsy made a mockery out of my Salmon and Gold thread? Those were important issues to me that I wanted to have addressed on here. Where were you DK?

You like to think of yourself as the leader (obviously) of this forum, but where were you DK when Factsy put up that malicious thread on me? Silence from a person who considers himself the leader of this forum can be the same as being complicit, DK.

Contrast that to back in May when you were the victim of troll attacks for your partisanship. You, and others on here were losing hundreds, maybe thousands of points. Who never chimed in with them on their deleterious attacks on you for your partisanship? Who sent you, and others on here several PMs telling you that he did not like what they were doing to you, despite agreeing with them that this forum should not turn into a partisan playground? Who 'promised' you (and carried through with that promise) that he would vote you up, and them down because of their maliciousness alone? THAT WAS ME DK who stood up for you....despite our differences. I guess you have forgotten all this. Could I have done more so that your voice wasn't silenced? Yes, I could have, and should have, and I have regretted not having done so, until now that is.

Fighting goes on here every day on this forum, you included. You would be hard-pressed to find anywhere here where I used profanity though. But yet you give a pass to those who use it if you agree with them. Sounds a bit hypocritical to me. Doesn't it to you?

In fact DK....doesn't all your actions, or mostly inactions come across as being a bit hypocritical?

So go for it DK...get me banned. I have dealt with people who are hypocrites, and have no loyalties all my life. So I am used to people like you.

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (28274) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

I would suggest that you promote street activities and leave those who are pushing a voting stratagem alone to do their thing. As long as that stratagem is in support of the people environment society world.

I would suggest that those with a political stratagem leave you and your street protesting activism alone as well if they can not be supportive.

So be supportive or ( bluntly ) butt out.

[-] 0 points by Odin (583) 2 years ago

With all due respect, I will never be supportive of anyone trying to turn Occupy Wall Street into a pro-dem movement! 'Period' too!

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (28274) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Who said I was a leader of this movement?

I am a supporter of all of the Occupy movements.

The movement has no leaders - just participants.


[-] 0 points by Odin (2895) from Island Heights, NJ 6 hours ago

You are not here to address change through politics, rather at the very least you are supporting those who want OWS to become a democratic platform. Hence you have shirked your responsibilities as the supposed leader of this movement. ↥twinkle ↧stinkle permalink

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (28274) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Fine just don't mess with the people addressing change through politics.

Support/promote your own efforts of public protest.

Or - with all due respect I will ask for you to be removed from this forum for being a disruption to positive discourse. This goes for those who are pushing political agendas as well - get along or I will ask for you to be gone.

[-] 0 points by Odin (583) 2 years ago

Do not threaten me DK. I seriously doubt that you would try to ban people with political agendas, as long as they were the same as yours. Anyway, do whatever you have to, in fact I invite you to. On a side note, I think that your massive point total has gone to your head.

I am very protective of this movement because I know some of the people on the front lines who are making the true sacrifices. Those people are the valiant ones in this struggle, not us as much as we would like to think that we are. And now here's my advice to you, either get out in the streets, or if not possible, figure out a way to directly support those people who are, and that includes the initiatives you talk about...but it does not include turning this forum into election central for the dems.

[-] -1 points by Odin (583) 2 years ago

Anyone who he believes that he can stifle a voice on here using his influence with jart, must think of himself as a leader. I will respond to your peace thread, and you may be surprised at the 'ground' that I am willing to give up for the sake of moving forward in a positive direction. I just gotta get a few last licks in before this forum gets mushy. ;:-)

[-] -2 points by Odin (583) 2 years ago

You are not here to address change through politics, rather at the very least you are supporting those who want OWS to become a democratic platform. Hence you have shirked your responsibilities as the supposed leader of this movement.

[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (28274) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Yeah yeah yeah - you tell a lot of nice stories. But you fall short on ideas of what can be done at the next protest. You have slammed me before and I thought it was a miscommunication or a misunderstanding and I gave you the benefit of the doubt. But I am telling you right here and now that if you continue with your attacks your fighting with others that have a different approach then yours? If you continue with discord? I "WILL" do my best to see that you get banned as a detriment to this forum.

OH & BTW? Not a threat - A PROMISE!!!


[-] 1 points by Odin (2890) from Island Heights, NJ 7 minutes ago

Do not threaten me DK. I seriously doubt that you would try to ban people with political agendas, as long as they were the same as yours. Anyway, do whatever you have to, in fact I invite you to. On a side note, I think that your massive point total has gone to your head.

I am very protective of this movement because I know some of the people on the front lines who are making the true sacrifices. Those people are the valiant ones in this struggle, not us as much as we would like to think that we are. And now here's my advice to you, either get out in the streets, or if not possible, figure out a way to directly support those people who are, and that includes the initiatives you talk about...but it does not include turning this forum into election central for the dems. ↥twinkle ↧stinkle permalink | Mod: ban comments threads admin edit remove

[-] -1 points by Odin (583) 2 years ago

Please DK, carry through with your threat/promise to get me banned from here. Go for it DK! Use whatever influence you have with jart, and go for it.

If I get banned for standing up for the principles that OWS believes in...well so be it. I will pick out a new pseudonym, and start all over again. And unlike one of the people here who shares you beliefs, I will use only one alias, as I do not want to make a mockery of this forum, like the people you protect by your silence.

What you viewed as a slam way back was not. It was a 'miscommunication' that time, and I told you that in a PM. This is not a miscommunication. Considering your THREAT of having me banned, this is unequivocally a SLAM on you!

Once again I seriously doubt that you would try to have anyone banned that was trying to turn this movement into election central for the dems, and did so in a vile, disingenuous way.

Nor have you ever said anything to a person who was near/constantly trying to create division here between the people who are close to the heart of this movement , and us.

All of the "nice stories" that you pass off in such a conascending way, were all true, and from the heart. I have shared my personal life, including family on here more than most people in the hopes of reaching out to others. Until now, I have only regretted having done so once. This makes twice.

Where was your voice DK when I let it be known that I lost almost 400 pts. within four days. I knew that I was a victim of a vindictive little man with multiple pseudonyms, ie. You just don't go from a plus 5 for a comment that is not offensive in any way... into the negative territory overnight without some shenanigans going on. All over this forum good non-incendiary comments of mine, and people who agreed with me were batted down in droves. Where were you DK?

You chastize me for not coming up with any ideas, but where was your voice when Factsy made a mockery out of my Salmon and Gold thread, and opportunistically saw it as a place where he could carry out his vindictiveness? Those were important issues to me that I wanted to have addressed on here. Where were you DK?

You like to think of yourself as the leader (obviously) of this forum, but where were you DK when Factsy put up that malicious thread on me? Silence from a person who considers himself the leader of this forum can be the same as being complicit, DK.

Contrast that to back in May when you were the victim of troll attacks for your partisanship. You, and others on here were losing hundreds, maybe thousands of points. Who never chimed in with them on their deleterious attacks on you for your partisanship? Who sent you, and others on here several PMs telling you that he did not like what they were doing to you, despite agreeing with them that this forum should not turn into a partisan playground? Who 'promised' you (and carried through with that promise) that he would vote you up, and them down because of their maliciousness alone?.......THAT WAS ME DK WHO STOOD UP FOR YOU....despite our differences. I guess you have forgotten all this. Could I have done more so that your voice wasn't silenced? Yes, I could have, and should have, and I have regretted not having done so, until now that is.

Fighting goes on here every day on this forum, you included. You would be hard-pressed to find anywhere here where I used profanity though. But yet you give a pass to those who use it if you agree with them. Sounds a bit hypocritical to me. Doesn't it to you?

In fact DK....doesn't all your actions, or mostly inactions come across as being a bit hypocritical?

So go for it DK...get me banned. Like most people here, I have dealt with people who are hypocrites, and have no loyalties all my life. So I am used to this kind of thing.

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

Don't let war mongering repubs steal the election

[-] 2 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

Obama has to yet call a cease fire

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

Ended Bushs illegal oil war in Iraq.

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[-] 0 points by kaiserw (211) 2 years ago

Yea, sure, there's a right wing, but most of them sleeping zombies. But you can wake them up! Demonstrate to them how both parties are the same, and they are being used as tools in their own oppression! It's hard work, but it must be done. The alternative will be highly unpleasant.

[-] 4 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

But Romney/Ryan wouldsteal from the 99% & give to the 1%.

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

The parties are vastly different.

Elect progressives! Vote out pro Norquist ant Buffet rule republicans.

[-] 0 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

the Buffet tax 30% 0n a million or more

is not near the level income tax on the top bracket has been in the past

[-] 2 points by kaiserw (211) 2 years ago

Now, I think taxes are immoral from the start, it's state violence against individuals, but i digress.

If a nation (or state) has taxes, the rates aren't proportional to revenue, Christine Rohmer (one of Obama's economic advisers that quit has done studies on this very fact). There was a 90% bracket established by FDR, but in the US, tax revenue has never exceeded 22% of GDP.

This has some problems, because now the GDP number is cooked by the gov to make it look good, so there will be some downside inconsistencies. But, Net, revenues in the current GDP are about 2.4 - 2.6 T / year. You could try to goose it a little bit, but probably no more than 1 -2% tops. We're running a 1.6T deficit, that has to stop. The spending has to stop, this was discussed in the bipartisan commission from Obama, but nobody has the balls to deal with it, and it's probably too late at this point anyway to avoid a crash.

On top of that, being in a global economy, if you raise taxes in one country past the norm, you risk people and companies moving out of the country to a lower tax jurisdiction. This happens with states, and it's happening now, and has been for 30 years to California, and they're about to feel the final consequences shortly (1-2 years).

[-] 0 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

what about land ownership ?

if someone owns property, should they charge rent?

[-] 2 points by kaiserw (211) 2 years ago

That's property rights, very different. Read Frederic Bastiat's "The Law" (frenchman) first published in 1850, it's about 55 pages, quick read, eloquently written, you can find it online in pdf or html free. It's classic philosophy of the role of law, targeted at the time at the political class in france, though it's not distracting. It's a good read, and I'm getting tired. Sorry

[-] 0 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

so if the government owned the land, taxes would be ok

[-] 2 points by kaiserw (211) 2 years ago

You can have problems such as tragedy of the commons, though in a small scale it can work.

You have to understand I'm writing my own opinion here combined with what has been proven to work not just my philosophy. Small scale systems, you can get away with alot. Holland, other small countries, you can push the limits alot more and not break things. If power is concentrated at local levels (as opposed to national / high scale systems), it's more stable, it also helps (stability wise - trust issues) if you have a homogenous society (schneier - Liars and outliers)

[-] 2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

Thats right. very good. Does that mean we shouldn't impose it? Are you against it? I support it as a 1st step to a 90% tax rate on icome over $1 million.

[-] 0 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

gotta start somewhere

[-] 3 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

So you don't support taxing the 1% more?

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

I support taxing the 1% more

[-] 2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

We are in agreement! Mazletov

[-] -1 points by kaiserw (211) 2 years ago

The only ones on the D side that have any integrity are Nader and Kucinich. I don't agree with all of their platform issues, but they are principled people, and I respect that.

On the R side, you have even fewer, you have Ron Paul, that's it... Rand counts as a half person, because he's half evil after endorsing Romney, but he's standing up to the NDAA and domestic surveillance, so that's something... then there's a few liberty candidates that just got elected, and might be promising in the next session, but they're unproven, so we'll see if they can stand up to the corruption.

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

Isn't Ron Paul the one with the racist newsletter?

[-] 1 points by kaiserw (211) 2 years ago

RP is certainly one of the most non-racist people I've ever seen. His newsletter was run by Lew Rockwell, and he still runs a newsletter website. There's a bunch of BS to this day in his daily feed, stuff that I really don't agree with, salesy crap, and other crap, more than half is crap, just gunning for content.

Bottom line, there has been nobody except Kucinich and Nader (Kucinich and Paul are buddies) that have taken the unwavering defense of non-whites to where it needs to be.

The drug war is disproportionately waged against non-whites even though usage is uniform, which has created police violence against the black community and hispanic community. That has been one of Paul's biggest issues for a long time.

The one thing I don't agree with Paul on is his immigration policy. I think we should eliminate the incentives, and open the borders completely. Passports should not be necessary in a free society. What difference is there from a human being born in India, China, etc, or the US other than chance or providence. If we lived in that world where all borders were open, like it was 150 years ago, there would be competition for nations to attract people who want to make their way, like the original immigrants. It's only right to give people a chance.

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

I agree with your immigration ideas. This country will only benefit from broad immigration.

Ron Paul is old and done so I don't think we need to argue about him. Seems more libertarian and I don't lean that way so much.

Kucinich is good. I know he votes 90% with the democrats so that is probably a good measure where our support should go.

[-] 0 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

the democrats are not calling for an end to war

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

But they have reduced the military killing from millions to thousands. That indicates a direction to zero. Real progress. Momentum. they have resisted the pressure to invade Syria, Iran. Ifwe want an end to war clearly we must keep war mongering repubs out and agitate dems to continue the reduction until it is zero

[-] 2 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

killing is unnecessary and wrong

no peace no justice

[-] 2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

Killing is unnecessary and wrong except in self defense, and the defense of the weak, and oppressed.

I think we should use our military (after we cut it 50%) in conjunction with UN and regional orgs to protect people against murderous dictators all over the world.

Maybe like Libya, & Syria.?

No good?

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

no.

[-] 2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

I'm anti war. Not a pacifist. And I do not support dictators who slaughter their own people.

I'm sorry we can't agree.

We can agree on ending the drone strikes though, so that is something.

[-] 0 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

and navy bombs and NATO bombings

[-] 2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

Sure. Stop all the "war on terror" bombings. That is obscene, That is oil war shit. I'm against it. Truly. I am glad to see the reduction from millions killed to thousands. But it is Not enough! must be zero. must be ended! We're goin in the right direction.

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[-] -1 points by funkytown (-374) 2 years ago

The level of idiocy on this site is incredible.

In the 2008 Pres election only some 61% of those eligible voted - we can't even muster a 2/3's majority that CARES - they don't CARE - you can stump all you want, spend billions on media exposure - they don't CARE.

And I don't see any reason why anyone should - we're the idiots - either way, we'll all pay, and the outcome of this election has already been decided - it's just a media circus.

[-] 5 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

Speak for yourself. I ain't no idiot. We can't take back the govt if we listen to people who tell us not to care. Apathy is what the 1% plutocrats want. we must care if we are going to get the 61% up to the 90% we need.

[-] 1 points by MadInMedford (-15) 2 years ago

Who is paying you to post propaganda like that?

Here's the truth:

http://occupywallst.org/forum/one-cannot-be-the-problem-and-solve-the-problem/

[-] 3 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

I speak my opinion without any encouragement from any outside source.

What is it you want me to see on this link you keep attaching. You got something to say. I gather you disagree. With what? what course are you advocating.? Speak up.

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[-] 3 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

I have that bumper sticker. It's a good one. what can we do to start the revolution.? any instructions from bucolic Medford?

[-] -1 points by MadInMedford (-15) 2 years ago

Start by redirecting all resources to replacing the Regime rather than sustaining it. Of course, that will put partisan propagandists like you out of a job...

http://occupywallst.org/forum/one-cannot-be-the-problem-and-solve-the-problem/

[-] 2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

I support progressive solutions to the exploitation created by conservative policies. Is that partisan propaganda? Is that allowed in your revolution? Are we supposed to pretend there is no political spectrum? Make some sense?

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[-] 3 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

The political spectrum is simply a means to illustrate the 2 main approaches to governing peoples. What is false about it?

[-] 1 points by MadInMedford (-15) 2 years ago

The Left/Liberal/Democrat vs Right/Conservative/Republican dichotomy is an artificial split maintained by the ruling elite via political theater and wedge issues to keep the people divided and fighting each other rather than united and fighting them. This is explained in terms even a child can understand here:

http://occupywallst.org/forum/one-cannot-be-the-problem-and-solve-the-problem/

[-] 2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

I read it. thanks for the even a child insult.

But forget the words/labels you mentioned we can replace them with anything you like. There are still 2 approaches to governing people. Whether you choose to believe it or not. If we were starting out as a group of cavemen there would still be 2 approaches.

You either believe:

  • We must help each other and work together to improve the whole society.

Or:

  • We should just take care of ourselves, survival of the fittest. Screw the others if they got a problem.

So, which of the 2 approaches does your revolution embrace?

[-] 0 points by MadInMedford (-15) 2 years ago

A question so ridiculous does not deserve an answer.

http://occupywallst.org/forum/one-cannot-be-the-problem-and-solve-the-problem/

[-] 3 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

Simple maybe but certainly not ridiculous. Your failure to answer I think is simply an effort to deflect from your lack of ideas. You sir are a fraud. Your silence is deafening. You are uncovered!, Unmasked! You have nothing but empty criticisms! There is no substance to you arguments. I have dispatched you as an ignorant. You are dismissed!

[-] 1 points by MadInMedford (-15) 2 years ago

The system is broken and the spectrum is false. Revolution is the only solution:

http://occupywallst.org/forum/one-cannot-be-the-problem-and-solve-the-problem/

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (28274) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Stop spamming your post - go back to it and expand on it - but stop spamming it.

[-] 1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

How will spam cure all that ails us?

Does is cure gout too?

[-] 0 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

Spam always smelled broken to me.

Smells kind of revolting.

How will you make spam smell and taste better for the future?

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (28274) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Can you believe that there are people who actually love spam ( the curious meat byproduct ? ) ?

[-] -2 points by funkytown (-374) 2 years ago

hahahahahaha........ that's funny. Anybody who votes "progressive" is not about taking government back.

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[-] -2 points by funkytown (-374) 2 years ago

You definitely have a way with words; I admire that.

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[-] -1 points by rpc972 (628) from Portland, OR 2 years ago

Hey, this is Class War, we're not supposed to flirt with the enemy! (you had a typo, ft's patronizing you)

Get People REGISTERED and get out the VOTE!!

http://www.gottavote.org/en/?choose-state=true

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[-] -1 points by rpc972 (628) from Portland, OR 2 years ago

"but" - put

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[-] 1 points by rpc972 (628) from Portland, OR 2 years ago

Jeez, UR killing my buzz, man. Here: "...thing two, but them back in the box"

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[-] 0 points by rpc972 (628) from Portland, OR 2 years ago

No, prob, ...and watch the leaps of faith...

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[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (28274) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

LOL

[-] 0 points by rpc972 (628) from Portland, OR 2 years ago
[-] -2 points by funkytown (-374) 2 years ago

If you were truly gifted, as I am, you wouldn't have to pull anything - it's just mind over matter, try it.

[-] 2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

Sure we are. We wanna take it back from the greedy, selfish, conservative 1% plutocrats so we can share the wealth that the 99% created, instead letting the 1% steal it all and hide it in offshore accounts to avoid paying their fair share of taxes.

You stand with those criminals against your own class?

[-] -2 points by funkytown (-374) 2 years ago

I stand alone. It's me against the world, as well it should be, because it's MY world. And I will do with it as I will.

[-] 2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

Cool. You certainly do appear to be in your own little world.

Have fun. Good luck in all your GOOD efforts.

[-] -1 points by funkytown (-374) 2 years ago

I don't want to be be good, I want to be great.

[-] 3 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

Well your certainly grating on us!

[-] -2 points by funkytown (-374) 2 years ago

Listen up, and follow me... how is that two or three individuals of such obviously greater intellect, have chosen a seat in my audience? Miracle of miracles, life is so amazing...

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[-] -2 points by funkytown (-374) 2 years ago

haha... is it my fault if you listen?

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[-] 0 points by richardkentgates (3269) from Fort Walton Beach, FL 2 years ago

Stop being a drama queen. I have caught my fair share of shit for being a liberal who relates to the concerns of republicans. Why? Because the truth serves all of us but in the land of party politics, nobody wants to admit it. Neither the Dems or Reps in Washington are representing us nor are they offering solution that benefit the People. They offer solutions that are a handout to their campaign donors and their own financial interest. This is why it is incumbent on us to take control of the conversation. Not as Dems or Reps but as the 99%.

[-] 3 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

Conversation? is that all you want to take control of? Not the govt? Don't you think we should take the levers of power back from the evil conservative 1% plutocrats? Mr I'm a liberal.

[-] 0 points by richardkentgates (3269) from Fort Walton Beach, FL 2 years ago

You really do underestimate the power of conversation. Right now, both parties use the word "job creator". Lets have a look at how that has effected the psyche of your employer and placed you at a disadvantage.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKCvf8E7V1g

[-] 2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

NO! Got a point? make it. Lets take control of the govt. OWS has already turned the national discussion towards the inequity of the 99% vs the 1%. In regard to Job creators OWS has pushed the correct concept that the middle class American consumer is the job creator. Not the greedy selfish 1% plutocrats sucking up (not tinkling down) all our hard earned wealth and hiding it offshore to avoid paying their fair share in taxes.

Conversation controlled. The govt god damn it.! When you gonna get around to taking that back.?

[-] 0 points by richardkentgates (3269) from Fort Walton Beach, FL 2 years ago

Really? Wall Street is again at record highs while wages continue falling, unemployment is stagnate, and foreclosures in full swing. It does not appear to me that we have control of the conversation yet.

[-] 3 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

You bring up issues that we ARE conversing about. And have been thanks to OWS. Now we must take back the levers of power from the 1% plutocrats who have created the stagnant wages/unemployment, foreclosures and everything else.

[-] 1 points by richardkentgates (3269) from Fort Walton Beach, FL 2 years ago

How? What is your strategy to do that?

[-] 4 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

We must vote out evil conservatives (like Eric Cantor, & Rand Paul etc) and elect good progressives like (Sanders, Elizabeth Warren, Letitia James).

Protest/pressure all pols to pass progressive policies to undo the damage of the conservative 1% plutocrats.

Whats you plan? More criticism of my plan? LOL

[-] 1 points by richardkentgates (3269) from Fort Walton Beach, FL 2 years ago

SO, you ostracize the republicans and call them racist pieces of shit. That will get them to vote your way? Aside from that being utterly recockuless, it's the same "might is right" that Occupy has been speaking out against. If you are so concerned with how people vote, maybe they need information that would help them see what you see then that would effect their vote. Again, it's about the conversation.

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

And again you offer more criticism of my methods. I don't call anyone names. My PM with you notwithstanding. I simply offer solutions (in my opinion) to the problems we face (in my opinion). All 99% whatever their political persuasion can take it or leave it. Progressive solutions! Elect progressives to solve the catastrophy of conservative policies (vote out conservatives) Very simple.

And by the way OWS leadership may not prefer to engage the political process but as anarchists they must certainly embrace progressive solutions. That is what anarchism is no?

What's your plan? Besides criticizing my methods, me, and my plan.

[-] 0 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

The only problem with your plan is that both partie were bought out a long long time ago. No matter what you do, they wont serve you.

Other than that, its a great plan. I think the last time it worked (in the early 1900's) everyone was really happy with the results.

[-] 2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

please the early 1900's were part of the gilded age many unhappy people. many bought off politicians.

"no matter what you do, they won't serve you" I think you have violated the 2nd internet disruption list.

There is hope! We must try. We cannot give up. We must attempt to improve the lives of the 99% by electing good politicians, voting out bad ones. !st and foremost we must agitate for money out of politics. Move to amend.

[-] 0 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

They won't serve me?

Yeah, I know. They keep serving the (R)epelican'ts.

You keep not seeing that.

Strange indeed.

[-] -2 points by ivian (-60) 2 years ago

you are one highly confused individual.

[-] 0 points by funkytown (-374) 2 years ago

Yea, it's not about pomp and 'stance, or the standard prescribed political opiates; it's about moving forward, some positive direction.

[-] 0 points by richardkentgates (3269) from Fort Walton Beach, FL 2 years ago

Agreed.

[-] 1 points by rpc972 (628) from Portland, OR 2 years ago

So then why are you complaining? If failure and doom are a forgone conclusion with no hope of... hope, what is your reason for replying? It sounds like an advocacy for hopelessness!

People, these jokers never quit!!

Get People REGISTERED and get out the VOTE!!

http://www.gottavote.org/en/?choose-state=true

[-] -2 points by funkytown (-374) 2 years ago

Why am I complaining? What's the source on your complaint, why do you complain of my complaint?

Listen, it doesn't matter what you do for these people - get them their IDs, sign them up for social services, drive them to the grocery store, drive them to their court dates... find their baby's daddy and make him pay - it doesn't matter, they don't CARE. They're not going to vote anyway.

Listening to Ryan in Iowa, cool dude. I think I like him.

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[-] -2 points by funkytown (-374) 2 years ago

He IS cool; I like him. Hey, listen... this is the last go-around for us; the President of 2016 is going to be a Female because I'm tired of all this nonsensical gibberish; only to a female will the male ego in civility ever defer; she's not going to be Left and she's not going to be Right, she will be Centrist - it's the new Cool - and we will defer to her for wisdom of direction. She shall rule for Forever and a Day. And so it is, I have ruled, and do hereby faithfully decree, this 17th Day of August... yadah, yadah, etc. And I'll see you - and raise you one - there.

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[-] -2 points by funkytown (-374) 2 years ago

That's the difference, Damocles... The cards are as I left them and I do know the rules of the game. You wallow bravely but your hour of indecisiveness grows short.

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[-] -1 points by funkytown (-374) 2 years ago

Actually the capitalism in me had suggested that some time ago, T shirts... there was tremendous opportunity and if this "movement" serves to inform culture, that window will be open for some time.

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[-] 0 points by funkytown (-374) 2 years ago

I prefer to think of it as helping others while you help yourself. Symbolism galvanizes, it's actually an energy enhancer.

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[-] -1 points by funkytown (-374) 2 years ago

Unlike you I'm not politically inspired... I actually DO the things I mention in that post; I am familiar with these subjects. I want honesty, not patented convenient lies to prop up your political pulpit. Because your lies do not address the problems and they are problems that we MUST address.

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[-] -1 points by funkytown (-374) 2 years ago

I'm not the hangman; I'm the gatekeeper, the ticket man, the sign painter.

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[-] 0 points by funkytown (-374) 2 years ago

You focus on trivia, Z... some must care, others in truth must dare... true, the individual often needs our help; this might not be necessary if we could cure the disease. By the year 2100, which is only two generations away, our population will be what, 8 or 900 million? It's going to require a greater civility; we have to find the cure.

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[-] -1 points by funkytown (-374) 2 years ago

By that time nuclear will be obsolete; we will no longer employ weapons of mass destruction, simply because there is a need to preserve those resources we wish to freely acquire. The future holds both a greater internal civility and a much more lethal foreign policy. There is no other possibility. Maybe you should pull both ears this time, simultaneously.

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[-] 2 points by richardkentgates (3269) from Fort Walton Beach, FL 2 years ago

His prediction is one made by academics the world around. This is not subversive or shocking. Killing the messenger is a failed practice. Spend more time figuring out how we take control of the conversation or this globally accepted truth will come to fruition. I don't see anything in the tactics of most people on this forum that would challenge this prediction of our future. Don't like, change it. To do that, you have to control the conversation.

[-] 0 points by funkytown (-374) 2 years ago

Yea I'll buy some of that. And yes I have considered other possibilities - they are all false.

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[-] -1 points by funkytown (-374) 2 years ago

You're so out of touch.

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[-] -1 points by funkytown (-374) 2 years ago

Ok, so how 'bout "Brains" by Voltaire?

Listen, it's not your brain, let alone your collective brain.

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[-] -1 points by funkytown (-374) 2 years ago

A linguistic chameleon? Chameleon? or Orwellian Machiavellian?

Music is the language of the primitive soul, the precognitive psyche. And as such, albeit some tonal deviation, it is a universal language. Just saying, but how?

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[-] 0 points by funkytown (-374) 2 years ago

You used the word trust not I; implicit is the possibility of distrust - are they not then competitive creatures, concerned that the other might take undue advantage? Trust is only necessary when two unfamiliar beings negotiate uncertain agreement of some perceived shared aspiration.

I am a computer, yes - trust me - have you never heard the song, Boten Anna?

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[-] 0 points by funkytown (-374) 2 years ago

Trust, in my mind, is but an alliance of two competitive beings with some common aspiration; you here recognize the coexistence of factions. It's not just distrust that I am concerned about but an actual struggle for resources that will likely devolve along prescribed lines as opposing factions.

The new religion of increased civility, propped up by illusion, is but delusion. And I think the seeds of distrust were sewn long ago.

You're first paragraph though is spot -on.

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[-] 2 points by rpc972 (628) from Portland, OR 2 years ago

Cuz I have high hopes.

I know Lie'n-Ryan is a fraudulent, Koch-sucking POS!

And if we thought the Bush-Cheney Laissez Faire boondoggle heist was bad, a Twit-Lie'n administration would be a Citizens United secret campaign donation worse. So, I'm not cool with that.

These jokers aren't quitting, People! That's why we have to:

Get People REGISTERED and get out the VOTE!!

http://www.gottavote.org/en/?choose-state=true

[-] 1 points by richardkentgates (3269) from Fort Walton Beach, FL 2 years ago

Exactly. So you have addressed the problems in the other end of the spectrum. Aside from the racial charge of your comment, the newest generation just doesn't give a fuck. Think about why. Their parents work their ass to the bone to scrape by and that paycheck is worth less day by day, people on TV openly talking shit about them, and they're forced to deal with the system every day that is filled with fat, lazy, lethargic, redneck grandmothers and a few dirty old white guys that don't fit anywhere else in society. Sure, lots of factors there would give you the impression the system is worth participating in or saving.

[-] -2 points by funkytown (-374) 2 years ago

No no no... it's not just the newest generation - their parents didn't give a fuck, either.

[-] 0 points by richardkentgates (3269) from Fort Walton Beach, FL 2 years ago

But in your writing, you don't consider the environment they live in that is demoralizing and uninspired. Their only look to the outside world being thrue the cable and we both know that TV these days worships stupid and ostracizes intellect. Americans need to learn to be their brothers keeper and work on bringing these people in from the cold. If we can't or won't, we have no right to complain about the disenfranchisement that we continue to exacerbate with our own angst and laziness.

[-] -1 points by funkytown (-374) 2 years ago

I am very well aware of the effect of environment on children - we must wake up the parents; someone needs to slap some responsibility into these people. Simply saying, oh you poor disadvantaged creature doesn't cut it. I am my brother's keeper; the difference is that I play to win.

[-] 0 points by richardkentgates (3269) from Fort Walton Beach, FL 2 years ago

I think your mind would be in the right place to address this if you could remove the win loss scenario from your logic. Win and loose only applies in a predatory environment and games. This isn't a game nor are we here to prey on anyone. We are here to end the predatory environment.

[-] -1 points by funkytown (-374) 2 years ago

I can't remove the win loss because I don't feel that "demoralizing" and "uninspired" is a good choice of words - it's dehumanizing to the point of decimation - and we must succeed. No issue is too sensitive, the mere fear of offense pales in comparison to failure. This is the real war on drugs; prison is but a symptom.

[-] 0 points by richardkentgates (3269) from Fort Walton Beach, FL 2 years ago

Well said.

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[-] 0 points by richardkentgates (3269) from Fort Walton Beach, FL 2 years ago

Comon now. You know I'm as stubborn as they come and if opinions are ass holes I'm all ass.

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[-] 0 points by richardkentgates (3269) from Fort Walton Beach, FL 2 years ago

Zen, I have met people with really really far out ideas and they believe every inch of it. It's because they have been subjected to it for sometimes years unchallenged.

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[-] 0 points by funkytown (-374) 2 years ago

The whiteboy who lands in foster care does not blame the drug dealer on the corner; he blames his mother; why do you suppose that is? Yet we are not permitted to confront her - we reassign the blame, and perhaps rightfully so if she herself is a victim, but still... at some point we must initiate this conversation.

[+] -5 points by Odin (583) 2 years ago

Yes the "right wing" is out to get us, and the 'left wing' is pretending to be our saviors.

[-] 1 points by rpc972 (628) from Portland, OR 2 years ago

And you are pretending not to be a RepubliCon plant!

The jokers never stop, people,

Get People REGISTERED and get out the VOTE!!

http://www.gottavote.org/en/?choose-state=true

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[+] -5 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

The only fraud in the voting system is that millions of people troll to the polls and vote for pre paid for, bought off professional politicians.

Thats the fraud. All this bullshit the Republicans keep bringing up with this shit is nonsense. There is no fraud, its not going to really keep anyone from voting. Its just more media hoopla to keep everyone divided and not going to the deeper problems of this country.

[-] 3 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

Oh so we shouldn't let the media get us excited about this?

It's not really going to suppress any votes?

[+] -5 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

No, not really, there are extremely few people who dont have ID's.

The poorer you are, the more likely you have one because you need one for government subsidies.

ITs a none issue, really. there isnt any fraud to begin with, and everyone has an ID. Its just another media hoopla meant to divide and distract. A win-win for the D/R scam again.

[-] -1 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

Genreally speaking, anyone under indictment should probably not be taken too seriously.

Does it happen? Yes, ofcourse it does. The black community almost always goes for Dems. Its a lock. The Dem party doesnt have to do anything to get it, just some good campaign speeches.

[-] 4 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

So we don't have to worry about republican efforts to suppress the black vote.?

[-] 0 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

It's an issue, but I have yet to know anyone who doesnt have an ID. Even the homeless guys who help us a few of the jobsites have IDs.

Like I've said before, the poorer you are, the more you need that ID, because the more you are reliant on gov assistance.

The vote is suppressed in so many other ways that are much more impactful than what is currently going on. As I've stated before, I think that the fact that felons are not allowed to vote is totally unfair, taxation with no representation. And it is a MUCH bigger number than the people who want to vote in teh upcoming election but for some strange reason dont have an ID.

[-] 4 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

I don't think the intelligent people who have determined that the suppressed votes are significant numbers, checked with your experience. Believe it or not neither my, nor your experience is relevant. It ain't all about you. And certainly you're not gonna speak for the poor are you?

Republicans can't win without cheating because :

  • They have mounted an attack on womens rights,

  • They continue to move against immigrants,

  • They clearly hate LGBT Americans,

  • They have plans to take away Social Security, & Medicare,

  • They've hated African Americans for decades,

  • And are siding with banks on student loan services and against young people on the recent interest rate increase, as well as Pell grant expansion.

This is why they are kicking & screaming to suppress as many votes as possible. They even have dishonest plants trying to convince peoplethat there is nothing to worry about with these voter suppression efforts. Imagine that.

[-] -2 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

I'll speak for the poor, I've been there. I still work in low income areas directly with the people. Even the homeless that give us a hand with projects have their gov ID. It's simply not going to affect nearly the amount of people that other rules and regulations will. But it's the lastest thing in the news, so the sheep get all roughled up about it.

I've done voter registrations. Thats why my biggest problem with the stuff they passed in Fl is that they trimmed the amount of time registers have to hand i their forms from two weeks to three days. Not the end of the world by any means, but just more pointless rules and regulations.

[-] 5 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

The league of women voters in fl think it's a big deal. You know better than them? They've been registering voters for 70 years. Are they sheep too? Maybe your the only non sheep? NOT! Your still covering, and playing down this republican effort to suppress the vote. It's real. It's an attempt to steal another election and you are serving these cheaters by playing it down. You are unmasked again!. Republican plant.!

[-] -2 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

The league of voters is pissed about the registration issues that I just talked about and agree its nonsense.

You have a very keen ability to take someone's post and get your establishment, divisive views in the reply no matter what.

[-] 5 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

Well? They think the fl attempts at suppressing the vote are a serious matter. ARE they Sheep?

Stop playing down this serious attempt to violate our rights to perpetrate another theft of power by your republicans.

[-] 0 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

They have a very specific role. Their role is NOT worrying about the bankster takeover, the bipartisan screwings, wage stagnation, inflation, etc. Its about voting, so yes, its a big deal to them. Thats their field. I attended a rally with quite a few of them, in support. I also pointed out that they were pandering to Bill Nelson who had just signed NDAA in the Senate to help protect their rights, which makes no sense at all. The vast majority appreciated me saying this.

When this requiement for ID is running WAY MORE than the LIBOR scandal, you know the media is playing you.

[-] 4 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

Voting is hugely important. LIBOR has been underplayed that is true, and for the reasons you suggest as well. It is criminal. Of course you know that the banks are the 1% plutocrats that control the world and the media. So you are smart enough to realize why this happens. And of course despite their best efforts we do know about it. Regardless of the media blackout, we know. So now it is up to us to protest and get action. We must certainly get our govt back from those 1% plutocrats by registering as many people as possible and voting out the evil 1% conservatives, and electing the good progressives. So vote suppression by the 1% conservatives IS hugely important. Your playing it down serves the 1% conservative plutocrats.

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[+] -4 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

If you had a fuckin clue you would be able to look past what hte media stories are, and see the amount of BULLSHIT they do simply to keep themselves busy.

Its working like a fuckin charm too. Very sad.

[-] 4 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

Republicans are desperate to keep any non white males from voting. That ain't MSM. That's my determination.

As well as the opinion that you are a dishonest republican piece of shit.

[+] -5 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

So you think minorities dont have ID's? That sounds pretty fuckin racist to me.

Once again, you are putting people in a box- this time that minorities dont have ID's for some reason. Nice job. Man you are hack. You should go work for FOX or CNN, they fuckin love this idiotic shit.

[-] 3 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

What? Make some sense.

You want us to ignore this right wing effort to keep dems from voting 'cause you're a right wing shill!

lying piece of shit

[+] -4 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

Um, actually Im not right wing, Im sorry your level of reasoning keeps you in such simple boxes. But try to not put everyone else in your little two box world. It destroys change.

You can address it. I did. I went and voiced my opinion in Tampa on it. And made sure to notice everyone that slimeball Nelson voted for NDAA as well.

I dont expect you to understand this stuff, ok. But Im going to keep trying, because I konw the main thing holding this country back is ignorance.

[-] 4 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

Only a right wing shill would suggest that the repubs are not trying to keep dems from voting. Only a lying piece of shit would try to comvince not to worry about it.

right wing shill! War mongering piece of shit!

[-] -3 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

They think they are trying, their whole entire base is on board it too. They think theres all this fraud.

There isnt.

And asking for IDs isnt going to get less people voting, or stop any fraud....that wasnt occuring to begin with.

Its just more typical R vs L nonsense that achices nothing, will change nothing, but keeps the masses engaged.

Imagine if everyone came together and realized how bad we are getting fucked? Shit would change REAL quick.

And you've already stated you are more pro war than I. So what does that make you? I bet you voted for Bush, didnt you?

[-] 4 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

Your repub paymasters know there is NO fraud! LMFAO. They're just trying to keep dems from voting.

You know it's true & pretend it's fake to cover for your repubs paymasters & pathetically attempt to convince people here to ignore it so repubs can do it without interference.

Lying piece of shit. War mongering fucker

[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (28274) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Unless you just want the exercise - you may as well stop responding to hchc. He does not live in reality - and is feeding off of your comments.

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[-] -3 points by gnomunny (6587) from St Louis, MO 2 years ago

You can't build a house without a hammer, hc, and that's about as cryptic as I can get in regards to talking sense to these people.

[-] -3 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

Im going to be speaking at the protest stage during the RNC. I'll play it., and they can see where my views are.

And they can also see that 99% of the people are fuckin tired of all this nonsense as well.

Perhaps that video will be the hammer to change them once and for all.

We spent 3.5 Trillion dollars this past year. We can afford a few million for public funded elections. It would shrink that trillion down.

[-] -3 points by gnomunny (6587) from St Louis, MO 2 years ago

I'm looking forward to that video. Keep us posted.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (28274) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Republicans are always trying to take away minority and the poor votes.

They have a real campaign going right now as they are afraid that they will lose in their own states if they don't.

Wake-up Eeyore.

[+] -4 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

I right here in teh middle of it. Its a big fuckin joke. Most of the Dems speaking out against it havent been to a low income neighborhood in years. They have no clue what they are talking about.

Present Ids, or dont. If there is fraud, there will be fraud. The poorer you are, the more you need your ID. I have yet to meet a single person who doesnt. Even during registration drives.

You can go off the TV all you want. Both sides of this argument think it sounds reasonable.

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (28274) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

They are in many cases asking for several types of ID including a birth certificate to get the state ID that would let them vote. This is going on in PA. The Fed government is concerned enough with Florida that they are looking into the voters that have been purged to date.

And no both sides do not think it is reasonable - just the repubs want it.

[+] -4 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

No Im saying that both sides think that the reasons to back it/protest it are reasonable.

I side with the Dems on this one. But I just dont see it being that big of a deal either way. I mean, who doesnt have an ID OR a birth certificate? Its certainly not the poor, as reasons I stated earlier.

In my opinion the real crime with our current voting laws is not letting felons vote. To me that is totally unacceptable, on multiple levels, whether you are a humanitarian or constituionalist.

But no one wants to talk about the real issue. That rule prevents WAY more from voting.

[-] -1 points by richardkentgates (3269) from Fort Walton Beach, FL 2 years ago

Indeed. A lifetime loss of rights is not what you need when you are pressuring someone to tighten up and be a constructive participant of society. You need to opposite, you need every door to succeeding in that mission to be open wide. I think they call it, insensitive.

[+] -4 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

No one ever wants to talk about this though.

[-] 0 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

voting should be done publicly

then we would only have to trust each other

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

Defeat RW extremists.

I voted 3rd party down the line!

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 1 year ago

i voted for democats besides obama

i was only given 2 choices for senate and representive

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

It is over. We must focus on remaking thesystem, from the ground up, horizontally, w/ direct democracy. Do you know how that is progressing?

We must fight fpr the change that will help 3rd parties succeed. (movetoamend, nationalpopularvote, opendebates)

And we must agitate all pols for change the benefits the 99%.

The election is over! the 99% lost!