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Forum Post: Taking a Chance, The History of Liberalism, The Enlightenment, & where we go now that we are sliding back, Modern Fascism

Posted 1 year ago on June 26, 2013, 12:46 a.m. EST by Middleaged (5140)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

As usual I am the last to know in my peer group... But maybe not. The Industry I worked in uses the same phases I hear Matt Taibbi quoting for Ratings Agencies as they pressured Analysts to change the Ratings on Financial Assets prior to the 2008 Financial Crisis. There are many propaganda, indoctrination, Public Relations,... phrases that get repeated and propagated in both government & Private Industry. And it seems to come from the Bankers. I mean I don't know if all my peers understand that they are propagating the myths & propaganda.

Thanks, Shadz, by Matt Taibbi : http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article35406.htm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Enlightenment
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism

Liberalism first became a distinct political movement during the Age of Enlightenment, when it became popular among philosophers and economists in the Western world. Liberalism rejected the notions, common at the time, of hereditary privilege, state religion, absolute monarchy, and the Divine Right of Kings.

Liberalism is the Political Movement that formed the USA. It also lead Nations to Revolution that threw off the Corrupt Monarchies and the age of unreasonableness (to enter the age of enlightenment).

We are all Liberals. Wikipedia states that conservatives actually supported the foundational ideas of monarchies, heredity (for Lordships, Power, Land & Rights), established state religions, ... I suppose Fiefdoms, Manors, Serfs as well.

Liberalism threw off the Monarchies. Liberalism brought in the ideas of Revolutions, Freedom, Equality, Liberty, Free trade, freedom of Religion. The first step was Classical Liberalism which is closer to Milton Friedman and Neoliberal Economics. But soon after we had Social Liberalism which included ideas that government should help relieve poverty, help with education, help with social security and help with health care

Most of our Philosophy comes from Europe. I see notes that Asia has not really followed our Western Ideas of Liberalsims that well.

So here we are: http://occupywallst.org/forum/what-do-bosnia-bulgaria-and-brazil-have-common/

Demonstrations in Egypt, Bulgaria, Czech Republic, Turkey, Ireland, UK, Spain, Germany, Italy, Greece, Cyprus, Portugal, Switzerland, Brussels, Sweden, Iceland, New York City, Seattle, Atlanta, Philadelphia, ... Brazil, Ecuador, Chili, Argentina, Venezuela...

We are still Fighting the Revolution for Freedom against the Monarchies, Oligarchies, Elites, Coporations, and Bankers. It is a fight against Human Corruption and Human Tyranny.

There is no Question about it. The GINI Coefficient, the Wage Gap, the Decapitalization of the USA, the Outsourcing of Jobs, the Money transferred to Big Corporate Lobbyist, Bail outs to Wall Street Investment Banks in a supposedly capitalist system, the Government in action to repair the Economy & Jobs, Government parties in Washington DC every Day while people don't work, face foreclosure, and take on Debt to live, to work, and to attend Job Training, and of course the collapse of the Retirement Savings, 401Ks, Pension Funds, and Retirement Funds. All the while the savings of people in banks makes no interest in the down economy.

But you knew all that already....

Here are some links on Liberalism:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_liberalism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Individualism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Individualism#Political_individualism

Individualists are chiefly concerned with protecting individual autonomy against obligations imposed by social institutions (such as the state or religious morality). For L. Susan Brown "Liberalism and anarchism are two political philosophies that are fundamentally concerned with individual freedom yet differ from one another in very distinct ways. Anarchism shares with liberalism a radical commitment to individual freedom while rejecting liberalism's competitive property relations."[4]

Liberalism (from the Latin liberalis, "of freedom; worthy of a free man, gentlemanlike, courteous, generous")[18] is the belief in the importance of individual freedom. This belief is widely accepted in the United States, Europe, Australia and other Western nations, and was recognized as an important value by many Western philosophers throughout history, in particular since the Enlightenment. It is often rejected by collectivist, Islamic, or confucian societies in Asia or the Middle East (though Taoists were and are known to be individualists).[19] The Roman Emperor Marcus Aurelius wrote praising "the idea of a polity administered with regard to equal rights and equal freedom of speech, and the idea of a kingly government which respects most of all the freedom of the governed".[20]

Modern liberalism has its roots in the Age of Enlightenment and rejects many foundational assumptions that dominated most earlier theories of government, such as the Divine Right of Kings, hereditary status, and established religion. John Locke is often credited with the philosophical foundations of classical liberalism. He wrote "no one ought to harm another in his life, health, liberty, or possessions."[21]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humanism

Humanism is a group of philosophies and ethical perspectives which emphasize the value and agency of human beings, individually and collectively, and generally prefers individual thought and evidence (rationalism, empiricism) over established doctrine or faith (fideism).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-actualization
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-determination

I think it is worth while pointing out that we don't want to fight each other, we don't want to allow the MSM to Separate us or Divide us. It appears that Monarchs have set out to divide us all along. And it appears that our Government & Media not only try to Dumb Us Down, To Keep International News from Us, To Keep History from Us, to Hide the Truth About the Deaths of JFK, RFK, & MLK, but also want to keep us from Talking to Activists in Other Nations..... And they want to hide the Transfer of Tax Dollars & Jobs to the Military, Security & Intelligence Agencies.... and they want to hide the King-Like Wealth and Opulence of Congressmen in Washington DC.

Your Manufacturing Jobs are gone or at least we need 20 Million of them back... but what you got was low paying jobs in the service industry ... while the Right Wing and Wealthy Built a Police State and in some cases doubled the Jobs from 2001.

So taking a Chance.... We all have to Practice Transparency, Practice Glasnost, Practice Humanism, and Tell people that are full of Rage that they are wrong and they are not wanted. We have to get Rid of Government Secrecy, the CIA, DHS, and all these Intelligence Agencies. After all the CIA has been caught time and again interfering with the "Right to Self Determination" of Sovereign Nations... all over the globe from the 1950s... till the Afghanistan War and Iraqi War... and the War on Terrorism. And what you see in front of you Is a transfer of Tax dollars to the US Security Apparatus and Industry while normal manufacturing jobs, Main Street Jobs have been Decapitalized.

The lesson is in History about Sectarianism or you could look at Secularism in "The Troubles" or Balkanization in Europe. As I see it the USA must break up at some point. But we would have more power as a people if we acted as a "Love Generation" in Humanism.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sectarianism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secularization
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Troubles#1609.E2.80.931912
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Ireland

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Age_of_Reason

If you notice... Conservitive have created a Meme that Liberalism means all kinds of things that it doesn't mean. Conservitives and Republicans dis Liberals, but don't know that the US Revolution was based on this Idea. Liberalism is the throwing off of the Tyrants and Monarchs.

Now the Economic Policies are Neoliberals like Milton Freidman on Steroids. Politics is all Status Quo. President Obama is following Utilitarianism in that he says we are doing the best for everyone... but meaning we will not change anything. Barak Obama has only added to the Risk to the US union, US Foreign Policy, Privacy, Individual Rights, and clearly has follow the policy of Bankers and Right Wing Nut Jobs.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_liberalism#Utilitarianism

While this could be interpreted as a justification for state action to reduce poverty, it was used by classical liberals to justify inaction with the argument that the net benefit to all individuals would be higher.[62]

Check out Max Keiser 462 ... He calls for Support for Capitalism since we have Crony Capitalism with a bunch of Cheaters that don't think they can make it without Cheating, Fixing the Markets, Fixing Libor, Fixing the Price of Gold & Silver, Fixing the ISDAfix,... We don't have free markets as he always says. If we had Liberalism, Social Liberalism with "True Capitalism" and with Regulations with Regulators to Enforce the Regulations and with Uncorrupt Court Systems to Try and Convict the Fraudsters ... then we would have "Freedom and Liberty".

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/blogs/taibblog/everything-is-rigged-continued-european-commission-raids-oil-companies-in-price-fixing-probe-20130515

Wikipedia makes the point that Liberalism faced challenges in the 20th Century from Communism and Fascism. I think Wikipedia mistakenly states that Liberalism won... I think that we have Modern Fascism.

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[-] 4 points by shadz66 (18322) 1 year ago

A great post and resource - many thanx 'Ma' & further to which I append :

And in antidote and hope :

spero meliora ...

[-] 3 points by Middleaged (5140) 1 year ago

A great selection, and I will be able to find it if I get Ejected from the Forum... I also like the links I see on Truthout about the NSA Leak. So much to see and read.

RT has a piece on Ecuador's Correa, President Correa, has rejected the US Government's Blatant "Power Play",.. and continued attempt to control, dominate, manipulate, and deceive other countries and US Citizens.

Karen Hudes has great Videos... I heard her on Coast2CoastAM in a 2 hour interview last month. They usually put up videos of interview that are searchable. Nice. There was a good article on her as well last month from a reputable source.

[-] 3 points by shadz66 (18322) 1 year ago

Solidarity 'Ma' & the Karen Hudes story is an important linkage, ergo :

''The work of Alan Greenspan and other unethical economists has cost us trillions of dollars, millions of jobs and endless suffering ... Alan Greenspan had no excuse for assuming fraud out of existence, and his exceptionally immoral position on fraud and regulation proved catastrophic to America and much of the world. We cannot afford the price, measured in many trillions of dollars, over 10 million jobs, and endless suffering, of unethical economists.''

'caveat banksterii' - et, radix omnium malorum est cupiditas ...

[-] 4 points by Middleaged (5140) 1 year ago

Thanx. Eric holder & the Karen Hudes Story proves US Racketeering by Big Banks, DOJ, Congress, WB, IMF, and US Regulators.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/business-economy-financial-crisis/untouchables/is-wall-street-still-untouchable/ (Follow-up from May, Eric Holder walks back his remarks)

Appear a Light in the Dark. Anyone can see the Total Corruption of our Government & Elections on this side of the Pond. And anyone can see that the US Reputation as a bastion of Democracy, and Example of Humanity, and Rightful Leader of the World has been "Destroyed" by the Financial Corruption and Crony Capitalism.

Anyone can now Investigate these facts on the Internet. I would never buy a US Derivative or Investment if I lived in the EU or Asia.

I would never Trust the US Ambassador to the UN about Reason to go to war ... or Justification for Rendition, Torture, or permanent Secret Prisons in Cuba.

South America has more Credibility and Democracy than the USA. At least the Activism, Protests, and Riot are by and for the people.

Wow, I have to check out William K. Black, looks good.

But Bill Back can be conservative as he has responsibilities and position at the Universitiy. 10 Million Jobs lost is a very round number which can be questioned here. Probably 10 Million jobs have been replaced by part time service jobs or jobs with low wages and little benefits. 20 Million Jobs have been lost minimum. And we could go further and say we need 20 Million jobs in Manufacturing with benefits as these type of jobs provide a multiplier effect on the money and products in the economy. (just speaking about the USA, the UK could use 10 million jobs as well since the 1970s and Thatcherism).

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (18322) 1 year ago

Great comments, points and post & cross linking to :

multum in parvo ...

[-] 4 points by Middleaged (5140) 1 year ago

Explains why Ken Lay got pardoned by Eric Holder.

And Explains why you have to punish the Mistakes and Fraud to get Justice ... or they end up making concessions to the people we did catch in the Schemes and Racketeering.

Your post above - How Elite Economic Hucksters Drive America’s Biggest Fraud Epidemics by Bill K. Black

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ken_Lay

Bill Blacks article has everything... Phil Gramm, Wendy Gramm, Ken Lay, Alan Greenspan, Ben Bernanke, Robert Rubin, Larry Summers, Tim Geithner, ... NINJA Loans, Subprime Loans, CDS Derivatives, deregulation .... Lincoln Savings & Loan, S &L Crisis, Keating, the Keating Five, Ayn Rand.... Neoliberals, Lobbying, Gift Giving, Campaign Contributions.

And still all these people are in control of our US Government.

We have learned nothing from the Spin, Denials, Lies, Economic Polices that Failed, Deregulation that cause the pain, and the Controlling Corrupted Economists that everyone still Listen to.

LATE ADDITION:

The only thing missing from Bill Blacks article is Monsanto and Death By Corporations which was posted else where by Shadz:

http://truth-out.org/opinion/item/17178-mankind-death-by-corporation

It seems that US Workers, Government Employees, and Regulators are sort of "Compartmentalized". They fudge their job in favor of the corruption of their function... probably to keep a career to get a promotion. But as it all adds up and all of the State has been Captured. State Capture. Regulatory Capture. Revolving Door.

It all adds up to Doom for the Global Citizen and US people.

We now have plenty of Debt in the US, either Private or Public ... it seems to me that banks can force us into Servitude or as indentured servants.

And what did those Farmers in the Article above do to anyone else????!!!! Nothing. 250,000 People killed themselves over Monsanto Debt....

And we still mine Asbestos, people still die from Asbestos.

And Lead is still an environmental toxin that damages permanently... changes lives permanently.

Corporations poison us knowingly. Mothers have BT Toxin in their blood as well as their infants.

[-] 3 points by shadz66 (18322) 1 year ago

"How Big Banks Run the World - at Your Expense", by Gar Alperovitz :

"Once you realize money must be and is regularly created and expanded, then the interesting questions begin to occur - like How is it done ? and Who benefits from it ?"

''The advantage of owning the government outright ; there’s no pressure to do anything. The banks can take their own sweet-time & drag this depression out for ever. And, that’s probably what they’ll do, too.''

''JPMorgan Chase, Goldman Sachs, Bank of America and the handful of other behemoths of Wall Street that dominate American banking — who needs them ?''

''If there is any silver lining to today’s debt crisis, it is that the present situation and trends cannot continue. So this is not only an opportunity to restructure banking; we have little choice.'' & finally :

Solidarity 'Ma' and many thanx for the comprehensive and thought provoking comments here re. 'Corporatocracy' and re. The Infernal Banksters, my parting link = http://www.occupythesec.org/ .

radix omnium malorum est cupiditas ...

[-] 2 points by Middleaged (5140) 1 year ago

I am caught off guard here. Lots to read and understand, but your links are here on my thread. I will find them again to read.

Consider that the problem with Libertairians and Tea party guys in comparing the US Federal Budget to a Household Budget... is that there is a creator of the Currency and a user of the Currency (the point is that there are options and opportunities if you are the creator of the currency). It is a lot like Systems Analysis.

You can create Fiat Currency for quiet a long time. If you are excessive, the global market see this, looks at your financial reputation, looks at your investments, looks at your capital investments such as infrastructure, roads, highways, bridges, ports, waterways, water utilities, electric utilities, waste disposal, pollutions, liabilities... etc.

If you spend too much on the wrong stuff, you are considered a risky investment. This is sort of happening in the USA. I don't have any insight here,.. but clearly the commons are not being respected.

So, we can begin to Write articles about how US People are wrongly considered resources without need for support.

1) All people need support, but in general Social Liberalism includes poverty, education, health care, unemployment insurance, social security.... clean water, good produce, probably electricity, probably access to the internet, and probably support in the community for help with government programs and welfare.

2) The Global Trade economic Policy is focused on profit for business and higher salaries for business executives. This model depends on lower wages or low wages and low benefits for employees. This is why we have illegal immigration in the USA. Immigrants drive down the compensation for employees won by Labor Unions, Labor Laws, and OHSA.

3) Global News shows the abuse of contracts, business law, low wages, exploitation of workers, human rights abuses, loss of individual rights, and abuse from police or authority officials.

4) There must be an attack on the Internet to prevent the global news spread by the Internet, but suppressed by the MSM. This is very serious.

5) Some say that the NSA has a new internet already in place to replicate the internet and control information at the same time. Not sure why a weasel in the NSA, FBI, DOJ, or CIA would support such a Stasi Plan ... why would they condone this? Perhaps the dumbs SOBs in these government agencies don't have a life of their own, perhaps they are lonely, perhaps they don't have friends, perhaps they adhere to a religious doctrine that postulates that all people are dumb or corrupt or infidels or evil or criminal or as creative types they must be subversives.... It is very strange.

6) Of course we have Mormons. Catholics, and Jesuits in our Government. They are very observant, good observers of employees, good at guiding employees toward higher performance, good at seeing people's faults and bringing these faults to the forefront. If we accept this fact that we have Fundamentalists in most of our powerful government agencies... I think we will say, "ok, but they will do what is right for the country's future when it is clear the Lobby has taken control".

7) America is very much a country of Pioneers and Fundamentalist. We can not underestimate the cultural presence of Quakers, Christian Fundamentalist, Protestants, Catholics, 7th Day Adventist, Scientologist, Mormons, Buddhist, Muslims, Hindu, and everything else.

8) Global Trade, Global Abuse, Global Suppression of Rights, Global Loss of Commons and National Resources, Global Loss of Freedom of Speech, Global Loss of Freedom of Press, Global Austerity through governments that want to imitate Europe or the USA, Global Movements through Political Groups that believe they are Oligarchs to funnel profits to their own Cronies under the guise of Capitalism... Global Dances... between groups that vie for political power so that they can control contracts and the flow of government money.

9) The point is there is a creator of the Currency and a user of the Currency the point is that there are options and opportunities if you are the creator of the currency. It is a lot like Systems Analysis. We can target total population as the MMT people would (Modern Monetary Theory, from UKCM, School of Economics). Bottom Line: if people don't have money to spend then the economy doesn't expand. So, when money is freed up to circulate in the economy ... the economy recovers & expands.

And after all it is all about Money:

20 nations around the world are Protesting.

A) People are the Concrete.
B) Money is the ever present corruptor while also the energy of Capitalism (or Crony Capitalism in this Case).
C) The Evil is in Human Nature.
D) Evil is always present when Money is allowed to flow without Regulations.
E) Regulation are the Antidote to Evil and the Corruption of Money.
F) Free Markets Must have Structure in the Form of Regulations to make them work. A Deregulated Stock Market is full of Fraud and no one wants to Trade or Invest. (Therefore, Free Markets are Anarchy unless there is Regulations, Ratings Agencies, and Reviews or Auditing) The problem in the USA is non-adherence to GAAP Rules for Accounting, Lax Auditing, Corrupt Ratings Agencies, and Deregulated Wall Street Investment Banking which is pretty much the same in Private Banking in the USA.

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (18322) 1 year ago

Sorry to catch you ''off guard'' earlier 'Ma' but my links felt applicable for the standing record and as per the 'sway of the thread' and many thanx for your very thought provoking comment above, in response to which, I append this short & telling item :

''What happens when the rule of law increasingly bows to the whims and violations of unaccountable public officials?

''In the United States, we are seeing the rule of law eroded by those at the top levels of our government. We are witnessing the dismantling of the guiding principles of justice and the rule of law. Our legal system has been gamed to preferentially serve the needs of the few rather than those of the many.

''The rule of law should be a persistent guard against -- rather than an instrument of -- unfair advantage or injustice for those with power, money and influence.'' Finally fyi :

fiat justitia ruat caelum ...

[-] 1 points by Middleaged (5140) 1 year ago

We have good news and bad news. I did see some headlines for Ralph Nader and I have sent Mr. Nader some stuff over the last couple of years. I was inspired by the News or Opinion Written by Ralph Nader this last week although I didn't check it out yet. My feeling was "Wow, Nader Finally gets it or I finally get Nader". And your comment made me feel the same way.

Now for the bad news. I know Ralph Nader is a Lawyer and has had a Law office from which he has worked for like over 40 years. Nader is an Un-told Story waiting for Hollywood to catch on. Anyway, we don't really have the rule of Law any more from what I can see.

You know this as this is what OWS is all about.

More and more the Public Relations people for the US Government and the Rulings from the Supreme Court are illogical. And it is not the water that makes us think there is a problem. The problem is the Total Take over of Federal Courts, the refusal to look at Anti-Trust cases in the entire USA, the refusal to hold corporations accountable, the refusal to hold businesses to GAAP accounting Standards or any coherent standards at all,... and you saw the evidence of the lack of standards, guidelines, defined financial instruments... in the 2008 financial crisis. Plus Lawyers and Congressmen don't have standards. Lawyers, Congressmen, Financial Managers, Banks, Accountants, Tax Lawyers and Tax Accountants.... none of them have standards... the can just make up new stuff every week and go forward.

The USA as a Country is going down because it is the land of Cowboys in all our Legal Organizations and Financial Organizations.

We have the Wild, Wild, West today on Wall Street, in Investment Banks and in the management of our Corporations.

War is an Economic Product, a Lobbying Objective, An Objective for Corporations, A Strategic Goal, and A Tactic for Corporate Profits.

You see there is no Rule f Law in Federal Finances, US Corporations, US Accounting, US Finance, and in US Precious Metals and Libor Rates.

Actually I think the FBI was put on Vacation Status since 2008 Financial Crisis. It hasn't Done Shit. And Robert Mueller of the FBI is a Crony, A Corrupt Player, an Opportunist, and just a Cigar Smoking, Simpleton from the Country.

Robert Mueller, Director of the US FBI, couldn't find his asshole if some one paid him a thousand dollars to do it. Just Pray Robert Mueller feel like writing some books and telling the secrets in the next 5-10 years. Now that he has a full pension and is Rich. Asshole (I mean Mueller).

[-] 3 points by shadz66 (18322) 1 year ago

''The dirty little secret of America is the way this place is hard-wired to favor money over good. That's American-style capitalism in a nutshell ... but yet another little secret is the fact that "We the People" still throw considerable weight around this joint, if we choose to. A great many powerful entities have bewitched us into doubting, or even forgetting, this simple truth, but it is the truth. Egypt, currently celebrating its own Fourth of July, is instructive on what happens when We the People show up and say, simply, "No." And the last dirty secret of this brokedown palace: it's supposed to be hard. It was wired that way, too, way back on another Fourth of July. Choose to. You'll be astonished by how powerful you are.'' from :

per aspera ad astra ...

[-] 3 points by Middleaged (5140) 1 year ago

Sean Stone & Karen Hudes make points of links of World Bank to John Perkins, Paul Wolfowitz, and Robert Zoellick. When you look at Robert Zoellick, you **Can't Believe that Mitt Romney was working with this guy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Zoellick
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Yong_Kim
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Wolfowitz
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitt_Romney

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Perkins_(author) Activist, Economist, Former Peace Corps, former World Bank Representative

We all expected Mitt Romney to be another Tool and to be Corrupt, but ... what an Idiot to hire a World bank Director Accused of Corruption. I suppose he thought the news was contained.

Wolfowitz proves the Rule that the WB Directors are corrupt.

I guess we don't know yet about the New Director WB, Jim Yong Kim. Probably Karen Hudes is referring to him at some point.

It doesn't sounds good for Kim to be Director of Corrupt WB at this point.... Jim Yong Kim is going to get his Reputation Ruined in no time flat by association.

[-] 4 points by shadz66 (18322) 1 year ago

'America has a secret. It is not discussed in polite company or at the dinner tables of the powerful, rich and famous.

''Parents do not teach it to their children. Best-selling authors do not write about it. Politicians and government officials ignore it. Intellectuals avoid it. High school and college textbooks do not refer to it. TV pundits do not comment on it. Teachers do not teach it. Journalists from the nation's most highly regarded TV news shows, newspapers and magazines, do not report it. Columnists do not opine about it. Editorial writers do not editorialize about it. Religious leaders do not sermonize about it. Think tanks and professors do not study it. Lawyers do not litigate it and judges do not rule on it.

''The courageous few who do not keep this secret, who try to break through to their fellow citizens about it, are marginalized and ignored by society at large.

''Only in America could leaders convince their citizens they are not launching an aggressive war when they unilaterally attack foreign nations thousands of miles away which pose no serious threat to them.''

fiat lux et fiat pax ...

[-] 4 points by windyacres (1002) 1 year ago

Very powerful article shadz. My outrage is replaced with sadness. I would hope that we would accept Equador's offer for human rights training, humbly admitting that we need it desperately. Here is the link.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/06/27/us-usa-security-ecuador-idUSBRE95Q0L820130627

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (18322) 1 year ago

''Ecuador's leftist government thumbed its nose at Washington on Thursday by renouncing U.S. trade benefits and offering to pay for human rights training in America in response to pressure over asylum for former intelligence contractor Edward Snowden.

''The angry response threatens a showdown between the two nations over Snowden, and may burnish President Rafael Correa's credentials to be the continent's principal challenger of U.S. power after the death of Venezuelan socialist leader Hugo Chavez.'' Excerpted from & thanx for that excellent and telling 'Reuters' link & in reply fyi :

''What happens when the rule of law increasingly bows to the whims and violations of unaccountable public officials ? In the United States, we are seeing the rule of law eroded by those at the top levels of our government. We are witnessing the dismantling of the guiding principles of justice and the rule of law. Our legal system has been gamed to preferentially serve the needs of the few rather than those of the many.''

multum in parvo ...

[-] 2 points by windyacres (1002) 1 year ago

"Our legal system has been gamed to preferentially serve the needs of the few rather than those of the many.'' This is sad but true, the opposite of what we are preparing to celebrate on the 4th of July.

A brilliant plan to control the masses would be to keep people who are lawyers, journalists, police, and military comfortable with their daily lives and their future. Everyone else can scream and cry!

I still believe we should humbly accept human rights training in the USA.

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (18322) 1 year ago

"Keep people who are lawyers, journalists, police, and military comfortable with their daily lives and their future. Everyone else can scream and cry!'' - OUCH !!! Finally and despite humility not being the most renowned US quality and re. your last line, I append fyi :

''When Daniel Ellsberg leaked the Pentagon Papers, exposing the fact that senior US officials had long privately believed that the Vietnam War was unwinnable even as they ordered more American soldiers to their deaths, the Nixon Administration set out to “convict Ellsberg in the media.”''

''Can there be any reasonable dispute that this is what the Obama administration and its allies in Congress and the corporate media have been trying to do to NSA whistleblower Edward Snowden - “convict him in the media” ?''

qui tacet consentire ...

[-] 2 points by Middleaged (5140) 1 year ago

Let there be light & let there be peace.

The Global revolutions for democracy were based on Freedom, Liberty, and Humanism.

America's Secret is that "That all it's people are manipulated by Propaganda since the Creel Commission".

Sorry... I didn't check the link to back this up or corroborate this position. But we are Colluding here anyway. This is an interactive learning opportunity for memebers of the OWS Forum.

America's Secret is that Public Relations applied as much to government officials and operations as it does to corporations and their operations.

America's Secrets is that Money buys Government, all the Regulators, and all the Courts that matters only because everyone must have a job, a career, and they look forward to bonuses. The people of the USA are Human. They only want to make themselves comfortable. For all of us just about ... this means jobs, careers, taking care to be politically aware at work, while working, while contacting customers, and while driving on the road.

And the people that Provide our Public Image... well they are reporters and journalist and some times Politicians and people in the US congress. But all reporters are dependent on access to the powerful offices of government and the good graces of their editor and employers.

The MSM is just as captured as is the Regulators that are hoping and playing along for a chance at landing that next big job.

And so Freedom Of Speech is a thing of the past. Why? Because the power of money is a corruptor. Money is free speech. Money is individual speech. Money is not limited or regulated when it comes to corporate speech.

But... in war... Corporations are not patriots. Corporations can not go to war.

Corporatons can pervert congress with the Profit motive, but they don't go to war, they don't lose fathers or mothers to war, they don't lose husbands, they don't pay to rebuild cities or countries.... corporations can not replace family businesses, nor family homes, nor family culture, nor family records, nor family savings, nor ... a city's economy... nor a state's economy, ... corporations can't not piece together a community or state culture/history. War Sucks.

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (18322) 1 year ago

Further to my earlier link from Ralph Nader, fyi :

Linked to here just in case you missed it from 'windyacres' to me earlier on this thread. Solidarity 'Ma' :-)

As per : ''Corporations can't not piece together a community or state culture/history. War Sucks.'' Yes &

oremus - fiat pax ...

[-] 3 points by Middleaged (5140) 1 year ago

Adding that Robert Mueller, Director FBI, is a Traitor to the Marine Corps and to the Office and Constitution for which he serves. I don't just say that because I am an emotional person. I think Robert Mueller knows the Truth about Subprime Mortgages, about Deregulation, About Private banking being largely deregulated, about the Huge Risk to the US Banking System and Central Banking System with un-measurable derivatives sold into the global market place in US Denominations from US Bankers.

Look we think the US Lost $10 Trillion Dollars in Asset in the 2008 Financial Crisis and we think there is $1 Quadrillion in Derivatives world wide issued by US Financial Organizations.

But we don't measure them, Mr. Mueller. We don't know how many Financial Instruments are Written in US Dollars. Do you see a Risk here, Robert? The scam is that only the people in the Federal Government and in the Federal Reserve Banking System are smart enough to understand the Risk of the US Banking System and the Risk to the US Currency.

But I tell you now, Mr. Mueller, FBI, US Economist believe that the Fiat Currency has an inherent flexibility and inherent property that make it totally different from house hold finances. We can expand the supply of money going to common people and "Jump Start" our economy. Austerity is bad. Austerity shrinks the money flowing in the Economy. Clearly bad. But the US Economist behind MMT, Modern Monetary Theory, believe we can target populations, interest rates, and the flow of money which expands the economy to tell us when there is enough or too much money in the economy.

The USA is a Creator of the US Fiat Currency.

This means we have control over the expansion of our economy, that we can spend money to stimulate the economy, and that Austerity is the Dumbest Idea ever brought into the 21st Century so far. American is strong and all it needs is loans, money, and money flow to get people spending and to get our economy to expand.

The FBI has been listening to the wrong people.. and is Controlled by the Wrong People in my honest Opinion.

Get with it, Robert Mueller, FBI, name Names, Write a book, and start talking. You are the Whistleblower we need now. Or will it be Treason, Mr. Mueller????

[-] 3 points by shadz66 (18322) 1 year ago

Robert Mueller can't be counted on for shit but hope springs eternal that some FBI / CIA / NSA .. ABC or XYZ spook - perhaps on diagnosis of a serious illness or something - finally spills enough shit to prod even the most docile and supine US citizens into an awareness into what is being done to them in the name of their notional democracy but actual plutocracy :

radix omnium malorum est cupiditas ...

[Removed]

[-] 3 points by TikiJ (-38) 1 year ago

Excellent post. Thank you for explaining what liberalism is.

[-] 3 points by Middleaged (5140) 1 year ago

At least I got one person the information. Thanx.

[-] 2 points by agkaiser (1321) from Fredericksburg, TX 1 year ago

Mussolini said that fascism should be called corporatism, since it's a marriage of corporate and state powers. Anyone who thinks that's not where America has been led is not paying attention to reality.

[-] 2 points by forourfutures (393) 1 year ago

Corp ceo's perform best if sociopaths.

Great! Let's put them in charge with rights of personhood and lots of money. While at it, make it so non persons with rights of persons, are the only ones that can speak and be heard.

Uh, our society is insane.

[-] 2 points by beautifulworld (21480) 1 year ago

Fantastic post. Not sure how I missed this one. Thanks, ma. It always helps to have a historical perspective that is broad and that can show us how we got here. Really, that is the only way to get out, by understanding how we got here.

[-] 3 points by Middleaged (5140) 1 year ago

Thanx for coming and taking the time to read. Keep up the good work... I was sort of struck by the Idea myself when I saw this.

[-] 2 points by Middleaged (5140) 1 year ago

Just reposting this here as file and so maybe some others will read it.

Why does Germany Claim a higher Value for Privacy in their Culture/Society than what they see of US Values for Privacy? This according to at least one German Representative.

This is a question to Explore.

I think it is only the Military & Corporate Control in the USA ... especially in this Era of the Global War on Terrorism... But I think you have to look at the first Corporations and Big Establishment Churches ... which have often proven to exercise a kind of military control over the thoughts of People, the Values of People for being a part of a Big Organization, The Values for Perfection, the Values for control in General for how people dress, look, act, speak, build relationships, and value sports & military.

Obviously... any Reporter will come up with his or her own ideas here. China controls political thought in it's country. now so does the USA. it also controls political dissidents and political activism. Freedom of speech is limited in the USA.

The Vatican is the original big corporation... and it seems to have developed mind control, through it's missionary efforts around the Globe. People were controlled and originally had to go to Priest to interpret the Law, the Code of the Land, the Bible which was written in Latin.

Today... the USA has complex Laws, tax Laws, Financial Organizations, Private Banking, Derivatives, Accounting, Shell Companies, Off Shore Entities for Retirement Funds, Trust Funds, and for hiding Profits and Avoiding US Taxes. The Result is that Many Americans get in trouble with taxes, the IRS, Corporate Law, Financial Scandals, Shell Companies, Corrupt CEOs and CFOs, .... Today no one can say what the Constitution for the US Means or how to Interpret it... as evidenced by Supreme court Rulings that we have no emphasis on Individual Rights or Privacy... nor is the Protection from Damages from big Corporate Entities that work to change US Laws, Damages from high interest Rates, damages from Commerce, damages to the Environment and Well Water, Damages to the US Elections, Loss of tax Revenue from Corporations & Wealthy, Damage and costs associated with Decapitalization of US Manufacturing Faculties, damages due to Child Labor or Slave Labor used overseas to make products sold in the USA.

This last point is about how Complexity of government rules puts common people at risk for fair treatment in court or in legal matters. The complex corporate machine is a risk to us all.

What if Lawyers deliberately write laws and legislation to create a lower class that can not access the US Laws or Fight or Complain... without incurring high legal fees.

Language is complexity. Language can be sued to create a lower class of common people who can not access congress, the courts, or change our government and rules of incorporation.

The posturing around the Edward Snowden Leaks... is being handled in a way not to admit anything. Politicians are making it complex and opaque. This separates the common people from the US Congress... this is Dumbing Us Down in Action. But the Obama Admin has been Opaque in the same way that Congress has since JFK was Assassinated. Nothing new here.

There are many ways that Congress, Bankers, and Corporations have created separate classes of people... and added complexity to the USA.

A) Illegal Immigration is a lower class that can not access the same level of Justice, Law, Government, and Education
B) Adding Complexity to tax Law, Financial Law, Rules of Incorpoation like shell companies and offshore companies, off shore trust accounts for retirement or other corporate benefits....
C) Making money and the Authority to create money and new loans available to a few banks, bankers, a cartel, a cabol, hedge fund managers,... and even special low tax rates for Private bankers.
D) No Justice for Investment Bankers that provided the Mechanism for Sub Prime Mortgage Fraud through ratings agencies and through the purchases and advanced agreement to purchase fraudulent financial Instruments.
E) Bailouts, Bonuses, and Salary Increases for Wall Street Investment Bankers after 2008 Financial & Global Collapse.
F) Not even an FBI Request for Evidence of Wall Street Banker Fraud in 2008.
G) US Money provided to World Bank has no Restrictions and Auditing, so that it is clear that most money goes to only certain elite individuals and not to the intended people in poverty. it is a give-away. But it is also "Willful Negligence" to monitor US Federal Funds for pursuit of the intent of the Federal Bill authorizing this activity.
H) But most of this Classism, advantages to Wealthy or Corporations is all about Willful Neglect to follow up, audit, and make sure the intent of the Law is followed.
I) The Southern Border with Mexico is Open the last 100 years, because that is the policy of the US Congress. It is willfully keeping the border open to lower wages, lower union benefits, and provide cheap labor for Business Interests. (their advice must be, you change careers if you are effected by this)

[-] 5 points by windyacres (1002) 1 year ago

Complexity breeds fraud! Fraudsters have taken advantage of real events in history that actually required going deeper into justice, and doing so establishing case law. Common sense and justice are overcome with complexity, and fraud eventually results.

This does create a lower class of common people, and makes a mockery of justice for all.

[-] 2 points by Middleaged (5140) 1 year ago

I think I hear experience there. There certainly must be a lot of Terrible Law & Case Law out there as you point out. Both Equality for Common People and Justice for Common people & Communities have been damaged as Principals.

Should be able to Sue based on Damages for Willful Neglect... but we should push for pulling Government Employees or Officials out of Sovereign Immunity based on the Scope of Damage as a whole nation has be hurt.

[-] 2 points by windyacres (1002) 1 year ago

My experience included an attorney that I hired informing me of the new, "golden rule". I was previously unaware of the new rule and had a difficult time accepting the reality of it. I decided to get another attorney and told him about the new golden rule, he looked at me and said, "You don't believe it yet, do you", and I responded that I recognized the reality of it but refused to accept it. He then informed me that, "they", would prove it to me and they did.

"He who has the Gold, makes the rules". I will fight that injustice until it doesn't exist or until I die.

[-] 1 points by Middleaged (5140) 1 year ago

Yes. It certainly is a reality. The powerful have control over our personal info and the systems we depend on. I suppose our government Executives are riding on the shirt-tails of the Really Powerful people that have the Gold. Seems like the Investment bankers control the Federal Reserve, Lend Money, Manage our Federal Government Budgets, and provide Advise and Legislation to our Fearless Congressmen & Women....

What a Country said Yakoff Smirnoff.

[-] 3 points by windyacres (1002) 1 year ago

A true democracy would not allow this reality and would insist on the original golden rule, but the control of information undermines democracy. Lincoln could only hope;

"That government of the people, for the people, and by the people, SHALL NOT PERISH from the earth.

[-] 2 points by Middleaged (5140) 1 year ago

Yeah, I think you are talking about the Corruption from Crony Capitalism more than democracy. We don't have a pure Capitalism System, Don't really have Free Markets, and Don't really have Pure Democracy. We were set up as Limited Republic or perhaps a Limited democracy. You probably know this. The other thing is that we have Social Programs. So you might say we have a mixed economy with Social Liberalism.

In this forum we seem to be all about Democracy or Anarchy or Libertarian socialism or Anarcho-syndicalism. I tend to like Social Liberalism at this point which developed out of Liberalism.

Liberalism first became a distinct political movement during the Age of Enlightenment, when it became popular among philosophers and economists in the Western world. Liberalism rejected the notions, common at the time, of hereditary privilege, state religion, absolute monarchy, and the Divine Right of Kings

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism

But I imagine you fit in somewhere with everyone else on these things. Capitalism could work if we could keep the influence of money and careers out of government... and keep corporations and organizations small and keep executive compensation limited... while keeping education, housing, and health care affordable.

But as you know we have State Capture, Regulatory Capture, and Revolving Doors to Industry while officials have conflicts of Interest and false ideas & myths are spread to promote Right Wing Ideology and control the people.

[-] 4 points by windyacres (1002) 1 year ago

I understand tyranny of the majority and the necessity of a Bill of Rights. I also believe that "All People are Equal", and democracy should be preferred over other systems.

Democracy, (without allowing tyranny of the majority), would allow the human spirit as a whole to solve economic systems along with freedom and justice. State Capture, Regulatory Capture, conflicts of interest, etc. would be controlled by the human spirit if the world had more democracy.

[-] 2 points by Middleaged (5140) 1 year ago

Yes, the Tyranny of the Majority is something we all have to recognize. I'm not sure this group understands that yet.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (34891) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Tyranny of the Majority

Don't you guys mean - Tyranny of the Minority???

OR was that meant to be understood as the Majority is being tyrannized? Tyranny of the Minority on the Majority?

[-] 3 points by windyacres (1002) 1 year ago

Understanding "Tyranny of the Majority" is needed to understand the flaw of pure democracy. You should probably google it. It is irony that we actually have tyranny of the minority on the majority.

[-] 1 points by Middleaged (5140) 1 year ago

It is all about Nazis. And Nazi Rule. Not sure what he is saying below. Well... okay maybe you are correct. In Germany in the Third Reich the Majority Ruled and they killed off the minority... So, the Maj was Tyrannical on the Min.

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (34891) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

OK - I can see that.

[-] 1 points by Middleaged (5140) 1 year ago

Yes, I think you had it right all along. We were just describing it differently. Good call.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (34891) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

[-] 2 points by Middleaged (5058) 2 minutes ago

But we agree. The Scenario proves the need for Human Rights, Individual Rights, Civil Rights, Privacy & Primacy of people over big Organizations, Anti-Trust Legislation & Enforcement, Minimization of State Intelligence organizations, Minimization of Police Powers, ... and all our law for Just Treatment of Prisoners, Freedom from cruel punishment, speedy trial, an attorney, the freedom to call family and attorneys from Jail or Prison, Freedom from Rendition, Freedom from Kidnaping and Disappearing at the Hands of the Police, Freedom from Torture, and Freedom to health checks, medicine, food, nutrition, and clean water while in US Federal Jails or Military Prisons.

↥twinkle ↧stinkle permalink

WOW {:-]) all that from my asking for clarification - Tyranny of the Minority visited on the Majority - or visa versa? You are good at reading between the lines. :-)

[-] 3 points by Middleaged (5140) 1 year ago

Thanx. Seems like a clear thought. I guess I am learning to tie things together. Maybe this is a Major Problem in the USA. People are so Distracted from Law.... that the social fabric is breaking down. we don't know what binds us together any more.

[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (34891) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

It is like too much Trust.

Actually - To Me - it is more like - HURRY UP G-Damn IT - Can'T You See I am In a Hurry? So spit it out already (rolling eyes - I really do not have time for this ) - OH by the way if you are not up to the challenge we are happy to tell you what it all means while telling you nothing.

the media does to us when they just repeat the talking points from the pentagon, DNI, Wall Street Bankers, the president, and the Congress.

The Media? Yeah they are complicit for the fostering of the attitude - "ALL YOU NEED ARE HEADLINES" ( fill in the blanks yourself - you have an imagination don't you? - why let us or anyone else give you full details/facts? )

The populations doesn't remember a war on our shores so... it doesn't mind US Wars overseas. It can't understand the misery of war, so it doesn't mind.

TRUE - the population has no idea what war is like or is all about - they think it is like a video game. If they think about it at all.

It can't understand racketeering or Collusion between government officials & big Business... and can't understand the Financial Crisis in 2008... So the populace doesn't mind. Doesn't care that no one was found responsible.

It's kinda like the public is thinking - OK take notes ( my time is coming - I just gotta do it right - Bernie's mistake was he didn't do it right ).

And perhaps you are also pointing out that some people prefer ideology over discussion.

Kind of - They have an ideology ( It's just not necessarily good - and they would rather that fact was not pointed out ).

When you believe in an Ideology... you don't have to think, read, look for information, study, write papers, learn to work with numbers or government budgets.... An Ideologue just listens to his Peer Group, his Friends, His family, His Industry, His Work-Mates, His union.... or whatever MSM News Channel he likes.

EXACTLY

HEY HEY - does that come with easy to follow instructions?

It can be as easy as choosing to be a republican, democrat, libertarian, or tea party.

Put in your ingredients - Stir - pour into container - stick in the oven at 350 degrees for an hour - walla.

But I have to admit. There is a lot of Information out there. Maybe... for me... it is good to get away from TV & Radio & Main Stream Internet News.

Hell YES there is a lot of good information out there. And it would be good for everyone to get away from MSM - only go back now and then just to see what crap they are spewing now.

[-] 1 points by Middleaged (5140) 1 year ago

Great Points.

[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (34891) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

[-] 3 points by Middleaged (5067) 37 minutes ago

Thanx. Seems like a clear thought. I guess I am learning to tie things together. Maybe this is a Major Problem in the USA. People are so Distracted from Law.... that the social fabric is breaking down. we don't know what binds us together any more.

↥twinkle ↧stinkle permalink

People are so Distracted from Law.... that the social fabric is breaking down. we don't know what binds us together any more.

It's not just that. Ever notice how many individuals have no patience for a full in depth conversation? "Just give me the highlights" and they wonder why there seems to be so much miscommunication.

[-] 1 points by Middleaged (5140) 1 year ago

You are right. It is like too much Trust. And that is what the media does to us when they just repeat the talking points from the pentagon, DNI, Wall Street Bankers, the president, and the Congress.

They proved how dumb we are when the CIA has been caught time after time doing malevolent things... yet we don't ask for an end to the Agency. The US fabricated reasons to go to war in Iraq... yet, there was little demand for firing staff... and little real outrage.

The populations doesn't remember a war on our shores so... it doesn't mind US Wars overseas. It can't understand the misery of war, so it doesn't mind.

It can't understand racketeering or Collusion between government officials & big Business... and can't understand the Financial Crisis in 2008... So the populace doesn't mind. Doesn't care that no one was found responsible.

And perhaps you are also pointing out that some people prefer ideology over discussion.

When you believe in an Ideology... you don't have to think, read, look for information, study, write papers, learn to work with numbers or government budgets.... An Ideologue just listens to his Peer Group, his Friends, His family, His Industry, His Work-Mates, His union.... or whatever MSM News Channel he likes.

It can be as easy as choosing to be a republican, democrat, libertarian, or tea party.

But I have to admit. There is a lot of Information out there. Maybe... for me... it is good to get away from TV & Radio & Main Stream Internet News.

[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (34891) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Thanks but mmmmmmmmmm I'm not so sure - In Nazi Germany the many turned on the few - the majority drank the kool-aid served up by Hitler. That was a minority that influenced itself into a majority and that majority started rounding up and killing the minority. So in that instance it was a majority tyrannizing the minority.

Here - now - we have a minority that is in control and that is abusing in comparison "a" majority - but then there is another large group/segment of the population that really does not see it that way ( yet ) and while they may not be against the other majority ( that is certainly getting abused ) they are also not recognizing ( or is it acknowledging ? ) what the minority at the very top are doing - they are turning a blind eye to the injustice and the rampant crime and the poor leadership the destruction of the economy.


I am not sure I stated that quite completely correctly - but it's late - good night/morning.

[-] 2 points by Middleaged (5140) 1 year ago

But we agree. The Scenario proves the need for Human Rights, Individual Rights, Civil Rights, Privacy & Primacy of people over big Organizations, Anti-Trust Legislation & Enforcement, Minimization of State Intelligence organizations, Minimization of Police Powers, ... and all our law for Just Treatment of Prisoners, Freedom from cruel punishment, speedy trial, an attorney, the freedom to call family and attorneys from Jail or Prison, Freedom from Rendition, Freedom from Kidnaping and Disappearing at the Hands of the Police, Freedom from Torture, and Freedom to health checks, medicine, food, nutrition, and clean water while in US Federal Jails or Military Prisons.

[-] 1 points by LeoYo (5854) 1 year ago

Democracy without the tyranny of the majority isn't a real democracy. In fact, how can a democracy decide to prevent the tyranny of the majority unless it is that very same majority that is implementing that decision and can therefore revoke it at any moment it decides to engage in mob rule? Democracy is about everyone being subject to the desires of the majority. Its very essence is rooted in a conflict of interests that is only resolved by deference to the majority. Justice is about doing what's right regardless of the desires of the majority. Justice can only coexist with democracy to the extent that the just course of action coincides with the interests of the majority. If people were all of a mind to disregard their personal desires pertaining to social regulation and only pursue justice for the greater good of the whole, there would be no place for democracy as there would be no conflicts in interests, only resolvable conflicts of misunderstanding. But, as James Madison had said:

"Those who contend for a simple democracy, or a pure republic, actuated by the sense of the majority, and operating within narrow limits, assume or suppose a case which is altogether fictitious. They found their reasoning on the idea, that the people composing the Society, enjoy not only an equality of political rights; but that they have all precisely the same interests, and the same feelings in every respect. Were this in reality the case, their reasoning would be conclusive. The interest of the majority would be that of the minority also; the decisions could only turn on mere opinion concerning the good of the whole, of which the major voice would be the safest criterion; and within a small sphere, this voice could be most easily collected, and the public affairs most accurately managed."

"We know however that no Society ever did or can consist of so homogeneous a mass of Citizens. In the savage State indeed, an approach is made towards it; but in that State little or no Government is necessary. In all civilized Societies, distinctions are various and unavoidable. A distinction of property results from that very protection which a free Government gives to unequal faculties of acquiring it. There will be rich and poor; creditors and debtors; a landed interest, a monied interest, a mercantile interest, a manufacturing interest. These classes may again be subdivided according to the different productions of different situations & soils, & according to different branches of commerce, and of manufactures. In addition to these natural distinctions, artificial ones will be founded, on accidental differences in political, religious or other opinions, or an attachment to the persons of leading individuals. However erroneous or ridiculous these grounds of dissention and faction, may appear to the enlightened Statesman, or the benevolent philosopher, the bulk of mankind who are neither Statesmen nor Philosophers, will continue to view them in a different light."

http://occupywallst.org/forum/free-democracy-amendment/#comment-747341

[-] 1 points by windyacres (1002) 1 year ago

Part of what Madison said was this; "mere opinion concerning the good of the whole, of which the major voice would be the safest criterion;"

The human spirit as a whole is more accessible than ever and should make government of, for, and by the people better. Is there a better form of government?

[-] 2 points by LeoYo (5854) 1 year ago

Yes; reason.

So long as decisions are to be based upon the mere preferences of a majority, there will always be an unjustly affected minority demonstrating the majority's lack of concern for the good of the whole. The fulfilled preferences of the majority are not the good of the whole. The determination of what's best for the good of the whole can't be determined by the mere opinion of the major voice. That requires a commitment to reason with the goal of justice for all. People aren't interested in any reasoning that doesn't conform to their personal interests which is why democracy is the default of that lack of interest. As George Washington had said:

"Experience has taught us, that men will not adopt and carry into execution measures the best calculated for their own good, without the intervention of a coercive power."

http://occupywallst.org/forum/free-democracy-amendment/#comment-537358

But people aren't even interested in democracy itself. They're not interested and have never been interested in establishing a national initiative and referendum like Switzerland has. Twenty-six of the 50 states aren't interested in having state initiatives. People are content to have others govern for them only to complain about the results and even then, mainly only complaining about the results produced by the party that doesn't represent them. What is to be condemned under one party is to be defended under the other. Outside of the political arena, people have the direct democratic economic power to cease patronization of harmful things such as pollutant products, humanly poisonous pestisides, and GMOs yet they depend upon government to actually pass legislation to force them to do what's best for themselves and their future generations. People are self-centered and apathetic towards anything they don't strongly identify with which is why tyranny almost always rules.

“In all revolutions, those who ardently pursue the fight to the death are in the minority and there are usually at least as many who are ardently anti-revolutionary, plus an actual majority that is apathetic and will go where they are led (in either direction), if necessary, but who best prefer to be left alone.”

-Isaac Asimov

http://occupywallst.org/forum/free-democracy-amendment/#comment-539299

"Liberty means responsibility. That is why most men dread it."

-George Bernard Shaw

http://occupywallst.org/forum/free-democracy-amendment/#comment-520061

"all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed."

-Declaration of Independence

http://occupywallst.org/forum/free-democracy-amendment/#comment-522673

http://occupywallst.org/forum/free-democracy-amendment/#comment-525979

"All exploitation is based on co-operation, willing or forced, of the exploited. However much we may detest admitting it, the fact remains that there would be no exploitation if people refused to obey the exploiter. But self comes in and we hug the chains that bind us."

-Mahatma Gandhi

http://occupywallst.org/forum/free-democracy-amendment/#comment-535263

Democracy inhibits the governmental repression of an otherwise apathetic majority. It does not inhibit the repression of any minorites that the majority is either unfavorable or apathetic towards nor does it inhibit the disenfranchisement of future generations from the present majority's irresponsibleness. Only a non-democratic governmental commitment to justice for all arrived at through reason inhibits the repression of minorities and disenfranchisement of future generations. Only a reasoned Bill of Rights inhibits a democracy's tyranny of the majority. Thus, if non-democratic reason is needed to make a democracy just, a government based upon reason is naturally better than a govenment based upon democracy. This would be true even if it only pertained to a single individual. The life of the individual whose decicions are based on an assessment of reason to arrive at the best decisions is going to be better than the life of the individual whose decisions are merely based upon an assessment of their major desires to arrive at the best decisions. Be it for the individual or for the collective, decisions based upon an adherence to reason are going to be better than decisions ultimately based upon mere desire.

In the end, it all comes down to the nature of humanity rather than the form of government. So long as it's the nature of humanity to place desire above reason, no form of government can work. If humanity should ever become capable of placing reason above its desires, any form of government not inherently based in inequality will work.

[-] 2 points by windyacres (1002) 1 year ago

Commitment to reason with the goal of justice for all sounds perfect.

When life becomes basic, I'm reminded of the example Dennis Kucinich used about the first scene of 2001 A Space Odyssey. Two rival groups of cavemen do not believe there is enough water in the waterhole for both groups. One of the cavemen uses a tool, (just a bone), to conquer the other cavemen and secure the water hole for his group. Emotionally, the caveman throws the bone in the air and the next scene is a space station.

Reason must include the human spirit recognizing that tools should be used for mankind in the whole, loving one another, and an end to fighting.

If humans did not have elbows, arms locked straight, the only way to feed oneself would be eating like a dog eats. A better way would be to feed each other.

[-] 3 points by LeoYo (5854) 1 year ago

The key to humans feeding each other is identifying with each other. Without a shared common identity based upon a shared common need, apathy towards the differences leads to the competition and conflicts of the differing identities.

[-] 3 points by windyacres (1002) 1 year ago

The shared common need of humans is survival of life. Differences, identities, and competition, etc., are human instincts present since cavemen.

If humans can differentiate from nature, we should identify with each other in the form of protecting the weak, which protects the survival of life in the human race.

[-] 3 points by LeoYo (5854) 1 year ago

Survival of life is not a shared common need. When the weak perish, the strong do not suffer thus the survival of life is not threatened. If a man kills another man, the survival of life is not threatened. If a nation destroys another nation, the survival of life is still not threatened. When a government threatens another government with nuclear warfare, then the survival of life is finally threatened yet history has shown that it's still not enough to bring about the common need of humanity.

Different identities have ever merged into greater identities. Groups of villages and towns have formed states. States have formed empires and international unions. The only thing that will unite the differing identities of humanity is a shared common government and the only thing that will bring about such a government is a shared common economy.

On the flip side, all of that would be unnecessary if all governments were to be like Switzerland in simply renouncing war and furthermore engage openly in fair trade.

[-] 2 points by Middleaged (5140) 1 year ago

Reposting this to my own string for future reference and to increase the chance that someone will read it.

What do you think about "Unstated International Truths:"

1) US Dominant Powers hate Communist, see Socialists as Communist, and Hate governments & Countries like France because of this.... or at least are very prejudiced against France and other Socialist Countries. This is partly why the US Spies on France and Doesn't Trust France.
2) The USA is a Socialist Country with Plenty of Socialist Programs most notably lacking Social Medicine in Fully Nationalized Medical Care, and Free University, College, or Technical Education. But the Fact is the USA will never admit that it is a Socialist Country in any way shape or form... since this is a very political issue and many lobbyists representing big money are either on Wall Street or in Corporations.
3) Protests by politicians in France & Germany are likely more about show at this point. The basis for this statement is that they are Politicians Speaking... and after everyone was conditioned to accept Cold War Spying, then... we entered an age of Industrial Spying that everyone is involved in and is aware of.
4) The USA will never stop Spying on it's NATO Allies and all other countries because of all the Powerful Forces behind the Lobbying. The US Military-Defense-Security-Prison- and Intelligence Complex... loves it's toys, weapons, communications, training programs, militarized police, international satellite surveillance system, international internet Networks, and all it's power through the world and support from international and state department participants. There is a hell of a lot of money flowing to corporations and to career developmental positions for our security and military people.
5) The day we get Federal Budget Spending on Military under control will be the day we have a total revolution or total collapse. If 1/3 of our Economy is in security, military, intelligence, prisons, court systems, and the Federal Government... the Economy would tank in a way that few could effectively convince the US Congress to shift spending to programs for the people and away from the sexy and conservative spending for the Right Wing.

So, ... Somehow the USA has to shift Federal Spending away from benefiting only Military & security Careers. Just as somehow we have to Spark a new era or new Industry in our economy to provide new jobs and career training for our young people and idle work force. But... deep down we know the News about Edward Snowden is "STILL A SIDESHOW" and is not yet a Full Public Discussion NOR does it resemble Honest Media Reporting in any way shape or form.

[-] 2 points by WSmith (4187) from Cornelius, OR 1 year ago

OK, all these ideas in one post confuse and make responding and assimilating very difficult for people, and one reason why I could not work with you. Focus, focus, focus.

Yes, we're in a new tyranny.

Yes, it's a continuation of Feudalism/Monarchy.

It has to do with Authoritarianism and the Conservative's mental predilection to it.

And it has to do with Religion, Theocracy and Fundamentalism.

These are codependent with Authoritarianism, and related to Feudalism and Monarchy.

All of which rely on a HIGHER POWER!

All of which has been exploited by big $!

Democracy contradicts all of this nonsense, giving The ("mere and sinful") People all the Power. And is therefore anathema to conservative, authoritarian believers in higher powers. Not to mention Big $.

People have to wake up, these NUTS & DICTATOR$ are out there and are ready to do what they are told, even if it hurts their own best interests.

[-] 3 points by Middleaged (5140) 1 year ago

Thanks for taking the time involved. For me the information all flowed together... but if I am not being effective, then it is difficult for readers.

Sounds like you understand how we are all behind liberalism as the Age of Enlightenment brought the world to Revolution against Monarchy. Even the Republicans & Conservitives have to admit they support the Philosophy of Classic Liberalism.

Maybe we can teach the Conservatives a thing or two ... and soften them up a little when they hear the word "Liberal". Besides few conservatives really want to end free K-12 Schooling, Medicare, unemployment Insurance, and Social Security. I know some older Republicans that would start shooting if they lose their social security. To me this means they support Social Liberalism.

[-] 3 points by WSmith (4187) from Cornelius, OR 1 year ago

A nation of laws, not men, yes. But the best legal system money can buy pretty much sums up all that.

It's a bunker mentality, and money is the concrete.

[-] 2 points by Middleaged (5140) 1 year ago

20 nations around the world are Protesting.

A) People are the Concrete.
B) Money is the ever present corruptor while also the energy of Capitalism (or Crony Capitalism in this Case).
C) The Evil is in Human Nature.
D) Evil is always present when Money is allowed to flow without Regulations.
E) Regulation are the Antidote to Evil and the Corruption of Money.

If we can restore Law to the USA, the biggest problem will be to keep the people from killing off all the people that know how to keep the many systems in our Country of System - working (check me here, maybe I am wrong about this part. All I know is the country is complicated.)

[-] 1 points by WSmith (4187) from Cornelius, OR 1 year ago
[-] -1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 1 year ago

It's intentional. It creates a wall of shit and then a bunch of IDs come around and pat it on it's little head.

[-] 0 points by WSmith (4187) from Cornelius, OR 1 year ago

Don't get overwhelmed! It's all just about old GREED. Stuff we learned in Kindergarten. Just with more additives and pronouns.

UNITY and WORKING TOGETHER WINS!!!

[-] 0 points by GirlFriday (17435) 1 year ago

What's to be overwhelmed about? It creates a wall of shit and then a bunch of IDs come around and pat it on it's little head.

[-] 0 points by WSmith (4187) from Cornelius, OR 1 year ago

OK, I should know better than wasting time with you, but what is your "it"?

[-] 1 points by Middleaged (5140) 1 year ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Taylor_Gatto

Bibliography

Dumbing Us Down: The Hidden Curriculum of Compulsory Schooling (1992).
The Exhausted School (1993).
A Different Kind of Teacher: Solving the Crisis of American Schooling (2000). ISBN 1-893163-21-0
The Underground History of American Education (2001). (Complete Text online)
'Against School' (2003) (Complete Text Online)
Weapons of Mass Instruction: A Schoolteacher's Journey through the Dark World of Compulsory Schooling (2008). ISBN 0-86571-631-5

Apparently John Gatto Perfected Teaching our Kids and Found the US School System didn't want kids to be Taught to be Smarter. So he had to write books....

[-] 1 points by Middleaged (5140) 1 year ago

John Perkins Video shows a speech he gave about Big Oil in Iraq under the Leader Abd Al-Karim Qasim. In 1960 the CIA sent Saddam Hussein to Assassinate Qasim who believe Iraqi Oil should go to the Iraqi People or to Profit the Iraqi People... not big oil. (Wataniyah policy of ‘Iraq First’.) Apparently, Saddam Missed, was wounded, and fled to Syria.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abd_al-Karim_Qasim

Abd al-Karim Qasim (Arabic: عبد الكريم قاسم‎ `Abd al-Karīm Qāsim) (21 November 1914 – 9 February 1963), was a nationalist Iraqi Army general who seized power in a 1958 coup d'état, wherein the Iraqi monarchy who were eliminated (On July 14, 1958, the royal family including King Faisal II).

Qasim ruled the country as Prime Minister until his downfall and death during the 1963 Ramadan Revolution.

Foreign policy

Qasim soon withdrew Iraq from the pro-Western Baghdad Pact and established friendly relations with the Soviet Union. Iraq also abolished its Treaty of mutual security and bilateral relations with the UK. Also, Iraq withdrew from the agreement with the United States that was signed by the monarchy from 1954 to 1955 regarding military, arms, and equipment. On May 30, 1959, the last of the British soldiers and military officers departed the al-Habbāniyya base in Iraq.[6]

In September 1960, Qasim demanded that the Anglo American-owned Iraqi Petroleum Company (IPC) share 20% of the ownership and 55% of the profits with the Iraqi government. Then, in response to the IPC's rejection of this proposal, Qasim issued Public Law 80, which would have taken away 99.5% of the IPC's ownership and established an Iraqi national oil company to oversee the export of Iraqi oil. British and US officials and multinationals demanded that the Kennedy administration place pressures on the Qasim regime.[37]

Qasim was overthrown by the Ba'athist coup of February 8, 1963, motivated by fear of communist influence and state control over the petroleum sector. This coup was allegedly carried out with the backing of the British government and the American CIA.[38][39][40] The best direct evidence that the U.S. was complicit is the memo from NSC staff member Robert Komer to President John F. Kennedy on the night of the coup, February 8, 1963. The last paragraph reads:

"We will make informal friendly noises as soon as we can find out whom to talk with, and ought to recognize as soon as we’re sure these guys are firmly in the saddle. CIA had excellent reports on the plotting, but I doubt either they or UK should claim much credit for it.[41]

Qasim was given a short trial and he was shot soon after. Later, footage of his execution was broadcast to prove he was dead.[42] Between 1,500 and 5,000 Iraqis were killed in the fighting from February 8–10, 1963, and in the house-to-house hunt for "communists" that immediately followed.[43]

Effects of Qasim’s rule
5.1 Land reform
5.2 Women's rights
5.3 Social reform

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Iraqi_War

The Anglo–Iraqi War was the British campaign against the rebel government of Rashid Ali in the Kingdom of Iraq during the Second World War. Operations lasted from 2 to 31 May 1941. The campaign resulted in the re-occupation of Iraq by British armed forces and the return to power of the ousted pro-British regent of Iraq, Prince 'Abd al-Ilah. The campaign further fuelled nationalist resentment in Iraq toward the British-supported Hashemite monarchy.

[-] -1 points by Theeighthpieceuv8 (-32) from Seven Sisters, Wales 1 year ago

Anthropomorphism: you can't measure a colonial mindset in anything other than their own words, the words and precise perception of words common to the vernacular. Liberal and conservative - this is political BS - and politics has no place except in the sense that America's political institutions did not wish to surrender their power.

[-] -1 points by Theeighthpieceuv8 (-32) from Seven Sisters, Wales 1 year ago

I don't really agree with your history. There is this thing about the "rise of individualism" as self empowerment. And I think you'll find that Humanism rose in conjunction with religious dissent as two distinct movements with a shared pathology. The other question, "what is 'enlightenment'"? must really be addressed. And I don't think pseudo intellectuals have attempted this. Had they done so they would have realized that our American ancestors were "enlightened" long before any European ever published, at the time the most "liberal" anywhere in the English speaking world. The tendency here is to diffuse as a means to empower... the rise of secularism in academia, circa the 1830s, the creation of a "social scientist," is little more than a power grab. And hundreds of years later we are still directing our physicists, our mathematicians, our greatest philosophical minds, quantum computing and new forms of computing, in the discovery of "God Matter." "In the beginning there was the Word" and this is a scientific fact.

[-] 1 points by Middleaged (5140) 1 year ago

U have been here for a while. So I'm guessing that you actually know quite a bit of history. You don't post solutions, but most of us here don't. I'm not sure you have ever posted anything yourself. You might hold some big keys to our history, our history with Israel, or our government history. I will put that on the back burner I guess...

You are asking good questions or raising good Issues here. You may have lived through these trends or policies and have real facts to tell us about our country.

I can't do anything with the questions about a US Pseudo Intellectual.

The Age of Enlightenment was over 200 years ago. So, I should apologize for brining it up without a huge backing of documents, references, and published works. But the fact is that every American should be aware of what the Age of Enlightenment was.

I believe you are correct about the believers of the Enlightenment... that they were active before the USA dreamed of Revolution. Do you mind if I call you a Radical Revolutionary?? My sense is that you do not want to be involved in anything radical... or be questioned about being a supporter of the US Constitution.

You are here to teach. I like that. I think you are a good American that has much to offer all of America. teach English. Teach what ever you can to our new Americans or our uneducated Americans. Good Job.

[-] -1 points by Theeighthpieceuv8 (-32) from Seven Sisters, Wales 1 year ago

And more importantly, they should be aware of what it was not. Enlightenment was not the foundation of our country - this is an invention of the pseudo intellectual, the result of academia's secularization. Again, secularization was a sociopolitical power grab because historically our highly educated clerics were the social engineers, our socio-politicians. In the process academia created the social scientist, licensing him as "responsible" with education as his credential. And what is the social scientist? Well, he is a force of opposition. Because his purpose is to examine and differentiate and finally to challenge. If this were not his purpose, he would not exist. And this is self-empowerment. If Washington was the father of our country, then certainly Increase Mather was it's grandfather. These were "enlightened," liberal minded people in the context of the time period. They were "conservative" in their desire to preserve their liberal world view. In fact if we read Mather, and set aside religious concerns, we find that even today we disagree on very few matters. I'm just saying that as Adams himself said, all of Enlightenment philosophy was discarded because they were too "conservative" in their desire to preserve monarchy - they were not liberal-minded "enough."

Actually, there are methods to approach this to more precisely determine what influenced. We can determine their social histories, read their words, wander through their libraries, take note of the books on their shelves, take note of those they discus, those they mention, and those they entirely ignore. Enlightenment philosophy has been highly exaggerated.

Also... if we secularize Mather's writing, we find a writing style that influences to this day. You and I are utilizing it now.

[-] 1 points by Middleaged (5140) 1 year ago

Look we can have a Discussion about US Philosophy, but lets start from beyond 1776 or later when the US Constitution and the Bill of Rights was signed. I appreciate you insight into this matter. Surely there were many people that said many things up to the time that the US signed the Bill of Rights. And you can discuss the period up to the signing of the Geneva Rights.

I find that I have few views and few opinions on all of this. I am a typical American. But if you question me ... then I have opinions and insights into history.

You have a hard Row to hoe... if you are saying that Americans don't know the meaning of Enlightenment, Revolution, and Freedom from Monarchy. Can you really explain your statement??

Okay. So you explain the political though that common Americans should be taxed, abused, held down, targeted by racial or other criteria... and should not be informed of the Federal government plans, federal tax plans, federal corporate tax plans, federal hedge fund tax plans, deregulation of the biggest banks in the land, and ... well I am texting too much here. I know you are a learned man with much to share. I don't mean to denigrate you or your reputation.

The detail with which you have responded is at a higher level than I see in this forum. I will ask that you explain how America had a Revolution without the Age of Enlightenment??

You can't really refute the US Revolution and the Age Of Reason as a Cause.

That sort of makes you look like a fringe thinker.

There are many Reasons for the US Revolution and the Many Revolutions that Followed.

I did not see these Revolutions. But I think the Rule by Monarchy and the granting of Lands & Titles was a Problem. I think the lack of health care was a problem. I think the lack of Educational Opportunities was a Problem.

Because of these Social Issues... I think you are making stuff up or as you say... you know a history that we all don't know. But the problem is the system you defend is the system that did not educate us and kept the history from us ... to benefit the existing shops, powers, businesses, and business managers.

[-] 0 points by Theeighthpieceuv8 (-32) from Seven Sisters, Wales 1 year ago

I can most certainly refute the "Age of Reason." That is a precise example of fallacy. Because reason was alive and well in the minds and words of our first colonial settlers. Your Age of Reason is a reference to Paine, circa the late 1700s. This is the fallacy of secularized academia; it refutes, attempts to obfuscate, even demonizes, the intellectual history of our country and the progression of the cultural mindset. And that's not "truth."

[-] 1 points by Middleaged (5140) 1 year ago

Okay. Sure there must be at least 2-3 sides. But the age of reason was progress in science and thinking. I don't think you are refuting the fact that people are thinking and reasoning better. So what are you saying. You don't say. I think you mean we can interpret the age differently. Okay... well... what? How do we understand the US revolution and the age of enlightenment differently??

[-] 0 points by Theeighthpieceuv8 (-32) from Seven Sisters, Wales 1 year ago

Academia and the British in particular place over emphasis on Enlightenment philosophy and its influence on the Founding Fathers. It's that simple. America's version of freedom, its placement in the philosophical realm, is born directly of the religious community - their classical studies - and their particular form of biblical exegesis which applied to each and every verse: "reason in accordance with the Laws of Nature." "Enlightenment" and the "Age of Reason" are more correctly applied to the Puritan cleric. The Age of Reason was born of religion, not in opposition to religion. It goes beyond this, too, because we can trace the end of monarchy to one very specific passage that empowered and that is this: "Thou shall have none other Gods before me." Taken in conjunction with Judgement Day, where the rich shall meet the poor, and you have a recipe for individualism, "righteousness," and the war on corrupt governance. The Revolution can be traced to perceptions of a single word: "slavery." The colonial feared British slavery. And while the Dec;aration can be said to be both Lockean and Aristotelian one must recognize that both had tremendous influence on the Puritan cleric. Some six to seven generations later, all erupted in conflict. While those such as Jefferson and Washington (Colony of Virginia) had reached the same conclusion - that we would always be slaves to the British - Boston led the way to the War of Rebellion. You cannot separate the cultural mindset of the people, or the birth of the nation, from its religious foundation and hang it on European Enlightenment philosophy because it is one big azzed lie, furthered by those who wish to politically empower themselves as the "educational establishment" through secularization. I was not the only individual to reach these conclusions, btw; there have been a few brilliant historians who reached precisely the same conclusions. It's a matter of tracing the cultural mindset and weighing the veracity of such statements in our study of the Founding Fathers.

[-] 1 points by Middleaged (5140) 1 year ago

I like these kinds of questions and I like to exchange messages with people like you. I still have some learning to do and.. questions help me to go into the research.

So I was going to hammer you with a question: But forgot what the issue was...

Look you are an American. So you are a Liberal. You don't support the British Rules of Heredity, Big established Religion, the Rule of Kings, the Right of the First Child to title, land, assets, money, and everything else.... Surely you understand that if poor people are in the streets looking for work and food.. they will come after the rich people (even without warning from internet searches)

But whatever... that is why we have FEMA and DHS.. to protect the Rich.

Has the Age of Enlightenment been exaggerated??

Well only if you are a dip ship. Which you are not, thank god. We are all Liberals as we recognize the Revolution as a movement away from Conservatives, Monarch Rule, and Neoliberal Economist. Okay, I threw in the part about Neoliberal Economist... big deal. These assholes have destroyed the world with the Ford foundation and with funding of the education of people that would become the Military Junta of all the South American Countries.

Can we get a Mea Culpa from the Chicago University??

[-] -1 points by Theeighthpieceuv8 (-32) from Seven Sisters, Wales 1 year ago

I think you misunderstand. We need to not only define enlightenment but also fully realize its meaning. We begin with a Webster's definition and then move on to etymology. And then we apply thought. The "Age of Enlightenment" in the historical context is highly exaggerated. Rousseau's Social Contract, for example, was not published until 1763 and was completely negated by his support of the "Divine Right of Kings." Enlightenment philosophy was little more than fantasy; it had no influence on the other side whatsoever. And very little here. Because both our "founders" and their descendent "Founders" were already "enlightened." This is nothing but an attempt by academia to self empower as a force in opposition to the established, continuous, generational progression of the cultural mindset.

You mentioned my "purpose." Well I'm not really sure I have a purpose but certainly I am more culturally focused than I am economically focused, or political. And what I have noted is that there are a lot of political terrorists here. But one thing I will never do, is surrender my individualism.

[-] 1 points by Middleaged (5140) 1 year ago

Excellent Response, & provocative response. I just deleted some of my remarks that were in support of your work and you words here. Not sure how to explain this... I like your references to history & our collective history in the USA. I posted else where that perhaps we should anchor on history that is from 1776 or the date of the ratification of the Bill of Rights.

While your remarks on US history are convincing... there is always more than one side in history. Winners and Losers. It is not nice and not pretty.

But I don't want to put you off. Your remarks are good and provocative. Most people don't know our history... including me. In fact the US Government is 80% unknown to the US Voters.

[-] -1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 1 year ago

We all have to Practice Transparency,


Hahahahahahaha.

That's rich.

[-] 1 points by Middleaged (5140) 1 year ago

OMG, Open Your Heart. May Spirit Enter your life and bring you the highest and best good.

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 1 year ago

OMG. My you get hit by a Mack truck.

[-] 2 points by Middleaged (5140) 1 year ago

And it is a Love Revolution. Boom.