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Forum Post: Punk vs. Sharia

Posted 8 months ago on Feb. 28, 2014, 1:23 p.m. EST by shoozTroll (17632)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

http://www.vice.com/music-world/punk-vs-sharia

Freedom in Indonesia.

It's another World out there.

111 Comments

111 Comments


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[-] 5 points by shadz66 (19985) 7 months ago

"Israel’s War on American Universities", by Chris Hedges :

Excerpt : ''The ADL-designed indoctrination classes for university activists are, according to those who have been required to take them, shabby attempts to equate any criticism of Israel with anti-Semitism.''

So on this clearly ''Clash Of Civilisations'' (Copyright: Samuel Huntington, AIPAC, PNAC et al) themed forum-post - it seems appropriate to append the above as well as to ask (tho' perhaps hypothetically in the absence of any reply): What War ? Whose War On Who ? Who's Wanting War ? To What Ends ?

et cui bono ?

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[-] 4 points by shadz66 (19985) 7 months ago

"Why I Must Speak Out On Israel, Palestine And BDS'', by Roger Waters (Pink Floyd) :

http://www.salon.com/2014/03/17/roger_waters_why_i_must_speak_out_on_israel_palestine_and_bds/

Nope .. I know where Indonesia is and quite a bit about its culture but please feel free to expound on its ''importance'' & for who btw ?! So, what's wrong with my sources ?!! Not conservative enough for you ?!!!

fiat lux ...

[-] 2 points by JGriff99mph (507) 7 months ago

haha

[-] 5 points by shadz66 (19985) 7 months ago

To be honest 'confusion' was more my initial reaction at snooz' comment but I get why you guffaw. I am getting very concerned as to where The Old Cons and 'Neocons' are taking us all. If my sources are too liberal or progressive for him and to be impugned - then we can let him impugn the following but none of us should be blind to or quite about - War Drum Beaters.

fiat pax ...

[-] 5 points by Renneye (4004) 7 months ago

It's hard to believe what I just witnessed. Although, it shouldn't be, at this point.

You asked why your longer post from yesterday had been removed, only to have your question removed, as well.

I too, would like an answer as to why your longer, very relevant and poignant post was removed. I read it yesterday with interest, and can see no conceivable reason as to why it would have been removed.

You have my full support here on the forum, Shadz.

The bellicose and self-serving nature of the moderation...in the way of removal and harassing of independent thinkers with opposing views is not lost on those of us who are paying attention.

~~

Miko Peled's ongoing, tireless and dedicated efforts on dispelling myths and unifying Palestinians and Israelis. What a brave person he is.

http://mikopeled.com/

https://twitter.com/mikopeled

~~

Thank you, Shadz...for your tireless and dedicated efforts to humanity. Your intelligent, comprehensive, often humourous, and humanity-loving posts fill these pages...and we're all the wiser for having your positive energy here. Your efforts since the beginning and hopefully continued, are profoundly appreciated.

Solidarity

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[-] 2 points by JGriff99mph (507) 7 months ago

I prefer the side of the war machine that speaks to my values best :)

[-] 3 points by shadz66 (19985) 7 months ago

Hmmm. Deep. Re. dot connection, also please consider :

fiat justitia ...

[-] 2 points by JGriff99mph (507) 7 months ago

I love how people claim that we cannot close Gitmo without funding, yet an all out attack on Libya half way across the world was more than feasible.

Banks get bailed out, we get sold out (I shouldnt say that too loud)...

[-] 5 points by shadz66 (19985) 7 months ago

The novelist John Grisham re. 'Gitmo' :

Bottom line ... WAR is good for Banksters & 'Gitmo' on Cuba's southern coast is a total fkn aberration, as was NATO's War on Libya ... and The Entire World knows it !!! So much for 'rule of law' !! Sad Sigh !

spero meliora ...

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[-] 5 points by shadz66 (19985) 7 months ago

'Shilling for Neocons' is ''the subject at hand'' as far as I'm concerned but if you had envisaged a different raison d'etre for your ambiguous forum-post, you should endeavour to be clearer. Your link is interesting to me personally for several different reasons but I'm unsure what Polish kids with disabilities, has to do with anything here. Perhaps this link would be a far more appropriate follow up to Roger Waters' piece :

Of course, whether you're a 'Mick' or otherwise, I still have no idea about what your Gaelic might mean - but ''chucky ar la'' nevertheless ;-)

ad iudicium ...

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[-] 6 points by shadz66 (19985) 7 months ago

If ''Shilling for Neocons'' is not ''the subject at hand'', then pray tell us - what is ?!!! I replied below much more closely in line with your forum-post re. the ''razorcake.org'' piece about 'Punk Culture' in Indonesia but you did not really want to know, did you ?!! Taking his cue from you I assume, ZD was the first to respond here and I engaged him accordingly (and where you joined in re 'Iranian Jews') - but dare you reread that exchange below now ... never mind peruse the links therein ?!

Talking of links, wtf do yours above have to do with either the forum-post or the thread ? What did your forum-post have to do with OWS for that matter ? Your link immediately above is very good and more in keeping with OWS but what it is its relevance here on this thread of your making, right now ? What was the relevance of the link about disabled Polish kids and the difficulties their parents are going through ?

Both your links are important but your purpose in deploying them has nothing whatsoever to do with the people and predicaments in those stories - but everything to do with your clear efforts to squirm, dodge and obfuscate the issues that you don't have the wit or courage to explain. Also I think that you thought your ''libcom.org'' link was employed because you initially and erroneously thought it was about Britain because you think I should stick to UK issues and leave you to ply your gate keeping propaganda here. However, if I'm a pain in your neck ; stone in your shoe &/or boot up your ass - then I'm happy to be so.

YOU, created this forum post ; You, are the one who is less than clear re. wtf it is about ; you, were the one who was slow to reply to ZD's take and tangent (if indeed it was such) and so I took him on & now - u, are the one who is squirming here and still employing your strange and cryptic Gaelic epithets but I'm none the clearer wtf u are on about.

I don't go with Neocon Shills, Blind Apologists for Likudnik Zionism or US Empire nor DNC Gatekeepers - and I won't be standing by quietly if and when that happens here on this Pro-99%, OWS forum. There are definitely some very big foreign policy issues which need exposure but one-sided and misguided, propagandist shilling will be exposed and opposed by me and others. I'll end now by appending the following and wondering IF you've got what it takes to read it :

''It’s time to do the right thing. It’s time for the American people to lead the world in the right direction, in a moral direction. It’s time to stop treating people like garbage. It’s time to dismantle the U.S. Empire.''

Now go on .. go look very closely at the source and after the reactionary electrical storm fires in your head and you start sprouting faux shock and parDisan horror at ''LibeRtarians'' .. do feel free to come back at me with the 100th comment on this thread - but don't lose sight of ZD's 1st comment either ! This thread is more in keeping with GF's infamous ''Mandela Legislator'' thread (link below in my to and fro with ZD) imo !! Now it too can go down in infamy ... ''infamy, Infamy - they've all got it INFAMY'' !!! + :

e tenebris, lux ...

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[-] 7 points by shadz66 (19985) 7 months ago

In the absence of any clarity on your part, we can only speculate and wonder as to wtf you are pushing here but tho' it's waaay past my bedtime now, re. your first link above ... are you seriously now bringing up the ''reality'' of Syria here too ?! If so, then let's perhaps start by considering :

''Let’s remember that this brutal war was begun by the Western Powers and Saudis, is financed by them, and could be stopped at anytime if Washington and Riyadh give the order.

''In 2011, fighting erupted after demonstrations against the government of President Bashar al-Assad. Many Syrians were fed up with the brutal, 40-year Assad dynastic dictatorship and domination by Assad’s Alawi minority.

''Western intelligence used techniques developed in Georgia, Ukraine, Iran, Libya, Turkey (unsuccessfully) and Egypt to convert public anger into demonstrations. The Assad government’s typically heavy-handed response turned a local problem into spreading civil war.

''Most of the uprising against Damascus began on the borders with Lebanon and Jordan, from where US, British, French and Saudi intelligence services organized, trained, and financed anti-Assad groups. Turkish intelligence, MIT, also fuelled the uprising in the north.'' & ...

''Today, Syria is in ruins. It joins Afghanistan and Iraq [and Libya] who also defied the will of the United States, and paid the price.''

~

I don't know wtf you think my ''community'' should be limited to but it is ever more clearer as to who you think is not part of yours and from your second link : ''As regular visitors to this website are aware, ICLA is primarily concerned about human rights abuses rooted in sharia religious laws.'' No Gitmo then, huh ?

So to end with a fair & straight question here shooz : What are your actual views on the whole ''Clash Of Civilisations'' Imperial raison d'etre and casus belli rationale, as postulated by Samuel Huntington et al ?

respice, adspice, prospice ...

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[-] 7 points by shadz66 (19985) 7 months ago

Seriously ?!!! You're wondering about li'l ol' me ?!! I'd have thought it'd be fairly obvious by now, after over 30 months on the forum, ffs !

I am a Socialist and for Universal Human Values - irrespective of any class, colour or creed & for .. Anti-Racism ; Anti-War ; Anti-Imperialism ; Anti-Neoliberal, 1%, 'Washington Consensus' , 'Chicago School', 'Austrian', 'Austerity Economics' & for a much fairer, more sustainable, less rapacious - human society.

I looked at both your links in your comment above and your real reasons for referencing Punk Culture in Indonesia and 'Metalhead Music' in Syria remain unclear and I personally prefer Punk to Metal but I was touched by the reference to the Syrian Oud Teacher's taste for 'Metallica'. I collect old vinyl records and have a wide taste, from Gregorian Chant, The Blues to 'Techno' & from many, many points in between :

However, there are some seriously important matters which now deserve even more attention, imo. For example, and in critique of Pro-War & Neocon Imperial propaganda from both the UK's BBC (The 'Bush BLiar Contagion' ?!) and 'The Guardian' newspaper, please consider :

That last video is pretty shocking (even for me) and these are dangerous times shooz and though your Gaelic remains as obscure as ever .. I do find myself all the more clearer about you - especially in your refusal to address the very basic question that I posed to you above. Ho hum and hint - you need to turn off the Corporate MSM & de-program yourself, maybe starting with the 3/25 piece in the 3rd link below !!

ad iudicium ...

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[-] 5 points by shadz66 (19985) 7 months ago

Wow, you got it Sherlock !!! There's no fooling you - but ''who's zoomin' who'' here, I wonder ?!! Have you ever heard of 'transference or projection' etc. btw ?!

Fairy Nuff, I 'fess up to my Pro-99%, Universalist ''agenda'' ! If you think you detect otherwise and wanna call B-S ... then grow a pair and call it !! Meanwhile, I'll still have you down as shilling for Neocon Culture Wars ; apologising for Likudnik Zionism and US Empire & gatekeeping for the DNC to boot ... until such time as you are able to prove otherwise of course !!!

The http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/ stands or falls on its own and has done so since 2001 but unsurprisingly (for me anyway) you, ZD & GF have BIG problems with it. Re. your favoured site of choice (on this thread at least lol) you may want to look into its millionaire founder, its take on 'apolitics' as well as such concepts as ''Immersion Journalism'' and ''Creative Nonfiction'' & also possibly ask .. cui bono ?

I was yet again, rather interested in your link & your 'motivation for deployment' lol. Pakistan, is a 1% or more precisely a 0.01%, owned 'feudal fuck up of a country' - created more for reasons of a creed and a religion (with only 1 modern parallel btw !) & The 99% there, are more downtrodden than in most places.

It has been badly ruled by right wing populists, Right Wing Feudalists or RIGHT WING Military Dictators since its inception. It is and ever has been, a major ally and asset and in the pocket of The US of A and The 'K of SA' from Cold War to Hot War and beyond too and as a direct result .. it is pretty fukt up and I do not need your b-s 1%er link to work that shit out.

Your problem - as ever, is I open and read your links and respond accordingly, whereas you either dare not or can't admit to, opening mine. It matters not a jot tho' snooz - because in truth and logic, I'm only ever talking through u, around you and beyond You.

I am well aware of shades of grey snooz .. but I never lose clear sight of 'black AND white' either and to call me ''anti-music'' or say that ''it bores'' me is just so funny that I'm gonna have to bring that comment up to practically everyone who knows me, lolololol.

verum ex absurdo et ars gratia artis ...

===========================================================================

BELOW IS THE REPLY YOU COULD NOT HANDLE AND SO DECIDED TO REMOVE AND CENSOR

===========================================================================

You ''know exactly where'' Israel's bad PR comes from and that's the actions of its governments & the treatment of Christian and Muslim Palestinians ; the Bedouins and non-jewish immigrants - as well as the ever more strident move to the political Right Wing. That is where it has its ''roots'' and you know it to be so, as shown by people like Netanyahu, Lieberman, Naftali Bennet etc.People of the political left have seen clean through 'liberal' not to mention 'conservative' apologising for the inherent contradictions within Zionism. Some of the most clear critiques of Israel come from people of Judaic heritage and you also know that to be true. I'll be a ''partisan'' for The 99% & Democracy but coming from u, it's weird, lol.

This was your forum-post and thread and it went the way it did because ZD - taking his cue from you it seems, replied as he did. Neocon hopes for Culture Wars and the issues touched upon here will not go away because they are clearly contrary to the concept of Universal Human Rights and strike at exactly the same chords as Apartheid Era South Africa .. which also tried to claim that it was a 'democracy' & play the victim and stifle any debate or criticism. It just does not work any more to hurl ''anti-semite'' or ''racist'' at anyone who tries to question Israel's behaviour and Jewish voices are right at the forefront of this struggle. Democracy & Universal Human Rights are my ''agenda'' and The ICH can speak for itself.

Your links are what they are.Only you know what relevance the story of the 19 year old cervical cancer victim has here though. There is a debate going on in the UK as to if Cervical Cancer Screening should be carried out for the young too and that tragedy goes right to the very heart of that matter. However, it is just not possible to see what relevance that has here - unless of course it's because you think that I should only speak to matters in the UK. Hmmm.

Your HuffPo link was more relevant though.Rabbi Shmuley Boteach (who also had some connection to Michael Jackson !) was the Chabad Lubavitcher representative in Oxford, UK & he ended up with some serious issues between the British Jewish Community and himself. He resents the existence and facts of any criticism of Israel as well as any 'dilution' of Jewish Identity by 'marrying out' etc.& he also thinks British people of Judaic heritage should be much more like him, as he apparently thinks that ''American Jewry believes in Israel's righteousness, goodness and commitment to justice'' and that it is ''those who seek Israel's demonization, who are the real enemy.'' I do have some memories of Dutch Reform Church ministers once speaking just like this, so a 'HuffPo link for a HuffPo link' seems fair enough to me now :

You don't get to say that I ''don't give a fuck about kids in Indonesia, Pakistan and Syria'' ... as though you do, and in total ignorance of people I have known and do know from all of those places !! Times are changing and we live in an ever more interconnected world. We all need more democracy and Universal Human Rights wherever we are. ALL Plutocracies, Kleptocracies, Oligarchies, Absolute Monarchies, Neoliberal Corporatocracies and all such anti-democratic forces need to be exposed and opposed.

Furthermore ... ''Mr Obama and Mr Kerry have set out a convincing scenario that in the longer term Israel will find itself shunned by the world. The Palestinian leadership will advance its cause at the UN, while conversely grassroots movements inside and outside Palestine will begin clamouring for a single state guaranteeing equality between Israeli Jews and Palestinians. Israel’s vehement and aggressive opposition on both fronts will only serve to damage its image – and its relations with the US.

''An unexpected voice backing the one-state solution emerged last week when Tareq Abbas, the Palestinian president’s 48-year-old son, told the New York Times that a struggle for equal rights in a single state would be the “easier, peaceful way”.

''Bolstering Washington’s argument that such pressures cannot be held in check for ever, a poll this month of US public opinion revealed a startling finding. Despite a US political climate committed to a two-state solution, nearly two-thirds of Americans back a single democratic state for Jews and Palestinians should a Palestinian state prove unfeasible. That view is shared by more than half of Israel’s supporters in the US.

''That would constitute a paradigm shift, a moment of reckoning that draws nearer by the day as the peace process again splutters into irrelevance.'' Excerpted from :

Finally, I confess that I did not open your last link because ''Fascism'' has its real roots in Extreme Nationalism and the fusion of The State with Corporations and the creation of a Totalitarian Military-Industrial-Security-Banking Complex & I think that there'd be really nothing gained by going there !

veritas vos liberabit et ergo pacem in terris ...

~

Edit - April'14, NB : http://hnn.us/blog/153326

[+] -6 points by shoozTroll (17632) 7 months ago

Yes, I know exactly where it comes from.

I've heard such anti Israeli sentiments for some time now.

It always has roots in a particular "politic".

Thanks for admitting your your unabashed partisanship.

Thanks for continuing to ignore true human interest.

There are NO shades of gray with with you.

Just a constant refusal of your own community.

For instance.

http://aattp.org/after-being-denied-simple-diagnostic-test-19-year-old-dies-of-cervical-cancer/

Or the Israelis

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rabbi-shmuley-boteach/apologists-for-israel-hat_b_4240247.html

I get that you don't give a fuck about kids in Indonesia, Pakistan and Syria.

It doesn't fit in your agenda, nor the agenda of the "clearinghouse".

Clear is correct. Clear of reason.

I like how you resort to name calling, like all of the right wingers before you.

Macántacht nach bhfuil, laistigh tú.

In closing.

https://occupywallst.org/forum/this-what-fascism-looks-like/

Watch in horror, as the right wing bots vote your repetitive trash up.

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[-] -3 points by shoozTroll (17632) 7 months ago

Isn't it though?

Almost as interesting as all the comments here. that completely ignore religious intolerance in other areas of the world.

[-] 3 points by johannus (59) from Newburgh, NY 8 months ago

Yes' "It's another World out there."

"Israel Killing Palestinians With Impunity."

http://www.popularresistance.org/report-israel-killing-palestinians-with-impunity/

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[-] 4 points by flip (7174) 8 months ago

time to study history - Chomsky on camp david - Since the issue of Palestinian national rights in a Palestinian state reached the agenda of diplomacy in the mid-1970s, "the prime obstacle to its realization", unambiguously, has been the US government, with the NYT staking a claim to be second on the list. That has been clear ever since January 1976, when Syria introduced a resolution to the UN Security Council calling for a two-state settlement. The resolution incorporated the crucial wording of UN 242 -- the basic document, all agree. It accorded to Israel the rights of any state in the international system, alongside of a Palestinian state in the territories Israel had conquered in 1967. The resolution was vetoed by the US. It was supported by the leading Arab states. Arafat's PLO condemned "the tyranny of the veto". There were some abstentions on technicalities.

By then, a two-state settlement in these terms had become a very broad international consensus, blocked only by the US (and rejected by Israel). So matters continued, not only in the Security Council but also in the General Assembly, which passed similar resolutions regularly by votes like 150-2 (with the US sometimes picking up another client state). The US also blocked similar initiatives from Europe and the Arab states.

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[-] 6 points by flip (7174) 8 months ago

different year same story as you should know if you are part of this movement and not a mainstream democratic party hack - here is Chomsky AGAIN - and note this line - time to join the "real world" -In the real world, the primary barrier to the "emerging vision" has been, and remains, unilateral US rejectionism -

Red Pepper, May, 2002

A year ago, Hebrew University sociologist Baruch Kimmerling observed that "What we feared has come true." Jews and Palestinians are "regressing to superstitious tribalism... War appears an unavoidable fate," an "evil colonial" war. After Israel's invasion of the refugee camps this year his colleague Ze'ev Sternhell wrote that "In colonial Israel...human life is cheap." The leadership is "no longer ashamed to speak of war when what they are really engaged in is colonial policing, which recalls the takeover by the white police of the poor neighborhoods of the blacks in South Africa during the apartheid era." Both stress the obvious: there is no symmetry between the "ethno-national groups" regressing to tribalism. The conflict is centered in territories that have been under harsh military occupation for 35 years. The conqueror is a major military power, acting with massive military, economic and diplomatic support from the global superpower. Its subjects are alone and defenseless, many barely surviving in miserable camps, currently suffering even more brutal terror of a kind familiar in "evil colonial wars" and now carrying out terrible atrocities of their own in revenge. The Oslo "peace process" changed the modalities of the occupation, but not the basic concept. Shortly before joining the Ehud Barak government, historian Shlomo Ben-Ami wrote that "the Oslo agreements were founded on a neo-colonialist basis, on a life of dependence of one on the other forever." He soon became an architect of the US-Israel proposals at Camp David in Summer 2000, which kept to this condition. These were highly praised in US commentary. The Palestinians and their evil leader were blamed for their failure and the subsequent violence. But that is outright "fraud," as Kimmerling reported, along with all other serious commentators.

True, Clinton-Barak advanced a few steps towards a Bantustan-style settlement. Just prior to Camp David, West Bank Palestinians were confined to over 200 scattered areas, and Clinton-Barak did propose an improvement: consolidation to three cantons, under Israeli control, virtually separated from one another and from the fourth enclave, a small area of East Jerusalem, the center of Palestinian life and of communications in the region. In the fifth canton, Gaza, the outcome was left unclear except that the population were also to remain virtually imprisoned. It is understandable that maps are not to be found in the US mainstream, or any of the details of the proposals.

No one can seriously doubt that the US role will continue to be decisive. It is therefore of crucial importance to understand what that role has been, and how it is internally perceived. The version of the doves is presented by the editors of the NY Times (7 April), praising the President's "path-breaking speech" and the "emerging vision" he articulated. Its first element is "ending Palestinian terrorism," immediately. Some time later comes "freezing, then rolling back, Jewish settlements and negotiating new borders" to end the occupation and allow the establishment of a Palestinian state. If Palestinian terror ends, Israelis will be encouraged to "take the Arab League's historic offer of full peace and recognition in exchange for an Israeli withdrawal more seriously." But first Palestinian leaders must demonstrate that they are "legitimate diplomatic partners."

The real world has little resemblance to this self-serving portrayal -- virtually copied from the 1980s, when the US and Israel were desperately seeking to evade PLO offers of negotiation and political settlement while keeping to the demand that there will be no negotiations with the PLO, no "additional Palestinian state..." (Jordan already being a Palestinian state), and "no change in the status of Judea, Samaria and Gaza other than in accordance with the basic guidelines of the [Israeli] Government" (the May 1989 Peres-Shamir coalition plan, endorsed by Bush I in the Baker plan of Dec. 1989). All of this remained unpublished in the US mainstream, as regularly before, while commentary denounced the Palestinians for their single-minded commitment to terror, undermining the humanistic endeavors of the US and its allies.

In the real world, the primary barrier to the "emerging vision" has been, and remains, unilateral US rejectionism. There is little new in the "Arab League's historic offer." It repeats the basic terms of a Security Council Resolution of January 1976 backed by virtually the entire world, including the leading Arab states, the PLO, Europe, the Soviet bloc -- in fact, everyone who mattered. It was opposed by Israel and vetoed by the US, thereby vetoing it from history. The Resolution called for a political settlement on the internationally-recognized borders "with appropriate arrangements...to guarantee...the sovereignty, territorial integrity, and political independence of all states in the area and their right to live in peace within secure and recognized borders" -- in effect, a modification of UN 242 (as officially interpreted by the US as well), amplified to include a Palestinian state. Similar initiatives from the Arab states, the PLO, and Europe have since been blocked by the US and mostly suppressed or denied in public commentary.

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[-] 6 points by flip (7174) 8 months ago

classic - when you cannot refute the facts you start throwing little tantrums. did you learn that watching fox news? I think you take direction from the "gang of 3" - looks to me like they are maoist types who shill for Obama and the dems. well maybe that is not true, you don't seem to have much direction other than an obsession with foul language and a lack of understanding of history. why not post stuff on that stupid duck show blog or maybe ted nugent has a fan club.

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[-] 6 points by flip (7174) 8 months ago

one trick pony - and about as bright. but at least you have people feeling sorry for you now

[-] 2 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 8 months ago

that's just mean for the sake of mean

thanks for caring

[-] 5 points by flip (7174) 8 months ago

let me see if I understand this correctly - he calls me a motherfucker and I am mean?? is that what you are saying?

[-] 0 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 8 months ago

that statement is mean for the sake of being mean

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[-] 3 points by johannus (59) from Newburgh, NY 7 months ago

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."...Edmund Burke

Ironically the Jews should know that better than most people.

Support the B, D & S of Israel. Edit; The link

http://www.bdsmovement.net/

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[-] -2 points by shoozTroll (17632) 8 months ago

Ah yes, the perfect excuse to abuse children in Indonesia, in the name of God, Allah, or whatever they're calling him these days..

After all, they shouldn't be allowed to write and sing their own songs, or even find their own way in life..

You must surely love that sort of thing.

[-] 5 points by flip (7174) 8 months ago

very weak response to the comment about Israelis. you do know the greatest sin in the bible - hypocrisy! you complain about the crimes of others and ignore or justify those of your friends. same

[+] -6 points by shoozTroll (17632) 8 months ago

Weaker still, is your response, to a response that had absolutely NOTHING to do with kids being abused in Indonesia.

Zip.

Nada.

Nothing.

That part of the World doesn't matter to you?

[-] 4 points by flip (7174) 8 months ago

well if I were you I would not talk about putting up something that has no bearing on the subject - you do it plenty. now address the point or stop

[-] 4 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 8 months ago

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[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 8 months ago

the fanatic always opposes the fanatic in Illuminati

[-] -1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 8 months ago

Or the Middle East?

And on FLAKESnews?

And now? The Ukraine?

Maybe they're all Bilderberg?

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[-] -1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 8 months ago

And you'll also notice, one conse(R)vative or another voted me down for saying it.

That somehow or another, in their way of thinking, what happens in the Middle East, or Mississippi, for that matter, is valid reason for abusing children elsewhere.

In some cases? They even abuse adults. As in Uganda, or Texas.

[-] 7 points by flip (7174) 8 months ago

oh, and one more thing - you mention voting - who cares? voting up and down - how silly. what matters is the truth not voting - here and in the real world. where is jack nicholison when you need him - "YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!"

[+] -5 points by shoozTroll (17632) 8 months ago

No. It's you who refuses to handle the truth.

Actually, all of this is about religious intolerance.

In all of these comments, there's not a single word of support for those kids in Indonesia.

My guess?

You're so fucking intolerant, and agenda driven you couldn't bring yourself to even so much a entertain the truth, or watch the independently produced video, choosing instead to use your intolerance in yet another attempt to smear me.

Just so long as you can ignore the truth.

[-] 6 points by flip (7174) 8 months ago

now now, let's try to be more civil or I will call the moderator! my agenda is clear - I am against injustice anywhere and everywhere. that said I am more concerned with the crimes of my government - those which I have some control over. also those which our friends commit with our money and support - like Israel in case you were not sure. you seem to be more concerned with the crimes of our official enemies - if I am incorrect about that please explain why it seems that way - and be nice about it!

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[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 8 months ago

muslim terrorist is trending in #MSN

that's anti-Semitism right there.

those people from that region are terrorists

[-] 6 points by flip (7174) 8 months ago

you do realize that is not the point at all - or maybe you don't. you complain about the terrible things in the world. you point your finger at all the shit being done to innocent people by china, Russia, radical islam anybody and everybody except the one thing you have a bit of control over. the one thing you have responsibility for - your government! your tax dollars fund the disgusting Israeli occupation. your tax dollars send drones around the world to blow up wedding parties. your tax dollars - and your vote (!) support coups in central and south America but you have nothing to say. not one word except hail to the chief and salute the flag. it is a very simple thought - can you respond to it with some sort of direct answer - doubtful. call out the official enemies - putin, iran, MUSLIMS - complain about poor Tibet but never what Obama does in your name - with your taxes and with your FULL SUPPORT.

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[-] 1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 8 months ago

We might want to move quickly on that. Before Comcast has a pay per view, where they toss us in that bag.

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[-] 7 points by shadz66 (19985) 8 months ago

Here's your image: http://occupywallst.org/forum/allah-akbar/ in more ways than one considering that I've seen your blog and your beard lol. I can recall when Andres Serrano's ''Piss Christ'' was around to annoy & hurt Christians' feelings but no doubt u approve of that too and btw such cartoons with racist caricatures existed in the 1920's and 1930's too - but were then directed at a different group of people.

Your juxtaposition of links and interesting comment here is rather curious and revealing, I think. Your embedded ''three wars'' link has ''Source: Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs'' at the bottom of it btw and are this ''Clash Of Civilisations'' themed posts and comments, a hasbara exercise timed just because AIPAC is in DC right now (1st March,'14), lol ?

As per snooz' comment, how far away are ''Religious Intolerance'' & ''Intolerance Of Religion'' I wonder ?

fiat lux ...

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[-] 6 points by shadz66 (19985) 8 months ago

On what is the ''absolute right to exist'' of Israel based ? What are the possibilities of turning the present Palestinian Bantustans - into a viable independent country ? What are your thoughts about a bi-national, secular, non-race or religion based One State, for all citizens ?

I now believe that a real question will increasingly become (if it's not done so already) Is The Two State Solution Really Still Viable ? The abject gradual reduction of Palestinians into what can only be called 'Bantustans' leads me and I'm sure others, to wonder as to what would happen if Palestinians dropped all ambitions and pretences towards an unviable separate state - and simply demanded their full, legal, human and democratic rights in the land of their and their forefathers' birth, in a - Bi-national One State not based on race or religion.

I can also assure you that I have no wish or hope ''to preserve conflict'' and of course .. ''there can be no excuse for the targeted assassination of artists'' .. or anyone else. ''For the record'', I'm not a Zionist nor do I have any emotional attachment to Israel .. and I regard South Africa as the definitive paradigm for a just and enduring solution but please don't accuse me of being 'anti-semitic' in any reply. Thanx and fyi :

ad iudicium ...

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[-] 5 points by shadz66 (19985) 8 months ago

That's a Biblically Based Answer I think - which is just why I asked the question in the first place really. Your emotional response and implicit selective history, ignores the facts of the Resident Population (in Biblical times & more recently) and that the majority of people with Judaic heritage actually live outside of Israel, eg. it's said that their are more people of Judaic heritage living in NY State than in Israel itself.

Your embedded link (''three wars'') was via Boston, MA & there's much such uncritical support for Israel in The USA & also a very large portion of Israel's citizens, are dual passport holders. Consider that two 'wrongs' (Historic European Homicidal Judeophobia and The Shoah) do NOT make a 'right' (The Nakba), unless one believes that 'might is right' ... and even then it's still wrong and unjust and the total inability and unwillingness to acknowledge any injustice done to The Palestinians, is really very telling and sad.

Furthermore, it's NEVER going to be a question that the present race & religion based Apartheid State will ever be threatened militarily, as it is a hyper-militarised, nuclear armed state ... but oppressed and occupied people have a legally enshrined right to resist and nothing you or I say or do can obviate that. Israel's future as a pariah state is now assured, as BDS etc. takes even deeper hold across the world, which is of course why hasbara is so important to Israel as it too sees the South African parallels now.

Finally - it would be a total canard to assume or portray that all people of Judaic heritage approve of the measures, manipulations and manoeuvres of The Zionist State and I can find you any number of Jewish critics of Israel from Professors Chomsky, Pappe, Finkelstein at one end, to individual Jewish people of deep and universal conscience - both religious (eg. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VcjNJacDvPo and http://www.jewsnotzionists.org/ ) and secular (eg. http://mondoweiss.net/ ); civilian ( http://jfjfp.com/ and http://mikopeled.com/ ) & ... military ( http://www.breakingthesilence.org.il/ ), so I will refrain from further specificities here right now but for The Standing Record, I will cross link to these threads :

In conclusion, re. AIPAC - I quote Medea Benjamin from the 'HuffPo' link in a previous response, further ^up this thread^ [ http://www.huffingtonpost.com/medea-benjamin/israel-lobby-aipac_b_4876388.html ] :

''Israel is the 27th richest country in world, but thanks to AIPAC, it gets more U.S. taxdollars than any other country. At a time when the foreign aid budget is being slashed, keeping the lion's share of foreign assistance for Israel means taking funds from critical programs to feed, provide shelter and offer emergency assistance to the world's poorest people.

''The bottom line is that AIPAC, which is a de facto agent for a foreign government, has influence on U.S. policy out of all proportion to the number of Americans who support its policies. When a small group like this has disproportionate power, that hurts everyone, including Israelis and American Jews. From stopping a catastrophic war with Iran to finally solving the Israel/Palestine conflict, an essential starting point is breaking AIPAC's grip on U.S. policy. Join us by sending a message to AIPAC today.''

fiat lux ; fiat justitia ; fiat pax ...

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[-] 5 points by shadz66 (19985) 8 months ago

Thanx for your intellectually cogent, non-emotional reply.Your lumping together all ''Arabs'' is telling. Do u take such a view with 'Europeans' or 'Africans', I wonder ?! Finally, your extremely selective historical perspective - can NOT go unchallenged however, ergo I recommend the ''Al Nakba'' videos copied to GF on her ''Mandela Legislator'' forum-post & I also append here for your later calm and cool consideration :

e tenebris, lux ...

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[-] 6 points by shadz66 (19985) 8 months ago

“Don’t turn your face away.

Once you’ve seen, you can no longer act like you don’t know.

Open your eyes to the truth. It’s all around you.

Don’t deny what the eyes to your soul have revealed to you.

~

Now that you know, you cannot feign ignorance.

Now that you’re aware of the problem, you cannot pretend you don’t care.

To be concerned is to be human.

To act is to care.”

(Vashti Quiroz-Vega)

Please calm down & during this 100th anniversary of WW1 - try to reflect on where the vast majority of human suffering has come from in just this last one hundred years. It may not fit well with your Samuel Huntington, Neocon inspired thesis but right up to 1948 - Jewish people lived for many, many centuries in peace and safety throughout the Islamic world, from Casablanca to Kabul, Yalta to Yemen - & it was the Muslim Turks who gave sanctuary to Shephardic people from the Iberian Peninsula & there are still many thousands of people of Judaic heritage, culture and confession .. who are still living in Iran today !!!

Btw, does '''what is the primary function of any government? it is to destroy any credible threat that rises against it'' .. apply to everyone or JUST The U$A & Israel ?! You leave me a li'l speechless with that lol !!

Finally re.chauvinistic, exclusivist, right-wing, self-righteous zealotry - Muslims don't have the monopoly on that - but serious questions should be directed at The Arch US Allies, The Wahabi Fundamentalists of The Kingdom of Saudi Arabia who are fomenting much chaos, and not just simply for their own ends !

The KSA and the other despotic Gulf regimes are also major recipients of US weaponry btw & now their activities help to sustain The US MIC, especially now that 'Totalitarian Communism' is being replaced by a rolling, endless 'War On Terror' as its casus belli and raison d'etre du nos jours.

Solidarity with The 99% - whoever they are ; wherever they are ... and whatever G_d they think they are worshipping ... because in the long run, whoever and wherever .. our Karma will run over our dogma ~*~

fiat lux et fiat pax ...

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[-] 7 points by shadz66 (19985) 7 months ago

''I would cut the throat of every single man, woman, and child, from the Mediterranean to the Hindu Kush, that stood between me, and security for my family. There would be a river and it would run red mutherfuker''

Ooooh, aren't yoU the hyper-violent, emotional, toilet mouthed 'ZionDog' !!!

Your desperate and shrill attempts to link Palestinians to Nazis seem to show that u have no fkn idea whatsoever - just how many co-opted fools, accommodators, quislings and fellow travellers, with Nazi Germany there were in USUK and some other very strange places, where u just would not want to go (cf. The Baltic Sates and Ukraine etc. et al) !!

Finally, as per your comment and links, u seem to be utterly unable to see certain present day parallels and historical ironies and seem quite happy to make Palestinians keep paying for those unconscionable crimes of Europeans !

Ergo (and just for starters ''mthrfkr'') consider the following and rest assured, I have other links to come :

Furthermore, while your link {''three wars''} from http://www.jcrcboston.org/ had ''Source: Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs'' at the end of it and also as it really appears to me - that the very existence of many thousands of people of Judaic heritage, culture and confession in Iran was a bit of a revelation to your mate snooz - what should we infer from the nature of both your links ?! Are we really to consider them as .. ''unbiased and objective'' somehow ?!! Hmmm, lol and sigh !!! Finally, consider :

Celebrated Israeli historian, Prof. Ilan Pappe whose landmark publication, "The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine" - documented the planned removal of 700,000+ Palestinians from their lands in 1948 - has written a new book "The Forgotten Palestinians". In the book and also at this September 16th 2012 community meeting at Sydney University, Pappe reveals the situation for the Palestinians who still live within Israel's borders (and whether u like it or not, that also de facto includes The West Bank & Gaza).

fiat justitia ...

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[-] 7 points by shadz66 (19985) 7 months ago

Re.''resistance to tyranny'' yes, please do feel free to ''review precisely'' what you said about it - or about anything else !

You started with ''resistance'' but then ended with questioning 'quiescence with' Nazis, in an attempt to slur & tar and feather a whole ethnic group and nationality but do we do that to Germans and Austrians these days ?!!

Then you've declaimed that you .. ''would cut the throat of every single man, woman, and child, from the Mediterranean to the Hindu Kush, that stood between me, and security for my family (&) there would be a river and it would run red'' - but of course your affected homicidal ire is only geographically reserved for a particular group of people ... while ignoring the historic perpetrators of the real violence against Jewish populations !!!

Quiescence, accommodation and collaboration with Nazis came from many sources - and people such as Lord Halifax in the UK and Prescott Bush in the USA rightly stand accused of that but your attempts to slur Palestinians with it while totally ignoring or being ignorant of - the same from others, just can't go unchallenged :

This is old history and not really relevant to our times and I only raise it for context and balance .. but snooz' attempt to finesse and finagle the issue of Jewish people in Iran is really much more important. Therefore instead of biased sources, perhaps we really ought to allow some Iranian Jews to speak for themselves :

After all, despite the etymology of the word - where is it ''paradise'' for any of the 99% anywhere in the world today ?

pax et lux ...

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[-] 5 points by shadz66 (19985) 7 months ago

'Oh think twice, is it just Another Day In Pa-les-tine' ?

'Oh look thrice, maybe we've all got Far Less Time' !

~

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article36427.htm

~

Do mind your mouth there, you foul mouthed swine !

~

https://occupywallst.org/forum/obamas-far-right-foreign-policy/

~

So now can you start to see a solution to the crime ?

pacem in terris ...

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[+] -5 points by shoozTroll (17632) 8 months ago

Did he really mention Jews in Iran?

It's no paradise.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/iranjews.html

[-] 5 points by beautifulworld (21588) 8 months ago

"What Iran's Jews Say" NY Times:

“Let them say ‘Death to Israel,’ ” he said. “I’ve been in this store 43 years and never had a problem. I’ve visited my relatives in Israel, but when I see something like the attack on Gaza, I demonstrate, too, as an Iranian.”

"Perhaps I have a bias toward facts over words, but I say the reality of Iranian civility toward Jews tells us more about Iran — its sophistication and culture — than all the inflammatory rhetoric.

That may be because I’m a Jew and have seldom been treated with such consistent warmth as in Iran. Or perhaps I was impressed that the fury over Gaza, trumpeted on posters and Iranian TV, never spilled over into insults or violence toward Jews. Or perhaps it’s because I’m convinced the “Mad Mullah” caricature of Iran and likening of any compromise with it to Munich 1938 — a position popular in some American Jewish circles — is misleading and dangerous."

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/23/opinion/23cohen.html?_r=0

[-] 6 points by flip (7174) 8 months ago

wow - you are the best

[-] 2 points by beautifulworld (21588) 7 months ago

This is an interesting piece you might like: "If They Can Sanction Russia over Crimea, We Can Sanction Israel over Palestine"

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/03/07/1282848/-If-They-Can-Sanction-Russia-over-Crimea-We-Can-Sanction-Israel-over-Palestine#

[-] 5 points by flip (7174) 8 months ago

I admire you for trying to reason with the dog (I think I do anyway) - it seems to me that he is an angry man who does not want to let go of his beliefs. religious zealots cannot be reasoned with

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[-] 1 points by flip (7174) 7 months ago

Nice. An appeal to reason.

[-] 4 points by johannus (59) from Newburgh, NY 7 months ago

You should quit deadpanning this man. In his self aggrandizing posts, e.g, Zen this & Zen that....together with his vile remarks, he is just crying out for attention.

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[-] 2 points by beautifulworld (21588) 7 months ago

"If They Can Sanction Russia over Crimea, We Can Sanction Israel over Palestine" Robert Naiman, Daily Kos.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/03/07/1282848/-If-They-Can-Sanction-Russia-over-Crimea-We-Can-Sanction-Israel-over-Palestine#

"Let's draw a line in the sand. From now on, supporters of sanctions against Israel for its military occupation of Palestine must demand the same respect for our democratic rights that supporters of sanctions against Russia for its military intervention in Crimea enjoy. From now on, we must not tolerate any abrogation of our democratic rights to advocate for boycott, divestment, and sanctions against the Israeli occupation."

How about a little human rights, for all people? And, no, not enough Zen, you have no Zen.

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[-] 2 points by beautifulworld (21588) 8 months ago

No, I have no idea what you are talking about, but are you beginning to understand that things are not black and white? And, you really should find some Zen. I truly wish that for you.

Do you not understand that the source is pretty unbiased and so addresses the truths in Iran and for the Jews there? I say pretty unbiased very fairly, because this matter causes many to become far too emotional.

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[-] 4 points by shadz66 (19985) 7 months ago

I'm neither a ''racist'' nor a ''libertarian BUSHITE'', toilet-mouth-boy and there are consequences to talking shit to me [ https://occupywallst.org/forum/punk-vs-sharia/#comment-1025456 ], so IF you really - ''don't know wtf (I'm) talking about'' ... then perhaps you should try to closely consider and coolly cogitate over the following and then perhaps go on to read the full piece at Haaretz :

Finally, so long as you don't move to Iran or some such place .. you should be safe, happy and cosy in your own li'l world and just be able to judgementally pontificate over other people's lives in other cultures you don't know tho' your time'll be better spent trying to get to the bottom of who's sabotaging the forum.

verum ex absurdo ...

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[-] 3 points by shadz66 (19985) 7 months ago

The ''consequences'' are right here for all with the eyes to see and so also further fyi :

Maybe ''The Zealotry of Zen'' blinds you to the facts, the history and p'haps the future.

multum in parvo ...

[-] 5 points by flip (7174) 8 months ago

I am sure it would be a strain to answer your own question - very carefully worded I might add. that may be the smartest thing you have EVER done. I am impressed. not sure what I am talking about - ok - i'll help - this line - " which group of people is most likely to lead a religiously inspired wave of bloodshed throughout the civilized world? . . . very clever. first of all let's take out the words religiously inspired - now what - now we are wonder who is not most likely but who doing it as we speak! who is bombing the whole (uncivilized? so it is ok to bomb them?) world - we are - Obama! john Kerry, chuck hagel, the DEMOCRATS -western civilization! slaughtering people all over the place. 1000 military bases around the world! wow - and now the question is not who is killing people everywhere with smart drones and dumb bombs, navy seals and assassins but who is "most likely to lead a religiously inspired wave of bloodshed" - very clever dog but really I think you were just lucky. and you do know what Gandhi said about western civilization don't you - well look it up should come up on google right away - you can use google right?

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[-] 2 points by flip (7174) 8 months ago

get on it then - as usual no response to the point. to be expected since there is no good counter to facts and you mr dog are an ideologue - a foul one but still - clinging to your point of view in the face of all contrary evidence. religious zealot perhaps - would that suit you better?

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[-] 3 points by flip (7174) 7 months ago

you are dumber than I thought - if I were nice I would feel sorry for you - like the beauty

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[-] 3 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 8 months ago

the weapons companies

[-] 5 points by JGriff99mph (507) 8 months ago

If by "Right to Exist" you mean charging in after WWII decimated the planet, carving up the middle east and declaring "This section is OURS".

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[-] 5 points by JGriff99mph (507) 8 months ago

So it would then make absolute sense to totally disrespect the people that are currently living there having nothing to do with the situation?

Well, we have been chased around everywhere so fuck everyone that is currently here, this section is OURS.

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[-] 6 points by JGriff99mph (507) 8 months ago

Very elegant and poetic as usual, zd.

Sorry but people living there have about as much to do with the border draw up as you do with Vermont's border draw ups. I'd love to see how you would react to people coming in and claiming your town as their own, and then telling you to get the hell out. That would be classic, going off of how you deal with other internet users on a chat forum. But then again, most internet loud mouths are quite passive in real life, so who knows.

No one is saying people don't have a right to live somewhere. The point is that the people that were already there do too. But that was never under any consideration, was it?

At the end of the day, we have a situation where immediately after WWII, the victors came in and carved the place up. There were no borders. I know this is a hard to grasp concept, being we live in this uber government security state, but its true.

So they march in, they carve the place up, and thats that.

And then people wonder why anyone would possibly be mad about that.

[-] 6 points by flip (7174) 8 months ago

very nice job here

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[-] 6 points by flip (7174) 8 months ago

you are not being quite accurate here - you just HATE - very obvious to anyone who reads what you write. it is a good thing you have very little to add to any discussion because it would be hard to read through all of that spew! the 100 mile per hour boy is right - it was the CHRISTAINS - those of (mostly) western Europe who have slaughtered the jews for 1000 years - the followers of the jew who preached peace and love. and why - now there is a good question! and who must pay for that horrific crime - obvious no? not the Spanish, not the poles or Italians, certainly not the germans! couldn't give them land that white people live on so let's find a "land without people for a people with out land!" another monstrous crime from the rulers of the world for the last 500 years. the ones who gave us the slave trade, 2 world wars and assorted minor killings - let's not forget the industrial revolution where the white man ground too many into dust to make a bit more profit. not sure who but someone said - why not give them Bavaria?? or perhaps Vermont.

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[-] 6 points by flip (7174) 8 months ago

I often wonder why you responses are not removed by the moderator. first of all you are making my point - In 1933, prior to the annexation of Austria into Germany, the Christian population of Germany was around 67% Protestant and 33% Catholic.[1] A German census in May 1939, completed more than six years into the Nazi era[2] and incorporating the annexation of mostly Catholic Austria into Germany, indicates that 54% of Germans considered themselves Protestant, (including non-denominational Christians) and 40% considered themselves Catholic, with only 3.5% claiming to be neo-pagan "believers in God," and 1.5% atheists.....................as to alliances during war - well we all have skeletons in our closets don't we? "the enemy of my enemy........ ..........Lehi split from the Irgun militant group in 1940 in order to continue fighting the British during World War II. Lehi initially sought alliance with Fascist Italy and Nazi Germany, offering to fight alongside them against the British in return for the transfer of all Jews from Nazi-occupied Europe to Palestine.[2] On the belief that Nazi Germany was a lesser enemy of the Jews than Britain, Lehi twice attempted to form an alliance with the Nazis.[2] During World War II it declared that it would establish a Jewish state based upon "nationalist and totalitarian principles".[2] After Stern's death in 1942, the new leadership of Lehi began to move it towards support of Joseph Stalin's Soviet Union.[1] In 1944 Lehi officially declared its support for National Bolshevism.[6] It said that its National Bolshevism involved an amalgamation of left-wing and right-wing political elements – Stern said Lehi incorporated elements of both the left and the right[2] – however this change was unpopular and Lehi began to lose support as a result.[16]

Lehi and the Irgun were jointly responsible for the massacre in Deir Yassin. Lehi assassinated Lord Moyne, British Minister Resident in the Middle East, and made many other attacks on the British in Palestine.[17] On May 29, 1948, the government of Israel, having inducted its activists members into the Tzahal, formally disbanded Lehi, though some of its members carried out one more terrorist act, the assassination of Folke Bernadotte some months later,[18] an act condemned by Bernadotte's replacement as mediator, Ralph Bunche.[19] Israel granted a general amnesty to Lehi members on 14 February 1949. In 1980, Israel instituted a military decoration in "award for activity in the struggle for the establishment of Israel," the Lehi ribbon.[20] Former Lehi leader Yitzhak Shamir became Prime Minister of Israel in 1983.

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[-] 7 points by flip (7174) 8 months ago

just because you do not know what the point is doesn't mean that I don't. this is the original and main point - "it was the CHRISTAINS - those of (mostly) western Europe who have slaughtered the jews for 1000 years ...... your link to the Nazis and the fact that they were and are Christians - makes my point. now respond to that - oh, can't do it and blame islam somehow. too bad for you. the white european Christians zenboy - the Spanish, the poles, the germans, the white Russians! don't you know the history - respond to it! as I said lots of strange bedfellows around don't you think - can you think - come on give me a mf or two. come on you can do it

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[-] 3 points by flip (7174) 8 months ago

yup - Christians - white European Christians - that force of evil for the last 500 years.............. "In the same month in which their Majesties [Ferdinand and Isabella] issued the edict that all Jews should be driven out of the kingdom and its territories, in the same month they gave me the order to undertake with sufficient men my expedition of discovery to the Indies." So begins Christopher Columbus's diary. The expulsion that Columbus refers to was so cataclysmic an event that ever since, the date 1492 has been almost as important in Jewish history as in American history. On July 30 of that year, the entire Jewish community, some 200,000 people, were expelled from Spain.

Tens of thousands of refugees died while trying to reach safety. In some instances, Spanish ship captains charged Jewish passengers exorbitant sums, then dumped them overboard in the middle of the ocean. In the last days before the expulsion, rumors spread throughout Spain that the fleeing refugees had swallowed gold and diamonds, and many Jews were knifed to death by brigands hoping to find treasures in their stomachs.

The Jews' expulsion had been the pet project of the Spanish Inquisition, headed by Father Tomas de Torquemada. Torquemada believed that as long as the Jews remained in Spain, they would influence the tens of thousands of recent Jewish converts to Christianity to continue practicing Judaism. Ferdinand and Isabella rejected Torquemada's demand that the Jews be expelled until January 1492, when the Spanish Army defeated Muslim forces in Granada, thereby restoring the whole of Spain to Christian rule. With their most important project, the country's unification, accomplished, the king and queen concluded that the Jews were expendable. On March 30, they issued the expulsion decree, the order to take effect in precisely four months. The short time span was a great boon to the rest of Spain, as the Jews were forced to liquidate their homes and businesses at absurdly low prices. Throughout those frantic months, Dominican priests actively encouraged Jews to convert to Christianity and thereby gain salvation both in this world and the next.

The most fortunate of the expelled Jews succeeded in escaping to Turkey. Sultan Bajazet welcomed them warmly. "How can you call Ferdinand of Aragon a wise king," he was fond of asking, "the same Ferdinand who impoverished his own land and enriched ours?" Among the most unfortunate refugees were those who fled to neighboring Portugal. In 1496, King Manuel of Portugal concluded an agreement to marry Isabella, the daughter of Spain's monarchs. As a condition of the marriage, the Spanish royal family insisted that Portugal expel her Jews. King Manuel agreed, although he was reluctant to lose his affluent and accomplished Jewish community.

In the end, only eight Portuguese Jews were actually expelled; tens of thousands of others were forcibly converted to Christianity on pain of death. The chief rabbi, Simon Maimi, was one of those who refused to convert. He was kept buried in earth up to his neck for seven days until he died. In the final analysis, all of these events took place because of the relentless will of one man, Tomas de Torquemada.

The Spanish Jews who ended up in Turkey, North Africa, Italy, and elsewhere throughout Europe and the Arab world, were known as Sephardim —

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[-] -1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 8 months ago

Religious intolerance.

Ugly, no matter where you find it, or who's practicing it.

That was in fact, my point in posting this. Along with the fact that's it's still spreading, from the Middle East, to Indonesia, to Mississippi..

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[-] 5 points by shadz66 (19985) 7 months ago

''In the 1990s, the Indonesian punk scene was at the forefront of bringing down the Suharto regime. Several decades later, it has grown, evolved, fragmented, and mutated. Now there doesn’t seem to be a common enemy, except, perhaps, global capitalism. Corporate interests—from major record labels to major cigarette companies—are pushing their way into the underground. It is a familiar tale told across the globe. But in Indonesia I was heartened by the resistance taking place. Commercial “punk as a lifestyle” is clearly present, but so is a huge DIY community. For many, DIY punk is a means of survival, and that helped remind me just how vital and important a social force DIY punk can be around the world.'' - from your interesting link & 'Punk Culture' has always had a d-i-y, anarchist, activist aspect.

Indonesia's vibrant punk scene is testament to something I'd suggest but I will leave you to decide for yourself as to what that may be BUT is it - ''another World out there'', I wonder ? OR .. are they really only regular people - just like us - albeit from a different culture and with the same hopes and fears ?

cave - bellum se ipsum alet ...