Occupy Oakland Calls for TOTAL WEST COAST PORT SHUTDOWN ON 12/12
Posted 12 years ago on Nov. 19, 2011, 8:35 p.m. EST by OccupyWallSt
Proposal for a Coordinated West Coast Port Shutdown, Passed With Unanimous Consensus by vote of the Occupy Oakland General Assembly 11/18/2012:
In response to coordinated attacks on the occupations and attacks on workers across the nation:
Occupy Oakland calls for the blockade and disruption of the economic apparatus of the 1% with a coordinated shutdown of ports on the entire West Coast on December 12th. The 1% has disrupted the lives of longshoremen and port truckers and the workers who create their wealth, just as coordinated nationwide police attacks have turned our cities into battlegrounds in an effort to disrupt our Occupy movement.
We call on each West Coast occupation to organize a mass mobilization to shut down its local port. Our eyes are on the continued union-busting and attacks on organized labor, in particular the rupture of Longshoremen jurisdiction in Longview Washington by the EGT. Already, Occupy Los Angeles has passed a resolution to carry out a port action on the Port Of Los Angeles on December 12th, to shut down SSA terminals, which are owned by Goldman Sachs.
Occupy Oakland expands this call to the entire West Coast, and calls for continuing solidarity with the Longshoremen in Longview Washington in their ongoing struggle against the EGT. The EGT is an international grain exporter led by Bunge LTD, a company constituted of 1% bankers whose practices have ruined the lives of the working class all over the world, from Argentina to the West Coast of the US. During the November 2nd General Strike, tens of thousands shutdown the Port Of Oakland as a warning shot to EGT to stop its attacks on Longview. Since the EGT has disregarded this message, and continues to attack the Longshoremen at Longview, we will now shut down ports along the entire West Coast.
Participating occupations are asked to ensure that during the port shutdowns the local arbitrator rules in favor of longshoremen not crossing community picket lines in order to avoid recriminations against them. Should there be any retaliation against any workers as a result of their honoring pickets or supporting our port actions, additional solidarity actions should be prepared. In the event of police repression of any of the mobilizations, shutdown actions may be extended to multiple days.
In Solidarity and Struggle,
Occupy Oakland
-In Oakland: the West Coast Port Shutdown Coordinating Committee will meet on General Assembly days at 5pm before the GA to organize the local shutdown, and to network with other occupations.
Recorded history is largely an account of the crimes and disasters committed by banal little men at the levers of imperial machines.
If we are to afraid to stand up to these "banal little men", we are nothing more than enablers of their greed. All non-violent actions must be considered until they get it through their petty little minds that they have no power over us. We control their wealth... by our purchasing habits, by our belief in their stock schemes, by cowering to their fear tactics and lies. No more! We are fearless, as proven by those at UC Davis and so many others. We are the heart, soul and ideal of what America is supposed to be. We would be unpatriotic if we did not follow the words in our own Declaration of Independence, "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security."
If you're going to do this let's make it hit as hard as possible. I want to help with 12/12 from the midwest. Let's arm people across the country and around the world with email addresses/ phone numbers/ something to do to support on 12/12. Can I call/email Bunge LTD... Sure! How about ....Can I email corporations that receive product from those ports a late delivery notice on their chinese made products... sure i can.... just an idea... but if i knew that 10s or 100s of thousands of others were doing the same thing from their phones... homes... offices that day.... wow.. Let's put some context to the content folks... context that all americans can get behind.... something that may increase the validation for the action and decrease the retaliation against the striking workers. And let's put some specifics to actions others can do in support.... Put us to work!
Hear, hear! Many of us are unable to physically participate, but are begging for something constructive to do to help. Please, give us a list and we will perform!
Agreed. There are plenty of us that have to help remotely.
I would recommend for anyone who hasn't already done so, to find the outreach working group sites/FB pages for their local Occupy movements, and see if they need flyer designs, web design, etc.
I know that I have asked my local group about yard signs, similar to the ones that pop up around election time. We just need a common design and then we can figure out how to get them printed at a local print shop and distributed. Bumper stickers would also be a plus. Basically, anything that someone can use to show support would be a start at getting more participation in the movement.
There could also be a lot more posters printed. Extremely large posters with iconic imagery should go up on the sides of abandoned buildings in urban areas. I see this type of marketing all the time for concerts and club nights, where you will see 8 or 9 posters arranged on a wall overlooking a high-traffic street.
That's a terrific idea. Id gladly put an #OWS in my front yard.
I print posters. I'm a graphic designer. They take them down very, very quickly when it is a political poster. It doesn't even have to be the owner of whatever you put it on, if it's a political poster people who disagree with it will rip it down. I placed over 300 poster in my town...less than a week later they were all gone. Not that it didn't work, just they do not stay very long.
I've found that putting them places and giving them to people seem to be more effective, also they are likely to give it to someone else. We did NOT run around hiding them in things at walmart and target so that when people buy stuff and get home and open it they find a OWS poster. Totally never did that.
No you are right. I have done promotions in the past, and I know that making a personal connection with someone makes a huge difference in the impact that a promotional piece will have. If someone knows you then they are more likely to read your flyer. People like to associate promo materials to an actual person.
If we can figure out how to make cheap yard signs available for people, then I think we will have a LOT of the people on the sidelines who can't make it to a protest to show their support. Bumper stickers are a similar thing. The idea is to spread the idea to the point where average Joe feels safe enough (through power in numbers mentality) to get off the fence about OWS and participate somehow.
Yard signs, yes, I like that idea. I will try and pitch that idea to a OOKC lady I know. Maybe if we just encouraged people to make their own. I think that would require a few brave souls to start it. 'This house is occupied'? '99%'?
Right there with you... I've been affording about an hour a day just reading up and commenting on various things going on with the movement. As a single provider father of 4, I am in this for my children's future but with my responsibility comes a limitation to how and when I can participate. A cohesive national strategy for web and social media will really put this thing over the top. For my one hour a day, I can recruit another 20-30 out of my network to do the same... do the math on the rest and it's pretty obvious where this movement could be a year from now. In no way minimizing the heroic effort of last week, but N17 was just a mild warning shot across the bow of the USS Wall St.
I agree with your points. I personally would like to see focus of the entire movement on another N17. As you stated, tens of thousands was a mild warning. Hundreds of thousands at USS Wall St. would be a serious threat. As it approaches a million plus it would be a full blown revolution. This movement has the potential to send the message to Washington that the political leaders are not only out of step with the will of the American People, but that we are not going to take it anymore!
Occupy Congress is where our voices need to be heard.Where a mass of bodies need to be planted! The congress does not hear the voice of the people auntil we are on the front steps of The Capitol.This is the worst bunch of elected officials Ive ever seen. They must go before they dismantle the entire country for the sake of a few. Im so looking forward to December.
How about not voting in these elections at all, the 99%. I wonder how would that play out!
Lest anyone forget - all the fighting and dying that have gone on in the name of liberty since 1776 have been to protect your right to vote. A more reasonable approach would be to educate yourselves about the world, the nation, your town and the people running for elected office; then vote intelligently. That's what will change the direction of the country. You ask how would it play out, if 99% don't vote? Well, the person with the most votes wins, whether 5 people vote or 5 milliion! (unless you're Al Gore that is)
you keep on voting, because after all your rights to liberty are taken away one by one, the only right you nwill have left is the right to vote for your oppressors.
100% agree... except that I have never voted for a lobbyist.... I recently discovered this type of corruption all the way down at my local government level. This is one topic that transcends all others and all party lines... but separates the 99% from the 1% - http://www.opensecrets.org/lobby/
I submit that we need to vote so that they know it isn't because we do not value democracy. Instead we need to have a 'fictitious' write in candidate. We need a name that symbolically demonstrates the angst and anger of the American people. The name needs to convey that the American people are mad as hell and are not going to take it any more. eg. Howard Beale from Network!!! I would submit that this name should be written in for every congressional seat that is running in the next election and for the Presidential bid.
really, waste your vote on a cartoon character? Men like my father who fought wars to secure your right to vote deserve more. Take responsibility you slackers! The right to vote is really all we have. That real fact that Americans have long taken the slacker route and not bothered to vote is the reason so many 'representatives' are able to get elected by special interest groups.
Calling people 'slackers' for expressing their frustrations reflects poorly on your upbringing. I am turning 60 years of age soon, have two master of science degrees, have worked as a senior executive and have owned my own company. My family also has a long history of serving this nation. Your lack of maturity and education is reflected in your words and approach. This country is in serious need of change and the Occupy Movement is the best effort I have seen to drive the type of change that is needed. I am entitled to my opinion, as are you, without immature name calling. Grow up!!!
The one thing I think we all agree on is that our votes were supposed to mean so much more than they do today. I believe in honesty in teaching my kids about our country and sadly have to explain lobbyists and corruption to my 9 year old daughter. This is not my America and it's definitely not hers. I believe this movement will need to endure the 2012 election... another election of picking the lessor of two evils before it has the mass support that it needs to actually make a difference at the voting booth. We need patience... strategy... and a long term plan.... that must start with cutting the deep rooted cancer out of the system.
I wholeheartedly agree. That is the frustration. I want a better world for my grandchildren. Unfortunately, we are left with voting for people that are not only the lessor of two evils, but who have earned our distrust and disdain for their unethical behavior. As you stated, the cancer is deeply rooted. People need to discuss how we can effectively remove the cancer, not in 10 years, but in two or three. It certainly isn't going to happen overnight. It certainly isn't going to happen without of fight. This is a war within our own boarders. It is a war against a corrupt regime - our current lobbyist led government.
The entire population needs to mobilize to not only fix our political system but to save the planet! Global warming is real and every month, we are seeing new and strange weather weather. We need all hands and minds on deck! We cannot be stopped but I hope we can learn to act in time!
Atm they are all selling something we don't want. Approving a canidate you disagree with on all points is better than not voting..... Interesting theory. Explain.
And not more than a few minutes later... I find this in the forums... http://occupywallst.org/forum/the-1-laughs-because-they-believe-you-are-too-lazy/
We need to define national actions for 12/12 - I like the idea of targeting Toshiba for all of the reasons listed in this forum post.,,, but why stop there. Which US retailer is the #1 seller of Toshiba products? With the ports shut down, this retailer will need to be made aware of the late delivery of their inventories as a result and the reasons why. It would be great if a banner could be placed at the top of the homepage of this site in advance of a national action. Click on the banner for a series of steps and resources for remote participation.... form letters etc. plus a feedback button so the remote participation can be documented. Maybe build a voting mechanism into the page to identify the top 3 targets with a 24 hour cutoff.. some social media sharing tools.... badda bing badda boom... it's on.
That's a great idea! That way visitors to the site can participate even in a marginal way. Judging by the increasingly large comments sections on this site, there is a growing number of visitors that could be asked to participate, even if its just to sign a petition or share a link.
It Is On Baby! Its Onnnn!
Think about this, the Christmas inventory is already in the stores and on the shelves. TV's everywhere and the prices getting lower by the day. You really think Toshiba is afraid of you upsetting their Valentines Day TV sales. Go after the big red heart candy makers, but my friend Ray says he was down at the 5-10cent store and saw some of that being off-loaded round back the other day. Maybe the manufacturers of the Memorial Day wreathes would be a better target. You really don't have a clue do you.
No i don't have a clue.... that's why I am asking for organization....guidance. This wasn't about Toshiba.I just stumbled across it in the forums... and I don't think it is so much about disrupting holiday inventories as it is about sending multiple messages and ultimately supporting the feet on the street in some little way from individuals that when multiplied displays a force. With the power of today's social communications tools at the dispose of everyone, this can be a source of organizational power or extreme disorganization. How can we take a leaderless movement and organize on a macro level? That is the question.
I agree on organization - thats the only way we can truly be effective. We need to move like a school of fish. We need to shift our business away from Traded Companies, look for non - profits and local and when we cant find that we should bounce around too shake'em up.. here are some basics
insurance banks communication companies utilitie companies
buy our meat at a local butcher, goto the farmers market for our produce, make sure the coffee bean comes from a local roaster...
this will make a huge difference in our local economy!!
Right on, how do we get started cause im fired up!
Think we need some sort of realtime on-line polling option to identify the top 3 remote actions in support of a street action event. They could be things like petition signing, email blasting, voicemail slamming, Things that when combined would take no more than 10 minutes to pull off. Fast and easy support actions This criteria will make it easy to pull in people from your network to start to dip their toes in the occupy water. Once more people become contributors, it will be much easier to get larger crowds to the streets and more involved.
keep up the dialogue, communicate as we are now, support ows and help it get more organized
No problem with any of your comments. The only caution is this, many begin a good cause with good intent, end up fighting alligators and forget that the good cause was to drain the swamp.
I used to have friends that owned a Mom-Pop store selling TV's, stereos, etc. I can tell you, on their behalf, that they would not have appreciated you sending you message to any company, in this manner. The only people you would have had any effect upon would have been them and their friends waiting to get their first TV.
Its like everyone is reading my mind! These comments just take the words out of my mouth. We just need some coordination to get the domino effect going like in the V for VENDETA!
You go, guy! How inspiring! In thinking about this general strike idea, which I support having been raised in Seattle, there is one thing that needs to be made really clear: Occupiers are not trying to steal christmas gifts from innocent children (which we'll be charged with) but we are trying to focus attention on the stranglehold global corporations have on the whole 'gift pipeline': from out of country manufacturing, cheap bulk shipping, predatory pricing, ending in the resultant low wage, no health/retirement jobs. That's a no brainer to the awakened but this action is happening at a moment when the frazzled hardworking public derives so much pleasure from the whole christmas gifting frenzy. What I'm trying to say is that we need a way to cut through the consumer fog to the heart of the matter which is liberation from the corporate chokehold. A clear simple message that takes people beyond the immediacy of a chinese toxic plastic toy for their child. The spectre of empty space beneathe the christmas tree is a power tool corporations have bludgeoned us with. How do we make that empty space blossom into a more sane society? More to the point of this 12/12 effort, how do we convince parents and other people that this is good thing??
Yes and what I have done is; originally sent food, clothing care packages to OWS NY have logged into live stream to be an added # watching and when calls to actions occurred at east and west coast helped to tweet important msg.'s faced book actions signed petitions i.e like the one's that came today regarding UC Davis Pepper Spray incident. Called Gloomberg and countless other useless so called public servants acting for the 1% and against we the people. So those are a few non physical but I will get out in the streets as this continues. I am already setting myself up so that I can be free as of December or Jan. The other thing is I avoid spending money kind of a financial fasting. If we all quit spending we would bring the message to the 1% without all the thug drama and our people getting assaulted. Boycott spending. However I have no mortgage,no rent, no utilities because I moved and built my home solar/ water catch yrs. ago.
I'm occupying my sofa...I do have some ideas that may help. 1 yr terms for senators and rep 2 yr for pres NO consecutive terms.
And take money out of politics, this is bribery, this is how our system degenerated! Shame on them!
If we all found out about bribery and gerrymandering, pledge taking etc it's so sad.
That's my major sticking point in all of this.... The corruption, the lobbying and the bribes undermine all of our votes and my children's future votes.Not fair... not democratic.... not acceptable.
for sure, tell you the truth, it is really nice to discuss issues, at minimum one feels better that they are not the only ones, lots of people agree. It's great to have ows provide the forum, I have great hopes for the movement...All we need is some music...
Check out "We Are the Many" by Makana, on YouTube for a great Occupy song.
cool, thanks I will... check out fishtank ensemble
I did see it on cnn, better to see it all on you tube. nice the prez did NOT have him maced....
Agreed
Here is an idea: Let's get working on grassroots local campaigns to vet and support candidates to ELECT TO US GOVERNMENT! Let's get rid of the crony capitalism and use our democracy to push them all out! There is PLENTY to do. Shutting down ports is a damn waste of time and harmful only to the 99% who work them. We owe them more than that.
Is it possible to crate an event page for this? Perhaps on FB?
There are just too many sites... This site should be home base for the national movement. In fact, whomever is running this one should provide this as a template for local chapters. I would like to see a national web/social media strategy going before the NYC GA. Let's get organized! There is so much untapped power just waiting....
Im here for indefinetly. Use Me People! I am Ready to fight the good fight.
**A video showing the "Wealth Gap" in the U.S. - It's useful to see this information visually. Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7tmZv1o5Ac
I like the below from 1996! I have shared this with a few of the under-informed in my network who are more into reading. The fact that this was from 1996 helped to validate that this is and has been an issue long before the recent protests. We need some more visual representations to share and educate... I saw the tail end of some great visual metrics on MSNBC's the Ed Show the other day about the growing economic divide... along with some current and projected social tragedies as a result.. still looking for a vid on that one.... in the meantime....
http://www.barlettandsteele.com/journalism/inq_dream_1.php
and this
http://youtu.be/ab6Ji-fSlTk
Yes, so true. In the meantime what can we do?
Haven't you read, nobody is running it
Right on. Standing by to get started, give me instructions! Im detrmined to fold these mother f...rs once for all and for good,
So... I've heard about some sort of virtual voting process that Anonymous uses for its members to decide about about proposed actions. Wonder if the webmaster here could put together some sort of remote action voting widget for this page that could be used to identify and vote on the top "remote" actions for those of us away from the streets?
That is an excellent idea.However we've had a recent influx of trolls that tried to sabatoge the web system here with the up and down votes on comments. The supportive comments were disappearing rapidly. I think we have to be there physcially or do email or snail mail. That way votes can't be manipulated by the trolls.
I use a free survey and polling tool for work called SurveyMonkey that allows for single submissions (votes) by IP address. I'm sure the trolls would find a way around it but it may be a start. Somebody would have to manage updating the results but shouldn't be too labor intensive
Guys you have a troll paid by a corporation or may be the cmaber of comerce to post fake opinions using fake personas.
These are the names used: Jimmy44, nikka, me2, anngriffin19, angelofmercy. He might add more names but you can recognize him by the style.
You should ignore these posts.
Paranoia will also have a hand in ruining this movement.
I would love to be paid to have an opinion about this movement, the extra cash would definitely come in handy.
Is it so difficult to believe that somebody (me) could have an opinion that the actions orchestrated by OWS last Thursday were not in the best interest of the movement? That I support the formation of GAs and much of what ows represents (or at least what it represented when it first began) but that I am dismayed at the direction it is currently taking in its actions? NOT in its ideals or goals, it is the ACTIONS of OWS that I am critical of.
In your little world nobody could have that opinion unless they were paid to do so. I don't like your little world. I like my big world where people are free to think what they think and say it out loud.
Ditto, me2 -- I support the goals, not the actions. I think there will be a sub-group splintering off made up of those of us who have been challenged for simply questioning OWS strategy, those of us who want to change the system but have other novel, innovative 21st century ideas to do it. I thought this whole thing is "a work in progress." Supporters on these forums and in person at the park tell me, "We're building consensus." But when I bring up things that bother me, or suggestions for a different strategy for consideration -- OWS supporters freak out. What's with that?!
Consensus does not mean that everyone's ideas will be incorporated. Consensus means that the outcome is agreed to by all. If you don't agree with what's be doing, you put forth ideas (as you've said you did), but when people disagree with your ideas, you can't say there isn't consensus building. It just means that the consensus doesn't include the idea you came up with. With a massive network like this you are going to have a lot of ideas and frankly most of them will be utter garbage. I'm not saying yours is utter garbage, but it certainly sounds like some people thought it was.
There appears to be no protection against the tyranny of the majority in ows.
According to Dictionary.com, Tyranny is defined as:
tyr·an·ny [tir-uh-nee] Show IPA noun, plural -nies.
Are you saying that the majority of the OWS people are excercising arbitrary or unrestrained power? Or are you saying that they are being oppressive or unjustly severe? Perhaps you are suggesting that they are being unduly severe or harsh? I think perhaps your interpretation of their actions as being tyrannical only proves to show that you either do not understand what a democracy is or you don't prefer a democratic government.
Somebody needs to go back and read their de Tocqueville.
That's when a group of us split from this OWS main group and form our own group. ;-)
Let me know when that happens.
I've read posts by many of the "corporate trolls" listed, even know some of their tumbler pages... they are just people. People questioning motive and method. They are not welcome here.
Splitting from the main group is certainly an option. Although I would point out that a small group split from the main group would have comparatively less power and a smaller voice. Not to mention that you would be removing what power and voice you have from the group as a whole. If your intention is to ensure that the OWS fails in it's task, then by all means, separate and weaken the whole.
I have no power and voice right now, apparently. I don't think OWS wants mine. ;-) I'm too action-oriented. I loathe the idea of standing around parks and shouting at rich people. I think the GA/consensus building/people's mic is unrealistic for application on a large (national) scale and question its effectiveness even in a small crowd like at Zuccotti. I find the people's mic severely limiting and ponderous. This is not the 18th or even 19th Century. We're in the "information age" where we have the benefit of computers and the Internet with its social media and citizen journalism I'll bet if the Founding Fathers had the ability for rapid communication like we do, they wouldn't be standing around under the Liberty Tree for more than a week. ;-)
Believe it or not, I very much agree with you. One person has very little power and very little voice. You are also correct that a hundred or two hundred people standing around in a park yelling at rich people has very little effect, other than to incite police to beat them up on camera. That really only serves to incite others to join the cause. Honestly, I won't go down to an occupy event either for exactly the same reason you won't. I'm action oriented and think that the idea of a police officer beating me with a baton will only serve to make me want to escalate things. For people like yourself and myself, I think the better option is to serve the cause by helping to shape the message and working behind the scenes within the existing system. If you take a look at Switzerland, they are a true democracy and everyone serves in the military and votes on every bill. A bill doesn't become law unless a majority of the citizens vote in favor of it. People say americans are too dumb for a system like that to work, but in actuality a lot of the younger people are very intelligent and as more of the older people die, we'll have a better educated population. Unless... things like the UC system continue to happen. Really it's all a matter of spending effort where it is most valuable.
And let's not totally bash the cops here. They were a positive presence for the marchers to DC the past days, helping them get through tough areas and coordinating assistance for them. Just saying. :)
That's just people. Especially conditioned ego driven individualistic we Americans. Cohesion is the key "A People United shall never be divided" It does not matter how and what we do as long as we are headed for the same outcome. So do yo thang. If we are calling for freedom and regime change, than you are free to do whatever floats your boat in order to effect change. After 40 yrs. of doing nothing but consuming and working you see where that has gotten us.
Its why these movements often lead to totalitarianism and/or dictatorship.. See Wiki: French Revolution:
"Internally, popular sentiments radicalized the Revolution significantly, culminating in the rise of Maximilien Robespierre and the Jacobins and virtual dictatorship by the Committee of Public Safety during the Reign of Terror from 1793 until 1794 during which between 16,000 and 40,000 people were killed.[2] After the fall of the Jacobins and the execution of Robespierre, the Directory assumed control of the French state in 1795 and held power until 1799, when it was replaced by the Consulate under Napoleon Bonaparte."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Revolution
We already have a democracy in the US- we just have to USE the constitution in the way the framers intended. Vote OUT the corrupt and vote IN the people we believe in. It won't happen overnight but it will be much faster than France's horrifically bloody 10 year Reign of Terror was. We need to stop yelling Revolution and get to WORK!!!
I agree. But right now this capitolist system is really sucking the American people dry. Its broken. It needs to be recalled and shifted out before We The People are completly diminshed. We can't take this kind of consumer consumed society. Gotta start growing your own. Protect ones self , family, and community from this wallstreet society. Its just not good anymore!!
Don't shop. Don't support that walmart system that says come in after your TG dinner and shop yourselves broke. I hear the Target employees plan on striking TG night.
Stay home! Stay Home with your family on Thanksgiving. Be very thankful for your family,your loved ones and forget about the black friday madness!
Hopefully this has already started to happen. I am beginning to see a winnoning of the "leaders" and the formation of consensus by those that are serious, that have goals and not just actions, and those committed to sensible rather then the helter-skelter activities of the past couple of months.
They "freak out" because they are getting a glimpse of reality and they really can't handle reality, OR you are threating to them as someone with a question-not a sheep in the corral called the park.
Hang in there and work for your ideals. When all the others have had their 15 minutes of fame, have spent their 2 hours in jail, and have a little scar on their pinky to show their grandkids. You can say, remember Rosa Parks - a great example for all of us.
Here Here!
There already are a few forming in Tampa
The fist pump that has been a symbol at the OWS protests was a clear sign this has been in works for some time. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lpXbA6yZY-8 They say there is no agenda or leadership, that is so they can get the sheep to follow blindly and then a spark will ignite the fire of violence and revolution, leading to the total collapse of the US economy.... Their main goal. Why do you think the World Trade Center was a chosen target? Islamist, Communists, socialists, and radicals are all following the plan.... Unfortunately, too many Americans are caught up in belonging to something without knowing what the end game is. If they knew the real goals, they may not follow so eagerly. Here is what people should think about and question about: Do you know the leaders and influencers behind OWS? There are people behind these protests who want nothing more than the collapse of our government and economy because they hate America and the American way. There have been people (radicals, socialists, Marxists, and several organizations) wanting and planning this for years. If OWS succeeds in their goal to collapse the economy, all the reasons you think you are protesting will become reality. There will truly be months, years, or decades of real economic depression, social chaos, food shortages, civil unrest, starvation, homelessness, job loss, etc. The banks will surely control the money by order of the government which will not go away. We will see Military on the streets, marshal law will be imposed, the rights you currently have will be suspended, and in fact we will have given the government more power. This is not just rhetoric or me ranting. There is a ton of history and evidence to support this. Just look it up. Checkout "The revolution business" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-P7uuPCWXng and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lpXbA6yZY-8 and "OWS Exposed" and 10 great financial collapses in history http://listverse.com/2010/08/10/10-great-financial-collapses-in-history/ Here are the real organizers of OWS http://www.owsexposed.com/tag/organizers/
THANK YOU FOR THIS POST. I know they keep saying there are no leaders, but I wonder every time I visit, "who is running this slick website?" Who writes the "official posts" for the site?
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We'll take a look at that after we get the immediate in house threats out the way....like the viciously rascist war on drugs terror campaign http://m.youtube.com/index?desktop_uri=%2F&gl=US#/watch?v=5b6kf5PIzX4 that has resulted more actual harm http://www.drugwarfacts.org/cms/node/64 while being proved useless http://m.youtube.com/index?desktop_uri=%2F&gl=US#/watch?v=cEXtNM7Lf0o. That's just 1 example, we fix in house first homie.
end the Fed, end the war on drugs, end the mid east terror occupation, give everybody their house back that lost it for whatever reason to the government or any bank.......then we join our brothers and sisters of the world to liberate humanity.
Agreed! #ows needs some very mature organizers to keep this movement going and goals met.
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exactly. the trolls also sabatoged many comments too. Up and Down system does not work as voting.
Grow up , I am not a paid troll. You don't even know what a troll is. I am a homemaker who first came here to see what this movement was all about. The Longer I have stayed here , the more disgusted I have become with you people.
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Yeah because some corporation or the chamber of commerce REALLY cares about comments under a website. It seems as if a lot of you live in a pure fantasy world in which you believe everything/everyone is out to get you.
Newsflash.. no one cares. The people against the OWS movement are as obvious as it seems.. we are hard working individuals who totally disagree with the methods of this protest. Only in a conspiracy theorist's fantasy world are we evil corporations.
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Classic denial - Sorry Mr Conspiracy Theorist, there is only one Jimmy44, and that is the only login I have here. Always the same though - when a few people don't agree with you, it's never because their opinion is just as valid as yours, noooo, it's always the same responses; they're all the same person, they're paid trolls, they're CIA/police etc.. very very rarely does any one of you fucking neanderthals take the time to actually discuss it. Only one person has in this entire website so far - a guy from Alaska named Turtle, and he made some very good points. The rest of you are just a pack of whining entitlement morons, and you have given me no reason to think otherwise.
You know what a troll does? Follows certain people around that speak out and tries to discredit them by making up lies about them, and never actually addressing any points they make, which is exactly what "Crapy" here has been doing. You want to know who the troll is? Look no further than 'Crapy'.
Yes, how dare anyone accuse Jimmy44 of being a troll. He is simply trying to engage in spirited civil debate, like this:
http://occupywallst.org/article/world-us-occupy-lives/#comments
TrevorMnemonic: Lots of LOVE to OWS from Omaha Nebraska
Jimmy44: You bunch of inbred motherfuckers, stay the fuck out of my city.
RobertUeberfeldt: Your subway, your city. Wow. Who are you really? Mayor Bloomberg?
Jimmy44: MY subway, MY city, MY Brooklyn. STFU and go fuck a sheep - you're good at that in New Zealand I hear.
Ok, bad example, but you see where I was going.
and this coming from the guy who repeatedly tried making up stories of things I never said, and then throwing the race card at me for them. OMG you're such a bunch of fucking HYPOCRITES it makes me sick!
You already tried the deny reality trick. Everyone can see what you said, and you keep denying it. Go back to your troll back of tricks for something new. I've seen you troll better than this, so don't disappoint.
You and I both know what you did, and more than once. You even admitted it after a couple of others called you out on it. You're an idiot, plain and simple.
You're getting rusty.
A Troll also goes around trying to generally disrupt the/a conversation by use of insult after insult.
Mere insult sways none.
Pot, meet kettle. How many times have you made ad hominem attacks on me? I could post nemerous links, but I'm not an anal motherfcuker like some....
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Love this comment!!! Thank you for the heart and thought that you put in this.
Keep Changing and Keep Adapting, it confuses the Status Quo. Fair-ness.
Being an Anarcho-Syndicalist it was like a dream come true watching this Occupy Movement arise and grow. This is exactly what the world needs right now. A flat structured movement thinking long term perspective working for creating a more just democratic and sustainable future.
These movements are the heroes of the world.
"What you should do is exactly the kinds of things that are going to lead to hysteria among privileged and powerful people" - Noam Chomsky
Keep on fighting, keep on growing. Greetings and solidarity from Norway struggleforfreedom
Also, for those who missed it, here´s Chomsky at Occupy Boston: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZbNT62aprM (q&a at 28min)
One day actions do not change anything. All successful actions are as a result of sustained action of the power of an organized union strike. The occupy movement must stop pretending that they have invented a new way to protest and to seek justice for working people.
If your not up to sustained day to day action of shutting down business as usual in order to force negotiations then go home and leave it to those of us that know what to do.
The occupy movement is showing an alarming lack of experience in dealing with power and are simply going side ways and on many fronts retreating. Until every occupy activist reads through the history of union actions that led to the living wage and social policies the oligarchs had no choice to implement albeit in a very corrupt manner the occupy activists will continue to move side ways and on many fronts retreat.
The Occupy Wall St. Movement has no leverage to force change and until OWS gets some leverage nothing will change.
If OWS blocks traffic and shuts down business as usual, OWS will have leverage to force change.
The forgotten must block traffic to remind the forgetful of the needs of the forgotten.
Don't follow the leaders. Block traffic with your friends.
Guidelines For Non-Violent Civil Disobedient Traffic Blocking. http://occupywallst.org/forum/guidelines-for-non-violent-civil-disobedient-traff/
You can also rally to change specific laws and effect change. This has NOT been tried with the motor of OWS. Have 1 million marched on DC yet? No. Have people descended on their state/city/Federal capitols and demanded to meet with their representatives? No. Has anyone put forth a third party candidate for 2012? No.
The third party that is on the ballot is the Green Party. Close to a million people marched on DC to stop the invasion of Iraq on January 19th. 2002 but it had no effect on policy. Marching does nothing except provide group therapy to the marchers. The last twelve years has seen huge marches in America but none of them changed policy one little bit.
The corporations control the electronic Jim Crow voting machines and have corralled both parties with them. When America gets clean elections it will be possible to create a just society but not until then.
Oh contrare......but the OWS does have a major lever. The fulcrum is the truth and the lever is their uncompromizing demand for justice.
How predictable that the opposition (1%) has turned the "J" word into a dirty word.
Your delusional if you think the truth alone is leverage. If you are not disrupting the flow of capital into the coffers of the ruling class with your activism you are just a vanity protest and you insult the memory of those that gave their lives in the great America labor battles in the past that won the living wage.
The truth came out about Bush WMD lies and torture but Bush still collects his presidential pension check and is free to collect the cash for stealing Iraqi oil which Obama has not reversed. The truth came out about Reagan participating in illegal arms sales to Iranians and the Contras but Reagan died a free man.
The bankers and their 1% investors are not afraid of the Occupy movement because you have done nothing to threaten their cash flow. So please grow up and do something real.
Oh I believe we agree more than we disagree. BTW the lever is our demand for justice. Yes that can include general strikes to demand justice.
Finally, attacking the poster with phrases like "....please grow up...." is a bit hypocritical.
The Occupy movement is finished just as the peace movement was finished when it refused to support the nation wide traffic blocking that shut most American cities down in protest to the beginning of the invasion of Iraq. San Francisco was shut down for over a week but the so-called leaders of the peace movement came out against it and refused to supply material support.
As for getting a general strike going nation wide, OWS does not have that much public support because OWS is to chicken shit to actually state what policies it supports
I was wrong. You have no clue of the history behind how OWS started and evolved to it's current form. This has been building much longer than two months. Those in-the-know are fully aware of the allusion that I make.
I have been involved in the social and ecological activist movement my whole life and started decades long before OWS. I succeeded some and failed some but the tactics that have succeeded for me and many others are not being used by OWS. OWS is behaving like a politician, not clarifying policy positions, running around paying one day lip service to this or that already on going social justice action or movement. This hap hazard approach has turned off public support for OWS.
The public is sick of political cowardice and can see right through OWS's childish inability to articulate solutions for creating a society based on economic justice for all.
As it stands I wouldn't follow OWS into any action as they are completely disorganized and nothing but political jello. The public is looking for a vision for a just society to give their children and grand children and not an anger vent.
Ooo, those in the know. Give me a break. OWS's inability to voice and articulate solutions is completely transparent.
The leverage is money. Money. That's it. Take it from them. It's all they care about, it's all they want. So, take it from them (or more accurately, just don't give it to them). It's something we CAN do, and fairly easily.
Don't go to Wal-mart. Don't use a credit card. Withdraw your money. If you're going to invest money, do it yourself. You know the saying, hit 'em where it hurts? They don't care about blocking traffic, and they certainly don't care about the truth. They twist the truth on a hourly basis. They care about money.
Occupy Everywhere: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZc1YBpw0Qg&feature=player_embedded#!
Also, for those who missed it, here´s Chomsky at Occupy Boston: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZbNT62aprM (q&a at 28min)
struggleforfreedom
This leads to the conclusion, it is time to finish retreating. Not one step back! Such should now be our main slogan. ... Henceforth the solid law of discipline for each commander, Red Army soldier, and commissar should be the requirement — not a single step back without order from higher command.
Spear us the trolling. It´s getting a little old.
spare me the complaining. It's getting a little old...
WTF.. this is NOT a communist party movement and it never was. That would be jumping out of the frypan and into the fire!
too early?
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Bravo, well said.
If you were wondering why the poor often don’t show up in great numbers to support the Occupy groups, here is your answer. A homeless man explains the reality of life on the street. You don't want to hear this.
www.josephcouture.com "Preoccupied In Hell"
I did not have patience to read your full nonsense. You said :"We control their wealth... by our purchasing habits, by our belief in their stock schemes, by cowering to their fear tactics and lies." Do you have a choice?
http://getoffwallstreet.com/category/topless-protests/
There is that old saying, “United we stand, divided we fall.” The Occupy London group in Ontario fell hard and fast. It was clear that their own fear, internal squabbling and a public presentation that inspired only ridicule did them in.
They were the first to go in Canada and it doesn’t look like they will regroup any time soon. Read how it all went wrong here:
www.josephcouture.com “How To Blow A Revolution—The London Model”
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It doesn’t take a lot for the 1 percent to control those below them if the masses are confused, afraid and fighting amongst themselves.
Read how the Occupy London movement in Canada fell on its own sword here:
www.josephcouture.com “How To Blow A Revolution- The London Model”
... Moreover, if we want that they don't repeat the same abuses, in the future nobody will have to pursue the aim to work as a policeman, a bodyguard or a soldier. Then we have to abolish completely the dependent jobs, because this is the modern form of slavery. After that the History will definitely come to an end.
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One day actions do not change anything. All successful actions are as a result of sustained action of the power of an organized union strike. The occupy movement must stop pretending that they have invented a new way to protest and to seek justice for working people.
If your not up to sustained day to day action of shutting down business as usual in order to force negotiations then go home and leave it to those of us that know what to do.
The occupy movement is showing an alarming lack of experience in dealing with power and are simply going side ways and on many fronts retreating. Until every occupy activist reads through the history of union actions that led to the living wage and social policies the oligarchs had no choice to implement albeit in a very corrupt manner the occupy activists will continue to move side ways and on many fronts retreat.
The Occupy Wall St. Movement has no leverage to force change and until OWS gets some leverage nothing will change.
If OWS blocks traffic and shuts down business as usual, OWS will have leverage to force change.
The forgotten must block traffic to remind the forgetful of the needs of the forgotten.
Don't follow the leaders. Block traffic with your friends.
Guidelines For Non-Violent Civil Disobedient Traffic Blocking. http://occupywallst.org/forum/guidelines-for-non-violent-civil-disobedient-traff/
Please Greenmarvel - Read Eddies quote again.
Does "at the levers of imperial MACHINES" give you a clue?? You attack all the "banal little men" all you want - eventually one of those big Machines is going to hit you in the head just like the rest of us.
And please remember to whom the Declaration of Independence was written and under what circumstances.
You cannot simply substitute the word ME or I into this process and assume that you can make a valid argument for action "to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security". If you still have a problem with those Englishmen, get over it.
I sure hope you are not paying for your education at UC Davis, are you? And note that it is UC Davis NOT US Davis.
And really, if "We control their wealth" where were you when they got control of so much of it. What team you been playing on "defense" or "offense".
And about that long post regarding the Declaration of Independence, did you really read and type it yourself of just cut and past to use as a tool the way you want to justify your missplaced points.
I am sorry, but I just can't give you an "A" in ENGL111 this semester. You might want to take it up with my friend Ray down at the coffee shop - but I already can tell you that it would be a waste of time. SORRY
I am constantly amused at the small minds of so many of my fellow citizens. I keep hearing how much the movement hates America, wants to turn it into a socialist, Marxist, alien nation. Nothing could be further from the truth. We all want this country to live up to its grand ideal, but unfortunately, so many people are under the spell of the machine. If we just stay quiet and follow the rules all will be well and we can live happily ever after.
Keep living in your sad, fantasy world. The only way real change happens is when caring, patriotic, responsible people take actions into their own hands. If you are to fearful of change, get out of the way, because it coming, soon!
Your insults are amusing, but ineffective. Perhaps you should quit listening to your own tired rhetoric and listen. I hope you see the light and join us in this great American adventure!
The fist pump that has been a symbol at the OWS protests was a clear sign this has been in works for some time. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lpXbA6yZY-8 They say there is no agenda or leadership, that is so they can get the sheep to follow blindly and then a spark will ignite the fire of violence and revolution, leading to the total collapse of the US economy.... Their main goal. Why do you think the World Trade Center was a chosen target? Islamist, Communists, socialists, and radicals are all following the plan.... Unfortunately, too many Americans are caught up in belonging to something without knowing what the end game is. If they knew the real goals, they may not follow so eagerly. Here is what people should think about and question: Do you know the leaders and influencers behind OWS? There are people behind these protests who want nothing more than the collapse of our government and economy because they hate America and the American way. There have been people (radicals, socialists, Marxists, and several organizations) wanting and planning this for years. If OWS succeeds in their goal to collapse the economy, all the reasons you think you are protesting will become reality. There will truly be months, years, or decades of real economic depression, social chaos, food shortages, civil unrest, starvation, homelessness, job loss, etc. The banks will surely control the money by order of the government which will not go away. We will see Military on the streets, marshal law will be imposed, the rights you currently have will be suspended, and in fact we will have given the government more power. This is not just rhetoric or me ranting. There is a ton of history and evidence to support this. Just look it up. Checkout "The revolution business" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-P7uuPCWXng and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lpXbA6yZY-8 and "OWS Exposed" and 10 great financial collapses in history http://listverse.com/2010/08/10/10-great-financial-collapses-in-history/ Here are the real organizers of OWS http://www.owsexposed.com/tag/organizers/
Morning Green I am having a difficult time getting by thoughts together this early in the morning. I dreamed all night that someone was measuring the size of my brain - and I just could't get into that deep sleep that I needed.
You know, a few months ago, I was not hearing a word about what your are saying regarding "the movement hating America". I wonder where all that opinion developed so fast. I see some blaming it on trolls, some on TV and other media, but I just cannot pin it down, can you?
Please, tell me who us is. 99.9% of my information comes from sources under the control of the OWS and you have me totally in the dark. I may have a small mind but it seems that it should be pretty evident to me by now.
See, this fear thing originates as follows: STEP 01. There is a putdown such as "keep living in your sad, fantasy world". STEP 02. There is a buildup such as "when (we the) caring, patriotic...." STEP 03. The offer of one alternative "If you are to fearful..get out.." STEP 04. Followed by the slammer. ie: we really don't care what you think or say, we are going to do what we want anyway "because it (is) coming, soon".
Your verbose action, simply puts out the "light" that you demand we all see. You then become the self-defeating champion of what could have been a valuable cause ie great American adventure. I just think that somewhere along the great offer you make, I am going to have to sit through a 4 hour presentation hounding me to buy a time share in a condo somewhere in the Artic.
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Do you know the leaders and influencers behind OWS? There are people behind these protests who want nothing more than the collapse of our government and economy because they hate America and the American way. There have been people (radicals, socialists, Marxists, and several organizations) wanting and planning this for years. If OWS succeeds in their goal to collapse the economy, all the reasons you think you are protesting will become reality. There will truly be months, years, or decades of real economic depression, social chaos, food shortages, civil unrest, starvation, homelessness, chaos, job loss, etc. The banks will surely control the money by order of the government which will not go away. We will see Military on the streets, marshal law will be imposed, the rights you currently have will be suspended, and in fact we will have given the government more power. This is not just rhetoric or me ranting. There is a ton of history and evidence to support this. Just look it up. Checkout "The revolution business" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-P7uuPCWXng and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lpXbA6yZY-8 and "OWS Exposed" and 10 great financial collapses in history http://listverse.com/2010/08/10/10-great-financial-collapses-in-history/
The OCW movement just makes me sick. As a former Marine who has traveled to over 20 countries in South America, Asia, the Middle East, and Europe. I have seen tyranny, oppression, depression, theft, revolution, war, communism, socialism, and the truly poor. OCW supporters do not seem to be educated or knowledgeable about what they are standing up for, or who they are standing next to or with. Though our system of government and capitalism is not perfect, and freedom allows for corruption as well as ignorance to rear their ugly heads, our government is the best and most successful option in the world.
We must remember that for the most part, Business Owners, Politicians, Laborers, Upper Class, Middle Class, and the unfortunate are all good people. To stand and say that mistakes by our government, banks, and capitalism is the reason for, or justifies revolution or a conversion to socialism, is a demonstration of ignorance. Look at the labor conditions in other countries, look at the continuous failure and oppression due to socialist policies, look at history…..
If you use facts and figures to support your rhetoric, if you really understand history, economics, and business, if you just travel outside of the United States and experience or observer what you are asking for, you will see we are the richest country in the world that takes care of its people better than any other. There is no place that has the freedoms, entitlements, opportunities, labor laws and conditions, and higher educational system like the US. There is no place like home, if you don’t like it here and you believe revolution, violence, and anarchy is the answer to change, you are un-American in my eyes. If you want freedom to explore and live your Socialist, Communist, Marxists ideologies….. Leave….. Go abroad to those countries who will give you what you seek…. If you love America and are proud to be an American you can start your own business, run for office, work with your government to change laws and policies, change jobs if you think you don’t get paid enough or don’t like their policies, make good choices for your future, be responsible for taking on too much personal debt, educate yourself on investments so you don’t make bad decisions, stop or start voting for policies or people to help control spending and create an environment that allows entrepreneurs to prosper, help your neighbors, strive to make positive changes. As a country we have lost our loyalty to our Country, to God, and to our neighbors. We have an entitlement mentality that wants something for nothing and thinks we are owed something. This is not what the foundation of our country was based on. The US used to be the 99% where we helped and stood by each other allowing people to make their own choices….. Life is about choices. In the past when things got tough, the country banded together and created new opportunities together. Are you part of the problem or the solution? Do you love being an American and believe in our system of government?
I have traveled. And I have seen people truly poor. In other countries and in the US. And I am a veteran as well. And a student of history (I think I understand it better than most). You know there was a time when one of the main arguments spouted by communists was that it was plainly inevitable to students of history. And I love our country.
One reason I love it because it is MY RIGHT as a citizen to protest injustice. And this country has repeatedly perpetuated major injustices against her poorest citizens. Is it un-American to ask that those who have wrecked our economy and stolen our money be asked to pay for those crimes? If I were to steel as much from the banks as they have stolen from us then I would be put UNDER the jail.
Also, in this country, we do not make people who disagree with us leave. At least not if they are citizens. I would never ask you to leave.
And as for being the richest country in the world, right now I think that is China, our friend, trade partner, and a communist. Where protesters are put in prison.
But I would like to say thank you for your service. While I do not always agree with what our government does and where they send the troops, I do support the individual soldiers and I do appreciate the sacrifices they make.
Interesting viewpoints and post. Thanks, many good points made. One item though, as to banks having stolen taxpayer funds. I assume that you mean TARP loans? Those loans have largely been repaid now, with interest, a nice profit for the taxpayer. I only say this because I see a common thread among many posts being an anger that "banks have stolen our money". I believe many of these posts believe that the banking industry took TARP bailout funds and never paid them back, which is not the case.
What is your opinion about the value of the assets that were purchased with TARP funds?
At the time the TARP was delivered in 2008, then later the Quantitative Easing, the crash had depressed the prices of houses, buildings, and contract based derivatives. During this time, the big banks that received the funds were the only ones with liquid assets, and they purchased large quantities of capital.
The situation seems, to me, as if a bunch of lost campers scrounged together to get a bottle of water, which one camper had. That one camper then traded that bottle of water for all the other camper's food and supplies. Later when they get to the stream, he "pays back" the bottle of water, but still has all their supplies.
I think the record profits demonstrate a large transfer of actual wealth to the banks, even if they pay back the TARP. What are your thoughts?
Actually, some of the TARP loans have been paid back. According to CNN (http://money.cnn.com/news/storysupplement/economy/bailouttracker/) 700 billion committed, 356.2 billion invested, and only 118 billion paid back. While many of the bigger banks have paid back the loans, not all have (Citigroup for example) and less than half of the total TARP money has been repaid.
Furthermore, this was taxpayer money. Money that we paid in to the government. If you believe in any type of "Social Contract" theory as a justification for government - which, I believe, is a preferable idea to that of government by force (direct or through manipulation) or divine mandate - then such a use of our money would clearly be considered a breach of contract to begin with.
Tarp funds were supposed to be used to cure the mortgage contagion hence, "Troubled Asset Relief". Guess who got the money? It didn't do diddly for main street and the banker, Wall St types became even more contemptuous of regular people. They believe that it was their intelligence and superiority that resulted in them getting bailed out instead. It will be a very difficult slog, one man's revolution will not be the same as the next. OWS will make mistakes, they are very smart and peaceful people. They are going to regroup faster than the establishment which is still hopelessly calling for agendas and goals. OWS has met their agenda by lasting and growing, they have met their goals by holding a GA everyday. Congress doesn't have that together. The establishment tells us what they want, it is our job to keep them guessing, to be everywhere, because we are. These police actions are very expensive, they don't do shit and the cops are glad to do them because they are on the clock. The police hierarchy is out of touch with the rank and file. The police are going to crack first because they have to maintain a brittle chain of command.
Wow. Did know how amazing the OWS folks are. Wonderful news.
Take a look at the 8-16 trillion that the Federal Reserve transferred onto the balance sheets of the banks for free. That is a prime example of theft. Then there were the threats that the 1% made against America to commit blackmail against the public. Next, we have the Congress living outside the law so that they can become the 1% by insider trading. Need more proof?
Our fulcrum is the truth and our demand for justice is our lever.
Have you ever considered that the people in this country might be much, much richer than they are now, without the criminal class that runs this country?
China is the richest country in the world? Once again an OWS protester has his facts completely backwards; and this isn't a 'small' mistake.
Well mister Marine... I have news for you but there are nations MUCH freer then the USA... Canada, Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Iceland, Netherlands, Spain, France, just sum up some that immediately come to mind. People like you are UN-American in MY eyes. It is not American for the working class to be screwed over time and time again and for the Rich to just get richer while the poor get poorer.
You say you were a marine; so I am not surprised by your views. Your kind just does the dirty work for the 1% anyway... so it is YOU who needs to be educated.
You mention 'unfairness in socialist nations' so do you have any proof that Sweden is a bad nation for workers? All the proof I see is that it is much better then USA... and I think it is UN-American to just go oh yay we are the best and then bury our heads in the sand... but I am not surprised.
There's no need to show disrespect towards proudamerican26. His views may seem foreign to you, but I think you have to reevaluate your own. Believing the "grass is greener on the other side of the fence" (ie. Europe) is a fallacy. The nations of Europe are in a state of dissolution. The only nation you mentioned that has stood up for itself against the Goldman Sachs take-over of Europe was Iceland. (Sweden avoided being linked to the doomed Euro currency, as well, but that was before the 2007-08 crash.)
I am sorry but I have friends that live in france Belgium and Denmark. They are much happier, make more money have safer better jobs great schools, great free ( taxes are a bit higher but it evens out) healthcare and on and on. OUr country is failing and has been since the 80's We are seeing the fruits of Reagan with his tax cuts and pro military spending, Clinton with his anti welfare policies and "free trade" NAFTA policies and his help to destroy steagle glass, and Bush: Well we all know about Bush
Do you think some of this happiness comes from other structures in European society? There isn't this expectation to work 24/7 -- families eat dinner together, have four weeks of vacation. Many European businesses still shut down during the lunch hour so people can…dine away from their work place. These countries are also much, much smaller than the US geographically. Here, families are now more mobile than ever before -- children leave home, live hundreds of miles away, making childcare and elder care more challenging than it ever was even decades ago. Looking to models of "happiness" is what we should be doing -- and also looking at those models' larger contexts.
When someone labels me Un-American I lose all respect for them, sorry!
Unfortunate that he said, that, but I think he means that defending certain values is un-american, read the whole sentance. Captialism is not in the constitution. Although I would not want to see any other system here, I would like to see it reformed. I am sure that we all agree on that.
Well we are down to a Crony Capitalist System in America so of course we need reform and regulations -- a free market is good but the worship of "Capitalism" as in capital versus hardwork and good ideas should make you money is not what I value.
Most people supporting OWS want our current system cleaned up and strengthened --- there is room for a strong free market and social programs that strengthen the middle-class and are good for everyone.
Corporations are not people and $$$ does not equal free speech.
I'd like him to prove that the 1% is putting their children on the line to defend our so-called "freedoms."
This marine is one of the 99%.....he is just ignorant about the fact.
That's exactly where he lost me. There are so few of the 1% fighting for our armed services, it's a wonder we continue to fight for their best interests.
He is not only ignorant, in my opinion, he's a flat out liar.
i would suspect he has family lineage going back generations....majors, generals.....he is the underachiever of the family,sadly still brainwashed.
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Had you visited these 'freer countries' and seen them, you would know that's not the case. YOU are unAmerican and repeating drivel you hear in self-congratulatory groups. I am continually amazed that OWS thinks what it is doing is lawful. Closing down CA ports? Blocking subways? You have puppet masters that say go here, do this, say that, and you jump.
I am surprised that people think that strikes & protest is unlawful. Why aren't you up in arms about the lawbreakers on Wall Street who have broken the law, and continue to operate with impunity, causing much more financial harm? If there were any justice, these people would not be out there, organizing strikes.
Try and speak without spinning it.Strikes and protests are not unlawful, and I see nowhere that anyone is saying this. Blocking ports, taking over parks, forcibly occupying subways, keeping people from passing through or going to their jobs or homes, IS unlawful. Westboro, and oh lord, I hate to use them as an example, but they do protest lawfully. They don't block roads or sidewalks. Maybe because they have a lawyer in the family who has battled constitutionality of free speech and peaceful assembly many times so they know what they are doing? Don't pretend a 'take over' of the ports is speaking your opinion. No matter how you white wash it, its a bit of domestic terrorism.
It's unlawful in the eyes of those who have disregarded the laws.
Therefore, can the laws be respected?
What is your solution besides disagreeing? Is it fair to say that you SUPPORT the satus-quo?
No, I don't like the wallpaper in this house, but Im NOT for burning the house down because I don't like it, and then have OWS members like yourself twist that and say OH if you're against burning the house down that must mean you like with the wallpaper. All the 99% the real 99% know what blocking those ports mean, that its unlawful, will only hurt the real 99% of people OWS SAYS its 'helping' and representing and it is an act of domestic terrorism. Even, and God knows I disagree with Westboro Baptist 'church', but Westboro knows how to work the Constitution and keep a protest truly peaceable. They don't block traffic, they don't 'take over' parks, they don't forcibly occupy spaces, they don't shut down ports. Use your own brain here, not what the OWS handlers are telling you to think.
I never said I wanted to burn down any house. I do know, however, that the only language the Corporate elite understands is money. Shutting down the ports on the west coast sends a STRONG message; YOUR WEALTH IS DEPENDENT UPON OUR LABOR AND COMPLIANCE.
OWS doesn't TELL me how to think, but instead provides a platform to do so. The reality of people THINKING is exactly what scares the elite. We are not supposed to question or think, we are supposed to comply and purchase.
It's a great start to do neither, and forcing them to see our power in action is the first step in forcing a dialogue. One that is long overdue.
GO OWS!!
I agree with ramous 100%. Shutting down ports will affect the bottom line AND the income of countless "regular people." If you want to hit the pocketbooks of the 1%, the answer is simple and it's truly peaceful -- STOP BUYING THE FREAKING PRODUCTS OF COMPANIES YOU FIND UNETHICAL! It's worked with animal welfare movements -- companies change their products when uproar hits the bottom line. AND now there are many more animal-friendly companies from the ground up. (Just using the animal welfare example…) Most of my food intake comes from greenmarket purchases and dining out at "farm to table" restaurants using locally sourced products. It's not convenient nor always the cheapest option, but I'm judicious in my buying habits. If you need a new lamp, don't go to Walmart -- go to the thrift store. If you want a sofa, try an antique shop. If your town doesn't have a greenmarket, find an empty lot and start a vegetable garden. Reuse, recycle, reduce!
All of the things you suggested are admirable and plausible. However, with labor at its lowest share of profits in history, it's time to remind the elite that their machine does not operate without our toil. The day's wage, or even the loss of minimum wage/subsidy class jobs in retail, will equate to mere pocket change in the larger scale of the overall loss. If there is a day's loss of 50 million, and labor is 10% or less of the share, who is really losing out? The wealth of the wealthy compounds, as we sit around and stress about our dismal paychecks. The 50 mil will be a loss to them, while my consumer habits amount to pennies to them. I haven't shopped at Wal-Mart in over 12 years and I do my best to support local business. I see where THAT has gotten me...
I know civil disobedience is inconvenient and uncomfortable, but sometimes it's the only way to make things happen.
Ramous, sounds like you are really on the edge of turning. Civil disobedience is illegal. That is the point. No one here is going to whack you with a 2x4 until you get it. That is also the point. You will have to whack yourself, you will have to figure it out yourself, then you will have someting other than nostalgia. That will hurt most of all when it betrays you.
I've seen the freer countries and I saw freedom, more family time, more balanced life and less paranoia. You must have visited the wrong place or people..... At to your other statements - I agree. Shutting anything down is going to cost the movement big in the PR dept. Americans don't like to see this shit - and I'm talking about the 99%. I have friends in Oakland and was just visiting - these are hard working and very hip young people.....definitely in the middle of the 99%. They are disgusted by some of the actions of the OWS. I'm with the ideals of the movements - but NOT the actions. They will ruin themselves, which is unfortunate. Then again, I doubt the brainless among them care much....
Mikey, What do you do for a living? Let me guess, NOTHING. You probably live off the rest of us just like most of the Occupy protesters. Shame on you for putting down this Marine. At least he was willing to put his life on the line to protect losers like you. And, by the way, have you checked out how much the Swedes pay in taxes? You might want to do that before you move there and get a job -- oh, I forgot, you don't knnow what it means to do a day's work. You're too busy protesting...
Remind me.....how can we outsource the marines again?
Oh yea......
Blackwater.
Hello Everyone!
I'm from sweden and we have a central bank aswell. The USA is further in progress in the downward spiral of economics but what's happening in USA will show all over the place whereever there are central banks lending money at interest.
The american people and the swedish people are just the same. USA foreign affairs is putting demands on many nations world wide, at least the majority of nations, and democracy in Sweden is failing aswell. We can vote, yes. We have several party structure, yes. Everything remains the same, yes. Who does it favor? Money masters.
Before people gather in their own General Assembly and talk about democratic rights the people will not have any power. Money is king and eventhough Sweden doesn't allow lobbying the effect of lobbying is all over.
It's very sad that the world we know today is like it is but we are all in the same boat. America is doing great, Federal reserve is doing great, Central Banks all over the world is doing great, stock markets are doing great... But this doesn't mean the people living in this world is doing great.
Every human being should get on the internet and educate themselves, get together, talk about the past and the now, dream about the future and feel empowered. The media isn't educating anybody and relevant history isn't taught in schools.
With the internet I'd say the old way of governing the world and the people of the world is weak. With the Internet anybody can read twelve different versions of the same story and be their own critics and judges.
Freedom of information!
Peace out!
This misconception of OWS being lazy jobless hippies is getting old. It's an obvious indication that you sit on your couch watching the corporate "news" then walk away feeling informed andrepeating everything you heard. I am an engineer, homeowner and family man thank you. Please think. The people in the streets without jobs are the 10% unemployed. How do you people not see this? Oh, that's right, your TV controls your mind.
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No I have worked all of my life. And I was an honor roll student. So I have busted my A$S all of my life. And I have gotten nothing to show for it. And I have MANY friends who are my age who are Swedes. They MIGHT pay high taxes BUT they actually have MORE money saved then ANY American my age I KNOW!!! As their taxes cover what they need, health care, education, student pension for while they go to school. I think that if you honestly believe us Occupy protestors live off the rest of you then you are obviously privileged and probably a pampered rich kid. Or have a serious lack of common decency and ethics. And before you scream socialist and commie at me... I was a life long republican before I saw how the party I voted for ALL of my life and my family voted for before I was even born only benefits a small amount of people.
So what do you do for a living? Live off of mommy and daddies trust fund? And it's not putting down someone when you speak the truth... another thing I realized my old party does not enjoy... have a nice day
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Internet friends dont count for social experience. Honor roll doesn't count as life experience.
these are friends I went to highschool with who happened to be swedes... or norwegians. They went back after highschool to their home nation though. And IF I could have I would have went with them. And actually I have visited those nations. Have you? I think they seem 10000 times better then USA is at this very instant. But have fun with your repeating of slogans you were brainwashed to believe. Last time I checked Scandinavians are not busting down the US border to move here... Mexicans are but well their country is even worse then USA... which I shudder when I realize that... So what do you do for a living? Live off mommy and daddies trust fund? As if you are not supporting us in the 99% you are obviously a rich fat cat... OR morally deficient. What one is it?
NO, you're not representing the 99% and you're not part of it, in spite of trying to co-opt the real American public to say its part of OWS. OWS claimed to speak for us but they were doing it wrong. So now more of us are here speaking for ourselves. You're seeing the results of public backlash against OWS violence and disruption, from real, thinking people.
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I love how uneducated misinformed people like you call all of us with the courage to stand up for our fundemental rights granted to us in the constitution, losers. I am 42....been working an average of 2 jobs since I started my own business when I was 20. I will be in NYC to protest.....I want MY country back. And dont worry, we will be there to help you take that silver spoon out of your mouth when we reclaim our country! So tell us babrside..what do you do for a living?? If you have the balls that is.
blaaaa blaaa blaaa COMMUNISM! blaaa blaa blaaa SOCIALISM!!! blaaa bla blaaa MARXISM! blaaa blaa blaaaa GET A JOB!!!!! blaaa blaa blaa FIGHT FOR OUR FREEDOMS!!!!! blaaaa blaa blaaaa
@primitive, its baaaa baaaa baaa COMMUNISM! baaa baaaa baaaa Socialism! etc... Every single one of them is jumping when their puppet masters say and where. Block CA ports? Unlawful, Immoral, and worse than banks stabbing us in the back, because while banks do it deceitfully, Occupy wants to stab us forcefully.
Thank you for your service! We all understand and appreciate that citizens like you put your lives on the line everyday to protect our freedoms! The 1st Amendment states that, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." Thank you for defending that freedom.
Unfortunately, you use the same, old, tired argument (move somewhere else...) that has been used since the sixties. This isn't about Marxism, et al. This has nothing to do with loving America. We all do! That's why we are in the streets, why we are willing to peacefully, calmly sit in the face of beatings, arrest, pepper spray. We know we are on the side of the American ideal. The true dream of the Founders. Not the distorted, right-wing fallacy we witness today. This is not even about wealth. It's about fairness, it's about "...created equal".
I dream of a day when the rest of the 99% understand this. Long live OCCUPY!
Occupy is not necessarily about Socialist, communist, and Marxists ideologies. It is not something that can be defined by a word or a theory. It is a movement, something that is taking place in each successive day. It is a group experience, of which is new and evolving. What it stands up against is not America nor capitalism, but rather it stands up against the aspect of human consciousness that perpetuates inequality, war, brutality, duality, and all other human actions that destroy not only human dignity, but the earth as well. The system we live under now is cancerous to the Earth and is only kept in place big big corporations and the lobbyist they hire in Washington. Yes, we have things "better" here in this country, no doubt. Yet, a major reason, if not the biggest reason why other countries are not as prosperous as we are is becuase the "power nations" of this world [the US, England, etc.] have employed tactics of economic imperialism throughout this world. One example of this is that "3rd World" countries cannot pay off the loans big elitist owned banks lent them and thus cannot develop the way we did in America. These trans-national banking arrangements, where countries like America loaned money to other developing countries in attempts to boast their infrastructure was analogous to the sub-prime loans that banks gave to home owners whom they knew could never pay them off, thus crashing there markets. This is not a country that is doing fowl things, or banks rather, but it is a sense of human consciousness that perpetuates greed and control. It is all about control. The problem is that the system is rigged. You cannot vote for anyone to make change becuase those whom we vote for are backed by big corporate interest [i.e big oil, among others]. Like Albert Einstein said, you cannot find a solution to a problem with the same thinking that created the problem. There is no option left but to defy the current system, for the current system has safeguarded itself form any real fundamental change. For instance, so called "free" energy, a source of energy that cannot be monitored is suppressed every time a developer comes close to making great strides. Think of people like Tesla and Wilhelm Reich, among others. Free energy undermines big industry and thus is destroyed before it can even reach public knowledge. You really do not think the giant stones that make up the pyramids in Egypt where lifted solely by human hands and apparatus do you? Think outside the box. The occupy movement is about breaking the bounds of the "box thinking" to which the media conditions us to believe. The occupy movement stands up in the same way that the revolutionaries stood up for their own freedom when the colonist did away with British rule. The occupy movement is the most "American" thing to happen to America since the founding of this great country. Furthermore, and my last point...why do we need to be governed, cannot we not simply cooperate? Only when we get past the point of submitting our autonomy to a elitist controlled government can we really reclaim our dignity and say that we are free Americans again.
Dame strait KeenAwareness..........
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All hail, Gaia! lol
Where do you get all of this pseudo-science and why do you currently have 5 positive points next to your name?
How much history/science/economics have you studied sir??? T.V. news and magazines don't count, either.
Nothing but Republian talking points there. Sorry for your anger at OWS, but you don't know OWS.
The last line is two questions. No and No.
Open your eyes to a system of crony capitalism, not fair capitalism -- of the 1%. Most small businesses are of the 99% -- most banks are of the 1%.
Do you believe it is okay for a bank to provide loans and at the same time buy insurance on those loans so that if the borrower defaults the bank just gets the insurance co. to pay the loan off? Ever hear of a CDO? It's deep and dark in them bank vaults...
Banks made millions in loans -- pushed them fraudulently in cases (and no, I do not mean Fanny/Freddie) and the bankers all laughed as the housing bubble burst because they couldn't and didn't lose their money -- is was a scam.
I can go on an on about how the 1% have screwed us...
To use your own words: This is not what the foundation of our country was based on.
You clearly don't know how credit default swaps work. Any entity that makes a loan is entitled to buy insurance on that loan. It's not just exclusively for banks. When the entity goes bankrupt, the insurance company covers the cost of the loan, NOT the tax payer. Moreover, the insurance companies make $$ or they wouldn't be in business.
The government used taxpayer $$ by bailing out the banks and insurance companies thru TARP. So your hatred should be directed at the government, not wall street.
i agree with the things you are aginst, but do not see these on a stret level, thank you for serving our country, but learn something about the people you are trash talking, because i work hard(2 jobs) and i believe in freedom,democracy and fair capitolis, and it makes me sick the level of corruption in our system an counrty and it saddens me that so many ignore the actual people that make up this movement in favor of focusing on the few whowho are easy targets and seem to threten what you have been told to believe in. as a whole we do not want comunism, socialism anarchy or violnce. we are not all drug addicts, most of us work, many are under employed. and i find it very ignorant of accuse me of that to my face and ignore any relevint point i may have or connection between my views and yours that may be a point for co-oporation. why someone would not take the opportunity to change our country is beond me. we are getting involved in the system because the democrats and republicans do not have our best interests in mind. and i personoly see taking on unjust law and policy as a much better alternative to switching back and forth between the George W. Bush administration and the Barak Obama adminitration every election year. and if i have offended you by offering the thought that the Bush administration and Obama administration are equally as bad then just take a step back and reflect on how democrats and republicans have worked together perfectly to produce the current state of our ecconomy and system. i get involved because i no longer believe in our election system, in our "elected officials" or there ability to fairly govern in this system of corruption . i occupy because i dont believe anyone is going to fix this country for me, i need to do it myself. i occupy because america is better than most, but we should make it as good as i should be. i occupy not because i want a handout, but because i want a fair wage and benifits for the hard work i do. i occupy because i want affordabe education for my children, and if it sickens you that i am standing up for my rights, my freedoms, my family, and my community, then maybe you need to re-think your american values
I think you're really demonstrating the effect of Fox News. The OWS (not OCW) movement is a sprawling range of people both educated and not; mostly people who have been systematically disenfranchised by a corrupted Washington. This country has taken away access to free good education, beneficial health care and the potential of owning property. The middle class is not suffering from an case of entitlement, we want the basic right to live and not at the mercy of greedy corporations. If you think participating in politics is un-American than you must not understand what the point of a democracy is. I don't love being an American, not when we are sending single minded people like you out into the world to blow up innocents in 3rd world countries. I don't believe in this current system of government, not the way it is working for us now. Just because there are worse off places doesn't mean we shouldn't protect our fundamentals. If you don't like it why don't you leave.
Im not a marine but i served for eight years. Since 9/11 i have watched our freedoms being taken in the name of a false security while power is centralized and controls tightened. Because i love my country I cant sit silently and watch us turn into a new fascist state. You talk about starting a business, but have you looked into it? It is not so easy as just doing it: it is expensive, it is complicated, and it requires being able to compete with mega corporations that have successfully lobbied to stack every deck in their favor. You try to make this an either/or choice, but it is not. I can love my country while still wanting to improve it, undo the damage that has been done, and bring back opportunity.
failed attempts at socialism overseas often have a lot to do with capitalist efforts to destroy or redirect such movements. so its hard to see what would happen without that opposition. people need to recognize that the freedoms they enjoy come from various movements of oppressed people standing up to assert themselves over history. Capitalist interests heavily influence the US government. These direct the arms of imperialism overseas to undermine and destroy public freedoms elsewhere. and then sooner or later, undermine them in the US as well.
don't fight for a country
You're kidding right? Opening your mouth before educating yourself seems to be a common trait of the OWS supporters. Socialism doesn't work because of a little thing called 'discovery'. All planned economies discount the invisible hand which moves markets. This is the reason capitalism has survived and planned economies have failed. Want to try it again?
This poster is so misinformed on so many levels that it is impossible to respond. It would take me several years to educate this person.
Don't think there is starvation, police brutality, a well-planned scheme behind the stock market, and more in America?
Open your mind and look around. The facts an evidence is there.
You're probably not that smart at all. Just a keyboard jockey. A well planned scheme behind the stock market? Lol. Do you know anything about the stock market? Let me guess.. you're one of those who think 'derivatives' caused the housing crash. Laughable.
We need a lot less patriotism, and a lot more humanity. I'm not afraid of the critics of capitalism. Have you ever heard of Gen Smedley, whose quote is "War is a racket?" Why are you not criticizing anarchists -- who are on the exteme & critics of big government? Not a word about OWS standing next to them. I wish our congress included the entire spectrum, instead of tweedly dee & tweedly dum. God bless you anyway, mr proudamerican.
I am sorry sir, but as much as I respect your service, you simply are unaware if what it is everyone is protesting for: freedom of speech ( which clearly people are being attacked by militarized police), freedom of press ( which clearly is being attempted to bre shut down by the police and has already been taken over years ago by the likes of Murdoch, freedom to have a good decent paying job ,freedom from vampires like the private health care companies (universal healthcare) which has been shown be EVERY reputable economist on the right and left to be absolutely neccessary in saving our economy, re-investment in OUR country with construction jobs to save our infrastructure, Glass-Steagle act to be reimplemented in order to stop bank corruption as we have already seen. Low interest loans or FREE university education so we can CATCH up with the rest of the world that pays for their university students so they can keep up in this global economy, taxing the rich like we have always done in good economies (even according to Bush Reagan economists) and putting regulations and taxes on corps so they MUST stop outsourcing jobs. None of this has been proven to hurt us. It will save us.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3EZ5bx9AyI4
Turf out anyone who is marching with Grover Norquist for a start! That would move is in the direction you're describing.
Perhaps an interesting thought lies in the concept of 'ownership' and 'propertyrights'. The entitlement of wealth, the thinking therein but also the consequenses it has gives ideas for a better way of creating a more human, and more humane alternative to what we have. We have an entitlement mentality that wants something for nothing and thinks we are owed something. This is not what the foundation of our community was based on. The US used to be the 99% where we helped and stood by each other allowing people to make their own choices….. Life is about choices. In the past when things got tough, the community banded together and created new opportunities together. That is why we stand together in these difficult times and contribute whatever is in us to give. Are you part of the problem or the solution? Do you love being an fellow human being and believe in our system of government as a means to serve as many as possible?
There is a debate going, and I appreciate your input for giving it, and sharing with the 99% sparking debate, for each bracket in the sheckle, each idea mixed with others brings us one step closer to the things we seek for all combined into one hyvemind consensus.
From Amsterdam, we greet you proudamerican26 and we greet all warriors of the light, with solidarity in struggle. We stand with Oakland. We stand with NYW. And we stand with all of us.
The Defense Dept should be renamed, US OIL PROTECTION FORCE.
This is a country for the people, by the people.....yes it is the best in the world, has been for the past 225 years. Corporate greed has taken OUR government away from us...from the everyday worker and handed it directly to the "elite". Lets start with taxes....those who make 1 million plus pay 17%.....the average US worker pays 24 percent....is that fair to you.....did you see anything like that while in other countries.....AND you talk of history..look at any major uprising, one theme is clear...separation of the classes........its never been wider then now here in the USA. Its way overdue for change!
Everybody in the same basket: ouch! At least a disclaimer "for the most part." Mr. Proudblabla: go & take a cultural studies class, or simply a (evolution) biology 101 class, I'll gladly pay for it with my hard earned taxpayers' dollars.
"We must remember that for the most part, Business Owners, Politicians, Laborers, Upper Class, Middle Class, and the unfortunate are all good people."
Well I stopped reading at your "un-American" remark -- I am a Veteran and accusing other citizens of being Un-American as if you and your ideas solely define America is just IGNORANCE.
regardless of anything else - just want to say thank you for your service and sacrifice - thank you for being willing to fight to protect our rights and freedoms - some people will just never get it - like OCW people who don't seem to understand - what you fought for was their right to assemble and protest... maybe they should go to other countries and try it and see what happens to them! :)
"They hate us for our freedom." Remember that bullshit coming out of Dubya's mouth? Eh tu Brutus?
All of our wars since WWII were at first "containing Communism" which meant indirect war against Soviet Russia, and then about control of "lines of supply" and control of natural resources like oil -- NOT about "their" or anybody's "rights."
Yet another living in a dream...
Well said ProudAmerican26. I lived much of my life in other countries, and like you said, there's a lot of problems with the US and the greed and corruption of the politico-elite, but even so, life here is better than many other countries. Some of the worst of the worst are communist countries. It amazes me that some OWS factions are pro-communism. Clueless morons.
I got news for you "Jimmy" MY best freinds are Chinese. They have free health care,and university. They don't have freedom of speech, but we don't seem to EITHER!!! Good luck on your comparisons
They also have a 81.6% personal income tax rate, or does that little fact not fit your agenda, you clueless fuck. FYI I have Chinese friends too. They moved to US for a reason, idiot.
I see the same number of anarchist symbols, as I do the communist symbols. Do people not realize that a statement against big government is in total agreement with anarchists? Why are people singling out the communism? Do they think there is a danger after the fall of the Berlin Wall? This stuff is just silly. The pendulum has swung too far, and now we do need strong laws. We are a nation of laws, and OWS is about democracy, not ideology.
There you go again Jimmy44 Troll. "Clueless morons," eh? Yet another living in the dream...
Have evidence of this "pro-communism?" Sure, there will be members of the Communist party passing out flyers -- oooooo I'm so scared. (You been to any Occupy City?)
Define factions for us. Define Communism while you are at it. Let us see you're intellect for a change.
The U.S. mabye tops in your mind but not so in a lot of ways when compared with many other countrys for education, crime, etc. Whose got the most of it citizens in jail? What does that tell you? Many privately own jails -- own by the likes of Goldman Sachs!!!!!!
Come on, get learned.
You don't need any 'evidence' to see that a lot of OWS protesters support the idea of socialism. Redistribution of wealth has been a common quote I've heard on the streets among protesters. Yet when I ask these individuals how the economics work of a socialist system, they scratch their heads with no response.
Of course America isn't the best at everything and of course there is corruption. However ending the capitalist system which made us great is NOT the answer. The answer is occupying government and changing things from within. Seperate the gov't and wall street. Monitor elected official's bank accounts. Don't rally against capitalism.
Well if you have not seen the factions, than you're willfully ignorant and walking around with a blindfold on, which does not surprise me one bit.
With freedom comes responsibility, and unfortunately there are too many gimps like you who think freedom means not having to do any work and expecting a handout. You're just another whining entitlement brat, and your version of communism is nothing more than that.
Actual communist theory might be ok in theory, but does not account for human nature. Communism offers no incentive to work harder than the next guy, thus the entire population gets dragged down to the lowest common denominator. THAT is communism in practice. It has been tried many times, and has failed repeatedly. You're an idiot if you think otherwise.
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I have to add one thing to your comment "proudamerican" which I agree with. they do know what they are standing up for. From what I've read in different websites, they want to change our form of government and our way of life to a Socialist & Communist system
We started with a Republic, then we got a bit of Democracy, then there was some added Socialism. The Communist party reached almost 75,000 at its height in the forties and has never had any real influence.
But what we have now is a Plutocracy. And the Conservatives want us to be a Theocracy.
You don't read enough, you sad fool.
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Yes, they "think" that is what they want.... They should go experiance it in another country for a month and then see how they feel about it.
The "think"... eh? Read minds? Got ESP? You need some ant-depressants, dude.
You know nothing about the Occupy Movement.
Where to you get your false information I wonder. FOX News? Washington Times? Weekly Standard? Stormfront?
Let's go see Mr. Wizard together. He'll fix you!
PLONK
We will not have to go to another country in another 10 years if we do not stop this corruption right now with Lobbyist, Corporations & Congress.
Thank you for bringing some clarity to the argument. We're not going to get anywhere if we continue arguing rhetorical points and hypotheticals.
I agree with your comments, but just one problem. Did you just call yourself a "former" Marine?
Former Marine An acceptable term for a Marine who is not currently serving, but make no mistake, that person is a Marine and always will be a Marine.
Sorry. That's the correct answer. I work with too many not to have challenged you.
And I totally agree with you.
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Had been reading OWS for several days now...i m from sri lanka...in my country, we get free education till the end of university...also everyone gets free health care, ...& i thought we were poor.
Read the Declaration of Independence, folks. This movement follows it well and could not be more American.
Shutting down the ports is a powerful tactic. Cutting into profits is the only thing the ruling elite will listen to. But what this movement needs is something more sustained and powerful than even this. A nationwide General Strike, a true General Strike in which all workers, or at least the vast majority, refuse to work, not just for 1 day, but for an extended period, until all of the movement’s grievances are resolved.
The problem with this is that the mainstream unions are terrified of condoning and promoting a General Strike among their members. In fact, it is illegal under the Taft-Hartley Act, which was written, in part, to prevent another General Strike from occurring in the wake of the Oakland General Strike of 1946. Without labor’s support, without the majority of workers walking off the job, a General Strike cannot cut into profits sufficiently to make the bosses negotiate. Without the support of mainstream unions, it is up to activists and organizers to make this case to their coworkers, neighbors and other working people, a difficult task indeed without the resources and foot soldiers available to the unions.
The other problem is that even if the majority of the movement’s grievances are resolved, the capitalist system still exists, which means that a 1% persists, continuing to enrich itself by paying workers as little as possible and making them work as hard as possible. Homelessness, poverty, unemployment, hunger and want will continue, too, just as they did before the economic meltdown. So the movement needs to consider whether it’s all about some superficial reforms that bring down college costs, increase taxes on the rich, and make life a little easier for the middle class, or truly ending the hegemony of the 1% and creating a classless society free of poverty and privation.
The wages and standard of living were great in the Soviet Union weren't they. Let's give that another shot.
exactly, they were terrific once they brought about revolution and brought down the 1%. Really, no one was struck by the terror of young marxists destroying a country in Dr. Zhivago? The thing is, when you take down the rich, you don't make everyone well off...you make everyone poor.
The future of capitalism is China, (i.e. a capitalist oligarchy police state), and it's a future I don't want. (Michele Bachman recently said at a debate that we should be more like China, and she wasn't kidding)
The USSR my have have called itself communist, but in practice it was a similar form of "state capitalism", and a very effective one in terms of industrial development. Like the US today, an oligarchy and a large power imbalance needs a strong police state. China is showing how a capitalist oligarchy can continue to exist in the 21st century. We're not there yet, but if you look around at what's happening, it's hard not to see the signs of the direction we're moving in.
The USSR went from a basket case to a superpower in 37 years. No market economy has matched that. No market economy could match that. And the US is now relying on Soviet space technology to continue its space program.
Sorry, the USSR never even achieved 1/6th of the GDP per capita of the US. People in the USSR STARVED TO DEATH on a regular basis. Holy crap. To consider a country that AT ITS PEAK had a GDP of $5,500 US dollars per person a super power is INSANE. The economy of the USSR was not even considered "first world" by a lot of economists during its height. I think you need to look at a book or google or watch a movie or something. How old are you?
What does it matter how old I am? If you get your facts from google or a movie or even most books that have been published since 1980 no wonder you can't deal with the obvious that the USSR was a superpower. And it became a superpower during a period in which it had a civil war and two world wars. It was a period of invasions and massive destruction and subsequent rebuilding. No market economy has come anywhere near its achievement. The USA lived in a permanent state of fear and paranoia of its competing power and influence since at least 1945 until its collapse. As for GDP being an adequate measure of wealth, it is not even a reliable indicator in a market economy let alone a planned economy. Economist may be stupid generally but they are not so stupid as to rely on GDP in the crude and vulgar way you have. Not even those economists whose economic intelligence amounted to cheering on the spivs, hustlers and the other entrepreneurs that brought us the GFC. It does not matter how old you are, you would need three lives before you got anywhere near knowing.
Good comeback. You've completely convinced me that I'd rather have lived in a country with mass starvation, no opportunity, and a corrupt and powerful government. Screw the market economy and its ability to provide food for everyone and the highest standard of living EVER realized by any nation!
The only way you can convince yourself you don't live in a country where there is little opportunity, has a corrupt, impotent and incompetent government, a greater percentage of its population with eating disorders and diseases than any place on earth ever has, as well as malnutrition and the most disgraceful health system in the West, etc. etc. etc. is to console yourself with a pet hate. Go to your window, open it, inhale. Breathe in the atmosphere of a society being screwed by the free market. Capitalism has left the building. It has found its Elysian fields in China. It ain't coming back. The only future worthy of the name for the USA is to get beyond capitalism. This doesn't have to include you, you can simply ignore everything because you have your pet hate to keep you warm.
Wow, very interesting to witness these developments. I suspect that very few people have any idea of where this might eventually lead. I can only hope that so many that have been watching from the side lines, actually feel justified and motivated to take action personally.
None can expect to benefit without making a commitment and risking something.
I feel that, before too long, this thing could REALLY explode.
Keeping my fingers crossed...
Keep each other warm and inspired.
with respect...
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This could be a reach, but I think you have an issue with staying on point.
Right on. Hit them in the pocketbook where it hurts. They stole our money. Let them lose some of it.
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Stole your money? Who? How? Be specific.
Where does money come from? Does it come from rich people? Do rich people "make" money and then "give" it to workers? Or does money come from the workers' labor? What happens if the workers aren't fully paid for their time and hard work (or for example if they have their retirement plans cut)? Has the 1% just "made" money, or have they stolen it?
What stupid questions.
1) Money is the measurment of the influence to affect an economic exchange. It is the oil in a transaction.
2) When the 1% are given 8+ trillion in free money from Bernanke it is clear that money is being stolen from the public.
3) When capitalism is embodied in a legal framework that permits it to be used as a weapon to mortally harm the 99% via starvation, withholding drugs for a profit, and more it is called mass-murder.
4) When the 1% create a scheme to inflate stock prices (8+ trillion free money), thus elevating the intrinsic worth of the 1% above the entire human race, it is clear that they are stealing influence from the poor, and thus the poor lack the means to affect economic exchange via money because of an unparalleled injustice.
Oooops. There is the "J" word again!
Remember: Our fulcrum is the truth and our lever is the "J" word.
Money is printed under the authority of a country. It is better to use the term "wealth". Wealth is created when someone farms, mines or makes something from raw materials and turns it into something useful. So wealth in the case of a manufacturing company is created by the manufacturing of products. That manufacturing is the result of the creative thinking, risk taking and labor of some people and the labor of others. In the US we ask to be hired and are free to quit. I don't see any stealing, do you?
By the way, what happens when the "wealth" that the farmer/miner/worker creates doesn't exactly equal the amount of "money" that that individual receives as compensation for this wealth creation? Perhaps the "invisible hand" is pocketing the remainder?
To me, this seems to be an idealized view of a system that has become conspicuously corrupted. In fact, the problem of free market economics is that it has historically lead to such corruption on a consistent basis. Monopolies are the inevitable result of a totally unregulated economy, and they are devastatingly efficient at accumulating "wealth", but they are incredibly inefficient at serving the needs of society.
We live in a time of income inequality that hasn't been seen since the Great Depression. (I'll spare you the statistics). Can you honestly say that this level of inequality is an efficient use of or society's resources, and is simply a reasonable reward for the "1%'s" contributions to society? Doesn't this inequality have an effect on social mobility that stifles innovation and drastically limits risk taking to the few who can already afford it?
Instead of monopoly its a conglomerate. They just changed the name.
Got it. Your economic view would appear to be Marxist in nature, in which case I fully understand your contention that owners/capital providers are stealing from those that work for an enterprise they own. Don't need to argue the point, it is simply a difference of economic belief. I believe that Capitalism, while absolutely not perfect, is a better alternative to any of the various forms of Collectivism. I may be wrong.
Honestly I don't know what "collectivism" in America would look like, I just can't imagine it so I can't make any judgment about it. Perhaps we can agree to at least try to make capitalism more perfect in the mean time, and then we'll figure out something else if/when that doesn't work out? I don't know what the future should look like, but I hope it's not like the present.
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Who is "they"? How did they steal your money?
Labor was stolen from the longshoremen, the truck driver, the ship workers, and the factory worker. All these men and women do ALL the work, and the few lazy leeches on top get rich off of it.
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If they do all the work anyway, then it would seem to me to be a simple matter for them to set up their own company and do it for themselves as an owner/operator.
Yeah, that's super simple when your wages are being slashed. The problem with wealth imbalance is that it stifles opportunity. Still, hopefully you're right and we will eventually see more worker-owned companies.
Nikka, if they become and owner/operator, then they become the boss which means the have no one to gripe about. LOL
uhh you mean a cooperative?
That could be one possible solution. Or single self employed owner/operator. That's what I am.
Trading one's labor for pay is not the same as being victimized by theft. When your mother gave you 5 bucks to mow the lawn, did she steal from you? Or did you earn a wage for your labor? I bet she was richer than you, too.
Not being paid the full product of your labor IS theft.
Craigd89, do you have ANY idea how much some of these longshoremen are making?
and? your point.. How much are the owners and ceos making?.. When the longshoremen take wage cuts will it lower prices of goods? No it will go in the pockets of the shareholders. You right-wingers like to bring up the good wages union workers make, and why do they make good wages? Because they have a seat at the table. Non-union workers DONT. What are you going to tell the bullshit tale of how every longshoremen makes six figures, but that's taking into account overtime.
I love how you just assume I'm a right-winger because I know you're full of shit.
I think he probably assumed you are a right-winger because you are sympathizing with the 1% against the working class. Seems a fair assumption.
The 44 bit is telltale. Jimmys fulltime. Lol.
Wait, let me make sure I understood what you just wrote. You back up the assumption that I am a right-winger, and add to it that I am sympathizing with the 1% against the working class, and all this is because I asked if craigd89 knew how much these longshoremen earned? SERIOUSLY?
You know, you could have just answered the question, rather than throw TOTALLY baseless accusations. What's next - are you going to call me a bigot too?
This sort of bs is one of the reasons the OWS movement is losing mass support. Pathetic.
I did answer the question
Jimmy I've seen a hundred of you're posts and you're clearly right-wing, it's not an assumption.
I respect your right to disagree, but you don't respect ours. That is made clear by you coming on these message boards and trying to cause trouble. I don't go on TP message boards and spout off OWS propaganda because even though I disagree with many things about the TP, I respect that they are actually out there trying to make a change.
I have never been on a tea party board in my life (I'm guessing that's what you mean by TP) so you're clearly an idiot to continue assuming I am a right-winger tea party member. Just because you don't agree with me does not make me a right-winger or TPer or whatever else you decide to call me because you can't handle it. I do respect that the TP can have a mass protest and not destroy property and bait police into arresting them so they can use it as examples of police brutality. LOL..
I didn't say you were a part of the TP I said you were a right-winger, and you are. The fact that you're lowering yourself to the point of character assassination shows you have nothing of real substance say
Longshoremen work hard, and they deserve every penny of it. We all deserve to be paid more. A 40 hour work week used to be a 40 hour work week, but is no longer. We work harder, but our wages have been stagnating for 30 years. Meanwhile the wealth of the 1% grows and grows, and we just let it happen. Some of us even try to protect them.
I don't intend to pigeon hole you. I'm sure that if we had a conversation there's a lot that we could agree on. But when you imply that the longshoremen don't deserve the wages they're getting it sounds like you are just repeating right-wing talking points. No disrespect, but I think you should try to think about the issue from the side of the workers and their families. We're all in this together.
You don't need to lecture me. I just took a 10% pay cut and I'm already struggling.
I'm not trying to lecture you. I think that's terrible, it's unfair and it's happening to so many people in this country (personally I was unemployed for most of last year, and my new job is hardly enough to live off of). Meanwhile the wealthiest of the wealthy are seeing their earnings go through the roof. And for what? This is exactly what we are all protesting against.
I understand that you don't want to be lectured. I think it's hard to make a comment in these online forums without it seeming like a lecture or a talking point, but that's not my intention.
I think you should join our movement. We're all in this together and we could learn a lot from you. We need all the 99%, and you're right, we need to forget these labels of "liberal" or "conservative". These terms only serve to divide us.
RIGHT! Isn't the bottom line really about changing a system that encourages monopolies... that aquire so much wealth that they can "buy" the power of a nation to govern itself? Isn't it about finding a system that allows for the 1% to have their $ without everybody else becoming impotent boardgame pieces? There must be a win/win somewhere!
Then quit bitching and stop pointing your finger at other workers, I love how workers get jealous of other workers and blame them for earning good wages. Well guess what union workers fought and won the right to bargain for fair wages, instead of trying to knock them down because YOU'RE getting screwed, how about you stop being a bitch and organize.
I think they have a representative union that works out an agreement as to what their labor is worth, which both parties sign. Did you have another way of determining worth?
Well I don't know, how about the sweat shop worker whose making 150 dollar shoes, they get paid a few dollars a week, while they produce millions of dollars worth of goods in a year. Who sees all that money?, certainly not the worker.
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I'm not sure this is a great analogy... my mother was richer than me, AND she completely supported me as well... Corporations aren't people and they're not our mommy... Hey though, if some corporation wants to pay me to cut the grass and then completely support me, maybe I'll agree to be good and stay in my room while the adults play Global Control.
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Were any longshoreman forced to work? Can't they quit when they want?
I think they traded their labor for pay that both sides agreed to, wouldn't you agree?
Exactly! The plan is they are going to quit work for a day on 12/12. Then maybe the owners and managers will reconsider slashing their pay and benefits below the levels that were originally agreed to.
Many of them can't quit because they have families to support, mortgages to pay, and there aren't a lot of other job opportunities for them. The fact that they continue to work hard even though they're underpaid is a testament to their work ethic, not to the fairness of their wages.
Isn't that the benefit of a union contract?..being able to bargain for pay and benefits?..Don't right-wingers hate unions?
U cant bargain in good faith with cronies
I think most would call me right wing, but I think unions are a good thing as long as they don't force people to join, force non-union workers to pay dues or do anything else to trample on the rights of others. To use their combined strength to negotiate with a company is smart. Public employee unions are a different case because the wages are not being paid by the people they negotiate with, but by the taxpayer.
Did these workers get paid ? Bet they did. Did someone force them to work and provide their service ? Bet not.
uhh everyone is forced to work, how do you pay for rent and buy food? There is no voluntary exchange of goods or labor, because in the real world the choice for people is work or starvation.
Not the OWS members who have "occupied" our nation over the last 2 months. They wouldn't do as much work as to even pick up after themselves.
Are you espousing a different way, where work is not required? Love to know what that is? (some OWS'ers seem to think the answer is to tax the wealthy more, and more, to pay for those who don't/won't work)
Our economic system is incredibly wasteful. We have the technology to drastically reduce the amount of work that is required for society, yet we're so stuck in an 1800s mindset that we can't actually use its potential. Most jobs are geared towards extracting a profit and increasing consumption, but is that really socially useful? Technology will drastically change the labor market in the coming generation and it's time to have an honest discussion and re-imagine the world we want to live in.
Maybe people should work less. If we went to a 35 hour work week from a "40" hour work week that for many is really 50 - 60 hours, we would all have more time to spend with our/friends families, and companies would need to (finally) go on a hiring spree.
There was a time not long ago when the idea of a weekend was unthinkable. It is once again time to rethink our current situation.
Try reading something other than the national enquirer, Then perhaps you would know what's going on in this country, When you lose your job and home perhaps then you will wake up. And as for the rest of you children isn't it passed your bed time.
so you have no answer....
Yes all power to the productive class which is the working class. Everyone knows that the root of our problems is the leech class we can't see living in luxury.
Wrong. The root of our problems is corrupt government.
The most productive people are the risk takers with the creativity to start businesses that produce things that people want. Without them there would be no jobs, no products; we would be still be hunting and gathering off the land and living like animals.
Yes, those risk takers. The ones that "produced" CDOs, mortgage backed securities, derivatives etc. Real productive.
Guess what? most of those people are the so called 1%
You're ignoring the fact that the elite class is the one corrupting politicians. Both are equally part of the problem.
The elite class is not corrupting politicians, you always have a choice. You CAN say no to bribes, being honest is possible.
...and yet so many find it so difficult.
Why did you take out so much debt that when you hit a bump it all came crashing down? You were living beyond your means. You obviously do not have enough self worth for anyone to hire you. Of coarse it is the fault of the company that laid you off in order to maintain jobs for people who brought value to the company. Go get an education in an industry that is useful and stop taking out debt. If you cant pay for it with cash, then you don't need it.
Where does money come from? Does it come from rich people? Do rich people "make" money and then "give" it to workers? Or does money come from the workers' labor? What happens if the workers aren't fully paid for their time and hard work (or for example if they have their retirement plans cut)? Has the 1% just "made" money, or have they stolen it?
Apparently someone down at the port jacked jimmy dee's billfold and you don't play jimmy dee like that.
Please contact LECH WALESA, leader of the solidarity movement in Poland, winner of the Nobel Peace Prize. Try to get his support for the OAKLAND PORT SHUTDOWN, he organized labor to shut down ports in Gdansk in protest of restrictive labour policies. He was going to attend Occupy New York, but he was lied to by a conservative interest group that told him the occupy protests were about establishing communism. I don't know if this is a rumor or not, but he was planning on attending, and now he is not. Getting his support would be HUGE for the occupy movement.
http://online.wsj.com/article/APb6ba79d7a2c741ddb02b45462a3ad68e.html
http://biggovernment.com/aandrzejewsk/2011/10/21/lech-walesa-not-attending-occupywallstreet-in-new-york-after-discovering-hard-left-organizers/
In Solidarity, Reuben Borowski of Occupy Denver
I worked as a merchant marine for more than thirty years as a merchant marine, and raised three dynamic young ladies. People used to ask me what the difference was between a merchant marine and a long shoreman. I would tell them that merchant marines work and live on a boat, and long shoremen work on the "beach", and that long shoremen were not near as handsome or intelligent as mm's. Well, I humbly take the latter comment back. You guys are alright, and I am proud of the stand that you are taking.
This needs to be spread!
Wall Street Lobbyist Target Occupy Movement http://youtu.be/TJf8R4QwI0Y Again, Lobbyists, the federal reserve, and of course the federal government has to be the targets!
That is a brilliant idea!!! Long live the 99%!!!!! Pay them back for the brutality that the police brought to the University of California campus!!
You are absolutely clueless as to what OWS was originally about, aren't you.
That's a rhetorical question btw, genius.
I can only hope that the whole point of this activity does not boil down to the "alligator-swamp" thing and hinge on the word WAS.
Please forgive me ramous, I just scrolled down to make more space in my little box and I read your post. You got to the point first, you deserve the honor, thanks.
Originally, being the operative word. Now its violence and 'payback', and burning down the house because you don't like the wallpaper and are too lazy to change it.
I have heard of no violence from any protester. Got evidence? Several windows were broken in Oakland, grant you that (you an get a first hand report if you want), but that before the police started their crackdown; since then no reports of violence by any proster has come in.
I don't spend all my time in this fucking forum.
"I don't need evidence ... I heard it." -- Michele Bachmann
You too could be president!
All you need to do is read the official occupy news headline at the top of this thread. Taking over ports is not peaceful. Its terrorism with a good marketing strategy.
My friend Ray can relate to what you said greg2. Took forever for him to get that Purple Heart because of all the paperwork. Wait a while and you will get your report of violence you been waiting for.
Apples and Oranges dude. No sympathy from me; many guys got 'em. Many post-humously.
BTW Here are a couple links reporting protester violence:
http://blogs.wsj.com/metropolis/2011/11/17/two-cops-injured-during-occupy-protests/ http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/11/17/protesters-and-officers-clash-near-wall-street/?hp
Takes little time to find "reports" on the web, and that's why I came back, to show these links.
Still, it is, by all findings, that the cops are more violent by about 99:1. Ha!
Join us.
More bank robbers get arrested for robbing a bank than do cops so what is your point.
PS I do not laugh at anyone and not at most things. Though I do enjoy a good laugh every day. My friend Ray picks up those funny hand drawn cartoons that they pass around at the banks every day among the tellers. Some of them would leave with more than one HA.
I surely hope you don't believe OWS was about the stupid free market Ron Lawlites
You are absolutely clueless as to how working people flex their muscles in public. Were you one of those saying we didn't know what we wanted? This is what we wanted: A National Strike. Our own economy. Not one run by China or Wall Street.
Who is "our" ? Who will run it? With what qualifications ? So easy to arm chair quarterback, perhaps the whole works can hold hands, sing Kumbahya and magically goods and services will appear and be shared by all.
Yes because Share Holders and CEOS actually "run" companies.
Community banks are own by the account holders not by investors.
Incorrect. Community banks are owned by shareholders, either public or private. In the 1970's and 1980's, there were some mutual savings banks in existence that were in fact owned by depositors. These are long gone.
accend credit union- look it up
I think a credit union is different from a bank.
What does this even mean ? (and by the way, shareholders, be they common or preferred, have no operational role in a company in which they own shares)
C.E.O.'s can be shareholders in their own companies, but I get your point
Again....they are making the word Justice into the "J" word.
Our fulcrum is truth and our lever is our demand for Justice!
No, I saw one the other day. If he hadn't been over 50 and terribly overweight, it might have been interesting - but that was gross.
Thanks, I got my clue from him - and I ain't lookin again.
My friend Ray has an offer. Since the world is getting real crowed lately, and you want your own space, but may have a hard finding that space, he is willing to let you have 40 acres on his wife's family ranch here in Arizona. He has no problem at all with your wishes. You can develop your own economy. He will personally guarantee you that neither China or Wall Street will give a damn about anything you do on the 40 acres unless you decide to build a Wal Mart without his permission, the strike thing will be your responsibility because Ray just doesn't see anything to stike against if you got your own economy. Same attitude he has towards Cuba and a few other places he has only read about.
run by you then? tell me, what are your policies?
"Occupy Wall Street is leaderless resistance movement with people of many colors, genders and political persuasions. The one thing we all have in common is that We Are The 99% that will no longer tolerate the greed and corruption of the 1%. We are using the revolutionary Arab Spring tactic to achieve our ends and encourage the use of nonviolence to maximize the safety of all participants.
This #ows movement empowers real people to create real change from the bottom up. We want to see a general assembly in every backyard, on every street corner because we don't need Wall Street and we don't need politicians to build a better society."
Right there on the frontpage.
Greg, I'm advocating for a different approach than "OCCUPY." I'm advocating just this very grassroots approach but one that uses "ENGAGEMENT" -- not a raised fist but an extended hand. I'm championing taking the already-robust "local" movement (it's happening across the country with food distribution, food consumption, local shops that are both store and community center, credit unions) and pushing THIS as real change for a better society. (Campaign reform and tax law changes are definitely something needed -- but those are real tangible requests that we CAN push through.) We don't even need civil disobedience because we'll all be too busy crafting a new society from within. :) Thoughts?
You are dreaming. We need action. Not warm fuzzies.
Uhhhh, yeah. All that is action. Shouting at rich people is not action, it's catharsis. :)
Yes it looks good on paper. Go down there and try to motivate a few people, and you'll promptly be told "FUCK OFF, you're not in charge of me!".. yeah that's all working out great for you morons isn't it. Then there's the infighting between your own so-called leaders, who aren't really leaders, they're just ..um ..leading. Yeah that's it. You're all equal, just some are more equal then others, right? You fucking moron.
This isn't communism. Funny thing is we don't need to motivate anyone. The people we need will come of their own accord. If the people want change they will come here.
Don't limit your praise greg2. Please include, sexual preferences, criminal records, weights, religious persuasions, ages, financial status, educational attainment.
Somehow, my friend Ray wants to fit in here. Ray said he was empowered once and it has bothered him every since. That was during the stint in Nam. Being empowered to kill a fellow human kinda bothered with his religious empowerment. But, the Army has a way of empowering "real people to create real change". He is just saying.............
Absolutely correct. This is not anything like what ows was when it started. I was very excited about the movement. This stuff is absolute crap though, just destructive bullshit, and I'm no longer a supporter as a result.
“There's a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious—makes you so sick at heart—that you can't take part. You can't even passively take part. And you've got to put your bodies upon the gears and upon the wheels, upon the levers, upon all the apparatus, and you've got to make it stop. And you've got to indicate to the people who run it, to the people who own it that unless you're free, the machine will be prevented from working at all.”-- Mario Savio
Unless you're free, the machine must be prevented from working at all. This is a necessary form of destruction.
If the machine you are referring to is OWS then sign me up.
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just beat it then since your not a supporter
Exactly the attitude that will further marginalize ows. This movement was inclusive but unfortunately became inclusive of people like you who go around telling others to shut up and fall in line with a destructive agenda.
A revolution takes guts and courage.
And brains. You forgot brains.
According to a 15 November Siena College poll, by a 57-40% margin, New Yorkers think Occupy Wall Street should be allowed in public parks around the clock.
I wonder what the sample size was? And demographic and socio-economic make up? Polls are tricky to interpret unless those parameters are known.
http://www.siena.edu/uploadedfiles/home/parents_and_community/community_page/sri/sny_poll/SNY%20October%2018%202011%20Poll%20Release%20--%20FINAL.pdf
Like most polls conducted by academic institutions, it is conducted according to standard statistical practices and they fully disclose their methods and standard error.
Randomized calls with 800 people, margin of error is 3.5%. To understand how this works, I recommend learning about "confidence intervals".
All the demographics match the area somewhat closely. If anything, it is skewed towards the wealthy due to its reliance on permanent telephone numbers.
Party: Democrat - 48%, Republican - 24%, Independent/Other - 25%
Political View: Liberal - 27%, Moderate - 43%, Conservative - 26%
Age: 18 to 34 - 22%, 35 to 54 - 37%, 55 and older - 37%
Ethnicity: White - 75%, African American/Black - 8%, Latino - 8%
Income: less than $50K - 29%, $50K to $100K - 31%, $100K or more - 28%.
That's irrelevant to whether they support it. I'm all in favor of OWS, bankers, the KKK, or whatever group's right to protest. Whether they can camp out or not is up to the municipality. The fact that the citizens of a municipality believe you have the right to camp doesn't mean they will join you, especially when you intentionally disrupt the economy their livelihoods depend on.
How could it be irrelevant? The poll reflects that most of the New Yorkers see the value of OWS and are going to show their support.
Whether or not people have the right to camp out is a separate issue from whether they should be "supported." I think the KKK should have the same right to protest or camp as OWS. I will not support either. Neither will the vast majority of New Yorkers.
Until, of course, it's too late...? Well GOOD ON YOU, smart-guy...
Your opinion differs from the poll my friend. Why are you on the web site if you don't want to support OWS? You think your teaching us anything with wise crack remarks?
No. I wasn't wise-cracking. OK, so a poll that finds 57% of responders behind the right of protest groups to camp out in parks means that the majority of New Yorkers are on the verge of joining OWS. Fine. That's what it means. You win.
I really hope you consider rejoining the movement, chunky. You seem like a really smart person and I think we could really benefit from the support of someone like you, but I don't think you're ever going to find a movement that you agree with 100%. Especially a movement like OWS that has so many different viewpoints because it is so inclusive.
If OWS isn't your cup of tea, I would encourage you not to wait until "another movement comes along." Keep fighting the good fight in your own way!
Thanks corbini! That's exactly what I'll do. :)
Didn't say they were joining but they are in favor of OWS.
You already said you are no longer support the movement so go back and be a good little servant to your leaders that want to enslave you.
It is possible to be a servant of neither. Because I do not join OWS does not make me your class enemy nor does it make me a slave. I have a mind of my own. I will withhold my support until a movement against WS corruption emerges that deserves my support.
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What economy? Wake up.
If somebody comes into the park will you tell them to "beat it" unless they think shutting down ports is a good idea?
I'm for stopping government coruption and before it's over I'm guessing it's going to get pretty messy. Wish I could attend the meeting in In Oakland: the West Coast Port Shutdown Coordinating Committee will meet on General Assembly days at 5pm before the GA to organize the local shutdown, and to network with other occupations.
lol, a college poll. Why don't you go to a place where people work for a living and take a poll?
The poll is conducted BY the college, not OF the college.
http://www.siena.edu/uploadedfiles/home/parents_and_community/community_page/sri/sny_poll/SNY101811%20Crosstabs.pdf
Here's the income breakdown of those that were polled: less than $50k - 29%, $50K to $100K - 31%, over $100K - 28%.
I encourage you to add constructive comments to the discussion rather than trying to derail it.
my intentions are to derail it. sorry for my lack of information on this one though.
lol :)
Yup. Do as I say, not as I do. One of them even tried the race card on me.
Would you say the Boston Tea Party wasn't destructive? and on a side note, Are founding fathers gave us the 2nd Amendment for a reason. ;)
Jus Sayin...
Is this the tea party now? I thought we were more like trying to follow the example of the civil rights movement. If we were doing that I'd be way more on board. I guess you have a point. Yes, Boston Tea Party was a destruction of property, so it was. And a different political group has already co-opted it for its symbolism, a group which is quite destructive in its own right. You make a very nuanced and rich point though I suspect it wasn't your intention to do so. That group is also very "liberal" - in its interpretation of the second amendment. Are you sure you're on the right web site?
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My friend Ray uses the same procedure. He and his wife invited us over this coming Thursday. Really looking forward to it. My mouth is watering even as we speak. Thanks for sharing fulosers. Have a great one.
I will share my Grandma's recipe for black walnut cake when I have time.
How does shutting down a port that is exporting US goods, get back at the police who are directed by our elected officials?
What's this? Are we exporting something? I don't believe it.
You do realize that the U.S. is the world's largest exporter, right?
http://www.census.gov/indicator/www/ustrade.html
"The Nation's international trade deficit in goods and services decreased to $43.1 billion in September from $44.9 billion (revised) in August, as exports increased more than imports. "
Yay! (I think.)
Ray thinks we are exporting some questionable things. Just his extensive analysis of the situation which brings into question a matter regarding where all the great ideas and ideals of this movement have gone. Perhaps in a container on a big ship and poof - The Osama disappearing act.
Its like this, doggma, if we shut down a port, (which is unlawful, and is there really anybody so clueless who thinks its not? or so stupid that they think shutting a port falls under 'peaceful assembly?') it keep all the workers from going to work that day and earning their living. That way it will send our clear message!-- that we are occupying the port!
This is how it works doggma. OOOOO. These are five of the different descriptions about how it works. Another would be a hampster in a cage, but my computer is very limited when it comes to drawing hampsters in cages.
In plain English, if you can chase it around in enough circles, suddenly you can make sense of it - you and I can't make any sense of it - but they can. My friend Ray calls them the " fart advanced educationally"
Excuse me, there seems to be a typing error and spelcheck didn't even let me know. I'll change it sometime just to get back at the mean old police.
LOL don't try applying logic or common sense with these people - they are not capable of it.
self governance and self education is they key. Also purchase from local farms and boycott large grocery chains. be the change you want to see in the world
This is too difficult. Not everyone can afford this or have the time. We have to have a middle way and find something in between. These kind of actions you speak of are what make people apathetic.
nobody said it was going to be easy. we just need to show up and things will start to take care of themselves. People in fear and depression are what causes apathy. these mindsets have been pushed through the evening news and television drama and sitcoms. it is up to us to overcome them. Stay positive and up beat. turn that frown upside down. =)
Socialist and Communist dogmas aside, the present face of the United States is neither Democracy nor Socialist. It has a strong bent towards the following... fas·cism[ fá shìzzəm ] NOUN
There's even more to fascism (see Sparta), but what you have so far is on point.
It's great how powerfully OWS has linked up with working class struggles in support of unions, and I hope these actions can be carried out with union participation. But will the OWS actions put longshoremen at risk of losing their jobs? If you could please give us some more information and/or links I'd really appreciate it. Great job! Solidarity!
Here's some info from ILWU, longshore workers union which has been working to get contracts honored and needs this support: http://www.longshoreshippingnews.com/egt/ http://www.ilwu.org/?p=3214
Note that national unions can no longer legally call for a General Strike (incredible, isn't it?), so affinity groups have to organize work stoppage/slowdowns, unions then call out their members to honor the group's picket lines.
Wow, thanks so much. That is incredible that unions can't call a General Strike. I really appreciate this information, and I'll look at the link.
Thanks again.
I fully support and would like to spread this call to action, and I do so with a humble attitude and deep understanding that this is not a light matter, and that it may have significant short-term economic impacts for many people. It will require many people to make a sacrifice, voluntarily or not. It is a dramatic action to take, but we are facing dramatic problems. As a comparison, there is no doubt the original Boston Tea Party caused short-term economic problems for some; but it was a sacrifice that led to greater freedom and prosperity. And there have been countless strikes, boycotts, etc. that in the past that have caused short-term problems but led to long-term solutions. This is how things change. This is how Dr. King and Gandhi did it: create a conflict in which opposing sides are forced to show their true selves. It is not easy, it creates tension and difficulty, but it raises deep issues which are festering up to a level where they can be resolved. Thank you Occupy Oakland for your courage and leadership!
It hurts at first to use hydrogen peroxide to clean a wound, but later it can save you from amputation.
Its coming to that again. We're not pulling out of this recession in 5 or 8 years. Horse is out of the barn already. We still cannot afford cronyism or corrupt government so- we must fix it bcause cronies believe they can take it with em.
For pity's sake, some of you concern trolls need to get a sense of labor history. Sympathy strikes in the ports especially are a common thing, and this is getting OWS back to what it should be--pointing out that the disparity between labor and management is every bit as wide as it was at the beginning of the last century. This is a great idea, and I wish it the greatest success.
I certainly do not get it. If these union workers could get paid better doing something else, why don't they quit? I think they are pretty well paid are they not? If they quit, I bet there are plenty of people willing to take those jobs. I don't understand the animosity towards management. Wasn't the whole business their idea? If they are earning their money legally, what is the complaint?
Sure, they could make more money if they became doctors, but that doesn't mean they don't deserve more money for being longshoreman...
That is the exact mentality the 1% will feed you. Don't you know that a great strategy of large corporate companies, think Micron for instance, is to lay off most of your workers so that you can hire new ones at a lower wage? The 1% wants lower wages so they can have higher profits. To them it's all statistics.
This is not a target, it is a demonstration. If the work that people do is not valued, if the work that they do only earns them inferior status in society, then what is the value of the work that one does? How ports are managed in the U.S. is a subject that deserves greater transparency, since some are supposed to be run by foreign governments, namely China. These jobs that have been funded by our tax dollars are not primarily going to American workers, according to a report by ABC. Apparently a few thousand of the jobs will be contracted out to Chinese firms because they can do the work for cheaper.
"These jobs that have been funded by our tax dollars" - Are you saying that port workers are paid by the government?
Not as far as I know. My use of the word "these" at the beginning of the sentence was used in a colloquial manner, meaning to refer to the jobs that have been created by the stimulus for infrastructure renovation, which are much needed. I don't know about the organization of port workers, but even if they were "government" jobs, they would deserve the right to bargain, as teachers do...except for in Wisconsin.
Companies that build the elevators to move goods/containers demand tax breaks from the states where they build. Then, EGT in particular hires out of state workers cheaper, violating their lease agreement to honor existing longshore contracts. Thus, instead of improving job prospects of traditional unionized loaders/unloaders in the state where they got the tax break, they hire and bring in out of work unionize- in-cheaper-states construction engineers. Rob Peter to hire Paul for less.
There's a LOT of clueless morons in OWS now, unfortunately. The violence has attracted the worst of society to their ranks.
Im not sure how many times we have to repeat this... this is a peaceful movement. there is violence but its on the side of police and evident in thousands of videos posted on youtube
you have to repeat it more times than the very news of this website..because this website belies 'peaceful' in its own words. BLOCK California ports? Do you understand that blocking the ports by show of force, by 'taking them' is not at all peaceful? Use your brain!
peaceful civil disobedience... peaceful in this context does not mean the dictionary definition of peaceful:"Free from disturbance; tranquil". It means peaceful in relation to the other form of civil disobedience a.k.a riots, ect. however, this isnt passive protesting. This is how to get things done, directly interfere with the operations of the one percent e.g. the CEOs of the corps that own the ports. This affects their bottom line: their profit.
"Civil disobedience is the active, professed refusal to obey certain laws, demands, and commands of a government, or of an occupying international power. Civil disobedience is commonly, though not always,[1][2] defined as being nonviolent resistance" It worked for ghandi, It worked for King, it will work again.
fortunately we live in a society where change can be peaceful through methods of media, public awareness, and just sheer numbers. This is not the case in countries like egypt where you are shot for just speaking out.
Peaceful movements don't force the shut down of streets, subways, and ports, start fires, break into buildings, shatter windows of storefronts, block the exits of a building from its occupants, knock cops of motorcycles, and use children as barriers, and they certainly they don't rape it participants...did I forget anything?
This isnt occupy with permission. If we were doing that there would be no attention paid to the movement essentially making it useless. Yes, it inconveniences you a little but the point is to make ourselves seen and since we can't seem to get on Tv, or the radio we are on the streets. as far as the acts of violence you stated Im not sure what source you have seen that from. Everyone actually participating in the movement know to be peaceful and are peaceful. No one can control the rogue people, cia spies, and others that join the protests but have no intention of being peaceful. Lets be real, just as not all cops are there to protect and serve, not all protesters are peaceful.
CIA spies? Isn't that a conspiracy theory? Give me some proof here.
shooting at the White House. Oh that's right, that was on the news one day --that the guy had been part of OccupyDC--and then disappeared.
LMAO ok Skippy, you go right on believing the out-of-context clips and stills and sound bytes. Denial ain't just a river in Egypt. Most of us are well aware of the police baiting going on by OWS members, and that seems to be their primary focus now. What a waste.
It sounds like you need to take a trip down to your local occupy movement. Spend a night down there. Unglue from the TV/radio/internet/newspaper reports. When you have done that come back and tell me if you really still think true what you just said.
I did. I do. Not when they're sitting around, but yes when on marches and confrontations, definitely some are baiting. Note I said some, not all.
One thing you should consider, Occupy Wall Street isn't a political movement, it's a conversation. It has always been intended as a catalyst to drive the conversation of income inequality, and has been very successful. Even though you're not a part of the movement, the very fact that you come on these message boards and discuss the issue is a victory for OWS. You're actually supporting the movement even though you don't realize it.
@corbini, best manipulative 'spin' Ive seen all day. and that you are addressing this, means we are making you think. Use your own head, don't listen to the OWS puppet masters doing your thinking for you. They tell you what to say and where to go and what to do, and you jump. Walk away from it like I did. Listen, listen,to the violence being spoken. That's not ok. Its not! Read the official headline on this news article. Block the ports? That's an act of violence, a forcible occupation, 'taking' an objective. Hear what is being said around you, not what you want them to be saying, but what they are actually saying.
Nobody in OWS condones the violence of the outsiders being sent in by the U.S. Government and other parties.
Stop spreading your lies.
Truth is our fulcrum and our lever is the "J" word.
Impressive reply and response there.
Jimmy, when OWS started, I was there with it and I spent almost two months sitting in a park holding a sign. I watched it get more and more violent and unlawful, and all the time, they were telling themselves this was good and right and important as they wage war on America.
That's my point.. it is no longer what it was intended to be.
Indeed. They have a childlike economic illiteracy. It is a sad thing, and when grouped together they feed upon each other and believe their own nonsense. Wow.
mob mentality.
Yep and it will continue to feed upon itself in a downward spiral. The old ows is gone. This one will end very badly.
Couldn't agree more. The writing is on the wall, literally and figuratively.
As I recall, California turned over part of their soil to China. Thus part of the U.S. has been "surrendured" to foriegn interests.
Our fulcrum is the truth and our lever is the "J" word.
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You are targeting the port you fuckin terrorist. Blow the fucker up!
I don't think you can do it, but I hope like heck that you can. One of the secrets to your success so far has been that its been peaceful. Please work to keep it that way and I'll support you to the end!
peaceful my ass.
Congratulations brave people, keep on fighting. Best wishes from Spaniards in the same fight. It is a global fight.
I think French philospher said this: People are born to ge free yet find themselves everywhere in shackles. Those shackles are only in our minds and once we throw those shackles off, there is nothing else that can stop the people from flooring the 1 % - and that is the need of the moment. I speak from far away and can give little more than moral support - and I am convinced my opportunity for action is not far off. We are headed right. Time for struggle is now. The 1% stand naked now.
until you all at OOGA can stand up and vote in a STRICT NON-VIOLENT CODE how can you expect everyone to get behind your actions. the "by whatever means necessary" argument doesn't fly. the OO GA needs to publicly denounce any violent acts and destruction of property. the effectiveness of your part of the movement is riding on this decision. tell all of those destructive punks to take a hike as they have done nothing but detract from the OWS cause.
When we hang the capitalists they will sell us the rope we use. Joseph Stalin
This is very daring--and very inspiring. Thank you Occupy Oakland!!!
The Main Stream Media is telling everyone that Occupy Wall Streeters are a bunch of whining irresponsible losers that do not know what they want.
Occupy Wall Streeters know what they want, and why they want it. You may not fully understand what is going on, but if you are having problems paying your bills due to a lack of work or opportunities, you are already feeling the reasons why people are occupying Wall Street.
The first and most important thing that Occupy Wall Street people want is the abolishment of the Federal Reserve Bank. The reason why? Because it is a private bank that issues the money of our country under Usury to the detriment of all the people that do not own a share in the Federal Reserve Bank.
The second thing Occupy Wall Street people want is competing currencies. By having competing currencies you remove from the Central Bank the awesome power to leave you homeless at their whim.
You will see Occupy Wall Streeters with different signs and slogans, but that does not mean they do not know what they want, they do, and do not let the government media tell you differently. If you let government shape your view of the Occupy Wall Street movement, you will soon find yourself unable to pay your rent or mortgage, unemployed and unable to feed your children.
All we ask is for a fair chance to compete, and that begins by abolishing the Federal Reserve Bank and having competing currencies
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That's right. Let's shut down the economy. No one needs trade.
Let's abolish money. Everything should be free.
But if there is no money, I don't get paid. I can't buy groceries, I can't buy anything.
But if I don't get paid and can't buy anything, why should I work?
I guess I could just stand it line at the nearest Occupy office and wait for them to issue me my equal share of food.
That doesn't sound to appealing.
Don't exaggerate things.
National credit bank replaces the fed. Money still exists. Regulated by democratically elected officials. Relax and get educated. Have a thought of your own. do it. It feels good, and is slimming, too....
Thats why it didn't work in any of the communist countries who tried it.
Why does OWS allow government trolls to comment on this website, where people come seeking the truth, not deceitful propaganda from government fascists? These people should have their comments deleted and their profiles banned.
maybe it's better that we all can pick thru and decide for ourselves
Because we're the real 99% and you dragged us into this by saying you spoke for us. We came to speak for ourselves, because you were not doing it right.
That was a rhetorical question. I don't really care about your response. OWS should ban all you scumbags. Go spread your filthy lies elsewhere.
stick your fingers in your ears and say 'nyahh nyahh I can't hear you.'
I spent 5 weeks in an occupy camp and we closed it when we saw the violence OWS was heading for. I do not consider myself a member of OWS any more, but I do remain an experienced part of the dialogue.
http://ows.superunion.org/results/?q=ramous
Right. And anyone believes you. You will collect your karma in the afterlife, government troll scum.
Am I missing something? None of these comments seem to relate to Occupy Oakland and the call for the West Coast Port Shutdown. Before I could support a port shutdown I would want to hear from the ILWU. Its their jobs that we are talking about.
Such a colossal waste of time responding to all the negative attacks against the patriotic supporters of Occupy. We must realize that there are a vast number of ignorant people out there who just can't believe the truth staring them in the face. I understand their fear. Change can be a difficult thing to deal with. As supporters of Occupy, we must do everything we can to educate and support those dealing with these fears. However, getting into verbal altercations is doing us little good and giving ammunition to them. It is a far better tool to disarm them with love and understanding. Perhaps when they see the goodness of the movement and its supporters they will come aboard and join this great adventure. Long Live Occupy!
Very well said GreenMarble this is the attitude that will bring Occupy through.
Out of the parks and into the ports!
I stand with the Occupy Movement. I am grateful to the UC Davis protestors for standing up to the corrupt government and university leadership. Their sacrifice will change minds, converting others through a better understanding of the Occupy Movement. I was able to use it to get members of my own family to learn about the movement and to understand what it is trying to accomplish on their behalf. Thank you.
gota disrupt their wallets do whatever we have to our founding fathers didnt take shit from the british and we havent taken any from anyone else do absolutely whatever is needed to get this counrty back to the people not the government and their corrupt partners
Could be a trap. CFR already define this as a terrorist act. See their website. You all could end up on the watch-list. Very easily. Not a nice place to be. Good luck an be f'n careful.
Ya know, if OWS could convince all the port employees to strike that would be one thing. Unions would possibly pay them strike wages at least and the company would take a hit from no employees and real picket lines. But you can't. Because those workers don't really agree with you. They want to be able to make their living and you are going to take that away from them. This is where you chant, "Shame!" All you are going to do is create a "snow day" of sorts. Workers don't get paid, and work piles up to be muddled through the next day. You aren't making near the impact you think, and you will mostly be hurting the 99%.
"Occupy Oakland calls for the blockade and disruption of the economic apparatus of the 1% with a coordinated shutdown of ports on the entire West Coast on December 12th. The 1% has disrupted the lives of longshoremen and port truckers and the workers who create their wealth, just as coordinated nationwide police attacks have turned our cities into battlegrounds in an effort to disrupt our Occupy movement."
REALLY? So, to help out the Longshoreman, you're going to put them out of business. Did you get their permission to shut them out of their jobs?
--Knave Dave http://www.TheGreatRecession.info/blog
This is domestic terrorism with a good marketing strategy.
Unbelievable. Calling a general strike "domestic terrorism" is the exact message that the 1% are telling you to believe.
Truth is our fulcrum, our voice is our weapon, and our demand for the "J" word is our lever.
Calling it a strike when its a forcible blockade to make the US listen to your political demands is marketing. Calling it a strike to make your boss listen to your wage demands is a strike.
"we can't get jobs. i have an idea, lets make it miserable for those guys who do have jobs." :/
I have a job.
bad idea. this will only worsen the economy and prolong your struggle/poverty
Yeah tell that to our founding fathers I wonder how they would have responded to that attitude.
I'm pretty sure the founding fathers would not want to go on destroy their own economy but thats just a guess
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From the New York Post: “A key Occupy Wall Street leader and another protester who leads a double life as a businessman ditched fetid tents and church basements for rooms at a luxurious hotel that promises guests can ‘unleash [their] inner Gordon Gekko,’ The Post has learned. The $700-per-night W Hotel Downtown last week hosted both Peter Dutro, one of a select few OWS members on the powerful finance committee, and Brad Spitzer, a California-based analyst who not only secretly took part in protests during a week-long business trip but offered shelter to protesters in his swanky platinum-card room.” - hee hee - radicals
The elite respond by saying such things as, "this movement is unfounded because it has no central directive or theme and therefore will not prove out any significant change".......true that it represents many themes and needs. That is exactly why it will ultimately rule. They would prefer to wage a battle head-on with overwhelming force and by their defined rules. Who said," divide and conquer". It may be applicable to OWS. Keep in mind: this is not a war between people, it is certainly not about battles with police forces (remember! Many police and other public workers have lost their jobs because municipalities have gone and are going broke), this is The War - between humanity and an evil system that will be brought down. Inevitable.
I have spread your call for a general strike far and wide to all the indie media and across Facebook. Stuck in Tokyo, but appreciate your courage and stamina. Thank you for your heroic patriotism! This is how the Berlin Wall came down!
I want OWS to succeed, but I'm not convinced that this will be good for PR. http://occupywallst.org/forum/ows-is-becoming-increasingly-unpopular-heres-how-t/
What I don't understand is this - if you think the US is so horrible and all these other countries are so great - then why don't you just move to them?? Why would you stay some place where you feel you are being treated unfairly and unjustly? If you think that the 1% is controlling everything, controlling you - wouldn't the easiest way to stop that be, well, leaving...
You think it's easy huh?? What if we love this country? Then what?! What if we can't bear seeing this country become a haven for political and economic oppression. Moving to another country is a move of a COWARD you hear?! I would rather stand and up for my country and see it become great again.
This is so boring.
And leave all you poor fools to your fate. Would that be human and responsible....? Why not just join the opressors and get rich weakening people then stepping on them? Some of us know how the system works and choose NOT to perpetuate it for personal agrandisment because it makes us feel quite ill. For the same reason we choose to speak and not run from this evil. Don't worry, for myself, if the ignorant don't wake, I will get to MY safe place just before it's too late. Right now, leaving people to it would feel just plain mean. Anyhoo. Have fun, kids.
People often say the truth hurts and the painful reality is that the Occupy movement in London, Ontario sank itself. Torn apart by internal strife, fear and a disastrous public relations strategy, their group efforts quickly evaporated with the morning dew on their now empty campsite.
Read about how it all went wrong here:
www.josephcouture.com “How To Blow a Revolution- The London Model.”
THIS is what I was attempting to discuss in the past few days after OWS movers manifested across 5th Ave and Union Sq. in NYC. Ports!! Be careful! It could be an act of terrorism, it needs to be handled carefully and non-violently.
Indeed. Could be a trap. CFR already define this as a terrorist act. See their website. You all could end up on the watch-list. Very easily.
Violence and disruption is not the answer! Boycott the products they sell and bring them to their knees. We are a civilized country!
The Occupy movement in London, Ontario was a catastrophic failure. The reasons were simple: the group was dominated by fear, internal bickering and a near total lack of public support.
In the end they were utterly unable to overcome any of these obstacles and now they are gone. No trace of them remains after being evicted by police.
Read how it all went wrong here:
www.josephcouture.com “How To Blow A Revolution- The London Model”
"The 1% has disrupted the lives of longshoremen and port truckers" I am sure these working men and women are considered incidental casualties of a greater cause, but are you sure the 99% is not taking more casualties than the 1%? This microscopic sized group of protest leaders pick and choose who can earn a paycheck, and who must be sacrificed for the movement. Occupy seems to be making noise but nothing more.
Closing streets or ports will not bring change only bad press. The 2012 United States House of Representatives elections will be held for all 435 seats and 33 of the 100 US Senate seats come up for re-election. Let the voices of the 99%er’s be heard to take back the Congress where the real power is and where the Lobbyists money is spent. The Presidential election will take care of itself if you do your part.
"We do not support an election campaign for 2012. At all. We have removed election material for Obama, Paul, Warren, Paul, Cain, Paul, Perry, Paul, the green party, Paul, Nader, Paul, and did I mention Paul? The spamming by the Ron Lawl 2012 fan club was getting out of hand. We will continue to remove such material and any call for the Paul 2012 campaign will, at this point, be considered spamming. End of. We're tired of hearing about it. Main street debates are also largely off topic." Read the Rules
Yay, lets hurt the California Economy even more!!!!!! Lets stop all the port jobs on December 12th. All the OWS protestors that aren't working should protest all the other hard working Americans that are working at the ports. Oh, and we can rack up some more debt for the cities by employing police for overtime because they will have to deal with the protestors. Oh wait, the CEO isn't really going to be hit that hard if the ports close for a couple of days because they will still be working, but the longshoremen will lose their wages and be hit harder. Get a job or go start a commune and quit complaing. Stop trying to destroy and instead try to create. Use some logic.
Inform yourself. It's the longshore workers who are trying to get their contracts honored, and asking for support. General Strikes by national unions have been criminalized (because they work, because they force the 1% to negotiate as equals), so outside groups have to organize them.
If the CEO is not going to be hurt and the longshoreman and others will be then the system needs changing. It is not reason to myob and just do your job. Workers can't afford to strike but they do because they are more than the CEO's pawns. When workers strike they prove they create the wealth and they do not have to put up with it being ripped off them.
Now that's thinking outside the box; if only more occupiers could think outside their own...
Popular sovereignty is one of the six foundational principles upon which the US Constitution is built. The other five principles are: limited government, separation of powers, checks and balances, judicial review, and federalism. Each of gives the Constitution a basis for authority and legitimacy.
Bring the protest the the homes of the mayors in your cities and the police action will stop.
** Shut it down.
** Unfair Trade policies are part of the problem
Spot on correct. Great post. Lost on many OWS'ers I am afraid, but thanks for posting this sound summary.
Right on!
i watched the occupy oakland GA livestream, the vote was 207 "for", 0 "against", 2 people "stand aside"......
http://www.occupywallst.org/forum/occupy-oakland-just-voted-to-close-down-the-ports-/
obviously there are critics who question how come 200 ppl decide what several thousand people may do.
some animals are more equal than others
If you want to vote, show up.
If it gets bad enough, the US may decide to take military action to keep their economy alive. I hope that doesn't happen.
I'm a huge fan, but you need to unite the working class behind you - not divide it. The last thing you should consider is taking food off the tables of other working class folks. There are better targets.
You have to look at the bigger picture here. This is not a zero sum game. This is a show of worker strength. If we keep going with the status quo it will soon be too late. It's time for the working class to fight back.
Perhaps. But I'm seeing a sudden big momentum shift this weekend. Lots of outrage. The internet coverage is getting more dramatic and up-to-the-minute. And more folks seem to be realizing they need to be a part of it. It might be going viral now. But what do I know. The last time I was gassed and chased by cops was on the mall in DC two years into the Vietnam anti-war movement. You've covered that same ground in 2 months, and let's face it...you are Oakland! ;-)
thanks for your service in the anti war
Somebody has never experienced being the target of the 1% and suffered all of the economic harm that comes with such an experience.
All we want is for the "J" word to be a noble word. Not the filth the 1% has created.
how can the non working class tell the working class what to do??? Not everyone is going to be for this. There will be a lot of unhappy people who think OWS is out to get them. And ports are almost impossible to get into.
I read the details of this labor dispute, and actually it's the foreign grain export company that is dividing two unions, the longshore workers who've had their contract for over 80 years, and unionized construction engineer workers from states where wages/pensions are cheaper - after the company, EGT, got tax breaks from WA state to build and hire here. Rather than create more jobs, they are importing cheaper workers from out of state. The longshore workers can't call for a general strike (it's against the law!), so they need support from affinity groups to support their call to honor their contract.
All strikes are controversial - all entail blocking production/delivery of things/services others rely on. But no other method forces the 1% to deal with workers as equals - that's why general strikes are illegal.
supported!
Dear Protesters - Do you realize who you are actually hurting on Monday when you shut down all of these ports? You may think you are hurting the companies that have products on those boats, but your not. Your giving them a business expense, that's all. The CEO's, the VP's, and the Directors are still going to get their big fat bonuses. If you are expecting them to even blink, much less drop to their knees and realize their evil ways, you are wrong. The hard working folks that work every day on those docks. That's who you are going to hurt. You are going to hurt the very people you say you are supposedly fighting for. The 99%. You won't make a single penny of a dent in the paychecks of the fat cats at those companies, but you will deprive hard working people of their payday. They won't be able to feed their families that day because of you.
Do I have a better idea? YES. Why not focus your energies towards a more effective demonstration? I'll give you nice juicy one. Over paid athletes and actors. Do you remember when the NBA lockout was happening recently? The players and owners were fighting over billions of dollars. Both sides of that argument make millions of dollars every year when most of us are lucky to even have a job. Do you know that an average NBA player makes $475,000 per GAME. Yes, per GAME. That's a hell of a lot more money than most of their customers/fans make in ten years. Greg Oden of the Blazers has not played in 2 years, probably won't play this year, and he STILL gets paid millions of dollars. If you want to hit them where it hurts, why not block sporting events? Why not block movie theaters? If fans can't get in to see their team play, the owners and the players don't get paid. You need to be consistent and do it a number of times. And it's something you can do without hurting good hard working people. Sure, there are people that bought season tickets that will lose out, but that's money already spent. You are not taking anything away from them.
I believe in the idea of fighting against the inequality of wealth in this country, but when that fight comes at the expense of the people you are trying to fight for, I can't support that.
Do you know that most people don't vote? Do you realize what would happen if the 99% actually voted? Do you realize how much power that is? A few weeks ago I heard about some senator who voted down a bill because it would raise taxes for the rich, him included. I think he even said he voted it down because he did not want his taxes to go up. Do think he actually voted based on what the people he supposedly represents thought? No, he voted based on his own personal feelings. I don't think you should be allowed to run for office if you make anything over what 80% of the people in the country make.
How is a strategy of cutting off work to fellow 99%-ers helpful? I'm genuinely curious. As a social worker I support the ideas behind occupy, but I can't help but worry that shutting down ports, going into stores where people (also 99%-ers) work and making a mess (by filling baskets up and leaving them) is only alienating the exact base of people you'd want to align yourself with. It feels a little self-righteous and presumptuous to do it. Can we move beyond gorilla tactics to more meaningful strategies, policies and actions?
Congratulations and good luck! Only wish Londoners had your spirit!
Please add this strategy to the mix as well: http://99ersunite.tumblr.com/post/13136415474/dear-occupy-time-for-phase-two Here is some artwork ready to go: http://citizensanonymous.tumblr.com/
I'm living on the West Coast where the labor battle with EGT is taking place. I am not sure how all of this will work, but it seems that in order for this shutdown to work, we have to have plenty of demonstrators at each gate at all 19 West Coast deep-water ports. There have to be enough activists holding signs at each port gate to cause labor arbitrators to say it is unsafe for Longshoremen and Port employees to go to work. If the Port Shutdown is a good idea, would you all like to come to the West Coast to help us?
I live in downtown Oakland. Occupy Oakland are completely incompetent clowns. They've moved around from site to site over the last few days -- getting evicted (justifiably so) from every site that they're moved to.
My understanding is that the Longshoreman are completely opposed to this strike.
Sympathetic with the idea, but Hawai'i (and Occupy Honolulu) needs food! O'ahu only has an 11 day supply, does not grow enough to feed itself, depends on shipping from US West coast. I can eat coconuts, but my animals can't.
Those who will lose in this are the 99%ers who work at the ports and need the day's wages to meet their bills. If the collateral damage is too large at these actions it might backfire. It's a calculated risk that needs objective thought. Let's figure out how to let the masses really know that the politicians they elected allow themselves to be owned and manipulated by the lobbyists hired by the no-conscious corporations.
What will happen to the people who work at these ports? Are they supposed to not get paid for that day because we shut down their jobs?
I love you all. Thank you for not bickering and fighting in the comments section. I have been dreaming this day would come, but had no idea how to start such a movement. I feel so connected with everyone here. We need a direct democracy. We weren't ready for a direct democracy 234 years ago when our founding fathers created the system, but now since we have the internet, it just seems so obvious, to me, to change the system and adapt to the world around us. We should be able to impeach a leader with the click of a mouse. That would put the fear into being a politician!!
Thanks GreenMarble - I had not read the Declaration of Independence in some time. It gives me chills. One cannot suppress an idea. It is unfortunate that in America some elites feel empowered to use public resources to suppress the very public they are supposed to serve. It seems the great vampire squid has friends in high places. But then we already knew that. The 99% have woken, we need candidates and then we can take back the government. We need to make sure that the Constitution is not compromised by the oligarchy. OA, your goal to shut down all California ports is noble. At the same time, let's keep our focus on long term as well. We have to get into the government and take away the oligarchy’s money laundering conduit.
It is no longer sufficient to throw our bodies into the cogs of the machine to make it stop. No we must destroy the machine and replace it with a new one that satisfies the demands for justice.
Shut down the PORTS! Break the machine! Settle for nothing less!
A real solution for us. http://occupywallst.org/forum/some-food-for-thought/
Holy Moses...I thought Californians were easy going and laid back lol...till riled up, won't take no more. I think it would be good if people could form an on and offline teach in about why this action is necessary because on youtube and other sites; there are people who are focused on being blocked from work,school and such; and can't see beyond their own needs. Perhaps if we can get to these people and support them in understanding this mass action; it might help.
Yes. The Occupation moves forward. Time for Change!
Wow, now thats a response that makes. They throw us stones we throw them boulders! Paralyze the mother f...rs, the whole nation must follow suit, from west to east and the middle. Paralyze and decapitate their wealth and cause them irrecovrable losses like they never seen in their miserable lives!!!!
http://www.amazon.com/Throw-Them-All-Out-ebook/dp/B0062N35X8/ref=pd_rhf_se_p_t_3
A song for OWS... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FM3KR9dEOk
A song for OWS... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FM3KR9dEOk
We should also be protesting that the cargo that comes through those ports are mostly items made using sweatshop labor.
Ninety-six year old activist, Grace Lee Boggs offers her concept of the revolution. I am inspired.
http://www.commondreams.org/video/2011/11/21-0.
I hope you'll check it out.
Why stop with the ports?? If you really want to hurt the 1% ers then stop buying all the junk that is advertised for "Black Friday" and "Cyber Monday" kick the Starbucks habit,turn the cell phone "aps" off,they are just advertising drums for the suckers,buy as much used items from Salvation Army,flea markets,garage sales or such.Buy NO NEW items unless there is no other way around it. Look at all the money you guys are spending on stuff that helps the 1% just to get your word out.Tents,sleeping bags,new coats,shoes ect. How many of you are buying old used stuff that still has plenty of life left in it verses new fancy stuff that puts money in the bankers wallets?
for the future: https://www.facebook.com/events/190084344410536/
I saw how no one is endorsing any candidates (makes perfect sense), but The Occupy Movement really needs it's own candidates for all elections asap. Occasionally affecting the financial scene helps a little, but the power is also in the politics whether anybody likes or pays attention to it or not. Once you have Gingrich saying they should look for jobs after they bathe (with a 6 figure Tiffany & Co account and being paid millions of dollars by Freddie Mac) those who are really listening understand what's really going on. Protests and power can be two different things. Many of us who cannot protest in public streets support it, but we need a way to make a legitimate difference. Protest them on paper!
Occupy NO to unconstitutional health care bill........you can't force people to carry ID card with a tracking chip; pay taxes if they don't purchase health insurance
The 1% doesn't give a crap about the ports. Only the 99% who work the ports will be adversely affected. This is a publicity stunt and a harmful one at that. We have too much work to do to waste time on silly actions intended only to make good you tube videos!
I doubt you'll disrupt the "economic apparatus" of the "1%" but am pretty sure you'll disrupt the incomes of the "99%" you claim to be helping.
I know the unions support OWS, but are they now running the show?
12/12 would be a good day for national protests, to add support.
Wouldn't a nationwide week-long strike by all low-wage earners (& others who want to join for the cause) shake things up a little? That's 1 in 5 or approx. 35 million Americans who earn at poverty level with little or no benefits.
NYT Article title, "Yes we need jobs but what kind?" http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/06/opinion/yes-we-need-jobs-but-what-kind.html?_r=1
Has anyone done research on what this would do?
My question still went unanswered.... How does stopping a School bus full of Kids for hours help? How does stopping people to getting to their jobs and their family help?
Stopping a school bus full of kids doesn't help. However, what you need to ask yourself is - what has happened that people across this country are will to put their personal well being at risk, while inconveniencing others? These protests are like nothing this country has seen since the civil rights movement. The protests are not going to stop until people across this country convince their political leaders that they have had enough of their political corruption. Millions across this country are fed up. The politicians are not listening. Understand which side you are on. I am on the side of the Occupy Movement. Long live OWS! Long live the Occupy Movement!!!
If anyone who listened to a speaker from Newark NJ on Nov.15 the following night OWS in NY got raided would probably agree that this would be a great opportunity to SHUT DOWN the 3rd ranked shipping port in the US, NEWARK NEW JERSEY!!! We MUST make them take us seriously and with non-violent tactics like this one we could WIN!!
I watched a live video on thursday when ya'll occupied Wall Street. I was disgusted and was glad I did not live there. I watched a Bus full of kids sit there for over an hour, because ya'll wanted to protest. If my kid was on that Bus, I would have gone postal on you. I believe in protesting, but to block others from living there lives, I do not believe. Like the subways.... WAKE UP - people use those subways as their main line. Think about the parents that have to pick up their kids. Kids waiting for their parents because some asshole thinks that this will help. AGAIN i am thankful and you should be too, that I do not live in NY. It is your state as mcu has it is everyones that live there as well. RESPECT THE PEOPLE That do not believe in your protest. Please explain how stopping other people from making a living help? You are making the Rich Richer and the Poor Poorer.
You have to break a few eggs to make an omelette.
Here is the actual document http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/msnbc/sections/news/CLGF-msnbc.pdf This is an important message, and I hope the webmasters publish it on the main page.
Here is an important piece from Chris Hayes' program on MSNBC
http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2011/11/20-0
GLOBAL STRIKE! The scumbag bankers are international let the strike be international.
yarichin, look at http://www.lalavatrice.it/world/occupy-wall-street-festeggia-con-un-video-notturno-in-citta here in Italy bankers http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-tFVx1A-Ok
In the 70's (Carter) containerization started with Sea-Land and it's container-design. Ever since then jobs became a global commodity and since it was all in containers, no-one could see what was happening. Goods just appear in stores but no extra jobs!
Watch the documentary: The box that changed britain (BBC) and you get a nice summation of what happened to the west/world and where it's going! (it's available thru torrent)
Hope this will help. I was taught that there are always 3 c's to a problem.
As i was told by a judge a week ago, honestly, I'm 61 and a menace to society. Sorry I just had to get this off my chest. :)
Hope this helps and I will give it my best and keep it short.
The COMPLAINT. We no longer have a government of, for and by the people. We never did.
The CAUSE = The pawn, Philander Chase Knox, you can do your studies. The amendment was never ratified and the federal reserve is illegal. Besides all the corruption, the internet is not big enough to list them all. Think of it as a castle in Europe and you are the peasant, look at that structure of politics and you will see that nothing has changed :) The castle is Washington D.C. and the States are the peasants.
a. we are the 99 % and planted the seeds on the land, our land but they say it has always belonged to them :) you know who " them " are. In the
castle. We fought for it in 1776. It was because we wanted our own CURRENCY!!!! England was not going to allow that! Time for a WAR.
b. The 1 %, do your studies, bring in philander knox and voila, the Federal
Reserve now has your currency, Federal Reserve =Rothchilds =England so the colonies are back to whom they belong and we are paying for it. c. Well its fall and harvest time and wow, look at what we reaped from the seeds that we have planted. Must have been all HYBRID SEEDS. d. Planting time is just around the corner and I suggest we plant HEIRLOOM
SEEDS from now on and remove all the HYBRID SEEDS from the selection. If there is a hybrid in the bunch, get rid of it. e. It is our duty as good peasant of the land to inspect all the seeds so only
heirloom seeds are planted from this day on in any part of the land.
f. When we plant the good seeds in 2012 the CORRECTION WILL BE THE BEGINNING OF THE NEW REVOLUTION.
think about this, Ben print all the money you want it will bankrupt the CORPORATE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA its already bankrupt now we can all live in our beloved REPUBLIC OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA no taxes no license and we have our constitution back. and all others can keep there fiat money as we return to gold :)
Surgeon Generals Warning from the citizens: All and any laws pass will apply to all no exceptions to the rule. period And no benefits. If not then don't be a public servant.
a. WE the 99 are the keepers of the land b. We plant the seeds that we sow and reap the harvest c. It is fall now and we have harvested what we planted - not good eh? d. Its been a long time since philander knox and it seems we keep planting HYBRIDS AND NOT HEIRLOOM SEEDS
I''m don't know anything about the Longshoreman's issues with EGT, and since you are asking the protesters to ensure that the longshoremen are not targeted if they honor you picket lines I have a question. Has anyone from OWS talked to the Longshoremen or their Union? I know Union members won't usually cross other Union Pickets but OWS is not a union..
One more question..... for actions like this and the march on the Stock Exchange why do you put this out their publicly? Doesn't that just give the authorities a heads up and make it difficult to actually achieve what you want to do? Wouldn't it better to network with all the OWS cities and your local members instead of doing it like this? Then on the day of the action you are there and the authorities are the ones on the outside...,.
You should call the helpline +1 (516) 704 4777
Thanks but that doesn't answer my questions. In fact you didn't even tell me what this "helpline" is for?
portland ports have mass security good luck and have fun fighting police again.
Yeah you all didn't like it when Police shut down your camps did you? Think about what you are doing you are going to make people very angry. If that is your point then you've made it.
This is going to be interesting. What is happening on the East coast on 12/12?
'Occupy Oakland' also in Italy. Look at http://www.lalavatrice.it/world/indignati-a-oakland-tra-scontri-e-jam-session
http://getoffwallstreet.com/category/topless-protests/
Occupy Supreme Court... Occupy Congress.... Occupy Chicago Mercantile Exchange... Occupy All Federal Reserve banks... Occupy all these cksking mothrfkers...
Shut them down boyz ! Let your voices be heard . Don't use violence use video and pictures of the police being violent . Post it on your website for people to see . They will become angry ! Then we can really exercise our first amendment right ! We are the 99%
Why is there a sudden upsurge of right-wing comments and trolling in just the last couple days? Did you all have a "general assembly" about it and just decided to all start posting at the exact same time? Be honest.
WE are Humans. we help, we share, we progress, we develop, we produce, we use, we control, we live..No money, no greed, no crime, no enslavement..We cannot be slaves to anyone, we are all one, humankind..Individual is not less same then any other..Individual cannot control the collective, collective mutually controls collective.
The police response to the protesters is reprehensible. Pepper spraying people sitting peacefully in protest? The OWS protesters need to file a lawsuit against the college, police, and the Mayor! We need to take legal action against the 1% and their minions in addition to the protesting. I'm all for shutting down the West Coast Ports, despite the fact I'm on the other side of the country, I would like to help. Let me and other like minded sympathizers know what we can do to further this cause.
This is a pain - I tried 5 times! OK once again: Upon first reading your demand to shut down all west coast ports - I was opposed because I thought it would only deprive the workers like the truck drivers, crane operators, etc of their wages. BUT after reading your complete report as to who really runs these ports, I was totally with you. However I feel we must quickly establish a large fund to assist the workers - but how to get the money? The best would be to get it out of Goldman Sachs and the mysterious EGT! But How?? Any ideas??
A song for OWS... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FM3KR9dEOk
typos in previous comment, stand by the content. Why has Iceland disappeared from the media?They have succeeded in saying no to the IMF and are forming a new government by of and for their people.If this is to work we must do the same.It is too late for us the countdown is on, you are tools of the oppressor giving an excuse for martial law.In 20 years you will be in the administration and money houses the same way that Bill Ayers and Jerry Rubin became "the establishment".Everyone sells out for a whiff of power, that is what your "leaders" crave and they will kill you to get it.Then meet the new boss same as the old boss- be FOR something or die in vain.tick tick tick BOOM
I plan on being their. Lets make history
Maybe not openly promoting a specific date of protest would be more effective. There needs to be some form of underground communication beteen those organinzing, and those who wish to participate. It seems the authorities and business owners have an advantage in combating any meaningful resistance through mass propagandizing a "revolution".
Thanks
This will be interesting! What are we doing on the East Coast on 12/12?
Does the ILWU support this shutdown? If so, I'm all for it.
Excellent.
why does the government want us to stop if they dont do shit to stop us by answering to our cause. Im not talking about answering it with polices arresting us, answering it with what we want and why the protest started. Fuck the government.
A Great Suggestion! http://www.counterpunch.org/2011/11/17/occupy-aipac/
What companies can do is to become B Corporation. Benefit corps. This make the company equally responsible to employees and community as well as stockholder. The over emphasis on stockholder return is the real root of problem with capitalism now. See this article at NYTimes about what happen with Ben & Jerry ice cream when they were forced to sell out to highest bidder.
http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/04/11/a-scorecard-for-companies-with-a-conscience/?ref=opinion%22%20http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/04/11/a-scorecard-for-companies-with-a-conscience/?ref=opinion
I’m fairly neutral on this whole thing so far. When boiled down, the crux of the movement seems to be the inequality of wealth. The “1%” v. the “99%”. I know there are other grievances, but to me, this is what I come away with.
I’m not here to disparage, but I really want to know the philosophy
Suppose, if by magic, we woke up tomorrow, and all the wealth of the country had been confiscated, divided equally and redistributed. Everyone is perfectly equal.
At the end of just one year, some will be flat broke and others will have increased their wealth. At the end of another year, the disparity will be greater, and at the end of ten years, you will once again have a “1%” and a “99%”.
My question to you all, is “How will you keep everyone equal”?
Your premise suggests that redistribution of wealth is the goal, when in fact, it's the policies, laws, and unleveled playing field that has caused the discrepancy, and what needs fixing. If there is a fair playing field, the wealth will not be concentrated at the top 1% of earners.
A fair system, and a random world would keep everyone equal. The disparity comes form a rigged game, not natural progression. This can be mathematically demonstrated if you've the time and intellect. Un-rig the game. You will still have inequality, but it will be dynamic in both directions , not top-heavy-stagnant like at present. Fair rules make equality, and achievement possible.
The issue is not inequality in and of itself. Inequality is justified by meritocracy. The issue is structural inequality of opportunity and the break down of meritocracy by the institutionalization of criminality and exploitation. If the wealth of some of the 1% was not blatantly expropriated and then witheld from the rest of society, then perhaps there would not be such an uproar demanding structural reform.
The issue is not how do we keep everyone equal. The issue is how do we make the system work for the benefit of the whole, and not as the personal piggybank of an entrenched plutocracy.
Finding solutions is part of the process that has been initiated by this movement. This first step has been starting the dialogue and generating a new awareness of mutual grievances, the building of mutual respect, and the realization that the many can in fact impact outcomes through collective action.
Thank God for this movement. I believe OWS is still just beginning to get it's bearings, and with actions taken in solidarity such as the shutting down of the ports, strength in numbers will prove beyond a shadow of a doubt what we are capable of. The arrests only strengthen the movement, and communicate to the world how effective we really are. They can only hide behind the cops for so long. As OWS comes together, and proves not only to the world, but each other how powerful the collective truly is, everybody will realize that large, swift actions will be able to dismantle the wealth of the 1%, via massive boycotts where it counts, and political votes. That is assuming that we collectively trust in the democratic system, otherwise we will eventually tear it down as well and start anew.
If we started by voting out anyone who has signed a pledge to a lobbyist, that would be a huge step in the right direction.
Love & Solidarity. stay strong.
Thank you OWS for bringing these issues to light. The critics and detractors just want to talk about 'the protesters' and yet the protesters want to just talk about the issues. It's been said that great men talk about ideas; mediocre men talk about things; small men talk about people. So ignore the defenders of the status quo as they resort to name calling. You have important things to say. We have to make it clear that first and foremost we want legislation to reflect the desire by the people to remove corporate money and lobbying from government. Secondly we should all try to gain a solid perspective of what problems truly underlay the corruption in our society if we want to make real changes. I challenge you to find a more succinct and educated understanding of the problems we face than is noted in this press release from the zeitgeist movement. It's a must read http://www.thezeitgeistmovement.com/press_releases/tzm-response-to-occupy-wall-street
For those on this site standing up for the current established society. Please do us one more favor if you would--Bring more of your friends here if you could. Those Fox loving, war mongering, fascist believing, backwoods thinking, gun totin' folks like yourselves!!!. You are helping this cause more than you could even know!! When Bloomberg kicked the folks peacefully using their right to assemble and he destroyed their rights--he and other city leaders across the country who did the same rekickstarted this movement into a whole nother phase! The more people who have been planted here by Fox or right winged minded groups we can get, is only allowing us to get stronger! And is showing that mindset to dominate and control over time (as we are seeing now) only destroys itself! Thank you extremely for helping us change the world and the evil that runs it--it is truly you folks who are making the biggest difference!! Keep up the great work!!!!
OWS is now openly trying to destroy America's economy. Thank God OWS is a pipsqueak movement that doesn't have anywhere near the foot soldiers required to accomplish this.
Hard to destroy the U.S "economy". It's already dead 'n' just wriggling. Has been for some time. Stagnant physical production growth while financial agreggates soar? You don't have an economy. You have a disaster. Be realistic, guys.
The U.S. economy is twice as large as the next largest economy. It is growing, albeit slowly. Dead? I don't think so.
Read Harry Dent..? OR i could explain it to you in 3,000 words... Printing money creates imaginary growth. Know what stagflation is? If ur in the U.S, it's the next cycle. Google -demographic shift economics-. A large economy made enitirely of debt is only an asset while it's solvent. This is what i've found in my ten years or so of looking a this stuff. I know it's not long, so please, help me out if you can with some stats and figures.
Another cluless bot turns the "J" word into a dirty word.
Truth is our fulcrum, our voice is our weapon, and our lever is the "J" word.
awesome!
If you're going to do this let's make it hit as hard as possible. I want to help with 12/12 from the midwest. Let's arm people across the country and around the world with email addresses/ phone numbers/ something to do to support on 12/12. Can I call/email Bunge LTD... Sure! How about ....Can I email corporations that receive product from those ports a late delivery notice on their chinese made products... sure i can.... just an idea... but if i knew that 10s or 100s of thousands of others were doing the same thing from their phones... homes... offices that day.... wow.. Let's put some context to the content folks... context that all americans can get behind.... something that may increase the validation for the action and decrease the retaliation against the striking workers. And let's put some specifics to actions others can do in support.... Put us to work!
This is another wonderful idea. The fact that the ideas come fluently from your minds and are immediateli realized is a very positive thing. The ideas will make us the winners of a fight which will remain sculptured in the books of history forever. So the more you have new ideas the better. Make up the new world or we die.
Occupy Wall Street has lost its occupation. Is that it? Right in the beginning of this "movement", people have already commented that it will end when the winter comes, that the more extreme the winter, the faster it will end. In the end, it is not the winter that ends it all. It is just a little show of force by the authority.
You know what's the difference between you American protesters and those in Tunisia, Egypt, Libya and now Syria? They are as brave as you are coward. Stop covering-up your cowardice with "passive resistance, non-violence". This is characteristic of Americans today. You people does not have the will to commit yourselves to anything, besides play and having fun. You shouldn't have started it at all. You wasted so many people's time and energy, you dim out the light in their lives and worst of all, you take away their hope for a better future.
Ghandi was very brave and not a coward. Watch what you say.
I wish the movement wouldn't announce these actions so far in advance. It only gives the police and city officials more time to plan ways to stop them.
Why not its peaceful what do we have to fear.
That's pretty naive. Have the police cared one iota about peaceful assembly up until this point? What makes you think anything will change?
I like this idea, but can you actually implement it? If you can't, and it fails, the 1% will just take it that you can't back up your demands with action.
About 4000 comments till now from UC Davis Protestors Pepper Sprayed
http://www.youtube.com/all_comments?v=6AdDLhPwpp4
Fabulous
America allowed the formation of labor unions to undermine communism. This strike is in support of one huge national labor union, the ILWU, which covers longshoremen (and women) who load and unload the shipping containers in our ports, and in foreign ports on American ships. A foreign grain exporter has taken advantage of WA state tax breaks to hire out of state workers. This is a state, regional and national American fair labor laws issue. Get informed.
I have heard rumor that Anonymous plans to hack the servers for the tracking computers used in big rig trucks now. If that happened then it would immediately disrupt the economy of the entire country. I have found no proof of this claim online though, anyone else heard it?
OCCUPY EVERYONE'S INBOX! http://occupywallst.org/forum/spread-awareness-of-ows-as-easily-as-possible/
I am Ashamed for these days democracy!
http://ow.ly/7zgb8
Foolish......
So im fairly new to this topic. dont keep up with news. professor mentioned it in class piqued my interest and i have been trying to catch up and figure out what the whole situation is about...can any1 fill me in? whats the whole purpose behind this? what exactly r u protesting? :/
I am reposting this from a previous comment. "It's the longshore workers who are trying to get their contracts honored, and asking for support. General Strikes by national unions have been criminalized (because they work, because they force the 1% to negotiate as equals), so outside groups have to organize them." Hope that helps, sorry that no one has gotten back to you in three days.
hey don't worry about it, this is a movement you should be able to see with your own eyes on your phone or computer and you get the opportunity to help, hinder or be in a fog, up to you...
Your prof must b at wits end. Is yer school Coconut College?
Occupiers should find these videos interesting, especially the second one: http://www.debtdeflation.com/blogs/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston_Tea_Party
fox news reporting: "but now the colonists have no tea! they've ruined it for all the other colonists!"
lol
Sounds overly ambitous to me. You really have that good a relationship with the ILWU that every coastwise local would be willing to wild cat?
A move like this will definetly make the 1% take notice! Even in countries outside of the US, the greedy will be affected. (Just look at the wealth distribution in CHina. Almost all of it is coastal.)
http://media.oregonlive.com/oregonian/photo/2011/11/occupy-portland-n17-496cd5b90fe2b00f.jpg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vHI9BTpGkp8 "Democracy Is Coming to the USA" by Leonard Cohen
Ominous...
http://occupy.icvportal.com/
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I will run this idea through a program I have written called:
"Good Idea/Bad Idea".
Oops,...it crashed my computer, just before it said,...are freaking kidding me? This is a horribly bad idea! Major jail time for all involved, including conspirators.
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I'm waiting for an HDMI cable from China, ordered on eBay, paid with PayPal with counterfeit money created from thin air by the Federal Reserve Bank cartel. Don't block my order. I need that to watch RonPaul videos on my big screen.
Attacking hardworking Americans does nothing positive for this movement. It's childish and it marginalizes OWS. Please do not engage in this type of activity. Many of the people who would be on our side will be offended by this type of behavior.
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I agree with the points that everyone is making but, I think that if you guys really want to accomplish something it is time to have ONE person or small group in charge of this, and have a list of goals. You have a point but you will never get what you want if you just protest that you do not like the current government. You must tell them EXACTLY what you want with the government. Holding signs that say "I will never pay off my college loan" doesn't tell them what you want. And sitting in a park protesting is not going to pay off your loans any faster.
Having one "leader" would be a terrible idea. The movement has already caused Bank of America to repeal the $5 per month debit card fee for all of its customers. It has caused millions of dollars to be transferred from Corporate banks to credit unions. This is according to Bloomberg.com by the way. Look at the big picture. It is clear what OWS# wants. No leader necessary.
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Got a new slogan for OWS
OWS - Working Hard to Punish the Working Man Trying to Feed His Family
This so-called movement is half-way down the historical dust bin. A ragamuffin collection of neer-do-wells with no leadership and no coherent plan, OWS is a rabble that amounts to no more than a collective nuisance turned pariah. Two hundred pounds of bowell ecacuations at Santa Cruz sums up the OWS message: "WE ARE THE TOXIC ONES" http://www.mercurynews.com/breaking-news/ci_19373284
Vietnam Protest we shut schools across america to fight about the war - We shut down Highways- Roads -This is like a bunch of Bitches screaming and chanting for what - we had 1 purpose and got the pres to bring home soldiers - You guys cant close down some shit Stock Exchange lol -Wake up Kiddies lol --Send food send generators lol what is that crap -You guys need to learn how to Protest Right Youtube Vietnam protest kids
can't wait for some longshoremen to beat your ass because he doesn't believe in your cause.
If you came by my work and told me to join you, i'd laugh in your face and pepper spray you.
Basically you're trying to get people who work to not work and march with your stupid cause. that's it. There is no other explanation.
Wow people who don't work telling people who do work what to do..lol...are they envious that they have jobs?? I think so.
Should there be any retaliation against any workers as a result of their honoring pickets or supporting our port actions, additional solidarity actions should be prepared?? What solidarity actions? are you guys going to get violent? like you do every protest? Oh we're not violent except when we are.
I am tired of hearing OWS calling them self the 99% or they should go back to their 6th grade math teacher learn some math. My family, friends, and their families are not supporter of the OWS, so leave us out of your movement and this make you 89.99%. One last thing stop calling people those who does not agree with you a "troy", and criticize their writing skill.
Math huh? So 10% of the USA are your family and friends?
Yes, that is including people that are working every day and carry on their life, so you think calling your self the 99% we all agree with the movement too. In case, you ask whom. This why this forum is counter productive, there are people only knows ho to pickup on the typo but not the true idea of an individual trying to express. Further more the proof OWS is going down the tube because of people still got no ideas of reality. Ask your self this question: if the bank is the mob and foreclose people's home, then did the homeowner take out the loan from the bank? The answer is yes, and what did the homeowner did with the money? Now you might say they did took out the loan but later they lost their job, exactly the homeowner lost their job and unable to pay the debt, but who cause them to lose their job? If you keep gong down this path you will see OWS is not the answer to our world. Our spending habits and loan ideas have cause the balloon pop. Sure, there is he winner that takes all but that is life. If you go to casino what do you expect. A big pay out? why they owe it to you, but you know what I go to casino I am a winner because I don't play the game, I don't invest in stock, I don't spent money on what I have not earn. We are the people who have the same money spending habits that allows the bank to take advantage, change our self before we ask the change of other .
Yeah this is a great idea. Keep coming up with Gems like these and you all will be in the slammer.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lnf2aRCYRSI&feature=fvwrel
Dennis Moore
Next encampment you set up I'm going to organize 200 people to come down and clear you out, block your way, get in your face, just like you do to others. Who runs this website?
dude you did great in that sponge bob movie.
Really? Shutting down ports, what is this going to solve? Why do you keep messing with the 99 percent you are supposed to be fighting for? Take your march to Washington D.C., This will only anger more workers. And do more harm than good. I'm waiting for you guys to piss of the wrong person.
Earthlings you're doomed. Marvin the Martian http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cwxc_zLH560
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The people should wear police uniforms and protest next time
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We Want GOD's Reserve, Not Federal Reserve.
“Communism teaches and seeks two objectives: unrelenting class warfare and the complete eradication of private ownership”
The existing pseudo-government which was not elected by the people and which is not accountable to the people must be replaced by a government recognised by the people, elected by representatives of the workers, soldiers and peasants and held accountable to their representatives.
Yay, lets hurt the California Economy even more!!!!!! Lets stop all the port jobs on December 12th. All the OWS protestors that aren't working should protest all the other hard working Americans that are working at the ports. Oh, and we can rack up some more debt for the cities by employing police for overtime because they will have to deal with the protestors. Oh wait, the CEO isn't really going to be hit that hard if the ports close for a couple of days because they will still be working, but the longshoremen will lose their wages and be hit harder. Get a fucking job or go start a fucking commune and quit complaing. Stop trying to destroy and instead try to create. Use some logic. Stupid Idiots
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Another tantrum orchestrated by the Canadians.
Joyce, do u tink its a bit paranoid to give canadians all the credit for orchestrating this global revolution? 126 countries +
hm. A headline appears on a Canadian owned website 'Occupy Oakland Calls for TOTAL WEST COAST PORT SHUTDOWN ON 12/12 . And Americans go plan to do it. If OWS has no 'leaders' who do you think put that headline up there?^^
More hyperbole. Yes, the whole world is engaged?! I could care less if it were one person or a galaxy of trillions. The reality is that OWS is based in a specific philosophy that is continually ignored.
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How stupid. This kind of thing only hurts your own people.
"Experts warn that U.S. seaports could be tempting targets for terrorists bent on killing large numbers of people, grabbing media attention, and disrupting the U.S. economy. "
"Given the importance of foreign trade to the U.S. economy, an attack that shut down a major American port for even a few days could devastate the regional economy served by that port."
http://www.cfr.org/port-security/targets-terrorism-ports/p10215#p2
And that is why I left Occupy and we closed our park. OWS is terrorism with a good marketing strategy.
I'm glad someone understood this.
Thanks. Took me about two months of sitting in the rain holding a sign, but I got it finally. If ows members who really WANT to do good for the country take their earplugs out and really listen to what OWS is saying and look at what its doing, I think they'd do what I did.
I don't know . Let's hope so.
Whoa, that's from the Council on Foreign Relations! People have to check that out, now!
I support OWS, but this sh!t is crazy. The shutting-down of West Coast Ports is violence, because it effects the entire United States. No reasoning went into this proposal whatsoever.
A Consensus-Based Democracy is obviously terrible, because it is opinion-based, and does not utilize the Scientific Method for social concern. This is not peaceful at all. We need to peacefully evolve the paradigm, not tear it down and have anarchy.
Plenty of reasoning went into this. OWS is not about corruption in politics, it is about tearing down the current economic system in the US. If it wasn't, why would they being trying to disrupt commerce and the economic stability of the west coast? Actions, like this one planned for the west coast, hurt the average person far more than any mythical "1%". This movement isn't about the needs of the majority, rather it is about the wants of a select few.
Another bot. The 1% destroyes the economy on multiple fronts over the last thirty years, and they want to preserve the "economic system" that has been turned into a weapon against the innocent.
Truth is our fulcrum, our weapon is our voice, and our lever is the "J" word.
If there had never been strikes that affect the entire US, you would not be one of the elite who can afford whatever you're communicating on now. You would be a serf. All strikes interfere with movement of goods/services. That's the point. Or, you can just let the 1% write all the rules.
"....shutting-down of West Coast Ports is violence....."
What kind of vomit is this spewing out of the person's mouth.
We are literally living in a world where Senator's Phil Gramm and Orin Hatch created a legal framework where capitalism has been weaponized to harm the 99% and this bot gets scared when the 99% fight back.
Some would rather lay down and die of starvation, restriction to resources, and more rather than fight for the family, friends, and loved ones.
The truth is our fulcrum, our voice is our weapon, and our lever is the "J" word.
you must be part of the pc police.
Wow! This is happening!
I Just Love the people on the left side of america.
You are in a delusion of misunderstanding.
maybe , but working thirty five years in labor nothing gets attention like the old pocket. HAVE A GOOD DAY.
All im saying is that there is just as many rights as lefts. If you would go to an occupation you would see veterans, active military, even public officials...
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I really don't agree with this at all. I am unsure what exactly they hope to accomplish with this other than perhaps seriously pissing off a lot of teamsters. I'm pretty sure these truck drivers and such get paid depending on their deliveries and this only will hurt those people, it will do nothing to the people at the top other than create some paperwork mess. Instead of this nonsense, lobbying groups and members of government should be targeted, where the corruption is happening and where it is legislated and written and passed. None of this movement will mean anything if the policies in place don't change and if the focus is lost in the vague naive notions of bringing down the "evil corporation". Businesses will run and NEED to run, this does nothing to the overall system.
It's depressing because so many people agree with the fundamental movement and inequality in America, but this kind of college kid idealism where we will all bring down the man with the power of love and witty quotes we C&P'd off of Wiki from intelligent people past is embarrassing.
I don't see anyone else fighting this battle of economic inequality. Unless you would like to start your own movement...
Leaderless movement? Obviously you are following the orders of someone writing them on here, if they were to tell you to jump off a bridge would you? Obviously someone telling you to shut down ports doesn't have a brain. Jobless telling people who have jobs what to do?? Hmmm....sounds fascist.
Since when do unemployed people care about what the unions do? Gimme a break..You're just trying to rally someone on your side, because no one else is.
You idiots are letting people from other countries turn you against fellow Americans.
You guys are doing nothing but making yourselves look like raging assholes in front of the whole universe! Do it legit, do it fair, not like a bunch of fucking animals!
Occupy movement-Why are you living in parks and making life for ordinary people miserable by blocking traffic and looking like idiots in the media instead of protesting the privately owned Federal Reserve that has been sealing our nation for the .1% since 1913? Why aren't you protesting the people governments from Congress to the state house who millions to campaign for a job that pays thousands? Could it be that you are going where you are told by ACORN and SEIU(who are owned by the same powers who own the congress and president)?Wake the ef up and return the nation to its constitution - never mind it is over there is no more nation ,just demographic groups to be controlled or eliminated.
ACORN???????? Watching a little too much FOX propaganda lately?
Without demands people in power will only respond to you all trying to shut this down with FORCE. Make the people in power an offer they cant refuse then take these ports hostage. If you dont, expect a beating.
“Capitalism and communism stand at opposite poles. Their essential difference is this: The communist, seeing the rich man and his fine home, says: 'No man should have so much.' The capitalist, seeing the same thing, says: 'All men should have so much.'”
http://getoffwallstreet.com/category/topless-protests/
Although, I worry that it could cause an economic crisis in the US. Our GDP will likely take a heavy hit, along with China. I fear the bad outweighs the good.
In a free country, anyone should be allowed to cross any picket line. Why do you wish to restrict the freedom of people who want to work?
Anyone can. They are called scabs.
You have never worked in a union shop , If you had you would know you never cross a picket line.
No I have not. Why don't you cross a picket line? I would.
if you cross you are enabling big business to continue financial suppression of the working people
It's a case of "do as I say, not as I do" from OWS. They have become that which they despise. Such a wasted opportunity.
A song for OWS... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FM3KR9dEOk
I would guess that this rises to the level of premeditated crime and industrial terrorism. It's one thing to plan a march and have it block commerce (what is called "collateral damage.")
It's another to plan in advance to illegally shut down an entire business at a cost of probably millions of dollars.
I'd be real careful if I were in Oakland and considering this action.
We have to push harder against these people to show them they dont control everything. At this point, they almost do. They control the laws, money, land. Our freedoms are being swindled and we must prove to them that as hard as they can push, we can push.
You sound like O' Reilly when you say industrial terrorism. you and everyone in this country needs to read the dictionary of what terrorism is. Shutting something down is not a violent act. It can be portrayed that way and it could be done that way but that is not what this movement is about. It is to directly interfere with these peoples bottom line: profit. Thats what will make them notice us.
I agree it's not terrorism but what about these workers? Was this though out at all? Does it not matter to those of you who will heed these words about these workers who may need to work everyday just to get by? Is that fair? Is it right to protest and take away their payday(s) because protesters are angry so these workers will be collateral damage? They may not be mutilated as with innocent people in war are but being in financial crisis is a great burden on anyone.
Your right, its not fair. However, what is? Is gas prices fair? working wages? laws? human rights? wars over education? Im not sure about you but to me its worth it to be inconvenienced and not work for a day or two in order to fight in one of the only chances we have to reclaim our country from these people.
If we dont do something now, they will only get more powerful. The way things are already that spells a fahrenheit 451 type situation in my opinion if not there already.
Every strike is controversial, but if there had never been a strike, trust me, you would not be able to afford whatever you're communicating on now.
? Yes it is. That's why I left OWS. It says its a peaceful movement, but everything it does, is not peaceful. Shutting down the ports is not peaceful. Use your own brain here, not that someone is telling you 'lets shut the port, but we're within our rights to do it and its peaceful.' No. Its not.
And you're not going to hurt the 1%. Yes, I know you want to be right, and this is big and amazing. But think for 5 seconds for yourself...who will the port shut down really hurt? The 1% like OWS is telling you? Really? In your honest, educated, opinion?
Nobody who claims to know the OWS movement can claim that this movement is violent. I've been there and non of what you say is truthful. It is all lies.
Our fulcrum is the truth, our weapon is our voice, and our lever is the "J" word.
You're the kid sticking your fingers in your ears and going 'nyah nyah I can't hear you.' Take them out, and listen to what people are saying in OWS. All of them, not just the ones who still believe that this is not violent.
This isnt protest with permission. We will only make a change if we are in their face without violently being in their face. Lookup civil disobedience. Im sorry to hear that we lost you brother. We hope for your swift return to our movement and if not we wish you the best. Thank you for have been a part.
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you don't control everything either.
Ya ur right. A mere 400 people in this country do though.
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Hopefully millions of dollars!
Yeah, millions that they cant pay their workers!
Wait, what? Who can't pay their workers? I'm sure the CEO's of these companies are more than capable of paying their workers for one day lost. Will they? Of course not.
Yeah and probably give them a raise or two
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Nice post, I couldnt agree more.
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Stupid and targetting the wrong people..
Agreed - once again OWS beating up the hard-working Joe in the name of the hard-working Joe.
Pay attention, Jimmy.
Without the AFL-CIO and the longshoremen, the folks in Oakland aren't closing down anything. When the Port of Oakland shuts down (and it will be shut down again), it'll be as a result of the -combined- effort of those who -WORK- that port, alongside their Occupy Oakland Bros and Sisters
And if the other West Coast ports close, you can bet your last devalued dollar that the unions and others who work those ports are in on that too.
In other words, this thing is MUCH bigger than the inconvenience you experienced during your trip to work the other day, Jimmy.
Get over yourself.. At least a little bit..
Turtle, you are awesome. People are resistant to inconvenience, and Inconvenient Truth(s) (thanks Gore).
I bet you it turns violent. That will NOT help OWS, the longshoremen, the 99%, or anyone else - except the 1%, who will use it as ammunition. OWS is making a LOT of bad choices. Calling people whiners for being angry at you disrupting their lives certainly wont garner any support. In fact, it only further highlights the level of arrogance and selfishness you have come to symbolize.Bunch of fools. You had a chance to do something good, and you fucking BLEW IT. and then you'll blame everyone else for that, gee what a surprise.
I see remorse in your writing, Jimmy. A desire for OWS to have done better.
I agree.
But this thing is truly in its beginning phase; its infancy, if you will.
And no, Jimmy, my 'arrogance' is directed at the falacy that you seem to cling to; that there can be major social change without some inconveniences.
You are now experiencing less than 1% of the inconvenience that the street-marketeers in Iraq experienced when our troops went in there. Can you imagine them saying, "I tried to sell falafels all day, but between the rockets' red glare, and the bombs bursting in air, it was difficult to get the meat to sit properly on the bread."
Sounds a bit ridiculous, doesn't it? I mean, the implicit expectations of it all.... That war would allow for such delicacy as where the meat sits on a piece of dough.
Take a read of Patrick Henry's infamous speech, "We must fight. " He was addressing, in great part, colonists who were typically far more comfortable avoiding a struggle with the Brits, who pointed to the inconvenience that such a struggle would result in, and who even tried very hard to manufacture rational explanations as to why the Brits had amassed ships, munitions, etc..
Really an interesting read, beyond the more familiar couple of lines it ends with, "Give me liberty or give me death." Nope, there's a WHOLE lot more in that 3-4 page speech than those two lines.
Yes, some persons will unfortunately be inconvenienced by what's happening, Jimmy. Unfortunately, historically, many of them had often chosen to ignore the more subtle 'inconvenience' of witnessing their dollar being devalued, their jobs shipped over-seas, their representation in Congress being literally bought out from under them, and their Bill of Rights being systematically shredded at a high rate of speed.
Yes, revolution of almost any sort can be inconvenient sometimes for those who would like to continue on with their standard day-to-day schedules, more or less ignoring, or failing to act on, the issues and the necessary responses; what ever those may be..
But if it's any relief to you, Jimmy, in real, everyday life, I'm actually quite humble. I just know that in regard to reality testing, standing up in the midst of a rocket barrage, and asking in a demanding tone, "Why won't the noises stop?!!" is neither bright, nor productive.
Sincerely, I'm sorry if your trip to work was hampered. I mean that. But I'm not sorry that the issues at hand are being brought to the forefront. And I hope they remain in the fore-front until they're adequately addressed by all the sell-outs who've perpetuated the issues at hand over the last hundred years or so.
Have a good night, Jimmy. I'm going to deep-fry some North Pacific ling cod I caught out in the Gulf of Alaska this last summer. Tempura beer-batter, with home-made tartar sauce, and extra corn starch with the whole wheat flour in the batter, with Beck's Dark for the (flat) beer added. I'll let you know how it turns out this time. Done it many times before, but usually with N. Pacific halibut.
I think I'm in love. But seriously. I hope you are seeking a wider audience. This is brilliant stuff. You should be copying some of these conversations (as I have) and turn them into a column. I think you've chastised me before for using rhetoric you thought was stilted, if I'm recalling correctly. Sometimes I'm so discouraged by what I read--the ignorance and narrow-mindedness, the delusions (of grandeur sometimes), but you make me sit up and take notice, make me believe that this process could actually lead us somewhere other than cyber-oblvion. You have an authentic voice, Turtle. I hope you're raising hell outside of this space.
I hope that any criticisms I raised in the past were done respectfully and were properly gentle. I'm not always kind or patient, and sometimes I've let loose with words that I failed to weigh carefully enough.
And thank you for the compliments.
My writing for deadlines, stemming back to October 28, 2011, in Liberty Square, is a bit behind. I haven't so much copied conversations from these discussions, but rather from the interviews I engaged in with individuals on the East Coast, in person..
There's a writers' block of sorts currently, coupled with a historic ability for procrastination, which has been a part of my make-up for much of my life.
But there's also something very personal about my limited time at Liberty Square, the persons who allowed me into their lives and views, those who helped me, etc.. Telling others about that, in proper context and feeling, requires that I regain enough of that moment, what ever that moment contained. And that can be difficult.
There's also questioning the magic I felt in those moments, and a selfishness I feel about letting others see that very sensitive piece. Like sharing a part of a talk a person has had with a family member before parting.
Yesterday a person at the local Occupy group here (which I'm not formally involved with) asked me about those moments. I began to reply, then had to hold back tears again, as my voice cracked, and I told them what it had felt like, as a person whose family of origin are all deceased, and who watched our dreams as a generation whither or be compromised in the early 70s,.
I told them, "I found my brothers and sisters there."
I found more than that, too. And not all of it sat well with me. But there was a whole lot of stuff there that lit the proverbial internal candle again, too.
Liberty Square, for me, was part socio-political carnival, part reformation of the misplaced self, and part reunion or home-coming. Beyond that, words cheat the reality.
Take care.
Turtle, it sounds as though you and I are of the same generation, and so what you say about lighting the proverbial candle resonates. As flawed as some of the representations of the "message" may be (products I'm sure of the same youthful idealism and inexperience as mine forty years again), so much rings true. The promise is there. I just hope everyone brings their best: their experiences and their stories, their passion and their reason, their knowledge, their spirits, their best selves, really and we unite. That we don't let ourselves be manipulated and divided again. I feel a sense of urgency--as though this is the time, and I fear losing the opportunity will mean . . .well, change that is beyond our control. Part of me wishes that leadership would emerge because time is of the essence. Another part knows that I can only fill that imagined vacuum with my own energy.
Before you talked about going to Liberty Square, I have recently begun to consider that step. I need to be a witness.
Thanks again for the sensitive way you've connected with me and others.
I went to Liberty Square to get my stories, but also because I strongly believe that D.C. and Wall St. are the Head-waters of this thing. They are where we need to be putting our efforts.
My own perceptions include that Liberty Square will be different for each person, and for each day that person is there.
The evening of the slush, rain and snow storm, October 29, 2011, was a vastly different night than the one before it, or the two after it.
The 29th was a matter of limited despair for some. The GA had been reduced to fewer than 20 persons, standing in a small group, in the rain and snow, still conducting the human microphone, despite not really needing to; perhaps more as a method of letting each other know they were still there in both body and spirit.
Some persons went tent-to-tent that night, hollering for their friends, often with no reply. Many tents were starting to buckle under the weight of slush and rain. It was cold and windy. Many persons weren't ready to deal adequately with the elements.
Volunteers in the food tent, the information tent, comfort tent, and others, trudged on through their duties, by what ever light they could manage, as their generators had already been seized by NYC officials acting in a passive-aggressive manner, utilizing city code, etc., just as the Feds (Dept. of Homeland Security, and the FBI) had reportedly instructed them to do when ever possible.
The dedication of those who continued in their duties was stunning, considering the reality surrounding them.
The night before was the proverbial home-coming, which I've already described.
The night after the snowfall, the Square had re-emerged vibrantly, with a wall-to-wall GA in progress, and high spirits among many there. Most of the cops seemed to be patient and kind that night. Some of them were obviously bored, but they were generally amiable.
Halloween was like a slice of Mardi Gras-gone-political. That afternoon, Jerry (of Ben and Jerry's Ice Cream) had scooped out ice cream to a seemingly endless line of takers, smiling and conversing much of the time. It seemed as though mainstream acceptance was attainable as I watched that process..
That night I willfully lost the focus I'd been trying to maintain, and resulted in numerous light-hearted bouts of banter with passers-by, but also allowed me to meet with several persons whose interviews I'd been hoping for. Some of those were very solid persons, who I wish I could still sit and talk with. One of those persons I felt as though I'd like to invite to be my neighbor. He's an Egyptian fellow who was well-educated, thoughtful, kind, direct, and one of those persons whose eyes you can look into while you're speaking together, and you know intuitively that he's about as solid as they come. He was remarkably humble, kind, generous, patient, and knowledgable.
Things appear to be changing somewhat, however slightly, now that there's a renewed national and local push to control this Movemwent with more direct intervention or force.
If you are willing to go, my guess is that you'll encounter all sorts of folks there. Some you'll agree with more than others. But you'll find what it is that connects for you, and hopefully leave the rest.
There's definitely a lot of wonderful people there, and a lot of hope and vision.
Good luck in your quest.
Oh, and I read below--yes, no meat in a falafel--meant to tell you that. I spent a year in Israel where I ate my first falafel in i1977. These are important, poignant stories. I will carry them with me. We need to see the human face of what is happening there. With the restrictions against journalists, we're kept at arms-length and so can't get to the stories. I feel fortunate to have retired last June and to have the ability to travel.
I like your use of the word quest, which reminds me of the period of my life when I studied the vision quest tradition and yearned for the experience, but never carried out the act. Maybe my time has come.
I went to my GA tonight--which has dwindled to ten people . . .but we're not ready to give up. Plans are developing for educational events based on the idea that consciousness raising is the first step here in the North Country. I'll see you around cyberspace, Turtle. Be well. Peace.
cool, I my first falafel was cooked using kerosene, a whole falafel for about $ .60 on dizengoff st nov '67 at that time it was an important story esp for me as I decided to move there rather than going to vietnam to help murder people (not directly attacking usa) but I would and did defend israel while i lived there the difference being to slay in battle defending ones ancestral homeland, 6 yrs later while nixon was still in office I returned to usa and spent 9 mos in club fed-minimun security federal camp in fl, driving a forklift, I saw the watergate burglars, release in '63 and had the pleasure watching our reps on tv taking down the crook. Until egypt libya I had little hope of seeing any kind of movement, i thought we are much too spoiled OCCUPY definitely the best thing yet, really can't loose-local state and fed gov can't afford the police, the court costs and then the civil right violations...
Lived on Usishkin by the Hayarkon--we lived there a year while my husband did research. Spent many afternoons on the corner of Ben Yahudah and Frishman having coffee. I think I must have gained 10 pounds in the first few months because of those falafels! You've shared an amazing history, icfmike. I respect your decision to flee rather than fight in Vietnam. What do you think of Israel's conduct at this point in history? I'm trying to follow your last point. Were you saying that OWS will prevail because it will cost city, state, and federal governments too much to deal with it financially? I hadn't thought of that. I'm not sure I agree. I'll have to think about it. I guess I think the most powerful aspect of the movement is its potential is to educate and change political discourse. Shalom
Shalom RC, re; Israel's conduct in 'june '67 ? A very necessary defensive military action against egypt (100,000 plus surrounded in the Sinai then allowed to return to Egypt -Mubarak & Egypt of course lied to their own people and made him a hero) Syrian jets downed in the Kinneret, Jordanian forces that were hooked up with Iraqi were also overcome quickly, the best thing that happened was that since I don't know when Jews were able to go to the old city... I remember clearly the first Independance Day after the 6 day war, Israeli jets flying in star of david formation. I worked on different kibbutzim, Eilat my best memories are about a yr every day exploring the old city, and listening to Ofra Haza sing Jerusalem of Gold (check out you tube) Just think how much it costs a city and/or state anywhere to put a large police force in action against ows, man/woman hrs, equipment, then cost of processing those arrested and surely the civil rights violations to be filed. Just look at U C Davis the other day. Really how long can they keep it up ? As far as I know across the country all are trying to make due with large budget cuts. I do agree that ows does have the potential to educate, change political discourse and hopefully we the people can retake our own country.. The Egyptians are dying we are just getting pepper sprayed...Shalom Rav
Take care, and follow your heart.
you are right about everything except there is NO meat in a falafel...
Ooops..
I have an admission to make. I've never eaten a falafel.
After walking past all of the food carts while staying in the NYC area, I never picked one up. Not out of any bias toward them. But more the fact that I just never did so..
I'll use a better, or more accurate metaphor next time.. And in the interim, perhaps I'll try a falafel; hopefullty authentic.. though they're a bit more rare in my region..
Thanks for the correction.
hey turtle, I really did agree with your last post. o k falafel is deep fried ground chickpeas, fava bean and spices, 3-5 nuggets some thin sliced cabbage, sesame seed paste, olive oil and spicy sauce. not really in my region CA either. what's really nice is being able to communicate to others without much censorship...your metaphors are great, I really do appreciate the insight you've elaborated...I enjoy the flow of your posts
Thanks Mike.
I make a variety of hummus that sounds not too dissimilar to a good portion of your falafel filling. Our (spicy) hummus is made with ground cumin, tahini butter (roasted sesame butter) olive oil, garbanzo bean broth, cumin, lots of garlic, either Japanese (small red) hot peppers or dried cayenne peppers (often from our garden), parsley, lime or lemon juice (or a combination of the two), chick peas/garbanzo beans, and sea salt, ground into a smoth paste.in a food processor.
I appreciate your kindness regarding my writing.
I'm trying to not be quite as reactionary as I sometimes can be, and I believe that the more I back up a bit, taking time to pause in my responses, the easier it is to write things in debate without being overly personal in a negative way. If it's to turn personal, then trying to have it be more in a positive light is hopefully the outcome, I guess. I haven't always excelled at that.
At this point, I think this Movement, the 'collective we,' needs to police ourselves re. how we interact with others, even our detractors, and make sure that we're putting our best foot forward.
Not to back away from the debates, etc., but to try and do so in the best way we can. I know that's been a struggle for me over the years, and especially during times of high energy or riled emotions..
The whole world is, indeed, watching. I hope we're able to overcome the negative press that detracts from this, as a result of bias media and incidents that fail to do us proud., And I hope that we can earn even greater support from the public as a whole..
Good corresponding with you. I'm sure we'll see each other 'here' in the future.
Take care down there. There's a distance to ride yet with this Thing.
turtle, Your reply is the most sensible I've read so far concerning the ows, (your falafel recipe sounds good too) Please continue to help ows lead the way, peacefully...
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Thanks for a well though-out answer. You I can respect. Most of the idiots here I cannot, and I use the language I use because subtlety is lost on weak minds. Maybe a few such as yourself can separate themselves from the violent anarchists, the socialists, the marxists, and the plain out "we're just here to bash some pigs" morons that seem to make up the bulk of the OWS mob, and instead stand up for the real 99% - the working-class American.
It's going to take all of us giving something to this, Jimmy.
I'm nothing special.
I was down there, in NYC and D.C., not too long ago.
I interviewed Republican Tea-Party members in conservative areas of New Jersey, and Democratic middle-aged folks on the lower end of middle class life, riding on the New Jersey transit bus. I interviewed nearly anyone who would give me the time of day, in those moments I was able to.
I wanted to put a human face on this thing. I was sympathetic to the Movement when I headed south from Alaska. I was also angered by some of the early NYC/NYPD brutality I'd seen on film.
You know what I found in the statements of most of the persons I talked with? They pretty much wanted the same things. They wanted their government to work for -them- instead of itself and the lobbyists/giant corporations. They wanted an end to the incessant stumping for re-election with all of its hollow promises. They wanted the folks who took the TARP money to be held accountable for the actions they'd taken, and to be prosecuted the same way that you and I would, had we engaged in similar degrees of fraud. (And there has been MASSIVE fraud on Wall St. and in the banks, Jimmy. Massive. Which the SEC has typically merely scolded, slapped on the wrist, and let go, free to sin again..)
Most of the persons I spoke with wanted their dreams to matter, their efforts to matter, for their labor to be rewarded, for their votes to matter, and on and on. Basic stuff this country once strived to stand for, even if we were never perfect at it, and even if we sometimes fell way short of it.
But to get to that point of dialogue, with nearly each and every one of the persons I spoke with, we had to get past the Talking Heads' BS, and the partisan divides.
When we got past that, we were all human beings, needing very similar things.
Yes, there's some young hot-heads involved in this thing. But they also bring energy and new vision, And at times, some of us old farts could use some of that. As well, sometimes us older farts can see when a path reminds us of failed efforts in years gone by, or can add some tempering when someone gets angry at the lack of immediate results; impatience, by any other name..
And it -can- be very angering to watch pasifists get pepper-sprayed or maced, or clubbed. Seriously.
As to the different political sects, or non-conventional groups attracted to this cause; I figure that when a cause is true enough, and the message resonates with enough persons, then it will attract a very wide cross-section of persons. This one certainly has. And somewhere, in all of them, is, theoretically, something valuable to offer. Some times getting to it can be tough, but it's there. Just like when you and I were younger, and full of piss and vinegar. we likely had something good to offer underneath it all, right?
Lastly, before I cook dinner here, my amazing second-grade teacher, a LONG time ago, taught us that in America, (in times of normal operation), my rights end where yours begin, and yours end where mine begin. With that in mind, we were taught that we were all free to live as we chose.
I have, for several decades now, regarded those definitions as 'socially-conscious anarchy.' Not Black Bloc Anarchy, or the anarchists who see it as ok to burn & plunder, but a matter of making decisions about life's direction based on conscience, rather than dogma.
Not all of us who believe in ultimate freedom and liberty are a threat to our neighbors, Jimmy. I promise. Though I do, indeed, on occasion, fly a Gadsden at the end of my driveway in rural Alaska. ;^>)
Take care, and like you, I hope for the best in this thing. But I have to tell you, the first night I walked through Liberty Square/Zuccotti Park, and saw the hopefulness, dreams, and camaraderie in the eyes of the persons I met there, old and young alike, I was brought to tears by the re-awakening my own hopefulness experienced. I had given up hope a long time ago, Jimmy. I had.
On that note, I do apologize if your commute, and desire to get home to your family were disrupted.Seriously. But if this effort continues, then it's a fair bet that we will -all- need to get used to some degree of discomfort.
And here in the Far North, where nearly everything arrives by barge or aircraft, with very few trucks making the trip all the way up the Alcan anymore, that could mean lots of different things for us here.. But I can weather the storm, so to speak. I hope you can too. Seriously.
Take care.
Your patience and humanity are inspiring. Maybe change will come, one conversation at a time.
I think that interactions and life's lessons are the primary ways by which change occurs. Though change can be very stubborn, too. Even then.
Thank you again for your compliments.
Take care.
This is why I like Alaskans.
The only point I could possibly argue is your faith that somewhere, in all of them, is, theoretically, something valuable to offer. I wish I could share that faith, but after what I have seen in my life, I cannot. ..of course that would depend on what you consider as valuable too.
Sadly, I believe some of these groups have little interest in the OWS movement, but instead see OWS as an opportunity to push their own agenda, while still others have no agenda other than an excuse for violence.
Nice talking to a clearly rational person with on open mind.
Take care.
I have had about enough of reading your right wing propaganda, words like moron, anarchists,socialists,marxists, weak minds,...the reason others are quick to attack you is evident to everyone but you, you wreak of subversive horseshit, this movement the 99% is about everything and nothing all at once, if you have to ask the question, then you probably wouldn't understand the answer, its about equality, it's about fairness, it's about our divine right to believe that those that we have elected to preserve, and protect us and our Country , have chose to sell off their power and influence to the highest bidders , making the greater good of the nations people secondary to their own greedy interests, this will not be tollerated......you are either with us or against us, but either way this country will return to it's founding core, of equal justice under the law,, they have raped this nation of it's every valuable resource, they pollute our air with total disregard, they poison our water with their greed for oil, they set fire to our streams in search of natural gas, and even after all of that, they still want to run a major oil pipeline through the largest drinking water aquafir in North america,have they lost their minds, when they hastened to build rails and roads and bridges in this country , it wasnt to make life better for you , it was to hasten commerce for them,RailRoad Tycoons...OIL Barons...the facts are in the names you fools, now that all resources of value have been gutted from our country , we no longer need rails or roads or bridges, they werent to make your travel nicer anyway, oh yeah ,and we no longer need affordable education, Jobs....Homes.....Health Care...Social Security...we need none of these right ??? after all the only resource this Country has left is it's people, and they certainly can't find a way to make a profit off of us, well not without a few changes anyway....................So wake up KIds, and be glad it was just pepper spray...it gets worse,,,,It was M-1 Garands that shot 4 un armed college students in Ohio in 1970...those jack booted elitist protecting thugs you have been encountering, are just getting warmed up.....and Jimmy44 just for the record don't show up at an OWS gathering spewing that shit, you are either for fairness and equality and believe in equal justice under the law as the Constitution provides, or you do not, and if it is the latter,beware son...we are at war...make no mistake...not all will welcome you in the fold,and yet some may let you in ,but never let you leave....when your Country works to convince you that holding people or companies of great importance accountable would do more harm then goood...and at the same time Union membership paralells middle income in a steady 44 year decline regardless the party in office,...I mean what do you need child a F*ing roadmap you have just went through the looking glass......should have asked for the blue pill huh Neo?...........................Anonymous
Wow, Anonymous--your indignation is righteous. I would stop short of the threats, though. Don't be pulled into to that vicious cycle of violence, the Dark Side, which has spawned all that which you so rightly condemn. Peace, Brother.
rcarmstrong > I would be interested in you pointing out where in my post any threat of violence exists, I mentioned my recollection of the Kent State shootings by the National Guard of 4 college kids, but I in no way encouraged or promoted any kind of violence,and if I did, I challenge you to post the words that you believe encapsulate that threat now........Lets have these discussions between honest actors here okay ?, and with the stakes so high for so many I think the common script kiddie chat corruption crap, should take a seat,and leave gross,wild assumptions of someones intent out, if anything I post is ambiguous,ask for a clarification, but I to my knowledge have not hired you as my translator,so unless or until I do........ Lets Keep it Sgt. Friday on this subject....."Just the facts Ma'am"
You are so right. I should have respectfully asked for questions instead of assuming I knew what you meant. I was obnoxious and preachy, for which a truly apologize. It must have been getting late. I had been following Jimmy44's comments, and Turtle's and your interactions with him. Jimmy does need a strong dose of reality and you both, in your inimitable ways provided that for him. What I should have said is this. Your comment is powerful and arresting--capable of stopping bullshitters dead in their tracks. I admire your skill, and that is what I wanted to say about the first part that had to do with what we are really up against. It was when you started addressing Jimmy44 here: "and Jimmy44 just for the record don't show up at an OWS gathering spewing that shit, you are either for fairness and equality and believe in equal justice under the law as the Constitution provides, or you do not, and if it is the latter,beware son...we are at war...make no mistake...not all will welcome you in the fold,and yet some may let you in ,but never let you leave...." and you're right, we might have had a more productive exchange if I'd asked a question about it. Still, it sounded so hostile. So here is the question now--what were you trying to get across to Jimmy there? I think he interpreted your comment the same way, so what about that? As I said, I understand your righteous indignation, the feeling that you need to shake people or slap them out of their cozy slumber. I absolutely agree with you that the times are dire, and that we must bring all of our personal resources to bear in facing this enemy. But I shy away from confrontational interactions because I worry that they don't move us forward. People stop listening. Am I explaining myself well enough? Am I still pissing you off? Really you're a pistol, and I loved most of your retort to my comment. It was good for me to hear and I laughed with chagrin. I want to build allies here, not alienate them, so with this lesson under my belt, I will make very sure I'm not assuming too much in the future--Sgt. Friday is my new mentor. Communication in this form is a tricky thing though, you have to admit.
I will be glad to clarify, and thank you for understanding that I am a bit intense, but the stakes are high,and the tricks are many, most people with liberal leaning sensibilities, usually find it impossible to imagine the tactics the elite establishment are willing to use against them,because by our mere nature of being capable of believing that we to some degree are all of our brothers keepers, just don't have those types of tactics at the front of the list of things we'll do, and so we believe they wouldn't either....(MISTAKE) Among those tactics are ..."plants" people who talk ,dress,act,and profess to be one of us, infiltrating our group, sometimes to be overtly criminal in hopes that the media will say it was one of us doing the dirty deeds, or the alternative to insight one of our group to do something that could hurt our movement more than help it, they spread propaganda amongst the groups disinformation etc.,and also they play both sides by taking any information they gather back with them to alert the other side of our intentions, So regardless the action, Failure will be waiting for us around the corner....funny how they knew what corner?.......... A mild example would be WI. Gov Walker, when the Dems started a recall on the Rep senators in their state the republicans selected 6 republicans and asked them to change parties, and create a primary challenge against the 6 dems that wanted to oust them, so we were actually fighting the same fight twice we had to get past the 6 phony Dems who were actually Union smashing republicans in the primary before we could actually go forward with the recall elections, that's the elites, money and resources allowing them 2 bites at the apple, when everybody else just gets the 1. Another example is Gov Walker's own recall , WI state law says that Walker can not start fund raising to defend his seat until the dems actually make the legal filing for the recall, as a matter of strategy, knowing Walker had the Koch brothers money to back him, they were going to wait until the last possible minute to file the paper, he used a plant to discover this,and had one of his own people, go and make a legal filing for his own recall instantly, so he was then allowed to open the Koch brothers money bag,and start running adds and disinformation campaigns all over the state, for Gods sake he even bought time on the Green Bay game that sunday $$$$$, and regular citizens of the state that are attempting to play fair, are now receiving Death Threats from the other side just for trying to collect signatures....these things I've mentioned are all common knowledge and can be affirmed as fact by very little research......
So to address the (maybe let you in ,but never let you leave) comment, Was to say that he (Jimmy44) may be smart enough to get away with a lie or 2 that would get him in to a group, but once they discovered he was up to no good, they certainly wouldn't want the movement to suffer due to their trusting nature,and would probably want to duck tape him up, sit him off to the side for a time out. more akin to being put in the penalty box in Hockey, or being forced to get out of the pool for horseplay by the Lifeguard.... What ? you went straight for the Hoffa in a 55 gallon drum result.....Nah ! In the grand scheme of things Jimmy is about as worrisome as a cloudy day,and truthfully my words to jimmy were more for others to see than jimmy himself,because make no mistake this is life and death for some,and when challenged on a position,and you don't have either the facts or the vocabulary to defend your position, some will get frustrated,and that frustration can lead to chaos or violence, so my true purpose was to give the frustrated some (fact ammo) to use to defend their cause or position, in hopes that they didn't head for the real type....Anonymous
Thanks, Anonymous. I hadn't read about any of the Wisconsin examples that you mentioned except for the hate mail, and I knew that Walker had found a way to begin advertising early. Can you share the sources for that information? I don't doubt that there are plants in the OWS movement. Now I understand what you were saying to Jimmy, and that I didn't need to go "straight for Hoffa in a 55 gallon drum result." Don't be offended when I say that you make me smile. I enjoy the connection with you, someone who sees things I don't see and speaks his (?) raw truth. I am a 63 year-old grandma who has, in my own way, raged against the machine for 40+ years, and so, believe, me, I fully understand the crisis we face. We're in a state of emergency of cataclysmic proportions, and my friends and neighbors are still preoccupied with all of those diversions that the corporatists rely on to keep social unrest at bay. In my little Northern New York town, though, there were 60 people who showed up at a solidarity rally at 4:00 on a Thursday--with only 4 days notice. We've got to be persistent and reach out to folks in a big way. Meet them face to face and be willing to engage in the most meaningful dialogue of our lives. As I said recently in a letter to the editor, we must make solving our nation's problems a full time occupation. It's going to, finally, take sacrifice.
RC > here are 2 quotes and the links to the information I was referring too, there are many more stories about this you can find,just remember, to research the news sources from time to time to make sure the owners don't have their own financial incentive to promote a slanted view.....
"In response to the recall drumbeat, Walker’s own team filed paperwork in early November for a theoretical recall effort against him, a move that allows the governor to accept unlimited campaign donations. According to Milwaukee radio station WISN, “Campaign finance rules set a cap at $10,000 on campaign donations, but a quirk in state law allows candidates in office to receive unlimited donations while recall organizers gather signatures against them. The person running against Walker would have to abide by campaign finance rules.”
http://tinyurl.com/7pnemzj
Police in Sun Prairie, Wisc. said Monday they were investigating reports of death threats made against two activists supporting the recall of Gov. Scott Walker (R).
Wisconsin residents Heather DuBois Bourenane and Tom Peer, who live in Sun Prairie and Madison, respectively, said they received early morning phone calls on Thursday of last week warning that they would be murdered. Both calls came from a Michigan number that did not have an active voicemail account, CNN-owned publication Channel 3000 noted. “They said, ‘If you don’t stop circulating recall petitions, we will kill you,’” Peer reportedly said, describing the call he received.
http://tinyurl.com/82e625r
I just hope the masses understand ,that these types of manipulations & tactics prove they the elitist class who in this case are republican GOV supported....they think this is a war,and are acting as such......That has never been trumped by a Drive-In's midnight showing of Beach Blanket Bingo.... This Thanksgiving, I am saying a prayer for those that are in the streets, those there by circumstance,and those there by choice, their presence, their march, gives us our voice...........................Anonymous
Thanks for taking the time to offer the sources, xAnonymousx. I will think about you, on the razor's edge, tomorrow. Taking your lead, I'll join in that prayer for the system's victims and those warriors who are putting themselves on the front lines to defend them.
I thought you would find the links informative, as they represent a slight right leaning view more than left, so if they were willing to tell it, they must have known that denial wasn't going to be an option, not to say that OWS is a left or right leaning movement, but this last major push by the right in the house and in state Gov's accross the US, to disenfranchise voters, take away a womans right to choose, break union,and public sector workers ability to collective bargaining,destroy the EPA to gut the Clean Air and Clean Water act, open up national parks for drilling,etc etc etc the list just goes on and on, I hate to say it,but just add those things alone and the attempts to privatize Social Security and Medicare,and I believe the elite in this world think the Republicans can bring this whole thing together for them,and are paying handsomely to secure that possibility , for instance The debate, shown on CNN and held at the DAR Constitution Hall, was sponsored by the conservative think tanks the American Enterprise Institute and the Heritage Foundation.
That fact led to a procession of George W. Bush era neocons in the audience who posed questions to the candidates. They included Paul Wolfowitz, who served as a top Defense Department official when Donald Rumsfeld was Defense Secretary and David Addington who was chief of staff to Vice President Dick Cheney, as well as many others all of which were personally involved in the efforts to legalize torture,and masterminded the lie for GW that was the Iraq war, nobody seemed to mention that GHWB owns the Carlisle Group one of the largest weapons manufacturers in the US,and Cheney through Haliburton & KBR contracted out the rebuilding, what a scam, not to mention Transocean a Haliburton subsidiary that brought you the BP oil disaster, this group of people shouldn't be allowed to live in DC let alone be the puppet masters behind the next group of republicans hoping to run it...just Google Haliburton or KBR and any negative term like theft or fraud, and you will be stunned at the results....
Hey rc,thanks for setting Jimmy straight, I could not even attempt it, love your comments.
I’m fairly neutral on this whole thing so far. When boiled down, the crux of the movement seems to be the inequality of wealth. The “1%” v. the “99%”. I know there are other grievances, but to me, this is what I come away with.
I’m not here to disparage, but I really want to know the philosophy
Suppose, if by magic, we woke up tomorrow, and all the wealth of the country had been confiscated, divided equally and redistributed. Everyone is perfectly equal.
At the end of just one year, some will be flat broke and others will have increased their wealth. At the end of another year, the disparity will be greater, and at the end of ten years, you will once again have a “1%” and a “99%”.
My question to you all, is “How will you keep them equal”?
I think your perception that this Thing is focused on redistribution of wealth, is off base, Trying.
Equal protection under the law, clean politics, corporate corruption and preferential treatment, a living wage for those who work for their living, and more, are closer to what I see represented in this Thing.
While there may be a limited number of persons with signs or t-shirts that read, "Eat the Rich," etc., there are far more thoughtful statements of issues available..
You can find some of these statements on/in these 'boards,' you can see some of them in the signage carried in the marches and in photographs, and there are still numerous other places to locate what it is that you're looking for.
Ask yourself what disparities or ills have affected this country (and the world) over the past 50 or 100 years, especially where power is concerned, and I suspect you'll be closer to the 'mark' in identifying what this Movement encapsulates as its core issues.
Good luck in your search.
really it's not the wealth, it's corruption, graft, bribery, on and on, it's fairness...
Tryingtofigureitout.. I understand your dilemma, but it's really not that hard to understand, this is a chicken and the egg thing here...OWS isn't looking to take all the rich peoples money and share it like a pie at the dinner table, we are saying that, they have used the wealth to create a political and financial system, that in and of itself is unfair,making what they have done they being (1%) is to use the money power and influence they had beit through trust funds or inheritance, or a few worthwhile pursuits I'm sure, and use that wealth to game the system, think about it for a second what does the 1% make other than tax free money for themselves and their investors ? Nothing How do you deal with a board of directors that are being pushed by the stockholders to have endless consecutive increases in quarterly profits, that's just not possible, everything ebbs and flows, it's Chaos theory undeniable ...but that's how they have it now,and they have done that by buying through bribery"lobbyists with checks" our Government, there are maybe 400 people included in the top 1% and there are 535 in Washington helping them to steal the rest they have manipulated the Supreme Court with the Citizens United ruling, they have assisted many of them in escaping justice, from out and out stealing, by using bailouts...I am going to post something here that will be very informative to most about the subjest it isn't the end all be all to the problems, but it captures emotionally what I believe the sentiment is in a round about fashion, but I will add just one question more of my own.....Why is it fair and just that a major Financial Corp. can break the law creating phony derivative objects, that they themselves claimed to not understand(lie) and they get Billions of our tax dollars to keep them a float, and a Family of 4 that have their mortgage half paid off, lose over 30% of their homes value which in some cases was their retirement, or possibly get foreclosed on and kicked out by one of the endless mortgage companies sister companies ........something is seriously wrong here friend, this proves it isn't just about the players anymore, it's now about the rules to the game and how in the last 40 years they have slanted them in only one direction ....middle class income has declined for 44 straight years, and Union membership has stayed in the free fall right beside it, there are charts to prove this,,,,and now more and more Rep Gov's are trying to crush more Unions to what rectify the past or to speed the hell bound train.........I know the answer...do you ?.......choooooo!....choooooooo Anonymous
This is very thoughtful ,and encapsulates the emotions of the movement without getting into particulars, because as the new structure is created God only knows what problems we'll find that need fixing.....
Dear Wall Street:
Wondering what all the fuss is about? Let me tell you: We gave you our blessing, and you laughed behind our backs for being gullible. We gave you our retirement savings and you gambled it away on products even you did not understand – and reaped billions doing so. We gave you plans for our children’s education, and you shredded each future sheepskin with your greed -- well, everyone's children but yours. We gave you tax breaks because we were told you would create jobs as a thank you for the privilege. Instead you gave yourself bonuses and built edifices to yourselves that would feed thousands of the hungry and educate many of our youth who deserve it. We gave your corporations break after break, and for what? So you could break the very backs that worked so hard to provide them. We gave you the largest amount of cash and savings the world has known, and you threw a party -- but forgot to invite us who paid for it. We gave you our trust, and you stacked the Supreme Court to allow you a freeway to buying our politicians. And now we are tired. We are tired of giving to you who have proven so ungrateful. We are tired of giving you breaks without a thank you. And most importantly, we are tired of your self-imposed self-entitlement. You have done nothing to deserve our trust, our money, or a break. And now we are going to work to take it all back. And you can blame yourself for it. And for the record, we do not hate money. We are not communists or socialists. We are Americans. We are Italians. We are Spaniards. We are Arabs. We are Germans. We are Democrats. We are Republicans. We are made of up many parts. Just like you. Remember, you created the vocabulary for this discussion, and if the issue at hand is about money for you, then it shall be about money for us............ Steve Lyons Boston, Massachusetts re-posted by...................Anonymous
Now this is where the problem is. You are no better than those you are fighting. I was with you until you got to the "you are with us or against us" and then the inferred violence and threats that if anyone doesn't agree with you, you will kill them, or make them disappear, or however you choose to phrase it doesn't matter - the message was clear enough. THIS is why you will fail. As soon as you start telling people to do what you say or else, you change from being a voice of freedom to being a voice of aggression and oppression. Few people will follow that. YOU are your own worst enemy.
exactly, OWS are following the rules of communism. If you don't do what they say or act as they do then you're obviously a Republican Tea Bagger or Troll. This is exactly why this movement will fail. I'm guessing the majority of union workers will not side with you. I know one who is completely against OWS, and truckers aren't going to give you the time of day.
LMAO ok genius - you're calling me a subversive now? Clearly you don't even know what the word means you fucking moron!!! Subversion refers to an attempt to transform the established social order, its structures of power, authority, and hierarchy, often by violent means.. and you are calling ME the subversive.. LOLOLOLOLOL dude you're an idiot. This is why so few people respect OWS now - because of idiots like you. Like I said, YOU are your own worst enemy, and what do you do in response to that - you go and prove it. OMG this is just too funny.
I didn't even bother reading beyond that point - I am sure it is nothing but ad hominem attacks, because that is all you are capable of. I bet you don't even know what ad hominem menas, you clueless fuck.
Go get a job or an education - you're clearly desperately in need of both.
Jimmy,Jimmy,Jimmy....you need to get out of the house more grasshopper, subversion>: Destroying someone's (or some group's) honesty or loyalty; undermining moral integrity....Imagine that ! a definition other than your own.Violence nor a Government are required to be guilty of subversion, these facts will be confirmed when checked on by others,and you will be outed for being the subversive Liar that you are. Are you the only fool in town that doesn't get that the inflammatory rhetoric,and language you use in the face of facts proves my point... It also leans toward proving another point as well, that you're nothing more than an idealist, probably of college age or slightly older ,with little to no REAL WORLD experience whatsoever, your like an engineer of a bridge blueprint you can't figure out why your exploded view of the bridge on your computer model goes together instantly and effortlessly, but the bridge in it's Real Tons of Steel on the ground condition is giving workers fits... Little Jimmyy's SUBVERSIVE LINE ALERT "that is why so few people respect OWS now" See little Jimmy is infering by this declaration, that it's fact, when it is not...OWS GROWS in support...daily See Folks it's lines like his that are infantile attempts to state things as fact that are clearly not so...ask yourself...to what end? if not to try and decrease support for the movement itself...lets look at the other things in his last post to me like :"FUCKING MORONS"..."IDIOT"...."Clueless Fuck" Just like the COPS that show up baiting us trying to get us off point and on to violence with them, then they have ammo for the news, they will spew endlessly and use to justify further future violence against us......Just a tad too smart for that one sparky! ,but thanks for playing.....and for the record since we're being snarky and all...I got your ad hominem...and I'll raise you the correct spelling of "MEANS".....Heres where I love to quote the A-team "I just love it when a HAM comes together " you're out gunned here huckleberry, I would quit while I was behind if I were you....but by all means spew on....it's right up your personality types alley,don't you just love to have an example of the monster to point at to show people who you demand should be attacked....well now days...so do we...talk on....talk on.. Anonymous
You just keep on telling yourself how great you are, and how anyone who doesn't agree with you is obviously a troll / republican / tea party / 1% / college kid with no real experience etc etc - but everyone has heard it already and it's getting REAL old.
Your failure to respect others' opinions, your failure to see the irony in demanding certain freedoms while denying those same freedoms to others because they don't share your opinion, your continued blind rage and pushing your agenda down the throats of people who you claim to represent.. all these things are what OWS have come to represent to much of the common Joes in the street, and your biggest mistake is your unwillingness to see where you have gone wrong.
Your once-noble agenda has devolved into a bunch of squabbling, tantrum-throwing selfish acts of insignificance. You and those in OWS like you have caused your own demise. All you will do in reply is throw more insults and denials, and continue to learn absolutely NOTHING.
In truth Jimmy, I really don't care whether you live ,die, or have mushrooms grow out your crack, and I really appreciate you showing up to this forum, you have given me a perfect example to point out to others, how to defend themselves when confronted by elitist idealogical subversives,I mean your ability to strike every chord in your sick little pathetic talking points tune, I mean your type only has the one song,and you predictably played every note, it truly was more than I could've hoped for.....So I guess what I'm trying to say without getting too mushy here is ......Thank you !
You've helped me ! You've helped the movement ! & and although your results ended up being a non linear equation (the opposite of intended) I believe your MOM & DAD as well as yourself can be proud of your efforts. Eternally Grateful .....................Anonymous
There you go - you've once again PROVED me right. All you can do is throw more tantrums while you mind remains closed. Pathetic little nothing.
,and (JIMMY44) in your own little not so crafty way you are attempting to divide...not understand as you claim....So can this battle be won without firing a shot......Maybe...if we are United,it is certainly my hope that it can be accomplished in that way, but here are just 2 more facts for you to check, that will give you a clear indicator as to what to expect....Never in the History of mankind has a civilization been able to excell without SLAVES.....the attempted disinfranchisement of voters being attempted in the Rep run states is attempting to create that class now modern day slaves (working class poor),and 2nd. very rarely if ever has a dictator or Tyrant relinquished power, just by asking............So you tell me where this goes from here.........I will follow Lincoln (prepare for the worst & hope for the best) OWS is a peacefull movement,and it is through this civil disobedience, that hopefully public opinion will be with us.....but beware my friends of the Jimmy44's out there...they are not what they appear to be, and in some ways they are more dangerous than the elitist 1% that believe they have a right to what they stole...after all ,they stole it..... So fight the good fight children, learn to hit the fast pitch,,,,but keep an eye out for in your ear........We'll be watching Anonymous
i bet you not... at least until the police show. and i suppose you have the right choices in your life.
see thats the thing everyone on these comments seems to know exactly what NOT to do. How dare you sit behind your computer and tell others what you think is misguided. your country is going down the tubes and you coldly sit there and tell OWS they are doing everything wrong. Get real. there is a war going on and this is our only line of offense against those trying to make you and me poor.
pot, meet kettle.
Exactly what I have been saying too. It is a real shame, the potential this movement had, and has lost.
I don't think we even can say it has been given a chance. The civil rights movement too 4 years to get decent legislation passed. This isn't a car, or a cell phone. This is completely different from the convenience and immediacy of your everyday life. this is a movement and it takes a long time to make a real change. People in power only give it up unless they have to.
I agree that it takes time but the direction it has started to go in, shutting down stuff and getting into clashes, and some of the proposals, like blocking access to buildings and disrupting the thanksgiving parade, are the harbinger of a short life for this movement in my eyes.
Id depends what buildings. Banks, NYSE, ect is a good idea. I will agree about the thxgiving parade though. A disruption is bad. A float or two I think would be great though.
Had ??? stuff that...... N17 was the biggest Occupy yet, but you have us losing b4 we even get warmed up...you need to go count your trust fund money junior, and start burring some in the back yard......your negativity is counterproductive,and much like a child screaming "are we there yet" from the backseat, and that is giving you the benefit of the doubt assuming you want OWS to succeed my bet is ,that, that is not the case .... OWS has drawn the attention and support of more powerful players than you're aware of....and this game is far from over...It's a new world with new tactics,and it will take some time to get the bugs out 2 legged and otherwise
. Anonymous
"Junior." lol thanks for the compliment.
N17 was a shit show EXCEPT for the union rally and bridge march that OWS participated in but did not organize. The OWS events of N17 were poorly executed and turned many people off. I'm talking about the show down at the stock exchange, which was unlawful obstruction that made people sympathize with those trying to get to their jobs, and the subway action, which was a fizzle and luckily so because if it hadn't been there would have been hell to pay. The positive event of the day and the one that drew the most people and was the most orderly was the union event.
I say this because I don't believe the actions taken by ows on N17 were constructive and I don't think they helped the cause. I believe in the cause but not in these actions. That is why I say lost potential. This movement had the chance to appeal to the masses and attain real unifying power, but actions like the N17 exchange blockade and subway occupation work against that.
me2>Prepare for another compliment......Look junior I was born in the County of Kings Brooklyn, where it has not been that uncommon to step over dead or dieing bodies without even looking down, So Disruption is exactly the only thing that will have them not just step over or around you, making it about as much of a hindrance as a plop of Dog sh*t... ending with someone coming by in an hour or so to scrape you up and dump you off. This is about them wanting us to believe that these inequities are the new normal,and we should just buck up and go on about our days as if nothing is happening and quietly slip in to our new place in society at the bottom of course....
Sorry I was brought up to believe in Play Rough ! Play Hard! but Play Fair !, they have chosen to leave out the fairness part.....oops ! that was actually the only thing that made playing hard and rough acceptable take out fairness it ceases to be a competitive thing and turns in to nothing more than an attack . Maybe they should have formed one of their committees back in the 60's to see what long term effects there would be from making kids stand up at the beginning of the school day, face the U.S.Flag, and recite the Pledge of Allegiance daily for years.........I'll tell you if you want to know.....
I am 50+ years a Patriot,not a second their Bitch,and the minute they get that twisted, is the same minute I will assist them in discovering the errors of their ways ...... Stand and Deliver,never give up!,never back down!,never go quietly! Anonymous
Most of what you say, I agree with, about fair play and "the new normal" and even about disruption. But I disagree that we are at the point where that is the only way, or even the best way, for this movement to gain strength right now. And I don't think it is inevitable that it should come to that - though it may.
Actually, I'm afraid violence WILL benefit those in OWS whose cloaked goal is to tear down the structure of our government/economy and replace it with a Communist/Socialist/Anarchist state...
Fear is a terrible thing, and it makes us categorize people and over-simplify very complex problems. Remember Joe McCarthy? Haven't we learned any of the lessons of history? To identify legitimate grievances based on fact does not equal spewing communist doctrine. To shed light on the flaws of capitalism does not mean you're a socialist. Be unafraid to question, criticize, think.
Rcarmstrong, I am certainly not afraid to question, criticize, think. I do in fact critique our current "system" and look forward to changes (some of them "radical"). In fact, OWS's own iconography and blog posts DO imply a communist doctrine is the end goal. I'm just questioning, criticizing, and thinking about the OWS agenda -- but as usual, anyone who does this is charged with being un-supportive. Isn't this a dialogue for a better world? :)
Ok, Meesa, so let's discuss what you think is the communists doctrine. You're in NYC and I'm in Northern New York, I'm not seeing what you're seeing. What's the evidence? I didn't intend for my comment to thwart dialogue. Ok, I'll admit to sounding preachy. Forgive me. Let's discuss our points of view. I welcome the conversation and will treat it respectfully, I promise.
I should add "socialist" and "anarchist" to the mix, sorry. The OWS blog itself, in September, says no one is going to want to overthrow capitalism so we'll have to create clear demands to serve as "a Trojan Horse." See this post: http://occupywallst.org/article/occupywallstreet-update-from-adbusters/
And the infamous November 17 poster echoing Tiananmen Square: http://occupywallst.org/article/poster-n17-mass-direct-action-print-and-post-freel/
There's also the Fist logo on the OWS site, and the practice for while of writing "General Assembly" in the scrolling calendar with an anarchist "A." They stopped that a day after I wrote to one of the working groups about this. My background is in anthropology and symbolism…so I can't help pick out these things! And, human nature being what it is…symbols DO matter.
More substantively, I'm really curious to hear what OWS supporters have as their vision for a better world. I'd like a few concrete examples of what changes can be made. I know no one speaks for OWS -- but what do individual supporters hope happens? Do you want salary limits? By how much? Literally tear down our capitalist system and create an alternative economic system? Or system of redistribution of goods? What are some of the ideas out there? :)
No one is talking about salary limits. Have you read any of the material available in websites like THE NATION or commondreams.org related to restructuring taxes. They are at an all time for the wealthy and the corporations. When the centrist and rightest pundits start talking about "redistributing wealth it's not communistic, it's getting back to raising revenues through taxation and re-establishing tax equity that was in place in the 50's and 60's.
rcarmstrong, I'm not saying anyone is talking salary limits. I'm just asking what your/other OWS supporter visions are. That's just an example -- I'm trying to elicit specifics.
Here are a few very specific ideas that I don't think there would be much objection to:
The FBI reports that 80% of mortgage fraud was lender fraud. Without prosecutions, this is likely to happen again. (http://www.fbi.gov/stats-services/publications/fcs_report2007)
Restore the Glass-Stegal - there's too much risk being taken on the public dime.
Change SEC Leverage Requirements back to pre-2005 levels of 12-to-1, rather than 50-to-1. This just magnifies the impact of speculation, and when combined with the Glass-Steagal repeal, means more trouble.
The IRS reports the 400 wealthiest families are taxed on average 16.5%. Why? A seriously look needs to be taken at tax havens, loop holes, and even the capital gains tax rate.
The Fortune 500 companies are paying $0 in taxes, or getting a rebate, and those that are paying taxes average only 18.5%. Why? A serious look needs to be taken at corporate tax havens and loop holes. (http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-20129155/study-many-fortune-500-cos-paid-$0-taxes/)
Loss Carry-back needs to be looked at. It is a mechanism that allows corporations to get back taxes payed on preceding years at the corporate tax rate of 35%. Combined with off-shore subsidiaries, corporations are allowed to make record profits, and pay little to no taxes, or even get a refund, like Bank of America, who made $4.4 billion while getting a $1 billion refund. (http://www.investopedia.com/terms/l/losscarryback.asp#axzz1eI2UFARy)
Tax Deductible Status of damages and settlements done by corporations needs to be looked at. This is why corporations almost always settle and rarely pay a criminal fine, because it is tax deductible and means they save 35%. Combined with loss carry-back, this allows companies like BP that do astronomical damage to put almost 70% of the loss on the tax payer.
These are just basic issues to prevent the next economic disaster in the making. They should be considered a bare minimum. I think what upsets a lot of people is that no issue that can prevent the next collapse is even up for debate among our representatives.
I don't argue with either of you. What this moment (and Movement) offers, is a chance to amplify those 'instructions' to the various State and Federal legislators, at the 'point' of a Movement that has the capacity to garner the attention of LOTS of voters -and- candidates.
No, I'm not typically a huge believer in merely voting changing much of anything. I'm well aware, after numerous decades of activism, that the same monied interests who undermine and steal from our way of life, are the very same entities who contribute sufficient wealth to effect the structuring of primary and general ballots, ad monies during election season, etc.
But now, especially, with the MF Global implosion, the invester class is getting hit hard by these criminals, too. They're nolonger simply pissing on the heads of we, the Lilliputians; they're pissing in the faces of the more elevated house servants, the primary butlers and maids, too.
A libertarian acquaintance in Indiana, who's also a juris doctorate and an investor, wants to see more signs in the marches that read: "Stop The Looting, Start Prosecuting," as THAT'S what has been notably absent when these thieves have cut loose with their self-serving financial crimes.
And we may, just may, be posed to witness this in a meaningful way, for the first time since who-knows-when.. Hopefully in wholesale numbers, with stiff prison sentences for each and every one of the persons involved in this graft. To include those who were derelict in their duties at the SEC.
I'm not holding my breath, but I am more hopeful than I would be under ordinary circumstances.
Yup. The demands all involve the "J" word. The make perfect sense.
I would also suggest that we should abolish the Goldman-Sachs commodity index. That is because it is being manipulated in such a way that the 1% are intentionally creating shortages of most all commodities.
Excellent ideas for concrete reform in the financial businesses.
These are some of the kinds of things we need to put forth to the legislators at all levels, so they can at least start looking at what will need to (minimally) occur to even -mildly- quell some of the reactions to the distaste that their previous antics represent.
We have allready spend the last four years petitioning our elected representatives for these specific reforms.
They intentionally, willfully, and malliciously refused to listen to the 99%. It is a matter of Congressional record.
Many of us were there all the way warning of this economic catastrophe since 1995.
Now we face a much worse economic crash in the near future unless we ca stop the 1% who are planning a mass-murder of the 99%.
Warbstar is correct. Personally, I became aware of the impact of destructive policies as far back as NAFTA in '94, because that is when the economics of my hometown started to be dismantled. Every election cycle, new issues pile up, things get worse.
A lot of us feel like broken records saying the same things (not just the issues above) for over a decade. Pick an area about commerce, trade, property, court access, health care, military, etc., and a lot of people can give 10 common sense reforms in ten minutes.
OWS is catching a lot of support from corporate drones like myself because for the first times in our lives, we see it manifest physically. For the first time, we realize that we're not alone.
A public voice in the debate is a prerequisite for any real reform. Nothing above will be discussed until we have a voice. Until then, Congress will still be debating whether to make deals with the frozen food companies and classify pizza sauce as a vegetable. You know, important stuff for the 1%.
Ok, I hope I gave some, and I see that vnayar did below. Here is a wonderful TED talk http://www.commondreams.org/video/2011/11/19 about how some wealthy folks feel about the duty of paying taxes. And I'd also like to offer "The Story of Broke" from the makers of "The Story of Stuff." http://www.commondreams.org/video/2011/11/19 They also produced an excellent piece about the Citzen's United Supreme Court decision which recognizes corporations as persons with free speech rights guaranteed by our constitution.
Meesa, That's not the way I read it at all. I think that they were saying that the tired out phrase, "overthrow capitalism" cause people to ignore them, and so they had to come up with a fresh message, appropriate for the times, that would serve as an entry point for addressing larger, systemic problems. I do not believe that this commie code. It makes sense to me that you keep the message simple, but you know that it's not simple, so simplicity is you Trojan Horse because people will listen.
After all, isn't communism, socialism, and anarchism those worn out leftie dogmas that they were talking about?
I interpret their view as these are inflexible and failed systems of thought--rigid. That's how I interpret dogma. When you're dogmatic, you see things in black and white. I sense a respect for the complexity of the issues; there are a matrix of issues. However, for the purpose of making signs, "We Are the 99%" is the starting point, a clear and simple message that begins the campaign. It crystalizes the issue and serves as a starting point.
See this is what people think when they see things like the N17 exchange blockade and subway occupation. People who might agree that the game is rigged and unfair but who see what this group is doing and interpret it to be a potentially violent fringe thing. Not the best image for the movement to portray. Fringe elements are easy to dismiss, don't attract people to join them en masse, and are exceedingly vulnerable to propaganda campaigns against them.
Good point.
Jimmy, did you really understand anything Turtle said to you?
Keep living in a dream world, how'd that n17 march of closing banks shutting down go, weird how they are still open, same thing with ports, you'll disrupt it for one day and that's it, your dream utopia is failing, who made you guys god?
I'm pretty sure that a day of closure of the Port of Oakland was what Occupy Oakland and the Unions had intended. That said, I'd call it a successful strike and closure.
They stated it would be closed for a day, as the result of a one-day strike. They closed it for a day.
Maybe I missed something in the fine print?
And God? No, not me. Though some faiths claim that God lives within all of us, while some of the other faiths believe that we were made in the image of God.
As for me, I'm still holding out, trying to live as cleanly as possible, and intending that if there is a God, that I've hopefully crafted a slate that receives forgiveness, rather than condemnation.
How 'bout you??
Then again, if you're asking who it is that permitted persons to feel empowered to close ports as a matter of civil disobedience, social unrest, or strikes related to social causes, well, I think I already answered that in numerous places, as have others.
The unions have sufficient presence to assist in such a closure, and the protesters are able to do their part to assure that action as well.
Now, if you're referring to the 'why' of it, well, it seems to be their perception and/or experience, which states that conventional means of addressing systemic corruption and a lack of representation in their government has mostly failed.
On that note, I'd tend to agree.
Again, you?
what did that accomplish? Nothing.
Which part?
all of it, everything OWS has done has accomplished nothing, i'm sure our government and banks are shaking in thier boots right or not.
If you want to assure yourself that this has had no impact, then there's nothing I can possibly tell you that will change that. Your mind is made up.
I'd assert, however, that the kinds of squelching of speech and actions that the authorities and various mayors have engaged in across this country, indicate that those in charge of maintaining the status quo, are, at a minimum, fearing some of the residuals or implications this unrest could translate into.
The fact that Bloomberg saw fit to violate civil liberties, by locking out the press when he approved the abrupt and violent raid on Zuccotti Park is indicative of the fear the folks in power have, regarding light being shed on how it is they operate, and why.
The fact that a lobbying group has offered to do serious reputation damage to members of OWS, for a fee of $850,000, proposed to be paid by the Bankers' Association, is indicative of their seeing a arguable perceived threat, and offering their mercenary services to contend with that threat.
The fact that both R & D candidates and incumbents have, at one time or another in the very recent past, tried to hijack some of the messages of OWS is indicative of their placing some credence in the polls that say there are many persons who agree with OWS.
There are many signs that there is at least some gain being made.
If you can close a port for even a day, you briefly affect the gravy train of those who orchestrate the inequality. if you close it for weeks, you cause major impact to persons who would prefer to see the Commoners as inconsequential, but whose wallets say differently.
If you can cause enough commotion and stoppage to 'business as usual,' in one way or another, you can force the hand held by those in power that says, "These issues need resolved; for ALL of our own good." Which is what the message should've been from those sources of power all along. Shouldn't it?
[Removed]
How exactly?
Occupy Wall Street = Hypocrites.
Wow. Somebody is making a major contribution to the OWS cause. Can you guys believe that Hasseelhoff1 is spending so much time kicking dirt? This is great!
The more the opposition the greater the OWS's success.
Libya death toll estimated around 30,000. So now you can see what is necessary to get this accomplished. Who are the volunteers?
"The 1% has disrupted the lives of longshoremen and port truckers and the workers who create their wealth"
You really think that its the workers creating wealth for the 1% or is it more like the 1% creating jobs and opportunity for the longshoremen and the truckers? What would happen if the1% as a result shut down their business on these ports? I bet OWS and the longshoremen will have some fun conversations over that one.
The 1% in this case is a foreign grain exporter which asked for and got tax breaks to build and bring jobs here. They then turned around, ignored their lease contract to hire longshore workers, and hired unionized out of work construction engineers from a state with cheaper pay/pensions. Robbed Peter's job to pay Paul less.
So would this be cause to bash the 1% or the government promoting this?
It's the longshore workers who are trying to get their contracts honored, and asking for support. General strikes by national unions have been criminalized so outside groups have to organize them.
Occupy Wall Street is leaderless resistance movement.
Really? Do you really believe these decisions are coming without direction from those who don't care about you and the America your parents and grand parents grew up knowing? Shutting down ports only denies working people of their jobs.
That's not entirely true it does hurt working people, but it hurts the people at the top far more. The hope would be in the long term that it would benefit the working class of longshoreman, and if you look at the history of strikes across the country there is certainly strong precedent to make that assumption.
I disagree. Shutting down the ports do not hit the wealthy, only those who need the pay check. Those strikes that have been successful come from union activity. You guys seem to have a communist and anarchist mentality with will profit you little respect from the majority of Americans and capitalist minded businessmen.
If you don't like what is going on, try going out and starting your own business. Mow a lawn. DO something productive that will give you tangible, satisfying results.
Well look I have a full-time job bartending, a college degree, and I'm in grad school doing my MBA in healthcare management. I'm not a communist. I do work really hard and nobody helps me out. Which is more than most of the people on Wall Street can say. I tried to open up my own business two years ago; a bar. I had a solid business plan with all of my costs accounted for, a location for the bar, I paid a professional chef to create the menu, and had a detailed breakdown of what all of my overhead costs would be. I even had $125,000 in investor money. The banks told me they weren't extended lines of credit to first time business owners. banks, plural. What am I supposed to do I'm not rich and these banks won't give me a chance to be? I do want to be a business owner!
Media attention. That is another goal. It isn't just about the workers.
Corbini, seriously? You're sounding like an educated person and like you really want to discuss this. Do you really, honestly think...for yourself...that shutting down the ports for one day, will hurt a rich man who lives across the country, or the guy struggling to get by who needs that paycheck to make the rent. Who really, --dig for it if you have to, but think for yourself...who actually will be hurt more?
You're partly correct and I think there is a lot of validity to this viewpoint, shutting down the ports for one day does hurt the working man more. However, pro-longed strikes have always been the greatest weapon of the working class and have been incredibly effective at bringing positive change. A pro-longed strike does hurt the elites more than the working man, or at least as much as the working man. I think OWS plan of shutting down the ports for the day is more symbolic of the peoples ability to shut down businesses long-term.
Thanks for thinking corbini. Keep doing it.
Thanks! In the end I'll support shutting down the ports, but I also think we should consider flash mob action as a better option. I really think they could be equally effective at getting attention, and driving conversation, without as much harm to the economy in general. We also need to put together a big rally in DC. We've made our point that the focus needs to be on Wall Street, but there are two guilty parties here. I think it's time to let the country know we're not letting the politicians off the hook either, after all, they are the ones accepting the bribes. They could say no.
It's the longshore workers who are trying to get their contracts honored, and asking for support. General strikes by national unions have been criminalized so outside groups have to organize them.
If your not worth anything it should not be illegal for me not to hire you, simple as that. If you want a decent job build up your self worth. Yes I do understand this goes against all of your principals of Socialism and communism, but guess what? The true working Americans actually have aspirations to be successful and build self wealth. That is why America was created in the first place. We don't want to be told how much money we can make, or be told where we can work. When I become successful i don't want anybody to try to tell me I make too much and need to give some to people that don't want to work as hard as me.
If you chose a liberal arts degree and are mad because no one will hire you, you can't blame America. Get a degree related to manufacturing or something with current demand. Or you could just get mad at your own decisions and assemble with other like minded creatures and attempt to disrupt all of the people who are currently in the pursuit of happiness.
What you clearly don't understand is that no one really cares how much money anyone MAKES. It's the fact that some who make humungous amounts of money feel they are ENTITLED to dictate how policy is made the DICTATES to the 99. Make your money, just don't steal everyone elses to do it. And don't decide down the road that you get to decide how the "little " people get to live just because you devoted yourself to the accumulation of wealth.
"It's the fact that SOME who make humungous" this is true and I can agree with this, but the SOME you are referring to are not the majority. Its the same as saying SOME people abuse the welfare system, so it will be taken away from everyone.
Exactly.
not sure which point triggered your response...
SOME, unfortunately - it's the some that forces all laws to be made right?
Laws to control the "some" sure, but what has been proposed are ideas to make laws to control ALL. So should I take the actions and statements of "some" of the OWS movement and apply that to everyone in the movement?
Don't understand. Two completely different subjects. It seems to me that OWS is formulating itself,, hopefully it will bring forward some creative ideas and not get co-opted by people with ulterior motives or destructive intentions. I just don't see anything wrong with this whole endeavor. I have watched the ordinary Americans be shut out of every conversation by the media and by Washington itself overmany years and this is the first time in a very long time where REAL Americans are speaking their minds and all I see in the media is the usual suspects trying to defame and disinform the public about what it is really about. It's about peopel. It's so simple.
Well said kiruna, they are trying to drive the energy away from the real focus. It's all semantics.
I cannot support a group that has no linear agenda, focus, objective, or solution. They have barely even identified the problem (most of them think its rich people) I am all about free speech, and for the right reasons revolution. I personally have been calling for revolution for some time but against the government, not fellow Americans who happen to have a higher income than I do.
please stay open minded a while longer it's not against the rich, it's to stop the rigging...
Current demand is overthrowing the most lazy of all. 1% is all. THAT is pursuit of happiness x 99%!
Your comment may sound witty to some, but it holds no weight. So the 1% that you don't like are the ones who became wealthy by means other than their own? Sure there are a lot of them, but this is not the majority of the 1%. The majority you will never see, because they spend all their time working hard running corporations and businesses. Making decisions on a daily basis that in comparison make your whole movement seem very insignificant. Are you an American citizen? If you are and you are not able to create a comfortable living situation for yourself you are either disabled (welfare supports most of these people) lazy, or make horrible decisions that are directly impacting your ability to succeed.
If only life were that easy to sum up. But then I doubt there would be any conversation if things were truly as simple as you would like to believe. Perhaps you should go out and talk to some people and hear their stories. Some people are very fortunate that their lives don't contain unplanned for crisis'. But they happen, and instead of villifying people who have had reversals of fortune, perhaps you should just be grateful that you have not.
Yes my statement was broad, but I feel its almost necessary given the forum. My point I believe was clear. I do believe that America provides the OPPORTUNITY for any person to be able to create wealth for themselves.
I still believe in my last statement regarding the 3 reasons why one could not reach success in America and I would challenge you to find an example to disprove this.
Well personally, I started working at age 14 ( part-time) continued working through-out my life, put my-self through college. Well, almost , but then my husband rather inconvieneintly got Alzheimers Disease. I could have dumped him in a nursing home. I know that is what I was supposed to think I should do, but I didn't think he deserved that, as anyone with any experience knows - that is a speedy death sentence. He spent eight years - four in combat - serving our country in WW!!. He lived a good and honorable life. And so I cared for him for seven years without help. I won't go into great detail about the aftermath, but the point is that sometime the best laid plans go to hell through no fault of anyones. Life happens and no one can prepare for every eventaullity, because there can always be one more. My story is not unique, I am in an age group where this kind of thing is happening to a lot of people I know because of the time in life we have reached and even if you have insurance and all the stuff that should take care of most of it, it doesn't anymore.
I in no way mean to seem insensitive, but I am not making my statements on a personal level. The questions I will pose are not to attack your intelligence, but merely to gain more insight. Are you saying the insurance plan that was in place was somehow void and as a result you are currently in financial ruin? Did you explore any welfare options or possibly VA assistance? How do you think restricting the earning potential of America could have affected the outcome of your situation?
Actually what happens is that if you do everything "the right way" there are NO resources available to you unless you have no income. Which is my point, we had insurance, we had enough income to make us ineleidgeble for any assistance, but you cannot care for someone for years with no help, so eventually you go down the tubes. I really don't think anyone is advocating restricting anyones earning potential. I don't. What I do advocate is that the system which allows a multitude of opportunities for extremely wealthy to avoid paying a reasonable amount of tax and even gives corporations a free pass is unfair. I It is actually the working middle-class that gets screwed most in this whole system right now, and they are fed up. We weren't rich enough or poor enough to get any help from anywhere. Most people aren't looking for someone to take over their problems for them, I know I wasn't, but when confronted with crisis, sometimes you need some help, and believe me - there isn't much out there for the working stiff.
"I really don't think anyone is advocating restricting anyone's earning potential." I think that is exactly the sentiment I got from the majority of the OWS statements and comments. This might not hold true with you, and for that I am thankful.
Consider this; Instead of targeting the already rich people, why not target the government to allow more people to achieve this wealth through ideas like tax brakes for new business owners and entrepreneurs. Create jobs by motivating people to do something for themselves. Big time welfare reform would save millions that could be funneled back into small businesses. The list goes on, and all of this could be achieved with out killing the American dream of generating financial freedom.
Basically what I'm trying to say is it's not the 1% that is the problem, it is our government. If this was the OWS agenda I would be first in line to take a baton to the head.
how about our gov and bigbusiness run the show and if they mess up, bail them out with golden parachutes
I'm pretty sure that's one of the reasons for this mess. If the government didn't step in and try to run capitalism the "too big to fail" corporations would have failed and created ample opportunity for re-building and re-structuring business for the better. So once again, I can't place blame on the 1%. This one can also be chalked up to the government.
why do we need a 9000 page tax code again????
This is exactly why you are loosing favor with the rest of the 99%. You are the 0.125% pretending to speak for the 99%.
Disrupting commerce will only increase the unemployment rate and your approval rating will sink further. They called the Tea Party folks terrorists for just protesting on Saturdays.
And people weren't inconvenienced during the civil rights movement? If I remember correctly, it all started getting the attention it truly deserved when people stopped going to work, costing a lot of money. Even then protesters were arrested, and told they were wrong for hurting the economy, for inconveniencing others.
Could you please stop comparing this "movement" to the Civil Rights movement? That is an insult to the Civil Rights participants. Occupy has not yet drafted any semblance of a statement of purpose and action -- other than trite slogans like "down with the rich" (I saw this during a recent OWS march) and the over-simpliified 99% mantra. The Civil Rights movement had definite goals -- desegregation in schools and transportation, voting rights. Marches went to DC and state capitols; sit-ins were directly engaging with rules considered to be unacceptable. Where are the clear goals of Occupy?
and this makes it ok for you hurt people, why? Because people were inconvenienced at another time in history? So if someone murdered someone, that would make it ok for you to steal? Where has the independent thinking gone among OWS?
It is a strange thing that I have gone from one of Occupy's strongest supporters to total disbelief at the sheep repeating what the ows masters say.
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Which of your rights have been violated? The US has the highest average and median wage in the world.
You want your cake and eat it too. You want an even higher wage and by the way, no companies can move overseas. It just does not work that way. Comapnies will go where they are wanted. You cannot stop them.
It may have the highest median wage, but it also has one of the highest costs of living. American workers can't possibly compete with Chinese workers who earn $2/day. The cost of living in China is less so they can live off of less. Also, to say that companies can go where they want, and there's nothing you can do about it is also not exactly true. In principal, you're right, a company can exist wherever it wants. However, companies WANT to be in the United States because we have the largest consumer market in the world. If they WANT to be here, we can dictate to a certain extent how they have to operate.
Good grief, where do people get these figures that put the US "highest" in the world? German workers earn more, sit on the boards of their companies with equal voting rights, and profit-share. Many Scandinavian and European workers have more upward mobility than Americans, more social services, less crime. That's why you don't see them risking life and limb to get into this country.
Which was my point before. You need to offset a high wage with higher productivity and quality or companies will move elsewhere. You cannot force a company to locate in the US. There is a reason people will pay $60.000 for an Audi, BMW or Mercedes and not for a Chevy, Ford or Crysler. Quality and workmanship.
As far as where they locate, they cal locate in China and sell over here. You cannot stop that. You cannot tell other countries that they can't sell products here. We may be the larges consmer markey but we are only 28%. For every $1.00 we import we export $0.90. PLaying the tarrif game is dangerous as was demonstrated by the Smoot Hawley Act in 1930.
Now that there is a European Union, the slacker countries like Greece and Spain want the Germans to bail them out. Greece for a third time.
American productivity is unsurpassed, American corporations WERE profiting when they operated here. They simply profit MORE overseas where workers have no rights, which is where the GOP wants Americans to be: without workers' rights.
As for German quality, like I said, it's a FACT, 50% of those who sit on those boards of those great companies are WORKERS, not the idiots who sit on U.S. boards whose only qualifications are they're some rich man's brat and who take every shortcut to make a buck and don't know jack about how to engineer and manufacture with the kind of training/equipment German workers have.
And the common and very insidious racist "slacker" stereotype for southern European nations is also bull, no pun intended. People work to live everywhere. Corruption is everywhere, as is unearned profit. I know as many millionaire slackers as poor and middle class slackers. Greece and Spain simply don't have as many high-finance thieves who have destroyed so many lives worldwide, like England, France, the U.S. and Germany, that they make me rethink my opposition to the death penalty.
Southern Europe is not a race so my comment could not have been racist.
I have friends in Southern Europe and have been there several times. They have more time off and work less hours in those countries than anywhere on the planet. Not everyone there feels this way but there is a large portion of the population that believes the government should take care of them.
The riots in Greece were because of plan by the government to raise the retirement age from 61 to 63. They want to “slack” earlier and the government does not have the money. They believe they are entitled to slack early so they destroy private property of shop owners that had nothing to do with the decision. I believe that was disgraceful.
No you have it wrong. It is not for quality and workmanship, but for the name brand. Think Nikes selling their shoes for 150$ a pair.
Excuse me? People buy "brand names" like BMWs and Audis because of the product they get. Great engine, great ride, great interior.
People buy Honda for repair record. People do not choose Honda because of a logo.
Yes with marketing you can pu Michael Jordan on a sneaker and people kids will want it but for the most part people will pay more for a quality product that they believe will last.
It's the longshore workers who are trying to get their contracts honored, and asking for support. General strikes by national unions have been criminalized so outside groups have to organize them.
my math was .000005% but I think your point is still clear.
Why does the ows crowd aspire to drag others down rather than build themselves up. Seems it's more important to shift blame for personal choices than accept individual responsibility. I expect that if the polling sources asked the general population if the ows represented them, the answer would be well below 99%. Probably closer to 1%.
They have polled the general population and OWS has more support than any political movement in the country, but yes it is certainly below 99%. You can blame people for getting into mortgages they can't afford, but don't let the banks who engaged in predatory lending and fraud off the hook either.
I agree with you there. Don't let the banks off the hook. But OWS does not have to violently take control of CA ports and hurt the workers to make them the whipping boys for the banks. Whip the banks, stop hurting the people. OWS should CARE about the people and what we want, instead of telling us what we should want. NO, we don't want the ports closed, the sidewalks blocked, the traffic blocked, the parks useless to us. NO.
Wow... So your goal is to destroy America? In other words youre saying: "LETS HIT OURSELVES WHERE IT HURTS!"
no you're right america's just fine how it is. let's bring back slavery too while we're at it.
OK Youre right; lets self-sanction ourselves.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston_Tea_Party
Wow what a non sequitur... I think I have whiplash!
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Got to admire their dedication to their own utter stupidity.
I noticed you felt wrongly labeled as R-wing in other conversations... I'll point out now that you've just said that everyone in this forum is stupid. I think it more accurate - if you must call names- to refer to those that you are speaking with and leave the others out.. otherwise, it lowers your credibility.
Fair enough. I'll try to be more specific.
Bloody hippies. It's boring now. Just go home.
The OCW movement just makes me sick. As a former Marine who has traveled to over 20 countries in South America, Asia, the Middle East, and Europe. I have seen tyranny, oppression, depression, theft, revolution, war, communism, socialism, and the truly poor. OCW supporters do not seem to be educated or knowledgeable about what they are standing up for, or who they are standing next to or with. Though our system of government and capitalism is not perfect, and freedom allows for corruption as well as ignorance to rear their ugly heads, our government is the best and most successful option in the world.
We must remember that for the most part, Business Owners, Politicians, Laborers, Upper Class, Middle Class, and the unfortunate are all good people. To stand and say that mistakes by our government, banks, and capitalism is the reason for, or justifies revolution or a conversion to socialism, is a demonstration of ignorance. Look at the labor conditions in other countries, look at the continuous failure and oppression due to socialist policies, look at history…..
If you use facts and figures to support your rhetoric, if you really understand history, economics, and business, if you just travel outside of the United States and experience or observer what you are asking for, you will see we are the richest country in the world that takes care of its people better than any other. There is no place that has the freedoms, entitlements, opportunities, labor laws and conditions, and higher educational system like the US. There is no place like home, if you don’t like it here and you believe revolution, violence, and anarchy is the answer to change, you are un-American in my eyes. If you want freedom to explore and live your Socialist, Communist, Marxists ideologies….. Leave….. Go abroad to those countries who will give you what you seek…. If you love America and are proud to be an American you can start your own business, run for office, work with your government to change laws and policies, change jobs if you think you don’t get paid enough or don’t like their policies, make good choices for your future, be responsible for taking on too much personal debt, educate yourself on investments so you don’t make bad decisions, stop or start voting for policies or people to help control spending and create an environment that allows entrepreneurs to prosper, help your neighbors, strive to make positive changes. As a country we have lost our loyalty to our Country, to God, and to our neighbors. We have an entitlement mentality that wants something for nothing and thinks we are owed something. This is not what the foundation of our country was based on. The US used to be the 99% where we helped and stood by each other allowing people to make their own choices….. Life is about choices. In the past when things got tough, the country banded together and created new opportunities together. Are you part of the problem or the solution? Do you love being an American and believe in our system of government?
This is the second time I have read this post. Are you a plant or something? My husband and my father and my brother were all combat veterans. My husband 8 years, my dad 4 years.. and these last few years I am glad they have passed on so that they can not see what has been done to this country that they gave so much for.This corruption and greed is NOT what they sacrificed for and if you think they would be proud of what's going on now,,,think again.
my father served too in Vietnam. My grandfather served in World War II and was from New York City Garment district. He is going senile luckily for him because the way this nation has became is not what he fought for either. He fought for a just and fair nation. A nation that values human rights. That does not discriminate against people for their orientation and sex and race. I know it sounds harsh to say he's lucky being senile but he really is. Because he was soo upset by this nation the last few years he had his mind that at least now he is not upset any more. It started when the Reich wing tried to ban gay marriage and my cousin is gay. He served with gay men in World War II and said that is not what makes a man. Then when Obama failed to get us universal health care that did it for him. He said he almost wished the USSR won the cold war because at least they kept the US in check during the cold war.
I am not a plant. I come from a long family history of military service... Most all of my family served from WWI and are currently serving. I am sure everyone who has served is proud of America and our defense of our way of life, and freedoms. I think we all agree we are in difficult times and there has been corruption and poor economic policies and decisions. However, I am simply stating I do not agree with or stand by the OCW movement and methodologies. This is not the America we all fought for and stood by…. I do not agree with the current policies of the government or the those who are calling for socialist policies, collective distribution of wealth, or the collapse of our government or economic system. There are better ways.
it is the america we fought for, revolutionaries against the british you should know better than most ows will prevail
proudamerican26 might be the most realistic person in this forum. Kudos to you for having your own EDUCATED opinion based upon first hand experience in other countries.
I see. You fought for our right to protest so long as it doesn't make you uncomfortable.
Thanks for your response. I am glad you are not a plant, and I share your concerns.
now that is a good question - Do YOU know what an American is? I will give you a little clue.... I am a sovereign American and a citizen of THE REPUBLIC OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA and i believe you are a citizen of the CORPORATION OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
i mean no disrespect but you look it up. you are a product of a corporation you can expatriate from the corporate united states of america and inpatriate to the REPUBLIC OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA Hope this will help you
I have seen this post two times here too now. If you are not a plant why do you feel a need to post over and over again the same exact post?
the same reason people who are protesting on the streets repeat themselves over and over. To get my message heard and in hopes people might think a minute about who they are standing by and what they are standing for. You seem to know who I am and the life beliefs of a Marine (to be a former Marine or not) But do you know the leaders and influencers behind OWS? There are people behind these protests who want nothing more than the collapse of our government and economy because they hate America and the American way. There have been people (radicals, socialists, Marxists, and several organizations) wanting and planning this for years. If OWS succeeds in what their goal to collapse the economy, all the reasons you think you are protesting will become reality. There will truly be months, years, or decades of real economic depression, social chaos, food shortages, civil unrest, starvation, homelessness, chaos, job loss, etc. The banks will surely control the money by order of the government which will not go away. We will see Military on the streets, marshal law will be imposed, the rights you currently have will be suspended, and in fact we will have given the government more power. This is not just rhetoric or me ranting. There is a ton of history and evidence to support this. Just look it up. Checkout "The revolution business" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-P7uuPCWXng and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lpXbA6yZY-8 and "OWS Exposed" and 10 great financial collapses in history http://listverse.com/2010/08/10/10-great-financial-collapses-in-history/
There are no former marines - once a marine always a marine
Former Marine is an acceptable term used by Marines who are not on active duty. Make no mistake, you are correct, once a Marine always a Marine. Semper Fi!
I have been searching all over the Internet for an answer to the one question I have about the Occupy movement - and I have not been able to find it. Maybe someone here can answer it. What exactly does the Occupy movement want? From newspaper articles and unofficial list of demands, I get the feeling that many Occupy protesters are asking for communist like and conflicting demands. One person, in the same list, asked for free college educations and less taxes. Do people realize that many of these demands are impossible? Yes, I am part of the "1%". But I am in that economic position because of the hard work of my grandparents and parents. One of my grandpas grew up in a one room house in Northern Michigan, one of eight siblings. They didn't even have indoor plumbing. Now, he is 84 years old and still working as a lawyer. Maybe it's not just the inconceivable and impossible demands that Occupy protesters are advocating for that is making me mad and annoyed at this whole movement. I think that it is the fact that many people in the "99%" do not realize that for the most part, people in the "1%" got to where they are because of hard work and determination. I also think that some people in the "99%" do not realize that they are in that economic position not because of bad luck, but because of terrible choices they have made. Not everyone in the "1%" is evil and corrupt. Stop trying to punish those who actually earned their economic position and actually take a firm stance on what you want. And please, get educated. It's bad enough that you're making demands that include "debt forgiveness for all".
Anyone who is productive and works for a living should be able to live a secure life. Why is it ok for a large numbers of workers to make nothing while a few men at top make millions off of their labor?
Relative value provided.
so you didn't build yourself any worth where you were able to find productive means of income, and now blame it on the people who did work hard and became successful. I think that is the worst possible sentiment someone could have.
Wow you make some pretty broad generalizations don't you... You basically just called every person in the middle class lazy and stupid...
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/some
This is the link to the definition of the word "some".
Maybe we shouldn't be focusing on economic problems. Maybe we should be focusing on the present problem of people not understanding simple words.
Wow, don't be such a rich asshole.....you play right into the stereotype sweety....
Guy, don't act like you're 15 just because they make a point. 99% of the people do not want OWS violence, do not want OWS speaking for them. We do want the bank bullshit and corrupt government to stop, but not the terrorist way OWS wants to do it, by shutting down ports? That's like burning down the house because you don't like the wallpaper.
Sweetly is spelled like so...
s-w-e-e-t-l-y.
You fit the bill for a radical, uneducated, unhappy person quite nicely.
The word sweety was referring to you. Also, I am highly educated holding terminal degrees from respected universities. I have worked hard my entire life and am well on my way to being in the 1 percent, however I'm not such an asshole that I cannot understand OWS message.
What message? You mean the one they haven't decided over yet?
Yeah, that was kind of the whole post of my original post...what OWS's message is...
when you get there and are told most of your income will be used to support people with no ambition, you can thank the movement that you are supporting.
Awesome. Nice work. Question: are you willing to pay, say, 25% more in taxes to give to OWS campers that are not working toward being closer to the 1% but would prefer to be supported by them
Absolutely, I'm comfortable, I have a good life, more then I need. I have no problem with paying more taxes, because I know that it all is not all going to the lazy, it goes for infrastructure, SS, Medicare, and other programs that help our country. If I don't make it into the one percent that is fine with me.
Ok. That is a good sentiment. Next challenge is to have government spend wisely and efficiently, no waste, and for more people to be like you (work and produce). Then we would have a well conceived and efficient economy, capitalist in structure, efficient in action.
The ambition that very few Americans seem to have left will be decimated if any of this re-distribution crap goes anywhere. Who would want to work hard when you are rewarded for being lazy.
Then donate.
truly pathetic comments, if you hate OWS so much why are you on here reading all this stuff?
I started with OWS from the beginning and spent almost two months in our park. It was noble at the beginning. But the increasing violence and ridiculous 'justifications' for hurting the regular Joes out there, no I try to convince other people in OWS to use their brains too. Instead of just regurgitating what OWS puppet masters tell them.
My goal is to thwart this movement. If you hate America so much why are you still here?
Plus 1billion. I am not in the 1% but I hope to be one day. I plan on accomplishing this through hard work and building my self worth. If the ability to grow wealthy is restricted in America, then I no longer want to be a part of that America, OWS's America. Or I guess we could just call it USSA United Socialist States of America.
I agree wholeheartedly with you.
Congratulations on seeing OWS for what it truly is.
I think most people see this for what it really is. I think this movement has become more like the 3% movement.
Great deduction! I support OWS peaceful protesters not the hooligans but more and more this movement is becoming stagnate filled with democratic, socialistic, or/and communistic idealism that is a natural enemy of our country. Why they aren't protesting at the federal reserve, lobbyists groups, and our federal government is incomprehensible.
From what I can tell having participated in Occupy, you can boil it down to this: Occupy ultimately wants to promote a change in how government and the 1% interact. Also, you have to understand that specific policy changes are not thoroughly formulated within the social movements themselves. A good example: did the protestors of the lunch counter sit-ins have a copy of the civil rights act in hand during protests? No..the only thing they knew is that something was not right and they needed to put the public spotlight on the problem. It is not up to the protestors to actually author the policy changes, it is their job to bring about awareness. I congratulate you and your family on your successes, yet urge you to also take a closer look at the problem. Businesses and CEOs CAN fail in a business environment that is not secure. As part of the 1%, this should concern you. Business and policy decisions that undermine the security of the stakeholders and labor force have far-reaching impacts that can crumble both the high and low income earners…oh wait, except the government will bail you out..I forget. Just had to throw that jab in. = ) Mainly because the bailout only helped centralize the asset holdings even more, further monopolizing the market thus leaving us open to the hazards that accompany monopolies.
And yes, occupiers should get educated. It makes me sick to my stomach when I see people saying they have student loan debt and that they need it paid off...I mean, come on...
Lindsey, thanks for the thoughtful and clear reply. The thing is, OWS charged out of the gate saying "our demands will be made." THIS IS FROM THIS VERY WEBSITE'S BLOG THREE MONTHS AGO: "Strategically speaking, there is a very real danger that if we naively put our cards on the table and rally around the "overthrow of capitalism" or some equally outworn utopian slogan, then our Tahrir moment will quickly fizzle into another inconsequential ultra-lefty spectacle soon forgotten. But if we have the cunning to come up with a deceptively simple Trojan Horse demand … something profound, yet so specific and doable that it is impossible for President Obama to ignore … something that spotlights Wall Street's financial capture of the US political system and confronts it with a pragmatic solution … like the reinstatement of the Glass-Steagall Act … or a 1% tax on financial transactions … or an independent investigation by the U.S. Department of Justice into the corporate corruption of our representatives in Washington … or another equally creative but downright practical demand that will emerge from the people's assemblies held during the occupation … and if we then put our asses on the line, screw up our courage and hang in there day after day, week after week, until a large swath of Americans start rooting for us and President Obama is forced to respond … then we just might have a crack at creating a decisive moment of truth for America, a first concrete step towards achieving the radical changes we all dream about unencumbered by commitments to existing power structures."
http://occupywallst.org/article/occupywallstreet-update-from-adbusters/
No, I completely endorse your "jab" about bailouts.
I too hate the stupid bailout and think it was a stupid idea. I advocate capitalism and laissez fair, not government interaction in the economy.
I believe the government should have let the companies it bailed out go under so that thousands of small businesses could have risen from the ashes. That is true capitalism.
But beyond the fact that some of the "1%" is participating in illegal activities with the government, I believe in the current system of capitalism.
It's not about punishing. It's about working for a better, more just society. A society which is not so heavily stacked in favor of profit vs. people that the top 1% see their already high income keep soaring, through boom and bust, and our institutions are eroded. There is enormous wealth being created. But we, the 99%, are continually sold the lie that more austerity and less safety net for the poor is what's required.
Ahem.
I believe Karl Marx said something about "a better, more just society" when he was describing communism.
What Marx may have said is beside the point. Are you saying things are just fine, and the trend I describe is actually "fair"? Do you really think your government is serving -all- the people? That's the real question.
All I know is that the USSR started out as a good economic decision, then quickly turned into disaster when its citizens were harmed by the "equality" factor.
Yes, I agree with you that the US government is corrupt. But, no, I do not agree with you when you talk about a "better, more just society."
There is no way to create this Utopian society you speak of. Because if you reform America the way you want to, reform it so it resembles a Communist state, you are making all those citizens who are benefiting and approving of the capitalist nation we live in right now hate the system.
Oh, wait. Hang on. That sounds eerily similar to the situation we are in right now.
You can't please everyone. If you don't like America's ideals, go live in Cuba, where they still practice the art of "a better, more just society."
You seem to fail to grasp the fact tha tcapitalism operates on ever increasing production of goods and services. The problem some in this world have grasped already is that their is a finite amount of resources, and the free market capitalist model will eventually deplete ALL of these resources unless someone someday points to the fact that it will cause the system to "eat itself". You think these people are a bunch of clueless, whining cry-babies, but in truth they may be the people who will be credited someday with saving everyone's asses. I have seen alot of evidence in different things I have been following that actually OWS has some extemely bright and gifted thinkers who would like to see a shift in the course of the future. But it would take much greater foresight than many seem to possess who are writing these snarky negative comments. It would involve unwashing the brains of tons of people who would rather rely on past solutions to solve problems that humanity has never confronted before. Let's face, a large majority of people can't even acknowledge the diasasters we are facing yet. So it is impossible to talk to those people about solving any of them
So, in essence, you are against capitalism.
I am concerned that the capitalist form I see at present is going to deystroy this planet in the long run. I guess really if I were without conscience I could say it's not my problem because I will be dead before our water is completely owned by private companies, or their is perhaps no more fish in the ocean or any of the looming problems. But I have major concerns and I think it is time for very creative thought for a change.
it's not capitalism itself, it's the greed and corruption that ruined capitalism
Working to achieve something "better" does not make you a Communist. It simply means you are not mired in apathy or cynicism. And I am not talking about Utopia. If you agree that the U.S. government is corrupt, then what would you do to improve the situation? The people who threw sacks of tea in Boston harbour - were they communists? Were they dreaming of a pie in the sky Utopia? Or were they wanting to have a more just and fair government?
You support BIG government control over corporations and capitalism. The Tea Party (could be wrong) wants to do away with BIG government and bring back checks and balances and allow the market freedom to self regulate.
The colonists who staged the Boston Tea Party - if you remember - were backed up by intelligent and rational men who were carefully orchestrating the plan to break away from the British Empire.
Who's behind OWS again?
Sorry that this is a little hard for me to grasp - because remember, I don't even know what OWS's demands are.
OWS doesn't seem very rational to me. It just seems like a gathering place for uneducated radicals to congregate and share impossible plots for overthrowing the US government and "reforming the system".
If OWS was a little more generous in sharing a master list of demands and a group of rational leaders, maybe I would take them more seriously.
you can't see that this IS A COMMUNIST MOVEMENT. Anti-American fundamentals strewn with socialist ideals.
Good post. And good for you and your family. Keep up the good work. THIS is how progress is made. It is available to anyone willing to work. To the OWS: Don't Hate, work to Create.
Say that you own a store. Say that you are treating all the workers fairly and decently, giving them good wages, paying all health benefits, and even more. Say that it was all going good. Now say that WalMart decides to open up a nearby store. They sell products at cheaper prices, because they have found the means necessary to diminish wages, bust unions, pay much less benefits, etc. You still want to do good for your workers, but now you can't. You have to compete with WalMart, or else you will lose it all. Unfortunately, it is not about how hard you have worked to where you made it. It is about the fact that the current system we live in is designed such that improper incentives get higher priority, a system that rewards the greedy. If you are of the 1%, then you still can choose to join us. If you are of the 1%, then you have the money to pay for a lot of people's health care while still having money left over to live a comfortable life yourself. Maybe you may need not live in a big mansion, but live in a simple house like most other people. Maybe you need not have such an expensive car, and own a simple car or even use public transport like many other people. If you are such a person in the 1%, are you willing to do that? Are you really willing to say, yes, I ought to pay a good deal of my hard-earned money to support a federal tax system, so that health care can be awarded to all, and so that most, if not even all, people can live decent lives? And it could be true that such hard work ought to be shared by many others, such that we all only need to work at a comfortable pace.
No, I am not willing to say yes to your question.
Because although I am only 15 and the money I have is my parents' money, I know that someday, I will have followed their example and even better, so that I can not only provide for myself but also live in a big mansion and own an expensive car.
But I know that I will get to that point on my own and through my own hard work and determination.
And I will have played the game of capitalism.
Which, if you were smart, you would also play.
maybe you should think about what is really important in life...
Seriously? And what is your biggest dream in life, to graduate high school?
Maybe you are not the one that decides what I need?
Quite a communist manifesto. If this makes sense to you, what do you think would happen if such a person decided he/she is tired of working hard to provide for you. He/she stops working and joins you. Waiting for someone else to provide for them. So, eventually, no one works and no one provides. Does this make sense to you ?
Buddy, I think what you experienced is called capitalism.
Get used to it.
ows is getting just what it wants... disorder and anarchism.
The problem with OWS is that by having no leaders and no unified message, it was co-opted by anyone with an opinion. It is now being passed around as being socialist and communist, which is not at all how it began.
If you look at the source (Google Adbusters, Occupy Wall Street), it is obvious that the one message was to remove money and corruption from politics.
It's sad that something that had the potential to bring about such great change has caved in on itself. By having no leaders and message they have allowed for any nitwit to represent them as a whole, and of course those people are being exploited by the media.
Better luck next year, I guess.
No, that's not the obvious point. In fact nearly every OWS supporter I've talked to here on this forum has been so brainwashed about the banks!!! The banks!!M. The banks are the cause of all our woes! They won't even listen to a sane discussion about how our congress, wooed by money gave the big corporations everything they needed to do bad and get away with it. Congress should be the absolute number one issue here. Get lobby monies out. Institute term limits. Abolish retirement for congress member. Make bills be passed on their own merit, not by addendums prostituted out for votes. No private campaign funds, complete financial transparency, etc etc.
You have a lot to learn about democracy. You obviously have no idea what it really is about. It dosent matter if someone is a nitwit or an idiot. someone is only those things through someone elses perspective. to say that someones voice has no value based on someones opinion of someone else immediately puts both of those people at different levels. that is NOT democracy.
real democracy gives voice to ALL. Have you ever been to a general assembly? you should go it would be good for you. It is true democracy. anyone can speak, anyone can propose something to vote on.
I have. True democracy is incredibly inefficient and results in failure, like OWS.
I was a proud supporter and attended GAs daily, only to see those people with the loudest voices take them over. They carried messages of socialism and redistribution of wealth, which brought the movement to its knees.
Congratulations, you have let the people who fail to consider the consequences of their actions ruin a perfect opportunity.
Exactly. True democracy requires the cooperation of all citizens to participate, making it impossible for decisions to be passed quickly.
Given how many terrible decisions have been made quickly, maybe taking time to make decisions would be a good thing.
Tell me how taking time to decide what to do on such matters as natural disasters, declarations of war, uprisings, terrorist attacks, and other such emergencies is a good thing.
Let me also include bailouts (which I do not advocate), economic crises, and international defaults.
Maybe true democracy would work for long term policies.
But please, tell me how it could POSSIBLY work for short-term disasters.
Well, we rushed into Afghanistan to attack the Taliban, who had nothing to do with Al Queda.
We rushed to attack Iraq based on false evidence.
We rushed into the bailout by giving the Treasury Secretary absolute power, which he used in attempt to "increase liquidity" among banks so they would start lending, but they kept the money.
Only fools rush in. For short term disasters it's pretty simple, you set up an emergency relief team ahead of time, like FEMA. And it was a rash quick decision to defund them and hold them back during Katrina, remember?
This isn't the kind of country where everything has to be decided by some central body, you're thinking more of a monarchy. We can establish institutions in a democratic fashion to handle these things.
I don't deny that your examples against the government's current ability to deal with problems quickly are legitimate.
But let's think this through.
Let's conjure in our minds a picture of an average citizen of the United States of America. He (I'm a girl, love the feminist movement, but "he" has one less letter than "she" and is easier to type) is easy to sway, easy to persuade.
He is constantly on the Internet, always on Facebook and Twitter, always exposed to conflicting viewpoints. But he never really pays attention because he's just an average citizen.
But when something comes along that catches his eye, perhaps the OWS movement, he begins to "research" the topic. As he scrolls through Wikipedia and the OWS website, he starts to think, "Hey, these guys are right! I might be part of the 99% of the population, but I deserve more money too!" And then, he comes to the conclusion that OWS is correct and the current government is wrong.
All this information is from the Internet, mind you, because he's just an average citizen and doesn't have anymore time to research his decision. He has to go to work, pay the bills, socialize.
So when the time comes in the "true democratic" system you describe to vote, OWS or keep current government, he chooses OWS, because obviously Wikipedia and the OWS website held all the answers.
And the country becomes communist.
Think about that scenario. Think about what would happen in a true democracy.
Every citizen would vote, yes. But do you think every citizen is qualified to partake in deciding crucial aspects of our government?
Let's say we were in your "true democracy" system and we were voting on if everyone should drive a purple car or a red car.
Let's say I publish something on Facebook saying purple cars contain a poison in their paint that kills baby seals. Not true, but average American citizens wouldn't know that, because I would back up my claim with "scientific evidence" and "statistics".
Suddenly, everyone would vote to drive red cars. And all because of the power of the Internet.
Maybe the presidency and government make some bad decisions. But at least that's their job- to make decisions. They take it extremely seriously - while if we went to a "true democracy" system everyone, everyone who is already occupied with their daily dramas, would vote on something they didn't really take seriously because they quite frankly just didn't have the time.
Refute that.
Well, the problem here is that you can't get beyond the notion of instant snap decisions.
Normally the way things work, and the way things used to work until the Fairness Doctrine was repealed in 1987, is that there are public platforms available for multiple viewpoints.
People debate each other, people write editorials to their newspapers, people present facts, and there is time to think about decisions. But without a public forum of communication, then proper decisions are not possible.
Unfortunately, today the mainstream media is completely owned by corporate interests with an axe to grind. GE owns NBC, Time Warner owns CNN, NewsCorp owns FOX, Viacom owns CBS, and Disney owns ABC. To further complicate things, the media is entirely funded by other companies who pay for advertising. There's a reason why there's 10 ads about some prescription drug or another, but no shows about the impact of these pills on people's long term health.
Your view is that people are so bad at making decisions that they shouldn't even be involved in the decision making process at all. This position is essentially that of a kingdom.
If you don't feel that people deserve a voice in their own government, then don't ask people to pay for it. Simple as that. No taxation without representation.
The current form of government is in no way, shape, or form like a monarchy.
When I talk about the ability to control the country in the hands of the average people, I'm talking about the "true democracy" you're talking about.
I am all for the power of the people. Most 15 year olds dream of getting their license. I dream about registering to vote.
I think that the average people of the US, the people who have enough to worry about besides putting the fate of the nation in their hands, should only have to make own decision: one choice that would reflect all of the choices they would make had they the chance to vote directly on every issue.
I believe that this system works.
It's the corruption that stops it up.
But that is a different matter. I still believe wholeheartedly in this democratic republic we have instated.
What do you call a republic when the representatives don't represent?
I call that mistakes by the people in electing representatives with other motives.
You might also want to think about the extreme pressures and difficulties that come with being in public office before slandering all of politics.
Not all politicians are bad, you know.
not bad all, just entrenched, influenced by money
So are you going to tell me George Washington wasn't a good president? Or FDR? How about Lincoln?
What public forums exist for people to get the information they need to base their decisions on?
To be more specific, consider the office of President. The debates are hosted by a private company, the Commission on Presidential Debates. They choose who can participate, what questions are asked, and who gets arrested for trying to show up.
And the basest elements have risen to the top.
It's actually shaken my faith in the idea of direct democracy, which I was a huge supporter of. But if "this is what direct democracy looks like," I think we need some checks and balances here.
So wrong headed. And fast becoming wrong hearted too.
Adbusters has a much wider agenda than simply removing money and corruption from politics. It is a clearinghouse for the most explosive ideas of the extreme Left.
In June, even as OWS was in the planning stages, Asbusters published an essay in issue #95 by Pentti Linkola, an eco-radical who calls for genocide of 90% of the world population, which asked, "Who misses Hitler's 6 million Jews?" Don't believe me. Go find it. I wish I could link it, but although they do have it in the table of contents here http://www.adbusters.org/cultureshop/backissues/95, it is not up on the site. If you must read it, a longer version of the same essay that laments that modern warfare does not kill "truly significant shares of fertile females" is here: http://www.angelfire.com/zine/thefallofbecause/articles/humanflood.html.
You simply couldn't make this stuff up. As bad as the political situation is, as entrenched and untouchable as the banksters seem, OWS manages to encompass ideologies that are SO much worse. Better luck next year? God I hope so.
Just because the idea began on Adbusters does not lessen the meaning at all...
There are no anti-Semitic undertones in "getting the money out of politics".
Attacking Adbusters is a matter in itself, and does not pertain to what I said at all.
Laffingrass, I am becoming a broken record on this one, but I have to ask…if the point is to "get the money out of politics" why not craft a strategy involving campaign reform? Why not send all this creative and passionate energy to Washington and state capitols? Make sure people are registered and informed for the 2012 election? How about…inviting candidates to an OWS sponsored debate? I'll bet some would take up this offer. I am so frustrated by Occupy's squandering of its media buzz. The whole world is watching…what?
Actually, I don't think that essay was anti-Semitic. It was anti-human. The author doesn't "miss" the 6 million because he hates humanity in general, not just Jews. Like it or not, ideas like these are prevalent in OWS circles.
Ask around in OWS circles about how many people should be allowed to exist. Ask what measures should be taken to control population. I have. The answers will turn your stomach, ranging from forced abortion schemes and eugenics to genocide. Don't believe me. Ask around.
The fact that a magazine that ran that piece was able to gather this crowd together should be an indication that at the very least, they are not as repulsed by the ideas in it as I am. If an extreme Right magazine that recently called for extermination of Jews called for rallies against Wall Street greed and corruption would you join?
I wouldn't. I would wait until one without such questionable origins was called for. If I found out after the fact, that the movement I called for was founded by Nazis, I would want to ask around, understand the true goals of the movement, and if I remained, condemn and divorce myself completely from the Nazi elements. In the case of this movement those elements are Adbusters and the extreme Left.
I think they just want to close down a port and if we let them do it they'll be satisfied and leave everyone alone.
Closing down a port = no trade.
No trade = little economic activity.
Little economic activity = businesses get hurt.
Businesses get hurt = people lose money and jobs.
People lose money and jobs = more stupid and irrational decisions such as closing down some more ports.
And thus, the cycle repeats itself.
I hope you fall in the water - go to dc that is where the action is
Bloody hippies. It's boring now. Just go home.
THE OWS ARE REALLY SOCIALISTS & COMMUNISTS. Like the saying goes, for every action there is a re-action. BEWARE!!!!! there are private armies being formed of American Citizens to force the OWS out of business and out of American. if you think what the police are doing is wrong in order to break up your illegal actives? Wait until the True American Citizen Armies across America confront the OWS with weapons.
Dear Pearlsnap, What you are saying is that there are Armies of Americans with weapons ready to kill other Americans? You are a Nazi fascist! I am the 99%
Destroy jobs, occupy everything
We oughtta start doing things like dropping firebombs into banks during the overnight hours or doing the same to warehouses and distributions centers. Make the corporations REALLY start to notice us...
Nonviolent protest holds up a mirror to the perpetrator and the world. Don't fall into this trap.
really bad idea
You think these people would learn from all the anger from the 99% who work and were inconvenienced by OWS in NYC the other day, but nooooo. Way to shoot your whole message down in flames, you bunch of morons. Meanwhile the politicians and the elite 1% (often one and the same) are not even slightly put out by your idiocy, but rather find it a source of amusement that the self-claimed 99% can continued to thrash and rage against themselves.
Occupy. Porkupie. Porcupine. UDivine. Meevil. Boll Weevil. Sweet Devil. Let's get together. Word Salad. Newman's Best. Best dressed. all the rest. Eat my shorts. You are a dork.
And disrupt Christmas for the rest of the 99%? You no longer support your precious 99%! Get your heads out of the sand and look at who you really affect!
thanks for the insight, fox news...i want 5 xbox's and a snuggie, i still hope i get it!
I am all for them shutting down and blowing up the port. When they do then their approval rating will further drop as the port burns. Go ahead blow that fucking port up I dare you.
FBI!!!!! Homeland Security!!! Time toigate hotrod and Ows! BRI!!! Pleaase!!! Homeland Security!!!
Time to investigate hotrod02!