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Forum Post: Fellow Occupy supporters - IF WE CAN ANSWER THIS QUESTION, then the power & influence of Occupy will increase exponentially

Posted 1 year ago on Nov. 24, 2012, 10:33 a.m. EST by therising (6643)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

One of the most common critiques of Occupy by supporters and critics alike is the suggestion that the movement should shift or sharpen its focus. Somewhere within each of these well meaning critiques there is always the phrase "Occupy ought to. . ."

I'm sure I've written the words myself many a time. But now I'm convinced that such a perspective ignores one cruicial fact: Occupy is a leaderless movement. I'm not speaking in lofty terms here. This is just practical knowledge that we all will eventually have to understand and remember.

To see why this matters, it's useful to recognize a second practical truth about Occupy: It is also a "leaderful" movement as someone once put it. In that sense, we are all leaders. So if we want to shift or concentrate the focus, we literally have to do it ourselves. We have to make the case, bring others on board within the movement and bring new people in from the outside to help push. I suppose that support would come from initiating small or large public actions. These serve the dual purpose of advocating for a specific change and attracting potential supporters. Such actions could include writings, demonstrations, nonviolent protests, walk outs, sit ins, mic checks, picketing, occupations, public actions, street theater, strikes, blockades, boycotts, etc etc etc etc. Such efforts don't just offer resistance. They also have the added benefit of serving as a sort of "bat signal" for other like minded people to join in.

Bottom line, I think the movement's success or failure will depend largely upon supporters' ability to capture the imagination of the general public with a message that resonates with them on a deep level and energizes them to not just support the movement in polls but also come out into the street and talk to their neighbors and participate in actions of all kinds. THAT'S what I'm interested in. I want people to feel the energy in their bones and be drawn to something they've known all along deep down.

This is a decade long battle (maybe longer) to remove the gauze of propaganda and consumerism from our eyes and then take part in countless forms of nonviolent protest and direct action to unseat the corporate forces that have hijacked our republic.

The founders, despite their flaws built a damn good system and there's no way we're going to allow corporatists to squander the future of our children and grandchildren, our environment and our great nation. No fucking way. The genie is out of the bottle and there is nothing so powerful as an idea whose time has come.

So don't fall into the trap of arguing about what Occupy should do. **** The question is, what should you do? Which cause or action should you support or begin? In the end, that is the truly revolutionary question to ask. If we develop the habit of asking that question, then the power and influence of the Occupy movement will increase exponentially.

I think there will always be different focus by different groups of people within the Occupy movement and that that is very healthy. I'd personally like to see the focus on these 8 goals http://www.occupywallst.org/forum/you-may-have-seen-this-list-of-8-practical-goals-b/ because they might help stop the bleeding long enough to give us the time and space to focus on even more fundamental and important issues.

But others might feel that environmental issues like global warming, XL pipeline or fracking are even more important in terms of urgency and should be at the head of the line. Others within the movement might say labor issues are most vital at this time. The list goes on and on and I continue to hear people frustrated that the Occupy movement doesn't somehow magically focus on only one thing.

I think the solution to the "focus" issue (one that I've wrestled with as well) is to concentrate on growing the numbers of Occupy supporters rather than attempting to change the focus of existing supporters. If you think about it, you know that there are dozens, hundreds or thousands of people who identify with OWS who share your interest in any number of issues. The thing many lament, I think, is that each of us would like to have 10 times the amount, 100 times the amount of pushing on our particular items of interest.

I don't think we'll achieve that by trying to sway more people in the existing group to refocus. Instead, we just need to help bring more people to our particular part of the overall Occupy reservation from OUTSIDE the existing group of OWS supporters. In some sense, there IS no "they" in "they ought to focus Occupy on x or y". We are they. Not only is there not one captain at the helm of the Occupy ship, there also isn't just one ship. It's a FLEET of ships with serious power. It's an armada.

In the end, Occupy is an IDEA. And it's not just ANY idea, it's a revelation with revolutionary implications. And the idea has something to do with this: We are the 99%. We've felt powerless for too long. We've been divided (intentionally by outside forces and by our own weaknesses) for far too long. Once we realize that we are the 99%, the 1% of the population where power and wealth have been recently concentrated can no longer rule over us. Once we realize we are the 99%, we can begin to make decisions from a position of unified power rather than making demands from a position of divided weakness.

After a lot of thought on this, I have arrived at the conclusion that we shouldn't lament that there is a wide variety of issues that people within the larger Occupy movement are passionate about. Indeed, the great idea of Occupy as described above has the power to energize all the important efforts that we as a group hold dear. We are stronger and more agile as a fleet of big and small ships than we would be if we were one giant tanker.

There is no they. There is only we. If you think there's something the Occupy movement ought to be doing, check to see who's working on it already and join in. If no one is on it yet, start the effort yourself and invite others to join in. Whatever you are dreaming of "begin it now" as Goethe said. "Boldness has genius and power."

A NOTE ABOUT THE POLITICAL FRONT:

I honestly think the work needs to be done on both fronts (inside via political activity and outside via direct action/boycotts/sit ins, strikes, writings, etc. etc. etc.). I suppose one could debate whether significant portion of Occupy supporters / participants are willing or capable of fighting on the political front.....but I think most of those who resist political involvement themselves would still be more than pleased if groups of people pushed like hell from the inside politically while Occupy is pushing like hell from the outside.

I applaud the effort of those who are pushing like hell from the inside because they are "holding our democratic system to its word." If those who push politically achieve real results, great! If they don't, their effort is not in vain. It would then provide even more evidence that our system is broken and no one who represents the interests of the current power structure will be able to say "Oh, if you'd worked within the system, your needs would have been addressed." I think the political front is very important and that such action does not imply one is limiting one's self to working only in that realm.

If you are one of those working on the political front, I hope your are able to attract people who identify with Occupy and others as well to your plan of action and that you and you and your "subgroup" are able to push effectively. Know that others will be pushing hard from the outside as well.

Each type of pressure benefits the other's cause in the same way that those civil rights activists who supported Martin King, Jr.'s vision gained negotiating leverage from the existence of groups like those led by Malcolm X. I think some of the failures of the civil rights movement also helped Malcolm X and others like him make a case for working outside the system. I'm not in any way advocating violence of any kind. I am adamant about our movement remaining nonviolent in every way. Clearly working outside the political system does not require violence. It only requires the will to engage in nonviolent direct action.

Those who think that Occupy should recognize the potential power of the political realm to effect real change would probably argue that the political effort is one of the ships in the Occupy armada. That doesn't require those who eschew politics to be involved. And it certainly shouldn't push them away from Occupy. I think there's room for both points of view within Occupy and that they are complimentary rather than antagonistic.

140 Comments

140 Comments


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[-] 6 points by beautifulworld (20943) 1 year ago

Nice post, therising. Unfortunately, lately, I've noticed some of our fellow forum contributors trying to push people to stop talking about this or that, and see things their way. Big mistake. Everyone in this movement has something to contribute. And, I agree, Occupy is an idea, first and foremost.

[-] 3 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

Thanks very much for your reply and encouragement. I'm all about us doing what works and achieving real results.

[-] 2 points by bullfrogma (448) 1 year ago

Please please consider this. We are a fleet of ships shooting at completely random parts of the Death Stars various armor. The subversion that appears on this forum is designed to confuse and suppress this very thing, our uniting a mass understanding and the peaceful, ultimate weapon that creates.

This is what they fear because it's the only thing that can stop them. If we could concentrate our fire like a laser it would perform surgery.

I don't know. I just think a lot more effort could be put into showing the mass what our situation is. We're saying the same thing really, "Once we realize we are the 99%" requires the 99%.

[-] 3 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

We absolutely should grow numbers. Using your metaphor, each powerful ship within the fleet should have a powerful concentrated laser just as you suggest. There is a portion of the folks who identify with occupy who are absolutely focused on stopping fracking. We need to grow their numbers. You're not going to get those folks to work on Citizens United or getting corporate money out of politics -- because they're justifiably focused on the one thing they are passionate about: stopping fracking. They'll ask you, how can any of us move forward if our water is poisoned? And they're right! Don't insist they shift focus. Encourage them and thank them and help send more people their way when you can.

Same goes for people committed to campaign finance reform. And those committed to bringing Wall St. criminals to justice. And those committed to ending corporate personhood.

People that get involved in these more focused activities are there because they feel a strong personal connection to the issue. They're not going to shift.

What we need to do is grow the power of each of these ships by adding people from the outside, not by trying to pull people off one ship and put them on another.

[-] 2 points by bullfrogma (448) 1 year ago

Hey. I'm not saying to pull people off their ships. Nobody has to get off their ship to be connected with something like unification. We're all playing footsy with the millipede of doom but there's just not much effectiveness going for the head. The thing will only grow new feet.

Imagine a website that everyone could resort to, like a lense for that laser. Making these anti-corruption amendments actually happen. We need the mass to understand what's going on and for that you need a better organisation, strategy and marketing.

I like the symbol occupy uses but it might terrorfy some old lady and some people who consider themselves rational won't take it seriously. There's a reason pretty much every company uses the most generic shapes for their logo. You have to be elevator music, and also no joke.

This monopoly is trying to control life in ways that are destroying us. There has never been anything to qualify so much as an emergency for the sake of humanity. I'm begging occupy to start something that can really unite people.

And to be clear these are just ideas.

[-] 3 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

There is no they. There is only us. Whatever you are dreaming of "begin it now" (as Goethe would say. "Boldness has genius and power."

[-] 1 points by bullfrogma (448) 1 year ago

Aye, there is only us. That struck me as beautiful when you said it. For some reason it reminded me of Armstrong singing What A Wonderful World, the greatest song ever. Sorry to ramble, the song is stuck in my head now.

"I hear babies cry...... I watch them grow"

"They'll learn much more.....than I'll never know"

"And I think to myself .....what a wonderful world"

[-] 2 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

Great song

[-] 2 points by JesseHeffran (3903) 1 year ago

You have to be one of the most positive people on this forum, and I wish you the best. Keep it up and have a good morning.

[-] 4 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

I edited above post for clarity. If you get a chance, please read and see if this makes more sense now.

[-] 1 points by JesseHeffran (3903) 1 year ago

It makes real sense. I like the fact that it does not discourage any form of action and encourages new forms. Good write up!

[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

I think the more people and groups that come at it from different angles the better.

[-] 2 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

Thanks for the encouragement. All the best to you as well.

[-] -1 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 1 year ago

I find it ironic that four days after you posted this comment, you pushed me to stop criticism of Occupy, to the point of telling me, "You don't belong here."

[-] 3 points by beautifulworld (20943) 1 year ago

You are just surly techjunkie. I then said you were right and to stick around. And, when I made that comment I was talking about Occupiers not people who are against the movement, actually.

[-] -3 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 1 year ago

Oh, so I have to pledge allegiance before I'm allowed to provide constructive criticism? Blind loyalty is a prerequisite?

What's happened to Occupy seems to me to be a little similar to what happened to Christianity over centuries. A movement that was originally all about tolerance and acceptance and diversity became insular and intolerant. Which makes the whole thing kind of pointless. Occupy used to be obsessed with the inclusion of marginalized voices, but now the Occupiers here are more concerned with marginalizing dissent.

[-] 3 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

"Constructive criticism" you said? Do you really define what you said above as constructive? I am asking an honest question here.

[-] -1 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 1 year ago

Yes, I see pointing out that Occupy has strayed from the original ideal of inclusion and non-partisanship as constructive criticism. Your interpretation may vary, obviously.

[-] 2 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

How exactly do you define Occupy? Who specifically are you suggesting speaks for Occupy? Where are you getting your information from?

[-] -1 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 1 year ago

I've been here for 14 months and I'm aware that Occupy theoretically has no hierarchy or leadership. Which means that the people who participate speak for Occupy. And what those people have been saying is that "Repelicans" are the problem, not the 1% or political corruption. This web site has become a "RepubliCon"-hating clique. Just scan the post headlines on the forum page:

"The “Both-sides-are-awful” Dismissal of the two-party system Ignores the Key Role of the Republican Party."

"The GOPs Surrender Document"

"You see it Here: GOP-REJECTION Denial"

[-] 2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

Republicans proudly push the agenda of the 1% plutocrats. Just look at the current tax battle, and the positions on greentech, etc.

Dems fail profoundly when they cave (always some) in to support those pro 1% conservative policies. But their agenda is pro 99%. Dems (especially the progressive caucus (no repubs)) are the only ones fighting for any change (inadequate as it is) that benefits the 99%.

I urge us to pressure all pols for change that benefits the 99%. I propose we make an extra effort to pressure dems to grow a spine, & stand up to those right wing extremists who have hijacked the repub party and proudly push the pro 1% conservative policies.

We must identify all anti 99% pols, replace them with pro 99% pols and take our govt back from the 1% oligarchs.

That's what the Posts you identified are speaking to. You don't agree because you aren't a supporter of change that benefits the 99%. You proudly push the pro 1% conservative policies that created all our problems.

Right?

[-] 2 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

Well said

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

I try. It had to be said. And I felt it was my civic duty to clarify the matter for him. He sounded so confused.

;)

[-] 2 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

More and more I'm seeing the benefit that can come from pushing from both the inside and the outside. I'm glad people like you are here making the clear case for how powerful the political realm could be some in the movement engaged strategically. I don't think that precludes them or others from also pushing from the outside. Martin King and his supports might not have gotten as far with civil rights effort if Malcolm X and others weren't pushing like hell from the outside.

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

Thanks, I appreciate your efforts as well. And in fact we NEED the outside push. Pres Obama needs the outside push, He claims he is gonna use the outside push, as he started in Philly this past week.

FDR needed A Phillip Randolph & the unions., JFK/LBJ needed MLK & even Malcolm X.

It's the American way.

[-] 0 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

With all that pushing, some chaos can result. And I feel it can be a good kind of chaos. Because while the cloud of dust is up in the air, momentum can move the ball quite a bit down the field. And at some point, a large portion of Americans value order so much that they'll do just about anything to end the so called chaos. . . . Even it means changing some very fundamentall aspects of life. Those who are revolutionaries can play to that desire for order because it can bring a NEW order.

It sounds like a lot of work, but it's worth it. After all, in the words of CSN, "What have we got to lose?"

[-] 2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

Yeah, I can see that. Some chaos is ok, i encourage taking advantage of all opportunities.

We'll need it. We may not prefer chaos but...."if you can't be with the one you love, Love the one you're with" csn

;)

[-] -1 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 1 year ago

No, not right. The only vision of progress that you can imagine is for conservatives to accept liberal ideology. That's not the same as both sides working together.

We already had this conversation, BTW. It went on for days.

[-] 2 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

But the truth isn't always half way between two points. You might just be completely wrong man. Have you ever considered that? Wrong, as in, totally missed the bus. Take a step back and just think about that possibility.

[-] 2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

We MUST work together to help the 99%. I agree.

What "liberal ideology" are you suggesting I ask conservatives to accept.?

[-] -1 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 1 year ago

You and I have already spent days having this conversation, but you don't remember any of it. Why should I waste my Saturday on talking to a leftist zealot if he's not even going to remember any of it a week later?

Both the left and the right think that their ideas are the way to make progress. But your vision of progress is for everybody to accept that conservatives are on the side of the 1% and for conservatives to repent. You wouldn't appreciate a conservative trying to "work together" with you for the betterment of the entire country by opposing trillion-dollar federal budget deficits. If they expect you to renounce Keynesian economics as a precondition to "working together" then that's not really "working together", is it?

[-] 2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

The deficit/debt fear mongering is just part of the decades old conservative strategy of exploding the debt (dem admins cut deficit, repub admins increase deficit) and then screaming that the sky will fall if we don't cut the programs of the 99%.

Conservatives devised that strategy of "starve the beast" 30 years ago.

But I think we can agree that we should cut the deficit, by raising taxes on the wealthy, cutting the military, and generating economic growth.

How's that. Can we work together on that?

You think personal attacks against me ("leftist zealot") is the best way to work together.?

[-] -1 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 1 year ago

Bzzzt, try again, we have had trillion-dollar budgets for the last four years and the defense budget has increased. And you tripped over ideology again by proposing tax increases and economic growth in the same breath, which the left believes in but the right feels are contradictory. A leftist might agree with Obama that increasing taxes and growing the public sector is the same thing as "economic growth", but a conservative does not. You expect me to agree with your ideology as a precondition to "working together".

You remind me of an Israeli Zionist, insisting that 100% of the blame for all violence in Gaza lies with the Palestinians. Saying that Democrats cut deficits, after four years of trillion-dollar deficits. You'll just say, "those deficits are high because of what the previous administration did."

[-] 3 points by gsw (2693) 1 year ago

Congress has been controlled by republicans in the house, who hold the purse, so as vq says, the repubs have made deficit very big. We are against that, by the way.

I wish they would work together. One side has compromised the other not and not willing to. So what can be done?

[-] 2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

And you know the last admin took the 3 years of dem (Clinton) surpluses and left Pres Obama with a $1.4T deficit, Pres cut the deficit to an est $900b for the 2013 budget year. Pres Obama would have cut it more if obstructionist traitorous repubs hadn't blocked all jobs bills and recovery strengthening proposals.

Raising taxes on the wealthy will not hurt growth, even Repub Bill Krostol understands economics enough to support it.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/11/bill-kristol-taxes-millionaires_n_2113671.html

Just open your mind to fairness, forget your ideological indocrination.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/08/taxes-on-the-rich_n_2094592.html

Warren buffet does not think it will deter investment.

http://finance.yahoo.com/blogs/daily-ticker/why-warren-buffett-raising-taxes-rich-144852573.html

More evidence that raising wealthy taxes HELPS the economy.

http://pewresearch.org/pubs/2309/taxes-obama-romney-raising-rich-help-economy-$250000-democrats-republicans-independents-hike-fairness

In any event I support cutting spending (military, corp welfare, all fraud, waste, & abuse) Isupport cutting taxes (working class/small business only). AndI support investing in private job creation to grow the economy. I believe these are conservativeacceptable positions.

Are you with us?

[-] 2 points by bensdad (8977) 1 year ago

If we look at the last election, what moved the most people? .
Where were the biggest hammers?
I see the answer as something OWS can easily do
PUBLICIZE THE CRAP
consider the 47% video & Aiken's insanity & Murdoch's insanity
we need to be ready to infiltrate & video and deliver the truth
oh yes - and one minor detail - OWS must acknowledge the elections & political power is the answer

[-] 3 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

A good percentage of the country now carried video camera in their pockets. One would think this would lead to more transparency and therefore greater awakening of the American people. I'd love for the outrageous stuff to continually be exposed so we Americans are jolted awake and rise from our sofas.

[-] 2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

Dems fighting the fear mongerers indef detention. Please sign.

http://occupywallst.org/forum/support-mark-udalls-aendment-to-end-indef-detentio/

[-] 2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

You have the right idea. We need an inside game and an outside game. We should embrace of any political persuasion if they support the goals that benefit the 99%. And we should accept all non violent tactics.

Solidarity

[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

I think that's the spirit that has taken the movement beyond most people's wildest expectations and will continue to do so.

[-] 2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

Onward!

[-] 2 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

And upward!

[-] 2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

very good! . upward indeed

[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

Bottom line, I think the movement's success or failure will depend largely upon supporters' ability to capture the imagination of the general public with a message that resonates with them on a deep level and energizes them to not just support the movement in polls but also come out into the street and talk to their neighbors and participate in actions of all kinds. THAT'S what I'm interested in. I want people to feel the energy in their bones and be drawn to something they've known all along deep down.

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

Undoubtedly! Too many people are comfortable enough to not make the effort of protesting. Another big segment is so hypnotized by the sports/entertainment/consumerist escapist structure of our society.

Great challenges face us in exciting these groups of Americans.

Years of hard work, slow progress,and setbacks is what we should expect.

[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

Exactly. That is exactly the mindset we need. This is a decade long battle (maybe longer) to remove the gauze of propaganda and consumerism from our eyes and then take part in countless forms of nonviolent protest and direct action to unseat the corporate forces that have hijacked our republic. The founders, despite their flaws built a damn good system and there's no way we're going to allow corporatists to squander the future of our children and grandchildren, our environment and our great nation. No fucking way.

The genie is out of the bottle and there is nothing so powerful as an idea whose time has come.

[-] 2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

YES!!!! We have only just begun. Strikes at Walmart? Small but unprecedented! Fastfood worker walkout today? unheard of! These actions will grow. And the people will be heard and the PTB will have submit!

The power of the people is vastly greater than the people in power!

[-] 2 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

It will be a joy for each of us to play his or her small role in powering this long ever growing virtual cycle.

And it will be a pleasure to watch the propagandists whose job it is to protect the current unjust power structure eventually succumb to the truth and join in our effort.

Soon we'll be making decisions from a position of unified strength rather than making demands from a position of divided weakness. This is truly a revolution and we are privileged to live in these times.

[-] 2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

It is really amazing. Your optimism is infectious

[-] 2 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

This movement can spin into a virtuous cycle if we all paddle hard.

[-] 2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

I'm paddlin boss. We're gonna get there.

[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

"Energy and persistence conquer all." ~ Benjamin Franklin

"Oh what a new day". ~. Bob Marley

"The moral arc of the universe bends towards justice.". ~. Martin Luther King, Jr.

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

"all you need is love" JL

;)

[-] 2 points by bensdad (8977) 1 year ago

bingo! I have been working on the Amendment issue for over a year in a NYC OWS WG.
My point has always been that you can't get anything big done ( such as stopping fracking ) without the right people in congress who would vote to end fracking or end lobbying or close Gitmo or cut the military.


Honestly, I have failed to sell this to many people for over a year. My point - contrary to the apoliticals & anarchists - that real political power IS political power - has been learned by the tea potty - but not by us.


I believe that we have lost such a huge percentage of people because of three things:
leaderlessness
consensus process
no political power yields few results


while there are many goals that are worth working for, an amendment to overturn CU is the foundation of virtually everything
while there are many goals that are worth working for, an amendment to overturn CU requires different people in congress
while there are many goals that are worth working for, an amendment to overturn CU requires different people in congress and OWS needs to GROW - not shrink


does anyone agree or disagree?
any ideas how we can rebuild?

[-] 2 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

I applaud your effort and urge you to not give up. I'm not really sure how to get any of the things on my wish list ( http://www.occupywallst.org/forum/you-may-have-seen-this-list-of-8-practical-goals-b/ ) completely done, but I'm paddling like hell where I can and communicating with as many like minded people as possible. I admire your tenacity. Future generations will owe people like you and all the other committed OWS supporters a great debt.

[-] 2 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

I honestly think the work needs to be done on both fronts. I suppose one could debate whether significant portion of Occupy supporters / participants are silling or capable of fighting on the political front.....but I think most of those who resist political involvement themselves would still be more than pleased if groups of people pushed like hell from the inside politically while Occupy is pushing like hell from the outside.

I applaud your effort and think it is very important. I hope your are able to attract people who identify with Occupy and others as well to your plan of action and that you and you and this group are able to push effectively.

Those that sympathize with your viewpoint that Occupy should recognize the potential power of the political realm to effect real change would probably argue that the political effort is one of the ships in the Occupy armada. That doesn't require those who eschew politics to be involved. And it certainly shouldn't push them away from Occupy. I think there's room for both points of view within Occupy and that they are complimentary rather than antagonistic.

[-] 2 points by bullfrogma (448) 1 year ago

Help me understand this, http://represent.us/

If they get 1,000,000 citizen co-signers can they really do what they're claiming can be done? Can citizen co-signing really work in that sketchy way they have it set up?

I couldn't agree more that occupy needs to grow. Uniting people with an understanding of our situation is the only way to demand response. This is why the people in power manipulate with deception. It's all about understanding, and this is war.

[-] 2 points by bensdad (8977) 1 year ago

I just had a 3 hour meeting last nite on this exact document
what follows is the opinion of virtually all of our NYC OWS WG


every minute spent on this, is a minute NOT spent on the fundamental issue
citizens united-corporate personhood-money is not speech


Much of this is to get around NOT having an amendment
This is not a quick patch to impliment because an amendment is hard to do - they are expecting to work on this for FOUR years!


many sections conflict with citizens united - so they are meaningless


the $100 voucher may seem like a good concept - IF THE VOTER can understand it
It is too complicated to get MY support


I get the impression that this is primarily republican attempt to approach this issue like move to amend has


note that one of the advisors is GWB's ethics chief


The absolute bottom line here is not signatures, it is getting people elected to congress who will support us


Briefly - MY IDEAL ( Amendment + Legislation )
A: all created non-humans have no constitutional rights
A: money is not speech
A: citizens united is overturned
L: all political contributions [ with some limit ] must go directly from voter to candidate
L: all candidates must disclose where they get the money and where they spend it.


Of course, my BRIEF ideal needs more details


Our NYC OWS working group is here with 70 videos from people like Chomsky & Sanders & Warren & Reich +
40 documents that cover CU & CP & the Amendment issue VERY thoroughly


http://corporationsarenotpeople.webuda.com


please let me know what you think of the data on the site

[-] 3 points by bullfrogma (448) 1 year ago

Nice. Word of warning, my internet connections in CA have not been able to connect to webuda. I have a few 000webhost accounts myself and while netai still works, my webuda one does not either.

You should probably get someone to fund some real hosting. 1Voice said he has servers in Canada, maybe he can work with you? I remember the website and it also needs some attractiveness done.

Represent.Us might be trying on purpose to waste time. I was wondering about that, another controlled fire of sorts. But if nothing else they're on the right track for making something the general public can look at and easily read.

I'm remembering my experience looking at your site as a virgin, and i have to be honest that without any attachment to it, it wasn't enough of a turn on to inspire me to actually explore it. It's not going to turn on most of the public either. Unfortunately data comes second to this.

Just some thoughts. I'm 100% in love with what you're doing.

[-] 2 points by bensdad (8977) 1 year ago

Thanks for the feedback. I'm very novice at developing a site, and I found the webuda sit full of simple tools. I (we) developed it primarily as a repository for the documents & videos. I'm not sure what I could add to make it more "inspirational". Any specific suggestions for change? I do not understand why just clicking the link would not work.

[-] 2 points by bullfrogma (448) 1 year ago

Does the website still work when you try connecting to it? It just spins for me and eventually times out, saying "internet explorer cannot display the webpage." It used to work, and like i said my own webuda address is doing the same thing.

If these amendments are going to turn things around then we should really be putting it through our laser. If occupy can make nice looking websites like this one then why on earth are they not helping you? If this is really a good plan than this is the website that every person should be pointing to.

You should have top notch writers to form statements, top notch artists to convey something simple, and an easy way for people to participate or understand how to, with a good, respectable domain name. Not only will it scare away a huge majority of people if it doesn't look 100% professional but it has to communicate with effortless perfection.

The only thing i can suggest is what you already know, don't let the controlled fires stop you.

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

Please support Amendment against Indefinite Detention.

http://occupywallst.org/forum/support-mark-udalls-aendment-to-end-indef-detentio/

[-] 2 points by bullfrogma (448) 1 year ago

One more thought. In most cases when people stumble upon a website they're not going to read everything or study it. All they're going to do is glance here and there. If something doesn't grab them in some artistic sense you're going to loose them. If it doesn't look professional they wont take it seriously, just like people at a grocery store don't take the can with a dent in it.

[-] 2 points by bullfrogma (448) 1 year ago

Another thing about websites. The things i'm seeing represent.us doing so well are this. A good combination between large font size and simplicity of statement make their information almost effortless to read. The color and mood of the pages are artistically attractive. The layout of the site isn't complicated and has very few paths. Also having "rebuild armerica" as an opening statement just hits people with something they want to hear, which inspires investigation.

[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

I think the solution may all come down to waking up enough people to the fact that our mistake of treating corporations as people. Have you seen this clip from film "The Corporation" on how corporations won "personhood status". http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8SuUzmqBewg . Fast-forward to 2:20. It'll blow your mind. The 14th amendment was supposed to give equal rights to African Americans. It said you "can't deprive a person of life, liberty or property without due process of law". Corporation lawyers wanted corporations to have more power so they basically said "corporations are people." Amazingly, between 1890 and 1910 there were 307 cases brought before the court under the 14th amendment. 288 of these brought by corporations and only 19 by African Americans. 600,000 people were killed to get rights for people and then judges applied those rights to capital and property while stripping them from people. It's time to set this straight.

[-] 1 points by JesseHeffran (3903) 1 year ago

I hear you about the documentary, "The Corporation." After seeing that flick, and looking at the history of the Supreme Court and judicial review, it just boggles my mind hearing people using the originalist argument. The Constitution has been changed so many times and been interpreted so many different ways that any originalist argument, in my opinion, is just used to give the new opinion credibility. History tells me that the Constitution, like Bibles and fairy tails, evolves with the times.

Do you believe that the 14th Amendment was created with corporations in mind, or do you believe the Amendment was exploited after the fact? I believe the latter. And that gives me both dread and hope.

[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

I agree it was after the fact. And I take heart from the fact that more and more people are spreading this word and waking up to the absurd level of control corporations have over our political system. Now we just need for people to realize there's something they can do about it.

[-] -1 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

All I can say to that is that the "Tea" people- they are not a party- got around 66 people into congress to stop the spending. Within one year, with the debt deal, over half of em voted for the biggest credit card ever seen.

They wouldnt vote for the one thing they promised, so slow spending.

Whether you agree with that is not my point. My point is that after their big victory in 2010, over half sold out immediately. Dems are no different. A politician is a politician.

I like Michael Moores site with the pledge to remove money from politics, similar to Grover's pledge, but for something logical. I think each occupy going to their local Dems and forcing them to sign it or be under constant protesting/pressure right outside their office is what needs to happen.

The "right" people will never be in congress if the general population continues to behave as they are. People need to be MAD. And Im not sure how to get that, except through education of what is really going on.

And I also believe in the strength of political power, like you.

[-] 2 points by Grey5Fox (9) 1 year ago

I agree to a good extent. But I'd say many of the issues are VERY interconnected and that most people don't realize it. Labor issues are connected to environmental issues. Race issues (which I don't see Occupy take up as much) has plenty to do with class issues. All of these things are intertwined, and the sad thing is most people don't even realize it.

Lets take hypothetical examples. If we can help heal the race issue (which is a SERIOUS problem all over the country), then by default that will help advance the class issue. This way poor and working whites will stop being racist and they'll want to cooperate with poor blacks stuck in the ghettos, and vice versa. If people can learn to identify with each other in class terms, worker unions will rise up again, and the lower/working classes will have a medium from where to become educated about what happens and cultured (which helps battle the consumerist culture that harms everyone). If that happens, the population would become more aware of the environment and they would want to protect it. Also they'd become aware of how the U.S. government (and any powerful state for that matter) tries to dominate and control the world at the expense of millions of innocent lives, etc. This all would produce a positive chain reactions where all these important issues get dealt with.

[-] 1 points by bensdad (8977) 1 year ago

You do pick one of the few issues that will not be helped with a constitutional amendment. Which, by comparison will be easier to solve.
Racisim and classism is taught by parents and religion is a nearly impossible cycle to break.
I cannot even imagine how people like MLK & RFK would regard our anti-minority anti-woman anti-gay ANTI-NOT-ME society.

[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

I hear you. It would be very interesting indeed to see what they had to say about our current state of affairs. But I think they also would identify with some of the spirit behind Occupy.

[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

I'm all for positive chain reactions and virtuous cycles. The trick is how do we help move things in that direction?

[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

This is a fantastic point. Thanks so much for raising it. Makes a lot of sense and also makes the case even stronger for joining together to wield our collective power, shining that strong light on various specific areas. Together the light is much brighter and it then benefits each of what we think of as "our" specific causes. But you're totally right. They are very interrelated. PS - I too would like to see the issue of race (which has been and continues to be a huge factor in America) come to the forefront more in the movement.

[-] 2 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 1 year ago

Because Occupy doesn't focus on the core issue of corporate and government collusion is the very reason it alienates many would be supporters. If we want more support we need to focus. And without that support we will remain powerless.

[-] 2 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

I just don't think it works the way you're assuming it does. There isn't any vertical hierarchy with someone making decisions at the top about what the movement will focus on. The people who identify with Occupy movement literally are the decision makers.

[-] 2 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 1 year ago

What if an army was organized like Occupy. There would be no general, each soldier would individually pick his own method and time to attack, even choosing armies who weren't in the fight.

The opposition army would be coordinated by a group of generals, colonels, and sergeants, positioning the troops to be ready for any attack. But the attackers (Occupy) come at different times, and in small numbers as most are off fighting other battles with other armies. The few who actually reach the front lines are small in number and are quickly defeated.

That's pretty much what happened over the last year.

[-] 2 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

I edited above post for clarity. If you get a chance, please read and see if this makes more sense now.

[-] 2 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

That's not quite the way I see it. That's the mass media perspective. But I think last fall was the beginning of something huge that continues today. Beyond the massive amount of protests / actions and resulting public awakening by a portion of the population, think of the hundreds, thousands, tens of thousands of people who linked up and are still linked.

Anyway, I think you misunderstand how Occupy works if you're suggesting "they" focus on one thing or another. There is no they. There is only we. I know that's hard to swallow. And you may not like it but that's the way it is. And that why it still persists today and will continue to do so. If anyone thinks all that angst, all those connections and all that knowledge is just going to go away, I believe they're sadly mistaken. No matter how much the main stream press attempts to diminish what has happened in the last 15 months and what continues to happen, this is HUGE and historic.

PS - Have you ever seen the film Manufacturing Consent? I think it gets at some of the issues we're discussing here.

[-] 2 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 1 year ago

Did you notice the Presidential election results? 98.5% voted for the status quo. The same as in 2008.

We had as many as 40 people at our local protests in late 2011. One year later we were down to four. Our army literally deserted. They said we support you with their lips, but their actions did not.

What we need to do is understand every mistake so that we can adjust our strategy and make progress. Number one mistake. I don't think that a leaderless revolution can be successful. Can you name one that was?

I know all that angst is still burning out there, like a million scattered glowing embers. We just need to bring them all together on a carefully chosen issue. Exactly what that issue is, how to get the embers there in a concentrated force, and how to fan the embers once gathered are the key questions.

"Manufacturing Consent' is way too long for my slow connection. Thanks for the link though.

[-] 0 points by bullfrogma (448) 1 year ago

I'm having a conversation up above with therising that's pretty similar to this one here. What if the leader wasn't a person? What if the leader was a website that everyone could turn to and rely on? Something as user friendly and confident as google is, that the mass could get a firm grip on. Something to organise and coordinate the problems and solutions which have become so understandable. Not a leader, just a conduit.

[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

I edited above post for clarity. If you get a chance, please read and see if this makes more sense now.

[-] 1 points by bullfrogma (448) 1 year ago

Aye, that's good. I like it. Almost everybody wants somebody to save them. Just like we are addicted to our comforts (that addiction "they" take advantage of). Somebody doesn't have to do something, we have to do something.

I'm also thinking too that the most important thing now is to show the mass what's happening and to give them something they can do about it. From what i understand about the combination of marketing and the mentallity we have mostly been conditioned with, that goal is going to take the most effective deployment, simple, easy, and consistent, persistent.

Random thought about what jrhirsch says right here. I think this forum would be a lot better with just a few catagories to post in. Keep the 90% off topic randomness in the popularity contest threads and have something specifically for talking about problem solving. Trolls trying to bury an issue in clutter actually hurts, but trolls trying to poke holes in an idea actually helps.

[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

That sounds reasonable but I am not sure if there's a downside of compartmentalization where people don't routinely see anything other than stuff that fits their own worldview. The skeptic in me thinks we might get too entrenched with groupthink if we compartmentalized forum.

[-] 1 points by bullfrogma (448) 1 year ago

I thought about that too. Actually i thought about it in the sense that people would stick to their favorite corner and not be exposed to other conversations. Travel broadens the mind. Or maybe that's exactly the same thing you said.

But i feel like right now we need to make things as easy as possible or they're not going to amount to anything. When i first came to this forum all i saw was an utter mess of the mess of everything. I would have never come back if i wasn't trying to find something.

I like the mosh pit a lot, but holding a public space specifically to brain storm problem solving would boil down those specific results, and that is something we could really use. The only thing bad i could imagine happening is that it would be shut down for terrorism.

[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

What about the ability to vote up or down on posts as well as comments? Maybe that has its own downside.

It would be nice to keep a thread going and make it easier for veterans and newcomers to find what they're interested in and participate in it.

[-] 1 points by bullfrogma (448) 1 year ago

I don't like the comment vote system. It just creates a method for people to manipulate things. A comment with lots of votes will appear to be good advice even if it's not, and vice versa. I liked how http://anonnews.org/ did some of their forum. You don't even need to log in. It's entirely focused on freespeech, words for the sake of the words. There's a lot of ranting there.

[-] 2 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

Thanks for the suggestion. I'll check that out.

[-] 1 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 1 year ago

I think this website is a clear example of why real leadership is necessary. 90% of the conversation here is off topic and what little direction does filter through comes from the so called non leaders in Occupy who broadcast events nationally, but never discuss those events with the national audience in advance here.

If the civil rights marchers used the same strategy we do, they'd still be standing at the back of the bus.

[-] 2 points by bullfrogma (448) 1 year ago

Right, this is what i'm thinking. Not a forum, or a news site, but a statement and a proposal. The same thing as a leader giving a speech, it's something to stand behind. I've already heard occupy say some great things and i think this can be fleshed out perfectly.

Otherwise we're going to wait around for the next buddha while tyrants have all the time they need?

[-] 2 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

I think narrow focus and clarity are important too. But I also think we can walk and chew gum at the same time. Different groups can work on different issues within the movement.

[-] 1 points by bullfrogma (448) 1 year ago

I didn't notice before how insidious this comment was. We've had this conversation already. I never said to pull people off their ships, and i certainly didn't say that here. Nobody has to get off their ship to be connected with something like unification. We can walk and chew gum at the same time, etc.

[-] 3 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

I'm glad you think so. I hope more people within the movement and also supporters accept that. It's so important that we not fall prey to the cry of "pick one thing.". I understand the instinct people have when they say that but in this case the negatives outweigh the positives.

[-] 5 points by DKAtoday (28407) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Move forward on all fronts - do not settle - expand - be all encompassing - what we face to make a better world for all is.

[-] 4 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

We must insist on justice. We Americans must rise to the occasion. We must not waver. Never ever ever quit.

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (28407) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Substitute - Awakening

[-] 2 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

Rock and roll. Awakening to a brand new day.

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (28407) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

I have my love for others and the memory of great good days that I have experienced and the wish/prayer for all others to experience the same - and - MORE. This is my drive - my inspiration. I know that it is yours as well - I know this is the inspiration of everyone who loves - truly loves - who is here and in the streets around the world.

[-] 5 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

It's an awakening. The world is coming awake. It's a momentous time in history. Corporatism will push back.....hard. But, as Martin King, Jr. said so eloquently, "The moral arc of the universe bends towards justice.". King was a radical, not the sanitized Santa Claus figure our culture has turned him into. It is radical to love that forcefully.

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (28407) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Quitting is not an option - death before such a consideration - death would be so much kinder then to give up.

[-] 3 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

We're all going to have to find a way to crank up the energy level for each other because it's a long bumpy road ahead.

[-] 2 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

We have to be bold. These times require more than incremental change.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (28407) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Yes - benefits - EVERYONE - from the Ground-ON-UP. {:-])


[-] 2 points by therising (4244) 0 minutes ago

And the beautiful part is that it not only benefits the society as a whole. This shift benefits individuals too. Win-win. ↥twinkle ↧stinkle permalink

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (28407) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Yes - it is long past time to implement change on a massive scale. Educating others to the existing possibilities for immediate implementation is KEY.

[-] 2 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

And the beautiful part is that it not only benefits the society as a whole. This shift benefits individuals too. Win-win.

[-] -3 points by bullfrogma (448) 1 year ago

I swear you're twisting it again. People should fight their good fights, but we are also in desperate need of that cry to unite, to defeat the landslide of evil power that has specifically become so understandable. You didn't defend yourself when i called your comment insidious, which is trademark troll. I'm seriously starting to wonder about you.

[-] 3 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

Your last two sentences are just completely silly.

[-] 0 points by bullfrogma (448) 1 year ago

A lot of things are just silly. Like the point system here, when your crew can vote you up to create impressions. It reminds me of money manipulating real life. You and a few others seem to always twist things and discredit other people who are trying to solve problems. So if you're really on the level then why do you keep subtly shafting me on these thoughts of uniting people?

[-] 2 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

You fell off the rails when you called my comment insidious. That was just silly. You lost my interest right there because it was a complete non sequitur .

[-] 0 points by bullfrogma (448) 1 year ago

Fine, don't answer my question.

[-] 1 points by samer (9) 1 year ago

There are certain points should be available in the working movement for change 1 - a clear idea of ​​what the change 2 - faith in the idea because if not faith, there will be no serious work 3 - there must be leadership directed the owners of the movement by ideas that believe 4 - create a public opinion on the idea, through contact with people in their homes, places of work, wherever they must deliver the message and discuss the idea with them

[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

Makes sense. I think big picture looks like this... And your suggestions may help spread this fundamental discovery: http://www.occupywallst.org/forum/damn-this-is-a-huge-discovery-that-has-shaken-so-m/

[-] 0 points by factsrfun (7070) from Phoenix, AZ 1 year ago

hey rising you may not agree with the underlying message here, but I am curious if you catch all the references....

http://occupywallst.org/forum/hey-i-finished-my-poem/

[-] 0 points by factsrfun (7070) from Phoenix, AZ 1 year ago

Discussion that does not lead to consensus is simply chatter, I believe vigorous debate from which a course of action can be hammered out, is useful, venting not so much, though it serves some purpose I suppose.

I see the forum as a way to connect people that otherwise would never meet, it allows us to do what those with greater funds do all the time, challenge each other in “face to face” debate, now those with funds form think tanks and fill up buildings with salary hit men, but we have this, we can use it, or just shoot the shit, whatever is cool with me, I guess, I was hoping to find people that cared about wealth inequality and the power that money gives a few.

I do from time to time speak of climate change and even violence, but I do think when I do see some coverage it would be better if people were more clear about what OWS is trying to achieve.

[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

I feel the same way. Where I'm kind of challenged though is that it's occurred to me that there is no "they", no leadership. I'm being very literal here. Whether we like it or not, whether it's helpful or harmful, I think Occupy is actually leaderless. So if we want to shift or concentrate the focus, we literally have to do it ourselves. We have to make the case, bring others on board within the movement and bring new people in from the outside to help push. I suppose that support would come from public actions, demonstrations, nonviolent protests, sit ins, street theater, blockades, boycotts, etc etc etc etc. Are you seeing the same thing? Not disagreeing with your feeling. Just trying to discover how it's possible to move forward practically speaking to achieve what you're saying. I really think they is we quite literally.

[Deleted]

[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

Well, I'd personally advocate for these goals http://www.occupywallst.org/forum/you-may-have-seen-this-list-of-8-practical-goals-b/ . But that's just me as one individual. What I'm asking is how the heck do we go about convincing enough people inside or outside Occupy join in to make substantive and lasting change..... On some of the goals in that link, or on XL pipeline, or Fracking, or countless other important initiatives. Pretend for a moment you decide one or 5 of these is most important. What do you do about that (you as an individual)?

[-] 1 points by gsw (2693) 1 year ago

How about radio advertisement??????????

Ows themed rock bands or songs. music videos?

Write letters to editor on these specific issues.

A lot more info or a link on global warming dramatized videos. Many people still see no problem.

At minimum petition signature links.

Also, link to congress and white house for or against the issues

Put the cracking info there too, so they can get informed and make a decision. That one is kind of new to many.

-put the link to the best produced popular informative Ie Inside Job

  • if there's a list of proposals, they could be emailed to people, postcards or business cards with web address.

-hosting occupy parties at bars

I like those 8, the ones of GK . I'd like to let more third parties in debates

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2011/10/poll-most-americans-support-occupy-wall-street/246963/

The millionaire's surtax has cut through the clutter. Although it may not be surprising that 90 percent of Democrats support this Democratic proposal, it's notable that 71 percent of independents do and even 37 percent of Republicans like this kind of a tax increase.

Some people chain selves to trees and equipment for pipeline in Texas, or the streakers against bothers budget.

People getting creative

The gals in brittain catholic church chained selves

[-] 2 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

But we have to keep in mind that this is just the tip of the iceberg. It's not just higher taxes on the rich. We need to change our priorities completely so they're focused on human needs instead of corporate needs.

[-] 0 points by factsrfun (7070) from Phoenix, AZ 1 year ago

hello gsw, about that third parties in debates thing, you know when Democracy NOW did the alternative debates they thinned the group after the first round so people could focus, if we did something like that I would agree too, but near the end you have to pick between the top two or your just hurting America and wasting time.

[-] 0 points by factsrfun (7070) from Phoenix, AZ 1 year ago

There is strength and weakness in the lack of organization, if there is no "head" the paid attack dogs can't cut it off, but the TV people need somewhere to point the camera. (and if you're not on TV, I am not sure you actually exist) Now mind you I've no experience in these things (organization that is, in debate I am a Grand Master, I’m sorry if that sounds immodest but I don’t lie) but I believe that there is great power in simple truth that folks can understand. I think as we talk among ourselves we will discover new and effective ways to communicate truth, I think that might be all we need to do. I am depending on the premise that people are basically good, if I'm wrong about that, then it’s just as well we don’t succeed.

[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

I think you are right on target. Clear messaging is key and yes, that is a challenge for a leaderless movement. Of course, one advantage that's nearly brand new is that we can also bypass the mainstream media as occurred in Egypt and America in the last few years. I think we need both. Need to push relentlessly with direct media on web, with Livestream YouTube, twitter etc. and also engage in actions that help get our message out through the mainstream press. There are certain things the mainstream media just can't ignore (King and Gandhi knew this quite well).

Note: I edited above post for clarity. If you get a chance, please read and see if this makes more sense now.

[-] 0 points by factsrfun (7070) from Phoenix, AZ 1 year ago

OK, good, thought I had reach my dementia stage for a minute there, I was reading and it seem familiar but different.

Your thoughts on reaching out, it is somewhat difficult to bring people into a fuzzy group, take for instance the TEA Party when they are talking to people they can state that at it's core the TEA Party is about low taxes, they all have that in common and some are concerned that the President was not born in America ect. I believe if OWS is to gain support people must have some firm notion of what they are supporting.

I even have some small disagreement about the "leaderless" part, though first let me say I am a firm believer in the concept that we all lead, I have even been to extensive "boot camps" on the subject, however someone does in the end decide what is on the Front Page here, and someone decides what is tweeted on OccupyPhoenix tweeter and so forth, these people are "leaders" they have taken on the responsibly of helping this movement grow, if we succeed it will be because some took on these tasks and guarded the spirit as they and we created it.

I am one of those that from time to time will urge that we be clear, the rich are too damn rich and we ain't stopping till something is done about it.

I noticed this trend shortly after Reagan was elected, as a math guy that really likes the curves, I noticed that America was on a path towards total breakdown of the system due to the imbalance in wealth, there are a number of things I care about that are made worst by this, climate change for instance, it will cost a lot of money so them that has got a lot of money don't want to spend it on that, when there are car elevators to buy instead.

A lot of people with less figure they can spare a little to save life on Earth, but those people may not have really cared about money in the first place.

I do understand the need to be a "big tent" hell I'm a yellow dog democrat I know about big tents and herding cats at some point I think we do need spokespeople, otherwise the media will stick a mic in front of who they want to and OWS will be defined by the main stream media.

I spit of our recent offenses I would still like to see America continue as an ongoing endeavor so I come here to talk about the biggest threat we face, that of mounting wealth (in the hands of a few) in the hopes that others will agree and together we can develop effective ways to talk about it.

[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

I totally hear you. Believe me. After all, I'm the person who's been pushing on this forum for the following 8 goals for the last 14 months: http://www.occupywallst.org/forum/you-may-have-seen-this-list-of-8-practical-goals-b/ . So, I really have the same feeling / wishes you do. It's just that it's kind of dawning on me that the movement isn't controlled by those posting to occupywallst.org news page or twitter. They're merely reporting on what OWS'ers are doing. I'm not being theoretical here. I'm being literal. No one is controlling this thing. It is propelled by good, sensible ideas and actions that resonate with people. The better the ideas and the better they're presented and organized, the more people gather around the idea and support whatever action is being taken.

So, to be clear, what I'm trying to say is that I completely agree with your understanding of how important messaging is. And I completely agree that we should get things done and push back hard against corporate power that has hijacked our democracy and caused all sorts of environmental and human destruction and suffering. All I'm trying to suggest here is a practical view of what Occupy actually is and is capable of so we can work within that framework to get all those great things done that we probably agree need to be done.

I want great messaging and want the mainstream American public to realize that they are a part of this and have so much at stake. I totally hunger for that understanding and want us all to achieve it. So, I'm trying to take the next logical step and suggest what we can practically do to move the ball down the field in a serious way. I am hoping we can all come to grips with the fact that WE are steering the ship so we'll start doing what we need to do to create the good outcomes we all hunger for.

[-] 1 points by factsrfun (7070) from Phoenix, AZ 1 year ago

In exit polls in VA, if I remember correctly, 54% of voters thought wealth inequality was a major problem, I think people know this they feel it, a problem we have is almost everyone with a mic is in the 1% and the truth is it's gonna cost them, so getting people to talk about it and getting policy changes are going to be tough, but I don't think we have a lot of convincing to do, i think it's more of a megaphone to express what most people already feel.

We've been fed this pamper the rich and they'll be good to you crap for 40 years and people are starting to catch on. People see their children working for slave wages after getting 50 or 100 thousand dollar educations.

The Royals like our ex governor Fyfe Symington who goes bankrupt but still lives like a King while they are thrown into the street over few thousand in debt. That young senator from North Carolina was right about the two Americas even if he did enjoy a lady's company from time to time.

And the GOP are pissed that people making less than $50,000 a year actually came out and voted this time, I saw one of their spinners talking about it and all but said those people got no business voting, as Romney said earlier people (the 47%) that don't pay taxes got no right to vote, (that's a paraphrase) .

[-] 2 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

I just reread this comment --- it's one of the better ones I've ever seen on this forum because it realize captures the delusion and the solution in big picture terms. Your language in this comment helps the mind break free from the indoctrination and puts a whole new twist on what we've been taught for so long. Well said.

I'd encourage your to do a full post using that comment above as a starting point if you're so inclined. It kind of hit me a moment ago that even someone like me who considers himself critical and thinks about this stuff a lot benefits from hearing things put the way you have. It helps remove the gauze from our eyes, something that is perhaps not a one time process. Maybe it's something we have to do every day and this forum serves that added benefit.

The other benefit you posting your comment above as an actual post is that it arms like minded people to go out and open other people's eyes using the language you have. That's a real benefit in my book. You taught me a new way of saying it above and I really do think others would benefit as I have.

I know your comment may have just been something you wrote quickly and didn't think much about but I think you have inadvertently hit on a powerful, concise couple of paragraphs that could get just about anyone to think hard about what's really going on in this country.

[-] 1 points by factsrfun (7070) from Phoenix, AZ 1 year ago

thank you rising, I have a theory, if you say something plain enough not even the lairs can keep from learning...

(not that I consider you among them, I want to corrupt the minds of their minions)

[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

Right on :)

[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

I agree with everything you said here. Right on. I think you're making a good point about what's missing is the megaphone. You said, "a problem we have is almost everyone with a mic is in the 1% and the truth is it's gonna cost them, so getting people to talk about it and getting policy changes are going to be tough, but I don't think we have a lot of convincing to do, i think it's more of a megaphone to express what most people already feel."

That gives me a real sense of optimism because is the water really is built up high behind this weak dam, if the most of the people in the country really do get this and feel it in there bones, then all they need is to become emboldened to speak up. And that is something that really can become a virtuous cycle once the party of speaking up has started.

The key is that people are awakening to find they have more in common than they have separating them. That's what the 1% has dreaded all along. They keep us all tied up in knots of consumerism, cloud our eyes with mainstream media and feed the fires of division wherever possible -- Anything to keep the 99% from realizing they're all pretty much in the same boat. Over 50% of the wealth in this country is held by the top 1% and 90% of that is inherited. So much for all those lectures on pulling ourselves up by our bootstraps.

Reminds me of when President Bush congratulated the woman who was working three jobs to feed her family. "Wow, that's great," he smiled. "Uniquely American."

[-] 1 points by factsrfun (7070) from Phoenix, AZ 1 year ago

He was smiling because people like him get rich off the labor of others, they own the country and they want to own our lives. They want to take all the excess that is produced so they can set it aside for their offspring, it's always about the children.

if you haven't red my profile I recommend it, it lays out the problem and solution of sorts, I like to keep things simple, not so much that I need to it's just that there's little point in losing people and I'm not writing laws (right now) after dealing with Tech Specs for twenty years, believe me when I say this is not the place that kind of thing can be worked out.

[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

Cool. I'll check out your profile. And I agree. This forum isn't the place where we figure out the nitty gritty details. It's more like the place where we get energized and emboldened and challenged to go out and get things done (including those nitty gritty details).

[-] -1 points by Misaki (893) 1 year ago

But others might feel that environmental issues like global warming, XL pipeline or fracking are even more important in terms of urgency and should be at the head of the line.

Climate change is lower priority than job creation.

http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-pn-obama-climate-change-priority-20121114,0,1745357.story

http://www.freakonomics.com/2010/08/24/unemployment-vs-global-warming/

[-] 2 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

Says who?

[-] 0 points by Misaki (893) 1 year ago

The US President, and most voters.

[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

That doesn't mean it's the right answer.

[-] 1 points by Misaki (893) 1 year ago

Well, when unemployment and poverty lead to crime as well as rampage killings, I don't find it surprising that people find the prospect of a violent death more motivating than someone living on the coast having to move their house a few feet higher on the beach due to higher sea levels.

[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

That's a pretty big reach.

[-] 1 points by Misaki (893) 1 year ago

Economic problems are one of the leading causes of crime, if not the leading cause. People don't have to understand all the details of why, they just need to pick up from people they know who have lost their job and spent months looking for another one how stressful it is and how important it is for them that more jobs be created for the nation.

[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

I don't think we need to choose actually. Here's my point: http://occupywallst.org/forum/occupy-is-a-fleet-of-ships-and-there-is-no-they-in/

[-] 1 points by Misaki (893) 1 year ago

The idea behind OWS supporting working less is that it would have created a media event. This would have introduced it into the national consciousness when currently, there are many people who are deluded into thinking that the US cannot afford to have people work less because of the national debt (which in reality, is mostly owed to ourselves).

[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

Could you a bit a bit less obtuse and a little more clear? What are you actually getting at?

[-] 1 points by Misaki (893) 1 year ago

In a single link: no one replied to this thread, and while one OWS member appears to have signed it, there is no evidence any other OWS members did:

http://occupywallst.org/forum/petition-end-hunger-poverty-and-war-through-econom/

If a few tens of thousand, or even a few OWS members had signed it, it is possible or even likely that it would have ended up being adopted by the world.