My latest rant trolling an occupy mailing list
Posted 10 years ago on Sept. 4, 2013, 12:20 p.m. EST by jart (1186) from New York, NY
It has recently come to my attention that 50 billion land animals (and probably another 90 billion sea animals) are murdered by humans each year for food (source). How could I not have noticed this sooner? To think that all these years I’ve been fighting to “get money out of politics” and “bring back the middle class” while the most prolific outbreak of mass murder in human history has been happening right beneath my nose! I feel ashamed.
I hate to say it, but we’re going to have to put fighting Wall Street on the back-burner for a little while. At least until we’ve made some progress in stopping the animal genocide.
I started a centi-thread on OccupyWallSt.org about this issue three weeks ago, so this topic is already being debated within the movement: http://occupywallst.org/forum/the-goal-of-occupy-should-be-to-end-violence-again/ (BTW I love how the forum I coded from scratch while living in a park is still a thriving community to this day. You guys should really hang out there more often.)
In times like these, I feel it’s a strategic error to focus our efforts on the issues of abstract economic reform like stopping TPP or reinstating Glass-Steagall. No one understands that shit. And even if we were 100% effective in executing our agenda and our opinions on the issue turned out to be correct and didn’t do more harm than good, the best case scenario is that we’ll help a few million or so going through tough times financially over the coming decades. Helping millions may seem noble, but I’d call it’s petty compared to the trillions being murdered and ignored. The animal genocide is the most important issue of our time. History has granted us an opportunity to stand up and fight for what’s right. We must decide if we want to be looked back upon favorably by our grandchildren, or become their source of shame. So today, I’ve officially thrown down the wedge: Which side are you on, boys?
If we accept the discoveries of science that human beings are animals like any other, and we freely choose to accept the opinion that life has value, happiness should be attainable, suffering should not be inflicted unless necessary, and justice comes from ensuring these concepts apply to the greatest number possible—then one must conclude that no issue is more important than ending the animal holocaust. In 2003 alone, casualties were 3.4 orders of a magnitude higher than all the deaths in WWII put together. (3.4≈log(150e9/60e6), source) I apologize for using engineering notation, but the scale of these atrocities creates numbers so large that they simply can’t be expressed any other way. The fact is that if we don’t act now, the derivative of dead bodies will only continue to rise over time as the third-world modernizes and their emerging middle classes begin demanding the western luxuries we take for granted that are predicated on suffering. The capitalists will continue building factory farms to meet demand because they have no conscience. They’ll keep growing and killing until eventually the whole planet becomes a slaughterhouse and then they too shall meet their demise. Red ink flows like a river of blood.
Perhaps Occupy’s tragic flaw has always been our own selfishness. Always caring about the middle class, sitting around in a park eating animal flesh fresh from the local pizzeria. The only thing we wondered about was who paid for the pizza; no one asked who died for it.
I bring you these revelations at great personal risk to mine activist career. The topic of animal liberation is so taboo that I’m breaking the unspoken rules of social propriety by even bringing it up! I expect some of you will label me divisive or a troll. But in doing so you’ve only affirmed mine ability to rouse your cognitive dissonance. The only thing you have to lose is your ignorance, so expect no pity from me.
But what what infuriates me the most is when people try to defend the meat industry. If you write a reply disagreeing with me, I’d be appreciative if you could explain which of the stated premises you disagree with, or at least own up to the fact that you’ve sacrificed consistency for the sake of lifestyle because you haven’t got the heart for care for these poor animals. Just please, don’t try to rationalize what you’re doing. We both know it’s wrong.
To give you an example of this behavior, I saw an anarchist documentary once where they filmed this poor little fishy—who never hurt anyone and just wanted to swim and be happy—being plucked from its home in the sea only to be beaten to death with a wooden club. An entire lifetime gone, just so some humans could experience a fleeting moment of “tasty” sustenance. Moxie chose to leave this scene unedited, forcing us to watch the murder in its full lengthy glory. But what saddens me the most is that as I sat there cringing, I looked upon the transfixed faces of my friends who unlike me were not perturbed by such brutish behavior. The eyes glazed over as the countenance bore a chilling sense of serenity, like the uncaring psychopath who hungers for a meal. But these are just normal people who support progressive causes and care deeply about social/economic justice. But somehow they have this magical ability to flip a switch that makes them not care about animals.
As for the nature argument: I say that everything we do is natural, which means nothing is natural. If it could be said that we as humans have any nature at all, it would be the ability to choose. This means:
We can choose to get our calories from a source that doesn’t require suffering.
We can choose to shut down the factory farms, using force if necessary.
We can choose to build a new culture that doesn’t require an unterlumpenproletariat class whose sole possession of significant material value is their ability to die.
We can choose to engineer clever harm-free substitutes like synthetic beef.
With choice comes responsibility. Now I know you’re all very responsible people, so I have no doubt you’ll all choose wisely.
Sincerely,
Justine Tunney
Tall Girl Who Built Your Website
[s17-discussion] Can we protest the animal holocaust on S17 instead of TPP?
If shutting down this forum is the real intention then let it be done with swiftness and grace rather than any lingering death by a thousand cuts.
That plastic-anarchist and resident forum divider, disruptor and dissembler, TrashyManqué will just love such a divisive, desultory and depressing forum post and he is already on this thread, with his glib fork-tongued whisperings, not to mention his 'Bankers to Belugas' line, so be wary of doing his work for him.
Human beings are NOT just ''animals like any other'' as evidenced by language, culture, art, science & abstract philosophy and a near universal propensity for metaphysical speculation. Much as I really love animals, wildlife and nature, I have still yet to encounter 'dolphin physics' or 'elephant epidemiology' or 'snow leopard bio-chemistry', 'squirrel poetry' or even the delights of 'orangutan literature'.
I believe all life should be respected and even revered but there is a difference between humans and all other life and with that comes a very real responsibility to all life - human, animal, vegetable and to our exquisite interconnected web of life and ecosystems BUT like it or not, we are the global top predators, custodians and shepherds. I can do little better than to repeat myself from your previous thread along these lines on : http://occupywallst.org/forum/the-goal-of-occupy-should-be-to-end-violence-again/ - where you asked :
''Nine billion animals are killed by the U.S. regime each year for food, and countless more forms of aquatic life whose deaths are too innumerable to count. Why do we care about everything else when this is going on?'' ... and where I replied with :
''Because human beings are more important - maybe only a little bit more but still nevertheless - 'more' important than animals !!! There is - NEVER ANY Excuse, for cruelty and inhumane behaviour towards animals !! However, faced with the sad option of pulling a man, woman or a child OR their dog from the path of an oncoming truck .. sorry to hurt your feelings but it's adios pooch, as anything else would be clearly misanthropic and indeed potentially psychopathic, imo !'' & ...
''Do you propose that OWS is less important than PETA ? That'd be preposterous, right ? However that does NOT mean PETA should not exist - but it does mean we need to prioritise and keep different and perhaps parallel struggles, in some perspective.''
From the Arctic Inuit to Australian Aboriginals ; Amazonian Natives to The Sentinelese in The Andaman Islands - and all points in between ... we are omnivores who eat meat, fish and any other protein source along with plants. Getting puritanical and misanthropic is not an option really - not here, where we try to fight for The Global 99% and true peace and a sustainable prosperity for all, in our ever warming world.
There are so many assumptions and leaps of logic in your emotional forum-post, that merely to quote a few excerpts, will be sufficient here : a) ''If we accept the discoveries of science that human beings are animals like any other, and we freely choose to accept the opinion that life has value, happiness should be attainable, suffering should not be inflicted unless necessary and justice comes from ensuring these concepts apply to the greatest number possible — then one must conclude (really?!) that no issue is more important than ending the animal h-l-c--st.'' ; b) ''The only thing you have to lose is your ignorance, so expect no pity from me'' and also c) ''We can choose to build a new culture that doesn’t require an unterlumpenproletariat class whose sole possession of significant material value is their ability to die.'' Tch !!! Hubris much ?!! Need I say much more ?!
What we must or must not ''conclude'' remains to be seen but though I sincerely honour and appreciate all your excellent work here in these last two years, IF you are losing focus, fire and ire on behalf of The 99%, OWS and this forum then maybe it is time to hand over to the likes of others who are not quite as jaded, disillusioned or heaven forbid 'corporate captured'. So remind yourself as to what it's all about now by trying to realign your political chakras with :
http://occupywallst.org/forum/1-from-1/ ;
http://occupywallst.org/forum/join-us-on-s17/ ;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltNaDDQZ07k ;
http://www.commondreams.org/view/2013/04/09-1 ;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWKx0PS3wDw ;
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article34360.htm &
http://truth-out.org/opinion/item/17498-why-arent-americans-fighting-back ?
Viva Los Indignados ! Viva The 99% !! Viva OWS and a Very Happy 2nd Birthday !!!
per aspera ad astra ...
The forum isn't shutting down.
I would agree with you that human beings are more important than animals. We humans possess the intelligence to bring a greater elegance and self-understanding to the universe. But just because animals aren't as smart as us, doesn't mean we have a right to make them suffer when it's not necessary.
Thank you for ''Hold Fast'' [ http://vimeo.com/15351476 ]. I had heard of it but never seen it until now and it was fantastic viewing. I put it to you that the amazing fish that they killed, enabled their journey and was for their sustenance as it was part of the whole 'transformation of energy' that goes on in The Universe and is part of ''a greater elegance and self-understanding'' - to use your beautiful phrase and that the ''fishy'' ; the sailors and the sea are also elegantly inter-connected via that 'direct deposit' !!!
You are a kindly and sensitive soul, which is part of the empathic nature that informs your politics no doubt but they clearly had to despatch that amazing green fish (I forget the species) with that winch handle and like the guy says ... the big problem was that they didn't hit it hard enough at the start !! Thanx again for a truly inspirational and very moving film though.
I am glad that this face of the movement ''isn't shutting down'' and I do agree with you re. unnecessary suffering of animals. Somewhat ironically, as an ex sailor - Odin would have loved that film & I do hope that you can think again re. your view of him if he can see fit to reapply here again. Also fyi and for the standing record here :
''Some Filthy Facts about the Rich'', by Paul Buchheit : http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article35981.htm &
''The Leveraged Buyout of America'', by Ellen Brown : http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article35975.htm .
pax, amor et lux ....
To bo honest, I loved the film. Except for the fish part :(
''Do you eat sushi ?'' Or any other fish for that matter ? - is the obvious next question ;-) No actual reply necessary - this isn't an inquisition but you'll get my point as I get yours and we both recommend ''Hold Fast''. Finally, re. Trashy-Troll, many thanx for your link to http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Concern_troll from :
I never heard of such a thing but as the cap fits perfectly, then he can wear it from now on in, lol. Thanx.
pax ...
Nope I don't eat any fish. I can probably count on one hand the number of times in my life where I've tried seafood. I like vegetarian sushi though.
Also yea, "concern troll" is such a great way to describe the behavior.
I use a crooked stick for a spoon
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Beautifully said. And, I would like to know how the 99% with their meager average salary of $26,000 are supposed to eat a diet of fruit and veggies. Have you been to the market here? Not only are fruits and vegetables prohibitively expensive for most Americans to eat as a major part of their diet, but any organic foods be they fruits, vegetables or even meats are extremely expensive.
Focus on the people first, and then, when the people have it together they will do right by the animals.
I don't get it that "fruits and vegetables are prohibitively expensive for most Americans". California oranges arrive all the way across oceans to Australia, and are still quite affordable.
My weekly expense for wheat grain to grow wheatgrass is about a dollar. Pepitas, which are a complete food, are about a fifth of the price of fresh meat.
It's not that difficult to grow very nutritious foods in your own kitchen. It all comes down to expectations, I guess.
Well, that is lucky for you. Typical American grocery stores tell a different story. That is why Americans gorge on cheap junk food. And, most Americans live in major cities.
I'm looking at prices for organic produce in the New York region. I'm aware that variations occurr across the nation, but I'm assuming that these prices would be a general indicator.
http://foodcoop.com/go.php?id=90
And further to your claim BW, re Americans "gorging on cheap junk food", I would posit that habits are hard to break, and simple sloth, or parental sloth, is behind the indolence and intransigence that leads people to continue to consume nutrition-poor mass-procuced, poison, masquerading as food, while spreading myths about how hard or expensive it is to eat a healthy diet.
When food is low on nutrient value, like all junk food is, and your sodas are loaded with high fructose corn syrup, appetite is not satisfied, and that leads to over-indulgence, obesity, diabetes, cancers, et al. How cheap are those foods, when you factor in all the after-effects of eating that crap?
Actually, if you haven't checked it out, I'm sure that you would have noticed, we have areas that are called food deserts.
BW was talking about Americans living in major cities. It's my understanding that food is generally quite cheap in America.
When you say, "food deserts", are you referring to monoculture zones?
That's my idea of a food desert.
No - a food desert is an area that has no markets - no food markets - but they have plenty of fast food shops in many of em.
Thanks. There seems to be a resistance to this happening in Australia. Even in the inner city areas, you'll still find green grocers, and specialist delicatessans.
We also have online stores, where we can buy literally any kind of organic meats, fruits and vegetables, and dairy products. Pricey though.
Yes it is - we also have home delivery ( Mn ) - and - again - pricey.
This is why I focus on wheatgrass and other sprouts.
Grow it yourself for pennies a meal.
Pepitas sauteed in butter are also good value, and can be purchased in bulk online.
Eating well for not a lot - can be done - but it can also take planning and work. That planning and work gets into how sick and tired a portion of a population can be - as to how well that gets done on average.
To be honest, DK, if I was residing in the U.S. of A., I would be shunning anything that came in a can or a wrapper. 80% of all processed food is from GMO products, including all soda, beer, distilled spirits, and a lot of medications.
Planning to not become a cancer statistic, so the parasitic corporate overlords don't have the last laugh, and steal what few coins remain, is where I'd be heading.
It is also why I chastise cancer groups and charities for not going after the known causes of cancer that can be removed from our lives - taken off the shelf immediately.
Exactly why getting the crap labeled is every bit as important as finally getting the crap banned.
Fruits and veggies are cheaper than meat, but, even if you do eat meat, you should still eat fruits and veggies. In any case, jart was wrong to frame this as a vegetarian's quest. It should be about saving our planet. We need to save the fauna and flora. We can't keep destroying it at this pace. There's 90% less sea life now than there was in the 1950's. That's drastic. With this pace, we won't have a planet to live on in the near future.
Your vision is myopic, hindered by misunderstandings and misinterpretations fueled by your negative tendency towards delusional conspiracy theory type thinking. 911 Trutherism is a joke. Get over it. My attacking that nonsense was good for this forum.
I never wanted to destroy this forum, or OWS. I wanted to improve it through criticism and by offering solutions. I never espoused "right wing" ideologies. That is a figment of your imagination. I always pushed for socialist, and, at times, even communist solutions. Whether you believe me or not is of no importance. The readers here can read what I post for themselves, and make up their own mind.
Many realize my ideas of a Bridge to the Ground, my idea that censorship is bad, my idea that we should avoid false hierarchies like the moderator/user dichotomy and points, that OWS should show by practice by helping to start anarcho-syndicalist businesses, that using logic instead of conspiracy theory type thinking is of utmost importance, that petty fighting using insults is useless, etc... They realize these ideas are important.
It's also fair to say that jart doesn't want to destroy this forum. This is a very big accusation you make. A baseless and insulting one at that.
Now, to the animals.
Jart is young, and perhaps she didn't frame her position well. We are not talking about helping doggies and kitties because it's the right thing to do. This is not a question of morality, but a question of necessity.
Science does show that we are just animals. It also shows that we are leaps and bounds above other animals in terms of our ability to think logically, to plan, and to modify our environment. You seem to think these "special" attributes give us more importance. This is flawed logic, and stems from an antiquated anthropomorphic view of the world; from a time when men thought they were the most important so they would place the earth smack in the middle of the universe.
I believe what we are doing to animals is morally reprehensible. It is wrong. Our special abilities mean we have a special responsibility. And, if you study nature, you'll notice that animals don't go around destroying everything for fun, needlessly. They kill when they must eat. We kill for game, for fun, to build big houses, for war, etc... Destroying entire shark populations for the luxury of fine soup, destroying entire species because we want to collect their tusks for trophies, etc... This is needless. It is below us.
However, even if you disagree with the above and hold on to the antiquated anthropomorphic view that we are more important than other animals, still your thinking is flawed.
We need this planet to survive. Eliminating entire populations of animals is bad for the planet. Destroying forests is bad for the planet. If we keep things up, we won't have a planet to survive on. And, this will happen very soon.
So, you can keep your selfish thinking and decide that we need to save the planet not for its own sake, but for ourselves.
Perhaps jart wasn't clear on this issue. It's not a question of creating PETA 2.0. We already have that. It shouldn't be just about animals either. It should be framed as a fight for both the flora and the fauna. As a fight for our beloved planet.
I do agree with jart 100%. We should put fighting Wall Street on the back burner. This can wait. What can't wait is the planet. This should be our #1 priority by far. Also, our fight against Wall Street hasn't done much lately. Anarchy was unable to change much on that front. Many people on this very site are against the basic principles of Occupy. Some of the forum posters, mostly those with big points, are against anarchy itself. How can OWS help in such a context when many of its followers don't even believe in the basic principles.
Anarchy is perfect for creating groups to fight for the planet. Politicians don't fight for the planet, but we can.
Speaking of Belugas, perhaps you should read this:
http://www.earthisland.org/journal/index.php/elist/eListRead/evidence_of_beluga_intelligence_raises_questions_about_captivity/
Know a Tr@shyManqué by the crap it spews, its designated 'trigger words' and its vacuous warblings eg. : ''We should put fighting Wall Street on the back burner. This can wait'', being followed very shortly thereafter by : ''Many people on this very site are against the basic principles of Occupy'' ! Hmmmm !! People like your schizoid self ? Worra Fkn Eedjut & Bourgeois Dilettante to boot ... et temet nosce !!!
More importantly, consider : http://truth-out.org/opinion/item/17498-why-arent-americans-fighting-back ?
From which : ''This is the big question, right ? It's what people are wondering everywhere. The answer is simple and plausible - but the real explanation is a bit more complicated. The majority of Americans are suffering terribly from the current economic crisis but they do not as yet have a political self-identity that will allow for a successful fightback. They don't know who they are or what they're fighting for. Neither do they understand whom or what they are fighting against.
''The capitalist class already knows who they are and what they are fighting for, and they are well aware of who their enemy is. That's why they are presently winning the fights.
''The majority of Americans have to work for a living to survive, in workplaces devoid of democratic rights. Workers are neither middle class nor lower class, no matter how much or how little we earn, no matter if we work with our minds or muscles, in factories, offices, transportation companies, schools, hospitals, or retail outlets. We are working class, but are discouraged from thinking of ourselves as such.
''Before 'The Big Fightback' begins, American workers - the vast majority of those whose hands & minds control the wealth-producing "machinery" - will realize our awesome power over economics and politics. We will also come to understand that we share mutual interests with other toilers everywhere and that we have no interests in common with our class enemy - the American Capitalist Class.''
~
But what do you care, right ? Back to your B-S BelugaBoy, hope you meet a speeding Narwhal coming the other way ! Further, for other more serious minded readers, I'll just recommend : http://rdwolff.com/ .
Finally, for your patron 'Pierre Fournier' and you : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NdyLb7ouXUU and do you care to explain http://occupywallst.org/forum/how-to-move-the-protest-from-bankers-to-belugas/ ?
spero meliora ...
I know - Right?
LOL - " speeding Narwhal coming the other way ! "
You shouldn't laugh when one user wishes harm upon another one. Especially when you're a moderator (or ex moderator). That's simply unprofessional beyond belief.
Edit : ( sorry ) in2 and 2
Ummm I don't think Shadz is a moderator. And your likely hood of swimming in2 a narwhal? aAHHAHahahaha As 4 U? It is 2 laugh.
I was talking about you being a moderator. Moderators are supposed to be mature, objective, etc... Not people full of hatred and susceptible to emotional turmoils. You have the qualities of a teenager, not a moderator.
Ummm with U being a shill? Nope sorry " that " boat don't float.
Are you going to contribute ideas or arguments on jart's posting, or are you just here to troll other users and try to derail to discussion off-topic? I wrote long comments in the hopes of defending jart's position and offered suggestions to improve it. I did so like a man, by using proper logic. Are you able to do that?
I'm not a shill, no more than you are a good moderator. That's your delusion, your fantasy, your conspiracy theory mumbo jumbo.
Quit lying. You write long comments because you're a blowhard.
You have a way of cutting straight through the crap to hit a bulls-eye.
Well, thank you. :)
You are most certainly welcome. {:-])
I replied to your comment. Provided a link that answered your question (the link to the TED talk). Provided ideas and opinions on this topic from jart (more ideas and opinions about it than anyone else here). You are only here to troll.
Actually, you interjected. I corrected you. You began to talk like a prima donna colonist. You didn't; want to talk anymore and I said Fuck you.
I gave you the answer to your question, but you refused to listen to the TED talk. Like DKAtoday, you are only here to troll other users and try to "one up" them at every turn. The only good news is that you stopped soiling the forum with your kindergarten profanity.
You think I somehow decided to stop calling you a right wing shill theathuglican douche bag cockroach?
Boy, are you in for a fucking surprise.
I thought you had matured from teenager to adult, I see that I was wrong. You're only here to throw jart's posting off-topic. To troll it.
Wha wha wha cries the little shill ( that would B U - I know U R easily confused ) - go start Ur own 4um like U keep saying U will. Hah - not bloody likely.
[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (435) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 hour ago
Ur Off topic Pin-Head.
to break the will?
Probably. They've been doing it since they got here. Same tired recipe. Don't debate properly against those you disagree with, just label them shills, try to break their will, censor them, hope they don't come back. They learned that from the 1%. Attack the proposer, try to defame him in the hopes that this will somehow destroy his ideas. Of course, intelligent readers know how to judge an idea on its own merits, so their method only works on the simple minded.
Now Ur talkin 2 Ur self - at least that is what it looks like - I mean as U R into self flagellation - why not then berate Ur self as well?
My reply was to MattLHolck. And your reply simply confirms what I was saying in my previous comment. You are just here to troll, that's why you use your 11-year-old-girl-SMS-type-writing.
http://occupywallst.org/forum/my-latest-rant/#comment-1000011
BTW - twas U who went off topic =
So - don't start a fight - if U R Unable 2 finish it.
The only people trying to start fights are shooz, GF, and you. You all go around the forum attacking other users, bringing discussions off topic, trying to "one up" everyone you can with your tired and lame rhetoric, etc... You are the only real trolls on this forum.
And, if someone really did try to start a fight with you, as a real moderator you shouldn't indulge. You should be above that. Your job is to keep things on-topic, it's not to engage in lame fights.
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oh noes
LOL - damn but I suppose "it" will need it explained.
But.....that's why I included a picture.
Very thoughtful - but still - we R talking about the eternal shill - self flagellator extraordinaire.
Says the eternal shill who has attacked this forum from day 1.
I attacked conspiracy theorists who were attacking the forum. I single handedly saved the forum from 911 Truthers and anti-Semite nonsense. Then I turned my attention to people like you because I knew you were here to corrupt this place from the start. Unfortunately, jart let her guard down and the rest is history. The good news is, the other users on the forum are finally starting to understand that I was right all along. It has become obvious to almost everyone here that the ...TwinkleTeam... intentions were to co-opt this site for the Democrat party.
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Ummmmm seriously? I was thinking more like 100 as "it" keeps replacing the ones that get booted. {:-])
We have more than 30 users here. Just take everyone with more than 300 points. That way you'll know it's not a new user created to skewer the vote. I won't even vote. I'll give a free vote to DKAtoday. I think you guys are scared of the truth. No harm is asking what others think of the moderation. That's how you form communities, by asking the opinions of others.
EDIT : Roadappleboy ( <- if that confuses U? It is the same as Horseappleboy ) - U have "JUST" got 2 B kidding - Right? 26,000 points gone in a couple of weeks due to an obsessed bot user - and U want me 2 what? aAHAHAHahahahahahahahaha ummmmm heeheheheee hell it could very well B U - as U R a little bit more than obsessed with this 4um "and" U R an admitted bot user.
Your points weren't taken away by a bot, and I had nothing to do with that. Ask jart, she can check the IPs of the people down voting you. It shouldn't even matter because points don't matter. Your totalitarian dictatorship style of moderation is what matters. Points are just a stupid number on the screen, get over it. The people who are down voting you are PeterPropotkin and his friends.He got angry when you banned him and we he realized you had corrupted and co-opted this forum.
You're scared of the truth. That's why you don't want to ask the community what they think of your moderating. This is Occupy. It's about forming communities. It's much better for you and everyone else if you ask what people think. That's how communities work.
U listening 2 the voices in Ur head? Get back on Ur medication.
Do you have guts? Are you brave?
If so, write a forum post and ask everyone on the forum to tell you with honesty how they feel about your moderation. If you care about Occupy and forming communities this would be information you want to know. And, if, like you say, I'm hearing voices in my head, then you have nothing to fear.
If you do that, and if more than 30 different users respond and the majority tell you they agree with your moderation, then I promise never to come back to this site again.
My Bad - EDIT: Leave butt.
Roadappleboy - U have been and continue 2 B the worst thing that ever happened 2 this 4um. Take pride in that - butt leave.
It's a question of opinion. Most people now are saying you and shooz are the worst things that ever happened to this forum. I agree with that majority.
Heeehehehe - I just don't know where 2 start with that one - aAHhAhaha haHEEEHehehe - 4 instance - U have always been obsessed with points - how many times have we all heard you whining about points and Ur lack thereof. Pete & friends removing 1000 points or more per night? aAHhAhaha haHEEEHeheheaAHhAhahaHOOOhoohoooo aAHhAhaha HOOOhoohoooohaHEEEHeheheaAHhAhahaHOOOhoohoooo
It's easy to remove 1000 points per night if you are a few people. It takes 5 minutes to remove 100 points. You make a lot of comments in many postings. One simply has to open one or your posts with a lot of comments, then zoom down the list and click dislike every time they see your name. It's fast and easy. No need for a bot.
If I still had bots and still used them, I would be taking off 10,000 points from your account every single day. Just because you care so much about points that it makes you angry. Just to show that points don't matter. They shouldn't matter. If you didn't care about points, like you shouldn't, then you wouldn't have brought them up once again. Who cares? They're just a stupid number on the screen.
The only thing your high score showed was that you were obsessed and addicted to the forum. You should be happy they were removed. It makes you look more healthy.
My only obsession with points is that they should be removed. They create a false hierarchy that doesn't matter at all. They are useless. We already have enough problems with people like you using logical fallacies to attack the proposer instead of discussing the ideas and arguments brought forth. Points just give people one more target to attack the proposer with a logical fallacy. Useless. Counterproductive.
That's from jart. Read her OP again. She puts it in bold.
You always reply with logical fallacies. Always attack the proposer instead of the ideas and/or the arguments. You learned that on your conspiracy theory websites. Not much arguing I can do against that. No discussion to be had. You are delusional and you accuse me of a zillion things which are simply made up lies that only exist in your confabulations.
Like above, when you replied to jart. You accused her of wanting to destroy the site, of being tired, losing focus, being jaded, disillusioned, "corporate captured". All assumptions. All lame.
You should become a man. Men use evidence, proper logic, are polite, etc... It's teenagers who use logical fallacies and dream of conspiracy theories.
I replied to your point of humans being more important than animals. It's an anthropomorphic view. It's antiquated. And, like I said, it doesn't matter. Even if you really believe that, we should still try to save the planet because without it we will all die.
I'm 100% honest when I say I agree with jart. The problem with the planet is no longer a joke. It's real and it's serious.
" Back to your B-S BelugaBoy, hope you meet a speeding Narwhal coming the other way !
Wishing harm upon others is not the Occupy way. It's also not a way to forge constructive debates and discussions.
So 'BelugaBoy' - irrespective of your specious double-speak, have you any reply to the final question re. your B-S forum-post, I linked to above ?! No doubt you'd like to try to pass it off as 'humour' but ''many a truth in jest'', n'est ce pas ?!! Finally - for how long have you been trying to pass yourself off as 'Odin' ?!!!!
'Pea' or 'almond' ; Brazil or Macadamia .... you're a bit nuts aren't you Trashy-'BalugaBoy'-Macaque ?!!
Looks like jart's got your number -- http://occupywallst.org/forum/my-latest-rant/#comment-1000868 !
verum ex absurdo ...
Um........I really hate to point this out but trade agreements are Wall Street. Food speculation (commodity speculation) is Wall Street.
Wall Street is part of it. Only one part. We can still attack Wall Street, but with this new flora and fauna outlook. We can also attack any other business or group that threatens the planet. This is an international problem, not one limited to US. And, unlike this forum seems to indicate, Occupy is an international protest, not one limited to US.
It doesn't matter if you choose to see it or not. It exists. Multinational. I'm not going to do one of your circle jerk debates today.
http://www.stopafricalandgrab.com/
Read my previous comment again. I agreed. Wall Street is part of the problem.
See this:
but with this new flora and fauna outlook. We can also attack any other business or group that threatens the planet. This is an international problem, not one limited to US. And, unlike this forum seems to indicate, Occupy is an international protest, not one limited to US.
Any other group will be tied into Wall Street because there is only one reason to threaten the planet. Profit. No one here is under the impression, as you would have it, that the protests are limited to the US. In fact, your food riots predate Occupy by a long shot. Land grabbing predates Occupy. You could always research the number of people in Gambella that were murdered for land. Monsanto is global.
Multinational investors in multinational companies screwing with and paying off the elite and governments in.......multi nation states. Trade agreements made between nations...........Wall Street. It's all Wall Street.
Wall Street cannot function not without the peoples permission
And?
Oh, n/m. pat pat pat
BTW - It's pretty nice that jart took away moderation powers from the ...TwinkleTeam... Makes for a fairer, more interesting forum.
There never was a twinkle team. Any time your ready, clown.
Is this true? I noticed everybody got real polite yesterday when jart showed up, but has the forum actually been liberated?
It was a no brainer. jart realized how bad the moderation had been in the last few months. She's going to be looking for new moderators.
Ur name should B roadappleboy - cause Ur full of it.
Yay! I feel like an East German in 1989.
Power corrupts, never forget it
Yes. The site is much more pleasant now that they don't go around insulting other users and soiling it with profanity. Much more professional and pleasant. Let's hope it stays that way.
It's not all Wall Street. All money does not pass through Wall Street. It's also not only about profit. I lived in a few countries that destroyed nature and animals simply because people were lazy and uneducated. People would dump their dangerous garbage like leaky batteries in beautiful nature. We can help with education. We can also help by changing our daily habits. Driving cars, using excessive amounts of water, proper recycling, etc... We have to teach people to consume less when possible.
This fauna and flora problem affects everybody, not only the 99%, but the 1% as well. It's the number 1 issue of the day.
From bankers to belugas is a great idea. And, it starts today!
How cool are you? Are you going to go in and teach 'em how to better themselves by raising bamboo crops too?
Because they are ignorant and lazy.....
I love you middle class motherfuckers. Mimic the elite, distance yourself from the elite, yet distance yourself from the lower working classes or in the case of other nation states.......those ignorant and lazy savages.
Teach 'em, will you? LOL.
Colonize much?
There are lazy and ignorant people in every single nation of the world. It's a fact of life.
I'm not middle class. I live below the poverty line. Lazy and ignorant people exist in all classes of society.
Fail.
Well, thanks for the discussion. It's refreshing to see that you are now able to converse like an adult without having to resort to childish profanities and vulgarities. A nice improvement I must say. I have to go. Duty calls. Have a nice day.
Fuck you. :)
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I don't understand why there is a distinction between killing humans with chemicals and killing humans through other methods either
I heard about synthetic meat too
I always imaged factories with growing meat walls
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This is an excellent argument.
I often complain to the people pushing internet petitions that this is Occupy, not MoveOn.
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Why?
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Sorry :( I've been trying to tweak the forum code to be better about that. But I've got a demanding job at Google, a business to run on the side, a non-profit organization, social media, and a million other things to worry about. I don't even have time to do normal girl stuff. It's sad.
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That sounds pretty neat, I'll take a look into it :)
It's really "neat!" I know my friends raved over it too, and sent off emails to other people telling them how good it was. They have performances every day this week except Tuesday the 10th. Then next week they have shows on Tues, Wed, & Thurs the 19th which is the last one. They are hoping that someone will see it so it can run longer somewhere else maybe.
Go to www.judson.org for tickets. There are some nice places to eat nearby too, but ...errr I don't know about vegan
We owe you anarchists a debt of gratitude for having woken us up, but there are a lot of old activists in NY, and the pastor of that church is one of them that knows most of the others. My point, maybe we can pick up some ideas on how to reinvigorate this movement.
First and foremost though, just enjoy a night out with your friends. That other shit can wait. Good Night.
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Who?
That's because they wanted the domain for themselves. They were upset that some hideous lowly trans women dared to have power in the movement.
Justine the clandestinely evil authoritarian.
He can play the part of Emmanuel Goldstein.
Well I do have a job for a giant corporation. So maybe that makes me a sell out? I tried to not have a job for a while, but I found out that not working for the capitalists in this country = death and no one wants to fund some crazy anarchist girl who wants to write code all day for some decision making tool.
I only have so much time to put towards various projects
but having money is always good
Yep :) and I've got a lot of it these days.
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Website seems down. So why am I an anarchist poser again?
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Whoa I don't think you understand me very well. I don't really care about having authority, controlling people, exacting retribution, being feared, and all that stuff. I'm a very simple person. All I want to do is just sit around and write code all day and get high and eat ice cream. I'm also not very good at system administration, I'm so much more a software engineer. So it just makes my life miserable to have to wage these 24/7 interrupt-driven battles with persistent threats online.
That makes perfect sense to me.
Every coder's, not a hacker and every hacker isn't a coder.
And really. trashy's not so much a hacker as he is a manipulative hack.
Persistent, but still a hack.
Ain't that the truth?
How simple life could be if we didn't have to deal with contrary arseholes, who never got past the anal stage of mental development.
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I disagree. Thrasy is very smart and clever. He's a fucking prick; but I give credit where credit is due to people who can put me on guard. He's also not the first person to declare war against me online.
The first time it happened was when I was 15. I had just written this chat network from scratch in VB6. I had just moved away from AOL and still wanted to be able to hang out in chatrooms talking to all my fans and followers who had been heavy users of programs I had previously written like Rampage Toolz. My chat network was really cool. It only supported a single chatroom, you could customize the style of your text, and there was even a cool little mspaint looking drawing board on the righthand side of the window so we could all take turns drawing silly things. And then one some jerk came along and decided to start fucking with me. He would scroll long blocks of text to the room so I needed to add throttling, he would look for ways to abuse the hypertext rendering of the text so he could make goofy things show up, and he even went so far as deciphering the network protocol I designed and created his own alternative server. He would then invite people to use my chat program to connect to his server. Except I was stupid and I coded the program so that the saved password field didn't get cleared when you changed the server, so he was able to steal the passwords of my friends, and then login with their identity to my server and start posing. I didn't know any of this was happening until he asked me to login to his server... but I was smart and right before I clicked connect I realized what he was trying to do and wrote "fuck you" in the password field.
The second time it happened, I was 22. I had just written all the telecom systems and websites for this calling card provider and some kid from decided to start fucking with me. He pulled all the usual stunts like pen testing, DDOS, hammering the phone systems with calls, never actually rooting any the servers, and forced me to spend like half a year being on guard and coding tocket bucket algorithms and shit to thwart his attacks. He was very smart, so clever in fact that I was surprised when I found out who he was and learned that he was a loser. And then he started harassing me as a person and I learned that the reason he was unsuccessful was because he was a horrible person on the inside and wasn't just fucking with me "for sport" like the last guy.
And the third advanced persistent threat was thrasy. His technical attacks were annoying, but I found it interesting how he tried to "exploit" me in the psychological sense by spending so much time talking to me on the forum trying to get into my head... perhaps thinking my political zeal was a weakness.
If you're wondering why I don't attack back... It's just not me!
It's fun to have power sometimes, but I've never really had the heart to use my power to hurt people. I don't want to hurt people! Like to give you an example, when I was 14 and first learned that I had mad skillz on the compy, I used to do all sorts of criminal stuff without actually crossing the line that would make me evil. I would steal thousands of credit cards... just to say I could, without actually using them. I would hack into personal computers and company servers, then immediately get scared and log out. I can tell you these things because the statute of limitations no longer apply.
But after a few years, doing illegal stuff just for fun (because I could get away with it) got old. Around age 17, I knew that getting caught would mean more than a slap on the wrist and I had a wonderful life of legitimacy as a software engineer to look forward to. So I straightened out.
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This is why you get respect and he doesn't.
Thanks for confirming my belief that he's something of an over grown AOL chatroom script kiddie.
(Replying here because we've hit the threshold)
IIRC thrasy used to be a professional software engineer but then he retired to Thailand or some less developed nation where everything's cheap and he could live like a king without having to work.
So he's more than an overgrown script kiddie. He's a pro (although second-rate at best) who just decided to cut loose and live selfishly... and then his idle hands became the tools of the devil.
I've been toying with the idea how people must aggressively keep their jobs whether it benefits society or not because they must pay rent
Self arrested development.
Clever perhaps, but not that smart.
I can appreciate a couple of points you made in you comment - but think you go to far in others. That would be my opinion.
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Your conversation is with jart - I had my two cents ( opinion ) to toss in - what understanding you and jart come to - is - between - you & jart.
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Switch their MSM TV off and stop using their language, dude and ''killing'' Ass-head will NOT solve this situation now that the FUKUS & Saudi & other local despots ''cry havoc and let slip the dogs of war'' !!!
So jart has a rant in her forum-post and what - it gives the rest of us a license to brain-spasm ?!! Ok, in that case I'll have a ''WHAAAAAAAA'' too ! Now lets open minds and hearts and more coolly consider :
http://occupywallst.org/forum/for-hope-and-democracy/#comment-1001097 & see :
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article36148.htm .
As Robert Reich says from a link in the first url above : ''We are paralyzed at home — as we turn our attention to a potential quagmire abroad. This is the great tragedy of our time.''
Further to quote Dennis Kucinich from the same url above : ''The American people have a right to a full release and vetting of all facts before their elected representatives are asked to make a decision of great consequence for America, Syria and the world. Congress must be provided answers prior to the vote, in open hearings, not in closed sessions where information can be manipulated in the service of war. We've been there before. It's called Iraq.''
Finally from Ralph Nader : ''If and when the people and Congress turn you down this month, there will be one silver lining. Only a Right/Left coalition can stop this warring. Such convergence is strengthening monthly in the House of Representatives to stop future war crimes and the injurious blowback against America of the wreckages from Empire. History teaches that Empires always devour themselves.''
veritas vos liberabit ...
History teaches that Empires always devour themselves
Truth.
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LOL, don't take it too personally dude but continuously banging on about ''killing'' (inter alia) Assad IS 'brain farting' and the worry is that you'll follow through lol !!! NOT with the ''killing'' (tho' we must face it that the U$A does do a whole lot of that) - but with the 'farting' {didn't I use 'spasm'?} or even following through thereafter !! Eeeeuw + scrunched up face, lol ! Thanx for opening the second ICH link though.
Syria had free universal healthcare and education to university level. It was really very far from being a 'third world country'. Despotism needed to end and there were moves and talks about to happen as 'The Arab Spring' had sprung but any peaceful transition to much more representative system of government absolutely did NOT suit some interests for reasons complex & simple all at the same time (do see that first link above again). There are few ''Syrian Anarchist'' voices to be heard now that real fkn anarchy with added guns has come to pass in one of the oldest areas of civilisation but here's a voice worth hearing :
So re. all your talk of ''killing'' and the like - not to mention your apparent wearing of ex-army jackets (did I get that right from your 'finger' photo ?) ... are you a 'vet' dude ? You don't have to answer of course but you do seem to talk about 'killing' a lot so I was kinda wondering and YES, TPTB are the 'real terrorists'.
fiat lux, fiat justitia, fiat pax ...
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I hold that The 1% are lackeys of the real oligarch, plutocrat, kleptocrat - Parasite Class, who are sub-0.01% and yes, TPTB make a cost/benefit analysis and will always come down on the side of money, resorces and power because they are followers of 'The Prophets Of Profit' (Neoliberal, Chicago School, 'Austrian' nutjobs) & of Imperialism and they can easily ascribe a monetary value on human life and our ecosystem and act in a manner where Mammon is their only master ... so I agree with your points 1-4.
Obomber will hit the TV stations tomorrow (Monday, 9th Sept.) to follow the pro-war, video-dossier that has been compiled for the US public and 'their' politicians. War is upon us because the SOB's who so very desperately want it are ''all in'' and doubling up, now that they think that they are approaching their endgame on Syria which is in its turn their start on Iran. Shit is NOT looking good and I'm getting a bad feeling. Ho hum, pax vobiscum & I append fyi :
''Pentagon Plans Massive Attack on Syria'', by Bill Van Auken : http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article36149.htm ;
''Does Obama Have A Legal Right To Bomb Syria?'', by Ted Rall : http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article36151.htm ;
''High-Level U.S. Intelligence Officers : Syrian Government Didn’t Launch Chemical Weapons'', by 'WashingtonsBlog' : http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article36155.htm ;
http://truth-out.org/opinion/item/18682-on-the-fence-about-syria-read-this and closely consider ..
http://truth-out.org/news/item/18604-making-the-world-safe-for-banksters-syria-in-the-crosshairs !
TPTB don't care that Assad is a bastard - they care very much that he is not their bastard. I disagree with your #5 because our 'support for war' is what They desire and I can not accede to that. They don't care about dead civilians or dead kids 'ZD' - all they care about is power, geo-politics, resources & the reconstruction contracts that they hope will follow. When the economy sucks, war is their best answer.
fiat lux et pax nunc ...
we went to war due to entertainment and other jobs not employing enough people ?
''Act Now! - Say No To War On Syria'' :
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article36099.htm &
http://www.house.gov/representatives/ .
fiat pax ...
the US congress is only fooling themselves if they think we support attacks on foreign nations
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Your entire argument is built around a proven elitist supporter and war criminal being a figure of hope at some point. We have got to figure out things that are not contingent on some person in a position of authority deciding its time to be fair.
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I mean you are literally endorsing war because you think it will better the chances of someone- who has proven in public to not give one shit about that very same public- to do something, some fantasy you have.
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"he has apparently turned to chemical weapons."
That information is based off of state run media. For all we know over here, there was no attack at all.
All they had to release before was "weapons of mass destruction", a cave dwelling mastermind, and then with Libya "threatening his own people".
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But for every power tripping lunatic you kill. another handful all rise up to the top.
Its why I would prefer to eliminate those powers all together. No person should have the power to sign something in a far off land and determine anything over anyone else.
I realize you dont think anarchism can feed the people. Which one of the following do you support:
http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/town/street/pl38/sect2.htm
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"anarchism cannot even produce an internet forum that can govern itself in a manner that all perceive as fair and balanced."
Ok, so honestly, which one of those systems do you think provides the best chances for humanity?
one in which it is illegal to kill
You have NO right to demand honesty from anyone else, when honesty from you has never been forthcoming.
Not once!!!
How about your involvement with the gangland style activities of the soap opera of the banned, of which you are a member?
Or will feign denial, like you did over posting links to the John Birch Society and Breitbart??
You?
Asking honesty from anyone else??
PPfffftt!@you!
Try a little yourself.
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Simply replacing one criminal with another isnt "eating themselves", its rearranging the seats on the deck.
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we support them
Caution!
You don't even have a notion
About the desperate need for this motion
Stop drinking your Democrat potion
The planet's ills won't be cured by that lotion
We need to fight
For what's right
To end this plight
Before day turns to night
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A Tale of a Whale
Saturday, 28 September 2013 09:37 By Randy Malamud, Truthout | Op-Ed
http://truth-out.org/opinion/item/18954-a-tale-of-a-whale
The state of Montana will soon make a decision that is critical to bison recovery around Yellowstone National Park.
Tell Montana to do the right thing.
For years, Yellowstone's wild bison have been restricted to a small and inadequate amount of habitat in and around Yellowstone National Park — and now they desperately need more room to roam!
One of the current proposals would open additional large areas of public lands in Southwestern Montana year-round to Yellowstone bison. Because bison are regularly rounded up and sent to slaughter when they roam outside the national park, providing these new lands is critical to ending this terrible policy and allowing for their full recovery.
Montana is accepting comments now through September 13th on the proposal to expand wild bison habitat outside of Yellowstone National Park.
Please take action — tell Montana officials to let bison have year-round access to additional suitable habitat outside Yellowstone National Park.
The bison is one of America's most iconic animals. Vast herds once carpeted the Great Plains before they were hunted to the brink of extinction. The return of bison is one of the great American conservation success stories — but it's a story that is unfinished.
Please don't miss this important opportunity to speak up — the deadline for comments is just days away.
Thank you for all you have done for our beloved bison.
Sincerely, Jonathan Proctor, Defenders of Wildlife
Defenders of Wildlife leads the pack when it comes to protecting wild animals and plants in their natural communities »
There is no animal holocaust. Animals eat animals. Always have, always will. Human animals need to consume vitamin B12 in order to maintain health and vitamin B12 can only be naturally obtained from the bacteria to inhabit animals. Perhaps with genetic engineering humans can be engineered to produce B12 like chimpanzees but that would be unnatural. Humans could also obtain B12 from animal products like milk and eggs but that still involves the subjugation of animals to obtain it. Then there's just feeding upon animals that either die on their own or are killed by predators but that would involve the risk of consuming diseased animals or stealing from other animals just doing what they naturally have to do to live. Besides, there just wouldn't be enough animals dying on their own to sustain the size of the current human population.
Life only has the value we place upon it which is why no one is advocating for the preservation of plant life. We would all have to simply lay down and die if we truly valued all life to the point of not taking life. Only plants can live up to the standard of not taking life to live and only plants are universally consumed by other life.
Animal life doesn't have to be slaughtered for human consumption but animal life of some type does have to be subjugated by humans to obtain the B12 products required for human life. The products of animal life can be obtained humanely or inhumanely but they will always be obtained and the issue of animal preservation will never take priority over the issues of human rights and preservation.
B12 is found naturally on dirty vegetables. But modern humans wash veggies before eating them, so we need to get it from animals or supplement it. There are vegan b12 supplements available.
So your point is invalid because it's possible to get our b12 without hurting animals. We have the choice to not cause harm. Therefore we're compelled to not cause harm.
B12 is found in the soil that plants grow in and therefore comes from the dirt, not the plants, and is never adequately supplied by dirty vegetables. Thus, ancient or modern, humans have always obtained B12 from animal sources. B12 suppliments are derived from humanly cultivated bacteria and therefore are not naturally derived products available to all humans to either retain or chose to maintain a natural lifestyle living off the land. So your point is invalid since you can't consume bacteria without causing them harm, placing a negligible value on the lives of the oldest organisms to have a global biomass that outweighs all other life.
We have the choice to live as naturally as we have done for hundreds of thousands of years and in doing so either humanely or inhumanely as the only thing we are compelled to do is to survive.
Bacteria has rights? Now you're just being silly.
No sillier than animals having rights. Like plants and bacteria, animals don't recognize rights for themselves and they don't demand rights for themselves. Only humans recognize and declare rights for themselves and only humans determine whether or not and under what conditions to declare rights for other animals.
Good, so you recognize the fact that human rights were "made up" by humans as a way of protecting ourselves from violence. After all one must consider the primitive days of human history. Back in those days—just like animals—we didn't consider ourselves to have rights. The notion hadn't been invented yet.
So what would happen in your opinion if a bunch of humans such as myself started declaring that animals also have rights, just as we decided humans should have, and then we went around shutting down the factory farms and slaughterhouses, thereby forcing the rest of humanity to yield to our declaration.
Would animals then have rights?
Yes, in the very same way that medieval lords had the right to bed peasant brides on their wedding nights, the animals would have rights. A social right is an enforced privilege and anyone who has the power to enforce their declarations, forcing the rest of humanity to yield to them, certainly has the power to establish the social rights of their choice for animals. By that standard, "Might makes Right".
But that also brings into question the nature of the rights if they're only to be selectively enforced. Would wild deer have the right not be harmed by wild wolves? Would flies have the right not to be harmed by spiders? Would an animal's natural rights be prohibited for the cause of human declared social rights for animals? Would the human natural rights of the Jutwasi and the Inuit and the Yanomami likewise be violated for the cause of human declared social rights for animals? Would Jews be prohibited from observing Pasach with a lamb or Muslims prohibited from observing the Eid al-Adha? And if so, in having the power to force all of humanity to yield to your declaration of rights for animals, will you endorse the use of the lethal force required against all the religious people who will engage in lethal force to defend their perceived 'god-given' obligations to sacrifice animals to their deities? Would human life be taken to enforce the declared rights of animals? Would a human in the domestic killing of an animal suffer the same legal fate as in the killing of another human?
Dude all I'm saying is I want to shut down the factory farms and take meat off the market so people won't be able to find it so easily in grocery stores and restaurants. Now you're talking about talking about forcing animals to change their habits and forcing human individuals to change their religious habits? Why are you such an extremist?
I simply responded to your proposal for my consideration.
If my response is construed as being extremist in simply asking questions, in what way is it any more extremist than the proposal I was responding to of "forcing the rest of humanity to yield to our declaration"?
If "animals also have rights, just as we decided humans should have" then animals would have rights of protection from other animals, not just from humans. Afterall, we don't officially declare humans as being legally protected from just certain humans. The benefits of a right fully applies to all who have it, not partially.
Taking meat off the market automatically forces segments of urban living human individuals to change their religious habits involving the purchase and consumption of meat for obligatory religious occasions. Now, either that's extremist or it isn't but I'm not the one to have proposed it. What is extremist is the declaration
There's no reason that any cause has to be put on the back-burner for another cause. All causes can be simultaneously pursued and no cause requires the complete support of all activists.
You're completely missing the point. I'm only advocating that we infringe on the liberty of only a small handful of people running industrial meat production companies. I'm not telling anyone else to change their ways. I'm not saying we should we should have a vegetarian gestapo running around and making sure no individual is hunting or eating meat at the dinner table. The worst you could say is that I want to indirectly force people to not eat meat by making it harder to find. If you don't understand that this is the point I'm trying to make then you're either dimwitted or trolling.
I don't know where you got this idea that animals have the right of protection from other animals. You non-anarchists are so obsessed with leviathan that you instantly assume my logical conclusion to "shut down factory farms" will be "POLICE THE ANIMAL KINGDOM!"
Even by the beliefs you hold I could argue this is wrong simply by asking whether or not we have a responsibility as Americans to keep Syrians safe. We've decided that humans have rights and some group we don't like is taking them away. So why shouldn't we bomb them? We should keep them safe just like we kept the Iraqis safe from Sadam. Right?
If I'm completely missing the point it's only because you have missed stating it. FACT: you never mentioned merely 'indirectly' forcing people not to eat meat. You clearly presented a scenario involving "forcing the rest of humanity to yield to our declaration". FACT: in the scenario you presented, you mentioned "animals also have rights, just as we decided humans should have". You never qualified what you meant by that leaving me to respond only to what you had written. If you had meant something other than what you had written about "rights, just as we decided humans should have", you should have clearly stated it rather than leaving your statement open to be taken at face value.
As for my beliefs, I clearly haven't mentioned holding to any beliefs by which you could therefore argue a subject. What I have done is simply question the nature of the proposal you put to me for consideration. If your point is that you're "only advocating that we infringe on the liberty of only a small handful of people running industrial meat production companies" then you should have clearly and simply stated that rather than adversely reacting to my response to the extremist worded scenario you had proposed for my consideration.
Ok so your goal is to be contrarian and pull strawmans rather than having an understanding and respectful discussion.
And you base that on what specifically?
If I told you that "you're either dimwitted or trolling" would that be the kind of respectful discussion you're looking for?
I was getting frustrated. Sorry for being mean.
that's like saying
if the US didn't lead the world in gun sales
less people would be shot
No don't be silly. We're talking about 150,000,000,000 murders each years, the majority of which are committed by a handful of corporations. If we shut down those corporations by force, then maybe only a fifteen billion animals will be murdered each year. An order of a magnitude less murder would be terrific progress in my opinion! That's like the difference between 1500's and 2000's in terms of human homicide rates.
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Shutting down the factory farms I would love. Determining what products people can sell and/or not seems like it might lead to some unintended consequences down the road.
Why?
It's not the first time we told people they couldn't sell products. Several generations ago, we told the people in the lower half of the country that they couldn't sell or own Africans anymore. I'd say the consequences of that decision were pretty good. A lot of people died, but these days Africans can live freely just like the rest of us. Give it a few hundred more years, black people will be a little more white and white people will be a little more brown. The characteristics we use to divide ourselves from the rest of humanity will no longer apply and we'll realize that we were the same all along. This is good!
With animals it's different because they're not like us. So it's going to be a new skill that humanity will have to learn. We just learned to live in harmony with our kind, and soon enough we'll also learn that we can also exist in harmony with other kinds if we choose. I don't know what it'll take. Perhaps it'll be a more pantheistic realization that we're all made of the same stuff. Or perhaps frankenmeat.
First paragraph I agree completely, and I see the relationship.
Would the next step after animals be plants, technically living, carbon based beings?
If anything is going to do it, imo it will be the frankenfoods and the educational outreach by groups like MAM educating the public.
The next step wouldn't be plants because making the choice to not harm plants anymore would come at severe costs:
Our health. I'm not sure if it's possible to live healthily on a fructarian diet. There's a lot of science to prove that being a vegan with supplements and proper diet is actually more healthy than the traditional american diet, but the same scientific consensus isn't there for fructarianism.
Industrial society. It would not be possible without harming plants. We wouldn't be able to make any of the shit we love. Plain and simple self-evident truth.
The death of billions of people. Growing fruit requires much more land. Fruit crops are far less efficient than modern maize and wheat crops. If we could no longer grow the efficient crops that enabled the population to grow so large, it would require a massive die off.
No one is willing to pay these costs to save plants. So it's just tough luck for them. On the other hand, shutting down industrial meat production will actually save human lives and allow the human population to grow larger.
Ping, Just edited my comment.
Small problem with that - 1st you better get an AWESOME alternative out there for meat lovers ( practically everyone ) - AS - no AWESOME alternative? = Black Market Meat and prison time for offenders - wild meat ummm animals will be in more danger than ever before.
Just Sayin
Look how nasty the criminalization of marijuana has gotten. A safe non-toxic drug - but also a plant with many beneficial uses to society other than as a safe recreational drug.
I never said that I wanted to enforce a ban on meat products. Like I keep saying, I just want to shut down a handful of companies like Tyson that do industrial meat production. If people want to go hunting, I don't care because I'm willing to bet people will be lazy and choose not to go hunting. And even if people go hunting en masse they'll have to follow hunting regulations. So people won't get in trouble for having meat, they'll get in trouble for hunting endangered species and out of season. People will also be turned off by the putrid taste of wild meat like venison which will further discourage meat consumption. So ultimately things will go back to how they were traditionally throughout human history. People will eat a diet consisting of mostly plants, and then save up their money so once a week or so they can buy prohibitively expensive meat from some shady guy in an alleyway who went to the trouble of hunting so you wouldn't. They might also grab a fishing pole and go to the beach, and then realize, oh wait everyone else is doing this, fuck that.
The point is that no matter what happens, shutting down industrial meat production will save lives. In fact it might actually be strategic because when people start acting anti-social and ravaging shared spaces out of desperation for meat, people will get upset and place blame on their neighbors who are doing this and call out for stricter controls on hunting. It's much better when you can be angry at people in your own community rather than some abstract unknown entity that works silently in the background to kill billions of animals each year so the supermarkets magically have meat in stock.
EDIT: and stopping the practices of Corp(se)oRATion breeding & Raising centers.
OK - thanks - I did not see the qualifiers before - the qualifiers about stopping the practices of major corp(se)oRATion slaughter houses/Processing centers.
True - the crap that is fed to these poor animals - goes into us - the chemicals the meat is treated with during processing - goes into us.
Well also take a look at the gifs that I've posted in this thread. Some countries are so poor that they export grain for money rather than feeding it to their hungry citizens. They sell it to western cattle so white people can eat meat three times a day.
I Know - RIGHT??? WTF
China processes and exports chicken. Hell Their people are starving ( large portion of the population anyway )
What the Hell is any country with a portion of their population starving - just what the hell are they doing exporting " ANY " food?
The right to marry?
That's just plain crazy talk
http://www.eatwild.com/index.html
What's wrong with that?
and can this message be copy pasta.....d? copy pasta (past tense) just made up. http://lists.occupy.net/lists/arc/s17-discussion/2013-08/msg00289.html
That flawed idea comes from the Paleo diet. The flawed concept of what our ancestors ate. Truth is, the diet(s) of our ancestors changed through time. They constantly cultivated stuff by cross-breeding. Most of the food you know, even the food in nature today, did not exist before we cross bred it. Tomatoes were poisonous, bananas had too many seeds to be eaten, etc... The dichotomy of wild foods vs human made foods is much more complex than this.
We have no "original diet". Not only did our diet(s) constantly change throughout the ages, we also changed as well. Our nutritional requirements changed when our DNA changed. Our ancestors did not eat more nutritionally rich diets than we do, the opposite is true. Our ancestors were much smaller, weaker. And, of course, the diets of people was different all around the world depending on the types of foods they had to eat.
If you really care about this topic, I highly suggest you listen to this TED talk. It will open your eyes to the truth.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMOjVYgYaG8
No. It contains a list of farms to buy meat. Farm to table. I don't do TED.
Secondly, I eat mostly Mediterranean food. My recent ancestors came from there.
You should do TED. You should listen to that 20 minute talk. Don't be scared of educating yourself. It doesn't matter if your ancestors came from the Mediterranean, they ate different foods in the past. And, the further you go back, the more different those foods were and their DNA was. Listen to that TED talk. Why not learn we you can?
You asked what was wrong with your link, the TED talk explains that very well.
You should try the Mediterranean diet. Don't be afraid to learn.
I don't do TED talks.
You shouldn't ask questions if you don't want the answers.
What did I just say?
The point of the link is that it has the farms which are not factory farms. It has a list of farms in all of the states. Get over yourself.
A different kind of frankenburger.
http://phys.org/news/2013-09-dutch-vegetarian-butcher-frankenburger.html#ajTabs
Modest Mouse - King Rat
How about along with? There is much to address - but getting corp(se)oRATions under control and out of government will help immensely "any/every" good act/action going forward.
Such as: ( many technologies that go towards eliminating waste and pollution )
An interesting episode all of the way through - BUT - at 43 minutes - it talks about liquid metal batteries.
Making Stuff: Cleaner
Aired: Aug 28, 2013
We can always protest "along with" since that's what occupy is all about. We keep it decentralized.
But many organizers in the movement have been making a push to focus efforts for the 2nd year anniversary largely around opposing TPP. If we're going to push other things aside to focus on solving one problem together, I think it should be the animal holocaust instead.
I can see the validity of your thought. But I also see knocking down corp(se)oRAT control as the more immediate issue if we are going to make progress on saving all life from global-warming climate-change.
Climate change is a huge issue. It might be even more important than the animal holocaust. We can always fix the animal holocaust down the road, but not if we've destroyed the planet. There's no turning back from that.
TRUTH - the animal issue is huge - but - if we are all dead it won't really matter. Down with Corp(se)oRAT rule.
We can stop dropping bombs today
-- Kirk in 'A Taste Of Armageddon'
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And this comment makes it clear to me why you were banned. Either learn to live with the mods, make an intelligent argument why you're being treated unfairly, or find another forum.
We could start by protesting ALECs ag gag legislation.
If the public sees these things they WILL get behind cleaning it up.
To keep it all hidden away, is why ALEC wrote the bills.
Renneye! This message is meant for you. I can't send PMs with a new user, so let me do it here.
To answer your question. I don't really know. I'm just testing the waters at this point. Sometimes, it's the best way to find out the truth. The reaction can speak a thousand words.
It would seem, so far, that you're correct. We'll soon see.
Sure would be a nice change of events!
I'm heading out for a bit.
Thanks.
You've obviously mistaken me for someone else.
Be that as it may, here's a little something closer to the topic at hand.
http://www.motherjones.com/tom-philpott/2013/09/corn-and-beef-sucking-high-plains-dry
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In order to stop eating animals we must first try and stop animals from eating each other. Which is impossible, thats why I feel nothing when I eat a burger. Reality never was pretty.
Yea but you have a choice to not eat the burger. Animals don't really have a choice.
What's lacking now is the original creativity that Occupy had at first.
Here, the great Yogi Berra explains both Occupy and jazz;
Interviewer: What do you expect is in store for the future of jazz trumpet?
Yogi: I'm thinkin' there'll be a group of guys who've never met talkin' about it all the time...
Interviewer: Can you explain jazz?
Yogi: I can't, but I will. 90% of all jazz is half improvisation. The other half is the part people play while others are playing something they never played with anyone who played that part. So if you play the wrong part, its right. If you play the right part, it might be right if you play it wrong enough. But if you play it too right, it's wrong.
Interviewer: I don't understand.
Yogi: Anyone who understands jazz knows that you can't understand it. It's too complicated. That's whats so simple about it.
Interviewer: Do you understand it?
Yogi: No. That's why I can explain it. If I understood it, I wouldnt know anything about it.
Interviewer: Are there any great jazz players alive today?
Yogi: No. All the great jazz players alive today are dead. Except for the ones that are still alive. But so many of them are dead, that the ones that are still alive are dying to be like the ones that are dead. Some would kill for it.
Interviewer: What is syncopation?
Yogi: That's when the note that you should hear now happens either before or after you hear it. In jazz, you don't hear notes when they happen because that would be some other type of music. Other types of music can be jazz, but only if they're the same as something different from those other kinds.
Interviewer: Now I really don't understand.
Yogi: I haven't taught you enough for you to not understand jazz that well.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EftKRpahYP8
What's not to understand?
What kind of feedback are you getting from the real occupiers? I mean those who will help you organize the 2nd anniversary, those on the discussion lists of occupy.net and reedit. Are they interested in your idea?
I really hope it works out. The second anniversary is coming fast. Can't wait to see the new poster, I hope it's inspired by your idea!
OH Gawdddd could U suck on her ass a little bit harder in Ur attempt 2 seem real? jart? should I hit "it" ? Or call the police or both? I have got to go with hitting "it" at the very least.
No need to troll man. I'm honest about this. I think her idea is great. We need to save the planet. It's crucial at this point. You can disagree, that's fine. Just express yourself with counter-arguments if you do. No need to troll.
Wow - Now " THAT " is a discussion U should of had with Ur self a couple of years ago. Ta Daaaaa - break thru - well kinda - if U only knew it was U.
You're a moderator, and you're polluting jart's posting with your inane ramblings in the style of 12-year-old-girl-SMSs. Even if you think I'm a troll, that makes no sense. Moderators don't troll. They are supposed to keep discussions on topic. My post above was on topic. You came here to troll it. Be a moderator. Be an adult. Either you ban what you find trollish, or you ignore it. Don't reply to what you consider trollish with more trolling if you're a moderator!
Ummmmmm sorry jart - slapping down the eternal shill which is trying to use your post. It's Bad. Well Hell Ur not My Bad!!!
Not trying to use her post. I'm the only one here who actually addressed it in detail. I have a few comments here that make suggestions for jart. I clarify certain points for shadz66. You, on the other hand, only came here to troll. You have made no on-topic contributions at all. Look at the root comment in this short thread. It's by me and it's on topic. You then came and trolled it. It makes no sense that you are a moderator. You act like a teenager using a forum for the first time, not like a mod.
O shut the fuck up U piece of shit. Do us all a favor - start Ur own 4um.
See, now you're soiling it with profanity. More trolling. Why? Do you have anything to add to jart's topic? Anything at all?
O shut the fuck up U diseased piece of shit. Do us all a favor - start Urine own 4um.
You should stop trolling. Using profanity and your 12-year-old-girl-SMS writing style makes you look non serious. That's probably why you lost your moderating privileges. You're a troll, not a mod.
By one definition, a troll is a user who gets repeatedly banned, and returns under a new guise, to do the same things that got him banned in the first place.
A behavior that also fits the classic definition of an idiot.
If you're trashy, as you claim to be. let's see your collection of previously posted porn pics.
Only the REAL trashy would still have them..
Ummmmm why don't we just leave it as "it" is a scum sucking shill/troll/sell-out/quisling.
Petty distraction, works well enough for me.
I was just checking in before I go to bed and I see whoever it might be, is just as issue free as ever.
Just as dishonest too.
LOL - G-Night.
I never posted porn. That's one of your many lies. Ask jart, she'll confirm.
As for a troll being someone who was banned and came back, then why was he banned in the first place? There's no reason to ban anybody if it's impossible to be a troll before being banned and coming back.
OK. I won't reply to anymore of your trolling. I'm done with you guys. You're simply not interesting. Just a waste of time.
You should contribute to jart's posting as I have instead of trolling it. Don't you get tired of trolling all the users on this forum?
I don't know who YOU are. That's why I requested the pics.
I know trashy did post porn though. I saw it. A big bunch of it.
He denied it ever since, but there it was, plain as day, with his nameplate all over it.
I almost believed he was innocent, but his subsequent behavior belied anything of the sort.
I don't believe you to be that person, so I was just asking for definitive proof..
Trolls have been banned for any number of reasons. I can't recall even one of them realizing what the reason was. I guess that egotism, is part and parcel to being a troll. I can't recall a single one of them ever modifying their behavior, upon their return either.
You fit that bill too.
You should at least admit that you a troll, worthy of any oldtimey AOL chatroom script kiddie.
Edit : NICE but totally wasted on the idiot - I suspect. But - Still - Nice.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Internet)
That fits you to a T.
Along with all the members of the soap opera of the banned.
How are you doing on your research in N. Carolina?
Now well, I would have to suspect.
Talk 2 Ur hand it understands and cares 4 U.
This is going nowhere. You're still trolling jart's thread instead of bringing contributions like I have. It's a good thing you lost your moderating privileges. You were harming this forum, not helping it. You're a troll, not a mod.
I won't be responding to your trolling anymore. I want to use this forum for serious contributions. Feel free to respond, but this is the last time I communicate with you, with shooz, and with GF. You are all trolls. Only here to troll, soil the forum with profanity, with 12-year-old-girl-SMS-style writings, and partisan nonsense.
Take care. The banned are free to discuss seriously now. No need to waste more time with your childish shenanigans.
And - YET - Here U R - not adding anything 2 her thread - the thread which U fucked-up starting with:
Could U B any more full of SHIT ???
BTW - U must have missed this:
[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (421) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 day ago
How about along with? There is much to address - but getting corp(se)oRATions under control and out of government will help immensely "any/every" good act/action going forward.
Such as: ( many technologies that go towards eliminating waste and pollution )
An interesting episode all of the way through - BUT - at 43 minutes - it talks about liquid metal batteries.
Making Stuff: Cleaner
Aired: Aug 28, 2013
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[-] 1 points by jart (1043) from New York, NY 1 day ago
We can always protest "along with" since that's what occupy is all about. We keep it decentralized.
But many organizers in the movement have been making a push to focus efforts for the 2nd year anniversary largely around opposing TPP. If we're going to push other things aside to focus on solving one problem together, I think it should be the animal holocaust instead.
↥twinkle ↧stinkle reply permalink
I will reply here with some ideas knowing that you will be able to read them even after they are banned by our site's totalitarian pro-Democrat useless moderators.
As I said, I agree with your idea 100%. However, I think you should frame it a tad differently.
First, it should be about the fauna and flora. We already have PETA for animals. We don't need to create another version of that. What we need is to fight for our entire planet's survival.
We need to educate people on the basic concept of biodiversity and the interconnectedness between flora and fauna in nature.
If you read sadz66's comment above, you'll not only realize it is completely off the mark, but will also realize that it has received many points. That's because your idea that humans are simply another animal is not one that is accepted by most in society, even though science shows that it's true in its largest sense. There are many reasons for this, mostly that religion and conspiracy theories still prevail over science in most parts of the world. For this reason, you shouldn't frame your fight as one of moral integrity, even though it is. You'll simply not be able to rally many people by your side in this manner. The proof is there aren't that many vegetarians around even though it's the right thing to do.
No, what you need to do is frame it as a fight for our own survival. People are selfish. They care more about humans (themselves) than anything else. Truth is, we need the planet. Without it, we are doomed.
The good news is that because flora and fauna are so tightly connected, this means that killing of entire species is bad for the planet, which, in turn, means it's bad for our survival. This line of thought is not only correct, it also touches the selfish amongst us.
To destroy forests is to kill animals, to increase Global Warming. To destroy animals is also to kill fauna. There are mountains of scientific evidence to support this.
The following article would interest you. It's about the intelligence of beluga whales. Of course, this goes in the face of what I just explained. That is, we won't save the world by convincing people that animals are intelligent. There will also be some like shadz66 who will say we are more intelligent, so who cares? (Of course, he forgets that some people are not intelligent due to illnesses of the mind. However, I'm sure he wouldn't agree to simply kill those people. There dies his faulty logic.) No, I present this link only for your personal entertainment and interest. It's a good read.
http://www.earthisland.org/journal/index.php/elist/eListRead/evidence_of_beluga_intelligence_raises_questions_about_captivity/
Good luck with your idea. I really believe it is crucial. Don't let the people here turn it down. You know as well as I do that the users of this forum don't mean a thing for Occupy. They don't make decisions, so they don't matter. They don't even go to Occupy events, except for Odin and PeterPropotkin, which is why they were banned.
I personally wish Occupy was about world evolution focused on the take-down/transformation of irresponsible government and capitalism.
I'm primarily driven by loss of non-human life, and secondarily by human inequality. Effects of the system on nature is most heart wrenching. It's maddening. But it's a surface issue like everything else, meaning it cannot be killed (it will recur in time), until the root system is removed.
Switching from Wall Street to focus on animal genocide is like throwing a football over home plate.
Ok..gmo veggies bad.....engineered filet mignon good? Have I got it straight?
GMO veggies that have not had sufficient study done on the health and environmental impacts bad. If they follow in the trend left by Monsanto on engineering meat then also bad. If we have proper study by non interested parties showing it is safe then gene engineering is a great idea.
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http://www.vice.com/read/near-term-extinctionists-believe-the-world-is-going-to-end-very-soon
From the link:
"If you were to take a comparative look back at our planet during the 1950s from some sort of cosmic time-traveling orbiter cube, you would notice . . . over a million different species of plants and animals . . . that have since gone extinct. There would be 90 percent more fish . . . and 40 percent more phytoplankton (producers of half the planet’s oxygen) in the oceans. There would be twice as many trees covering the land and about three times more drinking water available from ancient aquifers."
Yep, I'd say it's definitely a serious issue.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear,_uncertainty_and_doubt
You're a concern troll. Stop it.
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Concern_troll
a lot of this board discusses the processes of the board
I couldn't log onto wiki the other day