Forum Post: HOW WE CAN WIN THIS: Where Occupy Wall Street Can Go From Here
Posted 13 years ago on Nov. 16, 2011, 8:38 p.m. EST by therising
(6643)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
I've spent plenty of time at Zuccotti Park. Loved the vibe. Met great people. Totally impressed. The G.A.'s are great. All this is fantastic but not an end in itself as some seem to imply.
I think many are advocating completely scrapping our system and I find it to be a naive and utopian approach, one that could squander much of the energy and good will that could be harnessed to create real change for real people on the ground.
I personally think these folks advocating scrapping our republic are throwing the baby out with the bath water. Yes, the bath water is dirty. So let's carefully lift the baby from the bath, drain the water and begin again with the baby intact. The baby is democracy / the republic. Radicals like Thomas Jefferson authored the American version of it during a momentous time.
Revolutionaries fought for it. Our great grandfathers, grandfathers and fathers defended it. Men and women involved in various movements (including the civil rights movement, women's movement, Native American movement, etc.) gave their time and energy to keep it honest. Labor movement has worked hard to keep it fair. Many have struggled. We are struggling now in an heroic way, following a great legacy of revolutionaries to keep it honest and fair. We haven't yet earned the right from the legacy of our ancestors to toss it all out. We can't toss it until we have a clear vision for what will replace it.
We can't be so transfixed by technology that we assume we can make a grand new world order out of the relationships created by social media. Why not use them, harness the power of the new collective consciousness some describe to remake our republic? We should form national general assembly and run our own candidates while at the same time occupying and transforming the market place. This baby is beautiful. Please don't throw her out with the dirty bath water.
To put it another way, just because somebody steals your bike doesn't mean you have to destroy the bike. You just need to remove the rider.
Let's remove the rider. Let's use active strategic nonviolent tactics ala Gene Sharp, Martin King, Jr. and Gandhi to transform this world. We can do this!
Couldn't we soon take the following decisive action that would make a real difference for real people and get the beast off our neck so we can engage in even larger change? http://occupywallst.org/forum/proposed-list-of-demands-please-help-editadd-so-th/
Rise.rise.rise.
This is the type of question that needs to be asked imho. Solution based thinking.
The way i see, be patient and persevere. 'Learn to adapt to the change, or get washed away like tears in the rain.'
I think a concerted effort needs to be made towards welcoming in people. I notice a number of posts that are valid have been 'disliked' to disappear. Why is this? Is this not an open forum for everyone to have their say? Is it a purposeful effort to silence a certain point of view? Who is doing it? People from OWS? Infiltrators? Just a good population of trolls out there?
Anyways, i think if people keep their resolve, maintain that positive, inspired energy and stay the course and if Occupy can remain focused and stay true, the movement still has great potential. If they can prove they are being transparent, and acting in the best interest of everyone.
Whether or not that will be the case, from where i sit, remains to be seen.
I'm on the edge of my seat right there with you. I like what you wrote here.
I don't think we should fettishize tactics or organizational forms or the nature of decision making. Figuring out how to make democracy is a complicated process. Right now I think a major focus should be on getting sleeping bags and tents back into Zuccotti Park. This is a real substantive issue. First there is the issue of real homelessness to deal with and the rights of the homeless to create as comfortable a space for themselves as possible. Second there is the issue that tents are as much free speech as is money.
All sounds very important to me. I agree.
Let's rise and shine and remove those who have hijacked our republic. No need to get rid of the republic.
I'd like to see an end to Human Trafficking, girls and children should not be bought and sold as sex slaves, that's just sick. It must end! Also, we are due for free health care, it's now or never.
The people are rising and can't be stopped. Nothing so powerful as an idea whose time has come.
Strategic advice at 1.5 million? This is what we have to choose from? Newt takes that much money for "consulting" and we have to pay for it! The system has to change. Opportunities for purchasing influence is the one and only issue to address at this time. First things First.
http://www.freep.com/article/20111117/NEWS07/111170448/Newt-Gingrich-paid-least-1-5-million-consulting-Freddie-Mac-official-says
You're right. This part of system has to change. How are you going to do that??????? How about http://occupywallst.org/forum/proposed-list-of-demands-please-help-editadd-so-th/
When you remove the rider. A new rider will climb up. As long as greed is rewarded with power, greedy people will grab that power. Something has to change. Just putting the blame on a small few and not fixing the under-laying cause is not going to make the problem go away.
Have you seen the film "Inside Job"?. Fairly straightforward, thoroughly researched documentary outlining the underlying causes of financial crisis. Widely respected. If you haven't check it out.
It is clear after seeing underlying causes of the financial crisis that so much human suffering is caused by an unregulated Wall St. Seriously. Let's speak in human practical "this is a short life so what am I going to do with it" kind of way.
We want to help the most people in the shortest amount of time right? We want to harness the energy of the millions who support OWS movement and make sure we help however we can to make sure something good and powerful results from it, right? We want this to all mean something because real people are suffering and there are practical things we can do related to hemming in the 1% that will have real positive results or real people on the ground.
In some ways, I see this as a two part process:
Get foot off our neck to allow some breathing room.
Push further with deeper change
It seems you are idealistic and want to skip to item 2 right away. Understand and sympathize in a way. And I hope we eventually get to resolve deeper issues as well. But to get there, we need item 1. And I think this would help is get there: http://occupywallst.org/forum/proposed-list-of-demands-please-help-editadd-so-th/
It seems you are idealistic and want to skip to item 2 right away. Understand and sympathize in a way.
Oh, i do realize we can't expect things to change instantly. But i'm just worried people fall back in non-action when there is some short-term fix.
Dude or dudette - Look. It ain't goin back to inaction. Have you carefully watched the video on www.occupywallst.org home page right now??? Do you see how many people are in the streets and what they're about to do? This thing is about to double in size. Because crackdown will ensue (Bloomberg and other authorities that stupid) and this grows movement.
Look at the news. It's getting bigger!
yes. very exciting
Incredible
So well said. When we achieve taking back our Representative Republic from the monied hands of the kleptocracy that now control it, the possibilities are endless in what we can do together as a nation.
Yes! I agree with those who say lets grow. I'm all for that. But I want to be sure all that growth is put to good use. I want to see us make decisions from a position of unified power rather than making demands from a position of divided weakness. I agree that once we the 99% realize we ARE the 99%, we will have the power. We've really had it all along. And it was absurd for the 1% to be ruling over us and exploiting us for so long. once we get that, our minds will be free and we'll gather encases to take our country back from those who have hijacked it.
All that said, don't you just feel like we should start focusing on large scale high impact direct action? Smaller stuff is essential and very important but so is the big stuff. Wouldn't it be great to Occupy Capitol Hill with 300,000 people?
As I've said before:
The entire Occupy movement should come down to DC and camp in Anacostia Park, site of the original Bonus March Encampment in 1932. Do what the Bonus Marchers did. Set up a clean, formal encampment. I'm sure there are enough sponsors who will pay for potties and showers.
Then, every day, all those at the encampment should get up at 6:30 a.m. and march down Maryland Avenue to the Capitol and spend the day visiting their Senators and Representatives. Every day until they get something done, like a nationwide Section 8 subsidy program so that everyone pays 1/3 of their monthly income for housing.
Let's get organized, Fellow Workers!
Right on!!
Honestly, I would like to see more protest, and less Direct Action. But thats just me. I realize this goes against the grain of OWS.
A large protest in DC would be wonderful. When should I book my ticket?
If that could someone happen I would be so happy. Because honestly, there are things happening here that are making me so sad. I was on a post yesterday that was full of communist imagery from OWS.
I don't get it? Is it just me?? Sorry, off subject.
DC - I'm in.
Cool. Glad your in :) I honestly think its a combination of protest and direct actions.. 100,000 people could be protesting and marching. 100,000 could be engaged in direct action. And the other 100,000 could be helping out at homeless shelters , soup kitchens etc etc etc. how's that for a plan ?
I could get on board with that!
Let me ask you something. Do you consider yourself an ethical person? Do you believe you live by a good set of values?
Is this the part where you start talking about Ayn Rand?
I believe I am a good and moral person. I'm not a good and moral person just because a law tells me to be. I am not good just to stay out of jail. Believe it or not, I am a Christian, baptized and everything. I do believe God values free will even when people disappoint Him. Its a hard thing, but a Christian sometimes has to leave the judging to God, forgive and move on. I try to respect people who try to do the right and ethical thing even if it is something I disagree with. I'd like to see more honest communication on this board over all.
You want to drive real reform? Address the root cause, not the symptoms. For decades now the corporations and special interests have had our "representatives" bought and paid for (both on the right and the left). Don't get distracted by the flashier topics. Concentrating our efforts on getting the money out of our politics is the best way we can create an environment in which further reforms can be realized. Until we end the current system of legalized bribery (campaign donations) and paid lobbying our politicians will continue to be the LAP DOGS of the corporations and special interests. What we need first and foremost is real, loop-hole free CAMPAIGN FINANCE REFORM!!!! If the corruption is not dealt with first, the chance of any other meaningful reforms becoming a reality is almost zero - the special interests will just use their money to buy votes and put forward bills that create loop-holes or otherwise twist the law in their favor. If we want our children to live in a country where there vote matters, we need to get the money out of our politics, otherwise they will increasingly become the 21st century version of the "landless peasant." Spread the word - End the LEGALIZED BRIBERY!!! CAMPAIGN FINANCE REFORM needs to be THE main goal of the protests!!!
I think that's a top item as well. To win it, we'll have to grow and then take direct action.
Great post... 100% objectivity correct!
declare victory and go home.
Why? We've only just begun. How can you say that?
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/831/bloombarak.png/
The entire Occupy movement should come down to DC and camp in Anacostia Park, site of the original Bonus March Encampment in 1932. Do what the Bonus Marchers did. Set up a clean, formal encampment. I'm sure there are enough sponsors who will pay for potties and showers.
Then, every day, all those at the encampment should get up at 6:30 a.m. and march down Maryland Avenue to the Capitol and spend the day visiting their Senators and Representatives. Every day until they get something done, like a nationwide Section 8 subsidy program so that everyone pays 1/3 of their monthly income for housing.
Let's get organized, Fellow Workers!
And who do you think will pay for this Section 8 subsidy program? Taxpayers of course, the people who go to work everyday while the movement is squatting in the park.
Fantastic! This, in combination with some direct action would be VERY effective.
ok. how about this for direct action: while gathered in DC, the General Assembly will take up the same issues being considered by Congress, and every day, those visiting their representatives will report on what they, their constituents, have decided.
Interesting. I like it!
so pass it on. Let's get the masses motivated to converge on the Capitol and have some real effect on the system
Folks… the next step in your progression should be to occupy the VOTE!
The system is already place, and to change it will require that you play by the existing rules. If necessary… create a Political Action Committee of your own! Solicit and accept funds from all of us concerned Americans, and pursue your endeavors through lobbyist of your own! Fight Fire with Fire!
This paired with many other activities and direct actions is great.
You really expect people who are on the economic edge to be able to buy their way to a better system? If your house was burning, would you start another fire?
99% of America equals around 303 million people if each person were to donate a few dollars... you do do the math!
I know i sound like a broken record but if the 99% delivers, as per THE FIRST AMENDMENT, a list of grievances along with the very real threat of occupying congress should the list be ignored, then we are employing the tools we already have. It isn't rocket science, it's simple math: 99vs1
There are some giants here who's shoulders we can stand on: theghostofthomassjefferson, the 99% Declaration, Sticks Calliope to name just three. LSN45 here has the right idea. Bill Black could be OWS Attorney General. etc. etc.
OWS must move to the next level and fast. Can anyone tell me why we shouldn't have a National General Assembly as outlined in the 99% Declaration?
"This is not a question of politics, of right or wrong. This is a question of intelligence. We must be smart. We enjoy popular support, for now. But to preserve America's good will, we must keep our demands narrow: end the corrupting influence of money in politics. That is something a majority of Americans can get behind. That is something a social movement can achieve. And then, and only then, can the other issues be successfully pursued." -theghostofthomassjefferson
NGA NOW! all roads lead to Philadelphia https://sites.google.com/site/the99percentdeclaration/
from an earlier post of mine:
I'm a farmer. I know a good machine from a crappy one (read Egypt). But a good machine in the hands of a lousy operator leads to damaged equipment and loss of crop leading to hunger and debts. We're coming out with better machines all the time but keeping the machine i have running productively means i can aquire a state-of-the-art machine sooner. So let's fix the machine we have (the ballot box is your tool box) and then discuss the new machine.
Yes!!!!!
The baby is not democracy. The baby is individual rights, which is the only safeguard of democracy. It is not the other way around. The major problems of this country stem from the contradictions in the constitution. The commerce clause is the single largest barrier to individual rights. It is the incentive behind corporate ownership of government. Remove it and we will remove one of the greatest threats to individual rights, and therefore to democracy.
Ahh, the cult of individualism. It runs strong in America. Of course individual rights are important and the life of the individual is important. But that's only half of life. The other half is community, being in community with others. We must not skip out on that because we'll lose all the benefits that come with that.
Martin Luther King, Jr. Put it this way:
"I can never be what I ought to be until you are what you ought to be and you can never be what you ought to be until I am what I ought to be. We are, all of us, inextricably linked."
And we all ought to be free from force and coercion.
Great point!!!
OWS is not a movement. It's a joke. The nuts from the park do not represent the 99%.
The "movement" is going to break-up; that's a given. Then the hierarchy is going to make a grab for the cash that's been collected and lawsuits will ensue - every person who walked through Zuccotti park is going to want a cut.
You don't get extra points for each additional "I told you so". It has been recorded. Now why don't you get out of the way while some folks are trying to do something constructive. Collaborators with the enemy aren't helpful. (But you knew that.)
This is a juvenile assessment. You can't really believe this.
Actually, I do. Your "movement" is not sustainable: it has no message (other than "it's not fair") or goals; the people involved in this "movement" have no understanding, at all, about how the financial markets operate or the absolute necessity of the 2008 financial bailout. Or perhaps you didn't see the dow drop almost 1900 points in less than a week, which completely destabilized the market for an entire year; or the credit freeze, which resulted in thousands of layoffs? Maybe you don't know that the government has earned a return of more than an 8% return on the $309 billion that it invested in the banks and AIG. But let's go back to the beginning - ever heard of NINA and subprime mortgages - these are the root cause of the 2008 financial meltdown. Banks structured these into investment vehicles, sophisticated investors bought them, but before any of that happened, millions of people purchased homes that they could not afford. And yet OWS thinks executive compensation is the problem. News flash OWS is clueless - public companies that run at a profit keep thousands of people employed and thousands of communities alive. Moreover, most executive compensation is in the form of stock options - in other words, company does well, executive gets a big pay day, and the 99% stays employed. But if you disagree, rather than camping out in a park, buy a couple of shares of a company's stock, attend the quarterly shareholder meetings and express your views.
In short, no one, other than the unemployed and confused are joining your movement because you're not making a meaningful contribution, you're not adding to the dialogue, offering any solutions, or showing any promise of doing so in the future.
And about the money - of course I'm right. There's only a couple of names on the "movement's" bank account and they control. I'm betting a select few will start drawing "salaries" from the newly organized non-profit real soon. Non profits are required to disclose salaries over a certain amount. I'm sure we will all be reading about this in the NY Post very soon.
Time is short, options limited or non-existent. all roads lead to Philadelphia, ETA July 4th, 2012: https://sites.google.com/site/the99percentdeclaration/
It is time to gather signatures with each petition. EX. to get money out of the political system. Another ex: To repeal the opinion of the Supreme Court declaring corporations a person. Or at least for corporations to have the same criteria filled when asking for welfare as a person. Low income and no assets. Otherwise it is a double standard. Another, to have all those who have been lobbyists or work as CEOs out of the government. To eliminate the power of lobbying. Just petitions are legal. Another, to scrap the law that says congress and senate can vote themselves a raise. Another, to have campaigns only lasting 2 months before election, and have each candidate to only spend a certain amount. All ads should be truthful. For the government to work for people and to be subject to reprimand by the people. How? By voting. Conflicts of interests should be out in the open and those should resign. They work for us. We should not be taxed without full representation. Everyone should have the same amount of power when represented. Strip ALEC of power in the congress.
You're on a roll man. Let's PUSH for this stuff and take direct nonviolent action ala King and Gandhi.
How about this: all the East coast OWS activists who are able can migrate south and make a big encampment for the winter somewhere in Florida. The West coast ones can go to S. California. At these activist camps they can focus on organizing, training new activists, getting the message out, and helping to coordinate direct actions. Each camp can have a group devoted to grassroots organizing to apply pressure from outside the system, and a group devoted to infiltrating/influencing the current system. People from all over will send support to keep the camps going. Can you imagine it? Why not? There are allies everyone. I bet there's someone with land outside of Gainesville or Orlando who would love to host an OWS encampment.
Sounds awesome to me as long as we are gearing up for something big, focused and impactfjl like this http://occupywallst.org/forum/proposed-list-of-demands-please-help-editadd-so-th/ .
By the way, I also completely agree that small actions that we all take day to day matter too. I don't think it's one or the other. It's probably both.
Why on earth would you want to raise corporate taxes. Jobs are already pouring overseas. Close the loopholes fine, but don't raise the rates. If anything try to lower them by by closing the loopholes.
Why on earth would we want companies like GE paying more than zero in taxes? Are you serious? You are really questioning WBC we'd want corporations and the wealthy to pay their fair share? Rates were very high in 50's and 60's and rich people still did fine.
Those are loopholes. Clean energy tax breaks for the most part for GE I believe. Close those loopholes and the others. Don't raise the corporate tax rate and punish all those companies aren't exploiting the loop holes.
Any tax increase on corporations will be directly passed on to the consumer via either price increases or more jobs sent overseas.
You don't get it. This guardrailess system you seem to be a proponent of doesn't work. Needs guardrails and those that benefit need to pay their fair share. Income inequality at present is totally unacceptable. We're one of the worst examples of that huge gap between rich and poor in the world and it's ruining our country. Wake up man. Trickle down economics doesn't work. Seriously, wake up!
I own a small business and literally every single tax increase and regulatory cost we have incurred in the past 8 years has been passed on. How can I do it? Because my competitor's all have the same cost increases and do the same thing. You don't think big corporations do the same exact thing?
I founded a company 14 years ago. I employ a lot of people and my company is successful. I like paying taxes. I realize that a lot of the reason for my success is that my community's schools, roads, bridges, social programs etc make this a great place for my customers, my employees and me! I see infrastructure beginning to suffer and schools hurting...public safety waning too so I'm advocating for tax increase for individuals and businesses. You count the costs. I count the costs but also realize the benefits. You're only doing half your homework friend :)
Thepeople are rising. When should we take the next step?
Now is as good of time as any.
I'm no expert. I'm just asking the question. A lot of people I talk to agree with you. But a lot of people also say it is too soon. Others say we will never take a stand on any specific set of demands or solutions. They say we will leave Gandhi and King's methods in the scrap heap and just focus on occupying spaces and growing the movement. I personally feel that's naive. Interest will certainly diminish soon of we don't take decisive stand and action that produces real results for real people on the ground.
11 Reasons Why Occupy Wall Street Protesters Are Hypocrites If They Do Not Call For Barack Obama To Resign http://endoftheamericandream.com/archives/11-reasons-why-occupy-wall-street-protesters-are-hypocrites-if-they-do-not-call-for-barack-obama-to-resign
and while your at it,
Securities & Investment: Money to Congress http://www.opensecrets.org/industries/summary.php?ind=F07&cycle=All&recipdetail=M&sortorder=U
Executive Branch - POLITICS Solyndra Case Reveals Gateway Between Administration Loans, Obama Allies Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/11/16/solyndra-case-reveals-gateway-between-administration-loans-obama-allies/#ixzz1dvsWW3jy
Obama administration pressured Solyndra to delay layoffs for political gain
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2807883/posts
Why so "two party" in your mindset. We are the 99% and we have more in common than we have separating us. Once we realize this we'll be making decisions from a position of unified power rather than making demands from a position of divided weakness.
Direct action on big scale will help increase our numbers exponentially. :)
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-- On Civil Disobedience and Direct Action . . . . November 12, 2008
http://occupywallst.org/forum/on-civil-disobedience-and-direct-action/
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-- It has been said we should take up arms . . . . November 12, 2011
http://occupywallst.org/forum/it-has-been-said-we-should-take-up-arms/
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-- Direct Action - Proposal before the committee: A Demonstration of Tongues . . . . Nov. 13, 2011
http://www.occupywallst.org/forum/direct-action-proposal-before-the-committee-a-demo/
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-- Trending on Twitter - Corporations Have No Tongues . . . . Nov. 13, 2011
http://occupywallst.org/forum/-_-trending-on-twitter-corporations-have-no-tongue/
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-- Targeted Interdiction - What is it? . . . . Nov. 14, 2011
http://occupywallst.org/forum/targeted-interdiction-what-is-it/
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. -- Targeted Interdiction and Subversion of Institutions - WTF? . . . . Nov. 15, 2011
http://occupywallst.org/forum/-targeted-interdiction-and-subversion-of-instituti/
Look in the streets of NYC today....
I think this movement has to go to the people. I think for unemployed or those who can give time to go into their communities and do that would be great. I mean donate time if you have it at charitable organizations, food pantries, thrift stores. Talk to people and more importantly listen to them. Visit churches when invited, talk to people meet people, be friendly. Go to events at your child's school. In short, infiltrate America. Talk to republicans, listen to their reasons for voting how they do. Find out which issues the people can get together on. Network. Give the people a chance to participate that won't cost them their job, like Move Your Money. Organize boycotts. Encourage people to shop locally and buy and sell used. You can't get called a lazy slacker if you are there donating time and creating opportunities to build bridges. Sound like a plan?
Awesome. I'm for that. 110%. But I think those who have inclination and ability to engage in direct action should do that too, especially in a coordinates way at a specific location on a massive scale.
I am completely with you and love what you're saying. I just think it's both/and rather than either/or.
Do you agree or am I off in my thinking?
Oh yeah, people still need to get together and protest! They need to be visible. They need to be able to share what they learn from to talking to people on both sides. Events and protests need to be planned to get maximum attendance, when more people can attend. Its not just about disrupting but getting together and sharing and showing support.
I like that.