Forum Post: Educated people seldom have original ideas of their own .. they are good listeners though
Posted 12 years ago on Dec. 4, 2011, 11:49 a.m. EST by FriendlyObserverA
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This content is user submitted and not an official statement
with all due respect the so called "trolls are highly educated .. but they are simply incapable of reason .. what causes this I wonder .. what type of person can become highly educated .. but unable to be creative in their own mind ? Are educated individuals really that useful if they can not solve simple problems ? with all the economists on this site and intelligence in the world .. why is it such a mess?
“Imagination is more important than knowledge. For knowledge is limited to all we now know and understand, while imagination embraces the entire world, and all there ever will be to know and understand.”
--Albert Einstein
Imagination coupled with historical knowledge creates social innovation. Imagination coupled with real world experience creates consumer innovation. lack of imagination coupled with any of the two creates lemmings.
It seems you also read the quote wrong. He did not say knowledge is not important. He said imagination is more important and I agree.
I work in the software industry. When I hire a programmer I use people with knowledge to do grunt work and highly value those with imagination to create and innovate. What I found most interesting is that most if not all of the best programmers I have worked with over 25+ years are also musicians.
That make sense.The reason I wrote what I wrote was because i just though of it after reading the post , and it made sense so I though i'd share. i believe anyone is capable of innovation, they just have to have their heart, soul and head in it.
Yes, but my point is that most of the time we teach our children how to memorize chuncks of knowledge rather than how to imagine and think.
"The mind is not a vessel to be filled, but a fire to be lighted."
-- Plutarch
you know, i believe i'm a very smart person, and I got that way because I was a drop out in high school so I learned by trial and error. When I finally went to college at age twenty four, I had a self confidence greater than most of my peers, and I sailed though five years of college with no problem. It took five years because during my first year I was as book smart as a dim wit. So when anyone tries to tell me high school is important, I say, sure, for the parents to work more hours. High school is a glorified baby sitting enterprise, in my opinion.
we all develop at different stages .. and in different directions .. or at least being optimistic we do
This it true, and it means you still have a chance to develop. I like your positive attitude.
Honey I have been trying to break you. But I would not want you to be hurt.
You would have to answer the first question I posed at the beginning of this page to break me. What you are doing is breaking yourself by making assertions you are not willing to defend. You have no credibility.
You're asking me where my thoughts come from ?
I will answer. Deep contemplation.
Thanks trashy. Hugs for you
Your mind is an utter failure. You have no integrity. You leave your ideas to die alone and unaided in this cruel forum. Posting ideas is easy, entering into mature discussions to defend them is much harder. You have yet to reach a point where you can do the latter. It's saddening. I can hear your ideas screaming just before their horrible death.
If you only knew.
Funny. I am a classically trained musician, but I work as a programmer for a living. I usually direct small teams. Steve Jobs said the same thing about the programmers he worked with. To me, it's not a coincidence. I find many similarities between music and computer programming. More specifically, between music composition and computer programming.
thank you
let me add .. a musician if hired by you without any knowledge of computers would accomplish very little .. until they receive some knowledge of the product .. they really work together .. but please allow me to say we are all gifted with with an assortment of gifts .. some have musical skills .. while others have endurance ability
I would not hire a musician without knowledge of computers and I did not imply that in the least.
I do find it interesting though that two of the best programmers I worked with were actually music majors in college and had no computer science classes in school.
I also worked with another great programmer that was an English major in college.
To me
ǝbpǝןʍouʞ uɐɥʇ ʇuɐʇɹodɯı ǝɹoɯ sı uoıʇɐuıbɐɯı
That is just how I feel and I am always searching for it.
..well please let me say the very fact that you have pointed this out .. is a sign of your ability.
but would the intellects agree with you there is a connection between musical talent and computer creative imagination ?
I have thought about this often because of what I have experienced.
I believe music notation is a lot like programming. You have dots that represent letters. You have whole notes, half, quarter notes, dotted half notes, sharps, flats, keys, timing signatures… You also need to relate symbols on a page to keys on a keyboard or finger placement on a violin.
But there is another component to music, emotion. The minor chords are sad, the majors happy. You have to combine them imaginatively to create and change the mood of the listener.
So to be a good composer or programmer does require a similar combination of knowledge skills, imagination, and talent.
In my experience many people can learn the basics and recite the rules back to me however very few seem to have the imagination to do something extraordinary.
If you care for a detailed explanation of how music and computer programming are related, I would be glad to oblige. As I mentioned above, I have a masters degree in music composition, and am also a programmer. I started programming when I was 8 on a ZX81 and have never taken formal classes. I learned on my own by reading the code of others. Nowadays, I work part-time as a programmer and do music the rest of the time. I have to go the bed. If you are interested in my thoughts just ask, and I'll post something tomorrow.
I am pretty sure I understand how they are related. I am a musician and a programmer myself.
I imagine that you are probobaly one of the people I would hire.
I think you missed one of the most important aspects. Generally, musicians spend a lot of time practicing alone and learning to learn by themselves. Even if you have a teacher, you must make many decisions by yourself and learn to read from other sources, and to listen for new sounds. And, we do this from a tender age. You can learn programming in school, but when you get out, you always have to remain on top. You always have to learn by yourself. For me, that is one of the big similarities. The learning approach and learning to become an autodidact and to be able to spend a lot of time with one's self. It's not always easy to be alone all day!
That, and I think the aspect of structure. Planning the macro, meso, and micro elements of a structure and seeing as so they all fit together and that each note counts, and each line of code counts.
For me, whether I organize sounds, line of codes, or sentences, it's mostly all the same. My brain works in the same zone. The only difference is that music and writing are deeper than programming.
there are some people who will never beable to pick up n instrument and create music .. but on the same hand could grow and love doig it] the most beautiful garden .. both have emotion .. and patience .. and my admiration.
thank you joe the farmer
You believe an intellectual is someone who simply possesses knowledge, and no imagination? Why this simplistic dichotomy? What would you call someone that possesses both? A super-intellectual?
yes a combination of all is good .. except the pessimism and negativity that adds no light .. encouragment or support to an idea in its infancy
Criticism is a key ingredient in the blossoming of an idea. Support raises the idea, but criticism is the chisel that shapes it ever more sharply or kills it if it is bad. Bad ideas should be killed in their infancy; else, we just waste time. You have a problem because I criticize your claims when you are looking for high-fives. At the end of the day, those giving you high-fives will be gone, but I will still be standing here. What you don't realize is that great movements are supported by great thinkers, and great thinkers are fashioned by great critics. Criticism and auto-criticism are not optional if you wish to find truth; they are mandatory. Sharp ideas attract sharp critics. This is something you will realize if one of your ideas is lucky enough to one day spread its wings and fly outside of your control.
When you offer a positive view [if you are capable of such] than I will consider your thoughts with sincerity .. but for now you are merely an annoyance and may I add preemptive annoyance annoyance has its uses to .. they can destroy a good thought .. they can restrict growth and potential .. they are like weeds in the garden .. how do you romanticize weeds trashmacj I am sure you can .. find a use for weeds .. can you not ? perhaps when everyone is cleaning house you feel it is necessary to go around and continually make a mess .. hey after all this builds and exercises their cleaning abilities .. yes criticism is easy .. as easy as flying over a city with a 400 lb bomb and drop away .. the real skill is building the city ..
you are nothing but an annoyance and some how you like the attention it brings you .. show me one post you have written with an encouraging tone?
All the posts on this page are encouraging you to back your claim that intellectuals are uncreative and cannot solve problems. However, even with all this encouragement, you still tuck yourself in a little corner and refuse to enter a mature and well structured debate. You make a post then run away. It's like abandoning a baby. I'm encouraging you to back up your ideas. This is important. You should answer the million dollar question.
I would be happy to. Just for you.
Yes I think you are very book smart. It's a good thing someone wrote all those books and you enjoy reading. As for composing. There is always hope.
Actually, music composition is my discipline. That is what I studied as a graduate student.
I studied composition in preschool.
Thrashymaque you could not even understand deep thought let alone conceive it.
Which modern and postmodern composers do you enjoy?
I enjoy my own composing the most.
Indeed. Your compositions are the work of a genius. Make a post, then run away. A coward who blushes and wreaks in shame when questioned then runs in a corner to hide while his ideas are left alone to die.
I realize I did not embrace the whole concept of this thought .. "imagination embraces all we know and understand "
Einstein had a powerful mind
that is excellent joe the farmer .. but I would have to add to mr einstein this: knowledge is food for thought and stimulates imagination ..
Please note that he did not say knowledge was not important. I thought that it directly relates to this post. I also agree with him that imagination is more important. I have worked with engineers for over 25 years. They all went through the same rigorous program however very few seem to have imagination.
I use the following metaphor all the time. There are many people that can play an instrument but very few with the imagination to create a composition.
Another answer to the original post is the way we go about educating our children. We fill them up with knowledge and measure how much they retained at the end of the week or quarter. This leads to one of my other favorite quotes:
"The mind is not a vessel to be filled, but a fire to be lighted."
-- Plutarch
This is a flawed metaphor that confuses matters. I studied classical music all my life. I have a bachelor's degree in classical guitar performance, and a master's degree in music composition. At the highest echelon, both composers and performers require a great deal of imagination. Playing an instrument is not merely playing notes like a robot, it is the art of interpretation, and art that is high on the pedestal of creative arts. There are many composers without much imagination. They write the jingles you hear in Dunkin' Donuts commercials. They write using formulas learned in textbooks. Similarly, there are many performers who content themselves with playing Bach or Mozart in the same way their teachers do. These are not the top dogs. The best composers create astounding sonic worlds that only a fertile imagination can birth, while the best performers, like Glenn Gould, break the mold of the past and launch the music of composers to new heights the composers themselves could not have imagined.
Don't dish the performers. The masters in that field have just as much imagination as the directors and composers.
I in no way am saying that imagination is not required to be a truly great performer. What I am saying that there are very few who can compose a great symphony or concerto. Folks like Bach, Mozart, Bartok, and Rachmaninov are few and far between. In my humble opinion it is their superior imagination that sets them apart. Yes folks like Horowitz, Rubinstein, Ashkenazy are few and far between as well and they do have imagination. I just feel that composing a great work requires a little bit more imagination than interpreting one.
I disagree. The difference is the brain wiring. Composers don't think like performers. They both use imagination in different ways. The problem is you cite the names of the best composers, but you think of all the performers when you are comparing. In reality, there are many many composers which have been forgotten. In the classical and romantic period, almost all performers also composed. If you compare on a similar playing, you'll find that there are about as many top performers as top composers. Guys like Glenn Gould don't come around everyday. They are just as rare as a Bach.
perhaps breaking out of this mold of capitalism will take a high level composer.
Logical Fallacy: Appeal to Authority.
Do you consider a master composer a person of authority? Or someone with the power to break the mold. Do you consider Einstein a person of authority?
Somehow I would not place a person such as these in that category.
So perhaps you misunderstood. Judging by your comment " logical fallacy"
To break the mold of capitalism will take a great composer. Not a person of authority!
Get it right Trashmuck
To break the mold of capitalism it will take an intellectual who creates another mold to replace it. It will also take critics to criticize that new mold which will no doubt have problems of its own. No system is perfect. Not with humans around.
Do you constantly criticize ? Is the glass always half empty for you. If it is than such negativity will compose horrible music. You need to lighten up. Anger keeps the happiness out. Is that what you are trying to accomplish ? .. Keep the happiness out. Rather than see the glass being half full and glad it's not empty.
See how all your education has not improved your attitude. Perhaps only reinforced it.
The pursuit of happiness is wasted on people like you. You will never use it. Never pursuit happiness. If you did you would only destroy it anyways. What are your novels about. Are you encouraging others with your criticism?
I criticize what must be criticized. I am not angry. This is your flawed perception which drowns your mind in assumptions. You're sinking fast. When you make comments that are worthy of praise I will give you praise. You could start by answering the question I asked at the beginning of this thread. Why do you believe intellectual are uncreative and cannot solve problems? If you cannot even back up your own statements, then you are wasting the time of OWS by publishing said statements on this discussion boards.
When I begin to read. One word one sentence one paragraph I begin to think of what is being said in the writing. By the time I am half a page down I can no longer focus on the words for my mind is deep in thought. This is why I compliment intellects on their ability to listen. Pertaining to listening to the words on the page. And developing great intellect. I truly admire their ability.
Does learning from someone elses teaching validate owns own imagination ?
The ideas of great writers are the food for imagination. If you can't read, I suggest you play with legos.
And when I read I hold my breath and same when I write. I don't read and write much.
The more your observe from the sidelines, the better it is for everyone including yourself.
A short story:
Stick a young caveman , generally stayed out side the cave. He really wasn't a cavepeople person. He would spend the day exploring and thinking. And sometimes tossing a stone around. Sometimes he would notice when he threw the stone at another stone there would be sparks. So , Stick began to think. Fire was nice and warm and the cave was always cold. Maybe this spark would start a fire? And than the cave would be warm. So Stick took the stones into the cave and the cavepeople all gathered around. And stick explained his idea. And began making sparks. The cave people became very angry and some threw dirt in stick and some laughed. Stones don't burn they laughed. And threw stick outside.
Senseless banter. An argument supported without any evidence. Pulled out of tin air. Absolutely empty. Ah! Intellectuals cannot solve problems. Ah! Intellectuals seldom have ideas of their own. Where do you pull this nonsense from?
banter: well, well, well.
Now we see an attack on intelligent reasoning. His last statements succinctly state the strategy some trolls are using: cast uncertainty and doubt through the ranks to demoralize and create disillusionment in the ranks. They do this via posts like this one questioning whether we can trust intelligent people as well as innocent sounding posts from 'supporters' suggesting ridiculous ideas, conspiracy theories, etc. This is a pretty sophisticated psy-op strategy, and it suggests an organized effort in my mind... not the government, and probably not any organized party, but perhaps a finance/business PAC ?
Don't dive too deep or you'll be drowning in conspiracy theory yourself. Without proof, nothing means anything. Stay at the surface where the arguments are clear. It does not matter who is or who isn't a psyops, or if these beasts even exist. You can only counter comments in two ways 1) ignore 2) provide proper counter-arguments. Anything else is fruitless and lies in the dark realm of logical fallacies. What's important is that we keep our minds sharp. Let's work for the betterment of manmind.
Well, you're mostly right, but in the present case, I'd have to say so is Rico. I called this spade a spade on our first encounter--see http://occupywallst.org/forum/equal-pay-everyone-should-receive-equal-pay/ , midway down. Don't waste your time trying to reason with this clown; he or she will just close the account and create another in a few days anyway. You'd have better luck trying to rehabilitate the Jew haters than reach a point of mutual understanding here.
By the way, I too am an avid musician, a programmer by trade, and have an interest in philosophy (which I suppose you do as well given your handle). I'm tempted to throw you a bump point just for those....
thrshmask, you keep showing up.. like .. "dirty underwear ?"
Yes, just like dirty undies. Nice ad hominem. Now, give us some evidence to support your claim that intellectuals do not have ideas of their own and an unable to solve problems?
Why not engage the guy in real discussions about his views vs. your views instead of trading insults. Do you have something constructive to share?
His post is an attack on intellectuals. His whole argument is based on nothing more than an ad hominem. I asked him to provide evidence for his claims. He has not obliged. What more is there to discuss? Do you believe his simplistic idea that intellectuals never solve problems and seldom have original ideas of their own? If you do, please take FriendlyObserverA's position and provide counter-arguments in his place. Perhaps you can start by defining what is an intellectual, then provide an argument for why they are always uncreative and unable to solve problems.
I think his claim is naive and misguided. I'm sorry if you view it as an attack. But he did start his comments with the refrain of .... with all due respect. So I giving him the benefit of the doubt that his comments are more about searching for understanding of how our leaders solve problems, or don't, than attacking intellectuals.
This is FriendlyObserverA's little payback for a discussion we had in an earlier thread. It's all fun and games, but I would like him to provide evidence for his claims. Conspiracy theories and naïve statements are major poisons that are killing the minds of the young today, and hurting the credibility of Occupy. (Now, I go to bed. Good night my friend. See you tomorrow perhaps.)
Payback is hell, huh? Pleasant dreams friend.
Payback is what I enjoy the most on this forum. The problem is most times my opponents are too weak and just crumble instead of fighting back. There's nothing that I enjoy more than a good debate! I even give allowances for the best debaters here. I grant one ad hominem per two strong arguments.
I thought you we're going to bed. Are you talking in your sleep? You are talented!
My boss came online and I had to chat.... Now, I'm really done. Cheers lad. Have fun with FriendlyObserverA. It's like talking to a drunk high-schooler while waiting in line for the bathroom at a bad party where you're the oldest one around.
well you are proof .. you are highly intellectual but have not once solved anything.
How do you know what I have and what I haven't solved? Your claims are all based on assumptions. Nothing more than a conspiracy theory. Do you indulge in Ickish dreams of the reptile kind? Give us strong arguments and evidence to back up your claims. Or else, what is the point of making these absurd claims in the first place?
well judging by your manners .. you are not even american .. they are polite and respectful you are not .. which you also put a stain on intellectualism
Red herring. You are changing the subject. You've now added the elements of manner and nationality. Furthermore, you made a general statement about intellectuals, not a specific statement about myself. I do not represent all intellectuals so stick with arguments and evidence that defend your general claim.
Now, can we get back to the subject? Answer the question directly. What are your arguments or where is your evidence to show that intellectuals seldom have ideas of their own and are unable to solve problems?
I already answered your to your insults politely .. you have disgraced this website trashymmashk
You have not answered the question. Your post is a general attack on intellectuals, not a specific attack on myself. You should provide arguments and evidence to show that all intellectuals are uncreative and incapable of solving problems. This is a forum for discussion. Please debate this issue. What is the point of starting posts if you are unable or unwilling to defend your claims? Without your defense, your post is nothing more than spam which wastes everyone's precious time.
well to be honest .. the post was intended to open the eyes of intellects .. I have secret high respect and admiration for them .. and ..need them in this discussion ...
You are incredibly ignorant. Reading all this is almost comical. You have yet to say anything besides assumptions and random thoughts. You can't spell or type anything close to correct grammar. Yet, at the end of the day, you somehow think you have won an argument, because you say things. That's it, you just say things. There's nothing to your post. Your ignorance, honestly, almost leaves me speechless. What you say is almost too stupid to even counter for the lack of anything substantial to even counter at all.
ignorant perhaps , but not comical? I never could get the spelling and grammar right .. though I thought I did better with spelling .. I am so glad everyone is welcome on these forums .. and it isn't censored for those with good grammar .. after all it is the thought that counts .. or wait was that something to do with gifts ? hmmn
heavysigh.. to say there is nothing to my post .. tells me you are unable to "connect the dots " figure some things out in your own mind that is .. almost speechless ? well next time I will have to do better .. and maybe I won't hear from you at all .. haha
americans are polite and respectful, eh?
hardly. almost nobody smiles or holds the door anymore. sir and ma'am have been permanently removed from their vocabularies mostly, its just a bunch of unhappy slaves as far as the eye can see, trudging miserably about their meaningless days, locking their aged away in some well-painted room, sipping a $3 coffee.
the polite and respectful, you see them at about 10am when the rest of the slaves are at work : )
My experience is that they educate themselves to pursue the original ideas' promise. Common sense is commonly overlooked.
Here is an exception to the rule.
http://occupywallst.org/forum/make-a-stand-join-the-clan/
The Revolution starts here!
Why is it such a mess? Because there are many more idiots also posting. But that's hardly the fault of the non-idiots, nor is it an indication of their ineffectiveness in solving problems.
Most truths are lucky if they are half-truths: Only the strong survive. Gandhi defeated England. The most valuable worker is the best employee. Americans are the most inventive. There is nothing new under the sun. Capitalism can't be made to be a succesful system for the poor. Advertising art is not real art. Artists, Intellectuals, and (fill in the blank), are to be expected to solve, (fill in the blank). Math is God. It's been fun.
FriendlyObserver, generally you can never expect to come to a forum like this one and be respected or "liked." Wisdom and manners are what make people willing to listen, not knowledge. There are respectful educated people on here who are also good listeners but you have to really look for them. The most highly educated person can be emotionally retarded. A good percentage of posters on here, this is their most fun parlor game; to see what damage they can do with their tongue, to anybody that isn't like them. They are punks, ignore them. This place is not for the faint of heart.
This place is not for the faint of heart."
I like that !
you're welcome
My post is really quite arrogant .. but with deliberate calculated intention.
I do have great admiration for our scholars and all the wonders they never cease .. science has come a long long way .. medicine .. and so much much more .. I am truly gratful for all those with the ability and discipline to accomplish so much .. I place high value on our education system .. and the people involved
Ditto. There are lots of extremely brilliant people on here, else I wouldn't be wasting my time. I only wish it could be formatted in such a way where the best posts could go to top and not be lost in a sea of crap. Could be much more of a learning experience and inspire more respect for what's happening here.
yes you are absolutely right .. so much worthwhile information and thoughts .. have be swallowed up in the garbage .. part of the reason why I have been throwing insults at the garbage posters .. without mercy.
Good luck with that. That's too depressing for me. I look for the gold and try not to step in the dung. Off to work here. :)
yeah .. it hasn't been working .. but thanks.. have a nice day at work
Educated people know enough to go along to get along. That's how many of them get ahead. Don't rock the boat. It's not that they are incapable of generating original ideas, they are programmed to stay within their comfort zone. This usually serves them well. Nonetheless, there are quite a few of them who break out of the pack and show creativity with useful solutions to problems. The number of creative individuals who generate original ideas is much greater than your blanket statement indicates. Many work within large corporations and their individual achievements are not evident to the public at large. In short, there is really no basis for your statement.
well the basis to my statement lies in the horrible mess the world economy is in ..and the fact that the " intelligent that got us into this mess , can't find a way out !
Who says our leaders are all that intelligent. It is misleading to equate popularity with intelligence.
MR Obama went to Harvard did he not ?
So what. Actually, he is not the sharpest knife in the drawer considering his dismal performance.
well my post was not aimed at him at all ... but you were saying the politicians gained their position by popularity .. I merely was pointing out his credentials .. quite high
"Educated people seldom have original ideas of their own .. they are good listeners though"
They are though the people with the knowledge base to carry an idea to fruition.
In reality is takes both creative thinkers and technicians, TOGETHER, to achieve the greatest result for the most people.
False dichotomy.
I don't know what trolls have to do with any of this.
The world today has some extremely intelligent individuals .. unfortunately they are remaining silent and have not offered a way to solve the economic crisis , or the unfairness and inequalities in the human condition ..
none the less it's probably because they have not even gave it any thought.. and why should they .. altruism is not necessarily a characteristic of intelligence
Pointing fingers at others is an easy way to claim, (to yourself at least), that you are doing something while actually doing nothing productive.
admitting there is a problem is the first step to recovery.
The first problem to admit is that you are not an intellectual in the least. Once you have admitted that, you will read and listen instead of posting worthless comments and ideas. That will help the movement by leaving more room to the real intellectuals.
I am certainly not an intellect. My ability to read is very poor. Always has been.
"Those who don't know history are destined to repeat it." "If I have seen further it is only by standing on the shoulders of giants."
We educate ourselves in a field we deem best suited for our personal goals, but it is by studying those who have come before us do we learn what is more likely to succeed, or fail. In order to better understand what works, we must understand what does not, and why. The system we live in has failed, and continues to do so every 20 to 30 years. Largely in part to the fact those with any say in the matter continue to look for the quick fix. As a result of finding the economy in a stable-like state we turn back to our old ways; thereby inviting the problem to return, with open arms.
As for intelligent people. OWS is an idea. A great idea. But an idea is meaningless unless someone is willing to make use of it. We live in a place where the economic infrastructure accommodates only those who can find new and inventive ways to exploit others. In this way it would seem meaningless to be of an intellectual nature. And being original does not always seem pragmatic; after all, those who go with the flow in this economy tend to succeed more in my experience. But unlike some, I don't measure my worth by how much money I make.
The united States has some of the finest universities .. and highly educted people on this planet .. along with many other nations.. there is a vast society of intellects .. and we find ourselves struggling in poverty worldwide .. 2 billion less than $2 per day .. it's extremely terrible. I am just disappointed in our elite intellects .. that we are in such a state of condition.
Your elite intellectuals are not in power. The United-States is a republic, not a technocracy. Your arguments are weak because they are based on a misunderstanding of the system. It's time to read, not comment.
If the elite intellects were in power what would they do ? Do they have solutions ? If they have than it is obvious they do not have the heart. And that's the true disappointment.
Your edifice is based solely on assumptions. You should help the movement by stopping to comment on this forum and leaving the room to real thinkers. Read and learn to write while on hiatus.
Solely on assumptions. Yes and that's why there are protests around the world. My assumptions are surely incorrect. Why would I assume the intellects have it all under control and with my best interest in their heart.
Red herring.... again...
No one asked you to assume the intellectuals had everything under control.
Well what should I give them praise for. Tell me.
For having the courage to read and to think. A courage you do not have.
I can not read well. I tried hard. I just can not.
My strong suit is abstract thinking. That's how I have developed an idea to remove the tax collecting budget system. And replace it with an unlimited system which will totally unleash mankinds potential.
Let's work together.
You are so naïve it's almost cute. Good luck with your "unlimited system which will totally unleash mankinds (sic) potential".
You say I run away when you show no attempt to embrace and understand a new concept. Perhaps you want it served on a silver platter.
New does not equate good, especially not in this case.
Good luck with your little story book. I am sure it will change the lives of many.
Who said the trolls were highly educated?
Please help us petition the White House to stop Obama from imposing harsh economic sanctions against a promising young African nation whose innocence has been vindicated by Wikileaks. Your signature can really save the lives of 5 million people. Thank you.
http://occupywallst.org/forum/vindicated-by-wikileaks-but-not-freed-from-accusat/
the education system is designed for control not education - read john taylor gatto - "dumbing us down" - how about a snippet from chomsky - "A lot of the educational system is designed for that, if you think about it, it's designed for obedience and passivity. From childhood, a lot of it is designed to prevent people from being independent and creative. If you're independent-minded in school, you're probably going to get into trouble very early on. That's not the trait that's being preferred or cultivated. When people live through all this stuff, plus corporate propaganda, plus television, plus the press and the whole mass, the deluge of ideological distortion that goes on"
you just gave me a thought .. were the drop outs independant minded .. did the system fail to capture their true talents .. and creativity
jobs, gates, kroc and walton - all drop outs - no? did you like school? prisons, factories and schools all similar in design and function. the educational system came out of india - where it was designed to keep the caste system in place. became the lancaster school system in england then imported to the usa - all part of the system orwell described - when the rulers lose the power to coerce through force they must resort to control of the public mind. you are not making the case that the education system promotes creativity - are you?
well I do not want to disrespect education .. after all the research and development that has been delivered to us from the educated elite .. just for example an engineer designing a bridge .. deserves my respect .. but I notice two of the names you mention made their wealth in the markets .. I hardly consider that creativity either.
no doubt lots of good things can come from education - gatto's line is "schooling is not education" - i think that is the question - right? an engineer from mit can do amazing things for the world. the mass of the population is subjected to schooling. "filters for obenience" is what chomsky calls the elite universities. i also agree with him that the school system drives out the nonconformist and crushes creative and critical thought. all you need to do is to read the very respected economists from harvard or the political science professors from columbia or perhaps the respected writers for the ny times - they are too often ignorant and sycophants. i agree that the wealth those guys made is no real sign of intelligence - possibly the opposite. the great thinkers of history - the moral philosophers would not think much of their wealth i imagine.
well no doubt the mass of wealth was a brilliant scheme. but in its wake left many to suffer
how about this quote - "wealth requires poverty - and the wealth of one has as it's precondition the poverty of others" not sure where it came from. not sure it is so brilliant anyway - teen suicide rises as you go up the income ladder - i teach many wealthy people - they are not so happy
yes .. there is definitly something wrong ... with capitalism .. why would the wealthy be unhappy? they live in abundance ..money gives freedom ..
somethings are very difficult to grasp.. sad about the suicide.. I wonder what the connection to wealth would mean?
thanks for the quote. Wealth really is a comparison word. it's like hot and cold .. you can not have one with out the other ? or at least we would never understand one with out the other .. ? good and evil ..
sometimes I wonder if the wealthy would be disappoinnted if everyone had equal wealth ?
we are social beings - not meant to live in isolation but in communities. lots of interesting stuff written on the subject - do you know max neef? AMY GOODMAN: What have you learned that gives you hope in the poor communities that you’ve worked in and lived in?
MANFRED MAX-NEEF: Solidarity of people. You know, respect for the others. Mutual aid. No greed. I mean, that is a value that is absent in poverty. And you would be inclined to think that there should be more there than elsewhere, you know, that greed should be of people who have nothing. No, quite the contrary. The more you have, the more greedy you become, you know. And all this crisis is the product of greed. Greed is the dominant value today in the world. And as long as that persists, well, we are done.
AMY GOODMAN: And if you’re teaching young economists, the principles you would teach them, what they’d be?
MANFRED MAX-NEEF: The principles, you know, of an economics which should be are based in five postulates and one fundamental value principle.
One, the economy is to serve the people and not the people to serve the economy.
Two, development is about people and not about objects.
Three, growth is not the same as development, and development does not necessarily require growth.
Four, no economy is possible in the absence of ecosystem services.
Five, the economy is a subsystem of a larger finite system, the biosphere, hence permanent growth is impossible.
And the fundamental value to sustain a new economy should be that no economic interest, under no circumstance, can be above the reverence of life.
thanks for sharing
anytime - gabor mate is also very interesting on these subjects - amy goodman interviewed him also
I've often thought this myself. I read allot of bios about wealthy people in their later years and they often look back and ponder whether it was all worth it. That is why I envision the affluencey ladder as a hamster wheel.Those that don't take the bait seem to live happier lives, while those who excel are revered by some, hated by others and are a little less happy than the rest.
I question whether they are really educated the. That was the point of the post I just made:
http://occupywallst.org/forum/the-next-phase-of-occupy-wall-street-occupy-the-un/
We are really not teaching people to think critically or creatively in the United States. All those rich guys on Wall Street were all taught at American universities, but were they really "educated"?
thank you , the true purpose of education .. is the philosophy and theory it provides to see the world and contribute to its evolution ..
Finally, I meet someone who appreciates abstract thought!
my specialty..
It's time for you to test this theory in practice by getting some education.
Education is really not the problem. It's heart and motive that utilizes the education where the real trouble is.
You know I look at trolls as being a bitter remnant of a terrible watered down education system where everyone gets a award for looking useful but not being useful.
lol. Nice little baited hook you set up in the title. What do mean by 'educated' exactly? School? Is school bad? Or just certain curriculum? Everyone is 'educated' to some degree. You were educated in the skill of tying your shoe laces weren't you? Does that make you incapable or reason and unable to be creative? Maybe we need to un-educate everyone?
Some would say that certain kinds of education actually improve critical and creative thinking.
I think the idea began developing when everytime an idea comes along the opposition [highly intellectual ] would trash the idea out to the best of their ability .. this got me thinking .. perhaps they can not concieve beyond what they've been taught .. and since ideas are in their infancy and brief .. they can not run with it" take it a step or two further .. weigh out the pros and cons .. develop the idea on their ow n .. it is either taught to them or they just don't get it ..
I think i see what you're getting at. But that is kind of like a stereotype to certain intellectual elitist attitudes. I think it depends upon the person more so than whether or not they are educated. And criticism is valuable as well, so long as it is honest. I agree that it is a positive quality to be able to be open to a variety of ideas, and weigh them objectively as possible.
[ I was also baiting the intellect, hoping to set a small fire under them . we really need their input in solving this crisis and to point out they have done nothing I would think rubs against their pride .. and hopefully stirs their motivation .] plus they ridiculed my every idea .. so it is a bit of payback
Unfortunately, intellectuals must waste a lot of time to push bad ideas to the side. If the uneducated like yourself did not bother to post on these boards, then we could concentrate on intellectual discussions free from logical ideas and bad assumptions. However, your pride will always make you post one more comment.
Wilbur and Orville had a crazy idea too. Those fools people said those fools.
"jadedcitizen if you would like to continue please start a fresh comment .. this one won't allow anymore replies. I will not reconsider equal wages .. at this point.. it would be like reconsidering freedom .. you know not what you ask."
Reflect on this: Would people struggling under minimum wage consider a living wage more freedom?
possibly .. but in the wiki example .. I could not get the whole grasp of living wage .. can you clarify in your words the process .. the setup of a living wage society .. how would this be implemented .. you seem to think this is a smaller step to take and will achieve a bit of relief .. I would like to hear out the idea.
As you probably know, wages have been stagnant in this country for three decades. The living wage is just another way of saying a much better minimum wage. It would set a standard <debatable> wage that would be set to offset the cost of living. It would do much to alleviate poverty.
I found this online. http://www.livingwage.geog.psu.edu
I would like to see the living wage be a bit higher than this for my own county.
okay at first glance it may sound good .. raise the minimum wage ..
but how does that eleviate the job crisis ..?and what will employers have to do to compensate for hire wages ? .. the answer is simple raise their final price of merchandice .. and whats even worse since most price s are raised at a percentage level .. the gap would actually widen between poverty and wealth ..
I could give you some basic stuff that I think needs to happen, but understanding people and bridging differences are my strengths, not economics. I defer to Puff6962 on economic matters, he can give you full, comprehensive answers if you wish to seek him out. I hope we talk again in the future my friend. Until we all have flying cars and equal wages ..... peace.
well .. than why would you advocate something you do not fully comprehend ? why would you advocate living wage ..
that is a fair question. I'll do my best to answer.
Do I need to fully comprehend all the underlying mechanisms that cause global warming to advocate for energy policies that take measures to protect the earth. I understand carbon dioxide warms the atmosphere and the globe is heating up - things get bad for us. What more do I need to know than that?
Should I go and get a p.h.d. in economics to advocate what makes sense to me about the economy. I already stated my basic understanding of a living wage - it's a trumped up minimum wage. But bear with me - seeing as we already have a minimum wage in place, it doesn't take a great stretch of my imagination to see a living wage. I am certain it would work based on the premise that an existing model already exists.
I am advocating what already exists but saying let's reform it and make it better. You are advocating something that does not exist and saying let's get rid of the current system and transform the whole shebang. It's a tough sell. Do you carry some heavy economics credentials to help you sell this? Why should people think you can achieve this transformation? How do we know you fully understand how to implement a whole new economic system?
Dictatorship already exists .. does that mean you would advocate it ?
and I have pointed out to you the results of raising minimum wage would simply increase the gap between rich and poor .. ..
what happens in the climate and what happens in economics .. do you really believe are equal in comparison ..
many people advocate capitalism .. and I am begining to believe it is simply because they were brainwashed ..
take religion for example ..people tend to believe what their culture has taught them to believe.. and thus advocate their beliefs
You ask me more questions? Answer mine first, then I'll answer yours.
Do you carry some heavy economics credentials to help you sell this? Why should people think you can achieve this transformation? How do we know you fully understand how to implement a whole new economic system?
hmmn ..touchy .. was it the comment on religion ?
no. you asked me a tough but fair question to explain my worth to advocate a position. I asked you to do in the same in return. you chickened out.
my credentials are the value of my ideas which I freely share with everyone. valuable ideas are like seeds that grow into something magnificent
flowery speech. you place a lot of value on ideas. may I ask - about your personal value system - what are you're top three values? examples: my number one value = trust, two = fairness, 3 = honesty
My thoughts.
Again we have run out of reply space jadedcitizen.
Economics is obviously not your specialty ... you have another gift .. of more value .. I would like to see more of it.
nope, economics is not my strong suit at all. nonetheless, I find the present state of economic circumstances to be less than bearable; it forces me into paying more attention to the matter than I would otherwise wish. I would gladly leave the fixing of it to others, but my trust in people doing the right things for the right reasons anymore has gone bankrupt. I ask that you use your own gifts wisely and find your way to the most practical solution(s) that would help people suffering right now. If you truly believe equal wages can work and be practically implemented in the near future, I say go for it. Put together some formal documents showing how it would work and how it would be implemented. However, if the idea really still needs a lot of time to grow and be fleshed out into something practical, I would question if you're doing the right thing by advocating for it at this time.
jaded citizen, you advocate living wage .. but later admit you know little about it .. than you quote Ghandi , so I have to question .. how much you know of ghandi ..
my credentials are the values of jaded skepticism which I freely share with everyone. jaded skepticism is like a safety net that keeps people from falling for foolish, impractical ideas.
it is easy to double talk and beat around the bush. ...you dismissed the idea of living wage ... but later on admitted you knew next to nothing about it. Only later when I explained what it was did you question its merits.
so I ask, let us restart this conversation with the understanding that both of us can learn from each other and go from there.
What about a basic income as an alternative to either living wage or equal wage?
Basic income
A basic income (or negative income tax) is a system of social security, that periodically provides each citizen with a sum of money that is sufficient to live on. Except for citizenship, a basic income is entirely unconditional. There is no means test, and the richest as well as the poorest citizens would receive it. A basic income is often proposed in the form of a citizen's dividend (a transfer payment from the government). Proponents argue that a basic income that is based on a broad tax base, would be more economically efficient, as the minimum wage effectively imposes a high marginal tax on employers, causing losses in efficiency.
In 1968 James Tobin, Paul Samuelson, John Kenneth Galbraith and another 1,200 economists signed a document calling for the US Congress to introduce in that year a system of income guarantees and supplements.[86] Both Tobin and Samuelson have also come out against the minimum wage.[87] In the 1972 presidential campaign, Senator George McGovern called for a 'demogrant' that was very similar to a basic income.[88]
Winners of the Nobel Prize in Economics that fully support a basic income include Herbert Simon,[89] Friedrich Hayek,[90] James Meade,[89] Robert Solow,[89] Milton Friedman,[91] Jan Tinbergen[89], James Tobin[86][92][93] and James Meade.[89]
Your thoughts?
well for example ows .. began this movement under the pretense of inequality and unfairness of the distribution of wealth .. that pretense has now been replaced with an emerging hidden agenda dealing with lobbying .. this is dishonesty on false pretense .. which completely destroys any further trust .. and fairness is the result of their coming demise.
Thats interesting. Most people believe this movement was spontaneous as a result of general dissatisfaction. I think it is mainly about inequality of wealth and representation. I'm not seeing the false pretense of lobbying. Can you explain.
more flowery ramblings. completely sidestepped my question -sigh :-(
Red herring... again... The sign of a dull mind.
Your ideas you have posted on this page have very little value. Should I conclude you have no credentials?
I am beginning to like you Trashymaque but the feeling is very young.
Is this original(?):
http://occupywallst.org/forum/approaching-a-metapolitical-discourse/
http://metapolitik.org/article/approaching-metapolitical-discourse
"Capitalism requires growth. A system that requires growth cannot last forever on a planet that is defined by ecological and social limits. Capitalism is therefore fundamentally unsustainable – sooner or later it will run up against those limits and the system will stop functioning
this statment seems to imply capitalism would be fine if it was allowed to grow limitlessly .. and I call foul .. just because the system has not reached its end or collapsed does not mean it is a good fine system .. there are many systems that went on and eventually failed it wasn't there failure that made them bad .. they were simply bad systems .. and the fact that they end as in hopefully capitalism will ultimately collapse as peredicted .. is something we can hope for as there seems to be no other way of changing this system without first having it colapse.
You totally and completely missed my point.
What I am saying is that capitalism can NOT "grow limitlessly".
That you got the opposite message from that paragraph is a little scary.
I seen your point and added a deeper concern. the length of capitalism is irrelevant to its actual functioning worth.
its a mess because there are infiltrators who are here to divide and conquer, undermine, cause confusion, and cast doubt. there is a war for your mind.
Educated individuals were taught by a brainwashing system of learning imposed by our government and that is why they don't make sense. They are incapable of independent thinking that is so desperately needed these days to create a better world.
You comment is what makes no sense.
Perhaps there is some insight into the mental limits that the unconscious mind can apply to conscious performance.
http://occupywallst.org/forum/how-are-the-georgia-guidestones-connected-to-polit/
The problem with less intelligent people is they can't, by definition, conceive of intelligence greater than their own. They have to describe intelligence based on their own limited intelligence which, in essence, is what our OP has done.
What the OP will never truly grasp it the fact that intelligent people never have to describe intelligence.
well where are the solutions ? .. why are we in an economic crisis .. I guess they can not describe that either .. with harvard graduates .. and oxford .. and what else .. where were they when all this was going on .. at home scratching their nose ? ..
personally I'd do the following things:
-impeach the 5 supreme court judges that declared money is speech and revert citizens united
-impose tarrifs on countries with trade deficits
-Put back in place the glass-steagall act
-increase taxes on the wealthy to pay for the deficit
-cut war spending dramatically
-hire inspectors to evaluate the teachers instead of using standardized testing
-implement the robin hood tax
-fire all the people who worked for the financial sector from the public sector
-Make the war industry public so there won't be a profit incentive for war
-Implement universal healthcare coverage like we should have in the first place
That's a few things I can think off the top of my head.
There are some people who think it'd be best to fight the cause rather than the symptom if you know what I mean cough cough
please take your poisoned ows agenda to another post
Well you asked for proposed solutions didn't you?
It was a rhetorical question .. and it was where are the solutions .. not what are the solutions ..
Lame comment again. You should delete it like the one below. They both make you look unintellectual. I guess that's good since it means you're creative and capable of solving problems.
I have no desire to show respect to those who clearly earn otherwise.
[Deleted]
You mean like Noam Chomsky? :O
I am not trained in economics or politics, but I know shit when I see it.
educated ( so we are told) but unable to be creative? you talking about 0bama?
So this is funny given that you call people "trolls". That's original. Now, let's count the number of times a counter argument to "trolls" has been "You haven't been paying attention" or "provocateur" or any number of these trite words and phrases. Yep, those of us who disagree with some of your tactics, or the entire movement (not I, just some tactics), are trying to cause "uncertainty and doubt", another buzz phrase when referring to the "trolls" and I find that one to be the craziest of all: are you so easily swayed in your ideologies that a "troll" worries you?
I am simply facing the annoyance head on .. and when someone approaches me with sincere positive thought .. I do my best to reciprocate .. your comment for example .. why would trolls be concerned with what I have to say ? they deserve no grace from me .. there fore will receive any ..show me my error .. their only mission is to derail all progress " well thats pretty nice of them would not you agree .. considering the progress being made is difficult and concerns the welfare of everyone ..
These so called "trolls" then are the people who come on here and say things like, "Get a job" or "Move to Cuba then." Those people are simply ignorant and should be completely ignored. There is no conversation to be had with them. Like racists, it's useless to try to reason with them because they are not thinkers, this is true. I don't even open those threads. It's a waste of your mental energies.
People who get Phd's are creative.
They have to be if they want to come up with a worthy thesis.
yes of course.. but in this world .. it is mostly the wealthy[regardless of their aptitude] that pursue PHD's .. in a fair equal system .. all will be given a chance to develop to their full potential.
You can't get a PHD if you have no aptitude. And, I know many people who didn't have a dime and earned their PHD.
haha .. I knew that while I wrote the post .. but if you were apt enough you would have realized the whole point was to show that poor people with high aptitude get lost in the fires of hell and never are known to the world .. in this system of unfairness .. but this again proves your inability to see and think deeply .. if you could you would have grasped it.
I don't see it that way. I know many people who had no money, but great aptitude and who managed to get their PHD. There are quite a few grants out there. And, you can borrow money to study. In Canada, if you finish your PHD, the government pays half of your university debt. They started that program to encourage students to finish their studies.
again you miss the point .. I will try again to educate you ..
the wealthy have no hurdles to jump to achieve an advanced education .. while the poor man has many hurdles just to get to the gate .. this alone limits the poor from success and even worst limits access to societies need for full use of it's resources .. many people that should have been educated because of their aptitude were not , while many went through the education system .. that really gained no value to society as a whole .. again look at yourself .. you are highly educated .. but you are worthless
I have not seen what you claim. When I studied, there were many who had no money at all. Many who came from extremely poor families. One of them is now a doctor.
well if can not understand something so simple .. than my theory proves correct once more !
I understand your theory, it just doesn't translate to reality in any way shape or form. I'm sorry to say this, but you're simple minded. Your mind only produces shallow ideas. They aren't very interesting.
it doesn't ?
you believe the poor have an equal chance of educational success .. and you can prove this how ?
I don't believe this, I know it. I come from Canada, and if you look at the laws concerning government grants and scholarships in that country you will see that the government pays for the education of the poor. And, if you have some money and must take loans, the government pays half of them if you finish your PHD. This is a new program to encourage people to further their studies.
I know many people with PHDs who had no money when they started their studies. My best friend escaped from Poland with a dollar in her pocket before the fall of communism. She made it to Canada three years later and enrolled in visual arts. She now has a PHD and is teaching in a distinguished university in europe. She has no loans to repay.
Generally speaking, formally educated people cannot think for themselves. If you really require four years of other people shoving information down your throat and you regurgitating it on tests, no you're not really educated. Now, the ability to hunt out facts and use those facts to form an idea, that is educated.
Some of the most educated people you'll ever meet, never stepped foot in a college.
You have to be able to regurgitate ideas before you can reformulate them. Now, I know you can say that you can get those ideas free from libraries, but I find it to be better to read in groups because my understanding becomes greater. That is why I won't knock my exorbitantly priced piece of paper.
False. Show me evidence, statistics, or research.
It's all anecdotal, but really since when does regurgitation of information lead to higher thinking? The smartest of us either won't finish college (we have too much ROI in other pursuits) or will finish it as more of a hobby than a necessity. A piece of paper doesn't mean you can think.
It depends what you study and what university you go to. During my bachelor's degree and my master's the most important thing I learned was proper critical thought. We weren't asked to learn this and that by heart. That happens in high-school. We spent time discussing issues and learning to explore all facets of a debate and a problem. Especially during the master's and PHD degree. Thinking it's just about learning some knowledge so that you can regurgitated later is very narrow minded. I learned to gather knowledge and process it, not regurgitate it. Perhaps you went to the wrong university. Generally speaking, I see a clear difference between someone with a high-school education and someone with a higher degree. It usually shows after a few sentences.
The smartest people I've ever met were self made and self taught. I need to know about property and tort law so I can be successful at rental properties. That means I can almost call out word for word the Fair Housing Act and my state landlord tenant law statutes. I can also use it to write a lease that is both legal and extraordinarily protective of my interests.
I know plenty of kids who have had their degrees for a few years now that wouldn't be able to do that if their life depended on it.
You studied law, that's the problem. The smartest people are in the arts: music, visual arts, philosophy, letters, etc... Law is like administration. It's technical. You don't learn much critical thought and the students who choose these disciplines are usually not the smartest ones. Law starts getting creative while doing your PHD. Music gets creative when you're 12 taking lessons with a private teacher.
You've never had to write a residential lease. Until then you have no idea what real creativity is. Nor do you have any idea what creativity is until you trim out a 100+ year old house where there is no such thing as a straight wall or a 90 deg angle.
Music and arts and all that is creative, sure. But it doesn't put a roof over anyone's head either. So if I'm going to have to choose the creativity of a musician or the creativity of a carpenter, I choose the carpenter any day of the week.
That's fine. Some care more about money than the arts. Ironically, studying music in university led me to a very well paying job. I'll pass on writing residential leases. It sounds far too boring. I'll stick with reading in the sun instead. Ah yes.... retired at the age of 35. Maestro, let's play some music!
Retirement is for the weak. If you love what you do you'll do it until you die. BTW: music is pretty boring to me too so to each his own, but I would never call law or craft uncreative either. I'm aware of all the critical thinking involved in both.
Oh, I work every day my dear. I am currently writing a novel. I'm only retired in the sense that I have enough money to do whatever I want. Have fun filling out your little forms. You are right, to each is own.
I write leases (business contracts), I don't fill them out. I have to create something from scratch that is both legal and completely covers me for any contingency. Not easy given how the laws tend to favor tenants way too much.
so than equal pay should be welcome even amongst the educated.
Hell no! That's the absolute most retarded thing I've ever heard. WHERE do you get the idea tha I would want that? People like me don't study the law and hunt through case law for the heck of it. In my case I do it so I can successfully run a small empire of rental homes, for profit! What I do takes tons of time, effort,sweat, tears, and occasionally spilt blood. The janitor who puts in his straight 40 at the high school shouldn't make anywhere near what I do. Being educated is a total waste if you don't do something productive with it.
False. Education is never wasted. At the very least, you can use it to better enjoy the multitude colors that life has to offer.
I find it hard to respect you.
Why? Because I believe pay should be directly correlate with productivity and scarcity of skills?
no because you think your special ..and you have your nose so high in the air with all your wealth .. and success .. and how did you get there .. reading some books in a quiet classroom and perhaps slinging burgers on the weekends .. where is the respect earned ?
What are you talking about? Just because I don't think a degree makes someone educated suddenly I'm acting all high and mighty? How did you get THAT exactly?
but I did not say acting .. it's who you are I was referring too .. it's written all over in everything you say and do ..it's not an act
Yeah I think people should earn their pay. That's a bad thing? Yeah, I work my ass off rehabbing properties so my household has rental income. That's a bad thing? Yeah I think that if you don't work smart you should be thankful for what little this world will give you.
If you aren't willing to work your ass off, accept the risk you may fail, and accept that if you don't do life smart you won't get ahead no matter how hard you work; you don't deserve shit.
just like I said .. I can not respect you
Why because I prefer life to not be all sunshine and rainbows? I don't respect hippies, so I guess it's a mutual disrespect. I don't get how you people want this perfect harmonious world that would be so incredibly boring. Strife makes life interesting and worth living.
strife makes life worth living ?
is that how you justify it ?
For me, yes. Without risk, without striving to achieve, without the risk of failure; I become a horribly miserable person. And I don't think I'm the only one out there. I hate having everything easy. I could just go do my job every day, save into my IRA, work for 40 years and be ok. Always have food, housing, a car, etc. But I would kill myself. So I invent strife for myself. I invested in the housing market instead of an IRA. I buy the shittiest houses you can find and work like a dog to make them into something habitable without knowing for sure that I'll be able to rent them out for decent money.
In between all that I occasionally find time and money to go to classes. The degree will hold no value for me, but it gives me something to do, to work for.
well their are millions suffering with real strife not self inflicted .. and thats a reality you do not understand.
I understand it. I'm not saying we shouldn't help Africa develop or provide more education in India to pull people out of poverty. I'm just saying that guaranteeing every need will be met will make for a very boring life.
Indigo Girls - Hammer And A Nail
Most schools do not teach you to be creative, but to learn how to learn and be a good worker!
schools are a developing discpline especially designed for as you say" good workers " .. and the capitalist will profit from the graduates .. but I do not oppose education .. we should all work together .. we simply have different gifts .. whether it be deep thinking .. strong concentration or reading skills .. or an artistic approach ..
You're a philosopher. Me too. Let me ask you - Can the wheel be reinvented? If a person is highly educated and cannot create something better than the wheel, does he lack creativity? Why don't we just hop into our flying cars instead of getting around on wheels? With all the scientists and intelligence in the world ... why the hell can't I have a flying car?
You're a philosopher? It doen't seem like it. Your questions are sophomoric at best.
Fine - a philosopher wannabe. Thanks for deflating my ego.
haha.. at one point before the internal combustion engine .. horses were the mode of transportation .. should we have stayed there when the automobile came along .. ?
I'm talking about wheels and you're talking about engines. What the hell did the horses drag behind them - could it be? wagons -- with -- wait -- here it comes --- wheels. So what if we replaced horse power with a combustion power, we still get around on wheels.
thats why you are still living in your small minded world .
no, it's called observing the real world around me. I have a great big imagination and I can imagine freely a world with flying cars <how cool would that be>, but I have to live in reality.
I call BS. you were trying to undermine this concept with an argument of "flying cars " and "can the wheel be reinvented .. what you were trying to say is that some things don't change .. I gave you an example of how society does accept change , from horses to automobiles .. comparing that with an unfair unequal paysystem to a fair equal pay system..your small minded reality just was unable to grasp the trump card I laid on you
There is no BS. There is only your opinion, my opinion, and everybody else's opinion. The more things change the more they stay the same. You've heard that before I'm sure. I can grasp the idea of equal wages. As you say .... from horses to automobiles...I'll add .... to flying cars. so with that progression in mind. I can also grasp ...from minimum wage ...to living wage...to equal wage.
Why do you keep insisting on calling me small minded, when in my original post I complimented you for thinking ahead of your time. Does anyone who has a different viewpoint than yours automatically get cut down to size, or is it just a personal thing with me.
He's a troll. You just figured that out? Why do you think I attacked him from the beginning? I don't attack everybody around here. Only trolls.
No. you're wrong. He's trying to get on just like the rest of us. You ain't helping him learn any life lessons by throwing him under the bus. His insults to the size of my mind are irrelevant, I know my own gifts. I can challenge his positions without dropping into negativity. It just pushes him further into a corner.
Challenge him all you want. He's yours. I find him to be a waste of time. His mind is too weak.
funny, I find his mind to headstrong.
it's a personal thing ..because you are small minded .. compliments or not .. and thanks for coming to my defense with trashmak. he's a pain in the rear .. and an insult to all intelligence.
what I am wondering .. is why you are smoothly trying to get on my goodside? I have no friends and can freely survive without
according to your own philosophy, trashmak is a human being --- equal ---- to you or I even if he can be a pain in the rear. I would rather try to see if there is any common ground with him rather than just jumping to conclusions about him. How would Ghandi talk to trashmak, I wonder.
Do you have a goodside for me to get on? <just kidding> I have no smooth agenda concerning you. You posted a topic, I replied. It's been good conversation for the most part.
I say living wages, you say equal wages. I say wheels, you say engines. Maybe we won't agree at the end of the day, but at least we tried.
It is my nature to play a fair hand .. when someone steps on my foot I step on theirs ..only a little harder .. I am not sure what I will do when I encounter kindness ? ..probably question its motive
sometimes it is wiser to play a better hand. Not easier, but wiser. I learned a long time ago not to worry so much about motives, or even single actions, but to judge only on observable track records. After all, any man can trip over his own foot from time to time.
yes but to let down ones guard in the wrong moment can be fatal. the safest course is always the best course .. not?
Nothing is black and white. so that should answer your question. but if it doesn't. consider this - if you only allow yourself one option, you're not playing with a full deck at your disposal. Better to have options. IMO.
jadedcitizen if you would like to continue please start a fresh comment .. this one won't allow anymore replies.
I will not reconsider equal wages .. at this point.. it would be like reconsidering freedom .. you know not what you ask.
you consider the option of trust an important part of life .But wars are not won with kind hands .. even though the outcome would be peace. this is reality .. considering all options all cards .. the enemy will never surrender without a fight. and to have kindness in your blood would weaken you in the enemies eyes .. and he would prey on that weakness .. and you would become vulnerable .. and thus not survive.. but the enemy has weakness too .. and it is their we should focus our attention and support our allies , not undermine their resolve. with words of subtlety designed to lower ones guard. and falter .. trip over his own feet .. it's all a very clever trick jaded citzen .. plant doubt in the enemies mind .. and he will trip.
I thought I was the jaded one and you were the friendly one.
Kindness is always an option my friend.
"An eye for an eye only makes the whole world blind" ~Gandhi.
"I shall pass through this world but once. Any good therefore that I can do or any kindness that I can show to any human being, let me do it now. Let me not defer or neglect it, for I shall not pass this way again." ~Gandhi.
Three-fourths of the miseries and misunderstandings in the world will disappear if we step into the shoes of our adversaries and understand their standpoint." ~Gandhi.
I apologize if you see my words as sowing doubt in your mind and weakening your resolve. I humbly ask you to reflect on my words and give them some weight. Is it an attack to ask someone to reconsider his position on an issue. I would request that you reconsider your position on equal wages based on the merits of my argument for living wages, but it is your choice to make. Peace.
We are all divided because we have no common enemy. We need a nice big fat WWIII to engage in on an international level. We need to start a war with China; make China the common enemy; and then all work together to knock China down a peg or two. Only then will we see eye-to-eye. Only then will we all have common ground. Just look how great this Country was after WWII. And I might add that if we don't kick China's ass now... we will be facing a much stronger enemy in the future.
lets make Capitalism our common enemy , " the enenmy within." they are deeply entrenched and will be hard to defeat.
How about focusing on consumerism. Since this is the aspect of capitalism that the 99% have any control over.
Bravo ! See http://occupywallst.org/forum/the-power-of-the-people/ and the consumer guidelines I extracted from these forums and hosted at http://bit.ly/DoYourBit where they are widely accessible and sharable via social media. Note there are no adds, and I have no agenda other than to help America. Also note I 'depoliticized' the message so it would be acceptable to conservatives ( but I still managed to sneak in the "don't use debit/credit" rule and the "do business with humans" rule from http://occupywallst.org/forum/the-rise-of-the-machines/ ).
If you like what you see at http://bit.ly/DoYourBit , please spread the link as far and wide as possible via e-mail, face-book, twitter, etc... we need a lot of consumers to start using their consumer power more responsibly. Thanks !
When Democracy functions along-side Capitalism in an honest, forthright manner-- it is a win-win situation for all. However, the cowards in Congress have destroyed both Democracy and Capitalism to the tune of $16 Trillion dollars and I do not believe this Country can recover from that. They deserve to be imprisoned. All of them. And we need to start from scratch and build a new nation where such cowardly, amoral two-faced representation will never be allowed to step foot on American soil again.
the true enemy is capitalism .. and no one wants to admit this .. no one in congress and none of the citizens .. everyone believes capitalism is the best thing in the world and they will die hanging onto it .. we were all brainwashed .. but some are begining to see it is failing ..
Correction. My prior statement was in reference to the 'past'. I will accept your premise that something 'new'... something 'different' needs to be created to replace what we have been doing so far. I'll accept your premise; although I don't see any formal solutions coming out to replace the current system. I guess we'll just have to wait and see...
well a simple correction to capitalism is to apply a CAP on sales profits ..
one thing I would like to mention .. even though the debt is nearly 15 trillion dollars .. this proves that the government has not held back .. hoarded the taxes collected .. instead they have been spending like drunken sailors .. which is dynamite for capitalism ! .. on the other hand the wealthy are hoarding their money [ where do you think that 15 trillion is ? ] and it is because of their hoarding that the economy suffers .. so for this view we no longer should focus on the government spending but rather on th wealthy hoarding ... so what do we do about it ? some suggest tax the wealthy .. but that has consequences of further economic disaster ..
So I suggest CAP the profit margin and not allow the wealthy to take so much in the first place .. this will leave an evener distribution of wealth .. and perhaps keep everyone in an affordable well maintained lifestyle .. basically the rich have it all ... and we need to stop letting them take so much with a CAP.
It's a simple fix .. a silver bullet .. and some argue its not complicated enough to actually work !!?
Interesting premise. Isn't it sad that there are people in this world that are so greedy that you actually have to suggest such a 'silver bullet' to correct a crisis situation. If all the wealthy met together and pooled their resources, they could pay off the Deficit in nothing flat. But, typically, the wealthy will argue with you about the price of a toothbrush... before they would give up one cent to participate in your proposed solution.