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Forum Post: democratic irony

Posted 5 years ago on Feb. 21, 2016, 10:20 a.m. EST by agkaiser (2486) from Fredericksburg, TX
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

February 17, 2016's "Mysteries of Laura" was a 'democracy for Cuba' propaganda piece. Almost every tv series runs such at intervals. One thing they all have in common with each other, news media and politicians in America is the conflation of democracy with the freedom to acquire unlimited wealth by hiring others to work for you or by the creation rental streams from owned property.

When will we see that domination by elite classes of owners, empowered by their property [accounted as money] to extract the profits of our work, is a threat to our survival. Their freedom is to make debt slaves of us. And we hate any, such as Cuba, who interfere with the freedom of our esteemed masters to own them and all they do. What's even more unforgivable is the implication that we are what we are. It isn't slavery we hate. It's admitting to consciousness the knowledge that we are the slaves of the billionaires' centrally controlled Wall St. economy.



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[-] 1 points by beautifulworld (23395) 5 years ago


[-] 1 points by agkaiser (2486) from Fredericksburg, TX 5 years ago

beyond irony

[-] 3 points by ImNotMe (1488) 5 years ago

''Occupy Hillary Clinton’s Wall Street Speeches'', by Marjorie Cohn:

From which, I excerpt ... ''Hillary Clinton refuses to make public the transcripts of her speeches to big banks, three of which were worth a total of $675,000 to Goldman Sachs. She says she would release the transcripts “if everybody does it, and that includes Republicans.” After all, she complained,“Why's there one standard for me, and not for everybody else?”

''As the New York Times editorial board pointed out, “The only different standard here is the one Mrs. Clinton set for herself, by personally earning $11 million in 2014 and the first quarter of 2015 .. for 51 speeches to banks and other groups and industries.”

''Hillary is not running in the primaries against Republicans, who, the Times noted, “make no bones about their commitment to Wall Street deregulation and - Tax Cuts For The Wealthiest Americans.”

Hillary Rotten Clinton ''is running against Bernie Sanders “a decades-long critic of Wall Street excess who is hardly a hot ticket on the industry speaking circuit,” according to the Times." Hmmmm. Also..

e tenebris, lux?

[-] 1 points by Viking (417) 5 years ago

"Occupy Hillary['s]... Wall Street Speeches"?? I didn't do that, but I did go to NYC yesterday to protest near her rally at the Javit's center. It was not a good idea tho..lol, and since it was a blustery walk down to the event, I went inside to warm up.

I did get thru security with my new BDS shirt on (although I had to open my jacket), and had a 9x13" poster underneath the shirt, but realized that it was not a good idea in bringing it out at her rally, as there were a mess of rabid supporters of her's there, and I like my life! lol. I came to the conclusion that either they were all nuts, or me. Anyway my poster said, YOU LIKE WAR, VOTE FOR HILLARY.

I was intrigued by it all, and sadly got to see Mayor de Blasio, Governor Cuomo and a couple other people endorse Hillary, then I listened to about 5 minutes of her BS and left.

When I got back to the bus terminal, I decided to tape my poster up in an area where it would get lots of exposure. Then I got on the bus for home, and caught some zzzzz's on my trip.

I might not agree with everyone on how our revolution should proceed, but we should all agree, that all resistance is good.

[-] 3 points by ImNotMe (1488) 5 years ago

Great report back & rest assured that I'm interested in any and all genuine views re. ''how our revolution should proceed'' from people like you ... as opposed to the likes of well known and definitively identified forum enemies that the p-o-s below. I totally agree ''that all resistance is good'' though & finally fyi see..

e tenebris, lux ...

[-] 1 points by Viking (417) 5 years ago

Thanks, but you really gotta have a talk with one of your fellow countrymen, Elton John. It seems that he thinks we should vote for Hillary as he and, other performers were at a big $ fund raiser for her later in the day at Radio City Music Hall. I guess stupidity is not found solely on this side of the pond....;) I do suspect that they had good viddles there at RC, unlike at the Javit's Center where there was none. That's OK, I got a pizza after I got home.

I did get a free AFT (American Federation of Teachers) For Hillary tee shirt while I was there. I plan to give that to a creative artist friend, Marni and she can use it somehow as a prop, or as a nightgown, as it is a 3 XL. Or maybe, we can use it as a door mat at our AB meetings.

[-] 3 points by ImNotMe (1488) 5 years ago

Re.Elton John, I'm denying any association and affiliation and the only words I'd have with him would be ''GetTF Up''!!! Which would be after I knocked his SHillary lovin' reactionary ass to the floor!! As you are no doubt guessing - I'm NOT really a big fan of his [bar ''Tiny Dancer'': https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hoskDZRLOCs ] - but I am very aware of his ''establishmentarian'' inclinations!

Why would Marni or you use your AFT-Tshirt as a door mat?! Don't tell me that the AFT leadership are another bunch of Hitlary lovin' sell outs!! It amazes me how the Black,Latino and White ''Establishment'' has been threatened, suckered, lied to & bribed by the Billary Clinton Machine!!!

Good luck with the ''viddles'' next time and re. Hillary Rotten Clinton, I will leave you this with I reminder that my shoulder is to the wheel for Bernie and Bernie Sanders alone and NOT the infernal Democraps!

omnia causa fiunt ...

EDIT: Just saw the ''free AFT (American Federation of Teachers) For Hillary tee shirt'' full line! Sheeesh!!

There is much food for thought there BUT no excuses for inaction or apathy. Solidarity to you and yours.

multum in parvo ...

[-] 3 points by Viking (417) 5 years ago

EDIT (below).. Incredibly, it was a union rally at the Javit's center. Having them rally for Hillary seemed stupid to me. LiUNA (Laborers International Union North America) probably had the biggest presence, followed closely by the AFT, and the SEIU (Service Employees International Union - think Nevada casino workers), and other ones. The UFT (part of the larger AFT.... it's confusing to me) and the SEIU were very supportive of early Occupy, now, like you .. thought (me too)... they're sell outs! I suspect a lot of members don't listen to their leaders tho...

EDIT ... Good links which I had read earlier, but why wait till July. MO we should multi task and have an alternative candidate/plan in the works.. and that should include the Democraps knowing (if Sanders loses), we will not vote for Hillary.... no matter what!! To wait for her to make concessions if she wins, will also mean us putting trust in her. Now, that would be INSANE!

[-] 2 points by ImNotMe (1488) 5 years ago

Re. Workers' Membership of Unions; I am a BIG fan! Re. Union Leadership; I am NOT!! Sell Out Scum!!!

I'm not sure what's possible if/when Bernie gets finagled out, but we stumble on and I take strength from Kshama Sawant's 2016 SOTU response: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30pdyzWOxnE but I've got an excellent article re GOP history for you here now and then, another re. the Dem/HRC/DNC mularkey:

fiat lux et per ardua ad astra ...

[-] 2 points by Viking (417) 5 years ago

I don't understand. You're a "BIG fan.." of the "Union Leadership" that is supporting Hillary??

[-] 3 points by ImNotMe (1488) 5 years ago

You have misread & TOTALLY misunderstood what I said!!! Re-read & revert - if you wish & I will reply in due course!! I'm off now to try put my shoulder to the wheel - with others, for Bernie! I'm not sure how I or anyone else on this forum could be ''supporting'' of anyone ''supporting Hillary'' lol + fyi - maybe consider:

ad iudicium ...

[-] 2 points by Viking (417) 5 years ago

Yes, I did reread your comment, my mistake, sorry. I misread it quickly just before leaving for the day.

EDIT Don't forget that this (?) happens about a week earlier than last year.


[-] 2 points by ImNotMe (1488) 5 years ago

Re. http://www.leftforum.org/ that's an excellent reminder!!! Thanx! No worries re. misread, shit happens!

Also perhaps try to later consider ... ''The energetic Sanders supporters, including the Millennials who voted so heavily for Bernie, could form a New Progressive movement to exercise a policy pull on the establishment Democrats before November and to be a growing magnet after November with the objective of taking over the Democratic Party starting with winning local elections. This will have long-term benefits for the USA.

''To those who point to history throwing water on such a potential breakout, I tell them to look at the 2016 presidential primaries. All bets are off when political debates become big media business with huge ratings, and when a gambling czar and builder of expensive real estate, Donald Trump (a hybrid Rep/Dem), is overturning all the old homilies about presidential politics, and is in a primary contest with two freshmen Senators whose vacuous ambitions are their only achievements.''

Which is just how the Ralph Nader article -[ http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article44372.htm ] ends. I'm not sure what to make of that - especially as it comes from the likes of ... Ralph ''Independent who gives frf ulcers''Nader but no doubt such matters will be hashed a whole lot more at The Left Forum, which will be particularly interesting and exciting this year. Hope you can attend - and please consider a report-back in comments & replies or as forum-posts. Trashyharry did it last year.I will remind her again.


[-] 3 points by Viking (417) 5 years ago

I would, NEVER endorse any type of alliance, or would want our struggle to pander to the Democratic Party in any way! Nothing good would come out of that.

[-] 2 points by ImNotMe (1488) 5 years ago

The DNC and Democrap Establishment are dog shit & horse shit, adding up to pig shit!!! I agree with you BUT .. we have to differentiate from DNC (DWS etc.); Democrap Establishment and Pols ... and Dem voters past & present!! Many folk willl have voted D, not because they're parDisans but because like wiping one's ass, ie. not a nice subject for after dinner chat BUT consider - wtf was their option?!

What we - u, I, OWS, Berners & http://www.leftforum.org/ etc. have to do is help wake people up and give them hope .. not for instant fixes maybe but a developing, movement of The 99%. With this - and much more in mind & to boot Hillary Rotten Clinton & help to expose her forked tongue, I append this:

per aspera ad astra ...

[-] 3 points by Viking (417) 5 years ago

The Democratic Party and those who support it should be vehemently repudiated, and exposed. Trying to reform it, using euphemistic sounding, kumbaya language is not an option, otherwise we will be just setting ourselves up for being swallowed by it. Of course, anyone who wants to leave it should be welcomed.

[-] 1 points by grapes (5232) 5 years ago

I second that. Bern it down or Trump it up to Marss! Vaterland, Vaterland, über alles - ich liebe Dich!

[-] 1 points by fionachuckles (-375) from Fairview, NJ 5 years ago

Wrote a rap song for Trump....

Trump It Up

Gonna Trump it up!
Gonna Pump it up!
And when he takes a dump,
Gonna lump it up!

Gonna Trump it up!
Gonna Bump it up!
And when he makes a jump,
Gonna stump him up.

Gonna Trump it up!
Gonna thump it up!
And when he goes all grump,
Gonna gump him up...

Forest Gump that is!

[-] 1 points by Viking (417) 5 years ago

I love Kshama Sawant, and the courage that she displays. Trump is just mouthing the xenophobic, racist language of what unfortunately has become the mainstay of his party.

Here's a spoof on Trump that has levity to it, but in reality it is sadly accurate.


[-] 3 points by ImNotMe (1488) 5 years ago

''Voters For Trump Ad by SNL'' - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qg0pO9VG1J8 was funny yet also somewhat paradoxically sobering!!! Many a truth in jest - eh?!! Didn't Michael Moore write a book about Herr Drumf's core constituency [ http://www.theguardian.com/books/2002/mar/30/features.weekend ]?!

I concur with what you say about Kshama Sawant - and her perspective is VERY important in these perhaps somewhat unexpected but definitely exciting times. For a much more scholarly perspective from Noam Chomsky, consider ...

Re. your reply below [ http://occupywallst.org/forum/democratic-irony/#comment-1070000 ] ... consider that we must differentiate between the Democrap Machine & Pols on The Hill & in states & locally and The Infernal DNC - AND The Long Suffering Voters who have been voting Dem hoping that The Party of FDR, JFK & LBJ could be found again!!! ''Kumbaya'' doesn't come into it!! Just hard work and solidarity!

dum spiro, spero ...

[-] 2 points by Viking (417) 5 years ago

It's soon time for Sanders to make a decision whether he wins or loses, to quit talking out of both sides of his mouth, and to lead this revolution... By either going on the attack against Hillary, and to repudiate her for having betrayed the 99% ... OR to coddle up to her and her corrupt friends, so that he can regain his positions in the Senate, and live a hypocritical life. His choice, but it cannot be both...

Time for Sanders to Play Hardball


[-] 2 points by ImNotMe (1488) 5 years ago

''Pollster Nate Silver gave Hillary a greater than 99% chance of winning.In the final 48 hours, Bernie and his multitude of supporters achieved the impossible: they closed a 21-point gap in the polls. The Bernie campaign is working toward a political revolution, and they’re playing to win.'' Re. Michigan & excerpted from this (imo) indispensable article ...

I read your linked article with great interest and I've linked to Dave Lindorff's articles often on the forum. I'm in agreement with much/most of it but I am unaware of how any of us can expect perfection on all matters from Sanders .. before we accept that his platform is the nearest to OWS and The Essential 99% demands in U$A right now & the MOST progressive platform to be offered in U$A for 70+ years!

I'll take any example of Bernie: ''talking out of both sides of his mouth'' that you can offer and I'll caution against disdain and hatred - however justified of The Democrap Establishment / DNC / HRC / Obomber etc. clouding judgement re. Sanders and what he offers The US 99%. The OWS 99% Movement is ON! IF Bernie has to jump through loops for The Left then such as; http://www.leftforum.org/ need to say so.

ad iudicium ...

[-] 1 points by Viking (417) 5 years ago

You missed this link, the most powerful one IMO... for your case! It literally made me cry, the first time I saw it.. It still makes me tear up...

Muslim Student Asks About Islamophobia / Bernie Sanders


The trouble is that it is totally incongruous with his being a supporter of a genocidal regime like Israel; for his support of war; his militarism and his pledged support of Hillary, if he loses. I do get it though. He has gotten to be where he is by making concessions to TPTB. It is time that comes to and end.. When and if it does, he will have my full support.

[-] 0 points by ImNotMe (1488) 5 years ago

Is anyone but Bernie speaking like he does in your excellent video link above, which I'm not sure where or how I ''missed''?! You then say that his words and sentiments are ''totally incongruous with his being a supporter of a genocidal regime like Israel; for his support of war; his militarism ...'' ie. that he's being insincere but where is the evidence for that?!! Yes, any ''pledged support for Hillary'' is problematic - but that has a large element of ''practical / appearance politics'' imo - as IF he does not then he will alienate the numerous low-info, Democrap loyalists as politics is an imprecise / ''dirty'' business .. but right now, what is really at stake is the domestic economic justice issues!!! Compare and contrast the following ...

From my ''Guardian'' link in my previous reply, consider - ''JR and Nadia are an African American couple in their 20s - they are smart, and passionately committed. JR says: “People can do their research at the speed of light. Watch the old videos and see the consistency of Bernie Sanders: he is not going to sell out as soon as he becomes president. So that’s why everyone’s so energised – it’s a once in a lifetime opportunity.”

“The internet is leading his campaign,” adds Nadia. “We weren’t half so knowledgeable 7 months ago.”

''I ask them how the Sanders movement connects to Black Lives Matter. They respond immediately: “Justice. Equality and Fairness. Ending systemic racism and mass incarceration. Income inequality, environmental justice. It’s all linked.”

Bernie Sanders has the support of legions of OWS supporters for a reason. He is the best there's been from a US 99% p-o-v - for generations. Is he perfect? NO! Would he be the best POTUS for The 99% in The U$A right now?!! Well I'm not sure how anyone can rationally and evidentially argue otherwise - but I'll face and respond to any evidence provided tho' imo - Bernie Sanders is THE ONLY POTUS wannabe with the record & integrity to take on The 0.01%'s Neoliberal Austerity & Privatization; Profit Before The People avaricious psychopathology!!! Let Love, Light & Logic reign! Viva OWS! Viva The 99%! Solidarity.

per aspera ad astra ...

[-] 3 points by Viking (417) 5 years ago

Look, my friend, I will never give my full support to Sanders until he repudiates his positions on Israel and the imperial wars we have undertaken. You might think that I should accept all the good things that he has done for our revolution, overlook some things for now and that I should be patient, wait and take this in stages. I did that in 2008, and I will not do it again!

I had mixed feelings today on whether I should attend my Alt Banking meeting at Columbia Uni.., or join a rally, a Day For Peace and Solidarity starting in midtown (see link), and ending at the UN. I chose the former.


This is the rally I missed today...


I will limit speaking for other members of the group, except to say that neither of us are alone in our way of thinking (as I said to you before), and how our revolution should proceed. I also think that it is fair to say that there was no unbridled opinion, either way.

I will say this also; The overwhelming majority of people in our group (about 20 people there today) respect each other, and are honest with each other, and are altruistic in wanting a better World. So, I did take a chance, and had my say.

Being the loose cannon that I am, and while on the subject of Sanders and Hillary, I took my turn to speak, I blatantly asserted that Islamophobia is racism, and I could not understand how Hillary got the support that she did from blacks, especially in the South, since in my view... xenophobia/Islamophobia and racism drove the war on terror. Those are basically the same injustices that have persecuted people here for oh so long. And that it was most hypocritical for Hillary, the war monger now to be supported by blacks, and other people of color who themselves have been victims for so long.

I kind of expected for all hell to break loose (maybe a Trump-like brawl to ensue.. lol), but surprisingly and happily to me, my spiel was well received, especially by one of the very active members and friend who vigorously concurred with what I said, and who happens to be black. I did Thank him for his support after the meeting ended.

I, as well as I think everyone in our group fully realize that Sanders is not Hillary.. BIG time (!!), but for 'me', he has to divorce himself from her, and his past support for militarism far more than he has to date!

[-] 1 points by ImNotMe (1488) 5 years ago

I thought "The Ragging Grannies", were great and liked your video very much. It speaks volumes of your empathic heart and political consciousness, that you were even thinking of joining that ... ''Day of Peace and Solidarity Rally and March'' in NYC. However - I'm glad your Alt. Banking comrades got to hear your thoughts re. Bernie and Hillary.

I myself am like you, in that I don't have a good word to say about Hitlary Rotten Clinton - as opprobrium is the only justified response to her corruption, hypocrisy and mendacity and I offer this really interesting video as proof of that:

I accept and respect your position re.Sanders and his palpably tepid positions re. The Zionist-Apartheid Entity and the US Military Industrial Complex. I won't go into either at length here tho' you'll have a good idea of my views on both from our years on this forum but suffice it to say for now, that I do think Bernie feels that he has to hold fire on some things - because of the political consequences. You may call that ''hypocrisy'' but right now with soooo much at stake for The US 99% .. I'll prefer to use the word ''politic''!

So - when you say ... ''You might think that I should accept all the good things that he has done for our revolution, overlook some things for now and that I should be patient, wait and take this in stages. I did that in 2008, and I will not do it again!'' Look comrade .. yes, I think you should focus on what he's done & is doing for The Political Revolution that The US 99% ... BUT NO ... you need not ''overlook'' anything! Patience is a virtue they say but so can impatience and recalcitrance be!! And Realism - is Subjective!!!

Now I do think your last line re.2008 is telling tho'. After that psychopathic, ex drunk and coke head, R-W dynastic Nut Job STOLE 2 Elections and was the central player to fucking up the world this century, ''The System'' offered up a one term Senator .. educated, intelligent, eloquent Black Guy with an Arabic middle name and many, many millions of us - all across the globe thought ... ''Oh Thank Goodness and Providence For That'' ... in our desperation for something better after 8 years of the warmongering GWB.

It did not take long for many of us to be disabused of those feelings tho' and the more that time went by the more we saw The Obomber for the Oblah-blah that he was AND was supposed to be - so Obummer feelings ensued.However for all Obama's talk of ''Hope & Change''he wasn't really changing anything but Sanders isn't all mouth & no trousers or all hat & no cattle if you prefer! He's a time served contrarian to The RW Political Establishment, who has been consistently ploughing a lonely furrow, for over 50 years.

There's more reason to believe that Sanders is and can be much of what Obama promised he would be. The US 99% need someone who isn't in league with The 0.01% and pandering to The 1%. Sanders and The 99% Movement that he is trying to build, is the best method for The US 99% - who sadly have been farmed to be Turkeys Voting For Thanksgiving for far, far too long. Win or lose .. Sanders has ridden the OWS wave and seeded a now much raised political consciousness .. for a very long time, going forward.

My last point in reply to you is in regard to the African-American vote. I actually believe that it should be differentiated generationally and geographically. For many good historical reasons - Churches have been Very Important in The South but now .. they've been used to Co-opt The Southern Black Vote and a way to mobilise and manipulate that vote by The Clinton Machine but time & political realities, will dilute this.

People like John Lewis & even sadly Dolores Huerta show what happens when leadership gets co-opted by The Establishment via the corrupt Democrap Machine. However all those people under 40, are not so hoodwinked and the power of The Church is much less a factor in the Northern and Western States and here's a very interesting link to a recent excellent article by Michelle Alexander which explains so much

I'll end by saying that neither of us are political neophytes and we have our views and opinions .. but our common desires and interests for The 99%,are what bought us to OWS in the first place four and a half years ago & it's because we believe in the possibility of a raised political awareness and consciousness leading to Positive Democratic Change For The 99%.. that we both do what we do - here and elsewhere, in comradeship. Solidarity to you and yours and a wee reminder to readers re. http://www.leftforum.org/

pax, amor et lux et per ardua ad astra ...

[-] -2 points by fionachuckles (-375) from Fairview, NJ 5 years ago

With Trump set to become the next President of US, we can safely say that OWS is dead.

[-] 2 points by grapes (5232) 5 years ago

OWS is dead and living in New York! We'll leave the Light on for you.

[-] -1 points by fionachuckles (-375) from Fairview, NJ 5 years ago

Well, it's cool if NYC is leftist and OWS lives on there. Unfortunately, that's not enough weight to change things for the whole country. Trump will take over and well, you know... US won't be the same anymore.

Obama -> OWS -> Trump

That's the progression we are seeing, not:

Obama -> OWS -> Sanders

Unfortunately, whether you want to admit it or not, US is turning towards the right and towards conservatism, not towards socialism.

[-] 1 points by grapes (5232) 5 years ago

Either Trump or Sanders is NON-establishment. New York values are not about socialism, capitalism, etc. They are about compromise, tolerance, getting along, or living in parallel universes. I, for example, was disgusted by abortions but their legality had been settled decades ago in Roe v. Wade so they don't matter to me anymore.

I prefer Sanders more than Trump because Sanders' proposals match OWS's goals better but Trump's winning will lock out the GOP establishment's control. Besides, if Trump becomes the GOP nominee, he may activate so many voters to vote against him that Sanders would be a shoo-in. Of course, I am hoping that Mx. Cheese will be disqualified because it may well be four more years of impotent and incompetent governance, just more satire of campaign poetry.

[-] 1 points by ImNotMe (1488) 5 years ago

There is no collective noun or pronoun in any language on this planet ... that can possibly make ... You [ http://occupywallst.org/users/Thrasymaque/ ] & I - into any sort of ''we''! All that ''can safely'' be said is you are mentally ill and a ''born sophist''!! And you're also: a gutless; scheming; vile; cunTboy, to boot!!!

et temet nosce ...

[-] -3 points by fionachuckles (-375) from Fairview, NJ 5 years ago

We are allies, whether you choose to accept it or not makes no difference. We both have the same goal - we dream for a socialized America. Our main difference is that I am a scholar, and you a conspiracy theorist. I follow Foucault, you follow David Icke and Alex Jones. I follow peer-reviewed journals, you follow youtube videos made by 16 year olds that tell you the twin towards were hit by holographic planes. You a conspiratard, me an intellectual powerhouse.

[-] 2 points by ImNotMe (1488) 5 years ago

So you are "a scholar'' & ''intellectual powerhouse'' are you, lolol?!!! Nope, but you are ''a lie'' - whereas, I have friends, comrades and ''allies'' in real & virtual life!! You have really no fkn idea, what you are talking about but like the rest of your life up to now ... you try to learn what you should say in order to ingratiate yourself with others but eventually your arrogance and baseless, conceited, dorkish egotism fractures & your real, inner nature unravels for all to see, wherever it is that u may be .. so go ''peer-review'' that now!

temet nosce et fiat lux ...

[-] -3 points by fionachuckles (-375) from Fairview, NJ 5 years ago

If only you would drop your flawed conspiracy theory type thinking and push your intellectual potential to new heights. Hard work on your part, for sure, but you would be rewarded!

[-] -3 points by fionachuckles (-375) from Fairview, NJ 5 years ago

I was nicknamed PIP during my heyday at Princeton - Princeton's Intellectual Prince or Princeton's Intellectual Powerhouse depending who you talk to. It was a long standing tradition to name a PIP every year. I got a PH.D. so I guess that does make me a scholar no?

[-] 3 points by ImNotMe (1488) 5 years ago

So you "got a PH.D. so I guess that does make me a scholar" - errrr ''no'' lol!!! NOT without evidence ie.: what was the subject & title of your thesis & where did you do it & who awarded you your doctorate & which ''peer reviewed journal'' were you published in?!! Btw, you mendacious blowhard .. it is - PhD or Ph.D. or even DPhil., BUT NEVER ''PH.D.'' so who would make that mistake, who really was/had one?!

You made the very same ass-ertion once before & made the very same revelatory mistake but no doubt you'll change or delete your b-s now & try to remember it for when you use the same lie again! However, you are in that classic trap of liars .. in that you can not remember what lie you said to who, never mind when!! I'm motivated to reply to you here - not so much to expose your lies - because you eventually do that quite well yourself but to make known non Corporate MSM ideas!!! Ergo given your probable secret affiliation for Herr Drumf, consider ...

multum in parvo ...

[-] -3 points by fionachuckles (-375) from Fairview, NJ 5 years ago

I guess you're right, I don't have a PH.D. from Princeton after all. ;-)

[-] 1 points by grapes (5232) 5 years ago

That's great news! Welcome! Princeton really sucks because it produces so many stuck-up stooges for the financial eelites, many in Manhattan. I don't like henchmen for the oligarchs. There are better universities, though associated with the rich, which are trying hard to do good. I don't have a problem with beauty, wealth, or intellect if they serve better purposes.

[-] 2 points by ImNotMe (1488) 5 years ago

The thing is the master of mendacity up ^there^ - fetishes ''beauty, wealth'' but ''intellect'' is above all else what he wishes he had rather than just the raw, base, crafty, ''id rooted'' cunning that he has in spades!!! His ''PH.D'' fixation - speaks volumes too, lol!! But I digress! I reply here so as to slide these your way ...

respice; adspice; prospice ...

[-] 1 points by turbocharger (1756) 5 years ago

Hysterical. Where did you go to school there billy madison?

Let me guess. You didnt need to go to school to become a scholar lol.

Oh man, we are a freakin mess lol.

[-] -3 points by fionachuckles (-375) from Fairview, NJ 5 years ago

Ah ah Mr. Conspiratard, I have more schooling than you will ever have. Can you spell Princeton. ;-)

[-] 3 points by turbocharger (1756) 5 years ago

Really? Thats interesting. What was the major?

[-] -2 points by fionachuckles (-375) from Fairview, NJ 5 years ago

None of your business.

[-] 2 points by turbocharger (1756) 5 years ago

Thats exactly what I thought lol.

I'm heading out for the night, enjoy your weekend. You are a good debater, I will give you that much.

[-] -2 points by fionachuckles (-375) from Fairview, NJ 5 years ago

You seem obsessed with logical fallacies. That surprises me for someone who claims to have studied sciences. You seem more interested in who says something, (appeal to authority), what kind of education that person has (appeal to authority again), etc... than actual scientific ideas that went through the scientific process.

I believe it is important for a person to learn to separate an idea form the proposer. You should learn to look at ideas on their own merits, without caring who brought them up, what education they have, where and what they studied, etc...

Idea that are vetted by the scientific method are the best. They went through the ringer. Serious peer-reviewed journals are important.

It's your choice to believe the conspiratard videos made by 14 year olds who claim holographic planes or other such nonsense without having to defend their ideas through the scientific process.

The only person you are hurting is yourself.

You claim to have studied sciences, but, in the end, that matters little if you think like a conspiratard.

[-] 3 points by ImNotMe (1488) 5 years ago

''Hillary Clinton, Corporate America and the Democrats' Dilemma'', by David Niose:

"The smart way to keep people passive and obedient," says noted activist and author Noam Chomsky, "is to strictly limit the spectrum of acceptable opinion, but allow very lively debate within that spectrum." As far as the corporate establishment is concerned, its good friend Hillary Clinton should define the liberal end of the "spectrum of acceptable opinion," thus keeping the entire spectrum corporate-friendly. If she wins, conservative commentators will react with alarm and relentlessly lash out at her as a "dangerous liberal," but corporate overlords will sleep well at night knowing everything is fine.'' Also fyi ...

e tenebris, lux?

[-] 1 points by ImNotMe (1488) 5 years ago

To live in a Capitalist Society & to then resist Capitalism is only as hypocritical or ironic as slaves opposing slavery! Thanx for this excellent, succinct and spot on forum-post & in compliment - see:

fiat lux et fiat justitia...

[-] 1 points by turbocharger (1756) 5 years ago

What would a free market of people innovating and working together, with politicians not allowed to accept lobbyist money and power decentralized to the community, look like?

I think I would like that.

[-] 1 points by ImNotMe (1488) 5 years ago

Adam Smith warned against unmitigated markets .. if only people would really read ''Wealth of Nations'' properly, imo. Modern ''High-Finance / Low Ethics'' .. Corrupt, Corporate, Cartel, Collusion Capitalism is Crap!!! Mean, Manipulative, MSM Monopolies only push this putrid reality ... disguised by disingenuous, duplicitous talk of ''Free Markets''!!! I'm truly all for a Transparently Free Market, where the talents, ideas and inspiration of the brightest and best .. can come to the fore and benefit the individual and also wider society but that isn't what we have!! Democratically we CAN organise society .. for the good of The 99% and even the 100% but alas, some folk will NEVER accept that they have to share anything with others!

The solutions are in Education and Democracy - with Agitation and Organisation in between. I believe in Free Association & Trade but also in Transparency. That's why I'm a Libertarian Socialist. Look no links!

per ardua ad astra ...

[-] 1 points by turbocharger (1756) 5 years ago

Its not what we have. The people continue to put the two most corrupted political parties we have into power.

Hence we are still stuck on fossil fuels, we are still driving cars with putrid mpg, we are going backwards in education, healthcare and its technology continues to get more expensive instead of cheaper, etc etc etc.

Do you know you can buy the best MRI machine out there for 3 million? Factor in one scan a day for 5 years and it costs $1600 per use.

Assuming- now this is a stretch lol- that in a city maybe 16 people a day need an MRI, and we are looking at $100 per use. Go with a standard double of COGS for the business and its $200 per use.

Thats what raw innovation would look like.

You can also buy them used for $200k. You then need to make $108 per day to get your money back in 5 years.

This isn't capitalism. This is corporatism/fascism/raw corruption. And it happens in countries with all sorts of "isms" if the idiot people go to sleep.

Switching the 'ism" here will be meaningless if the people dont want to wake the fuck up.

[-] 1 points by ImNotMe (1488) 5 years ago

There is really little or no point in quasi-religiously saying ... ''this isn't capitalism'' when this is EXACTLY the kind of Crapitalism that Karl Marx predicted would evolve!!! Its creation is .. inherent in the direct and inescapable result of its own twisted internal logic of dog eat dog, the biggest and brashest eat ... digest and discard the weakest or slowest & The Devil Take The Hindmost!! It's the Logic of The Jungle beloved of the all those warped lovers of Ayn 'Fkn Nutjob' Rand & in Alan Greenspan's case .. that's literally true!

Btw, what you describe was a good exposition of the Economies of Scale case for Universal Healthcare. I do NOT equate the ''isms'' (which are mere words)- as I differentiate the underlying ethics & philosophy. The real choice will be {if it's not already} between Democracy & Humanism and Barbarism & Fascism!!!

However I do TOTALLY agree that it's ALL about getting we, the people to WTFU!! This is where we may disagree tho', in that I believe Sanders, win or lose - has an Enormous Part To Play re. ''Wake Up USA''!

ad iudicium ...

[-] 0 points by turbocharger (1756) 5 years ago

Marx's ideas, when implemented, have proven to lead to horrific results as well sometimes. Read http://www.amazon.com/Philosophic-Manuscripts-Communist-Manifesto-Philosophy/dp/087975446X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1456097045&sr=8-1&keywords=Economic+and+Philosophic+Manuscripts+of+1844

Economies of scale are a good things, but there become a situation where things are simply too big to manage. Canadas healthcare is a mess, and they are 10% our size. Also, it wont be talented people running it, it will be the usual bureaucrats making a mess of it all as usual.

You want to see success? Let the people of Tampa, Chicago, any other area, decided to create socialized medicine and start figuring it out. Keep it decentralized.

It is impossible to create a system that can effectively manage the health of 330 million unique individuals. Managing it on a state wide basis would be a nightmare (results similar to Canada, other Eurozone members, etc).

Forget about nationally. They can't even manage the VA appropriately.

And I understand what you say about "isms" vs just being a humanist. But at some point systems have to be laid out on how to manage the nation, and we ultimately end up in "ism" territory.

[-] 1 points by ImNotMe (1488) 5 years ago

That was a very weird link to a way to buy ''The Communist Manifesto'' .. which is a tiny but very famous fraction of Karl Marx' oeuvre. It was written under time constraints, and was a Pamphlet For Propaganda purposes really. The real meat of what Marx wrote and why he is considered a key economic and social philosopher is to be found in ''Das Kapital'' / ''Capital''.This is the reason - that he was, is and will be for a very long time to come .. read, respected & revered. I was going to do a much longer reply than I've time for now but please consider the following - if and when you have time ...

Workers of The World - Unite .. You Have Nothing To Lose But Your Chains ...

OR maybe, dysleksix of the world untie, you've nothing to use but your drains ..

EDIT: Also pls consider ... https://berniesanders.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/Wall-St-Letter-1.pdf

dum spiro, spero ...

[-] 0 points by beautifulworld (23395) 5 years ago

Marx's ideas have never been implemented. No society has ever fully followed Karl Marx's philosophy. Canada's healthcare is not a mess. We have the infrastructure in Medicare to lower the age to zero and increase the size of the program. We need single payer, not for profit, universal healthcare on a national level. We do not need fragmented plans all over the place anymore. That clearly does not work.

[-] 1 points by fionachuckles (-375) from Fairview, NJ 5 years ago

I am from Canada and do support national health care. However, be aware, it isn't as rosy as it seems. Especially in certain provinces. Waiting periods can be extremely long. I waited 2 years and a half for a knee surgery, and lived in pain while waiting. It's free, but you have to wait for a very long time. Anything life threatening is fast however. The other thing is we don't have the latest cutting edge drugs for things like cancer because they are still too expensive until they become common place. I know some people who had to go to the states to get cancer cutting edge treatments to save their lives.

I prefer national health care, but let's just be honest about all the advantages and disadvantages that come with it. Nothing is perfect.

Being from Canada, I would say the health care system is more a mess than not a mess. Being from the state, it's free, but the other side is that employees become lazier, harder to fire, etc... There are some advantages to private systems. Competition between hospitals being one of them.

[-] 1 points by beautifulworld (23395) 5 years ago

Oh, come on. Our healthcare in America is in a mess. Of course, nothing is perfect including in Canada, but there is no comparison to America's healthcare that leaves out 29 million people completely (the population of Canada) and is so inexpensive for the millions of others that they can barely afford to use it.

[-] 2 points by fionachuckles (-375) from Fairview, NJ 5 years ago

Oh, I agree completely. I wasn't comparing the two. I'm just saying Canada's healthcare, especially in certain provinces (it's not run the same in every province) is also quite the mess. However, I would not trade it for the system in US. Definitely, the system in US makes little sense and is much worse.

Gee, I personally don't like much at all from US to be honest. Just crossing south of the border scares me a bit. I don't understand the mentality. Religious freaks, gun lovers, capitalist right wingers, etc... Totally foreign to my semi-socialist and calm upbringing in Canada. Canadians are soft, Americans are a bit rough let's say.

[-] 1 points by fionachuckles (-375) from Fairview, NJ 5 years ago

The best system I experienced was in Singapore. Private, but lots of competition bring the price down. Fast efficient service you'd expect in a privatized system, but also cheap enough that everyone can buy health care. Best of both worlds really.

[-] 2 points by turbocharger (1756) 5 years ago

I have a friend that has lived in Singapore as well, said the same thing, the healthcare was incredible.

Competition works wonders. Government granting favors and over-regulating the competition is the worst case scenario.

[-] 2 points by fionachuckles (-375) from Fairview, NJ 5 years ago

Exactly. I don't think US should copy the Canadian model. They should look at what works and doesn't work around the world and create a new model.

[-] 1 points by windyacres (1197) 5 years ago

Was it regulated to insure safety? As a former business owner, cutting costs is an everyday frame of mind. I especially worry about things like healthcare, water, and food.

[-] 2 points by fionachuckles (-375) from Fairview, NJ 5 years ago

Yes, Singapore is extremely regulated. Not only the hospital, but everything else. They are a bit too tight in my opinion. Obsessed with cleanliness (gum is illegal in the country for example).

[-] 1 points by turbocharger (1756) 5 years ago

Sure, you want to cut costs. But you also don't want to screw over your customers, or you are history.

Unless you live in a government funded oligarchy like healthcare.

[-] 0 points by beautifulworld (23395) 5 years ago

I thought you had lived in Bali. Gee, you get around.

[-] 0 points by fionachuckles (-375) from Fairview, NJ 5 years ago

Never lived in Bali, I think shadz made that one up. He also says my name is Jean, and other stuff. These conspiracy theorists and their 'research'. You must take them lightly. Very lightly indeed.

But yes, I do get around. Because of the job. Worked in 15 different countries.

[-] 0 points by beautifulworld (23395) 5 years ago

Nope. I remember you saying you lived in Bali back in the early days of Occupy. We used to talk about Apple products, remember? I'm talking about when you used the Thrasymaque moniker. Of course, I have no way of knowing if you are that very same person. No matter.

[-] 0 points by fionachuckles (-375) from Fairview, NJ 5 years ago

No, I am not that person. As I recall, Thrasymaque did not stay long on the forum. He was a core member for the occupy organizing team. I think I met him in one occupy reunion, but was never sure if it was him. After the cops destroyed the encampments, we didn't see him much.

I remember zendog saying jart was also thrasymaque. I never thought that to be true, but am not sure either. Some people say jart was doing performance art online, so it could be. I always thought it was this guy named mark from occupy philly.

In any case, we agree the health care system in US is horrid and needs fixing. I hope Bernie Sanders can get elected and do some changes.

[-] 0 points by turbocharger (1756) 5 years ago

It's been implemented in different scenarios all over. Think about it.

How exactly would a Marx economy function? How are you going to run a community? No ideas, just the nuts and bolts. Who is collecting the profits from labor, and where is it all going, how is it distributed, etc.

I don't think we've ever had the chance to implement socialized medicine at the local level. The Feds won't allow it, and the people have no desire to organize and try to do it.

[-] 0 points by fionachuckles (-375) from Fairview, NJ 5 years ago

It's easy to be anti-capitalist, or anti-anything, what is harder is proposing a system to replace it.

What would you replace capitalism with? Communism? Something else? Can you describe in detail how it would work?

[-] 3 points by ImNotMe (1488) 5 years ago

We know how anti-OWS and this very forum you are tho', don't we?!!! Will you tell us again why, you are so concerned about this Somehow Still Standing forum?!! OR - why any of us here should trust anything that you ever say?! Re.your disingenuous questions: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30pdyzWOxnE

ad iudicium ...

[-] -2 points by fionachuckles (-375) from Fairview, NJ 5 years ago

I don't express what I feel at that link, I simply express what is reality. The fact that OWS is dead has nothing to do with my political leanings, my political wants, etc... It's just a fact. A fact agreed on by OWS founders themselves. Check the links to other occupy forums. All dead. Look in the streets, no one marching, no more camps. Even this forum has only a few users who seldom post now, and when they do it's not about occupy, it's about Bernie Sanders.

[-] 2 points by beautifulworld (23395) 5 years ago

I just read several comments by you about how OWS is dead. So please find another place to post. There is no reason for you to post here. This is the OWS forum, closed, open, or otherwise.

And, please take your obsession with conspiracy theories with you. It's a bore.

[-] -2 points by fionachuckles (-375) from Fairview, NJ 5 years ago

Yes, I do think OWS is dead. Don't you agree?

I have been posting here on how we could help revive it, at least the internet forum. By open it up.

I don't want OWS dead, it's just that this is the current reality.

Just ignore my comments if they bore you. I mostly ignore yours, and a few other users I find boring.

[-] -3 points by fionachuckles (-375) from Fairview, NJ 5 years ago

I'm concerned about the forum being closed, this is what I posted about. I think the signup page should be opened so the forum can gain more users and become active again.

[-] 3 points by beautifulworld (23395) 5 years ago

No. You are not concerned about this forum. You keep repeating how OWS is dead. Go away. Your only intention is to shit disturb and troll.

[-] -2 points by fionachuckles (-375) from Fairview, NJ 5 years ago

I guess you are one of them. One of those, like shadz, turbocharger, and so many other Alex Jones fans here, who don't believe planes crashed on 9/11. A person who believes the victims that died were fake people. Non-existants. A great complex plot to go to war (ironic, since US can go to war when it wants without having the need for an excuse).

[-] 3 points by beautifulworld (23395) 5 years ago

Still at National Bank Financial? What you don't like about OWS is that it highlights how banking and war are connected. Scares people like you. Bernie Sanders scares people like you. That's why you're back, because Sanders is reinvigorating the Occupy platform and that's particularly why you are busy defending the establishment story of 9/11.

[-] -1 points by fionachuckles (-375) from Fairview, NJ 5 years ago

I agree banking and wars are connected. Historically, wars have been about land and money. Oil is one of the main drivers in US wars. It's pretty obvious banking and wars are connected, I think everyone knows that no?

Should I call you captain obvious?

I like Sanders. I don't think he is reinvigorating the Occupy platform. Occupy is over ,and that's fine, we have new things now like Sanders. Time to stop living in the past. He has his own platform and I like it. I hope US get get social health care one day, although I admit I am very doubtful.

[-] -3 points by fionachuckles (-375) from Fairview, NJ 5 years ago

Yes, OWS is dead, which is why I would like to open this forum again so it relives once more, at least on the internet.

I don't understand why you fight so hard against the idea of wanting to increase the activity on this forum.

[-] 2 points by ImNotMe (1488) 5 years ago

You are clueless, cynical and in denial about the effects OWS has had in The U$A and nothing I say, or post, or link to will disabuse you of your deep disdain for The 99%, OWS & those of us here who refuse to let this place die and vanish into history ... just like you deeply wish it to do!

honi soit qui mal y pense...

[-] -3 points by fionachuckles (-375) from Fairview, NJ 5 years ago

I agree OWS has had a huge impact. Absolutely huge. Not sure where you get the idea I disagree with that. It's an obvious fact.

[-] 3 points by ImNotMe (1488) 5 years ago

Alas "The phrase ’99 percent’ now permeates our culture, helping keep attention focused on this glaring aspect of economic disparity, which President Obama has called ‘the defining issue of our time.’' from ..

minima maxima sunt ...

[-] -2 points by fionachuckles (-375) from Fairview, NJ 5 years ago

Sure, agreed. Not sure why you are playing captain obvious.

[-] 3 points by ImNotMe (1488) 5 years ago

It's only ''obvious'' when it's pointed out to you but you won't now nor ever do, raise such matters tho'!

temet nosce ...

[-] -2 points by fionachuckles (-375) from Fairview, NJ 5 years ago

I think everyone here knows that the phrase <the 99%> has had profound effect in America. Occupy brought many socialist ideas to the people's imagination.

There's just no excuse for playing Captain Obvious. You really should spend your time on more worthwhile postings.

[-] 3 points by ImNotMe (1488) 5 years ago

It's much bigger than that tho' - isn't it? But I'm NOT surprised that you don't get it OR want to get it, because IF you did - you would not be looking to try to bicker with me.. but would have tried to read:

ad iudicium ...

[-] 3 points by ImNotMe (1488) 5 years ago

Here's a "Democratic Irony" for you to ponder about, if you choose to:

Now f*ck off TrashyManque' & go bleat for attention Somewhere Else!!! I trust NOthing you say!!

IF you were genuinely curious - you'd have read my other replies to turbo here & try to then ask intelligent questions accordingly but strangely your ''High End Intellect'', couldn't cope with that!

If u really wish to learn something, try this .. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51FbT-AWZ-M

temet nosce ...

[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 5 years ago

Note sent in reply to Elizabeth Warren's request for support on action to get the process going on a Supreme Court Nomination:

I think it is actually - MUCH MORE IMPORTANT - that you come out in support of Bernie Sanders and His call for a political revolution - to get not only Bernie into office but support for Bernie's campaign into all other offices as well.

Face it - the GOP is NOT gonna pass a Supreme Court Nomination that would be in favor of the people! PERIOD !!!

So the only way the people will see a good result - is - with the success of Bernie's campaign in all levels of government - and an appointee being forwarded in Bernie's 1st term.