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Forum Post: In Defence Of The 'Broad Church Of Socialism' Against The Ignorant, Prejudiced And Plain Mean Spirited !!!

Posted 2 years ago on Nov. 11, 2011, 12:28 a.m. EST by shadz66 (17666)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

Like many millions of people throughout the world - I subscribe to Socialist Precepts and Principles because I realise and accept that Socialism has an ethical basis and dimension, above and beyond the ''dog eat dog" and the ''devil take the hindmost" attitudes of crude laissez faire capitalism.

Indeed Modern High-Finance Crapitalism (cf Corporate Banksterism / 'Hoover-Up Kaputalism' ) is a 'busted flush' and any honest person in possession of the most rudimentary ethical compass can clearly see that.

Please do NOT confuse and conflate Socialism with 'State Capitalism' or 'Totalitarian Stalinism' (as is the wont of avowed and abject 'anti-socialists' {ahem!}) and do try to understand why very many 'economists and social & political commentators' with anything pertinent to say about our really outrageous current predicament of a 'Global Debtocracy' ( http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/debtocracy/ ) are increasingly referring to Karl Marx ( http://www.marxists.org/ ) for analysis if not solutions.

Socialism is a philosophy, world view, school of thought and morality and it is a very 'broad church', from Social Democrats, Fabians, Christian Socialist (inspired by that Proto-Socialist, 'Jesus Christ'!) through Dialectical Materialists, Internationalists and Libertarian Anarcho-Syndicalists - to Revolutionary Maoists advocating armed resistance and violent proletarian revolution.

Ignorant and prejudiced opinions are no place for anyone to objectively assess Socialism, so step back from The Corporate MSM (ABCNNBCBS / FUX SNEWzzz etc.) induced apoplexy and prejudices and look to make your own mind up. Thus, further to the links above, I also append the following ['Right Click' for open in 'Different Tab / Page' option] :

a) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism - for Some Fair Facts,

b) http://www.internationalgramscisociety.org/ - as Theory Matters,

c) http://lucyparsons.org/biography-iww.php - for a True US 99% Heroine,

d) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOP2V_np2c0 - for An Animated Analysis,

e) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satyagraha - as Re. 'OWS', Gandhian Ideas Matter Too.

Recently a poster (jpaul05), on another thread on this subject wrote : "Socialism is the belief that Production should be Democratically controlled ; NOT in a hierarchical sense but in a decentralized, lateral sense. This way the dominant value guiding society is not maximization of profit, but a plurality of values aimed toward human need.", which I thought was very well put.

In conclusion, either we meekly accept The Usurpation and 'mutation under duress' of our Democracies into 'demoCRAZY deMOCKERYcy' & de facto Fascism ... or we reclaim our Dignity, Liberty, Prosperity and indeed Sanity, as The Only 'Class War' is the one that has been waged by a Parasitic 0.01% (The 1% of the 1%), using the 1% against The 99% Working Class ... because if we need to work to pay our bills .. that IS quite self-evidently what we are, ipso facto !!!

Please also consider :

Finally, some words from Albert Einstein from over 60 years ago :

iVIVA LOS INDIGNADOS Y VIVA LOS 99%!

per ardua ad astra ...

105 Comments

105 Comments


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[-] 4 points by bullfrogma (448) 3 weeks ago

"The achievement of socialism requires the solution of some extremely difficult socio-political problems: how is it possible, in view of the far-reaching centralization of political and economic power, to prevent bureaucracy from becoming all-powerful and overweening? How can the rights of the individual be protected and therewith a democratic counterweight to the power of bureaucracy be assured?"

What's wrong with public ownership of means of production while at the same time having our constitutional republic type of government? What if there was regulation into that public ownership from the constitutional level? Could this allow our business models to be modular, retaining private ownership of artistic vision while providing public ownership of economic value/impact? It seems like there would be no monopoly to pervert politics.

People still get paid for how much of and the kind of work they put in, right?

[-] 2 points by shadz66 (17666) 2 weeks ago

“A Threat to American Democracy”, by Sen. Bernie Sanders (I Vt.) :

''The top 25 hedge fund managers made last year over $24 billion. This is enough to pay the salaries of more than 425,000 public schoolteachers.''

Thus re. ''What's wrong with public ownership of means of production while at the same time having our constitutional republic type of government? What if there was regulation into that public ownership from the constitutional level?'' Nothing wrong with your thinking and this is where Democracy would lead if it were allowed to & not usurped by The Corporations & 0.01% Parasites. Imo, the ONLY True Capital is 'human capital'. Crapitalism is now antithetical to the sustainable future of the species. Thanx for your thoughtful and thought provoking comment & I commend the link to you.

e tenebris, lux ...

[-] 4 points by shadz66 (17666) 1 month ago

''Socialism’s Critics Look at Venezuela and Say, ‘We Told You So’. But They Are Wrong'', by Owen Jones :

vox populi vox dei ...

[-] 4 points by beautifulworld (20413) 1 month ago

"Before Hugo Chavez was elected President in 1998, Venezuela was ruled by various neo-liberal administrations. In 1975, 15 per cent of Venezuelans lived in poverty; two decades later, it had surged to 45 per cent."

"The traditional bastion of neo-liberal dogma, the World Bank, reveals that, while Venezuela's gross national per capita income languished below the continent's average before Chavez came to power, it is now $13,120, higher than Brazil or Argentina, and against an average of $8,981. Despite recent economic troubles, the UN revealed that Venezuela enjoyed the region's biggest drop in poverty in 2012."

Often, unfortunately, what happens is, capitalism gets a pass for it's shortcomings, ie. heads turn away at the sight of 45% poverty (and the suffering that goes along with it) in Venezuela, while socialism is criticized for it's shortcomings which rightly it should be when they exist. So, let's be fair, when capitalism makes a mess of things let's shine a light on it because in terms of economics it is deleterious to most people on the globe.

[-] 5 points by shadz66 (17666) 1 month ago

''The Washington orchestrated coup in Ukraine has kept Venezuela out of the headlines.

''A confrontation with nuclear armed Russia is more dangerous than with Venezuela. But the violence that Washington has unleashed on Venezuela almost simultaneously with Ukraine is testimony to Washington’s stark criminality.

''South America has always consisted of a tiny Spanish elite with all the money and power ruling over large majority populations of indigenous peoples who have not had political representation. In Venezuela, Chavez broke this pattern. An indigenous president was elected who represented the people and worked in their behalf instead of looting the country. Chavez became a role model, and indigenous presidents were elected in Ecuador and Bolivia.

''Chavez was hated by Washington and demonized by American presstitutes. When Chavez died of cancer, Washington celebrated.'' from :

Crapitalism only gets a pass because of the Corporate Controlled MSM Mind Management Machine !!

respice, adspice, prospice ...

[-] 4 points by beautifulworld (20413) 3 weeks ago

"If Washington reconquers Venezuela and Ecuador, Bolivia will be next. Then Brazil. Washington has its sights on Brazil, because the country is a member of the BRICS (Brazil, Russia, India, China, South Africa), and Washington intends to destroy this organization before the countries can establish a trading bloc that does not use the US dollar." from the Roberts piece.

The American dominance of the economic capitalist system around the world is simply out of control.

[-] 4 points by shadz66 (17666) 3 weeks ago

''Major media outlets have already reported that Venezuela’s poor have not joined the right-wing opposition protests, but that is an understatement: it’s not just the poor who are abstaining – in Caracas, it’s almost everyone outside of a few rich areas like Altamira, where small groups of protesters engage in nightly battles with security forces, throwing rocks and firebombs and running from tear gas.

''Walking from the working-class neighborhood of Sabana Grande to the city center, there was no sign that Venezuela is in the grip of a “crisis” that requires intervention from the Organization of American States (OAS), no matter what John Kerry tells you.'' from :

There is so much more to events than meets the 'eYe' ... mainly because what does get told, only gets told by The Corporate MSM. For example, I wonder if Venezuela would be going through ructions - IF it did not have possibly the largest Oil Reserves in the world ?!!! Neoliberal Banksterism has captured The USA !! Now The U$A is its Trojan Horse right across this 'bw' ... our fragile, shared and only hommme !

veritas vos liberabit ...

[-] 4 points by beautifulworld (20413) 3 weeks ago

Great point re: the oil reserves. Certainly there are other parts of the world in flux that the U.S. couldn't give a damn about.

[-] 5 points by shadz66 (17666) 3 weeks ago

Time to look - ''Behind The Mainstream Media Headlines'' :

... ''What Is Really Going On In Venezuela'' (Video) ...

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article37999.htm

fiat lux ...

[-] 3 points by beautifulworld (20413) 3 weeks ago

"Private media is promoting a distorted view.....to dirty the image of the government."

Why is Venezuela under attack? It has the largest oil reserves in the world which have been used to benefit the people. Anti-democratic movements to attack the government are seeking to change this.

I highly recommend the last minute and a half of this video. That is when it explains everything, starting around 6:00 minutes in.

[-] 6 points by shadz66 (17666) 3 weeks ago

'Oil is the biggest but not the only reason & 'Never mind that the Maduro government won municipal elections by a wide margin through an electoral process that former U.S. president Jimmy Carter has described as among the fairest and most open in the world. Never mind that the right-led Venezuelan opposition has undertaken a large number of violent and criminal actions that no functioning democratic government could ignore. Or that the “democratic opposition’s” leaders, including Caprilles and the extreme rightist Leopoldo Lopez (a U.S.-educated plutocrat from “one of the historically richest families in Venezuela”) have a long history of profoundly anti-democratic activity, including participation in a short-lived and U.S.-support business and military coup against Chavez in April of 2002. Despite all this and more, “the Obama government continues to fund this opposition even more openly than did the Bush regime.”

''Would Obama be prevented from pursuing regime change in Venezuela by some sort of attachment to the principle of “national sovereignty,” which he invokes in warning Russia to keep out of Ukraine? Please. Let’s not be naïve. Beyond its aforementioned actions in Latin America, the Obama administration has expanded the number of “sovereign” states where U.S. Special Forces are deployed from 60 at the end of the George W. Bush years to 134 (nearly 70 percent of the world’s nations) today.'' from :

fiat justitia ...

[-] 3 points by beautifulworld (20413) 1 week ago

From the compelling "Treating People Like Garbage":

"Through it all, Empire officials have played the innocent. They blame the anger, hatred, and animosity that people all over the world have for the United States on America’s freedom and values and financial success. The conceit and arrogance that afflicts Empire officials blinds them to the truth — that the reason people hate America is because they don’t like being treated like garbage by arrogant, pompous, hypocritical, self-righteous, duplicitous, imperialist political and bureaucratic hacks."

And from the Street article:

"The leader of Latin America’s challenge to Washington’s hemispheric power and to the related scourge of U.S.-imposed neoliberalism, Venezuela has undertaken significant experiments not only in attacking poverty by redistributing its considerable petroleum-based wealth downwards but also in participatory citizens’ and workers’ democracy."

These two pieces segue with the interests of the American people because just yesterday our Supreme Court decided our Constitution is a farce and that the government does not need to promote the general welfare of the people by ruling that political donations do not need to be limited at all.

So, therefore, the American people join the world in being treated like garbage by their own government. Sad to say, but true.

[-] 5 points by shadz66 (17666) 1 week ago

''Treating People Like Garbage'' by JH [ http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article38029.htm ] was indeed very compelling, as were your excerpts and points. Thanx bw and in compliment re. Venezuela and with the USG's ''faux twitter clone'' in Cuba, in mind too, I append :

fiat lux et fiat pax ...

[-] 6 points by beautifulworld (20413) 1 week ago

"The claims that Venezuela has a deficient democracy and that current protests represent mainstream sentiment are belied by the facts. The antigovernment protests are being carried out by people in the wealthier segments of society who seek to reverse the gains of the democratic process that have benefited the vast majority of the people."

The crux of the matter is that the wealthy don't want to share, not anywhere on this good earth. Pathetic.

"Since 1998, the movement founded by Hugo Chávez has won more than a dozen presidential, parliamentary and local elections through an electoral process that former American President Jimmy Carter has called “the best in the world.”"

True democracy is a threat to the 1%, hence the Supreme Court's decision to remove limits on political contributions here in the U.S.. A government controlled by the wealthy is what the wealthy want and they get pretty angry when people like Chavez step in and actually make it work for the 99%.

Where do you stand President Obama? Are you going to continue to support the minority, wealthy Venezuelans who want to squash democracy because it is working for the masses and not for their narrow interests? Or are you going to actually do the right thing and stand up for real democracy that works? Would you consider doing that here in the U.S. as well?

[-] 5 points by shadz66 (17666) 3 days ago

''True democracy is a threat to the 1%, hence the Supreme Court's decision to remove limits on political contributions here in the U.S.. A government controlled by the wealthy is what the wealthy want and they get pretty angry when people like Chavez step in and actually make it work for the 99%.'' BAM !!! To see Obummer as anything other than a product of this Oligarchical System is self-deluding !! Democracy is what is needed - on every level ! Also fyi :

per aspera ad astra ...

[-] -3 points by shooz (26680) 3 days ago

"Cause everybody knows the UK is so fair to all.

http://tompride.wordpress.com/2014/03/13/uk-pay-rises-nurses-1-mps-11-bankers-35/

Gosh, it must really hurt, not to have an Obama to blame it on.

[-] 3 points by shadz66 (17666) 2 days ago

The sad truths of Neoliberalism afflict us the world over [as per your link] ... but just who-TF said or thought that that ''the UK is so fair to all'' ?!!! Or are u pissed off - yet again that I have the temerity to comment on matters pertaining to The U$A ?!! So, just how big a gormless gimp are you btw - and .. ''gosh, it must hurt'' when anyone criticises your hallowed POTUS, right ?! Now try to consider ...

Your deep seated affiliation for your present POTUS is duly noted - yet again, as is your real resentment at my posting on this forum but ho hum & just keep playing dumb and shilling for tweedletwerp and The Democraps & don't forget to put ''libe(R)topian'' in any reply because that way you can keep pretending that The Corporate Captured & Controlled, Democraps have nothing to do with the fkt up state of affairs !

I have deep HATE for the likes of Tony 'War Criminal' BLiar and deep distrust & disdain for much of what constitutes 'The Labour Party' these days & we just lost Tony Benn [RiP] but you, you fkn gimp - can't see past your li'l Nationalistic Nose or realise The International Nature of The 99% Struggle - because .. you are basically a parochial, conservative who doesn't want to see too much wrong & are more inclined to timidly tinker at the margins, rather than go to the fundamentals of the matters that impact on us all !!

One World ; One 99% ; One Struggle .... geddit ? If not, then just put your leather mask back on, zip yourself back up into your body suit and stay scrunched up in your box 'til someone yanks your chain !!!

temet nosce ...

[-] 3 points by flip (4983) 1 week ago

nice job

[-] 3 points by Ache4Change (2999) 4 months ago

'When we think of Karl Marx, we think of socialism, communism, revolution, and all things anathema to capitalism. Marxism is discredited and Marx can't solve the problems of the postmodern world, but perhaps reacquainting ourselves with his ideas can help us understand how we got into this dire predicament – and how to dig ourselves out.' from - http://www.nationofchange.org/what-did-marx-know-and-when-did-he-know-it-capitalism-s-dirty-little-secret-1384788175 I enjoyed your old post, thread and links. Never Give Up Explaining And Exposing! Occupy The Agenda! Solidarity :)

[-] 5 points by shadz66 (17666) 4 months ago

''The prime movers of corporate capitalism – robber barons that go by such high-sounding names as venture capitalists, media moguls, investment bankers, fund managers – turned the anti-Communist hysteria of the Cold War into a crusade against "socialism" and "big government", promote a greed-is-good ideology, and label everything that they don't like as "class warfare".

''Surprisingly, Marx came close to anticipating industrial capitalism's Achilles' heel – namely environmental depredation, carbon emissions, and global warming :

''The bourgeoisie cannot exist without constantly revolutionizing the instruments of production, and thereby the relations of production, and with them the whole relations of society. Conservation of the old modes of production in unaltered form, was, on the contrary, the first condition of existence for all earlier industrial classes. Constant revolutionizing of production, uninterrupted disturbance of all social conditions, everlasting uncertainty and agitation…. All that is solid melts into air, all that is holy is profaned, and man is at last compelled to face with sober senses his real conditions of life, and his relations with his kind.'' Excerpted from your link and in compliment, please further consider ....

Thanx for your brilliant excerpt and I loved your link which I wholeheartedly recommend to all readers.

We Must Never Give Up !!! Occupy Wall Street !! Solidarity !

per ardua ad astra ...

[-] 3 points by Ache4Change (2999) 4 months ago

'Capitalism has stopped "delivering the goods" for quite a while now, especially in its older bases (Europe, North America and Japan). Real wage stagnation, deepening wealth and income inequalities, unsustainable debt levels and export of jobs have been prevailing trends in those areas. The global crisis since 2007 only accelerated those trends. In response, more has happened than Keynesianism returning to challenge neoliberalism and critiques returning to challenge uncritical celebrations of capitalism. Capitalism's development has raised a basic question again: What alternative economic system might be necessary and preferable for societies determined to do better than capitalism? That old mole, socialism, has thus returned for interrogation about its past to draw the lessons about its present and future.'

'Imagine democratic enterprises interacting with democratic residential communities - economic and political democracies reinforcing one another and making one another real, not merely formal. Jointly they would co-determine how society functions and changes. That vision and goal animates a socialism for the 21st century. It builds upon, while also critically departing from, traditional socialism's contradictory history. It embodies the aspirations of all those who contemplate the present in the spirit of knowing that we can do better than capitalism.'

The above from the excellent 'truth-out' link and thank you for a great series of very appropriate links. In support, please see - http://www.nationofchange.org/unequal-beyond-edge-humanness-1385738469 - Never Give Up Explaining The Alternatives! Occupy The Agenda! Solidarity.

[-] 4 points by shadz66 (17666) 4 months ago

''Chicago is now the second major city - after Detroit - to become a depository for Koch Industries petroleum coke, the byproduct of refining heavy tar sands oil. It's being dumped along the river on the city's low-income southeast side. A Koch Industries spokesperson shrugged it off as business as usual. Charles Koch had recently proclaimed, "I want my legacy to be...a better way of life for...all Americans."

''The Koch-funded Cato Institute contends: "SNAP helps breed dependency and undermines the work ethic."----The Heritage Foundation, also Koch-funded, agrees: "Helping the poor should mean promoting individual freedom through self-reliance.."----But what if there are no jobs? No problem, says Eric Cantor (R-Virginia), "you could go and participate in community service activities or a workfare program."

''Nearly half of SNAP recipients are children. Over 60 percent of SNAP families with children have a working adult who doesn't make enough to pay all the bills.''

I excerpt the above from your 'NoC' link by Paul Buchheit. Things can not go on as they are. We need new ways of thinking to address the problems and opportunities that our new technologically advanced but philosophically and ethically backward societies present. With this in mind, I append :

multum in parvo ...

[-] 4 points by Ache4Change (2999) 4 months ago

'Detroit’s bankruptcy filing marks a grim milestone in the decline of what was once the country’s fourth-largest city, known as the Motor City, the birthplace of the middle class.' Taken from this important video - http://www.nationofchange.org/detroit-bankruptcy-wall-street-lost-revenues-forced-decline-city-pensioners-pay-costs-1386174640 .

Thank you very much for your great link and great video. LOTS of food for thought there and 'much in a little' indeed :) Everyone needs to watch this. Never Give Up Sharing The Information! Occupy Critical Mass! Solidarity & again - http://www.nationofchange.org/open-letter-35-1386087186 - 'An Open Letter To The 3.5%'.

[-] 4 points by shadz66 (17666) 4 months ago

“Throughout history, when people have fought against tyranny and oppression, they didn’t have one perfect Utopian model outcome agreed upon beforehand. They just knew that the invading and old systems were detrimental to their well-being and had to go. We are now in that position.”

Thanx for your excellent link [ http://www.nationofchange.org/open-letter-35-1386087186 ] - Everyone Should See This !!!

fiat lux ...

[-] 3 points by Ache4Change (2999) 4 months ago

'Acronym TV' is doing good work and here's another episode - http://www.nationofchange.org/drone-takes-out-julian-assange-1386516520 Never, Ever Give Up Occupying The Wider Issues! Solidarity.

[-] 3 points by shadz66 (17666) 4 months ago

I've been copying that video link around on the forum and in e-mails. Thanx for that and I append - favour for a favour, the following :

10.10m et quid pro quo ...

[-] 4 points by Ache4Change (2999) 3 months ago

'2013 Resistance Report - Year In Review' - http://www.nationofchange.org/2013-resistance-report-year-review-1388508474 - by 'Acronym TV's, Dennis Trainor & I do hope people watch your video too. Happy New Year :) Never Give Up! Occupy 2014! Solidarity.

[-] 2 points by shadz66 (17666) 3 months ago

''Imagine : If Mayor de Blasio Really Were a Socialist'', by Cliff Connor and Michael Steven Smith :

''Socialism has a tradition in America. Our most famous thinker, Albert Einstein, was a socialist. Martin Luther King said, "If we are going to achieve real equality, the United States will have to adopt a modified form of socialism." Mayor De Blasio, as you take office, we remind you of the song of another socialist, John Lennon, who wrote in "Imagine" that, ''You may say I'm a dreamer / But I'm not the only one / I hope someday you'll join us / And the world will live as one''.

''Mr. Mayor, this expresses the desire of humanity since the days of the prophets. The majority of the people who elected you would be for it. Do you dare ?''

dum spiro, spero ...

[-] 4 points by Ache4Change (2999) 3 months ago

NY's Mayor De Blasio is going to have be closely watched I think, in reply to your excellent link. And -

'There is no question but that New York’s new mayor, Bill De Blasio, owes his landslide victory in the November election to the Occupy Movement.'

'It was Occupy Wall Street’s minions, hemmed in by thug-like NYPD officers armed with sidearms, clubs and pepper spray cans, who in 2011 abruptly changed the national conversation about capitalism, introducing the concept of “We are the 99%,” and focusing attention on the enormous enrichment of the top 1% of Americans at the expense of the other 99% over the past several decades, as a direct result of public policies on taxation and bank deregulation.' From - http://www.nationofchange.org/new-york-s-new-mayor-de-blasio-really-lefty-or-just-another-progressive-poseur-1389105741

Never Give Up On The 99%! Occupy All Streets! Solidarity.

[-] 4 points by shadz66 (17666) 3 months ago

''It was Occupy Wall Street’s minions, hemmed in by thug-like NYPD officers armed with sidearms, clubs and pepper spray cans, who in 2011 abruptly changed the national conversation about capitalism, introducing the concept of “We are the 99%,” and focusing attention on the enormous enrichment of the top 1% of Americans at the expense of the other 99% over the past several decades, as a direct result of public policies on taxation and bank deregulation.'' Repeated because it it is worthwhile to do so and re. the thread - also consider :

multum in parvo ...

[-] 4 points by Ache4Change (2999) 3 months ago

Intricate and took time to absorb but thanks for that very important article and so in compliment, see: http://www.nationofchange.org/make-no-mistake-you-are-american-debt-slave-1389886420 I've copied this to you elsewhere but it is very pertinent here too. Never Give Up! Occupy The Issues! Solidarity.

[-] 5 points by shadz66 (17666) 2 months ago

''Eisenhower's Farewell Address to the Nation'' (January 17, 1961) :

"This conjunction of an immense military establishment and a large arms industry is new in the American experience. The total influence – economic, political, even spiritual – is felt in every city, every Statehouse, every office of the Federal government. We recognize the imperative need for this development. Yet we must not fail to comprehend its grave implications. Our toil, resources and livelihood are all involved; so is the very structure of our society." Also see :

fiat lux, fiat justitia, fiat pax ...

[-] 5 points by Ache4Change (2999) 2 months ago

Dr. Michael Hudson Rocks! Eisenhower really saw our current situation coming! And that 'truth-out' article is actually Very disturbing but sadly - VERY unsurprising too!

Now here's some better news - http://www.nationofchange.org/austerity-abundance-why-i-am-running-california-treasurer-1390404698 as I know that you like Ellen Brown. I'm also recommending this article to you - http://www.nationofchange.org/how-wall-street-won-war-and-what-happens-next-1390490287 .

Never Give Up The 99%! Occupy The Agenda! Solidarity.

[-] 3 points by shadz66 (17666) 2 months ago

Kshama Sawant speaking to Abby Martin on ''Breaking The Set'' - with Chris Hedges :

Solidarity 'A4C' & thanx for : https://thedaywefightback.org/ & see : http://15now.org/ .

per ardua ad astra ...

[-] 2 points by Ache4Change (2999) 2 months ago

Kshama Sawant is a star! The same can be said for Abby Martin I'd say having watched and explored your great links. In compliment - http://www.nationofchange.org/mobsters-wall-street-1392224146 and http://15now.org/ is an important site. Never Give Up The 99% Struggle! Occupy The Agenda! Solidarity.

[Removed]

[-] 3 points by shadz66 (17666) 2 months ago

“I Wear the Badge of Socialist With Honor” by Kshama Sawant :

''To all those prepared to resist the agenda of big business—in Seattle and nationwide—I appeal to you: get organized. Join with us in building a mass movement for economic and social justice, for democratic socialist change, whereby the resources of society can be harnessed, not for the greed of a small minority, but for the benefit of all people. Solidarity.''

Thanx the strong links which I have excerpted & addressed elsewhere. Solidarity.

prospice ...

[-] 5 points by Ache4Change (2999) 2 months ago

Kshama Sawant Is A Total Inspiration! See (though I think you already did) -

http://occupywallst.org/forum/occupy-response-sotu-president-obama/ and -

Many Struggles Do A Movement Make, so - https://thedaywefightback.org/

Never Ever Give Up Joining The Dots! Occupy ALL Streets! Solidarity amigo.

[-] 2 points by shadz66 (17666) 1 month ago

''Lessons from Kshama Sawant's Historic Victory'' :

''Sawant is an impressive speaker and a determined fighter, no doubt. But she is also an ordinary person who happened to attend a couple public forums in 2008 and was impressed with the Socialist Alternative speakers’ political clarity. Through discussions with Socialist Alternative, she decided to dedicate her life to fighting for a socialist world.

''Most ordinary people gravely underestimate our own potential to play a role in changing the world. We should follow Sawant’s shining example and commit ourselves to this cause for which there is no greater reward. Nothing in life is more meaningful than fighting alongside other working-class people to end inequality, oppression, and environmental devastation.''

veritas vos liberabit ...

[-] 4 points by Ache4Change (2999) 1 month ago

'Despite universal demonization of socialism by the corporate media and the political establishment, the Sawant and Moore campaigns demonstrated that “socialism” is no longer a dirty word. Multiple polls, including this Gallup poll, have found that a third of Americans react positively to the idea of “socialism” – a historic increase from decades ago and a 3% increase from 2010 to 2012.' from your excellent link and so to follow, see -

http://www.nationofchange.org/surrender-america-s-liberals-1393430213

http://www.nationofchange.org/robin-hood-tax-take-back-our-economy-1393344562

Never Give Up On The 99%! Occupy Wall Street - all day, all week! Solidarity.

[-] 1 points by WSmith (5271) from Cornelius, OR 3 months ago

"'There is no question but that New York’s new mayor, Bill De Blasio, owes his landslide victory in the November election to the Occupy Movement.'"

You are not saying that OWS & the "Occupy Movement" actively participated in the WISE, yet partisan (Dem) and election (Voting) activity, advocacy and participation in the Election of a Progressive Democratic Politician!? Are you?? Let's hear a Mighty Hallelujah!!

[-] 3 points by Ache4Change (2999) 3 months ago

Of course OWS had a part to play in the bigger scheme of things behind de Blasio's election win but there's little cause or need for any 'Mighty Hallelujah' because too many Democratic Politicians have enabled and cosseted 'Wall Street' - including Bill Clinton (NAFTA & repeal of Glass Steagall) & the current Potus (where do I start? TPP? http://www.nationofchange.org/tpp-v-democracy-1389716297 )

If you really think that de Blasio is somehow representative of the Democratic Party, then you're dead wrong. dB is closer to the Dem rank and file though and you should reflect on that very deeply indeed.

Never Give Up On Core OWS Issues! Occupy The Agenda!

[-] 1 points by WSmith (5271) from Cornelius, OR 3 months ago

And do you think that the negligent & ignorant sate of our democracy is not really Idiocracy?

[-] 5 points by Ache4Change (2999) 2 months ago

The 'negligence and ignorance' has been fostered and nurtured as a matter of policy. The MSM is totally corporate owned and The 99% are kept dumbed down and propagandised to act against their own best interests by The 1%. Also MattLHolck's point has a very real value here too.

The 'Idiocracy' extends to both of the political parties - both of whom have been co-opted by the same corporate interests. OWS is one of the bright sparks of a New 99% Resistance but it took decades to get into this situation so it will take at least a decade or two to get out of it.

Also see - http://www.nationofchange.org/if-mlk-were-alive-today-1390319650 & http://www.nationofchange.org/8-facts-about-american-inequality-1390315279 .

Never Give Up On Looking Forward! Occupy The Future. Solidarity.

[-] 2 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 months ago

the constitution out dated ?

[-] 3 points by leandroBR (24) from São José dos Campos, São Paulo 2 years ago

I know i am a bit away from the subject at this post, but since we are talking about socialism, i'd like to refer to a song known as "The internationale"(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dcXNXKtu8z4) Two phrases of the lyrics drive my attention. "Don't cling so hard for your possessions/ for you have nothing if you have no rights" and "For though they offer us concessions/ change will not come from above!" No matter what i think of, can't deny those two statements.

[-] 4 points by shadz66 (17666) 2 years ago

Obrigado 'leandro' and working link re. "The Internationale" = http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dcXNXKtu8z4 (your parentheses were too close ;-) adeus !!

[-] 3 points by leandroBR (24) from São José dos Campos, São Paulo 2 years ago

Oh, thanks for that... I was wondering why my links don't appear in blue... Have a nice day :-)

[-] 3 points by powertothepeople (1264) 2 years ago

Excellent post, thank you.

[-] 4 points by shadz66 (17666) 2 years ago

PttP : FYI, "Republican Socialists, Democratic Capitalists GOP Pols Exploit Anti-Wall Street Rage", by Ted Rall : http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article30227.htm . fiat justitia ...

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (33128) from Coon Rapids, MN 4 months ago

In compliment - TWEET

DKAtoday ‏@DKAtoday

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljaXy1t0I44

Gotta get this stuff constantly circulated.

True Democracy = Socialism

Socialism is NOT a four letter word


Socialism has rarely been properly used - as in the creation of a social safety net = Social Security Unemployment Insurance

Unfortunately the ideal Idea Concept Practice has been raped and abused by varying evil rulers/governments.

[-] 7 points by shadz66 (17666) 4 months ago

http://www.popularresistance.org/ & solidarity and thanx to you.

pax ...

[-] 4 points by Nevada1 (4020) 4 months ago

Hello shadz, Good website. Always figured the JPM Chase $13 billion deal was fake.

[-] 5 points by shadz66 (17666) 4 months ago

''JPMorgan’s Bait-and-switch : The Ballyhooed Settlement Is Just a Scam !'', by David Dayen :

''The first thing you need to know about JPMorgan Chase’s long-awaited $13 billion deal with the Justice Department — to settle a number of civil lawsuits related to the fraudulent sale of mortgage-backed securities — is that it’s not a $13 billion deal. $4 billion of this figure, over 30 percent, was announced almost a month ago as the conclusion of a lawsuit between JPMorgan and the Federal Housing Finance Agency.

''Attorney General Eric Holder, wanting to stand at a podium and give out a really big settlement number, simply folded the FHFA settlement into the Justice Department’s. Why news editors who have already reported on the FHFA settlement would let the Justice Department use it again in its headline figure is completely beyond me. They aren’t obligated to do the Justice Department’s P.R. for them. We don’t say the Miami Heat beat the San Antonio Spurs 200-98, but 100 of those points came from a previous game.

''So, let’s talk about this $9 billion settlement. Even that headline number doesn’t really reflect the actual penalty to JPMorgan Chase’s bottom line. Nearly half of the figure comes in the form of “mortgage relief,” which an independent monitor (and what’s so independent about a monitor chosen by the bank?) has four years to distribute. Any time you extend the time horizon of a penalty, you’re reducing its real value. And in this case, there’s not much value here to begin with.

''The bank only has to put $1.2 billion of the $4 billion into first-lien principal reductions for homeowners facing foreclosure. $300 million goes toward extinguishing second liens, like a home equity line of credit. Another $300 million is earmarked for principal forbearance, where the homeowner still owes the money but gets to skip a few immediate payments. $2 billion would go toward interest-rate reductions or refinancing or even writing new mortgages for moderate-income borrowers (that’s a penalty, writing mortgages that pay the bank interest?), and the balance toward anti-blight provisions like bulldozing homes or buying out properties where the bank has delayed foreclosure.

''Almost none of this represents a real penalty for the bank.''

~

So Nev1, you were right and ahead of the curve in your judgement. Four wee phrases to bear in mind : Moral Hazard ; Perverse Incentives ; Regulatory Capture ; Conflicts of Interest !!!! Solidarity to u & yrs.

multum in parvo ...

[-] 4 points by shadz66 (17666) 1 month ago

JPfknMorgan are just another bunch of favoured, protected, larcenous criminals, who are completely out of control and for further insights into Bankster Avarice, Duplicity And Manipulation, please do consider :

The ''Fed’s transcripts are, perhaps, the greatest propaganda coup of our time. They take advantage of the fact that people simply forget a lot of what happened during the crisis and, as a result, absolve the Fed of any accountability for what is likely the crime of the century. It’s an accomplishment that PR-pioneer Edward Bernays would have applauded. After all, it was Bernays who argued that the sheeple need to be constantly bamboozled to keep them in line. Here’s a clip from his magnum opus ''Propaganda'' :

  • “The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country.”

''The American people were fleeced in broad daylight by the same dissembling cutthroats the NYT is now trying to characterize as well-meaning bunglers who were just trying to save the country from another Great Depression.'' Thus also consider that The 'NYT' = 'Not Your Truth' !!!

verum ex absurdo ...

[-] 5 points by Nevada1 (4020) 1 month ago

Hey Shadz, The greater the crime, the greater the probability that the crims will get away with it.

A little hope regarding 9/11, as there is an effort to get WTC7 NYC investigation to happen.

[-] 5 points by shadz66 (17666) 1 month ago

Re. ''The Other 9/11'' and the start of The Neoliberal Nightmare we're all in - as well as a li'l more in keeping with this thread & your sage statement, try to consider :

Re. the subject matter to which you allude, I will just sort of side step that while still obliquely and implicitly referencing Edward Bernays, with this 'meme equation' and an amusing but relevant link :

respice, adspice, prospice ...

[-] 4 points by Nevada1 (4020) 1 month ago

Good links.

More on Crims getting away with murder--- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvay28lZiHU

[-] 4 points by shadz66 (17666) 1 month ago

That's a disturbing video which has parallels to things that happened to a slew of people after events in Dallas fifty years ago. Even if things 9/!! are like a splinter in the mind [ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnbMjAN7Bws ], nevertheless thanx Nev1. I found that as a result of watching your link - tho' I just try not to think about 9/!! too much or my brain aches and I feel sick but folk like you keep kicking my butt when I'm trying to put my head in the sand. Ho-hum, thanx and more pertinently to this thread [tho' of course - ''all things are connected''] - in solidarity with you and The 99%, I'll append and recommend :

fiat lux ...

[-] 4 points by johannus (59) from Newburgh, NY 1 month ago

Some people believe that Edward Bernays should share the title of "father of public relations" with Ivy Lee , who Rockefeller hired after the Ludlow Massacre. Much of what Bernays learned about "manufacturing consent" was from his uncle, Sigmond Freud. From there propaganda as an effective way of controlling the masses was embraced by the likes of Joe Goebells, Madison Ave and now we have the lobbyists who prostitute themselves to the highest bidder.

Here's a bit more of Bernay's magnum opus "Propaganda," from where you left off.

"...We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of. This is a logical result of the way in which our democratic society is organized.... In to every act of our daily lives, whether in the sphere of politics or business, in our social conduct or our ethical thinking, we are dominated by the relatively small number of persons...who understand the mental processes and social patterns of the masses as it is they who pull the wires which control the public mind."

We need more people to wake up to these facts, and that will not happen until they turn away from the corporate-owned MSM.

http://pr.wikia.com/wiki/Edward_Bernays

A little story: When I was a young man, my wife and I who were new to the town were invited to an annual cocktail party at Jim Lee's home. Although I knew who Ivy Lee was, I did not know that Jim was his son until later. And although I don't remember the circumstances that led up to us not exactly liking each other, I do remember that we weren't expected to bring the kiddies to this party. Anyway we were never invited back which was fine with me as I thought that bow-tie wearing old dude was an ass.

After doing some research, I went on to discover that Jim Lee as a young man lived in Berlin, working for his dad's PR firm who had a contract with IG Farbin, a huge chemical company that made the gas used to murder many Jews in the holocaust.

[-] 4 points by shadz66 (17666) 1 month ago

Bernie Sanders for POTUS ?!!!

''There is no question that the Democratic Party in general remains far too dependent on big-money interests, that it is not fighting vigorously for working-class families, and that there are some members of the Democratic Party whose views are not terribly different from some of the Republicans. That's absolutely the case.

''My experience and my political instinct tells me that a lot of the discussions about 2016 are minimizing the profound disgust that people are having now with the status quo - and their desperate for a message that addresses that disgust. If I run, I'm not going to be raising hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars. I think I have the capability of raising a lot of money and that's important, but that at the end of the day is not going to be what's most important. What's most important is this idea of a political revolution -- rallying the working families of this country around a vision that speaks to their needs. People need to understand that, if we are prepared to stand up to Wall Street and the big-money interests, we can create a nation that works for all Americans, and not just the handful of billionaires.''

spero meliora

~*~

Thanx for your anecdote re. The Lees (you were better off without such parties probably lol) and for your quotes and links re. Bernays and in compliment on this 'World Book Day' (6th March'14) :

pax et lux ...

[-] 4 points by johannus (59) from Newburgh, NY 1 month ago

Bernie Sanders is a rare breed, and should he decide to run for President, I would actively campaign for him.

As for Jim Lee, if he is still around (which would make him around 115-120 y.o.) , I would do my best to avoid him

[-] 3 points by shadz66 (17666) 1 month ago

''How a Brutal Strain of American Aristocrats Have Come to Rule America'', by Sara Robinson :

''America didn't used to be run like an old Southern slave plantation - but we're headed that way now. How did that happen ?'' This article appended fyi & no doubt Ivy Lee, his dad and his son would have approved lol & one party was enuf, imo but alas the same is true of current US Polytricks, ironically.

respice, adspice, prospice ...

[-] 2 points by flip (4983) 1 month ago

while i like much of what Bernie says and does and would vote for him - nobody is perfect! this is from Ashley Smith www.dissidentvoice.org November 15, 2006 First Published in Socialist Worker..........................

Despite his own claims, Sanders has not been an antiwar leader. Ever since he won election to the House, he has taken either equivocal positions on U.S. wars or outright supported them. His hawkish positions -- especially his decision to support Bill Clinton�s 1999 Kosovo War -- drove one of his key advisers, Jeremy Brecher, to resign from his staff. Brecher wrote in his resignation letter, �Is there a moral limit to the military violence you are willing to participate in or support?�

So outraged were peace activists over Sanders� support of the Kosovo War that they occupied his office in 1999. Sanders had them arrested. Under the Bush regime, Sanders� militarism has only grown worse. While he called for alternative approaches to the war on Afghanistan, he failed to join the sole Democrat, Barbara Lee, to vote against Congress� resolution that gave George Bush a blank check to launch war on any country he deemed connected to the September 11 attacks. For veteran Sanders watchers, this capitulation to the corporate Democrats and their apparatchiks is nothing new. He has made it one of his missions to agitate against voting for Ralph Nader, the Green Party and, in some cases, Vermont�s Progressive Party.

During the 2004 election, Sanders announced on Vermont Public Television, �Not only am I going to vote for John Kerry, I am going to run around this country and do everything I can to dissuade people from voting for Ralph Nader... I am going to do everything I can, while I have differences with John Kerry, to make sure that he is elected.�

then there is this thought -

[-] 2 points by johannus (59) from Newburgh, NY 1 month ago

Gee, you really know how to take the wind out of a person's sails! Hopefully Bernie has learned from his mistakes and will continue to be a proponent of the people's interests in so many ways.

Otherwise I'll have to head west to encourage Ms Sawant to run for President. Do you think she likes older dudes? Err...I'm getting sidetracked now.

[-] 4 points by flip (4983) 1 month ago

how about lizzy warren? Bernie is as good as we have right now - i like when he is on tv since he speaks for the 99% but.... he is still a dem and is not perfect - how is newburgh by the way? ha ha

[-] 5 points by johannus (59) from Newburgh, NY 1 month ago

You're right, "Bernie is as good as we have right now.." I can't help, but think back to a time when there were more politicians who were a whole lot better than the lot we have now. Maybe, though, that was not the case and I was just in an 'ignorance is bliss' slumber. Newburgh?...it's ok, but New Paltz is a much more progressive town as you probably know from your lunch stops at PJ's when you are on your way to do some VT skiing. No Crown family up there! Gotta go now.

[-] 3 points by DKAtoday (33128) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 month ago

I love the idea of Bernie Sanders running for President. So much so - that I sent Him this message: http://www.sanders.senate.gov/contact

Announce - Please - announce that you are running for President and make the announcement with a proposed/selected/accepted running mate - like Elizabeth Warren.

Go beyond the general announcement and state a detailed platform = OSTA ( one subject at a time Legislation ) - Money out of politics = repeal citizens united - Ending subsidies to fossil fuel and switching them to clean energy development/implementation along with refusing expansion of fossil fuel extraction - equalizing pay inequality = Women to be paid just as much as Men and a minimum living wage of 15.00 an hour tied to cost of living/inflation also placing a cap on executive pay ( perhaps making it tied to a percentage over the least paid employee of say like 20% - thereby combating inflation as well as inequality ). All of these issues and more - like prosecuting crime the same for all = wallstreet collusion is collusion, conspiracy is conspiracy, fraud is fraud = wallstreet does not require a different set of laws = The Law Is The Law. Fines to criminal business activities will be no less than the amount of damage or theft caused by that business.

Really - RUN FOR OFFICE - And Make It Real for the majority of the population.

[-] 3 points by DKAtoday (33128) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 month ago

BTW - TWEET

DKAtoday ‏@DKAtoday

Bernie Sanders 4 President = YAY https://occupywallst.org/forum/in-defence-of-the-broad-church-of-socialism-from-t/#comment-1025392 … This was My comment to Him - can you also send Him support for a real run?

[-] 4 points by DKAtoday (33128) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 month ago

Breaking News - a man is forcibly removed from Supreme Court Chambers for voicing protest about ................... http://www.theguardian.com/law/2014/feb/27/apparent-first-ever-video-of-us-supreme-court-proceedings-released

Hold it - STOP - are we really doing real news breaks? - what happened to the Bieber breaks?

[-] 3 points by DKAtoday (33128) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 month ago

Made 4 a good tweet as well -

DKAtoday ‏@DKAtoday

Breaking News - a man is forcibly removed from Supreme Court Chambers for voicing protest https://occupywallst.org/forum/in-defence-of-the-broad-church-of-socialism-from-t/#comment-1025518

[-] 4 points by shadz66 (17666) 1 month ago

Thanx and I'd appreciate your tweeting this (cross) link re. 'News We Don't Hear About Ukraine' :

veritas vos liberabit ...

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 1 month ago

i'm not sure if property is not addressed

we will see significant change in the control of our economy

[-] -1 points by DKAtoday (33128) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 month ago

Don't repeat your comment to me - send a comment to Bernie on what should be part of his platform - you knob.

[-] -1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 1 month ago

if he don't come he

let him fade with the others

[-] 3 points by JGriff99mph (465) 1 month ago

Hopefully he goes forward with this.

And if he loses in the primary- and chances are he would- and decides to say to hell with em and runs as an indie, then we will get another glimpse of who is interested in winning the short term vs fundamentally changing the country, or at least the political aspect of it.

Stay in the ranks and you are a god. Leave and you are a unicorn chaser. Democracy in America.....

[-] 4 points by shadz66 (17666) 1 month ago

Maybe 'demoCRAZY deMOCKERYcy' - would be more apt and thanx for your clearly well founded comment and in compliment fyi :

e tenebris, lux ...

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (33128) from Coon Rapids, MN 4 months ago

Nice - Thanks - & of course - TWEET

DKAtoday ‏@DKAtoday

Video: Davide Martello’s #StopKillingTour At The Lincoln Memorial http://bit.ly/1iv33tc via @PopResistance

[-] 2 points by invient (360) 2 years ago

Yes I think people need to get away from the connotation of socialism. Is there a way to mold socialism with republicanism. I think so. http://occupywallst.org/forum/republicanism-and-the-constitutional-republic/

[-] 6 points by shadz66 (17666) 2 years ago

@ 'invient' : Thanx for your succinct reply. I think that your post is very thought provoking indeed.

'Socialism' is just a word which thanx to The (mis)Education System & The Toxic-MSM, seems to provoke all sorts of emotional, knee-jerk, negative responses in Americans in particular - whose internalised 'Cold War' Propaganda, still chimes in their Collective Psyche. I am not as particularly attached to The Word as I am to The Ideas.

For example and re. Germany ; The Marshal Plan ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshall_Plan ) was hugely important to post-war Germany - between 1948 & 1952/53 and indeed it could be easily argued (esp. by the likes of me ;-) that the USA needs a Rooseveltian New Deal and 'Marshal Plan' right now, particularly for its crumbling infrastructure. However, the primary financial beneficiaries of The Cold War was ... The US Military Industrial Complex & The US 'Multi-National Corporations' !!!

The really interesting conclusion to draw is the way post-war West Germany rebuilt & moved its Society forward as a result of being freed from the expense & 'societal energy sapping' of The Military WAR Machine. The same is of course true for Japan. Finally it should be noted that Re-Unified Germany has rebuilt and integrated (and still continues to do so), the erstwhile East-Germany - with all the massive concomitant financial costs involved but still Germany continues to invest in its people & strengthen its Civil Society. Now many - and indeed most Germans, won't necessarily consider that their strong and compassionate society is 'Socialist' but try to dispassionately consider the nature & progression of their Society and I care not for what words are used to describe their system, all I'd like is for every country on Earth (US/UK et al) to have the opportunity for some of that !!

My final point is to draw attention to the fact that 'The Cold War' has been over for well over 20 years (a generation, no less !!) but how come The American Citizenry has seen NOUGHT ; NOTHING ; NADA ... of Any Peace Dividend ?! Or have massive efforts been made to replace 'The Cold War' with an Endless & Ongoing New 'Hot' Global War ... ON TERROR ?!

Et Cui Bono ?

[-] 3 points by invient (360) 2 years ago

I would have to say that you are right... in the sense that the cold war served to transfer power to the military-industrial complex, and to fuel its legitimacy to continue, a perpetual war needed to be started. It is always easier to give power than it is to take it away.

[-] 4 points by shadz66 (17666) 2 years ago

IF you fancy an uplifting & illuminating 15 mins. : Try 'Zizek @ OWS' ; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89Ck-5fHTnM ! He has a strong sLOVEnian accent so thank goodness for 'MIC-CHECK' !!

Furthermore, re. The Film "INSIDE JOB", about the 2008 'WALL $t. HEI$T, please see :

"It's a powerhouse of a documentary that will leave you both thunderstruck and boiling with rage."

pax, amor et lux ...

[-] 2 points by invient (360) 2 years ago

I would have to say that you are right... in the sense that the cold war served to transfer power to the military-industrial complex, and to fuel its legitimacy to continue, a perpetual war needed to be started. It is always easier to give power than it is to take it away.

[-] 4 points by TrevorMnemonic (5827) 2 years ago

A guy posted this a few days ago. I thought it was pretty awesome.

"Anti-Socialism. This is perhaps the stupidest thing I've ever heard. What do they think the public school system is? Or police? Or fire fighters? Or transportation and the roads you drive on? If they hate socialism, they clearly hate the majority of the functions that make their life worthwhile; not to mention the lives of everyone else who lives in our country. I understand that they've been constantly told to believe that socialism is bad and then referenced to people like Hitler (who, by the way, was a fascist, not a socialist), but for god's sake, educate yourselves on what economies actually work and why. The fact is, having a capitalistic society AND a socialist society is far better than having one or the other. Why? Because if you have a public option (say, public school), then all of the options that would require you to pay (a capitalistic option, such as private school) have to be that much more impressive, competitive, and effective than they otherwise would. Without that competition (again, these guys LOVE competition), we just apathy by those in charge who don't have to really bother competing. They can just do whatever moderate job they feel like, effectively becoming the free standard, but paying for it."

[-] 5 points by shadz66 (17666) 2 years ago

@ 'TM' & 'i' : I too very much like what the "guy posted" and as such I sincerely recommend : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism for cool and leisurely later reflection & thanx for the quote.

I do NOT wish for, desire or advocate State Ownership Of Everything ... FAR from it. I wish there to be a myriad competing entrepreneurs ; I want free and fair competition between the best ideas and many 'modus operandi' in many matters ; I want Equality Of Opportunity For All, especially for the younger generation - Irrespective of 'Class', Financial Standing or Familial Favours & Advantages and I want a Strong, Responsive and Effective Democracy.

In short I am not interested in 'dumbing down' and 'factoring people down' with any 'Lowest Common Denominators' - I want individuals, families and communities to rise up to their Highest Potential. I want an equal playing field and fair advancement to be available for all, no matter what 'class', colour or creed. I have a lot of time for Adam Smith, who often warns against monopoly and cartels and who I regard as a Moral Philosopher more than a 'Free Market Fundamentalist'.

I desire all this for Everyone Everywhere and I yearn for All of Us to be free of The Despotism Of The Banksters and to be emancipated from The Stifling Clutches Of The 'Permanent-War' Machine.

I want a Fair Society with good shared Healthcare For All and good Educational Opportunities For All. I want voting to mean something and I want Political Parties and Corporations OUT of Our Democracies - wherever WE are ... and I do NOT regard all of this as 'utopian' or 'idealistic' .... I regard it as eminently doable and desirable and well within our human capabilities.

pax, amor et lux ...

[-] 2 points by invient (360) 2 years ago

That is a great quote... as always the answer somewhere in the middle.

[-] 2 points by TrevorMnemonic (5827) 2 years ago

Yeah I post this all the time. I've said things like this, but nowhere near as well phrased as this. The guy's whole post was actually amazing.

Here's some other parts. The way it's written is directed toward the opposition.

‎"First, let me state a positive party point for you. Corporations are necessary for a world growing like ours. This is true. They can provide infrastructures and research to develop technologies that small businesses would not be able to effectively produce on their own (at least without a great deal of effort). We are not opposing this. We are, however, not ignorant to the atrocities that they have committed in order to further their monetary actions. There are select people of extraordinary wealth that have exploited the system for personal, selfish gain, at the expense of the American people (or, really, any country in the world). The morality of it is reprehensible. That is something that we do oppose."

By now, you should realize that corporations have lobbyists in government. There is one reason for this: to influence law. That is directly contradictory to a free market. So if you support a free market, then you should be assisting with the Occupy movement, because they are intelligent enough to realize that regulations in our system favor the corporate agendas to an extent where the entirety of what a free market stands for is impossible. In a free market, every competitor has a fair chance. As it stands, we do not have anything remotely close to a free market. The republicans say they stand for a free market, yet are supporting the very ideals that would push us further away from one. Allowing the corporations to go "unregulated" would just mean they retain total control over what regulations they can put on their competitors. And the result is that small businesses would be unable to compete, forcing everyone into a compliance of however corporations wanted to run things.

You seem to hate government for the qualities that corporations possess, but you don't seem to be capable of making that distinction. Tell me, what is health care? It's a fee that is spread between a collective pool to make sure that everyone can get treatment. And what is health insurance? It's a fee that is spread between a collective pool to presumably assist with medical costs. But what is the real difference between the two? Accountability. Whether it's corporations handling a major project or the government, the result is the same with one fundamental difference: who do you trust, and why. And if your instinct is to trust corporations, why? Are you blind to what has taken place? Are you really so unobservant that you can't see that health insurance has been committing atrocities to Americans and those that they are supposed to be helping? They don't have to be transparent or accountable in their actions, and they've been doing everything in their power to grow their wealth at the expense of the people that really need their help. There's so much more to this, but we move on Anti-Socialism. This is perhaps the stupidest thing I've ever heard.... and this part you've read. already in my previous comment.

‎"A debt-based monetary system, where money comes into existence primarily through private bank lending, can neither create, nor sustain, a stable economic environment, but has proven to be a source of chronic financial instability and frequent crisis, as evidenced by the near collapse of the financial system in 2008."

‎"Banks increased their value by lending money imprudently, which greatly inflated the value of bank holdings, exposing depositors and taxpayers to the risks of schemes like the bundling of subprime mortgages, and ultimately bringing undercapitalized banks and the entire financial system to the edge of ruin, creating circumstances where the taxpayers of the United States were called upon to save the banks from their own imprudent lending practices, misspending and mis-investments. The banks' ability to create money out of nothing ultimately became the taxpayers' liability, and raises a fundamental question about a practice of money creation which threatens the wealth of the American people."

‎"Our money system is not what we have been led to believe. The creation of money has been "privatized," or taken over by private money lenders. Thomas Jefferson called them “bold and bankrupt adventurers just pretending to have money.” Except for coins, all of our money is now created as loans advanced by private banking institutions — including the privately-owned Federal Reserve. Banks create the principal but not the interest to service their loans. To find the interest, new loans must continually be taken out, expanding the money supply, inflating prices — and robbing you of the value of your money."

[-] 3 points by shadz66 (17666) 2 years ago

Further to and in order to compliment, the above :

radix malorum est cupiditas ...

[-] 3 points by shadz66 (17666) 2 years ago

In a similar vein :

veritas vos liberabit ...

[-] 4 points by shadz66 (17666) 2 years ago

In order to better understand just what "The Markets" are up to :

fiat lux ...

[+] -5 points by nibiru2014 (-5) 3 days ago

CRONY Capitalism is what we have had for a couple of decades now. And now you are seeing the results. CAPITALISM WORKS!!! The proof is right there in front of you. You wouldn't be sitting there wrapped up in your synthetic blanket, sipping your Starbucks coffee, tapping on your iPad, texting and chatting with your socialist buddies, if Capitalism didn't work. In all of your theories the inventors and entrepreneurs cease to exist due to lack of incentive. We are all naturally selfish in that we want reward for our toil and labor. If anyone here denies that, then they are denying basic human nature/instinct. What we may consider excessive compensation, was made possible by the very screwy laws passed by our corrupt Congress. As is the same for the housing mortgage scandal. Laws created by our out of control Congress allowed that happen.

Please realize you are being used by failed 1960's communist activists who, then attempted to overthrow our government.

The Tea Party movement is being backed by the Koch brothers through an organization deceptively called Americans for Prosperity. See "The Billionaire's Tea Party" on Netflix.

The Occupy Wall Street Movement started with a writer from the New York Times, Natasha Lennard, re-tweeting a hoax from a good friend, that the band Radio Head was going to be at Occupy Wall Street because organizers were attracting few people. Feeding off of this successful hoax we then had the orchestrated shut down of the Brooklyn Bridge. Where if anyone wanted to be arrested all they had to do was line up and wait, as did Natasha Lennard. Lennard, someone who is supposedly an objective journalist is caught on camera trying to figure out ways to manipulate the audience to become supporters of occupy wall street. See "Occupy Unmasked" on Netflix. See an interview while people are being bussed into a Cleveland Neighborhood. The man being interviewed tells us that he was paid $60 to be there. He did not know why he was there. And Michael Moore at a protest for occupy wall street where the main theme is income inequality??!! How much of his $50 million is he willing to donate to the cause? I bet he was paid to be there.

We need to return to the Classical Liberal form of government left to us by the likes of Thomas Jefferson. As expounded upon by Ayn Rand in Atlas Shrugged. She is a true prophet, if they ever existed. Based on the predominant moral theory of any society, one can predict their future. It is so true, and we are now seeing "ethical basis and dimension" of socialism/communism/fascism creep ever closer to our doorsteps.

[-] 4 points by shadz66 (17666) 3 days ago

Ayn Rand ?! ''She is a true prophet ... '' ?!! OMG !!! + fyi :

''In America, we debate everything except capitalism. If there’s an institution in your society that’s above criticism, you’re giving it a free pass to indulge all of its weaknesses and darker tendencies. An honest, healthy society would never shrink away from debating where we’re at with capitalism. Can we do better? How might that work?'' Also please consider :

You deserve and will receive a more comprehensive reply but as I am in a rush right now, the link above indicates where I will be coming and is here appended as a primer. Have you got what it takes to read it I wonder ? If so, maybe also try to consider : http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/23075-was-marx-right ?

fiat lux ...

[+] -4 points by ZenDog (20546) from South Burlington, VT 3 days ago

An economist who cannot or who will not examine the political forces producing that reversal in any depth or clarity.

It is simply not possible to pull the President to the left while repelicans have him effectively pinned where he is. Perhaps your Wolff missed all of the repelican intransigence with regard to the budget debate - I don't know how because it was an economic issue and the repelicans turned to both the issue and strategy repeatedly.

Threatening default on the nations debt simply never occurred in American history, until now.

Attempting to pull the President to the left with negative punditry at a point in time where it is certain to be ineffective has but one result, and that is to tarnish the man and anyone who stands with him, causing people to turn away - and into this void repelicans do plan to prosper.

But I think you knew that already.

after all, everyone else around here seems to be a repelican shill - with a few notable exceptions of course, at least two of whom have been successfully driven off

nice work

I hate repelicans. I hate them. Lying libertarian koch.sucking scum.

[-] 6 points by shadz66 (17666) 3 days ago

Your attachment to The Binary and pedestal placement of Obomber and belief in one half of the puppet play, as well as your blind faith in & affiliation for .. the illusion of the 'political process of the status quo' in The U$A - is as sad as it is baffling. I do wonder what it is that you think OWS is all about ? Also fyi :

''Obama’s Presidency is continuing the reversal of the New Deal. Unfortunately, that’s the role Obama has played and the legacy he’ll leave.'' And btw did you even read the short Prof. Wolff piece I wonder ?

Not everyone who sees through your hallowed POTUS is a ''repelican shill'' - ''But I think you already know that'' & if you don't, then you're delusional OR up a river in Egypt and without a paddle, to boot ! Demoblican or Republocrat - they're both in the pockets of Banksters and Corporations and in thrall to Neoliberalism and Austerity at home and Neocon Imperial Adventurism abroad !! WTFU ZenDeluded !!!

verum ex absurdo ...

[-] -3 points by ZenDog (20546) from South Burlington, VT 3 days ago

somehow I'm sure you heard Chomsky say virtual parliament and yet your insistence on bashing the only people attempting to do anything about it is really . . . sad . . . wrong term . . . pathetic . . . a bit closer I guess.

Unless of course you are already well aware of what you are doing, in which case it is simply deceitful.

I really don't like LIbertarian Liars and Koch suckers

[-] 4 points by shadz66 (17666) 3 days ago

Hmmm. So re. ''the only people ...'' - Dennis Kucinich & Cynthia McKinney .. wtf happened to them ?!!! Elizabeth Warren is being ever more marginalised too ... mostly by her own party ffs !! Your Manichean Binary is self defeating Dog and Chomsky btw, has LOTS to say about the state of affairs in The U$A !

respice, adspice, prospice ...

[-] -3 points by ZenDog (20546) from South Burlington, VT 3 days ago

Chomsky is a genius no doubt. Unfortunately his education lacks a significant component, that being the way in which frat boyz get together to haze the public.

Kinda what repelicans are doing now. And honestly I'm not sure about any of the individuals you just named.