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Forum Post: can't wait for the election to be over so we can move on to real issues

Posted 9 years ago on Aug. 12, 2012, 2:22 p.m. EST by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA
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[-] 5 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 9 years ago

This election is the issue. If we continue to blindly elect by party affiliation instead of by leadership, fairness, knowledge, and virtue, we will remain in the same rut that has led us into financial collapse, ever increasing loss of personal freedoms, and a government that listens to the wealthy instead of the people.

If this election results in the same duopoly that has reigned for decades, the real issue will be what is wrong with the American citizens. Are they so blind they can't see the economic injustice of the few prospering at the expense of the many, so afraid they can't vote for their best candidate, so disillusioned that they don't bother to speak out?

When a nation fails to stand up for what is right, knowing full well the wrongs committed, they become collaborators with injustice, and their children will drink the poison that is it's product.

[-] 1 points by LeoYo (5909) 9 years ago

There's nothing wrong with American citizens that hasn't been wrong with the whole of humanity whenever and wherever tyranny has reigned unchallenged. Americans don't care about economic injustice that doesn't immediately affect them as individuals. If fairness, knowledge, and virtue, were ever qualities that Americans valued, there never would have been a Federalist Party in the beginning, a Democratic Party during and after the Civil War era, and a Republican Party today. Americans vote for what they want regardless of fairness or indeed at expense of it whenever it conflicts with their collective desires.

[-] 0 points by DouglasAdams (208) 9 years ago

Are they so blind they cannot see the economic injustice of the few prospering at the expense of the many, so afraid they can't vote for their best candidate, so disillusioned that they don't bother to speak out?

The media has not functioned as a free press. Everyone in media has to be paid. The more that is paid, the more media is received. You don’t get too much for free these days. Dissent has been marginalized. So much for free speech.

Fox News is the epitome of the well-oiled perpetual propaganda machine. How do they manage to spout pro-Republican perspective, proclaim to be fair and unbiased while dogging the Democratic Party around the clock?

The really important news and political analysis is censored by corporatized media. For example no one mentions 9-11 Truth on TV anymore. Where is the outrage about banks being too big to fail?

Max Keiser on Too Big to Fail


[-] 0 points by Odin (583) 9 years ago

Very well put.

[-] 0 points by jbgramps (159) 9 years ago

Look, Americans bought gas-guzzling SUVs and didn't save their money. People shopped at Walmart, which outsources its labor and profits to other countries (taking money out of their communities versus buying at local stores which would have saved their money in local banks and reinvested in workers, other local businesses, etc). Companies relied on making big profits fast, giving bonuses to CEOs and downsizing to keep shareholder profits at a certain point instead of trying to improve the company or close wage gaps so that workers could keep their jobs.

A president can not fix a country that wants to consume-consume-consume, doesn't give a hoot about their neighbor or community as long as THEIR kid is in a good school, and celebrates excess and greed as if we do not live in one of the most abundant lands on earth.

Problem is, people want the economy fixed, but they don't want to fix themselves. They don't want to admit how individual choices have led to the downfall of this country. They want to watch Real Housvvives and dumb shows and drink soda and eat fast food and be obese and smoke cigarettes and take NO responsiblity for how that attitude and mindset and their consumer power is feeding all the things that are affecting/messing up the country. It is SOOOOO so so so OVER to blame the president and the government for this country's problems. Because they may be bickering babies, but they ARE our representatives and Americans DID vote them into office.

and according to most polls, it is actually the upper class, educated citizens that are more likely to vote, so what does that tell you?

[-] 1 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 9 years ago

Take a look at this graph and tell me why the bottom 90%, those with incomes up to the $80,000 range, have made just 3% of the gain in wealth over the last 40 years?


[-] 0 points by jbgramps (159) 9 years ago

I don’t dispute the graph. I think any rational person knows the rich get richer and the poor get poorer.

My post was a little off topic, but my point is it doesn’t much matter who the President is. No President can fix the problems today without substantial changes in the mindset of the masses. The base problems are with the citizens values, admittedly more so among the rich.

Personally I think it’s too late for the US to avoid a financial meltdown. Too late for a political fix. I think we’re in for a heck of a depression within the next few years. Maybe when the masses are cold, scared and hungry they will realize the errors.

[-] 0 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 9 years ago

Hopefully we can avert catastrophe by educating the people on what is really going on, both economically and politically. We are changing mindsets here.

If everyone thought as you do and gave up, disaster would be assured. What about you grand children and millions of others? What value do you place on them?

[-] 1 points by jbgramps (159) 9 years ago

Interesting you mention grandchildren. I have two beautiful, happy granddaughters. One of my favorite activities is to play hide-n-seek with our youngest four year old granddaughter. But I digress.

I haven’t given up. But I see the writing on the wall. The nation is in for some of the hardest times it has ever encountered. The best thing I can to do is to do what I can to ensure my granddaughters can survive these hard times. I’m a retired farmer who now lives in town. I take my granddaughter out to the farm and teach them to be self sufficient. No, I’m not a dooms day prepper, but if it gets bad enough the girls have skills and a place to fall back on.

I believe in a lot of what OWS is about. But I think there is a misconception that when SHTF we will all join hands and sing kum-ba-yah. It’s going to be more like millions of cold, hungry, scared people doing whatever it takes to survive. It won’t be pretty.

[-] 1 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 9 years ago

Sorry to imply that you had given up already. I'm just frustrated that so many people don't bother to pay attention to the road we've been traveling for the last 40 years and where it's leading.

Borrowing without ever considering that our children will be the one's who pay. We have lost our principle and they will pay the terrible interest.


[-] 3 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 9 years ago

can't wait for the election to be over so we can move on to real issues

so many names and mis-deads

let's not forget that both parties are in collusion

why play their voting game?

[-] 0 points by vitvitvit (5) 9 years ago

Did OWS run anyone on the primary tickets for house or senate?

Or just complain all day?

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 9 years ago

research and expose

[-] 1 points by vitvitvit (5) 9 years ago

IOW nothing.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 9 years ago

I know

not a legitimate government

[-] 2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 9 years ago

We don't have to wait until after the elections to discuss real issues. Debt neutrality seems to be an issue discussed on this post that is unrelated to the elections. I think I support it (if I understand it). How do you feel about it Matt?

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 9 years ago

I think debt is fabricated so private hands get money from of the government

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 9 years ago

"fabricated" You mean not real? My debt is pretty real, I've been diggin out for almost 4 yrs. I certainly agree private 1% corps benefit from from govt low interest lending, & from putting me in debt. But I'm not sure what you refer to.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 9 years ago

fabricated\the money system was created to keep others in debt

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 9 years ago

"fabricated" You mean not real? My debt is pretty real, I've been diggin out for almost 4 yrs. I certainly agree private 1% corps benefit from from govt low interest lending, & from putting me in debt. But I'm not sure what you refer to.

[-] 2 points by TitusMoans (2451) from Boulder City, NV 9 years ago

So true. We know that regardless of who "wins" the election, the results will be very similar: marching toward that same cliff.

[-] 1 points by bensdad (8977) 9 years ago

SIMPLE- If we vote for candidates that CANNOT win


[-] 1 points by DebtNEUTRALITYpetition (647) 9 years ago

I literally fell into political research in 2008. It was the furthest thing from my mind, until I fell off of a moving car of a criminal who had just stolen my camera and then tried to run me over.

I ended up on the couch unable to move my ankle for well over a week. My folks were die hard MSNBC fans and I ended up watching the channel for 10 straight days from morning to night.

By the end of that time, I was absolutely certain that MSNBC was not providing unbiased coverage of the Hillary Clinton vs Barack Obama contest. I think the combination of George Soro's money and electing the first african american president was just too irresistible to MSNBC.

So I started researching. I think what it comes down to is both MSNBC and Fox basically cater to their most militant viewers. So all virtually news stories are either ultra progressive liberal based on MSNBC, or neo conservative based on Fox.

However, there is a huge, moderate group in the U.S. comprised of moderate republicans and moderate democrats. Moderates from both parties are continually marginalized and forgotten when news is reported.

I would estimate that only 30% to 40% of all voters are either neo conservative republicans or ultra progressive democrats, but virtually all news stories are framed to agitate these groups into action.

Hillary Clinton was the populist candidate in 2008, and that is why she was not allowed to win. Populist candidates cater to moderates, and that won't be happening anytime in the near future unless another news channel forms that reports news in a moderate way.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 9 years ago

what are the agendas of any of these candidates?

left, right and moderate mean nothing

[-] 1 points by DebtNEUTRALITYpetition (647) 9 years ago

I have to disagree. Moderates tend to want to discuss the actual issues related to a proposed idea. Neo conservatives and progressive liberals tend to demonize the other sides viewpoint.

Hillary Clinton once stated that she would work hard if elected president to come up with the best plans and ideas, and Rush Limbaugh attacked her for that statement mercilessly.

I think Hillary Clinton would have and would work harder than either Romney or Obama would, that is for sure, and I believe she would work smarter as well.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 9 years ago

and those issues are?

[-] 1 points by DebtNEUTRALITYpetition (647) 9 years ago

Home foreclosure. Hillary Clinton would not have blessed parallel foreclosures as being legal as Obama has when they are in fact a violation of the constitution.

Wall street convictions, Hillary Clinton would not have littered her administration with Wall Street yes men resulting in zero wall street convictions three and 1/2 years later.

Consumer Financial Protection bureau, Hillary Clinton would not have dragged her feet for over a year getting the bureau going, and she would have gotten Warren even if she had to make the appointment during a scheduled break, something Obama could have done but chose not to and instead went with a good old boy.

Budget restraint. Hillary Clinton would not have attempted to skid her 2012 re-election bid by doling out as much money as possible in 2008 after winning the election, as Barack Obama did.

Hillary Clinton would not have masterminded winning a Nobel Peace Prize before having done anything of note, nor would she have envisioned ending her second term in office with the Olympics in Chicago, as Obama attempted to.

Obama, the visionary of all things that promote his greatness. Hillary Clinton, working hard to make change happen.

[-] 0 points by miledan (-1) 9 years ago

You mean just like the last election in 2008 and still waiting here for him to move onto the real issues, but wait Obama has to hit the campaign trail again. Something he has done continually since 2008

[-] 0 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 9 years ago

But thats the problem- the American people think that its ALL ABOUT the elections. Thats what they do. They bitch and whine, and then they troll to the polls, pull some levers, and take the next 2 to 4 years off.

Desperately hoping that one of two parties that has been screwing them for 35 years suddenly decides they dont like money anymore.

Meanwhile, the people who campaign for decent other options look on in horror as the masses are openly endorse bought off criminals. The flood of ignorance in November is a hell of a tidal wave to fight.

[-] 1 points by DebtNEUTRALITYpetition (647) 9 years ago

I'm basically working one hour of internet time for every petition vote I get for debt neutrality. Debt Neutrality would hurt no one while helping the entire country and it is not government entitlement program, it's an anti debt enslaverment movement.


[-] 1 points by vitvitvit (5) 9 years ago

Debt neutrality would hurt no one?

What about all the teachers, doctors, lawyers, policeman, fire fighters, engineers, business people, researchers, veterinarians, mothers, fathers, white and blue collar workers who have their 401K's, IRA's, retirement and pension funds invested in debt?

Wouldn't hurt them? Really?

[-] 1 points by DebtNEUTRALITYpetition (647) 9 years ago

You're not serious, are you? You've completely oversimplified a very complex issue with your accusation.

It would take 8 years to pay DOWN consumer debt to a realistic and much more normal level. That means for eight years banks would get steady payments from tens of millions of people who otherwise will default, and then be scarlet lettered in their credit ratings for possibly the rest of their lives, all the while paying excessively outrageous interest rate payments on any credit they do get.

How can you compare the banks indenturing people forever at rates that vary between 6% to 30% versus a group of well paid professionals who will get a 4% to 6% return on most of their investments?

And the investments are not even being made locally. So these professionals you speak of demand to paid what they feel they are worth now, when they retire, and also demand the right to prevent small business owners from growing their businesses locally because the professionals investment monies is going overseas and coming back as cheaper and many times inferior quality products that drive many small businesses out of business, and then give local cities an excuse to raise taxes even higher for the businesses that do remain to take up the tax revenue slack.

There has been such a huge erosion of lost equity for all americans of 7 to 10 trillion dollars since 2006, and you are worried about a minimal return on investments? There is no way that the return on investments can even come close to comparing with the loss of 7 to 10 trillion dollars of lost equity since 2006.

A stable, non growth economy is essential for all americans to move forward, and that can't happen when those in debt are paying a total of 1 billion dollars a day just in interest payment charges on 2 to 3 trillion dollars of consumer debt. And most of that one billion dollars a day in interest rate charges IS NOT going towards the people you mentioned anyways.

[-] 1 points by vitvitvit (5) 9 years ago

Group of "well paid professionals"? More than HALF the working people in this country have retirement funds. Do you get that?

Don't run around telling us "debt neutrality" will hurt no one. You're obviously not a math genius or a person who can take information and put it together in a cogent thought.

Americans don't "move forward" with a country of deadbeats. Try again.

[-] 1 points by DebtNEUTRALITYpetition (647) 9 years ago

um, you are in the middle of student loan forgiveness country, and you think my position is radical?????????

[-] 1 points by vitvitvit (5) 9 years ago

Your position is extremely radical. Pay your debts. PERIOD.

[-] 1 points by DebtNEUTRALITYpetition (647) 9 years ago

dumb arse, and quit making accusations, idiot.

[-] -1 points by Odin (583) 9 years ago

A democracy/republic is only as good as its citizens are involved. "The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground." Thomas Jefferson