Forum Post: Class Warfare ~ You Decide
Posted 12 years ago on July 19, 2012, 8:52 p.m. EST by ZenDogTroll
(13032)
from South Burlington, VT
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
“When I look at the Republicans, I am tempted to dismiss them as the Treason Party. Seriously, were a band of traitors to concoct a series of positions deliberately designed to weaken America, they would be hard pressed to beat the current GOP dogma — hobble education, starve the government by slashing taxes to the rich, kneecap attempts to jumpstart the economy by fixating on debt, invite corporations to dominate political discourse, balkanize the population by demonizing minorities and immigrants and let favored religions dictate social policy.”
Neil Steinberg, In a Chicago-Sun Times Column called, “Happy Fourth of July to the Treason Party” July 3, 2012; with many thanks to: Left of the Mark
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Morning Quote: Newt Gingrich Denies Recognition of the 99%
“I repudiate, and I call on the President to repudiate, the concept of the 99 and the 1. It is un-American, it is divisive, it is historically false…You are not going to get job creation when you engage in class warfare because you have to attack the very people you hope will create jobs.”
with many thanks to Political Ruminations
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07 November 2011, Morning Quote: John Boehner
“The top 1 percent pay 38 percent of the income taxes in America. You know, how much more do you want them to pay? ”
- Speaker of the House, John Boehner, to Christiane Amanpour on “This Week’ yesterday, employing the ubiquitous right wing meme, the "Poor Rich People Mantra" in defense of Republican policies.
Boehner also implied that the Occupy Wall Street protests were about class warfare, and yet, in 2010, the wealthiest 1% of U.S. citizens held 70% of all U.S. financial assets. 70%. And still, the 1% don’t pay a fair share of taxes, skating by through the use of a tax code which favors the rich.
with many thanks to Political Ruminations
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Go ahead.
Think for yourself.
I have thought for myself. And continue to come to the same conclusion after 38 years of voting. Both parties still suck.
Both parties suck power from their supporters. Brainwashed like gang members, that surrendering their power to the group brings greater power to all. What they forget is the price they paid to become a member. Their honesty. It was sucked from them and replaced by loyalty. And loyalty does not see the injustice that the group commits. It only sees the group, and every injustice it commits is right!
The repubs proudly trumpet the conservative policies that the 1% plutocrats.
Some dems have betrayed progressive principles, but most do not. Dems can be dragged back from the right and made to serve the 99%
Elect progressives, Vote out pro plutocrat republicans
Me to.
Me three.
Me four.
and scalia = sotomayor
and GM = no GM
and 1% = 99%
and that's what david & charles & alec told me
Yeah yeah, we know, bensdad. Vote for Odrona the Indefinite Detainer!
http://open.salon.com/blog/watchingfrogsboil/2012/07/12/world_war_web_advisory_8_internet_executive_order_epcf
why the new handle?
He's not very good at remembering numbers, along with a lot of other things.
He's best at loving (R)epelican'ts. and their supporters.
He doesn't much like the rest of us.
Neither me nor anyone associated with me or representing me has ever posted anything to this forum or anywhere else on the Internet promoting the Republican Party or any of its candidates, because we know they are just as corrupt as the Democratic Party and all of its candidates. Once again you make a baseless and insupportable claim against me which proves only what a liar you are, shooz.
You, like many of your "associates" do that by virtue of omission.
It's actually pretty obvious.
All one has to do, although I wouldn't recommend it, is to follow your links, Bruce.
Have you yet provided a list of 900+ anti-womens rights bills enacted by the "left"?
One was provided showing those bills passed by the "right". You can look it up.
This disproves the biggest lie you've attempted to pass. That all parties are alike.
It's BS, and it always was.
You are a complete idiot, shooz, and have no idea who you are replying to. If you did, you'd know that I do not accept the false left/right paradigm and I do not focus first on the issues that divide the people rather than the issues that unite them. What the Democrats and Republicans agree on is far more damaging and dangerous than what they don't, you moron. Both have to go, as do you and the rest of the pro-regime plants polluting this forum and our movement.
Do you ever have anything besides insults and repetitive rhetoric?
Your line is one used by the founder of ALEC.
It's also been used extensively by Karl himself.
So? Can you show me the 900+ bills?
Put up. Or shut the hell up.
Fuck the Democrats. Fuck the Republicans. Fuck Obama. Fuck Romney. Fuck Wedge Issues. Fuck Rigged Elections. Fuck Partisan Posers. Fuck Pro-Regime Plants. Fuck Fair Weather Revolutionaries. Fuck Slacktivists. And FUCK YOU.
900+ anti-rights bills and this is still your answer?
You have no cogent response?
You're a bigger fool than I am.
Or it's you who is the partisan hack, just for a different party.
And he wonders why he gets censored/banned where ever he posts.
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Well if you slam your bedroom door one more time you're going to be grounded for a week, with no computer or cell!
Make sure you share your disapproval with the RNC, Rove, Armey, Drudge, and Beck websites. I heard them all call you a big, frightened pussy.
Why don't you stop with the nasty offensive attacks. You haven't changed in all the months you've been on this forum. Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't give you the right to insult them.
It's so tiresome.
Please!
Peace
Fuck the Democrats. Fuck the Republicans. Fuck Obama. Fuck Romney.
Fuck Wedge Issues. Fuck Staged Elections. And Fuck Idiots like YOU.
your becoming unhinged. Take a breath.
perhaps because you deny your true republican colors. If you embraced them and admitted your pro 1% plutocrat goals you might be more at peace with yourself. And the uncontrollable vulgarity might dissipate.
OOOOMMHH!
Fuck the Democrats. Fuck the Republicans. Fuck Obama. Fuck Romney. Fuck Wedge Issues. Fuck Rigged Elections. Fuck Posers. Fuck Plants. Fuck Slacktivists. And FUCK YOU.
LMFAO
I wonder if he knows that fucking can really be quite pleasant?
I wish he didn't run out of "reply" tabs.
Fuck the Democrats. Fuck the Republicans. Fuck Obama. Fuck Romney. Fuck Wedge Issues. Fuck Rigged Elections. Fuck Partisan Posers. Fuck Pro-Regime Plants. Fuck Fair Weather Revolutionaries. Fuck Slacktivists. And FUCK YOU.
Please don't hold back tell us how you feel.
Hey what about Wilma Flintstone and Whitey Ford and Apple and Starbucks??
Dude, you do realize that the parties are just people just like you. They make mistakes, they believe asinine things, and they make the wrong assumptions. To error is to be human.
My point being, do you honestly believe that there is a regime that could be implemented that would cure all of our contentions? I say those that believe they have the perfect regime are the ones who are the most dangerous to a society. Have a little humility with your humanity, man.
Agreed. Whoever we get in there will need us to be active participants in protesting, holding their feet to the fire.
It is our apathy and sleep that allowed things to get so bad. We let the 1% plutocrats take over. If voter turnout was better than 60% we might make progress.
Disregard VVV he is clearly hostile and unstable.
Peace, & Solidarity.
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Humble has never been one of Bruce's strong points.
Your statement is 100% correct.
Perfection exists only in myths, lies and delusion.
What the politically disgruntled are really having trouble with is the shamefully decrepit state of our political system caused by OUR neglect and Big $ exploitation. Fortunately, our forefathers made this system with the strongest, most resilient substance known to man: democracy! Just add Votes and watch it kick the Big $ bastards out of our government and start addressing OUR wants and needs!
But it will never be neat, efficient and pure; for that you must seek dictatorship/totalitarianism. Hey "vvv" try North Korea, you'll love it!
Don't let Big $ hog our government, get out the Vote! 2010 Never EVER Again!!
Wake Up! It's Class War, Shock Doctrine is the strategy, and we're losing!
Snide is a common characteristic of Con zombie Trolls!!
what is a shooz?
A rose by any other name.
What's a freehorseman?
No work and all play.Every single day!
Ain't retirement grand?
After you get in 40+ maybe you can do that too.
Yes it is grand.My only regret it I did not do it sooner.
"shooz" is a medical term, originally Austrian I believe. It means "living brain donor".
Thanks.
Why the same old pro-regime, pro-Democrat, pro-Obama, pro-Two Party Tyranny, counterrevolutionary propaganda, "bensdad"? Why not just post "Vote for Bushbamney" a million times over and be done with it?
because that is not the truth - of which you know little
We post nothing BUT the truth, bensdad. You post nothing but spin. lies and Obamapologies:
Fuck the Democrats. Fuck the Republicans. Fuck Obama. Fuck Romney. Fuck Wedge Issues. Fuck Rigged Elections. Fuck Slacktivists.
And FUCK YOU.
Who's fucking we? What fucking truth?
Really?
What's David and Charles telling you to do?
David and Charles are telling me to support the Hell out of the Democrat or Republican candidates of my choice, because either way that perpetuates the Two-Party Tyranny that they and the rest of the elite control from both sides:
FUCK THE DEMOCRATS. FUCK THE REPUBLICANS. FUCK OBAMA. FUCK ROMNEY. AND FUCK YOU...
Then why are the Kochs funding the repubs against the dems.?
You don't even pretend what you spew is truth. Do you even realise what kind of contradiction your spewing. do you?
Fuck the Democrats. Fuck the Republicans. Fuck Obama. Fuck Romney. Fuck Wedge Issues. Fuck Rigged Elections. Fuck Posers. Fuck Plants. Fuck Slacktivists. And FUCK YOU.
Fuck you, you fuckin, fuck.
Fuck
LMFAO
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You should lay off the Viagra Bruce. It's affected your thinking.
Have you considered a cogent answer to any question?
Fuck the Democrats. Fuck the Republicans. Fuck Obama. Fuck Romney. Fuck Wedge Issues. Fuck Rigged Elections. Fuck Partisan Posers. Fuck Pro-Regime Plants. Fuck Fair Weather Revolutionaries. Fuck Slacktivists. And FUCK YOU.
I guess not.
This is defining evidence of unclear thinking.
Can I see the quote from David and Charles?
You do make a lot of stuff up Bruce and it wold be nice to see something real for a change.
You sure a horny fellow, but please, keep your filthy hands to yourself.
The biggest most dangerous tyranny is the corporate one.
The one that's run by avowed libe(R)tarians.
So will you now call it a three way?
Fuck the Democrats. Fuck the Republicans. Fuck Obama. Fuck Romney. Fuck Wedge Issues. Fuck Rigged Elections. Fuck Partisan Posers. Fuck Pro-Regime Plants. Fuck Fair Weather Revolutionaries. Fuck Slacktivists. And FUCK YOU.
Couldn't do it, eh?
So throw a tantrum?
Fuck the Democrats. Fuck the Republicans. Fuck Obama. Fuck Romney. Fuck Wedge Issues. Fuck Rigged Elections. Fuck Two_Party Tyranny. Fuck Partisan Posers. Fuck Pro-Regime Plants. Fuck Fair Weather Revolutionaries. Fuck Slacktivists. And FUCK YOU.
It's not even a very good tantrum.
Too much Jack Daniels last night leave you with yet another hang over?
Perfection exists only in myths, lies and delusion.
What the politically disgruntled are really having trouble with is the shamefully decrepit state of our political system caused by OUR neglect and Big $ exploitation. Fortunately, our forefathers made this system with the strongest, most resilient substance known to man: democracy! Just add Votes and watch it kick the Big $ bastards out of our government and start addressing OUR wants and needs!
But it will never be neat, efficient and pure; for that you must seek dictatorship/totalitarianism. Hey "vvv" try North Korea, you'll love it!
Don't let Big $ hog our government, get out the Vote! 2010 Never EVER Again!!
Wake Up! It's Class War, Shock Doctrine is the strategy, and we're losing!
OK Sunshine, you've repeated what you don't approve of a billion nauseating times, could you just once apprise us of what you do approve of? What political solution do you NOT want to FUCK??
Those people indefinitely detained are left over from your boy Bush. Obama would have tried them if not for your republican obstruction.
No new ones from Pres Obama.
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So you don't like anybody. If only we were all as good and smart as you.
I imagine if we all chose your approach we would inevitably escalate to real violence.
Is that what you want.?
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Well at least he didn't lie us into two bogus wars for oil and let Big $ gamblers destroy the world economy and the livelihoods and lives of hundreds of millions.
Perfection does not exist, but Obama and Dems are WORLDS better than Big $ and Cons!!!
Wake Up! It's Class War and We're losing!! Get Out The VOTE!!
The repubs proudly trumpet the conservative policies that the 1% plutocrats.
Some dems have betrayed progressive principles, but most do not. Dems can be dragged back from the right and made to serve the 99%
Elect progressives, Vote out pro plutocrat republicans
Me five.
Aahh you are the 5th in the group. You like your teammates?
first I cannot find the original post I responded to. "You like your teammates?" It's is not a question of me liking any of these guys. I respect the people that don't agree with me, and the like-minded people here if I feel that they are following their conscience, and are not shills for either party, but when their main focus for being here on this forum becomes turning into election central, it is difficult flor me to remain silent as I care deeply about this movement, and the direction it is going. That's all.
I care about the movement. But only to the extent that it can create change. I don't love it just to love it.
Recreate govt, or reform govt. I believe our movement must pursue both goals. I believe we can.
The original post was just another "parties are the same fallacy" designed to minimize OWS progressive voter turnout and hand more power to the conservative pro 1% plutocrat puppet politicians.
You consider yourself a revolutionary. You are now quick to list your credentials as being a street protest person, and equally as quick to morph into a 'get out the vote' man. From the time you have arrived here two, or three months ago, you have been a whirl-wind for pushing party/canidates non-stop as the answer to our problems. I find that amusing, disingenuous, and incredulous.
My pro dem comments come in response to the anti dem/Obama attacks.
My get out the vote comments are in response to the "parties are the same" fallacies. They ain't the same, they are vastly different.
Also when people here encourage OWS progressives the give up their right to vote, I respond by urging more of us to elect progressives.
I also protest on the street. I was in queens yesterday at the Occupy town square event. At the humanist table. Were you? or are you just putting people down? trying to get people to stop something rather than encouraging positive action?
I guess I'm complicated. Mainly though it is simple. I embrace all non violent tactics. and most political persuasions. I think all the negative put downs/comments are just verbal violence. So much energy wasted on negativity. Imagine what could be accomplished by using that effort for good.
Peace
At some point ~ especially going into an election ~ you have to get suspicious. I refuse to believe they can be that naive or stupid.
Could there be a more diabolical KingCon plot to steal an election???!!! They've tried every~Voter Suppression~thing else!! (Complete reply above.)
It's insidious
So, is he evil or stupid?? Frankly, I don't think it matters. Get real! Any advocation against Voting is fucking treason! More Voting!! Much MUCH more Voting!!! Everything wrong with our system, is due to a lack of Voting!!
Get out the Vote!
I think he is evil. I think he is a republican plant. So that is how he will be dealt with.
I don't believe his story about being with Occupy Town Square. He simply encourages the progressive OWS supporters to not vote for dems.
I also recall him discouraging protesting also so.
He never says much else.
You don't want to believe someone is being so dishonest, but that's Con MO 101.
Do you get Prog-Talk Radio? http://normangoldman.com/listen/
http://www.randirhodes.com/main.html
Many more
I will check it out.
Thx
There is nothing so "complicate[ed]" about a person who is trying to turn this into election central. Please don't sully Occupy Town Square's agenda of reaching out, and educatuing people with your agenda of turning this into a dem platform. I have broken bread with most of these people, I know most of their backgrounds, and have sat in a circle with them on a cold night in a park planning an event with them, after they worked, or had gone to school all day. The only energy that would be "wasted" is if you were successful in turning this into a political movement. Fortunately, the people in OTS, and OWS know better.
As far as me being in Queens yesterday......no I wasn't there since i am now 4,000 miles away in Alaska visiting family. You can rest assured though when i return back east, i will be there, on the day of the event, and i will arrive long before the start to help set up, and I'll be there long after the end to pack it all up as I have been in the past. And there won't be any dem flyers to put out, or pack away.
Yeah great, can you guys get some good "loud and clear" signs (no cardboard and crayon) reminding people about the Class War we are losing!!! Please!!! Hold the Woodstock!! Just in case MSM comes by with a camera. Appreciate it.
What materials are you making your signs from?
(no reply tab) How about United in solidarity instead of independently. Numbers!
Coroplast! That's a very appropriate name, it even sounds indestructible! Now let's find a printer/sign shop!!
All numbers begin with one, then two, then three........
That corrugated plastic stuff that real estate agents and trade unions use! If you give a shit you have to show it! It's all about image, IMAGE!!!
During the winter hiatus a few of us were discussing finding a national printer to do the signs, so they'd have continuity and convey unity and organization! But the idea and enthusiasm fizzled with the apparent fizzling of OWS. We could still do it! We just have to find a national printer/print shop, preferably a Union shop.
Get out the Vote! Don't be Conned! 2010 Never EVER Again!!
The material is called coroplast. One person in our group uses it. Durable and more waterproof than cardboard and available at any sign shop. Use wet erase markers to print with like you see on outdoor restaurant signs.
Occupy becomes stronger when any one one of us independently chooses to take to the streets. Stay focused and visible!
Whenever MSM comes to an Occupy event, you can rest assured that it will not be covered accurately, and there will be no in depth reporting as to why people are so pissed off. Having put two kids through university, I use that to advance/legitimize their/our cause, wearing my Dad of a Fordham Grad tee shirt most often. I have challenged the cops on different occasions asking them, 'Do you think that you will be able to put two kids through college (as in paid for) on your blue collar salary as my wife, and I did.?
The perception that you get from MSM is skewed to say the least, and there are more, and more people who have done their 'thing' in life that are now part of this movement. Still though overwhelmingly, it is the young people who keep this movement going. I wish i could do more for them/us.
Give MSM no alternative but good shots! Image is your best friend and worst enemy. Control your image and give MSM not bad shots. The entire reason for OWS is IMAGES ON TV!!
They need graphics, eventually the will take whatever pic/shot they can get. Make sure it has Loud and Clear "Croplast" signs and American flags in it! Never ever challenge the cops! Even up here, they seem wacked out, and totally robocopped. Don't challenge them, it's bad image, and can turn out bad. MSM and Cops work for and are beholden to the 1%. They are pressured to come down on you. Use it in your favor. Always have lots and lots of loud and clear signs and American Flags!!
Thanks for the good advice. I follow most of it, but i do challenge the cops in a decent way. Image is important, but in the end MSM seems to try its best to portray the worst image possible. I do trim my beard, and dress well when i take part in protests, or any OWS events, as many other people do. I try to legitimize those young people who sacrifice so much more than me. I even carried a sign with my granddaughter's picture on it which said something like, 'I am here for her.'
Lots and lots of Loud and Clear Signs and Flags, signs and flag!! If all they get is a shot of a bunch of American Flags it would the best thing you guys could do.
Most of the protest marches that I have taken part in have had an American flag in the front. I brought my little flag that I got from Obama's inauguration to the city several times including the time he was there fund with big monied special interests. Oh the irony, eh?
A Flag or 10 in every conceivable shot. Especially the shot of the cop brutalizing a peaceful protester with a giant American Flag!!
Because of our lack of support and abject negligence, we have forced good politicians to grovel for ever more (thanx to RepubliCons and Citizens United) campaign funds. It's been all of the news!! So...??
http://occupywallst.org/forum/dems-reeps-alike/
Yes we all thought that 2008 was going to be a pivotal election, and real change was just around the corner. Look i am not saying that the repubs are not more to blame for setting up this corrupt system, I am just saying that they both acted in complicity...one overtly..the other insidiously to bring us to the unenviable place we are today. OWS has to remain an apolitical, defiant movement at least until we have the numbers. Then we will be able to stand and demand real change, as opposed to begging uselessly for it on our knees. On a side note, did you see my new thread?
I'm not the enemy. Political action is no threat to this movement.
When we can get over ourselves we will learn the value of inclusiveness and make real progress for the 99%.
And guess what? Because this movement is concerned about people and their well being in society it IS a political movement. Because it has at it's core how best to improve governance, it IS a political movement.
It IS!
You are only against reforming the existing corrupt political system. You appear to believe that voting or pressuring existing pols would be "hurting the movement"
We disagree.
Peace, & much success to you for all your postive efforts.
"Inclusiveness" does not include the same self serving, nefarious, people/groups who helped set up; benefited nefariously from; and perpetuated this corrupt system. By "political," I mean connecting with parties, or canidates, and you know it. This political system cannot be fixed from within. "We disagree": By the WE, i would suppose you mean you, and a handful of others on here. Very, very few in the streets would want to be included in your "we."
I would embrace a sea change revolution if it occured, Even if it seemed to be in the works.
Unfortunately the people pushing are perfectly happy doing it alone without including anyone who might help. It is almost like a spoiled child who will take his ball away crying "if you don't play my way, you can't play with my ball".
I don't present my self as a "revolutionary". I only state that I support a new form of govt from the ground up, horizontal, direct democracy. I don't support the armed, violent overthrow of the govt. And I certainly don't support excluding groups (not the dem party) with like minded progressive agenda from the protests, and demonstrations. We need more groups and people.
My comments on the Union sq rally did not state that we were connecting to the dem party. Only that it was a classic political rally. And it was.
I will vote. I encourage all progressives not to give up their right to vote. That is what the 1% want. There is an election in 14 weeks. I can't allow the far worse conservatives to take more power.
Working to improve the lives of the 99% bit by bit from the inside is valueable. It ain't the "deathknell" to the sacred movement. The few founding anarchists and their acolytes can continue with their pure efforts of recreating the govt and excluding the unpure. I'm not stopping them. Maybe their insistence on purity is part ofthe problem. Is it possible for you and the revered founders to make mistakes?. Are all the problems the fault of the unpure?
Most people who go to the large OWS rallies aren't interested in the purity of fellow protesters. They're interested in jobs, equity, debt relief, justice. And most are not puritan founders, the are progressive dem leaning voters.
We disagree. You seem to want me to stop my efforts, You label me subversive. Sounds like you want me to be purged. It's an old story. As always your efforts are about excluding possible supporters. I won't intimidated. Many agree with me. The puritan founders and their acolytes may not but they exclude all who don't agree with them. That is the best measure of who to follow.
Good luck with your positive efforts (if you even have any)
Addendum: You do not have to be an anarchist or a troll because you do not want to see this movement co-opted by the dems. Who said anything about excluding people who are dems from protesting at OWS events?......more obfuscating, and misrepresentation on your part. And certainly you would not consider yourself "pure" being in bed with one of those nasty political parties. Your twisted idea of "inclusiveness" has nothing to do with the success of this movement.
"I would embrace a sea change revolution if it occurred..." So from that I can deduce that you are willing to settle for minor changes that like I said can easily be over-turned. We are in the early stage of this revolution, and you seem to be determinded to put us on a course of failure, by embracing partisan politics. Is this revolution as far along as I would like it to be? No it isn't. These struggles never take a straight upward trajectory, especially where concensus building is such a vital part. Unlike you though, I will not give up, and 'settle' for what will come out of an alliance with one of the sordid parties that brought us to where we are now.
Yes most of us here are progressives, including me, who attended Obama's inauguration. I like most of them feel a deep sense of betrayal. The lull we may be experiencing now does not give you the license to subvert this movement into the democratic party. From the time you got here, 2-3 months ago, you have tried your damndest to turn this defiant movement into a docile political movement, and you have done so by trying to ostracize people who feel differently. Did you suddenly awake, and see the energy in this movement, and then say, 'I can bring this energy into the dem party, even if it lessens the chance for systemic change?" I think so.
I'm sorry I have not lived up to your superior measure. I know I am not pure. I ask only that you allow me another chance at pleasing the revered founders.
Oh great inquisitor I beseech you.
I will renounce all my unpure thoughts because I do not want to be purged. I will no longer associate with the unworthy ones. I will no longer urge others to do the same. I am not worthy of the great rtevered founders mercy.
I will urge all to reject those the revered founders have identified as the corrupted ones. Nothing matters but the movement.
Have mercy on my weak soul. I will submit to the movement and the revered founders, oh great inquisitor.
All hail the movement, the revered founders, and the great inquisitor Odin.
The "deep sense of betrayal" he speaks of is nothing more than petulance! Naive, immature, tantrum! Because the skinny black guy couldn't reverse 30+ years of entrenched RW corruption, under the greatest (unreported) RepubliCon sabotage attacks and insurgency in US history, all within his first two years in office. So they pouted and let RW crazy Teabags take over legislatures, local and federal! Nice work ass hats!!
Get out the Vote! Don't get Conned! 2010 Never EVER Again!!
lol That's more like it. Too bad it is your attempt at sarcasm, and you will be back in the political sewer, but I guess you never left.
I been at Zuccotti on and off from sep 'till the day the man let us back in. I've been to many meetings, rallies, demonstrations, protests. I was there when they joined up with labor for the huge May day rally, when I marched with the guitarmy and we TOOK 5th ave from the impotent police. Made a ponit to go to the Occupy Town Square in queens this past w/e 'cause you mentioned you'de gone. Didn't seem so radical to me. Good people, hung with the humanists. No one tried to silence me (like you) Everyone was polite and inclusive. Can you say inclusive. And many more. I've marching for 35 years.
Stop trying to purge the unpure. You ain't better than those of us still trying to improve the lives of the 99%.
Your the one who ain't got no street cred.
How can this not be a KingCon ploy to diffuse the efforts of the left?
He's a traitor. Foolish or diabolical, what difference does it make? I lean towards foolish. There's a softball for him.
Your supposed street credentials are streaming through NOW after weeks and weeks of having none, and me taking you to task for it, and your misrepresentation of them. Hmmmm?? The Occupy Town Square events are not intended to be radical, but of course you wouldn't know that. Nor would you know that some of the bright young people in it do jail support (meeting people that have been arrested for direct actions), or take part in protests themselves....this all after these events. Unlike you, they know we cannot vote our way out of this mess
"You ain't better than those of us still trying to improve the lives of the 99%." No, and "you ain't better than those....", who are shilling for the dems under the pretense of wanting this movement to succeed.
I encourage your good efforts (if you even have any) I have lent my body to the movement and been counted among them.
I'm won't pretend there isn't an existing system. I don't see it the same way as you. We CAN get change. I will work for that while supporting the bottom up approach as well.
I will not be silenced. I agree with OWS statement "we embrace all non violent tactics"
Peace
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You were here quite a while before you started to refer to your part in street protests, which leaves me suspect of you...especially since I do not know of any protester who is so convinced that allying ourselves with the dems is the way to go. And then after misrepresenting the protest at Union Square, and implying that we did have party alliances.....well I find it even more incredulous. You have provided yourself with the cover you need though to advance your partisan politics cruasade. I guess that is all that counts in your book.
One more time OWS allying itself with the dems is not a tactic, it is ACQUIESCING. Your value is in the dem party (and you do have value there) taking advantage of what people are doing here. OWS knows the separation of these two groups is essential to our success.
So I'm curious when you see all these different dem leaning groups coming together do you think they are doing so in the name of anarchy.? Do you think they won't vote for dems even though they are disappointed with dem performance.?
Check it out another great protest that was joined by other ciries as well.
Is that good?
http://occupywallst.org/forum/watch-live-riseupny-actions/
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No I do not think the different progressive groups coming together are doing so "in the name of anarchy." They have come together in the name of 'economic justice,' but the anarchists amongst us are the ones driving the defiance we need for this movement, and they are also valuble to our struggle in ways that we have discussed in the past. There is also no doubt that dems, and all of us will benefit from the left leaning group we both belong to much in the same way that we (you and I who do not consider ourselves anarchists) benefit from the anarchists in our movement. I do admit that this affiliation may be a quandary, as it may slow us down in recruiting, but it is a necessary one if we are going to sustain this movement.
And no, I could not see anyone, or would want anyone here to vote for Romney.
When I go to street demonstrations I assure you most are not anarchists who refuse to attempt reforming from within. They are dem leaning progressives who do want to work from within.
You are aware that the national Occupy meeting in philly this month consensed out the anarchists right.? I think your approach is great (except for the part that excludes certain people/tactics)
As OWS founding statement says we embrace all non violent tactics.
Good luck with all your positive efforts.
I would bet money that most of the OWS people in the 'streets' do not want to get in bed with the dems, or the political process at this point as you have implied. In the last few weeks, you have suddenly started putting forth your supposed credentials as being a revolutionary which i find amusing considering your all-out effort to subvert this movement, and ally us with the dems. It is a faux attempt to add credence to your argument. CONNECTING with the dems is your idea of 'inclusiveness', and a 'tactic' that we should implore. That is not a 'tactic. That is 'ACQUIESCING' to a corrupt party that aided, and abetted this corrupt system that has caused so many people so much pain, and misery...and will continue to do so if we follow your lead. And once again, all that will come out of that is piece-meal reform that will easily be over-turned by smart lobbyists.
You also purposely misrepresented what happened at Union Square in one of your comments saying it was "very politcal" leaving people to believe we had an alliance with the dems. You are purposely obfuscating all this to advance your argument, and I find it very disingenous. We, OWS does not have alliances with poitical parties, and there is good reason for it. And no I do not consider myself an anarchists either, but that does not mean that I...and many other people here.... do not recognize their value in this movement. Just don't pretend you are something that you are not, and you definitely are not a revolutionary in terms of wanting a sea change...a systemic change, or a revolutionary change in the way our political, and financial institutions are run.
It is not a nuance, but rather it is a big difference, and a necessary one that OWS pushes, and agitates from outside the system, while others not in OWS work from within. Attaching ourselves to canidates, political parties and the political system at this point will be our death knell if we truly want REAL change. It is that simple.
And for what it is worth, you are the one that is 'out of touch' with this movement, and by trying to make people like me feel that way is amusing to me, and that is coming all the way from AK., but only after trekking many miles in NYC.
Good Luck trying to subvert this movemenmt. You will need it...luck that is
.
But it remains that you expend your energy trying to stop efforts to improve the lives of the 99%.
You do nothing positive to help anyone. Your efforts to get OWS supporters to not work with Dems can only help the repubs.
So there!
No it does not, 'remain that I expend my energy trying to stop efforts to improve the lives of the 99%.' Whatever efforts OWS put into an alliance with the dems, and the fruit that may come out of it would be negated by pacifying this movement, having it co-opted, and lessening the chance for REAL reform. Cuddling up to the dems would not be a stepping-stone to the a sea change we so desparately need. Rather it would be the pacification of OWS, and hence the end of our chance for systemic change.This has to remain a defiant movement.
Undoubtedly some reform will come from the political system along the way, by OWS pushing, and agitating from the outside, but this will only be an attempt to satiate us in the hopes that REAL reform can be averted, and the corrupt elite can continue on screwing us in a multitude of ways.
"So there." lol
You really need to drop the narrow-minded anti-political bigotry!
By "WE" he probably means the many many caring and fighting progressives that want real reform and change (enacted) and for people to fight back in the Class War most of them are oblivious to, using the weapon our forefathers left for us, democracy (Votes). Active progressives and liberals who have been at this decades before last October.
Where have the progressives been in the last thirty years. With the exception of perhaps a handful of people in Congress including my former Congressman, now Senator Bernie Sanders....where have they been? Certainly not fighting for the average 'joe.' They have sold us out for $.
Sorry Odin - but I think you have a huge blind spot.
The blind spot in peoples perception is why I made this post:
http://occupywallst.org/forum/revolution-what-is-it-many-seem-to-be-confused-or-/
Food for thought.
Does "blind spot" include collusion with RepubliCons to sabotage real reform and change, and/or possible brain death?
The successful 20th century revolutions did not turn to the political process until they knew that they had the upper hand. Until then they focused on non-compliance, and resistance.
Timing and motive inaccuracies aside: Which resulted in elections of "politicians" (Dems and Prog) who better represented the people. G-e-t i-t??
OK, I get it, and at one time that was so. My parents were life-long dems, with the exception of voting for Eisenhower, but that is when the dems were ...well dems. OK, now who is the most duplicitous, and who are the dupes? 'Get it?' Both parties stink for the same, and different reasons.
The whole system stinks because we are a no-show and Bigs are an always show. Abandon your house for twenty years. Are you gonna come back and blame the house for being taken over??
How do "duplicity" and "dupes" apply? Especially when you mistakenly think Voting is the problem?
You have things soooo eschew and soooo reversed it's hard to even communicate with you. And you still can't tell me what your solution, your effecting action is!!
The parties serve their constituents. Cons serve (worship) big money. Dems serve Voters and when they flake (like we do) they have to grovel for funds to stay viable. Our system, our democracy, serves the participants. It's not a spectator sport. Bigs participate, we don't! What do you expect???
Here's our ace in the hole, democracy has a people bias!! But we have to VOTE!!!!
Yes, yes, by all means VOTE, but giving people the false belief that there will be a sea change by voting is foolish. Both parties are corrupt. The whole system has stunk for a long time. Yes in that time, we have to blame ourselves for voter apathy, and for not holding out elected officials accountable once in office. Whatever the reasons including a MSM that has lulled our sense of outrage, this now an entrenched corrupt system that has a lot to lose, and needs to be jolted with a lot more than voting. That is why I am in the defiant OWS, and I have no faith that we can vote our way out of this mess at this point or any time soon.
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You just wanna believe that "DEFIANCE" is going to save the world and that mere democratic participation is futile!! Voting is futile! You just can ONLY believe that, despite all facts and logic, no facts or logic will sway you, EVER!! And you corroborate your fact and logic proof belief by the fact that our neglected system is fucked up because people neglect to participate!!! That is classic self-fulfilling prophecy!!! You are just like the RepubliCons!!
Again, where do you get your info? How is just "defiance" going to, supposed to, effect any change whatsoever!!??? Where? How?
this calling other situations war is bullshit
It's late here. I'm going to bed. I'll answer you tomorrow. Remind me if I don't. Good Night
I've been watching these Occupy sites since they began late last year, and I welcomed their joining those of us who have been fighting the tyranny of a maniacal few in the 1% and their political arm, the RepubliCon Cult, for three decades and more. I was very excited by the attention OWS aroused in Americans (protests are nothing more than political advertisements to grab public attention), but that was quickly dashed by your inept Woodstock reenactments image failures.
I've heard many great complaints, but I've heard very few real solutions. And then there is this poison suicide pill of being "against elections." I doubt it is even legit. That's like going to a whorehouse just after clipping your genitals off!! It's stupid and you can't be serious. But some of you seem smart, so this makes me suspicious going into an election cycle ~ and advocating against elections! WTF!!!???
Could there be a more diabolical KingCon plot to steal an election???!!! They've tried every~Voter Suppression~thing else!!
So don't leave us to assume and suspect, tell us just how you intend to effect change???
Meanwhile, can you guys at least get some loud and clear signs telling/reminding America we are in a Class War and we are losing badly!! and hold the Woodstock. We have lots of change and reform to make and we could use the attention of the masses!!
I am not that close to the core members in OWS to influence them, although I know people who are, but I can assure you that they know WE ARE IN A CLASS WAR. This is a young people's movement, as they know that they have the most to lose, and no one that I have talked to is advocating partisan politics at this point. If that changed in the six weeks that I have been gone, I will be honest about it when i return back east. Good Night from AK.
You have good reason to be suspicious of people's motives on here, as I am too. I do not like being in the uncomfortable position that I am in, and being suspect, but like I said, I go with my conscience.,
Who said you were "close to the core members in OWS"?? I asked you how you effect change.
What do you mean "This is a young people's movement,..." there's an age requirement/exclusion?? What are you talking about, "as they know that they have the most to lose,"?? I have kids out there who just suffered 8 long and miserable fucking years of RepubliCon regression, rape and pillage!! I experienced the fucking RayGun "Revolution"!!! I suffered then, I suffer now, and my kids could suffer more if YOU DAMN FOOLS let the Cons dupe you into letting them back in!!! "Your position" ?? WTF!! Not important. Your petulance in 2010 has rendered you completely unreliable, but the Teabags thank you VERY MUCH!!!
I am empathetic to the pain, and misery that your family has suffered. I have kids out there in the world too, and a granddaughter as well. It is for her, more than anyone that I am here. Most of us here have experienced the negative effects of neoliberalism, or have seen our loved ones get screwed by the corrupt system we are in.
No this movement is not exclusionary, but the fact remains that the young people have more to lose for the simple fact that they will be here decades longer than me. They also have the energy, and determination to carry this through.
Image image image!!!
got it!
So since you're against "elections," how then do you propose to effect the reforms/changes/progress I assume you want made? Or are you just into bitching about stuff you don't like?
We're in a Class War, Shock Doctrine is the strategy, we need to fight back. Democracy is our weapon, it requires Votes to work. Your Ball!!
Crony capitalism has won out over democracy quite some time ago. It is only when we have enough people aware of what has been going on, and continues to, will we be able to enter the political process with our demands for a government that serves the people, not big monied special interests. And then getting them peeved enough so they too will be out in the streets. Until then, we will be the ones who are co-opted by the dems, having to settle for little change when we need a sea change. It is not about "purity", it's just that we have to remain the defiant movement that pushes, and agitates from the outside if we are going to be the victors. Like I have said before, I did not expect to be spending my retirement protesting in NYC, but I know that it is necessary.
"Your retirement"? I think I remember you saying that before. Your naivete conflicts with your claimed age. You should remember this term: Gobbledegook!! That's what you served. Where's the beef, the action, the means to effect?? You have nothing. Why do you do this? You don't remember what Nixon, Raygun and the Bushes did to this country??
Yes, I "remember what Nixon, Raygun and the Bushes did to this country." 'I also remember what Clinton, Obama, and countless others from both parties have done to this country in perpetuating, and advancing neoliberalism.' And for the record, i believe that W has had to have been the most vile, and dumbest of them all.
I'm curious where and how you get your information? Where and How?
Are you getting any of the old Air America Prog-Talk shows? Are you listening to NPR? NYT? MSM? Rush?
let's see. Truithdig (columnists Scheer and Hedges are good), Truthout, Adbusters (although they can go overboard), Democracy Now, Information Clearing House (the poster shadz uses this one a lot), BBC (not much), The Global Policy Forum (columnists from all over the world), Youtube on different subjects, Mother Jones, Rolling Stone (Mike Taibbi is great), The Village Voice (great article on the plight of college students recently), Al Jazeera, and NPR. All web sites except NPR> I also read the garbage that is in MSM (even conservative papers like the NY Post, as I believe it is necessary to know what they are thinking and saying), and of course that has to be taken with a good grain of salt. that's about it. I highly reccomend that you google up Chris Hedges-Brace Yourself. It is a 3 hour CSpan interview that is well worth watching. There is not much that I disagree on with him.
CH was on the last Bill Moyers and Company. His religiosity comes through too much.
While Hedges, and I believe Bill Moyers also went to seminary school, I do not see them as religious fanatics, but rather very moral people who have a deep understanding of the human condition, and of justice. . Bill Moyers should be cloned. I forgot to put him on that list I think. And it was Robert Scheer from Truthdig that I believe writes good columns, not the guy you mentioned. did you see Hedges 3 hour interview on Cspan yet?
Perfection exists only in myths, lies and delusion.
What the politically disgruntled are really having trouble with is the shamefully decrepit state of our political system caused by OUR neglect and Big $ exploitation. Fortunately, our forefathers made this system with the strongest, most resilient substance known to man: democracy! Just add Votes and watch it kick the Big $ bastards out of our government and start addressing OUR wants and needs!
But it will never be neat, efficient and pure; for that you must seek dictatorship/totalitarianism. Hey "vvv" try North Korea, you'll love it!
Don't let Big $ hog our government, get out the Vote! 2010 Never EVER Again!!
Wake Up! It's Class War, Shock Doctrine is the strategy, and we're losing!
Yes it is class war, and what got us to this sorry point in history, is what you pointed out. "The fault lies not in the stars, but in ourselves......" Shakespeare. This corrupt system has been in place for over thirty years, and it continues to get worse with every administration, dem or repub. 'They' control the media, and hence the thought process of most Americans. This corrupt system will not fall in the voting booth. They have too much to lose for that to happen. I am not saying that people shouldn't vote for dems or that they should be excluded from protests either, but this place, OWS has to remain an autonomous movement if it is going to succeed. I am not gaining any brownie points here on this forum by taking this stance, but I am not here for them. I follow my conscience. That's all.
+1 brownie point
Thanks...for you too... a BP.
You can't blame a bad crop on Obama when he has the whole GOP standing on his watering hose!! Are you blind??
I follow my country, democracy and justice. You don't speak for OWS! Mind your own futile business!
No I am not blind to the damage he has done. He should have stood up, and fought for us, and more recntly for the people of Wisconsin. A supportive tweet the night before the recall does not count.
Didn't you hear that Wisconsin's and Obama's people negotiated and decided it would be better for both parties to not get Obama involved??
Where do you get your information??
No i didn't hear that. I think I got that info on Scheer's column in Truthdig. I remember reading that Obama came within 50 miles of Wisconsin campaigning, but did not enter WI.
They decided it would be better.
"Le Show" Harry Schearer, NPR?
So, I did not say that I adhered to all their beliefs, only that i used them as a resource. Chris Hedges is closer to my way of thinking. Look we have a lot that we agree on, and one thing that I know of where neither one of us will probably ever agree on. Let's just leave it at that. I was up too late last night, so I'm going to sleep now. Good Night. I will respond to you in the morning. Thanks.
I think that religion has no place whatsoever in government, and when it is applied/combined it morphs into cult, like the RepubliCon Cult. So CH does not float my boat.
I agree, I do not like religious fanaticism mixed with politics, and intolerance, of any stripe.
The repubs proudly trumpet the conservative policies that the 1% plutocrats.
Some dems have betrayed progressive principles, but most do not. Dems can be dragged back from the right and made to serve the 99%
Elect progressives, Vote out pro plutocrat republicans
The repubs proudly trumpet the conservative policies that the 1% plutocrats.
Some dems have betrayed progressive principles, but most do not. Dems can be dragged back from the right and made to serve the 99%
Elect progressives, Vote out pro plutocrat republicans
Perhaps,But draged back to what.The same failed institutions in place?All great social movements go to the Democratic party and than die a slow but sure death.Maybe before it is to late the young people will try system change.Not just replacing one party hack with another.
We must build and support a strong progressive party. Either Dems or a new govt, from the ground up, horizontal, direct democracy. Whichever comes about will get no where if progressives go back to sleep and fails to consistently support them with protests and real involvment.
The Dems can be better but not without the people being actively involved. We are the key. We are responsible for the failures of our govt. I on'y just push the blame on others.
I hope you don't think you are innocent? Do you think everything is supposed to be done for you? C'mon we can't be the stereotypical lazy suburban american with the healthy sense of entitlement.
We gotta do the work. Can't depend on politcians alone.
I think that It is not the case of a hand out but that of a sell out!I know the conservative mantra is that people do not work hard enough.And that is hog wash.As far as being done for me ,I do for myself.What you must do is build a system that is not dependent or centerd on greed.
Agreed. People have to be involved. Elect progressives, keep there feet to the fire.
Vote out conservative pro plutocrats.
RepubliCons are owned by the Big $ Kings who detest our government and especially democracy, so they do everything in their power to foul it up, and then speciously/hypocritically wail about how awful government is. Ironically/hypocritically Cons inflate government and apply it more intrusively (dictatorially) on the public.
They also own MSM, have a dedicated propaganda network (Fox Lies), and broadcast RW Hate Speech 24/7/365/every city; consequently We Americans have to lowest Voter turnout while Big $ has the greatest. That's why they get their way ~ the squeaky wheel gets all the grease.
Unfortunately, in order to operate in this political aberration (created by our neglect) Dems have to scrounge for money. And you get dirty when you wrestle with pigs.
There is no perfection!!! No perfect politician, politic, Voter or non-Voter. There is, though, really fucking shitty (KingCons) and worlds better (Dems). Third parties would be great, and the way we get them is Instant Runoff Elections, but Cons will stop at nothing to keep this from happening. They are at their criminal limit stealing (suppressing) Two-Party elections, three and four IRE-viable parties would be their death nil.
The Democratic Party is a clearinghouse for politicians who still believe, more or less, in democracy, encompassing conservatives, liberals, progressives and generally work for the people (with insufficient support from us). Dems don't suppress the Vote.
RepubliCons have devolved into a cult and their Charlie Manson is Big $ (with all the support their Citizens United SCOTUS doesn't disclose). Cons are conducting a rampant Voter Suppression Campaign right now, at great expense, because they are afraid of what Dems and We People might do to foil their Shock Doctrine strategy in their 30+ year Class War against the 99%!!! Which, because we are mostly oblivious to, we are losing!! Wake up, People!!
Let go of the political "perfection and purity," it's fantasy. Democracy is messy and dirty, that's reality. But it the tool our forefathers established for us to fend off the tyranny we are facing in this Class War.
Get out the Vote! Don't be Conned! 2010 Never EVER Again!!
What sucks is the disgusting condition of our democracy caused by our neglect and Big $ exploitation!
People who don't Vote but bitch about government should be publicly bitch slapped!
If Voting for one party over another didn't make any difference, there would be no Citizens United, rampant Voter Suppression Campaigns, Super Pacs, and Big $ supporters for RepubliCons! Wake Up!
It's Class War and We're losing!! Get out the Vote!!
People who don't bitch or protest about Diebold voting machines will lose their vote to a corporation that deals directly with the banks and who now can program the machines that count your vote. Everyone in the country can vote and all it takes is a few more (changed or programmed votes) to turn the election into a sham.
All Voter suppression criminals should get the death penalty, just like treason.
Get out the vote and get out of the party! Vote for integrity! Vote for honesty! Vote for decency! Vote for the person!
What's Sun City near? Lancaster? I'm thinking of CA City. I'm a native CA. Can't remember Sun.
It's north of Temecula.
No help.
Click on my username, it will show a map.
Bill Moyers Makes It Clear: Requiring An ID Is Voter Suppression And Unconstitutional
The problem is that the 99% still are not represented. It is a fiction to believe that the Democrats represent us. That is not to say there is no difference between the two parties - clearly Republicans have sold their souls entirely. But what Democrats stand up to corporate America anymore? So, once Democrats are elected, if ever, they must be held to account. Our task will not finish with a change of party. We must eventually redefine what corporations are and how they are allowed to operate. They should be considered tools to accomplish public purposes rather than methods to enrich the 1%.
The squeaky wheel gets all the grease. Big $ turns out for every election (highest), We People don't turnout (lowest). What do you expect?
Democracy is not a spectator sport!
Show up! Get out the Vote! Don't let the Voted be Conned!!
We have been in a class war for all of human history. the uppermost class have excelerated the war for at least 30 years. They are squealing class war (and have their republican puppets squealing it) because they fucked up big time in 2008 (and again with the recent libor scandal) and they are trying to stanch the righteous tide against them.
Don't listen to the pro plutocrat repubs. Vote them out.
Elect progressives
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You are fortunate. Vt is a great state.
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I give you an up vote as I have done frequently before.
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legalized med marijuana?
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This prohibition on pot is far worse than the Prohibition on Alcohol and alcohol is damaging, and second only to tobacco for deadliness, which are both legal.
This prohibition on pot is a filthy scheme perpetuated by dirty money and fear of retribution. And it has gone on far too long. It needs to be legalized "retro-actively," taxed and regulated, with reparations to the wrongly convicted. http://www.leap.cc/
I would say it is also part of the Class War we are losing!!
Agree 100%. A poor minority college student who gets a pot conviction, will lose fed student aid, be passed over for jobs, can be passed over on good housing, and in some cases lose their right to vote.
It destroys lives. The laws are enforced disproportionately against minorities. The harsh drugs laws were implemented just a few years after the voting rights laws went into affect.
It's is insidious.
I wasn't aware of the college student ramifications. Makes total and horrific sense. I would be one angry dad if that happened to one of my kids!
http://www.leap.cc/
Definitely part of the Shock Doctrine Class War we are mostly oblivious to, and losing!
It's got to change. We almost had a small change in nys but repubs in state senate killed it.
NY S? Schools?
Repub controlled New york State Senate blocked Gov effort to change pot possession (ounce) to a ticket rather than conviction
Thanks to pouting Dems in 2010?
I do listen to NPR. You recommended norman goldman. Thx.
For decades I was an NPR devotee. But as the RepubliCons in Congress kept going Right off the fascist cliff more and more and pulling NPR and PBS with them, I got completely fed up with their bland, overly conservative programing, content and analysis. Suck-Up Juan Williams and the condescendingly conservative JERK (Ira Flatow? ?-Glass?) that took his place were the last straws.
Then Air America came in to save the day! So nice! so refreshing! Intelligent, vigorous, progressive liberals unrestrained by fascist Con restrictions, telling the damn truth just as dirty as filthy RepubliCons really are!! Life saving!! But they fumbled the business ball. Fortunately most of the talent still broadcasts on various Radio stations, Current TV, On-Line- Station websites, iHeartRadio, satellite- SiriousXM, Pod-casts, ect. Here's my local station: http://www.620kpoj.com/main.html
Gotta throw NPR under the bus, too neutered and conservative! I worry about how the people on this board get their info. Really worry!!
I think most OWS supporters are pretty well informed. Of course the conservative pro 1% plutocrat shills are misinformed, uninformed, or just plain ignorant and evil.
But current tv is great, Air America was also. I'll check out yours.
Sorry, lots of low information posters here. It can be changed.
The righties on here are walking dead, Zombies, American suicide bombers, Hillbilly Taliban. Did you know they have RW summer camps for Zombie-Youth!!?? Thom Hartman briefly covered that a couple years back.
Randi Rhodes was on AA! Gotta get some Randi!! Best website and board. The big problem with Prog-Talk is commercial radio, hard to adjust to. But I think it's better than NPR contribution drives!
Actually the NYSenate has been repub a long time. lotta upstate red areas and unfair gerrymandering that takes power from the cities and moves it to the suburbs
I think I've heard a little about that.
Do you listen to Prog-Talk out there? Everybody should! Lot's of good info you don't get on MSM or NPR, etc.
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In our "free market" capitalism economy competition is extinguished, freely and openly and unconditionally. That's the "free and open market" way. Pot makes paper, oil, food, rope, textile, did I mention oil? In the movie that should have won the 2007 Oscars, There Will Be Blood, we are treated to a very evil maniacal view of the beginning and prophetic mindset of Big Oil. Must have pissed them off that it ever got made... that way. Hence no Oscar ~ Oil has major interests in the Motion Picture Industry. That hemp and great pot are totally different creatures are merely facts, so hemp is a dangerous DRUG!! End of story!
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When I was a kid in Burbank, after the cactus water experiment hospital emergency, when the winds kicked up and replaced the choking smog with dust, the tumbleweeds came out. They took over the streets. We tied bandanas on our faces and chased the fuckers all over the neighborhood. It was hilarious cacophonous chaos. In the morning, dust settled, smog still at bay, with extreme prejudice we executed the freakish balls with our boots for crimes we are probably still unsure of. Satisfied nonetheless.
Pot grows anywhere, yet another reason to declare it a vicious and intolerable danger to society.
In Japan, farms are being abandoned by the youth, making them agronomical seniorities.
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House comic for the Class War Komidy Depot in Beaverton, OR.
Cool. I was actually curious about whether VT had legalized it.
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yes the illegality certainly creates much violent crime (like prohibition) The worst thing about harsh drug laws is their use as a way to continue the oppression of minorities. Once you get a drug record you can't get college aid, employers pass you over, and you can easily find your self in jail for a long time.
Another tool/weapon in the Class War we are losing!
Thx for the positive comments. mostly I get nasty vicious responses (but truth be told I mostly come here to challenge the repub plants I find so....) So it;s always good to find supportive comrades.
Not everyone thinks we should support dems, I think dems can be dragged back from the right, and made to serve the 99%.
It's the only way, until the recreated bottom up, horizontal, direct democracy system emerges anyway. Which I will support as soon as they get consensus on it.
No prob, sorry you get flack. I read many many more replies and posts than I reply to, so when you get shit from a Zombie it just means that you threaten it. Which is good. We have PMed many times, I'm the one who gets banned all the time. Yes, we don't want Cons in Gov and until we get Instant Runoff Elections, third parties are a dream. BUT once we get them, say goodbye to Cons, they can't steal or suppress multiple party elections.
The prob with Dems is neglect. The prob with our political system is our neglect and Big $ exploitation. With the lowest Voter turnout and the highest Big $ turnout, we are lucky to even be drawing breath. Get out the Votes and watch democracy kick Big $ Kings and their RepubliCon employees (KingCons) out of our gov!! Direct democracy will never happen, it will remain representative democracy until long after we're dead, if not forever.
Your probably right about direct democracy but there is some possibility that a city council level experiment might be initiated.
In any event, there is a good amount of supporters for the concept and I make every effort to support all non violent tactics. I guess I do not support disengaging (not voting) as a tactic, but otherwise.
So I agree about dems neglect and our neglect. Nothng will change without a real movement that threatens politicians at the voting booth.
Solidarity
Ancient Greece had it, and people HAD to take turns being senators and various other officials in Gov. Enormously more high maintenance compared to our current goof off system.
Public bitch slapping for non-Voters sounds appealing to me. Maybe a show, like America's Got Flakes.
Yes public square humiliation. Excellent. You might be joking but I think it could work.
Please, don't drag the noble Pelicans' name through the GOP sewer! Put aside that we might be Dems and have an apoplectic aversion to be organized or cooperate, let's Unite behind the great Norman Goldman's label "RepubliCons"!! It's so much more appropriate and descriptive and "Cons."
When we get Instant Runoff Ellections, making third parties viable, Cons won't be able to steal elections, THEN Cons will be "done." One more reason to get rid of Cons this November 6th!
http://normangoldman.com/listen/
and everyone needs Randi: http://www.randirhodes.com/main.html
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I don't think you're suggesting it's an acronym, you seem to be aggrandizing a play on the dreaded RepubliCon label by way of "repellant" and, inadvertently, Pelicans. I don't get the PNAC connection but this is my all night on OWS night.
Do you remember the oil spills in So-Cal during the 70s, just after, or during, the DDT poisoning of the water that was wiping out everything?? I was one of the schmucks cleaning what few Pelicans we had left. At the time we thought we were saving the species. They are a great and noble animal, and doing that gave me a deep appreciation for these ancient creatures. If you watch them gliding and skimming the ocean snatching fish into that ever-expanding gullet it's a wonder to behold and an amazing feat they are thriving today. I feel partially responsible for that. If there's not an acronym, can we please not associate them with one of life's lowest and contemptible biological aberrations: Cons??
Check out Norman's usage, it's quite appealing. And you get that satisfying "Con" abbreviation. Maybe you don't get Prog-talk in VT? It's on line! Check out Randi, too. She has a great homework page and board!!
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Please find it in your heart to take my plea into consideration. Meanwhile Norman and Randi! Do you get them?
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Man, do I envy you for not having yet experienced two of the major forces in Prog-Talk radio. Surly you had/got/received Air America Radio!? Well it still exists independently. There are over a dozen hosts, Randi (my favorite) and Norman are two of the best. Now you get to hear them for the first time, how fun is that!! Randi and Norman are on at the same time, afternoon, my station staggers them. http://www.iheart.com/live/1965/, but there are many other options.
Can't believe you never heard of them. If you're used to NPR, it's much different. TV-like. Commercials, bad ones. But no NPR donation drives, or inane mediocrity.
Drop the bird, go with the Con!
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Lots of practice.
Let me know if you manage to hear them, I think you can see them too, if you get the telecast.
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Not cable, on line. Directly or through Iheartradio.
5%? Just like minorities in Vermont.
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It is only class warfare when we fight back - unknown OWS protester.
Geo, do you have a few minutes to discuss at https://docs.google.com/document/d/1O6Fdmy-Cz9cfkaUBLx8cHezJP956ykwdBDFXttddd3w/edit ?
class warfare is a poor description
real warfare involves killing people and taking property
When the banks foreclose on the elderly, disabled, or recently unemployed joe average, and healthcare companies fail to pay for needed medical treatments like costly cancer treatments, don't think that property isn't being taken or people aren't dying.
people are not killing each other
By far the vast majority of the killing has been from the top down, so maybe in that sense you're right... that could change.
and if the killing were stopped,
the top would have difficulty suppressing the others
Hence they wage war against the lower class
no.
the US could stop dropping bombs today
why has it not done this?
Because we as a people haven't demanded it. It took 8 years of street protests to end Vietnam. Where are the antiwar protests of today?
on the internet
it's become a question of a non-responsiveness government
and media
on the internet
It appears that tactic isn't working.
it's become a question of a non-responsiveness government and media
Which is why I strongly favor street action and civil disobedience. It's difficult to ignore shutting down a city with a major protest. Do that many times and the powers that be get scared.
I believe in street protest education outreach awareness building.
I believe in internet/social media protest education outreach awareness building.
I believe in not limiting communication education outreach.
we don't want them scared
we want control of our lives
They become scared when they believe that they have lost control. Yes, we want them scared, for that means we have gained control. It's at this point that communication begins, demands get listened to.
when someone tells where I can get a physical for free in san diego,
I will believe we are in control
We aren't anywhere near there yet. We are not in control, they are not scared. It's going to be a long fight. Nobody just gives away control.
Don't hold your breath waiting. it could lead to other complications.
I do not agree to a long fight
We will get conrol when they become scared, not before.
sort the ol reversal
they control with fear . we control with fear
Yep, I think that is the only way it can be, at least in the beginning.
I believe in street protest education outreach awareness building.
I believe in internet/social media protest education outreach awareness building.
I believe in not limiting communication education outreach.
good call
Thank you.
Slowly but surely, it takes time weening the Bigs off a good juicy scam.
do you even know what ur talking about?
1.5 million violent crimes per year, that includes killing, FYI.
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I love ya Matt, but what makes you think they're not?
It's Class War! Wake up!
Actually geo is correct. Its not warfare when only one side does the maiming, killing, and property taking. It takes two sides to make a war. Check out the definition of war in the dictionary.
By the way, that is the same rational Obama used when he committed U.S. military resources to decimate Libya with out resorting to Congress. Dirty huh!
It's Shock Doctrine the crazy RW's strategic plan in the Class War!!
Get out the Vote! Don't be Conned! 2010 Never EVER Again!!
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Newt's not all bad. Even he attacked Mitt as a vulture capitalist in the primaries. Perry did too. It didn't work in the primary though. Because the Republican's are The Party of Vulture Capitalism. It's like trying to attack vampires with blood. Instead of repelling them, they just eat it up.
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Oh I thoroughly enjoyed watching Newt bash Mitt around. I thoroughly enjoy watching anyone bash Mitt around.
I can't wait until the Ryan/Romney budget hits the fan. And those sociopaths have to justify giving $295M tax assistance to millionaires while they subject the rest of the country to their homicidal austerity programs.
The Ryan/Romney budget in focus groups - "struck those voters as so cartoonishly evil that they found the charge implausible."
http://www.democracycorps.com/National-Surveys/serious-attack-on-ryan-budget-takes-toll-on-mitt-romney/
http://maddowblog.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/07/09/12641260-why-focus-groups-incredulity-matters?lite
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This is a rhetorical phrase to reveal the hypocrisy of the KingCons who wage the Class War using Shock Doctrine strategy, and speciously cry "Class War" when WE the People fight back.
Some dummies think it is a literal definition! Not a literal definition!!
Wake up! The Class War is on and WE are losing!
Democracy is the weapon our Forefathers left us to fight this very kind of feudalistic tyranny!
Big $ (todays Kings) turnout for every election, We People don't. That's why they get their way. The squeaky wheel gets all the grease.
Get out the Vote! Don't be Conned! 2010 Never EVER Again!!
When people die because of policies brought about by the upper classes to maintain their position, it is no longer rhetorical.
Right!
The Class War kills people everyday. It's being waged by a few in the 1% Kings via their RepubliCon foot soldiers, against the 99%. Their strategy is Shock Doctrine. And when we 99% People fight back the KingCons speciously cry "Class Warfare!"
Hence, several months ago I posted: "It's only class warfare when we fight back." It's sarcasm. Get it?? It has always been Class Warfare since they started some 30 years ago. We are just now catching on and fighting back. So NOW they cry! And it's not just "maintaining position," it's rape, pillage and wage-slave exploitation!!!
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And He returns in style - Great Post - Really liked the opening passage.
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here is my july 4th post
http://occupywallst.org/forum/its-july-4th-a-time-for-americans-to-gather-around/
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good to see you back on the site, I had gone back and read some of your posts/comments as people were asking about you when I came here as my GA started to "wind down" but ideals are the most dangerous to the 1%, this is a long battle, hope you check out my profile, I think people should be willing to take a stand and say so
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The problem is simple really, all the people with micorphones are part of the 1%. Tech may help with that, if a few can tell a few and so on, they will not be able to stop truth, it has a life of it's own.
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I'm still smoking from the battles I fought over that ridiculous witch hunt (notice how quickly they dropped the "Fast and Furious" hysterics). Only to be rejoined by the frenzy patriotic of 9-11. Patriotism sure went out of vogue fast when offshoring became in. RepubliCon treason then and RepubliCon treason now! Only our ignorance and crab mentality keeps RepubliCons GITMO free! Contrived, designed and effected by Shock Doctrine strategy in this barely noticed War on Class, which we are into 30+ years of losing!!!!!!
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OK, often called crabs in a pot or crabs in a bucket or barrel. When they crawl up and try to get out, the other crabs grab them and pull them back in. Wiki it, loads of sociopolitical connotations. The point: don't look down or at each other, in class war, look UP!
It also means that no matter how hard people try to get good, honest people and choices into the conversation, the masses just drag them back into the D/R bucket.
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I believe anyone with their eyes open have probably had the thought if not actually spoken that same opinion.
Yeah I saw that ad it really should find air time. I think I twittered it. Probably should do that again.
Nice article.
Twittered.
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If so we need more {:-])
sure ya are, marshmellow.
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Is feudalism the natural order of things? Somtime during the 20th century capitalism was captured by banking feudalism.
Max Keiser on GM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Jpb1e32KRY&feature=related
war war war
let's blur it's definition
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bye
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Agreed Zen.
I can't figure it out, to be honest, it defies all reason. I mean, the American people, some of the most stubborn people there are, people who really believe in freedom, patriots born of a revolution, whose governmental system as defined by the Constitution, which is copied by many other nations around the world... Americans, of all people on this Earth, are actually complacent enough to let their elections be bought by the highest bidder.
I never would have believed it would be so easy: that the American people would just sit like sheep and let their freedoms be taken away from them. Sure, they might loot the economy, but be damned if they'll take your guns. Oh, but... uh... but the ability to spend billions of unreported funds from unknown sources to manipulate our electoral system is apparently not worth the American people's time and energy to protest. We should ALL be screaming at the top of our lungs. I just sit incredulous at times and wonder if I dreamed up my whole sense of what America is supposed to be about.
On top of that, when you consider that these same maniacal people, who would prefer to remain secret, the ones who are BUYING your vote, are also buying your candidate. This annointed candidate must stand against abortions, gay rights, religious freedom. All efforts must be made toward lowering taxes on the rich, raising money from the middle class and poor, and also reducing government oversight of pretty much every aspect of corporate business from the assembly line to the Swiss bank accounts. All this with the overall goal of reducing the government, except the military and police state, which must be expanded, to protect the American people from... the American people not involved in white collar crime. Oh, and immigrants, even the kids. Also, standing opposed to health care coverage for 2/3 of the nation, lowering investment in education, avoiding investment in infrastructure, and actively fighting against alternative energy development. No substantive discussion during the campaign of any of these topics will be undertaken except under tightly controlled circumstances, with a carefully chosen audience, and any journalist who asks anything more than a softball question will be red listed. Naturally, fund raisers are closed door events, and any speeches or conversations among donors and candidates are most certainly not to be bandied about publicly.
Oh yeah, and in a time of great financial crisis, party politics will trump all other considerations that might improve the lot of the American people.
It's insane. I mean... Regardless if you're conservative, liberal, or some other option... Think about who's planning on jerking you around the hardest, and it's impossible to deny that Mitt Romney is just a puppet chosen to go along with whatever agenda is presented to him by his handlers, who are nothing more than a bunch of rich plutocrats who would rather remain secret and who are not legally bound to disclose any of their business dealings, or private agendas, whether for good, bad, or otherwise.
Most importantly, we won't discuss any of these topics. All these billions being spent on advertizing will not actually educate the voter.
Is this even still America?
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Unfortunately, it is still America , but by name only.
Welcome back.
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The thought that this nation may be horribly corrupted is somehting many are not willing to still deal with....just look how they justify melting two cities in Japan into the ground.
People cant phathom that their country is corrupted, its how govs can drag them to war so easily;
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Those very same credit unions then pushed 40million worth of loans of bullshit money on the people....you would know this if you particiapted in that action, which you obviously didnt.
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It is your house. It sure as hell isnt ours. Have fun while the population smashes the shit out of it. The R house next door is already on fire.
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Too much listning to the Obimination and not enough learning about what it takes to become "evil rich and wealthy" is what's creating "class warfare".
Now, if you don't want to do that then live the life you want and let other fellow Americans live the life they want.
If what you do in your life is disagreable with what others to with their life then you need to move to a country that you think would be better suited for you.
This country was founded on "capitalism" and not "wealth envy".
Granted the government needs to be straightend out when it comes to handing out free money along with regulations that would bring more jobs back to this country.
But your bickering and whining isn't going to solve the problem - the voting booth is where the problem will be solved along with protesting on the doorsteps of our representatives to get action.
How hard is that to understand?
And where is capitalism mentioned in the US Constitution and Declaration of Independence?
Wikipedia – The period between the sixteenth and eighteenth centuries is commonly described as mercantilism. This period, the Age of Discovery, was associated with geographic exploration being exploited by merchant overseas traders, especially from England and the Low Countries; the European colonization of the Americas; and the rapid growth in overseas trade. Mercantilism was a system of trade for profit, although commodities were still largely produced by non-capitalist production methods. While some scholars see mercantilism as the earliest stage of capitalism, others argue that capitalism did not emerge until later. For example, Karl Polanyi, noted that "mercantilism, with all its tendency toward commercialization, never attacked the safeguards which protected [the] two basic elements of production—labor and land—from becoming the elements of commerce"; thus mercantilist attitudes towards economic regulation were closer to feudalist attitudes, "they disagreed only on the methods of regulation." Moreover Polanyi argued that the hallmark of capitalism is the establishment of generalized markets for what he referred to as the "fictitious commodities": land, labor, and money. Accordingly, "not until 1834 was a competitive labor market established in England, hence industrial capitalism as a social system cannot be said to have existed before that date."
Capitalism History
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalism#History
Capitalism is defined as an economic and political system in which a country's trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit. Wikipedia explains further,
Capitalism is an economic system that is based on private ownership of the means of production and the creation of goods or services for profit. Competitive markets, wage labor, capital accumulation, voluntary exchange, and personal finance are also considered capitalistic. There are multiple variants of capitalism, including laissez-faire, mixed economies, and state capitalism. Capitalism is considered to have applied in a variety of historical cases, varying in time, geography, politics, and culture. There is general agreement that capitalism became dominant in the Western world following the demise of feudalism.
Capitalism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalism
Capitalism rising out of feudalism would seem consistent with the political structures of the 16th through 18th centuries and revolutions in United Kingdom, United States and France. What is called capitalism was really mercantilism. Industrial capitalism didn't exist until 1834. Feudalism as the founding Fathers knew it was abandoned over two centuries ago. It should be obvious that private owner of the means of production for profit doesn’t work in an industrialized society. Simply because the private owners are interested only in profits and not in providing for the common defense, general welfare, etc.
The preamble to the Constitution says –
We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
US Constitution
http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charters/constitution_transcript.html
Immediately we see corporations and capitalists could not have possibly written this.
Everyone should know that “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.—” is a founding principle of our country. Also in the Declaration it is said,” all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed.”
Declaration of Independence
http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charters/declaration_transcript.html
Acknowledging that mercantilism was the prevailing economic system during the colonial period then outsourcing jobs, and off-shoring manufacturing from our country would be contrary to what the founding fathers had in mind. The current recession and unemployment is directly related to profits, private ownership, deregulation at the expense of everything important to the foundation of this country.
The New Deal
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRw-OQYDe2M&feature=related
Usury had been prohibited for centuries. Under capitalism and modern free market interest rates are unregulated. The practice of usury is endemic throughout the financial sector and is an area where strong reforms that make economic sense instead of obscene profiteering would provide huge measures of economic relief to ordinary people. Capitalism has created unsustainable debt for future generations. according to the Declaration of Independence, capitalism should be abolished.
US usury
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usury#Usury_statutes_in_the_United_States
Capitalism is just one of many forms of an economy, that's all!!!
Democracy is OUR form of government!!!
It's also our defense against the very tyranny we are experiencing in this 30+ year long Class War conducted by a maniacal few in the 1% and executed by their political foot soldiers, the RepubliCon Cult! Their Warfare strategy is Shock Doctrine!
Democracy is our defense, all it needs is OUR VOTES!!!!
The rhetoric of class warfare predates Obama by at least two years. Unless you believe Warren Buffet was just laying the ground work for Obama's candidacy.
I'd say class antagonism is part of the American fabric, going back to at least the Gilded age. In fact, isn't the rhetoric of "welfare mamas" pretty class antagonistic? But of course, It's only a bad thing when the peasants pick up and use the rhetoric. huh?
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I disagree - I have never heard so much "class warfare" with regard to what people have as I have with this president.
Years ago people used to congratulate people they knew when they got a promotion or a better job.
Not so today - the vast majoriy of people in todays society especially the younger generation have been taught to envy people who succede.
And the reason for this is because that is what's been taught by our government schools along with the thinking that everyone should have whatever they want from the day they graduate from college and it's the governments job to provide it for them.
You should read "The People's History of the United State of America" and get your head out of right wing rags. Maybe that is how the Main Stream perceives it and how the Right wing spins it, but that is not truly the case. Remember, television is not reality. And to your last paragraph, it is equality of opportunity that gov'ts try to provide. Equality period, is not a goal that has ever been articulated or attempted to be enforced by gov't. That would just be un American.
The rich exist because the poor are plentiful. And the richer the rich are the more poverty proliferates. I know you can't grasp what I say, but a pie can only be cut with what is on the table, and the bigger the slice that is taken from the top, the smaller the slice is for everyone else.
End Class Antagonism. Give a sustainable slice to those who do all the work.
Thank you!
But instead of saying "give" say "stop" stealing, hoarding and exploiting the wealth, commons and toil of American's and America.
But this would be like asking the enemy to quit shooting.
Wake up People, it's Class War and We're oblivious!
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Tell that tothe Obimination that "equality is not a goal that has ever been articulated or attempted to be enforced by government" with his "class envy" hype.
All that comes out of his mouth is "wealth distribution"
Tell me something - where is it written that a person doesn't have the opportunity to become wealthy in this country?
You seem to focus on the "rich". Well, a lot of "rich" people started out owning their own business. So, are these people also evil?
I doubt you have ever been involved in owning a business nor runing one for if you have, your outlook towards the "evil rich" and how they exist because of the poor" would be completely different.
Reading a "book" doesn't make one knowledgeable of all facts - experience does.
I never said they were evil. That is just dunderheaded thinking. Class antagonism, or so I believe, is just a natural part of Capitalism, or maybe the human condition in general.
Why shouldn't this topic be fair game in a political discussion? And, why is it almost sacrilegious to hold a portion of our population accountable?
If you believe that pointing out flaws and abuses of one portion of society tantamount to proclaiming them evil, than I wounder how you feel about the act of pointing to the high incarceration rate of working class people. Are they evil. Are evil people the only people we hold accountable?
That thinking just seems counter productive to class dialog. The same thing, I believe, can be said About people who find the rich infallible and victimized.
The book i suggested that you read is just our history from a perspective that is not always trumpeted. I by no means would suggest that it is the perception of Truth, but it is an American perspective none the lease. I'd add that the people who are remembered in Howard Zinn's book have just as much right to air their grievances about the policies and beneficiaries of currant governmental policies.
The part of your argument that I'm detesting is where you believe the majority of Americans used to rally, rant and rave for those who control our body politic, hence our assets and economy. That sentiment you embrace is a fictional construct created to justify worker exploitation.
It has been my understanding that capitalism is championed by most because of its promise to lift all boats. If you look back through history, at least as far back as the '50s, it seems that that assumption is quickly loosing its validity.
Politics is an act of negotiation between different portions of society. There is no good or bad, only perceived injustice. The rich are just people like the working class and the middle class. Labor, like the middle class Tea Party, and the upper class two party duopoly, should have a seat at the table too.
Idiot Con-Zombie Troll!
Stop stealing, hoarding and exploiting the wealth, commons and toil of American's and America!
That's Bull Shit! Pure RepubliCon taking points! God I wish we could scrape you Zombies off of our country like dog shit off a shoe!
You truly don't deserve to live in this country. A true Class War minion.
The "class warfare" you refer to is in fact directed at those who unfairly enrich themselves at the peoples expense.
Congressional Budget Office finds that, between 1979 and 2007, income grew by:
275 percent for the top 1 percent of households,
65 percent for the next 19 percent,
Just under 40 percent for the next 60 percent, and
18 percent for the bottom 20 percent.
http://www.cbo.gov/publication/42729
It seems the "ivy league schools" are the ones that are teaching that just the 1% "should have whatever they want from the day they graduate from college and it's the governments job to provide it for them."
Excellent!!
Spread the word!!
We're in a Class War and most of us are oblivious!!
Use the weapon the forefathers left us to fight this tyranny, democracy, VOTE!!!
Let me just make this quick comment: You are a cretinous TROLL and dead wrong!
building bombs 'til bunkers boil
getting paid for shell filled toil
if I am to work tomorrow
lobe the load on foreign soil
yep US only pays 41% of the total world military budget
World Military budget in Billions (percent total) by Nation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_expenditures
Global Arms Sales By Supplier Nations
39% United States
18% Russia
8% France
7% United Kingdom
5% Germany
3% China
3% Italy
11% Other European
5% Others
http://www.globalissues.org/article/74/the-arms-trade-is-big-business#GlobalArmsSalesBySupplierNations
TOP 10 Arms Produces
Notes: An S denotes a subsidiary company. A dash (–) indicates that the company did not rank among the SIPRI Top 100 for 2009
http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2012/mar/02/arms-sales-top-100-producers
Eisenhower: guns as theft / the “cross of iron” speech
Dwight D. Eisenhower, whose two terms as president ended 50 years ago next week, had a negative view of the consequences of warfare, which he had seen close up as highest-ranking US military commander.
He famously said in 1953:
…Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed.
This world in arms in not spending money alone.
It is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children.
The cost of one modern heavy bomber is this: a modern brick school in more than 30 cities.
It is two electric power plants, each serving a town of 60,000 population.
It is two fine, fully equipped hospitals.
It is some 50 miles of concrete highway.
We pay for a single fighter with a half million bushels of wheat.
We pay for a single destroyer with new homes that could have housed more than 8,000 people.
This, I repeat, is the best way of life to be found on the road the world has been taking.
This is not a way of life at all, in any true sense. Under the cloud of threatening war, it is humanity hanging from a cross of iron….
–Address by President Dwight D. Eisenhower “The Chance for Peace” delivered before the American Society of Newspaper Editors, April 16,1953. Text from Information Clearing House
[Welcome to the club, Mat...]
Excellent post! To put today's cost in perspective. An F-22 jet costs 40 million bushels of wheat.
The newbies think it's a new thing Obama started.
Wow... those stats kinda put it in perspective...
Corporations don't kill people, end users kill people. Well... Ok, corporations kill a few people, they just don't use their own product... Wait, that doesn't sound so great either hmmm... Ok... Arms Producers don't kill people, People who do business with Arms Producers kill people... much better...