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Forum Post: It’s July 4th, a time for Americans to gather around and talk about who should really be allowed to vote.

Posted 1 year ago on July 4, 2012, 10:16 a.m. EST by factsrfun (10721) from Phoenix, AZ
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100 Comments


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[-] 2 points by ZenDog (20547) from South Burlington, VT 1 year ago

LoL!

Indeed - thus illustrating that there is a stark difference between parties.

The repelicans of today are different from jim crow dems of my great great grandfathers era by only this much:

  • they would enslave us all . . .
[-] 1 points by factsrfun (10721) from Phoenix, AZ 1 year ago

The position has been presented that they are not racist (the R's), that they hate all working people (since they demand wages, how rude) I want to believe that, I hate to think the worst of people, though I'm not sure if an unquenchable thirst for power and money is less or more evil, it's pretty damn evil.

[-] 2 points by PandoraK (1678) 1 year ago

It is a citizens right and obligation to participate in selecting the men and women who represent us all. By denying any citizen that right, by removing that obligation, we no longer would have a representative government but rather a selected government by what could be viewed as an elite group.

NO CITIZEN SHOULD BE DENIED THE VOTE.

[-] 1 points by LeoYo (4899) 1 year ago

No citizen has a Constitutional right to vote. The right to vote exists only at the state level and only specified discriminations in specific constitutional amendments are prohibited. So, until a constitutional right to vote exists, citizens will be denied the vote for whatever reason a state government decides (such as imprisonment) that doesn't conflict with the constitutional amendments.

[-] 1 points by PandoraK (1678) 1 year ago

14th Amendment on voting: But when the right to vote at any election for the choice of electors for President and Vice President of the United States, Representatives in Congress, the executive and judicial officers of a state, or the members of the legislature thereof, is denied to any of the male inhabitants of such state, being twenty-one years of age, and citizens of the United States, or in any way abridged, except for participation in rebellion, or other crime, the basis of representation therein shall be reduced in the proportion which the number of such male citizens shall bear to the whole number of male citizens twenty-one years of age in such state.

15th Amendment: The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any state on account of race, color, or previous condition of servitude. (Section 1)

The Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation. (Section 2)

19th Amendment: The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any state on account of sex.

Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.

Each one explicitly uses the term right to vote.

[-] 1 points by LeoYo (4899) 1 year ago

Each one is specific in the discrimination that is prohibited in the right to vote which is never implied to be federal. None of the amendments establishes a fedreral right to vote. They only prohibit discrimination from the states. That is why it is state law that determines whether or not prisoners and excons are allowed to vote, not federal law. A simple solution would be an amendment that states:

Barring conviction for either treason or for voting fraud, the right of all mentally healthy adult citizens to vote at all levels of government shall be guaranteed, the violation of which shall be punishable with equivalence to an act of treason.

http://occupywallst.org/forum/free-democracy-amendment/

[-] 1 points by PandoraK (1678) 1 year ago

"...except for participation in rebellion, or other crime..." Did you miss this part?

[-] 1 points by LeoYo (4899) 1 year ago

No, didn't miss it. Rebellion falls under treason.

[-] 1 points by PandoraK (1678) 1 year ago

"other crime'.

[-] 1 points by LeoYo (4899) 1 year ago

Voting fraud would be the only "other crime" under the proposed amendment.

[-] 0 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

So we don't have a right to vote?

[-] 0 points by LeoYo (4899) 1 year ago

You have a right to vote from your state. You have federal protections from specific forms of discrimination that could otherwise be enacted by your state.

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

Wow. No federal right to vote. That doesn't sound correct.

The feds do control racist southern states voting rights legislation though right?

[-] 0 points by LeoYo (4899) 1 year ago

The federal level prevents specific forms of discrimination for all states. The states are free to legislate as they please so long as it doesn't conflict with the Constitution or some other federal law.

[-] 0 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

But there is no fed constitutional right to vote?. Other than women, blacks, any others? Something doesn't sound correct about that. So a state can say no white men can vote? C'mon

[-] 0 points by LeoYo (4899) 1 year ago

There's already amendments that prohibit discrimination on the basis of race and gender so no, a state can't prohibit male caucasians from voting. A state can prohibit male caucasians who are imprisoned or who have served their time from voting. No federal law prohibits discrimination on the basis of incarceration and the 14 Amendment even specifically allows discrimination on the basis of crime.

[-] 3 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

That is not right! All citizens over 18 should be able to vote. Even after they have left jail.

[-] 1 points by LeoYo (4899) 1 year ago

I agree. Lots of people agree but so far not enough to agitate for a new amendment.

[-] 2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

That has to be an amendment? We could do it at the state level I bet. I suppose the racist southern states are mostly the ones with this exclusion huh?

[-] -1 points by juanitapr (-2) 1 year ago

You have been blacklisted as a pro-regime plant in this forum, Obamapologist. Who do you think doesn't know who you are working for?

[-] 0 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

Who are you? Are you back? Who has blacklisted me.?

[-] -3 points by factsrfun (10721) from Phoenix, AZ 1 year ago

Thank you for that input, but you do know that many are working to trim down the voter rolls, right? Like Gov. Scott in FL, it is lucky for those of us who don't want to see that happen that they all put a "R" by their name on the ballot so we know how to avoid them.

[-] 0 points by PandoraK (1678) 1 year ago

Yes, I know...I guess we're supposed to be blind as well as dumb.

[-] 2 points by factsrfun (10721) from Phoenix, AZ 1 year ago

Yeah they keep trying to blind us with bullshit like "they're all the same" meanwhile they make off with our government, we can only hope and pray American will rise up and throw off the GOP beast one day.

[-] -2 points by quicklynow (0) 1 year ago

It is funny how you pick and chose only Republicans who you allege are trimming down voter roles and refuse to discuss the Black Panthers who were committing voter intimidation in Florida as well during the 08 election. Also funny how the AG wouldn't investigate it.

[-] 1 points by factsrfun (10721) from Phoenix, AZ 1 year ago

so you want me to believe that got by who Jeb? was it? sounds like you're full of shit

[-] 1 points by factsrfun (10721) from Phoenix, AZ 1 year ago

Nice rant from Chris Hayes abut the GOP attempt to keep people from voting:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/46979738/ns/msnbc-up_with_chris_hayes/#48188237

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[-] 1 points by rpc972 (628) from Portland, OR 1 year ago

Run a credit check and let Equifax determine who votes, just like everything else!!! DUHHH!!!

[-] 3 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 1 year ago

I avoid credit checks

[-] 1 points by rpc972 (628) from Portland, OR 1 year ago

Can't work, rent an apt, or scratch your butt without one.

[-] 1 points by Builder (4202) 1 year ago

Now that is funny.

[-] 2 points by rpc972 (628) from Portland, OR 1 year ago

If it wasn't TRUE!!

How did we let this happen??

[-] 1 points by Builder (4202) 1 year ago

You're talking mainstream. People have a choice to deal with real people.

There's no way I would bother dealing with people who demand a credit check. I would ask them to show me their credit check first up. Then when I see it, tell them they are donkeys.

[-] 2 points by rpc972 (628) from Portland, OR 1 year ago

Is looking for a job "mainstream?" If you need a job you don't have a choice. A credit check is now part of the application process with many employers, it has with rentals for a decade. Dating services use credit checks!

[-] 1 points by Builder (4202) 1 year ago

Then it's time to opt out of that "system".

There's a whole wide world out there to explore, my friend.

Don't limit yourself to the town where you were first kissed.

[-] 2 points by rpc972 (628) from Portland, OR 1 year ago
[-] 2 points by rpc972 (628) from Portland, OR 1 year ago

It's everywhere here. You don't have Credit Checks in Australia?? If not, perhaps that is a result of mandatory Voting!? BTY, what is the fine?

[-] 1 points by Builder (4202) 1 year ago

No fine, if you can write a reasonably good letter.

Sure we have credit checks. If you can't live your life without credit, that is.

[-] 2 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 1 year ago

houses are priced higher than I'll ever make

[-] 2 points by rpc972 (628) from Portland, OR 1 year ago

Here you can fail a credit check FOR NOT using credit!!! Did you know that?

[-] 1 points by Builder (4202) 1 year ago

Money is paper in a fiat economy.

Failing to attain credit for paper wouldn't phase me.

Failing to survive on my own ability would phase me.

[-] 2 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 1 year ago

what does fiat mean?

[-] 2 points by rpc972 (628) from Portland, OR 1 year ago

No "reply" button for you.

Isn't it "virtual" space?

Still want to know what happened.

[-] 2 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 1 year ago

screens have physical space

the indent for appended conversations can only happen so many times

..

reply to yourself

and that reply will also be at it's terminus

[-] 2 points by Builder (4202) 1 year ago

Fiat money is money that derives its value from government regulation or .... In monetary economics, fiat money is an intrinsically useless product, used as a means of payment. From Wiki

[-] 3 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 1 year ago

thanks

[-] 1 points by rpc972 (628) from Portland, OR 1 year ago

Can't reply (Java?)

It's often used by righties who want us to go back to the Gold Standard.

It wouldn't kill you to throw me a twinkle, I get a lot of uncalled for shit and stinkle!

[-] 2 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 1 year ago

ofcourse gold's value is as arbitrary

the conversations on threads only append/indent so many times

due to physical space

[-] 1 points by rpc972 (628) from Portland, OR 1 year ago

It means something that is sanctioned or granted or ordered by government or some authority (like a King).

[-] 2 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 1 year ago

er

who goes that effect the economy?

[-] 1 points by Builder (4202) 1 year ago

Back when I was part of the "system" I got me one of those cards.

Mark of the beast, number of the devil. Chips of satan.

Lock you into a life of slavery. Get used to paying forever.

[-] 1 points by rpc972 (628) from Portland, OR 1 year ago

So you are a Marlboro Man?

I don't know if you are comprehending our situation. We have to take credit tests for everything, not just to barrow money, everything. If, say, you don't use a credit card, you can fail the test because you have not established a good credit record. Comprede?

[-] 1 points by Builder (4202) 1 year ago

You mean, did I once choke through a carton of cigarettes a week? Nope.

Do I comprehend your situation? Yes. There are any number of hoops that people are made to jump through on their way to perpetual debt.

I choose not to go down that path.

[-] 1 points by rpc972 (628) from Portland, OR 1 year ago

Not cigs, "rugged individual."

Not "perpetual debt," just to get a damn job.

[-] 1 points by SparkyJP (1646) from Westminster, MD 1 year ago

I don't think it's wise to connect money to voting (I guess unless you're buying votes). During times of mass depression, MOST people would be disenfranchised. Only the few with money and good credit would rule. I know it's how it is now, but this would legalize and legitimize this practice. Not a good OWS idea.

[-] 1 points by brosefstalin (139) from Wantagh, NY 1 year ago

Why all this discussion about voting in the UNITED STATES of AMERICA? Why aren't we discussing how awful the United States is? Why aren't we discussing that our war of independence eventually led to the displacement and destruction of the native peoples of this land.

When I think of this, it disgusts me to think of the United States as a land of so-called freedom.

[-] 2 points by factsrfun (10721) from Phoenix, AZ 1 year ago
[-] 1 points by LeoYo (4899) 1 year ago

To point out ongoing evils is never in the interests of those to benefit from those evils.

[-] 1 points by JadedCitizen (4277) 1 year ago

Lol. Even on independence day, you are trying to influence people how to vote.

independence - freedom from control or influence of another or others.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 1 year ago

I should have put on I show

I guess I'm burnt out

[-] -1 points by factsrfun (10721) from Phoenix, AZ 1 year ago

and you still trying to get people not to, do you get overtime today?

[-] 2 points by JadedCitizen (4277) 1 year ago

Do vote, but exercise independence - that would be my message.

[-] 3 points by HempTwister (667) from Little Rock, AR 1 year ago

A fine 1% position. Independent is exactly what they want. As long as you don't vote Obama, they win. That is what voter suppression is all about.

[-] 0 points by JadedCitizen (4277) 1 year ago

You're good Mr. Twister (Mister Twister, ha, it rhymes), nice elevator pitch. I love how you cleverly worked in fear, shame, and guilt, in under thirty words no less, to manipulate my emotions.

[-] 2 points by HempTwister (667) from Little Rock, AR 1 year ago

Reality sucks.

[-] 0 points by JadedCitizen (4277) 1 year ago

So change it.

[-] 1 points by factsrfun (10721) from Phoenix, AZ 1 year ago

So tell me you come and never do anything but bash Obama, aren't you being just as partisan as me?

[-] -2 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

Dont worry, Obama is the choosen one by the bankers.

The bombs are still dropping, the tax rates are still the same, and no one at the top has gone to jail.

He has proved he is willing to eat shit and smile to the public. They aren't replacing him anytime soon.

This is the perfect election to bring other presidential candidates into the light. Obama is a lock to win, so might as well get going with something else, get something else started.

[-] 3 points by HempTwister (667) from Little Rock, AR 1 year ago

Obama is not a lock. And look what you get of Romney wins. JeeZ, is anyone paying attention?

[-] -1 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

Obama IS a lock. He is a better salesmen than Mitt, better looking, already has 4 years of bowing to the banks under his belt, and is a good face to put on the middle east and african takeover we are in.

One only needs to look at the other idiots Kerry and Dole to see that the establishment parades these clowns out at the four year mark to give everyone the impression of choice.

You have no choices. You have owners. They own you. -Carlin

[-] 3 points by HempTwister (667) from Little Rock, AR 1 year ago

"They don't want critical thinking." Which one wants to defund schools? DOH!!!!

They are blatantly different. The one is not anywhere nearly perfect but the other is pure disaster.

[-] -2 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

We will never know what the other one would do because Obama has proven to do exactly as he has been told since his election.

They have no need to replace him. He is doing a great job.

[-] 3 points by HempTwister (667) from Little Rock, AR 1 year ago

"Obama has proven to do exactly as he has been told since his election."

And did we tell him what to do? I sat on my ass while my Senator killed the public option. Won't happen again.

[-] 0 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

I agree 100%. When we go as deep as we possibly can on the reasons why everything has happened, we end up at Apathy. i

[-] 1 points by SteveKJR1 (8) 1 year ago

If the people fall for his "better salesman" pitch instead of rational political thinking when they vote, no wonder the country is goin down the tubes.

Yah, he really can hold a tune to swoon the young college crowd. If thats what determines whom they vote for then it is they who want more government to provide for their needs.

So, you can be sure if he does get elected the national debt will be around 20 trillion when he finishes his second term - and the economy will still be the same then, as it is today.

I guess 8% will now be the new norm for unemployment.

[-] 1 points by quicklynow (0) 1 year ago

You have to remember that a majority of his voters are the less educated and impoverished in the country. They have to vote for him so that they can continue to recieve the hand outs without lifting a finger to earn anything. They continue to buy his cock and bull "Change" speaches all the while not being smart enough to realize he has done absolutly nothing to help them thus far.

[-] -1 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

The people fall for the salesmenship of these politicians every election, because very rarely do we have actual leaders running for important positions.

Very rarely do we have someone who doesnt take any shit running for an important position.

And when they do try to run, the establishment smears them through the money and there goes another good, normal person who probably would have actually served the good of the public.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (33128) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Very rarely do they hear truth and issues all they are likely to hear is propaganda...that is what "WE" need to address and change.

[-] 0 points by SteveKJR1 (8) 1 year ago

So what you are saying is that the vast majority of people in our society voting are sheep and can't think for themselves.

[-] -1 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

The fact that either of these parties is still around is really quite amazing, and is not the result of an intelligent, engaged public.

[-] 1 points by factsrfun (10721) from Phoenix, AZ 1 year ago

Why didn't you just take the name jadedrepublican?

[-] 0 points by JadedCitizen (4277) 1 year ago

I don't vote for republicans silly.

[-] 1 points by factsrfun (10721) from Phoenix, AZ 1 year ago

So you just help them get elected?

[-] 0 points by JadedCitizen (4277) 1 year ago

No, the billionaires play that role.

[-] 1 points by factsrfun (10721) from Phoenix, AZ 1 year ago

So they write your paychecks then?

[-] 0 points by JadedCitizen (4277) 1 year ago

My message - "Vote Your Conscience". Nobody pays me to say that. I don't even need to talk about parties, that is your gig.

[-] 0 points by factsrfun (10721) from Phoenix, AZ 1 year ago

as long as your conscience doesn't tell you to rid the world of Republicans I guess your OK with it, I think getting rid of Republicans is a vital first step, you jump down my throat every time I say so, seems to me you are the one with a problem with people of conscience

[-] 0 points by JadedCitizen (4277) 1 year ago

No, it is not that you are saying get rid of the republicans that bothers me. Who in their right minds likes what they represent? No, I am bothered by the snap judgments that I am for the repubs because I don't support dems. How are we defined? By what we are for or what we are against? I don't support dems and it says something about me, I don't support repubs, and it says something about me. I am against both dems and repubs. I am supporting a third party. You put labels on me that are unfair when you say I support repubs. I do not. I am not gullible and I am aware of the practicalities for voting against repubs. I do not consider it the only vital step, especially when you take into consideration the electoral system and swing states. I do not live in a swing state and my vote will have no effect on the outcome anyway. So I will vote for what I support. Does that make sense?

[-] 1 points by factsrfun (10721) from Phoenix, AZ 1 year ago

"support" them or not, what I am saying is that you strive to help them get elected your motives matter less than the affects of the lives of people done by their policies, I see a clear need to rid America of all that is the GOP you don't I unstand that, but evrything you speak against, when you do talk about anything except how bad the dems are, would not be in place without the GOP, the D's all were mostly against these policies in caes after case

[-] -1 points by factsrfun (10721) from Phoenix, AZ 1 year ago

Excerise your brain too

[-] 1 points by TrevorMnemonic (5827) 1 year ago

Tell me again how Obama is perfect and amazing and has solved all our problems

Tell me about all the joys of the NDAA, the Patriot Act, Secret Kill Lists, Bombs in more countries than in 2008, supporting the TSA, selling billions of dollars of weapons to dictatorships, and even his use of mercenaries for hire like Black Water to the tune of hundreds of millions in contracts in multiple countries, the continued use of drones in Pakistan after they have repeatedly asked to stop, war in Libya and Somalia and Pakistan and Yemen and Afghanistan, and mongering to Syria and Iran and declaring a National Emergency about Russia's nuclear program... tell me more about how awesome this is.

You Obama and Romney propagandists are funny

[-] 2 points by LetsGetReal (1420) from Grants, NM 1 year ago

"Bush started it." "The Republicans made him do it." "It's all Nader's fault anyway." blah, blah, blah

[-] 1 points by factsrfun (10721) from Phoenix, AZ 1 year ago

How could I when I've never said that? What I have said is that to do anything that helps though action or inaction a Republican take office is an act of treason as far as I'm concerned. Why don’t you tell me again how Bush wasn't really that bad and Romney's OK with you.

[-] 1 points by TrevorMnemonic (5827) 1 year ago

You do realize most of the hated Bush policies are still underway with Obama right?

You're statement is hypocrisy at it's finest. You hated Bush for many issues... yet you call out anyone who criticizes Obama for doing the same thing as Bush. Bailouts, Bush tax cuts, Bombing countries that didn't attack us, etc....

Vote for who you want but criticize all those who are wrong always. Tell Obama what you don't like about him and get him to change.

[-] 0 points by factsrfun (10721) from Phoenix, AZ 1 year ago

You do realize the there is a Republican named Mitt Romney also running and if Obama is not re-elected Romney will take office and make Bush looks like a saint.

[-] 1 points by TrevorMnemonic (5827) 1 year ago

Whatever you need to tell yourself to justify your vote.

I refuse to support anyone that bombs a nation that didn't attack us. I spoke out against that shit during Bush and I'm not going to be a hypocrite now.

At least when you blame the repubs, it makes more sense.

In 2008, money in politics got Democrats to support a pro-war and pro-patriot act democrat instead of the only democrat running that actually tried to impeach Bush for his crimes.

Money in politics is the problem. We need to stop playing the stupid partisan politics game and realize the money buying politicians is the problem. The system is broken and people aren't paying attention to voting history or who people really work for.

This is OWS not an Obama 2012 campaign site and it sure as shit aint no Romney 2012 campaign site either.

[-] 0 points by factsrfun (10721) from Phoenix, AZ 1 year ago

many people will refuse to help solve this problem

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