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Forum Post: citizens united wins

Posted 2 years ago on June 5, 2012, 10:14 p.m. EST by bensdad (8977)
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citizens united wins

176 Comments

176 Comments


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[-] 4 points by bensdad (8977) 2 years ago

"citizens united" is the name of the supreme court decision that gave us super-pacs and made it even easier for the 1% to buy our democracy.

it is a very complicated case, that was decided by the crapitalist justices with the same logic that decided bush v Gore that gave us bush/cheney/rummy & the Iraq war -

they knew who the owners are

[-] 7 points by shadz66 (19985) 2 years ago

Americans seem to be suffering from a kind of 'Mass Stockholm Syndrome'. They habitually exhibit a general disconnect between their attitudes towards economic inequality and their own real self-interest and public policy preferences - suggesting perhaps that even given increased awareness of the erosion of workers' rights & the gap between ideal and actual wealth distributions - Americans may still remain unlikely to advocate for policies that would narrow this gap mainly due to continuous MSM Propaganda.

For still relevant perspectives from last year on the Koch supported Walker's win (& Wisconsin's loss), please see :

This why OWS is so very important for the urgent moves to change this "Turkeys Voting For Thanksgiving", 'bizzaro' temporary reality !

Most citizens in The USA, need to work for themselves or by selling their labour, knowledge and expertise & work for others in order to pay their bills, take care of their obligations and finance their lifestyles. Thus from this perspective, stripped of hubris, conceits and affectations - most people are 'Working Class' - irrespective of what they do or how much they earn !!

Perhaps there is - more than ever, the need for a political party to Truly Represent 'Labour" - as opposed to the situation now where both sides of the 'faux dichotomy of Republocrat/Demoblican', only represent "Capital". Past Nov.2012, it's time for an "American Labour Party" & /or Real Independents !!!

ad iudicium ...

[-] 2 points by TitusMoans (2451) from Boulder City, NV 2 years ago

Your conclusions remind me of a union shop steward I know, He constantly rallies for the labor movement and related causes. One of his favorite expressions is, "A working man voting for a Republican is like a chicken voting for Colonel Sanders."

This tendency for workers to vote opposite their self-interest probably explains the reason why the 1% and their goose-step followers consistently try and most times succeed in reducing the funding for education.

Don't believe me? Look at the posts by right-wing trolls on this forum. Most often they only parrot the venom spewed by so-called pundits like Sean Hannity, Rush Limbaugh, ad nauseum.

[-] 3 points by shadz66 (19985) 2 years ago

"A working man voting for a Republican is like a chicken voting for Colonel Sanders." - sure, I'll agree with that but from the outside looking in - A Working Man Voting Democrat is only covering himself in a coating of secret ingredients in the vain hope of protecting his hide ; when the ultimate sad reality is that he is gonna still get crispy fried and munched !

I believe you and of course there are Retarded, Reactionary, Right-Wing Replicant Robots on this forum - that's their job and wont - they're incorrigible !!

As for mendacious, malignant corporate shills like Sean Insanity, Thrush Slimeball and Bilious Oh'Really - "ad nauseum" indeed & F**k 'Em !!!

qui tacet consentire ...

[-] 4 points by TitusMoans (2451) from Boulder City, NV 2 years ago

We have very little choice at the ballot box. Both major-party candidates have been signed, sealed, delivered and approved by the 1%. Our choices are between two right-wingers, either of which will make very little difference, except to have the opposing faction histrionically denouncing the other faction until the next election, which begins the next act.

[-] 4 points by shadz66 (19985) 2 years ago

I hear you and with apologies for the repetition : "Perhaps there is - more than ever, the need for a political party to Truly Represent 'Labour" - as opposed to the situation now where both sides of the 'faux dichotomy of Republocrat/Demoblican', only represent 'Capital'. Past Nov.2012, it's time for an 'American Labour Party' & /or Real Independents !!!"

veritas vos liberabit ...

[-] 3 points by TitusMoans (2451) from Boulder City, NV 2 years ago

Time for real opposition press as well. We need choices not the SOS.

[-] 2 points by Builder (4202) 2 years ago

It's time for real democracy, in realtime.

The press talk about how much has been "raised" by each candidate. How about making it mandatory to declare how much has been given to each candidate, and what they expect to get back for their "donation" to the election campaign?

Some transperancy is what is needed here.

[-] 2 points by shadz66 (19985) 2 years ago

'Builder' : On yer mate ! You might be enthused and interested by these threads :

pax et lux ...

[-] 1 points by TitusMoans (2451) from Boulder City, NV 2 years ago

I believe most of the posters on this forum want a political system in which average people, workers, either speak for themselves or have real representation; the latter still trust our current system can be fixed.

I do not support that conclusion. Our republic has been perverted beyond repair. All branches of the government are tools of the oligarchy. The situation requires a complete renovation, and our country can be changed without violence through education, which requires some sort of opposition press.

Maybe it's time one of the large libcom groups, or even OWS, establish media outlets. Of course that takes money. So, all of us that support radical change would have to pitch in with real money, not just words and ideals.

[-] 1 points by Builder (4202) 2 years ago

I guess that is why the internet is such a frightening entity to the oligarchy/kleptocracy, and why moves are afoot to control freedom of speech, including what is said on the internet.

Not sure what happened, but I thought this forum had disappeared. I couldn't access it from the usual link in my favourites folder. Had to come in through a link to an individual thread.

Was it down for a few weeks?. It was down from this end. (Australia).

[-] 1 points by TitusMoans (2451) from Boulder City, NV 2 years ago

No, the site has not been down for any period of time.

I agree that education of the masses frightens the 1%, whether that education comes in the traditional form of schooling or via the internet. One of the first items "conservatives" target is the educational system, normally by decreasing teaching staff and increasing class size, effectively diluting the eductaional process.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (28460) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

I have had a very bad internet connection. Always on OWS Occupy 99% movement action days. This is more then a little troubling to me as I am in a major metropolitan area - an area with all the technological bells and whistles - so when I lose my internet connection a dozen times in a day and there is no mention of widespread difficulties experienced in my area - it makes me more then a little curious as to what sort of messing around is happening.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

been up in the USA

[-] -1 points by CaptainTony (-145) 2 years ago

Are you independently wealthy, Matthew?

[-] 0 points by RealWorld2 (-114) 2 years ago

The unions have their heads in the sand. It's no wonder why they're surprised. These are the same people that shamelessly turn to taxpayers for more to fund benefits taxpayers don't have.

A friend is in a WI teachers union. Members look at taxpayers as some sort of candy machine. Just crank the dial and goodies come out. Right now, they're like 4 year olds that just cranked and nothing came out this time. His members see problems and just think about going and taking it, and never EVER reform.

[-] 2 points by shadz66 (19985) 2 years ago

WTF kinda 'RealWorld' are you living in exactly ?!!! Republicunt Shill !! temet nosce !

[-] -3 points by RealWorld2 (-114) 2 years ago

Why do liberals now choose padding retirement packages over keeping libraries open? There isn't really very much progressive about siding with entrenched tone deaf unions as they crowd out the stuff liberals used to claim to care about. You've turned on what used to be your own causes.

[-] 3 points by shadz66 (19985) 2 years ago

Stop talking outta yer (x) cowboy & stop wearing it as a hat !!!

Further, please don't confuse me with a "liberal" !!

et nosce te ipsum !

[-] -3 points by RealWorld2 (-114) 2 years ago

I forgot, you just think govt can just go and take more when it wants more. How liberal.

[-] 3 points by shadz66 (19985) 2 years ago

I say Retake, Reclaim, Rebuild - "The Government OF The People; FOR The People; BY The People" !!! & by the sound of it, I've forgotten more than you'll ever know !! gnothi seauton !

[-] -1 points by RealWorld2 (-114) 2 years ago

Great, but that means a major overhaul of the conflict of interest that underlies public employees unions. We've seen how leftists take to that one.

[Deleted]

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 2 years ago

"They All Lie" : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HeMZMpGH7Sk & hail the dub ~{~

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

i'm deleting my line above

[-] 1 points by JesseHeffran (3903) 2 years ago

After reading this article, i believe miss information and bad journalism was as much a factor as unlimited money was in the Wisconsin recall election.

http://www.tax.com/taxcom/taxblog.nsf/permalink/uben-8edjys

[-] 1 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

The courts are bought out by the same people that buy out both parties.

[-] 1 points by bensdad (8977) 2 years ago

so you believe sotomayor + kagen = thomas + scalia
FYI- thomas & scalia got koch money

[-] 3 points by DKAtoday (28460) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

It is not over until it is over.

The National Campaign to End Corporate Personhood and Demand Democracy! Move to Amend

Vote, Rally, and Press Conference

In solidarity with a national effort, the Saint Paul Area Move to Amend brought our anti-corporate personhood resolution to the Saint Paul City Council. There we found a strong ally in Councilor David Thune (Ward 2). Thune introduced our resolution to the agenda. He has also urged the support of other councilors to recognize and pass our resolution. We are on the Saint Paul City Council agenda for Wednesday, June 13, 2012.

Volunteers with the Saint Paul Area Move to Amend are calling for the restoration of democracy. Our goal, along with millions of others around the country, is to get “big money out of politics.” We hope the Saint Paul City Council will vote yes on our resolution, which calls for a constitutional amendment, asserting that corporations are not people and money is not speech.

Please join us for the Saint Paul City Council vote. Afterwards, we will have a press conference, speakers, and a rally in celebration of this historic vote. By showing your support in person, we will build momentum for similar bills in the MN State Legislature, which is a critical step toward our ultimate goal, a Constitutional Amendment.

Saint Paul Action What: Council Vote & Resolution Rally Where:

Room 330 City Hall & Court House

15 Kellogg Boulevard West Saint Paul, MN 55102

When: 3:30 PM (council vote) Wednesday, June 13, 2012 3:40 PM Press Conference & Rally

RSVP: If you’re on Facebook, RSVP at Saint Paul Resolution Rally

http://salsa3.salsalabs.com/dia/track.jsp?v=2&c=uoGKHlCglU4S7je82L5Jaf05eDi66aKZ

Speakers: Councilor David Thune, Professor Jack Nelson-Pallmeyer, and Saint Paul Area Move to Amend volunteer Elayna Waxse

We the People, Not We the Corporations

The ruling in Citizens United v. Federal Election Commission, the Supreme Court ruled that corporations are persons, entitled by the U.S. Constitution to buy elections and run our government. The Supreme Court is misguided in principle, and wrong on the law. In a democracy, the people rule. We Move to Amend.

“...corporations have no consciences, no beliefs, no feelings, no thoughts, no desires. Corporations help structure and facilitate the activities of human beings, to be sure, and their “personhood” often serves as a useful legal fiction. But they are not themselves members of “We the People” by whom and for whom our Constitution was “established.” ~ Justice John Paul Stevens

The Resolution

RESOLVED, the People of Saint Paul, MN, stand with the Move to Amend campaign and communities across the country to defend democracy from the corrupting effects of undue corporate power by amending the United States Constitution to establish that:

Only human beings, not corporations, are endowed with constitutional rights, and Money is not speech, and therefore regulating political contributions and spending is not equivalent to limiting political speech.

BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED, that the People of Saint Paul, MN, hereby instruct our state and federal representatives to enact resolutions and legislation to advance this effort.

Join Move to Amend in Saint Paul

Saint Paul Area Move to Amend

Move to Amend, MN decisions are made democratically. As we move to restore democracy in our political system, we practice it in our meetings. Join us as we plan events, actions, and strategies to help build awareness and resistance to “corporate personhood.” The Saint Paul Area MTA group is a new affiliate in Minnesota. Now is your opportunity to get in on the ground floor. You can also join us on facebook group.

What: Saint Paul Area Move to Amend general meeting

When: Forepaugh’s Restaurant: 276 Exchange Street South; Saint Paul, MN 55102

Where: Sunday, June 24, 7 PM (4th Sunday of each month)

Note: There is a happy hour special at the restaurant. Tap beers are only $3. 21+ to drink, 18+ to participate in the meeting.

MINNEAPOLIS MOVE TO AMEND MoveToAmend.org/MN-minneapolis Minneapolis Move to Amend is a local affiliate of the Move to Amend Coalition

We, the People of the United States of America, reject the U.S. Supreme Court's Citizens United ruling, and move to amend our Constitution to firmly establish that money is not speech, and that human beings, not corporations, are persons entitled to constitutional rights.

National Headquarters: PO Box 610, Eureka CA 95502 | www.MoveToAmend.org

[-] 2 points by 1sealyon (434) 2 years ago

The market seems to like to election results:

http://stream.wsj.com/story/markets/SS-2-5/

[-] 1 points by bensdad (8977) 2 years ago

and that means what ?

[-] 2 points by 1sealyon (434) 2 years ago

It means that investors expect that the value of their investments will increase.

[-] 0 points by JS93 (-321) 2 years ago

That the "Investors expect" a return on their Citizens United "contributions."

http://motherjones.tumblr.com/post/24470745240/chart-of-the-day-if-scott-walker-wins-his-recal

[-] 0 points by 1sealyon (434) 2 years ago

I agree with you about the corrupting nature of citizens U. But corruption is the crime, not the speech. The right of free speech can't be limited. Don't let Gov take that away from you. Next step is for them to hunt you down for comments made in the forum.

The politician that benefits from a pac ad and uses his office as payback is commiting a crime. Have a trial and put him in jail if he is guilty.

The crime against the people is that lazy Gov habit of punishing the innocent for the sins of the guilty. That is their favorite solution to a problem. A nutjob shoots up a school house and the Gov takes away his neighbors squirrel gun. Sloth does more damage than incompetence.

[-] -1 points by JS93 (-321) 2 years ago

Money is no more speech than Corporations are People, my friend. And you don't buy democracy, or governorships. That's called Election Fraud, not the mythical RW "Voter Fraud" (which is a criminal Voter suppression tactic).

RW wackos have ruined the right to bear arms for the rest of us, it's domestic terrorism. RW Hate and Lie radio exacerbates, plays on, and abuses our free society. If porn is rated X, Rush and Bortz should be rated XXXX!

See Bowling for Columbine.

The Real Crime against the People is the invasion/occupation and usurpation of our government by Private Big Money Interests. And of course the 30+ year Class War they are waging on the People.

[-] 0 points by 1sealyon (434) 2 years ago

I agree with you (getting to be a habit). Buying politicians is a crime for both the payor and payee.

A corp is a group of people that assemble to achieve a goal that is made possible or more easily realized with the mechanical advantage of a team. That team could be Google, NOW, or the AFL. Each of these groups has the right to pool their resources to support a cause like a cure for cancer, or to buy ads promoting their political opinions.

Misconduct by one person or group cannot ruin a right for anyone else. Rights can only be taken from an individual because of that individuals misconduct.

[-] -2 points by JS93 (-321) 2 years ago

Except for drunk driving and yelling fire in a theater, and many many more examples, curtail our rights all the time and everywhere you look. Abuse of rights is why we have rules, regulations and cops.

"A group of people that assemble to achieve a goal that is made possible or more easily realized with the mechanical advantage of a team." Labor Unions!

[-] 0 points by 1sealyon (434) 2 years ago

BTW, why is drunk driving a crime?

What about drowsey driving, eating behind the wheel, mascara mobiling, etc.?

[-] 0 points by 1sealyon (434) 2 years ago

Labor unions were included in the list of groups above and the list of limits on free speech is very small; although even that list should be smaller.

So if unions are included (yes they are corps) then do we agree that corps have free speech rights?

[-] -3 points by JS93 (-321) 2 years ago

Nope! No INCs after USA!

Unions are not corps and are for people, corporations are legal contracts for commercial enterprise. No commercial enterprises allowed in American democracy. For the people, by the people... no INCs!

[-] 1 points by 1sealyon (434) 2 years ago

Look a little closer. AFL, CIO, AFT, AFSME, Teasmsters, they are all corporations and their presidents are 1% millionaires. It is also debatable whether the millionaire union bosses are for anyone but themselves.

There are other corps that exercise their free speech rights such as NOW, PETA, Sierra Club, and Occupy Wall Street (incorporated last Nov).

[-] -3 points by JS93 (-321) 2 years ago

Nuance, exceptions, finesse all part of our patchwork world. But no commercial enterprises in our government, that's the people's exclusive domain. You guys keep your private country clubs and leave our government alone.

[-] 1 points by 1sealyon (434) 2 years ago

No commercial enterprises?

Planned Parenthood is a commercial enterprise. Are they entitled to free speech rights? Do they own anybody in Congress?

[-] 0 points by JS93 (-321) 2 years ago

You're grasping at straws.

Quit hating on the People's (public not commercial) democracy.

Just sit in that country club and leave the People alone.

[-] 1 points by 1sealyon (434) 2 years ago

I agree with you about the problem with politicians that use their office to payback corporations that bribe them with campaign contributions. But the solution is to punish the corps, the politicians, and the people that commit the crimes.

The solution is not to steal the free speech rights from the corporations and people that committed no crimes. This is the Big Gov, lazy solution to all problems. Punish the innocent for the crimes of the guilty.

I also agree with you that Corporate Labor Unions are of course entitled to free speech rights, and Walker and the GOP WI Senate were wrong to outlaw collective bargaining. Again, they are punishing the innocent for the crimes of the guilty.

[-] 0 points by JS93 (-321) 2 years ago

Corporations should be reduced to public service status enterprises operating wholly at the will of the People, with annual evaluations determining their value and compliance. Beyond truthfully advertising their products and announcing sales or employment opportunities, they haven't a thing to say, especially concerning our government. How it got beyond this is a gross aberration screaming to be remedied!

[-] 1 points by 1sealyon (434) 2 years ago

Again, where is your argument. Stealing the rights of the People as you propose is fascism, or the new flavor of the month, state-ism.

[-] 0 points by JS93 (-321) 2 years ago

What about? is not an argument.

You are about stealing the rights of people, and replacing them with rights for Corporations.

"When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." and claiming the same rights given to Rush Limpaw.

[-] 1 points by 1sealyon (434) 2 years ago

I don't see a persuasive argument in your response.

What about the Chamber of Commerce, the Rotary Club, Masons, Association of African Businesses, Greater Washington Hispanic Chamber of Commerce, the Black Business Bureau, National Black Business Council, Inc., , the Urban League, The United Negro College Fund, International Association of Black Business Owners, the list is endless, do they have free speech rights? Pretty big pile of straws.

As soon as you allow rights to be taken from folks with which you disagree it won't be long before they come for yours.

[-] 0 points by JS93 (-321) 2 years ago

"When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." and claiming the same rights given to Rush Limpaw.

[-] 1 points by 1sealyon (434) 2 years ago

No commercial enterprises?

How about the NRA, Teaparty, Aryian Nation, KKK, NAMBLA, and the Hell's Angels? They are all ok by you?

[-] -3 points by JS93 (-321) 2 years ago

It's true that Big Pharma, Big Oil, Big Arms, Big INCs own members of Congress, but this is an aberration that begs correction. If the GOP would quit tying up government by doing nothing but blocking and sabotaging and holding the country hostage, we could do something about it and many other things. Like expanding green energy, getting off oil and sending the Cheney-Bush criminals to the Hague!

[-] 1 points by 1sealyon (434) 2 years ago

Is Obama a criminal for executing American Citizens without a trial? Does he deserve a trip to the Hague? Maybe they should just give him a Peace Prize.

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2011/nov/24/killing-our-citizens-without-trial/?pagination=false

[-] -2 points by JS93 (-321) 2 years ago

Cheney-Bush were willing employees of the war machine powers that be, Obama-Biden inherited the mess. I'd go for a presidential revolt, but we all saw how badly that went for Mikhail Sergeyevich Gorbachev.

[-] 2 points by factsrfun (6973) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

remember the "Robert's Court" let it live in infamy

[-] 2 points by 1sealyon (434) 2 years ago

The people voted. The people won.

[-] -2 points by JS93 (-321) 2 years ago

The Koch Bros and secret Citizens United payola subverted democracy, purchased the WI governorship, and swindled Wisconsinites!

[-] 2 points by friendlyopposition (574) 2 years ago

I think you mean "citizens united win"

[-] 2 points by 1sealyon (434) 2 years ago

36% of union workers voted for Walker. What were they thinking?

[-] 2 points by beautifulworld (20548) 2 years ago

I guess they like declining wages and eroding workers' rights. They're rugged individuals and can "make it" on their own. Maybe they'll even be rich capitalists some day.

[-] 2 points by 1sealyon (434) 2 years ago

No really, why do you suppose they voted for Walker?

[-] 2 points by beautifulworld (20548) 2 years ago

Just what I said. They are rugged individualists. They will pitch tents on their childrens' lawn in retirement if need be. That is, if their children have lawns. No unions for them. No workers' rights for them. They don't need 'em.

[-] 2 points by 1sealyon (434) 2 years ago

36%. They belong to unions. There are card carrying members. There must be some other reason that so many voted for Walker.

[-] 2 points by beautifulworld (20548) 2 years ago

You're not giving your reason. If you want to have a discussion, please do so. The only reason I can see, when wages have been declining for 30 years, when pensions are a thing of the past, health benefits hard to come by, etc. etc. is a blind faith in the ethos of the "American rugged individualist." That's all I see. Some of these people could be homeless and starving to death and they'd still believe in the Horatio Alger myth. Why? Because they've been taught to dream about what they "can" be as opposed to what they actually are which is working folk who need an economic system that works for them.

[-] 3 points by flip (6775) 2 years ago

just sent this to your pal sealyon - it is called 70 years of propaganda - here is chomsky on the mohawk valley formula - We are now talking about the business community which spends lots and lots of money and attention and thought into how to deal with these problems through the public relations industry and other organizations like the National Association of Manufacturers and the Business Roundtable these days and so on. They set to work immediately to try to find a way to counter these democratic deviations, the first major effort, the first trial was a year later. In 1936 there was a major strike, the Bethlehem steel strike out in Western Pennsylvania, Johnstown, the mohawk valley and business tried out a new technique of destruction of labor which worked, worked very well, it was through propaganda.

Not through goon squads,breaking knees and all that kind of business which wasn't working very well anymore but through the more subtle and effective means of propaganda. The idea was to figure out ways to turn the public against the strikers, to present the strikers as disruptive, harmful to the public, against the common interests and the common interests are those of US, the businessman, the worker, the housewife and so on, that's all US, and we want to be just together, we want to have things like harmony, and Americanism and working together and so on and then theres those bad strikers out there who are kind of disruptive and causing trouble and breaking harmony and violating Americanism and we have to stop them so we can all live together, the corporate executive and the guy who cleans the floor who all have the same interests. we can all work together and work for Americanism in harmony, liking each other, that was essentially the message and a huge amount of effort was put into presenting it.

Recall after all this was the business community, so they control the media and have massive resources and so on. And it worked very effectively, in fact it was later called the mohawk valley formula applied over and over again to break that strike and these were called scientific methods of strike breaking and they worked very effectively. Mobilize community opinion in favor of vapid empty concepts like americanism - who can be against that? or harmony, who can be against that? Or to bring it upto date, Support our troops - who can be against that, or yellow ribbons - who can be against that?

[-] 2 points by beautifulworld (20548) 2 years ago

It is very important that we explore the roots of these problems. Thanks, flip. Very interesting. This is why I say the people have been "brainwashed."

[-] 2 points by flip (6775) 2 years ago

i agree - the europeans understand their history better than we understand ours. they understand us versus them - brainwashed is the correct word. if you google the creel commision you will get lots of interesting info. a bit more from noam - "If you’ve read George Orwell’s Animal Farm which he wrote in the mid-1940s, it was a satire on the Soviet Union, a totalitarian state. It was a big hit. Everybody loved it. Turns out he wrote an introduction to Animal Farm which was suppressed. It only appeared 30 years later. Someone had found it in his papers. The introduction to Animal Farm was about "Literary Censorship in England" and what it says is that obviously this book is ridiculing the Soviet Union and its totalitarian structure. But he said England is not all that different. We don’t have the KGB on our neck, but the end result comes out pretty much the same. People who have independent ideas or who think the wrong kind of thoughts are cut out.

He talks a little, only two sentences, about the institutional structure. He asks, why does this happen? Well, one, because the press is owned by wealthy people who only want certain things to reach the public. The other thing he says is that when you go through the elite education system, when you go through the proper schools in Oxford, you learn that there are certain things it’s not proper to say and there are certain thoughts that are not proper to have. That is the socialization role of elite institutions and if you don’t adapt to that, you’re usually out. Those two sentences more or less tell the story. ......There are basically three currents to look at. One is the public relations industry, you know, the main business propaganda industry. So what are the leaders of the PR industry saying? Second place to look is at what are called public intellectuals, big thinkers, people who write the "op eds" and that sort of thing. What do they say? The people who write impressive books about the nature of democracy and that sort of business. The third thing you look at is the academic stream, particularly that part of political science which is concerned with communications and information and that stuff which has been a branch of political science for the last 70 or 80 years.

So, look at those three things and see what they say, and look at the leading figures who have written about this. They all say (I’m partly quoting), the general population is "ignorant and meddlesome outsiders." We have to keep them out of the public arena because they are too stupid and if they get involved they will just make trouble. Their job is to be "spectators," not "participants."

They are allowed to vote every once in a while, pick out one of us smart guys. But then they are supposed to go home and do something else like watch football or whatever it may be. But the "ignorant and meddlesome outsiders" have to be observers not participants. The participants are what are called the "responsible men" and, of course, the writer is always one of them. You never ask the question, why am I a "responsible man" and somebody else is in jail? The answer is pretty obvious. It’s because you are obedient and subordinate to power and that other person may be independent, and so on. But you don’t ask, of course. So there are the smart guys who are supposed to run the show and the rest of them are supposed to be out, and we should not succumb to (I’m quoting from an academic article) "democratic dogmatisms about men being the best judges of their own interest." They are not. They are terrible judges of their own interests so we have do it for them for their own benefit.

Actually, it is very similar to Leninism. We do things for you and we are doing it in the interest of everyone, and so on. I suspect that’s part of the reason why it’s been so easy historically for people to shift up and back from being, sort of enthusiastic Stalinists to being big supporters of U.S. power. People switch very quickly from one position to the other, and my suspicion is that it’s because basically it is the same position. You’re not making much of a switch. You’re just making a different estimate of where power lies. One point you think it’s here, another point you think it’s there. You take the same position.

[-] 4 points by beautifulworld (20548) 2 years ago

Wow. Great post, flip. One of the best ever on this forum. It also serves to explicate exactly why OWS needs to remain apolitical. We all can vote as individuals but the movement as a whole must not fall back into the system that caused all of these problems. MSM, academia, and the existing economic and political structure are not our friends. People need to wake up.

[-] 3 points by flip (6775) 2 years ago

glad you liked it - we certainly need to wake up - i believe that the beginning of the end of the vietnam war was the teach ins (early 60's) - we need to do more of the same. history and the facts are on our side but too few know them. lots of great info out there and chomsky is the best source in my opinion - the book "understanding power" is an excellent resource. footnotes are online and almost as long as the book! you can pick almost any subject and find it in the index and get lots of great sources.

[-] 3 points by beautifulworld (20548) 2 years ago

Maybe you can make a list of the best Chomsky stuff to read and post it here. I know I'd find it useful as would others. Keep up the good work, flip. I know it's discouraging at times, but we have to keep fighting the good fight.

[-] 3 points by flip (6775) 2 years ago

you do realize that after two bush terms people were so ready for change they elected a black man who said lots of good things - he didn't mean them but they did vote for serious change. there is plenty of anger but people do not always know where to direct that anger. i was a college freshman in 1968 - things can get crazy quickly!

[-] 2 points by beautifulworld (20548) 2 years ago

LOL! I'm waiting, flip.

[-] 3 points by flip (6775) 2 years ago

that is an interesting idea - one of theses days i might get the time to do it. for sure we have to keep up the fight but the question for me is where and how. i thought this might be a good place but it does not seem to be anymore. i think that raising consciousness through education will go a long way towards solving our problems.

[-] 2 points by beautifulworld (20548) 2 years ago

Education is key, but the general ethos of the people is also important. I'm afraid if we don't get to these two core matters the U.S. will continue to decline. Try to do that post at some point if you can.

I just met a worker in Staples who told me he was part of the Hungarian revolution in 1956 (I have no strong knowledge of that history) and he said give it a little more time and when these kids (American) get angry enough they're (the gov't) going to be scared like hell. Time will tell. Will the people wake up when things get worse? How much worse does it have to get before people wake up?

[-] 3 points by votasaurus (62) 2 years ago

Yep. We can't have 300,000,000 Trumps. Its impossible for everyone to have food, water, clothing, and shelter if everyone is fighting each other to reach the top of some financial pyramid.

[-] 2 points by beautifulworld (20548) 2 years ago

Right. This myth that we can all be wealthy entrepreneurs needs to be smashed. It's ruining this country.

[-] 1 points by 1sealyon (434) 2 years ago

Maybe these union folks that voted for Walker are not motivated solely by money and personal benefit? Maybe they are motivated by values that are more important to them than money?

[-] -1 points by beautifulworld (20548) 2 years ago

Exactly. You hit the nail on the head. They'd rather live in a nation where the average worker earns less than $26,000 per year and wages and workers' rights are declining, while the costs of everything else is going up, than give up their dream of a "freedom" that just does not exist the way they think it does.

[-] 0 points by 1sealyon (434) 2 years ago

Whatever it is it must be pretty powerful for folks to vote against their own self-interest. Maybe freedom is more important to them than money. Maybe liberty is the most important thing to them. What was the Patrick Henry quote?

[-] 2 points by TitusMoans (2451) from Boulder City, NV 2 years ago

Big words: freedom and liberty, too bad they have so little meaning in the United States today.

You throw them around like weapons and ignore the consistent and constant erosion of our rights by the 1% and their government beginning with the rights to a real education, decent housing, adequate food, and affordable health care. Without these, we are not free, we are not at liberty to do anything but work for our subsistence like serfs.

[-] 1 points by 1sealyon (434) 2 years ago

Food, education, housing, health care. These are rights? Someone owes them to us?

What else does the world owe us? Widescreen TV, Xbox, caviar, smart phone, a nice car (not one of those little hybrid things) , a girlfriend, cigarettes, 24 oz soft drink (wait that's off).

Is there anything that we are responsible for providing ourselves?

So we trade liberty for a cell phone? That went for cheap.

[-] 2 points by TitusMoans (2451) from Boulder City, NV 2 years ago

What exactly does liberty mean?

Is it something on a pedestal that we admire from afar? I don't believe so. Define liberty and freedom above how we choose to live. If most of the decisions are made for us, so that all we do is work to survive then we possess very little freedom or liberty at all.

You can't mean the "right to vote," since that means very little to the poorly educated, the homeless, the hungry, the sick; especially since the so-called candidates are pre-selected, digested, and regurgitated for us. You can't mean the right to freedom of speech, or of the press, or of assembly, or of protest, since most of those have been heavily curtailed by "anti-terrorist" legislation.

The "world owes us" nothing, but neither does it owe the 1% anything. Trickle-up welfare hasn't worked. We've enriched the already wealthy, while the median American real wage has stagnated or declined.

We live in an oligarchy and we are not part of the ruling elite. Perhaps you can explain our liberty in providing JP Morgan with $25 billion in TARP funds, plus a 10-year warrant, only to watch them engage in the same reckless practices that put most major banks on the welfare roles. They certainly deserve help more than the poorly educated, the homeless, the hungry, and the sick, don't they?

[-] 2 points by 1sealyon (434) 2 years ago

Freedom is a human right , but domination is human nature. We are the product of a million years of tribalism. It is in our genes. One group will always try to dominate another.

Consequently, liberty is a constant battle. Our Gov tries to dominate the governed. In a democracy this is accomplished by pitting one group against another. R vs D, union vs non-union, urban vs rural. Take from group A, give to group B, and force group B to re-elect you. Group B must comply to ensure future largess. Group B becomes slaves.

This model works for the Gov until a courageous minority emerges like the 36% in WI.

It is true that the fight for liberty in continuous, particularly when we are constantly tempted by the Gov to surrender our freedom in exchange for some benefit or other. The 36% showed a lot of courage rejecting the Gov bribe. I respect their valor and their humanity. When we start insulting people with bovine references our own humanity begins to slip away.

[-] 1 points by JesseHeffran (3903) 2 years ago

Wow, your analogy is thought provoking. But even if your words are true, shouldn't your bleak interpretation just be seen as the horrible cost of civilization. Fine, so politics is one group taking from another.

But I have to ask. How else do we go about creating, transportation, utility affordability, and all the other services that are provided to those who were not fortuitous, smart enough or don't have the time to work because they are raising families?

I believe those thirty percent, who voted against their own self interests, actually made their lot a whole lot worse. You know for a nation that worships those with money but takes what little benefits and securities their public officials have, really can't complain about corruption when their actions yesterday opened a Pandora's box of public corruption. When people can no longer support their standard of living they have become accustomed to, they are more prone to corruption. When people are able to support their families, their need to dominate subsides.

I believe a well fed bureaucrat is a working man's check against an over dominating Business class. The fall of public union domination on the left leaves the gates wide open for private domination from the right.

[-] 1 points by TitusMoans (2451) from Boulder City, NV 2 years ago

Simply put, you equate liberty to constant battle, nothing more than one group trying to dominate another.

So, where is our battle against the 1% being waged? Certainly not with you and people that agree with you like the 36% in Wisconsin. Instead, for some reason unknown to me, you choose to side and fight for your oppressors. Maybe you believe the 1% are your benefactors.

I have read that Wisconsin sometimes refers to itself as the "dairy state." Such a title is fitting for the "courageous minority...like the 36%;" they behaved like dairy cows ready to be milked.

[-] 2 points by 1sealyon (434) 2 years ago

I am glad to hear you say that the world owes us nothing. Because it does not. That said generosity and compassion are virtues. People that help others are humanitarians, and people that sacrifice for others are the real heroes. But forced benevolence is not righteous.

TARP, GM, Chrysler, JP Morgan, Wall Street, and the McMansion mortgage the guy down the street over-extended himself with; none of these people should have been bailed out using money taken from their neighbors (or, more accurately, from their neighbors grand children).

Freedom is the right to live unencumbered by the will of others.

[-] 1 points by TitusMoans (2451) from Boulder City, NV 2 years ago

And you believe we live "unencumbered by the will of others?"

[-] 0 points by beautifulworld (20548) 2 years ago

But sealyon, they're not free. When you don't have economic freedom, you don't have any other freedom. It's all a ruse. You're "free," poor but "free." Lucky you. It's pure bull shit. Americans are wage slaves, nothing more, and that was exactly the plan of the wealthy and corporations to create wage slaves who think they're "free" and in the "greatest nation" on earth. Meanwhile they're being totally exploited. The wealthy and corporations have no respect for American workers and laugh their way to the bank.

[-] 1 points by 1sealyon (434) 2 years ago

The 36% voted yesterday for liberty over money. That sound honorable to me and it is something of an insult to call them poor, slaves, and the subject of bemusement.

[-] 2 points by beautifulworld (20548) 2 years ago

It's an insult to workers and children. Liberty means absolutely nothing if your economic system has a noose around your neck. In fact it is a ruse that the wealthy and corporations use to keep the American people in line.

[-] 1 points by 1sealyon (434) 2 years ago

To some liberty is more important than economic safety.

" Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." - Ben Franklin

Population of WI: 5,711,767

Number of Public Union Members in WI: 126,900

That is the 2% taking from the 98%. Specious liberty indeed!

[-] 0 points by beautifulworld (20548) 2 years ago

It is a specious liberty that requires one to live within an economic and political system that works for only a few at the expense of the rest.

[-] 0 points by friendlyopposition (574) 2 years ago

You don't really think people like declining wages or eroding rights. Just because all you see is this theory about "rugged individualism" doesn't mean that is necessarily the answer.

It could be as Sealyon said in that people don't like being forced to join the union. In fact, when given the option to be in the union in Wisconsin, the rolls dropped by half to two-thirds. Again - the people have spoken, and they don't see the need for unions. I am a public sector worker in a right to work state, and we are doing just fine without them.

[-] 2 points by votasaurus (62) 2 years ago

I want to be in a union, but I don't get that choice because I'm in a "right to work" state. That means that the boss has complete control over me, AND I have no leverage because I'm just a replaceable "human resource" for the company who is only worth how much money I can generate for someone else. Without a union you have no power. You have to eat shit if the boss tells you to, or try to start your own business and just wait to get crushed by Wal*Mart and the dumb masses that favor "low prices" (at the cost of their jobs) instead of local quality.

[-] 1 points by friendlyopposition (574) 2 years ago

Could it be that people are also aware of the negative aspects of unions. When unions get greedy (maybe just union leadership...) and they make unreasonable demands on the company/government - then everyone suffers. If the company/government cannot meet the demands of the unions then people suffer and people lose jobs. I think that is one of the things that the citizens - including union members - were seeing in Wisconsin. It also had a negative impact on the automotive industries and airlines - as a few examples.

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (28460) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Unions DO need to rethink their position - union members need to rethink their positions. They also need to find a way to unite with non-union workers - to push for all workers rights. The union hierarchy needs to be brought back to reality with pay limits and retirement packages that match their least members.

Unions can be very beneficial for ALL. Unions have in the past been very beneficial to ALL. Like any organization/institution even like government they need to be policed by their members so as not to be corrupted.

[-] 2 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

the companies want to remain in control of their minions

[-] 1 points by geo (2638) from Concord, NC 2 years ago

The arlines too, really?

Safety issues have been a long standing problem with the airlines. Since deregulation, pilot work hours and schedules have been a major concern. Pilots have been found asleep at the controls from overwork. Finally, when the body count became too high, with the main drive coming from the unions the FAA took action this year:

http://www.sleepfoundation.org/alert/faa-issues-final-rule-pilot-fatigue

[-] 1 points by votasaurus (62) 2 years ago

Isn't that what ANY form of hierarchy boils down to in the end? Those at the very top have all of the resources and abuse their power to marginalize the ones below them?

What I'm talking about are unions, not more hierarchy. Actual groups of people in a flat power structure that use direct democracy to determine how much they are worth as a group. Why does there need to be dues? Why does there need to be union bosses? There's no need for that, just a group of people that band together to get better rights for ALL workers.

Right now a few people get to determine what everyone is worth. They have all of the power because they can just replace us if we don't agree with the low wages that they want to pay us. As long as there are no unions and high unemployment we are slaves to the people who have money.

[-] -1 points by JS93 (-321) 2 years ago

No, it can't be that Wisconsin or any state were seeing "Greedy" Unions. What was "seen" was a Union made thriving middle-class by the Greed-addled in the 1% who then laid a plan to rape and pillage it. And it still works.

[Removed]

[-] -2 points by JS93 (-321) 2 years ago

"Right to work" is an evil tactic devised by the Right to undermine workers, Unions and the Middle-class (it's very difficult to pillage people who are organized and have resources). With a "Liberty" and "Freedom" laced name to disguise it's true nature. Like "Right to Life."

Nothing "is" as Sealyon says, he's a RW shill playing you guys into a RW frame. Don't be such suckers. It's painful to watch.

Ask your selves: If Citizens United Won, what did the Citizens United money buy?? Hmmm?? Some Union Votes, maybe?? Ever hear of selling ice to Eskimos?? Did you know that the Germans voted the Nazis into power??

And this "nobody owes you nuthin" bunkum. Jeezuzzz! Can I sell you a bridge? We are not lone wolfs, we are societies! The price for a civilized society is taxes. Ring a bell? And the advantage of a society is that you get stuff (roads, schools, internet, you know). The idea is to continuously strive to make the society better, and some societies are better than others and they do better than others. Nobody is demanding a TV or a house payment from their neighbor, that is a Strawman Argument; a favorite tactic of the Right, like Recrimination and Pettifogging. Don't fall for this simple-Simon RW BS, I'm watching.

[-] 1 points by beautifulworld (20548) 2 years ago

Happy for you. One half of all Americans earn less than $26,000 per year. The Walker vote certainly shows the failure of unions. However, it does not represent a lack of needs on the part of labor. American workers used to be the pride of this nation. The wealthy and corporations have succeeded in making the American worker the shame of this nation. If you're just a lowly worker than that is your fault. This is the message the wealthy and capitalists use to exploit people. Shame them into silence. Shame them into not asking for rights. Shame them into accepting declining wages and benefits.

[-] 1 points by friendlyopposition (574) 2 years ago

I couldn't reply below - but I actually don't disagree with you about re-organizing labor. I think if we can contain greed on BOTH sides of the table, in the end - we could come up with a plan that is in the best interests of the companies and the workers.

[-] 0 points by beautifulworld (20548) 2 years ago

Bingo. We should never equate labor to unions. Labor stands on it's own as an important function of our economic system and nothing should stop it from seeking fairness. Fairness for labor would benefit all Americans including the capitalists/companies.

[-] -2 points by JS93 (-321) 2 years ago

When Union workers get $Million Bonuses and $Multimillion Golden Parachutes, and only then, we can talk about the "greed on BOTH sides of the table"! Jeeezuzzz!

[-] 1 points by friendlyopposition (574) 2 years ago

I guess you're right and 53% of voters in Wisconsin are wrong.

I think we will see organized labor continuing to lose ground in the US. People view unions as a big part of the problem.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

i heard a 60% turn out

so 32% of the voters

[-] 1 points by beautifulworld (20548) 2 years ago

Like I said, unions have clearly failed, but that doesn't mean that labor should just walk away. Labor needs to re-organize in some other way. I'm not sure how, but just because unions don't work in no way means workers' rights should continue to be eroded. Wake up people.

[-] -3 points by JS93 (-321) 2 years ago

Because Citizens United secret money can sway Union Votes and sell ice to Eskimos.

[-] 1 points by 1sealyon (434) 2 years ago

It does not sound like the 36% are ashamed. They are more courageous than contrite.

[-] 4 points by beautifulworld (20548) 2 years ago

That's right. It's a false hubris to protect them from their shame if they can't make it on their own. They won't ask for anything because they've been taught that asking is shameful. They are "rugged individuals." Don't tread on my right to one day be like Donald Trump! I have that right, you know, even if my wages and pension and health benefits are being eroded. You've convinced me that my right to be like Donald Trump one day is more important than my right to fair labor laws that are enforced right now.

[-] 0 points by 1sealyon (434) 2 years ago

The vote by the 36% seems to demonstarte that they are sacrificing personal benefit for the basic human right of liberty. Money (like the money that a Donald Trump might have) is not as important to them as freedom.

[-] 3 points by beautifulworld (20548) 2 years ago

The personal right of liberty is pure b.s. when you are being economically exploited. It's brainwashing. The wealthy and corporations are laughing their way to the bank.

There is NO liberty if you live in a political system that is bought and paid for by a very few people.

[-] -3 points by JS93 (-321) 2 years ago

Hence we now have Wage Slaves (free from old slavery room and board expenses) with all the "Freedom" they can or cannot stand. "Freedom" to starve to death, live under a bridge, get dinner from 7-11, suffer without healthcare, freeze in the winter, fry in the summer, wash up at the river, etc. etc. Because their "Freedom" is more important than money to "them." B (fucking) S!!

[-] -3 points by JS93 (-321) 2 years ago

Nothing "is" as Sealyon says, he's a RW shill playing you guys into a RW frame. Don't be such suckers. It's painful to watch.

Ask your selves: If Citizens United Won, what did the Citizens United money buy?? Hmmm?? Some Union Votes, maybe?? Ever hear of selling ice to Eskimos?? Did you know that the Germans voted the Nazis into power??

And this "nobody owes you nuthin" bunkum. Jeezuzzz! Can I sell you a bridge? We are not lone wolfs, we are societies! The price for a civilized society is taxes. Ring a bell? And the advantage of a society is that you get stuff (roads, schools, internet, you know). The idea is to continuously strive to make the society better, and some societies are better than others and they do better than others. Nobody is demanding a TV or a house payment from their neighbor, that is a Strawman Argument; a favorite tactic of the Right, like Recrimination and Pettifogging. Don't fall for this simple-Simon RW BS, I'm watching.

[-] 1 points by 1sealyon (434) 2 years ago

No one is asking for a house payment? We are at 10 million home bail outs and counting. Many of these are McMansion mortgages for people that over bought and don't want to pay for their mistake. They want you to pay for it.

[-] -3 points by JS93 (-321) 2 years ago

Yes, every foreclosure involves a homeowner not paying his mortgage. But every foreclosure also involves a bank that made the loan. And usually another bank, or several more, that profited from securitizing the loan. And still another bank, or several, that profited from servicing the loan. Together, those banks have done three things that created the massive glut of foreclosures choking America's legal systems and laying waste to its real estate markets:

They knowingly made millions of loans doomed for foreclosure as soon as the check was written.
They deliberately and/or incompetently failed to modify many salvageable mortgages.
They were so careless with their paperwork and processes that they've undermined the rule of law, clouded the title to untold numbers of properties and complicated the processing of the massive backlog of foreclosures that hurts the economically crucial real estate market.

Wall Street wants US to pay for their gambling losses, and we paid it. There's the rip off, see Inside Job!

[-] 1 points by friendlyopposition (574) 2 years ago

What's your point? People pay taxes. I get that. Roads, schools, etc. No problem. What I'm not in favor of is paying more and more and more taxes to a government that mismanages my money.

And I didn't say Citizens United wins. I said Citizens united win - meaning the citizens that came together and voted won.

[+] -4 points by JS93 (-321) 2 years ago

[-] 4 points by bensdad (2427) 1 day ago

'"citizens united" is the name of the supreme court decision that gave us super-pacs and made it even easier for the 1% to buy our democracy.

"it is a very complicated case, that was decided by the crapitalist justices with the same logic that decided bush v Gore that gave us bush/cheney/rummy & the Iraq war -

"they knew who the owners are"

So you weren't addressing the topic of the Thread you posted on? Weird!

My point: Sealyin was parroting some particularly fallacious RW talking points. Taxes are lowest in decades. The two bogus wars, tax cuts to the wealthy, Wall Street bank heist, and corporate and rich tax evasions are just a few of the biggest examples of treasury depleters and epic money mismanagement. Go sic 'em, tiger!

Untold, secret, formerly illegal, Citizens United slush funds and dirty GOP tricks trumped the democratic election process for the governorship of WI. But despite the outrageous disadvantages, WI democracy and Dems still won the senate!

[-] 1 points by SparkyJP (1646) from Westminster, MD 2 years ago

Elections could be rigged ....................... this possibility can't be discounted and would explain this phenomenon.

[Removed]

[-] -1 points by peacup (-44) from Murray, KY 2 years ago

They're NOT card carrying members. If they want to support themselves, they HAVE to be union members. That doesn't mean they do it willingly.

I don't know where you get the idea that everyone is a union drone and believes in all the leftist BS the union forces them to support through paycheck confiscation of union dues .

[-] 1 points by 1sealyon (434) 2 years ago

Maybe these union folks that voted for Walker are not motivated solely by money and personal benefit? Maybe they are motivated by values that are more important to them than money?

[-] -1 points by peacup (-44) from Murray, KY 2 years ago

Are you saying the left doesn't have the values the 36% support? If so, this is probably true also.

[-] 0 points by 1sealyon (434) 2 years ago

I think that folks on the left value freedom, but they think that making people equal is more important than liberty.

Maybe freedom is more important to the 36% than money. Maybe liberty is the most important thing to them.

I think that the 36% are heroes to their cause. They are going forward Once More Unto the Breach. They are willing to make personal sacrifices in the cause of liberty; a rare quality these days.

[-] 0 points by peacup (-44) from Murray, KY 2 years ago

The left doesn't value freedom. It values the nanny state.

[-] 1 points by 1sealyon (434) 2 years ago

Well, I don't believe that freedom is considered to be of no value, but it is not high on the list of priorities of left leaning folks. Equal outcome is the most important goal. Everyone must be equal. The problem is that people are not the same height, the same sex, the same weight, have the same ambitions, parents, talents, values, etc.

People are not equal. It is just a fact, and no Gov edict will ever make me a guard for the Boston Celtics. (Maybe a security guard)

[-] 4 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

The left values freedom for the 99%. We don't want everyone to be equal.! We want to take our govt back from the corp 1%. We want to stop the exploitation by the 1%. The right advocates for the existing inequities that benefits the 1%. The right speaks against their own interests.

[-] 2 points by 1sealyon (434) 2 years ago

Why?

Half of the 99 % are in the group you label as right wing. Why do you suspect they speak against their self interest?

[-] 2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

Perhaps they have been misled. Perhaps they believe they will be helped by the 1% tinkling down on them. Perhaps they hate gays (thats a good one the right uses), Perhaps they hate immigrants (another good right wing wedge issue). Maybe they vote against their own interests because they want to stop abortions (religious issues are great wedge issues by the right), Perhaps they are against helping the poor. (somehow they don't think helping the poor is a religious issue) Perhaps they don't want to help minorities. (thats an oldie but a goodie). There are so many distractions. You pick one.

[-] 2 points by 1sealyon (434) 2 years ago

Another possibility:

The 36% believe that there is an inherent conflict of interest when Public Union Bosses and the Politicians that they spend $ billions to elect set the wages, benefits, and pensions that must be paid by the people of WI.

Population of WI: 5,711,767

Number of Public Union Members in WI: 126,900

That is the 2% taking from the 98%.

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

So these 126K working middle class people are the problem? LMFAO! And you have no problem with the small number of wealthy people sucking up more and more of Wi wealth. What a joke! You have been fooled, to be the tool, of the cruel criminals who prey on your fellow 99%.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

to the people of Wisconsin

[-] -3 points by JS93 (-321) 2 years ago

The Wall Street world economy collapse is the greed-addled few in the 1% robbing from the rest of the World's economies!... and the World's posterity!

[-] 2 points by 1sealyon (434) 2 years ago

36% of union workers voted for Walker yesterday.

[-] 1 points by flip (6775) 2 years ago

i agree

[-] 1 points by flip (6775) 2 years ago

The average state worker in Wisconsin makes about $54,000 ($53,703) with a pension of $24,500.

Minnesota public workers average about $57,000. ($56,866) and get a $26,000 pension.

[-] 1 points by 1sealyon (434) 2 years ago

I don't begrudge these people one nickel of their pay. I hope they make more!

The working folks are not the problem.

The problem is the corrupt conflict of interest between the millionaire, 1%, Union bosses and the 1% politicians that they bribe with campaign donations.

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

Good for them. they should make more. We should all make more.

[-] 1 points by 1sealyon (434) 2 years ago

I think that the 36% are part of the 99%.

The 36% value freedom more than money. Pretty courageous; a rare virtue these days.

[-] 4 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

Oh! My apologize. Got it. Why did they vote for Walker? Well, They were convinced that Wi problem was that public union workers were making too much money!, That their benefits were too generous. I think they were mistaken. The 36% were convinced for 6 mos with 30 million out of state money that public unions were the problem. But public unions had agreed to cuts already and in the past and Walker decided that the workers should lose their collective bargaining rights (that is a freedom no?) That was not a fiscal issue that was a political attempt to destroy a democratic contributer and supporter. The 36% were distracted from that fact. The 36% did not absorb the meaning of Walkers statement that he would "divide and conquer" workers, when he was discussing the "right to work state" supporting 1% republican contributer. The dems had a tough primary that only recently ended. The relied on Wi money mostly and only raised 4 million. The repubs raised almost 40 mil. The dems put up the same guy walker beat 2 years ago. There are many reasons for this mistake. But no excuses. Who know maybe Walker will be indicted and put in jail for his corruption then the 36% will know. He works for the 1% and against working american families (union and non union). He is a Koch head! The 36% missed that.

[-] 2 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

freedom of assembly

[-] 2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

The 36%. Who's that.?

[-] -3 points by JS93 (-321) 2 years ago

Perhaps the deifying "values" these celestial 36% so proudly poses will rub off on the Koch Bros and Walker who have clearly sold their souls to Satan via Citizens United!

[+] -4 points by JS93 (-321) 2 years ago

I wonder how much "Freedom" and "Liberty" all the Citizens United secret money purchased for Gov Walker? Nixon must be rolling in his grave with envy!!

[-] 1 points by 1sealyon (434) 2 years ago

What has Walker done to steal your liberty?

Walker objects to Union Bosses that bribe politicians with campaign funds and then negotiating contracts with those same politicians. Walker objects to corrupt politicians and Union Leaders that make more money than 99.9 % of the rest of the people.

I would expect that OWS would campaign for Walker, not against him.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

walker is yesterday's apology

Recall Walker * Democrats and Republicans conduct politician exchange and forgive union busters *

[+] -4 points by JS93 (-321) 2 years ago

Walker is the poster child for the "bribed and corrupt politician" who works exclusively for the Koch Brothers who purchased his governorship (totally usurping democracy). And the Koch Bros are the revenge, and descendants, of the banished in disgrace John Birch Society, an extremist RW fascist, McCarthy-sympathizer clan. And there objective is to privatize the world into a 1% Kings and 99% serfs feudal hell.

Why would anyone truly concerned with liberty and freedom, much less OWS, campaign for that? What people really want is Truth, Justice and the American way, which Snot, Koch and the RW are the abject Opposite of.

[-] -2 points by JS93 (-321) 2 years ago

I wonder if it is a devotion to masochism that motivated these "Union Folks" that Voted for the Koch Bros toady, Walker.

[-] 2 points by 1sealyon (434) 2 years ago

Why insult people just because they are different than you? They may have different values, opinions, cultures, geography, gender, or race. Their differences do not merit slurs and ridicule. Why not try instead to appreciate and show tolerance for the beliefs of the 36%?

[-] 2 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

I think Koch is like Blackwater or sometime (War for profit )

[-] 1 points by 1sealyon (434) 2 years ago

Most wars are about profit.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

taking resources by force

[-] 1 points by 1sealyon (434) 2 years ago

War is usually about taking something by force that we could not get by other means. Humans are tribal by nature and have warred on one another for a million years +. Why else do we cheer for our local football team? We may not know a single player but still yearn for our tribe to dominate.

[-] -3 points by JS93 (-321) 2 years ago

Why do you instinctively adjudicate that masochism is a "ridicule" or "slur"? What did a masochist ever do to you? Do you even know or associate with masochists?? None more intolerant of differences, more prejudice, more bigoted, more narcissistic, more hypocritical, and more recriminating than the (Ayn Rand) conservative right.

Quit denigrating and exploiting the Koch-Walker 36%!

[-] 1 points by 1sealyon (434) 2 years ago

When are the words masochist or taody ever used as compliments?

Bigotry in any form is repugnant.

[-] -3 points by JS93 (-321) 2 years ago

Different strokes for different folks! Liberals only condemn those who harm others unjustly. Like Nazis who were so evil because they engaged in self loathing. Many say the greed-addled few in the top 1% who are hoarding the country's wealth, to it's detriment, are able to commit such economical treachery against their own countrymen only by engaging in the same repugnant reasons that the Nazis did.

[-] 1 points by 1sealyon (434) 2 years ago

Not sure about self loathing nazis. They thought they were the master race. Pride may have actually been their down fall. It casued them to over reach. They may have won without the 2nd front.

I do agree there was an evil core group, some collaborating henchmen, and a lot of Germans too afraid to fight them.

Greed like pride is a personal character flaw and unchecked can doom you.

It is interesting that no one complains about the talent of a great singer but many are quick to condem the person with a talent for making money. The later was used by the nazis to justify the final solution.

[+] -5 points by JS93 (-321) 2 years ago

Wednesday, June 6, 2012 A billionaire can buy anything he wants

In exit polling done Tuesday during the Wisconsin recall, 18% of those who voted for the hard-right Republican Walker said they will vote for Obama in the Fall. How can this be? It seems $60 million in a relatively small state can really get your lies (I mean message) across.

One of the most popular ads run by the Republicans pounded on the idea that it was wrong to recall a governor that hasn’t committed a crime. A bold ad, or a perhaps a Freudian slip as he’s likely to be indicted any day, especially since 12 of his closest aids are already cooling their heels in jail. The premise of this ad was accepted by 25% of registered Democrats, Republicans simply don’t care if he’s committed a crime.

His billionaire masters purchased him an image as a bold, brave Governor who took on the difficult issues and balanced a budget that was $3.5 billion in the hole. All without cutting any jobs, or raising taxes. He really inherited a $40 million surplus that he gave away to corporations on the first day. The rest was also a bunch of lies, jobs will be slashed and taxes will skyrocket. Billions in debt is being kicked down the road while paying interest. But he was able to sell it as day for night. Rural voters that really turned out for him are now convinced that the greedy teachers all make $75,000 a year. Only about a 250% exaggeration. Next winter their roads probably won't be plowed, normally a big problem in the Great White North, but global warming should take care of that, courtesy of the Koch Brothers.

Even people who should know better accepted this nonsense with 35% of union households voting for their own throats to be cut. In the next few weeks the disaster Walker has made will start to impact locally. He was only the third Governor in 230 years of the United States to face a re-call, he might be the fourth as well. Okay, jail is more likely. On that point, ironically the re-call gave him a huge gift. Not only was his indictment put off until this Friday (a well placed rumor), but he is now able to transfer millions of campaign money to his legal defense fund. He can also buy counsel for his already indicted co-conspirators making it harder to flip them to State’s evidence. The Democrats did pick up one recalled Senate seat to gain the majority, so Walker’s agenda will be pulled up short. Now he can blame them for the damage he has caused.

The rightwing media has become obsessed with the “feud” between Obama and Clinton. They take no notice that Big Dog Clinton is been pulled up tight on his chain by Obama. The media said that yesterday in an interview on CNBC Clinton called for an extension of the Bush tax cuts for the rich, contrary to Obama policy.

Here is the quote they base this on, try to find the words “tax cuts”, “I don't have any problem with extending all of it now, including the current spending level,” Clinton said in his interview with Bartiromo. “They're still pretty low, the government spending levels. But I think they look high because there's a recession. So the taxes look lower than they really would be if we had two and a half, three percent growth. And the spending is higher than it would be if we had two and a half, three percent growth because there are so many people getting food stamps, so many people getting unemployment, so many people are Medicaid.”

If you actually read the whole thing, what he’s talking about is spending levels and doesn’t mention cutting taxes. A Clinton spokesman spelled it out as if there was any doubt, “…on extending the Bush tax cuts, as President Clinton has said many times before, he supported extending all of the cuts in 2010 as part of the budget agreement, but does not believe the tax cuts for the wealthiest Americans should be extended again.”

We have the best “liberal” media that right-wing billionaire money can buy. www.prairie2.com

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

I love how the managed that split in the vote

for d senators bit save r governor

bizarre no?

[-] 2 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

makes no sense

[Removed]

[-] 1 points by peacup (-44) from Murray, KY 2 years ago

Cuz they really don't share the views of union leadership. They HAVE to work under the union, but they don't do so willingly. They don't like having their union dues (taken from them against their will), used for policies they don't agree with and donated to political parties whose views they don't agree with.

They toil everyday under the union, but they don't do it willingly. They need jobs, so that's what they do, quietly everyday.

[-] -1 points by jbgramps (159) 2 years ago

Nope, It's pretty clear the people won. It wasn't a close vote. The people have spoken.

[-] 3 points by bensdad (8977) 2 years ago

the same people who REelected

the i am not a crook criminal

the i forget Iran Contra criminal

the i see wmds & mushroom clouds criminal

now its
the whose computer is it criminal

[-] 1 points by grapes (2912) 2 years ago

We really need to stop smoking these magical mushrooms. Could it be that our cesspool had leaked and fertilized them?

[-] -2 points by jbgramps (159) 2 years ago

You may be right. But that doesn't change the fact the people made their decision.

[-] -1 points by JS93 (-321) 2 years ago

Five radical Right ideologues in the SCOTUS "made their decision," called Citizens United.

[-] 0 points by friendlyopposition (574) 2 years ago

We are in agreement, gramps.

[-] 1 points by brightonsage (4494) 2 years ago

I'm sorry but we lost. I just heard that 40% of union members voted for Walker ( i.e.to give up their jobs, their healthcare and their pensions).

Time to pack your underwear, socks and the family album and start working on that getting that Visa,

[-] 1 points by stevebol (1269) from Milwaukee, WI 2 years ago

One day my boss told be to pick up a barrel of some coolant shit somewhere downtown. They wouldn't let me in the place so I call my boss and he say's, "Show them your union card." I thought, "a union card from a different employer from another state. WTF?" I'd thrown it away years ago. I told my boss, "I don't have any union card". He got mad and talked to somebody and they gave me the coolant. Wisconsin is a weird place. I wish people would stop trying to politicize WI and worry about your own state. We're stoopid.

[-] 1 points by nazihunter (215) 2 years ago

The name of the supreme court decision is 'citizens united(???)' Wow! Another fox dressed like a hen. Wait a second! I'm a repugnicon. I am zombie...zombie...zombie...master....how do i vote??? zombie...zombie...Wait until the zombies have no rights themselves and there are no more elections and their pay nose dives into the abyss and their benefits evaporate. Will they notice then? Or will they still be zombie.....zombiee....zombie....zombie.....

[-] 1 points by poltergist22 (159) 2 years ago

This is what we should do www.nationalday911.org

[-] 1 points by richardkentgates (3269) from Fort Walton Beach, FL 2 years ago

Money doesn't vote.

I am pretty disheartened about the ruling and the spending but ultimately, the votes are cast by people. Some don't need facts or ads because they aren't voting on the overt issues but rather they vote on religious or race issues. Some support a class based system because they need someone over them and bellow them to give them a sense of structure.

Those who vote based on misinformation can be reached only one way as we will never have the money to compete on their turf, we need to create our own turf and get people playing by a different set of rules for the game. We need to create that new platform.

http://occupywallst.org/forum/illumination-for-the-disillusioned/

[-] -2 points by JS93 (-321) 2 years ago

Citizens United Corporate investments are Votes, people!

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (28460) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

You want to explain that statement for those who may not know what you are proclaiming?

[-] 0 points by JusticeForTrayvon (34) 2 years ago

Yeah! Free speech is over rated! Down with freedom!