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Forum Post: Another Afghanistan Disaster

Posted 2 years ago on March 11, 2012, 7:09 p.m. EST by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

Who would have thought in 08 we elected such a war monger?

PS- 15,000 contractors/mercenaries/drones in Baghdad is not and end to the conflict.

Please stop bombing us. Sincerly, the people of Pakistan, Yemen, Somolia, Libya, Iraq and Afghanistan.

66 Comments

66 Comments


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[-] 2 points by shadz66 (19985) 9 months ago

''Hedges - Jeremy Hammond Exposed State's Plan to Criminalize Democratic Dissent'' (Video & Transcript) :

"Without figures like Jeremy Hammond, Edward Snowden, Chelsea Manning, Julian Assange, Barrett Brown, there is no free press." & where you at too - on this and other issues ?!

qui tacet consentire ...

[-] 2 points by shadz66 (19985) 10 months ago

''Please stop bombing us'' ! Yep !! That's about right !!!

Thus, watch ''Unmanned : America's Drone Wars''

cave - bellum se ipsum alet ...

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[-] 2 points by shadz66 (19985) 10 months ago

''Had John McCain won the election, it is difficult to imagine such widespread support, particularly among liberal Democrats, for some of the very counterterrorism policies that Obama implemented. As individuals, we must all ask whether we would support the same policies -- the expansion of drone strikes, the empowerment of Joint Special Operations Command (JSOC), the use of the State Secrets Privilege, the use of indefinite detention, the denial of habeas corpus rights, the targeting of U.S. citizens without charge or trial -- if the commander in chief was not our candidate of choice.

''But beyond the partisan lens, the policies implemented by the Obama administration will have far-reaching consequences. Future U.S. presidents -- Republican or Democratic -- will inherit a streamlined process for assassinating enemies of America, perceived or real. They will inherit an executive branch with sweeping powers, rationalized under the banner of national security.'' from :

And you want to burn books ! Sheesh !! Seems you're up for bensdad and similar Neocons' ''Clash Of Civilisations'' Perpetual War Rationale !!! Read Scahill's piece and watch the You-Tube video above - if you dare ... and ''get back to me'' - if you like.

fiat lux et fiat pax ...

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[-] 2 points by shadz66 (19985) 9 months ago

In The U$A, Scahill is one of the best journalists you have - so, which bit is ''bullshit'' exactly ?! Yep, I'm a ''partisan'' ... for peace and against Neoliberal Economics AND Neocon Imperialism !! You however, seem to be a faux radical and pseudo-revolutionary who has actually swallowed the whole 'Clash Of Civilisations' Neocon Perpetual War Rationale & The Corporate US War Machine chalks up another sucker, who swallows another 'alien other' crap story and chooses to act scared to justify his anger !!!

WFT is your point putting up the video of the brutal murder of Daniel Pearl ?! Does your cherry picked horror somehow justify something - if only in your own mind ?!! Have you video of Noor Aziz, 8 years old when killed by a drone in Pakistan ; or Zayda Ali Nasser, dead at seven from a drone strike in Yemen ; or Abeer Qassim Hamza Al Janabi - the innocent 14 year old girl raped and set alight by US troops in Mahmudiya, Iraq - ''I wasn't thinking these people were humans'' one of the soldiers, one Steven Green, said of his Iraqi victims - or d'you have any video of Sergeant Robert Bales who massacred 16 people in Afghanistan ?!!! Is there any point in trading tales of horror and depravity & who's killing who and where ?

Fuck you and your one sided ''track record'' and your warped reality and propagandised prejudices !!! Of course I abhor and condemn any and all violence from Muslims but I am aware of 'action & reaction' too.

Either you're for The 99%, irrespective of creed or colour and for Universal Peace and Justice For All ... or you're not !!! Faux-liberal clap trap doesn't cut it Dog and your 'Zen' is way out of whack, imo. + see :

I am ''allergic'' to gun loving, war mongers and subscribers to exceptionalism who talk of guns, shooting and death btw so it's probably just as well I live where I do. I hate conservatism & accuse u of just that !

fiat lux et fiat pax ...

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[-] 4 points by shadz66 (19985) 9 months ago

Uber-Conservatives - the mthrfkng Saudis (arch US allies for 90 years and it is NOT racist to detest The 'Royal' family) ) are right at the heart of the malaise of the Islamic Body Politic but alas, that really is an amazing last line Dog !!! Irrespective of the truth of that - have you ever heard of Luis Posada Carrilles or The School Of The America's at Fort Benning, GA ?!! Is what is sauce for the goose also sauce for the gander & wtf did the long suffering people of Afghanistan have to do with 9/!! ?! Resources, hydro-carbon pipelines and Imperial Hubris is a witches brew dude, so stop supping it and swallowing MSM B-S too.

You leave me almost speechless Dog. Even 'The Hill-Billy Taliban' love their children dude so consider :

Listen (New ICH link) and read (link to an old OWS-forum comment) and open and soften your heart ; harden your head ; then connect the two Dog and then try to reassemble what's left of your 'Zen' ~{~

pax et lux ; hic et ubique ...

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[-] 2 points by shadz66 (19985) 9 months ago

And Oswald was the sole shooter !!! Seems like ''you've bought'' THE OFFICIAL ''conspiracy theory'' - & I didn't forget ... I never really knew !! But what else would I expect from a self declared ''conservative'', lol !

I don't go on about 9/!! too much really but here's my sole offering on the matter fyi :

You do get just how easily I could flip all those words after ''Honestly'' and flip them back at you, right ? Have you heard of Gen. Albert Stubbelbine btw ? Anyway, I'm tired and want to speak with my girl so good night dude as I'm already on my Tuesday now (not that GF would believe that tho' lolol).

Whatever Dog ... you Dems and 'Conservative Liberals' really crack me up sometimes but better that than fear and loathing, right ? ~{:-)

pax ...

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[-] 2 points by shadz66 (19985) 9 months ago

Re. Oswald, near to the 50th anniversary of the JFK slaying, I was trying to be ironic although irony sometimes veers too close to sarcasm. But I get your point ... I think, lol. Further consider :"Citizens have to fight against the suppression of information about affairs of essential importance for the public. Those who speak the truth are not committing a crime." from :

How US 'National Security' trumps everyone else's security is a bit baffling and insidious and frankly 'terror is as terror does' but The US-MIC needs as many 'cassus belli' as it can get to justify its humungous expense & the 'security apparatus' while the rest of the world, just looks on aghast.

oderint dum metuant ?

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[-] 2 points by shadz66 (19985) 9 months ago

''Oliver Stone on 50th Anniversary of JFK Assassination & the Untold History of the United States'' :

fiat justitia ruat caelum ...

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[-] 2 points by shadz66 (19985) 9 months ago

With the assassination's 50th anniversary now not far off, fyi I append on this 'Remembrance Sunday' :

A coup d'etat that still unfolds and holds The US in the dark grip of The Bankster/Corporate Oligarchs.

respice, adspice, prospice ...

[-] 0 points by HCHC4 (-28) 9 months ago

All of these war numb, self indulged megalomaniacs are going to be the same ones that are so shocked when this war comes home, as it always does.

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 9 months ago

''Jeremy Scahill "First Obama Authorized Drone Strike In Yemen Killed 36 Women & Children!" (Video) :

''In Yemen an entire village was destroyed by US military strikes in 2009, and in Mogadishu Somalia a US kill list is executed by local war lords.'' Sadly War is Big Business and The U$A is in the business of war in ways few at home fully get.

fiat lux ...

[-] -1 points by HCHC4 (-28) 9 months ago

I love people comparing union legislation with bombs shredding people.

Neither is good, but when the latter comes home its going to make the first look like a walk in the park.

[-] 4 points by shadz66 (19985) 9 months ago

"Wounds of Waziristan" - Exclusive Broadcast of New Film on Pakistanis Haunted by U.S. Drone War'' (Video Documentary - DemocracyNow!) :

Not totally sure I get your point re. 'War coming home' but am assuming you mean damaged vets.

fiat pax ...

[-] 2 points by shadz66 (19985) 9 months ago

“We call on these companies to do the right thing and halt their involvement with mass surveillance and hope the OECD will investigate what steps, if any, the companies took to defend the human rights of their customers.”

Good link from a good site. The UK spy agencies & GCHQ in particular have been utterly complicit with what The NSA are up to and have been for a rather long time now, ie have you ever heard of ''Echelon''? ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECHELON ) and we should realise how long this has been going on and how it's now really about commercial, economic & political 'intelligence' rather than that chimera and canard of ''Terrorism''. Most Europeans have grown up with variations on the theme of 'terrorism'. It did not stop these societies and turn them totally into surveillance, security states then & we should resist this now.

While all this mularkey plays itself out, nutters are still being nutters :

e tenebris ...

[-] 1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 9 months ago

"Complicit"?

Hell, UK agencies are in the forefront.

They have been for years.

France, Germany and Russia too.

The US just gets all the press.

[-] 3 points by shadz66 (19985) 9 months ago

Don't kid yourself. The U$A was and is the predominant player here. Also fyi, see :

fiat lux ...

[-] 1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 9 months ago

Elections at risk?

Florida proved that a while ago.

In fact when you think about it, so did Watergate.

This however, does not negate the simple fact that those other "powers" I mentioned are also very much a part of the surveillance state of things these days.

Hell, if I'm not mistaken, London led the way on public surveillance.

I don't mind you making a scapegoat of the US, but don't pretend the others are innocent.

They are not.

[-] 2 points by shadz66 (19985) 9 months ago

As I said up there shooz - ''The UK spy agencies & GCHQ in particular have been utterly complicit with what The NSA are up to and have been for a rather long time now, ie have you ever heard of ''Echelon''? ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECHELON )''. The UK has the most cameras per capita and London is now perhaps the major global surveillance hot spot & btw, mate - your use of ''scapegoat'' indicates a certain conditioned subconscious identification with TPTB perhaps.

US elections have been stolen, suppressed and gerrymandered and infiltrated by Bankers, Corporations and The War Machine to such a huge extent, that barely 50% of people vote in the four yearly POTUS (S)election - let alone other (s)elections and the canard of democracy in The U$A is increasingly clearly a demoCRAZY deMOCKERYcy. There are democratic deficits in every country in the world .. tho' The Icelanders and erstwhile bezerkers as well as the likes of Mondragon, now show the way for The 99%.

The illusory choice between tweedledumb and tweddledumber, grinning at the US from either side of the same corporate controlled crooked coin ... is not just 'duopoly' - it's the darkest fkn joke ever possibly.

Sometimes the differences between The USUK models are interesting. In the UK there's a right wing coalition with a not as right wing (so called) Labour Party (but with a real history in Co-Ops and Trade Unionism) as the official opposition but there are 10 different parties represented in parliament. Bernie Sanders by his very existence, never mind what he says - shows what The American 99% need & want.

We're all in a generational struggle and it's all about the kids and the future for a economically debt free, ecologically sustainable, humane common future for us all. This is OWS because we've been Occupied BY Wall Street & The 'City of London' for too long. The 99% need to reclaim Their Democracy, period.

pax ...

[-] 1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 9 months ago

Thanks, I guess, for leaving the duopoly question perfectly unclear and thereby proving my point....again. It's nothing but an excuse.

Bernie, for instance, is a perfect example of why it's not true.

Our "friend" in Cleveland, was gerrymandered out by (R)epelican'ts.

I went over the realities of Mondragon some time ago. At that time I was vilified, but with the bankruptcy of their appliance division, I was proven correct.

Mondragon, is NO excuse to ignore the importance of existing labor unions.

That's the point I made at the time and I still hardily and heartfuly believe it.

Good on you for finally starting a conversation on the UK. I hope you continue in that vein.

You really have no feel for the right wing here in the US.

http://www.truthdig.com/eartotheground/item/republicans_use_dirty_tricks_to_stay_in_power_20131111

Nor what the libe(R)tarians in Canada are attempting.

http://www.vancouverobserver.com/opinion/joe-olivers-keystone-xl-push-washington-plagued-brazen-false-claims

I really don't know why so many have an issue accepting the reality of libe(R)tarian influence, as both a philosophy and political movement.

It's the elephant in the Worlds sitting room.

[-] 5 points by shadz66 (19985) 9 months ago

''Parliament operates much as Congress in the United States does : the lefthand glove puppet argues with the righthand glove puppet, but neither side will turn around to face the Corporate Capital that controls almost all our politics. This is why the assertion that parliamentary (and Congressional!) democracy has been reduced to a self-important farce has resonated so widely ...

''So I don't blame people for giving up on politics. I haven't given up yet, but I find it ever harder to explain why. When a state-corporate nexus of power has bypassed democracy and made a mockery of the voting process, when an unreformed political funding system ensures that parties can be bought and sold, when politicians of the three main parties {Only Two In U$A!} stand and watch as public services are divvied up by a grubby cabal of privateers, what is left of this system that inspires us to participate?

''Lobbying is the least of it : corporate interests have captured the entire democratic process. No wonder so many have given up on politics.'' from :

I agree with you about Koch/Rand Libertarians. In fact I know for a fact that we agree on far more [Neoliberal Economix ; Dark Neocon Imperialism ; ALEC ; The MIC ; Drone wars ; Corporations ; Banksterism ; Austerity] than we disagree on. Never forget that I draw a huge line between decent left/liberal Dem Voters & The Corporate Bankster Bank Rolled Party Machine & Pols in Congress.

I agree with lots you say and thanx for the good links. I abhor Rand inspired Libertarianism, cultist 'Austrian Economics', Neoliberals, Neocons and much that The USUK continuum does to its own populations and to people abroad. I'm going to focus on our numerous similarities and not our few semantic and philosophical differences though you're wrong about Dennis Kucinich, I assure you :

We both speak as we see it and from our own experience and will never convince the other about some things but can and do agree or at least overlap, on many things and this has been an interesting thread but neither of us need be philosophical totalitarians insisting on 100% agreement, all we need do is be clear to ourselves and note our common denominators.

It's all about The Kids ; The 99% ; Peace Through Justice ; Release From Debt Bondage and an Ecologically Sustainable, Free and Democratic - Global Future for all ... imo ~*~

OWS continues to seed for a better tomorrow for all !

We Need A Revolutionary Permaculture !!

Resistance Is Fertile !!!

consilio et animis ...

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[-] 5 points by shadz66 (19985) 9 months ago

''The Time Has Come for $15 Minimum Wage'', by Marc Vorpahl :

You were never a friend of Occupy, Trashy, you're too much of a narcissist for that and you essentially epitomise Wm. Blake's line : ''Truth told with bad intent - beats all the lies you can invent'' !!!

temet nosce ...

[-] 1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 9 months ago

I'm not sure what you meant by, "you're wrong about Dennis Kucinich".

He was gerrymandered out by the (R)epelican'ts. That's just one of the ways they "work".

What's important to notice here, is that we heartily disagreed, yet never resorted to insults.

Thanks for that and solidarity shadz.

[-] 3 points by shadz66 (19985) 9 months ago

Re. Dennis Kucinich, we'll have to agree to let him be the authority about what really happened to him I think, so please watch the You-Tube link above where he clearly explains to Abby Martin that he holds the Democratic Party machine responsible for what happened to him in Ohio.

Yes, we did our best to be civil and either not be overly provocative or if so, not to rise to it unduly. It'd be good if GF 'especially' - could take a hint from that but here on hchc's old thread, I also have to make a request to TPTB here, to cease & desist any more overly easy banning of & the reinstatement of such posters like hchc, gnomunny, Odin etc. because I'm not happy about not seeing them here these days.

It should be possible to disagree - even vehemently but remain civil as our commonalities are important too & the agon matters, so ''soap opera'' or otherwise, we need such OWS-centric people here in order to foster more dialogue & engagement, irrespective of personal issues and foibles. Finally, in solidarity :

pax ...

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[-] 5 points by shadz66 (19985) 9 months ago

No one talks about 9/!! more than you Trashy and your preference for 'The Official Conspiracy Theory' is duly noted ... yet again. I'm only impressed by the speed of your typing but nothing else and my sole offering on the matter of 9/!! was :

Feel free to revive it and take me on there if you like & who's this ''we'', you're referring to ?! Lol !! Listening to the voices in your head again, 'Johnny-No-Mates' OR ... do you mean - you and that Montreal based, 'Bank of Canada' cabal headed by Pierre Fournier ?!!!

verum ex absurdo ...

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[-] 3 points by shadz66 (19985) 9 months ago

Go read ''Auguries Of Innocence'' by William Blake and while you're at it - see if you can find evidence of steel reinforced concrete structures (massively over-engineered to cope with hurricanes and aeroplane collisions) - collapsing due to fires burning for less than one hour in the case of WTC1&2 and re WTC7 - without even the collision factor. If you can do that - then apply yourself to getting 'Building Codes & Regs.' changed across the world because they would then be all negated by your findings.

You love arguing T. You live for it. You are a loner in search of community but your Momma never taught you to play nice and share your toys - if indeed she taught you anything at all. You are a narcissistic snob and neofeudalist who serves something other than The 99%. Want to be outraged ? Try this :

et nosce te ipsum ...

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[-] 3 points by shadz66 (19985) 9 months ago

Nope. My disdain for you Trashy, is 100% based on your behaviour and on what you have said here over the last two years. I don't forget and I don't forgive. You're hung on your own petard but I still don't call for your banning but you've driven the mods here to utter distraction and despair sometimes so that is what will happen again soon but I'll still use my reply to put the following cross-references on the record here :

Like a broken clock, you may be right twice a day quite coincidentally but also like a broken clock - you just can't be trusted and ergo, are both useless and simultaneously dangerous too. Now piss off to Bali.

ad iudicium ...

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[-] -3 points by GirlFriday (17435) 9 months ago

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (14979) 54 minutes ago

Re. Dennis Kucinich, we'll have to agree to let him to be the authority about what really happened to him I think, so please watch the You-Tube link above where he clearly explains to Abby Martin that he holds the Democratic Party machine responsible for what happened to him in Ohio.

Yes, we did our best to be civil and either not be overly provocative or if so, not to rise to it unduly. It'd be good if GF and others could take a hint from that but here on hchc's old thread, I also have to make a request to TPTB here, to cease and desist any overly easy banning of & reinstatement of such posters like hchc, gnomunny, Odin etc. because I'm not happy about not seeing them here these days.

It should be possible to disagree - even vehemently but remain civil as our commonalities are important too & the agon matters, so ''soap opera'' or otherwise, we need such OWS-centric people here in order to foster more dialogue & engagement, irrespective of personal issues and foibles. Finally, in solidarity :


Pfffttt.............

[-] 2 points by shadz66 (19985) 9 months ago

Did I say ''GF and others'' ?! Strike that & replace with 'GF especially' !! Even you can't want a forum just full of delusional or dejected & discouraged Dem duopoly-deniers, nodding at each other, right ?!!! + fyi :

''Big companies got bigger and bigger, to the point where today, 10 corporations control almost everything we buy.

''This is not good for our economy, and it's not good for our democracy.

''When corporations have all of the power, you and I have no say in the American democracy.

''Ecosystems that are broad and diverse are resilient while those that are narrow and unbalanced are fragile, and it's the same with economies.

''It's time to bring diversity back to America's economic web of life, and we can do that by bringing back the Sherman Anti-Trust Act, so competition can return to the American marketplace.''

~

By Thom Hartmann of RT's ''The Big Picture'' [ http://rt.com/shows/big-picture/ ] and also consider :

It's actually now time for much more than just that (& inter alia Universal Healthcare, End Of Empire, Sustainable Development, Debt Free Education, Debt Jubilee etc.) but reinstating SATA back would 'mos def' be a start - but face it .. 'ReThuglicans' will never do it & very sadly, NOR will Democraps !!! Only a grass-roots bottom up, 99% Mass Movement will agitate for that !! That's why we're here, rt ?!

multum in parvo ...

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[-] 1 points by HCHC4 (-28) 9 months ago

Looks like we are in another "lesser of two evils" mindset in that its all

"ya, its fucked up, but the shit you did was fucked up too!"

And further down the toilet we swirl.

[-] 4 points by shadz66 (19985) 9 months ago

"America's Duopoly of Money in Politics and Manipulation of Public Opinion" by Charles Ferguson (Dir. 'Inside Job') :

I've got to say that this attritional stinkling of your comments is getting very boring indeed. Also, don't give in to exasperation or apathy - don't be a pessimist ... be a ''possiblist'' and take heart from this :

per aspera ad astra ...

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[-] -1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 9 months ago

http://occupywallst.org/forum/another-afghanistan-disaster/#comment-1011790

Yes by all means, get the money out, but this had nothing to do with anything in the post you said this in response to, and it did absolutely NOTHING to lend veracity to the duopoly paradigm.

What it did do was completely ignore the creeping libe(R)tarianism that I described and you claim to understand.

Look around England and I'm sure you will find it there too.

Anyways, thanks for proving my point.

There is no duopoly.

[-] 3 points by shadz66 (19985) 9 months ago

Being pedantic about semantics to the end is all very well but the way that this thread has panned out means anything more I say will simply be repetition. IF you require ''veracity to the duopoly paradigm'' ... just look around the US or reappraise this thread & see what is before your eyes. Maybe this will help :

  • How is the US NOT a duopoly between two old, established, political parties ?

  • Is the existence of Bernie Sanders (I - Vt), the exception that proves the rule ?

  • What does it really say about 'The Democratic Party Establishment', that people like Dennis Kucinich & Cynthia McKinney etc have been gerrymandered out of the party ?

Perhaps this is a better way for you to reflect on what is going on in front of your eyes. IF there is no ''duopoly'' then exactly what is there shooz ? The only answer possible is 'Monopoly' imo but feel free to explain any alternate answer. Are you suggesting that The Democratic Party is the answer to OWS ?!!!

Direct questions : D'you believe that Hitlary Clinton has the real interests of The US (let alone, Global) 99% at heart ? Will she undertake policies with 'The General Welfare' clause of The US Constitution in mind ? OR will she serve Corporate, 1% & 0.01% agenda of hegemony, austerity and Banksterocracy ?

Believe your points to have been 'proved' or otherwise, I will let readers judge the cut and thrust here as you and I can hardly claim objectivity in the matter, lol but please read that Nader article that I linked to embedded in that link in your comment above and also please reflect upon :

e tenebris, lux ...

[-] 3 points by beautifulworld (20483) 9 months ago

I find the "Declaration of the Occupation of the City of New York" helpful:

"As we gather together in solidarity to express a feeling of mass injustice, we must not lose sight of what brought us together. We write so that all people who feel wronged by the corporate forces of the world can know that we are your allies.

As one people, united, we acknowledge the reality: that the future of the human race requires the cooperation of its members; that our system must protect our rights, and upon corruption of that system, it is up to the individuals to protect their own rights, and those of their neighbors; that a democratic government derives its just power from the people, but corporations do not seek consent to extract wealth from the people and the Earth; and that no true democracy is attainable when the process is determined by economic power. We come to you at a time when corporations, which place profit over people, self-interest over justice, and oppression over equality, run our governments. We have peaceably assembled here, as is our right, to let these facts be known.

They have taken our houses through an illegal foreclosure process, despite not having the original mortgage.
They have taken bailouts from taxpayers with impunity, and continue to give Executives exorbitant bonuses.
They have perpetuated inequality and discrimination in the workplace based on age, the color of one’s skin, sex, gender identity and sexual orientation.
They have poisoned the food supply through negligence, and undermined the farming system through monopolization.
They have profited off of the torture, confinement, and cruel treatment of countless animals, and actively hide these practices.
They have continuously sought to strip employees of the right to negotiate for better pay and safer working conditions.
They have held students hostage with tens of thousands of dollars of debt on education, which is itself a human right.
They have consistently outsourced labor and used that outsourcing as leverage to cut workers’ healthcare and pay.
They have influenced the courts to achieve the same rights as people, with none of the culpability or responsibility.
They have spent millions of dollars on legal teams that look for ways to get them out of contracts in regards to health insurance.
They have sold our privacy as a commodity.
They have used the military and police force to prevent freedom of the press.
They have deliberately declined to recall faulty products endangering lives in pursuit of profit.
They determine economic policy, despite the catastrophic failures their policies have produced and continue to produce.
They have donated large sums of money to politicians, who are responsible for regulating them.
They continue to block alternate forms of energy to keep us dependent on oil.
They continue to block generic forms of medicine that could save people’s lives or provide relief in order to protect investments that have already turned a substantial profit.
They have purposely covered up oil spills, accidents, faulty bookkeeping, and inactive ingredients in pursuit of profit.
They purposefully keep people misinformed and fearful through their control of the media.
They have accepted private contracts to murder prisoners even when presented with serious doubts about their guilt.
They have perpetuated colonialism at home and abroad.
They have participated in the torture and murder of innocent civilians overseas.
They continue to create weapons of mass destruction in order to receive government contracts.*

To the people of the world,

We, the New York City General Assembly occupying Wall Street in Liberty Square, urge you to assert your power.

Exercise your right to peaceably assemble; occupy public space; create a process to address the problems we face, and generate solutions accessible to everyone.

To all communities that take action and form groups in the spirit of direct democracy, we offer support, documentation, and all of the resources at our disposal.

Join us and make your voices heard!"

http://www.nycga.net/resources/documents/declaration/

[-] 4 points by shadz66 (19985) 9 months ago

''It's Business That Really Rules Us Now'', by George Monbiot :

Thanx bw for The Definitive info-comment and link here, which I strongly recommend to all readers ;

''Join us and make your voices heard'' ~}~ ~i~ ~{~

pax et lux ; nunc et semper ; hic et ubique ...

[-] 2 points by shoozTroll (17632) 9 months ago

That's not helpful at all, on any level, in fact it's this attitude that is actually what's pedantic here.

I specifically asked you to use recent events in Michigan as your test case. I'm well aware and have stated as much about appearances on the national level, and that is a very narrow view. The narrowest in fact.

It could be applied anywhere you paste a right/left point of view.

As I've pointed out several times now, that's what makes it a narrow, convenient excuse to look no deeper.

I'm asking you to look deeper now, and using Michigan as your test case, prove the existence of a duopoly.

It seems the trolls think you're the smartest guy in the room, so this should be a piece of cake for you.

[-] 3 points by shadz66 (19985) 9 months ago

''Helpful'' for who or to what ends ? Is it any less 'pedantic' of you to assert and assume that there is 'no duopoly' ? Especially when so many readers, posters & OWS at large think that there is exactly that !

You ''specifically asked about recent events in Michigan'' did you ? Where and who are you to pick my ''test case'' ? You regard the ''national level'' to be the ''narrow view'' do you ? So 'national' is ''narrowest'' but 'recent Michigan' is widest pov is it ? Are you actually for real ?

Don't kid yourself about right/left. It's subjective of course but by any view from outside and from many inside The USA, it's nearly all variations of 'right wing' with rare 'left' exceptions like The Green Party, various Socialist / Revolutionary Parties - oh .. and btw OWS too !

So in your attempts to get ''deeper'', what's the point that you are trying to make exactly and what may be your evidence of any putative conclusions outside the scope of Michigan ? What are you doing btw setting the parameters of the debate .... trying to stack the deck ?

Is anyone who doesn't agree with you 'a troll' ? Are you trying to goad me to irritation with that or do you actually have a case to make ? Re. proof of 'duopoly in Michigan' scroll down through this to the end :

and let me know how anyone would come to any different conclusion. I mean how many colours d'you see and just how many letters other than 'R&D' are on view here ?

Finally shooz, if it's not a Duopoly (or as I could argue 'monopoly'), what is it ? A 'plague on both their houses and let's get organised' is pretty much The OWS position, so what are you pushing instead ?

ad iudicium ...

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[-] -1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 9 months ago

There is no duopoly.

It's just a handy, vague, simplistic critique of any two party system.

Go ahead and scale it to Malasia, or England for that matter.

What the actually is, is a rise in Randian philosophy.

Ayn Rand, that is.

This bullshit about duopoly just distracts from that reality.

That's all it does and that's all it is.....distraction.

[-] 3 points by shadz66 (19985) 9 months ago

''There is no duopoly'' ?!!! Right and Father Christmas lives at the North Pole with his elves and reindeer and there are li'l fairies at the end of your garden ... plotting revolution, sustainability and permaculture, lolol !! The choice between A or B & ONLY A or B = Duopoly & ''you don't get a revolution by voting for the status quo'' and this is really much more in line with OWS' de facto precepts and philosophy, imo !

Finally dude, for sure 'Repelicans'' are beyond the pale ... but a corporate controlled and bankster bank-rolled Democratic Party Machine (as opposed to decent long suffering disenfranchised Dem voters) is a HUGE fail & so a Labour Based, Third Party & Independents of The 99% at every level of US PolyTricks is what y'all desperately need, I truly believe. Ayn 'Fkn Crazy' Rand is beyond the pale but nothing to do with the point of contention here & is a bit of a 'red herring' and far too many Dem Pols like that shit too.

ad iudicium ...

[-] 2 points by shoozTroll (17632) 9 months ago

You didn't scale it.

You didn't prove it.

You just repeated it.

How about England?

Go ahead and apply it.

After you do that, apply the reality of randism.

You did after all, make a claim to understanding that.

Let's see if you do.

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 9 months ago

You're not my examiner or editor, whatever else you may regard yourself to be shooz but in so far as I have to ''prove'' anything to you, let this suffice for now :

''Her psychopathic ideas made billionaires feel like victims and turned millions of followers into their doormats.''

I recommend the article and thread for anyone wanting to sharpen their counter-Randian arguments and you'll note from the first comment there how it was from back in the days when GF didn't have a rock up her arse, lol and what's with all the removed comments here ? One at least was a comment at me from HCHC4 on this, his thread from back in the day ? Sheeesh shooooz, chillTF out and give it a rest mate !

fiat lux ...

[-] 1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 9 months ago

In your last response you prove my point, by demonstrating it's "convenience", of application, in ANY argument of a two party system.

Convenient because, far too much be dismissed to apply it, making it a circular argument.

Jeeze, if you're not here to prove something, why are you here?

You could, if you wanted, go back through the myriad of threads I've provided on ongoing "events" in Michigan.

From there............if you are correct..........you should have no problem whatsoever building a case proving duopoly exists.

I did plenty to show that it's libe(R)tarians that created the situation, primarily through Koch Industries and ALEC, with clear ties going back through Gov. Engler, and including these ongoing current "events".

If you can show clear ties that incorporate all that? You win.

I've been saying all along it's creeping libe(R)tarianism that is poisoning the World, infecting it's many and varied systems, not just the US.

Ayn Rand is no herring. Duopoly is.

Now strictly as a thought experiment, I accepted your "duopoly" as real.

I find it's still blaming the puppet, for the actions of the puppeteer.

And when I paste it even further out, on other systems, also infected by libe(R)tarians, I find uncomfortable terms like octaopoly, or decaopoly.

Greed is a disease called neoplexia and it's primary vector these days is libe(R)tarianism.

[-] 4 points by shadz66 (19985) 9 months ago

''As U.S. corporate profits soar to record highs, food stamps for the neediest were quietly cut. The politicians who are demanding endless cuts to social programs — Democrats and Republicans alike — insist that the U.S. is broke, all the while conveniently ignoring the mountains of tax-free wealth piling up in the pockets of the super rich.'' {Not to mention the massive military budget} & beyond mere ''greed'' &

''It’s becoming increasingly obvious that breaking the power of the super wealthy is the first step towards balancing the budget, job growth, protecting the safety net, and creating a semblance of a rational society. Until then the U.S. will lurch from one crisis to another, while blaming everyone but the real culprits.'' - from :

There - that's what it's really all about !!! We agree on Far more than we disagree on actually and I'm not getting any further embroiled in word definitions with you. My replies to you here on this thread speak for themselves, so please reread them and the fine article above and reflect on where and who the real 99% enemies really are & focus your ire there. Dems aren't a solution the way they are. Occupy Democracy.

''Many Wall Streeters like Hillary Clinton. Expecting their ample contributions, and socializing with their business barons, it is not surprising that Hillary Clinton avoids going after the crooked casino capitalism that collapsed the economy, drained investors, pensions, jobs and taxpayer bailouts. Hillary Clinton is a far cry from the stalwart Senator Elizabeth Warren on this towering pattern of unaccountable corporate abuse.'' Read it and weep.

veritas vos liberabit ...

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[-] 1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 9 months ago

Whatever.

You still haven't proven "duopoly".

You still don't accept the reality of libe(R)tarians.

But you did accept the bullshit of the soap opera of the banned.

[-] 3 points by shadz66 (19985) 9 months ago

Hmmm, ONLY two parties ever contend for power in The U$A and The 99% are ever increasingly marginalised ! So if not Duopoly or Monopoly, then what d'you wish to call it ?!! 'Democracy', lol ?!!!

I can't nor want to ''prove'' that which you can't or won't see and I have nothing but sympathy for left, liberal Dem voters as 'their faction' becomes ever more neoliberal, 99%-detached and conservative.

Where have I not accepted the heinous nature of Koch/Rand Libertarianism & can I remind you that Obomber and Hitlary are right wing, Imperial Neoliberal Conservatives by any commonly understood international perspective ?! Your ''soap opera of the banned'' is your business - NOT mine so will you kindly refrain from trying to script me into your personal psycho-drama please ?!!!

minima maxima sunt ...

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[-] 1 points by beautifulworld (20483) 9 months ago

Money in politics poisons all of our politicians who take that money. That is the number one way that they are all the same. They all pander to the corporations. We live in a country controlled, and as Chomsky would say, tyrannized by corporations.

And, once again, there is nothing similar about socialists and libertarians except for the fact that both are not happy with the current system. Their approach to change, however, is wholeheartedly in opposition to one another. Socialists trust government and want more government control. Libertarians want no government. Therefore, it is silly when people accuse socialists of being libertarian.

[-] 5 points by shadz66 (19985) 9 months ago

As an example of money IN politics and 'corporate pandering', please consider :

''Does the future of our country benefit from Hillary, another Clinton, another politician almost completely indistinguishable from Barack Obama’s militaristic, corporatist policies garnished by big money donors from Wall Street and other plutocratic canyons?

''There is no doubt the Clintons are syrupy political charmers, beguiling many naïve Democrats who have long been vulnerable to a practiced set of comforting words or phrases camouflaging contrary deeds.''

Thanx for the comment here ; your points are sound. 'Money Out Of Politics' is a core OWS tenet and as a subscriber to socialism, my first interest and allegiance is to Real Democracy. ''Socialists trust government and want more government control'' 'cause we yearn for & strive towards true democratic state governments, accountable and responsive - to the electorate at large, you know ... The 99% !!!

spero meliora ...

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[-] -1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 9 months ago

You still avoid the issue of the lie of "duopoly"

You haven't proven it, no matter what you try and accuse me of.

You can post all the links on randianism you like, but if you fail to apply the lessons.

You fail.

Indeed, that makes a mockery of all the duopoly BS.

Complete and whole.

GF, has become frustrated, and all this pigheaded bullshit about duopoly is extremely irritating.

[-] 3 points by shadz66 (19985) 9 months ago

NB : GF was ''frustrated'' waay before she infected this thread & look to the thread after Grg. Monbiot's great article forum-post link - for how she used to be - back in the days when she was getting some !!!

Duopoly is only a lie when you can accept that it is really much more a case of A : 'Two Faction ; One Corporate Bankster CONtrolled - Imperial War & Neoliberal Austerity Party' MONOPOLY in The U$A !!

I ''fail'' in understanding your affiliations and preoccupations and this is OWS ffs & now a big sad sigh !

multum in parvo ...

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[-] -1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 9 months ago

Notice the dumb mother fucker doesn't live here, he says. He's such a lying piece of shit.


lol lol keep downvoting fuckhead.

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 9 months ago

I didn't stinkle before ... I actually twinkled it & to prove that and send shooz' comment to -2 & u to '0', I'm stinkling instead ... so 'do the maths' (NB:'s') ''fuckhead'' & btw, wtf have you got against foreigners, that's a hallmark of small minded and silly supremacists and pissant parochial conservatives, innit ?!!!

temet nosce ...

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[-] -2 points by GirlFriday (17435) 9 months ago

I don't give a hot damn what you did or did not do. You're a lyin little bitch.

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[-] -2 points by shadz66 (19985) 9 months ago

Easy there li'l GirlFuckhead !!! Don't make me cross now !! You know how you end up getting mauled when that happens and so - do try to watch that toilet mouth and offensive attitude, will you please ?!

nosce te ipsum ...

[-] 4 points by GirlFriday (17435) 9 months ago

Don't make you cross. You're a liar. Go fuck yourself.

[-] 2 points by GirlFriday (17435) 9 months ago

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (14908) 2 minutes ago

@ li'l GirlFkwit - are you trying to provoke me ?! What have I lied about ?!! Re. ''fuck yourself'', tch, Tch TCH and better me, myself and I than you ... EVER, that's for sure & try to behave yourself will you ?!!!

verum ex absurdo ... ↥twinkle ↧stinkle permalink


You seem to think I care if you are provoked or not. I don't care.

[-] 0 points by shadz66 (19985) 9 months ago

@ li'l GirlFkwit - are you trying to provoke me ?! What have I lied about ?!! Re. ''fuck yourself'', tch, Tch TCH and better me, myself and I than you EVER lol that's for sure & try to behave yourself will you ?!!!

verum ex absurdo ...

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[-] -1 points by HCHC4 (-28) 9 months ago

I mean that every single time a nation moves to perpetual war, it comes back home. As in we are bombing whoever we like, and pissing everyone off, and eventually the world will stand up to stop us and its going to be very ugly over here.

[-] 5 points by shadz66 (19985) 9 months ago

''On Why I Hate War'', by Jared J. Kohler :

A short piece from a heart-centred American abroad. With its vast labour pool to the south and a ever thawing Canada (remember 'Austria 1938' ?) to the north, The U$A can quite safely retreat to its ocean protected continent after its Imperial adventures abroad. It'll get ''ugly'' - NOT because of anyone coming to hurt Americans - it will get ugly because of The 'F' word and all its rather dark frightening possibilities.

caveat ...

[-] 1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 9 months ago

I guess you haven't heard.

It's here now.

http://occupywallst.org/forum/right-wing-attacks-on-workers-continue/

wanna talk about voters and gun nutters?

[-] 1 points by prospector22 (185) from Brooklyn, NY 9 months ago

I know I'm not alone in saying that, never in my wildest dreams, actually nightmares would I have ever have thought that I had voted for a President that would just pick up where Bush left off.

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