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Forum Post: More Killing in Afghanistan

Posted 10 years ago on May 16, 2013, 2:15 p.m. EST by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

MSNBC reports this is in retaliation to the US's desire to keep 9 military bases within Afghanistan indefinitely.

Classic signs of a country in collapse.




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[-] 7 points by shadz66 (19985) 10 years ago

With reference to Afghanistan - "Graveyard of Empires" but alas also an early grave for so many of its long suffering people, I re-post the following points and observations :

1) Afghanistan is a multi-ethnic country, made up of Aimaks, Baluchis, Hazaras, Kazahks, Kirghis, Pamiris, Tajhiks, Turkmen, Uzbeks & at ~42% of the total population, the largest single group, the Pashtuns/Pukhtoons (depending on Northern or Southern dialect).

2) The historical Pashtun homeland is divided in two by the Afghan / Pakistan border. This totally porous "border" is in effect the old "Durand Line", the de facto western territorial limit of the British Empire in the Indian subcontinent. The Pashtuns have NEVER recognised this arbitrary line on someone else's map & no external power or authority has ever been able to define it, let alone patrol or police it.

3) Pashtun society is extremely conservative, deeply traditional, unrelentingly patriarchal and tribal. The Women lead difficult lives far removed from any "Liberal Western Norms". A Pashtun is a member of a family group, a sub-clan,a clan and then a tribe. At over 45 million people globally, they are the world's largest tribally affiliated ethnic group.

4) Conservative Sunni Islam and the 'Lex Talionis', Pre-Islamic honour code, "Pashtunwalli", are the law, organisational guidelines and ethical principles by which this proud, fiercely independent and very hardy mountain people, regulate their society alongside and within their Jirga/Shura/Majlis collective decision making & gathering systems.

5) The phrase "Revenge is a dish best served cold", is the English approximation & appropriation of the Pashtun original. Another Pashtun dictum is: "Me against my brothers ; me & my brothers against my cousins; me, my brothers & my cousins against the world". Pashtun males are considered adult at 13 years of age and are honour bound to defend "Zan, Zhar, Zamin" - 'Women, Wealth & Land'. Notions of loyalty and duty to kith & kin, honour, respect, shame, "not losing face" and "dying on one's feet rather than living on one's knees" are central to their world view & modus vivendi.

6) The word "Taliban" translates as "Students", as they were originally recruited, equipped & organised with the enthusiastic help, encouragement and funding of the Saudis, ISI, MI6 & CIA from the Madrasas (religious schools) in the numerous Pashtun refugee camps, during and after the war to oust the Soviet armed forces and the devastating civil war that followed it.Their grandfathers and their fathers were then of course, known and eulogised as the "Mujahideen". This word "Taliban" is now very little more than an obfuscatory, propagandist and subversive "meme" for what is now in actuality, under various names and guises - 'The Pashtun National Resistance Movement'.

7) The peoples of present day Afghanistan, whether Pashtun or otherwise - are the time served 'world champions' of guerilla warfare & insurgency. No army or empire has ever been able to totally defeat & dominate them. (Alexander the Great's) Greek, Scythian, Hepthalite, Bactrian, Persian, Mongol, Arab, Turkic, British & Russian armies have all been severely mauled & bloodied at some time or other and have had to retreat, assimilate, pay tribute to or come to an accommodation with, these fierce & warlike peoples, especially now after they've been trained and supplied by the CIA et al to defeat the Russians !

8) The Americans, despite their massive military superiority, are the latest to learn these same painful lessons. This time however, the whole world is (quite intentionally?!!) further driven towards a "Clash of Civilisations", as advocated by the NeoCons : Samuel Huntington ; William Safire ;Thomas Friedman ; Charles Krauthammer ; Donald, Robert & Fred Kagan ; Norman & John Podhoretz ; Richard & Daniel Pipes ; Irving & Bill Kristol ; Richards, Perle & Haas ; Pauls. Bremer & Wolfowitz ; The US-MIC & the Corporate MSM at large.

9) This PNAC/NeoCon ambition, aspiration and world view stimulates and is mirrored by (as predicted by the Probability Gamers in Herzliya & Langley!) the grand "End Time Schematic" of a few thousand Jihadis worldwide, whose fanaticism & fury ; rage & resistance is fuelled, stoked and provoked by the Scientific Uber-Violence and Imperial Jackboot of the "Coalition of the Complicit", under the aegis and 'Blood Spattered Banner' of the ''Usurped States of Amnesiacs".

10) What the Warmongering US "National Security"/Military/Industrial/Corporate/Banking cliques did NOT seem to know of the Buddhist Vietnamese, in that they were a fiercely independent people, who had fought the Mongol, Khmer, Chinese, Japanese & French Imperiums before they defeated the USA so do they NOW seem NOT to know of the Muslim Afghans.


However, consider that perhaps an Unending War is just what is Really Wanted by the Dark Forces of The Bankster-U$/MIC Nexus. After all, as 9/!! was the declared raison d'etre for the Illegal and Immoral War on Afghanistan but as that heinous attack had nothing to do with Afghans or Afghanistan, then .. ?!

Empire and 'WARFARE' abroad and Austerity and 'UNFAIR' at home - this horror, hubris and hypocrisy, just goes on and on and on. Sadly, "the propagandist's purpose is to make one set of people forget that certain other sets of people are human" (Aldous Huxley) and further consider :

fiat lux ; fiat pax ; fiat justitia ruat caelum ...

[-] 3 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 10 years ago

Endless war.

The worst thing is that when republics move to empire, no one notices...for a while..... until that war finally comes home.

It always does. And this one will too. And the people here are going to be horrified and wish they had paid more attention.

[-] 7 points by shadz66 (19985) 10 years ago

''Did 9/11 Justify the War in Afghanistan ?'' by Dr. David Ray Griffin :

''The United States had made the decision to invade Afghanistan two months before the 9/11 attacks. At least part of the background to this decision was the United States’ long-time support for UNOCAL’s proposed pipeline, which would transport oil and natural gas from the Caspian Sea region to the Indian Ocean through Afghanistan and Pakistan. This project had been stymied through the 1990s because of the civil war that had been going on in Afghanistan since the Soviet withdrawal in 1989.

''In the mid-1990s, the US government had supported the Taliban with the hope that its military strength would enable it to unify the country and provide a stable government, which could protect the pipeline. By the late 1990s, however, the Clinton administration had given up on the Taliban.

''When the Bush administration came to power, it decided to give the Taliban one last chance. During a four-day meeting in Berlin in July 2001, representatives of the Bush administration insisted that the Taliban must create a government of “national unity” by sharing power with factions friendly to the United States. The US representatives reportedly said: “Either you accept our offer of a carpet of gold, or we bury you under a carpet of bombs.”

e tenebris, lux ...

[-] 10 points by gnomunny (6819) from St Louis, MO 10 years ago

It's probably not much of a secret to enlightened observers that the story of Afghanistan, as well as Syria now, is about nothing more than Western control of the area's vast natural resources, and by extension in regards to oil, the preservation of the petrodollar. And in addition to the UNOCAL pipeline, there's the "nagging problem" of another pipeline, this one extending eastward from Turkmenistan, thru Uzbekistan to Kazakhstan. Destination: China. So, as a 'fleshing out,' as it were, of your highly informative link:


Some quotes:

"Notice that the U.S. gives more foreign aid to Israel’s sworn enemies than it does to Israel itself. This schizophrenic behavior of 'standing with Israel' while providing excessive financial support to Israel’s enemies in the region is dubious. However, it makes perfect sense when viewed through the lens of resource war and the petrodollar system."



"In 2010, the Guardian newspaper published a leaked document written by Washington’s ambassador to Kyrgyzstan, Tatiana Gfoeller, after she had attended a meeting with British and Canadian businessmen in the Kyrgyz capital, Bishkek. In the leaked document, Ms. Gfoeller reports that during the meeting, Prince Andrew of York told her that Western Europe, the United States and the United Kingdom were now "back in the thick of playing the Great Game and this time we aim to win."



The extent of the areas vast oil, gas and mineral wealth has been known for decades. And experts agree that it's never been a problem of extraction but rather one of transportation, specifically to a warm water port.

"The fact that Afghanistan’s mineral wealth was known by the U.S. in advance of the war was revealed in an interview with a retired senior U.S. official based in Afghanistan. In the interview, conducted by Politico, the U.S. official noted that the reports of a ‘discovery’ of vast amounts of resources and minerals was old news:

"When I was living in Kabul in the early 1970’s the (U.S. government), the Russians, the World Bank, the UN and others were all highly focused on the wide range of Afghan mineral deposits. Cheap ways of moving the ore to ocean ports has always been the limiting factor."


Even that stellar humanitarian Zbigniew Brzezinski spoke of it back in 1997 in his book 'The Grand Chessboard: American Primacy and its Geostrategic Imperatives:'

"America’s global primacy is directly dependent on how long and how effectively its preponderance on the Euraisian continent is sustained… A power that dominates Eurasia would control two of the world’s three most advanced and economically productive regions… most of the world’s physical wealth is there as well, both in its enterprises and underneath its soil."



[-] 6 points by shadz66 (19985) 10 years ago

Thanx for your excellent, exhaustive and very interesting comment & links 'gno', further to which I also append in compliment :

We really have to see the 'War On Terror' less as a response to any kind of real existential threat to The U$A and much more through the prism of Neo-Colonialism and Old Fashioned Imperial Resource Grabs.

fiat lux et fiat pax ...

[-] 7 points by gnomunny (6819) from St Louis, MO 10 years ago

Excellent link to Brzezinski's book. Consider it downloaded, my friend.

Your second link, confirming what other sources (like ZH) have been saying, is an excellent explanation behind gold's recent fall from it's all-time high. In DC, the writing's on the wall. As the value of gold is inverse to the value of the dollar, and the illusion of QE is coming to a necessary close, it makes perfect sense from the Fed's standpoint to initiate such a move. But of course, it's a Band-Aid and those in the know will continue to buy up physical gold, as they should.

The last link is sobering, but really comes as no surprise. With all the hoopla over "Obama ending the Afghan war" and "bringing our boys home by 2014," the reality is, we're not leaving Afghanistan for a very long time. Just label the stay-behinds as 'trainers' and 'advisers.' Or pull off false-flag attacks on US and NATO forces to convince a gullible public that "the job's not yet done." And, when all else fails, just relabel the fucking thing:


And I thought this recent development was certainly an eye-opener, although you may have come across it already:


A brief quote from Sibel Edmonds, described as a "former FBI translator and respected whistleblower:"

" . . . though the collusion with radical Islam had been going on for decades, it wasn’t until 1996 that a formal decision was made by NATO to abandon their previous secret relationship with neo-Fascists and arch-Nationalists and replace them with Islamists."

Rabbit hole indeed!

And I highly recommend to anyone with the time to read all four parts of 'Follow the Money Daily" about the origins of the petrodollar and its potential future. It's quite informative:


In addition:


And, although a bit off-topic from the OP, but pertinent in the context of the petrodollar and America's economic future (it's all interconnected anyway):


[-] 5 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 10 years ago

excellent post

[-] 5 points by gnomunny (6819) from St Louis, MO 10 years ago

Thanks, hc. Some good info in those links.The Gladio B story is a new one to me. It's mind-boggling to try and wrap your head around all the shit that's coming to light.

[-] 6 points by ShadzSixtySix (1936) 9 years ago

''It's No Accident - Afghan Opium Production Hits All-Time High'', by Mike Whitney :

''2014 was a banner year for Afghanistan’s booming opium industry. According to a United Nations annual survey released on Wednesday, opium cultivation set a record in 2014, increasing by an impressive 7 percent year-over-year and up nearly 50 percent from 2012. Afghanistan presently produces 80 percent of the world’s heroin which provides billions of dollars in illicit profits for the powerful drug Mafia. Heroin trafficking and production have flourished under US military occupation and transformed Afghanistan into a dysfunctional narco-colony.

''Readers who follow events in Afghanistan will recall that the Taliban had virtually eradicated poppy production before Bush and Cheney launched their war in 2001. The Pentagon reversed that achievement by installing the same bloodthirsty warlords who had been in power before the Taliban. Naturally, this collection of psychopaths–who the western media lauded as the “Northern Alliance”–picked up where they left off and resumed their drug operations boosting their own wealth and power by many orders of magnitude while meeting the near-insatiable demand for heroin in capitals across Europe and America.''

fiat lux ...

[-] 5 points by trashyharry (3084) from Waterville, NY 9 years ago

Where are the proceeds from the Dope Trade stored? Follow the Dead Bankers...

[-] 5 points by ShadzSixtySix (1936) 9 years ago

''Dead Bankers'' ?!!! If only, lol !! Better to follow The Dope and where it is being smuggled to and which countries are being destabilised by it & how 'off the books' CIA funds are again obtained now ! Also fyi :

fiat pax ...

[-] 1 points by ImNotMe (1488) 6 years ago

''Lies About American Progress in Afghanistan'', by Matthew Hoh:

fiat lux ...

[-] 1 points by ImNotMe (1488) 4 years ago

"How many more decades are they willing to fight?" .. asks tRUMP of the Taliban!

fiat pax ...

[-] 1 points by ImNotMe (1488) 2 years ago

"Defense Contractors Spent Big in Afghanistan Before the US left and the Taliban took control"!

sub rosa?

[-] 1 points by ImNotMe (1488) 2 years ago

Note: "Afghanistan: The Great Deception" ... by Jawied Nawabi:

This is a very important PoV for those with the guts to try to read it.

et veritas vos liberabit ...

[-] 1 points by ImNotMe (1488) 2 years ago

"The Great Game of Smashing Nations: John Pilger"

"As a tsunami of crocodile tears engulfs Western politicians, history is suppressed. More than a generation ago, Afghanistan won its freedom, which the United States, Britain and their “allies” destroyed.

"In 1978, a liberation movement led by the People’s Democratic Party of Afghanistan (PDPA) overthrew the dictatorship of Mohammad Dawd, the cousin of King Zahir Shah. It was an immensely popular revolution that took the British and Americans by surprise.

"Foreign journalists in Kabul, reported The New York Times, were surprised to find that “nearly every Afghan they interviewed said [they were] delighted with the coup.” The Wall Street Journal reported that “150,000 persons … marched to honor the new flag … the participants appeared genuinely enthusiastic.”

"The Washington Post reported that “Afghan loyalty to the government can scarcely be questioned.” Secular, modernist and, to a considerable degree, socialist, the government declared a program of visionary reforms that included equal rights for women and minorities. Political prisoners were freed and police files publicly burned.

"Under the monarchy, life expectancy was 35; 1-in-3 children died in infancy. Ninety percent of the population was illiterate. The new government introduced free medical care. A mass literacy campaign was launched.

"For women, the gains had no precedent; by the late 1980s, half the university students were women, and women made up 40 percent of Afghanistan’s doctors, 70 percent of its teachers and 30 percent of its civil servants.

"For the United States, the problem with the PDPA government was that it was supported by the Soviet Union. Yet it was never the “puppet” derided in the West, neither was the coup against the monarchy “Soviet backed,” as the American and British press claimed at the time.

"President Jimmy Carter’s secretary of state, Cyrus Vance, later wrote in his memoirs: “We had no evidence of any Soviet complicity in the coup.”

"In the same administration was Zbigniew Brzezinski, Carter’s national security adviser, a Polish émigré and fanatical anti-communist and moral extremist whose enduring influence on American presidents expired only with his death in 2017.

"On July 3, 1979, unknown to the American people and Congress, Carter authorized a $500 million “covert action” program to overthrow Afghanistan’s first secular, progressive government. This was code-named by the CIA Operation Cyclone.

"The $500 million bought, bribed and armed a group of tribal and religious zealots known as the mujahedin. In his semi-official history, Washington Post reporter Bob Woodward wrote that the CIA spent $70 million on bribes alone.

"Recruited from all over the Muslim world, America’s secret army was trained in camps in Pakistan run by Pakistani intelligence, the CIA and Britain’s MI6. Others were recruited at an Islamic College in Brooklyn, New York – within sight of the doomed Twin Towers. One of the recruits was a Saudi engineer called Osama bin Laden.

"The aim was to spread Islamic fundamentalism in Central Asia and destabilize and eventually destroy the Soviet Union."

READ THE REST - IF YOU DARE via the link above (or alt link below) and then also try to consider...

fiat lux; fiat justitia; fiat pax ...

[-] 1 points by ImNotMe (1488) 1 year ago

So, "Why is the White House stealing $7bn from Afghans?!" ... by Moustafa Bayoumi:

Note that "To take Afghan money to pay grieving Americans in order to punish the Taliban is nothing less than larceny as collective punishment"!


[-] 1 points by ImNotMe (1488) 2 years ago

Re. Afghanistan, consider: "U.S./NATO Economic Investments Neglected the Most Important Sectors of “Nation-Building” . . .

"How is it that 40 of the world’s most developed countries involved in the U.S./NATO operation supposedly spent more in Afghanistan than they did in implementing the Marshall Plan in Western Europe, and yet, somehow still systematically disregarded where that investment needed to go? If sincerely invested, this money would have gone toward building the central state’s administrative capacity for social services and law and order as well as the agricultural sector, since the vast majority of Afghanistan’s population has lived in rural areas for the past 20 years, which is also incidentally the region from which the Taliban got most of their recruits. The World Bank estimates that 74 percent of Afghans live in rural areas, but that number is almost certainly an undercount due to the way in which its figures categorize rural residents who have only temporarily moved to cities.

"Instead, the agricultural sector was willfully neglected, which contributed to the high national unemployment rate of at least 40 percent in a country where about 70 percent of the population is under 25 years old. This is rather ironic when the U.S. and the European Union (EU) subsidize their own agricultural sectors, which make up not more than 5 percent of their national labor forces respectively — about $49 billion and $101 billion just in 2019. Meanwhile in Afghanistan, a country with a total GDP of about $20 billion that they occupied for 20 years, they could not subsidize Afghan farmers enough in order to make the country food self-sufficient while creating jobs in the rural areas.

"The policies of the U.S. and NATO, because of its lukewarm commitment to “nation-building,” systematically undermined building Afghanistan’s central state capacity (as it also did in Iraq during de-Baathification, destroying its central state capacity), by avoiding giving the majority of the reconstruction aid to the relevant government ministries with the excuse that there wasn’t sufficient capacity in the Afghan government to absorb the aid or that there was corruption.

"However, the corruption was nurtured precisely because the majority of the reconstruction funds went to U.S. private contractors, which then subcontracted the projects without proper accountability measures, with the end result being that 90 percent of the reconstruction aid took a “round trip” finding its way back to U.S. private security firms, nongovernmental organizations (NGOs) and U.S. Agency for International Development (USAID) contracts granted to U.S. corporations. Only 2 percent or less of U.S. spending actually reached “the Afghan people in the form of basic infrastructure or poverty-reducing services.” The showcasing of the so-called reconstruction investments with high visibility was a way to foster global perceptions about the generosity of US/NATO development projects, which in reality they were building schools without students and teachers, power plants that were not usable, etc.

"It is not surprising then that after the U.S. spent billions supporting the Mujahadeen during the 1980s to destroy Afghanistan’s central state, the ensuing civil war among the Mujahadeen and the Taliban from 1992-2001 reduced the standard of living in Afghanistan (as measured by poverty, life expectancy, unemployment, clean water, electricity, etc.) to one of the lowest in the world by 2001. Yet after 20 years of occupation, its poverty rate is about 55 percent, which is no lower than it was in 2001.

"However, for those who have followed the U.S.’s foreign development aid record for the past 70 years, Afghanistan’s (or Haiti’s or Iraq’s) case is not a surprise at all. The U.S. foreign aid program is notorious for its poor quality and the stingy quantity it provides to the Global South. It is poor quality because most of the supposed aid money it gives a country usually does not help the receiving country build self-sufficiency in its local agricultural, manufacturing or infrastructural capacity. Instead, most of the aid is “tied aid,” where the receiving country has to spend the majority of the aid money buying from U.S. firms, even though there are less expensive options. Despite the perception of generosity the U.S. has created, its aid amount is one of the lowest among the world’s high-GDP countries: The U.S. gives less than 0.20 percent of its national income to development aid. It does not even give 0.70 percent of its national income, which it has agreed to since the 1970s."

ABOVE EXCERPT FROM THIS EXCELLENT ARTICLE, with many other important embedded links ...

omnia causa fiunt ...

[-] 1 points by ImNotMe (1488) 2 years ago

For more real & deeper knowledge about the recent background to events in Afghanistan, please do try to consider this good feature length documentary film from the legendary & ever insightful, Adam Curtis.

respice et adspice!

[-] 1 points by ImNotMe (1488) 6 years ago

''Neocon Creep'', by Karen Kwiatkowski:

Hope U safe & well in Tampa OTP / hchc.

fiat lux, fiat justitia et fiat pax ...

[-] 1 points by ImNotMe (1488) 6 years ago

''Expansion of Imperialist US "War on Terror" in Africa Preceded Deadly Attacks in Niger and Somalia''

Where U at hchc? Hope U ok after the hurricanes. Solidarity to U & yours.

pax ...

[-] 1 points by grapes (5232) 6 years ago

Both the Sahel and the neighborhood of the Horn of Africa suffer from climate change causing livelihood disruptions/poverty which breed extremism and violence. Oil is the major factor in the U.S. involvement in Africa as well as the broader global war on terror.

As long as the people of the U.S.A. do not reduce oil consumption to a level sustainable without involving Africa, the U.S. has to protect its access to African oil as well as the security of the international oil shipping lanes off of Somalia. As for the U.S. special forces' deaths in Niger, there's just too much jerking around way too fast in U-ganda's Zombie mount.

The oil is bloody but it doesn't have to be the bloody oil of Africa or the Middle-East.

[-] 2 points by shadz66 (19985) 10 years ago

Thanx for five stonking links, which I'll explore at length - especially re. 'Gladio B'. Thus in compliment and solidarity and as per the forum-post :

fiat pax ...

[-] 5 points by gnomunny (6819) from St Louis, MO 10 years ago

Oh yeah, the OP. Sorry OTP, heheheh.

Excellent first link. It had me literally chuckling at first, if only because it confirms so much of what we 'cynics' have been saying here for a while. Too many quotes to excerpt, but the one thing that did piss me off was the statement that we'll be spending $80 Billion in Afghanistan in fiscal 2014 and $10 Billion a year after that for training and paying Afghan soldiers and police officers. WTF? We're broke!

Your second link is bookmarked. At an hour and a half, it's a time issue, you see.


[-] 3 points by shadz66 (19985) 10 years ago

Your points are sound and I'm not totally sure if I've copied this to you already or whether you have caught sight of it, hence in case not - I append fyi this VERY interesting article :

multum in parvo ...

[-] 5 points by gnomunny (6819) from St Louis, MO 10 years ago

Excellent. I saw this in the sidebar on some webpage recently, but neglected to click on it. Looks like a worthy read, which I'm preparing to do right now.

[-] 3 points by shadz66 (19985) 10 years ago

That was such a strong article that I just re-read it. It is also worth linking to the article author's blog and own web-site here :

The whole Sibel Edmonds story keeps rolling on and on, revealing ever more. How much more I wonder?

fiat lux ...

[-] 5 points by gnomunny (6819) from St Louis, MO 10 years ago

A highly revealing story, much more than a single piece of a very big puzzle. Quite a few puzzle pieces, in fact. Border pieces, if you catch my drift.

It must have been during one of my hiatuses (hiati?) that the story first appeared on this forum, because this was the first I'd heard of Sibel or Gladio B. I'm surprised she hasn't met an 'untimely death.'

[-] 3 points by shadz66 (19985) 10 years ago

Hope your finagle re. Monsatan worked out 'g' and tho' at a wee tangent here, I'd like to copy this good piece by the same author as above, here :

Hope you enjoyed and if feet are aching, then hot as you can bear water in a bucket with plenty of salt ('Epsom' if possible but normal will do) is my recommendation. Solidarity 'gno' :-)

pax ...

[-] 2 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 10 years ago

"We really have to see the 'War On Terror' less as a response to any kind of real existential threat to The U$A and much more through the prism of Neo-Colonialism and Old Fashioned Imperial Resource Grabs."

Exactly. And its destroying the entire planet.

[-] 1 points by ImNotMe (1488) 4 years ago

''We Lost the War in Afghanistan. Get Over It!", by Stephen Walt:

''After 18 years of war, thousands of lives lost, and hundreds of billions of dollars squandered, the United States accomplished precisely nothing''. + Stephen M. Walt is the Robert and Renée Belfer professor of international relations at Harvard University.

e tenebris, lux?

[-] 1 points by ImNotMe (1488) 1 year ago

"Choking the Afghan People to Death"! - by Daniel Larison:

from which .... "The withdrawal from Afghanistan should have marked the end of the U.S. war there, but an even more destructive economic warfare had taken its place. The Afghan people are being punished more by our government’s sanctions than they were by its bombs ... and now they are staring one of the largest man-made famines in the face"! + Also by same author, note:

fiat lux et fiat justitia!

[-] -1 points by grapes (5232) 4 years ago

I wouldn't say that the U.S. had accomplished nothing. George W. Bush was correct in bringing the fight to the homebase of terrorism because our homeland became relatively safer. The terrorists had many more forward-deployed U.S. targets to attack so they took the easier route to attack U.S. interests overseas.

The number of years of the war in Afghanistan matter little because a stabilized Afghanistan not being a global base of terrorist attacks has yet to be achieved.

Saying this war being too long so it's obsolete is a bit like saying that wars have become obsolete because they have been going on for many millennia at least. Why does almost every country in the world still maintain their armed forces? Yes, the World has many bad people and we must be prepared to fight them anywhere, anyhow, anytime, for however long it takes to secure the safety and well being of our people.

Remember that the U.S. is wide open geographically. We don't have Red China's forbidding deserts and mountain ranges to its west. We don't have Russia's subarctic climate to its north and the vast Siberia to its east for safeguarding our flanks. We do have largely peaceful neighbors and allies on both our northern and southern flanks but we also have the longest ice-free coastlines in the world. We therefore need at least a globally capable navy and marine corps to protect us. Oceans and seas must become for us our lakes and ponds to safeguard our global-trade routes and cities predominantly located on our mainland's two coasts. It's therefore logical that the U.S. owns and operates the largest number of mobile aircraft-carrier task groups in the world. Bi-oceanic isolation for the U.S. no longer works to secure our mainland's people ever since Pearl Harbor in the middle of seemingly nowhere was attacked. Taiwan being central on the frontier of our security perimeter on the first island chain must be defended at all costs.

My Dad's generation went island hopping in these island chains towards conquering Imperial Japan fighting in some of the most savage battles against at-times cannibals and suicidal kamikaze attacks. Let's not lose our hard-won island-chain security blanket which we had inherited from our forebears. Our island bases enable us to detect and defend against the submarines, navies, and little-sickly[blue]-man quasi-navies of adversaries.

They don't keep their words. We don't keep our guns.

The U.S. can take on quite a few rogues at the same time if need be. We shall come in CCP-style peaceful harmony to kill. We know how to cook rust-dog meat for Lenin.

At night in my "birthplace of the wooden gods" shantytown, I heard barking, yelping, whining, thumping, and peaceful harmony. Then I smelled smoke. Aroma! Lenin was well pleased, I surmise. 华的 was dog。 RU HK yet?

I'm amazed that someone of apparent Red Chinese importance would actually say near @13:49 that the Hong Kongers had to have "foreign help" to get their various equipment used in the demonstrations! Shouldn't the people advising Red China know all about the internet, Amazon, and FedEx for buying things online and having them delivered? Hong Kongers are internet-savvy people who definitely know of some online markets, perhaps unlike some Great-Chinese-Firewalled-in mainlanders. Besides, there were videos showing street vendors selling gears very cheaply to the demonstrators. Some demonstrators even seemed to be handed gears for free. These demonstrations have widespread local support.

It's absolutely stupid to say that the people of a place that trades more goods than its own GDP annually don't know how to get gears by themselves!!!

Yeah, the West is coming over to haul away the Himalayas to take them home for "resources." I suspect that I had alarmed Russia just because when I was intrigued by the fear of the Nazi-German soldiers of potentially having to spend time in Siberian prisons (Why would anyone even live in such a reputedly god-forsaken place? What's over there?) I was looking at online information of Siberia. Yeah, how did these Russians know that my nostrils were pointing downward? I've a feeling that the Russians were clairvoyant or spying upon me through the eyes of a pussy. Wrong internet URLs alarmed them very much. They probably thought that they were being Siberattacked. Don't they know that we the Americans may have sausage-finger syndrome while pecking at tiny virtual keys? For fuck's sake, it's just my middle finger, not a male cyberattack coital organ! The Russians might have been hacking others so they became paranoid about being hacked themselves, turning fearful of a Winnie-the-Pooh red finger! Yeah, we the Americans are coming over to piss away at the Ural.

Regardless of Himalayas or Ural, drink enough coffee or tea, and we'll make a Happy Kelly. "Fast as the wind, soft as the kiss of snow."

Red China mustn't denude Hong Kong's liberty because state sovereignty may be limited by the state's international treaties and always subservient to universal human rights.

[-] 1 points by ImNotMe (1488) 4 years ago

So ... WTF is ^ THAT ^ other than the regurgitation of U$A's own .. Imperio-Corporate Propaganda?!!!

Your US centered hubris is as repulsive as it is totally to be expected .. due to your Confirmation Bias!!

Furthermore .. U may also wish to deeply reflect on your own personal B-S and Cognitive Dissonance!

et temet nosce!

[-] 2 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 10 years ago

Afghanistan's resource is OPIUM! After the Taliban banned it's cultivation in 2001, production dropped from 65% to under 10% of world supply. The U.S. and coalition forces invaded just months later. By 2007 Opium production climbed to 90% of world supply.


[-] 5 points by gnomunny (6819) from St Louis, MO 10 years ago

Opium is definitely one of Afghanistan's primary resources and one of the reasons we're there in the first place. And it's no coincidence that in recent years, heroin abuse has risen significantly, in some places topping methamphetamine as the drug of choice.

But it's not Afghanistan's only valuable resource, of course, by far:



[-] 2 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 10 years ago

I've heard of the potential mineral resources, but we've been there 12 years. Where are the mining operations? Where are the pipelines?

Opium isn't just a drug, it's a weapon. Large amounts are exported to Iran and Russia where it devastates parts of their populations.

It's odd that the billions of dollars in profit opium industry thrives while the trillions of dollars in mineral and gas revenues go untapped.

[-] 5 points by gnomunny (6819) from St Louis, MO 10 years ago

It's already begun. Damn jr, check out some links:


Scan down a little over half way and read about the pipelines.





Take special note of some of the names involved. JP Morgan in the NYT 2010 article and the Pentagon in the LA Times.

The bigger picture, jr. The bigger picture.

[-] 2 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 10 years ago

Yes, the bigger picture and the long term picture.

Current Afghan oil reserves could supply world oil demand for just two months.

Will companies risk billions of dollars in investments in a country that has thrown off all foreign influence for centuries?

[-] 5 points by gnomunny (6819) from St Louis, MO 10 years ago

Shortly after your previous comment I came across these:



In a nutshell, Karzai agrees to the US keeping nine bases in Afghanistan as long as he gets what he wants:

"We can agree to give them the bases – them staying on after 2014 is for the good of Afghanistan. The condition is that they bring peace and security and take action quickly … on the basic strengthening of Afghanistan, helping the economy of Afghanistan. We are trying to ensure the interests of both countries are satisfied in this agreement. We want roads, electricity, hydropower dams, and strengthening of the Afghan government."

Emphasis mine. So, here it is. The problem with exploiting Afghanistan's vast reserves has always been lack of infrastructure. According to this new deal, we'll be giving Afghanistan $10 Billion in cash per year after 2014 (we'll be giving them $80 Billion that year alone), a large military presence indefinitely, plus massive infrastructure investments (roads, hydroelectric power, etc.).

You still want to bet those reserves will continue to remain unexploited?

[-] 2 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 10 years ago

The most glaring fact about the opium trade under U.S. control is that the profits are used by the Taliban to buy weapons that are then used to kill our soldiers. Any General or President that purposely carries out such a strategy is guilty of treason and deserves to be executed.

[-] 6 points by gnomunny (6819) from St Louis, MO 10 years ago

If you check Karzai's bio on Wikipedia, you'll notice that he's no friend of the Taliban and, in fact, solicited help from NATO to fight them. The Taliban allegedly killed his dad in 1999. And then, according to Wiki, "In 2000 and 2001, he traveled to Europe and the United States to help gather support for the anti-Taliban movement."

We've been negotiating with him, basically, for 13 years. I believe the long history of Afghanistan as "destroyer of empires" no longer applies and that Afghanistan isn't out to "defeat the US." We're more likely about to become business partners.

This was actually a response to your comment below. As to this comment, I'd have to agree completely that any General or Pres that carried out such a strategy should be tried for treason. But then, this administration (the last few, really) has already committed treasonous acts and should be brought to trial.

[-] 2 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 10 years ago

Afghanistan, or more properly the separate tribes within it's borders, aren't trying to defeat the U.S., but repel a foreign invader. Because the British established their boundaries doesn't t mean they acknowledge those borders. This is the Afghans greatest strength, each tribe being an autonomous group, there is no head, so a fatal blow can never be struck. Karzai is a figurehead. A synthetic creation that will fall as soon as the U.S. withdraws it's support.

[-] 5 points by gnomunny (6819) from St Louis, MO 10 years ago

I agree Karzai is a figurehead. But the important thing about your reply is "as soon as the US withdraws support." With nine US bases being approved by Karzai and his cronies, that's not going to happen for a very long time, I think. And you have to factor in that ever-present beast, greed. We have the capacity to build the infrastructure necessary to finally allow the extraction and delivery of that country's resources. And a $10 billion dollar a year check is a hell of an incentive. I think it's safe to say that money is going to be a major factor in this. This wasn't the case previously.

It's also important that one of the main reasons the Russians withdrew was because the Soviet Union was in the middle of its collapse. And considering our substantial involvement in Afghanistan's fight against them, it's technically incorrect to think that the Soviet Union was defeated by the Afghanis alone. I'm not saying that's your opinion, mind you, but it does seem to be the accepted narrative.

[-] 2 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 10 years ago

With or without foreign aid, the Afghans have and will defeat all oppressors. They will be there for centuries more. We won't.

Would you personally invest a million of you own investment dollars in Afghanistan?

[-] 1 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 10 years ago

It depends on the determination of the Afghan people to expel foreign influence. They are a tough enemy. It defeated Great Britain, the Soviet Union, and we'll see if it also defeats the United States. I greatly admire their desire to be their own masters and not become slaves to western influence.

Only time will tell.

[-] 3 points by gnomunny (6819) from St Louis, MO 10 years ago

"Would you personally invest a million of you own investment dollars in Afghanistan?"

It would all depend on how wealthy I was and what kind of business contacts I had. If I could afford to lose a million without much pain and my contacts were in government, oil, natural gas, etc. I may consider it. Besides, you wouldn't be investing in Afghanistan per se, but in the businesses that are going to be investing there.

[-] 1 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 10 years ago

Looks like our discussion has run it's course. It'll be interesting to see what happens in Afghanistan over the next decade.

It was a pleasure talking with you.

[-] 3 points by gnomunny (6819) from St Louis, MO 10 years ago

It'll be interesting indeed. And of course, everything I've said here is just my opinion based on what little I've read. It could very well turn out to be a total disaster over there. You're right, time will tell.

And from what I can recall off the top of my head, it's always been a pleasure to talk with you jr. You're a smart guy. And polite! ;-)

[-] 5 points by Builder (4202) 10 years ago

Same offer they made to Pakistan. "You're with us, or you're against us."

The bully tactics never work. Unless, of course, total genocide occurrs, or the country becomes impossible to live in, via DU contamination, or bombing back into the stone age.

Americans can question where their taxes are being spent. If some corporation wants their pipeline protected, hire some mercenaries.

[-] 6 points by shadz66 (19985) 10 years ago

Let's follow the rabbit deeper down the hole 'B' :

''FBI whistle-blower Sibel Edmonds was described as "the most gagged person in the history of the United States" - Edmonds claimed that Ayman al-Zawahiri, had innumerable, regular meetings at the U.S. embassy in Baku, Azerbaijan, with U.S. military and intelligence officials between 1997 and 2001, as part of an operation known as ‘Gladio B’.''

Shit has got to hit the fan and chucks has got to come home to roost at some point !! Onyer mate !

multum in parvo ...

[+] -6 points by wittlelittlecloud (-83) 10 years ago

This is good evidence that terrorists did cause 9/11, i.e. that it wasn't an inside job. But yeah, no amount of evidence will stop the fantasies of conspiracy theorists.

[-] 6 points by shadz66 (19985) 10 years ago

Ssshhhh ... off you go now and play, if only with yourself inside your logical fallacies and non sequiturs :

sub rosa ...

[-] 3 points by shoozTroll (17632) 10 years ago

And what's to stop your theory of leaders as Gods?

When will you answer the questions?

Perhaps as your next nameplate?

C'mon. I wanna know!

[-] 4 points by shadz66 (19985) 10 years ago

''A Novel Idea : Asking an Afghan About Afghanistan'', by Greg Palast :

ad iudicium ...

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 10 years ago

What makes you think that people aren't aware?

It's part of the reason for privatization. It's a current theme in immigration reform. It's why we have had rumors surface of blacklists of activists unable to board planes. The problem is not that people aren't aware. It is how to stop it. There are those people that firmly believe that there will be worse repercussions if they do stop it. Too, there are those that firmly believe the US deserves to be an empire because the US knows best.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^That's just from the small people. As if they could exert any real control. The small people are only necessary for elections and support for funding. Although, it's been proven that the small people aren't really necessary for that either.

[+] -4 points by AlwaysWiIlBeAlwaysRight (-82) 10 years ago

Some, like DKAtoday, will say we must keep tweeting. I say we need to protest hard core in the streets, and raise money to start court cases against 1%ers we can bring to court on strong evidence of wrong doing. We need to force a revolution. On towards anarcho-communism. OWS style. Civil disobedience.

[-] 3 points by GirlFriday (17435) 10 years ago

Perhaps you are too young to remember the School of Assasins and the protests there. Although, there really is no excuse not to know.


[-] 1 points by AlwaysWiIlBeAlwaysRight (-82) 10 years ago

They used torture. I can't really support those people.

[-] 3 points by GirlFriday (17435) 10 years ago

It doesn't matter if you support them or not. They didn't just torture people. They murdered them. It took entirely too long and in some cases has been overlooked to bring those dictators supported (installed) by the US to justice.

[-] -1 points by AlwaysWiIlBeAlwaysRight (-82) 10 years ago

Sure. I agree. Your point?

What does this have to do with what we were talking about?

[-] 3 points by GirlFriday (17435) 10 years ago

You and I were not discussing anything. If I find out you are J-I will go to Rochester and clock your ass.

It isn't a question of awareness.

The first thing that you need to realize is that these organizations have a tendency to morph. In the same way that Blackwater is now known as Academi. The School of Americas, what we called the School of Assassins, is now known as The Western Hemisphere Institute for Security Cooperation.

Secondly, if you truly give a damn, you need to examine what actions have been taken in the past and weigh them against the desired outcome. That means a lot of folks are going to have to get over their Benghazi fixation.

[-] 3 points by shoozTroll (17632) 10 years ago

Will you be in Kalamazoo?

Michigan needs you bad.

The Koch invasion has arrived.

If not?

You should shut up about it.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 10 years ago

You have always been against the sharing of information to a wider audience - Bridge to the ground my ass - you have no such intention - you never had. Shit 4 Brains shill.

[+] -4 points by AlwaysWiIlBeAlwaysRight (-82) 10 years ago

Sharing information from the streets is more powerful then sending letters to the president, which only legitimizes the system we are fighting against. People are already aware. Sending tweets now is just a way to ask other people to protest for us. And, it's healthy to meet people face to face.

You should at least go to one OWS event. This will help you understand the protest you claim to support.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 10 years ago

You are going back to your old material again - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwAcr-S1LSw

It was weak shit the 1st time and has gotten only stinkier over time and much use.

[-] -3 points by AlwaysWiIlBeAlwaysRight (-82) 10 years ago

I'm surprised you are against protesting in the streets and doing actions. Why do you support OWS? To tweet? And, when you tweet, aren't you telling other people - "Hey look at this problem, we must do something about it!". But then, you never do anything except tweeting.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 10 years ago

Another old and failed tactic of Ur's - trying to put "YOUR" words in others mouths.

Go talk 2 Ur hand shithead - then U can make believe that U are scoring points. Ur hand does not talk back does it? I mean U do have mental problems - perhaps Ur hand spanks U in Ur fantasy world - verbally spanks - I figure it does the actual quite often as a warm-up 2 Ur self flagellation.

[-] 2 points by GirlFriday (17435) 10 years ago

Oh, no wait.............there just might be a little more there. http://www.outlookafghanistan.net/national_detail.php?post_id=7370

[-] 1 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 10 years ago

Theres a lot more there, hence our presence.


[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 10 years ago

Did you catch that article on the leftover border problems?

[-] 0 points by wittlelittlecloud (-83) 10 years ago

Bush, then Obama, and the killings will continue with the next guy.

[-] 0 points by shoozTroll (17632) 10 years ago
[-] 0 points by wittlelittlecloud (-83) 10 years ago

You can't accept the slightest criticism of Obama can you? Obama water boys are taking over this town.

[-] 0 points by shoozTroll (17632) 10 years ago

You don't respond well to anything.

So what's that about?

Care to comment on the information given instead of resorting to crass insults?

Isn't that one of those logical fallacies you claim to NEVER use?


It is.

[-] -1 points by AlwaysWiIlBeAlwaysRight (-82) 10 years ago

Sad. Pathetic. Bush, Obama, whoever is in charge of US doesn't matter. It's wars wars wars. We need to end this political system once and for all.

[-] -2 points by AlwaysWiIlBeAlwaysRight (-82) 10 years ago

We need to end the political system in Canada also. Harper is extremely dangerous. A right winger like Bush. Let's combine the countries and run them both with anarcho-syndicalism.

BTW - A mayor taking crack cocaine isn't nearly as bad as a president starting illegal wars and killing millions. You could have used a better example, like the wrong doing of Harper, Tar Sands, etc... There are zillions.

[-] 2 points by shoozTroll (17632) 10 years ago

How are you doing with that wherever you are????

My advice is to start local.

so where did you say you were?

[-] -2 points by AlwaysWiIlBeAlwaysRight (-82) 10 years ago

We do need to start local, that's why I support my local affinity group by attending protests and actions.

However, the US war machine affects people all over the world. It's legitimate for non US citizens to voice their concerns. You can't expect to kill people all over and take down regimes without foreigners talking about it.

[-] -2 points by AlwaysWiIlBeAlwaysRight (-82) 10 years ago

I'm in US right now. For a university conference. I managed to take part in a small Occupy meeting which was interesting. Nice to see how other affinity groups than my own are doing.

[-] 2 points by shoozTroll (17632) 10 years ago

Another information averse, generic post.

How nice.

Which forum posters have you marked for attack today?

[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 10 years ago

Sock-puppets do not count as an affinity group.They R just sad tools of shills like Ur self.

[-] -2 points by AlwaysWiIlBeAlwaysRight (-82) 10 years ago

Sock puppet are fun! Don't dish them! You have many sock puppets yourself!


Still working at DKA consultants, Inc on Prestwick?

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 10 years ago

Ur theme song - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwAcr-S1LSw

Do U play it on an endless loop? U R RustyButtHeadBrucie? Damn U 2 are so much alike - OH well nothing said that does not also apply 2 U.

BTW - this one is mine http://occupywallst.org/users/DKA4today/ Used once when I lost access to this account - not used since I got this account back.

The others? As U well know shill creations used 4 attack purposes. U do remember doing that don't U ?

[+] -4 points by AlwaysWiIlBeAlwaysRight (-82) 10 years ago

Nice to know kissing the ass of the moderators got you unbanned.

[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 10 years ago

U wish - I should have guessed earlier that it was U rustybutt as U always did seem to think that U were somebody.

Well here ya go - nowhere man(?) - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfWEPu0w-7w ( something U have in common with that other shill )

He's a real nowhere Man,

Sitting in his Nowhere Land,

Making all his nowhere plans for nobody.

Doesn't have a point of view,

Knows not where he's going to,

Isn't he a bit like you and me?(STRIKE THAT)

Nowhere Man, please listen,

You don't know what you're missing,

Nowhere Man, the world is at your command.(YOU WOULD LIKE TO THINK)

He's as blind as he can be,

Just sees what he wants to see,

Nowhere Man can you see me at all?

Nowhere Man, don't worry,

Take your time, don't hurry,

Leave it all till somebody else lends you a hand.( if only to help U with Ur comprehension problem )

Doesn't have a point of view,

Knows not where he's going to,

Isn't he a bit like you and me?(STRIKE THAT)

Nowhere man please listen,

you don't know what your missing

Nowhere Man, the world is at your command(IS NOT)

He's a real Nowhere Man,

Sitting in his Nowhere Land,

Making all his nowhere plans for nobody.

Making all his nowhere plans for nobody.

Making all his nowhere plans for nobody.

[-] -2 points by highlander21 (-46) 10 years ago

Pretty good lyrics. I didn't know Prince wrote those lyrics. Or was it Freddy Mercury? Nah, it must have been Henry Rollins
Here are some good lines:

Will you still need me

Will you still feed me

When I'm sixty-four

[-] 1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 10 years ago

Unlike you, I've already done that. All of those and more.

This is just the latest, in right wing bullshit.


You just pick at forum posters.

You get banned for it.

You pick a new (self important) nameplate, and do the same thing all over again.

You realize, you'll have to try something else next month, don't you?


You're not practicing the kind of thing they have in mind, but masturbation fits anyway, just on a philosophical level.

Wanna talk about union busting?

Wanna talk about the Koch's?

Wanna talk about the SPN ?

Do you really have any information to add?

[-] -3 points by AlwaysWiIlBeAlwaysRight (-82) 10 years ago

This Occupy forum is not limited to American politics. It never should have been. It's a worldwide hub for Occupy. It's people like you and DKAtoday who have hijacked this place and turned it into yet another US politics forum. It was originally meant for OWS.

Occupy is anarchy, meant to destroy the system. It's not meant to try to reform it piece meal.

[-] 1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 10 years ago


Thrassy, trashed it months ago, with help from ironbolt...something or other, and a whole passel of trolls.

Then there was the gun nutters, the racists, the bigots and just plain haters like yourself.

Not mention all the sock puppets and bot attacks.

I guess you were asleep.

You missed all that.

Or I guess you just don't know, because you weren't here then.

[-] -3 points by AlwaysWiIlBeAlwaysRight (-82) 10 years ago

They were fighting against you who hijacked this site to make it a forum for US politics. All the anarchists left because you don't understand Occupy. You're a shill from moveon.org. A pro democrat. Not an anarchist. You have an effigy of Obama on a mantle just above your bed.

[-] 1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 10 years ago

Pure 100% conspiracy theory from you???????

You should delete yourself immediately!!!!!

Those anarchists??

They're still on twitter, where they've always been.

Do you expect to wake up any time soon?

[-] -2 points by AlwaysWiIlBeAlwaysRight (-82) 10 years ago

Read the early day posts on this website. All anarchists. It went downhill with you, DKAtoday, and VQ who came from moveon.org to co-opt OWS into a pro democrat platform. That's why you always attack people calling them right wing shills. You play inside the system like Obama's little puppet. Everything about you is anti-OWS.

[-] 2 points by shoozTroll (17632) 10 years ago

How do yo know?

You just got here.

The forum IS decidedly "left wing", so I guess I understand your misconceptions.

But you really shouldn't lie about stuff, It's bad for you.

It's like the unhealthy version of.......


[-] -1 points by AlwaysWiIlBeAlwaysRight (-82) 10 years ago

You seem on top of your game. I wasn't aware it was masturbation month. Do you always keep close track of these things? Are you participating in any masturbatons? If so, are geriatrics such as yourself allowed to use viagra?

[-] 2 points by shoozTroll (17632) 10 years ago


Insults, conspiracy theories, misdirection.

What is you think you're on top of??


The link fits you and your puppets perfectly.


[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 10 years ago

It went downhill with you

Due To Ur attacks on the site - attacks you did/made on good supporters of OWS.

So again Ur theme song - that U share with that other long time Shill - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=im9XuJJXylw

[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 10 years ago

Ur theme song - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwAcr-S1LSw

Do U play it on an endless loop?

[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 10 years ago

How come U R not concerned with what is happening in Canada? How come U never support issues that Occupy Canada is concerned about? The attacks on education - the attempts at regression.

OH - that's right - Ur not real - as in U R not a supporter of Occupy - "anywhere".

[-] -3 points by AlwaysWiIlBeAlwaysRight (-82) 10 years ago

I am concerned about those things, but this posting is about US in Afghanistan.

I often talk about Occupy in Canada in other posts. Like this: http://occupywallst.org/forum/montreal-je-taime/

Problem is, you and shooz have hijacked this site. It was once a hub for Occupy worldwide, but you turned it into a forum to talk about US politics.

[-] 2 points by shoozTroll (17632) 10 years ago

You're thinking of twitter.

That's the Worldwide hub.

This is an open forum.

[-] -3 points by AlwaysWiIlBeAlwaysRight (-82) 10 years ago

No, this forum was intended as a place for all occupiers to plan their activities on the ground. That was jart's plan. Unfortunately, people like you hijacked this site to turn it into yet another US politics forum, a pro democrat one at that.

[-] 2 points by shoozTroll (17632) 10 years ago

How would you know?

You just got here.

All you can do about the past here,.........is lie.

and lie you have.

[+] -4 points by AlwaysWiIlBeAlwaysRight (-82) 10 years ago

Exactly, I'm a new comer. So why are you ganging up on me. Do you always attack new comers? Is that how you and your mob rule this site?

[-] 3 points by shoozTroll (17632) 10 years ago

Because if you are a new comer, you're lying through your teeth (figuratively typing).

Why would a new comer, arrive just to insult other posters, while pretending to have an intimate knowledge of the history of the forum?

I do believe that's know as being a troll.

[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 10 years ago

I'm a new comer

BullShit rustybuttheadbrucie.

[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 10 years ago

Sure sure Mr Twister ( #2 ? ) that is why Ur site attacking ass has been repeatedly booted - and those U attack? - not booted. After all this time - and U R still trying to sell that lame ass BS.

[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 10 years ago

Ur theme song - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwAcr-S1LSw

Do U play it on an endless loop?

[-] -3 points by highlander21 (-46) 10 years ago

Fighting a war in the new style (not total) should have been shown to be a failure in Vietnam.
If we are going to be there at all, then lets at least obliterate the enemy and rebuild the nation in our own image. It worked for Germany and Japan.

[-] 0 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 10 years ago

I dont think Germany is an ally to anyone. I think they proved that with Iraq.

And I doubt Japan has gotten over, um.... being nuked!

[-] -3 points by highlander21 (-46) 10 years ago

So you think nuking Japan was unjustified?

[-] 2 points by GirlFriday (17435) 10 years ago


Lesson five.

The following link is the whole enchilada. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KkQk50qtTwo

[-] -3 points by highlander21 (-46) 10 years ago

This is a joke, right? Japan attacked Pearl Harbor. In addition, let us not forget the Bataan Death March in 1942. The Japanese soldier was raised in the code of Bushido - the code of the warrior; to surrender was a mark of utmost shame. 95 percent of the Japanese died in Iwo Jima, Okinawa, and many other islands. The invasion of Japan was forcast to cost 1 million American casualties.
Fire bombing had been going on for months - no surrender.
Nuking was the only viable option at the time, in my opinion.

[-] 3 points by GirlFriday (17435) 10 years ago

It always appeared to us that, atomic bomb or no atomic bomb, the Japanese were already on the verge of collapse."

  • General Henry H. "Hap" Arnold Commanding General of the U.S. Army Air Forces Under President Truman

"I had been conscious of depression and so I voiced to (Sec. Of War Stimson) my grave misgivings, first on the basis of my belief that Japan was already defeated and that dropping the bomb was completely unnecessary, and secondly because I thought that our country should avoid shocking world opinion by the use of a weapon whose employment was, I thought, no longer mandatory as a measure to save American lives. It was my belief that Japan was, at this very moment, seeking a way to surrender with a minimum loss of 'face.' "

  • General Dwight D. Eisenhower

"Japan was at the moment seeking some way to surrender with minimum loss of 'face'. It wasn't necessary to hit them with that awful thing."

  • General Dwight D. Eisenhower

The Myths of August : A Personal Exploration of Our Tragic Cold War Affair With the Atom by Stewart L. Udall

"It is my opinion that the use of this barbarous weapon at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan. The Japanese were already defeated and ready to surrender. My own feeling was that in being the first to use it, we had adopted an ethical standard common to the barbarians of the Dark Ages. I was taught not to make war in that fashion, and wars cannot be won by destroying woman and children."

  • Admiral William D. Leahy Former Chair of the Joint Chiefs of Staff

"I am absolutely convinced that had we said they could keep the emperor, together with the threat of an atomic bomb, they would have accepted, and we would never have had to drop the bomb."

  • John McCloy

"P.M. [Churchill} & I ate alone. Discussed Manhattan (it is a success). Decided to tell Stalin about it. Stalin had told P.M. of telegram from Jap Emperor asking for peace."

  • President Harry S. Truman Diary Entry, July 18, 1945

"Some of my conclusions may invoke acorn and even ridicule.

"For example, I offer my belief that the existence of the first atomic bombs may have prolonged -- rather than shortened - World War II by influencing Secretary of War Henry L. Stimson and President Harry S. Truman to ignore an opportunity to negotiate a surrender that would have ended the killing in the Pacific in May or June of 1945.

"And I have come to view the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombings that August as an American tragedy that should be viewed as a moral atrocity."

  • Stewart L. Udall US Congressman and Author of "Myths of August"

"Certainly prior to 31 December 1945, and in all probability prior to 1 November 1945, Japan would have surrendered even if the atomic bombs had not been dropped, even if Russia had not entered the war, and even if no invasion had been planned or contemplated."

  • U.S. Strategic Bombing Survey's 1946 Study

"Careful scholarly treatment of the records and manuscripts opened over the past few years has greatly enhanced our understanding of why Truman administration used atomic weapons against Japan. Experts continue to disagree on some issues, but critical questions have been answered. The consensus among scholars is the that the bomb was not needed to avoid an invasion of Japan. It is clear that alternatives to the bomb existed and that Truman and his advisers knew it.

That was no joke. You do know who Robert McNamara and LeMay were, right?

[-] 3 points by Renneye (3874) 10 years ago

Beautiful find, GF! Thank you.

[-] 0 points by highlander21 (-46) 10 years ago

Yeah, Robert McNamara - secretary of defense and king of charts in Vietnam. LeMay - if he did say that, then his mind must have changed around 1964 and the bombing of Hanoi.

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 10 years ago

You're making the assumption that LeMay would have been apologetic. I see no reason not to believe that he made the statement to McNamara for the following reasons. He has made the statement elsewhere. Secondly, during WWII there was a lot of discussion of trying those responsible in Germany.

[-] 0 points by highlander21 (-46) 10 years ago

Responsible for the strategic bombing campaign?

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 10 years ago

Allied forces? Under consideration for 15 seconds. I think LeMay saw very clearly through the pretense of just war propaganda and knew without hesitation that had the table been turned he was done. He was 100% correct. The number of civilians that were knowingly, willingly, consciously targeted and killed?

I meant in general there was ongoing discussions over whom could be found and prosecuted. Right before some of the most unlikely groups of people were steadily hiding and transporting the worst of the worst to different countries. But, that's a whole 'nother thing.

[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 10 years ago

ooo that's a mouthful and a half. Too late tonight to give it the attention it needs/deserves.

[-] 3 points by GirlFriday (17435) 10 years ago

That ain't the half of it. If I have anytime then I will dig out my books.

[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 10 years ago

Limited thinking - how about a blockade instead of killing 100's of thousands - in the blink of an eye.

[-] -1 points by highlander21 (-46) 10 years ago

How about begging forgiveness from Japan for the audacity of standing up for ourselves after a cowardly attack?

[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 10 years ago

Sure sure - Nagasaki & Hiroshima - were proportionate justice - Hey? U sick Bastard.

[-] 0 points by highlander21 (-46) 10 years ago

The only reason we didn't bomb more of their cities was because we only had 2 weapons available with no more available until December at least.

[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 10 years ago

Does that make U sad? U sick Bastard.

[-] 0 points by highlander21 (-46) 10 years ago

I imagine it gives a lot of baby boomers (like you?) the opportunity to sit back, relax, and feel bad for what your fathers had to do the save the nation.

[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 10 years ago

I imagine

Yeah - no doubt.

[-] 0 points by highlander21 (-46) 10 years ago

In the end...Japan, the aggressor, bowed to McArthur. And the United States rose to the rank of World Superpower. Seens like a good deal to me. And we didn't force march 10,000 Japanese prisoners after their surrender and bayonet them when they collapsed from exhaustion. I have no need or desire to apologize for anything from slavery to the displacement of Indians.
The mighty and the powerful make the rules and run the world. I am sorry to tell you that.

[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 10 years ago

Well now - ain't U just a tad bit arrogant and full of Ur self ( redundant but it fits )

[-] 1 points by highlander21 (-46) 10 years ago

No. I have just read a lot of history - Napoleon, Genghis Khan, Patton, von Bismark, Churchill, George Marshall, Washington, etc, etc, etc.

What? No Lennon, Sheehan, Yousaf Islam? Nope - they did not and do not set the tone for national and international growth and strength.

[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 10 years ago

So - your position is? What has gone before - is acceptable now?

Me thinks your deliberations on past history is perhaps flawed.

[-] -3 points by AlwaysWiIlBeAlwaysRight (-82) 10 years ago

US asked them to surrender more than once, and they didn't. However, it was unjustified to nuke two populated cities. US could have dropped the bombs on deserted islands to show the power they had. There was really no need to kill millions of innocent civilians.

[-] 2 points by GirlFriday (17435) 10 years ago

Japan made three attempts to negotiate surrender. No one has ever, ever played out unconditional surrender AND in the end Japan still didn't have unconditional surrender.

[-] -3 points by AlwaysWiIlBeAlwaysRight (-82) 10 years ago

Ok. Just read a bit. Japan wanted to surrender, but with the condition that they would keep all the territories that they had acquired. China, Korea, part of the Pacific, etc... It's no wonder US refused under those grounds.

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 10 years ago

You need to go back and read some more. They wanted to keep the Emperor. Again, Lesson Five: Proportionality. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdmfPThGZ-s

[+] -4 points by AlwaysWiIlBeAlwaysRight (-82) 10 years ago

Hmm... I'll have to read up on that. What I remember is that US asked them to surrender but they refused, and started flying kamikaze missions near the end.

[-] -1 points by highlander21 (-46) 10 years ago

This was total war. Better 200,000 civilians than 1 million American soldiers in the planned Japanese invasion. God, many more thoughts like this, and in fifty years people will think America was the bad guy. I