Forum Post: America Is Not A Democracy And It Never Was A Democracy...
Posted 11 years ago on Dec. 19, 2012, 11:21 a.m. EST by KevinPotts
(368)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
“My own view is that we have a very good system designed by the founders and that it has been temporarily hijacked by corporatists.” -therising
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A system that can be hijacked from the very beginning by such an elite minority of Democracy-fearing, slaveholding oligarchs -and perpetuated successfully to this extent and to such a catastrophic degree on so many levels, by such elite corporatists, banksters and capitalist plutocrats, who continue to rule it and to maintain it to this very day, who have managed to get away with it and to remain unchallenged and unchecked for so long is not “a very good system” to begin with if you ask me. “Choosing” between 2 Masters to make all of your decisions for you and for everyone else is not real democracy nor does it by any means make you and everyone else “free”. Being told over and over your entire life that “you are free” and that “you live in a democracy” does not make it so. In a Democratic Republic, which is technically a "Polyarchy" leaning towards "Oligarchy", such as the United States, "we the people" are for the most part, powerless and at the absent mercy of our chosen Masters. We have no real political or economic power.
“None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free.” -Goethe
“The American Revolution was the result of a series of social, political, and intellectual transformations in early American society and government, collectively referred to as the American Enlightenment. Americans rejected the aristocracies that dominated Europe at the time, championing instead the development of republicanism based on the Enlightenment understanding of liberalism. Among the significant results of the revolution was the creation of a democratically-elected representative government responsible to the will of the people. However, sharp political debates erupted over the appropriate level of democracy desirable in the new government, with a number of Founders fearing mob rule.” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Revolution
Those "Founders" who feared Real Democracy and Real Freedom decided WE THE PEOPLE shouldn’t be allowed to have any Real Power, so we never got any. They never trusted us to truly govern ourselves to begin with.
"all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed." -Declaration of Independence 1776
"Experience has taught us, that men will not adopt and carry into execution measures the best calculated for their own good, without the intervention of a coercive power." -George Washington in a letter to John Jay dated August 1, 1786
They viewed us (The People) as a dangerous, irresponsible mob -which was the same type of mentality the British Monarchy used to justify its rule over the British Empire. The same British Empire WE THE PEOPLE Had Just Fought And Died Fighting To Break Ourselves Free From In A Violent, Bloody, Revolutionary War of Independence, Which Required The Sacrifice of The Very Lives of More Than 25,000 American Revolutionaries And Resulted In The Deaths of More Than 20,000 British Loyalists And Allies to "the crown" of the Kingdom of Great Britain. And instead of becoming Truly Free, Truly Liberated And Truly A REAL PEOPLE-POWERED DEMOCRACY, we only ended up trading one Master for another. Just like we still do to this very day every four years when we “vote”.
-Kevin Potts 12 / 21 / 12
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America Is Not A Democracy - Noam Chomsky http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeTbDdl7XiE
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"Our rulers will become corrupt, our people careless. A single zealot may commence persecutor, and better men be his victims. It can never be too often repeated, that the time for fixing every essential right on a legal basis is while our rulers are honest, and ourselves united. From the conclusion of this war we shall be going downhill. It will not then be necessary to resort every moment to the people for support. They will be forgotten, therefore, and their rights disregarded. They will forget themselves, but in the sole faculty of making money, and will never think of uniting to effect a due respect for their rights. The shackles, therefore, which shall not be knocked off at the conclusion of this war, will remain on us long, will be made heavier and heavier, till our rights shall revive or expire in a convulsion."
Thomas Jefferson (Notes on the State of Virginia) 1781
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DIRECT DEMOCRACY = POWER TO THE PEOPLE!
http://occupywallst.org/forum/search/?q=direct+democracy
Direct Democracy Now! http://occupywallst.org/forum/direct-democracy-now/
Direct Democracy - Rally Here http://occupywallst.org/forum/direct-democracy-rally-here/
Now this is what (Direct) Democracy looks like!!! http://occupywallst.org/forum/now-this-is-what-direct-democracy-looks-like/
Direct Democracy = FREEDOM http://occupywallst.org/forum/direct-democracy-freedom/
Vote for Direct Democracy at the national level. http://occupywallst.org/forum/vote-for-direct-democracy-at-the-national-level/
Electronic Direct Democracy http://occupywallst.org/forum/electronic-direct-democracy/
A Vision For A New Democracy - Direct Democracy http://occupywallst.org/forum/a-vision-for-a-new-democracy-direct-democracy/
Democracy 2.0 - we need democracy now .. actually we need direct democracy http://occupywallst.org/forum/democracy-20-we-need-democracy-now-actually-we-nee/
Short, powerful OWS demands: FDR's Economic Bill of Rights and more "direct" democracy http://occupywallst.org/forum/short-powerful-ows-demands-fdrs-economic-bill-of-r/
Direct democracy http://occupywallst.org/forum/direct-democracy/
Direct Democracy v. Delusional Democracy http://occupywallst.org/forum/direct-democracy-v-delusional-democracy/
Direct, Participatory Democracy over the Internet http://occupywallst.org/forum/direct-participatory-democracy-over-the-internet/
The Solution: Developing a True Direct Democracy http://occupywallst.org/forum/the-solution-developing-a-true-direct-democracy/
Direct, participatory, consensus based democracy http://occupywallst.org/forum/direct-participatory-consensus-based-democracy/
Vote for direct democracy Where the people rule! http://occupywallst.org/forum/vote-for-direct-democracy-where-the-people-rule/
Constitution of Direct Democracy http://occupywallst.org/forum/constitution-of-direct-democracy/
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Wouldn’t You Rather TRUST YOURSELF To Make The Best Decisions For You? Wouldn’t You Rather Have A REAL VOICE That Could Make A REAL DIFFERENCE? Wouldn’t You Rather Have THE POWER To Take A Meaningful Part In The Decision Making Process On The Most Paramount Issues That Dramatically Effect Practically Every Aspect Of Our Everyday Lives?
Or would you rather “trust a politician” to do ALL of that for you?
Only content slaves need Masters. And even children do not deserve to be subjugated, neglected and ignored. Nor do "we" deserve to be so subjugated, neglected and ignored. Nor should the blatant suffering of millions and the legitimate grievances of an entire nation continue to be so neglected and ignored. Nor should the poverty and oppression of nearly half of the population of The Wealthiest Nation On Earth continue to be so neglected and ignored. Nor should “Our Natural Rights”, “Our Liberty“ and “Our Independence“ continue to be so neglected and ignored. Nor should “Our Sovereignty“ and “Our Ability To Self-Govern” continue to be so neglected and ignored and superseded by such uncaring, irresponsible and absent “caretakers”.
Are WE THE PEOPLE? Or are we a dangerous, irresponsible mob never to be trusted with our own lives?
-Kevin Potts 12 / 22 / 12
Occupy Our Democracy!
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“There is one thing stronger than all the armies in the world, and that is an idea whose time has come.”
‘Become Part of The Global Movement to Spread Direct Democracy’ Direct Democracy Now! http://www.directdemocracynow.org/
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[ Excerpt: ] http://occupywallst.org/forum/none-are-more-hopelessly-enslaved-than-those-who-f/
"(...) Consider the form of government that the Founders had instituted in contrast to a form of government similar to a Democratic Congress http://occupywallst.org/forum/amendment-for-a-democratic-congress/ that the Founders (including James Madison) would have been opposed to simply for being a democracy. Also consider the actual democracy that has existed in Switzerland since 1848 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voting_in_Switzerland that the United States Congress has never considered for the American people.
We like to refer to our elected officials as being our public servants yet Thomas Jefferson had plainly referred to them as being our rulers. Under the form of government agreed upon by the Founding Fathers, the electing body must obey the laws of the elected body. The electing body cannot create laws for itself. The electing body cannot revoke the laws of the elected body and the most that the electing body can do to affect the members of the elected body who choose not to represent the interests of the electing body is to continue electing members to the elected body. We are obliged to abide by their decisions but they are in no way obliged to abide by our public interests. So, who is truly the servant? ("None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free.") In short, while people talk of fascism as a growing danger to American freedom, the Founding Father republicanism of restricting the people to a representative democracy had been detrimental to American freedom from the start. What just and selfless cause in the interests of liberty could a group of men have had in establishing themselves (or their class) above the collective will and revocation of the people? As they had plainly known, a non-initiative representative democracy is a restrained democracy, an imposition upon the political freedom of the American people, denying them the status of being a sovereign people."
A Democracy
http://occupywallst.org/forum/a-democracy/
Thank You Leo For Sharing That Post! Everybody Needs To Read This, It Should Be Our Manifesto... http://occupywallst.org/forum/a-democracy/
Leo, I did find one technicality that could really add to your post...
Because of MONEY IN POLITICS, The United States IS NOT technically even a Republic, The United States IS an OLIGARCHY Ruled By Corrupt, Elite, Rich Scum Bags Who Give Not One Sh*t About The American People.
Get Money Out http://www.wolf-pac.com/petition?=Fb1013
Money in politics doesn't prevent the United States from being a republic. Even in an imaginary extreme situation in which municipal representatives could only hold office upon passing a civil examination requiring an education that only wealth could provide and then appoint a mayor and collectively with other local cities councils appoint a state legislature representative who would then with other state representatives appoint a governor and federal senate representative who in turn with other federal senate representatives would appoint a president, the form of government, even in the absence of any elections, would still be that of a republic. The influence of wealth at its foundation would not prohibit it from being a republic.
An oligarchy on the other hand is simply the rule of a few which is practically any form of government that's not a democracy and therefore the rule of a majority. In fact, if the democracy is non-inclusive in only allowing for an extremely narrow representation of the population to participate, even such a democracy could very easily be an oligarchy.
So, are you saying the United States can be considered technically a Republic AND an Oligarchy at the same time? Noam Chomsky describes it as a Polyarchy, leaning towards Oligarchy.
Yes. The two terms aren't mutually exclusive. In fact, it can be a few things at the same time. Since oligarchy is an imprecise term pertaining to the rule of a few, it becomes a matter of perspective as to what one considers to be a few. Compared to an inclusive democracy in which everyone of participatory age can participate without discrimination, practically any other form of government can be considered an oligarchy in comparison. The United states can be both an oligarchy and a polyarchy at the same time depending upon what it's being compared to. Certainly, Woodrow Wilson would have considered the United States to have been an oligarchy when he had stated in 1916
"A great industrial nation is controlled by its system of credit. Our system of credit is concentrated. The growth of the Nation, therefore, and all our activities are in the hands of a few men... We have come to be one of the worst ruled, one of the most completely controlled and dominated, governments in the civilized world—no longer a government by free opinion, no longer a government by conviction and the vote of the majority, but a government by the opinion and the duress of small groups of dominant men."
"Counter-Revolution of 1776": Was U.S. Independence War a Conservative Revolt in Favor of Slavery? http://www.democracynow.org/2014/6/27/counter_revolution_of_1776_was_us
I think anything is hijackable. That's why in addition to this: http://occupywallst.org/forum/we-could-do-this-the-easy-way-or-the-hard-way/ . . . we also need to do this (this is the most important of the two): http://occupywallst.org/forum/new-view-why-gun-control-peace-treaties-campaign-f/
We're dealing with a fundamental problem here, whether we have direct democracy, a republic, a socialist government or a communist one. The 2nd link describes how we can go to a deeper level to solve the problem. It's about our worldview, how it is distorted right out of the gate and how it can be reformed. I offer specifics on how I think it happened (Descartes) and how we can overcome it. Check it out when you have time. Thanks.
the founding fathers? oh, you mean the slave owning hypocrites. just to be clear while george washington turned down the king ship he still lived like one. Estimated net worth: $525 million in today's dollars.
His Virginia plantation, "Mount Vernon," consisted of five separate farms on 8,000 acres of prime farmland, run by over 300 slaves. His wife, Martha Washington, inherited significant property from her father. Washington made significantly more than subsequent presidents: his salary was two percent of the total U.S. budget in 1789.
all rich people are evil
all ....... people are ..........
all ....... people are ..........
all ....... people are ..........
I'll tell that to Soros & Moore & Buffet
We have always been a Republic- never a democracy. " I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands". At least they didn't completely lie to us; we just ignored the truth and allowed tyrannical democratic values to ensue.
http://occupywallst.org/forum/none-are-more-hopelessly-enslaved-than-those-who-f/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/free-democracy-amendment/
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Nice try, ain't gonna fly.
Isn't it interesting that the many countries who have freed their people to choose a system of government (not often willingly) have not chosen the American system (nor anarchy) but have, almost unanimously, chosen.... the British system? Hmmmm. Makes you think doesn't it?
As they used to say back home, "Maybe you are barking up the wrong tree."
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Direct Democracy can have some very grave consequences to minority groups. This is something that should be considered.
Elite minority groups free to own and dominate everything political and economical, unrestricted and unrestrained can have some very grave consequences to THE 99%! This is something that should not only be considered but no longer tolerated By The People.
What "very grave consequences to minorities" are you referring to.?
Noam Chomsky -Why The Elites Hate Democracy http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Ux8Q3XC98U
"OWS's goal should be to create a fully democratic society: A society with a democratic government AND A DEMOCRATIC ECONOMY" http://occupywallst.org/forum/ows-goal-should-be-to-replace-capitalism-with-demo/
George Carlin -The Real Owners of The Country http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6oBo8CJxatQ
Want to see the start of a topic regarding a new system for governing a nation more effectively with minimal opportunity for corruption and waste? The potential for real democracy exists here: http://occupywallst.org/forum/dgrc-manifestation-of-departmental-governance/
Depends on how it was hijacked.
KevinPotts wrote: "A system that can be hijacked by corporatists is not “a very good system” to begin with if you ask me."
With certain methods, any system can be hijacked. Do you know how ours was, when, by who?
It was started in 1971 by william powell or in the 1886 SCOTUS decision:
see our corporate personhood timeline
http://corporationsarenotpeople.webuda.com
The first major unconstitutional act of the hijacked federal gov easily could have been the 1886 decision, but it was hijacked with Lincolns assassination. Or, with the North taking british arms manufacturers loans to prevail over the South before the war. They killed Lincoln to assure repayment and create opportunity to take over the colonies again.
The founding of the mic, and 1971 could have been a centennial gesture attempting to reaffirm dominance.
"America will be safe when:
a True participatory democracy that is in sync with our technologically advanced society is enacted, so that our Constitution and Republic may be upheld more maturely, and our social and infrastructure accomplishments will be accelerated by citizen involvement in a robust process of issue/solution development in a collective format.
Now. let's see who brings up false arguments For or Against this statement.
A list of most common fallacies is at bottom of this post. http://occupywallst.org/forum/direct-democracy-the-ultimate-troll-trap/
Direct Democracy a free public service (...)"
Nice sentence! I comment on the effort here.
http://occupywallst.org/forum/direct-democracy-the-ultimate-troll-trap/#comment-898885
BTW, we need free speech unabridged before direct democracy can be effective. Mass media is working against us, which is something we can prove and legally reverse with Article V, Preparatory Amendment assures the nation is constitutional before a general convention proceeds. Making Article V safe and constitutional.
That's all well and good, but it doesn't address my statement, nor does it answer my questions to you, nor does it make clear your intent.
Besides........Jesse Ventura and Howard Stern as a presidential ticket?
WTF is all I have to say about uponlocal.
Thats a very interesting question and one that needs to be discussed.
Is this the question you refer to?
With certain methods, any system can be hijacked. Do you know how ours was, when, by who?
I've been trying to tell you to look at your own state of Florida, and now Michigan too.
Both have become prime examples of corporate takeovers.
And trust me at has little to do with traffic control.
I have a feeling the takeover begun long before I was even on this planet. Thats what Im talking about.
Scott will be voted out. And hopefully so will Buckhorn that spineless coward for not calling the police off of us and letting us do our thing. Telling us that we have no right to use the public parks downtown, that have no people enjoying them anyways. Permits for more than 50 people.
God forbid people actually practice self governance and get the public involved. You would think with the direction this country is going, it would be welcomed with open arms.
They can all kiss my ass.
You're speaking only in political terms.
You have not addressed the corporate takeover.
The corporate takeover is a result of a lack of self governance, in my opinion.
What is yours?
It's the result of multi-pronged marketing/PR.
It's more effective than you are willing to admit.
I've explained this to you before, under your previous username.
And I explained that it is just a technitque. Its just streamlining messaging through multiple mediums. Its called integrated marketing. PR is just a part of it. The best campaigns are also interactive, which is why you see politicians now going to social media with nonsense.
When people get engaged, they see through it. When they dont, they fall for it. Chicken and the egg. Which one leads which?
Ed Bernays.
Just clicked on his wiki page, looks very interesting.
All you're doing is blaming the hypnotized for their induced behavior.
Most of today's behavioral studies are done for marketing purposes, even if that was not the intent, if the study is applicable it is bought by them..
Blaming? I just said the god damn thing looked interesting.
Wage "slavery" is the same as chattel slavery. There is no difference between selling yourself and renting yourself.
"Slavery never ended in the United States."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x54VcPVl_DE
What about the tearing children from your arms and selling them off?
Or the imprisonment, whipping, chasing with dogs, & lynching?
Or the raping of you're wife?
That's different isn't it?
Well, we could try it.
You think we should try slavery? Is that a joke?
It doesn't hurt to experiment with democracy sometimes. That's part of what Occupy is about.
George Carlin - On Voting http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6dqsNrmXgP0
It's messy, democracy; not like greed, that's simple and clean.
On Goethe.
None of us are free, we are all slaves to the universe.
Enjoy.
So what's your point?
Is this an endorsement of Florida style, treasonous voter suppression?
An endorsement of "right to work"?
An endorsement of ALEC?
the point is that if waste time with impossible dreams while alec & nra & grover & david & charlie & tp & grover are DOING something, we will lose
whatever we want to label it, IT did give us great people to lead us -
because WE elected them into our government
and too many of us were stupid enough & lazy enough to believe the liars like ronnie & george and so we got trickle down & 911 & Iraq
He's just another one that has finally mastered copy and paste.
Another that never gives a direct, applicable answer.
Whoop.
Jeeezzaaass fucking Christ, the Bull Shit is flowing hot and extremely putrid!!!
Direct Democracy - The Ultimate Troll Trap http://occupywallst.org/forum/direct-democracy-the-ultimate-troll-trap/
Mickey D's would win best restaurant.
Better education and news media would be necessary.
In our current spiral toward "Idiocracy," DD would be a real and dangerous problem.
Complacency means that only those who care about their own futures, and that of their offspring, would be bothered voting, which is exactly what the situation is right now, without the corruption and vote rigging.
So, what would direct democracy do, to make for a "real and dangerous problem"??
That must be the Aussie definition of "Complacency." Here it means allowing or being duped into electing and reelecting Nixon, Raygun and Cheney, thinking it's in your best interest. Yours sounds nice, ours is a mental seizure.
Not sure you understand how bad the state of American News Media is here, it's utterly pathetic and alarming.
We have a top Broadcast Media Network ~ Fox Lies ~ which is an openly designated Propaganda arm of the RepubliCon Cult. Where's the outrage?
We have RW Hate and Lie Propaganda Radio [ http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Conservative_talk_radio ] that BLASTS 24/365/every city with complete impunity. Where's the law?
And we have a Main Stream Media which is owned by the same 1% who own the RepubliCon Cult and has many double agents, DINOs, in the Democratic Party. News is written and reported with the survival of a career as the top priority.
In the last two months, the last two Progressive Radio stations in the NW went to 24/365 Sports.
Our PBS has been so beat up by Cons, there is barely one regular show that even politely contradicts the RW Propaganda or Policies.
And as a result, with this latest Fiscal Hostage Crisis stunt by Congressional Cons, all most people learned is that Guvmint is some fucked up shit!
"So, what would direct democracy do, to make for a "real and dangerous problem"??"
Give incredibly ignorant and gullible Americans the ability to make their illconceived/propagandized ideas/suggestions the law of the land: McGovernment! Want fries with that?
The representation buffer actually saves us from a lot of bad decisions. We have DD (or direct play) for idiotic singing and dancing TV contests, one shutters at the thought of them playing democracy, so accessibly. And you think we have an access to guns problem! OMF-ingG!
I have no answer for your fatalist attitude, my friend.
What you're telling me is that you don't trust your own people at all.
Am I getting that? Or you're hedging?
I'm just telling the truth and you think it's hell!
I don't think my "attitude" is the least bit relevant, I'm reporting to you the state of our info/pop/pols union from ground level. Did you not know we were in this state? Don't you believe me? Is this not alarming to you? What?
Possibly because of my ancestry, I don't give up, and I maintain hope, but I'm also a realist. What I'm telling you is a bunch of American Idol and Dancing with the Stars fans can't safely "directly" control our government. They don't even know what government does or what it's for!
Our education system is failing, too. That's another whole soggy bag of greasy fries.
I understand your angst, and the reason for it.
What I don't understand is your attitude towards the possibility of direct democracy. You simply deride it as worse than what is available currently. Can you propose a better system/concept/idea that might make a difference for all of us?
Thanks in advance.
You're not answering me. Did you not know we were in this sorry state? Don't you believe me? Is this not alarming to you? What?
Right now, they would elect Justin Bieber for President and Nicki Minaj for Speaker of the House. And any and every policy Big $ wished would come true.
Information is the key, unity is the way!
Information is the key. Unity is the way. Perfect. Agreed.
And what better way to share information than the free press, and to ascertain how people are digesting that information than direct democratic action with online polls?
We are on the same page, if you can see it that way.
You're still not answering me. Did you not know we were in this sorry state? Don't you believe me? Is this not alarming to you? What?
What about what the poster wrote do you not buy? It seems to me every thing he wrote was exactly the way it truly was and to a small degree still is.
The only difference i can tell from then and now is that public opinion pays a bigger role in determining what are masters, Congress, pass as law. But the crux, we were never meant to be a democracy and we are not one now, rings true.
Democracy is messy, nuanced, contradictory, this confuses some people.
Mickey D's would win best restaurant.
Better education and news media would be necessary.
In our current spiral toward Idiocracy, DD would be a real and dangerous problem.