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Forum Post: Vote for direct democracy Where the people rule!

Posted 2 years ago on July 5, 2012, 4:50 a.m. EST by rickMoss (435)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

Vote for direct democracy where the people are in charge not big business and the banks: http://www.osixs.org/Vote.aspx

Then learn what it really means:

U.S. Citizens Read “Common Sense 3.1” at ( http://revolution2.osixs.org )

Non U.S. Citizens Read “Common Sense 3.2” at ( http://SaveTheWorldNow.osixs.org )

If you know the world around you is collapsing and you do nothing about it, then who’s really at fault when you stood by and did nothing? We have to stop whining and do something about it. We don’t have to live like this anymore.

152 Comments

152 Comments


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[-] 3 points by bensdad (8977) 2 years ago

The simple key to American freedom is returning the government to the people by removing the influence of money.


One way might be direct democracy.
How many polls have shown that a majority of Americans WANT DD?
How many polls have shown that a majority of Americans even know what DD is?


Another way is to pass a constitutional amendment
to overturn Citizens United & Buckley.
80% of Americans already approve an amendment


Citizens United & Corporate Personhood Amendment

http://corporationsarenotpeople.webuda.com

For a complete analysis of the amendment issue,
and the text of all amendments,
and a comparison of all of the amendments,
and the Citizens United case transcript,
and the Citizens United decision,
and the Buckley decision
and analysis of corporate personhood
and analysis of Article III
and the ABC News poll
and the PFAW poll
and our voting bloc plan

join us:
http://nycga.net/groups/restore-democracy

REGULAR MEETINGS: Wednesdays 5:30-7:30PM @ 60 Wall St – The Atrium

[-] 0 points by rickMoss (435) 2 years ago

Yes, I've seen these kind of plans before. I'm pretty old and I'm an engineer. Maybe something like this would've helped 40 or 50 years ago. The problems we have today are huge and complex. You are suggesting we use a spit ball when we need a hydrogen bomb. OsiXs has the only Hydrogen bomb that can help us now. It's called the "nuclear option" and for good reason.

As far as polls go they mean nothing. Most Americans don't know what DD is or what it looks like. And neither do you. Because if you did, you would embarrassed that you mentioned something as mundane as an amendment while the whole world is on fire. That's our real challenge, education. That's why I'm here, to let people know that we have another choice. And you better believe you’ll never get if from the main stream media.

FIGHT THE CAUSE - NOT THE SYMPTOM OsiXs (Revolution 2.0)

[-] 3 points by bensdad (8977) 2 years ago

I'm kind of old & have an engineering degree
"FIGHT THE CAUSE - NOT THE SYMPTOM"
I am ACTUALLY doing something to promote a REAL solution-
what Americans WANT
NOT what they don't understand
NOT what CANNOT be done


Is there any country with 50,000,000 people where direct democracy has actualy worked for at least 5 years?


Can you explain exactly what problem would be solved by DD
if all political contributions and lobbying were eliminated by one constitutional amendment ?


Please consider- Citizens United & Corporate Personhood Amendment

http://corporationsarenotpeople.webuda.com

For a complete analysis of the amendment issue, and the text of all amendments, and a comparison of all of the amendments, and the Citizens United case transcript, and the Citizens United decision, and the Buckley decision and analysis of corporate personhood and analysis of Article III and the ABC News poll and the PFAW poll and our voting bloc plan

[-] 1 points by rickMoss (435) 2 years ago

This is the same kind of thinking that keeps the 99% in a rut while their lives go to hell. The 1% want you to think in small minded terms. The want you to think you're to weak to accomplish anything of significance. It keeps you in your place. We have to do big things to solve huge problems. what your advocating is more piece mill, small thinking that wont solve much at all. But I won't piss on your idea like you pissed on what I'm advocating because I would think we are after the same thing. So I will say, press on and hope you success because in the end your success is my success, and my success is yours.

FIGHT THE CAUSE - NOT THE SYMPTOM OsiXs (Revolution 2.0 - The Smart Revolution!)

[-] 2 points by Eion (1) from Christchurch, Canterbury 2 years ago

Nice post.

Little video I made not so long ago when I was thinking about the events of the past year again.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-vTRwTCJ6w&list=UURNPfoVP54p374RaRF8EuCw&index=2&feature=plcp

[-] 1 points by Proteus (141) from Quebec, QC 2 years ago

That is not enough, direct democracy is a piece of the puzzle, nothing more, you got to recreate everything from scratch, take a space on the planet and grow that space from logical laws.

I invented A&D, that's a true system where people have power in an adequate manner, i invented a new monetary system too, where human life energy and tax is given its true place.

You can read about it in my book "Life Reality" it is free on Smashwords.

It is all brand new stuff not taken anywhere, i'm open to modifications, but first you'll have to understand it and what is at stake, it is a whole project to create a brand new reality based on new principles, revolutionary beyond anything that ever existed.

[-] 1 points by rickMoss (435) 2 years ago

By all means lets see it. Where's your website?

FIGHT THE CAUSE - NOT THE SYMPTOM

OsiXs (The Nuclear Option)

[-] 1 points by Phanya2011 (908) from Tucson, AZ 2 years ago

If you haven't already, check out World Future Society at www.wtf.org.

[-] 1 points by rickMoss (435) 2 years ago

Thanks, will do...

FIGHT THE CAUSE - NOT THE SYMPTOM OsiXs (More Power and Technology to the People!)

[-] 1 points by tatathai (2) 2 years ago

Many people don't realize how much power we have if we stand together. It is time we start teaching large corporations and governments not to treat us like fodder. Perhaps we should identify the worst Oil company in terms of excessive profiteering, pollution and general greed. Then we mobilize people globally to stop buying fuel from that company from a certain date. We could bankrupt them within weeks. This might send a message to the remaining companies to follow fair business practice or face the same treatment. Same could be said for banks. Although all of us withdrawing our money from a bank might hurts some innocent people, in the long run it would teach them a lesson. We have the power people. Isn't it time we started using it?

[-] 1 points by rickMoss (435) 2 years ago

It's too hard to fight every little fight. You can't have an elephant try to stump every little ant. We get tired. OsiXs has the best plan for the people that i've ever seen. And also, once enough people learn that we are free, everything will change.

How else can I say this? "We Are Free!" http://WeAreFree.osixs.org

[-] 1 points by atki4564 (1259) from Lake Placid, FL 2 years ago

I completely agree, but all you are saying is the today's government needs to be terminated and replaced with direct democracy (no more). However, you need a new constitution specifying, exactly, what that new direct democracy will be. Why? Because you will never get the necessary 75% state legislature approval to override today's constitution otherwise. So, what exact new constitution do you propose, such as: https://docs.google.com/a/strategicinternationalsystems.com/document/pub?id=1mKKLMTIyvRCLK2ppPj_GDjdieCvJnATaZaCmlajubWU

[-] 1 points by rickMoss (435) 2 years ago

I agree. The new constitution would probably be drafted in the "Execution of dissolution process". It will be up to all the states to ratify it. It's not up to me what goes into the new constitution. It will be up to the people, all of us. Your link looks more like a ponzi scheme. I don't think that would fly with the American people.

FIGHT THE CAUSE - NOT THE SYMPTOM OsiXs (More Power and Technology to the People!)

[-] 1 points by atki4564 (1259) from Lake Placid, FL 2 years ago

Did you read the 2nd paragragh explaining why it's not a ponzi scheme?

[-] 1 points by rickMoss (435) 2 years ago

I didn't read all of it but I read enough to know that it was inferior to OsiXs and the OsiXs plan. Just to be fair I went back and took another look. Someone put a lot of work into the document. But it's really no comparison to OsiXs.Your plan is kind of like a Multi level marketing deal or system. It didn't address or even acknowledge many of the important issues, especially technological unemployment. OsiXs is put together by scientist and Engineers. They are light years ahead of anything I've ever seen or heard of. I've researched them backwards and forwards. That's why I stand by there Ideas, strategy and plan 100%.

Thanks for the heads up...

FIGHT THE CAUSE - NOT THE SYMPTOM

OsiXs (Revolution 2.0)

[-] 1 points by atki4564 (1259) from Lake Placid, FL 2 years ago

I joined your OsiXis site, and I read its great many pages. It lists all the problems. Good. It's says you need an online democracy. Great. It doesn't define that online democracy.

Not so good, so you need an object-oriented constitution (or software specification) that does solve the many problems listed, which I have given to you (for free, change it, whatever we can agree-upon, okay).

But most importantly, you need to give the people a way to vote on your object-oriented constitution (whatever we agree-upon, called direct democracy step 1), which you haven't.

I use Yahoo Groups for voting, okay?

These are the improvements you and your friends, which includes me now, need to make. I'll help with analysis and programming, but are we agreed on these simple things, like software specification and voting, which we need to get done?

For Interim Voting?

http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/StrategicInternationalSystems/

For Software Specification? A starting point? Which you don't have.

https://docs.google.com/a/strategicinternationalsystems.com/document/pub?id=1mKKLMTIyvRCLK2ppPj_GDjdieCvJnATaZaCmlajubWU

[-] 1 points by rickMoss (435) 2 years ago

I don't think you can learn everything or fix the world by reading web pages. The point is to get the word out to people that don't know we have a choice. Yes, I checked your links before. There nowhere near a sophisticated as OsiXs. Nice try.

FIGHT THE CAUSE - NOT THE SYMPTOM OsiXs (Revolution 2.0 - The Smart Revolution!)

[-] 1 points by rickMoss (435) 2 years ago

I don't think you can learn everything or fix the world by reading web pages. The point is to get the word out to people that don't know we have a choice. Yes, I checked your links before. There nowhere near a sophisticated as OsiXs. Nice try.

FIGHT THE CAUSE - NOT THE SYMPTOM OsiXs (Revolution 2.0 - The Smart Revolution!)

[-] 1 points by atki4564 (1259) from Lake Placid, FL 2 years ago

Okay, now you're sounding like a ponzi because OsiXis has nothing but propaganda on its site. It's not a mathematical (or technical or legal) solution to anything. That is, unless I missed a page you'd like to SPECIFICALLY point to which isn't the so-called "dissolution" propaganda. Get real.

[-] 1 points by rickMoss (435) 2 years ago

Don't be angry because I don't agree with your ideas or choices. You can attack my choices if you please. I stand behind my choice 100%. I would stand behind OsiXs any day until someone came up with something better. I use to support the zeitgeist movement and the Venus project because they were best before I found the ideas and technology of OsiXs. I would be embarrassed to support what you promote. I'm an educated engineer by trade. I don't suffer fools lightly. OsiXs is tops. Now top that with any organization or think tank with better ideas for saving this country and I'm in. Your scheme is for fools. It's a ponzi scheme mixed with multi-level-marketing. Dude! We have that already. It's called Wall street. it's predatory multi-level-marketing. Now go away little boy, you bother me.

“Be Smart!” - FIGHT THE CAUSE - NOT THE SYMPTOM

U.S. Citizens Read “Common Sense 3.1” at ( http://revolution2.osixs.org )

Non U.S. Citizens Read “Common Sense 3.2” at ( http://SaveTheWorldNow.osixs.org )

[-] 1 points by SparkyJP (1646) from Westminster, MD 2 years ago

When over 80 percent of Americans see the nation on the wrong track it is fair to conclude that representative government has failed. The two-party plutocracy has too much power. This is the ideal time to recognize the limits of electoral, representative democracy and become an advocate for more direct democracy.

Indeed, many people want some way of creating a federal ballot initiative mechanism whereby the misdeeds or inaction of government could be addressed by Americans voting directly to get the transparent and accountable government and effective public policies they want. A national ballot measure to end the Iraq war would have succeeded in 2006, for example. Putting Democrats in control of Congress did not work. Do we need the ability to recall a president because of dishonesty, incompetence and wrongheaded policies? Yes.

President Theodore Roosevelt, in 1912, wisely observed "I believe in the Initiative and Referendum, which should be used not to destroy representative government, but to correct it whenever it becomes misrepresentative." Direct democracy is all about converting the notion of sovereignty of we the people into reality.

It comes to this: Should we be content to put our faith in elected representative or should we put it in ourselves? When you vote for candidates you don’t put your faith in yourself, you put it in them. Haven’t we been disappointed enough in those elected? We have less to fear from the will of the majority than from the actions of dishonest, corrupt and plutocracy-serving elected officials.

For political reform seeking Americans the litmus test for presidential candidates should be whether they support more direct democracy. If Obama is not just about rhetorical change, but a true reformer of the political system, then we need to hear from him on this issue.

Let him explain whether or not he supports what Ralph Nader does, who has said that presidential candidates should “put front and center empowering the American people in direct democracy format so they can move in when their so-called representatives cave in to the interests of big business. …Campaign finance reform has got to go hand in hand with direct democracy like initiative, referendum, recall.” His current platform says that we need “more direct democracy reflecting the preamble to our constitution which starts with ‘we the people,’ and not ‘we the corporations.’”

Can you imagine Obama saying these things? I can’t.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=108x132943

[-] 1 points by rickMoss (435) 2 years ago

Well put Sparky!

FIGHT the CAUSE - NOT the SYMPTOM

OsiXs (The Nuclear Option)

[-] 1 points by atki4564 (1259) from Lake Placid, FL 2 years ago

You need to list your customer and employee benefits as quickly as possible in your site, and related mathematical model for achieving them thereafter, so perhaps we have something in common here: https://docs.google.com/a/strategicinternationalsystems.com/document/pub?id=1mKKLMTIyvRCLK2ppPj_GDjdieCvJnATaZaCmlajubWU

[-] 1 points by SparkyJP (1646) from Westminster, MD 2 years ago

Good post. I don't know what it will take to awaken the American people; but voting for a D or R is similar to a dog chasing his own tail. The Egyptian people are now looking at this system as an option .... while we continue with our broken system. Wake-Up America !!

The world is a dangerous place, not because of those who do evil, but because of those who look on and do nothing. ~Albert Einstein

[-] 0 points by LeoYo (5854) 2 years ago

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."

[-] -2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

What are you suggesting we do if not vote for the party duopoly.? Can we co opt one of the parties? Isn't the problem that people have stayed home and done "nothing" like your einstein quote suggests.

The people through real protest can take one of the parties back from the 1% plutocrats. Staying home is what the 1% wants of the (OWS supporters) progressives. No?

[-] 2 points by rickMoss (435) 2 years ago

Even if you had the money to take over a party it won't fix the problem that is government. Our government is over 233 years old. It is unable to support the people. That's the real problem. It is not only old it is corrupt to the core. That includes all branches including the judicial branch. That's why the founding fathers gave us the "nuclear option". The ability to abolish our old government and rebuild it with something new and better.

"There never was a democracy yet that did not commit suicide." -John Adams, letter to John Taylor (15 April 1814).

They knew democracies grow old and corrupt.

FIGHT THE CAUSE - NOT THE SYMPTOM

OsiXs (Democracy 2.0)

[-] 2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

So what are you suggesting we do.? Overthrow the govt? How? I'm with you. What can I do to help.?

[-] 1 points by rickMoss (435) 2 years ago

You can't over-throw yourself. We are the government. We need to rebuild our government so that it works. The only way to do that is to use the "Nuclear Option". We have the right to fundamentally change or abolish our present government. The question is, how do we do this and what do we change our present form of government to. This is the beauty of Osixs. They have the best ideas, strategy and plans i've ever seen or heard of.

Read “Common Sense 3.1” at ( http://revolution2.osixs.org ) and don't stop until you understand what the "Nuclear option" means and how it works. I can promise you this. It's brilliant. and it's probably the only chance we have. We need smart solutions like this. It's insane to think we are going to solve our problems by protesting. We have to be smarter.

FIGHT THE CAUSE - NOT THE SYMPTOM

OsiXs (Revolution 2.0 - The Smart Revolution)

[-] 0 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

So when I ask "what do you think we should do?" you say "read this"?

No thanks. Just say it. How about just the 1st steps.

If you can't verbalize what your group believes we should do then I guess you don't understand it. Maybe you don't believe in it entirely.

What you have done clearly is demean the current tactics and efforts of the brave people on the front line trying to create change for all the 99%.

Good luck with the tactics you can't speak of.!

Peace

[-] 1 points by rickMoss (435) 2 years ago

Now we're getting somewhere. You're sore because you know and I know your tactics are childish and ineffective. You probably mean well but you're tactics aren't tactics at all. It's more like a child throwing a temper tantrum. And you're surprised that the power structure is treating you like a step child. DAH!

Your words: "If you can't verbalize what your group believes we should do then I guess you don't understand it."

What else is new. More childishness on your part. For one, we are the same group, supposedly after the same thing. I bring you what I believe or new and better ideas to move us all forward. Instead of attacking the ideas you attack the messenger which lets me know what we both know. The ideas are superior to yours. I should have known. Just like a child. You're not a serious grown up. Now go away. Go play with yourself.

FIGHT THE CAUSE - NOT THE SYMPTOM OsiXs (Revolution 2.0 - The Smart Revolution!)

[-] 3 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

Then you don't want my support?

Good luck

Peace & Solidarity

[-] 1 points by SparkyJP (1646) from Westminster, MD 2 years ago

Can we co opt one of the parties? Sure, if you have enough money ............. Money's the only thing that the two corrupt corporate parties respond to. Is that what we want though .... for legislators to be bribed into representing us and doing their job? It's akin to blackmail and we can do better than that.

As to "people staying home" - It rings of mainstream media 'talking points'. Unplug my friend. The majority of congress is in the 1%, and have no interest in representing you ...... no matter how much we protest. I wish that it wasn't so.

Cheers

[-] -3 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

Until move to amend succeeds at ending corp personhood/money as speech we must continue doing the only thng we can. Protests. We must attempt to influence all pols with our numbers.

The people united can never be defeated. We can donate/contribute but not as much as the 1%. But we have the numbers.

Shouldn't we use our numbers to protest/pressure/agitate all pols to pass progressive policies?

So WHAT are you suggesting we do in 4 months when there is another election.?!

[-] 2 points by rickMoss (435) 2 years ago

Protesting isn't a solution. We protest because we think we don't have any other recourse. This post was made to let you know you have another choice. Vote for direct democracy where the people are in charge not big business and the banks: http://www.osixs.org/Vote.aspx

The 1% percent don't care if you protest. You will only give them more justification to hang us with. I'm afraid that will lead to more unrest farther destabilizing the country and the economy. We have to be smarter or they're going to keep eating our lunch. If people don't get their way with protesting some people go to the extremes, maybe even terrorism. It will happen eventually because things aren't going to change with loud talk and silly signs.

FIGHT THE CAUSE - NOT THE SYMPTOM

OsiXs (Revolution 2.0 - The Smart Revolution)

[-] 2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

"silly signs"? You sound contemptuous of OWS tactics!.

Ok so your saying no protesting, and no voting! Right?

What are you saying we should do?

"fight the cause, not the symptom" what does that mean exactly?

[-] 1 points by rickMoss (435) 2 years ago

Yes, it makes me angry. We've done this over and over and what did it get us in the 60's and beyond. People gave in and sold out because protesting didn't work then and it won't work now. The problems we face today are huge and much worse. More and more of us are going to be chewed up by the system because we simply don't know any better. I'm saying there's a much better way. But you have educate yourself. You have to think for yourself. Getting people hurt and jailed in these protests are a waist of our troops. Just like our troops got wasted in Vietnam and Iraq. It's called Poor, leadership.

FIGHT THE CAUSE - NOT THE SYMPTOM

OsiXs (Revolution 2.0 - The Smart Revolution)

It means we keep failing because we keep attacking and fighting the wrong problems. We lash out at the symptoms.

[-] 2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

Right. What should we do?

[-] 2 points by rickMoss (435) 2 years ago

Vote for direct democracy where the people are in charge not big business and the banks: http://www.osixs.org/Vote.aspx

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

Great. Sounds interesting.

How do I do that in the next election?

Peace.

[-] 2 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

convince people to vote with there names

[-] 1 points by rickMoss (435) 2 years ago

Oh, I don't know. Try taking your finger out of your butt!

FIGHT THE CAUSE - NOT THE SYMPTOM OsiXs (More Power and Technology to the People!)

[-] 4 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

You think insulting me will endear me to your cause.? LOL

Your OsiXs seems a bit like cultish propaganda.

I am (like the OWS supporters I've met) an independent thinker. OsiXs needs non thinking, blind followers.?

Most OWS supporters are also decent, peaceful people. Not meanspirited, nasty verbally abusive people like you and your fellow OsiXs cult followers seem to lean.

Good luck.

Peace & Solidarity

[-] 1 points by rickMoss (435) 2 years ago

dude! I just answered your smart remark with my own smart remark. Nothing personal. Obviously I know nothing about your finger or your butt. Just a little fun. Yah right, we're mean people, cultish. Dude, we are the same people. We have the same problems. I've already done my job. I think OWS is ok but it's starting to die just like the tea party and the Obama bandwagon. All talk and no new ideas. What did you expect? There is no plan. And you'll see things continue to deteriorate. I mean what else is the plan except occupy something or another. What, are you going to make your signs even bigger. LOL Don't be so sensitive. Life is short and then you die. To make the best of it, try not to make the same mistakes over and over.

FIGHT THE CAUSE - NOT THE SYMPTOM

OsiXs (Direct Democracy)

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

I'm not too sensitive. You ain't hurt my feelings. I have a preference of conversing, and searching for strategies/tactics in a respectful, civil way.

You apparently have a different opinion about the best approach to bringing people to an idea, or finding solutions/strategies.

I think putting people down, calling them names is fun (I've done it to people I don't like) It is certainly how we have been conditioned in our culture. I kinda think it is one of the fundamental problems we must address. I think we can start small, at the individual level.

Your approach is too much like the the schoolyard bullying tactics of the candidate Romney. You don't support him do you?

[-] 1 points by rickMoss (435) 2 years ago

Off course I don't support Romney. I don't even support our president. Even though he is the lesser of 2 evils.

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

I read your petition. I've signed many others. I don't see that many people have signed on (if your numbers are valid). I certainly agree that the people should get our govt back from the plutocrats. I certainly agree that people in power never give it up without a fight, and in America there is lot of money at stake. This will make it most difficult.

Since you clearly have no respect for the tactics of OWS. I don't see why I should have any respect for your petition but if I see it grow to the requisite size I may sign. Unfortunately at the current rate I think it will be several decades before you achieve any real numbers.

And you do not appear to appreciate the concept of working with others since your comments are offensive to these hard working brave souls at OWS who are taking action and sacrificing there time and freedom for you and all the 99%. Not the best way to build support.! Good luck.

[-] 0 points by rpc972 (628) from Portland, OR 2 years ago

Protesting is not a solution but it can lead to one. It can Wake People Up to the fact that we are in a Class War which we are losing. That we need to Vote and reclaim our democracy, our weapon against tyranny. That Big $ shows up for every election, and we don't. That the squeaky wheel still gets all the grease. And that if you are not part of the Vote, You're part of the problem!

[-] 0 points by rickMoss (435) 2 years ago

As Bill Clinton would say, I feel your pain. But seriously, the people are already aware. They know the country is going to hell and their wages are stagnating. But nothing has worked. They’re just starting to learn that it really doesn’t matter who they vote for not much is going to change. That’s the problem. If you keep doing the same thing over and over, what on earth makes you think you will achieve a different outcome? That’s insane! That is Albert Einstein’s definition of insanity, not mine. Most of us know our government is corrupt and we do nothing about it. The people don’t know what to do. Corruption is not the only thing wrong with our government, our economic system, our financial systems, big business and the banks. Protesting what everyone is already aware of is a brave thing to do, but it doesn’t fix this huge mess. How do you get corruption out of government and all these other institutions? How do we fix all these other institutions? I’m tired of whining, griping and protesting about all the problems that never get fixed because in reality no one has a way to do that. Not until now. That’s what I like about OsiXs. It gives you a real plan of attack with a strategy which releases the true power of the people. Shouting at people who don’t care is pointless. Let’s face it, It makes us look weak and desperate because we are. The 99% are so lost that we don’t know what else to do except protest. What next if we can’t get our way? Do we turn to violence? Do we turn into terrorism? Do we try to over through the government. The government is planning for all of this because they know it’s coming. They know they have no way of fixing all of our problems which means the people are going to have to suffer. It’s a lot easier to oppress the people than it is to solve the complex problems we face today. It’s cheaper too. Our government is not capable and they know it. So they have no choice but to control the situation as best they can. That’s why they’re slowly taking away all our rights.

Your statement: “if you’re not part of the vote you’re part of the problem” You can’t fix a flawed, corrupt system by using a flawed, corrupt system. I don’t know what else to tell you.

FIGHT THE CAUSE - NOT THE SYMPTOM OsiXs (Direct Democracy)

[-] 2 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

What next if we can’t get our way? Do we turn to violence? Do we turn into terrorism?

where the fuck did that come from ?

[-] 1 points by rickMoss (435) 2 years ago

Your words: "Where the fuck did that come from?" Where the fuck do you think? You think this wont get worse. You think this shit won't hit the fan. I'm saying - What the fuck are you going to do when your childish behavior doesn't work?

FIGHT THE CAUSE - NOT THE SYMPTOM OsiXs (Revolution 2.0 - The Smart Revolution!)

[-] 1 points by rpc972 (628) from Portland, OR 2 years ago

The system is flawed because Big $ controls it! We the People have ceded it to them by encouraged abandonment, neglect and ignorance!!!

No, We the People "aren't aware." Learning that "nothing works" and Voting "makes no difference" is the brainwash swill Big $ wants us to believe! Is this your naivete or deception? Either way it's DEAD WRONG!!

Orwell's "Newspeak" and "Doublethink" are in full operation.

This jerk is definitely a Big Part of the Problem!!

Get out the Vote, people!! If it didn't matter these bastards wouldn't be trying soooo fucking hard to suppress it!! And they will stop at nothing!!!

[-] 0 points by rickMoss (435) 2 years ago

Are you kidding. Get out the vote is your answer. We've been voting for more 236 years and look where we are. No, you and your blind ignorance are the problem. That's what the 1% want the 99% to keep doing and thinking, like little rats on a tread mill going around in circles on the way to nowhere.

“Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result” ~ Albert Einstein

Think about it - "ASSWHOLE"

FIGHT THE CAUSE - NOT THE SYMPTOM OsiXs (More Power and Technology to the People!)

[-] 2 points by rpc972 (628) from Portland, OR 2 years ago

Get out the Vote, people!! Just like the Bigs always do!!

If it "didn't matter" these RW-1% bastards wouldn't be trying soooo fucking hard (spending "Undisclosed" $$Millions) to suppress it!! And they will stop at nothing!!!

[-] 1 points by SparkyJP (1646) from Westminster, MD 2 years ago

I'm not suggesting anyone do anything. That's their decision and their conscious . Personally, I'm voting third party, but I also think that trying to effect change in a corrupt system; from within that same corrupt system, is fruitless. I am voting because it's the ONLY tool I have .... Not because I think it will make a difference. Since I'm voting by mail, the effort and cost is small.

"It's not the vote that counts. It's who counts the votes."

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

Yes that is a clever trueism. I would suggest that the most important tool you (and I) have is the tool of protest.

It will take years to change this corrupt system. This movement needs to grow. Protest/pressure/agitation is our best tools.

"The people United, will never be defeated"

[-] 1 points by LeoYo (5854) 2 years ago

The percentage of people voting is irrelevent so long as they're all still voting for the same duopoly. If you want to take control of one of the parties to make a change, you'll have to get at least 33% of a voting district to back an affidavit holding the candidate who signs to supporting specific issues demanded by the voters. This is engaging in direct action upon the electorial process. The affidavit has to be written up before the primaries because the next step is to run at least one person who will sign the affidavit in the party you want to take control of thereby putting political pressure on all other candidates to sign to avoid losing votes. No matter who gets elected among the candidates to sign, the voters' issues will be supported or the voters will take the elected official to court for perjury. Again, that's engaging in direct action by the voters to hold politicians accountable. If the voters won't do this, it will never matter how many vote. Voting for individuals is meaningless without accountability.

[+] -4 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

well primaries are over. I haven't seen your excellent idea put to use.

When you say "voting for individuals is meaningless without accountability" Do you mean because voters don't have the attention span to utilize the whole reelection mechanism.? And if a pol breaks a promise I suppose it isn't realistic to expect constant large scale protests huh? That could create some accountability.

But ok. If that is disregarded. What are we to do? Your excellent idea is great for next election. But what about now.? Should the progressives who support OWS be demoralized, apathetic and do "nothing".? Isn't that how we got the right wing policies that created these problems.? Isn't that what the 1% plutocrats want.?

What are you suggesting?

[-] 2 points by rickMoss (435) 2 years ago

Their is not much you can do now because we let our problems build over decades. There won't be any quick relief or fix - just can kicking. Protest if it pleases you but at best that will only make things worse faster. We have to think, plan and be smarter. Voting in elections and protesting will get us nowhere, but if it pleases you, be my guest. Our challenges are huge. We don't live in simple times anymore. I'm not trying to pee on your parade but we have a lot of work ahead of us and unfortunately the people aren't ready to meet that challenge. That's mainly because they don't know squat and that's how we got here. They don't know what to do. OsiXs has a brilliant plan and strategy. The best thing you can do is learn and help the other poor slobs out there. Thank me later!

FIGHT THE CAUSE - NOT THE SYMPTOM OsiXs (Revolution 2.0 - The Smart Revolution)

[-] 2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

Well I think you might get more support if you stop denigrating the efforts of these brave people.

But you sound so much smarter than us, so I guess you will succeed before we do and I suppose we want the same thing. So if one of us win we all win.

Good luck.

And thanks (in advance)

[-] 2 points by rickMoss (435) 2 years ago

Thank You -

[-] 1 points by LeoYo (5854) 2 years ago

Voting for individuals is meaningless without accountability for the simple fact that unaccountable elected officials can always do as they please to the neglect of the public. The whole purpose of voting is for the public to get what it wants, not what it doesn't want. Waiting a minimum of two years to simply vote yet another unaccountable person into office to continue the agenda of big business is of no benefit to the voting public, especially since the voting public doesn't engage in constant large scale protests whenever a politician breakes a promise.

As for now, it's possible to have voting districts to come up with affidavits for current candidates to sign but it's certainly not in any way plausible. A lot of canvassing for signatures would have to take place and that takes both time and money as well as some body of individuals to actually organize it all. The PIRGs would be perfect for such activity but the will to do it in the very limited amount of time alloted just isn't feasible. The planning has to begin now to be ready in two years as it is practically too late to apply it to the current election.

[-] -2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

I agree. It's a great idea for next time.

But this time perhaps we can attempt the whole large scale protests when pols don't support progressive policies. Even if you don't vote we can still protest and agitate for progressive change. As we (OWS) are doing now no?

You couldn't support that kind of agitation?

[-] 1 points by LeoYo (5854) 2 years ago

You've got four months to try it. "Go for it."

If what OWS is doing now isn't attracting at least 33% of the electorate, it's not large scale no matter how impressive the gathering may look.

[-] -2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

So unless we get 40 million people to demonstrate it isn't worth it.?

That sounds like being set up to fail. We don't need to have that many to make difference. You don't support protests unless it's 33% of the electorate? really?

And you don't support voting for individuals without accountability (which doesn't include reelection or mass protests)

Do you support OWS?

[-] 1 points by rickMoss (435) 2 years ago

You can protest all you want, no one can stop you. Even if you got the whole country to protest it won't do any good. Most of the things you are demanding can't be granted by our present form of government. It isn't capable. If they could supply even a small bit of what you are after they would give it to you to make you go away and be quite. If They want to stay in power, why else wouldn't they keep the masses as happy as possible. This is the best that our form of government and economic system can do. They don't have a viable solution to solve these problems and neither do the protesters. So all you will accomplish is to make things far worse much faster. So by all means, protest all you want then everyone will come to the realization of how much trouble we're really in. Getting angry and protesting isn't a solution. Get smart. In a fight, the person that loses his cool usually loses the fight because he's not thinking. Instead, he allowing his rage and emotion to control his actions.

FIGHT THE CAUSE - NOT THE SYMPTOM

OsiXs (Revolution 2.0 - The Smart Revolution)

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

Ok. So we are stupid and we are making things worse. The tactics that worked for Ghandhi and MLK, will make things worse.

I get it you putting down the movement and all the people in it.

I get it you (and us) are putting down the powers that be.

Everybody has got it wrong but you. Ok.

What should we do? I ain't askin what we shouldn't do boss. I'm askin you for your OSIX strategy, tactic, plan,. Anything. One line.

Stop with the insults.

Peace

[-] 1 points by rickMoss (435) 2 years ago

We don't live in the times of MLK and Ghandhi. There problems where simple and minuscule compared to the challenges we face here and now. I'm not taking away from what these gentlemen accomplished by their tactics but it's no comparison to what we face. That's our real problem. People think in simple terms: stop corruption, give me a job, giving me a loan, whatever. It's much deeper than that. The problem is people don't have time to listen, learn or read. There is price for low attention span. It's called suffering. If you feel put down then so be it. Many people or suffering and dying while you still have the luxury of hurt feelings. Consider yourself lucky for now. That luxury will fade.

You ask what should you do? It's in the post:

Vote for direct democracy where the people are in charge not big business and the banks: http://www.osixs.org/Vote.aspx

Then learn what it really means:

U.S. Citizens Read “Common Sense 3.1” at ( http://revolution2.osixs.org )

Non U.S. Citizens Read “Common Sense 3.2” at ( http://SaveTheWorldNow.osixs.org )

Everything you need to know is there. Enlighten as many people as you can as I do. Most of us are lost. That is our problem. When enough people know and understand how to fight back we will begin to make real progress.

What insults, Just truth as I know it!

Peace

[-] 3 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

"low attention span"? more insults. I have been smart considerate people who have a deel profound understanding of out problems. They understand the history of the corruption, thay recognize the solutions will take years. They acknowledge the superiority of direct democracy, they work for it, while working to create reform in our existing system that might allow for the change required. Many people have short attention spans. I have found the people I march with and even those I discuss issues with here are not the short attention span people you refer to.

They also aren't the type to have others think for them. They are independent thinkers. So your links will just be informational, not to be taken as directions.

I think you might do better bringing people to your thinking on these issues if you didn't offend your audience with blanket statements of short attention spans, and dismissal of tactics, and the heroes we hold up.

Good luck

Peace, & Solidarity

[-] 1 points by rickMoss (435) 2 years ago

I commend you for your marching. At least you have the balls to stand up. I don’t agree 100% with marching all the time but I think of the marchers as our soldiers. And just like our military soldiers, I think our soldiers in the movement are sometimes misused, misled and wasted. But I still respect the soldiers no matter what. We’ve always had smart considerate people in this country. But that’s not enough. Because if it was, how did we allow our country to come to this. How did we allow our world to come to this? I merely speak the truth as I see it. You may not like it but neither do I, speaking of the truth. Most people act like cattle (“low attention span”). For many of us, we’re more concerned with buying an Ipad or Ipod while our planet is literally falling apart. Think about it 1 second. How is it that 1% can manipulate and control 99%. That means the 99% are terribly flawed (and I mean as a group not as individuals).

FIGHT THE CAUSE - NOT THE SYMPTOM OsiXs (Common Sense 3.1)

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

I don't disagree with your assessment of the 99%. They/we require much help. Education, support. If you and I disagree it is simply on tactics.

I embrace all non violent tactics. Your tactics on this website are not of course physically violent. But verbally violent without a doubt. So I encourage you to change your tactics.

Thats all. I think in fact you might bring more people to your site.

And let say also. You are ustified at being angry. But the approach should not include angry. It is better without angry.

Peace

[-] 0 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

So all you will accomplish is to make things far worse much faster

why?

[-] 1 points by rickMoss (435) 2 years ago

Things are going to get progressively worse. The protests will get bigger and the government will escalate their tactics to control us and dissent. They're already taking away our rights every chance they get. They are trying to criminalize our right to protest. Next they will criminalize our right to dissent. Then it's over. If you have Netflix, check out the movie "The End of America".

Enough upheaval could fracture our country and who knows what happens after that.

Look what just happened in Canada.

"Tuesday marked the 100th day of the growing student protests against austerity measures and tuition increases. In response to the spreading protests, the conservative Charest government passed a new "emergency" law last Friday - Bill 78."

Bill 78 mandates: •Fines of between $1,000 and $5,000 for any individual who prevents someone from entering an educational institution or who participate in an illegal demonstration.

•Penalties climb to between $7,000 and $35,000 for protest leaders and to between $25,000 and $125,000 for unions or student federations.

•All fines DOUBLE for repeat offenders

•Public demonstrations involving more than 50 people have to be flagged to authorities eight hours in advance, include itinerary, duration and time at which they are being held. The police may alter any of these elements and non-compliance would render the protest illegal.

•Offering encouragement for someone to protest at a school, either tacitly or otherwise, is subject to punishment. The Minister of Education has said that this would include things like 'tweeting', 'facebooking', and has she has implied that wearing the student protest insignia (a red flag-pin) could also be subject to punishment.

•No demonstration can be held within 50 meters of any school campus

Here is a link to the news article: http://focus.osixs.org/W/post/2012/05/30/Biggest-Act-of-Civil-Disobedience-in-Canadian-History.aspx

I'm sure you agree, this is worse - It didn't help.

FIGHT THE CAUSE - NOT THE SYMPTOM

OsiXs (The Nuclear Option)

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

many laws are being passed to curtail protest

but no law is being passed to address the issues the very protests are about

[-] 1 points by rickMoss (435) 2 years ago

Yep!

FIGHT THE CAUSE - NOT THE SYMPTOM

OsiXs (More Power and Technology to the People!)

[-] 0 points by LeoYo (5854) 2 years ago

The purpose of protest is to draw attention for affecting change. If your aim is political change but you don't draw a significant number of voters to a protest, you're not creating any effective incentive for politicians to take the protest seriously. Protests alone did nothing for the Tea Party other than get them outed as a bunch of racist loonies. It's only when they put forth candidates who took pledges to uphold certain issues that a difference was made. Democrats funded by big business are no different. All the protests in the world will never pressure them to uphold any issues if it doesn't threaten their ability to get votes. Without significant numbers of agitated voters, a protest is just another protest and it's business as usual. Like I said, you've got four months to try it. "Go for it."

I support direct action be it economic or political. Such action requires serious work and organization that goes well beyond the act of protesting. Protesting is only the first step by getting the public's attention. It must be accompanied by serious work for the issues of the protest to have a lasting effect.

[-] -1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

Wow. I guess I'm just not at your far superior level. My apologize.

Serious work that I guess is beyond me. Excuse me. I'm not worthy.

I suppose your serious work doesn't include working to enlarge your supporters because you've done nothing to convince me that I might agree with your plans, and everythng to show contempt and hostility towards me and my ideas.

Good luck. We might have the same goals. I'm not sure what it is you want (other than excluding voting, and protests) but if we do want the same goals, good luck.

[-] 1 points by LeoYo (5854) 2 years ago

I don't see why you claim I'm showing contempt and hostility towards you and your ideas. I've encouraged you to "Go for it" twice now. How in the world is that showing contempt and hostility towards you and your ideas???

As for enlarging supporters is concerned, I've in no way implied that I'm seeking any kind of support nor have I offered anything that would require any kind of support for me. All that I have offered is free for all to embrace or reject as they please.

[-] 0 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

You ain't offered anything except -we shouldn't vote, and -unless we get 40 million people at a protest it's not worth it.

You mentioned something about direct action but that requires a lot of work so you didn't elaborate. If you want support for anything your gonna have to actually verbalize something.

I guess you don't have any ideas. Except no voting, and no protesting!

Is that right.?

[-] 1 points by LeoYo (5854) 2 years ago

Already told you I'm not looking for any support on anything.

Already told you what is required to make voting meaningful.

Already told you that direct action involves a lot of canvassing for signatures and that it takes both time and money as well as some body of individuals to actually organize it all. Have you ever worked for a PIRG? Have you ever worked on a political campaign? Been canvassing, made phone calls, gone door to door to strangers' homes with viscious rottweilers in their front yards? Been there, done that, and it ain't no Sunday picnic. It requires the serious efforts of all involved.

The 40 million figure is your own, not mine. I mentioned 33% of the electorate of a voting district. Big difference.

Serious work requires doing something for the people that's ongoing while waiting for the next election campaign or protest. The Black Panthers had a free breakfast program for children so that they wouldn't have to go to school hungry. I've suggested the Cooperative Employment Service so that people can be put to work for themselves, not for the corporations. Any ongoing service you can provide to people in need is serious work that gets the public's support.

[-] 0 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

Good luck Leo. When you do want supporters I would be willing to listen.

[-] 0 points by kelliosie (-2) 2 years ago

What's your take for hawking for Obama, mate? http://pastebin.com/9bLFYdFZ

[-] 0 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

Killing/threatening to kill dogs is not the OWS way.

So no voting, but I can go for protests (not for you if it ain't 33%)

And you will be doing the direct action but your direct action however difficult is not so important that you would ask for supporters here at an OWS site.

Hows that?. Did I get that right.?

[-] 0 points by LeoYo (5854) 2 years ago

Letting any living being that threatens your personal safety know that you will defend your life at expense of its life is a personal thing, OWS or not.

Everyone here is free to vote or not to vote for whatever reasons they find acceptable. The same goes for protesting. People have options and I've provided ideas to increase those options. Freedom of choice.

[+] -5 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

33% is not necessary for a successful protest. To create that threshold just creates a reason not to protest.

I've canvassed yes, worked on campaigns yes. It is hard work and you have listed much examples of good reasons not to attempt direct action. You've also now stated that you are "not lookin for support for anything" so I guess the direct action is out the window.

So to recap. No voting (not meaningful)

No protesting (can't get enough people)

No direct action (too much work, afraid of dogs)

Got it.

Support OWS. Vote out pro Norquist, anti Buffet rule politicians.

[-] 0 points by LeoYo (5854) 2 years ago

You are free to cite examples of protests that successfully pressured a candidate to support an issue against their big business funders without 33% of the electorate involved.

So to recap.

You say, No voting (not meaningful), I say, Make voting meaningful.

You say, No protesting (can't get enough people), I say (for the third time), "Go for it."

You say, No direct action (too much work, afraid of dogs), I say, direct action begins now because two years is not a lot of time and so long as you let the dogs know that you are the human and that you will kill it if necessary, you don't have to be afraid of the dogs.

[Removed]

[-] 0 points by Endgame (535) 2 years ago

What is the difference between this and what the Anarchists that have hijacked this movement, want to achieve?

I will admit that this does peak my interests. But is this something different or the samething but with a different name?

[-] -1 points by rickMoss (435) 2 years ago

I think the movement was started by anarchists. Anarchy is natural. It’s born of frustration. They don’t know what else to do so they lash out the best way they can. R2(revolution 2.0) has nothing to do with anarchy or frustration. It is brilliant piece of work by a computer scientist. Go figure that. Revolution 2.0 is something totally different from anything I’ve ever seen or heard of. It is an actual plan and not just talk. Today as I speak, there is no other plan. Not from government, not from any think tank, nothing. The beauty of it is that it’s founded in science and technology not the rhetoric that politicians spew because let’s face it, they’re stupid and they don’t have any answers. The problem is, we’re stupid too because we keep falling for it. So the way I see is this. We can do nothing or we can use this incredible gift that came out of nowhere.

FIGHT THE CAUSE - NOT THE SYMPTOM

OsiXs (Revolution 2.0 - The Smart Revolution)

[-] 0 points by Endgame (535) 2 years ago

Yes. And the Anarchists hijacked and are attempting to Co-Op their own movement. Since they lied from the very beginning of what the movement was really about.

The movement initially advertised itself as a populous movement. Never once mentioning Anarchy and fighting to abolish government. Then all of a sudden after its gotten some support from its populist rhetoric the Anarchists try to change the movement into something it wasn't initially to apart of whatever agenda they wanted...

Not going to happen. Whether they created it or not they do not get to change everything and make people fight for what they want. Its deceitful as hell. If their goal was Anarchy the entire time you have to ask the question, why not just come out truthfully about what they really stood for? I think we both know the reason why.

This is the people's movement. Not a movement to achieve Anarchic goals. Honest people have invested to much time in this movement to have it hijacked by Anarchists and Black Bloc types.

[-] 0 points by markpaddles (143) from Denver, CO 2 years ago

Endgame wrote.. "And the Anarchists hijacked and are attempting to Co-Op their own movement."

How can a group hijack and co-opt a movement they started? Fucking hilarious, and by far one of the dumbest things I have seen written in awhile!

I see you are still on your little tirade and divisive agenda. Give it a rest already.

[-] 1 points by Endgame (535) 2 years ago

I guess you chose to not read the rest of what I wrote and just selectively picked out what you wanted.

Go back and read the whole thing.

What the Anarchists did to Occupy is the equivalent of if Martin Luther King preached about fairness and equality only to find out that he later on began pushing for a dictatorship style system under the Civil Rights movement. /hijacking his own movement for something completely different as initially advertised

[-] 0 points by markpaddles (143) from Denver, CO 2 years ago

Why would I continue to read the rest of your comment when your first sentence is the dumbest thing I have read in awhile? What follows probably isn't gonna be that enlightening.... yep, it wasn't very enlightening.

And I simply don't agree with anything you have to say about your take on the anarchists because of the extensive past conversations I have had with you in the past. I've got better things to do in my life then argue with a guy who clearly has an agenda to undermine an entire political philosophy that he doesn't understand, and who also is trying to create unnecessary division amongst this movement.

[-] 0 points by Endgame (535) 2 years ago

"Why would I continue to read the rest of your comment when your first sentence..."

Very well. I will give you the same courtesy.

Can't say I expected much else from someone like you given some of your past comments. When challenged your type just shuts down.

[-] 1 points by markpaddles (143) from Denver, CO 2 years ago

And I can't say I expected much else of a reponse from a dishonest person like yourself.

[-] -1 points by Endgame (535) 2 years ago

Dishonest? I have been nothing but honest. In fact the reason why people like you don't like what I have to say because it is brutally honest.

People that just sit back and act like there have not been any mistakes made in this movement and refuse to ask basic questions about what the goals are, are the ones that are in denial and being dishonest to the movement itself.

And speaking of dishonest, the irony here is that the most dishonest ones from the very beginning have been the Anarchists(in regards to the Occupy movement). They didn't have the balls to come out and clearly state what they were about so they hide behind a populous message. That is the epitome of dishonesty and cowardice.

If this movement goes back to what it initially stood for then there is no limit to what it can achieve. But as of now the Anarchists are running this movement into the ground.

[-] 1 points by markpaddles (143) from Denver, CO 2 years ago

Blah, blah blah... I've heard all of this dishonesty from you before.... you are a divisive concern troll. Go away.

[-] 0 points by Endgame (535) 2 years ago

lol spoken like your typical extremist kook that has no way to back up what they stand for.

People like you are the reason this movement is losing so much support.

[-] 0 points by WageSlave (117) 2 years ago

Direct democracy is a fun idea, but without an educated populous it can also be dangerous. Hopefully some day we can rely on a more science based system devoid (as much as possible) of subjective, philosophical decision making.

[-] 2 points by rickMoss (435) 2 years ago

I guess you didn't read common sense 3.1. So you have a lot of holes you've missed out on. There will be 2 new branches of government added. One is a technology branch. The branch will help guide the people by giving them the best options our technology can provide. They don't have to be scientist. They only need to be able to pick a, b or c or what ever.

FIGHT THE CAUSE - NOT THE SYMPTOM OsiXs (Revolution 2.0 - The Smart Revolution)

[-] 1 points by SparkyJP (1646) from Westminster, MD 2 years ago

I can't imagine what would be more dangerous than what we have now. It's a good thing we have such super smart people in congress to show us how it's done. They've done such a good job. NOT

[-] 0 points by Underdog (2971) from Clermont, FL 2 years ago

I have commented on DD in other posts before. Imho, DD is a wonderful vision that sounds great on paper, but I believe it would fail miserably in actual practice.

And here's why.

Consider what is required for DD to successfully operate. It requires a very educated and knowledgeable general population. I'm not talking about knowledge in the conventional sense of knowing that 2+2=4. I'm talking about the level of knowledge required to keep up with very complex legislation as it makes its way through various stages from conception to law. This requires being aware of those who draft the bill (and their motives for doing so). Knowing who will benefit and who will not from such legislation. Knowing who will work on the bill if it makes it to committee to be drafted into final draft to be voted on. Knowing the proponents and opponents and their influence in how that final draft comes out. Knowling who the lobbys are pro and con and who is backing them. Knowing if the bill has a state, national, or international impact. Understanding the economic impact of the bill (both national and international). Understanding any possible impact to minorities within the general population. Attempting to anticipate any possible unintended consequences if the bill becomes law...Etc, Etc, Etc.

Now really, consider the state of our population today. People have hardly any time at all to understand politics and issues in any depth whatsoever. They basically vote based on what the tube provides them (this is why Citizens United was such a dissapointment because the wealthy can buy elections by pouring millions behind a candidate and flooding the airwaves with ads).  Let's face it. People come home exhausted from work. They have to deal with their kids (if they have any), run errands, do chores, etc. Their lives are so completely busy that most of the time they just plop down in front of the tube and try to heal their brain damage from the day's hectic madness. So, the obvious question to be asked is........

How in the world are they going to have the time, energy, and inclination to become as knowledgeable as they need to be under DD??? 

The answer to the rhetorical question, of course, is that they won't and, furthermore, they can't. There may be a SMALL portion of the population that can keep up to the level required to make correct decisions in DD, but then you don't really have DD... you have a highly educated small minority making the decisions, which is exactly what you have now already in State and Federal legislatures.

Government is very complex. Drafting and passing legislation is very complex. Even the people we have now who are involved with it 24/7 can't keep up with the complexity of it. So how can the general population be expected to do it?

I am not trying to be a pessimist but a realist about this. I also feel our current system is hopelessly broken and controlled by the power-elite. But as we attempt to replace it we must be very careful not to make things worse. I know people will say that it probably can't be any worse than it already is., but then a little study of history will show that it certainly can be worse...much worse. My own personal view is that a parlimentary form of government coupled to a social democratic form of society might be better than what we have now, but everyone has a different opinion about how reform should look (even pro DD folks).

[-] 1 points by rickMoss (435) 2 years ago

Another person that doesn't like to read. You didn't read Common Sense 3.1 - So you have a lot of holes you've missed out on. There will be 2 new branches of government added. One is a technology branch. The technology branch will help guide the people by giving them the best options our technology can provide. They don't have to be scientist or legislators. They only need to be able to pick a, b or c or whatever. The people only vote on things they feel are important (like wars, finances, healthcare - things of that nature). They leave the other crap they don’t want to be bothered with to the politicians. They politicians are administrators and not our so called leaders anymore.

You really missed a lot. DD is far more than a Republic. DD doesn't have any lobbys. All the money is removed from government. You can no longer buy government. That's a limitation of a republic. Because will have more control over there own lives they won't have to work as much because their getting ripped off by the banks, big business, wall street and their government. Oh and did I mention no taxes or paying interest on loans. That's right. You have a lot to learn. That's why we're in this mess because the people have no idea how their future is being stolen from them but they know something is wrong.

FIGHT THE CAUSE - NOT THE SYMPTOM OsiXs (Revolution 2.0 - The Smart Revolution)

[-] 0 points by Underdog (2971) from Clermont, FL 2 years ago

Yes, I have read the Common Sense info before months ago, so I did not read it this time (yours is not the first post about it). I said back then and merely asserted again with yours that we have no indication whatsoever that getting millions of people involved as you have indicated would be successful, for the reasons I already specified. I am not against DD in theory. Perhaps it could be rolled out on a very gradual trial basis starting with county government in one or two test states, then very gradually expanded if it meets with success. But this would have to be done very slowly to ensure that decisions being made are good ones. Remember that the long-term consequences of legislation are frequently unknown until years after passage. In the end, despite the technology element contained in Common Sense, I still feel DD will break down at some point as you begin to trust that millions of essentially unknowledable people are capable of successfully participating in a very, very complex decision making process to which they are essentially ignorant.

[-] 0 points by rickMoss (435) 2 years ago

I understand your concern but really, what's complicated about picking A, B, C or whatever. And your waiting for indications. What indications, total collapse? We have a government that is totally delinquent and none functional. We are past crunch time. Mainly because we've done nothing to fix our problems. Waiting for indicators that have no way of happening sounds like an excuse to continue doing nothing. That's how we got here. Sitting around waiting for miracles.

Let me ask you this. Things in our country and on this planet are going to get much worse. What indicator are you waiting for before you decide to do something about it.

FIGHT THE CAUSE - NOT THE SYMPTOM

OsiXs (The Nuclear Option)

[-] 2 points by Underdog (2971) from Clermont, FL 2 years ago

You, along with rickMoss, are missing my point. Just because something can be done doesn't mean that it should be done. I agree that we have to do something because our government is completely broken. We simply disagree on how to fix it. I am in favor of adopting the Scandinavian model and you want DD. The first is tested, proven, and working. The latter is mostly theoretical. Doesn't mean it isn't valid, just unproven on a massive scale like you are proposing.

Let me illustrate my concerns on a more practical level. In my own immediate family we have an anesthesiologist in training (2nd year residency), a handyman/mechanic, a bartender, a statistician, an IT pro, and an options trader. All of these require varying degrees of training and education. All of them clearly show a wide diversity when it comes to occupational choices and temperament. And that is just one family. There is a tremendous amount of educational, ethnic, and temperamental diversity in this country. In other words, you are talking about a COMPLEX system.

My own experience in the workplace has taught me that you usually run into two crowds of people. The first are the "let's do it now and whatever doesn't work we can fix as we go along" crowd. The second is the "yes let's do it, but let's employ wisdom and caution before we plunge in and create a mess because we didn't exercise enough up-front analysis" crowd. I can't tell you the number of times that the latter were always cleaning up the former's messes. When I was young I think I was more in the first camp. As I got older I began to tire of cleaning up messes and moved over to the second camp. So yes, I have a bias when it comes to changing very complex systems because I have decades of life experience that has taught me that failure to anticipate outcomes results in mess...and the more complex the system the more potential for very complicated messes.

And I am tired of cleaning up other people's messes.

[-] 2 points by Underdog (2971) from Clermont, FL 2 years ago

This should be a discussion and not an argument. You and I are in total agreement that our government is totally broken. We disagree about how to fix it. I favor adopting the Scandinavian model and you want DD. The former is tested, proven, and working. The latter is not. Doesn't mean it isn't valid, just theoretical at this point.

And we agree that things are so bad that it is like a concrete block being held up by toothpicks. So clearly something must be done. But I have had a lot of contact with a wide variety of people in my life. I have known people from all sorts of educational and occupational backgrounds. In my immediate family we have an anesthesiologist in training (2nd year residency), a handyman/mechanic, a statistician, a bartender, IT pro, and options trader. These all require varying degrees of education. My point is that the diversity of education, occupation, even ethnic diversity is such that your "simple" A,B, C approach would have to be comprehendible by even those who are barely literate. Many people go to the polls today and vote not because they are knowledgeable, but because their friends tell them how to vote (MANY people vote this way). The same thing applies to referendum voting. Many people never even know some referendum is on the ballot at all until they walk into the polls and see it for the first time on the voting sheet. Then they make a snap-judgement on-the-spot decision for or against the referendum. Again, for those who know about the referendum, they vote based on what their friends tell them (this is the herd instinct at work). So given the dismal state of the voting public, and the pathetic turnout at the polls in most instances, I think DD has its work cut out for it to transform the current voting public into knowledgable citizens that can make responsible and intelligent voting decisions on an even more frequent basis than they do today.

[-] 1 points by rickMoss (435) 2 years ago

Well lets see your proven Scandinavian model. The last time I checked, the whole world is on fire (including the Scandinavian countries) and no government is situated in such a way that it could possibly deal with today's or tomorrow's challenges. And why is that, because they're all based on growth, Predatory Capitalism. Even the communists had to join the game or get left out. I showed you the best plan I've ever seen, now let me see yours.

FIGHT THE CAUSE - NOT THE SYMPTOM

OsiXs (Revolution 2.0)

[-] 2 points by Underdog (2971) from Clermont, FL 2 years ago

Compare any country you like with the USA using the CIA guide to country comparisons tool. The below link is for Sweden.

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/sw.html

[-] 1 points by rickMoss (435) 2 years ago

No doubt, the U.S. is in bad shape. But I don't see how trying to mimic Sweden or Germany for that matter will help the U.S. The real underlying problem is jobs. Germany and Sweden don't have a remedy for that nor do they have a government to deal with it. That's why I asked you for some kind of plan. When the global economy goes down they go with it. You can't fix technological unemployment by moving the chairs around on the deck of the Titanic. You will find patches in certain places that are doing well. That's to be expected. We have plenty of good patches in the United States. But when the economy goes south, guess what? Those patches go with it. We need a paradigm shift. Not just a variation in the same forms of government that don't address our short or long term needs.

FIGHT THE CAUSE - NOT THE SYMPTOM OsiXs (Revolution 2.0 - The Smart Revolution!)

[-] 2 points by Underdog (2971) from Clermont, FL 2 years ago

Until we can obtain something else, we have to work with what we've got. I can appreciate your vision for a new approach to political/social alteration of a pretty broken system. I am trying to propose a different economic system on another post here

http://occupywallst.org/forum/heres-a-ideawill-it-work/

There is huge opposition and reluctance to mess with the status quo. Things that are too radical are usually rejected by the majority for years, or even decades, or even forever. It takes a very long time and LOTS of education for a radical paradigm-shifting idea to start to take hold in the collective minds of the public. Look how long people have been arguing over legalizing pot. You might make better progress with your idea if you could figure out a good way to educate people and promote it in the mass media. You won't get much accomplished here on this tiny forum.

[-] 1 points by rickMoss (435) 2 years ago

I feel what you're saying. That's part of the problem. It's too hard, too big, too much etc. That's exactly how we got here.We don't want to pay the price. And that's okay because we're paying for it the hard way. I don't worry about people not excepting what I promote, especially when I know it's better than anything else out there. The people are ready now. Because they see the writing on the wall. And believe me, you ain't seen nothing yet. I promise you. The people will be begging for ideas like osixs or they will simply parish. We either change or it's over. Dying is one hell of motivator.

FIGHT THE CAUSE - NOT THE SYMPTOM

OsiXs (More Power and Technology to the People!)

[-] 0 points by LeoYo (5854) 2 years ago

Direct Democracy that retains representatives requires nothing more than what has been required of Switzerland since 1848 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voting_in_Switzerland or what would be required without representatives for a Democratic Congress http://occupywallst.org/forum/amendment-for-a-democratic-congress/ .

[-] 1 points by Underdog (2971) from Clermont, FL 2 years ago

Please compare this

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/sz.html

with this

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/us.html

Once you have completely digested the difference between Switzerland and the USA, please get back with me as to how DD would/could be effectively implemented in our society.

[-] 0 points by LeoYo (5854) 2 years ago

Nothing prevents the system in Switzerland from being adopted in the United States, however, rather than compare the United States with Switzerland, look at any of the 24 ballot initiative states within the United States and let me know what prevents any of these systems from being implemented at the national level.

Also please take a look at the Democratic Congress http://occupywallst.org/forum/amendment-for-a-democratic-congress/ which, although bearing certain similarites with the system in Switzerland, is nevertheless a full direct democracy, and let me know what about it wouldn't be feasible if voters ever decided to approve it.

[-] 0 points by SparkyJP (1646) from Westminster, MD 2 years ago

If you took the time to look at the site, you would know that their plan is to give people veto power, not legislative power. You still have reps, prez, judges, etc.; but the Peoples' Branch becomes the Executive Branch and conducts oversight over ALL other branches. An example could be NDAA. If congress adopts an oppressive law; the majority would have the ability to veto that law. Essentially it is a hybrid of what we have now, and a DD.

[-] 0 points by Underdog (2971) from Clermont, FL 2 years ago

Please see my response above.

[-] 0 points by friendlyopposition (574) 2 years ago

If you achieve direct democracy, you have to be prepared to be disappointed in what "the people" actually want. California Prop 8 and NC Amendment 1 (both gay marriage isses) both failed as a result of direct democracy.

[-] 2 points by rickMoss (435) 2 years ago

Good point. I'm glad you brought it up. R2 (revolution 2.0) is more than direct democracy. You have to change the structures and institutions of our old government to get there. The judicial system is just as flawed and broken as the rest of our government. Gay marriage would automatically be legal and not subject to a vote. You can't vote to take rights from people. Otherwise what good is a constitution. Most of our constitution and declaration of independence where just talk while millions of people were slaves and denied basic rights. Not much has changed.

No I'm not disappointed. You have to fix the whole system or it won't work. The only way to do that is with the "Nuclear Option" - so Vote!

FIGHT THE CAUSE - NOT THE SYMPTOM

OsiXs (Government 2.0)

[-] 0 points by LeoYo (5854) 2 years ago

"Liberty means responsibility. That is why most men dread it."

-George Bernard Shaw

If you're not willing to do the work, you're not willing to be free. You can't vote on democracy until you have the ability to vote on initiatives on a national level http://occupywallst.org/forum/free-democracy-amendment/ and you can't vote on initiatives on a national level until you hold both state and federal candidates accountable to supporting it with affidavits http://occupywallst.org/forum/political-organization-rather-than-political-party/ backed by at least 33% of the voters who will refuse to vote for anyone who doesn't sign. Only then will you finally have what Switzerland has had since 1848 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voting_in_Switzerland and be able to vote on having the kind of democracy http://occupywallst.org/forum/amendment-for-a-democratic-congress/ that the Founders never wanted Americans to have http://occupywallst.org/forum/none-are-more-hopelessly-enslaved-than-those-who-f/ .

The plan at http://revolution2.osixs.org doesn't work as it requires a ballot initiative to take place in all of the states even though 26 of those states don't allow ballot initiatives. Waiting for interest to grow to critical mass on a website in order to begin grass roots support is also unrealistic unless one is planning to wait forever. To have something done now, one has to go out and get it done now by canvassing to get the signatures needed either for an initiative or for an affidavit to hold candidates to. It takes work, money, and organizing. Nothing worthwhile will ever require less.

[-] 2 points by rickMoss (435) 2 years ago

With all due respect you are wrong, wrong and more wrong. You are not a slave. The people own and created the government. We don't need permission or a ballot imitative to rebuild our country and government. The vote is for the people by the people and of the people. It has nothing to do with the government. It has to do with us. Your thinking is the same kind of thinking that keeps people trapped and enslaved. That’s what I like about OsiXs. They woke me up. They freed me. Now I’m about to free you. The foundering fathers left Americans with a "nuclear option". You can't work from within a flawed, corrupt government to fix a flawed, corrupt government. That's nonsense. The founders learned that from the flawed, corrupt monarchy that we rebelled against. That's why the founders put (the nuclear option) in the declaration of independence:

“that whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness…”

There is nothing in there about a ballad initiative. It would defeat the purpose. That’s because the people are supreme.

The people are the supreme power of the land. We don’t have to ask permission (Ballot initiative) to remove or change the form of government. We are not subjects of the government. Our government is subject to us. That is laughable - excuse Mr. Government but can we have a vote to remove your power and influence over us. That is laughable. Of course the government will just laugh and slap you down like the king did to the 13 colonies before we rebelled and took our freedom. That’s what the original TEA PARTY was all about. Tyranny! The founders were not perfect and they were not fools. They left us with a “Nuclear Options”. When enough American learn that it exists and they learn how to use it, they will. Because they don’t have any other choice but to go in circles as you would suggest.

Do you think people would be using stupid tactics like protesting if the really understood the real power and rights.

Now repeat after me – I am not a slave, I am not a slave, I am not a slave, I am not a slave.

[-] 0 points by LeoYo (5854) 2 years ago

The people do not own the government nor did they create it. The colonial legislatures had declared independence in the midst of a war that had already begun on April 19, 1775, not the People, and the State legislatures had ratified the Constitution, not the People.

The Declaration of Independence is a declaration, not a piece of legislation. It has no legal bearing pertaining to the rights of the American people in relation to their government whatsoever. The Constitution and Treaties are the supreme law of the land.

If your petition and voting process excludes the established channels, you simply won't be allowed to set up elections unless you're planning for an armed revolt to counter the government forces that will prevent any independent attempt to organize elections. If you plan on being non-violent while seeking to politically operate outside of the established channels, forget it. In either case, you're talking sedition.

[-] 2 points by rickMoss (435) 2 years ago

You are stuck in the Matrix. Wake up, It's just a dream world.You are so far a skew that I can't help you. Good Luck!

FIGHT THE CAUSE - NOT THE SYMPTOM

OsiXs (Revolution 2.0 - The Smart Revolution)

[-] 2 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

rewrite the clause - not the sentence

[-] 1 points by LeoYo (5854) 2 years ago

I made specific statements that can be refuted if they're not true. I stated

"The colonial legislatures had declared independence in the midst of a war that had already begun on April 19, 1775, not the People"

Feel free to refute it with any verifiable facts.

I stated

"the State legislatures had ratified the Constitution, not the People."

Feel free to refute it with any verifiable facts.

I stated

"The Declaration of Independence is a declaration, not a piece of legislation. It has no legal bearing pertaining to the rights of the American people in relation to their government whatsoever."

Feel free to refute it with any verifiable facts.

I stated

"The Constitution and Treaties are the supreme law of the land."

Feel free to refute it with any verifiable facts.

I stated

"If your petition and voting process excludes the established channels, you simply won't be allowed to set up elections"

Feel free to refute it with any verifiable facts.

I stated

"the government forces ... will prevent any independent attempt to organize elections."

Feel free to refute it with any verifiable facts.

[-] 1 points by rickMoss (435) 2 years ago

I don't mean to blow you off. But you have too much too learn and I have too much important news to carry to others and not enough time. If you believe in your heart this is right then you don't need me to persuade you otherwise.Our country and the world is falling apart and you want to argue semantics and worse. Good Luck! OsiXs has the best ideas and strategy I've ever laid eyes on. People are looking for real answers and way out - not more debates.

FIGHT THE CAUSE - NOT THE SYMPTOM

OsiXs (More Power and Technology to the People!)

[-] 1 points by LeoYo (5854) 2 years ago

On the contrary. This is clearly not about semantics.

Either the things I've said are true or false. Either the things you've claimed are true or false. One cannot successfully act upon falsehoods. The things I've said are simple and blatent so if they're false, they're easy to factually refute. There's only six of them. Either you can support what you've been claiming to an open forum or you can't. Supporting what you claim educates everyone beyond any reliance upon a mere belief. Failing to support it either indicates that you don't have the knowledge to support your claims or worse, that what you claim is a conscious deception. For the time being, I choose to give you the benefit of the doubt.

[-] 1 points by rickMoss (435) 2 years ago

Your problem is that you are asking the wrong questions that have no relevance to my topic. If you feal your ideas or superior then by all means stick with it, you'll find someone to listen to, but not me. Your ideas don't compare to the Ideas, strategy and plan set forth by osixs. You don't have an idea, or a plan or a strategy. You want to waste my time by arguing tangents that leads to nowhere. I'm just saying, I don't have time to go to nowhere with you are anyone else.

FIGHT THE CAUSE - NOT THE SYMPTOM

OsiXs (Democracy 2.0)

[-] 1 points by LeoYo (5854) 2 years ago

As can be plainly seen in this thread contrary to the falsity of your claims, I haven't asked any questions and I've already provided the links to my ideas and strategies. I've simply pointed out facts that you've dismissed yet have avoided to address. I'll make it simple for you.

FACT:

Trying to use the Declaration of Independence, a document of political separation written in the midst of war, as the legal basis for taking legal action in replacing the United States government is legally unsustainable. As the whole so-called "Nuclear Option" rests upon this invalid application of the Declaration of Independence, it's really the only point that needs to be legally addressed if true. Simply believing that it's true while encouraging others to do so, simply won't do. Legality is not an issue of belief.

FACT:

Trying to organize non-government voting for the purpose of replacing the United States government is an act of sedition that will land the organizers in prison.

FACT:

Sending 50 delegates to Congress to serve them their walking papers would at best get a good laugh before getting the delegates dismissed and escorted out.

FACT:

If a majority in each state were to get behind a direct democracy movement, there would be nothing to stop them from simply electing their own representatives to office, automatically replacing the previous government to bring about the desired direct democracy.

Now you can continue avoiding these facts for whatever excuses you think others will believe but at this point it's pretty much clear what you're really about and most folks here just aren't looking for a new faith to blindly believe in.

[-] -2 points by EagleEye (31) 2 years ago

Some people can't be woken up because they are riding out the storm & figure they will be dead because they are old so why bother with it. The youth must have the burden of liberty because the old are too complacent, lazy, stupid, delusion, & arrogant. The old hate the young.

[-] 2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

You are so far off it ain't funny.

[-] 1 points by EagleEye (31) 2 years ago

Then you do not know any of the humans that I know. Thanks for your intelligent well articulated response. Sarcasm off.

What do you think the senior center's are filled with? Do you think they are filled with people that are ready to change the world?

I suggest you take your head out of the sand and listens to other people's observation before responding with snotty cliche comments. There are other valid perspective's besides your own.

[-] 3 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

I cannot agree that old people are "lazy, stupid, delusional, arrogant,and that they hate the young" I am 49. I don't feel that way. I know many older people who I have been protesting with for 30 years. At every OWS protest I go to (dozens) there are elderly people who are putting themselves on the front lines. You and I disagree.

My opinion is based on my personal experience.and films I've seen as well of protests. You don't see elderly at protests? Not on the films?

Listen we face the most powerful evil force in the history of the planet. We need EVERYONE! It is unproductive to exclude a whole age group!

Seems there is some age discrimination goin on. Please rethink your position. And you don't have to attack any group with such hostile insults. And I wasn't tryin to be snotty, just don't agree.

Better we focus our energy at bringing people together. How about some outreach to the elderly.?

Peace and Love

[-] 1 points by EagleEye (31) 2 years ago

Perhaps, you are taking personal offense? I do not mean all old people. All I mean is I have observed this attitude in many of the old people in my community. They have even stated it at the last board meeting I attended. Basically, it was stated that since we won't be here in the next decade will push off the problems as long as possible, so they personally won't have to pay for improved infrastructure & maintenance.

Sorry for misunderstanding you, but please realize there is this attitude in some old people and they are in our communities & our government. From your posts that I've read you seem to have a big heart & smart mind. I think some of the problems we face today are a class war & a generational war. Some older people are timeless & will always be young at heart, so my generalizations do not apply to them.

Peace & Love.

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

Definately a class war. maybe a generational war for some. (I don't doubt you have encountered elderly against OWS, but I think it is based on issues) We would do best not to engage the elderly as enemies. Best to identify the enemy based on the issues.

I support progressive solutions to all the right wing policies that have created our problems. I think in fact you and I agree. We need all the progressives we can get.

Peace

[-] 1 points by brosefstalin (139) from Wantagh, NY 2 years ago

I agree that an all-out attack on the elderly is a pretty vitriolic way to go about passing on a message. However, there are certain was in which "generational warfare" has been committed, and I think it's a philosophical idea worth pursuing and understanding.

I'm 24, and graduated college in 2010. I was recently reading an article on the HuffingtonPost where I've learned they're not only now calling my generation "The Lost Generation," but that the years '09 and '10 are considered to have been the worst years to graduate.

Moments ago I also read an article on HuffPo suggesting that people aged 55 and older absorbed 58% of new jobs created last month, leaving my age group struggling to scrape our lives together.

Why this is particularly frustrating is that my generation is being battered because of failed policies that the previous generation passed, and we're not really being given a chance to get up on our feet and grow. We can't get married, have children, pursue further higher education.

[-] 2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

It is easy to turn on each other. In fact the 1% likes it when we misdirect our anger at other 99%'rs. I think the people responsible for the crashing the world economy and ruining the "lost generations" opportunity are the people who proudly trumpet support for the right wing policies that benefit the 1%. That group may be disproportionately older, but not all old people!

There are still old progressives that we want to include in the movement against the plutocrats. I think if we focus on implementing the progressive solutions required to undo the right wing 1% policies and building an inclusive active movement to challenge those mean old white republicans.

just kiddin. You know what I mean. ;)

Peace

[-] 0 points by brosefstalin (139) from Wantagh, NY 2 years ago

I'm not saying we start a literal or even figurative war against the older generations. I'm saying it's completely myopic to ignore the fact that the younger generations are being destroyed by policies that were constructed by the boomers, et al, before the Millennial generation was even of voting age.

Older folks continue to get more jobs. Younger people don't even get a chance. This could be completely destruction for our future if we create a generation of kids who couldn't afford higher education, or couldn't afford to get married and have children, or even to move out of their parents house.

I know what you mean, but I think you're just being defensive. The older generations are refusing to take responsibility for their failed policies that are stunting the economic and spiritual maturation of the youngsters.

And the problem isn't just "mean old white republicans." Democrats are just as dangerous and just as much at fault.

[-] 2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

They parties are vastly different on this issue. I'm not feeling defensive. I didn't do anything to further these problems.

I support banks forgive student loan/cr card/and some mtg debt! I support more jobs insourced. Punish corps that outsouce. That will help young people. Cut taxes dramatically for young workers. Not only am I in support of these things. Many older people (progressives) I know support them

The dems failure is the few who always cave in to vote for conservative laws that benefit the 1% plutocrats. dems can be dragged back to their progressive principles and made to serve the 99%.

Elect progressives, Vote out conservatives.

Peace

[-] 1 points by brosefstalin (139) from Wantagh, NY 2 years ago

Dems don't have progressive roots. Andrew Jackson was far from being a progressive. He was a 1%, just like the great majority of our founding fathers.

The parties just aren't vastly different on issues. I was arguing this in another thread, and don't feel like doing it anymore. Just read some Howard Zinn and Noam Chomsky. They'll set the record straight.

[-] 2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

I know them well.

I know the dems can be dragged away from the right! They must be made to serve the 99%.It is our only hope. I'm not against the whole total revolution, recreate the govt from the bottom up, horizontal representation, Direct Democracy. As it progresses I will be there.

I will not give up my right to vote. I will not encourage progressives to stay home! The parties ARE vastly different. Like Chomsky said "If he was in a swing state he would vote for Obama"

Don't be angry. we can't all agree. If you have a plan I could probably sign on.

Andrew Jackson was a man of the people the political elites hated him, the US bank hated him most. But y'know what? that was 180 years ago. the dems were a different party. Do you realize that?

The dems of FDR's New Deal, Soc. Sec. Unemploy, Kennedys civil rights, Johnsons great society, medicare, medicaid, and Obamas healthcare reform. These are the progressive solutions we must and can build on.

Peace out.

[-] 2 points by brosefstalin (139) from Wantagh, NY 2 years ago

I'll quote Zinn directly from his opus:

"Whether Democrats or Republicans won, national policy would not change in any important way."

Think about how Obama continues fighting in the Middle East. Think of how JFK sent national troops to break civil rights protests. Think of how FDR broke up union protests with soldiers. Think of the internment of Japanese-Americans. Theodore Roosevelt, a "Progressive," was an enemy of the Socialists, and made one of his targets Eugene V. Debs.

Another quote from Zinn:

"When the New Deal was over, capitalism remained intact. The rich still controlled the nation's wealth, as well as its laws, courts, police, newspapers, churches, colleges. Enough help had been given to enough people to make Roosevelt a hero to millions, but the same system that had brought depression and crisis--the system of waste, of inequality, of concern for profit over human need--remained."

This is ZINN saying this, not some Republican. Our heroes should be the Socialists, if anybody. NOT the Democrats, who are, though better than the Republicans, still bankrolled by the corporations.

Chomsky supports Jill Stein. He said he'd only vote for Obama because Mitt Romney is a destructive alternative. He is completely critical of Obama. Did you miss that part?

[-] 2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

Jill stein is great. Of course she is running against Obama so don't you think she has an interest in criticizing him.

Whatever. you clearly have much criticism for the dems. I get it. I cannot tell you they didn't do what you are accusing them of. I am saying until we do have a viable 3rd party I must attempt to take a party (1st choice dems) back for the people.

I cannot agree that the dems have no progressive roots. I suppose I could point out that Bernie Sanders votes with dem policies, Never repubs. Is that meaningful for you?

But I won't argue the past. I will say that the future can be different. We have to work towards getting the plutocrats money out of politics. That is the 1st priority.

Can we agree on that?

peace

[-] 2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

I don't look at dems and say "they're a little better than repubs" I know they are vastly better. I realize they have moved right and betrayed their progressive roots. I say we are patyly to blame! The people. YOU and me. all progressives who became demoralized and apathetic after reagan came to power.

I don't expect any politician to magically do anything for me. If we don't actively pressure all pols they will do what the plutocrats want.

Period. If we retreat, because we are apathetic, or demoralized or we are standing by some conviction that says "every pol in this party has not done what I want" then we are playing into the plutocrats hands.

We can't deliver more power to the plutocrats best friends (repubs). We gotta take the plutocrats good friends (Dems) away from them.

I'm not against 3rd party. I have voted for them. I have that luxury in a deep blue state. But we need more progressives in power. Fewer conservatives.

We need that while we work to redo everything to make it safe for the 3rd parties that I guess would be better (but I don't know why)

You don't have to list all the dem failures (of voting for conservative policies) I'm well aware. They are still one of the only 2 viable parties. We must co opt them The people CAN do it.

Have confidence, have faith.

Peace.

[-] 1 points by brosefstalin (139) from Wantagh, NY 2 years ago

The problem is that the Democrats never had progressive roots. That's why I brought up the example of Andrew Jackson, who was basically the founder of the Democratic Party (though, as you said, it was a different institution that has changed over time). But it was then and is now a plutocratic party. FDR's New Deal wasn't some progressive's assault on the conservative machine--it WAS the conservative response to their failing economic system on the brink of revolution. If it weren't for the New Deal, we'd have had a revolution back then and socialists would have been elected en masse. That's what the plutocrats were fighting against.

It wasn't some program of benevolent congeniality, but a way to keep sedate the slaves who were beginning to wake up to the corporate rule of things. JFK didn't pass civil rights legislation because he wanted to exactly, but because the civil rights movement had gained such momentum that it threatened the status quo.

Notice how Obama was essentially mum on the Scott Walker union busting issue. Notice how Obama hasn't made any significant statement concerning the Con Edison workers. Notice how he isn't pushing for minimum wage reform (and certainly not anything about the development of a liveable wage). It's not part of Obama's prerogative. He is still funded by the corporations.

Democrats simply know their base and know how to take advantage of them. JFK was a warhawk. He broke up civil rights protests and displaced many Native Americans from their ancestral land they had legal right to. He was not an advocate for the dispossessed, but knew how to play to his audience so we would overlook these things.

Sure, there are exceptions. But we should be trying to get more people like Bernie Sanders into Congress--TRUE independents. The more we vote for Dems, the further we fall into this cynical game of good cop, bad cop. At the end of the game, they both work for the same plutocrats.

I'm not saying DON'T vote for Dems, but recognize that we need to get rid of them too and they have just as much blame in this game as Republicans. I haven't given up my Massachusetts resident status because I'm waiting to vote for Elizabeth Warren. But if Jill Stein were running for Senate rather than president, I'd vote for her instead.

"As we found on issue after issue--the war, reappointing George Bush's secretary of defense, sticking to George Bush's timeline on Iraq, expanding the war, expanding the drone wars all over the place. And how about bringing Wall Street in, the guys who created the problem, among his first appointments. It was pretty clear right then that this was going to be business as usual on steroids. We're certainly not more secure, more equitable, more healthy or safer internationally, with what Obama has brought"

-- Jill Stein

[-] 2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

I didn't miss anything. I'm well aware of who Chomsky is voting for, And why he would vote for Obama. I understand all about how Teddy didn't do enough, FDR, JFK, non of them did enough. Even though I applaud the little bits they did do. Obviously the capitalists stayed in power. Obviously!

I wish we could change the reality that this is a capitalist country (not true capitalism I knw) I did not expect Obama to hit a switch and magically turn us into a socialist country. He didn't promise that Occupy is only 9 mo old. I didn't expect him to do much because the repubs have stopped everything. The plutocrats are too entrenched.

I don't expect dems to eliminate capitalism and impose socialism. That is not realistic. I want to move this country forward by implementing progressive solutions to the conservative policies that have screwed everything up.

Dems still bankrolled. It is more likely we can get money out of politics than it is to overthrow the capitalist system. I will work on both but you gotta understand what is possible.

So what are you suggesting regarding voting? Do you have some idea or plan to replace capitalism with socialism? what can I do. I wanna help.?

But tell me what you are suggesting regarding voting please.

Peace, Love , and understanding. (whasso funny 'bout)

[-] -1 points by brosefstalin (139) from Wantagh, NY 2 years ago

I'm not saying overthrowing capitalism, though I think that would be a largely beneficial outcome for humanity.

All I'm saying is that the Democrats aren't as progressive as they'd like to think they are. There are alternatives. Jill Stein is one of them. Why don't we all start backing a different political party, a MORE progressive political party than the democrats.

And then, eventually, we can abandon the party system entirely. But until then, why do we think we're limited to just these two parties? Just make yourself a rule: "I will no longer vote for the two major parties." If that results in Obama losing to Romney, tough. But at least we can say we stared fear right in the face and didn't falter.

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

I'm sorry. being able to "I stared fear in the face" is meaningless to me. I grew up in the projects of brooklyn in the '60's & '70's. I can say that anytime.

Allowing Romney or any other conservative (who proudly trumpet their support for the 1% plutocrat policies that have screwed us) is too suicidal for me. I;m not one of those who believes "it's ok if gets worse before it gets better" Getting worse means people starving, dying without access to healthcare, becoming homeless, Too risky for the poor of which I've been one. Too cavalier.

Instead of getting worse before it gets better. I think we can make it somewhat better before we make it better.

That means taking the dems back from the 1% plutocrats. How? 1-publicly funded campaigns, 2- constant, growing, active movement to pressure all pols to pass progressive laws.3- additional campign reform to allow better representation, and 3rd party access.

We ARE limited to these 2 parties! This is what we have allowed. We the people can do anything. If we can get together, pressure/protest/agitate for election reform we can improve the atmosphere for 3rd parties.

But I can't allow more conservatives to gain power. Sorry. We are not quite together on that.

Elect progressives, Vote out conservatives.

Peace,

[-] 1 points by brosefstalin (139) from Wantagh, NY 2 years ago

Democrats are only slightly to the left of Republicans. If you want to vote against conservatives, vote against Democrats too, because they do not represent the left.

I don't need your personal history, and you do not need mine. My family is from Brooklyn too, but who really cares?

If you can't stand by your ideology, then you are losing. If you look at a democratic candidate and think, "Well, at least he is better than the Republican," you have lost your convictions to fear. Standing ground in the face of a gun is one thing, but to stand by your convictions and what is right transcends the body altogether.

I have given you some of the history of the Democrats. You can continue looking at them yourself and see how atrocious they are. Clinton passed the Telecommunications Act of 1996 which deregulated media conglomerates and consolidated media into just a few corporations. Does that sounds like a Liberal policy? Clinton signed that into law. Obama bombs Pakistan and assassinates American citizens abroad. Does that sound like a Liberal policy?

3rd party access is only going to happen when we ignore the two reigning parties. If you continue to feed the fire, the world is simply going to burn.

[-] 1 points by LeoYo (5854) 2 years ago

Job Insecurity: It's the Disease of the 21st Century, and It's Killing Us Saturday, 07 July 2012 10:31 By Lynn Parramore, AlterNet | News Analysis http://truth-out.org/news/item/10199-job-insecurity-its-the-disease-of-the-21st-century-and-its-killing-us

[-] 1 points by brosefstalin (139) from Wantagh, NY 2 years ago

Thank you. I was just looking at your larger forum post about this.

[-] 0 points by EagleEye (31) 2 years ago

We agree on most except my observation that most old people are republicans that have most of the money & are intolerant to progressive ideas.

You don't have to look far to seem the theme in Human History, Mythology, & Psychology repeating itself. Generation Warfare & Ideological Warfare go hand in hand. From Assyria to Greece to Egypt, the young bring in new ideas that old establishment do not want.

[-] 2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

Many republicans ARE older. Also mainly white. And also majority male. The Tea Party movement illustrated that.

You are correct about history and how the young bring new ideas while the old frequently prefer establishment ideas.

But not all elderly. (Not all white men either) So we must understand these truths but use language that allows the inclusion of all (including thos e old white men)

We are best served by drawing the line at the issues. I believe we need progressive policies to counter/repeal the conservative 1% policies that benefit the plutocrats. I think we are together on this.

solidarity. Peace

[-] 1 points by Phanya2011 (908) from Tucson, AZ 2 years ago

I am a senior citizen and I can't think of a better way to spend the rest of my life than helping people realize that practically everything we believe to be true is based on a lie. Pretend you were just cloned into this world only with knowledge of mathematics and the ability to say what you mean and mean what you say. Don't say anything you do not absolutely know to be true. Listen to what others set forth as truth and question if it is fact or opinion. When I do this I feel as if I'm watching a puppet show.