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We are the 99 percent

June 21: National Day of Action against PNC

Posted 11 years ago on June 21, 2012, 5:36 a.m. EST by OccupyWallSt

poster for J21 action

via Occupy Our Homes. Actions in support of the Cruz family and other communities fighting foreclosures are underway in Atlanta, Chicago, Cincinnati, Minneapolis, New York, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, St. Louis, Washington, DC, and more. For more information, checkout this event page.

Counter G8

Since April 30, Occupy Homes MN has been working with the Cruz family, whose home went into foreclosure when PNC Bank mishandled an online payment. Although PNC executives have acknowledged their error and repeatedly told Cruz supporters that they are working on a solution, their actions have shown the opposite. They have refused to work with the family, instead working with Freddie Mac and the city of Minneapolis to launch a series of costly police raids against home, resulting in 23 arrests in less than a week. Despite ongoing protests, PNC still thinks we’ll go away if they ignore us long enough. It’s time to show them otherwise: on June 19, Alejandra and David Cruz will be travelling along with a team of supporters to PNC’s Pittsburgh headquarters to hand-deliver their modification documents and demand a meeting with CEO Jim Rohr! Occupy Homes MN is calling for a national day of action on PNC to coincide with the Cruz’s arrival on Thursday, June 21.


The Cruz family home in Minneapolis, Minnesota, went into foreclosure in 2011 when PNC failed to withdraw an online mortgage payment and then demanded two months’ payment as punishment. Unable to pay more than the current month’s installment, the family home fell into foreclosure.

After their home fell into foreclosure, the Cruzes began working with a local nonprofit that was supposed to be working out a loan modification. In February, without warning an agent of the bank came to the house and told them they had 48 hours to leave the property, shocking the family and ignoring their right to a legal process.

Alejandra and David Cruz have been active community members in the Twin Cities who have tirelessly advocated for the DREAM Act and educational equity for immigrant students.

Over the past month, hundreds of neighbors and community members have mobilized to defend the Cruz family home and support a 24/7 physical occupation of the house against repeated attempts at eviction by the Minneapolis police and sheriff's department. These efforts have brought the Cruz’s struggle to the attention of national media and into the offices of PNC Banks across the country.

However, despite repeated claims from PNC Executives that they are working “to help and rectify the situation,” the bank has yet to take the necessary steps to sit down and negotiate with the family. Activists have urged PNC to keep its word to the Cruz family and keep communities intact.

"This family can afford the mortgage. All they need is for PNC to take a look at their documents and verify the facts. At this point we're happy to hand deliver the docs to their front door." said Anthony Newby with NOC. "This foreclosure process has been botched and bungled from the very beginning and PNC needs to fix it. The family can pay and deserves to stay."

Go here to contact PNC & Freddie Mac about the Cruz family



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[-] 3 points by infonomics (393) 11 years ago

A salute to these brave and unselfish young people !

[-] 0 points by Growup5 (-84) 11 years ago

Unselfish would mean they brought checks to pay the mortgage. You see, the home becomes yours once you've paid for it, not because you chanted and carried a sign.

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 11 years ago

traitor to your own class?

[-] 1 points by francismjenkins (3713) 11 years ago

Under this premise, we shouldn't have bailed out banks right? After all -- FDIC insurance is designed to exclusively insure deposits, not bail out banks who made reckless decisions. The taxpayer subsidized reckless banking (so what's the incentive for banks to follow responsible business practices)? So I wonder, what is your basis for ignoring fundamental fairness?

We might say, the banks eventually paid back most of the money they borrowed, well, I'd expect a borrower (in a mortgage transaction) to eventually resume making payments (since we can assume, in most cases, the borrower lost their job because of the recession, and once the economy picks back up, they can make good on their obligations). So I don't see a basis for your implied moral argument.

[-] -1 points by Growup5 (-84) 11 years ago

The banks paid it back, with a profit. You should look into it sometime.

No, we wouldn't expect a borrower to catch up on their payments. Doing so is quite rare. In fact, even restructured loans have very high rates of future failure.

It's easy to carry around signs and chant. It's harder to bring a check. Any 20-something dope can chant for someone to get something for free. But there's no surprise here: defaulting doesn't make the house yours, paying for it makes it yours. Really, it isn't that complicated and it's exactly what they signed up for when they borrowed the money and spent it.

Maybe the Cruzs should've prioritized "tirelessly" trying to pay back the money they borrowed instead of political activism to line up more government goodies for people that don't even belong here.

[-] 2 points by francismjenkins (3713) 11 years ago

Can you provide empirical data from credible sources to support your claims? I'm aware (as I stated above) that the banks paid back (most of) what they hijacked from our treasury, but of course they weren't entitled to a loan from taxpayers in the first place (and in fact in some cases, money was loaned to banks, and through insider deals, the government wound up paying themselves back, oh yeah, I mean the taxpayer was just ripped off). What I mean to ask is if you can provide data that proves your statement regarding restructured loans? BTW, I'm not even talking about restructuring, I'd like homeowners to have a bailout, like our banks received, and when they're able (as in, when they get a job) they can "resume" payments (without having to make back payments).

I understand many of our citizens are deluded by economic mythology, lack the intellectual aptitude to understand these matters, or are simply indecent people (the type of people for whom history will just pass them by ... too bad so sad)! The statistics say there's a good probability that you're the type who hates brown people, homosexuals, probably beats his wife (and hates women), marginal literacy, etc. etc., so why should any decent person listen to someone like you? But there's hope, get counseling (and in the mean time, fuck off).

[-] 0 points by Growup5 (-84) 11 years ago

Sure. Restructurings often don't work. Problems people are having go beyond just minor fixes. They're dramatically unable to keep up economically or they're also unable to make it because they simply don't function very well. Down payments weren't just money tests, they were a test of functioning. For example, down payments test a person's capacity for planning, stability, and delaying gratification. These personal traits aren't fixed by modifications.

Do liberals have to accuse everyone of racism? Legitimate cases of racism exist and people like you that casually toss around the smear as a substitute for reason do them a disservice.


Bring a check and leave your signs and chanting at home. Occupy all you'd like, just expect to pay for it first. It's nothing new and nothing this couple didn't understand before they over-bought. It's their names on the mortgage and their names on the purchase agreement. It was free will and their choice. Choices have consequences and these consequences are NO surprise. Buy the house or move on.

Any idiot with time on their hands can show up to protest that someone else pay for something. The protesters make that clear enough.

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 11 years ago

Republican troll?

[-] 1 points by francismjenkins (3713) 11 years ago

Gee wiz, it's unfortunate the bank didn't understand all of this before then lent the money? I guess they figured, fuck it, who cares, we'll sell the loan off, bundle it, convert it into a synthetic security, make more money by selling derivatives based on those (worthless) securities, and eventually the house of cards will come down, but the taxpayers will bail us out ... so no need to worry about responsible business practices, being good stewards of our depositors & investors money, etc.

So yeah, any blithering idiot, such as yourself, can vilify the little homeowner, who in most cases lacks the sophistication, the bargaining power, etc., to understand they're being suckered into a bad deal they could never afford. Sure, we can bail out bankers and fuck over human beings, and then make ourselves feel better with this sort of superficial rhetoric, talking points from the right that trains the minds of its herd into dehumanizing these little people.

It's sad, pathetic really ... that your small mind is satiated by this shallow bullshit.

[-] -2 points by Growup5 (-84) 11 years ago

What's pathetic is borrowing money and then expecting to simply keep what you bought with the money, despite flaking on your obligations. It doesn't work that way. Homes become yours when you pay for them.

I guess what needs to happen is that people like this just shouldn't be allowed to borrow money. They're simply not capable of understanding what they're doing and they'll only blame others if it doesn't work out. Maybe they need a certificate of competence from the government before they can even apply. Sure, we could keep lists of people needing a sign-off from someone at the Bureau of Big Decisions before their signature is considered to be coming from a functioning adult.

I see those kids in the picture and can't help but think how stupid they are. And being that stupid, to so profoundly lack a concept of how borrowing money works, doesn't say much for their own futures. Maybe none of them should be allowed to borrow money either... to protect them from themselves.

[-] 2 points by francismjenkins (3713) 11 years ago

You're a sad person ... nuff said!

[-] -1 points by Growup5 (-84) 11 years ago

But I paid for my house and then it became mine. If you do the same, you'll own something too. Home become yours when you pay for them, not when you chant and walk around with a sign.

What should be 'nuff said, sadly for occutards has to be gone over again and again and it still doesn't sink in. It's the same drill with student loans. Again, really fucking complicated. Borrow money, pay it back. Think about the loan balance when borrowing not just after the graduation party. Nuff said.

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 11 years ago

You didn't buy your house during the scam your criminal 1% banker friends perpetrated on so many good hard working Americans. Your lack of sympathy for your fellow Americans reflects your lack of soul. Instead of compassion you show contempt for the victims. The criminals only get your excuses, apologize, even praise. You are brainwashed to support the 1%! They got you hook line and sinker. Repuiblican troll.

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 11 years ago

Apply your outrage to your criminal 1% wall street banker friends. They created the Bush great recession.

[-] 0 points by shadzworth (-394) 11 years ago

Don't waste your time trying to reason with VQ,this person is not accustom with such an advanced concept as "reason".

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 11 years ago

The criminal 1% banksters who created the housing bubble weren't responsible. You ain't complaining about that. I guess you support those criminals over your fellow hard working Americans. Those 1% wall st banksters crashed the world economy, Created massive unemployment, and lost 40% of our home value. I think that is why we have these foreclosure problesm. Lets hold the 1% banksters responsible. No? Your not with that.? You got yours?. your ok.? Selfish, greedy, blame the victim republican plant. Trader to your class. Tool of the 1%.

[-] 0 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 11 years ago

Of course they paid it back. They just print up some more, and BadaBing, Paid back in Full. and heres a little extra, too!!

[-] 0 points by Frizzle (520) 11 years ago

Funny. But that's now how most countries got their land. Most often they just took it without paying anyone a dime for it. But now people are suppose to bend over backwards to pay back money that never even existed in the first place?

Human life before profit

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 11 years ago


[-] -3 points by Growup5 (-84) 11 years ago

What's funny is how money exists when you want to borrow it, just not when you don't want to pay it back. This isn't about "human life", it's just about where you'll live. Funny too is that without profit, human life would be a lot worse off.

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 11 years ago

The criminal 1% banksters who created the housing bubble weren't responsible. You ain't complaining about that. I guess you support those criminals over your fellow hard working Americans. Those 1% wall st banksters crashed the world economy, Created massive unemployment, and lost 40% of our home value. I think that is why we have these foreclosure problesm. Lets hold the 1% banksters responsible. No? Your not with that.? You got yours?. your ok.? Selfish, greedy, blame the victim republican plant. Trader to your class. Tool of the 1%.

[-] 1 points by Frizzle (520) 11 years ago

You got the order a bit mixed up, it's the other way around. It didn't exists when you want to borrow it. It's your promise to pay it 'back' that conjures it into existence.

And having a place to live is damn important for our well-being. It sure as hell is a lot more important then so called profit. So NO, human life would not be worse off without this screwed up idea about making profit.

[-] 1 points by Growup5 (-84) 11 years ago

Great, you have countless housing options available to you. Tell me, which ones should we force your neighbors to give to you?

Profit underpins the system that's built the greatest standard of living in the history of humanity. Sure, it's escaped your notice, but it's true. The computer you're playing with today was created by that system. The medication you could be taking to help you better connect with reality? It too exists because someone wanted to make a profit. Smarten up.

[-] 1 points by Frizzle (520) 11 years ago

My home is secure. don't you worry about me. I'm just speaking out of care for my fellow human beings.

Yes sure, so great. Just look at the state of the world thanks to the current system. Wars, crime, poverty, innocent children dying of hunger and preventable deceases, people getting underplayed for hard human labor. I'm so impressed...

[-] 1 points by Growup5 (-84) 11 years ago

I'm not worried about you. I'm simply asked what sort of housing we should force your neighbors to give you to fulfill the housing entitlement you see.

Wars? We've had more peace in recent decades than in the previous history of humanity. Add not knowing much about history to what you don't know about finance and responsibility taking.

Crime too has been falling. Do a little research. At least in this country, it's overall been steadily improving.

Reality is that "innocent children dying" has come down dramatically. That's why the population has been going up so damn much.

Underpaid for human labor? Wages are rising globally, just not here in the U.S. as those underpaid people in other countries become able to compete.

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 11 years ago

neighbors don't have to provide anyone anything. Just take the 40% home value banks lost and take it out of their hide. Tax 'em up the $ss! Go after the execs personal property! And any moron who has the nerve to support those criminals should be foreclosed on. That would work.

[-] 1 points by Frizzle (520) 11 years ago

Wars: I guess you don't count invasions done by the USA as wars then.

Crime: Especially in the us the rate is extremely high. Maybe you should check some numbers before making claims.

Population rise happens in poor communities/countries. If poverty would be dropping then population rise would also be dropping.

For many people wages aren't even enough to afford a humane life. No matter how you justify it, that's just under-payed. Working a full workweek should at the very least be enough to afford a safe home and healthy food.

And then to think that a lucky few make unthinkable amount of money without doing anything useful.

[-] 0 points by Growup5 (-84) 11 years ago

They've been wars, just minor ones. Death by war has fallen dramatically since WWII with the U.S. managing world security. It isn't nearly the problem for humanity that it used to be.

Crime in the U.S. is steadily falling. At least check the numbers before making claims.

Population began to really hook higher once people started surviving childhood. It levels off as people get richer and women get more say so.

The human condition has a long ways to go, but the improvement track is obvious to anyone capable of paying attention and whose mind isn't full of propaganda. In the United States, even our poor are envied by billions. The chances of going hungry in the United States are essentially zero. That's new in human history. Our problem is obesity, even among our poor people. Good foods aren't expensive, they're cheaper. What's lacking is quality decision making. The same sort of defective decision making skills that make you poor also tend to make you obese.

[-] 1 points by Frizzle (520) 11 years ago

You clearly live in a totally different world as i do. I don't see anything of what you are seeing.

In the world i see it's America that's raging wars all over the world. Almost every country is being plundered by the global banking elites and their political puppets. I see the value of human lives being disregarded in the name of profit.

It's not all bad. I do see hope. But i worry about the amount of suffering people are going through. And how much more suffering there most likely will be before we wise up and start caring about each-other instead of profit.

[-] 2 points by plainscott (79) from Bowling Green, KY 11 years ago

I'm sitting here reading the comments, and this Growup5 guy seems kind of dense to me; not to mention in denial of the basic facts. Hey Growup5, did you miss this part of the story: "The Cruz family home in Minneapolis, Minnesota, went into foreclosure in 2011 when PNC failed to withdraw an online mortgage payment and then demanded two months’ payment as punishment. Unable to pay more than the current month’s installment, the family home fell into foreclosure." Um, sounds to ME like PNC acted incompetently, and then in a feeble attempt save face or to save someone's job at the bank, denied their failure to draw the mortgage payment from the bank account by imposing a punishment equal to the amount of one month's mortgage. Based on these facts, the family paid as agreed. So, either you do not know how to read, your basic comprehension skills are lacking, or you convince yourself that certain basic facts are not true simply to make an idealogical point. Well Growup5, point NOT taken. PNC screwed up by not accepting/drafting their mortgage payment, THEY have to eat it.

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[-] 0 points by CTFreethinker (4) 11 years ago

"The Cruz family home in Minneapolis, Minnesota, went into foreclosure in 2011 when PNC failed to withdraw an online mortgage payment and then demanded two months’ payment as punishment. Unable to pay more than the current month’s installment, the family home fell into foreclosure."

Am I missing something here? What I read here is that the bank failed to accept the family's payment & is punishing them for its own mistake by putting them in foreclosure. And the family is trying to get the bank to rectify THEIR (the bank's) error. They do have the money for each monthly payment, but not the 2 months penalty, all they want is to continue to pay their monthly payment. So why are just about all the posters here jumping on the Cruz family???

[-] 0 points by Oligarchophobe (21) 11 years ago

Rent a cheap apartment.,move in. Put for sale due to foreclosure in front Take picture. Post on social media

Make no payments, do not communicate with bank or agents ever

Reason. Banks want to hide how low their portfolio of loans really are

It drops the value of their homes very low

If enough people do this it will cause a bank panic.

Later you can pick up a home for pennies on the dollar.

[-] 0 points by desolationpress (11) 11 years ago

If you're tired of jumping to the easy conclusions that reinforce your preconceptions about the nature of the mortgage business, try reading the story of just another average Joe who played by the rules and lost:

See http://www.desolationpress.com/essays/indreview.html

I wish them luck getting Mr. Rohr to listen, but I don't have much hope.

Mr. Dimon set the new standard for arrogant detachment; I'm sure the others will follow suit, at least until they can see the pitchforks and smell the torches.

[-] 0 points by Magdyspd (0) 11 years ago

Pnc bullied me into signing a modification that increased my Mortgage for over 10k that I owned at the time of the modification. They said they added a legal fee of over 7k just because their attorney send me a letter giving me a warning saying that my mortgage was in arrears while at the same I was "working" with them trying to get the modification. With this experience I concluded that this modification deal benefits the bank and not us the working poor! From 20 years my mortgage went back to 30 years and from close to 90k it was increased to over 105k! Let's do the math! PNC got a great deal!

[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 11 years ago

I am somewhat lost on this subject of Bank practices of refusing payment and initiating foreclosure.

But should not the State Attorney General be after them for illegal business practice? Dealing in bad faith as well as illegally breaking a contract?

[-] 0 points by seanwestwispy1 (0) 11 years ago
[-] 0 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 11 years ago

"This family can afford the mortgage. All they need is for PNC to take a look at their documents and verify the facts. At this point we're happy to hand deliver the docs to their front door." said Anthony Newby with NOC. "This foreclosure process has been botched and bungled from the very beginning and PNC needs to fix it. The family can pay and deserves to stay."


dump all those family that can't pay their debt off the land

trust in the banking system

[-] 1 points by OccNoVi (415) 11 years ago

There's a plague of Team Lying. Here you've got PNC doing it.

Nothing new.

Lying seems to be the # 1 funny-fun-fun way to get around problems.

We got one helluvan example here, from Mitt Romney when he only dreamed of being president:

-- http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=364798730241320&set=a.369348663119660.89491.324698400918020

[-] 0 points by rutgers797 (37) from Wall, NJ 11 years ago

Growup - get a clue

[-] -1 points by Clancy (42) 11 years ago

Pay the mortage you agreed to pay and you won't have this problem.

[-] -3 points by Growup5 (-84) 11 years ago

"Occupy" housing: Pay for it and "occupy" all you'd like. See, while the protesters bring their signs and their slogans, they never bring a check. Housing doesn't become yours because you defaulted on something, it becomes yours when you've paid for it.

Truly, this is the dumbest generation of all time. Just another line up of stupid 20-somethings that can't even understand the basics.

[-] 1 points by JadedCitizen (4277) 11 years ago

This generation clearly seem to understand the basics of lying and cheating, and from that, they recognize the need to fix the lying and cheating world the grownups have given them to work with.

[-] 0 points by Growup5 (-84) 11 years ago

By borrowing money, not paying it back, and then expecting to just keep what they bought with the borrowed money?

When did this stuff become so hard to understand?

[-] 1 points by JadedCitizen (4277) 11 years ago

When did you grownups become blind to corruption? Did the corporations implant controller chips in your brains? I recommend you get an MRI right away.

[-] 1 points by Growup5 (-84) 11 years ago

They made a choice, they borrowed money, bought something and then failed to pay it back. But leftists have a typical refrain. Default is evidence of the bank's badness. What else could it possibly be? The remedy for the bank's badness, is simply keeping what you bought with the borrowed money. But it doesn't work that way. And if you want it to work that way, great, get ready for the 75% down payment as lenders adjust to the new rules.

It isn't that complicated. Everyone wants a do-over. No surprise there. Pay for the house and it's yours. Did the corporations plant a chip inside the Cruz's heads of mush and make them buy a house they couldn't pay for?

[-] 2 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 11 years ago

most pay rent whether to owner or bank

[-] 1 points by JadedCitizen (4277) 11 years ago

You should be ashamed of yourself for not having your head checked. Even Ray Charles couldn't miss all the blatant corruption residing within the private and public institutions run by the grownups.

[-] 1 points by sufinaga (513) 11 years ago

yes total corruption in the availability and price of land based on maximum exploitation of the misery of the working poor. who restricts the supply of land!? surely their ownership is the basis of this psychopathic society that has no concern for others who simply need a place to stay rather than being moved on in the homeless refugees by the psychopathic uniformed bullies that maintain this tyranny of restrictive supply of land, healthcare, education and justice. where is our freedom when the elite have privatised/stolen everything and bad mouth as communists anyone who wants their piece of the pie!

[-] 1 points by JadedCitizen (4277) 11 years ago

Corruption has deep roots.

[-] 1 points by sufinaga (513) 11 years ago

corruption begins at the top!

[-] 0 points by Growup5 (-84) 11 years ago

My head works fine. I borrowed money, bought a home, paid-off the loan (way early), and still here in that home today. I'm debt free, in fact. I understood that borrowed money needs to be repaid...by me. Clearly, a sick mind. LOL. Seems like I've been able to figure things out reasonably well.

But, of course, those NOT needing their heads checked are people that over-bought, over-borrowed, and now think default is sufficient evidence of the bank's badness to justify simply reneging on repayment and keeping the stuff. LOL. Lots of people AREN'T in this situation. Hmm, wonder why.

[-] 1 points by JadedCitizen (4277) 11 years ago

A con man in a suit and tie is still a con man. Banks have always had the responsibility NOT to loan money to people who can't afford to pay back the loan. The originating mortgager's started bundling these loans and selling them to 3rd parties, absolving themselves of the risk if the borrower could not repay the loan. Incentives were given to agents to sign people up. Even called some of the loans 'ghetto loans". The banks knew what they were doing. If the borrower could not pay it back, no sweat, somebody else gets stuck with the loss.

The banks had quite the scheme going, but like all good things come to an end, the banks came crashing down. Now, we got morons like you trying to cover the tracks of the banks. You're about as corrupt and shameless as they come, dumping the entire debacle in the lap of homeowners who refuse to be victimized by the banks and dare to fight for justice.

Everything is wrong with your head, including your sick loyalties to the banks over the human race. You might as well be a terrorist. You don't give a damn who you harm as long as you get to live high on the hog.

btfw, the banks (I know, I worked at Bank of America) literally lost track of thousands of the original notes signed by borrowers. Real fucking class act.

[-] 1 points by Growup5 (-84) 11 years ago

An idiot with a sign and not a check, is still just an idiot.

Sure, I'm just this ball of everything wrong in my head, yet I never landed in default.

It was a time of easy credit, no doubt. Huh, but many people didn't just gobble it all up like they'd just hung out the free sign at Golden Coral. They still understood the basics that are lost on you, the protesters and the Cruzs. When you borrow money, use your brain and not just your greed for the goodies. When you default, you lose what you bought with the money. Complicated at this is, most people understood it.

It nice how much sympathy you have for investors that lost money on housing. They appreciate your concern. But that still doesn't make the house yours without paying for it.

Occupy housing: Bring a check and occupy all you like. It's a well worn path to owning things. Nothing new here.

People like the Cruzs belong on a do not lend to list. Maybe people like that need to have a certificate of competency signed by their government assigned guardian before they're ever allowed to borrow again.

[-] 1 points by JadedCitizen (4277) 11 years ago

The problem is deeper and more systemic than some idiot with a sign.

The reason most people belong on a do not lend to list is the result of wages flatlining for three decades so some sick grownups could stuff more profits in their own pockets. To add insult to injury, some sick grownups decided the labor still wasn't cheap enough and moved their companies overseas so they could take advantage of even cheaper labor to make products. Hard to make good on payments while constantly getting screwed on your wages by profit vampires.

I'm certain Stephen King and Warren Buffet, like yourself, never landed in default, but I am also certain they understand the basics of honesty and fairness. And as they have not yet abandoned the human race in lieu of joining the legion of cheating vampiric profiteers, I know they would agree with me.

You can continue to make happenstance arguments about a whole generation being born idiots (what are the odds of that happening), or you can get off your idiot's throne and start telling the truth and help get rid of the viral corruption in this country.

[-] 0 points by Growup5 (-84) 11 years ago

Yes, it is deeper. It's an entire mis-socialization of the years before they picked up their signs that failed to teach them even the simplest of life skills regarding borrowing money.

The truth? Borrowing money is a choice. How much money you borrow is a another choice. What you buy with the borrowed is yet another choice. Default has consequences that don't include you simply walking off with what you bought with the borrowed money because you think your default is evidence of the bank's badness. Millions and millions of people get these basic life skills. Your crowd doesn't. Tell them the truth and their lives will get better.

[-] 1 points by JadedCitizen (4277) 11 years ago

Lending is a choice also. & the undeniable truth still remains, it is a banker's responsibility NOT to make loans to people who can not afford to pay back those loans. It is a banker's responsibility to not make highly risky loans, or used to be. It is a banker's responsibility to act in a professional manner with their clients and not push them into signing bad loans --- they even have a fancy term for it - it is called fiduciary responsibility.

Lying and cheating is also choice. It is a banker's responsibility to be truthful and honest about the terms of the loans. Using predatory practices to con people into doing something stupid so you can profit is wrong. It is unethical and immoral.

It is wrong to blame the borrower for a lender's total disregard for his professional responsibility. The banker is the person who is supposed to know and understand all of the intricate terms of the loan, which I've seen reach sizes wider than my fist, and subsequently not expose either himself or his client to undue risk.

You are an ugly person on the inside. It is disgusting to see the heinous little lies spilling out of your mouth onto this forum. Go away sick grownup and get some help for your diseased head.

[-] 0 points by Growup5 (-84) 11 years ago

Lending is a choice, you're right. But lenders aren't your guardians, they aren't. Your failure isn't simply evidence of the bankers's badness and therefore ample justification for simply keeping what you bought. You lose the collateral for your bad decision, and they take a loss for theirs. That's how it works and many millions of us get this simple life skill.

You are badly mistaken about bankers having a fiduciary duty to you. They owe that duty to their own shareholders, not you. But now let's see, what duty do you owe YOURSELF. Smarten up.

The borrower is supposed to understand what they sign, borrow, and buy. I was taught this and don't have any of these problems. Hmmm, wonder why.

Life skills: Learn them and then pass them on. Start with the Cruz family and those dopes in the lawn. They and their kids will all have better lives once they smarten up.

My "diseased" head brings a lot less misery than your responsibility-ducking blaming head. Mine is how you stay out of trouble, yours is a bumbling life thinking everyone else is more responsible for you than you are for you. Training people to be helpless isn't compassionate; it's the opposite.

[-] 2 points by JadedCitizen (4277) 11 years ago

How much evidence do you need? Crashing the world economy is not enough evidence for you that something is seriously wrong with our banking institutions. Taxpayers bailing out banks is not enough evidence for you. I never said lenders were guardians, I said they grossly failed to live up to their responsibility. The bankers were negligent in their duties to both the public and their shareholders. They acted more like con men than professional businessmen trying to earn a fair buck.

The con men bankers did not take a loss for their lending negligence and poor choices. They got bailed out by everybody else. No one bailed out the homeowners. You want a buyer's beware market where bankers and other institutions have no responsibility to the public, I guess it is because you like defending the right to fuck people out of their money. Congress, which is at an all time historical low rating of trust, must agree with you on this. This explains why congress works so hard to block and defund consumer protection agencies.

Really, I don't know what part of honesty and fairness you object to, but it is obvious we would not have gotten into this mess if bankers, and a whole host of other institutions, used more of it and less lying and cheating.

[-] -2 points by Growup5 (-84) 11 years ago

How much evidence do you need? You are your responsibility. You are not the bank's responsibility. Who raised you? Whoever did, did you a great disservice. I was raised to pay attention, to take responsibility for myself and to not go through life like some drone without self-control that'll sign whatever is put in front of me. Huh, go figure, I don't have debt problems. It's just a big mystery. Must just be random. LOL.

Debt is what's making the down-turn difficult. Banks? Wow, what a narrow propagandist view. Even governments have borrowed too much. Your state? How much did it pile up in promises to the unions and how did it use accounting to hide what it did? Europe? Debt drunk public sector problem. Your neighbors? How much did they borrow to fuel their greed for housing gains and consumer stuff? How many snowmobiles or boats do you suppose they were selling for cash? Choices? Nah, bankers.

The hangover from borrowing is what is making the recovery so slow. The savings rate was zero. People used their houses as ATM machines to fuel their party and to buy shit because they lacked the capacity to delay gratification. It's also dopes that want to encourage squatting and a slow-down in the reallocation and repricing of housing.

It's obvious that we would not have gotten into this mess if people didn't borrow so much.

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 11 years ago

You make excuses for the criminal 1% that created the financial mess our good American neighbors are in. Banks were irresonsible. They need the lessons. You blame the victims. And speak for the criminals. You are the one that needs to smarten up. But you got yours so F%$K everyone else. Selfish, and heartless. Republican 1% tool!

[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 11 years ago

By lots of people who are not in this situation - would you perhaps mean the shrinking upper middle class? Give it time with an unchanged course and they will be feeling the pain as well.

[-] 1 points by Growup5 (-84) 11 years ago

1/3 of houses in the country don't have a mortgage at all. Gee, I guess not everyone is an incompetent like the occutards.

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 11 years ago

1/3 didn't buy during criminal 1% bankers scam. You pretend not to understand that fact. but I know you know. Otherwise you gotta be a special kinda stupid not to. Your not stupid, just a republican tool protecting your criminal 1% banker friends.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 11 years ago

Show the link to that info.

[-] 0 points by Growup5 (-84) 11 years ago

You have endless time on your hands that you mostly use to call for more goodies to be paid for by someone else. You're just lazy.

We're not all as inept as you. We're not all just hapless idiots that'll sign anything or borrow to the moon, but then turn around and blame someone else when it goes bad.


[-] 2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 11 years ago

"lazy"? "inept"? "hapless idiot"? Weak argument=offensive insults. Are you a bully like your candidate Romney?

[-] 0 points by Growup5 (-84) 11 years ago

Those words are meant to describe, not to insult and they do it pretty well.

Borrowing money is a choice. How much money to borrow is a choice. What you buy with the money is a choice. After all those choices, whining and crying because it didn't go your way isn't a reason for a "do over" and for you just to keep what you over-bought.

Most people know these basic life skills. 1/3 of us, including myself, have no mortgage debt and many more have reasonable debt levels. I have no debt at all. Guess what? Get ready, this might come as a shock to an occutard, but I'm more resilient to whatever comes my way as a result. Who knew? Certainly not the Cruz family and certainly not those dope protesters on the lawn.

[-] 3 points by geo (2638) from Concord, NC 11 years ago

Business spends $70 BILLION a year on advertising. They do it because it works, they expect a return on investment. And the psychology of advertising is one of long term manipulation and its been well studied and documented.

You may think you are immune to it yourself. But you are not. Lifestyles are sold on TV. What the American Dream should be, how we are expected to dress like, what we live in, what we are supposed to enjoy, the correct brands.

The Financial Industry is well aware of this. What should be called Debt Cards are renamed 'Credit Cards', because obtaining credit is pushed as a positive thing. Owning a home is pushed as a necessity.

Financial Experts lie and help cover up inconsistencies with mortgage applications, and tell you as an Expert that you can afford that home, and he will help you get it, because he cares. Not only that, get in while you can because the market is only going up... as he pulls out the chart showing that since WWII housing has indeed historically gone up.

The banks make lending very very cheap... so market forces are in action, psychological forces through direct manipulation through advertising, and criminal forces through lies and fraud. Everybody makes out with cash.... accept you who signed on the dotted line.

Think I'll go have a Coke.... because its the real thing

[-] 1 points by Growup5 (-84) 11 years ago

Lifestyles are sold, so I'm not responsible for what I decide. Houses become yours when you default, because default is proof the lender is bad and simply keeping what your bought is justice.

Now, take what you typed and tell a borrower. Tell them to look out for themselves because no one else will. Have a little compassion and don't tell them they're helpless.

Frontline is a liberal show on PBS. They did one on the credit card industry. The point of the hour was that credit card companies are bad, very bad. But even with an entire hour, they couldn't spare 2 minutes to explain the best remedy of all: don't borrow their money. Sure, they talked about laws, writing your Congressman, badness, harm, and the like, but not at all about simply walking away from them. Huh, getting in deep with a credit card company is bad idea. Who knew? I watched the entire show simply to see if they brought up the obvious solution of not borrowing. They didn't.

Frontline simply wants to pave the way for being in hock up to the rafters to be safer. It's always someone else's fault for the consequences of being in debt.

"Being in Debt's A Bad Idea, Here's Why", now that's a show worth watching. But no, theirs was the equivalent of "Bad People Make Being in Debt Difficult, That's Wrong of Them".

Makes me wonder what these people do when they go to a restaurant they don't like. I guess they keep going back, but complain to their Congressman. LOL


[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 11 years ago

I agree some American consumers were uninformed. But the fin corp 1% knew these good people would default. The lack of fin education is nonexistant in our system (schools) by design to serve us up to the 1% fin criminals. The criminal fin corp 1% knew they would get the principle back and some profit then with the fine print scam, they tighten the strangle hold to put a lien on whatever property honest working Americans have. So maybe some good hardworking Americans were duped, but the "smartest guys in the room" knew! We don't believe in the colonial concept of "buyer beware" do we? We left that behind because it was dishonest. It was great to steal the natives land but we know better now. Right? And do not forget that many hard working Americans are in trouble through no fault of their own, but simply because of the irresponsible, immoral, and I believe illegal actions of the corp fin 1% who crashed the world economy and took 40% of our home value. You defend these people against good hardworking American people. What is wrong with you! Support OWS! vote out anti 99% politicians!

[-] 0 points by Growup5 (-84) 11 years ago

For your kids' sake, don't tell them not to believe in "buyer beware". Teaching ineptitude and helplessness won't help them have good lives. We already taught too many to be helpless, to sign anything because nothing bad can happen and, if it does, someone else is to blame. It's poor life skills. Many millions of us don't have debt problems. Learn how. And if you know how, teach someone else those ideas, not chanting and sign waving.

[-] 0 points by Growup5 (-84) 11 years ago

For your kids' sake, don't tell them not to believe in "buyer beware". Teaching ineptitude and helplessness won't help them have good lives. We already taught too many to be helpless, to sign anything because nothing bad can happen and, if it does, someone else is to blame. It's poor life skills. Many millions of us don't have debt problems. Learn how. And if you know how, teach someone else those ideas, not chanting and sign waiving.

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 11 years ago

Now you're just makin things up so you can criticize the political view you oppose (liberal) and the policies that would resolve our problems. Clearly you can't respond to the real criticisms I listed. You support the 1% criminals blindly. You resort to insults, and the schoolyard bullying tactics of your candidate Romney! You aren't a supporter of OWS. It is useless to discuss the important issues with you. You are dismissed!

[-] -1 points by Growup5 (-84) 11 years ago

Teach someone about the dangers of borrowing money, not to sign anything and then blame someone else when it doesn't go your way. Like Frontline, you draw unhelpful conclusions. The conclusion needs to be to smarten up and protect yourself. It's easy to do unless you listen to responsibility avoiding liberals that continually tell you that you can't and that you're a helpless victims in need of their protection.

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 11 years ago

Criminal fine print scams! Hiking interest rates without warning for no good reason! offering high interest rates when a borrower qualifies for a lower rate.! Usery! Loan shark level interest rates. High fees with no warning and no good reason. Anything over 10% should be illegal.

[-] 2 points by Growup5 (-84) 11 years ago

That would be fine to make anything over 10% illegal. But then leftists would come crying soon enough about all the people cut off from credit. They'd call it unfair, racist and anything else they can think of, except an obvious consequence of a rate cap. Come on, we've all seen the drill too many times not to see that one coming.

Borrowing money for goodies like cars and chasing an inflating housing market is a civil rights issue, but then so is being able to walk on the obligations while keeping what you bought when it doesn't work out. The liberal "mind". It's a terrible thing that it's wasted.

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 11 years ago

"stupid"? "greedy"? offensive insults= weak arguments. Blame the victims! Stand with the corp 1% criminals. Against your own class! The 1% have you hook, line, and sinker.! Just follow the money! The people who robbed us still have it. You defend the thieves and then call the innocent victims stupid, greedy, lazy, inept, dope protesters, ocutards. I suppose we just have to disagree. You have nothing of substance to say, just insults. You use the schoolyard bullying tactics of your candidate Romney.! You are the problem.

[-] 1 points by Growup5 (-84) 11 years ago

But they are all apt descriptions. So, whaddaya gonna do?

Honest, you're not as helpless as you've talked yourself into believing. Learn some life cycles. Take a little responsibility. Watch things get better for you. That's everything of substance to say. Tell you kids that what they sign, they sign, so ready it and understand it. Tell them too that borrowed money has a downside. Wow, huh?

[-] 0 points by VQkag2 (16478) 11 years ago

Yeah taking responsibility is American. The middle/working class are the only ones who have sacrificed and continue to struggle with your Bush great recession!. You don't expect the wealthy 1% to take responsibility? Why not? They created this mess. And they continue to benefit and live fat and large. You're the unamerican one here! lets hear you attack the 1% criminals who profited from the crash they created! Lets call on them to be responsible!. You won't do that because you are just a repub plant. Aren't you?. You have betrayed your own class. and carry the water of the 1% criminals who prey on you and your family. You think they gonna tinkle down on you? LMFAO. You ain't kiddin anyone but yourself.

[-] 0 points by VQkag2 (16478) 11 years ago

You're repeating yourself! We can agree on the uninformed American issue. What about the flip side? Nothing on the buyer beware tactics.? You just resigned to it? Or are you in support of these predatory practices.? Take a stand, or stand aside. Stop hurling insults at your fellow Americans! Stop trying to shut down the valid protesting that we need to grow.! Stop excusing, and apologizing for the 1% criminals that created this great Bush recession.


[-] 0 points by VQkag2 (16478) 11 years ago

Protesting is integral to the American system. We began that way. Our founding fathers were misinformed and broke the chains of their 1% oppressors. All American progress has been preceded by protest! So to discourage "chanting and sign waving" is unamerican. Thats you just trying to silence honest dissent. I agree that we must teach all people to beware of the immoral, unethical, and I believe illegal buyer beware behavior perpetrated on the 99% by the 1% criminals who crashed the world economy and took 40% of our home value. WE AGREE on that! The problem I think is we disagree in the criminality in this buyer beware behavior. I'm against it and seek prosecution, justice, restitution for the victims. You seem to have just resigned to it. Given up!. Oh thats the way it is. We can't do anything about it. Just watch out. If someone gets caught in the scam you just blame the victim. Thats just a convenient excuse to avoid taking action. Grow a pair. Confront the criminals. TAKE OUR MONEY BACK! Support OWS! Vote out anti fin reform politicians.

[-] 0 points by Growup5 (-84) 11 years ago

Great, protest away. But protesting with a point is still a better idea.

Go ahead, "break the chains". But how about cultivating that brain in your head about the chains you put on yourself? Nope, that idea is no where to be found.

Appreciating home equity isn't an entitlement.

Borrowing money is a choice.

The amount you borrow is a choice.

What you buy with borrowed money is a choice.

Things become yours when you pay for them, not just when you borrow for them.

Just some ideas to put on the 'fridge until they sink in.

[-] 0 points by VQkag2 (16478) 11 years ago

"ocutards"? "dope protesters"? "whining, and crying"? Try to find the compassion and love of the better angels of our nature. Reserve your criticism for the large corps who unfairly hike up interest rates to loan shark levels, and who have rigged the system to allow deceptive fine print scams, and disallow the reasonable bankruptcy laws we used to have. There is no good reason to charge as much interest as these corps do. They have already made back the principle and huge profits from the working americans who have been scammed by their deceptive practices. And these are the same corps the crashed the world economy and diminished 40% of our home values.. They should be punished by being forced to forgive a least half the cr card/student loan/underwater mtg debt of all working class Americans. We're not whining, or crying, They crashed our economy, lost 40% of our home value. We want our money back. You stand with the thieves? I stand with honest working Americans!

[-] 1 points by Growup5 (-84) 11 years ago

All fit very well. Check, check, check, and check. Yep, nailed it.

Sure, it's compassionate to tell people clueless about debt and its consequences that it was really just that bad banksters fault and that what they themselves did was completely reasonable. That helps no one and certainly not the people that are too stupid to figure it out without A LOT of help. Same goes for home-"owners" and same goes for those that over-dosed on student loans without a thought in the world until they graduated.

An every rising housing market and ever expanding home equity isn't another entitlement program. Honest, it isn't. Some greedy people like the Cruzs bet large with borrowed money that it was and are now crying and sobbing that their own over-leveraged housing play didn't pan out. "Turn the machines back on!", as they said in Trading Places. Tears, but that's borrowed money + greed + ignorance for you.

Have some genuine compassion: spread the basic life skills of how to handle debt.

You stand with "honest working Americans", especially those that leveraged up to chase the housing market. LOL.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 11 years ago

2009 report stats - and the report says that this goes by sampling and then averaging. Hmmm - wonder if the sampling was done in upper middle class neighborhoods.


Folks - if you own your home outright - keep it that way - do all of your business = cash and carry. Move your assets out of commercial banks and into credit unions so that they don't disappear when the market takes the next tumble.

You are also living on the edge but it is not that apparent yet.

Plan for the worst - pray for the best.

Don't wait to find out the hard way.

[-] 0 points by Growup5 (-84) 11 years ago

Smarten up. It's a big country, we haven't all been debt drunks. Millions and millions have better life skills than that and understand that slapping a credit card in your hand doesn't mean it's party time. And beyond the 1/3 of homes without a mortgage, many more have reasonable balances.

Stop being an apologist for people that make such horrible choices. Our society is missing a chance to teach a good lesson about debt. People came out the depression with a lesson, this time the blamers haven't learned a thing. They'll tell their kids that borrowing to the moon is a great idea, well, just as long as some bad "bankster" doesn't come along and spoil it.

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 11 years ago

When 50% of the population lives at just above the poverty level or just below - then the statistics of home ownership are skewed. The stats are for a smaller portion of the population = those in homes - and the stats were for 2009 - many more people have lost their homes - would that lead to showing a higher percentage owning their home outright today (?) as the numbers of people living in homes has continued to drop. The pool drops and hopefully people who own their homes free and clear have not done something stupid to lose them - then the percentage has gone up since 2009 as the population in homes has shrunk.

[-] 0 points by Growup5 (-84) 11 years ago

Many of them rent. They do other things too like live together and delay forming their own households. Not everyone, even low income people, are complete nitwits.

Home-"owner"-ship has declined. But it was pushed artificially by easy money and the greed of buyers trying to cash in. But not everyone is cut out to own a home, as we've seen. It's more than just money, it's a capacity for planning, anticipating, and preparing. That's where many of these new "buyers" fell on their faces. Renting is simply more appropriate for some people given their circumstances or their competency.

[-] 0 points by wonder23bread (1) 11 years ago

First of all, thanks for contributing to the site - because I for one find these discussions more interesting than the original post, especially when there are two sides butting heads and providing information to attempt to back up what they say. But just to get this straight - if you were in the midst of paying back this loan that you so proudly(rightfully so) repaid, and the bank screwed up the online payment in a way that you were unable to afford it - thus totally throwing a wrench into your whole geniusly devised financial plan which relied on the bank keeping up their half of the deal - you would accept it as you're own stupid, lazy fault? and then when by some chance other people kindly sympathize with you and help you stand up for yourself,how would you feel about some guy whose bank didn't screw up coming to heckle those people and act all high and mighty about it? it's like pulling over to a car accident where the guy's seatbelt failed and telling him that he's an idiot for not wearing a seatbelt...

[-] 1 points by wonder23bread (1) 11 years ago

okay, so you're saying all of this under some assumption that the article is wrong because you're assuming that banks are always right. good job.

[-] -1 points by Growup5 (-84) 11 years ago

Nope, I wouldn't, if it was that clean. But the chances of it being that clean, in my opinion, are slim. Why do they need a "modification" if it's just a payment mix-up? Who knows.

[-] 1 points by mserfas (652) from Ashland, PA 11 years ago

I think it might be more productive to consider the political specifics of U.S. labor laws on overtime - see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overtime#Federal_overtime_law for some basics. A very substantial fraction of American workers is exempted from overtime, and given a choice, companies would rather cover the considerable bureaucratic costs of hiring a smaller number of trusted employees for longer hours. If we could reverse this trend, and restore 40-hour work weeks to more people, the number of jobs would increase, and there would be less financial inequality between the destitute unemployed and the exploited overemployed. (Of course, there are options other than law - union organizing, or my favorite, some kind of major per-job tax credit for companies to compensate them for the cost of paperwork, plus serious attention to paperwork reduction. Then again, you can't exempt corporations from taxes if you don't charge them any...)

[-] 0 points by Growup5 (-84) 11 years ago

Yes, everyone's seen your idea. Take away people's freedom to work as they'd like and you think you'll make jobs for more people. Yawn.