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We are the 99 percent

Defend the Bill of Rights for All of Us.

Posted 12 years ago on Dec. 15, 2011, 2 a.m. EST by OccupyWallSt

On Bill of Rights Day, Thursday, Dec 15 there will be a Press Conference on Federal Court Steps, 40 Centre St., Manhattan, 11am. A coffin of the Bill of Rights will be brought to Federal Court Foley Square, NY, NY

The Bill of rights was ratified 220 years ago, on December 15, 1791. It is shameful that today, in the United States, we are forced to come together in defense of the Bill of Rights and our civil liberties, as the representatives of the 1% who rule this country continue to take our rights away.

Congress is attempting to bury the Bill of Rights. The National Defense Authorization Act of 2012 (NDAA) includes language proposed by Democratic Sen. Carl Levin and Republican Sen. John McCain that allows for the arrest and indefinite detention of U.S. citizens by the military, on U.S. soil and without the right of trial. This is an egregious violation of our first amendment rights and comes at a time when we are witnessing unprecedented attacks on our civil liberties.

Some of these attacks include:

Massive spying on the Muslim community, including the recent revelations of the spying by the New York City Police Department (NYPD) and the CIA on mosques, Muslim businesses, and Muslim student groups;

The continuation of the policy of sending agents into mosques with phony plots designed to entrap Muslims for so called “preemptive prosecution”;

The recent raids on homes of antiwar activists by federal agents, who have carted away personal computers, cell phones, books, and other possessions and handed the activists subpoenas to appear before federal grand juries;

The recent, often violent evictions of anti-Wall Street occupations around the country; The refusal of the Chicago city government and the federal government to allow for peaceful protests when NATO and the G8 countries come to Chicago in May, 2012 to hold summit meetings.

The potential impact of the NDAA's provisions to expand military detention without trial could render the other issues we all address seemingly trivial; any activist stands at risk of designation as a potential terrorist, especially if their interests include either foreign policy or enterprises that impact the environment.

On December 15, Bill of Rights Day actions and press conferences are planned in New York City, Boston, Chicago, Minneapolis, San Francisco and other areas of the country. Several national coalitions -- including the Muslim Peace Coalition, United National Antiwar Coalition, Bill of Rights Defense Committee, the Center for Constitutional Rights, Committee to Stop FBI Repression and others are co-promoting this call to action.

In New York, representatives from civil liberties, religious, social justice, and peace organizations will come together to voice opposition to the National Defense Authorization Act and other recent attacks on our civil liberties. We will discuss our plans to fight for the rights of all people and to defeat this repressive legislation.

For information on actions around the country, go to: http://bordc.org/.

Initial list of participants in NYC (List in formation)

The Muslim Peace Coalition
Bill of Rights Defense Committee
Center for Constitutional Rights - CCR,
Islamic Leadership Council of Metro NY
Islamic Circle of North America – ICNA
United National Antiwar Coalition - UNAC,
Council on American Islamic Relations - CAIR-NY
International Action Center - IAC
BAYAN USA Committee for Human Rights in the Philippines,
National Alliance for Philippine Concerns,
Pakistan USA Freedom Forum
Activists of Occupy Wall Street – OWS
Committee to Stop FBI Repression
Muslim Ummah of North America –MUNA
Islamic Center of Long Island



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[-] 17 points by xxcONScIENcExx (172) 12 years ago

This is it. There is nothing more disturbing than the deconstruction of OUR Bill of Rights. All Americans should be on high alert as to how this unfolds.

[-] 2 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 12 years ago

In addition to the things mentioned, strengthening the rights for workers, students, children, poor and seniors should be the main focus.

Keep on growing, keep on fighting!


[-] 1 points by ronjj (-241) 12 years ago

I am a senior - I do not want you helping to strengthen me even if your claim offers me the traditional "BUT WAIT" we will strengthen you twice, just pay shipping and handling charges." I am not struggling for freedom today - I already have more than I can handle. Find some other losers to convince that you are the all powerful help we all need.

[-] 1 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 12 years ago

"I am not struggling for freedom today"

But lots of people do.

[-] 1 points by bill1102inf2 (357) 12 years ago

You will be assimilated

[-] 1 points by SayNO2GovInc (99) 12 years ago

It's a rude wake up call America and if we look at history, we can see where we are headed.
NDAA citizen imprisonment is UNCONSTITUTIONAL but Indefinite detention has been Obama's plan; he said he wanted to develop it as part of his "legal regime" in a 2009 speech... to fit it within our Constitutional system, NEVER! This is serious, it is TOTALITARIANISM!
THIS is the MOST CRITICAL issue today. Please share the information and message to Military and Police here,
'Your Allotted Amount of Freedom has Expired!' http://saynotocorporateamerica.blogspot.com/2011/12/your-allotted-amount-of-freedom-has.html PEACE!!!

[-] 1 points by deejay (7) 12 years ago

Hmmm.....where were you people when the Bush administration passed the Patriot Act? Why are you so late in protest the loss of civil liberties?

[-] 1 points by ineptcongress (648) 12 years ago

osama bin laden bankrupted the US and took our liberties and freedoms!

1) he taunted us into wars and occupations which cost so much, $5-6Trillion, that the government is broke; 2) he unleased widespread paranoia within the government for fear of losing their seat at the trough if there was another attack. this paranoia became so extreme that we are abolishing the fundamental tenets of the bill of rights.

he's still oppressing us, since 9/11--it seems he has more control over the country than our legislators.

[-] 1 points by KVNLGN (154) 12 years ago

I walked out of the world trade on the morning of the 11th and heard explosions on lower floors. it was not osama. there were higher powers orchestrating wars and invasion of us citizens privacy. who owns the popy fields in afghanastan that produces 90% of the opium in the world...? Who owns the oil fields in iraq...? IMF, WTO, NATO, Fed and other central banks...its all the same. They are the true enemy and they are not done yet...they still want to orchestrate a war in iran and in the US. Why Iran, you guessed it, an oil pipeline that israel wants ownership of in that region... they need to orchestrate something soon before the re-hypothication of 100's of trillions of dollars by major banks, and condoned by the fed, rips thru our global economy. derivatives before depositors in the event of a bank failure, right ? that is the bankruptcy reform law that bush signed in 2005. It's either paper assets or physical assets, I know which assets i prefer. This is all part of their plan and the are about 90% complete, if the population doesn't wake up soon, we will have no liberty or freedom.

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 12 years ago

Exactly what do you want the population to wake up to - your unsubstantiated claims . Unless you can provide specifics, you are just hyping hot air. You want everyone to except your premises without anything for the individual to have to prove or disprove your claims. That really is not playing fair - this is not a communist country where everyone is going to swollow every work you put out there.

[-] 1 points by KVNLGN (154) 12 years ago

You need to gather all the facts, do your OWN research outside what information has been spoon-fed to you and draw your own conclusions. In the last 3 years, let alone the last century, the government/federal reserve has provided many reasons to not just blindly believe what they say as fact.
I am simply stating what I believe to be true based on what I have learned plus actually running out of that building on the 11th. All you have to do is watch 100's on interviews from other people at ground zero as well as firefighters and they will all tell you that there were explosions on lower levels. If you have been getting all your information from the major media outlets, then you are completely under their control. Federal reserve=war+debt+slavery, you can not convince me otherwise.

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 12 years ago

I am not trying to convince you of anything - you have already done that to yourself.

From the studies that I have read - there is a reason that elevators are posted with "DO NOT use in case of fire" How much of that jet fuel do you think went down the elevator shafts toward the lower levels??

And what would your point be if there were explosions on the lower levels and the building caved from the upper floors??

Your post is 90%preaching to everyone about their sins BUT you preach without a point. Waste of time.

[-] 1 points by KVNLGN (154) 12 years ago

You are an extremely angry individual, aren't you ? I know that I heard controlled explosions and I know that my friends heard explosions at the base of the building below the mall stores in the subway. No preaching here, just don't buy the news that you have grown accustomed to. You are like a sponge soaking up all the false news they throw at you. Look around right now, if you can't spot the sucker...well then it is most likely you. I am sure deep down you are angry because you know you have liived your entire life being lied to by the government that you supported. Since when are elevator shafts located by corner windows of buildings and why did the major media networks stop playing interviews from witnesses who saw anything that didn't comply with the governments assessment. I have checked a couple sources regarding the temp. for burning JET A fuel (standard in the US). The open air burning temp is less than 350 C. I think you would have to consider the WTC open air burning. Max temp is achieved only with an optimum mixture of air and fuel producing no smoke. Smoke is a sign of oxygen deprivation with results in lower temperatures. The WTC steel was tested by UL at 2000 C and retained it's specification. It is not likely that an open air burn for less than 50 minutes could have caused enough deformation to result in collapse. Wake up tomorrow morning, turn on fox news and continue your soire in zombie-land. toodles !

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 12 years ago

No, you are the one who needs to SLEEP IN. How much do you know about controlled explosions anyhow. Are you in that business.

Tell me.

  1. How many weeks would it take to prep a building like the WTC for a controlled explosion to have any affect whatsoever on the integrity of the building to remain standing.

  2. I really DO think that you heard explosions as your were leaving the WTC. And to what purpose do you attribute those explosions??

  3. What is the relationship between those explosions and the fact that an aircraft went into the WTC or did FOX and about 5 other stations simply make up those videos??

  4. How did you escape a building being blown up without being killed by the flying glass from the front of that building. You were seriously injured right?? The is little reaction time between an explosion in a self contained area (a building) and the time that a tremendous amount of pressure is released somewhere (and I am not talking about the revolving door that you claim you just went out).

You are right about me being angry in that I am angry about the ignorance of my fellow citizens who flock in droves to every theory of someone about something.

Just read these posts - these are your fellow citizens - if you are not a little angry that this could be happening and even this small number of people being hauled through this muck by their chains the let me say to you - then I am most likely talking about you too.

[-] 2 points by KVNLGN (154) 12 years ago
  1. It would take about two weeks, because that is the time that Bush and his cousin (in charge of WTC Security) shut down the WTC at night so that a private security team could "assess" the building. This is fact, look it up.
  2. Yes, aircrafts went into the the building but is that what took the building down? No.
  3. I was out of the building and running down wall street towards the brooklyn bridge before heading north and running through alphabet city prior to making my way to pete's tavern for a drink to calm my nerves.

It is easy for you to make light of terms like conspiracy theory when, in fact, it is only conspiracy theory to the elite who control the media. To other people, who question concepts and obtain ALL the facts, well, it sometimes becomes conspiracy fact. I am extremely angry at the brainwashed citizens of this country who blindly believe what this corrupt government force feeds them. They don't have the slightest ability to think for themselves, truly pathetic. Do you know anything about the financial industry ? If you did, you would not trust our government. You would be well aware that our bankers, gevernment officials and fed have been blatantly lieing to us about that current state of the global ponzi scheme that will soon go down the tubes due to the re-hypothification of bank collateral....You probably believe them when they told you it was a liquidation problem and not a solvency problem. You probably believe that it was okay for them to keep any gambling profits but give the tax payer the losses and that "main street" would be in such bad shape if "wall street" didn't bail them out. You probably think that it is legitimite for the bankers to keep 10's of millions of dollars in bonuses, not go to jail and, as it turns out, still continue to trade ungodly amounts of credit default swaps today....for what ? PROFIT. Again, why go into Iraq, oil = PROFIT, why Afghanastan ? opium=PROFIT.
Oh, but you have a problem with me questioning the motives of our corporate controlled government... Do you realize that while US citizens died in ww1, ww2, vietnam and middle east one group or cartel has continued to profit. If you would only consider taking in a small amount of alternative news each day you might consider other theories. But you watch only what you have been controlled to watch, cnn, msnbc, fox...all owned by the same cartel regardless if one gives you a liberal view versus a conservative view...you are a good little citizen, never questioning anything and finding fault with those who do.

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 12 years ago

Welcome to the world of the corporation - You have a point to sell and you are doing it. Whether or not you make any money out of will depend upon how successful you are at running your business. When I "cut": all references to me and my stupidity from your post - not a whole lot is left to consider. Your article is more about me (count them - 12 or more times the word "YOU" appears) than it is about your point and what you are trying to sell. When you go to print, expect a lawsuit from me for 50% of your profits since you seem to think that I have to be a part of your argument.

What your business is doing is called "HARD SELL" and you seem to think that is the way to sell your product. I for one, do not buy into the "hard sell" method of convincing somone to purchase (buy into) anything that I have to sell. Good luck in your business and I will not have any problem with whatever "bonus" you get for doing your selling job with that business.

[-] 1 points by KVNLGN (154) 12 years ago

Of course I expect a lawfuit, that is what you have been programmed to do. It's the American way, right? It is the United States "FOR" America, not "of" America...Gee, I wonder how much profit I will make from that statement. Either way, I'll give you a "cut" as the paper that flows from the feds printing press is worthless fiat currency. You ! no wait, YOU ! no no, wait, YOUUUU ! That is a lot of "you's," count'em up! How is that all-YOU-can-eat breakfast buffet at Denny's treating you? mmm, food...feed me more...don't want to think, just-want--to-be-fed....mooooooooooooow.....herd mentality.

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 12 years ago

What this can be summarized as, is this:

These posts DO NOT represent a teachable group of people. The only way they respond in any positive manner is if they totally agree with you or if you totally agree with them. It is one big LOVE IN - HATE OUT.

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 12 years ago

We could resolve this little problem that you blow way out of proportion. Since Osama is dead, why don't we just pick a big skyscraper in one of our cities and blow it up ourselves, then another and then another. Would that take your mind off binladen for a few months and help you get over your sad state.

[-] 1 points by ineptcongress (648) 12 years ago

no, just drawing a very clear connection between those events, and the cascade of actions that have very clearly followed as a direct and proximate result. and how dare you assume anything about my "state."

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 12 years ago

You wrote it, I can assume it. GET IT.

[-] 1 points by ineptcongress (648) 12 years ago

not sure what you mean here, but out of proportion? i assume you don't live in a closet... but we just threw away an incredible amount of money on war/occupation because of him, and not just on wars but big brother surveillance too--check out 60 minutes reporting on NYC's multi-billion dollar operations, and airport security etc... this is not at all out of proportion... not at all.

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 12 years ago

Out of proportion was a reference to you giving bin laden all the credit for what happened during the WTC disaster and afterwards.

He simply triggered something catastrophic that this country had been aware of was out there for a long time (Check out President Clinton era), from the initial small bombings overseas right up to the big hit at the heart of our financial district.

We finally reacted to protect further attacks and it did cost us money, but a little checking will show that that is not what bankrupted this country and definitely not anything that was under the control of bin laden - If that was the case, all of this could be disbanded today and we would be back to normal again, with money flowing out of our coffers, all of our "lost" freedoms restored and everyone would be happy - except for bin laden.

[-] 1 points by ineptcongress (648) 12 years ago

you say he "triggered something catastrophic" but yet you're saying i blew it out of proportion? that doesn't jive. bin laden knew darned well we'd chase him at any cost and we'd clamp down everywhere on security. these were his goals. this was not by accident, and they were completely predictable consequences that he wanted to impose. and yes 1/2 of the 15T debt is war related--figures in Iraq are almost 5T, Afghan, about half of that. we also lost freedoms which will likely not be regained.

[-] 15 points by Vykan12 (33) 12 years ago

Unless you want the US to become a military state, this bill needs to be taken very seriously. Make it your priority to oppose this absurd bill in any way possible!

[-] 14 points by CurveOfBindingEnergy (165) 12 years ago

The US is a military state.

Largest police forces, largest prison system, one of the largest prison populations per capita, largest military budget, largest weapons producer, largest weapons distributor ...

[-] 2 points by nomdeguerre (1775) from Brooklyn, NY 12 years ago

The military runs fake democracies in Iraq and Afghanistan, it seems they are running a fake one here. America, a democracy deception.

[-] 2 points by divineright (664) 12 years ago

For-profit prisons to boot.

[-] 2 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 12 years ago

Fuckin ay. Bingo.

[-] 1 points by NewEnglandPatriot (916) from Dartmouth, MA 12 years ago

It is about to expand even larger to exponential levels as population rises, economy collapses, more natural disasters, etc - it will get way worse before it ever gets better.

[-] 1 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 12 years ago

OccupyTampa protesting outside Dems office on this monstrosity

[-] 1 points by deejay (7) 12 years ago

Too late--the Patriot Act was passed under Bush.

[-] 11 points by nolongerasleep (57) from Cleveland, OH 12 years ago

We cannot depend on a veto from president Obama as he is a sellout just like the rest. I hope you are prepared for how bad things can/will get. Stand in solidarity, there are more of us.

[-] 3 points by alouis (1511) from New York, NY 12 years ago


"President Obama made a choice with chilling consequences today when he announced he would not veto the NDAA despite the lack of change to provisions of the bill that make it even more difficult to shut down the prison at Guantanamo and make indefinite military detention without trial a permanent feature of the U.S. legal system," the Center for Constitutional Rights said in a statement.

[-] 1 points by socialmedic (178) 12 years ago

The right wing is depending on votes from the left because they know obama sold out. this is a stupid reason to vote for a republican. ActuALLY all the more reason to vote against republicans.

[-] -1 points by Agent420 (1) 12 years ago

Obama is a one persenter.

[-] 10 points by Falls (11) 12 years ago

Obama will not veto this NDAA-bill. So much for all the Obamaniacs who still think this guy is somehow "progressive".

"It's [NDAA] something so radical that it would have been considered crazy had it been pushed by the Bush administration," said Tom Malinowski of Human Rights Watch.

[-] 1 points by socialmedic (178) 12 years ago

Obama worships Reagan. If that was not an indicator of what kind of president he would be, what was? The men of this country were to cowardly to vote for a female president. Many men would have voted for a female VP so long as she was a prostitute. Americans have repeatedly trashed better opportunities for their leaders. Imagine what the world would be like of Gore won his presidential bid. Americans have screwed themselves with their own greed, selfishness and stupidity.

[-] 2 points by DarknessOfGreed (41) 12 years ago

Im sorry....im no obama fan...and Bush was a disaster....but gore or clinton...come on? If her policies were anything like those of her husband we'd be just as screwed...and gore, he preaches about the Inconvenient truth (good movie) when he himself isnt too environmentally friendly...the guy's a hypocrite....the problem is essentially that all candidates are endorsed by the same group of people and back the same interests....choice is an illusion in our elections as the ballot box has failed us

[-] 1 points by socialmedic (178) 12 years ago

I do not think any environmentalist is a hypocrite simply because he or she may fly in private jets and have body guards. No ONE person is going to save the environment; the problem requires a collective action on a massive scale. The EXCUSE that a Prince Charles or an Al Gore is a hypocrite isn't going to fly with me. The real hypocrites are the masses of humans overpopulating the planet, polluting and consuming the planet to oblivion, with utter disregard for anyone or anything outside of their familiar nucleus. When the human race decides, finally that it has had enough of itself, when it acts on its own volition to curb its breeding and habits of consuming in a way that is beneficial for all living species on this planet ... the human race may have some hope. Al Gore was a WASTED OPPORTUNITY. Few men of intellect and vision rise in the political sphere. Al Gore was one of them. This country let him down in a very big way and in so doing let itself down, let the world down. NOTHING ON PLANET EARTH EXPANDS INFINITELY and if human insanity (fueled by a voracious out of control capitalism) is going to continue to believe humans can, ALL humans are going to die along with the thousands of living species they are arrogantly and SELFISHLY taking down with them.

[-] 2 points by JDub (218) 12 years ago

For these reasons and many more, I hate humanity as a whole. I like individual members, but overall, we suck donkey balls totally.

[-] 1 points by socialmedic (178) 12 years ago

not into donkey balls. Have had no sex or so it has been so much time passed , 25, 30 years. I don't think I can do it now. If only I could find REAL people.

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 12 years ago

So socialmedic - you have no children either legit or non-legit right??

More power to you if that is your decision. So what is your plan to stop it??

[-] 1 points by socialmedic (178) 12 years ago

No I have no children and I am now to old to have them so I never will. I actually would have liked to have had a son. I was never one of those who felt I had populate a whole city to prove I loved children. One or two to love would been quite enough. For I long time I hoped that people would wise up and stop acting so stupidly and selfishly. My formative years were during the pre-Reagan years so I had reason to believe the majority of the people were wise enough. And I thought that through their wisdom they would act in a ways that were good for themselves and the social aspect. The last thirty years have really shaken up my faith in people. I know that any power gained by force is short lived. But presently I do not think the majority of the people on earth are intelligent or educated enough to arrive at the right conclusions and act accordingly. Many will spit in your face figuratively or literally when you try to explain. Therefore I am convinced that the human race is headed for a massive tragedy. The universe is indifferent as to weather or not the human race survives and nature has a way of cleaning things up on her own.

[-] 1 points by ronjj (-241) 12 years ago

My wife and I have two children. When we were married, two was the "replacement" thing to do and we followed what we through was right.

[-] 1 points by socialmedic (178) 12 years ago

I think that is a very responsible attitude. It is very unfortunate that the world has strayed so far from that idea.

[-] 0 points by din365 (36) 12 years ago

Yeah, gore was so great, that hew was set up to be the one of the first "carbon billionaire" from the green scam,One of the mose expensive public speakers for the very same topic, AND, as mentioned, a huge hypocrite. You know something is wrong when somebody is preaching rapid sea level rise AND THEN buy a seaside Mansion! It's not JUST the private jet flying and bodygaurds that makes you think about his true motives. The problem is that not even Gore believes gore and everything he does shows it.

[-] 1 points by socialmedic (178) 12 years ago


[-] 0 points by DarknessOfGreed (41) 12 years ago

look...ill agree with most of what you said...im not going to completely bash human beings just for living..but whatever....but i respectfully disagree with the idea that gore was going to do something beneficial for this planet...hes a politician...politicians are corporate backed and since corporate has a vendetta against "that damn environment" there is no reason to believe that gore would have stayed above their influence....his ideas were good...like i said...i saw inconvenient truth..i agreed...but Al Gore was not the answer...no candidate is the answer at this point because if they were they wouldnt get backed, they wouldnt get media time, they wouldnt get noticed....we only see the polished finished product

[-] 1 points by socialmedic (178) 12 years ago

The only reason Gore was a Politician is because he believe that he could affect change for the planet through politics. Boy was he wrong. If he just wanted to be a politician he would have stayed in politics and invented other stories for people to vote for him. His interest in global warming actually started when he was in college and learned about it from a Harvard professor. It has been his life's work. To belittle it by calling him a politician is to do everyone a disservice. Not only that it is an out and out LIE. Gore has gone private and touched way more people with his issue through his film and other efforts. He has no interest in politics now and frankly I don't blame him. And I don't think that people who slander him deserve him. He is too good for this world.

[-] 1 points by DarknessOfGreed (41) 12 years ago

i do not agree, sorry

[-] 0 points by din365 (36) 12 years ago

Do you REALLY REALLY REALLY think that the corporate suits are not on board with the green scheme?

[-] 1 points by DarknessOfGreed (41) 12 years ago

i think they will tell the american people all the green stuff they want...have us thinking they genuiniely care...and then when we look the other way, they go about doing whats good for profit, whats good for business, not whats good for the environment or the people

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 12 years ago

What do you do to promote "green" in your personal life. How about any of the businesses or organizations that you are part of??

Are you, as an individual, making any impact at all?? or do you expect the big evil corporations to do it for you.

[-] 1 points by din365 (36) 12 years ago

Avoid electric cars and refuse to sign on with any energy company that uses wind, because they require destructive mining practices to harvest chinese rare earth metals that leech tonnes of dangerous toxic chemicals into the waterbeds, and avoid CFL bulbs because too many chinese workers are getting sick and dying from mercury poisoning from manufacturing. you know, being human and actually giving a damn about human life instead of playing into a scam that will kill more people than save. I'm not going to support africans being stuck in the stone age and dying because some models based around a theory says that if abdul has access to clean drinking water from an "non eco-friendly" source, everybody dies, unless you give so much money to "fix" the problem.

but, as for "organizations" and businesses, my boss was a big contributor to ducks unlimited. did fundraising and silent auctions on their part. after all that, they turned their backs on him after he was featured in a CAPP article in support of our energy sector.

[-] 1 points by libertarianincle (312) from Cleveland, OH 12 years ago

Gore? Seriously?

[-] 1 points by socialmedic (178) 12 years ago

Keep burning oil idiot but don't cry to me when you are starving. The cult of success in America today means sell your soul or die. I ride a bike for transportation and have since 1997.


[-] 6 points by boylemmh (6) 12 years ago

My 8 year old daughter woke me up last night with a nightmare about big fish eating little fish and she had turned into the little fish. I held her and told her everything would be okay.....tho' I didn't feel it, I had been having nightmares about NDAA (makes me more convinced about the whole collective unconscious thing). Hard to explain how a parent's heart breaks when we feel we are giving false hope.....then a friend sent me the "Organize" poster of the little fish together going after the big. I realized I wasn't giving false hope. Thank you OWS for hope. My husband, our 5 year old and 8 year old girls and myself are deeply grateful. We stand with you.

[-] 4 points by SwissMiss (2435) from Ann Arbor Charter Township, MI 12 years ago

Our dreams tell us a lot. Your daughter was being told about what is going on. Your daughter's dream and your friend sending you the organize poster is a great example of synchronicity.

[-] 4 points by Zendude (75) from New York, NY 12 years ago

I am so proud of our movement. In such a short time we have come very far. I think it is very important to note that the 28th amendment to the Constitution, first introduced in the House on November 18th, by Rep. Ted Deutch (D-FL), a member of the House Judiciary Committee, now has a companion amendment which was introduced in the Senate on December 12th, by Senator Bernie Sanders. The amendment, which will in effect strip corporations of their status as "people" and prohibits corporations from contributing to election campaigns, was inspired by OWS. How's that for a "leaderless" movement with no "agenda?"

So in addition to defending our rights on Bill of Rights day, we should also sign the petition in support of the 28th Amendment and make sure that everyone knows about it and signs it as well. As of now, only 15K+ people have signed. Here is a link: http://www.theoccupiedamendment.org

In the words of Phil Ochs: In the face of the people, who know they're going to win, there's a strength that's greater than the power of the wind.

All for one, once and for all!

[-] 1 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 12 years ago

Great news! I hope it will also include trade unions, political parties, pacs, etc. Only individual people have the right to take part in the sacred halls of Democracy! Of the people, by the people, for the people, does not include any others. Anything beyond this is not democracy!

[-] 4 points by jefferson1776 (4) 12 years ago

Is there something bigger behind this bill. Its disturbing to see so many of our elected officials(both Dems and Repubs)support something that they swore an oath to protect.Why was it so easy for both sides to agree on stripping away our civil liberties but so hard for them to work together on helping the middle class during tough economic times.

[-] 1 points by rascolove (2) 12 years ago

It definitely seems like a provision for a larger conflict coming up ahead. Seeing as Al Qaeda has been dismantled, and in light of President Hu Jintao's remarks to the Chinese navy last week "prepare for war", it seems like our government is gearing up for a second Cold War. If anything, this bill is being passed with the implicit notion of catching Chinese sleeper agents. And as an Asian-American living in a country where most people don't even bother to tell us apart, I'm getting my passport ready.

[-] 1 points by hiddenwheel (83) from Newton, MA 12 years ago

The people should stage a preemptive protest against the next war before it happens!

[-] 1 points by SwissMiss (2435) from Ann Arbor Charter Township, MI 12 years ago

Exactly.... that is my question as well! I'm appalled.... deeply appalled.... at Senator Levin (my senator) for being on the front lines of this. I'll be writing him for sure.

[-] 4 points by southernwoman (12) from Trussville, AL 12 years ago

A sad day for America. A coffin is appropriate. The implications are staggering. This bill will silence millions. Crazy, scary times.

[-] 3 points by jomojo (562) 12 years ago

Official comments are using buzzwords to imply that imprisonment will only be those planning and aiding terror attacks. It's a good thing for Julian, and Bradly that Wiki Leaks did not wait.

[-] 3 points by chessplayer (3) 12 years ago

I can't understand why millions are not seizing this opportunity to protest! 10% unemployed and another 10% unaccounted for, that's a minimum of 60 million people that should be on the streets fighting against this fascist government. I'm Canadian and I'm worried about this apathy. I'm emailing everyone I know about this site .

[-] 3 points by TheScreamingHead (239) 12 years ago

Occupy Xmas supports Occupy Wall St in this effort! Visit us, like us on Facebook also. Here is the blacklist to get money out of politics.


[-] 3 points by economicallydiscardedcitizen (761) 12 years ago

This is very disturbing. Please post on this page which cities throughout the US will be demonstrating today.

Many of us who visit this site are not in NY (I'm in Reno, NV) so the best we can do is participate here, sign petitions, make phone calls to elected officials, spread the word online etc.

Here's a link to article on zerohedge.com along with reader comments. Yes, people there are concerned Americans and we're not going to 'take it' anymore!

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/congress-passes-662-billion-defense-bill-aka-ndaa "Guantánamo Forever?" - Congress Passes $662 Billion Defense Bill, Aka The NDAA

[-] 3 points by ronniepaul2012 (214) 12 years ago

Well that's what come from Canadians agitating in America. NDAA has NOTHING to do with the 1st Amendment....the only you campers are familiar with!

The NDAA violates the Sixth Amendment’s guarantee to a speedy and public trial.

It also violates the Fifth and 14th Amendments because holding a U.S. citizen in custody, without formal charges, for indefinite periods, is arbitrary, and thus a violation of the Fifth and 14th Amendment’s due process clauses. Finally, the NDAA violates the Eighth Amendment’s prohibition against cruel and unusual punishment because detaining an American citizen for extended periods of time without charges is just that, cruel and unusual, in every sense of the phrase.

It also is contrary to posse commataris (sp?) ,,,you know, the military cannot act like police and habeous corpus.

[-] 3 points by Dangra (5) 12 years ago

Where did us Canucks come in here exactly? Please guys, we're your friends. We've fought, and died next to you for a century. We have food, fuel, hydro; anything you want really. Canada is open for business. Every Canadian would LOVE for you to rebound, and come back stronger than ever. You're our neighbours. We can't help but cross our fingers for you just like we do for our actual next door neighbours.

[-] 3 points by SwissMiss (2435) from Ann Arbor Charter Township, MI 12 years ago

Don't listen to the trolls. They have to have someone to blame for everything (except for themselves). I guess we're supposed to sit on our asses and not stand up for our rights. When we do, we get blamed for shit like this.... like it's our fault a group of people think they have the right to dictate to everyone else.

[-] 0 points by Cobra302 (2) 12 years ago

Except for when a US citizen tries to get into Canada and has to go through a FBI database check...and doesn't get allowed in because of some minor issue that happened decades agao. Canada doesn't like the US citizens...which is why they have instituted these ridiculous border checks to stop US citizens from crossing.

[-] 0 points by socialmedic (178) 12 years ago

Americans hate their neighbors. Why do you think they are so busy adopting third world children and "helping" nations overseas. A national self-hatred syndrome exists that is so severe that any thought of doing anything nice for one's neighbor is akin to treason. Americans LOVE saddle their own children with things like student loan and credit card debt- debt slavery to the grave. God forbid anyone do anything to actually help a fellow American ... an action locally understood as a hand-out to a lazy bum. Do yourself a favor and don't ask an American to think of you as their next door neighbor. You may end up with Round-up in your lawn and being sued for the shirt on your back.

[-] 0 points by FrogWithWings (1367) 12 years ago

Canada is in the same bankruptcy loop with most all other civilized nations. See if Canada's government signed any part of the United Kingdom's Social Security Administration Act of 1992.

They did, as did most other nations who are protesting now as well.

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 12 years ago

You STILL do not get the point and purpose of the Social Security agreement between the US and England do you??

These claims of a conspiracy to give control of our SS System to England have been making the rounds of these posts for several months now.

Please take the time to visit your SS office here in America. Find out what this law is all about. If necessary, tell them you will be working in England for 3-5 years and want to know how to maintain your US SS credits while working over there.

This absence of understanding, and promotion of these theories is more than absurd.

[-] 1 points by FrogWithWings (1367) 12 years ago

I've read and understand all the agreements. I opted out long ago and had my parents had any sense, I'd never had a SS number. I've only borrowed money, once in my life and could have gotten around that.

There is no valid, much less Constitutional, reason for the US to sign any such documents with the UK or the United Nations.

[-] 3 points by jgrace (20) 12 years ago

To defend the author, labeling dissenters as 'terrorists' is a violation of our first amendment. Agreed with you though, more of an attack on the ones you listed, the sixth being the most blatant.

[-] 3 points by TrevorMnemonic (5827) 12 years ago

The NDAA also designates the world as a battlefield. So which country is next? Maybe even continent? Yemen? Iran? Syria? Africa?

" The killing of al-Qaeda chief Osama bin Laden in Pakistan and the threats posed by alQaeda cells in Yemen and Africa underscore the evolving and continuing nature of the terrorist threat to the United States. The Conference Report ensures the United States will have the ability to meet this threat and neutralize terrorists from these groups and conduct effective interrogations"


[-] 2 points by FrogWithWings (1367) 12 years ago

All nations, especially the United States, should withdraw from the United Nations. Typing this puts me higher on the list of domestic terrorists than just your average OWS person. It's ok, those people know who and where I am, for years.

It's been so long since I've been able to merely board a commercial plane without having to strip naked, I'd be shocked to know such liberty again.

[-] 1 points by rascolove (2) 12 years ago

CHINA. The Pacific Rim is the next field of conflict. Hence Secretary Hillary Clinton's visit to Burma, which gets weapons from China and supplies them with oil.

[-] 0 points by agnosticnixie (17) from Laval, QC 12 years ago

Considering how there are only about 300 Al Qaeda members left alive, all on the run because everyone has been hunting them down for 10 years (well; maybe not our "friend" Saudi Arabia, but even the "evil" republic of Iran has been :p ), the fact that we still use it as a bogeyman to justify what is essentially another bill to excuse martial law (the Patriot act already contains the basics) is rather telling.

[-] 2 points by Steve15 (385) 12 years ago

Thank you MOTO. (master of the obvious) NDAA has everything to do with the first amendment. Intimidation is the tool of choice. It will silence millions.

[-] 1 points by vets74 (344) from New York, NY 12 years ago

First, for those with a lazy streak, it's the Posse Comitatus Act which is U.S. Code (18 U.S.C. 1385) from 1878.

Second, for those with a lazy reading streak, this "Defend the Bill of Rights For All of Us" posting addresses Bill of Rights Day. There's no mention of the 1st Amendment. (This guy doing a cut-and-paste from another spam posting from some other web site ???)

Third, it's nice to see OWS NYC playing well with others. This is somebody else's show and we're going to show up as supporters. Shows that we can be good followers and good citizens. That's good. Really good.

We are the 99% and we must go in peace.

[-] 0 points by FrogWithWings (1367) 12 years ago

Th problem with that, is once somebody, or many sombodys have been detained, The Supreme Court will not hear much in the way of case law decided after 1938 and nothing about NDAA violates DC's 1871 Constitution and all it's fine print, especially the terms of reorganization, of which FDR signed off on, with the world's bankers including the United Nations.

[-] 0 points by vets74 (344) from New York, NY 12 years ago

Damn near nobody showed up. Maybe a dozen of us.

The people I know who follow the Supreme Court think that this will be voided. Problem is, that process can take 5 years at a minimum.

I'm not worried today about a rightie Executive Branch picking up the whole of the ACLU. That's for a century from now.

[-] 3 points by yarichin (269) 12 years ago

There is no united States of America and no constitution for it. It was replaced by a corporation using the name UNITED STATES 140 years ago. The bill of rights has no meaning anymore. America IS a corporation not a government. http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/usc_sec_28_00003002----000-.html see 15 A. The last legitimate government we had was when Lincoln took office. The Revolutionary War, War of 1812, and the Civil War were all just England vs the united States of America. Every time we spent money on war we went deeper into the British Royal Family's (AKA Rothschilds) pockets. They own our country to this day. http://www.serendipity.li/jsmill/us_corporation.htm Washington DC functions in a very much like Hong Kong did it is owned by the English Crown for the purpose of extracting money from America. The difference is Hong Kong had an expiration date DC does not.

[-] -2 points by sufinaga (513) 12 years ago

yes this is correct! the queen of england is the Whore of Babylon riding on the back of the great beast. the prophesy is clear! weep not for babylon will fall!! we are they who are going through the great tribulation. march for freedom. WE ARE FIGHTING FOR OUR LIVES, LIBERTY AND THE PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS!!

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 12 years ago

All that we have, our lives, our liberties and the greatest freedom to pursue happiness that the world has ever know - yet you are unhappy.

I can only wonder what it WOULD TAKE to make you happy, even as you pursue happiness.

[-] 1 points by sufinaga (513) 12 years ago

it would make me happy to give our children hope! it would make me happy to live in an atmosphere of joy in a loving community! it would make me happy to protect our children and community from christians and muslims. child protection will destroy christianity just as surely as womens liberation will destroy islam. both religions are BS and both religions are run by men and both religions will attempt to recruit from among us!

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 12 years ago

As a parent, only YOU can take hope away from your children. Find that loving community, they DO EXIST. It is your responsiblity as a parent to protect your children from Christians and Muslims just as it is my responsibility to protect my children from Athiests. I my opinion, Athiesm is BS too which is run by men so what is your point?

[-] 1 points by sufinaga (513) 12 years ago

atheism, christianity and islam are indistinguishable one-life dogmas all intolerant of others, free thinking spiritualists. we are spiritual beings! my point is we are fighting for our lives against the fascist FEMA concentration camps and that there are ENEMY AGENTS among us who bow down to the queen like "ARCHBISHOP" DESMOND TUTU!!!

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 12 years ago

sufinaga - you evidently have not done more that a cursory study of any of the religions or non-religions that you lump together. Why do you not include your religion of "free thinking spiritualists" in with all the others - is it because you now more about it than the others??

And how can you possibly be a "free thinking spiritualist" with all of your dogmas.

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 12 years ago

It is difficult to believe that as a free thinking spiritualist you can be so enslaved, beaten down and burdened with "fighting for our lives against...FEMA" and the enemy agents that you see all around youself.

I have full freedom in my Savior and my faith, in that I know who is in control and what the final outcome of my life will e and I do not have to live under such burdens as you portray.

[-] 1 points by sufinaga (513) 12 years ago

THIS IS A CHILD PROTECTION ISSUE! we must protect our children's minds frim violent images of crucifixion! the romans invented christianity, there was no virgin birth and no resurrection. what is your INTENT in putting violent images in children's minds?

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 12 years ago

Child protection issue my foot. This is an adult promoting what they want issue - and no one is standing in your way of doing that. Sure, protect your children- but realize that I have the same right to protect mine.

Go into Hastings and break all the CD's, go into WalMart and destroy all those posters, go into the Christian Bookstore and rip up all those Easter themed items, then you can go home and yell at the top of your lungs "there was no virgin birth ad no resurrection" your kids will think you have lost it because they will not have the least idea what you are shouting into the little secluded world.


[-] 1 points by sufinaga (513) 12 years ago

LMFAO "Go Ye out from among us and be Ye separate!" you do not believe in ABSOLUTE EQUALITY. your joy is in your religion our joy is in OUR COMMUNITY which we will not let you take over. you are here to save us, we are here fighting for our lives against this fascist tyranny. we have a GENERAL ASSEMBLY you follow your pastor's instructions. you are ENEMY agents!

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 12 years ago

You are correct that I do not believe in ABSOLUTE EQUALITY. I cannot explain it and so far neither have you.

You post is the same as others on here - it is all about someone else. Count the number of times you use the words (ye, you, your) and see what this post is really about. Take those references and their corresponding pronouncements out of the post and the only thing you have left is your ASS and a GENERAL ASSEMBLY.

Enjoy both.

[-] 1 points by sufinaga (513) 12 years ago

you cannot see this is a CHILD PROTECTION ISSUE. you think it is good parental practise to put violent images into your children's minds. ours is a NONVIOLENT movement, ahimsa, but look at all the christian instruments of torture used by the Inquisition. perhaps you want to produce a ladybird book on your christian torture inventions. you cannot see that is how we see crucifixion. "by their fruits ye shall know them" we have seen your fruits. we must protect our community from your bullying horror stories. we deny your authority and BS beliefs. we can see the EVIL INTENT behind the gospel which is to brutalise and enslave. OUT DEMONS OUT.

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 12 years ago


SO let's say that it is a child protection issue. So is watching cartoons on TV, reading a lot of the fables and childhood stories, allowing a child to see a newspaper or magazine, allowing a child to talk with any other persons who might have somekind of bad news, attend a funeral of a loved one who died of something like cancer, allowing the child to have a needle thrust into their arm in the name of disease prevention, riding down the road in a vehicle with anytype of advertising in view, going into any store where any sharp objects are sold, having any glass object or sharp object in the home when some member of the household might be injured by such, not having dual covers on electrical plugs everywhere that the child goes, not allowing the child to go to any public or private school where they might be confronted by such demons, not hearing any music with reference to anything that might be construed as demonic, and definitely not listening to African drums, operas, or other musical presentations wherein the music itself carries the theme of good and bad, and definitely NOT BEING ALLOWED AROUND A MOTHER who sees demons around every corner.

Good luck MOM - and I am not just talking about the first five years of your child's life - Good luck for the entire life of your child. May you live LONG, you may be the only protection that that child will ever have - even when that child is 70 years old.

And as I told one other poster on one of these forums:

 You are definitely   "digees bilagonna"
[-] 1 points by sufinaga (513) 12 years ago

totally ignorant!?!? we have had 2000 years of the VIOLENT horrors of the christian "religion": christendom is the roman empire. the head of the anglican church is a german fascist, the queen and the whore of babylon. the head of the catholics is a german fascist. christians are FASCIST STOOGES!!

[-] -1 points by ronjj (-241) 12 years ago


If you EVER come with up anything good and worthwhile to day, please let me know.

You may choose of live your life of hate - I will live mine of love.

The best to you.

[-] 1 points by sufinaga (513) 12 years ago

you miss the point that the christian church is a fascist organisation with an EVIL INTENT. christianity is BAD MENTAL HEALTH. we have had 2000 years of christian VIOLENCE and HORROR we have been brutalised by christian BS. christians are a bunch of psychos reliving the crucifixion, pretending they are eating dead jesus' flesh and drinking his blood. telling children their mothers are sinners is GROOMING. telling children jesus died for their sins is MENTAL ABUSE. fishers of men are predators of men. we must protect our community from christian predators. they are the wolves in sheeps clothing. we are the meek who will inherit the earth!

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 12 years ago

It really is NOT my fault that you are totally ignorant of which you speak.

If the meek do inherit the earth, don't expect to get much space yourself. You already carry yours around at the top of your neck -

Meekness does not seem to be your real strong point anyway.

[-] 2 points by PeoplehaveDNA (305) 12 years ago

Can you please do this again every week. I can' t make this week but if you keep doing this I will join you. On a priority list of 1-10 this should be a 10 the highest.

[-] 2 points by tsdevi (307) 12 years ago

Read the December issue of Orion Magazine, titled The One Percenters. It offers a concise history of the state of affairs in NYC. Occupying Wall Street might be the least effective means of bringing about the necessary changes, given what has become of the megalopolis. Furthermore, the major global challenge that we face is preserving our natural resources, especially land resources. People need to leave the cities and prove that they can be stewards of the land without government influence.

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 12 years ago

Please stay in the cities - I have seen what happens you all leave and try to tell us country folks what to do and how to live. Please don't come out here, don't protest our stewardship of the land that we have and love AND whatever, DO NOT bring your government influence with you. You just keep it like you wanted it in the first place.

[-] 2 points by chris120360 (2) 12 years ago

Is there any chance that the U.S. Supreme Court will rule this Bill to be unconstitutional? But then...this is a silly question. They have proven time and again that they are just as corrupt as the politicians.

[-] 1 points by independentmind (227) 12 years ago

Actually, every time something like this comes up, they rule it UNconstitutional. And in direct conflict of the Geneva Convention, here are some links for you, but the point is, they rule this unlawful (both nationally and internationally) and our gov't comes up with a "new" bill overriding it... they rule that unlawful... gov't comes up with a "new" bill... and so the cycle goes. Pretty sure this will be more of the same. Precedent was set back in 2006... reinforced in 2007... again in '08... you get the picture.




[-] 1 points by SwissMiss (2435) from Ann Arbor Charter Township, MI 12 years ago

The Supreme Court is made up of sellouts as well (most of them are).

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 12 years ago

SwissMiss - Good morning.

May I ask one simply question of you today. IS there ANYONE or ANYTHING about America that you like or have any faith in today other than yourself?? I really would like to hear something from you that expresses a positive about a positive in America. (NOT a negative about a positive) if you understand what I am saying.

Anything good about America at all - it would make my day and you never know - might make yours too.

[-] 0 points by iamows13 (10) 12 years ago

She will most likely not reply to a common sense statement or question. I feel sorry for swissmiss because she seems to be so unhappy. It was nice of you to wish her a Merry Christmas but she has posted in the past that she is against Thanksgiving and Christmas. I cannot imagine what happened to make her so miserable. Merry Christmas to you and your family, friends, and coworkers.

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 12 years ago

Thanks much. I have worked with people all of my life and people get hammered down for various reasons. Sometimes it is for a cause, sometimes BEcause, and sometimes for attention, and once in a while, it is a turning against everything and everyone in life.

Merry Christmas to you and yours. Our entire Christmas revolves around our family being together and sharing fellowship together and with friends and coworkers.

[-] 0 points by iamows13 (10) 12 years ago

That is how we spend Christmas also, thanks for the reply.

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 12 years ago

Hey, chris120360, you sure are a bastion of hope and faith in this country. You will probable find another 20 or so on this forum that totally agree with you. I DO NOT nor do the 20 people in my immediate family.

[-] 0 points by SwissMiss (2435) from Ann Arbor Charter Township, MI 12 years ago

Negative much? All you do is post negative comments toward people and rarely contribute anything. You can stay in the country with all the other ignorant, sheltered, fearful people.... and keep kissing the asses of those who control everything here.... including the corrupt, Supreme Court.

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 12 years ago

And all you do is come back with more put downs, vague statements about contributions and where I can stay.

THERE is ONE ASS that I have no intention of kissing and that is YOURS. And that IS a positive statement on my part-sorry that you could not think of anything.

PS - My wife makes really good snickerdoodle cookies, I love the Midwest-but I love the Southwest more, my youngest grandson will be here on Dec 27 and I can't wait, it is a cold but beautiful day here, my employees are busy planning our Christmas day out with their families and mine, I fly the US Flag every day at my business and I am not ashamed of it or of what it stands for, I am glad that our troops are headed home from Iraq, my taxes are all paid current, I have great tenants in all of my rentals, I am very blessed to be in a family and to be working with people that are not ignorant, sheltered or fearful of the future, I am rewarded every day with the accomplishments of the guys and guys that I work with when I see one of them open their own business, one planning to enroll in college this spring, and the other working towards his GED, I am blessed that I have the freedom to worship in a great church with great people who are promoting positive attitudes among our youth, I look forward to being able to work every day and to provide needed goods and services to others, I am thankful that we have a Krogers grocery in town because I realize that over 10% of the profit they make on my purchases will go to charity, I am thankful that I get to vote for the major things that affect my life, I am thankful that I had the opportunity to attend and graduate from the University of Iowa as the first member of my family to do so, I am blessed that three of my grandsons have had the opportunity during the past three summers to be a part of teams going to this and foreign countries on projects to help improve the lives of others, I am thankful that you, Swiss Miss have the freedom to speak your mind regarding all topics including me, and I am thankful that I was taught and fully believe that even though I do not agree with you in your posts towards me, I can still say I Love You and I wish you a Merry Christmas.

[-] 0 points by agnosticnixie (17) from Laval, QC 12 years ago

The Patriot Act, Enemy Belligerents Act, etc, were all ruled constitutional. Not a chance.

[-] 2 points by tsdevi (307) 12 years ago

It would be best if our energies were not focused on the bravado of the presidential election and all the money it spends and wastes, but on discussing what we stand for as a nation. Given what has happened these past four years and how Obama has been indoctrinated into the corporate ethos, it ought to be clear that it is not necessarily the candidate, but the office, that is most corrupted. Enough with the pageantry! It is all lies. Let us discuss more important things and ask important questions. Here is one: Why must I be subjected to Jack in the Box ads when I watch t.v.? Why do we continue to subject ourselves to the production-consumption model, even when it proves to be detrimental?

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 12 years ago

You choose to be subjected to Jack in the Box ads. You made that choice when you had electricity hooked up to your residence, when you bought a TV, when you had cable connected, when you turned your TV onto a privately controlled channel, and when you continued to watch what was on the screen. That is WHY you must be subjected to Jack in the Box ads when you watch t.v. Do you have any other great philosophical questions today that I could help you with.

You could be like a lot of Americans (Native American, Amish, Mennonites, etc) and make the free will choice to NOT be subjected to Jack in the BOX ads.

You have that freedom guaranteed all the way from the Consititution down to your dollar bill that you use to pay for your suffering. IN simple terms, you are buying your own thing to complain about.

It is equivalent to saying why do I have to be subjected to listening to Bing Crosby on my car radio, when I drive. The answer is simple YOU DO NOT HAVE TO BE-YOU DO IT YOURSELF

[-] 2 points by alexrai (851) 12 years ago

Hey that's amazing I agree with you for once. Getting rid of the TV is the best thing that can happen to a household.

TV Programs are just lures used by media companies to sell your brains to advertisers, why anyone would actually pay money to a cable company for the privilege having their mind being sold I will never understand.

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 12 years ago

Hope it will be more than once before I cut out of here. It really has been going on for centuries - remember the snake oil salesman in the old west - how about all those salesmen that traveled the country in the late 1800's with minitures of all the furniture etc that they had to sell - Today the SELL is a lot easier, we invite them into our livingrooms to sell us things - we don't have to go out to their wagon load of goodies.

[-] 1 points by alexrai (851) 12 years ago

Probably another in the future if you stick around for a while hehe. ;)

haha yup, like an inter-dimensional portal for product pushing... and people sitting there drooling on themselves, minds switched off, just ripe for a pillaging... and the worst part about it, the programing is terrible.

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 12 years ago

Do you know what makes all of this really great - once you understand marketing and other business practices there is nothing like walking through a big box store or even a Mom and Pop store and figuring out all the gimmics that are reaching OUT to get you to buy something.

It is about like watching David Copperfield perform when you already know how the trick works.

Unfortunately, a lot of us do not know what those gimmics are.

It is great to walk through our newly remodeled WalMart and to see all the new gimmics from the where merchandise is located to the new endcaps, the new TV units at the end of the food aisles, etc.

I am still working on all the reasons for the "blue" checkout counters etc. I have part of it figured out by standing back 20 feet from the checkout areas, but there is something else that I have not put my finger on yet - it is there through.

[-] 1 points by alexrai (851) 12 years ago

They've defiantly gotten pretty sophisticated. I've never really made a point of trying to spot gimmicks, but it actually sounds kinda fun; I might just have a sales gimmick scavenger hunt next time I'm out browsing hehe.

Prestige pricing is always my favorite ploy, it will never cease to amaze me how people will assume the same product is so much better just because it costs more.

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 12 years ago

I am sad to see that a good retailer like JCPenney has fallen for this tactic. Overprice everything and run sales all the time. Too many of our good retailers seem to be going this way.

[-] 1 points by tsdevi (307) 12 years ago

How very accusative Mr. Know it all. I don't even own a television, how do you like them apples? You are very incorrect, as it is not my demand for fast food that creates the ads, but the overwhelming deference that is paid to the production-consumption model. Retreating to religiosity is not desirable or efficacious and more people need to learn to be stewards of the land, so share you knowledge, otherwise it will be lost!

[-] 2 points by FreedomWar (2) 12 years ago

Occupy the White House! President Obama must do something now. Raise the Minimum Wage to $10!

[-] 2 points by sufinaga (513) 12 years ago

better a living wage of $15!!!

[-] 2 points by SwissMiss (2435) from Ann Arbor Charter Township, MI 12 years ago

And $15/hr barely is a living wage after paying taxes.

[-] 1 points by independentmind (227) 12 years ago

I bought a house and raise a child comfortably on $15/hr. And I worked hard to get here. I don't think I'll take kindly to everyone just "getting" that wage because they take up space here. Sorry.

But don't believe the hype. You can make it on $10/hr. I did for years before my raises... which brought me to where I am today. Which, if I have this right, is everything you are screaming we can not accomplish. Hm.

Oh. And as a point of interest, I did this all in Central NY. Only California has a worse rap. But somehow, amazingly, I still did it. Hm again.

[-] 2 points by spyac3 (16) 12 years ago

Doing it all on your own means not getting help from anyone... not receiving any money from parents, ex's, to pay the bills once in a while... not receiving food stamps, medicaid, or heap (home heating fund) or going to the food cupboard at the local church to get food and clothing to supplement deficiencies. Not purchasing a home with the help of rural opportunities or one of the other low income agencies that offer prorated interest rates.... If you did make it on your own Kudo's too you.... Your a fighter... but that means you struggle to get by, and that isn't living

[-] 1 points by independentmind (227) 12 years ago

Please see my response(s) below to SwissMiss. I don't struggle. I budget. And I do just fine.

And no, I take money from no one. No gov't assistance of any kind, no handouts from Daddy, not even child support... although that may change soon.

Even the uber rich struggle occassionally, you know. You live to the extent or your means. Give everyone a base living wage of $15/hr and all of a sudden that won't be enough because people live to the maximum extent of that wage and cry for more.

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 12 years ago

You idea of living evidently is one of luxury. Who doesn't struggle. I am OK financially, but I still struggle and that stuggle sometimes is beyond my control. My property taxes have gone from $750.00 when I bought my home to $1,450 today, my utility bills are 3 times what they were a few years ago, my business is way down because of the economic climate in this country - and you probably would not see that as a struggle. It is really a struggle whether you are trying to get ahead in life or trying to maintain your ground. It is LIVING. Having it doled out to you with all the strings attached, in my opinion IS NOT LIVING - it is being led around by the chain around your neck.

But look at our society today and consider the number of people in your fantastic 99% who have that chain firmly locked around their neck.

[-] 2 points by spyac3 (16) 12 years ago

my comment was directed to the indeoendentmind who said they bought a home and raised a child on their own making $15 hr.. what I questioned is what is on your own? Im not in the lap of luxury far from it ... I am a 2 income family both of whom make ~38k a year, 2 children in college 1 in high school and own a home valued at slightly less then 100k pay over 4500.oo a year in taxes on that home and live in the northeast with inclement winter weather... if I were a single 1 person income with one child I would definitively need to seek some sort of assistance. now that aside I don't get anything "dooled" out to me I have been in the work force for 33 yrs and I honestly have to say my standard of living is much worst now then it was 10 yrs ago.. even then vacations were day trips or tent camping we had fun still do have fun... I merely am questioning how someone can say "they did it on their own" making $15 /hr of course the other side of that is maybe they work 60-70hrs a week... btw working 60 - 70 hrs a week thats not living either

[-] 1 points by independentmind (227) 12 years ago


37.5/hr work week.

$70K home.

It can be done. Honest. I won't ever live outside the city limits on this income, I won't ever drive a $20K car. But I can support myself and my son comfortably on this income. Just as a point of interest, I am currently budgeting to take him on a 5 day cruise for our next vacation.

[-] 1 points by SwissMiss (2435) from Ann Arbor Charter Township, MI 12 years ago

And the point is... you have to give up a lot to be able to do it, right? Is the city you live in dangerous? Sure, I could buy a $30,000 house in certain areas around me, but I choose not to fear for my life every day. I am buying a home on my own, but it would be a struggle if I made only $10 an hour just to pay rent, buy food, pay car insurance, and the other items that are necessities (not talking about cable, internet, phone, or anything else).

[-] 1 points by independentmind (227) 12 years ago

I bought a $70K house in a city that barely qualifies as a "city".

Danger is everywhere. But no, my small city is not specifically dangerous. My point was, taxes are cheaper inside the city limits... which is why I can't afford (yet) a home outside the city. Once my home appreciates some, though... I will sell it and my second home will be closer to my ideal house. Again. I will work for it. As every generation before me has done.

Yes. You make sacrifices for what you want. My parents did it for me and now I am doing it for my son. And the payoff is there. I do not live a difficult life, I do not go "without"... everything my son and I need is definitely there... and with a little foresight and planning, so is everything we want. In another few years, I will have more experience in my career which means more opportunity and ultimately more money (oh, and just another point of interest: I actually don't have a college degree but just got my fancy $1.50 raise because I am now the IT Tech at my place of work... from being a glorified secretary to IT... with nothing more than ambition and ability... sounds a little "American Dream-ish", no?).

Would I love for someone to just "give" me more money now? Sure. Who wouldn't. But if I don't earn it, I don't get the same sense of pride that I do now when I look at my modest (yet very nice) home, sensible (and 4yr old) car and know that I earned these things. Me. No one handed it to me therefore no one can decide to just arbitrarily take it away.

Which, I might add, is the risk you take when you start expecting the government to hand over for free what I have rightly earned for myself.

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 12 years ago

I can accept your information as fact - however, I would expect that your standard of living would be less today simply because you do have 2 children in college and 1 in high school. At one time we had 2 children in college and our standard of living went WAY down - today it has fully recovered since they are on their own with their own families.

Standard of living has as much to do with what you are gaining as with what you are spending. You are gaining two family members with college degrees and one who will have a high school diploma.

If you were simply standing still with NO GAIN, I could understand your post. But I cannot equate your lower standard with what it was when your children were in elementary school, etc.

Are you driving a car that is older today - if so, did you trade off that right to a new car for part of a college education, etc. This is not black and white as everyone tries to paint it.

For 30 years we built a business, put kids through college, and were willing to forego a needed remodel of our home - now it is done and our standard of living far exceeds what was EVIDENT during those times when we were investing in education and business. TODAY that business is fully paid for, operates six day a week, our kids are both employed, and we are fine. BUT this was a result of working hard and investing in what we thought was most important.

PS - we just got our first flat screen TV this last year and still drive a car that is 5 years old. SO you can see where our wealth really is.

[-] 1 points by SwissMiss (2435) from Ann Arbor Charter Township, MI 12 years ago

It's a fact that 20-30 years ago the average cost of a home was on average 2.5 times that of the average annual income. Before the housing bubble crash, houses on average were 5 times that of the average annual income. And that's not counting how much food, car gas, and other things go up constantly and at rapid paces. That has NOTHING to do with whether you have a kid in college or not.

[-] 1 points by ronjj (-241) 12 years ago

HEY - good to hear from you again.

I will have to disagree with you reagarding your findings . It has EVERYTHING to do with your distorted figures. If you cannot put this into apples to apples comparison, you have no basis for argument. You are comparing the Average Cost of a home without considering any determining factors. I can prove that the cost of a SQYD of fabric just trippled in price from the time I began writing this post to right now. I can prove that gas just went up 10cents per gallon a minute ago. I can prove that pork and beans just doubled in price actually wait a minute - just went up by 10 times. WOW, I cannot keep up with what is going on today.

[-] 2 points by SwissMiss (2435) from Ann Arbor Charter Township, MI 12 years ago

When did you make that $10 an hour and $15 an hour.... 10, 20, 30 years ago? $10 an hour today gets you NO WHERE. And $15 isn't much better. You act as if $15 an hour is an incredible amount of money. Give me a break. Someone possibly could buy a house on that amount, but that would mean not ever eating out, spending money on entertainment or anything extra. All money would go to the house and other basic living expenses.

Expecting people to make a good living on $10 or $15 an hour without struggling and without ever being able to do anything beyond paying basic living expenses is ridiculous. Yes, some people can find ways to live on that.... but that means living extremely frugally. Is that our goal? Is that what we want, while the elite (those who have gotten rich off the backs of everyone else without doing much) live like hogs off the land and control EVERYTHING?

THAT'S what this is about. How can we be a first-world nation if we expect people to be happy struggling on $10-$15 an hour while not having affordable healthcare and other things?

[-] 1 points by independentmind (227) 12 years ago

I made $10/hr 3 years ago. I made $15 up until 2 weeks ago. I bought my house a year and a half ago. Thanks, though.

I think "instant gratification" is an epidemic in this country. Patience, hard work and perseverance gets you what you want. And yes, a little frugality for a while. These are not bad things.

We eat out and take vacations... we don't have flat screen TV's or anything... but I have an iPhone, my son has his own cell, I drive a 4yo car, he has a PS3. It means he has to wait until b'days and Christmas for the newest, coolest games... but it does not mean he doesn't get them. It just means I have to budget for them.

There's a concept no one on this forum speaks of: budget.

Don't tell me it can't be done. I take no money from anyone, not even his father. I am not now, nor have I ever been, on any form of welfare. It CAN be done. I am living damned proof of it. I am so sick of this "$15/hr isn't a realistic income" BULLSHIT.

It's propaganda and nothing more. I lived just fine on $15/hr. And, for the record, only make $16.50 now.

Please. We are a 1st world nation because others are struggling (TRULY struggling) on $15 a freakin' week. We are a 1st world, arrogant, disliked nation because of what you just expressed in your arguments to me. What a spoiled, selfishly entitled country you must think we are....

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 12 years ago

Not intending to address the minimum wage issue - though I think there does need to be some age allowance for younger teens to work at a lower rate (parttime, training type, etc). A higher minimum wage across the board will simply mean that a lot of high school (in that range) young people will simply not be able to find work.

Maybe instead of dwelling constantly on the "elite" as your target, it would be wise to consider:

  1. We pay the top athletes millions because they know, have trained etc how to do what they do better than anyone else.
  2. We pay top draw actors fab amounts as rewards for doing what they do better than anyone else.
  3. We pay the best farmer in the country more (per acre) than other farmers because they know how to do what they do well and have moved up the ladder to be among the best.
  4. We pay the best educated-trained teachers more than the average.
  5. We pay the best Mom-Pop store operators more by buying more from them.
  6. We give scholarships to the best students.
  7. We pay special education teachers more than classroom teachers.
  8. Then there is the CEO. We can only condemn him-her for being better educated, better trained, and smarter at what they do. We do not isolate even the honest and dishonest our of this category to condemn - we just throw them all into the pile and blame them because we find them to be the handiest target and WANT their wealth, not everyone else's wealth- just theirs. How easy.....
[-] 1 points by SwissMiss (2435) from Ann Arbor Charter Township, MI 12 years ago

"Not intending to address the minimum wage issue - though I think there does need to be some age allowance for younger teens to work at a lower rate (parttime, training type, etc). A higher minimum wage across the board will simply mean that a lot of high school (in that range) young people will simply not be able to find work."

I agree with that.... but those who are trying to make a living need to be paid more than $8-$9 an hour with benefits. People expected them to be happy, productive, satisfied citizens on that amount of money.

I also train my ass off at what I do for a living..... through education.... paying for it myself and doing it while I work full time. Why don't I make millions a year for it like athletes do? Oh.... it's because I'm seen as a much lesser commodity than they are. Their masters can pay them millions upon millions to satisfy their (the masters') greed and need for power and control. This is the capitalism game. Why is my constant hard work and training in my career field unnoticed while people try to justify why pro athletes should get paid so much?

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 12 years ago

Hi again, again.

There is no clear cut - black and white arguement to the things that your propose which are all couched in the terms - compared to your own personal situation.

You may train your ass off today - so what?? That athlete probably started training and learned his/her skill many years before you even though of yours - As a high school football payer, I worked on farms during the summer to bulk muscle for years before I ever played a game in high school and even then, it was two-three years before I got significant play time, yet I was working my ass off all the time.

I figured if I could get enough play in high school to get into college and work my up to play time, then I would have the possibility of playing at the professional level, and EVEN THEN I realized that due to the nature of the game - the years of play time would be very limited (considering physical abilities, age, etc).

Same thing applys to a: military career, airline pilot, boxer, etc. Then we probably should not even talk about the job of President of the USA. Why does he get to work eight (8) or less at a pretty good salary and then fully retire??.

Turn around and look the other direction for a while - why do you get paid more than the janitor in the building where you work - he/she probably was sweeping floors and shoveling snow long before you even through of taking any job. Just doesn't seem fair to the janitor does it??

WHO ever said that the minimum wage was designed as a "make a living" standard. It was set up so that employers could not pay LESS than that amount. There is absolutely nothing from keeping them from paying MORE as far as I know.

All of this is the equivalent to saying " why is it fair to require the construction worker with a 3" shovel to dig a 6' deep ditch."

For whatever reason, all the you post centers around you as the pivotal point. That is not how life works and it not a fair way to praise or condenm any other person or system. Unless you can incorporate and consider more than that ONE variable, you will never be able to make your point and will have to resort to blaming it all on the capitalism game or someother factor that you determine as controlling your sole position.


[-] 0 points by JDub (218) 12 years ago

u got lucky, good for you. Doesnt mean everyone else will. Lets support us all to bring us up and out, not drag everyone else through the mud simply because you/we worked hard/got lucky. It does no one any good to make others suffer simply because we have.

[-] 1 points by independentmind (227) 12 years ago

Luck has nothing to do with it. I worked and saved for 10 years to get where I am today. 23yo college kids who whine and moan because they can't run out and buy a house 5 minutes after they graduate are not only unrealistic, but spoiled.

And if you think that isn't happening, you don't read enough on this forum.

I am all for working on the problems we have in this country. Getting the money out of politics, pressuring politicians to re-write tax codes, revamping the broken and abused welfare systems, mandating "not for profit" insurance companies.

I am not all for simply throwing money at people just because they breathe. How is that going to help the economy? How is that any different than throwing money at corporations for screwing up?

[-] 0 points by JDub (218) 12 years ago

well, its different in that corporations, if dead, are not a living breathing being. Honestly, i find it ridiculous that people who say they are "pro life" so often willing to let someone else starve or freeze simply because they are not part of their circle.

Although, i note, I am not implying I support a redistribution of wealth, just a removal of the idea that resources are not the property of all in a country, not just a few gentlemen/women in a back room. We should all profit from natural resources of our country, not just a few. And we should be rewarded(IE higher minimum wage, healthcare/daycare, free education, so on) for our contribution to society, not simply shat on because we don't have the connections or goals of others.

What all you that respond with this being about a redistribution of wealth need to realize, not all of us want money. I'm perfectly content with how much I make, and have no plan of trying to take anyone elses money, but damn me if I won't try to fight the idea that to work for a company is to be their slave while you on the clock. My company that i work for is more stringent on the following of policy towards its employees and yet ignores the binding Collective bargaining agreement over and over again. Where is the accountability in that???

Btw I own my own house, have for almost 4 years right now. So don't think that everyone that is on here is simply represented by the idea of spoiled frat brat.

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 12 years ago

And is your intent is to make the CEO and Corporations suffer so that you do not have too - what do you gain then. Somehow too may people have decided that the corporations now have the money that at one time we all thought the government had.

We could bust up all the wealth of this supposed cache and within a year, we would all be back for more. It might be there - but way too much of it is on paper - so how many shares of Mesa Airlines would you like to have???? At one time that was my wealth - today it is a sheet of paper. How about we all get a toaster or some other trinket from WalMart tomorrow and you can have the big box that the store used to be in. What do you plan to do with that?? Eat the vinyl off the floor??

[-] 2 points by JDub (218) 12 years ago

Ahh, you miss the point. The point is to set things equal. So a rich CEO or corporation does not get more of a say in how things are run than a hard working janitor. The point is to set up our government to support the people, not special interests. Corporations should serve the people, not the other way around. An entity that exists to only make money is a parasite on society, that brings nothing good to the table. Money alone is not the point. Security(not national bullshit security either) and piece of mind would be nice. Knowing that my children will have a beautiful world to explore because we didnt ruin it for cheaper oil would be nice. Seeing country working together for the betterment of man, not the enrichment of a fews wallets would be nice.

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 12 years ago

Hey JDub - hope you are having a great day. It is beautiful here in the SWest weather wise. Thanks for the reply post. So here is where I am coming from today:

  1. Let's get rid of the 99% vs the 1% to start with - that would be the first step towards the equality that you think is needed.

  2. If we cannot agree on this point, then we will let the division stand and we will be forced to work with each group separately.

  3. Taking the 1% first, they have pretty much perfected the equality thing so far as pay, bonsus, etc is concerned within each of their corporations (this being the only way that the 99% can seem to relate to them). The 1% within those corporations do share the wealth real well. The 1% stock holders get their share, sharing with the 1% CEO's at the top levels and actually, this seems to work out pretty well for them. I have not seen any protests, riots, camping out in front of the corporate offices etc. on their part - so I can only assume that everyone in the 1% is rather happy with their lot. I see that the heirs of Sam Walton (6, I thinkJ) are all up there in the top incomers - looks like they worked out a pretty good sharing arrangement after the death of Mr. Walton.

  4. Now we have to deal with the other group, the 99%. This is the group that sees all the problems - usually identified as originating within the 1%. I would agree that the 1% does have a disproportionate voice in things based simply on the fact that there are more janitors in the country than there are 1% CEOs. And when you discount the CEO's who are not rich, that span gets even wider. SO, here is where I connect to your Ahh, moment.......................

  5. Your intent seems to point to the fact that a janitor and a rich CEO should have equal say in how things are run. There can be no representation involved. The janitor cannot speak on behalf of other maintenance personnel and the CEO cannot speak on behalf of the corporation or the other people within the corporation. NO janitor, CEO, preacher,or any other entity such as a union, a homeowners association, etc., can speak on behalf of anyone else. What applies to the (1%) has to apply to the (99%) in order to reach equality. I would have no problem with that other than the logistics.

06.I agree that the government should be set up to support the people and not special interests. I also would advocate that every citizen in this country in one way or another represents a "special interest" and in that sense supporting the people would be supporting all the special interests (this may be part of our budget deficit problem today - but I digress).

  1. I also have no problem with corporations serving the people. We simply need more information here about who the "people" are. Are we talking about the employees within the corporation, the stockholders of the corporation, the customers of the products produced by the corporation, or all the others who do not have any part of the corporation and would boycott, protest etc. These are very distinctive groups and you post does not say which they should serve. If I were the CEO and had to balance the act of serving all the groups mentioned, I would want more than 145M$ in salary this year.

  2. I have a problem with not only the 1% what exists only to make money but also the 99% that do the same thing. I think we all have to be aware of the possibility of being ripped off by anyone or any entity within the 100%. I am sure that our state organization collecting funds for the Bev Order of Firefighters looks like a great organization and is definitely not a part of the 1% but they also pocket 80-90% of the funds collected and give about 10% to the cause. What good do they bring to the table other than hire a bunch of telemarketers for a week at a time. Excuse me, I just realized that we are here to attack the 1% and not the 99%.

  3. Let's put the 1% and the 99% back into the 100% again. Do you really think that security and peace of mind is a thing unique to the 1%. I would hate to be a CEO with the knowledge that I produce up to par and above or I am out the door - they don't exactly have anyone to cover their backs you know. And about that oil thing, when we stop consuming all that stuff, where in the world are the big corporations going to put all of it for storage- assuming that they will continue to produce it whether there is a demand or not.

  4. Now to our agreement - I fully support your statement that we should be seeing a country working together for the betterment of (ALL) man and not just a few. But drawing lines in the sand and separating into warring factions is not, in my opinion, the way to bring this to fruitition.

We are either in it all together or we simply keep our division as it exists 1% vs 99% with the full understanding that the 1% has the means to stand alone and the 99% is to cumbersome to remain intact. If this is to be our approach, count me in the 50% right under the 1%. Next week, we will further divide up the 99% until we get a caste system the likes of which the world has never known.

[-] 1 points by independentmind (227) 12 years ago

Love this post. A shame there are no replies.

[-] 1 points by sufinaga (513) 12 years ago

yes we must be honest with one another and stop all the pretense that we can live on nothing, on fresh air and be grateful. this is why we must have total SOLIDARITY with the unions. but to get there be need an honest system of property rights and not this present corrupt system run by the freemasons and the big landowners. we should name and shame them. he who has much will be embarassed. amassed riches are followed by heavy plundering. RIOTS and QUAKES!!!

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 12 years ago

You are so far out with your claims that I are going to get cold tonight. You may start with a little riot and leave the quakes to the really important One.

And that thing of plundering - what you planning to get that you didn't have a chance to get on Black Friday at a pretty good price - or are you one of the "shoppers" that thing you should get it free.

[-] 1 points by sufinaga (513) 12 years ago

jesus is the antichrist. we do not want your horror story of a human sacrifice, the zombie horror of rising from the dead and the cannibal horror of eating dead human flesh. you have been traumatised by reliving the crucifixion by predatory preachers. now you think you are saved and i am damned because i know you have been brainwashed into BS. cannabis is the tree of life and our holy communion. the end of cannabis prohibition is the RAPTURE! your alcohol communion is a chemical lobotomy. fishers of men are predators of men. the gospel is a snare to trap men. we wont get fooled again. how can a child sleep at night when told jesus died for his /her sins? how can you sleep at night after telling children jesus died for their sins? how can you sleep at night terrorising children with all these LIES and HORRORS? we must protect our children and our community from crucifixion merchants.

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 12 years ago

WOW - preach on woman, preach on

What you do or do not want really makes NO difference since we have the freedom to say, believe and think what we want. Even the God that I worship gives you that freedom whether you want it or not.

I fully respect your freedom to believe as you want and I do not want to take that freedom away from you - because if I do - then I would become just like you - not giving that freedom to anyone else.

You have your freedom - sorry that you feel that your beliefs cannot extend that same freedom to me. Preach on, preach on.

[-] 2 points by sufinaga (513) 12 years ago

there is a simple need to protect our children's minds from VIOLENT IMAGES. your barbaric religion fails that test. we see the EVIL INTENT behind the "gospel": the INTENT to brutalise and enslave. you believe jesus is the "only way" so you are claiming a monopoly on truth and control. therefore you are a threat to the community.

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 12 years ago

wooooooooooo. No you are totally wrong in your misguided and false assumption that I "believe jesus is the only way" I believe that Jesus is the only way for me and my life.

But you would even deny me that right to believe that way. You have to put all of your biases into my beliefs and thus condemn me for what I personally chose to believe.

See, your evaluation of my religion as a barbaric religion is your choice and you have every right to that choice and personal interpretation and you have the right to protect YOUR children from your interpretation whether I agree with it or not.

I would likewise hold your post up to my children and say "this you need to avoid at all costs" because I interpret you as being of anything other than the love I try to instill in my children. That does not make you a devil, violent, evil etc. It is merely my personal right exercised to interpret your post and beliefs within the context of my life.

I doubt that you see me as any more of a threat to your COMMUNITY than I see you as a threat to mine. We will each exercise our rights to protect our children as we determine necessary. The only real difference is this: "In order to protect your children, you have to create a monster in their minds to protect them from, you have done this and you are now the saviour of your children from that moster."

"In order to protect my children, I do not have to create a monster in their minds. They know what love, peace, tolerance, acceptance, sacrifice, and the extra mile and freedom are. That is what they look for on their own and interpret on their own.

That is the great difference in our ways of thinking. You chose to create a monster to war against, I chose to create an understanding of who Jesus is and what he taught and that is what they look for in determining what is good or evil in their lives.

Good luck in your continuing battle against your monster. Continue loving your children as I am sure you do - but please do not let your battle become theirs.

[-] 2 points by sufinaga (513) 12 years ago

we know your game! christianity is a business, a pyramid selling scheme. conversion is bullying into the fear of death. then the "speaking with authority" to lord it over others and recruit them to your community. then in your " community" the obsessive repetion of the bullying, reliving the crucifixion. this is BAD MENTAL HEALTH. we must protect our community from your predatory behaviour: preaching the gospel is predatory behaviour, preaching christ crucified is bullying.

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 12 years ago

sufinaga - good afternoon, I hope that your day is going well for you and your children.

It is a beatiful day here in the southwest, even the birds are out singing today, and I will be planting tulips later on this afternoon. We are expecting more moisture later on in the week. If things go like this for another month or so, we will for the most part be recovering from the drought that has plagued this area for the past year or so.

I have been reading a great book that my wife gave me and it has been keeping me up later than usual at night - the points made in that book just keep running though my head and to me that is a good book to be reading. It is much more about love than hate and is basically asking questions about what has failed us leading up to our status as adults. Great read for me at least - sometimes I get to the point where it looks like the bad things are about to overwhelm the good - and a reevaluation always helps me.

My wife and I had took time to attend our church last night and enjoyed the music, preaching and fellowship. It was a period of renewal for both of us - something that we look forward to every week. It really does represent our "community" as you point out so well in your post. These are our friends and people that we have no second thoughts about calling them our friends and family. It by no means is exclusive. We fully realize that we are all humans just like everyone else on this planet - and for us, this refreshing is essential to our way of life. We were not born any different from anyone else, we did not grow up any differently and as adults we came through the same trials as everyone else did. We had children like others, we had to work, rake leaves, etc just like the neighbors did. We say good morning and mean it just like all of our neighbors do. We are there for them and they are there for us. Religion does not control our relationships with each other - our neighbors are Catholics, Baptists, Atheists, Independents, and some do not practice any religion. We have a commonality that we are neighbors, we like and respect each other and actually get along quite well.

It was a great honor to be invited to a dinner at the home of our State Representative last week. He is catholic is it makes any difference to anyone reading this, but his other 15 guests were from all backgounds and ways of life. It was a great evening or talking, sharing our past experiences, and fellowship.

Well, I have probably bored you enough with my doings. What have you been up to lately? Love to hear back from you.

[-] 1 points by sufinaga (513) 12 years ago

yes indeed it is a joyous time celebrating the solstice, the rebirth of the Sun of God! yes indeed just as in the time of Noah your community is planning its continuance and renewal. the big lie is the job creation! but that is the only way you can keep the young people in the darkness of ignorance. mass unemployment is here to stay. there shall be no more curse! the police stop and frisk is to fight cannabis. cannabis is growing in the midst of the street (inside the houses!) and on either side of the river (on both sides of the tracks, in all classes of society) the end of cannabis prohibition is the RAPTURE. our young people need land for homes. we are here to end the fascist tyranny of the police and property rights. we are here to take our freedom and our land back. we have been brutalised by 2000 years of christian psychopathic violence. we are the poor, unemployed and homeless. the tyranny of christianity and freemasonry is finished. we are the meek who shall inherit the earth! who is that Invisible One who sees through my eyes?

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 12 years ago

I know one when I see or hear from one. Have a good smoke and then crawl back into your winter home.

[-] 1 points by sufinaga (513) 12 years ago

Luke 16 v26

[-] 2 points by TheScreamingHead (239) 12 years ago

Support Occupy Christmas by getting money out of big business so none of these politicians will have incentive to pass bills like NDAA.


[-] 2 points by independentmind (227) 12 years ago

I've been waiting to see if Occupy was ever going to even mention this.

Your timing and focus are a little strange to me, I must admit.

[-] 2 points by Edwin (47) from Anseong-si, Gyeonggi-do 12 years ago

I can't believe Congress has become so thoroughly rotten. (Or, maybe I can!!)

[-] 2 points by jesseg (3) 12 years ago

The indented portion above seems like it might be a quotation. Is it? From where? I am deeply curious what concrete sources are available that back up these claims. In particular, which antiwar activists had their homes raided? Now that NDAA has passed, and visibility is high, it seems important to me to include the sources of claims of abuse.

[-] 2 points by DemocraticCredit (37) 12 years ago

The Bill of Rights need include the individual sovereign right to create credit.

Without this right, those who control it, also control you, the individual.

Should you be surprised that your rights are under attack by those who control the power to create credit.

Have you not been warned by past Presidents that the power to control credit is STRONGER, MORE POWERFUL, THAN STANDING ARMIES.

Rather than embrass the need for knowledge and truth, the American people honour ignorance and the persuit of superficial wants.

[-] 1 points by IslandActivist (191) from Keaau, HI 12 years ago

We should have had a second bill of rights. Now we won't have a bill of rights. This reminds me of the book "The Handmaid's Tale" by Margaret Atwood. This book predicted the 9/11 attacks and then the destruction of our bill of rights. Although to be accurate, the book was retelling a different version of Hitler's dictatorship. We're going to become worse than Germany during Hitler's reign.

[-] 1 points by TrevorMnemonic (5827) 12 years ago

I found out recently that this already happened in 2006 with the Military Commission Act, HR 6166.


[-] 1 points by Windsofchange (1044) 12 years ago

Things will only get worse if we ignore this, so please don't make this a side issue. This is critical.

[-] 1 points by Dreski (10) 12 years ago

There Must Be A Balance !!! We must have the authority to preemptively neutralize any terrorist attacks against innocent human beings . The question becomes who are the Terrorist? Are law abiding protesters on the Hit List? The definition of a terrorist is subjective! Who or What is the real Threat to our security? Take the money out of lobbyist/special interest hands and you will have Destroyed 99% of the Real Terrorist Power -Agalnst Innocent Americans!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Human interest before Special Interest !!! Its Not the people that are the real threat its the Laws by those Lawmakers that are controlled by the "Special interest" who are the True Terrorist!!!!!! Human interest before Special Interest!!!!!! First things first America we Must Occupy Our Hearts and Our Families First Then and only then can we truly defeat the Terrorist

[-] 1 points by jk1234 (257) 12 years ago

Thank you OWS.

Also, here is a good article on the above.

Is This How Liberty Dies?: http://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=199397

[-] 1 points by deejay (7) 12 years ago

How about protesting the Patriot Act? It was passed under Bush and took away civil liberties. Even if you protest this new Act, the Patriot Act is still actively being carried out.

[-] 1 points by StevenRoyal (490) from Dania Beach, FL 12 years ago


[-] 1 points by watermargin (1) 12 years ago

Obama recently praised PM Najib of Malaysia being a moderate and model Muslim country but practices the Internal Security Act (ISA) indefinite detention without trial.

Malaysia is a Nation that practices Apartheid and its leaders both in government & opposition- ala USA- are the most corrupted in the world.

With the terror act in place, good luck to Americans.

For our future & our children's future, it's worth to Occupy.. every dime!

[-] 1 points by kickthemout (83) 12 years ago

[-] ronjj 1 points 39 minutes ago

We could resolve this little problem that you blow way out of proportion. Since Osama is dead, why don't we just pick a big skyscraper in one of our cities and blow it up ourselves, then another and then another. Would that take your mind off binladen for a few months and help you get over your sad state.

This is the way uncivilized,violent,barbarian people think. We, Whites, don't reason that way.

[-] 1 points by kickthemout (83) 12 years ago

[-] xxcONScIENcExx 16 points 1 day ago

This is it. There is nothing more disturbing than the deconstruction of OUR Bill of Rights. All Americans should be on high alert as to how this unfolds. ↥like ↧dislike reply permalink

Hey pal! When my forefathers wrote the U.S. Constitution and the additional Amendment to the Constitution (known as Bill of Rights) they wrote for me and all the other White Americans and not for you, the non-Europeans. In fact for about 450 years Whites never allowed non-Whites/non-Europeans into this Country. It should have remained that way.

[-] 1 points by kickthemout (83) 12 years ago

Please,please, we don't need to have this movement infiltrated by Muslims. This is our movement and we have to move forward with our plans and not be sidetracked by infiltrators who have their minds on something else.

[-] 1 points by Duffminster (4) 12 years ago

Hey people. You should also know about this attempt to crush resistance and freedom of Speech. The article if from Washington's Blog and is entitled: "America’s Future: Russia and China Use Copyright Laws to Crush Government Criticism"

You can read about it at : http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2011/12/americas-future-russians-and-chinese-use-copyright-crusade-to-crush-government-criticism.html

Duffminster http://www.duffminster.com/times "Putting the Truth and Needs of Citizens First. Writing for Freedom, Liberty, Justice and the Real America."

[-] 1 points by Jim1108 (2) 12 years ago

Take the food stamps, welfare, free cell phones, free baby supplies, housing, etc, etc away and that would be a start. Quit meddling with other countries affairs and worry about ours.

The president, senators, and congressmen from the federal government on down to the state level need to live by the rules they dictate to us-they don't. They have their own medical, retirement, and perks, yet they make the laws we and not them have to comply with.

Direct your anger at Washignton, it all starts there.

[-] 1 points by GeorgeVreelandHill (7) 12 years ago

Occupy Wall Street needs to shut its stupid mouth. How dare they count every person in the ninety-nine percent they talk about as in with them. They do not have a right to speak for me. I like the rich. Many of them started with nothing or almost nothing. Steve Jobs and countless others became VERY rich after being very poor. They did not complain. They had ideas and went with them. The top one percent creates jobs. Our companies, stores, firms and on and on that employ millions were not started by poor people. They were started by the wealthy. Now, OWS states that the rich are our enemy. Great, go against those who create so much. Occupy Wall Street has got to be the most stupid bunch of idiots to ever band together. They have no real clue as to what they are doing. In Los Angeles, they accomplished nothing and left a mess that cost the city a lot of money. In Seattle, OWS blocked docks and tried to prevent people from going to work. Yet, they claim they want people to go to work. The entire Occupy movement is a joke. They talk for the entire ninety-nine percent, but of those ninety-nine percent of the people, about ninety percent are working. I live in Beverly Hills and I'm doing fine. I don't need Occupy Wall Street to tell me what to do.

George Vreeland Hill

[-] 1 points by oddgrrrl (28) 12 years ago

Please Call President Obama Friday Dec 16th at #202-456-1111/or 202-456-1414> Ask President Obama to VETO the National Defense Authorization Act ( Indefinite Detention Bill) Due to the Fact that Sec 1031-2 directly violate the bill of rights! Indefinite Detention-No trial- Military personnel to engage in domestic law enforcement…. And/or Email Obama and Bidden @ http://www.whitehouse.gov/contact/

NDAA Info>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Defense_Authorization_Act/ (Section 1031 allows for the indefinite detention of U.S. citizens... without a trial)

REMEMBER: Dept of Defense categorizes PROTESTS IN THE US as "low-level terrorism" http://bit.ly/uESNsD & (PDF) http://bit.ly/qaF3a1

The National Defense Authorization Act Pay particular attention to pg 359-364; Sec 1031-2.>http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/BILLS-112s1867pcs/pdf/BILLS-112s1867pcs.pdf

The ACLU says that the NDAA 2012 (NDAA) authorizes presidents to have power of dictators: “to order the military to pick up and imprison people, including U.S. citizens, without charging them or putting them on trial.”


Protect our Bill of Rights because the Bill of Rights can not protect itself! Contact the Prez, sign the petitions, call congress and Oppose the The National DEFENSE AUTHORIZATION ACT and Oppose SOPA (Stop Online Piracy Act) and PIPA Protect-IP Act! PROTECT FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION by opposing SOPA and PIPA!

http://stopcensorship.org/ Urge lawmakers to vote against SOPA and PIPA : Call Congress-ACT NOW! http://americancensorship.org/

Need more Convincing? http://current.com/shows/the-young-turks/videos/cenk-we-were-supposed-to-get-change-not-defense-authorization-act-stripping-civil-liberties



[-] 1 points by cristianty (1) from Belleville, NJ 12 years ago

This bill will become law and they will start calling ALL members of OWS and affiliates terrorist. The word terrorist is so open ended.... it really depends who your asking. I think the 1% are global terrorist but they own our government so what happens when they start calling 99% terrorist? They will start filling those Fema camps with all of us. This is the start to something that is going to end horrid.

[-] 1 points by Farmingirl (1) 12 years ago

It is true that if you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything! Dr Ron voted "no" for indefinite detention. He has integrity and intellectual honesty beyond question!

[-] 1 points by jesseg (3) 12 years ago

Which "recent raids on homes of antiwar activists" is the writer referring to?

[-] 1 points by SayNO2GovInc (99) 12 years ago

"The power of the Executive to cast a man into prison without formulating any charge known to the law, and particularly to deny him the judgment of his peers, is in the highest degree odious and is the foundation of all totalitarian government whether Nazi or Communist." -

  • Winston Churchill

So it is done. Congress passed repeal of the Constitution w/nary a shiver. You know all that bullshit at the start of the current session about Republicans reading aloud the constitution and the Bill of Rights? What a crock of shit!
Obama proclaimed Human Rights Day, Bill of Rights Day and Human Rights Week as they continue to shred them as they've been doing for the past ten years. It should be no surprise that Obama backed off his veto when he got more power like he wanted and indefinite detention for all because that is what he requested. The hypocrisy of a Constitutional lawyer doing so while being the leader of a nation on the anniversary of the signing of the Bill of Rights is typical of this fascist regime. ~

'Permanent Martial Law - NO Due Process for Americans in America', http://saynotocorporateamerica.blogspot.com/2011/12/permanent-martial-law-no-due-process.html ~

'Proof Obama will sign NDAA 1031 Citizen Imprisonment Law' http://saynotocorporateamerica.blogspot.com/2011/12/proof-obama-will-sign-ndaa-1031-citizen.html ~

It is hard to find any good in this sad stream of events, but awareness is growing and this certainly gives us more reason to unite and Occupy Our Rights! Peace

[-] 1 points by OWSMusic (57) 12 years ago

A song for the banksters on Wall Street... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FM3KR9dEOk

[-] 1 points by Cobra302 (2) 12 years ago

What, the sheeple have awaken?

[-] 1 points by Cobra302 (2) 12 years ago

This is un constitutional. We have become a third world banana republic where dark suited men can show up at the middle of the night and haul us or our loved ones away. We are under martial law. The "war on terror" will never end. The military industrial complex feeds at the troughs of the tax payers.

[-] 1 points by lpselite (4) from New York, NY 12 years ago

All I can say is WOW!!!! How did we get to this point as a nation? I am disturbed but not scared. For though I walk through the Valley of the Shadow of Death, I will fear no evil!!!!!!

[-] 1 points by sufinaga (513) 12 years ago

we must beware of associating ourselves with external organisations, run by men seeking to recruit from among us! child protection will destroy christianity just as surely as womens liberation will destroy islam. both are external tyrannies! both are BS!

[-] 1 points by OccupyCentre (263) 12 years ago

Very frightening indeed. Unfortunately there has been so much anti-Islamic hype on the TV. The journalists have a lot to answer for. After the banking execs have been sorted, we may have to investigate what the journalists have been up to.

[-] 1 points by erleerog (2) 12 years ago


TEXT from the FINAL NDAA Bill:

"DETAINEES—The FY12 NDAA includes critical provisions to clarify and reaffirm the military’s responsibility and authority to detain al Qaeda terrorists. Ten years after September 11, 2001, the extremist and terrorist threat against the United States and our allies continues to evolve. As we begin drawing down forces in Afghanistan, and conscious of the rise of rise of al Qaeda affiliates in places like Yemen, the FY12 NDAA recognizes that the war against terrorism and violent extremism is broader than operations in any one country. The bill strengthens policies and procedures used to detain, interrogate, and prosecute al Qaeda, the Taliban, affiliated groups, and those who substantially support them.

The Conferees balance this approach with the conviction that the erosion of citizens’ civil liberties in the pursuit of security constitutes a victory by the enemy. To that end, these provisions do not extend any new authorities to detain U.S. citizens and explicitly exempt U.S. citizens from provisions related to military custody of terrorists. The FY 12 NDAA:

Prohibits the transfer or release of Guantanamo detainees to or within the United States.Prohibits the use of funds to house Guantanamo detainees in the United States. *Reaffirms the lawful detention of individuals from al Qaeda, the Taliban, and associated forces engaged in armed conflict with the United States, without extending new authority to detain U.S. citizens."

[-] 1 points by Wench (1) from Albuquerque, NM 12 years ago

Join the effort. Stand up and make a difference!

[-] 1 points by pork (8) from New York, NY 12 years ago

does anyone know who in ows helped plan this? i'd really like to talk to them. :)

[-] 1 points by Agent420 (1) 12 years ago

I wonder if Canada is accepting refugees from the United States?

[-] 1 points by TwistedPremise (1) 12 years ago

Imagine if the axiom "Know your rights!" served only to remind us that we no longer have any !

[-] 1 points by kogonon (3) from San Antonio, TX 12 years ago

And one night they came for me too...

[-] 1 points by laneamala (1) 12 years ago

When is this happening? Time is not listed.

[-] 1 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 12 years ago

Democratic Sen. Carl Levin and Republican Sen. John McCain

so, can't we sue to block implementation of the provisions in this spending bill that would allow for indefinite detention?

and why can't we have these two senators charged with sedition?

[-] 1 points by debbierl (72) from Adams, MA 12 years ago
[-] 1 points by Windsofchange (1044) 12 years ago

Oh, darn, I just got on the computer and saw this. Thank you for addressing this very troubling bill soon to become a law. I have been on the site for two weeks sounding the alarm off on this. Could you organize a few more protests/marches and let us know at least a day in advance so more people could turn up. Thanks.

This is something that absolutely can't be ignored and it will not only affect the muslim communities, but all Americans. DHS's 2009 list of a Domestic Terrorist profile is just crazy. Millions of Americans could fit that profile. It is just too broad. We need to get out there and protest like never before. Mark my words, there will probably be another awful piece of legislation coming out in the near future that says that protestors and protesting are terrorist who engage in terrorist like activities. Some may say that this is absurd, but in the wake of this awful bill on the verge of becoming a law--anything is possible.

[-] 1 points by jomojo (562) 12 years ago

I think that calling our country a two party system is a stretch. The rep&dem has united into one big INJUSTICE PARTY. I just looked at Rocky Anderson's Wiki page. (Justice Party Presidential candidate).

[-] 1 points by PeoplehaveDNA (305) 12 years ago

Please bring more attention to this OWS this is very important.

[-] 1 points by murdamayan (1) 12 years ago

Now Im on the same page with the OWS. This is the reason why gov't & big business get away with crimes. They are slowly taking away our rights. This needs to be the message. Its time to mobolize with a central message. Lets bring back power to the people.

[-] 1 points by TheScreamingHead (239) 12 years ago
[-] 1 points by sadbuttrue (1) 12 years ago

Occupy China: Wukan

Horrible story for the town of Wukan. 10,000 residents under siege in rural China because the authorities have given away the people’s farmland to developers and the villagers are protesting. Their leader, Xue Jinbo, died in police custody. Just a reminder that the 1% in China are ruthless autocrats who care nothing for the lot in life of the 99% except for using them as beasts of burden in the further accumulation of riches and power.

Wait, what?


[-] 1 points by RufusJFisk52 (259) 12 years ago

well, i see no choice but to vote Ron Lawl now.

[-] 1 points by dusetdarammarjane (3) from Secaucus, NJ 12 years ago

This needed to be up two weeks ago, y'all got a powerful format here, time to speed the fuck up.

[-] 2 points by independentmind (227) 12 years ago

Amen. I said the same thing... but I can't seem to locate that comment now. Odd.

[-] 1 points by SwissMiss (2435) from Ann Arbor Charter Township, MI 12 years ago

Be ready.... the "officials" probably are watching this site as we speak.

[-] 1 points by SwissMiss (2435) from Ann Arbor Charter Township, MI 12 years ago

If this doesn't fuel this movement more, I don't know what will. This nation is so two-faced and has been since its inception.... and it's getting worse.

[-] 1 points by zoom6000 (430) from St Petersburg, FL 12 years ago

Again behind close doors,Republican agreed to pass $662 billion for defense bill., in return they had democrats senates to agree on bury the Bill of Rights. .,win win for Republican

[-] 1 points by danboy (2) 12 years ago

In addition to recognizing the anniversary of the signing of our nation's Bill of Rights, the Occupy Movement should also consider commemorating the event that made it possible - a protest nearly 20 years earlier to the day. This Friday is the 238th ANNIVERSARY OF THE BOSTON TEA PARTY PROTEST on December 16, 1773. It was a protest against the British central government and the monopolistic East India Company that controlled all the tea imported into the colonies. It was the culmination of a resistance movement throughout British America against the Tea Act, which had been passed by the British Parliament in 1773. After government officials in Boston refused to return three shiploads of taxed tea to Britain, a group of colonists boarded the ships and destroyed the tea by throwing it into Boston Harbor. Colonists objected to the Tea Act because they believed that it violated their right to be taxed only by their own elected representatives. The movement was not so much about taxes, per se, but about the people's lack of a voice in the political process. "NO taxation without REPRESENTATION" was the battle cry. The incident remains an iconic event of American history, and other political protests often refer to it.

Our legislators in Washington ought to consider the lessons of history as they vote on bills to extend the federal payroll tax breaks and ponder the larger issue of whether to support an economy based on luxury for a few or prosperity for all.

NOTE: The old South Meeting House webpage states, "Since the 1773 mass protest meetings that led to the Boston Tea Party, Old South Meeting House has served as a gathering place for discussion and celebration and a haven for free speech."

Media coverage of a commemoration by Occupy would increase awareness of the movement's link to America's earliest acts of civil disobedience in service of the public good. Maybe someone in touch with OCCUPY BOSTON could remind them of tomorrow's significance?

[-] 1 points by FrogWithWings (1367) 12 years ago

You have to read the fine print. Congress really is trying NOT to blatantly alert all to the fact you actually have given implied consent to waive your rights, under DC's 1871 Constitution and accept them as granted and revokable privileges.

Furthermore, the United States Supreme Court has clearly agreed that the pre-1871 Constitution and it's actual Democratic Government has never been abolished and sits idle with empty seats.

Anyhow, that is the government for the people, not of the people, and the one which makes no attempt to deny any rights.

You're going about this backwards instead of going straight to the root of the real problem.

Good luck

[-] 1 points by JimSmitherman (3) 12 years ago

This site I see has gone communist. Banning the free exchange of ideas. I did not insult anyone in chat. As a matter of fact, the guy who banned me agreed with me - but actually kicked me off the forum before I even finished my thoughts, then banned me before I could again let him / her know that I thought the same way. Does not matter. Fix your own problems first. Support free speech or just get off the net. Have a good day.

[-] 1 points by koalagreen (6) 12 years ago

Thanks "Occupywallst.org" affinity group. Yes there are indeed many

defenders of the Bill of Rights, and they begin within our OWN movement.

Why are you disregarding them and their work?

[-] 1 points by koalagreen (6) 12 years ago

Thanks "Occupywallst.org" affinity group. Yes there are indeed many defenders of the Bill of Rights, and they begin within our OWN movement. Why are you disregarding them and their work?

[-] 1 points by economicallydiscardedcitizen (761) 12 years ago

Everybody: The White House Will Not Veto the Defense Bill! Hang or March with the American flag flying upside down: this is the national distress signal! http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/white-house-issues-statement-saying-it-will-not-veto-defense-bill/2011/12/14/gIQApu7PuO_story.html?fb_ref=NetworkNews

White House issues statement saying it will not veto defense bill

[-] 1 points by Mirako (1) 12 years ago

NDAA just passed by Congress allows indefinite incarceration of US Citizens on mere suspicion--just someone accusing someone of terrorism. That means no "innocence until proven guilty", no chance to hear and confront accusing witnesses, no trial to prove innocence--just lock up--like in China! A veto by the President is our last hope to preserve constitutionally protected freedom. Why are we not in the streets about this? Anyone?

[-] 0 points by economicallydiscardedcitizen (761) 12 years ago

It amazes me that mainstream media is silent while OWS has made and is in the process of mobilizing demonstrations.

Begin to display and march with American Flags in Upside Down Position: It is the sign for National Distress!

[-] 1 points by TrevorMnemonic (5827) 12 years ago

Links to this piece please

"The refusal of the Chicago city government and the federal government to allow for peaceful protests when NATO and the G8 countries come to Chicago in May, 2012 to hold summit meetings."

[-] 0 points by FrogWithWings (1367) 12 years ago

The UN and NATO call the shots across the globe and do own/run the United States.

Even our local police forces no longer fly our flag on their uniforms, but instead, you'll notice a patch looking very NATO'ish on their shoulders since the turn of the century.

[-] 1 points by pork (8) from New York, NY 12 years ago

does anyone know who's organizing this? i mean from ows. it just says "activists."

[-] 2 points by koalagreen (6) 12 years ago

good question

[-] 0 points by vets74 (344) from New York, NY 12 years ago

More to the point is finding the protest site for newbies. Foley Square is a couple blocks north of City Hall, which is a five minute walk north and a bit east of Zuccotti Park.

If you know where Zuccotti Park is, look up Broadway and you'll see it to the right.

Subway is the easier travel mode. I take the A train to Chambers Street. The N,R, 1, 2, 4, 5, 6 have City Hall and Chambers Street stops as well. There are five stops within easy walking distance.

Y'all come !!

[-] 0 points by ironboltbruce (371) from Miami, FL 12 years ago

When does OWS plan to take actions could actually make a significant difference here? Like this one:

Call to Action! Hire an attorney or use NaSI SARs to charge your U.S. Representative and Senators who voted for the National Defense Authorization Act of 2012 (NDAA: S.1867/H.R.1540) with "Seditious Conspiracy" under U.S. Code Title 18 Part I Chapter 115 Section 2384. Details here: http://KleptocracyChronicles.com

[-] 0 points by RussellFeingold (55) 12 years ago

The Frankenstein monster that the USA unleashed on the 3rd world has now turned on its Creators.

[-] 0 points by ChristopherABrownART5 (46) from Santa Barbara, CA 12 years ago

Defend the Constitution, **Article 5 NOW!

Article 5 is the only way to defend the Bill of Rights.

Article 5 is a right which comes before anything in the Bill of Rights. When Article 5 is needed, and it is not used, there is every chance there will be no more rights.

Lessig power point on article V http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gpbfY-atMk

Lots of facts here about Article V. http://algoxy.com/poly/article_v_convention.html

Article V conference, Lawrence Lessig at harvard 9/25/11-other attendee video comments http://vimeo.com/31464745

Just the preparation for proper general amendment proposal, or the conditions needed in order for the convention to have full constitutional intent, will be wonderful things. Article 5 is the ultimate form of democracy, democracy depends on information, information depends on media, media does not give vital information.

This message board has a poll and state by state forums for Americans who understand that Article 5 is the last chance to preserve rights and freedoms. The poll determines if people think that citizens need full information and secure voting systems also free of corporate finance BEFORE conducting an Article 5 convention.

Preparatory amendment.



[-] 0 points by USCitizenVoter (720) 12 years ago

Our world is changing and there is nothing that can be done about it.