Welcome login | signup
Language en es fr
We are the 99 percent

Debt Strangles the 99%

Posted 9 years ago on March 24, 2013, 1:09 p.m. EST by OccupyWallSt
Tags: debt, strikedebt

76% of Americans are in debt. 15% are being pursued by one or more debt collectors. 22% of Americans are too impoverished to qualify for credit. That forces them into informal debt like payday loans or worse, which generate interest rates of up to 500%. So add that together and we have the 99%.

62% of bankruptcies

Strike Debt and the Rolling Jubilee believe that no one should have to go into debt to cover basic human rights like health care, education, and housing. One in seven Americans is being pursued by a debt collector. Credit card debt is often the “plastic safety net” that covers for gaps in household budgets caused by financing such essentials.

Medical debt is an area of personal debt that no one from outside the United States can even understand. Spanish activists are campaigning against the privitization of their national single-payer health system. They see any payment for medical treatment as the breakdown of a decent society. The idea that people might be driven to bankruptcy by medical debt is literally incomprehensible.

But in the United States, we find that no less than 62% of all bankruptcies involve medical debt. Of these people, three-quarters actually had medical insurance. So many drugs and procedures are not covered, and so high are the deductibles, that an insured person can easily find themselves unable to cover their medical bills. Two-thirds of working households do not have the resources to cover a $1000 emergency. One hour of a specialist doctor’s time can cost that alone.

Even these stark figures conceal the discrimination built into health care for people of color, low-income workers and LGBTQ populations. More than half of African-Americans struggle to pay medical bills, compared with 34% of Hispanics and 28% of whites. Black and Latino New Yorkers are more than twice as likely as whites to be uninsured. Despite some progress in recent years, LGBT individuals are less likely to have health insurance, more likely to delay seeking medical care and medication, and more likely to have a number of physical and mental health problems.

The uninsured and the poor receive poorer quality care in different locations, at different times, and by less trained physicians than those who are privately insured.

Unfortunately, the Affordable Health Care Act (aka Obamacare) will not address most of these problems. It will certainly raise access—to expensive “under-insurance” plans with high deductibles and lots of out-of-pocket costs.

Strike Debt believes that health care that covers all a person’s needs is not a “Cadillac” plan but a human right. Such human rights should not be limited to top executives and members of Congress, who award themselves 100% health care coverage. No one should be driven into bankruptcy by an accident or an illness. In much of the developed world, these sentiments are just common sense. It’s a measure of how reactionary neo-liberalism has become in the United States that they are received here as radical.

“Life or Debt” is the choice we are offered. We refuse. Strike Debt. You are not a loan.



Read the Rules
[-] 5 points by Gillian (1842) 9 years ago

Such an alarming issue that needs to be addressed by all Americans ASAP..Mayday Mayday!

75 percent of the 62% of medical bankruptcies were insured!!! Unacceptable on any level.

It's been 13 years since I last had health insurance and I have not missed it ( thank goodness for good health) at all. However, in prep for Obamacare, I decided to shop around and check out my options and familiarize myself with the insurance and medical industries.

What a nightmare it was. After 2 solid days of shopping around with all the popular insurance companies, I felt as though I was about to suffer a stroke or heart attack- literally. I was gulping Bach's Rescue Remedy at a rate of 1.5 bottles per day.

Here's a brief accounting of my experience. Hope it helps to enlighten those who are considering purchasing and those who are already ' covered':

I was so blown away by the lack of ' guaranteed' coverage and the low coverage for most health issues despite a hefty monthly premium with a mid-to high deductible ( 250-1200). The language is vague and there are too many loopholes, too many exclusions. I began to realize that there was absolutely no guarantee of coverage except for a colonoscopy or pap smear. But even that had its exclusions. I presented several different sickness scenarios and asked them to tell me very specifically what the insurance would cover and what it wouldn't and how much I would have to pay and when. I kept demanding ALL the facts. I asked about a.broken leg, glass in eye, shingles, heart attack, stroke, cancer, emergency room visits, if you can name it, I covered it!

My insurance would cost me around 350-400/month with the 500 deductible and around 299/mo with a 1200 deductible. I noticed to that the price all depends on where you live, if you own or rent, property values in your neighborhood etc.. They explained that those living near highways must pay more, those who rent pay more, those who earn less pay more because they suffer from poor physical and mental health more often and they check the health of those living in my region. Each region is rated. This really angered me.

I wanted to see just how effective the insurance would be in real-time action so I called a few doctors offices to make an appt for a checkup and inquire about how insurance would work in their office and was told by 3 different doctors that the first visit which was considered a wellness checkup would be free. However, if the doctor finds anything at all abnormal like a sore throat or a lump in the breast or an ear infection, then he must charge for another visit that same day ( even though I'm already there!) which would be at least 300 dollars to be applied toward my deductible which meant that I would spend approx. 400 that month on my premium and then another 300 for the additional consultation and or medicine/treatment. Additionally, I must pay in advance with a credit card and that the doctor will not treat me until I pay. SO, if I were to choose a plan with let's say 3 visits a year, I would blow two of them in one day/one visit. When my insurance company mentioned the 3 visits per year plan, I thought, ' Oh, that would work for me..I haven't seen a doctor in many years '. WRONG!

After spending two days on this shopping adventure, I finally gave up and decided to decline any coverage. I wondered just how many Americans are aware of all the fine print in their policies. More than likely, I would end up bankrupt if something major occurred whether I had insurance or not. I don't need monthly or daily medication, so it seems rather ridiculous for me to pay out almost 400 a month just to protect myself from a major catastrophe that would be addressed in an emergency room with or without insurance.

Within only a few days of making these calls, I received at least 20 letters from insurance companies and medical companies offering prescription cards, life insurance and more. Obviously, they sold my information to other companies. Oh and because they put a credit inquiry on my credit report , I've been harassed daily with numerous phone calls from my bankcard companies with friendly payment reminders ( not delinquent) and a call from VW asking me if I want to refinance my car. I'm probably more sensitive about this type of intrusion than most people are but this sincerely gives me the creeps knowing that I can't make a private inquiry about anything without my personal finances being exposed and sold to corporate America.

[-] 2 points by Middleaged (5140) 9 years ago

My read: You are a warrior. You are disciplined and intuitive.

You know my Mortgage company went bankrupt and finally they sold my mortgage to a debt collector... It is funny that the heat was turned up on my credit cards and then... I have been using my health insurance a little.

I totally don't like corporations and government ... in the end it is a decision to submit to control ...or take control to block out corporations.

I hate junk mail. I don't think I will ever actually buy a service or product from a junk mailer... maybe I have... but I still hate them. And .... of course we all have to delete our web searches and web history.

I clicked on a website recently to check news ... I got like 450 outgoing connections in my computer.

That is probably scripts that support advertising and send my info out to advertising and marketing companies....

[-] 2 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 9 years ago

Thanks Gillian. That was really interesting, and very informative. I recently took part in a collaborative Strike Debt/Rolling Jubilee, Occupy Town Square event. There were doctors and nurses there, giving free medical advice, and pushing for single pay, universal health-care which is something that is long overdue.

We did a protest march which brought us to where St Vincents hospital was and where a couple of doctors spoke. It was recently torn down to make room for luxury condominiums which are well underway now.

See my comment in the news section about the people who are buying up medical debt, or better yet read the news item


[-] 4 points by Gillian (1842) 9 years ago

Thanks so much Frovikleka for protesting in the trenches! You and the others deserve one of those luxury condos at no expense!

I wish that more doctors would appeal to Washington. Any chance of a hearing where everyone's testimony could be heard? Many doctors at Johns Hopkins were in favor of single-payer. I'll check out your news article.

I also want to mention the issue of co-payments which I didn't bring up in my post. I find it to be absolutely ridiculous that anyone should pay a copayment for any doctor's visit after having paid hundreds of dollars for insurance.

Another thing I noticed too. Out of all the doctors that I contacted, only one of them was in ' private' practice vs being part of a big corporation. He's an older doctor around retirement age. That doctor charged much less for the office visit ( 150.00 vs. 300+) than the big corp doctors did and his office assistant was very helpful and informative. She explained to me that depending on how doctors code visits will determine how much coverage a patient will receive. This seemed like a perfect opportunity for a doctor to charge according to how it affects HIS income, not the patient's financial or physical well-being. Also, many of the doctors offices don't tell you that the labs will invoice separately from the office visit. Surprise! Yet another bill that may or may not be covered.

Another really annoying thing I was told was that on the day of my appointment, I need to call them first to confirm my appt because quite often the doctor isn't there. ME call them?

One of the office managers at a dr's office told me that if I ever feel that I desperately need medical care to go to the emergency room because, ' no amount of money is worth sacrificing your health'. I laughed sarcastically and asked her if she understood how bankruptcy and other debt affects health?

There was absolutely not an ounce of human compassion or commonsense in the ' medical industry'. Even those who ' seem' to care at first will gladly hand a patient an application for CareCredit even though they know that CareCredit is one of the most corrupt and damaging forms of financing available at 35 percent interest.

Another issue related to managed care corporations...once they ' own' your doctor, specifically by contract, your doctor is so ' managed' by all the bullshit bureaucracy that he or she can't even be compassionate if they wanted to. Insurance companies also own your doctor. I had a doctor years ago who told me all about the contracts and how he hated being so controlled. He would arrange to see me after hours and never leave a paper trail. This is good in that he didn't have to charge me anything but bad in that if anything were to go wrong , there would be no record of me having received any care.

Why are we not investing our money in hospitals like the Gesundheit Institute instead of insurance? Patch Adams does not turn anyone away and he doesn't charge a penny. He is not offering a possible solution, he IS living and working the model solution!


Thanks again for all you do.

[-] 3 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 9 years ago

What an interesting, oh so admirable person Patch Adams, MD is, thanks.

Like him, I have met so many people in Occupy that are the "salt of the earth", and even when tapping away here, it gets me emotional when I think of them and all the sacrifices that they make, really

I have overcome my own health issues mostly through better nutrition, supplements, quitting drinking, not taking most of my medications, and getting on a major bicycling campaign which included doing just over 3,000 measured miles in one year. Except for one fall when i hit a patch of ice, it was all good. Luckily i hit my head mostly, and since i am heard-headed...no problem. lol

Anyway my point is, i have been given a second chance on life, and I am going to use it in the best way possible

Do not overlook your own great contributions on here and whatever else you do, and keep searching for ways to do more whether it be outreach, resistance to the corrupt status quo, or contributing money or resources to groups like Strike Debt, take an Occupier to lunch, whatever...

I recently met a young woman who has been very close to the heart of this movement since the very beginning. Her determination was clear. I complimented her in an email calling her a woman of substance. She replied back, "Here's looking at you."

So in that light, "Here's looking at you Gillian."


[-] 4 points by Gillian (1842) 9 years ago

Kudos to you Frovikleka! Simply amazing!! I love hearing stories like yours because you exemplify the truth that we do have within each us, the power to change our circumstances ( if only by our attitudes) if we make the effort.

You are such a gem..thanks for the daily recharge. I needed it!

[-] 1 points by inclusionman (7064) 9 years ago

Support student debt relief.


Have you signed yet?. If so my apologize, & thanks.

[-] 4 points by Gillian (1842) 9 years ago

You have my support. Signed, sealed and delivered a few mins ago.

[-] 2 points by inclusionman (7064) 9 years ago

INFO: Debt & opportunity.


FYI (& a deserved bump for the post)

[-] 4 points by Gillian (1842) 9 years ago

I'm old enough ( 52) that I have enough memories of what freedom really looked like through my life. We are hardly free. My little niece sent me an email not long ago saying that she was so happy to be in middle school now because she had more freedom. I gulped and choked on the saliva filling my wide-open mouth! This is a little girl that has all her emails being censored by her parents before she even receives them. She doesn't know any different but I do.

Not only are our freedoms being obliterated day by day but WE ARE handing over our freedom on a silver platter by agreeing to use apps like Facebook, buying insurance, submitting to Obamacare, visiting the doctor. You see, all these things seem perfectly innocent but their not..NOT by a looooong shot. Last week, I had yet another rude awakening about how my freedom has tanked: I received a letter from my insurance company ( business insurance) demanding an audit. An audit? I just paid them a thousand dollars the month before which renewed my insurance for another year. So, why the audit now? It turns out that Obama, our wonderful liberal communist president passed a law that requires insurance companies to determine a company's ' exposure'. via a payroll audit on the previous year..in other words, how much money the employees earn which will determine how much the company pays out in premiums. In other words, the more a company pays to their employees, the more they have to pay in insurance. Does this make sense? Of course not and yet, how many business owners will just comply with the completely unnecessary audit? Not only that but you must send this insurance audit company ( which by the way is not affiliated with my insurance at all..they are a new branch of our gov't posing as a different dept with my insurance company) copies of your tax return. It shouldn't matter how much I pay anyone- it should only matter how many employees I have that create a potential risk. My company has no employees, no payroll and so, they will assess me at a base rate and I will now have to pay them an additional 300 dollar penalty on May 1 in conjunction with my regular premium of 350.00 a month!!! Why are they doing this? Well, because communist Obama is working on behalf of the wealthy who are about to get even exponentially wealthier. He's now using Big insurance and their independent audit corporations to spy on us. When I let the Obamacare has opened up so many avenues of control that it's beyond terrifying. This is even worse than the patriot act! Say goodbye to America because I can promise you, once we are entrenched in Obamacare, there won't be any turning back. Ready to jump ship yet? I am!

[-] 1 points by windyacres (1197) 9 years ago

Insurance for my store was almost $20,000 per year. Imagine my surprise when they informed me to have info ready for them to do an audit, which they do every year.

The insurance company insists that they get a certain percentage of my sales as their cut! The monthly premiums are based on estimates. They believe that's the way it should be.

[-] 2 points by inclusionman (7064) 9 years ago

student debt hurts economy.


pressure for expanded Pell grants, and abolishing 50% of working class student debt.

[-] -1 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 9 years ago

Simply throwing more money at it doesnt cure what the causes are.

[-] 2 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 9 years ago

a society in debt must work for the man?

[-] 2 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 9 years ago

the money being centralized in the first place ?

[-] -1 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 9 years ago

I think thats part of it, policy being done by a very small group of people.

The bankers love this scam. And they REALLY love those who simply just throw more money at things.

[-] 1 points by inclusionman (7064) 9 years ago

What will cure the causes?

[-] 0 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 9 years ago

First we need to understand what the causes are.

Whats caused this massive student debt bubble?

In the rational of prices going up, and prices going down, this one has been on a skyrocketing pace upwards. Extremely damaging and extremely short sighted.

Where is the money coming from, who is making the decisions, and what are the economic factors that are pushing it.

[-] 1 points by inclusionman (7064) 9 years ago

So I assume you undertsand the causes because you said you didn't support expanding Pell grants ("throwing money at it" I believe was your mischaracterization)

So great you understand.

What will cure the causes?

[-] 0 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 9 years ago

A) Get the students a REAL education. College, mostly, is a joke right now. Total cake walk. First two years are rehashed high school nonsense.

There is no reason why students cant learn in two years what they are learning right now in 4. That cuts it in half, assuming rates stay the same.

2) Making it tougher will push the students. Students who are being pushed will decide if they are there to learn, or they are there "because thats just what you do". I graduated only 3 years ago. Professor gives out an assignment, and 2/3 of the class groans. Its like "You dumb fucks, why do you think we are here?!!"

And they are PAYING for it, and complaining. Its like going to the movies, buying your ticket and popcorn, and when the movie comes on, everyone is all upset and discouraged. Doesnt even make sense.

3) Reverse the legislation that says you cant include student debt in bankruptcy. A rush of bankruptcy filings to get rid of that 50k would turn some heads. Maybe. Although Im not so sure about that.

4) This is the one that no amount of legislation can fix - Society needs to value education. And just dont. Its evident everywhere. In the TV shows watch, the music we listen to, the sites we visit. School board meetings get around a 5% turnout for parents. Being smart isnt cool. The societal problems are everywhere.

[-] 1 points by inclusionman (7064) 9 years ago

A- is a good idea. I've thought we should start by eliminating summer vacation. This can cut college by 1 year.

2- (why the switch to numbers?) Not sure this relates to student debt but I support being tough on students.

3- Definitely reverse anti bankruptcy laws regarding student debt. That is after the fact though and doesn't deal with the cause of debt. does it?

4- Agree, society (more people/parents) must value education. I think we value consumerism, things, keeping up, American dream, flash, & glitter. So that is a good change but not really the cause of student debt.

So, Let's do what you suggest AND these items which DO deal with the causes of student debt.

1- Let's force colleges to cut costs, they've raised tuition costs well above inflation. We can tie govt research money, & Pell grant students away from colleges that do not roll back those unfair increases.

2- Add tax to the big corps specifically for Pell grant expansion. It's time we looked at college as a right like k-12. People should not have to pay for public college.

3- Keep banksters out of any loans!!!

4- Interest should be as low as banks get money from Fed. what is it 0.1%?

5- Any payments should be no more than 10% of after tax income, if unemployed, payments will be suspended.

6- Any student debt holder who works for 5 years to help the poor, can suspend payments and have their debt abolished after that 5 year commitment.


[-] 2 points by Gillian (1842) 9 years ago

This wasn't the same audit that I usually get. It was very different and it wasn't by my Insurance company..a third party. The lady told me that the law changed last year. Was your audit a payroll audit or sales audit? Apparently, there is no estimate when they do an audit. They take a certain percentage of income just like my county and another revenuer!

[-] 2 points by Middleaged (5140) 9 years ago

This is either mafia or racketeering.... We get a percentage? Talk about wide open RICO violations.....

[-] 1 points by windyacres (1197) 9 years ago

It was a sales audit and if my sales were higher than estimated, I would have to write them a check for the difference. A percentage of sales was going to be paid to them, an insurance company. Their logic is that if there are more customers then they had more risk, so if you prosper, they get a cut.

[-] 0 points by inclusionman (7064) 9 years ago

I'd like to know what law created the insurance audit you mentioned.

But as a 52 year old you know it requires more than Obama to pass laws. I suppose your extremist 'communist' slur reflects your desire to bash Obama.

No biggie, we get lots of those. I like my freedom and agree the private insurance mandate (conservative concept) in Obamacare is an unfortunate compromise we had to swallow.

I also know several state are devising ways to create the public single payer option that will eliminate the private health insurance corps.

Obamacare has enough flexibility to force that through and it is up to us to force our states to do just that.

Freedom ain't free, we are gonna have to fight if we want to endthe republican insurance mandate & put the private health corps out of business.

Are you with us?

[-] 1 points by Gillian (1842) 9 years ago

I'd like to know that law as well! My extremist communist comment comes from extreme frustration with this ridiculous sick care plan that Obama has planned. I'm all for single-payer. I'm a socialist but, this is far from single payer and I don't see how this insurance will really benefit any of us given how the insurance companies are currently slicing and dicing their coverage while increasing premiums.

[-] 1 points by inclusionman (7064) 9 years ago
[-] 1 points by inclusionman (7064) 9 years ago

Private insurance criminals have been cutting benefits & imposing exhorbitant premium increases for 25 years. So to blame the current effort to put them out of business is misplaced.

This health plan is clearly not single payer. We lost that when repubs killed it. But we included enough flexibility to implement single payer at the state level.

So stop Obama bashing (he got reelected, that battle is over) stop complaining and join with the many decent hard working protesters fighting to force their states to impose single payer.

That is the task we the people have. Not expecting things to be done for us, but to get off the couch and get involved! Be active.

[-] -1 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 9 years ago

So to blame the current effort to put them out of business is misplaced. - haha. Ya, guaranteed customers as forced by the government will really put them out of business. Theres a reason they donate so heavily to both sides.

This was the biggest sell out to corporations we have ever seen. Granted, other industries run us via people's will and societal norms, but never before has the government directly forced people into such a corrupt lobby.

Some politicians think they are going to single payer after this. If they had that ability, it would have been right after 08 with public opinion and momentum on their side.

The insurance companies and big pharma crushed them. And they are just getting started.

[-] 1 points by inclusionman (7064) 9 years ago

The repub created insurance mandate is indeed a corp giveaway. The compromise for expanding coverage was a profound failure.

So obviously WE must fight to expsand the public option.

We can't expect govt to do everything. The people must fight to correct this right wing Heritage foundation ins mandate obscenity.

Expand the public option. Watch VT! They will be1st!

[-] -1 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 9 years ago

I hope they are. I dont think that the ACA will allow it, I believe a few in Vermont have admitted it.

They totally exploited preexisting conditions to get this thing through, and they didnt really solve the underlying cause of preexisting conditions problems- the costs. Denying someone or charging them 4k a month- is there really a difference? Sure, they cant deny anymore, but there isnt anything in there that says it must not be higher than the state average.

I worked in 08 for change, I know what the deal with this shit is. And Im telling you, this law was written by big pharma and the ins companies and these politicians, if they are still believing, got straight out played by people who are much smarter than they are.

[-] 1 points by inclusionman (7064) 9 years ago

Well that IS a small victory. Probably more suited to the food post, but welcomed none the less.

[-] 1 points by inclusionman (7064) 9 years ago

Well don't despair. It's easy to see the negative, Much more difficult to push the positiveness that people can rally behind.

Things are bad.

But our goals are positive, our growing movement IS positive, our small victories are positive, slow progress must be seen as something to build on and therefore positive.

The power of the people is greater than the people in power.

[-] 1 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 9 years ago

FoodandWaterWatch got them to take out a anitbiotic from pears and tomatoes this past week, that is a small victory.

[-] 1 points by inclusionman (7064) 9 years ago

So obviously WE must fight to expand the public option & demand drug price negotiations

We can't expect govt to do everything. The people must fight to correct this right wing Heritage foundation ins mandate obscenity. And we must fight to correct the windfall big pharma giveaways.

Many of us fought for change in 08 and for decades before that. Some of us are stillfighting. Some of us recognize that the overwhelming power of corps and their political puppets prevented the right Health care law.

But we got our foot in the door, and we WILL get the improvements we know are right.

Even if some of us have given up, and submitted to the corp oligarchs massive effort to stop us.

[-] 0 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 9 years ago

Its going to take much more radical change than many are comfortable with, and lots more work than many are comfortable with, to get it.

Im still doing my thing, working with groups and whatnot, trying to do my part. But its tough. Consumerism is a tough mother fucker to fight.

[-] 0 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 9 years ago

Amen to that.

The ACA is pure fascism. 100% corporatism on steroids.

Nothing could be further from single payer than this.

[-] 1 points by inclusionman (7064) 9 years ago

Wow. Much appreciated. it is a long shot, but a great effort. And an important early goal of occupy.


[-] 2 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 9 years ago

You're welcome & thank you too. I just suggested to DK to put up a thread soliciting donations for Strike Debt, read it

Talk it over with him, and let me know, and I will be one of the first to contribute...promise!

We can squabble on another day though...lol

Edited: Squabble instead of fight


[-] 1 points by inclusionman (7064) 9 years ago

If you support Occupies strikedebt efforts why do you want to squabble (previously fight) with me?

[-] 1 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 9 years ago

I don't want to...fight.. maybe a bad choice of words, but i will never agree that Occupy Wall Street should get in bed with the dems, or that it should focus on anything political in terms of the system itself

This view is shared by the overwhelming majority of people that i know in OWS

But yes, we should be able to agree on the initiative of raising money for Strike Debt


[-] 2 points by gsw (3400) from Woodbridge Township, NJ 9 years ago

It almost seems each group, dems, repubs, Ows all get subdivided, liberal more liberal, conservative way conservative. Even my son just showed me a school paper....he's a conservative! He had "reasons".

Ows not to be beholden to dems. But there seems to be political non political division, maybe. Is it theory vs practical?

The political group has asked how will society transform into be non political system. That just doesn't seem possible in this world.

Most everyone wants to talk politics. We need bothpolitical and non political answers.

How can world become nonpolitical? Didn't ZD ask that at least twice?

No. This necessarily involves political issues and maybe answers and Implementation will be political.

Unless we're arguing it's a kingdom in heaven.

If there are nonpolitical ways to think about these issues, or how they can be resolved, I need the refresher course..... Build a bridge to the net on this so I can try to understand more your perspective, and Ows, as I got west coast version.

[-] 1 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 9 years ago

Nowhere recently was it more evident how different groups can put aside their differences, and unite in a common cause than it was in DC for the Climate Rally

I have exchanged several emails with a man who is one of the leaders of a group called USLAW (US Labor Against War). We met at a meeting. Anyway he understands as I do that each group has a part to play in this rev. We both respect that our groups have to maintain a certain individuality, and that the different approaches we have are advantageous, and to a big degree they mirror how the labor struggle of the early 20th century progressed.

I aslo talked to an older Irishman who worked at NYU one day, and had been in several unions in Ireland. And he said without me prompting him, "Oh you gotta have radicals..." Now it is important to say that, that does not mean destructive or violent radicals, but it does mean people willing to risk arrest for a direct action. This corrupt system simply has to much to lose to let a sea change happen without the threat of losing nearly all their advantages they have over us.

Anyway, 'show me a struggle that wanted systemic change and that did not have radicals in it, and I'll show you one that failed. And then as I asked another poster here, 'If not us, who?'

That's my case.



[-] 1 points by gnomunny (6819) from St Louis, MO 9 years ago

Aren't you still waiting for that reply? ;-)

[-] 2 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 9 years ago

Yeah, I guess he has gone to bed or is doing other stuff. I often slide away from here with out any good byes, so I shouldn't be surprised when someone else does it. ;-)


[-] 1 points by gnomunny (6819) from St Louis, MO 9 years ago

That was a very diplomatic answer, Odin.

[-] 2 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 9 years ago

Gee i never thought of myself as being "diplomatic"

yeah I kinda guess I am...;-)

So if I do not say good bye or Good Night....accept that that's just me..OK?

Although admittedly, i hate to lose the 2 points for having better ettiquette


[-] 2 points by gsw (3400) from Woodbridge Township, NJ 9 years ago

Yea I got to the excellent response. There needs to be demonstrative action. Action that gets attention. You at dc had 30,000 or more, on climate. Even that got little attention here. Some, not a lot. There needs to be action from the left. That would be Chris hedges advise as well. . But are not the final solutions going to be political.

You guys are up late, yea I got to sleep and work tomorrow.

The dems accept sanders and warren, are just going along silently, not causing ruckus, like the house repubs liked to last session.

Thanks for restating again the reasoning.

[-] 2 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 9 years ago

Thanks. Ever since i was a kid, I loved history and I know that we can learn a lot from it

Chris Hedges paints a very sobering outlook, and in telling us what has to be done, but I believe it is an accurate one

Take a night off here and view this 3 hour Cspan interview with Hedges. It's well worth it.



[-] 2 points by gsw (3400) from Woodbridge Township, NJ 9 years ago

Still wonder what the final goal of the awakening would be because direct democracy would not work for whole country, we almost need representatives, or a system, that would allow for democracy, demox, etc.

Maybe need an intermediate step between here and there such as direct democracy initiatives.

[-] 0 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 9 years ago

Replying here. I share your concerns with how basic human nature can meld into a new economy, which is not only based on sustainability, but in freedoms too

That includes an incentive for people who want to excel at something to have the chance to be rewarded for it

If you believe though that having an evironment that is not being ravaged as being important, everything else has to be worked out around that

In the opposite way that an anthropologist does his best to divorce himself from the society that he is living in, to look at the past in order to make more accurate conclusions

We have to encompass where we are at, and the trends that brought us here to envision a future where another could be made possible for the betterment of society and the environment

Is it going to be easy? No. Do I have the answers? No.

But for sure, we have to do something, and it will start with a change in ourselves, and then in the ethos of the people on the whole

Is it scarey? Yes you bet, but the alternative is more frightening yet.


[-] 0 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 9 years ago

I agree, i don't think it would work for a country of 300 plus million either

But the fact that there are people in Occupy that are searching for something better is a positive sign

And i don't see how capitalism which requires unlimited growth, hence the unlimited exploitation of our planet can be geared to work for the people anymore

It has to start with a change in ourselves.....which should lead to a change in the ethos of our society.....and finally a different system that does not stifle, but encourages the best in human nature, while discouraging the worst. The transition will be the tricky part, but at the very least, we have to put ourselves on the path to that goal


[-] 0 points by gnomunny (6819) from St Louis, MO 9 years ago

Well, okay, we'll let you slide. No stinkles for you.

[-] 2 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 9 years ago

Replying here. You have to ask someone else about that. I'm in deep thought now ;-) Translation - how the fk would i know?


[-] 1 points by gsw (3400) from Woodbridge Township, NJ 9 years ago

No reply button above

"And i don't see how capitalism which requires unlimited growth, hence the unlimited exploitation of our planet can be geared to work for the people anymore It has to start with a change in ourselves.....which should lead to a change in the ethos of our society.....and finally a different system that does not stifle, but encourages the best in human nature, while discouraging the worst. The transition will be the tricky part, but at the very least, we have to put ourselves on the path to that goal"

So, this would entail the opposite of competition, cooperation. Can humans cooperate once the have knowledge that they can have more than neighbor through greed, or is greed inane. Remember cain and able. Greed, jealousy, competition to be better, how do we transform to cooperative, gift society. I have a book, "sacred economics" by Eisenstein haven't read much of it yet. What do we do with toxic people? Who don't learn to cooperate? What is their gift? Ability to feel no guilt, need to contribute to even family?

I am interested in this, but to redistribute the pie, I know land redistribution has happened in Mexico, an d community ownership, of ejido, communityl farm property, was big for a while.

[-] 1 points by gnomunny (6819) from St Louis, MO 9 years ago

Got it covered. Assisted by "littlethingcalledOWSlove."

[-] 0 points by littlethingcalledOWSlove (-8) 9 years ago

! [ imageName ] ( imageURL )

Remove the spaces. imageName is any name you want to give the image (it can be omitted). imageURL is the image's URL on the web. If the image is not on the web, you'll have to upload it somewhere since you can't do that here.

[-] 2 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 9 years ago

Yoo hoo...no bops either tho?


[-] 2 points by gnomunny (6819) from St Louis, MO 9 years ago

Well, . . . . .

. . . . . okay.

[-] 1 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 9 years ago

Replying here. i lost his last reply to me and didn't see the one he gave you. send it to me, OK? I might slide away now. see ya


[-] 1 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 9 years ago

Try sending a reply to me...or ask a friend to show you

I've gotten a lot of help from friends (not that i have that many..lol), and my kids too


[-] 0 points by gnomunny (6819) from St Louis, MO 9 years ago

Oh, I already figured it out. It works like a charm. Now I'm trying to remember what to do so a picture shows up in your post. I have something I'd like to post, but it requires a picture.

[-] 1 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 9 years ago

Replying here. Yeah, you did see that, but don't tell anyone, OK?

You are shameless coming up with these dumb comments to build your score up

I learned that from that tactic from incman too. It's called the "I am on the high road & you are on the low road tactic", or the Holier Than Thou Tactic ;-), then there is the Victim Tactic which usually comes right after his Attack Tactic

Somewhere I wrote a list of all his different tactics he deployed, and I would identify them by number & letter each time he changed


[-] 1 points by inclusionman (7064) 9 years ago

This official OWS thread is about abolishing debt! It is not appropriate to attack a fellow poster with unfounded personal attacks.

Have some decency.

[-] 1 points by gnomunny (6819) from St Louis, MO 9 years ago

I'd like to see that list.

And there's no hope for my score. Well, unless I really, really cared, I guess.

[-] 1 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 9 years ago

I learned the guilt trip tactic from incman...it works ;-)


[-] 1 points by gnomunny (6819) from St Louis, MO 9 years ago


I thought you were baiting him earlier. And for a minute I thought I was in bizarro world. Was I hallucinating or did I really see you and i'man and DK actually come together for the 'common good?'

[-] 1 points by inclusionman (7064) 9 years ago

banks write off student debt.


We can pressure pols to force to write off better yet abolish) more of this debt.

Join Occupy in our efforts to abolish debt.

[-] 0 points by inclusionman (7064) 9 years ago

Political is just a word describing interaction with the people by leaders.

The issues must be discussed and we need to specify directions, goals we wish our leaders (until we implement direct democracy) to take.

There is much concern about being aligned with one of political party duopoly. I don't see a need to push that goal. i suggest we agitate all politicians for the solutions we prefer.

In regards to this Post, that is abolishing debt, neither party of the duopoly supports that radical position.

Some improvement may come from our pressure, but not likely enough pols will support our goal. We might expand Grants, cut interest rates, I think it might be possible to get banks to forgive some principle on some long term middleclass debt. Hard to say.

The process WILL uncover which pols lean our way. And which are vehemently opposed. As a result we MUST replace any vehemently opposed with more amenable ones.

I mean until we implement direct democracy.

And I didn't have to mention a particular party once.

[-] 1 points by inclusionman (7064) 9 years ago

I didn't mention Dems, let alone getting into bed with them.

I am perfectly satisfied contributing updated current info, and encouraging action on all the many issues that occupy has taken a stand on.

I don't mind leaving it to you to mention Dems.

[-] 1 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 9 years ago

OK fine...for now


[-] 0 points by inclusionman (7064) 9 years ago

I'll try not to stray. Please refrain from "fighting" with me.

I think I can keep my opinions in line with your beliefs..

[-] 0 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 9 years ago

Keeping your "opinions in line with ...[my] beliefs" is not the objective that you should have VQKag

But saying that is very indicative of the way you carry on


[-] 0 points by inclusionman (7064) 9 years ago

You said "Dems", You said "We shouldn't discuss "getting in bed with dems", You said "we won't fight .....for now"

I'm making every effort to avoid any conflict with you..

I will continue contributing important current info, and encouraging actions related to the issues that occupy has taken a stand on.

Perhaps you've been listening to the wrong people about me.

I mean are you making some accusation about me? Make it. You don't have to threaten "fighting" me. I will listen to your evidence.

[-] -1 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 9 years ago

OK, whatever you say....for now


[-] 2 points by inclusionman (7064) 9 years ago

Another ominous comment.


[-] 1 points by inclusionman (7064) 9 years ago



[-] 0 points by greysone (-264) 9 years ago

But true!!

[-] 2 points by inclusionman (7064) 9 years ago

LOL. And inappropriate again. And removed again.

Why is it necessary for you to be so offensive.

Get a clue.

[-] 2 points by inclusionman (7064) 9 years ago

Obviously untrue and now removed. Thankfully.

Please refrain from these childish offenses.

[-] -3 points by greysone (-264) 9 years ago

Why do you consider lesbians to be offensive?

[-] 2 points by inclusionman (7064) 9 years ago

I do not. Why do you ask?

Do you have comments regarding abolishing debt? (That's what the post is about.)

[-] -1 points by greysone (-264) 9 years ago

Banks do not force anyone to borrow money.

[-] 1 points by inclusionman (7064) 9 years ago

utthey hace defrauded millions of borrowers, andthey have rigged lending laws to screw the lender.

So you support the banksters who crashed the world economy, took tax payer bailouts, settles scores of lawsuits, defrauded us,illegally foreclosed on us and are laughin all the way home to their suburban homes with massive salaries/bonuses.

I support the decent hard working Americans who have been conned out of their life savings.

'sok. We disagree. No problem. I

[-] -1 points by greysone (-264) 9 years ago

if you are borrowing money its up to you to make sure what you're signing on to. no one is forcing you to sign your name on the dotted line. people should be responsible for their own bahaviour . if you have doubts,ask questions. only an idiot would sign onto what they dont understand. napolitano a great leader?,lol, same with kagen ,hillary and sotomayor.

[-] 1 points by inclusionman (7064) 9 years ago

Do banksters also have to be responsible? I mean they are the ones who crashed the world economy, defrauded decent hard working Americans, and foreclosed illegally on them.

See you blame the victim who got their life savings stolen from them, I blame the con artist criminal banksters who got away with all the loot.

Ain'tcha' never heard "follow the money"?


[-] 1 points by inclusionman (7064) 9 years ago

What if bankster criminals defraud borrowers, or foreclose illegally,?

Don't you think the ridiculous fine print high interest credit card agreements are predatory?

I think your comments regarding the great female leaders sexuality betray YOUR homophobia because you are stating it (when you don't know) as if it is a bad thing.

[-] -2 points by greysone (-264) 9 years ago

Again,....no one is ever forced to borrow money.

[-] 1 points by inclusionman (7064) 9 years ago

Our society has squeezed the middle class y stagnating their wages, while prices, & costs have risen.

We ARE forced to borrow or fall behind, or have less, not keep up with the joneses or the American dream.

That is forcing desperate measures as sure as putting a gun to your head.

And banksters are a major part of that scheme, scam. flim flam game.

So yeahwe are forced. You just don't see it.

[-] 1 points by inclusionman (7064) 9 years ago

hang on! A new Occupy effort to abolish debt


A Resounding Success!!!! We have only just begun!

[-] 1 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 9 years ago

Yes the Rolling Jubille is a wonderful Occupy affintiy group who are doing great things

I am now having money deducted every month from my cc, which i realize is both good and bad, but in this case I feel the good far outweighs the bad


[-] 1 points by inclusionman (7064) 9 years ago

Occupy Day of Action

Tell banks to pay their taxes. Force them to abolish cr card debt.


Join us April 15

[-] 1 points by inclusionman (7064) 9 years ago

UPD: Strikedebt SF


FYI and a bump for this great post

[-] 1 points by inclusionman (7064) 9 years ago

Thought debtors prison outlawed in the 1800's?

Think again.


[-] 1 points by inclusionman (7064) 9 years ago

Tell Obama NOT good enough


[-] 1 points by inclusionman (7064) 9 years ago

Occupy abolishes $1m debt


FYI. & a bump for this great post

[-] 1 points by gnomunny (6819) from St Louis, MO 9 years ago

Great comment, Gillian. Eye-opening.

[-] 4 points by elf3 (4203) 9 years ago

The hole of debt - so deep by the time you climb out your life has passed you by.

[-] 2 points by donOld (134) 9 years ago

We are born, in this world, into a game that's already started. We arrive late ...really late, for the game is nearly completed. As in Monopoly, all of the properties are owned and everywhere we land, rents must be paid.

We have no choice ...these are the rules of the game. The game is not an option. There is no other way to survive. The land and the resources necessary for alternatives are gone and laws prevent us from hunting, fishing and cultivating independent societies. To survive we need money and money is the key to winning the game.

All talk of freedom is absurd. We are only “free” to get into their game. The rules are set, quitting is illegal, so get started “earning a living”. We have no inherent human right to be alive. We must earn our right to exist by submitting to the authority of those who are winning the game.

We are unable to explore and develop our interests and talents in the order of importance that we define for ourselves. We can not use this gift of life, our time on Earth, in accordance with our own inner directives. We must rent our lives out in the marketplace, like a spare room that we'd love to use ourselves but that we simply can't afford to occupy. We must take what work we can get and hope that some day we will have saved enough to finally use the room for ourselves.

This is the depressing truth about life on this planet. There is no use in trying to pretend it's not really this bad. An ostrich with his head in the sand leaves his butt in the air ready to be kicked. There is no use in trying to tinker around the edges of the problem either. Wasting all your time and energy trying to fix symptoms of a problem while ignoring its cause is ridiculous. Unemployment, poverty, crime and pollution are just symptoms or effects of a much deeper illness. The real problem that we must understand and overcome is the debt-based financial system that the inventors of the game have been using for over 300 years to motivate, entertain and enslave us. Money is the carrot that lures us into the cage ...and the stick that prevents us from leaving.

Yes the game is almost over. Global corporations now own or control most of the Earth's resources. Democratically elected governments everywhere are deforming into secretive Orwellian elites, serving international masters, using intrusive police-state techniques to monitor and control their citizens. Genetic engineering and patents on food and plant life, and soon even human DNA, means that every square on the board of Life will be owned and operated for profit. A cartel of privately owned companies will own the rights to everything on Earth and the rest of humanity will do all the work for them or perish. Governments will exist primarily to enforce their rights. The game of Monetary Monopoly will then be complete.

But it doesn't have to end like this. A simple shift in thinking could lead us into a world of new possibilities. Money doesn't have to be scarce. A shortage of money doesn't have to limit what we can achieve on Earth. Our money system is not a law of nature, it's a device of man, and it can easily be modified to better suit our needs. All that is lacking is the public focus and demand for change.

The idea that money is scarce is not an accident. It is the very foundation of the deception that is used to control the board of life and to cheat all working people out of a large portion of their income and productivity. When all money is created as interest-bearing debt, lenders can exploit all personal and business endeavors and impose a private tax on human labor and initiative. They can also grow tremendously rich, and powerful enough to control corporations, the government, the education system, the media and, of course, public opinion.

So how do we free ourselves from the grip of the money lenders? It's a lot easier than you think.

Dare to educate yourself a bit, independently. Forget the mainstream news and opinion shows. They are purposely set up to mislead you away from the most important issues, and exhaust you with irrelevant political and economic trivia and bickering. Instead, start asking yourself some pretty simple questions like:

What is truly valuable in life? What makes a country valuable? Where does the money that banks loan out really come from? What is our money really based on?

Think about these questions deeply for they are the key to economic freedom and true democracy. Be curious and use the internet to explore ideas and opinions that you will never see expressed on TV or anywhere in the mainstream media. Trust your own common sense and gut feelings about what is right and wrong, possible and impossible. Allow yourself to think outside the box and imagine new possibilities. Remember our financial system is a human flaw, not a natural law.

[-] 2 points by donOld (134) 9 years ago

debt is a fraud... it lends "money" created out of thin air... electronic digits entered into a computer

the money banks lend never belonged to anyone else... they just fabricated it when the loans were made

all debts could be written off and no one else's money would be lost...

the banks write off all kinds of loans each and every day... knowing full well that they are not losing anything real at all... EXCEPT THE RIGHT TO CHARGE INTEREST

but when a loan goes bad, and they are certain that they will never get to collect any more interest from the sucker that signed the loan agreement, then they have nothing to lose at all by writing off the debt

so fuck the bankers and their money from thin air... they are thieves, robbing us of the fruits of our labor

and fuck the government thugs who enforce their criminal lending practices

send their phony money back into the ether it came from

[-] 2 points by inclusionman (7064) 9 years ago

Excellent, informative, and encourages action.

Everyone who reads this should be driven to act, & support our efforts.


[-] 1 points by donOld (134) 8 years ago
[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 9 years ago

Makes a GR8 tweet.

Watch @SenWarren make outrageously reasonable demand on Senate floor. #BankOnStudents (via @Upworthy) http://www.upworthy.com/senator-uses-logic-to-suggest-that-maybe-we-shouldnt-let-banks-rob-your-kids-awesome-bill-ensues-3?g=2&c=upw10 Proper Work.

[-] 1 points by inclusionman (7064) 9 years ago

Sen Warren knows the better way.

[-] 1 points by inclusionman (7064) 9 years ago

Pressure ALL pols for lower student loan rates, more Pell grants, lower tuition costs.!!


[-] 1 points by inclusionman (7064) 9 years ago

We should support this concept inside and outside govt. Absolutely outside of big banks.


As a "public banking effort" as a relief effort to borrowers. Solidarity with all cost cutting efforts for student debt, tuition costs.

[-] 1 points by inclusionman (7064) 9 years ago

Debtors prison is next, again!


The "strangling" comes immediately after.

[-] -2 points by eterna (-93) from Montauk, NY 9 years ago

they know what the tuition is, and that it will go up, why did they choose to go there?

[-] 0 points by inclusionman (7064) 9 years ago

I think they were forced to

[-] 2 points by eterna (-93) from Montauk, NY 9 years ago

forced to go there? are you being facitious?

[-] 0 points by inclusionman (7064) 9 years ago

No I believe they were forced to go to college by the propaganda, brainwashing, constant message that you cannot succeed unless you go to college.

Never saw that?

[-] 1 points by socialmedic (178) 9 years ago

Please help pass this bill for student debt relief it is a bill that has been realistically put on the table by a brave congresswoman from LA. It is more reasonable in terms than those passed before it. http://signon.org/sign/support-the-student-loan-6?source=c.url&r_by=5462310. Don't let this get by, I do not know how she got it in but don't waste her time. It is the best student loan relief bill yet!

[-] 1 points by inclusionman (7064) 9 years ago

UPD on debt struggles



[-] 1 points by inclusionman (7064) 9 years ago
[+] -4 points by greysone (-264) 9 years ago

Why are you forced to borrow money? if you were never taught to live within your means, you have a problem that you will never be able to work out.

[-] 3 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 9 years ago

to eat, to pay rent to get medical help

[-] -2 points by greysone (-264) 9 years ago

food stamps, section 8 housing, free clinics, medicare.

[-] 2 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 9 years ago

those services should be provided to everyone

[-] -2 points by greysone (-264) 9 years ago

Why? an entitlement society is a worthless society.you want something, need something? work for it like most people do. an entitlement society will collapse under its own weight.

[-] 2 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 9 years ago

the land was here before the people

it doesn't ask for payback

those that "own" the property call the shots

ofcourse, work is necessary to tap the lands resources

but the abundance of the world does not dictate we should work beyond that

[-] -1 points by greysone (-264) 9 years ago

you expect a " free" car"? a " free" computer", a " free" TV? "free " clothes? " free" vacuum"? "free" dishes? WORK for it

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 9 years ago

ok big bucks

[-] 0 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 9 years ago

Is this a joke? I didnt know there are free clinics that will fix a broken foot. And I also didnt know that foodstamps are just given out for free. And I also didnt know that sec 8 is as easy as just dropping in.

Its gotten to the point now where people can make more on disability than they can working at low level jobs.

Thats called a scam.

[-] -2 points by greysone (-264) 9 years ago

you can negotiate a doctors fee,...............you can arrange for payments. an ebt card ( food stamps ) is free( at taxpayer expense) if filing and filling out forms for an ebt card or section 8 housing or medicaid it to much trouble, than they deserve what they dont have.

[-] 2 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 9 years ago

interest and rent are at the swatters expense

[-] 0 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 9 years ago

When was the last time you got in a medical pinch an negotiated a doctor's fee? Please....

Ebt is free, but its not a handout. Theres requirements. Meaning not anyone can get one. Medicaid wont cover you if you start to get by, and the sec 8 waiting list in Tampa is over 10k.

No offense, but you are too removed from all of this to understand how it works.

[-] -1 points by greysone (-264) 9 years ago

Years ago i did it when i needed oral surgery. i did not have any dental insurance and was able to negotiate a fee that i could pay out over time. the requirements for an ebt card are income based. If you start to get by, why the need for FREE medical? there is a waiting list for section 8 housing,.......so?

[-] 0 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 9 years ago

"years ago being the key word"...you are simply out of touch. I feel sorry for kids who have to come up in this fucked up system that your horrendous generation has created.

The cutoff for medicaid is right around 15k a year. So you manage to make $300 a week and now you lose it. Have kids? Dont even think about losing it.

Foodstamps are around 1400 a month cutoff for family of four. So if you and your wife make more than $200 a week, your cut off.

The point of the waiting list was to show you it wasnt worth bringing up duh.

[-] -2 points by greysone (-264) 9 years ago

years ago was 10 years ago. free clinics are free. you expect the govt to pay for every aspect of everyones life. sorry, it cannot be sustained. by the way, doctors are legally bound to treat everyone, even if they dont not have money.

[-] 0 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 9 years ago

Why do you keep going towards free? Are you programmed that way?

I dont want the gov paying for anything for me. I want affordable care.

[-] 1 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 9 years ago

Friend of mine just got done with school. Going to be 1200 per month in payments. I told her that theres no way she can do it.

Defaults jumped 30+% this year.

Forcing people to go in debt 40k for the most basic of jobs, is total bullshit. Its not a healthy way for young couples to HAVE to start their lives. If you cant see this is another banker/gov scam, then you are hopeless.

[-] -1 points by greysone (-264) 9 years ago

if she borrowed money she has a moral and legal obligation to pay it back. she did not have to borrow the money, it was her choice, she was not forced to do it.

[-] 0 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 9 years ago

Societal norms that are being centrally planned mandates it. This scam is not about them offering education, its about making it impossible to get started on the right path without adding another mortgage to their responsibilities.

I agree that no one legally forced anyone to do anything. There are, however, severe economic penalties for not playing along. So go in debt, or work at Walmart. Thats not called opportunity. Thats called a rigged system.

[-] -1 points by greysone (-264) 9 years ago

you can learn a trade at a free trade school. electrician, plumbing, car repair. not everyne is sutied for college. how many people graduate with useless degrees in blah blah studies that have no value?

[-] 1 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 9 years ago

Wonderful, more tradesmen. Like we dont have enough of them in this fantastic "service economy".

The thing, EVERYONE is suited for college because its been dumbed down to the point of irrelevance. High school is a fuckin joke. But the societal tone mandates that college is not a bargaining chip.

And please show me where these free trade schools are. Anyone can work their way up the ladder at a company, I suppose.

We are going to have garbage men with college degrees soon. A massive debt bubble is about to burst.

You are looking at everything from your own point of view. Which is fine. I am looking at it from the central planner's view. Dumb down everything, make college extremely expensive by subsidizing the risk through the tax payer, and then watch as the entire population struggles to keep their head above water. What do they do next?

They ask for help. And guess who will be there to provide it?

[-] -2 points by greysone (-264) 9 years ago

you can go to a treade school high school. then you can apprentice to learn more about the trade to you want to go in to. I am not a plumber, most people aren't, same with electricians, . there are more laywer ( unemployed ) than there are plumbers and electricians.

[-] 0 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 9 years ago

Really? So some kid is going to move himself out of his parents house and across the county so he can go to a trade school? Really? Thats not practical at all, or even possible in most cases.

And I believe there are more lawyers in school right now than lawyers total. Not good sign of things to come.

I grew up in construction, I know all about it. If thats the solution to not going 50k into debt, we are fucked.

The system is rigged. The societal infrastructure is fucked. And remember, Im the guy that puts the most blame on the apathy of the people. But its fucked regardless.

[-] -2 points by greysone (-264) 9 years ago

trade high schools are local , if not , go to a local guy, ask to apprentice with him,...................MAKE AN EFFORT.

[-] 2 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 9 years ago

Are you really in that much of a bubble? Local? Local how? Whats local?

And the kids who grow up in the country?

So theres an abundance of guys out there who are willing to take the financial and legal risk out there to help out kids who want to learn? ARe you insane? Most of these guys can barely pay their bills.

And in case you have never taken in an intern before- it doesnt make your life easier on the job site, its a huge liability.

How old are you?

[-] -3 points by greysone (-264) 9 years ago

you want everything in life to be given to you,....................thats a formula for economic collapse.

[-] 1 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 9 years ago

No, actually I dont, and the fact that you take me saying the system is rigged as meaning I want handouts is more symtoms of a centrally planned mess.

I dont want a handout. I want people to be able to support themselves, to not live in a situation where massive debt is piled on just for a shot at a decent job.

Things werent always like this. Are people too eager for the gov to help them in many cases? Yes. Is the system fucked? Hell ya.

You're taking the middle of the road view. You havent had to deal with this bullshit, so you cant speak from experience. And you arent educated enough in it to see the central planning and where they are trying to take the nation.

You should probably stick to FOX and MSNBC with the rest of the morons, arguing with each other over symptoms.

[-] -2 points by greysone (-264) 9 years ago

you have no idea what my life was like. central planning is statism . and statism is what obama & co are about.

[-] 1 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 9 years ago

If you think the right isnt about it as well, you are falling victim to the system.

[-] 1 points by inclusionman (7064) 9 years ago

We must go to college to succeed in this society. We can't pay for it without borrowing.

THAT is being forced! Coerced! Trapped. Conned!

[-] -1 points by greysone (-264) 9 years ago

No, you dont. you can learn a trade . she could have gone to night school, she could have worked for awhile to save money for school, she could have done well in high school to get some scholarship money. there is no time limit on when you finish college should you choose to go.

[-] 1 points by inclusionman (7064) 9 years ago

Sure just become part of the underclass.

Time to treat college like grades 1-12. Free public school!!

Stop overwhelming our young people with massive debt!

This is only a new phenomenon. Didn't happen 30 years ago.

[-] -1 points by greysone (-264) 9 years ago

They overwhelm themselves.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 9 years ago

the rich already have the money reserves

[-] 1 points by inclusionman (7064) 9 years ago

The state of the economy and society are to blame.

college costs must drop, Pell grants increased, middle class income must grow.

Then they will not be overwhelmed.


[-] 1 points by inclusionman (7064) 9 years ago

You don't speak for the Admin do you?

The middle has been squeezed since conservative trickle down/weak regulations began 30+ years ago.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 9 years ago

the more money I have, the greater influence I have on my surroundings

[-] 2 points by inclusionman (7064) 9 years ago

As is true for all of us.

And since I could not respond in the other thread allow me to link this video explaining the inflation basket of goods.


I'm quite sure the 700 item basket includes food, always has.

[-] -1 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 9 years ago

Dude, no one is saying teh inflation is higher than it was in the 70s. The focus is on CURRENT levels, where do they stand.

You say that its at alltime lows, which is a pile of Bernake.

[-] 2 points by inclusionman (7064) 9 years ago

I said accurately that the rate of inflation (not prices) are at historic lows.

[-] -1 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 9 years ago

Thats not accurate at all. Not in the least bit. Total lie.

Are you a Bernake op?

[-] 1 points by inclusionman (7064) 9 years ago

The bankrate article you linked to regarding inflation stated that food IS part of 'all item inflation rate' which means food IS in the basket of goods. It goes on to say that the inflation rate for food is 1.8%.

1.8% man. That is NOT an inflation crises. We had 14% in the late 70's.

I'm sorry. But thank you for providing evidence of the facts.

Your article does state that food is excluded from the cpi. So I suppose that is what you meant.

However, 1.8%!!!!!! c'mon man,

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 9 years ago

I heard otherwise for years

food is much higher than 1.8%

[-] 2 points by inclusionman (7064) 9 years ago

It was your article. but I don't see the large price increases you do.

Some food increases is related to the climate change influenced drought and other natural disasters.

In any event, I am of course against inflation. the answer is to increase wages, & expand employment.

[-] 2 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 9 years ago

but the labor of the people is not nearly as needed

[-] 2 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 9 years ago

people need food, shelter and healthcare

not labor

[-] 2 points by inclusionman (7064) 9 years ago

That will improve.

[-] 0 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 9 years ago
[-] 0 points by inclusionman (7064) 9 years ago

$450 per TON in 2008, $300 now.

Inflation bad! We agree.

Still we are at record lows.

[-] 0 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 9 years ago

I can tell you that the boxes that pasta come in are pathetically small now. Thats one trick they use, they take the same product as a year ago, but dont do the pricing in a per oz unit. Its just a unit. A loaf of bread by Wonderbread for instance. Yes, its only increased marginally, but the size has shrank by 10%.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 9 years ago

chocolate has edged over $4 a pound, The $1 package nof snack size candy have fallen below 4 ounces

[-] 1 points by inclusionman (7064) 9 years ago

I think wonderbread is gone. (hostess?)

Thearticle clearly states food inflation was 1.8%. Certainly product shrinkage ain't a new phenomenon. So it's all equal.

inflation IS low. I'm against it. The answer is higher wages, expanded employment and monetary policy reform.

[-] 1 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 9 years ago

Im telling you from my own experience, inflation is not low. The costs of everything is going up, in some cases a lot. My health ins went up 23% last year. Electric companies and phone companies are tacking on shit left and right. Our internet and cable just went up $20 to 160.

Tell ya what, do you have any friends that own restaurants? Go talk to them about food prices. Go straight to those that deal with it A LOT. You will see. And the worse is yet to come.

[-] 0 points by inclusionman (7064) 9 years ago

Health insurance has been going up far beyond the rate of inflation since Clinton tried reform 20 years ago because they smelled the end of their golden goose and decided to rake in as much as possible until it ended.

However I did see some story about how Health insurance costs rose at slowest pace in 5 years.

But obviously we know that public option is the only way to cut costs for the people.

And I know prices are up. Inflation exists. Always has. I'm against it. But it IS at historic lows. Higher wages, expanded employment. monetary reform!

So what do we disagree on?

[-] 0 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 9 years ago

Go ask some restaurant owners on their thoughts on current food price increases?

PS- theres a reason lots of establishments are "redoing" their menus.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 9 years ago

wages have not increased with recent inflation

[-] 1 points by inclusionman (7064) 9 years ago

Restaurants are doing great in my neighborhood, and I have a good friend who has opened a small chain of taco places.

He is doing very well selling reasonable priced mexican comfort food.

I think he will confirm what I have known for some years now. All ingredients are going up. Rapidly. Cheese, meat. No doubt about it.

Inflation is not a good thing. I'm against it.

Still it IS at historic lows. That can't argued Sorry.

Do we disagree? On what?

[-] -1 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 9 years ago

Ok, Im going to try this one again.

Go find some people who run restuarants and ask them about the price increases. This wouldnt include someone who just opened, because they have no history to base it off of.

Go find em. And ask em. Your historic lows stats are bullshit. Your simply providing cover for someone for some reason. Bernake your uncle?

[-] 1 points by inclusionman (7064) 9 years ago

Ok so your gonna resort to obscenities and personal attacks because we disagree on the history of the cpi?


I already told you I have a restaurant owner friend, & I already told you he will confirm high prices, which I know.

I can't pretend for you that prices did NOT go up faster in the 70's.

Sorry. but if you can't handle that truth without the uncivil childishness you starting to exhibit then please refrain from responding at all.

Good day, & good luck in all your good efforts.

[-] -1 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 9 years ago

Saying that "historic lows" for inflation is bullshit isnt a personal attack. And the Bernake thing was a joke.

Your friend has nothing to base it off of, he just opened. How the hell is he going to have anything to base it on.

Guys who have been opened for a while say its out of control. Its fucking everything up. While it may not be as high as the 70's. there is no way in hell its at "historic" lows. Thats just Bernake garbage.

Surely you dont believe Bernake......

[-] 2 points by inclusionman (7064) 9 years ago

I haven't spoken to my friend so he hasn't said anything.

You're not really paying attention are you.

reread my comments before your next response so you don't mistake the situation. and this entrepreneur/restauranteur has had a number of restauraunts for the last 20 years.

but that doesn't chage the fact that food prices are going up at a slower rate than the 70's.

[-] -2 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 9 years ago

Ok, try to grasp this-

Slower than the 70's does not mean record lows. HOw you are making that comparison is beyond me.

And if he hasnt noticed a dramatic increase in food prices, then hes not in the business.

Ill repeat: Im NOT saying it was a bad as the 70's. Im saying it bad. As is NOT record lows.

NOT as bad as the 70's. Not as good as the 90's and 00's. Follow me?

[-] 2 points by inclusionman (7064) 9 years ago

You aren't following me. for instance I've said more than once "If I talked to him, I haven't tak to him yet, I'm sure he would say."

I indicated he would agree with me that prices are high, & rising rapidly,

So why are you trying to discredit him?

And certainly prices are much higher than the 70's.

None of that changes the fact that the rate of increase now is much lower than the 70's.

[-] 1 points by inclusionman (7064) 9 years ago

Oh I think inflation was worse in the 90's & 00's.

[-] -3 points by greysone (-264) 9 years ago

the rich ( even when over taxed ) will be alright, the poor will be taken care of by the govt at the expense of the "rich" and middle class ( income) people. the middle will be wiped out,......thats obamas plan of wealth redistribution.

[-] 2 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 9 years ago
[-] 1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 9 years ago

Cool song and I want one of those caps!!!!!!

[-] -1 points by greysone (-264) 9 years ago

You dont want a middle income segment of society?

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 9 years ago

the poor can donate organs to them

[-] 2 points by inclusionman (7064) 9 years ago

Not likely. more likely you are just spewing right wing wacko partisan lies.

But whatever, you haven't been correct on anything yet.

[-] 0 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 9 years ago

Thats not just Obama's plan, thats the entire establishments plan.

Service economy- service-servants-serfs-serfdom---Celente

[-] 2 points by inclusionman (7064) 9 years ago

That is the conservative trickle down/weak regulation plan.

And I would agree that it has been progressing for 30+ years, resulting in decades of middleclass wage stagnation and the world wide economic crash in 2007/8.

That is what I am fighting against. So without getting partisan and naming individuals or even parties (I'll let you do that) I simply focus on the issues/policies we must implement to correct this debacle.

fin reform/strong regulations, higher wages, jobs programs, tax increases on wealthy, expanded college aid,universal public option healthcare. etc

Don't bother me with circle jerk partisan Obama bashing.

[-] 0 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 9 years ago

Weak regulation for the very top, regulate the shit out of anyone trying to compete.

Thats the fascist plan. And thats the plan you are living in.

And I wasnt bashing Obama, I was bashing ALL of em. See, my expectations dont change because of the silly letter at the end of someone's name.

[-] 1 points by inclusionman (7064) 9 years ago

You did say Obama though right?

We need strong regulations or the corp 1% oligarchs will continue squeezing us, poisoning us, conning us out of our money.

[-] -2 points by greysone (-264) 9 years ago

what i said is correct,..............confiscate all the money from the so called rich and it will be able to run the fed. govt for about 1 month. SPENDING is the problem.

[-] 1 points by inclusionman (7064) 9 years ago

You are mistaken, the problem is low revenue. We must raise wages, create jobs, raise taxes on the rich, cut defense, & corp welfare.

[-] -1 points by greysone (-264) 9 years ago

the govt is taking in a record amount of revenue in taxes. SPENDING is the problem.

[-] 2 points by inclusionman (7064) 9 years ago

I disagree

[-] 1 points by anonymous (48) 9 years ago

So, the idea is we may change all that together, and raise a new democracy, which would be a 'real democracy'. Okay! What about the different levels of interest, participation and understanding of the issues involved? What about those who do not care or want to take part, or do not believe it? 99% is an utopy - by now it's probably less than 1% really involved. Besides, any movement has leaders (at least to creat it) and usually they are the ones who point where to go and what/how to do, and also why. Just creating a new system of signs for participation in small caucuses will not solve any and just denouncing what's wrong in society either, if we're not able to create a plausible, workable alternative that will mean a real progress as compared to what we have today. During wars and revolutions we find out even a bad social/political system is usually better than none. Are we ready to put down the building before being able to build a new one? If you felt tempted to say: you tell me - I tell you I guess we are.

[-] 1 points by anonymous (48) 9 years ago

I'm really concerned about all the other peoples who were put in much worse condition by both american and european companies and their associate governments. Americans are feeling now a bit of what we've been feeling for decades. Brazilian Anonymous (here in my country this movement has been appropriated by a few emerging parties which in fact want to take formal power in their hands: incoherence?)

[-] 1 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 9 years ago

No one exemplifies the spirit of Occupy better than the people in Strike Debt

These mostly young people represent some of the brightest and best in our struggle

And the humanity that they exhibit with their Rolling Jubilee initiative is heart warming. It really is.

If my main contribution to our struggle has morphed into helping to buy food, cooking, setting up and cleaning up for their events, as it was Saturday at the Judson church....so be it

Just being around these wonderful people, and knowing how much good they are doing is payback enough


[-] 3 points by Gillian (1842) 9 years ago

I completely agree and many thanks to you for joining them ;D

[-] 2 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 9 years ago

You're welcome Gillian. I have been in Occupy Town Square since January 2012, and we do collaborative outreach events in parks mostly throughout the city where regional affinity groups are the host and make the food, and we in turn organize the different affinity groups like, but not limited to Occupy Parents, Occupy the Arts, The Screen Printers Guild where you supply the shirt, and they'll put the Occupy logo on etc. We have uni professors that give economic lectures, doctors who give health-care lectures, educational plays, lots of literature, The Tax Dodgers baseball team in full uniform with an amplified quirky announcer....first batter up....Goldman Sachs...and the announcer proceeds to tell how they screwed the American people, etc..There's more, but you get the picture

Anyway the the event we did on the 23rd with Strike Debt/Rolling Jubilee was a collaborative event which was both inside the Judson Church, and outside in Washington Square Park as well

This time unlike most times, OTS was the host in the fact that we took care of the food, and did whatever was necessary to see that the event went off well

Please understand that my contributions are small compared to the many other mostly young people in OUR struggle, and they truly are some of the best people that I have ever known. How could they not be considering all the altruistic work they are doing to make this a better World?


[-] 3 points by Gillian (1842) 9 years ago

Simply amazing!

[-] 1 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 9 years ago

Thanks, THEY are amazing


[-] 1 points by wiscokidd (12) from Hayward, WI 9 years ago

Money has no intrinsic value yet presently it's worth is twisted into being worth far more that all the workers labors and bounty of nature itself. I have announced world wide one person one vote on the internet (WWOPOV). That is ahead of it's time, for now. I just started a web site project I call wethepeoplerule.net I have a long way to go, maybe over a year to get the system up and running. I'll need a lot of help. Eventually it will host the first, independent of the government, national referendum. The first issue at hand is to demand a constitutional convention to add a people's majority referendum process to the Constitution and political system. The next order of business is to develop and install a democratic populous controlled monetary system. If, I mean if, the monetary system monopolizing class backs off peaceably, a quasi public private banking system where the government can print money independently of the international banking community. Government issued monies will maintain the needs of the people and provide the tranquility necessary for private business to take place. Private banking and private ownership is a privilege not for them to be granted by them selves to themselves controlling our government to their own benefit. I am dedicated to developing a computerized digital means of counting votes independent of the government, until that right is granted to us by our government to develop meaningful participatory people's governance of ourselves in a democratic manner. I'm keeping our web site up but I also may want to merge with with gethub, I'll try and see if they are really for what they propose to be. If they are I expect this will be a revolutionary process in the making. hasta la victoria, siempre. Ken Driessen, the wiscokidd

[-] 1 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 9 years ago

"Unfortunately, the Affordable Health Care Act (aka Obamacare) will not address most of these problems. It will certainly raise access—to expensive “under-insurance” plans with high deductibles and lots of out-of-pocket costs."

Exactly. Thank you. And anyone who thinks ACA will put a financial strain on companies, only need to go ask Geico and Statefarm how they are doing since the gov "forced" the people to buy from them via government mandate.

[-] 1 points by Mark01 (82) 9 years ago

the speakers and the strikedebt report gave me alot of helpful info to help me write my essay on the need for socialized healthcare. After spring break i will read it in front of my class and help to spread the message in my own small way.

[-] 0 points by freewriterguy2 (3) 9 years ago

the real culprits are corporate foods. Try eating organic, live healthy, and save your money on worthless health insurance. that's what I do. I don't even use corporate toothpaste anymore cause I can tell there is something in it that ruins my enamel, but when I use natural toothpaste my teeth feel smooth, not like the corporate which feels like it just got sandpapered.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 9 years ago

there was a student debt rate increase ?

I'll always be an indentured servant

[-] 0 points by inclusionman (7064) 9 years ago

A doubling is approaching. Now is the time to protest & be heard.

[-] 2 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 9 years ago

I am always heard

[-] 1 points by inclusionman (7064) 9 years ago

huh? I'm sorry. did you say something.?

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 9 years ago


[-] 0 points by inclusionman (7064) 9 years ago

You know I'm playing.

I have no doubt you are heard.

[-] 0 points by donOld (134) 9 years ago

WOW!!! ...simple, short, profound


[-] 0 points by inclusionman (7064) 9 years ago

Flip the debt!


national day of action 4/15. Make wall st pay.





[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 9 years ago


Debt Strangles the 99% | http://OccupyWallSt.org : http://occupywallst.org/article/debt-strangles-99percent/#.UU9UVwnOS7w.twitter

Full Show: What Has Capitalism Done for Us Lately? http://bit.ly/XA3wxE via @BillMoyers Watch/Share/Circulate.

[-] 3 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 9 years ago

Thanks for the links & the TWEETS DK. Like i said the people in Strike Debt are wonderful people who are doing great things and they should get all the support that we can give them.


[-] -2 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 9 years ago

Actions and education need to be Circulated.

[-] 2 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 9 years ago

Yes, and it would be cool to put up a thread on here for Strike Debt, and solicit donations

It would be a great way to link the forum to the streets/dynamic affinity group

I meant to check last night, but I do believe that they have some cool ways to donate like maybe deducting so much $ every month or something.....from you credit card or credit union/bank account

If you did this, it would also show people here that sometimes adversaries can come together for the Greater Good

And of course, it would show that i like pawning off jobs to other people ;-)


[-] -3 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 9 years ago
[-] 2 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 9 years ago

I was thinking about a more direct approach & hence title to the thread like Support Strike Debt Now - with donations, or something like that, then with a brief commentary on how easy it is to donate, and putting up that same link too


i just commented to incman about this too.

[-] -3 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 9 years ago

Sounds like you have a set plan and direction to take.

Do It To It.

[-] 2 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 9 years ago

OK, i will in the next day or two, unless incman wants to do it first


[-] -2 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 9 years ago

Always best to strike when the iron is hot - sounds like you have hot iron.

[-] 2 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 9 years ago

You're right, i know, but i just have some other things to do right now, and i do want to research it thoroughly so i don't look stupid

There's an openng for you lol

If it is not up by tomorrow night, you have my invitation to put up a thread on what a slacker Odin is, OK?


[-] -2 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 9 years ago

Nope I try not to be like that.

Good to have hot iron - better to have the pounding planed out.

Do it when you do it.

[-] 2 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 9 years ago

Thanks for the encouragement, and i will...do it


[-] -2 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 9 years ago

BTW - I never thought of us as adversaries. Just as individuals with different perspectives.

[-] 3 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 9 years ago

Replying here. I can picture that crash all to vividly. Stitches, anything broken?

One guy passed me on that little town road only a few feet away from where i was lying. I suspect he had been drinking and did not want to hang around as the cop was right behind him

Then the cop who followed him, seeing me lying on the ground with my bike lights on said, he didn't know what he was seeing at first

Anyway he met me at my home after I took inventory of myself, and decided I did not need to go to the hospital. If my nose had scarred which it didn't, it would be just one more life experience. That's all.


[-] -2 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 9 years ago


I had my neighbor ( brand new to the neighborhood ) take me to the clinic to have my front tooth removed from my upper jaw.

[-] 2 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 9 years ago

Replying here. We should all be "a work in progress," and when we stop becoming one, it's time to worry

"Feels best if the ice is covering solid ground - like a street." Yes providing you are not riding your bike on that "ice" in the dark

I know, a big duh?

Two blocks from home, after riding 13-14 miles that day, I took a spill, and was down before even realizing that I was falling...bleeding from my forehead...to my nose...to my knees and ankles


[-] -2 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 9 years ago

My big oops was not on ice - it was on a nice ( LOOKING ) mini-bike that popped it's fork and let the front wheel precede the bike - til the remainder of the forks planted solidly into the ground - and I kissed the pre-ceeding front wheel after traveling over the handlebars.

[-] 1 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 9 years ago

Good DK, i try using the right words, but do not always succeed


[-] -2 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 9 years ago

We are all ( ALL ) a work in progress - cradle to grave - and I believe - beyond. I can only walk on frozen water of a sufficient thickness. Feel best if the ice is covering solid ground - like a street.


[-] -1 points by DebtNEUTRALITYpetition (647) 9 years ago

By the way, I have done so much research on the this topic if there was REAL consumer attorney who wanted to turn the entire debt issue back against the wall street, I have found many issues that could win in court and cause easement's into the trillions of dollars.

[-] -1 points by DebtNEUTRALITYpetition (647) 9 years ago

It's the interest rate charges on consumer debt that is the biggest problem. The second biggest problem is debt collectors are getting away with way too much when they go to court over a debt.

Debt Collectors have false services performed, and the judge won't listen to a defendant unles a defendant can muster the money to file all the paperwork in an intelligent manner.

Paralegals are not allowed to assist unless they are affiliated with an attorney, and attorney's don't like to lose cases, so it is a vicious cycle.

You all should consider signing my Debt Neutrality Petition. http://www.change.org/petitions/congress-create-debt-neutrality-rights-for-paying-down-credit-cards-student-loans

All consumers who want to pay down their debts can do so with all interest rate charges being waived as long as their total consumer debt drops every month.