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We kick the ass of the ruling class

Call To Action - Join The Month Of Global Uprising

Posted 2 years ago on Nov. 1, 2011, 7:28 p.m. EST by OccupyWallSt

On November 1st, Israel organized a general strike to fight back against the global neoliberal machine.

On November 2nd, Oakland will join the month of global uprising with a city-wide general strike during which the people will converge on downtown Oakland to shut down the city and its port.

While these assemblies are calling for general strikes, they are also calling for much more. Schools, community organizations, affinity groups, workplaces and families are encouraged to self-organize to shut down their cities and rebuild their communities in whatever manner they are comfortable with and capable of.

Following Israel and Oakland's example, we join this month of global uprising. We stand in solidarity with those who are organizing the actions that are creating the fabric of our new movement.

It is time for us to come together and build a new world through the power of the individual and the community. We are not here to make requests of a corrupt political system - we are here to take our lives back into our own hands. We are not acknowledging subservience. There is no higher power than the power of the people. We are not asking for assistance. We are declaring independence. Our demand is not to those in power, it is to those individuals still silenced. Join us.

We are the 99%. We are not afraid. We are not waiting. We are working to make a better world.

Occupy Wall Street. Occupy Everywhere.

737 Comments

737 Comments


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[-] 4 points by DavidGabbard (12) 2 years ago

We need substantive amendments to the Constitution. The Constitution allows for that. This is not a rebellion against the government, but against capitalism and the corporate oligarchy. A government that purports to be democratic would never commit violence against the WILL OF THE PEOPLE, which is why I do not accept the heavy police presence and intimidation tactics being used. Stay strong people!!!!

[-] 1 points by NoDeceit (7) 2 years ago

So you are against Capitalism? Why?

[-] 1 points by 182blink (22) 2 years ago

if no violence is committed by those protesting then everything will remain calm. but if you harass the police and refuse to disperse or move, when told to, then be prepared for the consequences.

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 2 years ago

Yes its the Police who decide who can protest not the constitution.

[-] 1 points by 182blink (22) 2 years ago

contrary to your ludicrous idea, the police merely enforce the laws, statutes and ordinances that were promulgated by our elected representatives... and if you dont vote thats your problem

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 2 years ago

Yeah right and do you believe in Santa Claus.

[-] 1 points by 182blink (22) 2 years ago

no santa claus is a product of fiction...much like your supposed thought process

[-] 1 points by SocratesPhilosophy (231) 2 years ago

was going to comment but it looks like you got it under control.

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 2 years ago

WTF

[-] 1 points by landofthelost (9) 2 years ago

Unfortunately history tells us it's likely to get worse, a lot worse, before it gets better. You see, if the 1% gave two hoots about what happens to the 99% we wouldn't be in this predicament in the first place. I think this is why we hear so many people suggesting various ways to get their attention through financial means.

The 1% knowingly causing their fellow man hardship for their own gain doesn't bother them, so why would we expect a few, or hundreds, or even or thousands of protesters being killed on their behalf would be seen any differently than other problems that need to be taken care of during the course of business? Just from the financial perspective, many of the 1% stand to loose millions if only the tax code changes, which is just a drop in the bucket of what they'll be faced with if the changes that are desperately needed are to ever take place.

[-] 1 points by 182blink (22) 2 years ago

no one need be killed or injured if you act responsibly and within reason.those who advocate violence against the wealthy and corporations are opening a pandora's box..and will be crushed

[-] 1 points by landofthelost (9) 2 years ago

Within who's definition of reason? Seriously, I was in the first gulf war where we slaughtered people on the behalf of the big oil companies to keep their precious black gold flowing. There, in the Desert, on the front line, I watched nightly as 1,000lb bombs were dropped onto "enemy" troops, where less than half of the people decimated even had guns to defend themselves. Yet big oil had enough influence to get the Government to go along with it. No, there is no definition of "reason", or amount of reasoning I would expect from the 1% when their reaction comes.

There is also such a slim chance of any of the 1% accepting responsibility for any problems that might exist, or even seeing them as problems, that we are probably wasting our time trying to discuss it. But we have to at least try, no matter how slim the odds.

[-] 1 points by barb (835) 2 years ago

great post, keep reminding people of your experience over and over again until this reality sinks in. The masses are ignorant

[-] 1 points by 182blink (22) 2 years ago

seeing violence as the ultimate way to achieve your goal seems evident from your first post.then in your second post you claim to have been in the service and watched as people were killed and you did nothing but follow orders...guess you couldnt complain then or youd receive a dhd or a court martial. you were just like the cops you complain about except you killed people. and big oil will maintain its strangle hold as long as we drive cars,buses motorcycles,ride in airplanes and use every thing that is petroleum based...so dont use plastic bags and bicycle to work..they do it in china..but wait they have a pollution problem from all the coal they burn..oh well

[-] 1 points by landofthelost (9) 2 years ago

It seems we have a misunderstanding Mr 1%. I thought you were a reasonable human being until you showed your true colors.

The first post was from a 3rd party point of view and my opinion of what I see. I'm not condoning violence, nor am I expecting to or even willing to initiate violence. I'm just accepting that it will happen because the 1% (YOU) WILL only wait so long before STRIKING OUT with some made up pretense that YOU are doing "right".

Big oil could be big oil without needing to run the world. Large corporations can be large corporations without needing to shit on the rest of us. It's a choice YOU make.

As a decorated war veteran who served as a Nuclear Biological Chemical Defense Specialist with the forward command I would still welcome you into my home and be a gracious host, but everyone who knows me would expect you to be carried out in a bag if I need to defend myself or my family.

You should get your scrawny @ss off this forum and stop trying to rile everyone up. Your attempts to cause someone besides YOURSELF to start a blood bath do not belong here. Really, if you need to start something to protect your assets at least be man (or woman) enough to do it yourself instead of trying to goat others into doing it for you.

[-] 1 points by 182blink (22) 2 years ago

perhaps your 99% wont wait either..assuming it is 99%...and why dont you humor me with a response o great warrior...

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 2 years ago

The Police will not act responsible , just watch when this starts affecting Corp.bottom line. Their orders will be to crush us. So crushed one way or another. Might as well be prepared to fight back.

[-] 1 points by Concerned (455) 2 years ago

The occupiers are already affecting the "bottom line" only its not the corporations - its the small business owners whose streets they are obstructing.

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 2 years ago

And your point is? Small business through the Chamber of Commerce has supported everything the Right wing Republicans have been doing. OWS just hasn't built enough strength to affect the Big Banks and Corporations yet.

[-] 1 points by Concerned (455) 2 years ago

So the cafe that just laid off 10 plus employees near the occupation because of a drop in his business is probably a member of the Chamber of Commerce and therefore, the fact that OWS is directly responsible for the loss of those people's jobs is justified?

IF that is really your attitude, then I'm sure you agree then with the originators of this occupy movement's desire to "destabilize the economy" in order to "overthrow capitalism" and destroy the whole system?

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 2 years ago

In one Word......YES

[-] 1 points by Concerned (455) 2 years ago

Which is exactly why you do not represent the 99% despite your movement's attempt to co-opt everyone.

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 2 years ago

Sleeping with your Enemies is not being all inclusive. This discussion is over.

[-] 1 points by 182blink (22) 2 years ago

well then..i hope you have medical insurance or at least a burial plot picked out. be careful what you wish for...you little subversive

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 2 years ago

I don't wish for it asshole I just know the police.

[-] 1 points by 182blink (22) 2 years ago

if youre lucky you might get to know the police and the criminal justice system very well. and your adept use of the english language is highlighted by your inclusion of expletives..what an eloquent orator for the "cause"

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 2 years ago

DUH

[-] 1 points by 182blink (22) 2 years ago

did you spell that by yourself or did you need help?

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 2 years ago

Again no substance or argument, so attack the person. Child like behavior.

[-] 1 points by 182blink (22) 2 years ago

considering your last three posts, it is suggested you look in the mirror

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 2 years ago

again no argument, you've got nothing. your a Troll.

[-] 1 points by MakeThisWork (33) from New York, NY 2 years ago

Absolutely.

[-] 3 points by AkbarLightning (54) from Tillson, NY 2 years ago

whenever these ambitious statements come out from the Occupy movement many people respond with statements about money, about moving money, getting money back...reorganizing our money structures, creating new laws about money...what i love about Occupy is that it is not about money...because money is a symbol, and if what it symbolizes becomes corrupted, then the money itself loses all value...as it has...so, in solidarity with the message above...stop worrying about money and start opening yourself to remembering what money is supposed to be, an expression of honest exchange...the Occupation is the rebuilding of the trust that makes any civil society possible. and this may be mushy or too emotional for some people, and therefore uncomfortable...i wish i could help that, but i can't...love really is the only thing that is going to save our collective butts...and that kicks @ss!

[-] 2 points by SwissMiss (2435) from Ann Arbor Charter Township, MI 2 years ago

Ditto!

[-] 1 points by barb (835) 2 years ago

But it is through money by stopping them from getting it is the only way these unfeeling individuals will comprehend it.

[-] 1 points by AkbarLightning (54) from Tillson, NY 2 years ago

yes, and one way to stop them from getting it, is to reduce its social value, by seeking alternatives to a game that they control...we now have the technology to develop new means of exchange...to develop our own social currency, and in so doing redistribute the potential energy in our culture...what they have, in the form of money, are promises for man-power...but if we reject those promises, and demand that they have been made under false pretenses, and we take back the man-power that is rightfully ours, we actually strip money of its power, and thus take back our wealth...this is all symbolic, but in an information age, much of our political action will take the form of symbolic expression and education...

[-] 3 points by Frizzle (520) 2 years ago

I could think of one demand toward the corrupt system worth making:

"Stop attacking the movement with police brutality and other disruptive tactics."

[-] -2 points by r2D2 (-7) 2 years ago

I demand law enforcement crack the skulls of you idiots.

Occupy that.

[-] 1 points by therock (30) from Altona, NY 2 years ago

Violence begets violence. If you raise your voice in disagreement--nonviolently--do you welcome the baton? What is the change you fear? What would you say if we were having this discussion face-to-face? I'm a grandmother and a teacher. I want a better world for my grandchildren. Am I your enemy?

[-] 0 points by MarxLenin (0) 2 years ago

Hey, I like your style - not intelligent, but demanding - rough and tough and all that.

Could I also make some money putting out comments like yours ? Pls advice. What's the going rate per comment and who do I contact ?

[-] 2 points by Justice4all (133) 2 years ago

Need to ask a question, why are there so many folks on here who have conservative & tea party views? Guess it just goes to show you how afraid they are of actually having to share with the rest of us (persih the thought) All I'm saying is, I dont spend my days on Foxnews.com or tea party web sites--but maybe since some of you are on here trying to stop truth in it's tracks maybe some of us should head on over to your points of views sites and implement some truth and common sense into those areas. Now if you'll excuse me I'm heading over to one of those sites to tell the Fox news anchorwomen to stop dressing like whores, and to stop sleeping their way to the top (Gotta love capitalism!), then its on to rushlimbaugh.com to tell him to lay off the Twinkies and pills.

[-] 1 points by Concerned (455) 2 years ago

But wait Justice4all....I thought this movement represented the 99% and that all were welcome to join the discussion to come to a consensus? You're saying that conservatives and the tea party aren't welcome in the discussion?

[-] 1 points by Justice4all (133) 2 years ago

Not at all--Most of the comments from the conservative writings on here are get a job, or we all live with mommy and daddy so we don't know about "the real world", For debating that is constructive by all means that's good for all of us, but most of us make our own way in life (as most representing this movement do), and take our lumps in life as most due. Those who run the system obviously like it the way it is and don't want it changed because it suits their livelihoods. However, for most of us, we work very hard and contribute to society and know just how unfair this system is. I've worked a full time job since getting out of school 20 years ago, and know just how unfair this system has been rigged. Most of us desperate for change are in the same boat and have been waiting for many years for it to happen! There is such a terrible injustice going on out there that those who have run the show for so long could never possibly imagine. And it's no coincidence that so many are standing up against it. It's not because the fact their lazy or need to get a job, it's in most cases those who are like me and have been in this game a long time and are finally coming together and saying enoughs enough. So, I have no problems in conservatives being here (Although I dont really understand it), just most should get their facts straight and understand that the people involved with this movement have a much deeper and better understanding of it's workings and injustices then they ever will!

[-] 1 points by Concerned (455) 2 years ago

Well, we are in agreement then on some things. The system is off balance. People do need to have informed and civil debate and avoid ALL talk that is divisive - but I could point to just as many of the lefts vapid and inflammatory statements on this as you could the right.

[-] 0 points by Perspective (-243) 2 years ago

Once again hate filled statements. I thought by the new RULES that wasn't allowed here. I guess if your hate is directed at conservatives/Republicans it's okay though? Why do you call women you don't even know whores? Do you hate women? I think you need to reflect on the hate inside of you,it will eat you alive if you let it fester.

[-] 1 points by Justice4all (133) 2 years ago

Your right Im guessing your a woman (although I dont know) but judging by your comments Im just guessing. Sure I hate women sooo much that I would love for my wife (who I thought I respected) to go and dress in the tightest fitting outfit she has and see what she has to do to get a job interview with Fox and then see what she has to do on top of that to get the job. I certainly want her to act like an airhead and give up her self respect, and agree with the dominated male "perspective" on that unbiased (lol) channel, and certainly let the poison the spew, "fester" in her and turn her rascist, and becoming a money loving and grubbing anti human being. I must hate women just sooo much to let that become of her. Let's take a "perspective" on this, if the women on that channel had any integrity or were true journalists in any sense of the word (and there are many great female journalists out there), then I could maybe understand it. But when they get "dressed down' by someone lets say like Bill O Reilly or Glenn Beck and go he he he your so right Bill or Glenn that's so funny your so much more superior than me he he he--don't you think thats sets all those who truly fought for women to have some sort of equality these past 100 years or so back to square one? For millions of women to fight to raise their gender up and bring a much better sense of justice and respect to that gender to have it set back like these female anchors at Fox have is sickening! Maybe you should take a deeper "perspective" on just whats really going on here--or maybe its you that hates women, and where they are now in society--you must want it to be 1950's America again where the wife waits for her hubby to come home get his meal and pipe and slippers. (Typical conservative mindset). You are right about another thing--I guess calling them whores was a bit out of bounds--their more like high priced escorts. So my sincere apologies to them and for their making society such a better place!

[-] 1 points by Dave101 (1) from Oakland Park, FL 2 years ago

Well Perspective, it seems your the only one allowed to get anoyed HUH? The fact that the Tea Party is the ENEMY of this Nation could have something to do with the anger towards them, seeing how they have sided with the Dominionists on turning our Nation into a Christian Slave Theocracy with the Corporations as the State and we the people as the SLAVES of the CORPORATIONS! Yeah Perspective, why would that annoy Americans? Wait, that would mean OVERTHROWING the CONSTITITION of The UNITED STATES, Now wouldn't it Perspective? socrates philosophy should be talking to you about how you can get imprisoned for your actions!

[-] 1 points by Justice4all (133) 2 years ago

Good looking out Dave 101! Uh oh looks like you hate Christians now according to Perspective--dont feel bad I guess I hate women according to her/his point of view--guess we're in the same boat. These folks have becoming so controlled by the system that they don't want to look outside the box, and are very much afraid of shaking off that mindset which has come to control and dominate us all! Good to see that some folks like yourself don't look at the constitution like the 10 commandments as those deep seeded Christains do--that mindset is what has allowed us to become slaves. The constitution basically speaks against the society in which has been created for us, and when it becomes a kingship (Corporations), for the peopel to rise up and take back what is theirs. Let's face it there are no more lands to settle on for us to start over--we can't just pack up and say let's travel across the ocean and start over for that dream of true democracy--this is it--our last shot, and fortunately with all thats going on people are realizing it and showing we are going to fight to not let the last shot of freedom to be stolen from us! Take it easy my brother! Keep staying true!

[-] 0 points by Perspective (-243) 2 years ago

Still more hate. Why am I the enemy because I believe in smaller govt. fiscal responsibility (ie don't spend more than you take in.),personal responsibility? Why do you hate Christians?. BTW you still didn't answer any of my questions which usually means you can't.

[-] 2 points by sufinaga (513) 2 years ago

laughter is the best therapy! so let's have a GRINNING IN YOUR FACE campaign to LAUGH AT THE POLICE. laugh at them as these freemason thugs attack us! they are protecting the THIEVES that have ripped us all off with the nationally organised and coordinated subprime fraud INSIDE JOB.

[-] 0 points by Perspective (-243) 2 years ago

Now the freemasons are thugs? I really don't appreciate that. Freemasonry does more good for this country than you folks ever will. Why are you so filled with hate?

[-] 1 points by sufinaga (513) 2 years ago

freemasons are rebranded knights templar, a barbaric medievaal male patriarchy that controls the police and the banking system. it was the freemasons who organised the selling of subprime mortgages and the creation of the derivatives and their AAA credit rating. they have our money and we want it back.

[-] 0 points by Perspective (-243) 2 years ago

ROFLMFAO so now it's not Wall St. but the freemasons?

[-] 1 points by sufinaga (513) 2 years ago

it is all male-only hierarchies who are fascists who support the TYRANNY that includes the freemasons and christians and muslims. all stooges for the TYRANT and all pretending to be do-gooders among us but under the control of their pastors and lodges.

[-] 0 points by Perspective (-243) 2 years ago

Guess it's a good thing I'm studying to be a freemason.

[-] 1 points by sufinaga (513) 2 years ago

the freemasons are rebranded knights templar so study the origins of the secret controlling society that is controlling you just as christians are controlled by pastors and bishops, muslims by mullas all under the control of male hierarchies. these people are INCOMPATIBLE with the movement to establish DEMOCRACY and end the present medieval tyranny. so play your birth and death ritual mind games and be OUR ENEMY.

[-] 0 points by Perspective (-243) 2 years ago

Balderdash (I know but how often do you get to use that word?) You're just a conspiracy whacko. Although I'll bring you up at the next meeting since you have named yourself enemy.

[-] 2 points by Scott (6) 2 years ago

TheRevolutionCenter.com supports the Occupy Wall Street Movement and all those who help make it happen. TheRevolutionCenter would also like to thank those involved for keeping this movement peaceful, and for showing Republicans, and the rest or the world, what real American protests can achieve.

It doesn't get more American than this.

[-] 1 points by Concerned (455) 2 years ago

What have you achieved?

[-] 2 points by owstag (508) 2 years ago

Oakland seems an odd choice for such an ambitious, aggressive call to action (it's probably the most liberal city in the US). It would make more sense in NYC or DC, wouldn't it? It will also look really bad if the outcome fails to match the hype (i.e. "shut the city down"). What exactly would 'shutting down Oakland' accomplish anyway?

[-] 2 points by twisted (110) 2 years ago

Sorry to Break it to you

But if you succeed Israel loses

because your impotent Government is controlled by Israel


http://edition.cnn.com/2011/11/01/world/meast/israel-settlements/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

Israel to speed up settlement construction in Jerusalem, West Bank From Kevin Flower, CNN

The announcement from his office comes in retaliation for the U.N. cultural agency UNESCO's vote, a day earlier, to accept a Palestinian bid for full membership.

[-] 1 points by phasing (72) 2 years ago

This turns my stomach, netanyahoo proves he would rather and foolishly end hopes of peace, and choose evil tit for tat with this aweful occupation of palestine.the worlds voice was heard yesterday and instead of supporting it and saying yes I want peace he refuses just like the war criminal he is. How is this okay? Let Palestinian become abide by rules of un and if they lob rockets they can bbe punished like any other country. Israel is killing their economy by strangling the flow of resources and killing those that try to help, just ask Turkey. And our country supports them and backups their moves here? This childish behavior saddens my heart

[-] 2 points by captain (4) 2 years ago

how is any of this effecting the people in power? true if everyone stopped consuming all together it put a dent in there pockets and prove a point, but what would it change? they still have resources,money,and the connections to make your movement in vain. a good friend and myself speak of this subject often. so think if you had all this money and power what would you do in that mind set? you would protect it these people have been in these organizations of power for a long time, and unfortunately the only thing that seems like it would take the neccessary means to temporarely eliminate this cycle is by eliminating the corupt who have created it.

[-] 2 points by sylrse (38) 2 years ago

I came on this site just now to make a side note of a suggestion for a theme song for those in Oakland, now I see Israels' declaration. I'm near tears with the power OWS has sparked for everyone who has felt the repression. My suggestion feels frivious now, but the power of the song still rings in my head. So if you would please, look at the lyrics, and listen to the song of 'Black Parade' inspired by the 9/11 attacks. I'm not asking to make it the anthem of the movement, but when I think of all the soldiers of the wars, the civilians innocently slain during those wars, and all the people throughout the world who were forced to watch helplessly while their families died and their livelihoods ruined by the powers we now call the 1%, we must carry on. Please don't worry if you lose a day's pay- you will survive it- you could loose so much more if you don't let your voice be heard.

[-] 1 points by cookiemycookie (1) 2 years ago

Enigma - Return to Innocence is a good one.

[-] 1 points by sylrse (38) 2 years ago

So is 'out of the mouths of babes' ;)

[-] 1 points by wormholes (19) 2 years ago

How about this? God bless our planet Earth, World that we love. Stand beside Her And guide Her, Through this night With the Light From above.... From the first world, To the third world, Make it One World, Bright with Love! God bless our planet Earth, Our home, sweet home! God bless our planet Earth, Our home, sweet home. (sung to tune of "God Bless America!")

[-] 2 points by Frumious (10) from Los Angeles, CA 2 years ago

Let's switch "God bless" to "We all bless" and I think you've got something. Nothing against God, mind you, but this leaves it open to all. I'm sure She won't mind. :)

[-] 1 points by wormholes (19) 2 years ago

I deliberately chose "God" (a generic term) because it seems to me that universal energy (God, Allah, Maitreya, Imam Madhi, etc.) could best express Herself through a large group (99%) rather than a small group (1%). And afterall, humanity is an aspect of that energy, even if difficult to see. Hence the larger group's responsive possibilities. Such expression would be aided by a "mantra." "God Bless our Planet Earth" seemed a possible mass mantra - or at least an initial one. :-) Anger confronting anger only intensifies the negative aspects and separativeness that is at the heart of the 1% - and humanity - in the first place. Or so it seems to me.

[-] 1 points by MakeThisWork (33) from New York, NY 2 years ago

"God Bless America" was written as a WWII anthem to support the war movement by Irving Berlin. Woody Guthrie wrote "This Land Is Our Land" as a response because he felt GBA was too jingo-istic and us-versus-them. I tend to agree with him.

[-] 1 points by wormholes (19) 2 years ago

My thinking is a sorta "psychological aikido" - a spin on the self-defense discipline where the attacked makes no move until the attacker is aggressive. Attacking puts the agressor off-balance. The attacked maintains his balance, then uses the aggressor's energy against the aggressor. There is a lot of fundamentalists' "jingo-istic" emotions wrapped up in GBA - the original. My thought was by tweaking the words to include the planet yet retaining the tune, the emotions of the "fundamentalist-jingos" would be evoked against their will. Like Pavlov's dog, they would not be able to help having some emotional reaction, hopefully positive. Or if not, a great conflict would arouse which might cause them to....heaven forbid......think!

[-] 0 points by raines (699) 2 years ago

What's wrong with loving your country? GBA is NOT jingositic.

[-] 2 points by gpecunia (2) from Fredericksburg, VA 2 years ago

I really like that......"The beginning is near!"

[-] 1 points by spflhome (41) 2 years ago

If you really like to change things, please click the following link and start a campaign to get millions to sign it......Thanks.

http://www.change.org/petitions/members-of-congress-and-senators-fix-the-economy-and-balance-the-budget-now?pe=d4e

[-] 1 points by sam12345 (2) 2 years ago

fools, don't blame capitalism that has given u and us and them everything...along with corruption that we want to get rid off. think about the common order and the Free Market Democracy. where would head without capitalism, to the caves? Cabal has its answer... Think of the welfare states of the Nordics!

[-] 1 points by nsd72 (31) 2 years ago

... and why not do it under one FLAG or SYMBOL? let me explain:

I'm in London, been speaking to the occupy people here. I've worked for a decade in the field of social justice/wellbeing. Seems to me that although there are many voices here, there's a common thread that links all protesters: whether it's justice, greed, the economy, jobs, pay, the future... what this is really about is how we treat each other (& the world we share).

Remember the Peace Sign, & how by capturing the zeitgeist it attracted millions of followers in the 70s? Why don't we adopt a new symbol that captures today's zeitgeist that acts like a sort of umbrella for all our views?

This would give the current amorphous, multi-celled mass enough identity to bring some cohesion and more impact. But like the symbiotic jellyfish, you can hack it into pieces and it will survive... so they can't take it down and there's an underlying purpose and methodology that they can't dispute.

What's that identity? It's summed up in the phrase "I care about mankind and the world our children will inherit." And the underlying methodology is wellbeing-focused - because we all deserve wellbeing and improving wellbeing has tremendous social, economic and political consequences.

Not trying to sell anyone anything - just seems to me the 99% lack a uniting symbol so please come back to me with your comments. The symbol I propose is called the tocamu (see tocamu.com) and you can read/copy & paste a one page sheet to your friends if you want to (click to enlarge to readable size): http://www.tocamu.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Unite-Letter.png

Wouldn't it make sense if this army marched under one flag?

[-] 1 points by nsd72 (31) 2 years ago

Did anyone see THAT letter from a Wall Street worker? Here's my response: http://www.tocamu.com/?page_id=5665

[-] 1 points by gavindouglas (2) 2 years ago

religion isnt the issue quit attacking your friends and fight your enemy! Religion didn't cause this problem stop treating it like "if we separate the church from the state... Maybe it will get better" no we are all equal reguardless of religion, race, skin color, or sexual orientation! that is an important issue but is not the one at hand religion didn't make capitalism so quit attacking it before you bring down everything for stupid division of people if the Guy standing next to you in OUR occupation reading the bible or something so what. It means nothing about what the occupations about WE HAVE TO STAND TOGETHER to overcome this!!!

[-] 1 points by gavindouglas (2) 2 years ago

I feel that the balance of religion is an important aspect in todays government yes but the main issues aren't oriented at the problems of religion in government but at the greed and selfishness of the country we live in by allowing ourselves to be controlled almost solely of capitalism Theodore rosevelt the president proposed the second bill of rights to witch many other countries around the world today have taken with the exeption of the UNITED states we the people always need to keep our rights in mind for fear of allowing others to take them from us let it be a lesson that you can only trust other people so much because power is a drug that blindfolds reason and throws it in the trunk wisdom comes with experience just because your young doesn't make you any less wise just remember the experience and always learn to grow from it this just hows us we got carried away with false words and two faced actions that government works best when closely intertwined with the citys and states they govern so that what goes on honestly affects the people in government honest care for what they do and how they do it

[-] 1 points by justanumber (1) 2 years ago

should not the president , congress and the entire political bodies also be protested? after all they've sworn to uphold these rights that are being trampled on...they are the ones responsible for the bailouts of these corporations and banks...they need to be held accountable to the fullest extent of the laws they themselves are breaking. the corporations set up the political parties, and the politicians in turn pass laws to keeps the corporations in power

[-] 1 points by jflaugher (2) 2 years ago

I only have a question: Can we follow Oakland's example and organize a nationwide general strike? I think we should. If that happened, we would have the 1% by the balls.

[-] 1 points by jflaugher (2) 2 years ago

I only have a question: Can we follow Oakland's example and organize a nationwide general strike? I think we should. If that happened, we would have the 1% by the balls.

[-] 1 points by beckyherman (2) 2 years ago

THERE CAN BE NO COMPARISON BETWEEN ISRAEL'S PROTESTS AND THE OCCUPY WALL STREET PROTESTS UNTIL ISRAEL ACTUALLY BECOMES A DEMOCRACY. Right now it is not a democracy within it's borders, clear proof from simple research of how Palestinians in Israel are treated, and in the occupied territories it is practicing blatant illegal territorial conquest and the worst of war crimes and terrorist activities. I want what Jimmy Carter wants, "Peace, Not Apartheid." Unfortunately, what we see now is apartheid.

I am a proud and peaceful American who stands by these views and wishes for true equality and justice for all people, regardless of their religion and their nationality.

[-] 1 points by beckyherman (2) 2 years ago

THERE CAN BE NO COMPARISON BETWEEN ISRAEL'S PROTESTS AND THE OCCUPY WALL STREET PROTESTS UNTIL ISRAEL ACTUALLY BECOMES A DEMOCRACY. Right now it is not a democracy within it's borders, clear proof from simple research of how Palestinians in Israel are treated, and in the occupied territories it is practicing blatant illegal territorial conquest and the worst of war crimes and terrorist activities. I want what Jimmy Carter wants, "Peace, Not Apartheid." Unfortunately, what we see now is apartheid.

I am a proud American who stands by these views and wishes for true equality and justice for all people, regardless of their religion and their nationality.

[-] 1 points by nucleus (3291) 2 years ago

"It is time ..."

Thank you! This is the most succinct and defining statement of the movement that I have heard. For any thinking compassionate being, there can be no doubt what this means or where we are headed.

Demands recognize authority, and recognizing corrupt authority legitimzes tyranny. The old system will be abandoned, and a new one built from scratch on humanitarian and environmental ideals.

It is up to us to create the world we want to live in together. We are the change we want to see.

THE BEGINNING IS HERE.

[-] 1 points by Finance (11) 2 years ago

To protest the behavior of big banks, thousands have pledged to switch to small credit unions on November 5. Follow these steps to simplify the process. http://www.yesmagazine.org/new-economy/a-field-guide-to-closing-your-bank-account

[-] 1 points by nucleus (3291) 2 years ago

"It is time ..."

This is the most succinct defining statement OWS has issued. I have spent the past day reading and emailing it to friends and acq

I applaud the movement and all those working so hard to create a new world order.

[-] 1 points by handro (16) 2 years ago

Ain't nothing happening here folks. Keep camping out in your tents. The rest of us, the actual real 99% of the population that has a life and family and jobs and can't hang-out smoking dope in Zuchotti Park, we continue to live our lives. Aside from the news coverage, you're not accomplishing anything.

Instead of occupy, I wish they would change the name to "Draw Attention To WallStreet." Its more accurate. you're not occupying anything. There is no real action happening here. Sorry, marching down 14th St. in Oakland isn't going to change anything.

[-] 1 points by NoDeceit (7) 2 years ago

How does shutting the city down (which hurts small local businesses) help people get jobs? Are local business not part of the community?

[-] 1 points by engineer (1) from Los Angeles, CA 2 years ago

I love the cause, and the momentum this has gained in fighting corruption is exciting.

However, I think the protests should target ONLY the CORRUPT LEADERS of Wall St, Washington, and corporations. To say that EVERYONE who works on Wall St, or that EVERYTHING about corporations is evil misses the point, and gives the opponents of OWS a big fat stupid red herring to work with. This wastes a lot of time and energy, and makes a smart worthy cause look stupid.

Please keep the protests targeted at the right people, so as not to make unintended enemies of those who might otherwise join in to support the cause. Be smart! Go OWS!

[-] 1 points by aaa (18) 2 years ago

great move with bank of america,they withdrew their debit card fee afraid this movement would cripple them.we have the power, many people will follow a well thought out target for boycott.pick a bank or corp.that has shown they care more about their bottom line and bonus money then fair and honest dealings with the american people and call for a nation wide boycott,this will work.once you have a measure of the people who are behind you the direction can change to the next election.if you start a vote out every incumbent plea until solid no loophole laws are in place to keep special interest money from paying for elections and those elected doing their biding those in office will only have one term and gone.they wont pass anything on their own when the money that got them elected is controlling their votes.it is a fast peaceful way to show our anger at what this system has become.

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[-] 1 points by Vostok123 (1) 2 years ago

END THE FED, this is the solution to put an end to the control system of the Rothschild Zionists.

Money eaters and drinkers of oil.

[-] 1 points by Kozz (9) 2 years ago

Its a jewish conspiracy!

[-] 1 points by ronincal (3) from Huntington Beach, CA 2 years ago

I like this idea. In order to make it happen, however, I believe we must overcome the overwhelming power that is wielded by the less-than-1% who hold an inordinate amount of wealth. My suggestion is to consider actions such as a massive boycott of surgically-targeted corporation (in particular, one of the too-big-to-fail financial organizations) to force this change. With the power of the internet, it seems that this is doable. For example, if large numbers of people were to move their funds from, say, BofA, to a locally-controlled bank or credit union, I believe that would not only cripple the "target" corporation, but also send a chilling message to the entire financial industry. An industry that is controlled by leaders who I believe are unabashedly arrogant and corrupt but totally legal (thanks to their control of our government leaders). The power of big money has become so complete that, in my opinion, it must be challenged by the collective power from millions of small-money advocates of this cause. I respect the OWS movement and I am on-board (I participated in the 10/5 march in NYC). However, I believe that demonstrating is not enough. In my view, we need to begin taking non-violent action against the powerful (but not invulnerable), "less-than-1%" who have virtually shut down Washington and our democracy. I am willing to devote time and resources to such a venture, but I don't know where to start. Are OWS supporters interested in something like this? (Or maybe it's already underway -- if so, please post a link so I can join the campaign.) Ron Retired USMC Viet Vet in California

[-] 1 points by BeingUsed (3) 2 years ago

Since I am not of the 1%, when was I asked if I was part of your "99%". I was not and you are using me without my consent. You already practice the same tactics you bemoan. You have no idea what you seek. Your movement is now nothing but a prostitute for the media and its agenda. False supporters shake your hand for a photo op. Have all your mirrors cracked?

[-] 1 points by enigma888 (5) 2 years ago

Americans are afraid of freedom and make a mistake thinking it scientific, financial or material. Where are the new leaders that are defining the plan for once this movement takes over? Why is there so much "anarchy" in the dialogue, and what will be done with the millions of variations on governance coming from all these free people. What happened to the original plan to infiltrate and change from within, as all other social movements have had to adapt to in order to have a lasting affect? Depose those leading, certainly I agree, replace them with who though, as in all commercial interests legal or otherwise, remove the head and seven more grow to replace it.

I read the "strategies and expectations," and see nothing that would work as a replacement for our existing systems, just complaints and rhetoric, and I'm very open and liberal minded. When I sat with Occupy Seattle, there was only constant noisemaking, anarchist pamphlets, and absolutely no leadership. Are we all supposed to accept that our selfish and warlike ways will all be resolved with the removal of the existing systems? Really??? And who will police us when everyone goes to working "freely" and goods are no longer predictably on shelves and services are not provided according to schedule? Are we really to believe we will all just chill and relax?? Please people!!! All organisms must adapt and through the proven tools of evolution, change from within. Watching anarchists get arrested is only proving that the generation of the 80's raised a generation wholely focused on comfort of self as a measure of success in life instead of strength of character, perserverence, and determination to succeed in spite of all odds.

Stop laziness, now there's a cause!!! That's the only way this uneducated high school dropout was able to start my own company and succeed as a national consultant afer a successful career rubbing elbows with those Wall Street dogs! You want to win? Change yourself and move above this stupidly materialistic point of view, as IT is the real trap!!

Law will not accomplish what people are not already compelled to do.

[-] 1 points by BeingUsed (3) 2 years ago

"we are here to take our lives back into our own hands"

But you acknowledge no subservience. Then, your life is already in your own hands.

Stop using people like me in your slogan, this "99%". You do not represent me and I am not of the 1%. You use me without my consent, yet this behaviour is what you abhore correct?

Now you see, in part, why this movement is nothing more than advertising dollars to the news outlets and to print. You have become the new prostitute and you cannot even see in the mirror or notice this irony.

Good luck, you have real work ahead of you and when that work is called upon let's see who is still in your garden.

[-] 1 points by BeingUsed (3) 2 years ago

"we are here to take our lives back into our own hands"

But you acknowledge no subservience. Then, your life is already in your own hands.

Stop using people like me in your slogan, this "99%". You do not represent me and I am not of the 1%. You use me without my consent, yet this behaviour is what you abhore correct?

Now you see, in part, why this movement is nothing more than advertising dollars to the news outlets and to print. You have become the new prostitute and you cannot even see in the mirror or notice this irony.

Good luck, you have real work ahead of you and when that work is called upon let's see who is still in your garden.

[-] 1 points by harbek2000 (30) 2 years ago

the time is now

[-] 1 points by HarpoMarx (6) from Brooklyn, NY 2 years ago

If you take away all of the money from the "Top 1%", won't that mean an upward shifting of those below, thereby making them the "Top 1%"? Would that mean you would protest them as well? This could be a very long protest!

[-] 1 points by HarpoMarx (6) from Brooklyn, NY 2 years ago

If you take away all of the money from the "Top 1%", won't that mean an upward shifting of those below, thereby making them the "Top 1%"? Would that mean you would protest them as well? This could be a very long protest!

[-] 1 points by HarpoMarx (6) from Brooklyn, NY 2 years ago

If you take away all of the money from the "Top 1%", won't that mean an upward shifting of those below, thereby making them the "Top 1%"? Would that mean you would protest them as well? This could be a very long protest!

[-] 1 points by blocade (81) 2 years ago

Under the constitution we are supposedly guaranteed the right to life, liberty and protection, we are not guaranteed any of this under a capitalist system.

Even if you are willing to work 40, 50, 60 hours per week in exchange for equal access and equal treatment, food, housing and good health you will not get it.

Capitalism requires cheap labor, capitalism in America thrived at the expense of slavery and oppression that continues today.

Every American that does not have food, housing, good health and protection can file a lawsuit against the federal government for not upholding the constitution.

When the economy is "poor" we are left homeless and without food (life) we are then forced to do what we can to survive and loose (liberty) the conditions under which we are forced to live are damaging to people (protection).

Capitalism is Unconstitutional

establish a true democracy, equal rights and world peace - http://wesower.org

no more lies and bombing of foreign nations to steal resources and impose our failed system of government.

join the discussion -- http://occupywallst.org/forum/capitalism-is-unconstitutional/

[-] 1 points by jerryhg (1) 2 years ago

A Possible Solutiuon

Let us call for an end to money An end to money will rid the world of greed and all its dirty little vices An end to money will bring about an end to poverty and oppression An end to money will focus the world to live for one another and not for self interest An end to money will unite the world for one common good An end to money will put an end to financial slavery An end to money will take the power away from the banks and wall st. An end to money will end lobbying governments with payoffs An end to money will end the drug trade and prostitution An end to money will eliminate insurance companies An end to money will end corporate greed An end to money will be the beginning of Freedom Imagine a world without money....... We all work for the common good of everyone We get back to our roots......we all learn to live off of our land Fresh food from our own backyards, no more processed toxic waste We build everything by hand and keep the air clean in the process We give people back their lives...... Families can be families again, our priorities will change No more homelessness, everyone will have a place to call home Imagine, set your mind free and believe We are the 99% no more rule by the 1% Take away their money and you take away their power! Power to the people, free the people, free the planet, no more waste

[-] 1 points by bestvue (2) 2 years ago

I think we all need to be very careful here. Are we "against the rich" or are we against the abuses that Wall Street perpetuated by taking bailout monies and using them to give executives, the authors of our downfall, bonuses? I think that one demand ought to be that those monies are returned where they can be; some are just gone. But execs could be forced to return those funds. I think that when you use catchy slogans without focusing on our objectives. There are the good rich out there, you know, and some of them are as upset about what has happened as we are, those of us who were misled by brokers and mortgage companies and who have lost our homes as a result. There are the investment bankers who took our money to invest and used it to create Ponzi operations; Madoff wasn't the only one, there were many others, in all sizes and in may places. We need to demand that the TARP monies be returned and redistributed and used as they were meant to be.

[-] 1 points by bestvue (2) 2 years ago

I think we all need to be very careful here. Are we "against the rich" or are we against the abuses that Wall Street perpetuated by taking bailout monies and using them to give executives, the authors of our downfall, bonuses? I think that one demand ought to be that those monies are returned where they can be; some are just gone. But execs could be forced to return those funds. I think that when you use catchy slogans without focusing on our objectives. There are the good rich out there, you know, and some of them are as upset about what has happened as we are, those of us who were misled by brokers and mortgage companies and who have lost our homes as a result. There are the investment bankers who took our money to invest and used it to create Ponzi operations; Madoff wasn't the only one, there were many others, in all sizes and in may places. We need to demand that the TARP monies be returned and redistributed and used as they were meant to be.

[-] 1 points by screwoccupy (1) 2 years ago

down with occupy what ever the hell it is im 15 years old and getting the best education possible at sturgis high school in massachussets and i think this is complete treason, i am your future we are the future dont protest dont shut down cities you are giving yourself a bad reputation wall street isn't corrupt they made there money because idiots like you were willing to comply, had no other choice, or were just stupid enough to play along i hope you all burn in hel youre already in limbo

[-] 1 points by aurelienpalo (1) 2 years ago

A song tribute to occupy wall street, from France : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3I8C7Ikpxg

[-] 1 points by Hmmmm (1) 2 years ago

I was pretty supportive of this movement and have been following it from the beginning, unable to join because I go to school and want to finish my education.

But reading this, I don't know if its just the way your phrased it or what but I think I have to step back. From my experience, people say things like this and then other people go out and bust window s and shit. Its called anarchy. You guys need to get your priorities straight. Do you want a democracy of equality, communism or anarchy.

"Down with the man.Power to the people. Shut down the city." Sounds a lot different than "Lets go on strike"

[-] 1 points by henoktg (66) 2 years ago

Are you sure ? you wanna strike with the Israelite? Who own the FED and run ponzi scheme and who held the US gov hostage. Are you sure?

[-] 1 points by tailor (4) 2 years ago

Big corporate trucks are devastating our roads and bridges.The Conservative Congressional Terrorists are sabotaging US Government and declared war with working class people. Conservative Terrorists are creating opportunity for our death and accidents on roads and bridges by opposing all construction needs. Our death is their profit. Public safety is in huge jeopardy and death is an eminent. In this situation the corporate conservative fascists must build their own roads and bridges or reimburse American people for all damage they are doing. How about every truck paying at least $ 500.00 for crossing any bridge in our country and $ 1000.00 for use of every 100 miles (public road ). Why we working people must build bridges and pave roads for the corporate fascist who even are denying our health needs. In true democracy every employer should be responsible for reimbursing employees for their educational and health expenses. They invest in machinery and tools but don't invest in human being. This is the biggest crime against humanity. They should be denied any business opportunity in our communities which they devastate and leave us with huge bills Pigs like Limbaugh must be denied use of public airports to land their private jets or pay at least $ One Million for landing his coffin in our communities.This pig depleted our health benefits only because of the conservative corporate fascist eliminated all we had and are paying his outrages salary. This racist hog must built his own airport and use own roads. He is persona Non Grata in our public places.He is American People enemy.We must occupy all roads, bridges, airports and other places being devastated by the corporate pigs who often are not even US citizens and hate American people. Many of them were devoted communists who wanted exterminate American People and shower us with their nuclear weapons. Today, they finance most of US corporations devastating our country by eliminating our jobs and transport goods made on other continents. Wake up people. Your future and life is in huge trouble.Occupy, occupy, occupy.Not doing this is stupid and unpatriotic. This is the II Civil War.

[-] 1 points by therock (30) from Altona, NY 2 years ago

Hello Fellow Citizens: I am an advocate for respectful civic debate. The purpose of such debate should be to achieve a better understanding of one another, challenge our assumptions, and clarify our thought. I am drawn to this movement because I have identified a set of problems, the most glaring of which is the corporate take-over of our democracy. I am a proponent of direct action and direct democracy in order to effect change. The discussion initiated by SocratesPhilosophy should be regarded as an opportunity to clarify the objectives of the movement, and RogerT effectively countered SP's point. I hope that we will challenge one another respectfully, and use this forum as an opportunity for growth. We need to understand even those who perceive themselves as our enemies if we want to work toward a more peaceful and equitable world. ronj and others, get past your anger and find a way to reach out to people so that you will truly be a respected opponent. Then, perhaps, people will truly listen to you.

[-] 1 points by 44mag (28) from Coventry, RI 2 years ago

Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure... than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat.

Theodore Roosevelt

[-] 1 points by aaronparr (612) 2 years ago

Hear hear! Well said.

[-] 1 points by LeeMcD22 (5) 2 years ago

This sums it up: See this great video short about Wall St banks and the financial crisis: "Shitty Shitty Bank Bank" --a theme song for the Occupy movement!

http://bit.ly/cpptOf

Also see: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Bank?: An Uncensored Investigation of the US Federal Reserve Banking Cartel--one of the most controversial institutions of our time...(Self-Serving its Country Since 1913)... http://bit.ly/u4Zfa5

http://www.youtube.com/user/BaitAndSwitchTV?feature=mhee#p/u/12/_M_Rh_fgKEQ

And then there's this eye-opener: The Real Housewives of Tent City (A Hot New REALITY Show-Global Depression Edition) --brought to you by the Wall St Banking Cartel: http://bit.ly/s43bRM

http://www.youtube.com/user/BaitAndSwitchTV#p/u/14/NH_WqjgoJLY

[-] 1 points by MakeThisWork (33) from New York, NY 2 years ago

Ummm... I love you for starting this, but it sounds like the extremists are taking over the group, much like the Tea Party. I can guarantee you the 99% is not for overthrowing the government, which is what you're suggesting. Massive and substantive reform, yes, but the country is too big to have our entire system replaced by finger waggling. You have an opportunity here, you have gotten the world's attention, you are changing minds, you are waking people up. Don't squander it by moving to extremist positions, thus proving all your critics right that OWS is just a lunatic fringe.

We need the change you've been advocating up until now. We need corporations back under the constraints they used to have, we need money out of politics (both the bribers and bribees) and we need the playing field leveled again so we don't have royalty and serfdom. What we don't need is to tear the entire system down. You won't like what replaces it. Consensus is easy to build when you start with a like-minded populace, such as the protesters at OWS. It doesn't scale well to an entire country.

You are holding the hopes and dreams of millions of people in your hands. Don't let them down.

[-] 1 points by Barefootin (33) 2 years ago

Law? Tracing the history of law and how we got here is an education anyone concerned about our once great nation needs to focus on. You're not quoting Law when you quote TITLE 18.

The law of the people was called The Common Law. It began with the bible and was further clarified with The Magna Carta. However on February 21, 1871, the wonderful bankers formed a Corporation. They gave it a name: THE UNITED STATES And within 6 years they created a new Constitution for their CORP that was almost identical to the organic constitution created by the founding fathers. They eliminated the 13th, Amendment which prevented "persons of nobility to hold positions of public office." In other words, lawyers, esquires, could not hold public office. Well they couldn't allow that in their Corp document.

From the date of their Corporate charter of the US, they slowly began their takeover. Every year new structures were put in place. Some were major events such as the creation of their central bank known as The Fed. Others are less known such as what happened when they pulled the plug on the great people of the nation in the 30's. While people stood in line to get bread, they began putting their scheme in place. The IRS, the Social Security system with our SS # and more and more controlling documents and structures.

June 5th, 1933, the Corporation declared it was bankrupt. Check: HJR-192 From that date on we have not had legal "money" in our country. It was the official creation of "debt instruments" and can be seen on every Note: "For all debts public and private"

Note also the "seal" of the Federal Reserve on the left side of these notes is clearly visible making that seal official. The Treasury Seal on the right side has a stamp across it such as ONE or TEN, making that seal void.

Once the Corporation was declared bankrupt, the game began of paying back the debt to the bankers, public vs. private, through the collection arm of the Fed, known as the IRS. They spent years in the 30's creating a "code" that was a mirror of foundational laws. This code became known as the UCC. Uniform Commercial Code. Are codes / statutes / regulations laws? Are they law of the common people or are they creations of Corporations that have nothing to do with those outside the Corporation?

If you work for GM or AT&T, you are bound by their Corporate rules and regulations. If you don't work inside those 4 walls, those rules do not apply to you.

I could go on... but once you wake up and realize the fraud, you can now begin to organize to turn this around, which hopefully is the true goal of OWS. The sovereign citizens unknowingly volunteered to be controlled by this Corporation through adhesion contracts. Your birth certificate was the first as your parents unknowingly signed the first contract which created a new entity. A franchisee of the US Corporation with your name in ALL CAPS.

Every time you signed a contract and admitted you were a US CITIZEN you furthered their hold on you. Drivers license, voters registration, etc....

Don't believe any of this to be true? Research any of the above. Look for The Act of 1871. Look up HJR-192. Go to the Dunn & Bradstreet site and discover The United Kingdom is a CORP, the US, the Patriot Act is a Corporation.... Your local town, County, Courts, Police... The police have one job: To increase the financial bottom line of the Corporation they work for. You "violated a code", an "infraction" as you never broke any laws. A crime requires an injured party or damaged property and without the evidence, there was no crime!

Let us now forget, We The People created the government for a specific purpose. Maybe it's time to go back to those founding documents and refresh our minds on the original vision, goal, purpose and spirit of the founding fathers was. Why was the Constitution and The Bill of Rights created? What is the Territory of the District of Columbia? Where is the Corporation of the IRS based? The Federal Reserve?

All this information is available online. Research, educate, and speak from knowledge instead of emotion, and this growing movement will begin to have some serious teeth to achieve the real goal of taking our country back!

It's time the sleeping giant awoke and all of us come home to our roots. Mother Nature. The vision of the sovereign American Indians. They knew no one could own the land. If they're following the news, they're probably laughing at the concept of people told they can't sleep on the ground!!!! No one owns the earth... We all share this beautiful planet. The greed of the super wealthy has created this insanity. The solution is first going back through history and looking at how we got here before we can resolve these issues.

Here's a great link to a recent video by Judge Napolitano:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ECjiZakJqAI

[-] 1 points by friolandia (1) 2 years ago

In Mexico the corrupt media giant TELEVISA wont inform people about this historical struggle by the people. Their corporartion is guilty of helping to mantain undemocratic regimes and serves the interest of the 1%. Please, help Mexico fight against this monster of disinformation

[-] 1 points by Indepat (924) from Minneola, FL 2 years ago

All over the place. why don;t you just focus on a few issues. Try to be everything and do everything and you'll accomplish nothing.

[-] 1 points by GreenIguana (36) from New York, NY 2 years ago

Someone please fix the comments section. For some reason "SocratesPhilosophy"'s posts end up at the top even though he posted 10 hours ago. Arent' the posts supposed to be chronological? Why is one person allowed to soapbox here??

[-] 1 points by SwissMiss (2435) from Ann Arbor Charter Township, MI 2 years ago

Unfortunately, the posts can move around if someone gives them an "up" or a "down", and they aren't in chronological order. I sure wish they were.

[-] 1 points by hmmm (52) 2 years ago

I'm a big fan of this movement. I think the system is very dysfunctional right now. It seems, to my untrained eye, that some greedy people up there have been taking more and more, bit by bit, encouraged by the fact that no one is stopping them. You know, like a dog getting closer and closer to the plate of food on the coffee table.

It feels like such a release that the public are standing up and saying "STOP". I'm not even an American citizen, but my heart is fully with you guys.

However, (and i have to point out that i don't know what your strategy and goals are - i don't even know where they come from), this event seems a little alienating. Rhetoric and grandiose statements can be very motivating, but i believe a writer can easily get carried away. Personally, i find the cool headed intelligence from earlier calls to action to be missing from this one. Like i said, i don't know your strategy/strategists, and i am as far from possessing a brilliant political mind as i can be, but i do find this overzealous rhetoric a little alienating.

Just my AU$0.02.

[-] 1 points by GreenIguana (36) from New York, NY 2 years ago

OWS has been dependent on many, including Democratic politicians who have supported the occupancy of Zuccoti Park. OWS has been living off donated food and using city transportation. OWS is not "independent." I would like to see more honesty on this webpage.

[-] 1 points by SwissMiss (2435) from Ann Arbor Charter Township, MI 2 years ago

Living off donated food and other items is much more representative of how things should be.... people helping one another and it NOT being about who's going to make the most money (a form of socialism that works). If they are using city transportation, they are paying for it and aren't getting it for free.

[-] 1 points by Justice4all (133) 2 years ago

We are all here on this planet for one reason. To have and live the human experience and give to each other the best of who and what we are to each other--and not for profit's sake. We are meant to breathe and take in this life in the wonder of what it truly is to be alive! Unfortunately because those who have decided to have this world be about money and financial gain, have set us all to live within those parameters of what they have chosen, rather than our rights given by God. The money we all have to make to survive, placated by their rules have weighed all of us down under water. But we have been given an opportunity to rise up out of that water and where we once where struggling for air are finally able to breathe again as a species. We will not ruin or miss this opportunity we have been given in our rebirth! Our true spirits are once again alive, and we will become the truest essence of what we were put here to be! And that is NOT simply machines that can make money.

[-] 1 points by SwissMiss (2435) from Ann Arbor Charter Township, MI 2 years ago

EXACTLY!!!

[-] 1 points by Yezdyar (2) from Fresno, CA 2 years ago

Woke up this morning to news that Bank of America has decided not to charge the $5 Debit Card fee...this is PROOF that Occupy Wall Street is having an impact.

[-] 1 points by socialsynergy (32) 2 years ago

The law is perverse and devoid of justice at the moment

Overthrowing the money systems is the duty of every God fearing or upright person whatever you believe- it is the duty of every government everywhere to do the same or the money systems will destroy your country (wherever you are).

The money system is the core problem globally. It fuels the markets, business, law, politics, wars, poverty,education - everything.

Everything that the money systems have touched has been tarnished. Every street, in every city around the world has been infected by this abomination. Every society has allowed this cancer to creep in and destroy the fundamental principles of every nation regardless of faith or political persuasion. The money systems does not care about what religion or political philosophy you believe in.They do not care about you or life.They are man made and the problems they create are man made to.

The money systems are a lie that few have been taught to understand. Think about them and how they operate and you will begin to see how and why our societies are crumbling.You will understand why nothing any government is doing right now will help.They don't lie to you but they are not telling you the truth.

They are debt systems. They are responsible for the destruction of life for hundreds of years in many ways.

Strip away the smoke and mirrors and the money systems are nothing more than a cheap two bit scam, a shell game devised in a back ally - nothing more.

Change the core or mechanism of the money systems and how they operate and we change our world. It is that simple. Forget wall street, business and everything else - target the mechanism the money systems work on and all the other issues will melt away.

Change the money systems and everything will change, how we think, how we behave, how we do business, how we live, how we educate, our laws, our politics - everything will change.

Change the money systems and poverty will be crushed overnight, business will innovate in ways that at the moment are imposable, the corruption that has become the norm will disappear. Our children will have a future and so will you.Hunger will become history. Politicians will be able to provide value to society rather than squabble over meaningless issues, with very few people satisfied.

If standing up for freedom, liberty and life is now a crime in America- the world has sunk farther than I thought and our situation globally is much more serious.

Governments have a duty to stand with the people - these systems are a national threat that are destroying your countries, your people, your future. The money systems are not an American made product - neither was slavery.

@SocratesPhilosophy - your legal ramble describes the conspiracy of the mechanism of the money systems - so when will the American and other governments act on the Law and go after the snakes that control and manipulate this beast? They are guilty of everything you have outlined.

If there is any justice left in America or elsewhere- prosecute the beneficiaries of the monetary systems; not the people - the life blood of countries being victimized by these vampires.

The mechanism of the money systems are a crime against humanity.

Occupy every street worldwide because we are all under threat.

[-] 1 points by Justice4all (133) 2 years ago

Well said socialsynergy! Money is the greatest falsehood ever forced upon man!--all money is debt and created from it, therefore it is all a lie! Keep fighting--it's changing can ya feel it?

[-] 1 points by CrackedEggs (6) 2 years ago

Seems to me, that some people cling on to the only life they know. Even if their ideologies, have been a proven failure.

[-] 1 points by Thisisthetime (200) from Kahlotus, WA 2 years ago

Keep Up the Good Work. Fair-ness.

[-] 1 points by skinny (44) 2 years ago

"It is all about the decisions we make. Seven billion people make quite a think tank, the best of the best.

Trust people, we got your back."

http://notetoanon.com/2011/11/01/occupy-decision/

[-] 1 points by dls101 (27) 2 years ago

I was always taken by the futility of making demands when we were trying to end the war in Vietnam.

[-] 1 points by TheMAX (2) 2 years ago

Occupation is a great first-step. BUT, why not SUE the Criminally Culpable of the 1%!? Bernie Madoff fell in Criminal Court. I would think that our Civil Courts system could bring the 'guilty' to their knees even easier than in Criminal Court! Think about it... the scams may in-time disappear if the culprit schemers are held accountable. (i.e. It's an everyday thing that another Drug Company joins a growing list of Respondent Litigants.)

[-] 1 points by joebroadhurst (2) 2 years ago

beautiful people !

[-] 1 points by Peteh (1) 2 years ago

Next step for dissatistied Americans is very difficult, but absolutely necessary. It needs to be shown clearly, that there are two sides of one problem. Americans are loosing jobs in favor of financial capital of big banks and contributing astronomic amout of money for wars on the opposite side of the world for who, for christsake? American policy has been absolutely suicidal in favor of big banks and the state of Israel. Americans are fooled very thoroughly and sophistically. But the danger is great - you may be accused of antisemitism, probably nacism, you know what brainstorming has been performed in US and Europe too. It is quite laughable to read about following Israel example in the article, it leads to nowhere, this state is absolutely unsurvivable on its own, it makes suicidal policy to all arab world and is able to do so only with suicidal policy of US. Cut off them for the sake of America. There will be no big problem for Israel actually, they are relatives with Arabs, semites both, goog merchants, they make some sort of deal very guickly.

[-] 1 points by DonaldRay (2) 2 years ago

America is not a democracy. It is a plutocracy. A plutocracy is a system in which the moneyed (the rich and corporations) make the laws and control the lawmakers. The recent Supreme Court decision (Citizens United) which defined giving unlimited money for political ads as part of freedom of speech only accentuated that system.

The rich pay politicians vast amounts of money for their campaigns and in return they get favorable exemptions or credits in the tax code. This is bribery and corrupt, and is integral to our entire system of government.

The writers of our constitution, fondly called our “founding fathers”, feared a true democracy because they believed that if everyone had the vote, the poorer voters would vote to take away from the rich and thereby limit liberty. To make sure that didn’t happen they limited the vote to rich males – to vote a male had to own 40 acres of land. This system of giving control of our government to the moneyed continues today.

[-] 1 points by DonaldRay (2) 2 years ago

America is not a democracy. It is a plutocracy. A plutocracy is a system in which the moneyed (the rich and corporations) make the laws and control the lawmakers. The recent Supreme Court decision (Citizens United) which defined giving unlimited money for political ads as part of freedom of speech only accentuated that system.

The rich pay politicians vast amounts of money for their campaigns and in return they get favorable exemptions or credits in the tax code. This is bribery and corrupt, and is integral to our entire system of government.

The writers of our constitution, fondly called our “founding fathers”, feared a true democracy because they believed that if everyone had the vote, the poorer voters would vote to take away from the rich and thereby limit liberty. To make sure that didn’t happen they limited the vote to rich males – to vote a male had to own 40 acres of land. This system of giving control of our government to the moneyed continues today.

[-] 1 points by kylie1 (1) from Los Angeles, CA 2 years ago

But wasn't the Declaration of Independence an overthrow of government? Didn't we become the United States due to "treason" and overthrowing the government of England? But now, we are not allowed to replace our government

[-] 1 points by Anarchitect (20) 2 years ago

The Best day for a general strike this month might just be Black Friday. Imagine if retail workers walked out en-masse on the biggest shopping day of the year! That's ok, we'll just reduce demand by not showing up as shoppers, either!

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[-] 1 points by bigraddish (1) 2 years ago

I am sending up a trial balloon on this issue: Homeowners who are underwater and living in states that do not have anti-deficiency statutes should push for a national anti-deficiency statute. This would force the banks to write-down the difference between the loan amount and a home's actual value. It would prevent banks from taking people's homes in foreclosure and then forcing them into bankruptcy. There is a facebook page called National Anti-Deficiency Statute Supporters at http://tinyurl.com/3nz2u8b for anyone who is interested.

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[-] 1 points by freeows (84) 2 years ago

Call to Action - move your money!! Away from banks!! The targeting criminal banks movement is gaining heat! More and more people I have talked to are telling me they are moving their $$$ from banks to credit unions. You know which are the MAIN criminal banks are - Chase, Wells Fargo, BOA, Cities ... Well you know what to do. Even you cannot close them totally, at least move big chunk of your $$$ to credit unions or just keep cash somewhere safe. BTW, how much interest rate we are getting for god sake!! We can't take this shit anymore! We must stop this shit that banks, corporates and government have been shoveling into our throat for a very long time.

[-] 1 points by Martin (1) 2 years ago

In the US, so far, these have only been "unauthorized" demonstrations. There is no real action, just the expression of the desire for real action. The "1%" are comfortably betting that this will fizzle out on its own, +/- a little police action. With winter looming, occupiers even more discouraged to stay put.

What we need is REAL action. Not only take the streets, as we have, but take the buildings power emanates from, and, MOST importantly, the individuals themselves, and force them from power. Prefereably without bloodshed.

Perfect example: the CARNATION REVOLUTION. look it up, Inform people about this revolution, give them a template. This should be vital info, to be spread to as many people as possible. WE NEED REAL ACTION.

[-] 1 points by TTTTT (66) 2 years ago

GET THE RICH OUT OF POLITICS AND GOVERNMENT

A solid first step in fixing our economic and political woes is to disqualify any person worth more than three million dollars, regardless of political party or affiliation, from holding political office, occupying a civil service position or holding a judgeship. The rich are too corrupted by greed to be of any benefit to the community generally or be trusted by the American people. Putting the rich in government or the judiciary is like turning over the reins of power to a bunch of felons.

The American middle class, the true creator of jobs and wealth, should control the government for the people. The advent of democracy was the cradle of capitalism and democracy must still prevail before the greed of the already wealthy completely destroys our democratic way of life, economy and values.

The foundation of our nation is not capitalism but democracy in the form of a Constitutional Republic. Capitalism is nowhere even mentioned in the American Constitution. Our ancestors fought in the American Revolution for American democracy, not for rich Americans.

Capitalism is a tool of democracy to generate wealth and prosperity for all. Democracy should not be the tool of capitalism to generate wealth for a few. Capitalists have beast-like qualities and capitalism itself is a beast that must be harnessed to pull the plow for the well-being of humanity.

Now is an historic opportunity for hard-working, inventive and creative middle class Americans to assert their majority rights against a corrupt and ineffective elite who have brought the country to ruin.

Good Americans need to oppose the prevailing culture of greed at every step.

Notes:

Wealth does not equal intelligence. Einstein was not rich but he was miles smarter than these clowns who pretend to be geniuses because they have or control money. It is the resourceful but duped middle class that keeps these parasites rolling.

To clean up political America we need to clear the lobbyists out of Washington and all government circles, so rational decisions replace greed as the motive force for change. We need strict term limits for all politicians so that there is a continuous flow of fresh ideas in all policy making arenas instead of old, stale and corrupted views of the way things were. The end of private financing of elections would permit the best candidates to compete for public office without ties to organizations who could care less about the public well-being when it conflicts with their profits.

The means are apparent. We need to defeat politicians who disagree with these principles (and who are in the pockets of the super-rich) and only elect politicians who agree to enact this vision at the earliest conceivable moment. The tenets of this position are straightforward and understandable and may constitute a guide for the American middle class without being co-opted by agents of the wealthy, who would corrupt this platform for the benefit of their masters.

Historically and presently, it is neither healthy nor desirable for the rich to make policy decisions affecting the public. Individuals must choose between a life of narcissism in pursuit of personal wealth and fortune or love of the community and humanity. The two have never been compatible.

Nothing in this approach prohibits lovers of money from pursuing personal wealth or affects the existence of business, markets or rich people. However, they obviously need regulation of their greed to prevent excesses harmful to the community generally. And, above all, it takes them out of the political and policy making areas of government, which is where they cause the greatest harm.

Capitalism did not make America great. The American people, striving for freedom from oppression and the accidental abundance of untapped natural resources, made America strong. The credit goes to our pioneering ancestors and our industrious middle class, not fat cats on Wall Street.

[-] 1 points by wupta (25) 2 years ago

Many are skeptical and even put up snide and derisive comments. Look how far this has come. We are getting there.

[-] 1 points by rin1 (123) 2 years ago

http://knockknockrevolution.tumblr.com/post/11573860774/why-occupy-wall-street-flyers - Help convince people to become occupiers by using these talking points!

Hand/send Out Flyers to non occupiers! Spread the word!

[-] 1 points by stevenkatz (2) 2 years ago

Do we wanna city strike also in NYC?

[-] 1 points by aavaughan (7) from Brooklyn, NY 2 years ago

"build a new world"? You're losing me OWS. Nothing will change with this kind of rhetoric. And it's a shame because we have a lot of things to fix.

[-] 1 points by Justice4all (133) 2 years ago

Q:What is the difference between a vampire and this current system that's been created for us? A: A vampire at least has a heart you can drive a stake through to kill

We will find a way to kill this system, we know it is heartless, but it can and will be done away with!!

[-] 1 points by Hicard (30) 2 years ago

The greater fears fueling the Obama regime to push for these new “Police State” laws, Minister Gatilov says, is due to the growing “Occupy Wall Street” protests sweeping across America that which each passing week are beginning to resemble the Argentina economic crisis and collapse of 1999-2002 that swept that South America nations oligarchs from power, put many of their former politicians, bankers and military leaders in jail, and has led to the one of the greatest economic recoveries in modern history

taken from here:

http://www.whatdoesitmean.com/index1535.htm

[-] 1 points by blocade (81) 2 years ago

Occupy Christmas

it has been hijacked by capitalists, take it back, this year give love, compassion and hope for world peace & unity. Come together and build an advanced civilization.

let this small gesture send a clear message to the world that we are going to deliver ourselves from evil, we ARE going to build heaven on earth.

understand that anyone against unity, world peace and a true global democracy is evil and afraid of losing something, understand that we will all lose some "things" but will inherit the earth.

http://wesower.org

[-] 2 points by PincheCabron (131) 2 years ago

Occupy the Moon!

Lots of wide open land ripe for the taking by pioneers, plenty of free parking, all the moon dust you can snort, and what a view!

[-] 1 points by Wheels (1) 2 years ago

Maybe this is another coal in the fire but, It's not only Wall St., but the money "Pro" players make..Be it baseball, football, and the almighty GOLF.....CHECK OUT THE EARNINGS!! Crazy money, where does it come from. I can't bring my kids to a stadium (field, park, museum...???) Check out this bit of info http://sports.yahoo.com/sportsminute You can give me a shout at 'iimctjm at yah** dot com" - hope to hear from you PATRIOTS.. Peace...\

[-] 1 points by johndenton46 (5) 2 years ago

The international flavor of this strike is already pretty cool.

[-] 1 points by Waldo (5) 2 years ago

This is our world, the people's world, and it was a big mistake allowing these "leaders" to take control. We realize our mistake, and now we aim to correct them. The 99% will prevail. We will not give up. Let's take back our lives! Lets take back our freedom! Lets take back our world!

[-] 1 points by nich (57) 2 years ago

Demands schmands. Don't you get it? This is a new paradigm. People of the status quo have to know first of all that there is a group of people who do not accept their validity as leaders. Once they hear demands they will get into gear and make sure that they do not happen. That is what they have always done, that is why you are here. Do you really believe that they are going to hear you?

They do not even know why they do the stupid things that they do. You really give them too much credit if you think demands are going to even be understood. At the same time you underestimate their entrenched power.

It is hard enough to create a mass protest without fracturing the consensus. So far, OWS has it right in this statement of strategy. You have to have enough strength to keep yourself from wetting yourself or worse with your own agenda. That selfishness and 'me, me, me-ness' is what got this country to this point of dysfunction and chaos.

You will have plenty of time to work for your own goals, attract like minded people and enter a real marketplace of ideas.

[-] 1 points by Adam (116) 2 years ago

If you are paying a mortgage to the bank with all this interest, so that you actually pay for your home 3 times over by the end of the deal, and the bank actually owns the property until you pay it off, why doesn't the BANK PAY THE PROPERTY TAXES????

[-] 1 points by SayNO2GovInc (99) 2 years ago

Important Message to All People by Say No To Corporate-America

The 99% is PEOPLE The 99% People are NOT a party, not a Democrat or Republican, just PEOPLE

OCCUPY is not about Left or Right, just PEOPLE across the World.

'OCCUPY' is people standing up [for the 99%] against a Government that does NOT work for the People. Unless you are a globalist, this government does NOT represent YOU, regardless of your views. We the 99% have got to stick together because,

UNITY is the ONLY way the PEOPLE will ever win against a government that has and will continue to: Bail out banks... that evict PEOPLE ... Bomb for war profiteers... that kill innocent PEOPLE... Occupy for oil... so the globalists can profit from wars... Take freedom from us ALL

We are just beginning to tap in to our great power of UNITY as we Occupy but as we move forward, it is CRITICAL to know VOTING IS RIGGED in America! The oligarchs rigged the voting system so the oligarch's puppets stay in power! It's not like we vote for the CEOs, so we have to remove their puppets. Rigged voting means there is probably NO chance of restoring democracy through voting... it's not like they'll just stop cheating. Voting is certainly a peaceful solution and I love peace. If WE make any demand at all, I firmly believe WE should DEMAND EVERY VOTE COUNTS AS INTENDED! That seems a fair request and should certainly be agreeable to the entire 99%.

Luckily, there are solutions for that serious problem (paper ballots & verifiable receipts) but just like all the other solutions, they will NOT come from the corrupt lawmakers who bail-out, bomb and take away Rights. DEMAND DEMOCRACY!!!

Read more Say NO to Corporate America!! here: http://saynotocorporateamerica.blogspot.com/

[-] 1 points by PincheCabron (131) 2 years ago

Just say no to democracy. Say YES to constitutionality and a revival of the democratic republic.

[-] 1 points by 1025 (1) 2 years ago

Remember to be reasonable, peaceful, and not to give in too the socialist fringe groups that muddy the waters. Keep your goals clear, stay safe and keep occupying.

[-] 1 points by francofrog (2) 2 years ago

You know what are the characteristics of this movement? Occupy open space, thinly distributed over many localities and, last but not least, peaceful. Together, they spell "FAILURE". Being out in the open space means you are exposed to the elements. How long can you endure the extremities in the weather? Being thinly distributed among many localities means there is no critical mass anywhere. Being peaceful means you don't make any impact. You can't change the world by being passive. Revolution is no picnic or carnival. If you want to stage peaceful protest, why not just stay at home? What can be more peaceful than that? In fact we can have a nationwide strike when most of the working population agree to refuse to go to work but stay at home. This would be a very effective strike, minus the walking, shouting, placards and banners. Most of all, it is economical.

[-] 1 points by southernwoman (12) from Trussville, AL 2 years ago

Can't wait to see how it goes tomorrow. I send energy of success and safety to all those in Oakland. I am with you in Spirit. Keep on moving. You are changing the conversation and we are winning.

[-] 1 points by hairlessOrphan (522) 2 years ago

"We are not here to make requests of a corrupt political system - We are not acknowledging subservience."

Holy shit, who wrote this? Someone out-of-their-head ignorant is leading this discussion. Is that what people think is the purpose of governance? The codification of state dominance-people subservience?

Someone please tell me I'm misreading this.

[-] 2 points by Drekar (8) 2 years ago

Could probably be worded better... As far as I can tell, this is not a war on government, but rather a war on the corruption that has left many feeling they have no say in the process. This sentence is an emotional appeal, intended as a codifying call to give people who normally may feel timid the strength to voice their opinions and call for ethics. And one thing to remember is that this website does not even claim to be the official voice of the movement. If you want the actual voice, there is probably no substitute for going down down and participating.

[-] 1 points by therock (30) from Altona, NY 2 years ago

Thanks, Drekar. Clarification appreciated. C'mon Folks. #1 Strive for precision in thought and language #2 respectfully ask for clarification, #3 understand that some folks are new to expressing themselves in this domain. #4 Be patient #5 Be cool, AND #6 if you hate these ideas so much, why are you participating in the "conversation." I don't mind someone challenging assumptions or reasonably testing the ideas offered here. What I do object to is toxic rhetoric that does not yield a true meeting of the minds. Are we really enemies? I don't think so.

[-] 1 points by hairlessOrphan (522) 2 years ago

You know what, if you advocate anarchy, we are probably enemies. If you advocate that the definition of governance is "subservience of the people," we are probably enemies. I'm just saying.

See, it's not that I hate you or anything. I'm not much for people-hating. But I absolutely hate the idea of this kind of intellectual laziness being in a position to define political thought. So consider this a challenge to think harder.

[-] 1 points by therock (30) from Altona, NY 2 years ago

I'm having a hard time understanding how all of these ideas translate into anarchy and intellectual laziness just because you disagree with them. Your tone is antagonistic. Win over others with some substance.

[-] 1 points by hairlessOrphan (522) 2 years ago

Really? You don't see defining a state as necessitating people's subservience as anarchistic? Or intellectually lazy?

I don't think this is bad because I disagree with it. I disagree with it because it's bad.

[-] 1 points by therock (30) from Altona, NY 2 years ago

I think the original writer was trying to describe the current system which functions as it does through complicity--obedience in the sense that they obey the rules put in place by those in power who, though they are supposed to represent the people's interests, don't. Do you agree that most people's interests are served by our elected officials? I have to say I don't. I think this is where I'll leave this conversation, unless you can give me more information about your point of view to respond to. Thanks for giving me feedback. Oh, by the way--your screen name is clever and leaves much to the imagination. Peace

[-] 1 points by hairlessOrphan (522) 2 years ago

"By definition, imposed order is unstable. It must be forcibly maintained in order to continue to exist."

http://occupywallst.org/forum/GuestSub1/

Can we drop the charade, now? Does this qualify as an intentional framing of governance as an imposition of subservience?

[-] 1 points by hairlessOrphan (522) 2 years ago

"describe the current system which functions as it does through complicity" - Yes. But don't you see the problem with framing our complicity as subservience? What does this say about our relationship to power? Are we declaring that we would accept subservience to a government that isn't corrupt?

Because, at least here in the US, the relationship between people and power is exactly the opposite, and one of the main reasons we're in this hole is that we haven't understood that difference.

I don't make semantic quibbles. My problem with this statement is not that I need a beautiful PR. My problem is that someone speaking for Occupy fundamentally does not understand the relationship between people and power, or between people and governance. And in speaking for Occupy it casts the entire movement as one that fundamentally doesn't understand the system - where practice has deviated from theory, and why. And, in not understanding it but declaring we want to change it anyway, we are saying that we have no idea how serious the work is. And also that we're anarchists.

[-] 1 points by therock (30) from Altona, NY 2 years ago

It is unfortunate that that posting was imprecise and inarticulate enough to give that impression. However, I get the impression from the GAs that the movement is not anarchistic at all, but rather, committed to direct democracy. Anarchists don't painstakingly adhere to the rules of decision-making that these folks do. If you were to take the collection of postings as a whole, would you get the same impression. I'm a grandmother. Some of these protesters are kids who are just developing a political consciousness. I believe such brash proclamations will be tempered by experience and healthy interactions with others. I won't let my impression of the whole movement rest on one misstep. On another note, I'm looking at an acoount of the occupation in the NY Post and wonder. I wonder if all of this negative reporting is accurate, whether journalists are seeking out that which is malfunctioning, and ignoring that which is substantive. This news feed starves us of the real news. Of course, this is what the media always does, so we shouldn't be surprised. Nice talkin' to ya, Hairless.

[-] 0 points by hairlessOrphan (522) 2 years ago

Yeah, well, it's philosophically incoherent. They need a new copywriter. Declaring the existence of a non-existent subservience and then refusing to acknowledge it? It's like, "I'm not going to say you have a fish in your hat." First off, I just fucking said it. Second off, you don't have a stupid fish in your hat, but now everyone thinks you might. Wow.

"shut down their cities and rebuild their communities in whatever manner they are comfortable with and capable of" - emphasis mine. Sorry, but that smells like a war on government. I no longer have any idea which animals are running the zoo. Oh, wait, I remember: all of them are.

[-] 1 points by cciaranddunne (10) 2 years ago

If the strike is planned in the UK, I probably wont do it, because like no one at my school knows about it apart from like 20 people XD.

[-] 1 points by ithink (761) from York, PA 2 years ago

fuck yeah.. That's what liberty is all about, that is true freedom, that's what men have died to protect and the right that every man is born with. No one can take that away. No one.

[-] 1 points by Adam (116) 2 years ago

Millions of billions of dollars given to the stock market companies from OUR taxes did not fix the economy. It made it worse. $250,000 to every citizen would boom the economy. So simple and we can do it. It's all right there at Chase bank waiting for us.

[-] 1 points by FreeMarkets (272) 2 years ago

Okay, Mr. Chavez

[-] 0 points by blocade (81) 2 years ago

still waiting to hear what it is you are actually defending... lol -- you say silly, nonsense things and appear to have a limited scope of conscience and knowledge... i think you watch too much fox tv, lol

[-] 1 points by SwissMiss (2435) from Ann Arbor Charter Township, MI 2 years ago

I agree.

[-] 0 points by blocade (81) 2 years ago

can we also occupy all the foreclosed properties now? I don't feel like waiting, it is getting cold.

[-] 0 points by Adam (116) 2 years ago

Go ahead and claim yourself a home. If someone comes home, check their driver license. If they already have a home someplace else then they don't need another one. Take their keys and send them back to where they belong. There are a number of houses right here in the development where I live in PA that are vacant. Owned by rich assholes that don't need them. If my parents did not help me with my mortgage, I would be out there too. I would go live in one of those houses. Screw them.

[-] 1 points by sylrse (38) 2 years ago

I'm of limited education and struggled all my life. When I see someone such as yourself say, 'screw them', I know the anxiety and fear of decades of repression has premeated the 99%. We can rise above this hate. Support the cause.

[-] 1 points by Adam (116) 2 years ago

Same here. I had two jobs trying to support a child as a single parent for over a decade until I can't work now after surgeries. So I get to lose everything. Nothing left to lose here.

[-] 0 points by blocade (81) 2 years ago

sorry to hear that, so much for the whole right to life, liberty & protection the constitution claimed to insure...

such as scam, you could die homeless waiting for a capitalist system and "a good economy" to come around and save you...

we are going to build heaven on earth, there you will have help and access to as much education as you can handle, except you won't need to learn how to sell garbage to people, you can focus on real useful knowledge and be of help to humanity...

screw capitalism and all its evil and those who support capitalizing on the misfortune of others

[-] 0 points by blocade (81) 2 years ago

soon, we will reclaim the resources of the earth for the people

[-] 1 points by Adam (116) 2 years ago

I demand we shut down the stock exchange and force the bailout money to be given to individual citizens. I need my money back.

[-] 1 points by sylrse (38) 2 years ago

That's what I call an oxymoron statement. Money isn't the issue- livelyhood is. We've been trained to believe money solves all issues. What about the women in the work force who, after 40 years of trying to be respected and now see value of life more important than money? African natives who rely on bayous for food, yet broken oil pipelnes have destroyed their seafood nurseries- and this has been going on for years? There is more than money at stake here.

[-] 1 points by aavaughan (7) from Brooklyn, NY 2 years ago

That sounds absurd. If we buy nothing at all during the holiday season we'll collapse our economy. If that happens the people that will be hurt most are you and me and the rest of the 99%. Those of the 99% who own small businesses will die, and the larger, stronger corporations will absorb them and in the end it will only work out to their favor. Especially when you consider how terribly demoralized everyone who believed we could change things would feel. Boycott major corporations but support your local business owners. Money is not the enemy, greed is. This kind of talk is going to destroy this movement.

[-] 1 points by sylrse (38) 2 years ago

My appologies- I didn't mean to imply money isn't necessary. I was trying to state striving for money for the sake of having more money without seeing the value of community, or destroying communities for the sake of money, is the issue. There is a growing trend of educated women who are turning down higher pay because 80 hour work weeks are cutting into time for themselves and their families. Bayous in Africa have been destoryed by leaking pipelines- no local businesses there- yet their livlihoods have been destroyed. Maybe I should have said, 'the strive for making money, purely for the sake of more money'-?

[-] 0 points by Adam (116) 2 years ago

No but it is a short term alleviation of suffering. The people who paid taxes all these years deserve that money back. It should not have been given out to criminal companies.

[-] 0 points by Adam (116) 2 years ago

The bailout money that went to GM and and all the wall street banks could have been given right to the citizens to start their own businesses and pay off their mortgages.

[-] 2 points by PincheCabron (131) 2 years ago

That's the problem. No bailouts should be given to businesses OR citizens. Bailouts are clearly moral hazard.

[-] 0 points by Adam (116) 2 years ago

Income tax is a moral hazard. I want my money back.

[-] 1 points by PincheCabron (131) 2 years ago

No argument there. Guess which one of the presidential candidates is the only one proposing eliminating both the income tax and the IRS.

[-] 1 points by Adam (116) 2 years ago

The one that will not get elected. Ron "the oil company slave" Paul.

[-] 1 points by PincheCabron (131) 2 years ago

Where in the world do you draw that from? Paul has never to my knowledge promoted oil company interests (and I challenge you to provide proof, not just hot air). Surely, you are either confusing him for Rick Perry... or Sarah Palin, perhaps?

[-] 1 points by Adam (116) 2 years ago

No I took a day out one day and read all about Ron Lawl. I am susceptible to false hope just as much as anyone else. Everything he says is just perfect. If you listen to him talk, everything makes sense, and you think that you have actually found a politician that knows about the bill of rights, and somehow he made his way into the senate. How did a guy with a brain make it to the senate? I asked myself. Then I looked at his voting record. Anything to help solar and wind power he voted against. Anything to help the oil industry he voted for. He voted for all the pipelines and he wants to drill everywhere in national parks and in the ocean. He is a terrorist, he is a republican, he is a liar. If the oil companies allow him to be elected, he will give all our income taxes to the oil drillers just as all the presidents do. He will deregulate everything and allow wall street to monopolize us all. He will not legalize weed. He is just a republican. Time to wake up.

[-] 1 points by PincheCabron (131) 2 years ago

Which votes are you specifically referring to in this record of 19 years of votes?:

http://www.votesmart.org/candidate/key-votes/296/

[-] 1 points by PincheCabron (131) 2 years ago

Adam... you "agree with everything (he) says", but you call him a liar? In that case, what is your opinion regarding the gigantic failure to perform as promised by our current elected president?

[-] 1 points by Adam (116) 2 years ago

I agree with everything Ron Lawl says too, I am just wise enough to realize that he is a liar. Has any president in history ever done as promised? Even if they wanted to, they can't. The greatest president we ever had that died in office in his third term, FDR, never accomplished half of what he wanted in those 10 years. The special interest 1% lobby groups took the country. Ron Lawl is an employee of one of those interest groups. An oil serving one.

[-] 1 points by Adam (116) 2 years ago

The oil related ones.

[-] 1 points by PincheCabron (131) 2 years ago

Of course Paul voted against government subsidies for solar and wind power, he also votes against oil industry subsidies. Where are you getting your information. Provide links to his voting record, or stop it.

[-] 1 points by Adam (116) 2 years ago

I just googled his voting record. Just look at the stuff he voted on.

[-] 1 points by NOTROLLHERE (2) 2 years ago

I demand all the taxes ive paid over the last 30 years back also!!

[-] 0 points by Adam (116) 2 years ago

RIGHT!! People who are struggling to feed and shelter themselves do not deserve to pay taxes. Tax only the people who already own homes and businesses in several states. The rest of us are going to have to take our back.

[-] 0 points by blocade (81) 2 years ago

you won't need money anymore, we are going to do away with the monetary system. there will be nothing left to corrupt with or for.

We are boycotting or "Occupying Christmas" join us as we say goodbye to capitalism for good. Don't give things for Christmas, give only love, your time and compassion and hope for a better world to come.

purchasing products this holiday season is against world peace, a true global democracy and the true spirit of christmas.

take christmas back from the capitalist oppressors

[-] 1 points by SirPoeticJustice (628) from New York, NY 2 years ago

Awesome!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[-] 1 points by nikka (228) 2 years ago

Out with the OLD! In with the NEW! Even if it's BAD Whatcha gonna DO?

[-] 1 points by therock (30) from Altona, NY 2 years ago

Yeah, it's important to keep in mind THE WHO's anthem to the revolution, "We won't get fooled again."

[Removed]

[-] 1 points by FHampton (309) 2 years ago

On the question of demands, Ruth Jennison and Jordana Rosenberg write:

"What, after all, is a demand? That we liberate New York, or Oakland, or Cleveland from the grips of financiers? That we must have returned what was stolen from us and given to the banks and to the 1%? That we deserve to live a life free of police repression and violence? That we want an end to imperialist projects and wars, and the restoration of social services and education? If any of our hesitation to demand comes from a fear of losing, let’s look around us and see how strong we are. For the first time in a lifetime."

http://leninology.blogspot.com/2011/10/ows-vs-octopus-on-making-demand.html

[-] 1 points by FHampton (309) 2 years ago

I also do want to draw attention to the general strike planned for the UK on November 30th. We should stand with our comrades there who are taking a very substantial risk by organizing across sectors for mass industrial action on a scale not seen since perhaps 1926. We should work to coordinate our November actions with this tremendous step forward for British labor unions.

http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2011/09/14-3

[-] 1 points by FHampton (309) 2 years ago

From Vijay Prashad:

"To move from celebration of our strength to the creation of a sharp political instrument is tricky and it must be done with care, and with patience. Of course we shall need concrete demands, and of course we will need to build a political carapace around the energy of the Occupy movement."

http://www.counterpunch.org/2011/11/03/mind-the-gap/

[-] 0 points by otf (115) from Mooresville, IN 2 years ago

I'm pretty sure thev'e stolen 200-300 Hundred Trillion from us since 1913, maybe more, (yes, I said Hundreds of Trillions.)

[-] 1 points by sunshower (80) 2 years ago

Since the FED has never paid taxes like any other private corporation in the US, it's high time to audit it and collect the trillions it owes us. Their privately owned building in Wash DC can be part of the payment for their COLOSSAL tax debt to our US Treasury and be used by a restored, legitimate gov't run by the people and for the people. If OWS becomes the 3rd party, I think we can win the 2012 national elections , and then we can occupy the White House legally, with the consent of the American people, and finally have a President who works for the people – and not the Fed banksters.

[-] 1 points by Adam (116) 2 years ago

Leaders = fail.

[-] 1 points by sunshower (80) 2 years ago

Not all leaders fail Many consider Mahatma Gandhi the world's best political leader. He helped free the Indian people from British rule wo/violence.

Abraham Lincoln was one of the great leaders in American history. He led the country in the American Civil War to abolish slavery and apartheid. Sir Winston Churchill led England successfully through the World War II. George Washington and Thomas Jefferson did not fail, nor did General Dwight Eisenhower, Martin Luther King, Jr, and Nelson Mandela

[-] 1 points by Adam (116) 2 years ago

They all did nothing. Take a look around. Look at India and shutup. Look a the failure of the emancipation proclamation and the Jim Crow era and shut up. No one cares about WInston Churchill so shut up. George Washington was a military commander, that is not the same as a political leader. He left office refusing to participate in political parties. Thomas Jefferson was a young rebel who never lived up to what he believed in nor did he keep his promises. Bad example. He created our one party system that still enslaves us. Eisenhower began the new world order and everything that we are fighting to stop. Nixon was Eisenhower's vice-president yuh know as they slashed taxes for the wealthy after FDR had pulled our country half back together over 10 years. Martin Luther Burger King Whopper Jr. was a total non factor in history. He was a great inspirational speaker and that is it. His followers did nothing but sit around while the battle of Birmingham took place. Nelson Mandela spent his life in jail and South Africa was never completely freed. He got out and was appointed president to ease riots. They still need rebellion. All failures.

[-] 1 points by sunshower (80) 2 years ago

All good points - except telling someone on this free speech forum to shut up

[-] 1 points by Adam (116) 2 years ago

Sorry. I did not mean to actually shut up, I just meant to point out how obvious the failure of these so called leaders was. Abraham Lincoln's failure lasted over a hundred years. Why don't people know these things?

[-] 2 points by sunshower (80) 2 years ago

Thank you Adam

[-] 0 points by sufinaga (513) 2 years ago

that's the truth! the uprising is in consciousness against being brutalised by their BS which goes back 2000/5000 years! we must protect our children's minds from the HORRORS of christianity. we must protect our vulnerable people from the snare of the "gospel" just as we need protection from islam. child protection will destroy christianity just as surely as womens liberation will destroy islam. our community must not allow these medieval evils to regrow among us.

[-] 1 points by Adam (116) 2 years ago

Why is this prejudiced comment even visible? Much less all the way at the top of this thread here? Who is controlling these threads in a most discriminating manner? They are not in order of the time posted. Attacking another persons religion is the first step to pointless violence. The violence needs to be controlled and directed at the wealthy criminals who are doing the opposite of what Jesus teaches. Stop the discrimination.

[-] 1 points by sufinaga (513) 2 years ago

we must remove the predators. fishers of men are predators of men. we do not want christians preaching the gospel. the gospel is a snare for the vulnerable. christians are recruiting followers to their delusion, their imaginary friend. the christian church is headeed by the queen of england the whore of babylon and fascist tyrant. or it is headed by the pope, aka the roman emperor and fascist youth. the christians are working for the ENEMY these fascist rulers.

[-] 1 points by jimmycrackerson (940) from Blackfoot, ID 2 years ago

I was raised into a strict christian family, if I can break out of them chains anyone can. Once the kids grow up and get a taste of the real world they will awaken. It just takes time.

[-] 1 points by sufinaga (513) 2 years ago

so was I!?!? we must have community principles. we must protect our children's minds and our minds from violent images. that means no images or thoughts of crucifixion. the issue is the christian churches are controlled by male-only fascist hierarchies that preach a christian muslim war. that is what we must stop financing!!

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 2 years ago

sufinaga, I totally agree with your conclusions.

[-] 1 points by sufinaga (513) 2 years ago

sweet cheers mate! the problem is the politically correct brigade. so let's just identify the male-only hierarchy as always a fascist hierarchy. then the women will see that christians are controlled by such an all male-only fascist hierarchy. then see the political manipulation of the christian muslim war costing us trillions going into the arms industry profits. so by being tolerant of talk or followers of "jesus" we permit their evil war mongering divisiveness to grow among us.

[-] 1 points by jimmycrackerson (940) from Blackfoot, ID 2 years ago

Wull, my ma was the one who made me go to church. My pa couldn't care less.

[-] 1 points by sufinaga (513) 2 years ago

we have all been deliberately brutalised by this crucifixionBS crucifixion merchants to create cannon fodder, factory fodder, prison fodder. they have been terrorising the children, frightening the women and having a laugh at us.

[-] 1 points by Adam (116) 2 years ago

This is a class war, an equality war, NOT A RELIGIOUS WAR, FOOLS!!!

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 2 years ago

Religion is on the side of the oppressors, FOOL.

[-] 1 points by Adam (116) 2 years ago

No it is not. It is an individual decision to make. You chose to be atheist. That is your religion. If you care about sharing the wealth, then it might be a good idea not to isolate yourselves from 90% of the population. Most of us have a non-atheist belief structure and code of laws. The people in charge have you totally fooled.

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 2 years ago

The false assertion that atheism is a religion almost always comes from the religious. You will never hear an atheist, agnostic or a humanists assert this. The reason is the religious frame everything in the light of a religious point of view, and find it incomprehensible that a person would have no religious beliefs. an atheist denies the assertion by theist that there is a god, based on reason, logical thought and the lack of empirical evidence. no more no less.

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 2 years ago

Atheism is not a religion or a belief structure. It is simply the denial of an assertion from theists that a deity exists. The so called Tea Party(religious Right) as documented in the award wining book "Amazing Grace how religion divides and unites us" The Tea Party Republican(Religious right) continue to Obstruct government and its Institutions. By attacking our Government institutions the Tea Party Republicans have declared War on America.

[-] 1 points by Adam (116) 2 years ago

I wish you well with your atheism. I also wish you would realize that these tea baggers are not Christians even if they claim to be. No american leader was ever a true Christian. If they were, our country would be totally different. I am probably the very first Christan that you have spoken to ever. We have a code of laws handed down from 5000+ years ago. These people who you call the "religious right" are not religious at all. They are what we call heretics. They mutate our faith into something bad and broadcast it all over the world. It is false.

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 2 years ago

Christians who behave badly are always disowned by the establishment as"their not real Christians, Christians wouldn't do that sort of thing". Well I'm here to tell you that Christian can and do do those things. Example "Noway Terrorist, Abortion Clinic bombings, Murder of abortion doctors, Denial of medical care to pregnant women, The Atlanta bombings during the Olympics, Obstruction of legal access to abortion clinics. I think this short list is enough to make my point.

[-] 1 points by Adam (116) 2 years ago

So they are criminals, not Christians. If you read the gospel, you would know who Barabas is, and you would know what Jesus would say about bombing someone. But since you have not read it, your comments remain ignorant.

[-] 1 points by Adam (116) 2 years ago

You are one ignorant fool. Don't ever use the word "we" again. You speak for no one, everything you typed is totally incorrect. Please read the gospel before speaking about it.

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 2 years ago

Adam, when do they magically stop being christian and become criminals the moment the bullet enters the doctors head?

[-] 1 points by Adam (116) 2 years ago

Exactly. The moment they break the Christian law in the name of God there is pretty much no turning back. Why don't you try reading the 10 commandments instead of watching the news so you can know what it actually means to be Christian rather than looking at people who break our laws. To kill breaks the law, the use God's name while killing is even greater a crime. That is 2 major offenses that can not possibly be condoned by any church that knows Christ. The guy that killed people outside the abortion clinic is just as much a Christian as you are. He never read the frickin book, but he can't stop flapping his ignorant mouth anyway.

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 2 years ago

Islam says the same thing..............In the history of the world, nothing has been the catalyst of more grief, hatred, war, and crime than religion. Religion allows a person to hate, kill, torture, or steal, while allowing him to recuse himself of all blame. Religion causes people to break the laws of ethics and morality in the name of a god.

[-] 1 points by Adam (116) 2 years ago

Atheists do all that crap too. Stop discriminating. It's unity or it's more war. Learn to live with me or learn to leave me alone.

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 2 years ago

Atheists are not an Organised Group with a political Ideology. Atheist just deny the assertion made by the religious that there is a supernatural (God). That is all an atheist is, nothing more nothing less.

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 2 years ago

The gospel, a collection of contradictory writings by bronze age tribesmen 2000+ years ago. It is filled with bronze age superstitions and the conventional wisdom of the bronze age. Approves of Slavery, incest, human sacrifice, animal sacrifice, genocide, murder, rape, stoning of women who have been raped and quite a few more discredited items. To follow the literal meaning of this book is quite hard for the average 21st century person to believe. So it is cherry picked for acceptably items and the rest are never mentioned. But there are large groups of fundamentalist that do follow the literal meaning of the Gospels, to our horror.

[-] 1 points by Adam (116) 2 years ago

You did not even read it. Another ignorant fool playing what appears to be the opposite game.

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 2 years ago

Adam, "Arguing with a theist is like arguing with a child". I present reasoned and logical argument with empirical evidence and in return I get insults and your opinion of me.

[-] 1 points by Adam (116) 2 years ago

You presented criminal behavior by people claiming to be Christian as an excuse to bash Jesus. You are wrong.

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 2 years ago

They weren't claiming to be christian they were christian, Just like Mr. Hill who was put to death in Florida for Murdering three people outside an abortion clinic. And still had the support of his church and operation rescue. Why do you Christians think you can say their not christian anymore and have people believe you.

[-] 1 points by sufinaga (513) 2 years ago

the gospel is a snare to trap the souls of men. it is vain to set a trap in front of any bird. we do not need any intermediary to our loving father. we do not need a scapegoat for our sins. we do not need a human sacrifice. we do not need jesus.

[-] 1 points by Adam (116) 2 years ago

You definitely need Jesus. You are an ignorant fool. Maybe someday you will meet him.

[-] 1 points by sufinaga (513) 2 years ago

we know your game. you are recruiting people to "save" and exploit and brainwash into working for these fascist slave masters. you are a predator and not welcome in our community. jesus is the antichrist. fishers of men are predators of men. we know it is bad mental health to relive the crucifixion. we celebrate eternal life in the here and now with great joy. NO CRUCIFIXION MERCHANTS!!

[-] 1 points by Adam (116) 2 years ago

All wrong again. Are you playing the opposite game?

[-] 1 points by sufinaga (513) 2 years ago

jesus was crucified by the romans and beheaded by his followers! you are a PREDATOR recruiting followers for your imaginary friend and the fascist rulers THE ENEMY. there was no resurrection, it is not mentioned in the early gospels so your faith is in vain. the crucified jew is a RACIST ABOMINATION and we do not want such evil images in our minds. look at the horrors of christianity from the inquisition to burning witches to eating dead human flesh. YUK!!!

[-] 1 points by sufinaga (513) 2 years ago

jesus was crucified by the romans and beheaded by his followers! you are a PREDATOR recruiting followers for your imaginary friend and the fascist rulers THE ENEMY. there was no resurrection, it is not mentioned in the early gospels so your faith is in vain. the crucified jew is a RACIST ABOMINATION and we do not want such evil images in our minds. look at the horrors of christianity from the inquisition to burning witches to eating dead human flesh. YUK!!!

[-] 1 points by Adam (116) 2 years ago

It does not get much lower than bashing someones sacred beliefs of which they were raised on and their ancestors for thousands of years were raised on. There is no point to it, the only result of your ignorant insults could be eventual senseless violence. Why can't you just shut your mouth? If you can't stop verbally abusing others, you will lose your voice in a painful way someday. What goes around comes around.

[Deleted]

[-] 1 points by sufinaga (513) 2 years ago

you are reduced to a personal attack. i am attacking the gospel of christians with sustained reasoning. you are preaching your religion to others, to our community so we have a right and duty to protect our community from being brutalised by BS. you are trying to RECRUIT followers to jesus. this is what we, as a community MUST STOP. no crucifixion merchants here. conversion is bullying. you tell the vulnerable that they will die and go to hell unless they believe the that jesus is the only way to be saved. that is a lie! you will say i am a demon and will go to hell because i do not believe your HORROR story. that is what you think about all of us who do not believe in a human sacrifice or eating human flesh and drinking human blood or a scapegoat for our sins. we do not want your HORROR STORY in our minds, our children's minds. we do not want the reliving of the crucifixion in our ritual lives. your intent in preaching this horror is to recruit fearful followers, repeatedly abused by crucifixion and being blamed for it!?! i want us all to wake up to your evil intent to recruit and money shark for the fascist hierarchy controlling your church. i am not bashing your faith with ignorance. i am destroying your religion with TRUTH. you will also be dividing us against muslims ordered by your fascist masters. you are a divisive influence and support a war on muslims to divide mankind. we will unite against you. let us DEBATE your beliefs!!!?? a virgin birth? do you think we are idiots?

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 2 years ago

There is no empirical Evidence that Jesus of Nazareth even existed on planet earth.

[-] 1 points by Adam (116) 2 years ago

Whatever faith you guys have, I'd be willing to read whatever you got before making comments about it at least. I can see from your comments that you never read my stuff. What is the point of ignorant discrimination? You achieve nothing.

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 2 years ago

Adam, Would you please explain to me what you are trying to say in your post. I cannot make any sense out of it.

[-] 1 points by Adam (116) 2 years ago

That if you care about equality and peace, you need to accept all religions. Look at a person's behavior. Don't just bash an entire belief system because it isolates you from those people, who outnumber you by a few billion, and are nothing like what you think.

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 2 years ago

Its the Atheist that is not accepted by religions because he has reason and reason is the enemy of religion.

[-] 1 points by newwave (2) 2 years ago

That is funny our parish priest last Sunday asked us to pray for the protestors who he said," were standing up to the injustices of this world." Go figure....

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 2 years ago

Praying, a supreme waste of time.

[-] 0 points by TIOUAISE (2526) 2 years ago

Have you tried meditation?

[-] 2 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 2 years ago

What's your point, meditation and praying to imaginary beings are different, or am I wrong about meditation.

[-] 0 points by TIOUAISE (2526) 2 years ago

I'm not a Catholic and don't particularly like the present pope, but I was happy anyway to hear Benedict publish a strong statement in favor of Social Justice.

And I'm not an Anglican either, but I was glad to hear the Archbishop of Canterbury announce officially that he supports the OWS Movement and the occupation of St. Paul's in London.

[-] 1 points by NoDeceit (7) 2 years ago

And how do you plan to do this? Do you think the government should outlaw religion like USSR did?

[-] 1 points by sufinaga (513) 2 years ago

by education! christianity was invented by the romans. they grafted on the doctrines of virgin birth and resurrection from the cult of mithras onto the story of the king of the jews whom they had crucified. there was no resurrection. it is NOT mentioned in the early gospels. fishers of men are predators of men. we must remove these christian predators from our community. we must protect our children from their horror story of crucifixion. we must stop them recruiting followers to follow the OUR ENEMY the fascist tyrant on the throne of england, the whore of babylon and the pope, the hitler youth. christians money shark their victims with tithes.

[-] 0 points by jeivers (278) 2 years ago

Maintain the separation of Church and State - that is all we need do!

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 2 years ago

Great Post and as true as anything on this Planet. Religion poisons everything.

[-] 0 points by TIOUAISE (2526) 2 years ago

"Religion poisons everything."? Maybe...

But TRUE SPIRITUALITY has the power to HEAL everything.

The distinction between organized religion and personal spirituality is pretty important...

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 2 years ago

Please explain to me the meaning of Spirituality.

[-] 0 points by TIOUAISE (2526) 2 years ago

WOW! I would have to write an encyclopedia to answer your question... and even then, it would still not be enough. Spirituality is all of life - and for myself, my whole life.

But you will find much more here : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirituality

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 2 years ago

Degree of involvement or state of awareness or devotion to a higher being or life philosophy. Not always related to conventional religious beliefs................... That is the definition of spirituality.....................So you where a little to quick on the Bullshit trigger my friend......http://psycnet.apa.org.

[-] 0 points by TIOUAISE (2526) 2 years ago

I already wrote to you 30 minutes ago :

"GOOD DAY, my friend. I have no time for this."

And I repeat : GOOD DAY. AUF WIEDERSEHEN AUREVOIR GOOD BYE

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 2 years ago

So long sorry I proved you wrong.

[-] 0 points by TIOUAISE (2526) 2 years ago

OOOOOOOOH!

HUGE Light-Bulb Moment!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

"chuck1al" = GOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 2 years ago

No you don't,......spiritual experience includes that of connectedness with a larger reality.............IE: GOD........That's not a larger reality its a Delusion.

[-] 0 points by TIOUAISE (2526) 2 years ago

WHO are you to pretend to define spirituality in a few words? Do you take yourself for GOD???????? "That's not a larger reality its a Delusion" ??????????

You didn't even read : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirituality

Good day, my friend. I have no time for this.

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 2 years ago

Go to http://psycnet.apa.org/index.cfm?fa=termfinder.displayTerms&first=7711&query. .............I don't pretend to define a simple term like spirituality in one sentence the professionals do and wikipedia will get their correction for spirituality so that their information will be correct.............. Evolution hard wired the inability to admit you are wrong into our brains because to our distant relatives there were severe problems for being wrong......So I understand the problems you are having in this regard.

[-] 0 points by TIOUAISE (2526) 2 years ago

OOOOOOOOH!

HUGE Light-Bulb Moment!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

"chuck1al" = GOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[-] 0 points by 182blink (22) 2 years ago

further proof as to why one shouldnt use drugs

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 2 years ago

182blink, Your a delusional Moron.

[-] 1 points by 182blink (22) 2 years ago

yes...there will be no religion just like there will be no capitalism and big corporations...keep smoking that hash

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 2 years ago

Atheist "One opposed to belief in the existence of a god." .............."I'm not even an atheist so much as I am an antitheist; I not only maintain that all religions are versions of the same untruth, but I hold that the influence of churches, and the effect of religious belief, is positively harmful.".........."doctrine antagonistic to theism; 'denial' of the existence of a God..............Theism, in this specific sense, conceives of God as personal, present and active in the governance and organization of the world and the universe. The use of the word theism as indicating a particular doctrine.....................There is only the natural world with its laws that are"FIXED, UNIVERSAL and UNCHANGEABLE". Mankind is on it's own.

[-] 1 points by SocratesPhilosophy (231) 2 years ago

(Decided to reply one more time)

Do you believe there is no God? yes or no... Simple one word answer.

Atheism is a religion.

The "belief there is no god" that a Atheist (not Agnostic Atheism) would view as true but cannot prove, so their view would fall under the definition of faith. If you have view at all about any subject you have a belief about that subject, what would define it as religion is if it effects cause, nature, and purpose of the universe.

Belief in God would mean you believe God has everything to do with the universe it can't be proven so requires faith but if God was proven to not exist it would effect your view of cause, nature, and purpose of the universe.... correct?

Atheist reject the idea of a god and believe their view to be true or they would be agnostic unless they choose no stance at all of a god that of which would require unknowing of what the term "god" means so it would fall under a belief and since they can't prove that a god doesn't exist then by definition it requires faith for their view, meaning it would effect their view of the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe if a god was proven to be true.Making Atheism a religious view.

religion: a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe.

faith: firm belief in something for which there is no proof.

belief: a principle, proposition, idea, etc, accepted as true.

Atheism: The belief that God does not exist.

Atheism Defined

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/atheism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 2 years ago

There is no need to prove a negative, debate 101, An Atheist is someone who denies the assertion that there is a god. that's all. People who claim atheism is a religion are most often religious people, you would never hear an atheist, agnostic or humanist disc ripe atheism as a religion. The reason is that religious people frame everything about an atheist in religious terms. A theist finds it incomprehensible to believe another person does not have a religious belief. I hope this clears the matter up for you, it's very easy to find the correct term for an atheist and a theist and compare them. You will see no similarities. again an atheist is someone who denies the theist assertion of a god. That's it, end of story , da da that's all folks! Yes I am an Atheist and proud to be a freethinker.

[-] 1 points by 182blink (22) 2 years ago

guess youre not getting any presents for christmas...oops im sorry...x-mas

[-] 1 points by notaneoliberal (2269) 2 years ago

Well, I guess if you don't believe Santa Clause exists, you would be an aSantaist, and it would require faith to believe Santa doesn't exist.

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 2 years ago

No it's the Winter Solstice. A pagan Celebration stolen by Christians to try and convert the Germanic Tribes. LOL

[-] 1 points by 182blink (22) 2 years ago

LOL...guess you must still be in middle school..surprised you didnt use OMG too.....and youre still not getting any presents

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 2 years ago

Your not making any sense, why don't you respond like an adult? "arguing with a theist is like arguing with a child"

[-] 1 points by 182blink (22) 2 years ago

no need to respond, as you command.your own statements show how silly you are.guess we are all here by some quirk of nature. guess the miracle of life is the product of happen stance. you think that the ability of a fertilized ovum to produce a concert pianist or a great scientist is purely accidental? and the order of life is merely coincidence? your in for a rude awakening, when you die. or maybe not,as g-d does protect drunkards and fools

[-] 1 points by notaneoliberal (2269) 2 years ago

That,s what those "great scientists" believe.

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 2 years ago

I don't think it's coincidence, it's called natural selection and DNA. There won't be any surprises when I die, I only regret that when you die you'll never know how wrong you where and what a waste to spend the only life you have on a bronze age superstition.

[Deleted]

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 2 years ago

WTF?

[-] -1 points by 182blink (22) 2 years ago

how do you plan to pay for and provide services for your "liberated" communities?

[+] -4 points by ronjj (-241) 2 years ago

If I hear the term "restoration of education" one more time I am going to puke. You have no idea who tore this down do you. It was the powers that be, the protestors, the pity those poor little kids, lets all be equal crowd. I have been in education for over 46 years, you and your ilk have all but destroyed education in this country. It wasn't the local school board, it wasn't the parents, its wasn't the school staff - look at your cries. Ultimately, you cry to the government or some other great authority that you think you can control to get your restoration of education. You are a joke in the raw.

[-] 2 points by jeivers (278) 2 years ago

That is the dumbest most ignorant rant I have read in a while - the FAR right has beed assaulting the quality of our education for decades and suddenly its these protesters who destroyed education in this country -- you are a Troll or just very ignorant.

[-] 1 points by Concerned (455) 2 years ago

What a laugh. The "far right" is the cause of all that is evil in this world. They try to "tear down" education. How much of what used to be considered a well rounded education has been basically removed from our education system in order to satisfy the demands of a centralized agency? Do they teach geography any longer? No. Do they teach consumer math any longer? No. As a result, can you look at a map of the US and point out where the states actually are? If you can, you are lucky and either the product of 1) a private or home schooled education 2) enjoy and expand upon the learning given you at our government schools because most students graduating from our government schools today cannot do so. And just why is it that you think that so many were fooled by the fancy financing of the loan industry on their mortgages? Can't be that they were not taught consumer math can it?

Our students are tested today on certain things that a centralized government has decided determine a "good" education and passing test scores are required to get federal money and in some cases, state money. No longer are students taught for the life they will lead after school is over - they are taught to pass a standardized test.

And the right is to blame for all of that? Yeah, right.

[-] 0 points by jeivers (278) 2 years ago

Not what I said - and the right has assaulted education over the last decades - but I do agree with you about standardized testing. But these issues all come after we get people to control the government agaion instead of big Money then people like you and me could actually debate and find common ground without oaid partisanship destroying our chances of doing so. Because the truth is when you put ideologically different regular Americans in a room alone and ask them to find common ground they actually do and can -- its the politicians who are beholden to special interests and big money that find this impossible not us - and I have no problems with rich people, conservatives or libertarians they are my fellow Americans its big money BEING USED to corrupt our politics and destroy our Free Market that is the real problem.

[-] 1 points by Concerned (455) 2 years ago

And the only way this movement will actually get the real 99% behind them is take out the partisanship talk then. Every time I read that supporters blame the right and Wall Street and exonerate the left in the issues we face, I am less inclined to stand in any way shape or form with this movement. All politicians have accepted the bribes of business or certain segments of a population - either in the actual money taken or in the assurance that doing so will gain the voting power of a block of people for their own re-election.

Occupying Wall Street (and hurting the small businesses whose streets are blocked) does nothing to change the situation - marching on DC and voting out every politician in office would send a far greater message than those tents and drums.

[-] 1 points by NoDeceit (7) 2 years ago

So you believe that our educational system is doing wonderfully and is not need of reform?

[-] 0 points by jeivers (278) 2 years ago

Allow states to enact reforms and copy the succesful ones from state to state -- the greatest financial problem with education is that it is tied to property taxes that does not account for the economic activity of where many people work -- education needs to be funded at the state level equally by student.

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 2 years ago

I didn't that at all. I simply explained my point of view as to why you or anyone else might determine that it is not.

Your reform. Unless you are the parent of a child in my school or community. NO NO NO NO

If you are a parent of a child in a local school - get your %#*& off this crazy forum and get to work in that school, through the Board, the staff, including the janitor, and MOST importantly through your child.

[-] 0 points by FreeMarkets (272) 2 years ago

Needs: Get the government out. Get the unions out. Get the parents back in. 100% voucher system to create a competitive environment.

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 2 years ago

Those are the Religious Right's talking points.

[-] 1 points by Concerned (455) 2 years ago

And as such have no merit? Deserve no discussion? You then must think that a centralized power should have more say than the parents of how a child is educated and that funding for any school should depend primarily on a centralized test that only tests certain subjects? You must not have had any real experience with how the schools are getting around the funding rules; the use or lose it funds that result in unneeded "improvements' in order to avoid its loss - not improvements to education itself but to the building. Our local elementary school was built in 2007 - state of the art. In 2009, in order to not lose improvement funds, they tore up perfectly good flooring and replaced it with new flooring.....how's that for a good way to spend taxpayer monies?

Get over your hatred of religion or theists or whatever and get some real world experience....then I'll take what you say seriously.

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 2 years ago

First don't Tell me what I think! People have the freedom to send their children to religious schools now. What I have a problem with is the tax payer footing the bill, religion already is riding the gravy train of no taxation and they violate the IRS rules by engaging in partisan politics. They should all loose their tax exemptions this money could be applied to the deficit. I don't hate religion I despise it for the damage it's done and is doing to mankind.

[-] 1 points by Concerned (455) 2 years ago

When one makes a statement such "those are the religious rights talking points" to discount another ones comment or suggestion, what is thought is apparent. That thought process can be nothing other than "WHERE an idea comes from is more important than the merit of the idea." Gets us nowhere.

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 2 years ago

The Religious Right has been discredited and their talking points have no place in our society. Your are ether a religiously Ideological person or a troll. my discussions with you are over.

[-] 1 points by Concerned (455) 2 years ago

And once again, you prove the point that this movement does not represent the 99%; its not quite as "open" and "without bias" as it would like the world to see it.

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 2 years ago

Sleeping with your Enemies is not being all inclusive.

[-] 0 points by FreeMarkets (272) 2 years ago

Huh?

[-] 1 points by SwissMiss (2435) from Ann Arbor Charter Township, MI 2 years ago

I agree.

[-] 0 points by jeivers (278) 2 years ago

:-)

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 2 years ago

I don't even know what a troll as you mention is. Don't really care to know.

I gave you my qualifications to speak. What are yours. I didn't call you ignorant and you haven't shown me that you even finished kindergarten.

[-] 1 points by tdodge (1) from Englewood, CO 2 years ago

All you said was that you've been in education for the past 46 years. For all we know you could be a janitor at an elementary school. Aging yourself doesn't make you qualified to do anything. You never made one mention of how the OWS "ilk" has destroyed education. What exactly is it that you do in education? What exactly has a nationwide protest done over the past few months that completely destroyed education? I stand by Jeivers statement. You ARE ignorant.

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 2 years ago

Let me explain a little more:

9 years in elementary school 4 years in high school 4 years in a big 10 university (BBA) 5 years of part time graduate (MA in Edu) with enough hours for another MA education 5 years in the classroom 2 years as education specialist 10 years as principal - elementary 10 years in junior college 1 year as principal in college prep school

(AND since you asked - I was asked to testify before Congress regarding one of the most vital pieces of education ever enacted for the benefit of an important segment of our society)

AND

31 years in small business OPERATION here in America selling products 90% purchased locally and 10%from across America

AND you???????

So, tdodge, I have seen a lot more effective janitors in an elementary school (and a high school or two) than I see posting on these forums. And a piece of advise to you, assuming that you are younger than me, DON"T EVER speak of a janitor in the way that you did in sentence two and as supported in your last sentence. What if in effect, I was that janitor. And you call me ignorant. At least I don't degrade people by position. Aging my self did qualify me for Social Security. that is pretty close to your NOT anything statement. But I get by.

The ilk that destroyed education is all the do gooders that sound off from their perch (whether it be in the park or Congress, saying that they know what is best for everyone else). Education was set up as local issue. If you will correlate these two things, you will see what the "ilk" has produced:

  1. Think of the time when education was "good in America" in your opinion.

CORRELATE TO

  1. Federal spending for education, The size of the Department of Education in relation to the number of students in the system. Dollars spent on education.

You can do all the work yourself, hire a consultant, ask a friend, go to OWS or whatever you want. If your results are a lot different than mine, please let me know, and then check our sources again.

PS - A big complaint today seems to revolve around student loans, the cost of an education and who should pay for such. If nothing is learned from the above "rant" expect the government to have a LOT more control over your life than loaning you money and expecting you to pay it back. You take a dollar-you got conditions. The more you take-the more the conditions.

Sorry to keep you up so late. You just need to know how passionate I am about being a fool for anyone, any group, or anything.

[-] 0 points by jeivers (278) 2 years ago

What qualifications - your post and scorn and obvious ignorance just tells us you spent 46 years participating in the deterioration of the American Educational System and still don't have a clue.

You are part of the problem and should probably not be in education.

[-] 0 points by FreeMarkets (272) 2 years ago

The far right has shut down education? That is bizarre, to say the least.

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 2 years ago

Your absolutely correct. Along with the Religious right. They are out to destroy public education.

[-] 0 points by jeivers (278) 2 years ago

And not what I said either...

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 2 years ago

Just as bizarre as the new graduate that was applying for his first job with a rather prestigious company. He got all kinds of recommendations to the effect that he came from a prominent family, his father was from the Smith and Jones family, his mother from the Greers and the Muloofs etc.

The company simply replied that they could not use him in the business. They were looking for work qualification, they weren't going to use him for breeding purposes.

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 2 years ago

Everyone has had a great part in the shutdown. Money controls too much of our educational system today, not the lack of money. What is it about free money from the Federal Government that you don't understand in relationship to CONTROL. Did you ever see a government grant for general education that didn't tell you how to spend it.

I speak from 46 years educational experience and my experience shows that whenever funds received from the Federal Government become 50% of more of your educational budget at the local level, you no longer have local control. The solution of all mindless wonders becomes money - just look around you - this is all about money - take money from the filthy rich, give money to me, give money to pay for my college education, give money to save your nation from the big oil guys. and on and on.

Money has killed more "education" in this country than anything else. Just a cursory look should be the only evidence you need. Our per student costs today far exceed anything from the past and do you see the best educational system in the world. Get real - folks - have you lost your common sense.

If you have a point to make, attack the message not the messenger I have been around the block, and I passed a lot of idiots on the way around. (I didn't meet jeivers until today so he/she is not included in this reference to idiots, YET, but your comments sure are getting you a lot closer).

[-] -1 points by ronjj (-241) 2 years ago

Another request - could you please name five or ten people from the FAR right who you do NOT know from the media or other public means.

No names required. Just a description such as 01. My 25 year old neighbor from two doors down. 02. My boss of 5 years, etc.

Protect the privacy thing. Just curious how well you know these people.

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 2 years ago

ronjj, where is your proof? or are you just a fucking idiot.

[-] 1 points by Concerned (455) 2 years ago

WHERE is your proof that the far right - the religious right - are trying to destroy public education? Real proof, not something the Huffington Post puts out as fact.

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 2 years ago

The Home School Legal Defense Association, the organization is known (and often criticized, from both inside and outside the larger homeschooling movement) for its ties to the Christian Right and its staunch advocacy for various conservative political and religious causes, some of which are unrelated to homeschooling.................The Christian Right has worked to modify the public school curriculum in a number of ways. It has made inroads by having its followers win school board elections. Research suggests that these candidates run solely to propagate their religious or moral beliefs as school policy...................The Christian Right has strong opinions on how American children should be educated, speaking out in support for activities like state-sanctioned prayer in public schools...................The Christian Right strongly advocates for a system of educational choice, using a system of school vouchers. Vouchers would be government funded and could be redeemed for "a specified maximum sum per child per years if spent on approved educational services". This method would allow parents to determine which school their child attends while relieving the economic burden associated with private schools. The concept is popular among constituents of church-related schools.......................The Christian Right has promoted the teaching of creationism and intelligent design as opposed to the teaching of evolution. The Christian Right has not supported the teaching of evolution in the past, but it does not have the ability to stop it being taught in public schools..............http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_right#Education.

[-] 1 points by Concerned (455) 2 years ago

Ah, wikipedia is your "proof".

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 2 years ago

Along with the sites it uses as references. Now your going to tell wikipedia is always wrong, I know that. I can give you reference sites by the handful that will back my position. So I know its hard to admit your wrong its hard wired into our brains by evolution, because there where real problems to being wrong for our distant ancestors.

[-] 1 points by Concerned (455) 2 years ago

More gobblygook from you I see....let's take a little look at what you wrote:

HSLDA advocates on the legal front on behalf of our members in matters which include conflicts with state or local officials over homeschooling...homeschooling NOT public education. So how do they seek to destroy public education - give some real examples of how they tried and where they have succeeded.

And give some examples where the Christian right has won in their attempt to teach creationism in lieu of evolution - there are some schools which teach both but becoming fewer as a result of the ACLU and other groups filing lawsuits - your claim however, is that they seek to destroy public education - so give us some examples of where they have succeeded in that attempt?

So you feel a litmus test on faith should be given before someone is allowed to be elected to a local school board? Only non-Christians need apply? How about Muslims? Hindu's? Only atheists allowed?

And since 1962, the Christian Right has been oh so successful in getting prayer back in school haven't they?

So you don't support the idea that school vouchers would offer "choice" to everyone equally regardless of income right? You choose to believe that those vouchers would only hurt the public schools by having parents "choose" to take their children out. Seems like right now only the RICH have that choice don't they? Shouldn't the Occupy Movement be supporting the idea of 'freedom of choice" in education? Right now, those who are not rich and choose to place their children in any private school, still pay property taxes which go to fund the public school system. Vouchers would only allow them to take the money THEY give the school system where they live and apply it to the school of their "choice"....can't have that can we now?

And did you know that since the late 1800's Vermont and Maine both have voucher systems in place?

And the Manhattan Institute for Policy Research found that the competition increase education positively as seen in "When Schools Compete: The Effects of Vouchers on Florida Public School Achievement"

Friedrich von Hayek wrote on the privatizing of education: As has been shown by Professor Milton Friedman (M. Friedman, The role of government in education, 1955), it would now be entirely practicable to defray the costs of general education out of the public purse without maintaining government schools, by giving the parents vouchers covering the cost of education of each child which they could hand over to schools of their choice. It may still be desirable that government directly provide schools in a few isolated communities where the number of children is too small (and the average cost of education therefore too high) for privately run schools. But with respect to the great majority of the population, it would undoubtedly be possible to leave the organization and management of education entirely to private efforts, with the government providing merely the basic finance and ensuring a minimum standard for all schools where the vouchers could be spent. (F. A. Hayek, The Constitution of Liberty, section 24.3)

As usual, what you write is nothing more than left wing propaganda.

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 2 years ago

I said they where TRYING not that they have succeeded. Every reference I mention is a .......religious group dedicated to Home schooling, Tax payer support for religious schools, Vouchers. And promoting there religious points of view on everyone through elections to school boards...... Your Ideological blinders are preventing you from seeing the truth so you cherry pick the response and go off subject. This discussion is over I've proved my point to any reasonable person reading these threads.

[-] 1 points by Concerned (455) 2 years ago

I'm going "off subject"? Don't think so. You just don't like the fact that you cannot prove your belief that the Christian Right is trying to "destroy" public education.

I could do the same thing you are doing by simply going through the comments on this site, through the FB sites and through the leaked organizers emails of Occupy Wall Street. I could take every message that spoke to "overthrowing capitalism" and say that your entire movement wanted to "destroy capitalism". I could take every thing I could find on a mass defaulting on student loans and mortgages and say that everyone here wants to destroy America through its economic destruction....

Doesn't make it true any more than your references prove that the Religious Right wants to take over the Government and force everyone into Christian Education and Sunday morning services.

Until there is a religious litmus test and members of all faiths are banned from running for elected office, then the Christian Right and the Muslim and the Buddhist can all run for public school board offices. Until the government decides to take away freedom regarding where one chooses to be educated, then the Christian Right can support Homeschooling or vouchers. You don't have to agree with them, that is your Freedom OF Religion...you didn't get Freedom FROM Religion.

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 2 years ago

Our Discussion is over. See my above points.

[-] 1 points by unclesilas (1) 2 years ago

prop 13 clones, republican attacks on funding, and the move to try and make schools for profit have destroyed the education system... hope you're not teaching history... your students would be sadly misinformed...

[-] 1 points by Concerned (455) 2 years ago

Proposition 13 (officially named the People's Initiative to Limit Property Taxation) was an amendment of the Constitution of California enacted during 1978, by means of the initiative process. It was approved by California voters on June 6, 1978. It was declared constitutional by the United States Supreme Court in the case of Nordlinger v. Hahn, 505 U.S. 1 (1992). Proposition 13 is embodied in Article 13A of the Constitution of the State of California. Last I checked, California typically votes Democrat - and there are 49 other states - unless your the President and then there are 57 : )

You state "republican attacks on funding" but provide no actual "attacks".

You also cite "for profit" schools as the reason for the destruction of the education system. Are you speaking of secondary education? Because, last I checked public schools in primary education still dominate the private ones.

[-] 1 points by NoDeceit (7) 2 years ago

And what is your proof for this?

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 2 years ago

The Christian Right wants public education done away with, their loosing converts don't you know and want to teach creative design and the rest of their fairy tales.

[-] 1 points by NoDeceit (7) 2 years ago

And your proof is. . . .?

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 2 years ago

The Christian Right has worked to modify the public school curriculum in a number of ways. It has made inroads by having its followers win school board elections. Research suggests that these candidates run solely to propagate their religious or moral beliefs as school policy.....................The Christian Right has strong opinions on how American children should be educated, speaking out in support for activities like state-sanctioned prayer in public schools........................The Christian Right strongly advocates for a system of educational choice, using a system of school vouchers.....................,.The Christian right sees homeschooling and private schooling as a viable alternative to secular education........................Is this enough for you?

[-] 1 points by 182blink (22) 2 years ago

problem is whenever discipline is used to correct student behavior or the class day made longer or uniform standards of dress and hygiene are implemented the rabble complains and refuses to learn. and lets pull out school security so that the little angels dont feel repressed. and parents keep belly aching about how much homework your child gets as U.S. students fall even further behind their global counter parts

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 2 years ago

In all fairness, I DO NOT teach history, I have lived it and I try to teach it.

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 2 years ago

Since when is informing students of all the issues misinforming them. You are the one limiting the problem to those stated above. (See my comments below).

And I stand by my experience - you put one more Federal dollar into the average public school and you might as well get a deed to the whole thing (lock, stock and barrel). The stuff in the () can be explained later if you don't know what it refers to.

And we are not talking about dollars for capital improvements as you well know.

You fight all you want for more funds or against attacks on funding, WHEN did Federal dollars make your school better assuming that it is not better today as everyone laments.

[-] 1 points by lavendersoap (31) 2 years ago

"We are not here to make requests of a corrupt political system - we are here to take our lives back into our own hands. We are not acknowledging subservience. There is no higher power than that of the people. We are not asking for assistance. We are declaring independence. Our demand is not to those in power, it is to those individuals still silenced. Join us." PERFECTLY SAID AS TO WHAT THIS OCCUPATION IS REALLY ALL ABOUT!

[-] 3 points by GarciaLorca (53) 2 years ago

David Harvey on OWS:

"Many decent people are locked into the embrace of a system that is rotten to the core. If they are to earn even a reasonable living they have no other job option except to give the devil his due: they are only 'following orders,' as Adolf Eichmann famously claimed, or 'doing what the system demands' as others now put it, acceding to the barbarous and immoral principles and practices of the Party of Wall Street. The coercive laws of competition force us all, to some degree or other, to obey the rules of this ruthless and uncaring system. The problem is systemic, not individual."

http://www.versobooks.com/blogs/777-david-harvey-the-party-of-wall-street-meets-its-nemesis

[-] 2 points by sylrse (38) 2 years ago

With great power comes great responsibility. I see so many repressed and anxious for change, yet this is only the beginning. Look at this revolution as a chess match- think 5 or 10 moves ahead. Or read 'The Art of War'. Preparation for the unknown is key- ;)

[-] 1 points by NOTROLLHERE (2) 2 years ago

spiderman was a great movie

[-] 1 points by sylrse (38) 2 years ago

Yes it was- Spiderman was, and is, my favorite comic book character.

[-] 1 points by SunshineinCenSusq (4) from Lewisburg, PA 2 years ago

I like the sentiment, but I still think it leads in some areas to changes in political systems. What do we do with our power? We aren't going to have a plebicite or GA of 300 million Americans or 7 billion Earth-ers on every topic. There is still organizations and aggregations of power.

[-] 1 points by Nevada1 (4480) 2 years ago

Excellent.

[-] 1 points by yasminec001 (584) 2 years ago

"We stand in solidarity with those who are organzing the actions that are creating the fabric of our new movement."

Please, can you tell me who "those" are?

[-] 1 points by ARealNewYorker (227) from Brooklyn, NY 2 years ago

I promise I'm being completely sincere here, and not trying to be insulting in any way - go to your local occupation and find out. You will meet people directly who are responsible for organizing this; no one is trying to hide. You can come down to OWS, go to the info table, they will give you information about when and where different groups' organization meetings are run (you won't be given proper names, but that's only because we respect the right to privacy and we know there are people who will abuse the information if they get it through a public medium; if you go to a meeting, you can speak to people directly). Again, I mean this sincerely - even if you have reservations about the Occupy movement, we do want to hear from you. That's the promise of our slogan.

[-] 1 points by yasminec001 (584) 2 years ago

I can see your sincerity, and thank you. I really really love this Occupy movement and the fact that it is world-wide. I just really want to know some details. It's been a little hectic at the GA meetings in Miami, but I'll push for some info next time I go.

Thanks.

[-] 1 points by ARealNewYorker (227) from Brooklyn, NY 2 years ago

The GAs are a little rough, so it's hard to get information from them. In NY we have the info booth and several smaller discussion groups. If you go to straight to the nycga website (not this site; there's a link on the top), you'll be able to get lots more information about our working groups. If Miami doesn't have anything comparable, it's only a matter of time (also, proposing something always helps!). The smaller Occupy sites don't always have this layout. I just looked at the Occupy Miami site, and that seems to be the case (I couldn't find a link to working groups, which are always way better for getting specific information). The NYCGA is working on making its site downloadable so other Occupies can share our format if they want, so hopefully that will make it easier.

[-] 1 points by yasminec001 (584) 2 years ago

Yes, exactly. I tried to talk to some people to create those working groups, in order to have a come-back solution for each issue that seriously needs to be addressed.

But so far, the NYCGA link at the top has shown me alot of information that I was looking for. Thanks! I appreciate it. And I hope you're doing well in the cold. I sent in a care package of about a 100 socks yesterday. I'll be sending in candles and sub-thermal sleeping bags soon.

[-] 1 points by ARealNewYorker (227) from Brooklyn, NY 2 years ago

Well, I live in Brooklyn, so I just go home at night. But people are staying strong. Unfortunately, the police came in and removed several of the generators in the park that were helping. On the other hand, they've allowed tents...

[-] 1 points by AkbarLightning (54) from Tillson, NY 2 years ago

this is the exact message I have been hoping for....I am so excited to see this very empowered approach! the 1% only exist because we have given into the illusion...now we have taken back reality, which is that we 'are' the power...I am so excited to be part of this...keep it expansive!

[-] 1 points by homebody (1) from Floyd, VA 2 years ago

For those who cannot read Hebrew, the "people's strike" in Israel has been delayed for a few days because of the security situation in the south. They will keep everyone updated.

[-] 1 points by itsaGthing (2) 2 years ago

Happy 1: My take: It's a semantic difference of no importance.

[-] 1 points by itsaGthing (2) 2 years ago

I wish the activists godspeed.

[-] 1 points by thebroadcast (3) 2 years ago

coming from Egypt it's crazy to see this stuff happening in the U.S.!!

plz check out this online documentary series on what's happening around the world today..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-X02B7_9Eo

[-] 1 points by ericdh777 (3) from Jacksonville, FL 2 years ago

Power to all the people!!! P.O.G!! (people over government)

[-] 1 points by JProffitt71 (222) from Colorado Springs, CO 2 years ago

In light of blocades comment, I would suggest checking the following sites out as well:

www.BeYourGovernment.org/

www.AmericansElect.org/

We have the technology to change our political system, we just need the people : )

[-] 1 points by blocade (81) 2 years ago

the only reason why government was considered "bad" was because it had been corrupted. People started to cry "less government" and it was because it did not represent them, it represented the corrupt private interests that controlled it and our elected officials. They are all guilty of treason, abuse of office, bribery, failure to protect the public and endangering the public.

it is time we take back what belongs to us!!

http://wesower.org

[-] 2 points by SwissMiss (2435) from Ann Arbor Charter Township, MI 2 years ago

Exactly. Government works when there is no corruption involved.

[-] -1 points by FreeMarkets (272) 2 years ago

No, actually we meant "less government". Not more. Less. Far less. Just to be clear, we want less government.

[-] 2 points by danielOWS (32) 2 years ago

The tea party wants to privatize and deregulate government. Thats what they do. This is very different then what is needed. I dont want to remove the few restrictions on corporations that still keep them in check (clean water, clean air anyone?). I dont think that the profit motive creates more efficiency and better schools and health systems.

What we need is to get dirty money out of our government, so that government can actual be of and by the people. If less government means less corrupt government that serves the 1%, sign me up. If it means less funding of the militatry industrial complex by our taxes, i'm in. If less government means deregulate and privatize and leave it to the market that once free of any restraints will be a great liberating force, then that is a myth, a farce, and works for the benefit of the 1%. That is neoliberal economics, and its a disaster. That is what OWS stands against.

[-] 2 points by SwissMiss (2435) from Ann Arbor Charter Township, MI 2 years ago

You are so right!!

[-] 1 points by blocade (81) 2 years ago

we are government, why would we want less of it, isn't that like saying we want less of ourselves?

lol - you'll eventually get it - but just so that we are diplomatic, what part of government do you want to get rid of, perhaps the part that hands out marriage certificates or tries to tell people who they can be with? perhaps the part that refuses to let us use any other form of medical treatment other than what the private companies that wrote our health bills for our elected officials, gave them fat checks for approving their policy and then promised them future, well paid employment opportunities for allowing them to take advantage of the people? that less government, we'd like to know..

[-] 1 points by sylrse (38) 2 years ago

You asked, and I'm responding- "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people"- Amendment X of the Bill of Rights

Amendments 11-27

[-] 0 points by FreeMarkets (272) 2 years ago

Marriage certificates not a federal concern

I would eliminate DoE, Education Dept, HHS to start

I would start a new department to police run on sentences

[-] 1 points by quercus (93) 2 years ago

are you a nihilist? nietzsche, in the will to power 12 outlined the 3 stages of nihilism. what stage are you? just curious.

[-] 0 points by FreeMarkets (272) 2 years ago

I'm a certified nihilist hunter

[-] 0 points by SwissMiss (2435) from Ann Arbor Charter Township, MI 2 years ago

And I propose a new department to give out fines to those who don't know how to use punctuation at the ends of their sentences. And it's "run-on" sentences, by the way.

[-] 0 points by blocade (81) 2 years ago

haha, that was funny... yeah, you're right education sucks, lol -- scientific knowledge will be common knowledge in our new system... people won't have to go to school to learn how to sell useless crap to one another, everyone will be able to handle all their own "legal" affairs and finance won't even exist anymore, definitely a massive change in what we will need to teach our children, they will be much smarter and less ignorant, thank goodness...

[Removed]

[-] 0 points by betuadollar (-313) 2 years ago

My feeling on this is that on the evolutionary scale the young have always been the warriors as expendable; they are programmed for the role. While those that aspire to be old and wise are perhaps already old, yet only they will survive to ascension.

[-] 0 points by Spankysmojo (849) 2 years ago

Let's start with a huge victory. Let's all close our bank accounts at one time. Then and only then will they feel threatened.

[-] 0 points by FreeMarkets (272) 2 years ago

Fresh from "shutting down Oakland" with hundreds of people, we will now move to planetary domination. Set the starship engines to ludicrous speed, and get those cowbells ringing!

[-] 0 points by OccupyWallStreetButtons (16) 2 years ago

OCCUPY WALL STREET Pinback Buttons!

A portion of proceeds will go toward the local movement in the form of food and water. If you have a few extra bucks, drop off a box of apples or anything you can to the folks outside in your community!

Free Shipping Offer! http://buttonbasket.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=25

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 2 years ago

Oh yeah, I remember now - this is a leaderless movement. Takes me back to my childhood when my Mom would break up a fight between my brother and me then ask "OK who started this". We each pointed at the other one and said "he did" understood as "he's the leader"

If you are buying into the post above, there will come a day, when this so called leaderless movement will point at you and say "he is". Be ready to be betrayed again.

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 2 years ago

You above call to anarchy is nothing but a threat to me personally made by someone that couldn't see a bee on their nose until it stung them. Open up at least one of your eyes and take a look around. Not a lot of media coverage today, not even one article on Yahoo. Think they might of wised up to being led over the cliff by the pied piper You see a great threat from the local law enforcement. BOO HOO. These are not the ones you should be worried about. You are going up against Oakland right? Be very worried about those Americans living in Oakland who exercise their right to bear arms. Did you ever give any consideration to why that article is really in the Constitution - you thought some big bad ogre was coming in by sea didn't you. Maybe you are the ones that the Constitution was designed to protect us against. I do not advocate violence but I thank God that our forefathers has the insite to realize that there could be threats from within too.

You are finally showing your real colors for what you are. You could care less about the good of your fellow Americans. You are out to get what you want, when you want it, by any means you can force upon the rest of us - and yes, I would gladly not be in either the 99% or the 1% if push does come to shove.

But I really don't think that will happen. I fully trust that there are Americans on top of this sick joke of an attempt to take over this country and impose their own laws and rule of order. And your name and address are:

[-] 0 points by oaklandchapter (0) from Oakland, CA 2 years ago

Occupy Wall Street is a joke. This website is a joke. You supposed protesters over there in NY are jokes. Stop with the false protesting. Stop cleaning up after the people you are supposedly against. Stop playing by the rules. What the hell is wrong with you?

I'll give you credit for starting something, but I won't give you credit for sleeping in a tent and merely hoping you'd get results once you awoke from your beauty sleep.

The people that start revolutions don't get 8 hours of sleep a day. Don't get 3 meals a day. They don't get pizza delivered. They don't lawyer up and they sure as hell aren't worried about a good-neighbor policy on noise. Ridiculous.

We're over here in Oakland and we're not going stand by and let the cops, the mayor, or whoever the hell it may be put up barricades and hold us back. We won't be cleaning up after ourselves until the revolution is over. I suggest you guys do the same, because from over here, you've gone from heroes to a group who'll just talk and won't walk through the barricades.

[-] 1 points by Scott (6) 2 years ago

theRevolutionCenter.com supports Occupy Wall Street

Warning: Anyone who loses their humanity in these protests will not win our support. We will in fact, be glad to escort these types, straight to the police. Anyone who is going to disregard the laws, and trample over people’s rights is no better than those we are fighting.

Your belief that you can be rude to those in the neighborhood is totally self-centered. Your belief that those involved in the Occupy Movement efforts are a joke, prove that you are not one of us.

It is this kind of behavior that will doom the movement. Before following the suggestion of an anarchist, I suggest people read http://therevolutioncenter.com/?p=7709

[-] 0 points by washingtonscum (0) 2 years ago

Socrates, do you think this is all a fucking game?? Do you really think any real partiot gives a fuck about the threat of prison in exchange for liberating America and helping millions escape the grasp of the criminals? Why dont you fuck off, you are a GOV MOLE.

[-] 0 points by goodoleUSA (-6) 2 years ago

I have a serious question because I've read these phrases bandied about this website. "The end of capitalism" "It is time for us to come together and build a new world.." "..shut down their cities and rebuild in whatever manner they are comfortable with and capable of."

Since capitialism and everthing you are against are clearly supported by the laws of this country, are you organizing to call for an overthrow of the government of the United States?

[-] 3 points by Frumious (10) from Los Angeles, CA 2 years ago

Some people aren't calling for the "end of capitalism" (some may be). What we're calling for at first is responsibility. Those that can't play nice- they need to be restrained. Those that caused our current financial crisis need to be held responsible. That IS capitalism. That IS the rule of law. That IS the function of government.

Take it further though. Do you really think that this is as far as we can go as human beings? This is the pinnacle of our existence on earth? Do you think that we can't come up with a way to run our civilization so that it works for everyone? Are you so cynical that you don't think we can do any better than this?

Why isn't now the time to come together and build a new world? You got a better time?

[-] 2 points by SwissMiss (2435) from Ann Arbor Charter Township, MI 2 years ago

Agreed. It's those who use capitalism to gain themselves off the backs of others illegally and unfairly who don't want to be held accountable.

[-] -2 points by r2D2 (-7) 2 years ago

You have to realize you are dealing with children here. They've never held a real job or had any responsibilities, live in mommy's basement and play on the internets.

They also have short attention spans, so this 'movement' is soon to be history.

[-] 2 points by therock (30) from Altona, NY 2 years ago

Again, r2D2, you have made a blanket-statement based on some of the more starry-eyed, idealistic expressions in this exchange. It can be a mind-bender to take in such diverse thought, some of which seems a little on the fringe, but, then again, what is "fringe" is all relative. Did you ever have dreams? Are dreams that dangerous? Sooner or later, we all have to negotiate with reality, but we should never let our dreams die. What are your dreams for humanity and planet earth? "Hold fast to dreams, for if dreams die, life is a broken winged bird that cannot fly. Hold fast to dreams, for if dreams go, life is a barren field, frozen with snow." Langston Hughes

[-] 2 points by lobbeton (5) from Grand Rapids Charter Township, MI 2 years ago

Pathetic.

[-] 2 points by Frumious (10) from Los Angeles, CA 2 years ago

http://occupywallst.org/article/military-veterans-join-99-wall-street/

... and ....

Let's see... in our small group in the San Fernando Valley, we've got computer professionals, realtors, random people driving up in Mercedes, Porsches and Lexus giving us the thumbs up and peace signs. Yeah- all children, no real jobs or any responsibilities... Yeah. Sigh!

Some might call you offensive. I just suspect that somebody crapped in your Cheerios this morning, and you just feel like lashing out. Have a good breakfast, a little coffee.... and please wake up.

[-] 2 points by therock (30) from Altona, NY 2 years ago

Love it, Frumious!

[-] 0 points by gr57 (457) 2 years ago

since they don't seam to know much history, it looks like they won't get that either

[-] 0 points by SocratesPhilosophy (231) 2 years ago

Be prepared for what you face in this movement, people are talking about new governments and removing the constitution I do not agree with this whatsoever so I feel if you are part of this you should fully understand the law so read this carefully the things you say can be held against you in a court of law.

Citizenship and Naturalization - INA §349

committing any act of treason against, or attempting by force to overthrow, or bearing arms against, the United States, violating or conspiring to violate any of the provisions of section 2383 of Title 18, or willfully performing any act in violation of section 2385 of Title 18, or violating section 2384 of Title 18 by engaging in a conspiracy to overthrow, put down, or to destroy by force the Government of the United States, or to levy war against them, if and when he is convicted thereof by a court martial or by a court of competent jurisdiction.

TITLE 18 > PART I > CHAPTER 115 > § 2383.

Rebellion or insurrection: Whoever incites, sets on foot, assists, or engages in any rebellion or insurrection against the authority of the United States or the laws thereof, or gives aid or comfort thereto, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States

TITLE 18 > PART I > CHAPTER 115 > § 2384

Seditious conspiracy: If two or more persons in any State or Territory, or in any place subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, conspire to overthrow, put down, or to destroy by force the Government of the United States, or to levy war against them, or to oppose by force the authority thereof, or by force to prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of any law of the United States, or by force to seize, take, or possess any property of the United States contrary to the authority thereof, they shall each be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both.

TITLE 18 > PART I > CHAPTER 115 > § 2385

Advocating overthrow of Government: Whoever knowingly or willfully advocates, abets, advises, or teaches the duty, necessity, desirability, or propriety of overthrowing or destroying the government of the United States or the government of any State, Territory, District or Possession thereof, or the government of any political subdivision therein, by force or violence, or by the assassination of any officer of any such government; or

Whoever, with intent to cause the overthrow or destruction of any such government, prints, publishes, edits, issues, circulates, sells, distributes, or publicly displays any written or printed matter advocating, advising, or teaching the duty, necessity, desirability, or propriety of overthrowing or destroying any government in the United States by force or violence, or attempts to do so; or

Whoever organizes or helps or attempts to organize any society, group, or assembly of persons who teach, advocate, or encourage the overthrow or destruction of any such government by force or violence; or becomes or is a member of, or affiliates with, any such society, group, or assembly of persons, knowing the purposes thereof—

Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both, and shall be ineligible for employment by the United States or any department or agency thereof, for the five years next following his conviction.

If two or more persons conspire to commit any offense named in this section, each shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both, and shall be ineligible for employment by the United States or any department or agency thereof, for the five years next following his conviction.

As used in this section, the terms “organizes” and “organize”, with respect to any society, group, or assembly of persons, include the recruiting of new members, the forming of new units, and the regrouping or expansion of existing clubs, classes, and other units of such society, group, or assembly of persons.

[-] 1 points by georgetaylor (67) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

The key words in all of these Title 18 cites are "by force or violence." That is exactly why we are a NON-violent movement. Anyone advocating using violence to forward our agenda does not speak for the 99%. If the police use violence upon non-violent protestors (as they have in various places already) the law is on the side of the protestors and they will be exonerated. When you see a police officer, start filming. The video doesn't lie, and is a powerful ally in court. If you see a protester using violence, try to stop them if you can or get those around you to start pointing to the person using violence and chant "Shame" repeatedly. Do not encourage violence, even in retaliation for police brutality. Get it all on video. Be patient. We will win as long as we continue to grow and to stand together. We already have the support of more than half of all Americans (according to the latest Times polls). More are coming to us every day. The enemy is greed. Focus on the enemy.

[-] 1 points by landofthelost (9) 2 years ago

Yes, every government that has ever existed has it's equivalent. And every Government that has ever existed has been replaced or modified in one manor or another. This is the natural order of things, it is progress.

But, if I understand correctly, the point here is that the Govt. is a puppet for the 1%. It got this way as laws were allowed to be passed, and policies created which favor the 1%, at the expense of the 99%. This is in direct conflict with democracy, which according to Merriam Webster is: "government by the people; especially : rule of the majority".

If our forefathers were here today would you expect they could be content with things as they are?

Our Country is faced with an ugly truth. We have become the modern day equivalent of what we fought to break away from in order to create this Country.

Perhaps a simple Constitutional Amendment could do the trick. Something like : "No laws shall be passed, nor Governmental policies put in place, which discriminates against, nor gives advantage to, any person(s), institutions, or enterprises over another, whether they be individuals, communities, or enterprises."

This would leave us all paying the same income taxes, all receiving the same governmental representation.

There will most likely be continued and escalating civil unrest until/unless something such as an amendment like the one listed above is passed and real change is mandated, or until the people just give up and live with 1% of the population controlling our lives and future. I don't see the later happening at this stage of the game.

There is also a strong possibility that the 1% may use the military and police (Government paid employees) to hold onto their power as long as possible, at the continued expense of the 99%.

[-] 1 points by SocratesPhilosophy (231) 2 years ago

Most of what you speak of can be fixed without changing our system of government, it can be fixed by removing the officials that are corrupt.

"A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand." ~Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[-] 0 points by jeivers (278) 2 years ago

Ok - maybe not a complete Troll -- Yes Our system of Goverbment is sound - its based on checks and balances and currently there are none because all three branches have been corrupted by $$$ and partisan ideology.

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 2 years ago

We are not fighting our government the Tea Party is, we are fighting Big Banks and Wall Street to claim our Constitutional rights back.

[-] 1 points by Concerned (455) 2 years ago

The Tea Party is "fighting" the government? How? By using the duty to vote? Are they calling for the occupation of anything? Are they calling for a "destabilizing of the economy"? Are they calling for the occupation of empty, abandoned, and foreclosed upon homes? No. They are exercising their right to vote to enact change. It appears that the occupy movement is the one attempting to "overthrow" something....

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 2 years ago

The so called Tea Party (Religious Right) is attacking our Institutions of Government and Obstructing the operation of Government. They will not let any of President Obama's appointments to Government Institutions be voted on. The so called Tea Party by attacking the peoples Institutions has declared war on America. Their agenda of forming a Christian theocratic Government is subverting the Constitution. They wrap themselves in the flag and Constitution only to subvert it. A typical tyrannical trick used over again and again by the forces against America.

[-] 1 points by Concerned (455) 2 years ago

Wow. The tea party is "attacking our institutions" and "obstructing" the operation of government. Kind of like Occupy Oakland obstructed traffic and shut down the port for one day. Kind of like how OWS is calling for massive default on mortgages and student loans in order to "destabilize the economy" and bring down the government?

First, the tea party is not a "party" in the sense that they have status as a political party with a fixed platform. The supporters of the tea party were AGAINST the bail out of Wall Street. But you probably wouldn't realize that because you only read the MSM which was out from the beginning to distort the message.

And the tea party is obstructing Obama's appointments? Since the tea party can't hold office....oh I get it, you mean the Republicans, you're just lumping them all in together.....I have to wonder how old you are or how involved in politics you had been before this "movement"....here's why...

Both parties ALWAYS block appointments when a new administration begins - Schumer (a democrat) vowed in 2004 to block ALL President Bush's appointees - I guess then he was a tea party person? Because ONLY the tea party blocks presidential appointees right? Blocking and recess appointments have been going on since before you and I were born....

By "attacking the people's institutions", the tea party has declared war on America? I wasn't quite clear on just what it is you deem "the peoples institutions" so I googled that phrase, and used yahoo. And guess what? Couldn't find one reference to it......so that sentence can just be totally disregarding in your post.....as can the rest of it - it is simply propaganda.

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 2 years ago

Well you bit off more than you will be able to chew my friend.........The Tea Party Republicans, are you familiar with that term? most likely not. Their the ones that where elected as republicans the last election cycle to the House of Representatives. Their leader has said that no legislation or Obama appointments will get through the house, as for the peoples institutions, that would be the institutions of government that the Tea party Republicans want to de-fund. I was hoping you where up to date on current events! but I suppose you get all your information from Faux News. The Institutions are the Government and if they are gone we have no Government. That my friend along with the Christian theocratic Government they are planning is declaring war on America. The Republican Party is a tool of the religious right and the Tea Party is the Re-branding of the discredited Religious right. The demographics are conclusive. Read.......AMERICAN GRACE WINS BEST POLITICAL SCIENCE BOOK OF 2010-2011.

Robert D. Putnam (Harvard) and David E. Campbell (Univ. of Notre Dame) have been awarded the Woodrow Wilson Foundation Award for American Grace: How Religion Divides and Unites Us (Simon and Schuster). The Wilson Award of the American Political Science Assocation (APSA) recognizes the "best book published in the U.S. during the previous calendar year on government, politics, or international affairs". .......This book which was started before the Tea Party, shows the demographic is overwhelming religious right.......................I think I covered all your opinions and expect a rebuttal with some facts not your opinions and sarcastic remarks.

[-] 1 points by Concerned (455) 2 years ago

Tea Party Republicans don't actually exist. The Tea Party Caucus first put forward by Rand Paul but actually started by Michele Bachman however does exist and was nothing more than a co-opting of a movement much like the left would love to do with the Occupy Movement. Politico has reported that many of the actual Tea Party supporters, who are people just like those who support the Occupy Movement are people, consider the caucus a hijacking of the Tea Party movement - or its co-option.....Many of those you refer to as Tea Party Republicans like Marco Rubio, continue to refuse to join the caucus.

Of the 289 Republicans currently serving in the 112th Congress, only 62 are members of the Tea Party Congress - hardly enough to do much damage to legislation. Of the 47 Republican members of the Senate, only four of them are members of the Tea Party Caucus.

You claim that the Tea Party Republicans have stated that NO legislation or Obama appointments will get through the house.....let's see just whether or not that is the case....recently passed in the House was H.R. 2410, or "the Foreign Relations Authorization Act (for Fiscal Years 2010 and 2011)" was passed in the US House of Representatives on 10 June 2009. It was passed by a margin of 235-187. Since there are only 192 Democrats in the House, then obviously some Republicans voted for it correct? And the 58 Tea Party Caucus members in the house could not stop the legislation from passing correct?

And as to the confirmation of appointees of President Obama lets see - Confirmation was just given to Stephen A. Higginson, of Louisiana, to be U.S. Circuit Judge; Confirmation John Edgar Bryson, of California, to be Secretary of Commerce; Confirmation of Heather A. Higginbottom, of D.C., to be Deputy Director of the Office of Management and Budget..

What you write is nothing more than the propaganda of the left.......

[-] 0 points by RichardGates (1529) from Fort Walton Beach, FL 2 years ago

the tea party, for better or worse, isn't "Doing" anything. and the people they voted for want to slim down their pay and benefits. how is that working out? cause they got co-opted. thats why they are hemorrhaging members

[-] 1 points by Concerned (455) 2 years ago

Thank you. "They" (the tea party) isn't doing anything other than using their right to peacefully assemble and their duty as a citizen to vote. They were co-opted by the Republican party and their message either diluted or distorted.

OWS when the majority of its supporters make their hatred of the right and their love of the left are in much the same danger.

Until the people - regardless of left, right, middle or indifferent march on the polls and vote them ALL out of office, nothing will change except that another movement was - once again - co-opted.

[-] 0 points by RichardGates (1529) from Fort Walton Beach, FL 2 years ago

MAN i love running into people like you. please keep spreading the word. rather, keep rock'n it, you are a rare find.

[-] 1 points by barb (835) 2 years ago

You can't fight big banks and Wall Street without dealing with the Federal government. They did not rise to be evil and corrupt without the government making laws allowing them to do so.

[-] 1 points by SocratesPhilosophy (231) 2 years ago

This all started with the Federal Reserve, in 1933 when Congress enacted a joint resolution nullifying the right of creditors to demand payment in gold. Soon after taking office in March 1933, Roosevelt declared a nationwide bank moratorium in order to prevent a run on the banks by consumers lacking confidence in the economy

http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/fdr-takes-united-states-off-gold-standard

[-] 1 points by barb (835) 2 years ago

Your right made by the elite. You are also correct that it is big corporations that own our government and their intention is to have one global government in the future so the elite can control the world's population. They are purposely bankrupting the masses to control us.

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 2 years ago

barb, it was the lack of laws that allowed this to happen.

[-] 1 points by barb (835) 2 years ago

No it wasn't, it was the changing of those laws set up a long ago to protect us. We have been lied to and misled for a long time by the powers that wish to control the world.

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 2 years ago

That's the definition of a lack of laws, like the repeal of Glass-Steagall act of 1933=lack of regulation of wall street bankers.

[-] 1 points by Concerned (455) 2 years ago

And Chuck1 who was it that signed that into law and then praised it in the media? Who was it that had the power to veto it but didn't?

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 2 years ago

And omission I'm sure he regrets, President Clinton should have kept a more watchful eye on the hidden agenda of the Republicans, is that what you are saying, am I correct in that.

[-] 1 points by Concerned (455) 2 years ago

Aw, google is a wonderful thing isn't it? It can tell you which President signed what into law and find you the quotes made on the day of the signing. Also wonderful is the ability to go straight to the record of the vote and see that it was bipartisan...which means of course that both Republicans and Democrats voted for it ....you do realize that don't you?

How they voted on the final bill that was signed by President Clinton:

Senate - 90 - 8 (Senate Membership R = 55 D = 45 Vacancy = 1)

House - 362- 57 (House Membership = R = 222 D = 210 I = 1)

That's bi-partisanship by the way - not the way it is defined in the Obama Administration where 1 member of the opposing party voting for a bill is called "bipartisan"......

Kinda puts the value of your comment that Clinton should have kept a more watchful eye on just the agenda of the Republicans at questions doesn't it? At least to any thoughtful person.

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 2 years ago

I said I'm sure they regret that vote! that was a republican talking point and still is"get the government regulators out of the free market and the free market will, solve all our problems! The Democrats fell for the con-job hook line and sinker. you don't fault the victim of a crime you fault the criminal.(Republicans)........so while your so proud of your ability to Google, Google the cause of the great recession and the Congressional inquiry results. then Google the Tea Party and the book American Grace: How Religion Divides and Unites Us.....and you just may learn something besides your Ideological indoctrination.

[-] 1 points by Concerned (455) 2 years ago

Aw, those poor innocent Democrats. They got "fooled" by the evil Republicans.

No thanks to your suggestion that I read a book by an author who would of course have his or her own "ideological indoctrination". I prefer to go to actual records to see what was said and in what context and who voted for what and why.........perhaps you should do the same...instead of reading things written by those who - because no man (or woman) is an island - will have their own ideological indoctrination fueling their work.

Contrary to what you obviously believe, indoctrination comes from all sides....you might just be a victim of it yourself..you could of course, google for the video of the Republicans in Congress asking for MORE regulation of the housing mortgage industry...but that would make you have to reevaluate your indoctrination that the Republicans want NO regulation at all.....

[-] 1 points by RogerT (36) 2 years ago

All this is based on "force and violence" and does not apply to a nonviolent movement. Calling for a constitutional convention is not "force and violence." Eventually people representing the values of OWS will stand for election in the now tainted political process in order to to clean up the political system and GA around the country will have to debate supporting them or not. This will be the beginning of the end of capitalism as we know it or even of capitalism itself. If there is any "force and violence" it will come from the 1% if or when they decide to repress the 99%.

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 2 years ago

A very True statement.

[-] 0 points by SocratesPhilosophy (231) 2 years ago

"Whoever knowingly or willfully advocates, abets, advises, or teaches the duty, necessity, desirability, or propriety of overthrowing or destroying the government of the United States or the government of any State"

[-] 2 points by GradyOgle (41) from Kent City, MI 2 years ago

Survival transcends ANY constitution. It's a human right.

[-] 0 points by jeivers (278) 2 years ago

The Constitution supports the OWS Movement - it gives us the right and power to reform governement so it serves "The People" and not the Corporate Neo-Feudalist State being run from Wall Street!!!!

[-] 0 points by SocratesPhilosophy (231) 2 years ago

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal. That they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness."

Declaration of Independence 1776

[-] 1 points by GradyOgle (41) from Kent City, MI 2 years ago

They forgot one, at the very least. Like, the part where everything on this planet belongs to everybody, because nobody can survive without it. I guess, they couldn't foresee the destruction that such a minor, left-out detail could produce.

[-] 1 points by SocratesPhilosophy (231) 2 years ago

By what right does everything belong to everybody? So everybody "needs" an Ipod or a stereo? Comments like this discredit the movement and will push Americans away from supporting it.

[-] 1 points by GradyOgle (41) from Kent City, MI 2 years ago

No, brother. Mass produced items are the opposite of what everybody needs. You don't understand.

[-] 0 points by jeivers (278) 2 years ago

Free Market = If you work harder you should get more!

I am a Progressive Socialist but I believe in a Free Market for labor and and business - we just need fair rules.

Strong anti-trust laws restrain monopoly power, strong labor unions, and government social programs help workers share in corporate success and avoid poverty in old age, strong regulations protect worker safety, consumer safety, and maintain the trust in markets that is necessary for capitalism to function and flourish.

[-] 0 points by jeivers (278) 2 years ago

I always love how people quote the Declaration and say its the Constitution :-)

[-] 1 points by SocratesPhilosophy (231) 2 years ago

It always surprises me some of the misconceptions people have.

The Declaration of Independence is important because it says the simple ideas that the people of America believe. It says that every person has the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness and that the government has to listen to the people. These things are what made America a country of freedom.

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 2 years ago

Concerned.....your reply that those poor Democrats where fooled is correct, thank you. As for the "Book Amazing Grace how religion divides and unites us"........It won the prestigious Wilson Award from the......"American Political Science Association" ..........a not partisan organization which lends credence to its impartiality. Can you say the same from any of your Books?

[-] 1 points by SocratesPhilosophy (231) 2 years ago

You responded to the wrong post he is above this comment tree. I would work on this rebuttal he will rip it apart remember he didn't talk about books but records and video evidence of his point. Have a good day

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 2 years ago

LOL Agent provocateur.

[-] 1 points by SocratesPhilosophy (231) 2 years ago

Only if "Agent provocateur" means i incite intelligent debate. :)

[-] 1 points by RogerT (36) 2 years ago

I see the quote has been changed. The real Socrates would never do such a thing. It stll doesn't apply to OWS but it might apply to the Tea Party.

[-] 1 points by SocratesPhilosophy (231) 2 years ago

There has been only one post I have changed due to the use of a word that another and myself agreed was not the definition of Libertarian, I used it only because one reference site used it and I admitted to it being incorrect and changed it without deleting the posts about it being incorrect.

And it applies to anybody calling for the active attempt to destroy the Democratic Republic and Constitution. I was not saying all OWS protesters were this way as stated "people are talking about new governments and removing the constitution I do not agree with this whatsoever" and never have I once said I disagreed with the founding ideals of the OWS movement only those who wish to destroy what made this country great not fixing the problems we have within the government that are making it less than desirable.

I apologize for not stating it more clearly in earlier post.

If you do not believe this I ask you to review some older post from the past few days on other threads.

[-] 0 points by jeivers (278) 2 years ago

Progressives and Libertarians need to agree on how to reform the Governement to serve the People and agree to disagree about everything else. Once the Governement is reformed we can all peacefully part ways and argue about everything else under a government that serves the People.

[-] 1 points by SocratesPhilosophy (231) 2 years ago

Agreed...

An enemy of my enemy is my friend.

[-] 0 points by jeivers (278) 2 years ago

OWS is a peaceful movement to take back the government for the People not overthrow it.

[-] 1 points by cat7757 (18) 2 years ago

To all my brothers and sisters in Occupy Wall Street. Do not fret about the "Submission to Authority," posters on this message board. They jabber on and on with their tunnel vision. The Occupy movement is to make a more equitable country and this can be accomplished with the US constitution in place. For those submission to authority folks; Wake Up!! For the Occupy Wallstreet folks - Keep up the great and important work you are doing. Enough is enough of this corrupt system in our country where everything is tilted towards the 1 percent. The submission to authority, closed minded bunch, are of the like minded crowd that cheered the killings of the kids at Kent State. March on Occupy Wallstreet!! Power to the People!!

[-] -1 points by SocratesPhilosophy (231) 2 years ago

If you are not one speaking of the removal of government and the Constitution then my post was not directed at you only those that seek to destroy what our founding fathers put into law.

[-] 1 points by barb (835) 2 years ago

The problem is that the government never followed the founding fathers of what was put into law. So if government cannot or refuse to abide by those laws then replacing them is the only alternative.

[-] 1 points by SocratesPhilosophy (231) 2 years ago

The government is just a word meaning a governing body of persons in a state, community, etc.

Our problem is the persons in positions of power that I can only blame myself and other voters for electing and allowing to get away with their blatant disregard of Constitutional law.

Bush, I admit I voted for him, do I still think he screwed up big time? Without a doubt but I voted for him and now the country is in mass debt because too many of us just took a guess on who was the lesser of two evils based off our political views and ideology not what history had proven true. But really what politician can be trusted and that is the real issue we need real people back in control where we know what our Rep. will say and how he will vote based off of what we want in our states not feeling like a night in Vegas when you go to the voting booth. Now like every other government in the past we are looking at collapse except with one great advantage, we have the ability to learn from all those governments in the past.

The national budget must be balanced. The public debt must be reduced; the arrogance of the authorities must be moderated and controlled. Payments to foreign governments must be reduced. If the nation doesn't want to go bankrupt, people must again learn to work, instead of living on public assistance. ~Marcus Tullius Cicero, 55 BC

Failure to follow his advice led Rome from Republic to Empire.

[-] 1 points by barb (835) 2 years ago

I understand that a government is just a word meaning a governing body of persons. As a whole, it still speaks for government but the truth is hidden in its ability to brainwash the masses.

[-] 1 points by SocratesPhilosophy (231) 2 years ago

That is why government should not be involved in education, conflict of interest. But that is the least of our worries at this time.

[-] 1 points by cat7757 (18) 2 years ago

Socrates, We can change the system within the current system. The current system is unfair - it is tilted towards the one percent. We have seen this before. During Vietnam the poor were sent to war while the wealthy stayed home. Many songs were written about the disparity but no song told the story better than; "Stairway to Heaven." There are two paths we all can go on as a human being: One path is the path of the neoconservatives (neocons) where money is everything, the other path is where you are a decent human being treating others with respect. The song applies to then and now. Right on brothers and sisters of the OWS - keep up the great work. Love you all!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9TGj2jrJk8&feature=related

[-] 1 points by SocratesPhilosophy (231) 2 years ago

It's not the system that is unfair it is that we have politicians and law enforcement officials that cannot be trusted and do not do their jobs.

We have strayed away from the principals of the Constitution.

[-] 1 points by barb (835) 2 years ago

The system has been manipulated by the elite so now it is unfair. They bought politicians therefore buying our government for the sole purpose of creating laws and loopholes that enable them to become the powerful entity on the planet.

[-] 1 points by SocratesPhilosophy (231) 2 years ago

By the way, good morning :)

[-] 1 points by SocratesPhilosophy (231) 2 years ago

That is why we must remove all these people from office and elect real Americans.

The career douche bags need to go!

[-] 1 points by barb (835) 2 years ago

It is going to be much harder then you think.

[-] 1 points by SocratesPhilosophy (231) 2 years ago

I never said it would be easy, not even a little but I must hold to the laws I expect others to follow.

[-] 1 points by barb (835) 2 years ago

When I younger I used to have the same faith as you do but as I experienced firsthand as an observer I found that the laws are corrupt. They are written in a way that suggests if you have enough money you can buy justice.

[-] 1 points by SocratesPhilosophy (231) 2 years ago

That is because we have to many laws that give to much power over us.

[-] 0 points by jeivers (278) 2 years ago

We need a caucus in both parties to run candidates in all primaries where the caucus members (both Libertarians in the GOP and Progressives in the Democratic Party have agreed on fundamental reforms to give the Government back to the People -- any one who runs on caucus principles in either party and betrays them gets the boot immediately in the next election regardless of any other issues -- Reform the Government First so it serves the people!

[-] 1 points by SocratesPhilosophy (231) 2 years ago

Agree on all but one thing...

This whole party crap has to go, we go with a one party system of independents so people have to see and listen to what the man or woman is all about not like the GOP debates when they want to dodge a question they just start ranting about "Obama is bad mmkay" and then get applause because everyone is a drone to the party and it happens on both sides.

[-] 0 points by jeivers (278) 2 years ago

Yes I agree with you - but I believe what I said as a first step for influence until we can get a nationwide Open Primary process with instant-runoff voting then the two party system will fade as obsolete.

[-] 0 points by jeivers (278) 2 years ago

I am a Veteran and a vocal OWS supporter and as far as I am concerned the US Flag and Constitution are both rallying principles and symbols of our movement and cause.

[-] -1 points by MarxLenin (0) 2 years ago

As a philosopher (?) you should know that history does not stand still. And it is conflict that drives it. The 99% didn't ask for it, the 1 % is forcing it. By the way, Krugmann put our an interesting piece analysing that 1% and concluded that it is actually the top 0.1% that has been getting a bigger and bigger piece of the cake over the last 30 years.They are really the ones that constitute the all powerful US-Oligarchy.

What you cited above is a bunch of words that the 1% of the past wrote into law to secure their power and influence - not to show off how well they could formulate sentences. Of course, the formulas could also apply to protecting a truely just and democratic form of governing - as Che said the revolution has to protect itself. America was revolutionary a long time ago, but has become quite a reactionary country in the past few decades.
Another bunch of word say "one people, under God etc." or the "right to civil disobedience, if...". There are many sides to a story !

[-] 0 points by SocratesPhilosophy (231) 2 years ago

I'm just citing the law you will be the ones that have to worry about such laws if you say or do things that most Americans and our government would consider treasonous acts.

[-] 1 points by barb (835) 2 years ago

The government is breaking their own laws by treasonous acts.

[-] 1 points by SocratesPhilosophy (231) 2 years ago

But we don't have riot gear to address that situation, it will be dealt with but first we must be in a position to address it.

I'm coming from the school of thinking that two wrongs don't make a right, meaning we can't condemn them for something we are doing also or risk the appearance of being no better then they are.

[-] 1 points by barb (835) 2 years ago

Do you honestly believe that the elite are going to stop their intention of controlling the masses? We can speak until we are blue in the face but it won't be heard and it won't be negotiated.

[-] 1 points by SocratesPhilosophy (231) 2 years ago

Do you think if people like us with our beliefs and convictions were put in office we would be corrupted so quickly?

[-] 1 points by barb (835) 2 years ago

Not if you have the foresight to adhere to the laws that cannot evolve corruption and greed by allowing them to be altered in the future. It takes the wisdom of experience to never repeat the mistakes that is creating global chaos among its people right now.

What we are experiencing today has been in the works for a very long time of people of power chipping away at the legal system to bend to their agenda of power. They are brainwashing experts at manipulating the masses to believe their lies.

[-] 1 points by SocratesPhilosophy (231) 2 years ago

Exactly, the people of power need to be removed and term limits need to be reduced no more lifers.

[-] 1 points by landofthelost (9) 2 years ago

You are the only one I have seen who has mentioned overthrowing the government. Are you sure your not an elected representative?

[-] 1 points by SocratesPhilosophy (231) 2 years ago

I ask you to review earlier threads.

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 2 years ago

I've seen nor heard anyone advocate the over throw of the Government, This Occupy Wall Street not Occupy our Government.

[-] 1 points by SocratesPhilosophy (231) 2 years ago

Again if you are not one of them then it was not aimed at you nor do I think all OWS protesters are this way.

I will ask if you noticed The Oakland Liberation Front. Also look for post by one named Struggleforfreedom80 and another named Blocade to see what I am talking about

[-] 0 points by jeivers (278) 2 years ago

Fear monger! Troll probably!

[-] 1 points by SocratesPhilosophy (231) 2 years ago

For bringing up a honest point and citing federal law?

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 2 years ago

Agent provocateur.

[-] 1 points by SocratesPhilosophy (231) 2 years ago

You Sir are a troll.

Have I been rude?

Have I insulted anybody?

Have I not responded to all reply's in a polite and civil manner?

This will be my last reply to you Sir, have a good evening.

[-] 0 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 2 years ago

Your posts will no longer be answered by Me. Go back to your agency and tell them you where found out.

[-] 0 points by TheMAX (2) 2 years ago

Socrates... What's the penalty for plagiarism?

[-] 1 points by SocratesPhilosophy (231) 2 years ago

citing federal law?

plagiarism:The practice of taking someone else's work or ideas and passing them off as one's own.

Please explain how that applies considering I point out it's the law and please look up Socratic method and his philosophy

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 2 years ago

Socrates - Don't even give ThEMAX the courtesy of replying to that question. Probably wouldn't know plagiarism if someone used his own words right in front of him:

so: "what's the penalty for plagiarism" The Max?? Even got a clue? When did you put a copyright or registration on these great documents??

[-] -1 points by ithink (761) from York, PA 2 years ago

"people are talking".. yes, they are! and they have every right to do so. They are standing up and taking responsibility for their lives, their actions, their country. We must. We simply must do this. Don't be afraid.

[-] 1 points by hairlessOrphan (522) 2 years ago

Don't be an idiot. We "must" do something, but anarchy isn't what we must do. Live a life of discernment. Learn to tell the difference between "a good solution" and "any change at all."

[-] 1 points by SocratesPhilosophy (231) 2 years ago

Talking about fixing a problem through legal means is not an issue it's the talks of overthrowing the government that will get you in trouble

[-] 1 points by BreadLandPeace (359) 2 years ago

Thanks for your reply to some of my earlier posts, and I admire your vocabulary ("inclement" supreme court justices).

What's the legal situation regarding "replacing"--not overthrowing--the current American government with independent party candidates who support the 99%? Thank you.

[-] 1 points by SocratesPhilosophy (231) 2 years ago

(I don't believe we have spoke before)

I would ask what you mean by replace the government.

Is it to do away with the Democratic Republic or just to remove the corrupt officials? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think your asking about replacing the officials with competent ones and by no means is that illegal or unjust in fact I support it fully.

I am all for voting for the man (or woman) not the party and I believe there are very few politicians if any at all that are not corrupt in just wanting to expand their political career along with their bank account.

And to clarify, I do not oppose peaceful protest, speaking up about something you believe to be wrong or voting for/electing officials that you see fit for the position.

[-] 1 points by barb (835) 2 years ago

It is the laws that must be changed that reduces corruption to take place. The politicians, the officials, etc. all have too much freedom to write up any new law they see fit making it complicated and hard to pinpoint what exactly does it mean and who does it effect. This is intentionally so the public think that what they are voting for is not what this ballot means in reality.

[-] 1 points by SocratesPhilosophy (231) 2 years ago

More laws, less justice. ~Marcus Tullius Cicero (42 BC)

We need to vote out all these people or just remove them from office, history has shown us a republic is the freest form of government except the Bill of Rights has been trashed by corrupt politicians and judges. It has already been shown to work in its natural form by making us the great country we were before the distortion of law due to corruption. We need real people back in control, the people we are telling to fix it are the same people that are bringing us down.

[-] 1 points by barb (835) 2 years ago

After doing more research on this subject, the plan to make the masses poor has been in the works for some time by the elite. This is going to be battle that has never before been a global fight from the masses towards the elite.

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 2 years ago

Socrates, whats wrong with you? Are you trying to get someone to say they want a revolt! it sure sounds that way to Me.

[-] 1 points by landofthelost (9) 2 years ago

chuck1al, I suspect he's working a homeland security angle. Or else recruiting terrorists. After all, he (or she) is the only one talking about government overthrow.

[-] 1 points by SocratesPhilosophy (231) 2 years ago

Read comments on more threads like ones from someone name struggleforfreedom80 and another named blocade or what about The Oakland Liberation Front.

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 2 years ago

I agree.

[-] 1 points by SocratesPhilosophy (231) 2 years ago

No, I am responding to many post I have read calling for the end of the Republic and the removal of our Constitution.

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 2 years ago

I believe your an Agent Provocateur.

[-] 1 points by SocratesPhilosophy (231) 2 years ago

By saying not to be violent?

Please explain.

[-] 1 points by ithink (761) from York, PA 2 years ago

Idealism is not a crime. Talking is not a crime. Visionaries are rarely implementers. The world needs both. I don't see any reason for people to be afraid to think on their own. Why not investigate every avenue through thought experiment? I believe, If enough people speak up, if people keep talking, very obvious truths will begin to emerge. Implementers and realists of the world will have the last say and act accordingly. So do not worry. :)

[-] 1 points by SocratesPhilosophy (231) 2 years ago

Everyone is entitled to freedom of speech but nothing protects them from the natural consequences associated with those actions.

[-] 1 points by SwissMiss (2435) from Ann Arbor Charter Township, MI 2 years ago

agreed

[-] -3 points by r2D2 (-7) 2 years ago

You anarchist-wannabes are disgusting. And whoever is writing the claptrap crap for this website needs to grow up.

You people couldn't organize your way out of a paper bag.

[-] 1 points by HappyLove (143) 2 years ago

But more people stand together here, than have ever stood with you.

[-] 0 points by Perspective (-243) 2 years ago

That's an assumption with no basis in fact.

[-] 1 points by Sleepyhead (1) 2 years ago

@r2D2..Nevermind....just go back to your live or like me back to sleep.

[-] 1 points by TheMAX (2) 2 years ago

It's not Anarchy to desire accountability. You may be right about the lack of organization to find the way out of the paper bag. First-of-all, sitting around and talking about what's wrong, while throwing hypothetical solution(s) to the problem(s), will probably not work. I truly believe that our Civil Courts is the next best move out of the so-called paper bag... Make the guilty of the 1% 'PAY' for their Criminal Negligence! Yes/No!?

[-] 1 points by SocratesPhilosophy (231) 2 years ago

Those guilty of crimes should pay and be punished, there are plenty without calling for those that came by their means through hard work not illegal activity or without calling for the destruction of the government and Constitution.

[-] 1 points by SwissMiss (2435) from Ann Arbor Charter Township, MI 2 years ago

No one ever said anything about punishing those who have been successful through honest, hard work.

[-] 0 points by Perspective (-243) 2 years ago

Actually I've had quite a few of you tell me that the 1% only got wealthy through dumb luck and not hard work. Most of OWS doesn't care how you made your money they just care that in their eyes you have too much. If you spent as much time pulling yourself up instead of tearing other people down maybe you would be wealthy too.

[-] 1 points by SwissMiss (2435) from Ann Arbor Charter Township, MI 2 years ago

I believe people are referring to those who are wealthy who are on Wall St. They aren't talking about someone who's in another arena who's gotten wealthy off their hard work. If you would have noticed, the protest is called OccupyWallStreet.

And, money is NOT my motivation in life, so becoming rich is NOT one of my goals. Happiness is my number one goal in life, and there are many ways to achieve that.

I find it very sad that a lot of people choose money as their number one motivator in life and focus on being rich and think that those who are not rich are lazy, unmotivated, ignorant, unproductive people.

The only thing that would ever motivate me to try to become wealthy is the fact that if I was, then I could help others out more who are in need of help.

[-] 0 points by raines (699) 2 years ago

Money pays the bills, smiles do not.

[-] 0 points by Perspective (-243) 2 years ago

Why is the work Wall St. people do not hard work? I'm sure many of us here could never do it. As for money I agree that it doesn't necessarily equal happiness but one still has to live. I could easily double my income to $100k but I wouldn't be happy due to the time I would have to spend away from my family so I don't. Face it,a lot of people are just what you described,"lazy, unmotivated, ignorant, unproductive people." Why do you want to tear down people who are successful in their careers?

[-] 1 points by SwissMiss (2435) from Ann Arbor Charter Township, MI 2 years ago

People are referring to those on Wall St. who have caused the financial collapse and the housing market crash and those in the lending industry and the other parties involved in causing those crashes (legislators included). No one ever said anything about tearing down those who have made a lot of money from building a company, a product, or a service and who haven't stolen from their workers.... unless they are making excessive amounts of money while paying the ones who do most of the work crumbs.

"Why do you want to tear down people who are successful in their careers?" You're accusing me of something that I don't want to do. Please stop doing that.

"Face it,a lot of people are just what you described,"lazy, unmotivated, ignorant, unproductive people." That is another accusation.

[-] 0 points by Perspective (-243) 2 years ago

No that's not what a lot of OWS has told me. Some have even called for armed robbery and murder. Sorry if you felt accused,all you had to say was "I don't".

The last one isn't an accusation it's the truth. I see these people all the time,you would too if you looked.

[-] 1 points by SwissMiss (2435) from Ann Arbor Charter Township, MI 2 years ago

Well, if some have called for armed robbery and murder, then they are idiots. They probably are infiltrators to make the movement look bad.... or are just ignorant, as I said. And I'd bet they are very small in terms of numbers of protesters.

The lazy, unmotivated, unproductive people are in the minority and aren't the majority.

[-] 1 points by SocratesPhilosophy (231) 2 years ago

You two appear to have covered both sides pretty well and I agree with this last post I'm not against OWS only those who do not have a logical argument or are calling for illegal action.

[-] 0 points by raines (699) 2 years ago

You need "outsiders" to look bad,............you're accomplishing that on your own.

[-] 0 points by SocratesPhilosophy (231) 2 years ago

Being an anarchist does not mean lawlessness for the sake of bringing about a different form of government, it means having an actual desire for no government at all.

[-] 0 points by gr57 (457) 2 years ago

Lol no, but they coul try and twinkle-finger the bag

[-] 0 points by anonymouse (154) 2 years ago

Hey there, everyone. Just wanted to point out that CopWatch has caught Oakland PD officers on video, acting as Agent Provocateurs!

http://youtu.be/VrvMzqopHH0

Folks, you really need to listen to your instincts. Police are predators!

They have a different aura about them, and cannot shed that aura when they shed the uniform.

They are always on the lookout for trouble. They keep looking around, and seem to have more "personal space" around them than other humans. They aren't shy about walking up and asking direct questions. They'll fixate on tiny details that most other people would never see. That's because they are predators. Pay attention to this.

More than anything else, police officers walk differently than most humans. That's because they have to carry so much stuff on their belts. When out of uniform, they cannot walk without their arms extended away from their hips. They will walk as though carrying something heavy on their hips, even if they aren't. Watch their feet! If you see someone with a wider stance than normal, it might be because they're wearing an ankle holster.

Watch them when they're alone. If they look like they're perfectly comfortable all by themselves in the middle of strangers, but don't interact with anyone? Be curious. If you see the other signs, be suspicious.

Remember, police are predators. They are hunting you. Listen to your instincts.

[-] 1 points by Frumious (10) from Los Angeles, CA 2 years ago

We've got to really be careful. Police as a function- yes, I agree with you. HOWEVER.... police, under the uniforms, are people- with foreclosures, threat of layoffs, huge expenses for educating their kids etc.

Talk to them- find police off duty and talk to them as people. At protests, yell words of encouragement to them. Ask them to join us.

Their employment (orders) may still compel them to do the police things, but inside, they will be, and probably already are, rebelling with us. Grab a hold of that! Help them to break free of their shackles.

Remember. This is a movement of the people ALL of the people. Be very careful about creating a class of "other". It's no different than racism or sexism.

And, as anonymouse says, be careful. They are paid to be cops. You're not much use to anyone with a cracked skull.

[-] 1 points by hmmm (52) 2 years ago

I agree with Frumious. Dehumanising another group through such rhetoric is, IMHO, a bad idea.

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[-] 1 points by blocade (81) 2 years ago

the FED is one of the dumbest ideas anyone could have ever dreamed up, except for those who dreamed it up of course.

American politics was a joke, so easily taken was our freedom and so easily corrupt was our minds.

[-] 0 points by blocade (81) 2 years ago

there is no doubt that together we can build "heaven" on earth - those who stand against us only reveal their evil.

We stand for world peace and unity, boycott capitalism, this christmas do not give presents, instead give hope for a better world, a true global democracy and freedom.

we already occupy the earth and it will provide for us, replant your "garden of eden"

http://wesower.org

[-] -1 points by OccupyWallStreetButtons (16) 2 years ago

OCCUPY WALL STREET Pinback Buttons!

A portion of proceeds will go toward the local movement in the form of food and water. If you have a few extra bucks, drop off a box of apples or anything you can to the folks outside in your community!

Free Shipping Offer! http://buttonbasket.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=25

www.ButtonBasket.com

[-] -1 points by USCitizenVoter (720) 2 years ago

Occupy can end the misery and suffering in the world. All good people willing to share the earths resources equally with one another vs all the bad greedy people in charge of the massive amount of brutal weapons and manpower. This is going to be a battle worth fighting for.

[-] -1 points by PincheCabron (131) 2 years ago

Might be informative for folks to read or remember the example of Atlas Shrugged as they push for city-wide, country-wide or global strikes.

[-] 1 points by dealdoctor (148) 2 years ago

Who is John Galt? For sure he was not a fucking multi-national corporation buying politicians like popcorn at the movies. He also was at least a fictional human being with a good work ethic but damn the dude certainly was not a legal fiction called a corporate person. Galt damn dude wake up and smell the coffee. Ayn Rand was not living in modern America and we sure as hell do not want a top down tyranny like the one she knew as a child in Russia any more than she did. Bottom up grass roots democracy is not at all state socialism or state capitalism. It is a state of freedom and humanism.

[-] 1 points by PincheCabron (131) 2 years ago

We don't really want a Facebook democracy either. The tyranny of the masses is not better than a tyranny of a minority (aka dictatorship). We need a democratic republic of, by and for the people that adheres to the letter of the Constitution.

[-] 1 points by dealdoctor (148) 2 years ago

Of course. In any large society there must be some form representative democracy. It is not mob rule that is the solution. General Assemblies that send delegates to regional and then national assemblies, not professional politicians who give speeches and run popularity contests, and who are immediately subject to recall if they do not represent the local GA makes much more sense than the present corporation and money run system. The 99% have felt isolated, alienated, and dominated by wealthy special interests. There is nothing wrong with the Constitution and certainly nothing wrong with the Bill of Rights. The problem is that in function we are a Plutocracy and the Constitution is toilet paper for the rich banker run plantation. Aristocratic and economic royalists are royalists none the less. Democracy is a joke unless the demos runs the nation.

[-] 0 points by ARealNewYorker (227) from Brooklyn, NY 2 years ago

In other words, we should be thinking of libertarian pornography as we take the steps we've been pushed toward to demand accountability from the people who made the most of starting the race close to the finish line?

[-] 1 points by PincheCabron (131) 2 years ago

Not exactly. The notion of a nation-wide strike by 'voters' in response to corrupt government bears similarity to the idea of an upper-class beset by excess governance that goes "on strike", or disappears, as a political and economic threat.

[-] 0 points by ARealNewYorker (227) from Brooklyn, NY 2 years ago

Except that the nation-wide strike by voters would at least have the moral sanction of involving a greater number of people than the BS threat of the wannabe John Galts of the world taking off for wherever you can go and get your fois gras without someone to serve it to you (the only difference between the Galts of the world and the John Galt of Atlas Shrugged is that the fictional version was Ayn Rand's lie to the rest of us, the real version is someone lying to themselves about how much they can do without relying on their employees to do their busywork). All things being equal (and if you assume "strike" means "some group of individuals stops participating in whatever larger organism they belong to", all things are equal), a greater number of people beats a smaller number of people.

And, to respond to your other post, the "tyranny" of the masses, put in real terms, is significantly better than the tyranny of the minority. In the first case, everyone gets basic services and the self-nominating "superiors" have to suffer the indignity of not being able illicitly to extract more money than anyone can spend. In the second case, the rest of us have to deal with a specious formal freedom that serves mainly to allow plutocrats to use their power (their purchasing power, the power of managerial oligarchies legally sanctioned, the power of the militaries they've purchased) to extract depressed wages from the people they hire to do the jobs they tell themselves they do all by themselves.

[-] 1 points by PincheCabron (131) 2 years ago

Tyranny is tyranny, no matter if doled out by mobs or individuals. You're smart, you'll figure it out.

[-] 0 points by ARealNewYorker (227) from Brooklyn, NY 2 years ago

I'm smart enough to do math. We're already suffering from corporate tyranny - a much smaller number bullying a much greater number. Reducing the proportion would be a step forward.

[-] 1 points by PincheCabron (131) 2 years ago

Why don't you complain to the president and Congress about this? Corporatism needs to end, I agree.

[-] 1 points by ARealNewYorker (227) from Brooklyn, NY 2 years ago

We're doing both. I live and work in New York, so Wall Street is a bit more practical for me to reach.

[-] 0 points by Sanchez (76) 2 years ago

Apparently, Atlas shrugged cause he didn't give a shit. Save the retrograde philosophies for the Republican Convention.

[-] 0 points by blocade (81) 2 years ago

eh... there are no republicans or democrats where we are going....

[-] 0 points by Sanchez (76) 2 years ago

Right, and santa claus is coming to your house with presents in December. I dig the idealism and utopian dream but get real or let me have some of the drugs you are on. I was once young too but wishing and hoping and dreaming will not accomplish much. Best to build your own little commune and see if you can get along even with people with shared values. You will discover that even starting at this simply level is fraught with many obstacles and problems. Americans are too individualistic and can not get along very well, too selfish and materialistic. Hell, 50% of marriages end in divorce and that is in an institution based in Love, supposedly. But go ahead and dream. Don't blame you. Reality is a bitch.

[-] 0 points by blocade (81) 2 years ago

yeah, the marriage thing is such a joke isn't it - go get this piece of metal with that little thing, good now arrange this and that, let's all play pretend... pay some lawyers, some religion dude, etc - oh, time for divorce already?? ok, pay some more lawyers, let's get those fees people, come on now...

speaking of holidays, which ones are for the failed "economy" and which ones are really in celebration of something substantial again??

i missed the last 37 labor day sales, whoops..

bye bye capitalism

[-] 1 points by sam12345 (2) 2 years ago

fools, don't blame capitalism that has given u and us and them everything...along with corruption that we want to get rid off. think about the common order and the Free Market Democracy. where would head without capitalism, to the caves? Cabal has its answer... Think of the welfare states of the Nordics!