Forum Post: You are not the 99%. You do not represent me. You don't even care about me. Therefore, please stop using me as a justification for your behavior.
Posted 12 years ago on Nov. 16, 2011, 9:26 p.m. EST by Davia
(33)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
For months now, we've watched you call yourselves the 99%. We've heard you protest among other things, the banks, Wall Street in general, and the 1%. Even stranger than some of the vast topics under protest has been your reaction to the criticisms coming from the not-so-affluent. When asked by the average American to stop and go home, you respond, "But we're doing this for you!"
Much nicer, isn't it, to be able to justify your movement with altruism? "No, we're not protesting the wealth of the 1% for ourselves... We're doing it for all of the 99%! The greedy bankers and Wall Street execs are only in it for themselves.... we're in this for the People!". It's so much harder to criticize work done for the benefit of others, how convenient for you.
In the name of The People, you've left the comfort of your homes to occupy a public space so that you may protest, raise awareness, etc. As the protests continue, the needs of the protesters intensify. Basic needs such as food, clothing, shelter, clean water, sanitary waste disposal, are much harder to ignore as time goes by. Some of these needs are met with voluntary donations. Those that are not met in this way have been satisfied through forceful and uncompensated consumption. THIS IS WRONG. You've taken advantage of taxpayer-funded publicly accessible utilities, causing the cost to go far higher than the budgeted expense based on intended use. Or worse, you've used restrooms provided by stores and restaurants for their customers, without the compensation of your business. Because of you, stores have lost business. Because of you, their electric and water bills have soared, and you've made no move to help them. In fact, protesters/supporters have responded to such complaints on this forum with answers like, "it's a small price to pay for promoting awareness" or "this movement is so much bigger than a little water here and there."
Can't you just feel the love? "We're fighting out here for you ...we'll just have to do a little pillaging in order to get that done, and please don't bother us in the meantime with your petty inconveniences. But take heart! This is what democracy looks like!"
You want us to take you seriously? You want more of us to support your cause and your message? Then STOP allowing the unnecessary needs that you created to become such a burden on the people you claim to represent!
And then you wanted to shut down the subways? Why?!?!? How many 1%-ers, bank CEOs, Wall Street execs, etc., do you know who use the subway system? Or did the subway system suddenly shoot to the top of Fortune 500? Who was most likely to be hurt if you were successful in doing this? What were you trying to achieve?
Shutting down the subway system is no mark of a visionary, a hero, a reformer, or whatever else you might imagine yourselves to be. You are no more than the playground bully who goes around knocking down others' block towers, not because he hates the towers or those that built them, but just because it makes him feel powerful to destroy something larger than himself.
And as you gorge yourselves in your lust for power and importance, some of the 99% for whom you claim to be fighting will be using their lunch money to take a taxi to work. After all, SOMEONE has to pay for all of this representative demonstrating.
You've made it quite clear that it won't be you.
This has to be one of the most comprehensive and articulate posts I've read on this forum. You have hit the nail on the head.
Thanks.
24 votes? That's a lot of accounts for one person to maintain.
I disagree. Oil traders driving the price of oil sky high in collusion with governments, corporations, foreign dictators and shadow ops, this alone causes more damage to American families than any one day protest. Wake up and look around. Your country is being hijacked, stolen out from under you.
Then go and occupy theof every institution that is making record profits from this. GE for example. The out and out truth is that the actions being taken DO NOT hit them where it hurts, DO NOT effect the 1%, are foolishly misguided. AND who are the people or working body making these foolish decisions?! I question the entire notion of what this movement is a whole since there is obviosusly a heirarchy at work as well as someone bankrolling this. I question their motivation and call out the fact that the people following have become nothing more than sheeple. There are VERY REAL and INTELLIGENT actions to be taken that go ignored or cast aside to instead choose action that only serves itself not any meaningful cause. This is act not opinion. An end must come to te bodymaking these foolish decisions. This very website has become just a propaganda machine to serve them. It is time to move this beyond childish reasoning and decision making.
like dragging goldman sachs officers out of their building into the street and cutting their throats on live television. it'll never happen
who said anything about that velveetaFOXNEWS?! what the F&^*!!?! where do people get the nerve putting words or thoughts in someones mouth and minds. GO FUCK YOURSELF you and everyone like you. OR maybe YOURE JUST THAT FUCKING STUPID that you can't READ.
i made it up. wishful thinking
And when your democracy is being hijacked, you have a responsibility as a citizen to stand up, call it out and raise the alarm. Considering how many people have died defending our rights over the last 250 years, lunch money and a little inconvenience seems like a small price to pay to live in a vibrant and self-healing democracy.
It's always "a small price to pay" when you don't bear the cost....60% of the federal budget being used as social transfer payments is a small price to pay, 15 trillion in debt is a small price to pay....60+ Trillion in unfunded liabilities is a small price to pay...unless you want a future where you can make your own choices....many of us are tired of paying that price to carry your weight...
But this isn't a debate about whether we want social security and Medicare. And it isn't a debate about the national debt, where I would side with you. It's about big money and amoral corporations bribing our elected officials and undermining our democracy (ok - republic). You may not believe that's happening, but can you blame those of us that do for getting a little upset about it?
and...we live in a Republic, not a Democracy..
If this were truly a republic tis website and all of this wouldn't be permitted to exist. Don't get dramatic , be realistic.
That's another joke along with "democracy"
Great Posts!!!
unions are going to fuckup the school buses for 150,000 school kids in nyc, its called extortion
[Removed]
You assume a lot. I'm 52 yrs old. I grew up in a military family. I've never been unemployed. I make close to $200k. And I have never in my long life found a cause that I think is worth fighting for until this. I believe that our democracy is being undermined by big money and amoral corporations, and I believe the threat is more real than any outside threat we face. And believing this, I should just sit down and shut up? The only defense a democracy has is the active participation of its citizens. We have been passive too long - accepting the lies and propaganda and turning a blind eye. Just have an open mind and try to understand the root problems that have driven people to the streets. This isn't the lark of some silly drugged up unemployed college students. This affects us all.
The problem is the vry actions being taken and decided upon ARE in fact being made by unemployed college student. Instead of taking real and pointed direct action against our government supporting corporate greed they take action t disrupt the hardworking employed people who make up the very 99% they think they speak or. The problem is they speak nonsense in their very decisions and actions. Its time to recognize who is making the decisions and move this beyond a group of unemployed college students choosing to merely act instead of act with real signifance and intelligence.
Right on, my fellow advocate for the 99%! With true Americans like you on our side, we must and will win. I belive this is our last stand which we must win. Failure this time is not an option.
in order to save you 'over the long term' did your father die so you could live in a dying country? soon to be no better to live in than say the rest of the third world countries? you have to see that if nothing changes this will be the result.
[Removed]
i can see whats right in front of me. i do not follow any 'fallacy' propagated by anyone. "you have forgotten the face of your father"
[Removed]
Fucking ignorant fool discounting all stated by drventure.....hope you continue to enjoy feeling enabled to account for being ignored your whole life.
Keepin it classy I see. I have never observed a more pronounced superiority complex.
Yea, superior, except she never actually makes any sense or debates logically. She just rambles and spits out her hatred. I guess it makes her feel better but it ain't pretty.
I know, just following the same class afforded to the police and common folk just trying to get on with life without a mic- check, drum circle, or other conducive efforts......you got me.......
You'll just have to realize that when energy (aka money) doesn't circulate to all parts of the societal body, then eventually the body starts dying..First the finger becomes gangrenous then the entire arm...
It's really simple..The elite should also take notice that the head will not live without the body...
Cheers.
[Removed]
It's not just about OWS...OWS would be the festering sore that sits atop the plague that lies beneath, just a symptom of the larger problem is all.
I agree.
People should take this post seriously. Public perception of this movement matters tremendously and everything Davia said here may be a hard pill to swallow for many but it is real. Davia is doing this movement a huge favor by speaking eloquently about why people won't join and why support will be lost, though I doubt many will recognize it. Flash mobs, taking over the subway, this crap will all backfire tremendously. You want to win people's hearts and minds. You don't do that by scaring them, or pissing them off, or making their kids get home late from school because you screwed up subway service during the time of day kids are riding home.
agreed
[Removed]
i disagree.. they will think much harder about who they vote for next time and understand what is at stake.
when oil traders,( in collusion with politicians, CIA, oil companies, foreign dictators, warlords) jack-up the price of oil way beyond where it should be if it were based on simple supply and demand, and because of this prevent everyone from familes trying to get to work to schoolbuses to ambulances, etc... from buying other important things like food and shelter- that's what's going on, and you're worried about a handful of protestors standing near a subway entrance? open your eyes Me2
[Removed]
one day late at school for a good reason is not the end of the world - being ripped off, on getting a job, paying for you student loans, and the chance for a decent, by a few the greedy monopolist mind be the other choice.
You decide. This will grow and it is unstoppable. As history tells.
I'm very frustrated with the condescending attitude that tells us what we should be willing to give up or put up with so that you may behave the way you want to. If I choose to give something up in support of your cause, that is one thing. If I do not, then you have no business assigning YOUR values to any part of MY life.
You don't have to do anything you don't want - thats what this is about. I will not bother you what so ever.
Good God are you my mother in law? "I'll just come for a visit for a couple weeks, you won't even know I'm there!"
If I could truly believe that this was the sentiment of your movement, then I could respect it, regardless of whether or not I agreed with it. However, when approached with a list of involuntary sacrifices made as a result of your actions, whether they be as big as a negative balance sheet in nearby stores, or as small as an affordable ride to work for the day, and you insist that ANY of it is a small price for someone else to pay for YOUR benefit, your true sentiment towards the 99% is revealed.
I need to respond to that, because it seams that you have never suffered, no student loans to pay, (all Probably paid for), no loss in housing equity, no job losses, no lost revenue, no visibly police brutality just does not interest you, as long as not personally impacted. If what you write is written because of a principal opposition to the majority, then I respect it.
Because you don't see what really is going on. It really is not fun being out here, but I see that this is necessary and should have been happening 2-5 years ago.
The deeper details are quite simple, someone just need to open there eyes - between a Starbucks chat -in order to see.
please dont do us any favors. go home, go back to school, make a contribution and lead instead of following a group that has already been co-opted by political interests. unions lobby as much as the banks. more politicians are in their pockets than anyone else. and these are the people that showed up last night...
Harry if you want to cut class, just cut class, you don't have to make a fool of yourself, Be safe out there Harry, not everyone is as simple minded.
Simplicity- a art to master the complexity.
[Removed]
Amen!
BWHAHAHAHA! "paying for student loans" - you are an absolute idiot. you know what history tells us... if you werent smart enough to realize that you would have to pay back your student loan, you arent smart enough to be protest anything.
It's not a matter of having to pay back the money we borrow. It's about the way the interest accrues over time and is based off of what the dollar is projected to be worth in the future. I borrowed about $40,000 to go to school. I had private loans at 4.5% interest and government loans at 2.5% I think. After 15 more years of this I will have paid maybe as high as $100,000. This is what many many people are going through. How can I afford overpriced rent when I have to pay $450 a month in loans. It's been 5 years and the majority of my payments go to interest that continues to accrue.
You really are clueless...
Oh, please--the financial system is going to collapse whether the general public joins the protests or not. And then the status-quo-loving general public is going to pull their hair out and scream, "How did this happen?! HELP US!!!" My suggestion to the general public--especially those members of the general public who like to sneer at the OWS protesters for "inconveniencing" them--is that if you believe in a god, you'd better start praying to him REAL HARD, because you clearly have no idea how bad things are going to get in this country in the coming years. You will be wishing for the good ol' days of Occupy Wall Street. Just keep whistling past the graveyard...
When and if that all comes to be, do you want to be a marginalized pariah valiantly proclaiming "I told you so!" while the rotten tomatoes whiz past your head, or do you want to be in a position of power where you have won the respect of the people? Don't rush to answer, sleep on it.
Pariah, with a gun...
[Removed]
[Removed]
Very well said Davia. I have read some of the posts in the forum here and have come to the conclusion that OWS and the Occupy movement as a whole has a very serious PR problem. The basically good intentions and the OWS message is being clouded and obscured by the angry, obnoxious "fringe element" that is seemingly intent on destruction. I don't have an answer for the problem. But I do know if you want to win over "main stream workin' Joes" who are out here in the real world, the angry mob mentality is gonna have to go... like it or not. The message of OWS and the movement is a good one but it's not getting out there.
[edit] I am swayed a little more in favor of the protest aspect of this movement after seeing some of the videos of how dishonorably some members of law enforcement are reacting to these protests. I still hold that protest is not an act of creation, but maybe there is something that needs to be torn down if our "protectors" can casually pepper spray a line of children as if it were no less acceptable than watering a garden. Disgraceful... [/edit]
I've been saying since the beginning that protesting has a tendency to draw a line in the sand. It creates awareness and draws some people to your side, but it also entrenches the opposition and pushes people away. It's like starting an intellectual war. To me, that is a fundamentally violent thing. The greatest problem with our society today is that we are in a deep and divisive political and intellectual war. Digging the trenches deeper won't help unless you want to start digging real trenches, and I seriously doubt it would come to that, or at least I pray it never does. The only shovel that can work us out of the hole is love and unity. Shouting and slogans are weapons. They can only be used to destroy. They worked to destroy and end the Vietnam war, but this is not a war protest. There is no one thing to destroy. We need to create, and weapons, whether physical or psychological, will never help us create.
I couldn't agree with this more.
Could someone explain why I'm getting down-voted for this?
Sure, I'll tell you why.
What?
What, what? Protests are a form of intellectual warfare, they work marvelously against wars or policies that you want to end, but they cannot create something. What we need in this country now is unity and creation, not destruction. What part of that doesn't make sense?
They talk about overthrowing the government and crashing the economy, then minimize your objections as simply being about "being late for work because of the subway". It's thuggish psychological intimidation and snide and arrogant as hell. And I'm gonna say something else: I think it's a big fucking SCAM. Maybe the biggest one ever pulled on this country. Let's just consider WHO stands to benefit if the government and economy crashes. It sure as hell isn't the poor and middle classes. Someone has been reaping in mountains of profits from this from day one and is sitting on a ton of assets, telling everyone else to make mayhem. If we think we've already been fucked over by the 1%, I am scared to say we might not have seen anything yet. (And I started out as a strong supporter of what I thought was a peaceful movement for positive change.)
I agree. I see signs of purposefully acting in an illegally disobedient way to insight more incidents rather than sending a real message. Suspicious.
[Removed]
OWS wake up and realize how easy it is to get trapped in the MOB menatlity and this will be the end to EVERYONES FREEDOM.
@ haze2r1. Where is the freedom in this country? what freedom are you talking about. 1% have made 99% slaves here without you all knowing about it. They have created a system that makes them rich at our cost. 1% is monitoring our credit, 1% is controlling the police to keep their slaves in control. 1% is making students take debt to enroll new members in slavery. 1% is created medical insurance and drugs to make you sick on long-term so you keep them paying for health insurance. 1% (including FDA) is encouraging food that will make us get fat or allergic by filling all super-markets with processed food , genetically modified that bad for our health. OWS is trying to free people from this hidden slavery. Wake up folks if you still think you have freedom in this country. All you have is security at borders that probably makes you think you have freedom.
"genetically modified that bad for our health."
So, you're not just an idiot nutjob, you're an anti-science idiot nutjob.
The conspiracy theory seems illogical to me. If they profit from unhealthy people, then why are those the ones dropped from the coverage? If they keep that up there'll be no one left to cover, not a good indication of motive. If they are behind the scenes pushing processed foods, why have so many fast food chains began offering healthy choices, and groceries began offering organic lines? If they seek to profit from bad credit, then why have they kept the rates low?
On a side note, even if this were all true, that a small group of people were maliciously pulling the strings to harm us, NO ONE has FORCED anyone to eat processed foods. No one has forced anyone to take out a loan. No one (yet) has even forced you to buy health insurance. Manipulated? Maybe, at worst. But your use of the term "slavery" is inaccurate and inappropriate.
Chaos will just play us into their hands. Do I agree with you yeah. The way the movement is going will surely be our demise. UNITY and PEACE is what they fear. UNITY and PEACE is what they fear UNITY and PEACE is what they fear. OWS has only gone after republicans when in reality it's both. Leave the agitators behind and reach out to the tea party and watch how yhey will poop their pants
I think its time the protesters gave something back to the communities. Donate some time to charities and really get involved in helping their communities. I think if they could have their larger meet ups on the weekend, more people could go and not as many people's lives would be disrupted day to day. They have learned to talk, now its time for them to listen. I support some of the ideas. I support getting the money out of politics. I think there are things that more than 50% of the people would want to change. An effort needs to be made to listen as well as talk. You can't make war on the very people you are trying to help! Thank you for this post. Some people may not like it, but they need to hear it, understand it and consider it, ASAP! I think Move Your Money was so successful because people who aren't out protesting could join in without missing work. I think there needs to be more things like that everyone can get behind in their daily lives, wherever they are.
Being articulate does not make one wise. I myself do not claim to be oh so wise, however when I read this post I cant help but thinking "if only the people of america would get this pissed at the way our government has been deceiving and misleading us for generations, if only we all could stand up with this mutch outrage at the banksters who have hijacked our nation and world at large" maybe then people would get off their couches, take a stand and demand liberty and justice for the 99%.... OWS does fairly represent the 99% imho seeing that the majority are peaceful and well intended as most Americans and too seeing there are some real jackasses screwing it up, after all in the 99% you will ALWAYS have dumb A's.... I can see the point where schools, subways, etc shouldn't be infringed upon. Vandalism should not be taking place, people Should be picking up after themselves, and feeding themselves (save the homeless), and I might get some flack for this, but I dont see why OWS supporters, I myself being one, cant show up in the morn and go home at night. It still shows we are there day to day rallying for our basic human right to be heard. I also feel that just b!tching about the problems or "making the world aware" was fine at the start, but we need to solidly move past that to offering up and seeking solutions. Alot of OWS supporters would say that leadership is not needed, however having leadership (not controllership) from a compassionate, intellectual, articulate person or persons whom represent the voice of the people and who can begin to build good PR between OWS and other Americans would only expand the number of supporters...again imho...Organization, and leadership are vital to the continuation of any movement. Many Americans do not understand just how horrifically we have and continue to be mislead and deceived by the powers that be, and that mainstream media, where too many get their info, is so very controlled by these powers that be who only serve to benifit the 1%. We've been blind folded, and mislead like sheeps to the slaughter. Thanks to internet, the ability to get varied views, opinions, and uncensored news info has begun to open the worlds eyes and we are now able to see and begin to stand up. Dont be too harsh on OWS, nor be too harsh on those who oppose or do not understand the movement. Let us all become truly informed through diligent research outside of mainstream media and let us do what each of us feels is right in our hearts for the betterment of humanity. Pphew that was long winded. lol
i agree with you. i live in new york city, i have to travel to Manhattan from Brooklyn and back, and not only that but i am a high school student. i dont want to have to worry about getting to school late, or home late, for someone to make a point, even if they claim to care about me, or my future as an American. Its one thing to protest wall st- i completely support that. but they are the greedy ones, not the people trying to make a living, or get an education. i didn't ruin this economy, i didn't create the "1%," and i am not the "1%."
in the near future this will be the living conditions for working new yorkers .. and most large cities.. get use to it.. or work to change the cause before it become a reality.. you will be around 40 then and presumably working
I have read your comment 3 times and have absolutely no idea what you are trying to tell concernedstudent here.
Davia, perhaps some calmer discussion is in order here. Allow me to add a little light in the darkness that you have come to think of this movement. I am an avid activist in this movement, and I hear the pain and anguish that you have brought here, and I, for one, will be taking it to heart. However, I feel that I should point a few, minor things out to you. In every civil rights movement, there's been a degree of "expense" even to those that the movement has been for. Does it make it right? Perhaps not, but I digress to one, simple fact, the NY mentality.
I've lived in NY, perhaps not NYC, but I know the mentality rather well. "If it doesn't affect me, it doesn't matter." This movement has been dealing with violence, ignorance, and quite frankly mistreatment from every direction, where people seem to have blinders on as to what's going on around them.
The absolute apathy that has taken hold of those around us is astounding. To those that have taken time out of our daily lives to educate themselves and find the lies and deciet that is rampant in our country, especially in main stream media is sickening at best. Some of us, the anger consumes us. This too, is not right.
One of the greatest civil rights movements of history has even brought on the same kind of events that your addressing in your admirably worded post. It too, was met with criticism, apathy, ignorance, mistreatment, and it too caused a ruckus. In case your wondering, I'm talking about MLK, whom I respect despite the fact that I am far more white than a white person.
In NYC especially, you have to make a lot of noise to be heard, this is just a simple fact. People in that city have blinders on, and I've been told by residents there that it's a NECESSARY evil for survival there. I ask you..why?
That kind of mentality feeds into apathy and strengthens the clutch that has held us all for far, far too long. It's that same mentality that made it so that white people of the past didn't have to deal with the black community as a whole. Segregation perpetuated this, and until actions infringed on the comfort zone of the whites, was completely ignored. That is simple history.
I am saddened that the lives of a lot of people were infringed upon for one day of a movement. As some have said previously, "it's a small price to pay". Your comfort zone was infringed upon, granted, but sometimes that's what is needed to fight apathy.
It was said many, many times that this movement died the day that the park was taken from OWS, it's not. I agree, that the kind of statement that taking the subways said to you, and others like you was the wrong message. Your absolutely right, what CEO takes the subway system? Why the heck would they want to? For that decision, I want to say to you, personally, as an avid supporter of this movement, I'm sorry.
I do, however disagree with you on one, point. Businesses are not losing business as a result to the movement. If businesses are losing money, it's because of fear. Fear of what they don't understand with this movement, and fear of the police presence that, quite frankly was unnecessary from day one. Had better decisions been made from on high, then a lot of the fear that is being felt in NYC wouldn't be there at all. A small contingent of officers, around the park to be there in case something went awry would have been plenty, and NONE of this would have gone this route. There are other occupations that have done just that, and there's been no violence, no loss of business, no drain on the everyday working people.
So, I emplore you, don't just blame this movement for the losses to businesses, for the only places that are making that claim, are the places where they've been met with violence by the police.
I sincerely hope you personally read this response, and it eases your tension about this, because this is not about power for the people of this movement, it's for the power of the people, including you. I hope, that you can find the strength to bring your admirable words to a GA, and have your own Mic Check, because it's this very kind of insight that this movement needs. We want to hear your voice, we want to hear your perspective, even if you don't join on a march, your guidance, I'm sure, will be heeded.
Thank you for your time.
Davia, I don't agree with all of what you're saying but I would like to commend you for saying intelligently.
What a post like this drives me to be is more aware and perhaps to address these concerns. While some of what you've said I have personally found to be invalid - shutting down the subways as an example - some things do warrant attention. Higher utility costs for businesses in the area of Zuccotti for instance. I'm certain there must have been an increase in usage due to both occupier and observer/media use. Occupiers should be good neighbors and assist those businesses financially either through direct monetary donation or patronage. You can practice civil disobedience and still be a good neighbor. Ghandi and MLK would approve. I promise.
In this same spirit of openness Davia, I would urge you to take a good look at the state of your country - particularly the role big banking and "too big too fail" corporations now play in our representative democracy (pick republic if you wish. By definition it makes OWS' argument even more valid).
A recent a bi-partisan commission led by Bernie Sanders (One of the few representatives actually doing his job) exposed the Fed for what it is. A private organization of which the board of directors is primarily chaired by CEOs and other execs of big banks. These people are essentially giving bailouts to themselves. There is in fact a problem. That problem needs to be addressed and more and more it has become evident that our representatives are not willing to be the ones that do that. In that case the responsibility of restoring our democracy falls squarely upon the shoulders of the people.
I firmly believe if we don't do something now we will pay an even heavier price than recession in the not too distant future. We suffer a little discomfort now or we fight like dogs in the street for scraps later.
So I protest. I protest for my friends who have sent our resume after resume and still can't find work after nearly 2 years. I protest for my mother who - at age 65 and after working all her life as both small business owner and accountant - needs to work at a toll booth to make ends meet and sports a faulty pacemaker because she has no health insurance to cover the cost of the replacement. I protest for those who can't raise their voices out of fear for losing what little they have. I protest for children who's future is looking bleaker and bleaker and for college student who's degrees mean only a life of debt. I protest for my country which - while not perfect - I love. And yes, I protest for even those people who don't see my point of view because if they are not suffering now, I would like to keep it that way.
Thank you, Davia -- fantastic post. Spot on. I've been complaining about being represented against my will for weeks now. It is insulting to me. No one speaks for me. The businesses downtown are suffering, and for what? A cab driver today says he was stuck in OWS traffic for 40 minutes. Who is compensating him for his lost fares? This "movement" is nothing more than an elaborate Capture the Flag game and reality show. (If that's not the case, then prove me wrong, OWS, and take it to Washington where you can actually get the change you are shouting about.)
I agree 100% with this post.
You have to remember, there are some "99%ers" who work on Wall Street. Hindering their ability to get to work and do their job doesn't affect the "1%" as much as you think it does, in fact, it affects those you claim to be assisting more.
Agreed! Thank you! On point!
I agree... The money used in OWS would have been better spent paying for transpiration, food, provisions, a permit... to LEGALLY protest in Washington DC... On the front and backyard of the White House.
[Removed]
OWS: a bigger harm than good...plain and simple. and the fact tahat today you people want to rally together and shut down wall street and occupy the subways and have a "light ceremony" is not helping....its hurting. By shutting down Wall street you are stopping the flow of money that is HELPING get this country out of debt. Also what are you celebrating by have a light ceremony?? you have done nothing but reveal to the people that this country is full of more hippies and commies that we thought.(see your list of demands on your website!) You people are actually helping then why havent you actually helped us.....
More people need to this post.
This is a well thought out critique. I also comforted by all the positive feed back this post has received. I have a suggestion for the the OSW and like movements, focus, focus, focus. Unfortunately your are looking ADD. In my opinion, there is only one way to control the true culprit which is a Congress. Congress is the force that is ruled by the money interests and they in order to maintain office provide the laws or lack thereof that support greed. Congress, that means both parties are the problem. But the answer is not about throwing them all out although that certainly would be a move in the right direction. The only way the People can again rule is to rally behind term limits and make it a law that retired congress members cannot be lobbyists. Surely all the OWS movement can agree on that! Please pass this message on.
Term Limits, and more transparency in who donates to campaigns... Citizens United is the worst decision of a Supreme Court, even worse than Dred Scott. Citizens United has the potential to enslave ALL of us.
Hear hear. So many excellent, specific suggestions for focus, and none of it is being considered by OWS. Whenever I mention "DC" on this forum, it's as though I have three heads! "We have to take it to the streets! DC doesn't listen!" Well, they'll start to listen if you're 20,000 strong on the streets of DC. It's insane, this lack of understanding of what CAN be done with some specific goals. Personally, I have no problem keeping someone in office indefinitely -- if someone is doing a fantastic job, why oust them? The election system, when working, will oust people naturally -- we don't need term limits. I totally agree w/transparency. And there is much to discuss regarding campaign reforms….why aren't these the issues of OWS?
This is the smartest thing I've read on this site in days. But I predict it will fall on deaf ears.
Agreed. I'm not sure when the occupiers will actually go home, when they will be satisfied. Do they expect wall street to miraculously shut down in a few months? A year? Do they expect that shutting down things like the subway will make wall street change? If anything, these protests are adding more fuel to the fire.
a movement is not about ONE individual, get over yourself.
you must be a confused old guy if this is the smartest thing you have read on this site
Confused because, after 2 months of trying to figure out what this movement is about, I have no idea. I walked past the Occupy Maine site, and the signs were all over the map. I read the articles and the forums, and there is no clear focus. I'm told to believe it isn't an anti-capitalist movement, so I guess I'm supposed to disregard the "Destroy Capitalism" banner at the Oakland march. I'm told that it isn't a communist movement, so I guess I should just ignore the obvious Soviet-era poster graphics and terminology. I'm told OWS stands up for the 99%, but the tactics alienate and bring harm to working people, not the rich. Yeah, I'm confused. And if you think I'm in the minority, you are mistaken. And it's gotten worse, not better, as the movement has evolved.
you are confused - what part of 99 and 1 don't you understand - have you seen anything better come along lately - if you have point me in that direction. you read the newspapers - what have the 1% and the .1% been doing to the rest of us over the last 30 years - confused - i"ll say - going to the park right now - if you respond to me i will try to be more coherent next time!
Thanks for responding, flip. I gave examples of why I'm confused on my post above, so we could start there. I'm confused about what OWS stands for apart from being angry and wanting someone to do something. I'm confused because everybody is mad at people who accepted bailouts, but little if any energy is being directed at those who gave the bailouts. I'm confused because you claim to represent the 99%, but your tactics are pissing them off to the point that your popularity is dropping and many of them are bailing on you, as this whole thread makes clear. I'm confused because OWS appears to be self-contradictory, as I mentioned above. Please don't just give me new talking points. Respond to what I've said. I'm listening.
ok, one more - how about this guy - one of the founders (possibly?) of this movement - his name is david graeber - wrote a very interesting book on the history of money and debt called "debt the first 5000 years" he is being interviewed by somebody - "Almost every time I'm interviewed by a mainstream journalist about OWS, I get some variation of the same lecture:
"How are you going to get anywhere if you refuse to create a leadership structure or make a practical list of demands? And what's with all this anarchist nonsense – the consensus, the sparkly fingers… ? You're never going to be able to reach regular, mainstream Americans with this sort of thing!"
It is hard to imagine worse advice. After all, since 2007, just about every previous attempt to kick off a nationwide movement against Wall Street took exactly the course such people would have recommended – and failed miserably. It is only when a small group of anarchists in New York decided to adopt the opposite approach – refusing to recognise the legitimacy of the existing political authorities by making demands of them; refusing to accept the legitimacy of the existing legal order by occupying a public space without asking for permission, refusing to elect leaders that could then be bribed or co-opted; declaring, however non-violently, that the entire system was corrupt and they rejected it; being willing to stand firm against the state's inevitable violent response – that hundreds of thousands of Americans from Portland to Tuscaloosa began rallying in support, and a majority declared their sympathies.
[Removed]
i just read this on znet and thought i would pass it along - also i think that this forum is not a great place to try to figure out what is happening - too much crap! there certainly are people in all the occupy camps who are more than a bit "out there" but again that is the price you pay for democracy - seems to me.this is from znet ......Remember, 2011 is not 2010, and politics in 2012 will evolve even more. i Give credit to the Occupy Wall Street movement (and historic inequality) for redefining the political narrative.
Fifty-six percent of Ohio voters in the Hart survey agreed that Kasich and his allies "are putting the interests of big corporations ahead of average working people."
thanks for the response - too many people are just trying to cause trouble instead of looking for answers - not that i have them but i have been to the park many times and have my own opinions. first of all i would like to know where you get your information. what do you read or watch? we disagree on some of the most basic impressions of this movement. seems to me that first and foremost this group is making a statement that the country has been governed for too long by and for the very top of the income ladder. this is nothing new - john jay (1st chief justice) said "those who own the country should govern it!" so that has been going on since the founding of the country and there have been ups and downs in that system but things have turned for the worse since 1980 and the movement is trying to reverse that trend. to give people in the bottom 80% or 99% or whatever a voice in the system. so i think that should be the starting point for us if you want to continue the conversation. do you think the income gap has worsened since 1980 - do you think the system is mostly benefiting the top .01% and do you think we should change this in some way? yesterday at the park there was a well dressed man pushing very hard to get people to agree that they should come up with a list of demands - i could not disagree more. at the park there is mostly agreement that the wealthy have too much power and too much money and that is not good for anyone but with in that framework there are many diverse and even competing agendas. i do not think that is a problem- that is democracy - we all have different points of view on what should be done and we come together to decide how to move forward - which problem should we tackle first. i think the movement should be pointing out the basic problem in our democracy (we don't really have one - we have rule by the top) and the people should be discussing this and deciding how to proceed. ok, a bit long winded sorry - as to losing support i disagree - i talk to lots of people and seems to me more people are understanding what is happening and getting on board. if you get your information from fox or cnn you will not really have an accurate picture of public opinion since those organizations are owned by and speak for the .01%. i do think that our job (yours and mine) is to try to encourage support for this movement - educate ourselves and talk to people to help them understand what is happening. as far as their tactics go i am not sure what exactly should be done - it is important not to turn people off - the great thing about the group is that if you want to have a voice in how they proceed you can go down there and speak up! just an aside - after going to the park we went out for dinner (very nice place) and who came in for dinner - bloomberg - i pretended to get up to yell mic check and my wife almost had a heart attack - never saw her move so fast in my life - grabbed my arm and said "don't you dare!"
I misspoke. The banner in Oakland didn't say "Destroy Capitalism." It said "Death to Capitalism.". Here is a link to a picture of it: http://www.flickr.com/photos/frame_maker/6309821103/
Flip, thanks for taking the time to respond so comprehensively. But again, you didn't respond to even one of my confusions. You eloquently gave me your own opinions, which i respect, but you didn't clarify anything about the movement as a whole. I'll reiterate why I'm confused, and hope you explain these issues as well as you did your own views above. A movement that seems to be claiming to NOT be anti-capitalist is hanging a "Destroy Captitalism" banner at a major march. How is this not confusing? A movement that claims to NOT be communist uses poster graphics that obviously call to mind Soviet-era propaganda, and calls each other "comrade." Are they ignorant of what that communicates to people of my generation, or do they just not care? And finally, tactics like shutting down a port and depriving workers (probably union workers, ironically) of their income, does nothing to harm the 1% and much to harm the 99%, leading to the entirely predictable decline in OWS public support that we've been seeing. Your own views are interesting and well-stated, but do nothing to take away my confusion. I'm still listening, but I hope you'll respond to my questions.
sorry, i thought i did respond to your point about anti capitalist signs - this movement is a large and diverse group and since they do not stop anyone from joining in the protest you will have lots of people doing different and sometimes contradictory things. i have argued with the communists there that they are not helping this movement for exactly the reasons you stated. it is one thing for me to ask the Ron Lawl people, or the 9/11 conspiracy group or the commies to put down their banners - it is another all together for a group of "leaders" from the ows movement to prevent them from speaking. i agree it is a turn off for much of america but once you start banning certain groups we are on a slippery slope. not an easy problem but seems to me minor and if you count the signs i think you will agree. as to the port shut down it was my understanding that labor was on board - not one of my main areas of information so i could be wrong - no one is saying that they are perfect but it is now your turn to respond to what graeber said - i think he hit the nail on the head. you also did not answer the question about where you get your info about ows - there are very good sources - this site is not one of them! i am sending along something about the port shut down - not sure if it clarifies anything but i am sending it anyway!............The Port of Oakland’s last two shutdowns came as the result of Local 10 members taking solidarity action. The first was the Justice for Oscar Grant — “Stop Police Brutality, Jail Killer Cops” — action, where longshore workers closed five Bay Area ports on Oct. 23, 2010.
The second Port of Oakland shutdown was the April 4, 2011, voluntary rank-and-file action to shut down the Port of Oakland for 24 hours on the anniversary of the assassination of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. in solidarity with the Wisconsin public sector workers’ fight for collective bargaining.
The resolution by the Occupy Oakland Strike Assembly states on its website www.occupyoakland.org the reason for shutting down the Port of Oakland:
“We are doing this in order to blockade the flow of capital on the day of the General Strike, as well as to show our commitment to solidarity with Longshore workers in their struggle against EGT in Longview, Wash. EGT is an international grain exporter which is attempting to rupture longshore jurisdiction. The driving force behind EGT is Bunge LTD, a leading agribusiness and food company which reported $2.4 billion in profit in 2010; this company has strong ties to Wall Street. This is but one example of Wall Street’s corporate attack on workers. The Oakland General Strike will demonstrate the wide-reaching implications of the Occupy Wall Street movement. The entire world is fed up with the huge disparity of wealth caused by the present system. Now is the time that the people are doing something about it. The Oakland General Strike is a warning shot to the 1% — their wealth only exists because the 99% creates it for them.”
The importance of the Port of Oakland shutdown was that it linked up labor, the community and Occupy Oakland in a strategic action at the point of production. Not only was the Port of Oakland shutdown impacting the movement of cargo in the Pacific Rim, it also disrupted rail schedules, trucking scheduling and “just in time delivery” services for companies such as Wal-Mart, on Nov. 2.
I'm getting my information from a wide variety of sources, including several daily visits to the official OWS web site, which is where I catch such a communism-oriented flavor. I'm glad to hear there are voices calling on the more radically left elements to dial it back, but frankly you haven't been very effective. Pictures like the one I sent you, combined with the use of graphics and terminology that you still haven't addressed (reflecting official decisions, not the uncontrollable fringe) will cause (have caused) the vast majority of us turn against the movement. OWS is saying "we may look like a duck, we may sound like a duck, we may hang out with ducks, but trust us, we aren't a duck." Sorry, that's not going to cut it.
I appreciate the rationale for the shutdown of the port, though I still think it was tactically stupid. The response across the country, including among many who support the movement (as shown by the debates in the forum and comments on articles on the OWS home page), was "huh?" The public perception was that it did nothing to the 1%, and caused inconvenience and loss to the 99%, and people began to wonder about the direction of the movement. Combined with the violence, I think it was the turning point in public perception and the start of the decline in public support, so crucial to any movement that wants to gain momentum. Even after reading the explanation, I just think it was dumb.
this site is not a good source of info or a good place to get the flavor of the ows in nyc - the comments here are mostly unhelpful to say the least. i am sure you are right that i have not been effective but what about you? what have you done to change the direction this country is heading in? do you have a better place to put your energy - if so, go right ahead and let me know what you are doing because i may want to follow. i know (not think) that you will not find anything even close - they have changed the dialog in this country and on the corporate capitalist media in a matter of weeks (yes corporate capitalist - owned by and speaking for the .01% - does that comment frighten you or scare away the man in the street - i don't think so!) - they have forced the front runner, mitt to say "i support the 99%" - as to the port shut down i do not really have an opinion - what i do know is that i have never seen anything better in my 61 years so i am going to do everything i can to help. and you?? seems to me you are nit picking like too many people here - nothing is perfect - be constructive or get off the bus - find another bus
Multiple comments and several scrolls later, you still haven't addressed the communist flavor of the movement in the official material, which believe me DOES frighten the man in the street, and is causing millions of potential supporters of OWS to turn away and find another bus. The movement ignores that, and comments like Davia's that speak for so many of us, at its peril. I appreciate the exchange, flip. Looks like we're agreeing to disagree.
davia is a paid trouble maker or a child. sorry the commies scare you - how old are you - do you remember the commies who brought you the weekend or got you the social security you will need when you are 80. do you remember the commies who sat at the lunch counters when all the good normal capitalist white people said NOTHING when black people had to go in the back door! show me the official material that frightens you! it was the capitalists who killed my friend in vietnam and the capitalists who have run this country into the ground - no i am not a commie but i am not afraid of them - i am afraid of the respectable men - the ones who sent us to iraq - who watched while black men were lynched - don't you know the history of this country - get on the bus jack - disagree my ass! grow a pair and get out there and make a difference - get off this website and do something - you and davia!
Wow, the mask comes off. That was a telling post, flip, in both content and tone. Have a nice day.
Agreed, confused. Paranoid ramblings aside, when it becomes clear that someone is operating with the mindset that those who disagree can only do so because they are either evil conspirators or ignorant sheep, all chances for rational, constructive debate are lost. Kudos for your respectful attempts to have an informative discussion... You gave him more chances than most of us would have.
Thanks, davia. And thanks for sparking all this with your well-stated post. Like I said at the start, its one of the best things I've read in weeks of browsing this site.
Your latest post had no "reply" option (guess we found the subthread limit), so I posted here. Thank You, for the complement and the support.
google quisling and then look in the mirror - then send it to the old guy - they are not paying you enough - well maybe they are since you are not so bright - you are on the wrong side of history - if this were 1955 you would be saying "what do those uppity darkies want" - if it were 1932 you would be the poor dumb slob ranting against social security. i see only two possibilities - either someone is paying you to do this or you are really stupid - maybe you are just very young - so could you answer one question- which is it?
as usual you answer no questions - do you know your history - you and your reasonable white friends - the ones who have fought against change in this country for 250 years - afraid of the big bad commie. the mask comes off - come on - sorry the tone is a bit harsh for you - you should not be causing trouble for those who are trying to change the country - if you think the country is doing fine then watch tv - if not then do something but stop offering opinions about shit you know little about - have an nice day!
I regret the hostility of your last couple of posts, flip. I enjoyed it more at the start when it was more respectful. But on the positive side, I am less confused than I was. If you represent the movement as a whole, then it is understandable why OWS doesn't seem to mind looking (in its choice of poster graphics) and sounding (tossing around the word "comrade," for instance) like it prefers communism to capitalism. It's because it does. At least our dialogue has cleared that up. Thanks.
[Removed]
[Removed]
let me know what you move on to and how it might change the system - i will be very willing to join you but i won't hold my breath - i am sure you know the numbers, so your 98.999% is silly but maybe you and the rest of the 50% or whatever it is should get off the couch and do something - or maybe you are - just by being on this site and making divisive and stupid comments you are working for the .01% - do they pay you well or are you one of them or are you simply stupid - lots of choices there - let me know when you come up with an answer - and a better movement for change!
[Removed]
Its about social mobility and fixing a rigged system
Bravo.. best piece of truth on this forum !
Davia you are right. It is time the protestors pull back on the mass demonstrations and develop a formal organization.
This is a good dialogue - worth looking at by OWS. And I appreciate those who are seriously addressing it. I think discomfort in the name of change is normal, however, I think the discomfort I want is actually a taxation on the rich, getting money out of politics and an actual democracy. The protesting is useful to a point, but take it to DC, take it to your representative - OWS is so afraid/angry with the system that they want to throw it all out. I don't agree with that sentiment at all. BTW: I loved the OWS banner on the verizon building - that was excellent - made it's point without hurting people's ability to get to work or the little guy. It's a great use of freedom of speech - LOVED it.
Not only am I so happy someone is finally posting this, but to see all the supportive comments down below. I see more and more posts on Facebook in support of this movement that are coming from outside NYC. You have no idea what's going on down here and the only inconveniences they are causing is to the 99% they seem to represent. Take it to washington already.
Look, i think that in order to cause real change, SOLUTIONS need to be made. sleeping in a park for two months is not a SOLUTION. all i hear is problems from #OWS. when this whole thing first started out, i was completely for the movement, 100%, and i was (and still am) sickened by the NYPD. but #OWS is turning out to be a problem within itself, not any kind of solution for the people.
Thank you for your amazing post. You couldn't have put it better. Protesters have completely lost sight of what they're fighting for... they need to march down to the White House front lawn if they really want to see someone who can make the change. They are losing supporters because they're majorly disrupting the lives of those who still are fortunate enough to have a job. It makes no sense to me why one would bother causing this type of mayhem when it can be more of a hit standing in front of the White House. Get in the President's face! You're doing nothing where you're located except making everyone angry.
u guys like pancakes ?
OP got it dead on. OWS is the world's greatest tantrum ever thrown.
Occupying the streets isn't working. They need a headquarters, donations, an ad campaign. Showing how poor we are isn't gaining any attention. It's been two months and the higher ups have not addressed any of the problems that have been brought to the table. By not refining the movement into a more organized representation of the peoples' needs I fear that occupying Wall St. is going to end in violence. When asking isn't working what else do people have to resort to?
I was prepared to read an inarticulate counter-rant. On the contrary, your case is eloquently stated and is something that OWS needs to take notice of.
Great post.
Occupy has co-opted the 99%. It's a bit pathetic. I was there September 17th. I thought we would actually make demands and move the process forward. Instead we reached a certain point and then went "horizontal".
Does anybody remember this poster?: http://hummingbirdminds.blogspot.com/2011/09/occupy-wallstreet-poster-asks-what-is.html
All we've done is prove that this movement doesn't have the ability to work in the interest 99%. The post above is just another example of this failure.
When we went to war in Afghanistan and Iraq, it was mainly from some factions of the Left that were alarmed by the innocent deaths that the war caused. And all of that was due to what the United States was doing. Whether or not you are in favor of the war, the fact of the matter was that there was collateral damage. In a class war, there is also going to be collateral damage. It is a war that tends to be far less violent than anything the military does. It may have a bit of a violent streak in spots, but it is a rarity and does not correlate with the movement as a whole.
If I owned a business nearby an event, I would gladly let them in to use the restroom. Though I would have to stipulate that I can't provide free items to everyone, I would do what I could to provide things at cheaper prices. If I had a window broken, I would be extremely upset and would hope that such and such was dealt with by the protestors as a trouble maker. It would not at all undermine my support. In fact, I know of one fair-trade-oriented coffee place that actively promotes the movement. It is printed on the wall, though you won't see it as soon as you walk in.
We are a part of the 99%, but the 99% is not only us. The slogan refers to the fact that the 99% are manipulated in many ways by the 1%. Though I do share skepticism about the effective use of the term 99%, it is nonetheless a slogan that makes sense. Even those that disagree with us are a part of the 99%.
I have concerns about the effectiveness of some of the actions many of us are using, but nonetheless we are doing something.
If you do not want to actively protest, that is fine. There are other avenues to explore. You can educate people by passing out flyers in front of stores, for example. You can use public space to hold assemblies in favor of changes, in support of alternative economic theories. You can do some research and find out just what policy institutes your local corporations are giving to, and which ones use fair trade policies, and then attempt to expose them publicly.
If you made such a decision regarding the use of your place of business, I would respect that decision, and support your right to make it. I would expect the same respect should I choose differently for my place of business.
"I have concerns about the effectiveness of some of the actions many of us are using, but nonetheless we are doing something." Similar arguments were made when trying to sell us all on the bailouts and stimulus bill. Action for the sake of action isn't always the best way to go.
I understand that the term 99% comes from your protesting the actions of the 1%. My problem is with those who take that term and run with it in an attempt to give more weight to their individual opinion/grievance by appointing themselves to be our spokespersons. I have also seen some who would use the idea of "protesting for 99% of the country" as a phony altruistic shield to hide behind whenever someone dares to challenge their destructive behavior. These are two of the reasons behind the original title of the post.
This thread is a perfect example of why OWS CAN'T work in the long term. OWS works 100% like this message board. Anyone can speak, the "filtering" is done in a method that seems balanced (ie horizontal structure, direct democracy) but when you go to apply that in a large scale, it falls apart.
This thread is 365 comments (as of now) and the noise to signal ratio is already out of hand. (because the "vote up vote down" system can be easily manipulated, the bump system can be easily manipulated. And the absolute refusal to use a better infrastructure is dismissed out of hand. OWS cares more about "being OWS" than it does about fixing the problems.
As an example.. If someone came up with a valid idea on how to initiate REAL change that would make things better (A complete and comprehensive plan that would address the big issues that OWS claims to care about) but it required them doing things in a heirachical fasion and working within the system and going home tomorrow. THEY WOULD NOT DO IT. Discussions of OWS structure and suggestions are at: http://occupywallst.org/forum/so-much-of-whats-here-is-contrary-to-the-actual-mo/
Inaction does not bring change. If the people of the mid-east stayed home and did not go out and protest would their governments acknowledge that their people are clamoring for change? We want change real change not just a campaign slogan
I am 71 years old and I have seen this country deteriorate. Our higher education used to be affordable and excellent, know it is a playground for the 1%. This article should wake you up!
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/19/us/census-measures-those-not-quite-in-poverty-but-struggling.html?_r=1&hp
Where to begin...
good job! i think the "99%" don't realize just how small they are in numbers.
The best post on this forum to date and in the foreseeable future.
Perhaps you have another suggestion on how to enact major social change and raise awareness? Our democratic political process is completely broken and corrupted, so, staying quiet and 'voting' is not working. What do you suggest?
I understand that some people are going to be temporarily inconvenienced at times, and that is regrettable. But perhaps if OWS is successful someday, you won't have to make the decision between lunch money and a taxi. You shouldn't have to make that decision. Do you see?
There's lots going on to make change - there's organizations "to get money out" which just joined with Republic United. There's organizations such as the Coffee Party, and many others if you just google. The real issue is that OWS can't agree on any one issue - and being disruptive, making small businesses angry isn't going to help your cause. It's a bit like watching a child throw a tantrum 'look at me! look at me!' I have to say the root of the problem is 'money' in politics - this causes DC to turn a blind eye to things like REAL financial reform and makes them focus on embarrassing issues like declaring pizza a vegetable - it's lobbyists - simple.
Needless to say, I disagree with you. What organization or combination of organizations has managed to enact any significant/lasting change in the grinding money/government machine over the last 25 years? Name one, please.
That we can't agree on one issue-?; of course we do. Perhaps you are afraid to look at that issue and realize what it truly means to the state of this nation. That issue is the foundation; on top of that are million other issues, most of them related, but some of local interest. The funny thing is, when you scratch the surface of almost ANY significant issue in this country, the arrow points firmly and immediately to the fundamental OWS issue.
I'm really shocked at the ingrained cowardice of so many posters. This system will be ripped to shreds not by the mobs in the street by what is about to happen to our / your currency. Believe it.
The protestors have been non-violent from day one until the police were ordered to get ugly on behalf of all the Archie Bunkers out there. Do you know nothing of American History ? The revolution against central banking and market manipulation is almost 300 years old on this continent. OWS understands alot more than you can even imagine.
um, yeah... Thanks Archie Bunker. We heard all that crap when viet nam protestors filled the streets. How unfortunate for you that news on tv has you frustrated. But you and the many other 'Archies' today are as wrong, very wrong as he was then.
Viet nam should have been protested by at least 99% for the very same reasons and neocon mechanisms that are still in place today and resulting in the same game being played against us. OWS is right on and comes about 10 years too late.
You, Archie, if you use american dollars will see soon enough why being robbed by your own gov't is worth protesting.
You made some points about things in OWS that may not be optimal, so what ideas do you have to save this country "the right way"?
I truly believe that the best way to begin would be to narrow your focus, at least at first. Not to silence any voices or imply a hierarchy of ideas, but if there are a hundred different voices simultaneously competing to be heard, we'll certainly hear them all but can't listen to any. There are many topics that are being protested,and to try to sum it all up results in a goal that is too vague to be effective. This also creates uncertainty as to what your solution is. While it may not be the case, the ambiguity gives the impression that the intent is for someone else to determine and implement the steps needed to effect the change you desire. Besides, you know what they say about the journey of a thousand miles....
It would also help your group's cause if many of its members were less hostile to those that challenge them. There may be ideas with which some of us agree, and would support, but we've no interest in joining a group that insists that if we oppose any of their actions, its only because we are either evil conspirators or ignorant sheep. If our opinions are of that little value to this group, why do they expect us to value theirs?
Many of you have said that you truly are doing this for all of the 99%. As genuinely as you may feel these words, the actions we've seen and felt imply otherwise. When we complain or protest these actions, the responses angrily defend, justify, or deny any negative impact this has had. This calls into question your true concern for the 99%, when we see how expendable you consider us in the forwarding of your cause.
Your group has said that with revolution, negative impact is inevitable, but you've done nothing about it. You have many supporters. Could a portion of them be designated to accurately assess how your actions negatively affect the rest of us, and implement steps to minimize this? It would go a long way towards demonstrating and proving the interest you claim to feel.
I support OWS for their willingness to take some action. It may not be the best way, but it's the best thing I've seen in a long time. Our country is falling apart at the seems because we've all been too complacent for too long. Our leaders don't even make the effort to create elaborate lies like they used to. Now, the just blatantly kick us in the teeth every day. That being said...
I think there does need some focus. One or two issues at a time need to take the forefront. There needs to be some plan of action or strategy to make a difference (like "Move Your Money"). I'm sorry if you experienced negativity. That's not what the movement is about. There have been mass efforts to educate and share rather than discourage. Keep in mind there are plenty of trolls on boars like this posing as OWS crazies. There is a lot of money and power behind the efforts to make OWS look bad and keep it from gaining strength (for one example, see the msnbc tv release of an acquired lobbying memo I posted in the forum).
I also agree that the protests need to be more careful to stop small business owners and regular workers from going about their business. I for one am listening. Thanks for your straight forward input.
[Removed]
And as for the petition...I don't think it's BS. I agree that the goals of OWS are somewhat ambiguous because of the different groups that are supporting the movement. There are so many things that needed to be addressed decades ago, that things are now overwhelming. I liken our government to one of those houses that gets so dirty, the inhabitants sink into depression and give up on cleaning it. It is overwhelming, but we can band together and turn things around. I'm open-minded and listening to any individual or group that has something helpful to say.
I agree that we need some focus and need to address an issue or two at a time. We can't win every battle overnight (nor can we wait until the next election). We have to target a problem, find a solution and act. I agree keeping the strategies broad-based and easy to participate in is important (like the Move Your Money action). I also agree that some sort of organization would benefit the movement, though it must adhere to a strictly horizontal model (rather than our traditional hierarchical models of illegitimate power). More open infrastructure is definitely desired with 'official' places to get information/plan/share. And "you suck" conversations aren't offering any educated, productive content to anyone.
[Removed]
What I think we need is better connected organizations with a horizontal model or at least a model that restores our system of checks and balances (while considering the evolution of our country and allowing for expansions of such protections). If there does need to be some kind of hierarchy, it needs to be vastly improved and hold to a level of accountability beyond anything we've seen in our history.
[Removed]
Right on track.
[Removed]
Glad to keep this one alive!
Thank you DAVIA!
Excellent post and points. I couldn't agree more. I'm tired of the protests and I don't feel they are accomplishing anything at this point. We're all aware of the issues now, but the protests are becoming a burden to businesses, taxpayers and citizens.
We Greeks have spilled tons of blood for our Freedom but it worths the price! Don't let anyone to exchange that with money or promises! Freedom is priceless! And if you think that you are little in numbers just think that a spark its enough to ignite a big fire! Wish you the best from Greece ( Hellas ) We continue together...
Oh look, another person that doesn't want a revolution to inconvenience them. If you and the other anti-OWS folks were half as angry at the corporations and politicians that are screwing us over, there would be no need to protest for months. The truth is you just don't give a crap about what they're fighting for. Such stupid, petty complains. Where's your outrage over the corporations that buy our politicians? Where's your outrage for the businesses that are ruined by a recession caused by corporate and political greed? Cry me a river. Your outrage is backwards.
You are missing the point. If you are angry about corporations buying our polititians, take it up with the people in D.C. not the people of NYC.
We have given you two months. Your victories, according to the forum news posts, are occupying/shutting down public areas and bridges, and inspiring others worldwide to do the same. Your movement stops there because no one knows what specific change you are demonstrating for. If you do not narrow down your goals to a specific purpose, one step at a time, how can anyone give you the change you want? And what are your next plans? More occupations, from the looks of the news posts, but this time with more cameras. For what purpose? If you can't take this movement to the next step, then it becomes ineffective, and in the meantime, it's become a lot more than a simple inconvenience.
Whatever, dude. Just keep playing dumb, pretending you don't have a clue what is being protested. You watch too much fox news. And it's been two months, and you're not "giving" us anything. You don't give anyone the right to protest. We fucking own it already.
I'm betting the people who are living and working down near where your protest is going on aren't getting their information from Fox news.
Ok. It's been two months then. Noted.
They didn't shut down the subway system. That wasn't the goal. They went to the subway and told stories.
Tell the stories to the Washington folks, who can actually change things!!
Why not just go to their bosses? The ones with the cash they need to get elected. It doesn't help to yell at the employees.
Here here!
An articulate argument - but grossly distorted.
The fact is that over a period of 2 months the consciousness and discourse of the world has been changed. History Books will mark the emergence of the 99% concept.
There is an unchangeable shift in the debate about excessive wealth, power and control of the many by the few that was almost no-existent 3 months ago.
Even ghouls like Republican Eric Kantor must make a thinly veiled comment on camera about "income disparities" because there are constituents in his district that are unemployed.
The world view has been crystalized and the cat is out of the bag.
Whether you want to recognize it or not, you are viewed as an insect by the 1%, perhaps still well compensated, but when they crash the currency, you will be a victim of the manipulation and rigged game against you.
It has been a historic and heroic effort and these citizens should be commended for their intelligence and sacrifice.
at the end of the day, that is not what they are in it for - so your approval or disapproval does not matter much at all.
I am thankful to be represented by my fellow 99% OWS patriots.
This is a great post. Look, the disruptive tactics OWS is using are about GETTING ATTENTION. Getting people listening to you. Well, you've got attention. The world is watching. Now, what are you going to do with it?
It's time to figure out what changes are most urgently needed, and make our case to the American People. Not to the people already in Occupy.
The thing is, ows already has had the world's attention, and the opportunity it is being squandered by those who would merely disrupt for disruption's sake. Many people do believe the system is rigged and that fundamental changes are needed. But now that the world is paying attention, all that ows seems to be capable of doing is just to draw more attention to itself but what many people are finding and getting frustrated with is that there doesn't seem to be much good or constructive coming out of any of this. All this movement is showing itself capable of doing is blocking things, disrupting things, making noise, and the group has a real tin ear when it comes to projecting a public image. Worse, now there are very vocal people who advocate this approach who appear to have largely taken over the agenda. Make no mistake, these actions may feel like a victory but they are the seed of this movement's defeat.
Davia ...........You may be articulate but your logic is missing some blocks.....Do you like our new system of Government for the "corporations by the corporations".................................The Supreme Court says "Corporations are people now".........Do you like the income distribution of the United States..."Lowest among Industrial Country's"....Do you like the highest Poverty level since the Great Depression.....Do you like the destruction of the middle class..........Do you like the obstruction of our government by the Tea Party Republicans. ......Do you like the Tea Party Republicans agenda.............................................................................................................................................It is difficult to count how many essential laws would simply cease to exist if the Tea Party won its battle to reshape our founding document, but a short list includes:.............................................................................
Social Security and Medicare Medicaid, children's health insurance, and other health care programs All federal education programs All federal antipoverty programs Federal disaster relief Federal food safety inspections and other food safety programs Child labor laws, the minimum wage, overtime, and other labor protections Federal civil rights laws................................................................................................................... Indeed, as this paper explains, many state lawmakers even embrace a discredited constitutional doctrine that threatens the union itself.
silly rant. I admire the protesters. Somebody had to stand up.
Similar comments were made to our heroic Revolutionary War soldiers in the 18th century (of whom my 6 times great-grandfather in North Carolina was a member) by those misguided American colonists who supported the right of King George III to rule the colonies ruthlessly and with criminal intent. Thus we are not surprised when history repeats itself with clueless comments such as yours. Cheers! Have a nice day!
This sums up everything I've been complaining about OWS. You want respect? Act like human beings. Remember when George W. Bush said "You're either with us, or against us?" The way OWS has been acting, that should be your motto.
Please do not ignore this post
Wow, how could this insight be ignored? Please read.............
So if OWS doesn't represent you, who does?
I do.
I'm good with that.
[Removed]
ok, so its alright to bail out financial institutions, fight never ending wars and let our government be bought by the highest bidder. this is what is really breaking the back of america not the pittance spent policing these protests. if you could look a bit further than your own little world and see the relationship between government and big business and what this is doing to the country and in the end to you, you'd understand why people are protesting. look a little deeper you might be surprised and outraged
[Removed]
is this guy serious?
we're soooo sorry to inconvenience you... we're only trying to make the world a better place for everyone... i know its not important to you, but it is to us... do you think we are out there to have fun? i took off work yesterday (im not on salary so it cost me around 100 dollars to come out), i walked around in the cold rain, legs hurt, didnt eat lunch or dinner till i got home around 10:30, this was not convenient for me, but it had to be done... i'm so sorry it inconvenienced you and your sheeple friends.
stop being a punk and join us. we will change the world
Good intentions, poorly executed, get you where exactly?
how would you do it better?
I support positive, constructive actions and I reject negative, destructive, and obstructive actions. I would virtualize the GA and use it to organize and coordinate live GAs all over the world, to show how electronic direct democracy works. And I would use that power to influence elections and policy and company behavior. That could model positive change. That is showing how its done and leading by example.
And if I really really needed to demonstrate I would be over the top lawful and dignified about it knowing that I had the world's attention and that the real power is in convincing others to join rather than confronting them, sneering them, and driving them away.
sounds reasonable but the more radical members wouldn't be satisfied with just that i suppose.
Yep. And as OWS overall embraces those radicals and rejects reason, ows will lose the potential to affect mainstream change because the mainstream will reject it. The damage is real, and it is particularly damaging because it masquerades as strength.
ows embraces radicals as well as others. i see it as a rallying point for developments in the future. the goals of ows will take many years to come about. when they are reached ows may only be a memory. the establishment isn't just going to go belly up in a couple of months.
Embracing radicals is one thing, following their agenda blindly to oblivion is quite another. The goals of ows, which have yet to be defined BTW, will never be achieved workout popular support. Radicals never understand this, they see popular support as a sign of weakness. And the perception among many potential supporters is that they have taken over the movement, and terminally so.
we can only wait and see what develops
Or, we can try to advocate for positive things and speak out against negative ones, in an attempt to influence what develops. I prefer to take that approach.
Direct Democracy is the course we need, because it allows us to bypass the politicians through referendum. Please spread the word: http://vote.org/
Can somebody help me?
I am trying to figure out if the OWS revolution is a temper-tantrum, or a strategic catalyst for hardcore reformation.
What are the SPECIFIC demands that the OWS movement requests?
Is there any place I could find an itemized summary of the goals the OWS movement wishes to fulfill by virtue of their activities?
I hope the OWS movement is not an expression of anger, or an avenue of therapy for frustrated citizens. I hope the OWS is a credible organization with clearly defined demands and goals that, by advocacy in protest thereof, will materialize into solid, moral, and ethical action by our government and key private sector decision makers.
Please post a link as to where I can find such information. Thanks!
Go to the top of the page, Click NYGA, click "read our declaration.
At this time, the protesting is an expression of dystopian frustration. As with every major social movement, the first of those which begin to force a social dialogue to commence on radical restructures of the societal archetype are not those who have specific demands.
Gross social unrest in the form of protests are not terrorist groups, nor political parties; they do not have a list of demands drafted before starting to protest.
The first protests and riots of the civil rights movement were not began by people with a specific demand. Instead, those who could outline such ideals followed the genesis of that movement. Even the American Revolution followed this template; those with the articulation of agenda rose following the civil unrest.
There is nothing of an error in lacking a unified list of demands, either. It is enough for a people to take to the streets in masses simply to express their disturbing frustration with their residence in their current societal structure on a gross and vague level.
When rats are placed in an overly populated cage without proper provisions, their actions are not a list of demands for more appropriate space and proper provisions. Yet, it is understood as to the general reason for their unrest and evolving internal aggression.
In similar fashion, the same can be seen of the occupy movement. The single factor which is present in every iteration of the protesting dialogues, of which there is a large array, is social economic morality and ethical government responsibility.
In the past forty years, the constitution has been an ongoing argument of the letter. To which, addressing specific demands is quite appropriately understandable as a demand. This, however, is a movement which is consequence of civil spiritual unrest. This is a movement which regards the spirit of the constitution, rather than the letter.
And it does so by arriving to our streets as a result of civil decent amongst the economic class tiers of the society, in league with the ongoing decent in civil faith in its governing representatives and the archetype of the infrastructure by which they employ.
[Removed]
it would seem that if ows was founded solely on graeber's book it would have had a more structured approach from the beginning. the reason ows doesn't have a structured approach is to attract as broad a spectrum as possible. the mere fact of its existence and the bringing to the fore of the various financial and political injustices is a validation of its many components. ows is not an end in itself but rather the beginning of a process that will continue for years to come.
[Removed]
no, i haven't. i've been in europe since '86, couldn't bear living under a second reagan term.
It really doesn't matter if it began that way or not. The matter is about the gravity of social attraction, and the social attraction at this moment has little to do with any one ideology as it has become a general pool of social ventilation. Also, the reference to rats was regarding basic social psychology in social animals; the point was that even a rat, far less than a human, reacts under pressure in dystopian response and that even when the communication gap is as large as that which exists between a rat and a human being, it is conceptually understandable as to what the issues of decent are.
As such, it is clear, even without a dictated agenda of demands, what the conceptual issues of decent are that are the motives behind the masses of people that feel compelled to become involved.
Even if a person believes all participants to be manipulated, "sheeple", the attribution of their general emotional evocation existentially to their provocation of engagement with their action of protest is clearly driven by a generalized perception of dystopian disillusionment and frustration; again, something which does not require a specific outline of demands to comprehend.
decent,dissent or descent? i'm a bit confused.
[Removed]
This post should be mandatory reading!
I've heard stores lost business but I would like 10 specific examples
Milk St Cafe,
Essex World Cafe,
21 Jewelry,
Kenjo,
Boutique Tourbillon,
Bobby Van's Steakhouse,
Paternoster Chop House,
Panini & Co Breads,
And I don't know the specific names of the street cart vendors who used to make a living selling their products in the park, but hopefully by now the point has been made.
not entirely
I would expect crowds to be good for business
[Removed]
still not convinced
[Removed]
probably correct
I just used to work downtown as a bike cab rider
I would have been glad to see large crowd of people
[Removed]
I could work it
I would have to agree. This was done in the past for the people who said gave us Unions and the 40hr work and child labor laws. Well i'd like to say "HOW WELL DID THAT WORK OUT?' for the 20 MILLION (that is not a small amout of people almost 3 times the whole population of New York state) human beings that were starved, murdered and enslaved to Government. I have yet to meet a true and just sympathetic virtuous DICTATOR that cared about his people more than himself.
To put this post into perspective, let's look at the timeline, shall we?
For two months, the movement has been pretty much static. For one day, things got moving, due to the eviction of the protesters. Subway closed temporarily, shops unable to trade. For one day.
For the last decade, that's three thousand, six hundred and fifty days, give or take a day or two, the one percenters have been screwing every single one of those people who are now complaining about sixty days of protests about this decade long screwing over, (and we all know it's been going on for much longer than a decade, don't we??), forgetting that the protesters are doing their best to help the financial situation of every American in the 99 %.
How could anyone of rational mind consider this protest to be to their disadvantage, unless they consider themselves to be part of the one %.
This movement is now about protesting complacency. In a world system that necessitates structural and physical violence in order to operate, complacency is sin. If you don't like the word sin, then amoral or unethical could be better words. I understand that the actions of OWS are viewed by many as negative, in that they are stopping normal life from continuing as usual.
But in many places, "normal life" doesn't exist. It doesn't exist because of the greed and corruption that are breed in this and many other countries.
However, OWS does offend people with their movement and actions. I do not approve of the alienation that occurs for many of the people whom the 99% claim to represent.
I would promote more education using provocative theatre, as opposed to stopping traffic. Educative theatre was used by the OTPOR movement, (look it up!) and proved to be extremely effective in rallying support without alienation.
But who knows how the movement will shift in the coming weeks. With no single leader, the movement has the potential to go in many different directions at this point. The truth of the matter is, the way many of us live in this country (including myself) is entirely unsustainable. Simply read any article from around the world about recent resource wars and this will be made clear. Something must be done to make our lives sustainable. Peace to all affected!
Thanks for articulating this Davia. It's been interesting to watch this thing, and the more it goes, the less the average person likes it. I think it is arrogant and an absolute lie for these people to call themselves the 99%. They don't speak for me or most of the people I know, except for some young people with massive student loan debt that was acquired going after a worthless bachelor's degree, that will never generate an income to pay back the debt.
[Removed]
stay home all of you - stay on the couch and watch tv the way you have for the last so many years - what do you watch - some vampire i imagine - but keep your opinions to yourself - or go on glen beck's site
I just cross posted this to my Facebook…astute observations, and spot on comments, too. Thanks for posting.
Very well said.
Divide and conquer...the masses...
OWS a strategically orchestrated event....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCrC6GL7430
Those who offer nothing but criticisms, offer nothing. Why is it so hard to see that WE THE PEOPLE are frustrated with the inaction of our representatives to even try to work toward solutions to help our country , while bending over backwards to help mega business. Our streets are crumbling, our bridges failing, our water is becoming less safe, and the air we breathe is becoming more toxic. Yet, it is not "cost effective" to do anything about it. The rich are hoarding all the money we gave them, where are the jobs. The people want to be heard, however OUR airwaves are full of non-information. We own the airwaves but corporate America controls the airwaves. Our so called representatives have allowed the consolidation of the most necessary business, such as energy and communication assuring that the People are at their mercy. I am surprised that you even know about the Occupy movement as it is barely visible through mainstream media. The People want to be heard, they want those that received their votes to represent them. They want action on their wishes, not empty promises, made made with a smile and a handshake while the other hand is behind their back being greased by those that would not exist without the People. The have tried patience, and letter writing, and petitions, to no avail because the screaming of the dollar has drowned the voice of the People, now they are trying to scream louder...to be heard, that is their goal and reasoning. We the People have a message, and it is LISTEN TO US, we are the first three words of the constitution.
Your statement assumes that everyone feels the same way you do.
And your statement assumes they don't...so! I am very sure that most people are frustrated with some of the points I presented, but I would never presume to entertain the idea that all people believe the same. I also am aware that some people believe that everything is just fine, and it is best to not make waves. I also am aware that a few people use their massive wealth to influence the politics of the world.
The only thing my statement assumes is that you were making an assumption. I am sure there are some who feel the way you do but to say most is just an assumption.
Good gosh, vote them out!!! Stop whining and vote. We the people don't vote for change. We keep reelecting the same bums.
That's real intelligent, I guess you assume that none of the tens of thousands of protestors exercise their right to vote. Or you think that I don't. Voting one out and another in has not proven to work. Once they are in they are no longer obligated to represent constituents, and they don't.
Based on voting statistics I'd say that only approx 50% of the owsers vote, just like the rest of Americans. That's a sorry percentage for people who want change. Seldom have we voted one out. Congressmen spend term after term in office. Clearly they must be lucrative positions as they fight, cheat, and steal to keep them. Never in my life have Americans stood up and said enough. Without change, such as a balanced budget, we're voting you all out after one term. We re-elect them and the message they get is that they have support.
I think Davia has some excellent points. If the OWS was really educated they would redirect their protest and shouting to a place called Washington D.C. It is D.C. that has screwed our economy and not Wall St. and not the 1%. Did Bill Gates billions made from monopoly power with Windows or Steve Jobs Apple, etc. screw the economy - NO. The majority of the 1% are people who created businesses, made people's lives better, and have made immense contributions to charities, universities, and hospitals. Part of the 1% is some of the greedy Wall Streeters that you are so uniformly focused on but throwing the whole 1% into that bucket doesn't make sense. Now who authorized the bailout of Wall St - Congress!
Do yourselves a favor and try to understand how company executive are compensated, what really happened when Wall St was bailed out, how continued spending by the U.S. government will lead us to a Greece-like situation, and how lobbyists and 500 or so Congressmen/women have screwed our country over the past 20-30 yrs. It takes 2 to tango - Wall St along with investors looking for higher returns (because the FED lowered rates to unsustainable levels) and Washington's pols' goal of putting everyone in a house equaled a disaster. Some people are not meant to own houses - i.e. if you are poor then you can't afford a house. If you think lending to poor people is a good business then ask why 2008 occurred. Granted some of the 2008 problems occurred because of Wall St and its greed machine but plenty occurred because the mortgage housing agencies, Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae, provided $billions in loans to poor people. Corporate executives are overpaid in most cases but who do you think authorizes their pay? It is stock shareholders for all the large public companies. Who do you think are those shareholders? It is unions - teachers, laborers, municipal workers, company pensioners, individuals, and individuals including the parents of some of the protesters who can afford to protest and not work or go to school. Those 500 or so Congressmen live like kings/queens paid over $200,000 annually who obey their own rules (case in point is the recent book/60 Min. story on how they legally day trade), legislate a barrage of rules/laws that slow the economy and hinder those trying to make a living/start a business (have you ever heard of Congressmen eliminating laws/rules - no, it's a one way road). They continue to spend money that doesn't exist. If you spent 150% of your own income annually it wouldn't last long. The govt is spending over $1 trillion annually of money that doesn't exist. If you taxed all the billionaires in the U.S. all of their money it wouldn't solve the problem.
So educate yourselves because the colleges you attended sure didn't, rid yourself of the anarchists and the violent fringe movement, direct your attention to Washington and maybe some of the rest of the 99% might follow your lead. Otherwise, your protests are increasingly becoming an entertainment sideshow for the evening news and the cable news programs.
The only way to effect change now in America is take to the streets; however, the protesters should be in Washington instead of NYC. Congress is at the root of all our problems.
How did the people get into congress? Us, we voted for them. You don't like it don't vote for them. They could care less about your whining. They care about your vote.
Nice!
amen
Amen
The sad truth is that the police are protecting the 1% in this thing exclusively. If you want to balance the movement out, then tell the cops to let the marchers actually march where the bank frauds were taking place, instead of forcing them to march everywhere else!
Who wants to shut down a subway? They would much rather shut down the stock market, but where do you think the police are? In front of the stock market pepper spraying 84 year old ladies!
http://stopblackfriday.com
Well the marchers could march without intentionally blocking traffic and pedestrians. Is it same to walk down the middle of the street and expect the cops to stop traffic for you? Or does it make more sense that the cop is going to tell you to get on the sidewalk?
Umm...the point of a protest is to get in ppl's way.
Exactly. And that is a very petty and unconvincing point.
The point of other protests is to demonstrate a point, a way forward, or expose a wrong. The point of this action was to get in people's way. I couldn't have said it better myself.
There is a huge portion of the 99% who don't believe in intentionally getting in people's way. So by doing so you lose their support. And it is support ows should be trying to win. OWS power in numbers, attract people don't repel them, be inclusive not divisive.
Well, there are other ppl in OWS that believe that getting in people's way, economically and politically, is absolutely necessary. Now, the onus of the contact is not necessarily on us. This conflict is not something that we LOOK FOR, but it is INEVITABLE, so why deny it, like you want to?
Because to affect real change ows needs popular support. Thursday was an intentional disruption instigated by ows. The only legitimate action that day was the rally and march across the bridge which others - NOT ows - organized and obtained the proper permits for. OWS piggybacked onto that and now wants to take credit for it. But the actions truly orchestrated by ows were intentionally disruptive provocations with little to redeem them. The march across the bridge was a well orchestrated UNION action properly executed. OWS people were PARTICIPANTS.
The police are only doing what they are paid by the taxpayers to do.
No one has forced them to march anywhere. The protesters are marching exactly where they choose, each of his/her own volition.
Screaming Head, the NYPD are working to keep the protesters safe as well as the non-protesters. They are not protecting the 1%. They are protecting everyone. With rants on forums like this about Molotov cocktails and other posts "joking" (?) about smashing windows and "shutting the city down," what do you expect?
Yeah and the cops are "joking" by groping cheap feels on women as they pepper spray old ladies and priests.
[Removed]
I am the 99% and thank you Occupy for representing me and my family. We work hard and are very lucky to do so but we've just been very fortunate. Luckily our jobs have not been outsourced. Yet. Keep going strong. I will be out occupying today at 5pm at Occupy Palm Beach FL!!!!!
So 1% of us can do all the things you mentioned above at our expense and were just supposed to keep our mouths shut and not make them uncomfortable in the least? They started this mess if they dont want take responsbility for their part then making things a little messy is the least of their problems....activley openly acknowledging the issues they have created would have a tremendous effect on the protesters..waiting for us to go away and calling us names wont cut it
Davia isn't name calling. Go back and re-read.
They don't need to do that, winter will do it for them.
how about the 4.4 million people who lost their job because of the corporation malpractices?
Not everyone that is unemployed lost their job because of corporate malpractice.
Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Luuv. Luv. Luv. Luv. Luv.
I wouldn't have such a problem with all this if it looked like they had a plan. What happens if they get their way? What's the plan? Who would know since there are so many different demands/wants/theories? How are they going to take care of the 99% if they wreck our present system? WHAT IS THEIR CONCRETE, PLANNED OUT, THOUGHT THROUGH PLAN!!!!!!
This brings to my mind two previous times when people felt that their common interests were not being considered by the government in Power at the time.
When America was colonized by the British, and when segregation was the law of the land down south. At both times Americans were denied their rights, by a government that did not represent their interests. "Taxation without representation is tyranny" someone said. And it applied then...in both situations. Does that also apply now? When lobbyists come bearing campaign contributions, who is the politician that recieves them more likely to listen to... the constituents that he supposedly represents? or the guy that pays him? Some will say " That's just the way things are, you need to accept it. " here were two different responses to this situation. In Colonial America, there was armed rebellion, In The south...Peaceful non-violent protest.
Some say that this is inconveniencing people, Business owners see people using their restrooms without any kind of compensation... etc.
Well, as I see it history shows us.. 2 different ways that have successfully led to change, one was armed war, the other was peaceful occupation of public streets. Many complain that they are getting to work late, is that really a complaint? There is a connection between the Armed rebellion of the 18th century, and the peaceful protests of the 1960's, without the first, the last would not have been an option. Those of us that understand this say with full sincerity..." This is what democracy looks like." it is what the framers of our constitution intended when they wrote the First Amendment of our Constitution. Does this affect people that would otherwise have had an uneventful day? of course it does. But unfortunately, It's preferable for those people to get to work a Little late, than to have some anarchist burn down their house. And the end result desired benefits the 99 %.
The only people that may ultimately be damaged by this are the 1 %... everyone else may be impacted negatively, temporarily. But think about it. What affects a store owner in a worse fashion...people using his restrooms without buying something? Or ..the interest on his line of credit? If allowing a protester to use his bathroom without paying for a bagel, leads to actual change to the way bankers and brokers do business...is that not a small price worth paying? Many say " what if he does not wish to pay that price at this time?" Well... I leave it to you which option he might prefer... broken windows and burnt business when angry mobs decide that peaceful protest is not the answer....or.... " hey there, mind if I use your restroom??"
The problem with your argument is it assumes that everyone feels the same way you do.
You really have no clue how our economy works and the long term effects that this movement can have on small businesses... A lot of these businesses depend on a set amount of sales each month for them to just break even... Having occupiers in or around their buildings will detour customers and this means a loss of business. Now these small businesses make up this 99% that you seem to want to classify everyone under so you are truly hurting their lively hood and forcing them to be jobless and their employees to be jobless as well. But I guess that fits your plan right? Every one in the 99% will be jobless so then the 1% can not get their money and then they will be jobless too and now you have an equal playing field but a jobless society. Remember from science class for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction and in this case this reaction is detrimental to our economy and our society.
The 1% already have their money and will NOT be hurt when the economy tanks. That's because all of our money has been funneling up to the rich (and those members of govt. who cater to them) and not getting recycled back down to us. Anyone looking to gut our economy, whether it's the GOP or certain sub-groups of Occupy with their own agendas, is either ignorant of this fact or in collusion with it. WE get hurt and THEY profit.
You cannot make an omelet without breaking a few eggs. Sometimes political activity causes economic disruption. The fact that there is economic disruption does not mean the political activity needs to be abandoned. And "The good of those businesses" cannot be the basis used for the evaluation of tactics. Agree with the movement or not. Those that belong want change, and are tired of nothing happening. It is Not that the pain suffered by those businesses is a light or trivial matter, but... the message that 1 % of the country has stacked the deck against the other 99 % and getting it out... and trying to get something to be done..... in a non-violent peaceful manner, may require some economic disruption.
Well, just don't break my eggs. I've worked my entire life to have those eggs and be where I am now, and I don't want or need you to come break my eggs.
I am not saying there is not corruption in our economy but the OWS is like the mouthy kid that comes and kicks the kid on the ground who just got pounded by the big bully...they are already hurting enough so why hurt them even more... especially when you are not representing what the majority of the population is wanting.
what is your solution? PS. 55 to 65 % of people polled, depending on the poll, agree with the occupiers on wall street, and support their tactics. Local businesses may not. but... that is part of the complaint, There is More to our country than Business. This country cannot be of Business, by business ...for business.
the poll i saw said 55 to 65% of people who were polled recently did not agree with the occupiers and only 28% did... Our government should not be a business but our country should encourage business because business is what gives you and me a job...
by the way my solution... Lower the business tax (which is the highest in the world) to encourage businesses to come back to the United States... Lobbying should either be heavily regulated or banned altogether... Terms in the house and senate should be limited to two consecutive terms in a row... Get rid of capital gains tax, income tax, and the death tax and have a flat tax on all purchased items except necessities like gas and food. Having a flat tax will also help do away with the IRS and save government money... Also big government should take a step back on spending and put more power into the hands of the states.
I agree with you... we should encourage business, but.. the Ultimate arbiter of how free speech is expressed, cannot be decided by what is good for business. Sometimes the way of getting attention to your message is by disrupting business as usual. Especially when your main complaint is.." Business as usual does not work for me anymore."
Your argument though is with the 1% not the little guy that is supposedly with you so by hurting him it is like saying to your friend you know what I am so mad at that big bully I am going to take it out on you and then you precede to punch your friend in the face
Lol. That's good! Nice.
How many people were in the poll?
You are an ignoramus. The business of this country is the only thing that is important.
Davia, Did you ever write to Freddie Mac? Did you ever write to the CEO of Goldman Sachs? Did you ever write to Pelossi who seems to be upset now that people are asking her how her position allows her the ability to purchase stocks based on information not available to the public? Do you accept that it's just a "gap" in the legislation? Did you write to Newt about his ability to receive 1.6 million dollars from Freddie Mac for being a Strategic Adviser? Sounds a lot better than being a Lobbyist or Influence Peddler doesn't it? Pelossi buying into the Visa IPO and then blocking legislative bills that may hurt Visa isn't enough to write to her and yet a movement that calls itself the representatives of the 99% upset you. Your government leaders call themselves the leaders of the 100% and maybe it's time that title upset you a little more.
Did you try writing to your representatives before you jumped into this movement? Maybe if they had received a flood of calls, letters, and emails from you and all the OWS supporters they would pass legislation that the 99% would want?
Slowly remove your head out of the sand. My letter to a representative would not get one piece of legislation enacted if it rubbed Goldman Sachs the wrong way. Now, if I could get every incumbent removed from office on Election Day that may make them scramble to do the job they were elected to do. Italy's new government will be interesting because politicians were told they would not be part of the new form of government.
your letter alone would not do anything because you alone are not the majority but you and your protesters should have tried writing congress as a group first because then if you were the majority like you claim to be your ideas would be passed or your representative wouldn't be re-elected
I have to agree with you on one issue. My ideas are not strong enough to get every incumbent voted out of office. The strength of this movement has not tapped into the true power of the vote. I would love to see incumbents driven out of office in large numbers. For the most part, 2011 was a politician's dream. 2012 is a true Election year and I believe that this movement has the potential to bring democracy back into government.
That was AWESOME!!! Well said!
Amen
[Removed]
[Removed]
It is rather interesting that opinions held by millions of average Americans and formally endorsed by tens of thousands of average Americans are banned from this forum. I know the moderators of this forum do not accurately represent my views regarding the abuses of high finance.
@OP. Surprisingly or not, the 1% doesn't represent you either and partakes in even more reprehensive behaviors in your name.
this person clearly has no idea what the movement is about and should spend more time participating in there local GA instead of attempting to divide the people of this country and this planet. work with it or work against it, this is happening and if you fight it you will only make it a longer and more painful process for everyone. this movement has arisen from a need for the population of this planet to at least be "able" to attain happiness, to survive even. the global system we participate in now is responsible for atrocities that far outweigh any of the inconveniences put forth in this article. see the bigger picture, look beyond your own nose, beyond your own neighborhood to see the GLOBAL community of which YOU are a part whether you like it or not.
Obviously you are a business owner in the vicinity. I sympathize with you, yet please do not attempt to insult our intelligence by presenting yourself as the victim here. You're obviously doing a lot better than the average person, so you'll excuse me while I laugh in my hat at your minor grievances.
Where else do you expect space to be occupied? You profit from them profiting from us, and then you have the temerity to present yourself as the victim.
You'll excuse me if I not shed a tear for you and instead support those willing to put it on the line. I'd rather be one of them than a critical assnut in front of the TV and Mac pontificating on the right and wrong of matters of too greater import for the peasant mind.
So... You'd fight for the 99%, as long as its the part of the 99% that agrees with you and doesn't make more money than you. May want to re-check your motto. And your premises. If your argument depends on a lot of assumptions in order to build your case, then it wasn't a strong argument to begin with.
You have many valid points. But one thing you didn't address is this:
Are you happy with the system the way it is? And if not, what are you doing to fix it? Put some of that energy into the right places rather than criticizing what the other protesters are doing and the 99% may get to where they want to go faster :)
After all, Occupy Iraq and Afghanistan have cost us taxpayers $1.5 trillion. That's a little more than your lunch money. I don't see that statistic anywhere in your thesis.
[Removed]
Petitions are toilet paper, easily made, easily dismissed, easily discarded. Name one movement that accomplished as much as this one has in 2 months? Even MLK couldn't make that claim, he was at it for YEARS. Consider that.
[Removed]
No, it's called I was researching, you should try it sometime. You must know your enemy to defeat your enemy. I, unlike some, don't just post out of my posterior expecting to be at someone's beck and call. As to your comment about real solutions, well, why don't YOU delve into the corruption of this country and just how entrenched it is and see how long it takes you to even begin to understand it. :)
[Removed]
lol, I wasn't researching for you. I'm a facilitator at my local occupy and I was asked to bring some information along with me. A truely meaningful accomplishment huh? How about, "changed the conversation of the country." That's been stated a lot in the "beloved" main stream media. Do believe it took a while for other movements to make that claim ;)
[Removed]
LOL, yeah, text does that, I'm also tired as heck so I apologize for that. Awareness and having people actually talking are completely different things as well. You can be aware of a thing and never discuss it. I will agree that it is an offshoot however, I don't think that's ever been contended, and those that do need to do more research (especially in the first few days of the movement), the difference here is that those other movements were short lived, this, I don't believe will be. As some have already started to say (and our own occupy group addressed weeks ago), being out in the open is great, it brings those that are curious, but it's not necessary. We may be quiet, we may not do things for a month, but we will be working together, and that's the important thing. OH, and about the awareness thing, you wouldn't believe how many people don't know anything about congressional investment practices, real estate collapse or even about MF Global and why it's imporant. So, awareness is "oh, I didn't know that" and go about your merry way...changing the conversation is, "Wow, did you see that MF Global is going bankrupt, do you know what that's going to do?" "Oh shit, there goes the planet" ~pardon the swear word.
and I feel like disliking that post because it's showing how tired I am ;p
[Removed]
Perhaps, but people are talking aren't they? Just look at how much time your devoting to it. :)
[Removed]
Well, now we know :) Enjoy your game.
"...STOP allowing the unnecessary needs that you created to become such a burden on the people you claim to represent!" Coincidentally, this is what can be derived as the general concept of the OWS movement itself.
Protests against the basic archetype of the government template are unlikely to take place without invasive actions in any nation. It would be a form of utopia if such were possible; to protest without any interruption of societal livelihood and accomplish attention in representation which demands new social dialogue on all layers of the society.
So far in American history, not one of the major societal shifts was accomplished without interruption and inconvenience.
The focus of this movement is a revolution; it matters little what else is stated in regards to that element. Are they, "your", representative? No. They are no single person, nor collective's, representative as the protesters were not elected as such by anyone.
The 99% is a phrase, which ultimately, doesn't define much beyond monetary class level. It is well believable that the entire range of classes that are within the 99% are not going to agree in unified fronts.
Some of the comments have discussed drawing lines in the sand; yes, that's generally what a revolution is. If this really is a revolution of any caliber, then it exactly draws lines in the sand; it exactly takes a fighting stance - physically violent or non-violent are simply variations of fighting.
Just from reading the main page updates which cheer the shutting down of locations, it should be quite clear that this is indeed a fight and that the movement wishes to cause disruption in the general societal model in protest of the economic variation in place.
People will lose money; people that haven't any connection to 1% or the like. Personally, I hope more people become mad about that fact. I hope they become mad, and I hope they do exactly what you did; step up and voice it. However, I hope they do even more, and I hope you do as well. If people are against the protests and live around the protests, then I hope they get out on the street and protest the protest.
This, regardless of what may be ideal, is a fight. Pick a side and start fighting. Please, apathy is killing America.
The government of a nation doesn't fear peaceful populations which cause no disruption, nor does a government fear apathetic populations. Governments fear civil unrest, social disruption, economic frustration, and citizen massing.
I'll be surprised if a revolution truly occurs. I'll be even more surprised if such were accomplished...conveniently.
Looks like you are a resident of Tel-Aviv, or a dual-citizen living temporarily in the U.S until the day your empire blasts off to become the only Super-power in the world. Israel will rule the world with the power of Lucifer, your Master and father. All peoples of the world will become your slaves (as they should be) at last. Right?
OWS people, check out who Lucifer is.
Clearly change in this country has to be forced and OWS is trying to figure out how to make that happen. I suppose your tactic would be to sit on your ass and do nothing, which is probably the same thing you do at "work" when you "earn" your money. Go get your Starbucks now.
Your post is a joke and for those who say this isn't like protesting the Vietnam War..Let's be clear, there is war going on and has been going on for about 40 years, It's been a War against the working class..
If you work for a living..and you're complaining about OWS, you're on the wrong side.
Cause and effect....Wall Street robbed the country blind in 2008 and everyone else, except Wall Street is paying for it...You're bitching at the wrong people.
You expect no demonstrations? No protests?..Come On .
You can demonstrate and protest without blocking others from going about their business. It is possible. But the intention on Thursday was primarily to obstruct, not to communicate.
It's a balance "me2" ..If you don't want to breed chaos..You don't cause chaos...
OWS is a symptom not the cause of the problem...OWS is just a start to resolve the imbalance we see in our everyday lives and the imbalances we have caused in nature..
Our planet will also try to right itself one way or the other..Be prepared for that...Everything reaching a balance.
I honestly have no idea what you are talking about. There is some cosmic balance that can only be restored by causing chaos? Or something?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taoism
Mob tactics.
Amen!!!
people like the one who wrote this post don't get it, but they will. When their company lays them off, and congress cuts their unemployment, and ss, and medicaid, and they can't afford gas, or shelter, or food, and the air and water is too toxic and they can't afford clean air or water.... then they will get it. and they will cry like babies "why didn't we do something?!"
How does any of what you just said relate to what was posted?
Velveeta does that a lot.
My life is going well. the 99% do care about you. We have a heart. We want this government, our government to make some radical changes. Greed is not good, it does not work, and money in politics from the corporations make it a government for big biz and not the people. the problem with people like the one who posted this, is that once it has an impact on them personaly, it is to late. we must act now. /my life and most of the 99% have graet lives. We just want it to get better not worse. Even worse we are still ok. So the big companies and congress say, well if we give up this, and give up that we are ok. Well I want my life and my childrens life to be better.
A crooked Financial System nearly brought your country to a complete collapse,Our dollar is being systematically destroyed by the Federal Reserve. The Federal Reserve made $16.1 trillion in secret loans to their friends during the last financial crisis. An item that cost $20.00 in 1970 will cost you $116.78 today. An item that cost $20.00 in 1913 will cost you $457.67 today.
AND YOU WOULD LIKE TO COMPLAIN ABOUT PEOPLE USING TOO MUCH WATER AND USING PUBLIC RESTROOMS WHILE PROTESTING THIS ? !!!!!
I'm not taking part in the protest either but I think the least you could do is recognize theres a legitimate issue to contemplate here. Thousands of people don't take to the streets for no reason.
It's not their issue that's the problem, it's the destructive way in which they are protesting, and how it is affecting those for whom they claim to fight.
Thank you. What do they not see about what they are doing. If they are mad at the Federal Reserve, take it up with them. Instead they choose to penalize the people of NYC.
This is a lie:
"In fact, protesters/supporters have responded to such complaints on this forum with answers like, "it's a small price to pay for promoting awareness" or "this movement is so much bigger than a little water here and there."
I've never seen any such posts here and I am here every day.
Please provide links or proof of what you say.
In addition - New York shells out millions all the time for political conventions, policing around the UN, visits to the city by various dignitaries etc etc
And such things not only cost the city money but cause inconvenience to commuters and residents.
It is part of living and working in New York. Surprising that actual New Yorkers are this put out over what is fairly predictable and normal in NYC.
Those comments aren't that hard to find. Here's one from this thread:
[-] clarissa35f -4 points 8 hours ago You cannot make an omelet without breaking a few eggs. Sometimes political activity causes economic disruption. The fact that there is economic disruption does not mean the political activity needs to be abandoned. And "The good of those businesses" cannot be the basis used for the evaluation of tactics...."
Ouch! Go get em Davia!
wow, kinda makes the Anti-Greedy seem awful Greedy.
when it all comes full circle and they have been protesting against themselves?
Just as a child does not look upon the man in the van with the lollypop as evil, you do not realize that you are part of the 99% being raped by the Global Pedophiles who pray on the ordinary man. While we work hard to provide our families with a simple life, they are the masters of money. We go to little league baseball while they manipulate money. We choose to live simple therefore we cannot compete economically with people who spend every waking hour manipulating, lobbying and finding loopholes in laws they have not yet been able to change. They are the masters of money and they are hoarding it, investing it abroad, and using it to control your government. It shouldn't be a crime to choose an ordinary life, but it has become impossible to live in one. We pay the taxes, we fight their wars, We perform the work and produce the goods. We teach in their schools,we protect them with our police force and bail them out when they fail. There is more money in circulation than ever before yet the ordinary man is left with nothing but the inflation and debt. Where is the money? In the hands of the money masters my friend.You wouldn't have to use your lunch money to take a taxi if trickle down economics worked. Money has to be ripped from the hands of the top through legislation. Hoover tried letting the market correct itself during the depression. Unfortunately while the people were on the docks fishing to feed their families the rich were passing by in their yachts. We are in the middle of a capitalist disaster and you are part of the 99%. You just don't realize it yet because of your ignorance Wake up.
This occupy thing working only for "itself occupy movement". It have no intentions to advance technologically and socially.
They want just be left alone to camp and make more people staying same place and then after "enough number passes", corporations can't provide anymore mcdonalds foor or etc food for them, they all split everywhere and plundering and attacking people for food "just like in liberia". They eating each other in liberia, same thing will happen when only focus is to get more people camp and buy food from corporations.
They have no intentions to set up real farming systems because they don't want to stand up against laws even if their children dies in this camp.
I don't know how this occupy thing makes sense, because it is not about using science to do things better. This occupy thing is more like using numbers as an solution but they are not robots so they will suicide together when corporations go down.
Where in live video you have seen big farms or fruits or wtf??? I have only seen apples in boxes, no farms, no fruit trees, only things in boxes what is collected from "markets", because corporations are not giving freely those fruits and food.
Subways: Nobody is shutting down the subways (except the police). This is the action:
LUNCH: Occupy The Subways - 3:00 p.m.
We will start by Occupying Our Blocks! Then throughout the five boroughs, we will gather at 16 central subway hubs and take our own stories to the trains, using the "People's Mic".
Cost: It's to spend hundreds of billions on illegal wars and building a police state but it's not OK for people to protest and conduct civil disobedience because of some police overtime?
99%: Do you understand what a statistic is? How about a metaphor?
If you were truly practicing civil disobedience you'd accept the law as you break it. What is going on in OWS is not civil disobedience.
99%? OWS is co-opting and claiming to speak for people who don't agree with them or at least not on everything. 99% of the countries population are not OWS. It just makes it sound bigger and gives OWS a bit of self righteousness by thinking they are fighting for all citizens.
For it to be consider an accurate statistic that can be used as data it should have a margin of error of less than 5% therefore 99% does not count as a statistical data... Now a metaphor is meant to represent another tangible thing now to claim that you represent the 99% is a very poor metaphor because it does not actually relate or represent the 99% of the population. You are just making fictional claims to help a movement that is unjust and directionless
Dissent is illegal in the US?
Try reading the Declaration of Independence.
The argument that is being made has nothing to do about some one not agreeing but instead the way in which they are not agreeing...
"a movement that is unjust"
Kind of hard to bullshit your way out of that.
it is unjust because people in your movement are infringing on others rights which is exactly what you are complaining about that is happening to you... you are guaranteed the right of speech but only until you begin to infringe on others rights... also you have people in your movement that are making claims against our government that represent anarchy which in my opinion is no different than terrorism... Until this movement begins respecting the rights of others and can have some organization about what you are protesting for, your movement will only allow for others with their own personal agenda to infiltrate and potentially push this government into a reform that does not represent the initial cause of the movement...
"Making claims against the government" is a right guaranteed by the first amendment.
Zeig hiel!
Okay yes but please dont take one phrase out of context and think you have an argument...come on
All you do is complain about dissent and free speech, while practicing it here. That makes you a hypocrite.
You don't actually read the post do you
Study your history and see what happens to societies with socialist ideology
You spent a lot of literal capital...Going nowhere.
when oil traders,( in collusion with politicians, CIA, oil companies, foreign dictators, warlords) jack-up the price of oil way beyond where it should be if it were based on simple supply and demand, and because of this prevent everyone from familes trying to get to work to schoolbuses to ambulances, etc... from buying other important things like food and shelter- that's what's going on, and you're worried about a handful of protestors standing near a subway entrance? open your eyes Davia
I am the 99 percent and this [orginial] poster does not represent me...March onwards OWS!!!! I am a professional. I go to work everday and I work hard. I work for the "man" and I SUPPORT OWS !!!! What Bloomberg did the other day WON me over to the side of OWS; recall this Mayor's Office. This protest will NOT Die! OWS is here to stay!
The original poster is not trying to represent you. He is representing himself unlike the movement which it represents him!
You're right. The disgruntled OWS protestors should simply email their gripes to their so-called Congressional Representatives.
I'm sure they will jump on your complaints . . . yeah, right, and I'm sure Santa Clause will bring me a new yacht this year.
The point is, our representatives no longer "represent" us. They represent the people who feed their money-driven reelection campaigns.
Then vote them out. It must not be too bad, from their perspective. We keep reelecting them
then do some research on someone who does represent you more accurately, disseminate information about them, which should be easier to do now more than ever considering the amount of attention you all have right now, and vote them out. get rid of incumbents if they really don't take into consideration the majorities concerns.
The big boys control the media, and can spend you into the ground controlling their message and drowning out your message.
Did you ever hear that you can't win an argument with someone who buys ink by the barrel??
The OWS movement can't use megaphones, have scant resources to mount a television, radio, or print advertising campaign.
All they can do, as we did during Viet Nam, is take to the streets and hope that the noise will get the attention of Congressional representatives who are beholden to corporate financial donors.
i'm really sorry tony, but how much time, energy, resources, and money have people in this "movement" already spent on getting arrested and just being annoying to other people whom the declare to be in support of. I'm ALL FOR dissent, and change, and fighting the "establishment", but making life more miserable for working people is like cutting one's nose to spite one's face. All of that should and can be harnessed into getting information about better local politicians to affect change as well. Yes protesting raises awareness, but once awareness is raised then concrete action has to be taken. And by concrete action, I mean things that will elicit some of the changes that people are collectively seeking, rather than wallowing in self congratulatory anger or malaise.
and how many people died in viet nam while people here were protesting?
Understand this,Printing money,backed by no goods and services,is counterfeiting,Fake Money, Fake Debt..Bailing out and giving bonuses to the very ones who bankrupted the world economy..High Treason is the Charge. Sticking U.S. taxpayers with the fake money,fake debt, is extortion..
[Removed]
Is this first hand knowledge? How many people do you personally know who work 'down town,' bill?
Well said, I am recent college graduate, and I am in large amounts of debt. However I have taken responsibility for this debt, put my feet to the ground and got myself an education which led to me also getting a job. I didn't come from a rich family and worked hard for everything I've accomplished. I am not looking for a handout and I'm embracing what America was founded on- an entrepreneurial spirit and never-say-never attitude. My parents are the ones who could really use the help yet they cannot afford to not work and go protest. Instead of literally wasting your time just sitting and almost whining, why not put your time to good use and volunteer somewhere, offer your help to those you claim to be representing, or at least put the effort in to keep your surroundings clean. These movements are an embarrassment to my generation, a generation with no true war, no true civil rights movement, and now an apparently growing sense of entitlement. If you want true change, why not go to school and get an education, take the necessary steps to join local civic movements, and become apart of government and try to achieve true change for the "people". This demonstration shows a laziness and an entitlement of my generation who always look for the easy way out without putting in the work. I am apart of the true 99%, but I'm bucking up, learning as much as I can, and going to work, because in America you can't choose what percentage your born into, but you can certainly choose what percentage you aspire to obtain.
"no true war" ...kid you have no idea what is going on....
The OWS movement is embracing the "never say never" spirit of America as well. They are not giving in to complacency anymore. However, I agree with what you are calling people to do (volunteer, participate in local gov't, etc.), and I think that this call of yours is one of the reasons why the people are protesting. To get everyone to think about these things more. Yes, many of the people joining the movement are inciting dirtiness, and the image of laziness. Its unfortunate that the way this protest is taking place has alienated so many of their supposed 99%.
Taxpayer funded? - Who are the taxpayers?. OWS are not taxpayers? The parks are not for the people with a tax receipt? Is that what community area means? Guess you would keep children and elder out? Racial and class separation?
We don't want you to take us seriously we just want you to look in the mirror and re assess your situation and the situation of your country.
And be aware, if so many people are on the streets, then there are 100 times more that want to be with them, but just can't because of personal reasons.
This is why we should be thankful to the people that have the courage to stand up and speak out.
There is no turning back.
What we want to achieve - well having you write in this forum and join the discussion for example. This is a first step.
Umm...you are already keeping people from using the park,or were at any rate.
The median productivity of an American worker is $97k/year. #1 in the world. But the median total compensation is only $44k/year. Worrying about taxes in a situation like that is like rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. That profit taking is costing you more than four times as much as your total taxes do.
Your to stupid for anyone to want to represent you. Thats all it seems you care about is getting to work on the subway. So as long as your world is all chocolate covered and candy coated everyone else should keep their mouths shut, right!
Way to be too stupid to spell. If it's people like you that represent OWS, I don't think anyone's going to take this 'movement' seriously, long-term.
This attitude is what will marginalize this movement and keep it from affecting real change. I doubt you will ever see your own part in the undoing though.
Way to insult someone you don't know.
Fascinating. Easy for you to say anonymously, isn't it? While OWS people put their freedom on the line, you sit back in the shadows and carp. For all we know, you're really Karl Rove.
They are going to loose a lot more of the 99% tomorrow when they occupy the subways and make what is already a shitty experience even shittier for people going to work and school.
you may be right. I don't know of any movement that hasn't made mistakes. This may need further consideration. It's too bad you won't join us and help us make our decisions.
Cop out. Plenty of people voicing concern and opposition to this. Just don't seem to be getting through. Same thing with the godawful flash mob idea.
You can attend the General Assemblies and voice your concerns. If enough people are there that agree with you, or change their position based on your arguments, you will get what's called a consensus.
If you truly believe you are right, there is no reason not to share your concerns with the protesters.
...which is what Davia has done here, but your answer to someone explaining why they won't join you, is that they should join you.
"...which is what Davia has done here"
Apparently you don't see a distinction between anonymously posting things on the internet and actually voicing your concerns in person.
"but your answer to someone explaining why they won't join you, is that they should join you."
They don't need to join the movement's current views. They simply have to participate to voice dissent. If you or Davia feel that your views are not worth saying in person, then don't. Many of the occupiers are making sacrifices to actually attend the GA because they feel their voices are worth hearing. If you want a movement that gives all their time to listening to every anonymous poster on the internet, then start your own movement. But if you actually feel your views are sensible enough and worth saying in person, then participate. Nobody has denied you the right to have a voice in this movement but yourselves.
Too many people who have been sharing their concerns with the protesters, in person or online, have been marginalized, ridiculed or ignored. That's part of why a lot of good folks who generally support movements for positive change have been turned off.
What's really absurd to me is that many critics of OWS only acknowledge their own god-given right criticize the protesters..
But whenever protesters criticize back, they don't acknowledge the rights of others to criticize.
Nobody has a right to speak and not be criticized.
What's even more absurd is people posting anonymously on the internet that the GA should be devoted more to their concerns than the people that have made sacrifices to actually attend.
I take it that you've never been part of a group that made mistakes as it grew. Lucky you.
I've also been part of a group that failed despite the best of intentions. Lucky on both counts, for the experience.
lucky for the experience, and having learned what from them besides cynicism? Your expertise in trolling I would attribute to other experiences you have yet to share...
First you insinuate that I lack experience and now you're name calling. I haven't done anything like this to you. The only thing I've done is disagree with you, pretty respectfully I might add.
As for learning what besides cynicism: I learned to recognize mistakes before they happen and how to take steps to avoid them.
I insinuated nothing. I asked you a question, to which you responded. And calling my comment a "cop out" is pretty far from a "respectful" disagreement in my book. And where was I "name calling"? Can you not concede that your comments smack of "trolling"? Especially the way you misinterpreted our offers of dialogue with Davia as attempts to recruit her. The same as we offer you. Your comments do not indicate any sympathy with our cause, and simply point out our shortcomings of which we are all painfully aware. Your arguments are reminiscent of those made by the Tories during the Revolution or those of other establismentarians in other nations, which I will not specify because of the reaction I expect it will engender if I am correct and your intention is more to distract from our purpose than to give us constructive criticism. Once again, I reiterate. This is an open movement, welcoming to all. You can sit on the sidelines and snipe, or you can become an active participant in the dialogue. What you should not do is obfuscate or intentionally misinterpret our message. That is unethical, and if you are willing to be unethical, then you deserve no notice or respect.
All right sorry about the cop out comment.
But it is a little exasperating. Here is Davia coming on the site engaging in a dialogue and you are saying la la la I can't listen to your message unless you deliver it in person to the GA.
My point is you SHOULD be listening to some of the more reasonable voices here who are providing CONSTRUCTIVE criticism. The definition of "troll" in this forum has evolved to mean anyone who dissents. There are the real bullshit trolls on here and I've called out many of them myself, not by calling them a name but by chopping down their ridiculous assertions. I've over and over countered those who spread bullshit about ows's tax status and the stupid picture of the guy crapping on the flag that people have put up here as though it had anything to do with ows.
What I am about is being realistic and keeping things within the realm of facts and the truth. I also believe this movement should build, not destroy, and it should set an example.
You know how the civil rights marchers were? They conducted themselves with intentional dignity so that their position was unassailable. They knew the world was watching and they knew the difference between a true hater vs someone who was just part of the system but could be swayed.
What ows is doing now is doing now is lumping both of those groups together, in addition to taking destructive rather than constructive actions. That will marginalize ows.
I certainly can see your point, but don't think you really understand what our invitation to Davia is all about. We are not saying we will not listen to Davia's message unless s/he delivers it to the GA; we are respectfully requesting that s/he deliver it so that we can discuss it with her rather than just have it on a website where it is more fodder for the "I told you so's" than an engine for modification. Most, if not all, of us are aware that our coalition is made up of "strange bedfellows"; some have made much of our far left fringe. But what we are is the real "Big Tent". We want your input. We need your involvement. It's that old "if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem". I guess the bottom line is that if all you're going to do is post here, and are not willing to come down and talk to us, we simply cannot have any confidence in your motivation or true purpose. As I said in my first response to Davia, it's easy to make comments from the comfort of anonymity. It's also easy to dismiss those who you don't have to face. We truly believe that we are you. We only ask that you come to meet us and test that belief.
I don't think actions like those taking place today make people like Davia feel like comingdown to a GA and sharing anything, no matter how gracious the invitation. On the contrary, it makes many people not want to be associated with the movement at all.
You know, there was a time not long ago that families were invited down. Who would bring kids to the type of events that are going down today? You can go ahead and plan a family picnic tomorrow and it won't matter, the reputational damage has been done.
Which is why I am promoting a total relocation to Anacostia Park in DC. But I think that you are overreacting to say that there is any reason for any single individual to fear attending a GA meeting. Whatever the direct actions are taking place, the GA is and, without the operations of agents provacateurs as moderate and deliberative as any legislative body. To extend the tension and violence of a direct action by implication to the operations of our deliberative assembly is as wrongheaded (please don't consider this an insult) as extending the risks of visiting an active battlefield to in Afghanistan to visiting Congress. In fact, the easiest way to ensure that no productive change will take place in the direction of the movement and its goals is if you promote the idea that you can't risk attending GA meetings if you have counterproposals to make. It's a coralary of that old maxim "the easiest way for evil to triumph is for good people to stand back and do nothing". To suggest that those with respectful disagreement absent themselves from the process because they will face unpleasant opposition is tantamount to saying that no one should run for office against those with whom they disagree because they will face unpleasant opposition. That is exactly the idea against which we are constituted.
A thought occurred to me. Sorry I didn't ask this earlier. I'm sending this to Davia personally as well:
Would you have made the same comments had you been around in the 1960's to the Civil Rights demonstrators who held "sit ins" at segregated lunch counters, and who marched with MLK? Would you have said this to Gandhi in India? Or is it that you are not as concerned with the issues raised by OWS and are simply using this as your means of attacking our cause through an objection to our methods? Again, please don't be insulted, but understand how easily your comments can be construed as that of an opponent.
OK we are finding our common ground here. I agree with you about the GA. I am a big fan of the GA. I don't think actions like today's represent anywhere near the best the GA has to offer, though. And I don't see what's going on today as being equivalent to lunch counter sit-ins. Maybe somebody would not eat lunch there if they had to sit next to a black person but the black person very intentionally behaved in a dignified manner, overly so even, and very intentionally did not prevent any other customers from having a meal there. It was VERY well thought out, the ONLY thing keeping someone from having a meal at the lunch counter was their own prejudice. And the sit-in participants took great pains to ensure there was NO other possible reason, not bad behavior, not intimidation, nothing. Simply walking up to a lunch counter as a human being and ordering a meal. To me, that is a brilliant action and the exact antithesis of today's circus which has lacks any semblance of subtlety and style.
And that pains me.
yes, we are reaching common ground, but note please that already my comment, as reasonable as you find it, has garnered me "minus points", meaning that those who are here in opposition to OWS are using their "vote" to discredit comments that you agree are reasonable. This is the hypocrisy against which OWS is fighting. As a veteran of the Civil Rights movement, I have to tell you that it was just as violent at times as OWS has been. Not at the lunch counters, perhaps, but out on the street when we faced police dogs and water cannons. You can't avoid the likelihood that someone will lose their cool when being attacked or called names by adversaries. Our cause today is far more nuanced, and far more susceptible to overreaction. And the way to limit this is for you and others who are in sympathy with our ends to join us and help us reinforce the means you and I agree are the best for the furtherance of our drive to restore electoral power to those who are entitled to it.
Oh I don't live in NYC. I have taken the subway there enough though to know what a mess this will be tomorrow.
The OWS people are there of their own free will, not at my request nor for my benefit. They have been asked many times by many different people to leave. Why should their insistence in staying make them immune to criticism?
No one is stopping you from criticizing. it is not your criticism, it is your syntax and the fact that you are doing so anonymously. You may even have some valid points. Your input is welcome, it's just your meanspiritedness that is not. Why don't you go down to a General Assembly meeting and make your views known? You are, after all, part of the 99% we claim to represent. It is essential for us to know what your concerns are and to address them. Just remember that we are just like you. We are frustrated with our powerlessness in the face of an all controlling oligarchy and their minions in the legislature. Help us and we shall help you.
Davia just did do that! You are being intentionally obtuse. Like you are not just as anonymous here.
When did Davia say he attended the GA??
I'm pretty sure he didn't. He only spread criticism anonymously on the internet. That is not how a consensus is reached.
Any time you or anyone else who is troubled by my anonymity here want to come to DC and meet me, I'll be happy to accommodate you. Of course, it will have to be at a police station, since I'm not setting myself up for abuse.
As for my being obtuse, I will concede only that my syntax may be a bit too complicated for your understanding, for which I apologize. I was suggesting that Davia bring her concerns to a General Assembly. I thought I made that clear.
There are problems with the GA process which go along with some of the main problems in the movement. Namely: marginalization of healthy skepticism. Several people I know personally who have been involved on the ground-level at Occupy sites have come with the most sincere of intentions and support and have walked away in frustration from it. So unfortunately it isn't as simple as "go to your local GA" to address concerns.
Nice arrogance
no more arrogant that saying "nice arrogance", pal. I'm ready to meet you face to face, at a police station to protect you. What's more arrogant than your simply sniping from the sidelines?
Damn we've been outed!
Wow Davia. Kick ass post! Occupiers: go home, and STFU.
I think Davia's point was a bit more nuanced than that. Unfortunately, many will read it the way you have and not give it another thought, and that is unfortunate. There is far more here than STFU and go home. This is CONSTRUCTIVE criticism.
As soon as they change the system to put people before profit...