Forum Post: Why you do not represent the real 99%
Posted 12 years ago on Dec. 23, 2011, 12:35 p.m. EST by Muppetmaster
(62)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
Why I do not support your movement
The entire population of the US agrees there are issues that need to be dealt with regarding the economy as well as a few other issues, but most of the people disagree with OWS and here is why. You are protesting capitalism, but the problems we face are with the governement, you even say it yourself, in so many ways, but you do not protest against the government. why? because you are a left wing organization and although you claim to not be supporters of the democrats or republicans I can point to so many posts that show 100% support for democrats and 0% support for republicans. Your partisanship is showing.
You believe that just because you are breathing you are owed food, medical, and housing without any cost to you personally, let the wealthy foot the bill. You believe that regardless of education you deserve a high paying job as well as a major part of any profits.
You believe that contracts are not binding and people are just too stupid to understand that if you take out a loan you should have to pay it back or the collateral is forfeited.
You believe the wealthy do not pay their "fair share" but cannot provide a definition of "fair share" and you do not believe that there should be a limit on those that do nothing but take more than their "fair share".
You do not respect any authority.
You do not believe in censorship yet this site is constantly censored. The reason I hear from the posters is that this is a private forum to discuss OWS and a way to build the community. My reply is that you are either for or against censorship and by the actions of the moderators you are for censorship. If you were to succeed in your quest to change the nation censorship will be allowed. period.
Many posters have a problem with the history of this country even to the point of belittling the founders of this nation. None of you are worthy enough to clean the horse crap off of their boots. They signed their names and assured their death if they failed, but OWS would never have the courage to sign any document.
Your method of assembly is childish and worthy of derision and mockery. You desire "majority rule", but what majority? only those that show up? I.E. the poorly thought out Egyptian trip.
You believe you can have a movement without leadership, many on here refer to Gandhi, MLK, FDR, even Jesus as being inspirational to the movement. they were leaders.
Anyone who disagrees with OWS on this forum is labeled a troll.
You claim to represent the 99%. that is a fallacy. Anyone who leans tot he right, Jewish, wealthy, watches Foxnews, a Tea Party member, a Ron Paul supporter, or anyone who does not walk goose step with your movement, is not welcome.
You are theives. You now support "occupying homes" that do not belong to you or the people you move in to the home. The foreclosed home belongs to the bank and therefore it belongs to the stock holders of the banks, people like me who expect a return on my investment.
You do not understand investing or the risks involved and the rewards for the risk.
You rail against corporate "greed" yet have no problem participating by doing business with the corporations.
You state that "corporations are not people", neither are unions and they operate as a 501(c) corporation, but you have no problem supporting unions and their use of block voting and PACs.
You say you are for free speech yet feel it necessary to shout down candidates (only republicans) at rally's and you find it amuzing to act so childish.
You refuse to be responsible for your own lives whether it is the past (I did not do that, someone made me do it, blah blah) Present (My name is Ketchup, no I will not give my real name, I lost my job and too good to do waht is available) or future (someone needs to take care of me).
You bitch and moan about the Koch Brothers while protesting wall Street. Koch industries in NOT publicly traded and therefore not part of Wall Street.
The constant use of profanity used to make an argument is neither contructive or useful. Is this how to sell your shindig? Mature people know how to make a point without use of such words.
Crying about the cost of college is not a problem brought on by Wall street or the banks. The university sets the tuition rate, the banks let you take out a deferred loan until you graduate. You made the choice to go to that school. You made the choice to take out the loan. In state tuition is cheaper than out of state, so what was the motivation for going out of state? Greed. Because you are looking for the biggest paycheck possible after graduation. The problem is no one is hiring women's studies graduates, or any other 'liberal arts" crap. We already have enough lawyers too. Get a degree in a good vocation.
years from now when you are flipping burgers because you burned so many bridges and this is the best you can do, who will you blame then?
Whose a good boy? Whose a good boy?
Does our wittle Muppetmaster want a treat? Jump, boy! Jump!!!
That's a good boy. Good, good boy.
who can argue with that? You have proven my point, child.
Alright, I've read throuth this, and I've read through some of the comments, and some similar comments elsewhere. And in much of this I have had a few thoughts on the matter. Mention is suggested here that the problem exists with the government, but not with the banking industry, or much of what goes on in business. Truth be told, I don't think the problem is exclusively the province of one party alone. What's more, given one of the biggest problems we have in government, and that is with political action committees and lobbying organizations, the problem isn't necessarily one sided. In many ways, Washington, Wall Street, and much of this aren't necessarily on opposite sides of much of what goes on.
Take a look at the hearings that went before Congress on the SSSCA some years back, which Senator Hollins presided over. The RIAA practically had their own pet senator running the show, and the other side of the debate wasn't even permitted to step in Congress and have their side on the proposed copyright bill even be presented to Congress before voting on this matter. It was up to an Intel rep, who wasn't happy with the harm in terms of sales his company could see should customers chose not to buy hardware with DRM pretty much built into it; to present any side other then the dog and pony show that was going on.
And Hollins blasted him with a "you're either with us, or with the crimminals" anyone with any view that wasn't in cahoots with the RIAA's desires obviously, and a "we're not here to legislate, we're here to give you time to create technology". The entire blasting from a self styled representative was a joke, and the irony that Intel's own rep to Congress should be the one looking like the consumer rights activist, because no one representing the customers were even permitted to speak, wasn't wasted on him. It was one of those "when am I supposed to? I'm really here in support of my own company, but...."
This is the problem we have. It isn't so much about Democrat vs Republican, lib vs conservative... It's that the whole lot of them don't even bother to represent "we the people" anymore. They represent the lobbyists, they represent the PACs, they represent those who can contribute the most to their re-election campaigns, but they couldn't be bothered to represent the voters, who actually elect them to office. One shouldn't have to cough up a $12 million campaign contribution to be considered a constituent from some rather aloof career politician who seems so out of touch with people at large; that they can mouth off (and worse yet if they really believe some of the things they say) when one gets comments for instance on a minimum wage debate, suggesting most people make $100,000 a year, so it isn't necessary. What kind of argument is that? There are arguably economic arguments one could make, but that? What planet was that politican from? I might like to go there, sounds a lot nicer then Earth :o Statements like that, make them sound totally removed from the world at large; and if they don't actually know the conditions in their constituencies, how can they honestly represent the people at large?
Then we get the, well "capitalism" meaning big business doesn't do anything of a problem. Is this to include Berny Madoff and Jon Corzine for the time he was at MF Financial? Or how about the fact that Bank of America after getting bailed out, and following 2 major blunders (their acquisition of Countrywide Financial and their acquisition of Merill Lynch) chose to move their Merill derivatives over to the retail banking side of their bank holding company (among the FDIC insured funds, and against the grievances of the FDIC) after Moody's downgraded the Merill derivatives? For those unaware, Merill represents the INVESTMENT banking activities which BofA had acquired; and it, with the blessing of the Federal Reserve and against the complaints of the FDIC which were then moved over to the retail banking side, that the FDIC would be obliged to insure. Should depositer insurance really back investment banking activities? I mean if they want to gamble their own money in the markets that's one thing, but when they gamble money insured by the tax payers....
And then the mention of tax burden is mentioned as if questioning it is a bad thing? It was not some radical idea (by our standards, it was in it's day) to suggest "no taxation without representation", as our own fore fathers suggested. And this gets right to it also; who's paying the bulk of the tax burden vs. who's getting represented. There is nothing "communist" or "socialist" about wanting a tax code which is reasonable for all members of society. There is nothing unreasonable about suggesting that each person should pay their fair share, rather then some (and not others) should be required to bear the brunt of the burden, and make most of the sacrifices, while others (who can afford "good representation") are not asked to shoulder it along side the rest of us... Those who decide the tax codes should be just and impartial; they should not be playing favorites among the different segments of society....
The final matter is that leaders, representatives, and the like (which includes law makers who set the rules of the game that all must play by) should be IMPARTIAL and even handed wrt all segments of society. The "game" shouldn't be rigged to benefit some, at the expense of others. There are times that a company lobbyist, with the big bucks to buy a rep an expensive dinner and contribute handsomely to their re-election campaign might want something that would benefit their company, perhaps to the detriment of others. A true representative would not be playing favorites. Looking at the matter, there would be times to say "I see why you want this, and I see how it would be of benefit to you. But it's going to totally kill this, that, and the other segment of society. The law is not supposed to play favorites, and it's supposed to be just and impartial for all. I'm going to have to decline your propsotion, because I'm not just your representative, I'm theirs as well. I'm sorry, but on my watch, this isn't happening."
It can be a companies role to be self serving and put their profits first; but it should not be the role of a rep to be in their back pocket, and represent them to the EXCLUSION of all others. What was that stuff we heard in school about social contract, competing interests, and not considering the interests of one party only? Corruption certainly would not be suggestive of that.
@ muppetmaster
Quote: "Why I do not support your movement"
Who the fuck asked you?
I htought this was an open forum for thoughts and ideas, you did not askm but who really cares about you?
You received that response because of your narrow-minded opinion of the issues.
Why do you say they are narrow minded? What is to say that it is no you who cannot see the truth regarding OWS?
@muppetmaster...Why such a clam demeanor now? After your previous lie filled rant.
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I couldn't help but notice that you didn't actually read the posts on this forum or actually use it for that matter. All I see are generalizations and assumptions which seem to spawn from the censored media. It's one thing to point out flaws you see, and another to purposely be impudent in order to see angry reactions. If you are attempting to say you spoke with actual OWS people here on the forum, than I suspect you spoke with trolls. I am very open to any views whether they are labeled OWS or anti-OWS, the problem is that most anti-OWS views use your methods in order to troll and anger the forum population rather than effectively establish your side of the debate.
Then there are more trolls than OWS on this forum. I have spent months conversing and trying to exchange ideas and have been labeled a troll. Sorry, through experience on this forum, and having a close personal friend involved with OWS in New York, I stand by all my statements,
I do not suspect I can change your views, but I can say through experience with the forums that all of it is just spam and trolls. I have met few who are actually willing to debate coherently. It would be nice if I could speak to a representative of OWS but the whole point is that one person of OWS cannot speak for the whole movement, they can only express their individual opinion. I believe there should be a change as I have been waiting for this for years. It brings me sorrow to find that these forums have gone to garbage. With people prancing around under usernames such as 'iownows' or 'owsj' saying they are OWS but then spread mindless propaganda I really can't trust anyone's views or opinions unless I get a 'one on one' discussion with them. I could debate with you why we need to protest, but I couldn't possibly debate what are OWS's views which makes this a tricky situation to approach.
I have no problem with protesting, it is the American way. I have a problem with OWS because what they stand for or the lack of any coherant message, coupled with the obvious Marxist views makes them bad thing for America. "Leader less" movement tells me that they are afraid to put their names out there in support and because of that you have to wonder how deep their conviction is. Doing things anonomously is easy, sign you real name on a document, not so much so.
This guy obviously missed the Wold wide nature of the movement.
Such a narrow World view, indicative of watching too much FLAKESnews.
You help prove at least 1 of my points.
Which one is that?
You claim to represent the 99%. that is a fallacy. Anyone who leans tot he right, Jewish, wealthy, watches Foxnews, a Tea Party member, a Ron Paul supporter, or anyone who does not walk goose step with your movement, is not welcome.
What is your hangup on the Jewish?
How come you can't answer the simplest of questions?
I just try and inform the Mr. P. people.
Teabaggers raised my taxes.
Flakesnews is a foreign owned purveyor of falsehoods, misrepresentations and outright lies.
I have no hang up with the Jewish community, but so many of those that post on here do. Explain how your taxes were raised by the TEA party, and I do not watch Fox News, or any other network news for that matter, but it is a guess that MSNBC is your source of propganda. BTW, my response was a copy of one of my points; the point that you proved.
Teabaggers bypassed my states constitution, and raised my taxes, to off set yet another break to corporations.
This is what the (R)s do............lie about everything. Teabaggers, conservatives, libertarians or straight up republicans.
Once you go (R), they force you to take the liars oath.
Kind of like Tef Kennedy not killing Mary Jo Kaopechne. Like Nancy Pelosi writing and approcing legislation that benefits her family. Like Eric Holder and Dast and Furious. Like Janet Reno and Waco, like Bill Clinton and Monica Lewinsky.............
Not a thing like that.
Teabaggers raised my taxes!
You understand that the president has to sign the bill, so what does that mean? Think..think..think
Think-think-think.
Yes you should.
Our Koch sponsored teabagger governor signed it in defiance of the state constitution.
Our nastily republican state supreme court upheald it
Republicans will step on ANY constitution, to serve their kings. You see republicans always lie---------always.
My taxes were raised to offset yet another tax CUT to corporations.
In a state that had already among the lowest rates of corporate taxes.
They always lie.
I suppose you missed the insider trading flap that nancy pelosi and many other prominent democrats were implicated in, but of course it is legal for them ( that makes it good, right?). As far as taxes go, consider it you paying your "fair share".
Think-think-think.
Still a difficult concept for you.
Teabaggers raised my taxes
~~~~~~`insider trading.What's the correlation?
You claim that the right is causing you all your harm by raising your taxes, it IS a 2 way street.
Ummm,
So which muppet do you consider yourself a master of?
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@Muppetmaster .........It is the duty of every citizen to stay informed, obviously you have not performed your duty. Please educate yourself on the current situation and re-post, that way at least you will have an informed opinion.
Show me where I am incorrect. You made a blanket statement not based upon any fact or, dare I say, research.
@Muppetmaster...You said..." You are protesting capitalism".....This is false, the protest is about fraud,stealing,corruption of the political system, lack of controls on Wall Street/Big Banks.
There are many more issues, but I think that is enough to prove my point that you don't know what your talking about.
chuck - you might need to educate yourself.
August 12 th - a statement was made on this Forum by the organizers that they were using a trojan horse to cover the fact that the ultimate goal of the movement was to "smash capitalism".
Go find it and then come back here and defend your statement.
@Concerned...You made the assertion, its up to you to prove your statement.
OCCUPYWALLSTREET update from Adbusters
Posted 4 months ago on Aug. 12, 2011, 11:52 a.m. EST by LupeFiascoConcert
http://www.occupywallstreet.org http://www.adbusters.org/blogs/adbusters-blog/occupywallstreet-update.html
Hey you rebels, radicals and utopian dreamers out there,
.....Strategically speaking, there is a very real danger that if we naively put our cards on the table and rally around the "overthrow of capitalism" or some equally outworn utopian slogan.....
But if we have the cunning to come up with a deceptively simple Trojan Horse demand … "
There you go...right from this here forum....
@concerned............Quote from the article you linked to....." If we naively put our cards on the table and rally around the "overthrow of capitalism" or some equally outworn utopian slogan".
If you read the article you would have notice this. " outworn & Utopian".
Utopian society: A global utopia of world peace is often seen as one of the possible endings of history.
End of history may refer to:
The advent of a particular political and economic system as a signal of the end point of humanity's sociocultural evolution and the final form of human government.
No, you need to read it in its entire context. You need to study what the political activists who organize this stand for. You need to read the leaked emails...
They knew that if they came in yelling "smash capitalism" or "socialism now" they would be immediately dismissed by a large portion of American society.
So they came in with a Trojan Horse - "we are the 99%"; "deregulation caused the banks to get too big", campaign finance reform...and so on. These are all mainstream issues that no one can argue.
But underneath it all, the organizers and many of the supporters want to replace capitalism....do a bit of research outside of this forum.
The radical left wing elements who love Castro and Mao didn't "take over" this movement - they started it inside that Trojan Horse.
@Concerned....I stand by my previous post....... Your rant makes no sense.
Except the repeal of the Glass-Steagal Act of 1933 did allow the banks to take unacceptable risks while covering their dealings from any regulators that where left.
What radical elements do you speak of?
Just more ranting from a supporter of the 1%
@Concerned....You presented no evidence, but I have. All of your posts have been opinion. And most where illogical.
You still have not answered my original post.
I present evidence to a person who doesn't accept evidence.
I'm logical to a person who doesn't accept logic.
I've done all I can do.
I think you just proved my point that you need to read things in context...and pay attention to all that is written ....you apparently missed this part of what I wrote....
"These are all mainstream issues that no one can argue."
Duh
LOL...
@Concerned...You never answered my previous post.
adbusters started it. Their blog is full of links to it. But that is beside the point. You all cling to the idea that this was "leaderless". There are emails that prove the lie behind this as well as the blog from adbusters that started it.
Keep fooling yourself if you wish. But more and more folks are aware that this is not a "leaderless" movement; nor is it in any non partisan or even bi partisan.
Keep hitting permalinks as well....unless you do it to all of your posts, I can still answer you - still keep posting the truth....
@Concerned....I present evidence to a person who doesn't accept evidence.
I'm logical to a person who doesn't accept logic.
I've done all I can do.
Adbusters Blog
OCCUPYWALLSTREET
A shift in revolutionary tactics. 267 comments Adbusters , 13 Jul 2011 Share
OCCUPYWALLSTREET
Alright you 90,000 redeemers, rebels and radicals out there,
A worldwide shift in revolutionary tactics is underway right now that bodes well for the future. The spirit of this fresh tactic, a fusion of Tahrir with the acampadas of Spain, is captured in this quote:
The beauty of this new formula, and what makes this novel tactic exciting, is its pragmatic simplicity: we talk to each other in various physical gatherings and virtual people's assemblies … we zero in on what our one demand will be, a demand that awakens the imagination and, if achieved, would propel us toward the radical democracy of the future … and then we go out and seize a square of singular symbolic significance and put our asses on the line to make it happen.
The time has come to deploy this emerging stratagem against the greatest corrupter of our democracy: Wall Street, the financial Gomorrah of America.
On September 17, we want to see 20,000 people flood into lower Manhattan, set up tents, kitchens, peaceful barricades and occupy Wall Street for a few months. Once there, we shall incessantly repeat one simple demand in a plurality of voices.
Tahrir succeeded in large part because the people of Egypt made a straightforward ultimatum – that Mubarak must go – over and over again until they won. Following this model, what is our equally uncomplicated demand?
The most exciting candidate that we've heard so far is one that gets at the core of why the American political establishment is currently unworthy of being called a democracy: we demand that Barack Obama ordain a Presidential Commission tasked with ending the influence money has over our representatives in Washington. It's time for DEMOCRACY NOT CORPORATOCRACY, we're doomed without it.
This demand seems to capture the current national mood because cleaning up corruption in Washington is something all Americans, right and left, yearn for and can stand behind. If we hang in there, 20,000-strong, week after week against every police and National Guard effort to expel us from Wall Street, it would be impossible for Obama to ignore us. Our government would be forced to choose publicly between the will of the people and the lucre of the corporations.
This could be the beginning of a whole new social dynamic in America, a step beyond the Tea Party movement, where, instead of being caught helpless by the current power structure, we the people start getting what we want whether it be the dismantling of half the 1,000 military bases America has around the world to the reinstatement of the Glass-Steagall Act or a three strikes and you're out law for corporate criminals. Beginning from one simple demand – a presidential commission to separate money from politics – we start setting the agenda for a new America.
Post a comment and help each other zero in on what our one demand will be. And then let's screw up our courage, pack our tents and head to Wall Street with a vengeance September 17.
@Concerned...Adbusters does not run OWS, they can blog anything they want.
Nothing to do with OWS? Guess you missed where Batman was there at the beginning with the organizers when adbusters first started this whole thing?
Either you are part of the "radical" element of this group and are working at keeping that element hidden or you have your own head buried in the sand....
@Concerned....Adbusters started nothing, they just suggested some concerns and possible solutions.
What radical elements? That question?
batman / been involved since adbusters / web admin, forum design, organizing, media, art, music
Quotes:
"where will it {OWS} go? to the overthrow of the machine, the current world government, and the corrupt system in place in the USA. to a better global solution where all humankind is treated equally in our new leaderful system."
"we {OWS} dont have a common goal {with the 99%declaration}. we dont want a ‘voice’ in the ‘government’. you have the wrong idea what this and OWS are about. if you can’t travel, if you cant participate in OWS, then why are you here, especially in light of your group not being wanted?"
"right now, the only question is why are these phonies from the 99D here? they dont agree with our goals or principles, they want to work with the corrupt corporate machine that has run this planet and all humankind into the dirt, t" http://occupywallst.org/forum/why-you-do-not-represent-the-real-99/#comment-565031
Unidentified poster at the 1/3/2012 GA in NY "Q: I’m a revolutionary, not a reformer…."
Those are just a few examples....here is a more complete list with sourcing.
The 99%: Official list of Occupy Wall Street’s supporters, sponsors and sympathizers
Communist Party USA
American Nazi Party
Ayatollah Khamenei, Supreme Leader of Iran
Barack Obama
The government of North Korea
Louis Farrakhan, Nation of Islam
Revolutionary Communist Party
David Duke
Joe Biden
Hugo Chavez
Revolutionary Guards of Iran
Black Panthers (original)
Socialist Party USA
US Border Guard
Industrial Workers of the World
CAIR
Nancy Pelosi
Communist Party of China
Hezbollah
9/11Truth.org
International Bolshevik Tendency
Anonymous
White Revolution
International Socialist Organization
PressTV (Iranian government outlet)
Marxist Student Union
Freedom Road Socialist Organization
ANSWER
Party for Socialism and Liberation
@Concerned....Are you sure you got everyone, LOL.
They have nothing to do with OWS, so stop wasting your precious trolling time with that nonsense.
Please explain the myriad of people on this forum who scream "capitalist greed" or those that clamour that caplitalism does not work and we need a new system. I see these words on signs of protesters as well, so it is not just this forum that shouts this crap. You are wrong and you do not even understand your own movement
It isn't about getting rid of capitalism. You know this already. You just persist in acting like a dipshit.
you might need to educate yourself.
August 12 th - a statement was made on this Forum by the organizers that they were using a Trojan horse to cover the fact that the ultimate goal of the movement was to "smash capitalism".
Go find it and then come back here and defend your statement.
Well, I looked through all official statements and didn't find it. So, you have nothing. I am not surprised.
OCCUPYWALLSTREET update from Adbusters
Posted 4 months ago on Aug. 12, 2011, 11:52 a.m. EST by LupeFiascoConcert
http://www.occupywallstreet.org http://www.adbusters.org/blogs/adbusters-blog/occupywallstreet-update.html
Hey you rebels, radicals and utopian dreamers out there,
.....Strategically speaking, there is a very real danger that if we naively put our cards on the table and rally around the "overthrow of capitalism" or some equally outworn utopian slogan.....
But if we have the cunning to come up with a deceptively simple Trojan Horse demand … "
There you go...right from this here forum....so what do you have to say now? You could also spend some time reading the leaked emails of the original organizers of OWS.
They came in with a "Trojan Horse" - using the current very real situation that middle class America finds itself in as the catalyst they need to overthrow the system. By sleight of hand, they bring in folks like you who don't take the time to find out what they (the organizers) really intended on doing and who will come on this forum and say "its not about smashing capitalism - you are a troll"...to anyone who tries to point out the reality to you...or you call them a "dipshit"....
Yet, here it is - right here on this forum....
Here, lets try rereading the entire post: Hey you rebels, radicals and utopian dreamers out there,
We are living through a rare crisis and moment of opportunity. Western industrialized nations are now being masticated by the financial monster they themselves created. This is triggering a mood that alternates between angry denial and sudden panic. It looks like something is about to break, opening the space for a necessary transformation and a total rethink of global economic affairs. Events are playing perfectly into our September 17 occupation of Wall Street.
So … can we on the left learn some new tricks? Can we head off to lower Manhattan with a fresh mindset and a powerful new demand?
Strategically speaking, there is a very real danger that if we naively put our cards on the table and rally around the "overthrow of capitalism" or some equally outworn utopian slogan, then our Tahrir moment will quickly fizzle into another inconsequential ultra-lefty spectacle soon forgotten. But if we have the cunning to come up with a deceptively simple Trojan Horse demand … something profound, yet so specific and doable that it is impossible for President Obama to ignore … something that spotlights Wall Street's financial capture of the US political system and confronts it with a pragmatic solution … like the reinstatement of the Glass-Steagall Act … or a 1% tax on financial transactions … or an independent investigation by the U.S. Department of Justice into the corporate corruption of our representatives in Washington … or another equally creative but downright practical demand that will emerge from the people's assemblies held during the occupation … and if we then put our asses on the line, screw up our courage and hang in there day after day, week after week, until a large swath of Americans start rooting for us and President Obama is forced to respond … then we just might have a crack at creating a decisive moment of truth for America, a first concrete step towards achieving the radical changes we all dream about unencumbered by commitments to existing power structures.
So, let's learn the strategic lessons of Tahrir (nonviolence), Syntagma (tenacity), Puerta del Sol (people's assemblies) and lay aside adherence to political parties and worn-out lefty dogmas. On September 17, let's sow the seeds of a new culture of resistance in America that fires up a permanent democratic awakening.
See you on Wall St. Sept 17. Bring Tent.
for the wild, Culture Jammers HQ
I see you found it this time....so I guess you were wrong when you wrote:
Well, I looked through all official statements and didn't find it. So, you have nothing. I am not surprised.
And in total context, it still says the same thing ....they came in with a Trojan Horse hiding their true goal of ending capitalism....(which if you look hard enough my dear - say in those leaked emails).......
"But if we have the cunning to come up with a deceptively simple Trojan Horse demand … something profound, yet so specific and doable that it is impossible for President Obama to ignore … something that spotlights Wall Street's financial capture of the US political system and confronts it with a pragmatic solution … like the reinstatement of the Glass-Steagall Act … or a 1% tax on financial transactions … or an independent investigation by the U.S. Department of Justice into the corporate corruption of our representatives in Washington … or another equally creative but downright practical demand that will emerge from the people's assemblies held during the occupation … and if we then put our asses on the line, screw up our courage and hang in there day after day, week after week, until a large swath of Americans start rooting for us and President Obama is forced to respond … then we just might have a crack at creating a decisive moment of truth for America, a first concrete step towards achieving the radical changes we all dream about unencumbered by commitments to existing power structures."
Radical changes.....
You have been on here stating that the goal of the OWS is not to defeat capitalism and replace it with their version of socialism - yet post after post here from supporters shows that that is a goal of many of the protesters. The organizers posts and emails from the earliest days prove it is a goal of the movement.
Keep denying it all you want. You can't change the truth that is hidden in that Trojan Horse.
I found this the first time. You are taking it out of context. Intentionally.
It matters not, you are here specifically to waste time.
Taking what out of context. That they specifically stated that they were coming in using a Trojan Horse? You do understand the historical context behind that don't you?
She might have no idea what a Trojan Horse is. She also might not care. Or she might be so enchanted by the horsey (OWS) that she has no idea it's filled with America's enemies.
I don't think she understands. I don't think she understands she is a he either.
@Concerned...Why don't you go home.
Lost the argument didn't you? Now you have to tell me to "go home"....! LOL
@Concerned..Which argument might that be?
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Obama has no intention of turning this into a socialist country. You have to be a complete uneducated hilljack to believe that. You can bullshit some of the people some of the time but not all of the people all of the time.
You will no longer exploit the people that do the living, working, breathing and dying in this country. Your best move is to address the issues NOW, while you still can.
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We have always had a mixed economy you dipshit. It is about balance.
You had better learn how to address the issues now, while you still can. I promise you that refusal to do so will backfire.
@Muppetmaster...I don't explain another persons opinion and I don't know the context of it.
You state that OWS is not supporting the end of capitalism, but many of your brothers in arms are, so by extension so is OWS.
@Muppetmaster ...Who are these people?
Part of OWS.
@muppetmaster...Prove your assertion.
If someone is marching is an OWS rally holding a sign concerning the detruction of capitalism and that capitalism is the root of the problem, then are they not part of OWS?
@Muppetmaster...That in itself means nothing,it could have been anybody.....But the problem concerns Capitalism, just as it did in the 1890's with the robber barons.
Uncontrolled capitalism along with fraud are the problems with the capitalistic system.
Are you for or against continuing capitalism?
@Muppetmaster.....
In his 1973 study of the economic principles established at the foundation of the United States, E.A.J. Johnson wrote:
The general view, discernible in contemporaneous literature, was that the responsibility of government should involve enough surveillance over the enterprise system to ensure the social usefulness of all economic activity. It is quite proper, said Bordley, for individuals to “choose for themselves” how they will apply their labor and their intelligence in production. But it does not follow from this that “legislators and men of influence” are freed from all responsibility for giving direction to the course of national economic development. They must, for instance, discountenance the production of unnecessary commodities of luxury when common sense indicates the need for food and other essentials. Lawmakers can fulfill their functions properly only when they “become benefactors to the publick”; in new countries they must safeguard agriculture and commerce, encourage immigration, and promote manufactures. Admittedly, liberty “is one of the most important blessings which men possess,” but the idea that liberty is synonymous with complete freedom from restraint “is a most unwise, mistaken apprehension.” True liberty demands a system of legislation that will lead all members of society “to unite their exertions” for the public welfare. It should therefore be the policy of government to aid and foster certain activities or kinds of business that strengthen a nation, even as it should be the duty of government to repress “those fashions, habits, and practices, which tend to weaken, impoverish, and corrupt the people.”
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Consider that, as far as OWS is concerned, if you're not making a million dollars or more a year, then you're in the 99%. You're either part of the 99 or part of the 1. It's that simple.
You can throw that 99% label on me, but I do not support OWS. I still have that freedom, do I not?
of course
Then I choose not to be labeled as a 99%r either. I refuse to be associated with your circus in any way. You can label me the enemy if you wish, but I am not for this movement. Though highly unlikely that you will succeed with your plans, if you do what would you do with those who dissent? I know the answer, it is disenfranchisement as you and your group will look at those like me as being a threat and unworthy to participate or better yet, protest YOU.
I'm not sure what you're freaking out about but if you make less than a million dollars a year, you're part of the 99%.
Good luck in all of your endeavors.
Then don't label yourself as a 99% person.
Fine.
You are not a part of 99%. Happy?
Now, looks like your job here is done.
Scram.
Nice post, my thoughts exactly. I did not like or support TARP, but based on the majority of posts around here you would think the only way to solve our problems is to take the money from those who have it and spread it around evenly. If you support that, you are free to begin your own commune and prove to the rest of us how good life can be.
...The banks have said, leave us deregulated...don't put government in to meddle. Then with that freedom of maneuver they took huge gambles, and even made illegal actions, and then broke the world system. As soon as that happened then they rushed out to say 'bail us out, bail us out, if you don't bail us out, we're too big to fail, you have to save us'. As soon as that happened, they said 'oh, don't regulate us, we know what to do'....the public is standing there, amazed, because we just bailed you out how can you be paying yourself billions of dollars of bonuses again? And the bankers say, well we deserve it...And the problem that the Occupy Wall Street and other protesters have is: you don't deserve it, you nearly broke the system, you gamed the economy..., yet you're still in the White House [;] you're going to the state dinners, you're paying yourself huge bonuses...?" ~Jeffrey Sachs, Columbia University"
http://www.earth.columbia.edu/articles/view/1804
It was government meddling that caused the problem. Requirements to increase the percentages of low income loans were part of the Clinton era "reforms" (i.e. regulations). Then there was concern on how to manage the risk of these loans so they bundled them together and sold them as mortgage back securities thinking that since they were backed by a physical property it would retain value. Problem was, this resulted in an increase of lower quality properties fueling the housing bubble. What is the alleged "illegal" actions they took?
I am not trying to say that they were completely innocent, but to drop all the problems on bankers and a lack of regulation is merely short-sighted and inaccurate. I for one don't believe they should have been bailed out and the politicians on both sides misled us, as to the nature of TARP. Originally I thought it was to provide a backstop for minimum deposits to meet current regulations but it went much farther than that.
I am no happier than the rest of OWS about the situation, but don't just pick out a convenient scap-goat and rally the peasants to grab their pitchforks and storm the castles. There is room for reform, I for one would like to see the following from the SEC on options trading and a few other things.
1) Do not allow option trading of more shares than exist or that allowed for trading.
2) Allow share holders to specify whether they will allow their shares to be "borrowed" for option trading for a small fee.
3) Require share-holder approval of executive pay packages.
4) Any shares used for executive bonuses will be non-voting shares.
5) Require that executive and board member shares be held for a certain minimum amount of time to make sure that executives aren't only looking to boost short term stock price at the expense of long term stability.
If you are going to insist on regulation of the financial industry, at least make it sensible instead of a bunch of stupid reporting rules like Dodd-Frank, which only increases the cost of doing business and provides lawyers a guaranteed paycheck trying to find ways around them.
Harvard is one of the most liberal schools in the country. There latest poll shows the following:
33% of Americans agree with the basic premis of OWS (Not the movement itself) 37% of Americans do not agree with OWS 30% of Americans don't care about OWS
So really they should start calling themselves the less than 33% after taking out all of the folks who have gone away from the two core issues OWS started with (corruption in government and corporate funding of government).
Well said.
99% of the people will be screwed/ are currently screwed because of Fed policy.
I have to say that I understand where you are coming from, but I also understand the OWS movement. You obviously don't struggle in the Middle Class like most of us. We don't have huge debt, or any student loans, but as a true "Middle Class" family, we are getting closer to broke. We aren't anywhere near qualifying for assistance (not that I want to), but salary has gone down so now we both work, which has left us exhausted trying to keep up with the kids and working. Healthcare, living expenses, and entertainment have gone up so now we do without some of all three, which has made life a little less enjoyable. Our house has dropped in value so much that we can't sell it and downsize. Wealthy folks I know have become more wealthy, and yes most work on or for Wall Street or big business. They have huge homes and are having additions put on, they drive Mercedes and their kids go to private school. They take vacations with the bonus from said positions, while the only bonus we see is that we are lucky to still have a job even if it pays less than the last one. Combine that with some of the top 10 corporations not paying federal income tax, and I'm sorry but there is just something wrong here. It is a struggle to be in the Middle Class. I don't want a hand-out, and I'm not protesting. We just want things to be fair. If that means CEOs and the like who already make a million don't get another million in bonuses because their companies have to start paying taxes, then so be it. As a registered Independent, I wish our Middle Class struggle is something the government would take notice of and take steps to correct. We have lost all faith in government to do the right thing, which is why I am here and lean toward supporting OWS. Just one example; but our constant struggle is the true voice of the 99%.
I am much more middle class than you understand. We struggled for 4 years with me being the sole income earner while I paid my wifes way through college with zero dept. I had not taken a vacation for 5 years and finally took one this year as my wife now works. I know struggle, I know there are problemsm but OWS is looking at the wrong place, it is the government. Private companies do not owe protestors anything at all and are not required to listen to them. OWS is yelling at a rock expecting it to move, it sill not happen. Then, of course, comes the political side of OWS( which they say they are a-politicalm they are not), they are socialist/marxist/boardering on communist in their leanings; "from each according to his ability, to each according to his need"-Karl Marx-The OWS creed. What do they mean by "paying their fair share?" I cannot support this movement becasue they want to redo the Constitution and the Bill of Rights to suit their agenda. We could have 5% unemployment (like under Bush) and they would still claim they could not find a job because they are not satisfied with what is offered. Regarsing healthcare cost, my benefits at the huge corporation I work for have gone up and it IS a dorect result of Obama care and the mafate that insurance MUST cover "kids" up to 26 years old. Simple economics; costs go up so it is passed on. The Tax code was written by congress, sure, wtih help from the corporations, but who allowed that to happen? the 99%,thats who becasue too many are too lazy to know the issues or the candidate. Too many vote for the guy who gives them something while selling themselves out to lobbyists as well. You get food on your table provided by the government so you vote for the guy who made it happen, regardless of his/her other votes and ties to lobbyists. Obama said he would vlean house of lobbyists, but there is more lobbying than ever before, yet he will still be voted for by those who recieve food from him. OWS is a left wing organization that will NEVER protest a democrat because they want the dinner bell to ring for themselves.
@Muppetmaster........You are a liar!..Everything in your post is made up by you or your handlers.
Nobody has your kind of hate unless they are ideologically driven.
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I agree with you that democrates are bought. That is why there is a need for reform of the campaign financing. There are too many false statements for me to start arguing with you.
It is correct that the movement does not represent 99%. It is just a figure of speech. To my understanding democracy and capitalism are two control systems and the main control system is democracy and capitalism is just a sub-system. Unfortunately capitalism has control over the democratic system in U.S.A. Obviously their needs to be reform of campaign financing to adress this problem.
I would also like to tell you that I believe with my heart that the people in the OWS movement are 10 times better americans than you are.
This site might be censored, but its generosity is obvious in letting you post so many falls statements.
Republicans are most of the time bought by corporations. That is probably why they are not so populare with the movement.
Pelle,
You keep pointing out alleged "false statements" and then state that you won't prove them false. Why is that? Is it because you want them to be false when in reality, they are not?
Pelle, can you explain then why Goldman Sachs and all the other Wall Street finance companies backed Obama in 2008? When you figure out that this financial support of one party or another swings with the tides of the economy then you will have gone a long way to really representing the 99%.
And you prove Muppetmaster's points again...instead of calling him a "troll" you state that others here are better Americans than he is....argue with facts not general accusations of character.
What is false about my statements? Also, Please see that your democrat heros are bought and paid for by special interests and unions, plenty of fresh ink on their hands.
How come the occupiers DON'T FUCKING MINUS the heck out of these idiots? What the fuck is wrong with you?
You proved at least 2 of my points.
When one attempts to bootstrap out of mud, others must join in.
Muppet mastet you are an idiot and troll
and what do you base that on? I have been on here for months and ecerything I state is backed by facts from numerous OWS posts. You just have an opinion.
Why did I just now find this post. You could be my father.
OP. You do not understand this movement. You don't understand that everyone is welcome and entitled to their own opinion. If an opinion is liked by everyone it gets traction, otherwise it is forgotten. That is how a leaderless movement works. Not everyone agrees to everything and that's fine. Here's a quote: “If everybody’s thinking alike, somebody isn’t thinking”
I have gone by several names on this forum. After a week or so of posting my new posts would no longer appear after posting-that is censorship. You apparently do not or have not read the myriad of posts excoriating people on the right. Show me one post from a real OWSr that support ANY republican. Agoan, OWS claims to be non partisan, yea, and the pope is not catholic, neither are true statements. There are crys for the wealthy to "pay their fare share" not just on this forum, but on the streets. Who determines the definition of "fair share"?. OWS is crying about corporate greed, sorry but the purpose of a publicly traded business is to maximize the return on the investement of the share holders: business 101. It appears to me and the 99% of my friends that the protesters are nothing but a bunch of people who have no desire to become productive in any part of society. I suppose they look at Al Sharpton and Jessie Jackson as being mentors as the only thing they ever do to vreate their wealth is to bitch, moan, and protest; no labor involved and a damned fine living too.
again you dont understand leaderless movements. Take anonymous for example: they propose a lot of operations but only those supported by enough people get traction. YOU support republicans. That's fine, but to get YOUR republican agenda going on, you need to convince OTHERS. It's fairly simple.
I personally don't agree to republican policy but that's MY view. Reps make no sense whatsoever to anyone except the top 1%. Here's a little something for you on that topic.
http://www.aljazeera.com/programmes/faultlines/2011/08/201181125338194522.html
However, you can support whatever you want if you can get enough people to support you. That's how this movement works. You can be frustrated because YOUR views don't get traction but that's only YOUR fault for sticking to views that not everyone can agree to.
Your idea is to tax more from those that can "afford it" and then transfer the taxes to those that "need it", That is the basic philosphy are Karl Marx as well as the democrats. Is this what you believe to be the corect course to take? You understand that if everyone is equal than everyone is miserable, I give you the USSR as the prime example. Is this what you are aiming for? In life, whether human or other species, there are winners and losers, that is something you, OWS and anonymous do not understand. Those that take the greatest risk DESERVE the greatest reward. What is wrong with that? If you feel that the political class is corrupt use the current system to vote them out. Consider this; OWS claims to represent 99%, right? well it would only stand to reason that 99% has the weight to oust the 1% at the ballot box, simple math, right? Then why has it not happened? because there are lazy people who do not go, then there are people who vote only when they will receive some of the largess and vote democrat (you know it is true, so do not fool yourself), then there are those that do not want those that vote for the pillaging of the treasury to succeed, so they vote to cancel out the pillagers. If you truley had the 99%, then you would be in control, but this only proves you do not have the support you claim to have.
buddy....you are misguided. You want to promote republican values. That doesn't mean that OWS doesnt work.
I wont waste a lot of effort on you. You disliked my posts even when they were informative. You reply with republican bull. That's fine and dandy. But it shows your true colors. You bash OWS because they dont believe in reps.
My personal view, and this isn't the movement as a whole's view but my own personal view is that only helping others we grow as a nation. We can't be a nation of everyone by themselves. We are all family. When your cousin is having a hard time, you give him a hand, but of course a rep like you would say f you. In the long run, that means you are never to expect a hand from anyone. To put it in words you can understand, 100% capitalism is bull. 100% socialism is bull. A balance must be reached. When the poor get richer, the richer get richer not the way around. When the richer get richer, they are just richer. When the poorer get richer, they have power to buy stuff that the rich people sell and economy works. This is my last post to you. I hope you understand now. I hope you learned a little. If you didn't I suggest you take an official economics course, like I did at my university. Have a good day. Have fun trolling people with your ideas. Whatever.
I give directly to those who need it. When I give 10 dollars directly to the person who needs it (btw, my wife has given hundreds in the month of December) they get the full amount. When the government takes that same 10 dollars they pass along about 2 dollars to the recipient. That is the democrat way, the great society. Pretty effective, isn't it?
Do you support this?
http://occupywallst.org/forum/the-great-satan/
The Revolution starts here!
Please use numbers to support your position. Communicate clearly and succinctly. In other words, find a way to articulate your position without taking up so much space.
Koch industries pay people like you to lie, lie, lie about the MATH and the NUMBERS which support our position.
Otherwise you'd find something equally useless and profitable in which to engage, like the financial services industry.
and you prove his point....
You are a paranoid little lib.
Aww... how cute. Just so refreshing. Thank you for enlivening the discussion.
Please prove the Koch industries pays ANYONE to lie, here or anywhere else.
Find a way to articulate your position without insinuation, propaganda, and logical fallacies.
Oh, i guess I forgot to list schizophrenia, paranoia, and conspiracy theories as being OWS MOs. It is laughable how many of you claim that people who disagree are getting paid by someone to be on here. What is your story, who pays you?
Please use math to state your case. Numbers don't lie.
No one is paying me to participate in this forum. I have a couple of days off work, for which I am very grateful. Again, please articulate your position in a clear, succinct way, using verifiable math, to support your position. Thank you.
What's with this sudden obsession with "math and numbers"? Seems like an easy way to reject, dismiss, or disqualify someone's point of view.
And what's the problem with "taking up so much space"? I prefer THAT to someone spouting off a series of vapid bumper-sticker slogans, incendiary sophistry, and rhetorical non-sequiturs... "math and numbers"? Like 100 - 99 = 1 % ? Or like what percentage of evil greedy bastards "controls" what percentage of the nation's wealth? Etc etc...
Point being: "numbers and math" ARE, in fact, definitive and absolute, but the conclusions we draw from them are NOT. For every set of statistics, there's a multitude of ways to interpret and correlate them... And that's the fundamental folly I see so many Occupy zealots commit, time and again: they take a set of numbers - objective statistics - and shoehorn those numbers into their own narrow subjective interpretation, and then present it as irrefutable FACT in support of their ideological claims...
For example, here's some numbers:I have a list of about 140 protesters who were arrested in the final days of Occupy Boston... of those, about 60% of them were 29 years old or younger (half of those were 22 or younger), and the rest were mostly older than 50 (about 25% of the total).... most of the young ones were either college students, recent college dropouts, or typical bohemian hipsters... The ones over 50 were crusty, washed-up hippies from the 1960's... partisan career-activists.
How does this represent the 99%? Most of the young ones have never had a job to speak of - and their experience and knowledge regarding the world of economics, capitalism, finance, and politics is limited to the things they've been spoonfed through twitter or whatever - incited by inflammatory rhetoric about revolution for equality, and tearing the system down, and power to the people, etc. And most of the older ones are just lifelong activists... compulsive malcontents who's world-view gets more and more distorted and radical as they get older....
It's not fair or accurate to judge the whole movement based on these people though, right? Those misinformed idiots and naive bandwagon-jumpers don' t represent the whole Occupy movement, right?
How's that different from the Occupy movement making generalizations about banks, or bankers, or corporations, or police officers, or military servicemembers, or republicans, or tea-party members, or anyone who might not agree with the OWS perspective? The whole OWS doctrine is BASED on prejudicial generalizations like that... All rich people are greedy thieves... all politicians are corrupt... all corporations exploit the consumer... all police officers abuse their power... etc...
You are a poor judge of character. Please understand these people have histories and life circumstances just like you do. Please do not blame people whom you perceive as victims, or somehow socially inferior. Remember what assumptions can do for us. "Pride comes before a fall," I've heard quoted.
Please Google up the Gini coefficient, which compares wealth disparities throughout the world. This graph is more credible than your numbers.
These "numbers don't lie." You can yell, rant, and rave all you want. The numbers tell the story. Just "follow the money."
That is just plain stupid. Please use math to prove your question. See how stupid that sounds? the only place where numbers are the absolute is in binary code and that is 0 and 1. If you did a biography would it only be about numbers?
Look up the "Gini" graph which describes income/wealth disparities. Look up research on wealth disparities done by the University of California, Santa Cruz which uses Central Intelligence Agency data to back its claims. Its numbers are more credible than yours. They have a concept of math which extends beyond binary codes used in computer programming, etc. Please take context into account. We aren't discussing biographies here. We're discussing the gross inequities posed by vast disparities in wealth and income at this time (the 1% versus 99%) -- remember?
Sure.... "income inequality".... The gap between the rich and the poor is larger than ever..........
And??
Is income SUPPOSED to be "equal"? Are you hoping for some sort of "equal pay" legislation? And this is the true fundamental ignorance and idiocy of the Occubot movement, overall: you people believe that the the only reason certain people are so "rich" is because they stole it from the poor and middle-class.... likewise, you think that the reason so many people are "poor" is because these greedy corrupt rich bastards swooped in and STOLE that money right out of your pockets...
But that's not how it works... First of all, there are countless reasons for the widening gap between the rich and the poor... reasons that range from increased immigration (legal and otherwise) since the mid 1980s, expansion of government assistance programs for low-income households, and technological developments that have eliminated broad swathes of entry-level and mid-level jobs in various industries -(or have otherwise stunted the growth of low-level wages)... On top of that, excessive government regulation has driven many businesses to relocate their facilities and workforces overseas... And overall, the nature of the job-market has shifted... there's less demand for certain high-level skills (especially tech-related), leaving a lot of people out of work and overqualified.
Add a global economic downturn into the mix, and the problems are compounded. But here's the thing: a lot of people who were already living paycheck-to-paycheck before the recession have been the hardest hit over the years. Those with high income were much less effected in the big picture. Sure, maybe they have to sell some toys or real-estate, or whatever... or maybe they'll have to hold-off on making capital purchases... but overall, they are still doing pretty well, because their income, assets, and savings insulated them against the recession... however, the mid-to-low income people took it on the chin. That's another reason for the widening gap... I's unfortunate, but there's nothing shady or unnatural about it...
And people are totally barking up the wrong tree by whining about 'income inequality'... And trying to demonize "the rich" is just straight-up ignorant and misguided.
The "rich", in general, are not the problem - they haven't stolen from the poor, and their "greed" is not the reason for the growing inequality.
Everyone is fired up about the high salaries and compensation for CEO's - but what about actors, musicians, professional athletes, and other celebrities?? Those people comprise the majority of our nation's millionaires... where's the outrage about how RICH they are?
If anything, the athletes, musicians, actors, and media personalities are even WORSE because at least most CEOs run companies that produce, distribute, or supply goods or services, and typically employ thousands of people.. so, in the general sense, they probably do a whole hell of a lot more to help the economy than the rich entertainers and celebrities...
So yeah, they have a lot more money than you, and you think that's somehow unfair - but they didn't get rich by STEALING from people like you... and their wealth is not the cause of other people's poverty.
And that's the biggest problem with the whole Occupy movement: it's all based on the ridiculous misconception that "the rich" are to blame. But it's just simple class-warfare and class-envy - and most of these Occubots are just brainwashed tools of anti-capitalist partisan demagogues.
Lower taxes on the very wealthy, a trend begun in the early 1980's, was supposed to help ALL of us enjoy a higher standard of living, but instead it has resulted in greater productivity and job outsourcing. How was that a fair deal?
How or when have I said the the rich got rich "by STEALING from people like" me?
Expenses like government regulation (usually safety-related, by the way) and expansion of government assistance for the poor and disabled are SUCH A DROP IN THE BUCKET in term of state and national budgets compared to the amounts raked in by multinational corporations and war subcontractors. Yes, they are programs that adults concede should continue to exist, to help the least among us. Children are less likely to try to help the victims, but instead choose to blame them for their plight. Technological advancements were enabled by the faith the 99% placed in research and development, university-corporate partnerships, and charities that they would ultimately provide a social safety net for all.
Please don't insult me by assuming I was personally profligate with my funds and am hurting financially right now, and am so childish as to blame someone else for troubles of my own making. I happened to have had the wherewithal to read, consider, and act in financially prudent ways during the last few decades and am fine financially. Please don't immediately make false assumptions about those who grapple with this very real issue in the lives of so many.
Consult the Gini coefficient, which compares wealth disparities throughout the world.
And we are not discussing the BS you are spewing. I am telling you why you do not have support of most of the US population.
I should have typed GINI coefficient, which though developed in 1912, is still used today to consider wealth disparity worldwide.
The CIA has up-to-date figures on increasing wealth disparities. I don't know about you, but the United States Central Intelligence Agency probably provides the most accurate "math and numbers" in the world. If we can't agree on this, there is really very little point attempting to engage in any sort of dialogue or civil discourse with you, now is there? Hence, we have rioting on the streets. Now, would you rather have a civil discussion based on our very own Central Intelligence Agency's numbers on vast inequalities in wealth and income distribution, or do you want DECREASED PRODUCTIVITY? You should know that technological advancements and innovation have resulted in our most productive time in history, and hence, "jobless recoveries."
Productivity is good, we all agree on this. We shouldn't be punished for being so productive, should we? But that is exactly what has happened. We don't want to invest anymore, or bail anyone out anymore, or take any more risks whatsoever because of the recent financial collapse. The very wealthy simply find ways to turn the rest of us into losers, just like at the casino.
These are the "math and numbers" even moderately well-educated people can consider. Are you even moderately well-educated enough to do this?
See when you make a very extreme accusation like that you must back it up with MATH and NUMBERS. Or else you accusation has no ground to stand upon and no one will take you seriously.
Please find the "Gini" graph on income and wealth disparities. The University of California, Santa Cruz cites C.I.A. figures on income and wealth disparities throughout the world.
There is no such thing as a Giji graph. Are you talking about the Gini coefficient? It was not developed using CIA figures and has existed since 1912.
Yes, I am talking about the GINI coefficient. You are correct in that it wasn't developed using CIA figures and has existed since 1912. It is still used to consider wealth disparities.
The University of Santa Cruz has studied wealth disparities throughout the world and cites recent CIA figures to profile vast and growing wealth disparities worldwide.
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You make many great points. One huge problem with occupy, is I don't believe any of them give a damn aBout baseball.
The problem is with any O W S inflicted person actually reading this without seeing it to be a anything but a series of insults. Any truth that disagrees with their OWN personal reality is an insult or an attack. Its the "progressive" infliction aka Zombie Cultism
"You do not respect any authority."
On the matter of bootmaking, I respect the authority of the bootmaker. If you meant any other type of authority, no, it's probably illegitimate.
You have proven my point.
Yes, the problem is the point is wrong.
do you respect the police, fire dept or military? You understood the point, you just deflected to try and prove that you are still child like in your thinking.
MuppetMaster-(and anyone else)
I've found something that not only sheds light on this whole &^%$#@@ fighting amongst ourselves thing (and makes me PISSED that it's been allowed to happen at all) but MAYBE...just maybe-the answer we ALL need to consider-
http://occupywallst.org/forum/why-doesnt-everyone-know-this/
Your feedback is welcome! PLEASE just consider it?
Lots of applause and cheers for Muppetmaster. What an excellent, truthful and sincere post. You said what so many of us in here have said. This time it seems 67 listened.
Thank you for your time, energy and effort.I know I appreciate it.
@bambi...your a fool.
PERFECT!
This site censors the Truth!
you are out of touch with reality maybe you are just not bright enough to see that the system itself has created the current situation and trying to fix the system is an exercise in futility. anything to maintain the status quo though right.... it is so laughable. don't be scared of the change my friend embrace it because it is one of two things because there is no going back. 1) usa becomes a fascist state. 2) the coming revolution succeeds and we create something big beautiful and new. those are the only options when ever you wanna accept this truth we can move on from there. period.
This is why we are here this is why you are needed.
http://occupywallst.org/forum/inside-job-documentary/
Share, circulate, educate, inspire.
"You believe that contracts are not binding and people are just too stupid to understand that if you take out a loan you should have to pay it back or the collateral is forfeited."
Of course contracts are not binding if the binders are the ones robbing society, therefore making it harder to honor the contract.
sheesh.
Then you say...You are theives. You now support "occupying homes" that do not belong to you or the people you move in to the home. The foreclosed home belongs to the bank and therefore it belongs to the stock holders of the banks, people like me who expect a return on my investment."
Here you prove you are uneducated in this area. try reading www.swarmthbanks.com once or twice a day and you'll "get it".
Take as much space as you want. There's always room for the truth.
tool
FOOL
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You decimated "the government" in recent years, right? Thank you for your self-avowed results of this decimation of public services. You rightly point out the deficiency of the results. Were you once "indoctrinated?" How did straight math, which describes the billions and trillions of dollars raked in each day by the very rich, delude you? Perhaps you could educate yourself a bit more and investigate the C.I.A.'s numbers on wealth accrual by the upper 1%.
Would you like to show a link to these numbers from the C.I.A. cause otherwise cannot support your claim.
The University of California at Santa Cruz has done extensive research on wealth disparities. This research cites C.I.A. data which provides the foundation for my claim. Specifically the "Gini chart" or graph can help.
I do believe there is still opportunity here, but it takes effort and sacrifice, something that has been lost over the past couple of generations. I also believe in personal responsibility and self sufficiency, does not have a clue as to what either one of those are and if this continuesin another generation the US will be ripe for picking from countries that have the will and desire to take what they want.
I completely agree with this. This is a well thought out response to OWS. These protesters are simple children that never grew up, and now they are in the real world and they want mommy and daddy to take care of them. Like I said I agree with the post.