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Forum Post: Why Is Everyone Broke??

Posted 7 years ago on Dec. 21, 2011, 8:11 a.m. EST by eyeofthetiger (304)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

where r the jobs O B a ma

141 Comments

141 Comments


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[-] 3 points by JPB950 (2254) 7 years ago

Many of our problems are self inflicted. We feel like we need a house, I certainly did, but economic studies show renting is better financially in the long run then owning. We buy a car based on what the payments will be instead of what the cost is. After trading in a couple of cars after two or three years that had 6 year loans, you shouldn't be surprised that you're upside down on the loans. We like instant gratification and don't seem to mind going into credit car debt to get it. No evil CEO or banker weaving evil schemes while twirling his mustache.

Some of it is just the way things are calculated. If you have a fairly good middle class job, $50,000, let's say, drive a used car that has no loan and carry no credit card debt. All it would take is a mortgage and your net worth is negative. You pay your bills, have a mortgage that you can afford, may even be content with your life. You will still show up in the list of people with no money or negative wealth. The fact that it's different for different people shouldn't effect your contentment.

[-] 1 points by justicia (58) from New York, NY 7 years ago

If you're really interested in why the middle class is going broke, I suggest you watch this YouTube video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GHg3GAeQ1Y

Elizabeth Warren - The Two Income Trap: Why Middle-Class Mothers and Fathers Are Going Broke

[-] 1 points by JPB950 (2254) 7 years ago

Sorry I think my position has been misunderstood. The number of people broke may be large, but it is not a very large percentage of the population. The way we are measuring things this is questionable.

Net worth is misleading and bankruptcy only sounds bad if you look at it as a number rather then a percentage. Not everyone is going broke, more then in previous years perhaps, but in relative terms not that many are broke.

[-] 1 points by justicia (58) from New York, NY 7 years ago

If "going broke" means filing for bankruptcy, you're right. Not that many Americans are at that extreme stage.

But the middle class is slowly going broke because their incomes have not kept pace with the costs of: health care and insurance; education; and (until the crash) housing. People were borrowing money to make ends meet, under the illusion that rising home values could be tapped to pay off the debt. We've seen how that movie ends.

[-] 1 points by JPB950 (2254) 7 years ago

I know you can find examples for what you say, but I don't know how big a problem it actually is. I don't know a lot of people that refinanced just to make ends meet, but I've done no survey.

I've saw a great deal of land speculation with housing, a lot of bank foreclosures over that type of personal greed. Neighbors that complain about money, but they pay extra for premium cable and have smart phones with unlimited data plans. It's what I meant by self inflicted problems in my original post.

Everyone is using a picture that suits their political agenda so I don't know what the truth is. Everyone wants the government to do more but no one wants to pay. The one thing I'm sure of there are not enough rich people to pay for things.

If you took every penny of assets (not just their income, take everything they own) for the top 400 richest people in the US, you could just make the payment on one year of our nation's debt. The top 400 have about $1.5 trillion in assets. We spent more then that on health care alone in the US.

[-] 1 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 7 years ago

The person in your hypothetical example does not have a negative net worth.

Let’s take a look how a simple loan situation might impact net worth. Imagine that you have no assets and no liabilities. You go down to the bank, take out a $10,000 loan and deposit the money into your checking account.  What was the impact on your net worth?  None… really, there was no impact. You now have $10,000 in the bank and $10,000 in liabilities. Your net worth is zero.

http://www.mint.com/blog/credit-2/how-debt-impacts-your-net-worth-072011/

[-] 2 points by JPB950 (2254) 7 years ago

Amusing example. With any interest you will be paying back more then you borrowed and with the first payment you'll move into the negative column. same thing with any major purchase. Drive off the lot with that new car and it immediately depreciates making your loan greater then your asset. Home mortgage, you pay back about 2.5 times what you borrowed.

The point is for most people with a negative net worth, it's meaningless. If you can make your payments, you live your life unaware or unconcerned about this acceptable level of personal debt. Having negative net worth isn't of itself a catastrophe. It just manages to make those with a positive net worth look richer.

[-] 1 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 7 years ago

You might want to glance at that article that I posted since you have an interest in personal finance. But I'm happy as long as you're not falsely educating people to think that buying a home with a mortgage subtracts the principal of the loan from your net worth.

[-] 1 points by JPB950 (2254) 7 years ago

I'm not sure I'm making myself clear, sorry if I've expressed it poorly. I have an opinion similar to that of the author of the article. Net worth isn't such a big deal neither is debt, it depends on the circumstances of the debt you're in and what you do with it.

I'm not concerned as long as I can afford to pay what I owe, even if I'm upside down on a house. My net worth alone isn't really relevant to anything. Depending on how you calculate things, I could be broke or have a negative net worth. That isn't the problem many people think it is.

[-] 1 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 7 years ago

I totally agree, and especially so with your first paragraph in your original post about how people bring these problems on themselves. That's why my wife and I share one twelve-year-old car even though we both make six figures, and we paid that car off with a two-year loan. Car loans are for suckers because cars immediately start depreciating in value toward zero. But you wouldn't believe how hard it was to convince somebody to do a two-year car loan. People just don't do that. They think more about the monthly payments than about the total amount that they're spending, "$400 and a 75-month loan, sure that sounds like something that I can afford, I can afford $400/month!". Great, so you just paid how much for that car? Most people don't even calculate the total amount that they're going to end up spending. By paying more per month in the beginning and then driving the car into the ground, and by only having one car between two people, we spent tens of thousands less than people who make far less money, who replace their modest cars every 3-4 years and who pay loans the entire time. And so we get to have an awesome car instead of a Honda, and we pay way way way less for it.

My grandparents have a fairly small house that started out very small, and over time it became a jigsaw puzzle of additions. When I was younger I never knew why, but recently my grandmother told me about how when my grandfather came home after WWII, he bought a vacant lot with cash. Lots of other GIs in town also did. Then he bought a bunch of lumber and building supplies in batches over months, with cash. Then he and extended family and a few paid workers built a small house. Slowly. All with cash. Very few of the houses in their town were financed. Most were built like this. So they're small, but none of them brought crushing debt on any of the families.

It isn't really the 1%'s fault that we choose to screw ourselves over by willfully jumping off of debt cliffs. It does kind of suck that the world is set up so that people like me who can afford to buy things with less financing nd up spending less money. It does suck that rich people can make money simply by having money in the first place. But if my grandparents didn't need a mortgage to build a family then we probably don't really need that either, any more than we need a new car every three years. We bring it on ourselves through our own greed and our lust for immediate gratification. It isn't just the greed of the 1% holding us back, it's also our own greed.

[-] 1 points by JPB950 (2254) 7 years ago

I have no problem with anyone deciding to take out a loan of any type. It's a different world for us then it was for our grandparents, building codes would probably stop most people from doing what your grandparents did.

You are exactly right about people wanting too much too fast and doing it without thinking though. We seem to be leaning too much on government and are too willing to say we're victims.

[-] 0 points by gestopomillyy (1695) 7 years ago

and this has what to do with there being no jobs. calculate negative net worth and subtract.. what do you get

[-] 2 points by JPB950 (2254) 7 years ago

It has very little to do with the fact that there are fewer jobs then workers. I took the statement in the post to be about whether or not you had money. There are times I've had a job and lived check to check with nothing left over. Working doesn't necessarily mean you're not broke.

Real unemployment is probably around 15 to 20%, but there are people with expenses greater then what their income is that can be added to that group of people that are broke.

[-] 2 points by Stormcrow (11) 7 years ago

50% of the population depends on the government for it's support, 20% rely to some degree on the government and the remaining 30% are doing just fine.

As stated todays society - primarily the X and Y generation don't want to have to work and wait to fulfil their needs.

They want it now, and they want it all now.

Ever wonder why the housing market tanked? It's because of stupid "financial decisions" made by "stupid individuals".

The main reason for a lot of todays problems is that the vast majority of people in this country have "no ownership" in what they own. They don't value anything including themselves.

This also includes the house they own, the car they drive, the toys they own and the clothes they wear.

So, how can you expect someone to be "financially responsible" when they act like this - you can't.

If they did value what they owned, then they would be concerned about "holding on to it" instead of letting it go.

[-] 1 points by gestopomillyy (1695) 7 years ago

wrong.. they have no job to pay the bills. doesnt matter what you owe as long as you have a job so you can pay. when 14 million jobs are eliminated.. people go broke. nothing to do with lifestyle.

[-] 1 points by Puzzlin (2898) 7 years ago

SO, Steam Crow, you blame ALL the poor dumb lazy Americans for the economic disaster we ALL find ourselves in currently.

Are you saying there's plenty of jobs?

Answer the question Troll. Or you stupidity will be blightly clear to all of us here. I want just the facts and no more whistling dixie. You start your post attacking me and you will become a known troll here (as if your not now, lol). I want at least one fact with source from you since you clearly have posted none yet.

Go for it!

[-] 0 points by Stormcrow (11) 7 years ago

Alright why is the housing market in a slump? Why is the economy in a slump?

Because the vast majority of people in this country (mostly the x and y generation) spent themselves into submission and they couldn't afford their lifestyle.

Buying $300,000 houses, $45,000 SUV's, $11,000 credit card debt, wanting the latest greatest electronic devices all on a $75,000 income.

Todays society holds no value towards what they own and todays economy shows just that.

Now, that is not to say that a vast majority of people are responsible. There are jobs out for those who want to look. It may mean moving to another part of the country but hey, I lived in a tent and a camper for 5 years when I was looking for work.

BTW I didn't attack you - I just posted my opinion.

[-] 1 points by Puzzlin (2898) 7 years ago

You have stated not one fact in your misguided opinion. Maybe that's why it's misguided.

Yeah, it's just your opinion, but it doesn't go too very far when unsupported. Nobody here buys it. Take some effort I found it helps steer one towards the truth. Facts help, reliable sources. Just some friendly advice.

Take Care!

[-] 2 points by demcapitalist (977) 7 years ago

Everybody is broke because our entire economy was running on the borrowed money that the housing bubble created. You've heard of the fractional banking system? Ok well it wasn't running at the usual 10/1 it was running at 30/1 when the bubble popped. That giant sucking sound you heard as all the money went away is also referred to as deleveraging. Since America stopped making our own things we are dependent on economic bubbles to run our economy. The interest rates are near zero so that one won't work any more. The excess leverage banks were using has by necessity turned the other way. If you think R Paul's" kill the fed "will work --it won't. If you think Mitt will be able to turn things around, he won't. If you think firing a bunch of government workers will help it won't. Taxing the rich would help. A new tax policy that gives incentives to American manufacturing would help but none of it will be easy.

[-] 1 points by fucorporatemedia (451) 7 years ago

Because they are speculating on our necessities and pilfering from everyone!

They are driving up the cost of food, gas, heat, power....it is outrageous!!

We need to Demand an End to Speculating on our necessites! http://www.occupywallst.org/forum/we-need-to-demand-an-end-to-speculating-on-our-nec/

[-] 1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 7 years ago

Everyone is broke, as a result of the 1,001 corporate pick pockets, adding their monetary "entitlements" to everything we do.

This road leads back to one place. The one cabal, that tries to aggregate all of it, for nothing, but pure profit.

They will corrupt anything to further their aims. They will give back at the absolute minimums required by law.

There is but one place to point a finger.

OccupyWallStreet!!!!!

[-] 1 points by Marxlust (6) from New York City, NY 7 years ago

Don't blame your President, blame free trade, blame automation. It is impossible to have as many jobs as in the past, workers are not needed anymore but they have to be compensated by the capitalists, the group who gained from globalisation and global worker competition .

[-] 1 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 7 years ago

Rampant Consumerism

[-] 1 points by Farleymowat (415) 7 years ago

People spend too damn much. They buy now, pay later.

[-] 1 points by Farleymowat (415) 7 years ago

Everyone is broke because they spent too much money. Took out loans, and racked up credit cards. Bought an education that had no future in the marketplace. Bought toys, and new cars. Went out to eat too much. Ate too much prime rib.

[-] 1 points by gestopomillyy (1695) 7 years ago

people are broke because there are no jobs. stay focused

[-] 0 points by Farleymowat (415) 7 years ago

For some that is true, for some it is not.

[-] 1 points by Doc4the99 (591) from Washington, DC 7 years ago

because they're stupid, really stupid...

I say, go into banking or become a medical doctor... or maybe a computer programmer/ engineer or some sort of other engineer... if you can't do those things, then you're stupid and broke and not rich and part of the like the 60 percent that does not have a relevant graduate degree...and don't take out 100k loans to go to some dumb online university and then complain about student debt repayment because your PhD in basket weaving isn't paying out...

Also, if you're stupid stop having kids; kids will make you go broke -- quick... Also, don't get married, chicks are expensive... or divorced, divorces are expensive...

Follow those rules and you should at least be clearing 150k a year with minimal debts including min. student loans...

[-] 1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 7 years ago

Idiotic republican policies.

20 out of the last 30 years.

[-] 3 points by JoeTheFarmer (2654) 7 years ago

Actually the policies are created in congress and the Democrats have been in control of the congress for 53 of the last 67 years.

[-] 0 points by shoozTroll (17632) 7 years ago

It actually worked pretty good until the republicans screwed everything up about 30 years ago.

Now they just refuse to do their jobs.

Lazy unthinking bums that they are.

Boehner and McConnell should be fired on the spot.

[-] 3 points by JoeTheFarmer (2654) 7 years ago

Actually the Dems were in control from 1945 to 1995 and even then Clinton was in the White house until 2000 so I am not sure how the republicans could have been the cause. Then in 2008 the Dems had the House by a 2/3 margin, the Senate majority and the White House all at the same time. They had total control and did nothing except pass a 2,300 page health care bill and Dodd Frank. These two pieces of legislation are so burdensome to businesses that the third fastest growing job is Compliance Specialist.

Now the House and President both want a one year extension on the payroll tax cut for the lower and middle class and Harry Reid decided to put out his own bill that only lasts two months. That does not give businesses the certainty they need to make hiring decisions.

The thing is that Boehner and McConnell are on the same page as the president on the payroll tax issue. Reid also tabled several Jobs bills that were passed in the House. He did not even allow them out for debate. Talk about a bum.

[-] 1 points by JadedCitizen (4277) 7 years ago

I second that.

[-] 0 points by shoozTroll (17632) 7 years ago

Thanks.

They like to over complicate things here on the forum.

It really is that simple.

[-] 0 points by JadedCitizen (4277) 7 years ago

Keep it simple, shooz!

“Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication.”~Leonardo da Vinci

[-] 1 points by OurTimes2011 (377) from Arlington, VA 7 years ago

Republicans: "We want Obama to fail." For him to fail, you must also.

This is why you are broke.

[-] 0 points by mee44 (71) 7 years ago

Lack of willpower.

[-] 0 points by XXAnonymouSXX (455) 7 years ago

Funny thing is they keep saying unemployment is down. Wonder if that has anything to do with people being forced off of benefits or their benefits just drying up after 2 years of collecting them. Just sayin'.

[-] 0 points by April (3196) 7 years ago

I'm not sure "everyone" is broke exactly. But lower and middle classes have been put under alot of financial stress. Some of this is due to bad financial policies.

Elizabeth Warren explains it really well in this lecture.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akVL7QY0S8A&feature=relmfu

[-] 0 points by rickMoss (435) 7 years ago

Small thinking will get right were we are today - "in hell"

JOIN THE REVOLUTION Read “Common Sense 3.1” at ( http://www.revolution2.osixs.org )

FIGHT THE CAUSE - NOT THE SYMPTOM We don’t have to live like this. "Spread the News"

[-] 0 points by shoozTroll (17632) 7 years ago

Republicans don't like us having good jobs.

Nor do they like us keeping our money.

Teabaggers have raised my State taxes 100%.

Republicans can nothing but lie.

[-] 0 points by betuadollar (-313) 7 years ago

Everyone is broke because they fail to apply themselves.

[-] 2 points by badconduct (550) 7 years ago

Everyone is broke because every Government over spent, and now expects tax payers to foot the bill.

[-] 0 points by betuadollar (-313) 7 years ago

I don't think that is the answer OWS is looking for.

[-] 0 points by shoozTroll (17632) 7 years ago

One word.

Republicans.

[-] -1 points by BlueRose (1437) 7 years ago

Why have the rich gotten many times wealthier in this bad economy? The system is rigged for the rich at the expense of everyone else.

[-] 3 points by JenLynn (692) 7 years ago

Most of the rest of us owe money, those that don't can let their money grow, what's the mystery? Most people don't even know they are being counted as "broke" just by having a mortgage bigger then their savings.

[-] 1 points by Stormcrow (11) 7 years ago

It's because of the "American Greed" - you know, greedy Americans - Americans who took advantage of other Americans. That's todays society "no loyalty towards this country anymore"

[-] 1 points by MichaelB (128) 7 years ago

It's certainly rigged against anyone foolish enough to trap themselves in debt with credit cards, auto loans and mortgages they can't afford.

[-] 0 points by BlueRose (1437) 7 years ago

Is that what you have to say? Blame the poor consumer?

[-] 1 points by MichaelB (128) 7 years ago

Depends, victim of some mortgage fraud, not your fault. Lost your job to outsourcing or cuts, not your fault. There are a lot of ways it's just circumstance or being victimized.

Upside down on car loans because you buy a new car every other year, buy all kinds of crap on credit and pay the minimum, tried to buy a house on spec to flip just before the bubble burst, then it's your fault. You're not victim in that case you're just foolish.

[-] 0 points by XXAnonymouSXX (455) 7 years ago

Great question. Seems extremely fishy to me that these pigs get fatter and fatter as the economy gets slimmer and slimmer. The pigs disgust me.

[-] -1 points by justhefacts (1275) 7 years ago

The question is...can you PROVE-with evidence-FACTS- that the middle and lower classes have "LOST" the exact same amount-in direct proportion to-the amount of "wealth" gained by the rich in this bad economy?

You cannot say that the "rich" stole something that the poor/middle class never had in their possession. You can make assumptions, accusations, and insinuations about what "might have been" or "could have been" until you are blue in the face...that doesn't make any of it true.

The entire system may very well be rigged in FAVOR of the rich-and you might even be able to PROVE that. What I want to know is if you can PROVE to me that their wealth has come "at the expense of everyone else".

[-] 2 points by MichaelB (128) 7 years ago

Not sure they care, blaming the rich is just easy. Some of the economic problems faced are caused by people getting themselves in too deep. It's not the fault of a bank or corporation.

[-] 0 points by BlueRose (1437) 7 years ago

How Reaganomics Destroyed The Middle Class...And Maybe America http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z5CCRI1vdwE

Two Santa Clauses or How The Republican Party Has Conned America for Thirty Years http://www.commondreams.org/view/2009/01/26-0

[-] 1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 7 years ago

Reagan didn't like America much.

Especially if you disagreed with him.

Look what he did to divorce and free education.

[-] 1 points by BlueRose (1437) 7 years ago

What did he do to divorce? I know he hated the mentally ill too though.

[-] 1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 7 years ago

He enacted the "no fault" divorce for his Hollywood buddies.

Judges no longer had to judge, and lawyers make easy money on them now. It's all cut and dried.

[-] 0 points by HarryPairatestes2 (380) from Barrow, AK 7 years ago

He signed the bill but he did not enact the legislation for no fault divorce in California.

[-] 1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 7 years ago

The same could be said about Clinton and NAFTA.

Except the republicans designed NAFTA.

[-] 0 points by justhefacts (1275) 7 years ago

I'm sorry. Two opinion pieces do not constitute facts to me.

[-] 0 points by BlueRose (1437) 7 years ago

I am not gonna write a book for you here. Why don't you tell me something like, "Thanks, I will research more myself". I doubt you will do a darn thing but parrot GOP lines.

[-] 0 points by justhefacts (1275) 7 years ago

I've done plenty of research. But thanks for assuming everything about me. You didn't need to write a book for me here, but I'm fairly certain that just repeating what someone else says (such as those two authors) is the very definition of "parroting". Isn't it?

[-] 0 points by BlueRose (1437) 7 years ago

Then REFUTE what I said.

[-] -1 points by justhefacts (1275) 7 years ago

YOU chose to make a claim-"The system is rigged for the rich at the expense of everyone else."

The BURDEN of proving that claim to be fact/truth lies with you, not me. I asked if you could PROVE-with evidence-that what the rich have gained came directly at the expense of everyone else. Giving me the opinions of two people, or a hundred, who are expressing their own personal bias on the issue doesn't qualify as "proof" in my book.

[-] -1 points by forOWS (161) 7 years ago

The jobs are being held hostage by the Republican obstructionists. The President has a jobs bill that is not even being considered by the GOP. Stop watching Fox News and you will learn more instead of less. So your statement here should read...where are the jobs Republicans?

[-] 0 points by Misfit138 (172) 7 years ago

Poor, blind, partisan hack. Your precious Obama won't allow new jobs to be opened in the gas and oil industry which only helps America, but keep crying about his "jobs" bill.

[-] 1 points by forOWS (161) 7 years ago

Poor Misfit. You want an oil pipeline going through the largest source of fresh water in America. And you think that jobs will rain down on everyone with a pipeline alone? You are the idiot partisan hack, you dumbass.

[-] 0 points by Misfit138 (172) 7 years ago

Such a comeback, but the pipeline is not the only way in which Obama is hindering energy here. Going further into debt to create temporary jobs is not the kind of sustained growth we need. Saying that we want off of mid-east oil while suppressing any efforts to do so only plays to the kool-aid drinkers (yourself) who so willingly buy into anything they are told so long as the speaker has a (D) behind their name. Didn't Obama just sign some more trade agreements that will help ship more jobs out of the country? But how could that be when he said he wanted to repeal NAFTA as such trade deals hurt us? Could it be that he is just another big money politician that plays to the useful idiots as he knows they will always support him because of his party?

Principles before party

[-] -1 points by justhefacts (1275) 7 years ago

How many times does the White House have to tell you "We don't create jobs" before you actually LISTEN to them?

[-] -1 points by Gillian (1842) 7 years ago

Everyone talks about the need for jobs as if that is the solution to our problems. I'm not dismissing the horror of being unemployed at all. However, being employed only allows someone to consume more often in our broken system of cheap goods and services and corrupt financial industries. Just for an example, I'll use my own experiences as a reference:

I need a credit card/credit to establish and maintain a FICO score in order to purchase a home or car or finance anything. Yet, I am forced to use that card even when I don't want or need to because if the banks don't make enough money from me, then they close the account or they raise the interest rate or they reduce my credit limit. i'm between a rock and a hard place. If I pay off my credit card every month, they close my account. Everyone tells us to be debt free and yet, they don't want us to be debt free because they make no money if we are debt free.

I cannot receive the many tax deductions that home owners do because I rent. For instance, I give a lot of my money to families who are struggling, to charities, to homeless shelters for equipment and such and yet, I get not a single tax credit for that because I don't own a home. This is just another manipulation to encourage people to buy homes ( and there are tax credits for those who have kids too- which I don't have). The more assets you have , the more of an asset you are to industry and wall street. It's the wealthy that get the breaks, not the responsible average Joe.

The goods that are being sold to us today are designed poorly, manufactured poorly, and they are not built to last. Years ago, you could feel relatively confident that your money was being well spent. Today, we are once again forced to choose between the lesser of evils when it comes to buying anything because it's ALL junk. That means the value of our earned dollar is pretty small compared to what it was even 20 years ago. If you were to buy a TV 30 years ago, it was built to last ( without repairs) for probably another 20 or 30 years. I have purchased 3 washing machines in 4 years because they all broke down and were too expensive to repair. It was cheaper just to buy another one and this is true for many items we use. Cars for example- you can't just go to a junk yard and pick up a tail light anymore for ten dollars. You must buy the entire fixture and have it installed. My rear window button doesn't work and it will cost me 600 dollars to repair that. The button has been used maybe 10 times since I've owned the car.

Which then brings to mind services that we are forced to purchase in order to use the cheap goods that we buy. I'm forced to pay for cable- a service that I had no intention of ever needing or desiring. But, I must have it now or I can't even watch my local news. Products like TV's are now designed so that if you have an older model, you must purchase other hardware to make it work. My point being that technology has not led to more efficiency or less waste. In fact, it has created an opportunity for corps to gouge the consumer on many levels- not to mention the fact that most of it ends up in the ocean or landfills.

We work longer hours which means we spend more money eating in restaurants ( in general) which cost more than preparing your own food. The food you buy is less quality today and costs much more which leads to poor health which fuels healthcare costs and puts lots of money in health related corps. But, in an event, we work longer and actually earn less than ever before. Our wages are not aligned with the increase in the cost of living. On paper, I'm earning more than I was in 1990. But, if I really look at what I'm paying out vs. my net income, I'm earning MUCH LESS!

Think of all the money and time wasted day after day on shoddy product repairs, replacing shoddy items, calling companies to complain, etc.... A dollar here, 5 there...it adds up and these are expenses that my grandparents didn't have. They could trust that if they spent money on something that it would be worth it and that if anything was wrong, there was someone personally accountable who would make it right.

We are broke because we succumb to direct to consumer advertising from many sources that tell us that we need this, need that. We are told that we need computers to make our businesses more efficient and yet, it's proven that computers have not increased productivity and have actually led to more wasted time in our homes and the workplace. I get far less work done in a day than I did ten years ago. Yet, I'm constantly stressed, overworked and underpaid. But, they also tell me they have a pill for those conditions too.

What do you have to show for all you're hard earned money? Probably not anything that has any real value. We are living an illusion. Our quality of our life and our relationships is significantly lower than ever before and we the most unhealthy humans in the industrialized world.

If we supported our local small businesses, we would have more accountability for the products we purchase but corp america has discouraged us from supporting local farmers and small shoppes by providing cheaper goods from big box retailers. People really believe that they can't afford an extra 2 dollars for something at a local shoppe and yet they are willing to waste more money buying something that needs replacing in a few days, weeks or months. The illusion works for big gov and big industry and big pharma and big insurance, Wall street. But, it doesn't work for us as the individual. When the market is doing well, it's also an illusion. We are buying more junk more often than ever. That waste is what keeps the economy moving. But, people are tired of wasting their money and spending less. The other thing is that when people spend on credit, it falsely inflates the market and is no true indicator of economic security or success. This is why Bushanomics failed. He encouraged us to spend, spend, spend and he rewarded us for doing so with tax rebates. But, that's what parents do to spoiled children and then the children grow up not knowing the value of anything or respecting anything. And, so here we are. C'est la vie.

[-] 3 points by MsStacy (1035) 7 years ago

Not sure I'll be able to say this right, without offending, but I'll try, I mean no offense, but because you are using yourself as an example it may be difficult to say right. You need to put some thought into things. I pay my cards off every month, never carry a balance, pay no fees, collect the cash rewards ($250 this year), and get offerers just about every day for more cards. I don't use cash much at all, maybe $5 a month, credit card for everything. My banks have never even hinted at dropping me.

I have no idea what my credit score is. It must be ok, last car I got was at 0%. Shopped and researched on line for a new car and then went to dealers to see who would come closest to my price.

Check out reviews before buying things. I've had the same washer and dryer for a dozen years, maybe just luck but it could be the research helped too. Same with local businesses, no point in paying more for poor quality goods or service. Cheat me once and I'm done with them.

Phone line and DSL I can use the internet for my news. If your charity contributions are causing you too much financial pain cut back a bit. Food choices are a difficult trade off, you can shop around the outer edge of the store, fresh produce, meats, dairy and cooking takes time. Processed foods or eating out and you have your health risks or greater expense, but it is a choice we make.

Things outside of our direct control like tax rates and tax reform, we have to work on through the system to change and make things more equitable. Last thing you probably want to do is to spend because someone suggests it. It is your money, decide what you need and what you want to spend. We can't expect someone else to look out for us.

[-] 0 points by Gillian (1842) 7 years ago

No offense taken at all Ms. Stacy and I know there are lots of folks out there who are on the better side of the fence. I'm not poor by any means but I've been gouged and screwed by so many corps that I'm completely fed up. The difference is that I'm self employed for one thing and I don't own a home. It's not that I can't afford a home, it's that we need to stay as mobile as possible and we don't want to be hinged to a mortgage right now. Plus, our rent is SO ridiculously low that we can save lots of money. I've never had credit card debt and I really tried to use them at least once a month and pay that off every month but without any warning at all, TWO of my cards were closed last January. I remember Suze Orman warning folks about this unethical bank practice but I really truly didn't believe that this would happen to me. I always research and review before I buy anything at all but even so, there is a serious issue with incompetent manufacturing that leads to unnecessary costs, higher prices, higher losses to the companies selling the products, unnecessary staffing to resolve the issues, etc... and other annoyances. Did you hear about the Boeing incident and how much they lost last year due to shoddy manufacturing? They pass those costs onto others.
When I speak of needing news, I mean live, to the minute, local news because I live on the coast and we are in hurricane territory. Both business and personal safety are at risk without those up to the minute updates. The washing machine incident is not uncommon and I do hope you don't need one anytime soon. Read the reviews. i spent a good 3 months reviewing and would even stop folks on the street or at the store and ask them if they liked their washer and still ended up with expensive junk. And by the way, those front loaders apparently need to be cleaned on a regular basis with a special cleaner ( I bought the top loading machine). Before my recent washer purchase I was using my old GE washer from 1985 and it worked great. But, I thought it was time to upgrade to a larger basket and oh boy do I wish I had kept my old washer. WHen they delivered the new washer and dryer, I made them turn them on to make sure they worked and guess what? The dryer didn't work at all. That's the kind of waste and aggravation I'm talking about. Someone was paid to build that machine, ship it, deliver it and install it and it's a piece of junk that doesn't even work and then someone needs to be paid to repair it and restock it or recycle it. The natural resources alone that were used to bring that piece of junk to market was a total waste.
I don't eat out and I pack any food that I need to travel with but I'm a minority compared to my friends.
My charitable contributions are made from my heart and I don't want a tax deduction or expect one. I do what I do because I'm a humanitarian. But, even if I wanted a deduction I can't get one because I don't own a home which seems ridiculous and all three of my accountants have told me this. My point was that the perks seem to be available to only those who have secured assets. I guess that just seems unfair to me.
Lastly, I don't buy anything because someone suggests I do it. My point was that the value of our dollar is so low today because it's not holding it's value in the products we purchase. I'm not a trendy chick who needs to keep up with the Jones' but I would like to feel that when I spend my money, I'm getting value. Maybe I'm just older and know a different America.

[-] 1 points by MsStacy (1035) 7 years ago

I can understand the bank's position if you don't use the cards at all. Much of what the bank gets comes from fees on the merchants. With on income at all they see you only as a liability, unfortunate but true.

Are you talking about the Boeing plant in Philadelphia? Last I heard about that they were investigating it as possible sabotage, 100 workers were let go over that and there was a major investigation. Yes costs always get passed on, most corporate wealth is in inventory, not piles of dollars sitting in an office somewhere, as a business owner you would know that of course.

[-] 1 points by Gillian (1842) 7 years ago

I used my cards every month for things like gasoline so that I could keep better record of my expenses. But, I always paid off the balance or left a small amount like 20 dollars on there ( as per Suze Orman's advice) so that they would not close my account. BUT, when I decided to pay off my balances in December, they closed my accounts without any warning at all. So, when I say that I was being forced to use my card, that is what I was referring to. This apparently happened to quite a few folks.
Not the Boeing issue in PA but the issue at the plant out in CA I believe. They were building the Boeing 787 ( latest model) and all the parts that came in were defective because they had outsourced without any supervision or quality control. SO, they had to get all those parts made again and absorb the billions of dollars in losses. Maybe that is why they laid off the employees? They were already billions of dollars over budget for that ' dreamliner'.
I haven't really had to pass on higher costs to my customers except when fuel prices were so high and even then I only added a surcharge to their invoices. Fortunately, I'm extremely blessed to have customers who empathize with the struggles we face as a small business and some of my customers have even offered suggestions to how we can offset some of the higher costs associated with operations and some even send us more money than is due! Crazy, eh? I guess they love us :D Even so, it's tough and getting tougher for small business and really, it's mostly due to the tax burdens- especially in my commonwealth. The State taxes and fees are outrageous.

[-] 0 points by justhefacts (1275) 7 years ago

Your accountants are either lying to you, or there is a miscommunication. You do NOT have to own a home to deduct your charitable contributions. You need receipts to prove the giving.

http://www.irs.gov/newsroom/article/0,,id=251223,00.html?portlet=108 "Under current law, taxpayers who itemize deductions may deduct the value of contributions they make to qualifying charitable organizations up to a maximum of 50 percent of adjusted gross income in any year."

If you own a business then you almost certainly itemize your taxes and if you itemize-you can deduct your charitable donations. I've deducted my charitable giving every year of my life that I've had to pay taxes, and I didn't always own a home.

[-] 1 points by Gillian (1842) 7 years ago

Thanks for the info. I'll address this issue again with my accountant. It could be the way that my corp is structured or the way that I give to charities. Not sure at this point.

[-] 1 points by justhefacts (1275) 7 years ago

Why do you assume we all define "broke" the same way? According to my definition of it, not EVERYONE is broke. I've spent the past 5 years focusing on how to NEVER be "broke" again. I'm not aiming for "rich". I'm aiming for SECURE. Once I started taking charge of my own financial security, I found out there are millions of people using basic math and reading skills to figured out how to get out of debt and stay out of it. These people are not "rich", they are secure.

Everything in your post seems to be phrased to purposefully reflect a "victim's" point of view. As if you've been FORCED to do certain things:

"I can't write off my charitable offerings on my taxes".

Wrong. You are not FORCED to accept the standard tax deduction. If the charitable giving you are doing is greater than the standard "deduction", all you have to do is itemize on your taxes. You do NOT need to own a home to itemize. (I itemized even when I WAS "broke")

"I HAVE to have an active credit card in order to establish and maintain a FICO score so I can purchase a home, a car etc." Nope. Your FICO score is NOT entirely dependent upon credit card payment history-it encompasses 7 years of your work history, past performance on ANYTHING you made payments on for 3+ months (including store "credit" cards offered from merchants, utility payments and even rent if your landlord chooses to release your ontime payment history to the credit bureaus.

If you saved up the "lot of money" you give to others for a year and made a sizeable down payment on a home, depending on your work/income history, you'd get a good rate on a mortgage without a good FICO score. (I cut up my credit cards years ago because I was tired of being "broke and in debt"...so my FICO score probably tanked. I have no idea because I don't care what it is anymore. They no longer "own" me and I'm no longer "broke")

"My credit card companies FORCE me to buy stuff or they raise their interest rates."

When I used credit cards (which I no longer do) if they threatened to raise my rates or close the account because it was paid off, I called and told them I was leaving and WHY. They either backed down in order to keep me as THEIR customer instead of someone else, or I ditched them for another company. If yours won't, get cards from a company who does things the way you want them done. (You said yourself they want you broke-so get rid of them)

"I'm FORCED to pay for a cable service in order to watch my local news".

Nope. You are CHOOSING to watch your local news on television. You HAVE other choices-Take the local paper. Ask a neighbor who takes the paper if you can read it when they are done. You obviously have a computer-read it on the internet. Listen to it on the radio. (When I was broke, I didn't have the money to pay for cable)

Dave Ramsey has a program called "Financial Peace" that will turn your life around. If you WANT to turn it around. Some people are just more comfortable fulfilling their own worst fears.

[-] 1 points by Gillian (1842) 7 years ago

Thanks for your input and I do understand your point of view but I can assure you that the economic climate that we're living in today doesn't even compare to that of 5 years ago in terms of CC companies negotiating. Read my recent post above. Perhaps it will help explain my situation in more detail and make sense. For one thing, I'm self employed and NO I cannot get a tax deduction for charitable contributions. However, the tax credit isn't my motivation for giving as I do. It's just that it seems truly ridiculous and unfair to penalize someone who doesn't have secured assets. I've never been in debt and never had credit card debt other than the small monthly amount that I paid off each month or at the most, two months. But, I got screwed royally by Wells Fargo and BB&T. Oh, and here's a good one...One of my business loans was with Wells Fargo and I paid every month on my account on time and then one day I went to pay and I was a day late and they locked me out of my account so that I could not pay them unless I called them. THEN they told me that I had to pay them and additional 15.00 for a phone transaction in addition to the late fee. When I refused, they didn't budge. It didn't matter at all that I was only one day late or that I had paid on time for the past two years. So, I have been locked out of my account ever since and I mail them their durn payment. No biggie but that's just an example of how these companies treat people. BB&T: I wanted to purchase a truck with some savings/cash from different bank account but I needed a paper trail since it was a company purchase. So, I needed to deposit that cash into my BBT account and then write a check to the dealer which I did at 10am that morning. The next thing I discover is that BBT suddenly charges me a 600 dollar overdraft fee for that one check. WHY? Well, because even though I deposited CASH in there that morning, they hold funds for 36 hours and on a large amount, they charge a ten percent overdraft charge. I raised cain in the worst way in that bank and they didn't budge. Can you imagine how furious I was? I took ALL my business elsewhere to a small local bank and BBT charged me a 100 dollar fee for closing my account. I reported them to the FTC and their regulator which took about 5 months of almost constant attention but I finally did get my money back. I don't know how you would have felt about that but I have better things to do with my time than to pursue justice from a corrupt banking practice.

[-] 0 points by justhefacts (1275) 7 years ago

Again, YOU as a taxpayer CAN deduct your charitable giving. You as a BUSINESS may not be able to. Home ownership has nothing to do with deducting charitable donations. All you have to do is itemize on your taxes. Period.

Almost ALL companies-including public utilities etc-charge a phone transaction when you pay by phone. Even if only one day late. Late is LATE. Your loan papers informed you that "late was late" and what the resulting actions would be. if that contract explained that they would freeze your account and apply fees and YOU SIGNED it, you have no right to complain. If you have no assets, then you can't get a "secured loan" because you own no collateral. And unsecured loans have RIGID restriction for a reason. They only have your "word" that you'll repay them, and do it on time.

With the truck, if you needed a paper trail so badly, why did you move the money "in cash" from one bank to the other? Why not use a cashier's check from one bank to the next? Or at least a cashier's check from the second bank to the dealer? Both would have created a more solid paper trail. Why didn't the dealer call your bank to see if the check would clear? A smart dealer would before handing you keys to the car. Most checks take a couple of days to clear in the first place...why did the dealer's check go through so fast?

My point here is that without all the details, I can't know if the banking system actually WAS corrupt in your case.

[-] 1 points by Gillian (1842) 7 years ago

PS, just to let you know.....that unless you're dealing with a really small time mom and pop store, checks are processed much like CC today. In other words, even though the actual funds may not get deducted immediately from your account, when the check is put through the register for approval, the funds are allocated and are applied against your checking acct. balance which helps prevent excessive overdraft and theft. In some cases, actually in many cases, retailers and restaurants use a machine that automatically creates an ACH debit from your account and they will hand the check back to you. It's really no different than using a debit card. It's rare anymore that it takes days for a check to clear.
Retailers like myself either post the CC/debit/ or ACH charge at the time of purchase OR they can choose to have all funds deposited as a batch at the end of the day or week. But, not many small companies opt for that batch method since they would prefer to have their money available asap.

[-] 1 points by Gillian (1842) 7 years ago

I am the corporation in terms of tax structure. I'm not complaining about Wells Fargo charging me a late fee. That was my fault. What I think is horribly wrong is to prevent someone from being able to pay their bill online simply because they were a day late ONE TIME! They only do that force someone to call them so they can charge a pay by phone fee. But, a day late is no different than 5 days late so I mailed them their payment. Even so, I've never been allowed to access my account online since. VERY unfriendly business practice. I would think they would like me to have that convenience to pay.

Why pay for a cashier's check ( 12 dollars) when I'm carrying the cash and depositing it right away in my business checking account? Cash is cash. I deposited the cash first thing that morning and 2 hours later wrote a check from my bus. checking to the dealership. I wanted a picture of that check on my monthly statement as it makes my book keeping much easier and provides more detail for my accountant since I keep notes in the memo. The dealer called the bank that morning to confirm that the funds were available and the bank approved the check despite the fact that it was 5,000 dollars over my overdraft protection. They obviously knew that the money was in my account because I only have 1,000 dollar overdraft protection on my account which meant that anything over 1,000 dollars should have been returned unpaid. Normally, there was a 36.00 overdraft fee per check but they said that since this was such a large amount that they had to take ten percent. I was extremely angry at them for holding my cash for 36 hours as well as approving a check that was 5,000 dollars over my limit. What if I had been a crook? During the investigation, that point was brought to the table as well and yes, they were guilty and many sued BBT for this same corrupt practice. I didn't sue, I just wanted my money back but it took an enormous amount of time and hassle to get it. The crazy thing is that the BBT manager was like a complete robot and lacked any commonsense or desire to inquire about reversing those charges. A couple of years later I had to return to BBT for some other business and I was talking to their manager and when he asked me why I left BBT and I told him my story, he could not believe what they did and even reviewed the transaction in my history. Then he assured me that if he had been there, that would have never happened. Yeah, right, whatever! Too little too late. By the way, this all happened in Oct. of ' 08 when the market crashed.

[-] 0 points by badconduct (550) 7 years ago

I used to own a '95 Pontiac Sunfire. The thing fell apart every which way possible, always the stupidest problems too. Lights always on in the dash, the engine bay layout was a mess, you couldn't even change the spark plug wires without lifting the car, yuk.

I got a good deal on a fairly old 1986 Porsche 944. Needed break work, exhaust rusted eventually, changed the belts... you know; maintenance. 90% of the work I could do myself.

I'll never buy another GM.

[-] 0 points by Gillian (1842) 7 years ago

I never purchased American made cars years ago when they were actually American made. I preferred the more economical, quality Japanese or German made cars. But, today, nothing is what it says it is unless you purchase Volvo, VW, porsche or Mercedes. I'm not even sure that Mercedes engineering is the same???? VW's are assembled in Mexico. So who knows what you're getting. Why are VW's not assembled in America?

[-] 0 points by badconduct (550) 7 years ago

Labour costs, I imagine. Each US employee is worth the same as a mexican employee, + 100% interest on the dollar, +high taxes

[-] 0 points by shoozTroll (17632) 7 years ago

I love my 04 Ranger.

Not one problem.

[-] -1 points by turak (-812) 7 years ago

Now that you have correctly diagnosed the problem: what are you going to do about it? Nothing? Give up before even trying. Oooooh. Gee, what an intelligent answer. See a problem? Analyze the problem, Diagnose the problem and then do nothing. Stop right there

Your problem is yourself. You already gave up before you diagnosed the problem. You are missing something called a human will to action. You have no desire to do anything about any problem. You have no interest in solving any problem.

I can give you the solution to your problem, But if I do: then you won't have EARNED it.

I can analyze the problem better than you can and with that better analysis, I can give you the answer to your problems.

But if I do that:... you will act like a spoiled child and throw away the solution because you are ALSO a spoiled baby, just like all the other spoiled babies who don't even try to do anything after they have correctly analyzed and diagnosed the problem.

You're stuck in a vicious cycle of always giving up before you even try. to do anything. You're stuck in a rut of hopelessness and resignation and apathy.

[-] 0 points by Gillian (1842) 7 years ago

Sounds like you may have a guilty conscience because it's not me who is acting or sounding like a spoiled child. Obviously, I was answering the question. But, I do make a conscious choice ( as much as I'm allowed) to live a lifestyle that doesn't support wasteful gluttony, environmental degradation, unfair trade. I don't need your advice. What I would prefer is for you to vote with your dollars in a way that commands quality vs quantity and that supports America's backbone of American workers.

[-] 0 points by turak (-812) 7 years ago

wrong: you're not acting at all you're doing nothing about it remaining a consumer is doing nothing about the problem of 6.8 billion consuming apes destroying the earth they live on.
Using dollars is adding to the problem.
Voting is a waste of time.
You never will get fair trade.
In fact trade is one of fthe basic root evils of the entire system.

You were not answering anything: you were analyzing the problem> nothing else.

Analyzing a problem is not doing something about a problem. Nor is it solving a problem.

The fact is you don't even WANT to know the solution to all your problems.

You don't want to know how to solve anything because you don't want to DO anything.

I am sick of your illogical shit. If you can't tell the difference between analyzing a problem and finding the solution to the problem you're not worth talking to.

[-] 1 points by Gillian (1842) 7 years ago

Have you been reading Buber lately? Never mind, silly question.

[-] 0 points by turak (-812) 7 years ago

Is that how you show to the world how mature and grownup you are? Regressing to the level of a child is a defense against facing reality. Do you want to spend the rest of your life sucking on your thumb? And what's worse: you're not even ashamed of it. I told you you're not worth talking to and what do you do? You prove I'm right. In public, so everyone can see you turn into a baby.. With all the world watching as you try to pull your infantile shit on the internet. Stay in your regressed state of idiocy and don't pretend you are a rational mature human being because you're not.

[-] 1 points by Gillian (1842) 7 years ago

Turak, you are one hilarious dude! Big hugs and Happy Holidays to you and your family. I'm sure you keep them smiling on their toes.

[-] 0 points by turak (-812) 7 years ago

Comedy is also an escape from reality. You can't escape your own life and you can't escape truth. It will hunt you down no matter how you twist and turn and run from it.

[-] -1 points by TrevorMnemonic (5827) 7 years ago

Watch Inside Job and you will understand a lot more.

Obama is a fraud!!!

Wall Street's takeover of the Obama administration is now complete. "The mega-banks and their corporate allies control every economic policy position of consequence. Mr. Obama has moved rapidly since the November debacle to install business people where it counts most. Mr.William Daley from JP Morgan Chase as White House Chief of Staff. Mr. Gene Sperling from the Goldman Sachs payroll to be director of the National Economic Council. Eileen Rominger from Goldman Sachs named director of the SEC's Investment Management division. Even the National Security Advisor, Thomas Donilon, was executive vice president for law and policy at the disgraced Fannie Mae after serving as a corporate lobbyist with O'Melveny & Roberts. The keystone of the business friendly team was put in place on Friday. General Electric Chairman and CEO Jeffrey Immelt will serve as chair of the president's Council on Jobs and Competitiveness."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/michael-brenner/barack-obama-out-of-the-c_b_813027.html

He's bombed more countries than Bush. Libya, Pakistan, Yemen, Afghanistan... etc

He extended the Bush tax cuts.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20026069-503544.html

He never actually closed guantanamo bay.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/guantanamo-bay-how-the-white-house-lost-the-fight-to-close-it/2011/04/14/AFtxR5XE_story.html

He lied about ending the wars in Iraq and the current withdrawal was scheduled by the Bush administration. And there is a billion dollar military base in Iraq and I guarantee you that it aint empty.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/26/obama-iraq_n_1032507.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUTYL8HfCGo

He supported the bailouts of banking institutions that are extracting wealth from our country and stealing people's pensions and homes. The bailout money was used by the federal reserve to create 7.7 trillion dollars out of thin air, and Obama has yet to do anything about it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9BXPINPwp4w

He also supported the patriot act, which essentially deletes the 4th amendment.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vqXmQYHV-1I

He's started unconstitutional acts of war against Libya, which he spoke out against when Bush did that to Iraq.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6pVo7-gOkqo

Obama signed for the indefinite detention of US citizens without trial into law under provisions of the NDAA and "designates the world as the battlefield and that includes the homeland." -quote senator Lindsey Graham who supported the bill and argued in it's favor.

http://www.hrw.org/news/2011/12/14/us-refusal-veto-detainee-bill-historic-tragedy-rights

http://www.salon.com/2011/12/15/obama_to_sign_indefinite_detention_bill_into_law/

"The killing of al-Qaeda chief Osama bin Laden in Pakistan and the threats posed by al Qaeda cells in Yemen and Africa underscore the evolving and continuing nature of the terrorist threat to the United States. The Conference Report ensures the United States will have the ability to meet this threat and neutralize terrorists from these groups and conduct effective interrogations."

http://armedservices.house.gov/index.cfm/files/serve?File_id=23d194d7-78c9-4c57-b2d9-31bc3bb7daeb

List of terrorist organizations our country could start war with and the countries they're in.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_designated_terrorist_organizations

"This [the National Defense Authorization Act of 2011] designates the WORLD as the battlefield... and that includes the homeland."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fzFygkHgi34

Next stop Africa and Yemen!!! Maybe Iran or Syria next? Fulfill that cold war with some Operation Northwoods and go to war with Russia? Who knows? It's the government. It's a threat to national security to tell you the truth all the time.Maybe China a few years from now?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/obama-heads-to-asia-with-sharp-focus-on-chinas-growing-power/2011/11/10/gIQAOsQkBN_story.html

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/44/post/obama-us-to-send-250-marines-to-australia-in-2012/2011/11/16/gIQAO4AQQN_blog.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=01-2pNCZiNk

“We suggest a distinctive tactic for breaking up the hard core of extremists who supply conspiracy theories: cognitive infiltration of extremist groups, whereby government agents or their allies (acting either virtually or in real space, and either openly or anonymously) will undermine the crippled epistemology of believers by planting doubts about the theories and stylized facts that circulate within such groups, thereby introducing beneficial cognitive diversity.” -Cass R Sunstein, Administrator of the White House Office of Information and Regulatory Affairs in the Obama administration.

Oh and don't forget about this Hour long presentation in congress about Al Qaeda members being the Libyan rebels, as well as extremists, rapists, and murderers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-G0pUEU603Q&list=FLEwSllwonAZBCc7W3e27_dQ&index=42&feature=plpp_video

In case any of you don't like the first video because it's a republican, here is super Liberal Dennis Kucinich railing against Al Qaeda in the rebels as well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSUnluGSOdM&list=FLEwSllwonAZBCc7W3e27_dQ&index=43&feature=plpp_video

And here is an article on the Libyan rebel leader admitting to having a bunch of Al Qaeda members in his "rebellion" which is actually just terrorism.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8407047/Libyan-rebel-commander-admits-his-fighters-have-al-Qaeda-links.html

And to all the remaining Obama fans, please don't try and accuse me of being in favor of Newt Gingrich or tell me some story about McCain Palin. My criticism for Obama is simply based on facts and in no way means I support a GOP agenda. Obama is a fraud and so is Newt Gingrich.

[-] 1 points by Teamster (102) 7 years ago

I agree with some things you say but I could write something this long about bush, ron paul and newt. I could probably do it about most presidents in the past and most that ran. So what's the answer?? Unfortunately it just is about picking the lesser of 2 evils. If anyone has an answer please let me know.

[-] 1 points by TrevorMnemonic (5827) 7 years ago

The sad thing is you can totally do this about most presidents. And that's really fucked up to think about. The George W Obama administrations are completely corrupt. Write something this long and this fucked up about Ron Paul. You'll probably tell me he wants to force Christianity on everyone even though his voting history shows otherwise. Then you'll say something about the John Birch society and say he has some weird agenda even though his voting history and his speeches say otherwise. That's the stuff most people who don't like Ron Paul post. Please post it though. I can always know more. Most bad thins people say about Ron Paul is in reference to his cuts. And most people have to know his stance is that "it's not a federal issue, it's a state issue." He has no problem with a state implementing programs that he cuts on a federal level.

I support Ron Paul because I support Dennis Kucinich. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=py8cXlLyX18

I'm still hoping a real democrat will oppose Obama in 2012 but outlook doesn't look good. I'm just voting for the guy who isn't corrupt.

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 7 years ago

Q : "So what's the answer??"

A : O.W.S. and Revolujah !!!

Agitate ; Educate ; Orgainse ...

coz ... Resistance Is Fertile !!

per ardua ad astra ...~~~*

[-] 0 points by Teamster (102) 7 years ago

Why is OWS gonna take a stand in the political world?? Are you going to back someone to run for president?? No. So you didn't answer me at all. Join OWS but you still have to chose between the lesser of two evils come november.

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[-] 0 points by Teamster (102) 7 years ago

So who has OWS endorsed?

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[-] 1 points by Teamster (102) 7 years ago

Have you ever met a politician that did not accept money from big businesses. It takes money to run for office.

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[-] 1 points by Teamster (102) 7 years ago

Fine 1 guy 50 years ago who is no longer living who didn't even know he could get it from big businesses. Anyone in the last 50 years who is alive who knows they can take money who doesn't

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[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 7 years ago

Fair enough 'Teamster' but at some point the time frame has to move from merely 'The Next Election', to a longer 10 year plus perspective.

In 3 months OWS has moved the political discourse and awareness forwards massively (imho!). Your "lesser of two evils" is apt but there's more of the same to come unless something starts to change from the grass roots upwards.

respice ; adspice ; prospice ...

(look to the past ; present ; future)

Happy Yuletide, Xmas ; Soltstice ; Hanukkah & New Year ;-)

[-] -2 points by turak (-812) 7 years ago

So what are you going to do about it?

I already knew almost everything you posted and more.

He gave 1.3 trillion dollars to the World bank.

Have you found any news media outlet that reported this>

What is more money? 1.3 trillion dollars, or the billions of bailouts that everyone is upset about? Why aren't people more upset about the 1.3 trillion than the billions? Why aren't people more upset about the trillion plus dollars missing from the Pentagon budget during Rumsfeld's term in office as secretary of defense? Why isn't there a lawsuit filed against him now?

Why do you allow crooks to leave office and not prosecute them after they've left office? There is no statute of limitation on any crime which protects any politician from being brought to court and charged after they've left office. But not one of you have the uts to do it. Why is that? You'd think out of 311 millioin people there would be ONE person who is angry enough to charge Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld for their crimes.

SO answer my question.

What are you going to do about it... nothing?

If you plan on doing NOTHING about anything...

then you shouldn't even have brought up the topic.

You should have kept your mouth SHUT.

Since you're already hard-wired to do NOTHING about anything: talking about anything is a total fucking WASTE OF TIME.

[-] 1 points by TrevorMnemonic (5827) 7 years ago

Most ignorant comment I've ever read. It's called sharing knowledge. You do know this fraud is running for president in 2012 right? My goal is sharing knowledge so people won't vote another fraud into the white house. Stop being ignorant.

[-] -1 points by turak (-812) 7 years ago

sharing knowledge is bullshit.

You can 'share' knowledge until you die: That will not solve anything.

Words without action is a waste of time.

Words not put into action is the stupidest waste of time there is.

You are politically NAIVE and uneducated. How many hundreds of years of elected officials being voted into office do you need? Read the history of the Roman Empire. They voted in their elected official for 1,00 fucking years. All that got them was ever-worsening corruption. Which is exactly what you will get when you vote anyone into office into a position of power. Your entire system> not just your political system, but your entire for-profit commercial culture of business and consumption is corrupt to the BONE.

The only intelligent answer: which is just a PARTIAL solution, was stated by governor Ventura. He not only disowned himself from both democratic and republican parties, he ran as an independent. After leaving office and refusing to run again as a professional politician... when asked if he would consider running as an independent for president he said unequivocally NO ... because he KNOWS that the political system is so corrupt and so rigged that ANY 3rd party would become just as corrupt as the rest of them by trying to work inside the corrupt system which already exists. The only political fix he recommends is to do away with ALL political parties period.

THAT MEANS DECENTRALIZATION OF ALL POLITICAL POWER : get it?

Do you see any power on Earth strong enough to not only oppose but DESTROY both democratic and republican parties and wipe them out??? I don't THINK so. That is not going to happen.

So how can this problem of centralized power and wealth be solved?

Easy: Create your own self-sufficient community AND GUARD IT WITH YOUR LIVES FROM ALL ATTACK OR INVASION from any outside power.

FIGHT for the land you live on. FIGHT for the freedom you want to keep. STAND UP AGAINST ALL AGGRESSORS who seek to destroy your autonomy AND ATTACK THEM AND KILL THEM.

But you little quivering non-violent sheep don't believe in fighting anymore. YOU believe sitting on your ass doing NOTHING will magically solve all your problems!

Well I've got news for you bud: You can sit on your ass in all the public places you want and that will not do SQUAT. You can sit on your ass and do nothing until you DIE and it will not solve anything..

If enough people LEAVE the entire system and create self-sufficient communities that have no leaders: the entire mess will FALL DOWN FOR LACK OF CONSUMERS TO BUY THE SHIT THEY MANUFACTURE

Once the financial and business world have no more customers: they will go BELLY UP

Once the filthy rich have no more chamber maids willing to work for them they will STARVE TO DEATH AND DIE OUT.

Opting out of the entire system is your only intelligent alternative.

That way you guarantee your own security with your own life. Anyone who tries to tax or rob you which is the same thing: you can kill with ease and nobody will bother you again. Why? Because if they try to kill all of you: then they won't be able to TAX you or rob you anymore: stupid, and right now, all people want is your MONEY... not your life.

When you become self-sufficient you won't need any money.

By becoming self-sufficient: you solve all of your problems: AND at the same time you spend your life creating a beautiful healthy happy community which you will live in and have NO WORRIES about the outside world because you will be tending to your own gardens and the rest of the capitalist system can't even TOUCH you.

[-] -2 points by danmi (66) 7 years ago

The reason why the Country is going belly up is because of Obama and his failed policies. He is a complete failure and cannot even give a speech to a first grade class without the use of a teleprompter.

[-] 0 points by badconduct (550) 7 years ago

I never liked Obama, from day one. He talked in a rhetoric. I knew nothing was going to change, you could tell he was all hype and substance. Going to fix this, going to make change, going makes lives better... never actually answered "how"

[-] 0 points by danmi (66) 7 years ago

Since 2008 he has done nothing but campaigned and divide the Country

[-] 0 points by shadz66 (19985) 7 years ago

Ohbummer ! It's more than just Obomber !! Hoewever, you're right about "the teleprompter" - Oblah-blah can't seem to squeak in public without one !!!

Q : "Why Is Everyone Broke??"

A : Because 'Trickle Down Capitalism' has now mutated into "Hoover Up Kaputalism" !!

Re. "Inside Job", I echo and ditto poster TM's recommendation & thus :

a) http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article28189.htm (but allow a minute for page to fully load ;

b) http://www.zerohedge.com/article/watch-inside-job-wall-street-horror-movie-free-0 &

c) http://occupywallst.org/forum/inside-job-documentary/ - esp. poster "teenager's" post !!

radix malorum est cupiditas ...

[-] 1 points by JenLynn (692) 7 years ago

The video at the other end of your links has been pulled.

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 7 years ago

Thanx 'Jen', unfortunately you are correct and sorry to anyone who has tried links a) and b) ... however I have just now successfully downloaded a complete copy to my own hard drive thanx to poster "teenager's" post, as per link c) above !! Good Luck !

[-] -1 points by demcapitalist (977) 7 years ago

Your so far off the mark it's not funny

[-] -2 points by danmi (66) 7 years ago

Sorry but your hero is one and done. His socialist regime plan is coming unraveled

[-] 0 points by demcapitalist (977) 7 years ago

He's not my hero and he's no socialist he's about as right wing as it gets -------------your not gonna get a functioning economy till you get some grasp of reality --------unless your just one of those vengeful types who doesn't really care about America

[-] 1 points by Misfit138 (172) 7 years ago

Obama is right-wing? Man, you must be so far left that you fell off the map to think that.

[-] 1 points by demcapitalist (977) 7 years ago

Let see Bush had X Goldman exec Hank Paulson running the treasury and that big left winger Obama has had these crazy socialist X-Goldman execs on his financial team Larry Summers Robert Rubin Gary Gensler, Mark Patterson Timothy Geithner Robert Hormats. Some of these guys go back to Greenspan's fed you know the guy Reagan put in charge of the fed the guy who changed the laws that caused this crisis. How many Goldman execs do you think Newt or Romney will fire? ----------you know and I know the answer is none. R Paul might fire a few Goldman execs.

[-] 1 points by Misfit138 (172) 7 years ago

That doesn't make him right wing, that makes him a corporatist. When he takes a hard stance against illegals, fights for less regulations on businesses and opposes public unions, then he will be right wing. If he opposes gay marriage, opposes gays in the military (which he repealed), wants tax breaks for businesses and rolls over for Israel, the he will be a right-wing fundamentalist. As it stands, he is most definitely on the left when it comes to social issues and just another politician when it comes to money and power.

[-] 1 points by demcapitalist (977) 7 years ago

Corporatist is the right wing. Any of the other bs crap they layer on top , abortion, social issues is to get votes so they can get in office and be corporatist. Like this congress. The right loves illegals because they bring the cost of labor down for their corporations. That's why you see talk but no action. Obama did more to deal with illegals in a couple of years than Bush did in 8 years cause Bush's rich buddies secretly love illegals.