Forum Post: Why Do Repeliccans LIE
Posted 12 years ago on Oct. 6, 2012, 11:17 a.m. EST by ZenDogTroll
(13032)
from South Burlington, VT
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
That question just struck me this morning - not that either lying, repeliccans, or lying repeliccans, are new - they aren't. But the lies do seem to be more pervasive this year, more strident, if not shrouded in quite as much patriotic fervor or fear mongering as was the case during the administration of utter Bushite . . . .
And so I wondered if anyone could address the issue of why? why is this so?
What did I find?
I found a website titled Jezebel where an article by one Lindy West may be found that does a great job of examining why lying is bad - and points out that often, our repelican lies kill people. Pithy examples provided.
At the bottom of the article is this gem of a gif:
which may well be intended as a warning to lying repeliccans everywhere, that tactics of fear and intimidation will not work against this Jezebel, despite the rampant tendency of right wing zombies to engage in murder and assassination . . .
But no answer as to why . . . .
FactCheck.org on their Viral Spiral page lists a number of lies from both parties, and it is clear that in their view the most blatant examples come from repelicans.
No answer as to why . . . .
WhoWhatWhy asks the question, puts forth some of the more flagrant repelican lies, addresses each of them, but never the over all question, why.
Michael Cohen at the Guardian.co.uk does the same.
Eclectablog.com had this to say about repeliccan lies:
.
America’s failure to vet and disarm Republican [sic] lies isn’t just a quirk of our democracy. It may be our fatal flaw.
Lies – accepted as “spin” – let George W. Bush pass massive tax cuts on the premise they would mostly go to the middle class – they didn’t – would pay for themselves – bullshit – and would create jobs – never happened.
Lies – furthered by the media – led us into Iraq.
Lies – uncritically accepted by media – allowed huge financial bubbles to grow with almost no investigation to what consequences they might bring.
The men and women who authored these lies are completely accepted by the media as reliable sources who form the backbone of Mitt Romney’s unprecedented attempt to make a fact-free run at the presidency. Joining the Romney team is one of the architects of a strategy to sabotage a recovery of an economy that collapsed under right wing rule. Ryan voted for everything that Bush did and then engaged in a systematic ploy to oppose anything the president proposed — including a debt commission he was on (and voted against) and a debt limit deal he made (and now campaigns against).
Again and again people including Steve Benen have asked, “If the president is so bad, why do they have to lie about his record?” The answer is the president has been successful in every way the GOP has failed – despite GOP opposition. And the GOP knows their tactics are craven and their record is miserable. They lie because that’s their only choice.
The consequences of accepting GOP lies are measured in millions of jobs, thousands of lives. Our ability to point their incompetence, their hardhearted coddling of the richest at the expense of the middle, their blatant irresponsibility is the only antidote we have left.
.
all of which is most certainly pertinent and a dead accurate assessment and does provide some measure of understanding the crucial issue of why, for as the author points out:
I found a poll, measuring the perception of respondents on the matter of repelican lies which indicated the following:
And that may be the closest to the truth that we will find. (R)epeliccans simply hate. They are haters. Rather than confront that fact, they simply dwell in the most outrageous lies that may be had, in a desperate attempt to invest you in their hate.
Be invested I say. Hate them back.
Hmmm? Hatred is harmful to self. I'm coming to understand that truism better and better as I traverse my seventh decade. But what is there to understand about the cons?
The base cons, the rank and file that we need to oppose the 1% and the 9% of ministers [overseers], sellouts and sycophants, are fools that are programmed by hatred, bigotry, cult-like individualism and free market orthodoxy that enslaves them to the rich. Reason can't reach them. Their minds have been hobbled.
Reason won't reach the 1% who control the mob and the overseers. They won't allow it. There's no honesty or sincerity in them. They will do or say anything to keep the wealth they've taken from the community and to gain even more at our expense. Since they control and program the base cons, their greed is the reason Repeliccans lie. There is no way to convince either master or slave. The former will not listen and the latter has been lobotomized by right wing propaganda and no longer has a working brain.
Wow. I've been reading this forum daily for pretty much a year now, and this is only the second time I've been flabbergasted enough to post something.
Let me start with the obvious - what does this have to do with getting money out of politics, way to alienate a good chunk of the 99% this movement claims to represent, for a movement about tolerance everyone's okay with a post encouraging others to hate people?
But more importantly, and the real crux of why I'm posting here:
Am I really to understand that in a topic calling out "Republicans" for lying and deceiving, I can find this quote:
"I found a poll, measuring the perception of respondents on the matter of repelican lies which indicated the following: •52% of respondents indicate a belief that repelicans simply hate. They are haters."
No one has any problem whatsoever with the fact that this this link takes you to an internet poll on democraticunderground.com? No one thinks maybe it's a bit deceptive to call them "respondents" when you are required to register to participate in said poll? No one thinks the "respondents" might be a bit biased, given the site and given that the thread containing the poll is titled "Why do conservate voters tolerate all the blatant lies from Republicans?"
How about the fact that even the particular response in question contains two different answers: "The 'us against them' mentality. (They hate Dems and vote R no matter what.)" Which is it? Us against them, or hate?
Or what about the fairly ironic fact that 10% of voters in a poll about conservative motivations on democracticunderground.com voted for "Motivated reasoning. (They believe what they want to believe.)"
If you truly believe you have the moral high ground, act like it. Using an internet poll from a Democrat site with a grand total of 52 votes to make a point how people feel about Republicans being dishonest is absurdly hypocritical.
It's impossible to argue with democrat or republican partisans. Even though I agree with what you are saying, it's futile. Their allegiance is to the party and not to truth. They suffer from the most serious form of "cognitive dissonance". They prefer the comfort of their lie to the discomfort of truth.
The best way to deal with them is to treat them like any troll. Feed the trolls and they will stay, ignore them and they will flee.
It's actually super interesting. I walk by the Chicago OWS group on my way to work everyday, although at this point 80% of the time it's just one guy with a fancy sandwich board standing in place.
My views tend to be more conservative than liberal, but walking by the original protests I was interested enough to come here to learn what all this was about. It quickly became apparent though that there wasn't much interest in convincing me to take part, and in fact a great deal of glee seems to be taken in mocking things that I may or may not believe. What's even weirder is that more often than not these things have absolutely nothing to do with what this movement is supposedly about.
Anyway, yeah, trolls. The reason I had only posted the once until today was because I didn't feel any interest whatsoever in getting involved in the bickering, but the forums are still fascinating to me. I was a bit floored by the original post here though, so I broke my 11 month silence.
Boy did you hit the nail on the head. This group has completely lost focus. Maybe it will wake us up and get us back on the right path.
You have to understand, some of those here are just hacks for the party. A party hack is identified by two characteristics: one, immediate formulation of whatever defense necessary to dissuade all naysayers, and two, unabashed devotion and loyalty loudly professed, generally at a time of calamity likely to generate unfavorable opinion. They consider their actions an investment and so justify in that manner, and for some it is highly profitable; but there are still those, I suppose, who prefer not to sell their souls - and we call these people "voters."
You can tell republicans are lying when you see there lips move.
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You started this thread calling a group out for being deceitful. To support this, you posted an unbelievably biased link with a summary that in no way presented it as such.
And now, in response to my comment that this is absurdly hypocritical, you post a link that, no fooling, says "A New Study Shows Conservatives Ignore Facts More than Liberals."
As Bart Simpson would say, the ironing is delicious.
Of course, none of those links, or even any of these responses, do anything but distract from the theoretical point of this movement.
Edit: Blargh. Spelling.
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Actually, I LOVE your research study results, especially this line:
"The upshot, for now, is that it’s hard to deny that all people engage in goal-directed reasoning, bending facts in favor of their moralities or belief systems."
I'm just not sure if you're ready to see how much that applies to you in this thread. And moreover, if you realize that all your "repeliccan" talk is probably pretty convincing on the right forum. And hey, if you're not looking to grow this movement, I guess this could be the right forum!
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Well said. If you've been lurking for a year you must be totally aware of the rabid liberal rantings of some of the members. I have pretty much tired of responding,. All you get are insults in return. REPELICAN being the nastiest (lol).
Glad to see their are folks like me around here that only post when really flabbergasted.
I also find it strange that these same people support our unvetted prez who nobody really knows. Course most of his sins are more of omission than outright lies. What is so damaging about that birth certificate? Just what citizenship did he claim when applying to his colleges and for financial aid? How about that CT SSN issued bt 77-79. He started working in 75 or 6, didn' he have to have an ssn back then? And what about the down low club? How can an admitted drug user step up federal enforcement of the minority crushing laws?
Sorry, I get carried away.
no one really knows the republican agenda
one word - GREED
NO ONE really knows Barack Hussein Obama II, if that is even really his name, for starters.
Zendog volunteers for the democrat party on weekends. He is part of a group on this website called Partisan Powers who's goal it is to push for the reelection of the democrats. These people have nothing to do with Occupy.
Yaa think? Him a dem hack wow that's shocking news
Great post. I would add that all the negative campaigning contributes to this situation. As both candiates are funded by the same elite, and their policies do not differ much, much of the campaign money goes into smearing the other party. Consequently you have a large body of people on both sides that sees the other side as the enemy. It is divide and conquer. The top 1% profits from this.
Why do YOU think republican supporters do not call their leaders/candidates out when they lie?
Why do YOU think republican agenda/policy is hateful towards immigrants, LGBT Americans, minorities, & womens rights?
Why do I think republican supporters don't call out their leaders/candidates when they lie? Probably for similar reasons to why you aren't calling out ZenDog for using horribly biased and misleading data points to support his stance.
Why do you guys always resort to multiple up-votes on your own comments? Is it 'cause you can't hold your own in a real debate?
His comments got up votes because it was good. The only people here manipulating votes are VQkag2 and DKAtoday. They got caught red handed by jart a few weeks ago. They were using many accounts and up voting their own comments. They've been trying to turn this forum into an Obama love fest.
Fuck you trashy - I have never sockpuppeted or bot voted.
Do I have to remind you what happened a few weeks ago when your team, Partisan Powers, was caught red handed by jart? Hint: You and your pals were creating sock puppets in order to up vote yourselves and down vote those who are not here to push the Obama agenda.
There you go spread your usual BS lies misinformation twist misdirection or whatever else applies. VQ was sock puppet voting and was slapped by jart for it. You and your cronies took the opportunity to try to smear me - you and your cronies are the ones who get booted on a consistent basis by jart and the mods due to your constant BS and attacks on this forum.
So you go ahead and continue spewing shit and calling it gold and I will continue to laugh at you and your cronies as you get continually booted.
You reported the voting manipulations yourself and blamed me for them in the hope that jart would assume you were right. Instead, she verified the server data and found that you and your friend VQkag2 were working together to bring your scores up. You both have the highest scores here. That's no coincidence.
Anyhow, people who care about this issue can simply write to jart and she will tell them exactly what happened.
I have to hand it to you, having your friend manipulate votes then going ahead and blaming me for it was a sly more on your part.
No I reported the oddity of the best comments board and knew that admin would be able to look at the voting. Face it trashy you are and have always been a sockpuppet user - ever since the 1st time you came back as a new character - your presence has been unauthorized from your very 2nd identity as you were not allowed to return with your original profile and points - where you then started a rampage of bot voting sockpuppet voting and intimidation of other forum users - no you have only been allowed back until you fuck-up again R identified and get booted - AGAIN. I expect We will see you using a new sockpuppet real soon - how many have you got left that you have created over this last year(?) but not used yet so you could try to claim to be a long time forum person who just now started making comments on the forum.
You're funny. You also have various identities my friend. How many DKAtoday variations are there. A quick forum search reveals many. How many times were you booted? Oh yeah, it doesn't matter since the second time you created a user you were already breaking the rules. You also manipulate votes. Wait a sec... You're just like me! Except, I once manipulated votes for a reason, to collapse comments. You do it for what?
I do not manipulate votes and I never have - I do vote twinkles for comments I like and stinkles for comments I do not like - that is what the votes are for - one to a customer per comment. You however have launched major attacks on this forum in the thousands of downvotes in several separate attacks and you have consistently between those attacks gone after other good forum users with your intimidation program as well as your pathetic down votes - You really got pissed at me when I got the forum to remove the collapse comment feature that you were abusing. Your reasoning is flawed - as anyone can see who takes a moment to consider what you have presented - so do you have other sockpuppets up and running ready to take the place of this current one when you get booted again?
I got pissed at you for removing comment collapsing? Dude, I had suggested it myself on many occasions. I have postings about it. I only used bots to attack users who were hurting this forum, like the 911 Truthers. Everybody knows that. And Partisan Powers, a bunch of old retired Obama lovers who have decided to make this site their retirement home.
There you go admission of abuse - and you could have had the forum ban abusers ( as you judged them to be ) except that the forum disagreed with your views - so instead you made judgement calls and attacked forum users. I still believe very strongly - that you have never been an OWS or Occupy supporter - NO - I firmly believe that you have always been a Status-quo/CorpoRAtist SHILL - set on poisoning this forum.
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What about the threat to send a computer virus to my computer? Remember that old chestnut?
Unless I stopped defending Pres Obama. No?
You threatened to beat me up if I didn't stop expressing my political opinions (which you disagreed with)
Remember that?
LMFAO!!
No. I never threatened anyone here with physical violence. Do you have a link? Of course not, because, as usual, you lie. How many sock puppets are you using today?
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I don't have access to the server data. Ask jart. She's the one who made VQkag2 wear the cone of shame. DKAtoday was the one who reported the voting manipulations while blaming trashy in the process. His hope was that jart would ban thrasy because he thought she would instantly assume it was him. Instead, she looked at the server data and saw that DKAtoday and VQkag2 were creating sock puppets to manipulate votes in their favor. That's basically how DKAtoday got such a high score. You can ask jart for the server data and a confirmation of this.
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He concocted the plan with VQkag2. The server data showed that VQkag2 and DKAtoday shared their accounts. That is, both accounts come from two different places (two IPs), but they both share their passwords so that each could control both accounts. That's how they manage to be "both" here so often. Sometimes they really are both here, at other times, DKAtoday controls his account and VQkag2's account, sometimes it's the opposite. VQkag2 is here about 14 hours everyday. It's not just one person. Same goes for DKAtoday.
You are clearly delusional. Dk & and I do not know each others passwords, never share accounts, rarely talk.
We did not coordinate any effort to upvote each other or downvote anyone.
I decided to downvote excessively the obnoxious, divisive group who had upvoted themselves, downvoted some decent users. I did that because of the injustice you and your friends were perpetrating against those decent people and because the karma points seem to annoy you to no end!
I did that on my own. I paid the price. But I have never been banned as you continue to be, repeatedly.!
Grow up!
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He didn't get such a high score by doing it once. It's an ongoing thing. You can ask jart if you want confirmation, you don't have to trust me, there is server data you can check.
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Thanks for the support - but you need not defend me - just have fun - like I do - in exposing his lies. His reasoning is always faulty and it is fun to watch him self destruct over time.
You're part of Partisan Powers. You volunteer for the democratic party on your weekends. Of course, you most likely do it to. You're here to spread the Obama gospel and you'll do anything to make sure it's spread all over. Partisan Powers are not here for Occupy.
Trashy was not involved in that posting. He did not get up voted that time because he had not posted comments. VQkag2 and DKAtoday were voting themselves up and voting everyone else down.
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No. You seem confused. Perhaps you're senile, or just slow.
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I don't even know what post you are referring to. The one in which DKAtoday cries about voting manipulation? If so, it's still there.
I'm not sure how to reply here: if I should point out how paranoid it is for someone with 8k points to accuse someone with 33 of fabricating support, or if I should point out that on a thread about using deception, you're posting off-topic while accusing others of not addressing the subject at hand?
Plus you know - money in politics and stuff.
For the record, today marks the third day I've ever logged in after reading here for a year. I have never voted for or against anyone's posts, unless non-logged-in accidental clicks are counted, in which case I have done that dozens of time on my phone.
If you are unaware of it, there is a long history of OWS opponents upvoting every post against OWS supporters and downvoting all pro OWS posts, multiple times with bots. I have had NUMEROUS instances of my comments being voted down 25 times by just one guy with his bot. So you see how one might come to take these things at face value.
I am TOTALLY aware of it. Honestly, I'm still horrified/confused why a movement that started its existence SO focused on having no leaders ever thought that indirectly knighting people as leaders through a karma number made any sense.
Beyond that though - if this was my first day here (and almost certainly there is some newcomer reading this forum for the first day today), what is the impression I would take away from someone with 8k points raising that point?
I urge you very strongly, if you want this movement to be successful, you have to think like that. And having seen that question dozens of times in the last year, I can tell you what it always made me think
"Wow, those points are meaningless. Yet they're happy to distract from the movement's focus to bring up karma points? That makes me think they care way more about the politics of this forum than they do about politics in real life."
Also = for the record, within 12 minutes of my response to you, I got negative two points. Must be bots!
I've always thought these scores were just a distraction. They take away focus from the debate. I agree with you.
I haven't posted in about four months, so I don't know what's going on with this at the moment.
So as someone who has just been lurking for a year - thank you. I will continue to suggest though, that this debate is in itself a distraction from what this movement is trying to accomplish. Accusing a large section of the country of being liars, and beyond that, accusing the movement to hate them, makes a lie out of the idea of the 99%.
I suspect if this forum is over going to become a good advertisement for OWS, posters are going to have to get much better at self-censoring all the many things that distract from supporting the real message. And all the talk of bots and user IDs and the most successful internet troll I've ever seen does nothing but tell the casual readership that the movement is NOT what's important to this community.
The problem, and the unfortunately complex nature of the debate - and thus much of the confusion - revolves around the complexity of how to actually make change. Blooburgs thugs won round one. We need to keep at it until the mission's accomplished. That's a really difficult, complex, and exasperating task.
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Nope. It's just your foolish statement.
We've heard it before and it's just as false now.
You are aware that voting occurs in GAs too?
Voting makes all the sense in the world. I'm pretty sure though voting is to determine a course of action, right? They don't vote everytime someone says something to generate a running popularity score?
Why are you calling me foolish? You have 13k points behind your name. To newcomers, you are a leader here!
"Voting makes all the sense in the world"
See, we agree. Nothing more needs to said.
No qualifiers are needed.
Huh. I have to admit, that was a pretty intelligent way to get out of the conversation and make it look like I'm either conceding a point to you or coming back for an argument.
This movement would be in a much better position if that amount of PR saavy was applied on a regular basis.
That was an extremely non-committal response, but thanks for the schmooze........:)
Frankly? I don't think you came here to concede a single thing.
You could try and prove me wrong though.
Why would I come here to concede anything!!!
What??
This is YOUR space. You should be using it to prove things, not me! My initial point was that this thread is an AWFUL advertisement for your movement. It still is! The more time spent arguing with me offtopic the more people will see it, which isn't great for the movement either!
I came here yesterday to point out that using obviously biased Democrat materials to characterize Republicans as hateful is a huge mis-step for an inclusive movement.
You have been reading this forum for a year and have not picked up on the fact that the republican party is RINO(?) - republican in name only - the base members ( the republican 99% if you will ) of the republican party may well be still holding to republican ideals - but their leadership is RINO as is a good number of their officials in office as well as those being supported by the RINO leadership running for office. Look at the numbers of individuals leaving the repub party and registering as independents - yes this is also happening to the democratic party because of the failure of the party to support the people - also due to some DINO's actions - the registered number of independent voters now out numbers the registered number of repub's and demo's - independents are now the most numerous of the registered voters.
These facts have been forwarded here along with the reasons why and have been shared out from this site for others to contemplate.
Issues are finally getting traction - not personalities or parties - ISSUES.
Awesome. Calling out LEADERS for being dishonest is a MUCH better way to be inclusive of the common man.
This thread didn't do that. In fact, the poll to which ZD linked actively targeted not leaders, but the every day republicans.
You've been reading this site for an entire year and haven't conceded a single point?
Your conse(R)vative views are unchanged after all that time and all that information?
You must understand by now, that a lot of what conse(R)vatives actually back is in direct opposition to what this movement is trying to accomplish.
If you find nothing hateful in conse(R)vatives forcing teachers to teach creationism, then you are lost.
This is such a great summary of my viewpoint. When did this movement change from being inclusive to requiring a large group of Americans to concede their political beliefs?
And no, I don't believe that conservative views any more than liberal views are in opposition to what this movement is trying to accomplish, unless you want this movement to take a stance when it comes to creationism, in which case - cripes, good luck getting people to back your economic and religious and political views all at once.
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It's one thing for OWS to not support conservative ideology, but if anyone on this forum is serious about representing the views of 99% of the public, the movement pretty much can't support liberal ideology either.
What it CAN support, is specific economic goals that appeal to the compassion of the left as well as the right's focus on protecting the individual from unnecessary government interference.
Look - I attempted to speak well of BOTH sides. Craziness.
And for the record ZD, I didn't post my response because of your views on Republicans. I posted because the color of your post reduced your credibility by doing exactly what you were accusing the other side of doing. I wouldn't have had any reason to say anything if you hadn't tried to pass off a clearly biased poll as something else.
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Well, it did constitute 6 of the 9 paragraphs in my original response, the one whose popularity seems to confuse you.
So yeah - I think you lost the moral highground to accuse others of deception in the way you characterized an internet poll from a Democrat site without disclosing the obvious bias and unreliablity of said poll.
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Welcome back to Sunday morning bots GK!>>>>>>>>>>:)
Glad to see you back and posting again.
Likewise!!!
Can you be more specific?
What was biased about it?
building bombs 'til bunkers boil
getting paid for shell filled toil
if I am to work tomorrow
lobe the load on foreign soil
yep US only pays 41% of the total world military budget
World Military budget in Billions (percent total) by Nation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_expenditures
Global Arms Sales By Supplier Nations
39% United States
18% Russia
8% France
7% United Kingdom
5% Germany
3% China
3% Italy
11% Other European
5% Others
http://www.globalissues.org/article/74/the-arms-trade-is-big-business#GlobalArmsSalesBySupplierNations
TOP 10 Arms Produces
Notes: An S denotes a subsidiary company. A dash (–) indicates that the company did not rank among the SIPRI Top 100 for 2009
http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2012/mar/02/arms-sales-top-100-producers
Widow Winchester's riffle wealth warped her house.
Stairs to ceilings. Windows to walls.
Always slept in a new room,
hiding from shot souls
This might work, but you've missed a lot of info to the contrary.
You could start here.
http://occupywallst.org/forum/teabaggers-embarrass-america-again/
Teabagge(R)s are among the most conse(R)vative of the (R)epelican'ts.
Evidence to the contrary of what? On what journey am I to be starting?
I feel the same way about that thread as I did when I first read it months ago: "Huh, that has nothing to do with money-in-politics and, huh, why would you want to alienate the many journalists and Christians this movement supposedly represents?"
It has everything to do with money in politics. Everything.
It cost BIG money to be that embarrassing.
Perhaps your reading was on the selective side?
Nice! This is a super way to encourage me and any other readers to join your movement!
Why put a positive face on the movement when you can just question my reading comprehension? Explaining the connection of how you are praising the Australia media for calling out the Tea Party, to how you want to get (theoretically) American money out of (theoretically) American politics, might just be way more convincing than writing off people who don't see it as engaging in selective reading.
I'm sorry, but I have to wonder why you can't see that it takes barrels full of money to get such ignorant ideas signed into legislation.
Some 900+ anti-womens rights legislation signed into law by (R)epelican'ts.
All sorts of various and sundry teabagge(R)y, every single one of which cost millions, if not tens of millions to get signed into law.
Please note that OWS is anti Koch brothers and most of these "laws" were written with their approval and donations.
Get the money out, means starting with the Kochs and their ilk.
Here's some more reading for you.
http://www.occupiedmedia.com/.
Some people are not really out for change, like most occupiers. They are Dems that are looking for something to do, seems how their party has become everybit as corrupted as the Republicans.
Dems and Reps are losing registrations at record levels. There are not a lot of campaign signs out in yards. And most of the candidates arent really doing that much campaigning.
Everyone knows the shit is going to hit the fan.
hchc - can I ask an honest question? This isn't in any way meant to be glib, but what makes you so certain that the shit is going to hit the fan?
I promise I'm not being sarcastic or trying to call you out. It's one of the things that's always felt weird as an outsider reading this forum. I know many people here feel like we're heading for an economic meltdown, but I don't see much discourse meant to convince the lurkers like me that this is the case. What makes you so certain that we're heading for an even worse economic situation?
It's one of those items that seem to be accepted facts in the OWS community, but there isn't much literature here for the casual reader to be convinced.
I enjoy a good conversation, no worries.
I belief it could happen, or not. But I put the chances of it happening vs not at about 70/30.
The reason not is simple: We can blow a hole through the entire planet, and have rigged all the markets. We literally control everything. So that would simply lead to a slow downgrade of society.
The reasons for: The people are not able to think for themselves, and the currency and industry is in full blown explotation mode. None of the problems that have been mounting over the last 30 years have been addressed. We have only papered over the 08 crash, which can only last for so long. At some point the markets are going to have to correct it. Congress is bought out, globalization is changing and leveling the field, and the people are more concerned with stuffing their faces with bigmacs than who we are bombing as our triumphant last stand.
I just figure that anytime a population doesnt know what countries its own country is bombing, thats a sign that the thing doesnt have much longer to live.
'Cause they haven't called them out.
Birther much?
You didn't answer the hateful repub agenda policy question. Gonna blame Zennie for that?
I don't even understand where you're going with this. Cause who hasn't called whom out?
And how on earth did you jump to the conclusion that I think the President of the United States wasn't born American?
I'm not answering your other question, because:
Edit: spelling.
"who hasn't called who out"?
Repub supporters do not call their leaders out! for lies like the birther crap, the work out of welfare nonsense, $716b out of medicare, etc etc.
And like you they avoid & don't call out the repub leaders who lie about not being anti LGBT, immigrants, minorities & womens rights.
That's thread related.
So, you've now conflated your second question, which was about your opinion that Republican policy is hateful, with the first question you asked.
I realize I am wasting my pixels as I say this, but if you truly believe that the average Republican/conservative believes that they are anti-women's rights and anti-minorities, you'll never be able to find a common ground with them. That's as ridiculous as someone from that group calling YOU out for being in support of murdering babies.
It's obvious rhetoric that is meant to divide.
But hey - the best way to overturn Citizens United is by fighting for LGBT rights, right?
You have to call out the leaders of your party! You have to move them from hateful extremes on the issues I mentioned and others if we are to find 'common ground'.
Pretending your leaders are not hateful towards so many Americans is not not a path for coming together! Supporting LGBT rights, immigrants, minorities, & womens rights is not rhetoric! It is the civil rights issues of the day.
Getting money out of politics & overturning the republican appointed conservative judges finding on right wing wacko citizens united is not the only issue we must deal with.
We must get money out of politics as a means to create real representation of the people, & to correct all the hateful agenda items you are supporting, by avoiding them & not calling out your leaders.
Abortion is not murder! It is a medical procedure that a woman should decide for herself. Not the church & not the state. Your extremist, hateful rhetoric calling it murder betrays your partisan leanings.
You continue to avoid the question regarding the lies of you republican leaders compared to their policies/agenda.
I think it's interesting that you think referring to murdering babies is hateful rhetoric betraying partisan leanings, but saying that Republican leadership is hateful, and the agenda of Republicans is hateful, is apparenly NOT partisan?
My point here, which you displayed so ably, is that my one statement that didn't even use the word abortion evoked an obvious reaction in you, and your response made it clear that you're no longer super interested in finding common ground with me.
How do you think the average Republican/conservative feels when you tell him or her that they are hateful for their beliefs? Beliefs that you are painting with your brush, not theirs?
And just to completely throw you into a tizzy, without studying the case in-depth, I DO think money is speech, and that individuals should be able to spend their time and/or money supporting individuals/causes they endorse. I think we have to be very careful on how we would limit that right.
So if you wanted to find commonground with me, I'd love to understand what the alternative is to Citizens United, how we can limit money in politics without setting us on a dangerous precedent, and if there's a way to do this that's far simpler. Moreover, if we limit donations, do we also limit volunteering? What is the value of every Obama endorsement posted on this forum. Does that need to be regulated?
You're also probably never going to find commonground with anyone that identifies as Republican with an agenda of "overturning the republican appointed conservative judges."
I am a partisan.! No pretense here boss.
All our problems are rooted in some pro 1% plutocrat conservative policy.
As a result:
I support replacing the pro 1% conservatives with pro 99% progressives.
No contributions in campaigns. Volunteering is perfectly ok.
Money is not speech. Speech is speech. To equate speech with money immediately introduces the inequity of rich & poor. & gives the wealthy an advantage.
We don;t want that do we?
Gotcha. So all the corporations stop giving money, they just start donating the time of their employees or agencies, and you're cool with that?
Can they pay those people to donate their time to political causes, if they're not donating to the cause directly?
Are you sure you're okay with letting people with more free time have a political advantage over those with less? Since they can volunteer more?
Corps may not pay or force people to volunteer. That is not volunteering.
Let individuals volunteer. I don't mind people with free time having an advantage in volunteering.
That sounds fine. You got a problem with that?
Absolutely I have a problem with that. Why give advantages to the very young, very old, or very wealthy? This puts anyone working long hours at a major disadvantage, since thier voice in the political process is lessened since they have less time to contribute.
If money is protected as speech & allowed in campaigns then the 1% plutocrats will maintain the destructive control over the system and the rest of us.
As a result it must be ended because of that inherent unfairness.
Volunteering is different. Everyone can do that.if one group is more able to it's ok because volunteering will never become the dominating destructive force that money has and would become.
'Sok we disagree, That's all. I stand with the vast majority of people who are not wealthy and influencial. You stand with 1% plutocrats who have rigged the system against us, crashed the world economy & has bought our govt.
Peace
We have that problem now. You ain't mentioned any objection so I think you are being dishonest.
Any one can volunteer, after work, w/e, take vacation, leave of ansence. etc.. Certainly the unemployed might have an advantage but that sounds like a good thing.
Get over it!
About what am I being dishonest? I think a person should be able to buy a billboard to espouse their beliefs. I think a person should be able to hold a dinner to tell people about a cause that is important to them. I think if I have $20 to my name I should be able to spend that entire $20 printing up political flyers if that is important to me.
I think it's a very, very fine line between saying donating time and effort is okay, and saying donating money is not okay. I'm saying you skew the system in different ways if the whole talking point is "get money out of politics."
I'm saying that writing off one group having a political advantage over another lessens the power of your argument.
We need a Democratic landslide, because then the Democrats will not have any excuse to not be Democrats anymore. We need to push the whole zeitgeist to THE LEFT. That will validate and rekindle the movement. Just as apathy is contageous so is acivism.
VOTE!!!
Hate, fear, anger, leads to the dark side! ;)
Very wise you are, yes yes.
LOL. But it IS true!
I am wit' dat 100%.
We must reverse the right ward lurch of the last 30 years. We must make true the concept that American politics is a pendulum that is ready to swing back left.
Dems have been most disappointing for the last 3 decades as they have betrayed progressive principles and supported pro 1% policies.
Dems need to be dragged back to the left and progressive principles. Certainly voting is necessary.
But also we can't go back to sleep. We must maintian and grow a protest movement that can pressure all pols & provide cover and justification for implementing progressive change that will benefit the 99%.
"it's the only way to be sure"
I'm with you on every point here! When people become apathetic corruption insues. There is nothing new in that. It has always been that way. The opposite of apathy is activism. Americans must return to the roots of our founding values; to Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Payne, etc., and once again become activists.
It is the best way to excercize the power of the people.
Voting is critical but since there's been so much corruption and infiltration by the1% plutocrats it ain't enough.
We gotta grow the movement and put pressure on all pols for real change that will counter the 1% oligarchs & benefit the 99%.
Whew! I'm ramblin'
On the contrary. Straight to the point.
Nice to have you back GK. You've always been sensible & civil. Not just because we agree but in general sincewe have so many bomb throwers here.
Thanks, good to be back:) We must not fall into the futile cycle of hatred, no matter how they try to pull us into that bleak wasteland with them. Hatred is where all meaningful life stops. But you know that:)
I disagree. A democratic landslide would give the democrats the message that what they have been doing in the past few years is acceptable to the vast majority of Americans and that these Americans have voted for them so that they can continue doing what they are doing now. Occupy would then protest and ask the democrats to change, and they would simply reply "Change? Why? We got the vast majority of votes. We are already doing what Americans want us to do."
What would create the possibility for change would be a republican landslide. These clowns would then come in and start ruining the country, giving Occupy a boost since a huge amount of Americans would be distressed. People were eager to protest against Bush, but not against Obama. With Romney at the helm, the country would become worse giving Occupy the terrain to operate on.
TR@SHY's BACK!! Hey there TR@SHY, how's stuff in the weirdo closet???
I know, ad hominem and all that. Well, you're the worst one on the forum for that and always have been.
Good luck with your psyche ops.
The Dems already got a landslide victory in 08. What did it get us? Crumbs.
Exactly. Obama didn't really do much at all. He's almost invisible. Does he even exist? I'm not sure anymore.
Two parties, one claiming to be liberal, the other claiming to be conservative, both teaming up to deliver fascist/corporatist policy and destroying the kids futures.
Both funded by the same three lobbies. Both lieing their asses off constantly.
A population that has been fight for more power for one half of the other, and sometimes getting that, for a century.
And even on here, OWS, which is suppose to be Revolutionary, its infested with people who cant see that they have been playing the same freakin game for decades.
Not a good sign of things to come...
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"Hate does not eradicate hate. Only by love is hatred dissolved. This is an ancient and eternal law."
~ The Dhammapada
Don't let hatred blind you Zen. I don't like the (R)s either, but I don't hate them. Actually, I am trying to understand them better. Hatred will not bind OWS together. It will tear it apart. The real enemy is the 1% (or the 1% of the 1%). Common folk have to come together against the Plutocracy/Kleptocracy. Speak the truth always, yes. But don't alienate millions of people in the process. We need them.
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This is why ALL politicians lie.
http://m.youtube.com/?reason=8&rdm=2345#/watch?feature=m-rec-index&v=xZDKZZp0YUI
Having read the arguments and links on this thread, I can only conclude that OP has his head firmly inserted in his rectum. Op is filled with hate and loathing of the Reps, for doing the exact same things as the Dems!
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They are blatantly lying more so this cycle because they know (like Lyndsey Graham said) that they ain't making enough "angry white men" to be successful!
The repubs can't win without lying & cheating.
Because they can't openly attack the existence of a middle class.
Because if they openly supported this criminogenic system they'd be arrested.
Because they can't openly attack the American way of life.
[I could go on and on . . .]
Because if they did it would be obvious they are the anti-patriotic, anti-American Treason Party. http://www.suntimes.com/news/steinberg/13560582-452/happy-july-4th-to-the-treason-party.html
No need to hate them back, just keep shining the light on truth on the rats.
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they lie because the lemmings believe
I have very strong feelings about this subject but I must admit they are just my opinion.
And it will sound very sanctimonious.
And is very “generalized” – there would be many exceptions.
Generally the “D” / progressive philosophy is based on - live and let live. You do your thing – I’ll do mine.
Your God is your God. My God is my God.
There is a very strong inclination to questions. Inquiry. Doubt. Questioning.
All Americans are Americans.
“My country, right or wrong;
if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right.” Imagine a D candidate promising to cut the defense budget by 20% -
can YOU imagine a D voter believing this?
Generally the “R” / conservative philosophy is based on -
you must be like me.
If you don’t do it my way, you are wrong, or evil.
My God is the only “right” God.
There is a very strong inclination to absolute answers. Belief.
Consider the connection of where the rigid factions of Catholicism, Judiasm, Protestanism, Islamism are - politically.
Not only are these people VERY likely to be “Rs”, they invest a great deal to train their children the same way. OBEY & BELIEVE
Only my kind of American is a real American.
“My country, right or wrong”
Imagine an R candidate promising to cut income tax rates by 20% -
can YOU imagine an R voter not believing this?
Because they're liars.
Why do you refuse to admit that bombing civilians and then bombing their rescuers is a war crime?
Since we're asking questions.
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind."
Anyone who disagrees with us is a LIAR!
Why do Reps lie? Easy, to keep up with Dem's lies.Both are corrupt to the core. "Hate them back"? Your post is just the other side of the same counterfit coin.
Same reason Dems do- its about power and control, not you, me or anyone else on this board. Get it through your head. Throwing money at problems instead of fixing what is wrong is not caring.
By assasination, you mean the three americans we assasinated, openly?
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C'mon, You barely exposed the tip of the iceberg.
Brian Terry Jamie Zapata Untold Mexican Victims of Fast and Furious Christopher Stevens and 3 others Lt. Quarles Harris Jr. . Donald Young Larry Bland Nate Spencer
I think it has more to do with establishing and maintaining absolute power. They do not wish to be beholden to the people, and therefor they cut them completely out of the political discussion by establishing that they don't have to tell us the truth about anything.
this is true of both partys by the way.
We must dig for the truth. Like the truth that dems support wider registration and repubs need lower participation.
Just educate yourself on the truth of the parties positions on the issues. Vote your conscience after you have learned the truth about how your representatives vote.
Peace
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That's why they finally had to burn their own ass to present any validity to their moves on voter suppression.
Which suggests that RINO voting should get major scrutiny.
Why do they always seem to miss that point?
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Or they actually endorse the suppression, through insisting that it's inconsequential, in spite of all proof to the contrary.
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They are obsessed. And people who are obsessed do irrational act to satisfy their obsession. They can't help themselves any more than a person who is an addict can keep from lying to get the drug they "need." They also steal. Some times they will acknowledge that what they are doing is wrong, but that will usually be followed by "it is necessary for my existence."
Why will they steal elections through voter suppression, or "selective" registration, as they have just been caught doing in multiple states? They need to do it to win. The failure to take off the warning that voters must provide a government issued picture ID in multiple counties in Pennsylvania after a judge orders them to refrain from doing this. is done for the same reason?
When the Republican National Committee is engaged in this directly, why would anyone vote for any of their candidates? Easy, they have to win. It is a "moral" imperative to immoral behavior. They see it as a higher good, therefore moral.
Why does anyone lie, period?
Because they believe it is to their advantage to do so. Morality does not enter the equation and is irrelevant.
For some it can be an attempt not to hurt someones feelings - if they can help it = It's Not You It's Me.
It can be an attempt to allay fear = This won't hurt a bit.
But much lying has no such consideration = a vote for me is a vote for you.
I believe in truth, period! I don't believe in telling lies, even "white" ones (where did that saying come from?).
In such situations I would simply say nothing, or else try to tell the truth in a way that would be more elegant rather than blunt.
To tell the truth, I have found it difficult to maintain that position to protect my children from bullying.
Truth is the best policy - always - it is a harder ( or so it can seem ) path to follow as it requires more input or involvement from people.
I truly like you - but for whatever reason - I am not attracted to you.
This may hurt a little - but I will do it quick and it will be done.
Vote for me instead of that other individual because I support the issues you need me and want me to.
"It is not a lie to keep the truth to oneself." ~ Star Trek's Spock
Omission? No it's not a lie - but I don't think it a great policy either.
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Although I have to say nice job with getting the animation to work.
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It's in their best interest to do so. It is their only choice. It says far more about those that vote for them or follow them.
Are you talking about the democrats or the republicans. You comment could be addressed to either party.
Right now I am talking about the rethuglicans.
What are your thoughts on the democraps? Do you think Obama will save us, or will he save the 1%? Do you volunteer for the democrats like zendog, or do you support Occupy's anti-establishement message?
I nail democrats when necessary. You should have been paying attention to the states. Again, this is where your power lies. You don't like what I am saying? Not my problem.
I'm not interested in your Friday night undercover work. If you want to do special investigations to confirm which candidate is better apt at presiding over your body, that's your business.
Listen little drama queen........don't quit your day job.
WTF?
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They lie because they can't SELL Plutocracy or Fascist Dictatorship!
"Liberty and Freedom" SELLS!
You are either so very biased or so very sick that it borders on insanity. You have become SO blinded by your own hatred that you couldn't distinguish between a fact and a fallacy if they were the size of billboards.
YOUR hatred drives you to find pick up dirty scraps and weasel opinions and drivel and hold them up in your public square as if they are shining jewels of wisdom and truth! You're like a crazy, feeble man holding up a dead rat and screaming "Behold! A precious white tiger cub! Come and see! Isn't it beautiful?" You then carry it around petting it and talking to it because you refuse to see, or maybe cannot any more, what you really hold in your hands.
Everyone in the village feels sorry for you, but every time someone attempts to help you, or point out what you're really doing, they are immediately attacked, and declared as suspect-evil wrongdoers trying to take away your beautiful pet. Jealous! Thieves! Liars! Evil! But only according to YOU. In reality, they are none of those things. "Rather than confront that fact, [you] simply dwell in the most outrageous lies that [you] have". Eventually they just leave you alone with your maniacal spouting and your dead rodent, feeling sorry for your condition and hoping someday that you get better.
You need help.
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Linking to sites that hand out dead rats and call them white tiger cubs, to people like you doesn't change the fact that you are still holding a dead rat. Only a fool/tool would think it does.
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http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/22/opinion/kristof-politics-odors-and-soap.html?_r=2&src=tp&smid=fb-share#comments
As a rabid liberal, research proves you are incapable of even knowing what I'm trying to say, much less understand it.
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Yeah. Of course. That was the important takeaway. Yep.
After perusing that site, Factcheck.org, seems like the lying was pretty much equal by both Reps and Dems.
Good try at a spin tho.
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Wekk if you knew math, and you were a petroleum engineer, you wouldnt be such a putz.
Nice try, PUTZ.
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That's ridiculous. You wish! LMFAO again.
Wow, this is so funny. All the hacks are here.
Motivated reasoning: See all of the above.
But... in true Democrat light...
If we assign equal value, as a matter of tolerance, to each every value, are we essentially valueless?
No!
Shoveling SHIT - and - calling it - GOLD. MSM corpoRATions Politics - the maturing of PR Misinformation Spin Twist Propaganda Advertizing and Out-Right Lies - because crime can pay as long as it is large enough - but only until the crime kills the world/environment.
With some of them actually publishing lies like these, it's hard to know why anyone wouldn't hate them.
http://www.addictinginfo.org/2012/10/05/republican-legislator-says-slavery-was-a-blessing-in-disguise/
Talk about a throwback!!! But white supremacy is nothing but a throwback to Civil War losers who were/are pissed-off about what happened to plantation South (e.g. Gone with the Wind).
This barbarian is from Arkansas, so maybe he was brought up sucking on hayseeds. The Clintons were from there too, but they grew up civilized. I fail to understand why bufoons like this make it to legislatures (oh wait...I forgot, they get ELECTED...wonder how THAT happens?).
in a black box
Perhaps they went to school in places like this.
http://www.addictinginfo.org/2012/10/05/noose-incident-wynne-arkansas/
Just a hazing by the sons of the "good old boys"?
Somehow, I don't think so.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E48QqcTOXeY&feature=youtube_gdata_player
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See my response and link to underdogs comment.
This shit should be front page around the country.
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What about people who make repetative comments to keep the post near the top :)
Are you claiming that your godlike democrats don't lie? Oh, by al means HATE them back!! Afterall isn't that what OWS is about?
They lie to win. It's all that matters to them. There's no honesty or sincerity in them. They are the enemies of human society. They are abomination of human nature due to corruption of social instinct. They want to lead for their own well being instead of that of the community, whose work they rely on to provide it. Repus are all fucked up! To tolerate their existence is to risk extinction.
All politicians lie, not just republicans. The democrats lie all the time. They all serve the 1%, so of course they lie to the common people. They sugarcoat everything in order to win your vote, or have people like you (zendog) volunteering their time for them. Then they get in office and pass bills to stripe you of more rights.
That may be true to a degree, yet the (R)epelican'ts are particularly good at it ever since that guy said those notorious words. " I am not a crook".
Their lies have been extremely egregious ever since.
Not to know that requires a complete ignorance of the deeds of the teabagge(R)s.
Are you here to push Obama's agenda, or are you here to push Occupy's agenda? Obama serves the 1%. Agreed? Of course not, you believe Obama serves the people just like your other friends zendog, VQkag2, DKAtoday, and shadz66. You are Partisan Powers, and some of you even volunteer your weekend time to the democrats.
Newsflash! Occupy was created under Obama's presidency because he wasn't doing anything worthwhile to make the country a better place. He was lying back in 08 when he made promises he knew he wouldn't keep. He did nothing, yet, here you are, 4 years later, and you still believe he will help Occupy somehow.
Dude, Romney and Obama bother serve the 1%. Get that through your head. Enough of your partisan politics. It does not help Occupy. Occupy is about the 99%. We welcome people from all parties, we welcome anyone who wants to fight corruption in banking. That includes the democrats like you, and the teabaggers, and greenies, and whoever else. You should stop using derogatory terms towards people who are not Obama supporters like yourself. Try to include everyone of the 99%. That's what Occupy was designed for.
What agenda?
NEWSFLash So what?
It could also be said it formed in response to teabagge(R)y too, as that was the time they began to pass their cruel and unusual legislation.
A point that seems to get short shift.
Did I remember to remind you that teabagge(R)s raised my taxes to fund yet another corporate tax break?
Who says you can't come in? You're here aren't you?
so stop the constant bullshit.
You're supposed to be representing Occupy here, not the democrats. Occupy is for the 99%, not the 1%. If you hate teabaggers, conservatives, etc.. and don't want to work with them to go against corruption, then perhaps Occupy is not for you. Remember, Occupy is for the 99%, not the 45%, or the 12%, or the 78%. It's for the 99%.
Who said I didn't want to work with them?
From what I've seen around here and in real life, they have no desire at all to work with us.
You've done nothing to dispel that.
"Will not work agaimst this Jezebel"
Are you calling Lindy West a Jezebel? I expect an apology to womyn everywhere, you sexist pig.
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Well then, you're a silly goose.
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Maybe if you reply to your own post with silly sayings enough, it will take hold and you can turn OWS into a Democratic campaigning machine!! Because Dems and Reps battling it out ISNT what the establishment wants us to being doing, right?
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And only two parties that I am aware of have been fucking us over constantly for decades. One wants ID, which is stupid.
Both will tell, as usual, over 5million felons to go fuck themselves, they have ZERO participation. Both tell other candidates to fuck off with debates. Both sue other parties to keep them off the ballots, limiting choices for the American people. Both will tell their small 20% of the population whatever it takes to get elected.
ID or no ID, you are going to get fucked.