Forum Post: What would Jesus say about OccupyWallSt
Posted 12 years ago on Oct. 9, 2011, 2:55 p.m. EST by Matthias
(1056)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
Jesus said you cannot serve both God and riches.
The love of money is a root of all evil.
God has commanded not to take interest on debt. He has commanded to release debt every seven years. He has commanded to redistribute basic wealth (land) every 50 years.
But the governments by and large do not obey Him. Monarchies, communists and also democracies. Repend in case you have also refused to accept Him as Lord and as King of Kings. Jesus is the true hope of the world. The prophecy is that He will teach the nations peace and they will turn their swords into plowshares. Then no nation will raise up and wage war against another nation.
How long will the world refuse to follow Him. Humans are corrupt and no matter what form of govenrment they will create they will ruin it, exploit it and forget about the cause of the poor.
Communism has failed. Capitalism has failed. Socialism has failed. Monarchies have failed.
How long do you want to be ignorant. Learn from Christ and the world will learn peace and righteousness. Christ is the true advocate of the poor.
Wake up! Stand up for the true King of Kings of the world. Jesus Christ!
What is wrong with His life, his teaching? Hasn't He said, blessed are the poor and woe to you rich. Hasn't He said to sell whatever you have and give it to the poor? Has He lived in mansions or has He shared the simple life of Main Street. He is the true hope. You are struggling for a message.
The message is there. It is the Gospel of the Kingdom of God. This kingdom is a political one as well. But humans have rejected it. But it is coming. The prophecy is clear. The Harlot Babylon is fallen, and the Kings will mourn, the traders will mourn because no one will buy their stuff anymore, because God has taken revenge against the Harlot which has corrupted the governments.
OccupyWall street wake up and see the true Helper for all those who are oppressed. Jesus Christ
Men are bad and will make any system bad. If people repent and accept the Gospel God will give His spirit and with this new spirit the world will function. Jesus Christ will teach the peoples peace and righteouness. Isaiah has prophecied of this. John has prophecied of this . Turn to God and beg for righteousness and then there will be true change.
Updated (20/02/2012): Who am I ? Watch my video: What Exactly Is Evil About the 1% http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-s3XqbU81k
Keeping religion out of government should be included in the core agenda of OWS. We don't need to talk about Jesus here.
Talking about Jesus, if done in a non-proselytizing fashion, does not mean that we are necessarily bringing religion into this movement, or into government. Jesus promoted the same core values (social justice, peace, economic fairness, compassion and assistance for the poor...) as most OWS supporters. It is important to mention Jesus to remind many right wing "Christians" of this fact, as many of them have conveniently forgotten those teachings of Jesus that do not jive with their own political agendas. Also, let's not forget about the many religious leaders (of all faiths) who have publicly expressed their support for OWS, and who have provided shelter, food, etc. for demonstrators. Many people automatically recoil at the mention of Jesus, or anything "religious," because there has historically been so much oppression and hypocrisy associated with organized religion. However, if we paint all people of faith with the same brush - assigning negative stereotypes - we will lose the support of many liberal people of faith who share many of our core social beliefs.
Much of America's original documents were written by Quakers. Quakers are the opposite of our current religious right. They were people who saw the hippocracy of organized religion and how corrupt religion becomes when it is used politically. It really is disgusting to watch a bunch of fat cats round up a bunch of Christians with some phony religious talking point only to get elected and go on a big money grab where they get to feed even more money to the American oligarchs. It is good for religion to keep in out of politics. Religion can have some purity only if it is kept out of government.
"The Rise of Christian Nationalism in America" by Liz Theoharis
"Or How to Legislate Evil and Punish the Poor"!
e tenebris, lux?
I love the way you said this, username2011. Thank you. Everyone informs their political beliefs based on some world view and that's not the problem- it's when they organize so they can lie, brainwash, manipulate and coerce others into following that view that it's wrong.
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When you remind right wing Christians of what their religion actually states, they roll their eyes, because for them, religion is merely a means of tribal identification, so it manifests in ways that reinforces their narcissistic tendencies. In their defense, they really can't help themselves.
That has been my experience as well...growing up Catholic I have a strong sense of do unto others and hold it as a core value ...however my experience meeting religious people who do not practice this and use religion instead as a means for self advancement and moral superiority and use it as a mask to do what they want and still claim morality turned me off...it is my belief some people are born with in built moral compasses and empathic natures...probably Jesus was one of those....perhaps people who need guidance should look for the Jesuses among us instead of looking to organized "tribes" or a man or world in the sky. Heaven could be ours here and now if we would make it.. Jesus kind of went his own way and didn't advocate self advancement or judgement. They also fail to remember there are those who will take advantage of their beliefs and know the right things to say...people need to be able to discern truth...being willing to see truth and see through masks. I sort of agree with Buddhists who frequently shift their belief structures in the discernment of facts. I really don't think people need god they just need to be and do good. Maybe some people need the fear of a fiery afterlife to behave nicely....but they are the last people we should be listening to I would think...?
Good comment.
Don't people think that all religions should focus on the positive - "DOING GOOD WORKS" - rather than promoting/supporting violence?
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Exactly
YOU don't need to talk about Jesus here. That's YOUR business and I respect that.
But when you you use "WE" and claim to speak for us all ("We don't need to talk about Jesus here"), sorry buddy but that's called DOGMATISM and is imo disrespectful of those of us who do think that the REAL teachings of Jesus - as opposed to the distortions of the "Irreligious Right" - have everything to do with OWS.
Need I remind you that the main thrust of the teachings of Jesus - as of ALL of the Great Jewish Prophets - was SOCIAL JUSTICE?
tell what Jesus said that equates to "social justice" in the OWS sense?
Come now, you rich, weep and howl for the miseries that are coming upon you. Your riches have rotted and your garments are moth-eaten. Your gold and silver have corroded, and their corrosion will be evidence against you and will eat your flesh like fire. You have laid up treasure in the last days. Behold, the wages of the laborers who mowed your fields, which you kept back by fraud, are crying out against you, and the cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord of hosts. You have lived on the earth in luxury and in self-indulgence. You have fattened your hearts in a day of slaughter. -James 5:1-5
those are not Jesus' words...if you want to quote the letters of the Bible, how about this one:
2 Thessalonians 3:10: For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.
Jesus said to him, “If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.” -Matthew 19:21
nice edit.......that was about love of money over love of god......not "Social Justice" He didn't command Solomon or Abraham to sell their possessions......don't quote the bible out of context....
I was hungry. You did not give me food. I was thirsty. You did not give me a drink. I was a stranger. You did not take me in. I needed clothes. You did not give me any clothes. I was sick and in prison. You did not come to see me." Then they will also ask, "Lord, when did we see you hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or needing clothes, or sick, or in prison, and did not help you?" Then the King will answer them, "I tell you the truth. What you did not do for even the smallest of these, you did not do for me." -Matthew 25:42-45
13 “Therefore stay alert, because you do not know the day or the hour. 14 For it is like a man going on a journey, who summoned his slaves and entrusted his property to them. 15 To one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one, each according to his ability. Then he went on his journey. 16 The one who had received five talents went off right away and put his money to work270 and gained five more. 17 In the same way, the one who had two gained two more. 18 But the one who had received one talent went out and dug a hole in the ground and hid his master’s money in it. 19 After a long time, the master of those slaves came and settled his accounts with them. 20 The one who had received the five talents came and brought five more, saying, ‘Sir, you entrusted me with five talents. See, I have gained five more.’ 21 His master answered, ‘Well done, good and faithful slave! You have been faithful in a few things. I will put you in charge of many things. Enter into the joy of your master.’ 22 The one with the two talents also came and said, ‘Sir, you entrusted two talents to me. See, I have gained two more.’ 23 His master answered, ‘Well done, good and faithful slave! You have been faithful with a few things. I will put you in charge of many things. Enter into the joy of your master.’ 24 Then the one who had received the one talent came and said, ‘Sir, I knew that you were a hard man, harvesting where you did not sow, and gathering where you did not scatter seed, 25 so I was afraid, and I went and hid your talent in the ground. See, you have what is yours.’ 26 But his master answered, ‘Evil and lazy slave! So you knew that I harvest where I didn’t sow and gather where I didn’t scatter? 27 Then you should have deposited my money with the bankers, and on my return I would have received my money back with interest! 28 Therefore take the talent from him and give it to the one who has ten. 29 For the one who has will be given more, and he will have more than enough. But the one who does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. 30 And throw that worthless slave into the outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth’”
"A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard, and he came seeking fruit on it, and found none. He said to the vine dresser, ‘Behold, these three years I have come looking for fruit on this fig tree, and found none. Cut it down. Why does it waste the soil?’
Keeping Jesus out of government is the core problem not only of the USA but also of other governments of this world. This way money rules.
Although I don't think it is appropriate to make OWS a "religious" effort, it should be noted that leaders of many faiths have endorsed OWS - and offered practical support - because of a shared belief in core principles like social justice, economic fairness, compassion, shared sacrifice, etc. We can legitimately point out that Jesus was an advocate for the poor and oppressed - and an opponent of the corrupt, greedy status quo - without making this specifically a religious movement. And, since there are many right wing "Christians" who seem to have conveniently forgotten Jesus's position on these issues, I think it is fine to remind them now & then.
And leaders of non religions.
May I tell you something about the Gospel. It is about the Kingdom of God. God has send a King to this world to redeem and free the oppressed. He proved a leader who cannot be corrupted. Jesus proved it with His life. This Kingdom is there already. Jesus has all the power. He does not need endorsments because He is endorsed by the Creator. It is now up to us to submit and ride on his victorious train.
Gotta be laughing at the mess he left you in.
Now tell me one thing about His life teaching you don't like.
Only that every time he says something, it always sounds like your voice. Ever notice that? Hmmmm.
One thing about His life or teaching you don't like. Don't distract!
It is difficult if not impossible to disagree with the merit of any of the simple core ideas exemplified in Jesus's life or his specific teachings, because from what I can tell they are mostly encompassed by the ideals of hard work, self-sacrifice, looking out for those around you and lending a hand where needed, and doing your best not to judge those around you for the way they live their lives. I agree with all of those teachings, and even though I am not Christian I strive to uphold those ideals in my daily life.
The catch comes when all the trappings and all the dogma applied to any one sect of Christianity simply becomes hand-waved in as part of the "teachings of Jesus" when in reality it's merely a reflection of the personal norms and beliefs of whoever happens to be reading or interpreting the Bible at any given moment. As far as I'm concerned, organized religion is often more trouble than it's worth, and often far better at dividing people than it is at uniting them. I don't agree with the teachings of Jesus because I believe in God, the afterlife, or anything else; I agree with them because as far as I'm concerned they're profoundly useful and positive ideas to live by and by doing so I make this life better for myself and those around me.
Also, I don't like the idea of giving my life and my fate over to some sort of higher power, because I personally see it as a form of intellectual and moral laziness. If God will provide for me, and God will fix the world for me, and God's plan is inevitable, then what impetus do I have to do my part to make this world a better place? Where's my responsibility to strive for myself and for my fellow man, if some other entity (whom I conveniently can't see or hear or communicate with) is going to do all the striving for me, and setbacks and defeats can just be handwaved as God working in mysterious ways?
While I'm at it, what's the point of morality at all if it's simply a matter of obedience to some other magical being (whom again, I can't see or hear or communicate with and therefore must rely on myself or someone else to determine what He is or is not saying). The point of morality is that it is almost always based on certain general absolute principles, but then you have to determine for yourself how best to apply those principles to any given situation, and a lot of those situations are messy and murky and complicated and people can start in the same place and come to radically different conclusions about what's right for them on particular issues. If you're going to go through the process of coming to grips with who you are and what you value I don't really see the use of signing God's name to what is in the end your personal struggle, and often organized religion can become an exercise in control for church leaders and a road to easy answers where none exist for followers (which as far as I'm concerned is just bad news all around).
I just want to note that I don't believe that all organized religion is or must be this, or that all religious people are morally lazy or narrow-minded and rigid, or that all church leaders are power-hungry or hypocritical, and if the preceding rant was offensive to anyone I sincerely apologize. My point is that there are many valid reasons for intelligent, honorable people to look somewhere besides God for guidance, and talking about how we all need to get on God's train or whatever the new colloquialism for conversion is if we want the country to succeed is flat-out offensive and demeaning and needs to stop.
Thank you for your thoughts. I wonder whether you agree to this: It is too much for a human to change the world so that all unrighteousness, greed and evil will be gone. I can do a little but it is not enough. Therefore I put my trust in God who alone can deal with all evil.
I do not believe that any one human can change things so dramatically that all evil will be gone. I also believe that no single sentient being, deity or otherwise, can accomplish such a feat because it is in fact too great to ever fully complete. That said, while I cannot eliminate all evil across the world or even necessarily in my own community, I can at least do my best to diminish it in both my personal life and in my interactions with others.
Further, I place my trust in the threshold effect; while no one person can make much more than a small dent in the amount of evil in the world, if enough people pitch in and do their own personal best to diminish pain and suffering around them, then we can reduce it to a fairly tolerable level overall. Once that happens, perfect goodness will become like perfect knowledge; we can never truly achieve it but we can always strive for it and the journey brought about by striving for it will make a far better species of man than having it simply handed to him by an outside being would.
I believe that it is possible for God to get rid of evil. Just look what happened 2000 years ago. There was a man who did no evil and he was crucified. He overcame evil with good. He died but not invane. Because this way he provided for a sacrifice for all evil people. The evil people can now repent receive forgiveness based on this sacrifice and then God gives them a new spirit and a new heart.
This is the miracle of the Gospel. That God gives a new heart and mind and this way only men will change.
exactly!
The problem with religion is that people involve in it can become fanatics due to influence of charismatic preachers who infuse their own doctrine, belief and opinions and used the scriptures on a legalistic basis rather than the simple teaching of Love. If Satan can misled and deceive us, he can do that easily through religion. As for me I do not need religion to seek God.
how can you expect someone's worldview to not be included when making political decisions?
Good point
If you walk through the valley of the shadow of death, and you fear no evil, then why are you not giving you location on this site?
I am living in Bavaria, Germany.
Agreed. Everyone has different religions, some have none at all, and none of that needs to be a part of this movement or a government for ALL people.
Agreed. Religion is a special interest just like corporations and unions. None should have any more influence on our elected officials than I do.
Yeah we should eliminate religion from government but not God, the problem is that due to lack of God, his guidance and intervention that we are plague by evil. God just leaves us alone as we please unless we specifically ask him to intervene with our lives. We can never have true lasting peace and happiness without Him. Religion has made it worse by presenting God in an annoying manner that is why people hate religion. To be with God is just simple and does not need complexities the way religion suggest with their almost legalistic Bible studies and debate, etc. They are under the influence of the dark forces. Satan is clever enough to deceive us turning religion to work in his favor.
God / Religion needs to be between you and your God no one else. The separation of Church and State is one of the most important Constitutional Protections all of us have. And don't you ever forget it.
God and/or religion isn't the issue. The issue is that special interest groups are buying our elected officials.
God gave us a fantastic brain to survive on this Earth, but if we are too stupid to change the world for the betterment of ourselves and we succeed in bringing about our own extinction or even to rid ourselves of the present form of suffering then it does not matter to God. God has countless millions of other planets in the infinite Universe where other just as beautiful and intelligent life is evolving. I doubt God would miss the people on this planet. We are microbes on a rock floating in Space.
you can't change the world, you can only live in it, and you can't change others, you can only inspire them to change......the ONLY change you can make in the world is how you see it, and how you operate within it's parameters......this was the teaching of Christ, not how to change others but how to change yourself first and inspire others.....
Jesus didn't shrink from lowly labors, or have expectations of entitlement....and he was appreciative of the things he was given and used them to the fullest....
You OWS-er's might want to take a lesson.....
Also there is the other small issue -religion is just bs. Stupid incoherent violent fairy tales. Let us focus on real issues.
Many in the 99% are deeply religious people. Religion isn't the issue; institutionalized political graft is the issue.
Thus the problem with OWS as you can see by the responses you see above. If you have religion, you don't belong in OWS (certainly not the view of a majority of the 99%).
Yes. Its ok as long as it doesnt affect legislature.
Religion is the "opiate of the masses" because it exhorts the faithful to consider this world as already lost and to make no efforts to save it because a better world awaits them in heaven. And that it is okay to commit evil because your religion forgives you and pats you on the back to continue. That would be the zombies you see walking everywhere. People like Boehner, Cantnor, Ryan, McConnell and Wall Street types in NYC. Also the many smug and complacent citizens of America. We all know people like that. Some even post here to spout off words spoken to them by the devil itself. That is why when we read their posts they sound so repulsive. El Diablo as troll.
oh before I forget, totally agree; keep religon out of government
I kind of agree that we shouldn't use "we" yet here I am using "we" and I did it before, when I was telling someone that WE are all founders of OWS (I apolized for being preachy) verbage here gets a litle tricky, guess I'll have to think about how we can deal with that..just kidding....back to the post, you know I think the person has a point, states it well and I welcome the discussion, but that's just me
Jesus wasn't such a bad guy though.
yea - just like the communists. then god is replaced by government. the government becomes your savior. the government decides what rights you have instead of the inalienable rights endowed by your creator. Nice going .
How about separation between State and Corporation? Religion isn't a bad thing to keep in the movement. Crazy ass right wing christian-- yeah keep them out. But most religion at their core are directly opposed to what greed directs the .001 percent hedge fund mangers to do when they gamble without heart trillions in tax payer money away while they collect the profits; and the 99 percent pays for the losses. Morality is a good thing.
I think there is a difference between talking about a person who was trying to teach Universal Morality as opposed to Religion which has nothing to do with what the person Jesus was talking about. I am an atheist but I certainly do appreciate the concepts that Jesus was attempting to teach. And those concepts are useful in attempting to re-construct a government..a government based on real compassion.
Jesus would say: 'ABOLISH MONEY." he sent his disciples out without money, said, "U can't serve God & money" ("But the Pharisees who loved money heard all this and scoffed" -- Luke 16) and upset the tables of the moneychangers.
NOW HEAR THIS: Corporate Tall by VOLTFACE - a song about Wall Street Greed. Wonderfully appropriate! Its the Anthem we needed!
Listen for FREE on BANDCAMP:
http://voltface.bandcamp.com/track/corporate-tall
Available on iTunes as well...
I agree. I do, however, want us to promote non-partisanship, religious tolerance, racial/gender/age/economic justice, so that ALL may feel included. We are taking on the most powerful entity in the world and if we want economic justice and debt fairness, we need to be inclusive of everyone who is for us.
We need to include God. However it is better to say we need to be on God's side.
I think their just trying to reference people who say their Christian but don't go by Jesus's word
Thank you!
I agree wholeheartedly all who agree say I
Speaking in the name of...Is lying !
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrPGVbmh8LM
After thinking about this demand for a while I can see a fundamental consequence of it. It has backed the very abuse OWS tires to overcome. Because it excuses the powerful to submit to the just laws of God which would have hindered them to do what they have done. God is the only perfectly righteous one with a set of reighteous laws. These laws protect the poor BUT they also protect from other vices. Now the powerful have made the masses drunk with partly allowing the vices of the 99%. Because why do you not want God in here. Because His law would also cut down on your unrighteousness. So if you have this objection you drink of the same spirit those people drink whoes unrighteousness you want to stop now.
Again, if the discussion of Jesus is something akin to Jesus saying stand with the common man, fuck it...bring it on. I don't care why you support OWS, so long as you support us. Let us argue over the specifics of what our clean and Democratic society will be like after we've cleaned out the elections and regulated the private sector's influence on the public sector and public in general are.
And btw, I'm one of those wishy washy agnostic atheist types, so don't think I just came from church. But if we can have the black flag sit beside outright socialists and have marxists eat with Ron Paul libertarians and talk about what dicks cops can be, etc...we can make room for some Jesus freaks who share our common vision of a government free from corruption and a under/middle class that can trust its own society.
Have you considered the history of nations? Revolutioni follows revolution because the replacing system turns out to be corrupt again. That is why Jesus is not just one group besiedes others. He is the only solution.
I understand that you are bringing religious fervor to this, therefore believe wholly that your religious convictions are not only good for everyone, but necessary, but Christian Dominionism is as bad as corporatocracy.
Why? Because the poor would be helped by release of all debt. In the future no interest on debt. Redistribution of basic wealth. I wonder what I did wrong that you do not see the huge difference. Jesus is on the side of the poor. He has proved it with His life.
I don't argue against Christians standing with the movement. I'm all for it. If you are an individual or group with the belief that ordinary people should not go hungry while a gilded elite revel in their accumulated, concentrated and underhandedly gained wealth, and that a nation should be subject to more than simply its greediest and wealthiest's desires, I say come on board. But to attempt to use this movement as a way to grow one's sect, faction or religion is itself underhanded. You will find a good deal of thiests and athiests alike in this movement and will probably not find your message of love and peace through Christ as readily accepted as you may hope. However for what its worth, any message of love and peace is cool with me.
I am sure you will agree that the root of the problem of WallSt is a lack of love for others. But if are honest the lack of love does not end with them. A society will only work in the long run when there is equal love. So we do not need a stimulue of money, but of love. So where do we get it. It is only God who can provide for it. The Christion religion is the only one offering that.
Well no, Christianity isn't the only religion offering "God" or "love." They pretty much all do that in one way or another. And I don't agree that its a "lack of love" that necessarily creates and sustains our current problems.
I'd say that its greed and the promotion of greed as a virtue, by a ruling gilded class and institutions which themselves, are not human, and exist solely to acquire greater amounts of wealth and power. Love all you like, love isn't going to topple that machine
I think you can look at things in terms of fear and love. Greed comes from insecurity, its like the fear of not having enough leading to a lust for more money; but if you love yourself and others then it doesn't really matter what you have in life.
Kinda fluffy, kinda simplistic, but I bet a lot of these politicians put on a good show but are really scared little creatures overcompensating for something they lack in their private lives.
I completely disagree that the Christian Religion has some kind of monopoly on love tho, that's a bit pretentious. You don't need religion for love.
Love is stronger than death. Don't err.
What you seek is wisdom. What you need is wisdom because you go against one of the biggest powers in the world. Zeal without wisdom makes you fall. Why do you want to exclude something that has transformed large parts of the world already by wisdom?
Our Founding Fathers knew about popes and kings being in bed together since the wealth was amassed in the Catholic Church in England and then confiscated to the Church of England. That is the meaning of separation of church and state.
The Founding Fathers are not on my list on how to set up a system working that works for the poorest as well. They uphold slavery and partly kept slaves themselves.
So how come the Founding Fathers kept slaves and set up the base of your problem today. True Christianity stands up for the law of God, which is not to take interest, to release people of debt and so on. It is true that people have acted in the name God denying his laws that protect the poor from the rich. The Founding Fathers are not on my list of wisdom I can learn from when it comes to protecting the poor against riches. They have uphold slavery and partly kept slaves themselves. Don't expect them to set up a system that brings justice to the poor.
You are correct. Our Founding Fathers wanted to keep religion out of government and many of the people who came to this continent in the 1600s and 1700s wanted to escape religious persecution. After all this time we still have to remain vigilant to keep religion separate from the state. On top of that, we have to separate business and state too.
Keeping religion out means keeping God out - means keeping any help for healing the core issue out. Which is: A fundamental lack of love. Not only on the side of WallSt but also on the side of rest of us, the 99%. Yes Wallmart did destroy many mom and pop stores, destroying a middle class and producing few Billioneers and a million or so who work for money that so little that they can hardly make it or not make it with a family. But who bought there? Us. We are not without guilt for the rise of the giants. Still they have profited for many many years and it should end.
Therefore the root problem is an increasing general lack of love. Therfore if you replace a system caused by lack of love the new system will develp to the same if there has not been a stimulus of love for the people. God is love and the only one who has enough to set a up a "tarp" programm of stimulating love. Look at Jesus and his selfless life and most of all His selfless sacrifice of His body. There you see a stimulus of love.
You may practice the religion of your choice on your own time but don't bring it here. For all of the good intentions, it only brings strife. Begone.
Since thousands of years by and large people have done exactly what you have said and over and over again the powerful rigged the system. I am not contend with that. One question: If you had a choice of getting a treuly righteous system that does not forget the cause of the poor would you be willing to let religion in or would you rather keep religion out and have the poor be fogotten?
We tried the whole "let the Church rule", it was called the Dark Ages. Let's try letting the People rule. Remove Market AND Religious control of our Government and simply let it Govern the people as it should without self serving Fundamentalists of Greed and Corruption appointing their 'chosen' leaders.
I agree that one of the worst things is the abuse of religion. It happened to a horrible degree at the time of Martin Luther. People claiming to be the vicars of Christ or his priests robbed money from the poor by selling them time out for the what called purgetory. Yes, but the reason for this was not the teaching of Christ but there evil heart. Martin Luther set that right and changed Europe. So in fact those people who abused religion did govern by themselves. The spirit they ruled in is the same you want to rule in, apart from God the only one truly taking up the cause of the poor.
I live a faithful life. I am Christian but, Christ preached about tolerance. You can not be tolerant of other people's views if you yourself push your own views on them. I respect your desire for a Utopian Christian society, I do. However, Religion is a divider in this country not a unifier. The various factions of faith (within the Christian church alone, not even counting the other faiths) are so fractured that they could not agree on the color of shit. They are a bigger mess than the Democrats and Republicans who often argue and disagree just because they have to disagree and argue with the other side.
I share your frustration about the fragmentation and the strive. Yes and even in the Christian world there are hundreds of different denominations. But this is not the work of God. Jesus prayed that we be one. We can see that there is a dire need for that. But I am afraid that we disagree on the way to unity. I believe that God will bring unity through His Spirit. As with all things we humans do not have the moral capacity to do what is right and good in the long run. For a time it is possible to forget about the differences and not talk about it. But you cannot keep up with this for long and then you have to do it all over again. Can you imagine that God can bring unity to our mess?
I will pray for God to take over. Until then, I will have to fight for our freedom from oppression. "Rise and Rise again until the Lambs become Lions and the Lions become Lambs."
Let us work for justice but not with the same spirit of the people we have to go against. It will become the well know back and forth. Let us break this vicious cirlcle like Martin Luther King. Love is a force that is stronger than death. Look to Jesus who prayed for the very people who abused him and even killed Him. And look what success he has already in the world. Millions of followers. And the prophecy is that eventually all the nations will come to him to be taught His ways.
Your point is unclear. We have to stand up against oppression. Until God himself descends from the heavens and implements his rule over the land, we will have to govern ourselves. To that ends, I plan on fighting for the freedoms that we all deserve, as peacefully as possible.
I actually believe that all in all God governs us anyway all the time. So you are right in saying we have to govern but it is also right to say let God govern. The peace will come when both parts involved God and man have reconciled and govern in the same Spirit.
Well clearly that is not happening now. You can not obey Money and God at the same time right? So we have to cast off the influence of Money. But, then, we enter a paradox. If God 'is' Governing us all the time then he wanted and controlled the various horrible tyrannical societies of history? Sadam Hussien had God whispering in his ear and controlling his hand? We should just roll over and 'let' God govern us? Your biblical rhetoric doesn't really work.
You have hit one of the toughest question to answer. Wisdom says; The LORD has made everything for his own purposes, even the wicked for a day of disaster. Does that help you?
Oh no core agenda's. How about a Power Point presentation and a little tofu.
The core agenda is: Year of release: Cancelation of all debt. Redistribution of basic wealth. Every 7 years cancelation of debt. No interest on debt. Prayer to God for a stimulus of love desperately needed for any future society, because the lack of love is the root for the crisis, and God the only one able to provide this.
Firstly no god however lets pretend there is. Some people will say god is 5.11 other people will say he is 6.1 it would start with angry words and end up with people bombing each other.
Why is it so? Because God is schizophrenic or because men are liars and lie about everything including God. And with or without talking about God they start bombing each other. That is why there is a need that God helps us.
Tell me one reason why the laws of God are bad. No interest on debt. Release people of debt. Redestribution of basic wealth. Why have you not come up with these things. That is the reason why religion needs to be in here. Because God is the only one who truley defends the poor.
I wish you well you are a friendly man and in some ways I wish I could share your god delusion. Like believing fairy's live in the bottom of the garden. Good luck with everything leaving this board shortly makes me feel worst bunch of kids with no goals. Almost like sitting down and demanding a better wheel
True conviction is based on searching, meditating and gathering knolwedge concerning the issue. My conviction of these things developed when I started searching for the truth, reading the Bible, meditating about it, questioning it and receiving answers from the source of truth God. Just start reading the Bible from beginning to end and you will see - if you want to - the beauty of the Word of God and its truth.
don't for get 4 wives!
What do you mean?
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Ever heard of Enoch ?
There is a difference between "keeping religion out of government" and "keeping the government from forcing religion". Read the constitution. Besides, you cannot tell someone that is going to hold office they must stop believing in something. That is a violation of their rights. Being a public christian and believing and surrounding yourself with christianity while in office is, however, in no way violating anyone's rights.
Agreed if anything given the damage religion is doing in government now we should strengthen separation of church and state by requiring anyone who runs for office to state if they are a member of any religion. If the answer is Yes then they can not run for office.
I believe it was Ben Franklin who said it best that the separation of Church and would have to be a requirement because through out history when ever the 2 are combined one corrupts the other, and so both must remain separate, and will be better off for it. (not an exact quote I am sorry going off memory)
History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes.
-Thomas Jefferson to Alexander von Humboldt, Dec. 6, 1813.
But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.
-Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782
Proof the Right wing Christians are here to hate and destroy using their failed propaganda that has not worked for 2,000 years. If did would we all be in this mess?
The only time you get this many people responding is if Christians post a What Would Jesus Do crap, more proof they are not here responding to the more important points but to further their own agenda, over throw of the government to make a Christian dictatorship using the bible to rule the world, into a real living hell. I know some of you can figure this out, see how many Christians respond to Christian post, it is very plain to see. Over 600 replies to Christian post but the more important post about the OWS movement, maybe a few post or more. Face it the Christians are using you to take over, wake up fools, they are not there for you but only to use you to get what they want, a crazy Christian Dictatorship that will kill everybody not one of them nuts.
I told you the Jesus Freaks were here trying to set up their Christian dictatorship. Heil Jesus.
Who is the unrighteous dictator of the world? Did Jesus set up a banking system when He was on earth or did He not drive out the money changers in the temple and live in poverty? Was he rigged by lobbyist or did He not attack the elite of His time. Did he charge 30% on debt or was he not willing to forgive debt. Be careful what authority you choose. There is none more merciful and benevolent than Jesus, the King of Kings
Jesus is a mad man dictator like Hitler.
Have facts a chance to be considered in your judgement. Please think of what you say. Why do you want to ignore reality? What is the issue?
Jesus was a hippie, he never worked... (and was born at 30')
Jesus would not have set up a dictatorship. His approach was the complete opposite. Marx, though, would have set up a dictatorship of the proletariat. Unfortunately, the proletariat was representative of the working class, not the unskilled wage slave. He called them the Lumpenproletariat. Like a Starbucks barista, they were of no use to the revolution.
Who Is Greatest
Luke 22:24-30
22/24
the indents
the scroll box should disappear
I don't understand what this means. What do think Jesus is settting up?
The only time Jesus Christ was angry was when he chased the moneylenders out of the temple. Main Street Americans are angry and want to chase the moneylenders out of our government and out of our lives. In God we trust, but that trust does not extend to those who would do us harm. May God protect us and may God bless America.
And then? The rule of money sit deeper than that according to my overservation when I lived in the US for almost 5 years, Don't you agree?
jesus preached treat others as you want to be treated - golden rule! He wants man and woman to evolve and the only way we do that is to evoke change for all the right reasons. All of us protesters - protest in the name of all that is right, just and equal. Jesus isn't here right now in flesh and blood. If he were he'd be sitting with all of us.
And would preach to you the same thing that you must repent and follow Him. All men are sinners. Not only Wall Street.
he and oh so many other prophets all preached do not judge lest you be judged right along with them.
Repentance is the basic theme of every true Gospel preacher. You will agree on that, I am sure.
There are plenty of coherent, well intended and morally desirable philosophies besides Christianity. If any of them were followed sincerely by all people great and small, the world's problems would disappear. But they never have been, at least since the beginning of civilization and the tolerance of uneven distribution of the stuff of life.
So sure, if we were all sincere Christians, our problems would be solved.
The problem with the subjunctive is its disconnect from the reality.
The reality is it takes communities to produce what we want and need but a few individuals take it all for themselves and call it private property.
The reality is that humans are too evil to all act right. And therefore only Jesus can bring salvation because He can overcome humans and make them good. Do you believe that?
most humans are good
Please show me one who can say that he has cleansed his heart and is free from any evil?
it's not a purity test
If someone is good he must be pure in heart.
good people help each other
purity has nothing to do with it
if you love your neighbor as yourself you must have purity in heart.
right on man - the system promotes greedy people
"If Jesus saves, then he'd better save himself . . . from the gory glory seekers, who use his name in death!" "I don't believe you. You got the whole damn thing all wrong! He's not the kind you have to wind up on Sundays."
Plaese bear with me. I do understand what you mean?
no!
the Bible even says. That there is no human that is good.
the bible says many things - lots of them pretty horrific should we discuss what the bible says. how about this one - I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man;[a] she must be quiet.
What is horrific about it? It is a rule that hurts noone.
and this - it's ok also - Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man intimately. But all the girls who have not known man intimately, spare for yourselves. Numbers 31:17-18
What is your goal? To make God look unjust? Truth is that all humans are unjust and God is the only one good. In order to judge God you need His knowledge. But I do not have his knowledge. If you do not have God's knowledge how can you judge Him. What do you know about these people the law you cited is talking about? And if you do not know anything why do you want to judge?
unlike you i do have god's knowledge - the god you seem to like - the old testament god is unjust and evil. i could site too many instances but your answer would always be the same. so believe what you like but do not ask me to buy into that obvious nonsense
If you say the God of the New Testament is different. How can this be? Has God changed His mind over the years?
Apparently. Have you read both books?
Yes, I did and there is no change at all. In God there is no change. I see it this way that in the New Testament the scope of eternity has been fully opened. This includes judgement. People who do not believe will be thrown into hell for eternity. Therefore God is to be feared in the New Testament as well.
i thought jesus preached peace and love but maybe i was misinformed. seems to me you see what you want to see. i see two different gods jesus and yahweh
But how can God change His mind? God knows everything which includes things in the future. Do you believe that?
he can change his mind if he is made up by silly humans - or he can change his mind because he wants to. maybe he realized he was a vengeful hateful shit before the time of jesus and thought "I can do better" - I would hope that was the reason no? he vengeful evil shit in the old days a s no? look what he did to poor job and then that thing with lot - pretty bad towards women - you must agree - do you know why lot was saved?
What would Jesus think of Occupy Wall Street 2 years later?
I like this question. Thanks. I think he would think: "Mammon is too strong for you. With God everything is possible but not without Him."
So, God is money for some people.
Yes. It is written: Col 3:5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth;...and covetousness, which is idolatry:
Jesus was revolutionary, egalitarian, anti-materialist whose only quoted act of violence was to "turn over the Money Changers' Tables and throw them out of The Temple".
So, re. what he'd have done and said about OWS - Go Figure !!!
"Ecce Homo" et fiat lux ...
You have knowledge. Are you a Christian?
M@tthias : No ... but I know plenty of decent, loving, compassionate and 'heart-centred' people who are but alas, NOT everyone who professes 'The Nicene Creed' has these qualities !!
I have by dint of blood ties and marriages, Atheists ; Agnostics ; Christians ; Jews and Muslims in my family. I do not myself subscribe to any of 'The Abrahamics' due to the mumbo-jumbo ; inclination for 'linear time perception' and the propensity to internecine violence and doctrinal dogmatism. I subscribe to 'Eastern Ideas', especially 'Buddistic' meta-physics and notions of the 'spiralling of time and events'.
Tschus Matthias. I end there as I've said too much here (or not enough?!) on this Socio-Political Justice and Peace site !
et tempus fugit ...
If you have contact with so many religions you will have noticed that Jesus plays a hugely different role. We Christians say He is the Son of God. The "Jews" (there are Messianic Jews as well, but I don't know what else to write) deny Him being the Messiah. The Moslems deny His claim to be the King of Kings and the rest anyways. So what do you think of Jesus Christ?
M@ttias : Jesus = A Man and probably a Spiritually Gifted man ; who was possibly of Davidic Royal Linneage ; who would have been a practising and believing Jew ; who would have been scandalised and outraged IF Anyone thought that HE was consubstantiate with HaShem ; The Teragrammaton ; YHWH ; Jehova or G_d !!!
Re."The Moslems deny His claim to be the King of Kings and the rest anyways", I don't really know what that means but did you know that Muslims also believe in :
a) The OT Prophets Adam, Abraham, Isaac, Ishmael, Joseph, Moses, David et al ;
b) The OT, The Book of Psalms and The NT as 'Divinely Revealed Scriptures' ;
c) The Archangels Gabriel, Raphael, Michael, Azrael and other angels ;
d) The 'Virgin Birth' of Jesus (Isa) from Mary after 'divine visitation' ;
e) The Prophethood of Jesus AND John The Baptist ;
f.) The 'Holy Nature' of Mary ;
g) That Jesus Did Not Die An Earthly Death ;
h) That Jesus was 'Ascended Unto G_d's Pressence' &
i.) That Jesus "Will Return Before the End Of Days" ?
But hey ! Do NOT just take my word for it ; RESEARCH !! Or ask a Muslim and ask yourself WHY you do not yourself know of these rather important congruences and finally, Matthias - ask yourself :
Do You Really Believe That You Can Have Unique Access To Eternal Metaphysical, Spiritual and Universal TRUTHS ; Merely By Dint Of The Accident Of Birth, Cultural Upbringing & Mere Received Education ?!!
My perception of your 'Christianical Exceptionalism' will now probably preclude any further exchange though I do nevertheless extend to you and yours, ALL the very best wishes of Hanukkah ; Yuletide ; Solstice ; Christmas and The New Year & as for 2012, when ... well, we'll just have to wait and see ;-)
Oremus - pax, amor et lux ; hic et ubique ; nunc et semper ...
Thanks. I wish you all the best as well.
Also, consider that - ''A grave responsibility lies with the different religious traditions to give spiritual guidance and a clear message, particularly on the questions of economic injustice, ‘armed resistance‘, arms, militarism and war.'' From ..
tschuss ...
"The love of money is a root of all evil" = radix omnium malorum est cupiditas !
Und .. "Ich wünsche Dir ein Frohes Weihnachtsfest. Möge Gott Dich segnen."
pacem in terris ...
Vielen Dank. Möge Er Dich auch Segen mit Frieden und Gnade.
Islam was invented in the 7th century . Why does it claim that Moses,and Abraham were prophets of islam? Adam and David are not considered to be prophets in the OT.
Please do NOT seek any dialogue with me about When Judaism, Christianity or Islam were 'invented' or How or by Whom OR Who believes in What ; as I'm Not Really Interested in you or your easily to detect Islamophobia and casual Judeo-Centricism. Happy Hanukkah & Shalom Aleichem ;-)
islam has been at war with the civilized world ever since it was invented. Have a nice day.
My, that must make you and your 'knowledge of things' 1400 years old ! Your name isn't "Avery Ben Methuselah", is it because NOW I'm suddenly intrigued by your Earthly Longevity and 'wisdom' ;-) Shalom ...
I gather English is a second language for you.
L0L ! So much for your ability to "gather" !! Your posts here, speak volumes in many languages !!!
I was right. English is a second language for you. "L0L"? Did you mean LOL?
ilol! (now C if U can D-cypher thAt!) Shal0mmm~~{;-)
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Greetings from the dessert god, pie allah mode. Or is he the lunch god, chicken allah king?
Happy Hanukkah 'avery' and as you seem to be 'a very' confused and / or bigoted person, then during this Christmas, Yule and New Year, please don't over do the alcohol OR mix it with your 'Troll-o-lol' ;-)
He rebelled against the religious authorities.
Is that what the then prevailing 'political' authorities' (Pax Romana) also thought ?
Didn't 'The Sanhedrin' AND 'The Imperium' both feel threatened by him ?!
ad iuducium ...
They did not encourage cult uprisings.
They killed Jesus and they'll do it again.
I think you are right. Rght now there are fast parts of the world where Christians are persecuted and put to death becaue of Christ. May I ask you a personal question? I am German and your username looks German. How come?
Germans are ubercool: Mozart, Hasselhoff, Merkel, Einstein-
But do you know what caput or kaputt mean?
Caput means head.
So are you are Christian?
Vielleicht nein, aber 'uber oder unter', er ist 'Kaput' ... und Ein Dummkopf ! Tschuss ;-)
Bist Du ein Landsmann/frau?
Nein, mein freund. Ich bin ein Englander, aber ich spreche ein wenig Deutsch !
Haben ein Frohes Weihnachtsfest, Matthias und jetzt - tschuss mein freund ;-)
Ich wünsche Dir auch ein Frohes Weihnachtsfest. Möge Gott Dich segnen.
Who killed Jesus?
I don't know.
Perhaps ( among many other things ) something similar to this tweet?
DKAtoday @DKAtoday · 16s
@ EVERYONE
People before profits
Environment before profits
Health in ALL things before profits
Export Peace NOT weapons
Shift The Paradigm
Jesus, the King of Kings, before Mammon (Profit, Riches)
OH MY GOD - Have you got a mountain to climb!!!
What do you mean?
If Jesus even existed and it wasn't a story of Mithras that was around since ancient Babylonian times. And, if the biblical story is anything like what happened after the Catholic Church was done rewriting much of it and excluding many books that threatened the Church's power. Then I think Jesus would still say it would be easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than a rich man to enter the gates of heaven. There was also some little thing about a god called mammon, money, and the true god, spirit. Jesus, or Yeheshua as his real name was, said that man can't serve two masters, you will either love one and hate the other. There was no in between that I could remember.
You are very right in saying: hat man can't serve two masters, you will either love one and hate the other. There was no in between that I could remember. Thanks
Let's take religion out of our study of Jesus since while Jesus was alive, there was no Christian religion. Jesus, the man, activist and dissenter would be quite pleased with OWS because it he did the same exact thing as the OWSers- ironically for the same reasons! Jesus, like Moses, took an honorable stand against corruption. Here's a well written and very beautiful essay written about the greatest leaders to stand up against corruption and you don't need to subscribe to any dogma in order to appreciate this: http://www.futureofchildren.net/pdfs/Mandeep-Bedi-essay.pdf
But what about God. Is He in control and do you need Him for any change?
Hello Mathias, Is God in control? I believe so but allow me to explain that a bit more. There is a Divinely created natural state or harmony in our world. It's simply perfect and it works until humans screw it up. Why do we screw it up? Because we have egos that are easily tempted, misled and corrupted by greed, competitive mindsets, money, appearances, etc... We have free will to do with our personal things and the earth as we choose and we have free will to believe anything we choose. There are consequences for all our choices. I believe in God but I've also realized in 50 years that what I consider to be God is relative to my own personal beliefs and religious practice. Now, when I say religion, I am not referring to any organization other than how I organize my thoughts and live my daily life. Religion is our spiritual character put into action ( in my opinion). I believe that there is a Divine natural order or state of the universe and that when we align our personal character with that natural order then we are awakening that awareness and goodness in others. It's humans, I believe, that interrupt the harmony and so it's up to us to restore it. I believe that meditation and prayer are powerful. I pray every day for the activists because I know in my heart that they are doing the right thing whether they believe in God or not. Even the athiest activists behave as if they believe in God so maybe they just have a different name for God. God is social justice, love, peace, non violence, honesty, integrity, light and darkness, nature and all good and naturally occurring states of being. Maybe some folks haven't realized their own Divine nature yet. But, they do know that what is happening to this earth and it's peoples is a " sin" and needs to be rectified asap. So, I guess the way I see it is that we are all created from the same Divine source of goodness and as long as our goal in life is to preserve, nurture and restore the goodness and natural harmony, then we're fine. But, believing in anything greater than ourselves- hence, that Divine source, then in whatever we do, there is that added passion or juice in our efforts.
Do we need God for change? Well, since I believe that God or the Divine source resides in each of us, then yes, we need each other for change and we not look outside of ourselves to find that source of courage, strength, and integrity. It's been there all along and by praying, we are allowing ourselves to tap into that divine place in ourselves. Even the most corrupt have that ability to change but they won't until they realize they have chosen to ignore their own divine nature. When I pray to God, I am asking for guidance, I am asking for wisdom and asking for the courage to put into action all that I know is right and good. I pray that these brave activists will not be harmed by an ignorant authority who lacks the courage to do the right thing. I believe that our prayers send Divine energy around the world. So, we've got to stay focused on goodness and not allow anyone else's anger, bitterness and negativity to interrupt the goodness in our hearts. Every morning I light a candle and say a prayer for the the activists. I think everyone should do that whether they are believers, agnostics, athiests or aliens. We need to put the power of positive thinking into our world once again.
Thanks for your reply. You must have thought about these issues a lot. But how does the rescue of the Isarelites from Egypt fit into your thoughts. God performed mighty miracles like hail, darkness and the death of the firstborn while Israel was protected? Moses said that God commanded him to do speak to the Pharao and the miracles are in my eyes more than our inner self can produce. How do you see that?
Mathias, I don't mean to discount the miracles written about in the Bible in any way but I try not to focus too much on the specific events in the parables other than to reap some wisdom from them. I have found a lot of contradictions in the Bible and given that the Bible was interpreted and translated by man, I realize that this is to be expected. I use the Bible and other Holy books as guides and sources of inspiration but I must admit that I'm not a devout reader. I'm not sure exactly what you are asking me but If I were Moses, I would have done everything I could to rescue the Jews from slavery. Moses was not perfect though. He killed an Egyptian who was abusing a slave and as a result of that more violence and chaos ensued. Moses was not wrong to feel compassion for the Jewish slave but he was not wise enough then to seek a more peaceful path to the ultimate exodus. God wants us to know that anger begets anger, war begets war, hatred begets hatred and likwise, love begets love, peace begets peace. There will always be despotic rulers and corrupt leaders in our world and there will always be people who appreciate nothing anyone does for them. But, we must stay true to the Divine nature that lives within us and not allow our egos to succumb to violence to fight violence. We must not allow ourselves to ever think that we alone are the source of miracles. Remember when Moses was fed up with the Hebrews and struck the rock to produce water for them? The Hebrews were greedy, self absorbed in their own miserable plight and the only time they behaved was in the presence of Moses ( sort of like some Christians who pretend to be so during church service). So, anyway, God became angry with Moses for striking that rock because in that moment, Moses had allowed his ego to take over and give the illusion that the miracle came from himself and not God. In other words, he was mocking God's power. Moses became wiser though and despite his temporary ' crimes', he ultimately knew that he was only a man, just like all other men on earth and he always defended the rights of the the Hebrews despite their misgivings and lack of appreciation for all that God had provided for them. That story reminds me so much of our world today.
What I don't understand: You must have read a lot in the Bible. And in it God is an independent moral being who has great power and intervenes sovereignly. So how can you reconcile this with saying that we have to fix it when God says He will fix it by sending a savior.
Have you ever heard the Jewish phrase, " Tikkun Olam"? It means ' repairing the world'. I believe that as a human, I have the ethical responsibility to be aware and conscience of my world and to become God's partner in the work of our creation. Do a little research on Tikkun Olam. I've read a lot of books on this topic this year. One of my favorite books is called, " To Heal a Fractured World" by Rabbi Sacks. I think you would truly enjoy it and value it.
Please answer this thought I have written before: Now I think we disagree on one major issue. Correct me if I am wrong. Man's moral capacity is too week to turn the evil in the world around. In fact he is the source of evil and not good. WHereas God is the source of God and without His intervention by transforming man through His Holy Spirit it will not change to the better. You think that man is good enough to cleanse his heart himself. Am I correct?
My moral capacity is not to weak to turn evil around in the world. By simply living a moral life, I am indeed positively influencing the world and hopefully, cleansing the hearts of some others who may have needed some inspiration. Whether or not I ever know if I've made a positive difference is irrelevant to me. What I do know is that I have two choices- to either model love or hate. It's a pretty simple choice for me.
Then you are a lot better than me. I cannot say that I have to moral capacity to act based on pure equal love all the days of my life. I need Jesus to restore my heart and soul to a pure love. I am corrupted by pride, folly, jealousy, envy and pride, too name some.
Gosh, that sounds pretty miserable and sad. You spend so much time worshiping and yet you feel so insecure? But, it doesn't matter what you're negative characteristics are at the moment if you realize what is wrong and then pursue healing and to rectify your mistakes. I really try my best not to be a repeater. If the world were perfect and we were perfect then there would be no need for life really. Life is all about experiences and lessons learned. How else can we grow and become worthy of being a great spiritual teacher? Life would be so boring too if everyone were perfect. Cut yourself some slack and work on mending on those egocentric thoughts and behaviors. God loves you anyway because He knows that you have the power to change anything you don't like about yourself. He graced you with that option :D
God works through the Gospel to build an everlasting Kingdom. You must be born again to be part of it. Flesh is flesh but His Kingdom is spiritual und you must be born of the Spirit. His Word is Spirit. So read John and you will hopefully see what I try to explain.
No, I don't read a lot of the Bible. But, I've read some of it, the Torah too. The activists are doing God's work/ God works through them whether it's in their nature to believe that or not.
I believe that it is a misunderstanding for anyone to think that they can just sit idly by and expect a single savior to arrive one day and save them from despair- that is apathy and apathy is a sin. For one thing, if that is what God wanted you to do, he would tell you WHEN the savior would be arriving but then if you knew, you might behave like the Hebrews and only behave in the knowing. Faith is not based on anything certain. Faith is living with integrity of upholding the laws of God while you are here on this earth. The whole point is that we are to behave like saviors until the savior arrives and not focus on the arrival but focus on the now. We do need to fix what we screw up. That's the law of good manners and the law of being a good human. God did not screw things up, we did by either directly causing the suffering or by tolerating the injustices. Either way, we are guilty. Why should God send anyone to save us from our ourselves? Are we deserving of such at this time? Are we prepared? I don't think so. So, we better get busy saving the world so that it's ready for that visit. You never know, He may have already arrived.
Now I think we disagree on one major issue. Correct me if I am wrong. Man's moral capacity is too week to turn the evil in the world around. In fact he is the source of evil and not good. WHereas God is the source of God and without His intervention by transforming man through His Holy Spirit it will not change to the better. You think that man is good enough to cleanse his heart himself. Am I correct?
Here's an excerpt from that book I mentioned below: " In the Bible, when God revealed Himself to Abraham, Jacob and Moses, He began by simply calling them by name. Their response- at once the most primal and profound- was simply to say hineni, " Here I am". Life is God's question, we are His answer. It may be a good answer or a bad one., but it is the only answer there is. God does not need to know or be assured by us that He is God. He needs to know that we hear his call, that we are ready to rise to his challenge and that we are willing to take into our own hands the responsibility with which he has entrusted us, empowered and given strength by that very trust itself."
Do you know Don Quixote. He tries to pull himself out by grapping his hair. A morally bad heart cannot clean itself because the heart is the first cause of your moral actions. So how can a first cause change itself. It takes the power of an outside force to change the human heart.
There are many good outside forces around us every day. God works through us all who are willing to work for him.
God wants all people to repent and follow His Son
Oh dear Matthias you have lost your faith and become a cynic! BELIEVE !!!!!!! God wants you to believe and to show your spiritual integrity by being the change that you want to see in the world despite the adversity and opposition. Misery loves company as you know and evil takes the path of least resistance. It's very challenging trying to live in this world today- especially for me who is very sensitive and caring. As much as I want to throw my hands up in disgust and believe that we are too far gone into hell for any recovery, I just can't allow myself to go there in my thoughts. If I focus on the negativity and evil that is abounding, I will give up and I will become apathetic. I must admit though that before the OWS movement, I was giving up hope. It was one single woman on this forum who lifted my spirit and encouraged me to continue to believe in the power of the people. She lit a fire in me once again. Yes, ordinary men and women like you and I can make a HUGE difference. That one woman changed my entire outlook. The Holy spirit is at work every day through that woman, OWS activists and through anyone else who wants to nurture this world and restore it's Divine value. I don't think we totally disagree. I just don't think that a single God or a single force of God comes along to fix and repair everything all at once. His wisdom works through us. We are His employees :D
I agree with that the Holy Spirit works through people as well. But my faith is not in myself but in Jesus Christ because He is perfect and I am not. He is alive. He has all power and He his job is destroy the works of the devil and build the eternal Kingdom of peace and love which has started already. He does operate through people as well. But He is an independent moral being who can also work by Himself. He does not need us.
If you have no faith in yourself or your own ability to heal the world then you cannot have true faith in God. When you deny any of your own divinity, you are denying that God's love and virtues live within you and you are denying His purpose for you on this earth. God would not have created you or anyone else in vain. That would make him a narcissistic despotic God. Do you not think that God wants the world to be as beautiful as it was when he created it? you do not feel any responsibility for caring for God's world? you believe you can behave any way you want because you're a pathetic sinner who can do no good and that God is going to save you anyway? Why would God create a pathetic sinner? No one is perfect, so what? We were not meant to be perfect. We were meant to evolve into wiser spiritual beings. What is the point of there being a great glorious God who created you if you believe that you cannot model his values?
I see another problem in your view. Justice. If we sin how can a righteous God look away? If there is a murderer and the judge says. Just do better next time I don't think the people will be happy. Must crime be punished in your view?
God gave us everything we need to live a happy, healthy life. If we choose to forsake those gifts, then so be it. You take medications and end up with side effects, you spend more money than you have and you go broke, you spend more time jealous and angry and you end up alone and miserable. God need not spend his time keeping records on everyone and punishing them because his universe is a perfect system of actions and consequences. If we poison the environment, we poison ourselves and eventually mother nature WILL respond with catastrophic events that serve to remind us to restore balance and harmony in nature. God is not looking away, he's observing everyone's spiritual character. Some Christians believe that when God judges them they will either go to hell or heaven but I don't focus on the end or the afterlife because I know nothing about that until the time comes. I'm not afraid of dying and besides, dying and paying taxes are the only things that are guaranteed in this life. I prefer to focus on the current moment and live as fully spiritual and passionately as I can. Crime must be punished in our civilization in order to maintain some level of law and order. But, the true crimes are not of the physical body but of the spirit. When we commit crimes, we are defeating our purpose, defeating ourselves and perpetuating evil and that my dear Mathias is a sin. Even folks who don't believe in God suffer the spiritual consequences of their crimes in one way or another- unless they are truly socipaths and lack any conscience. I remember once reading that our conscience is our soul and I believe that my conscience is also the voice of God reminding me to get back on the right path. :D
Why did Jesus die? A kingdom is based on righteousness . no one hurting the other . everyone living in peace with each other. So a good and wise ruler must make sure that this is the case. A citizen must be righteous to be allowed to live there. The same is true with God. You must be righteous in order to live in His kingdom. So how do you become righteous. There is one possibility. You act rigtheous, you constantly obey the law of equal love and do not harm anyone anytime. This is called in the Bible the righteousness of works. So by your works you are righteous. This is the base of the law of Moses. But in case you break the law, your righteousness is gone. One consequnece is that you live in fear of breaking the law. God's kingdom is eternal but if your righteousness is based on the one on works you need to keep the law eternally and once you break it, you are out. We know that there is noone who can say already that he is free from sin. So God has always had another plan that He will provide a righteousness that will free us from the fear of death and transgressing the law. He provided an atonement for sin, so sins can be righteouly forgiven and this will be true in eternety. Jesus died for the sins of men. The innocent for the guilty. Now God offers us a new righteousness. By faith you can become righteous now. Abraham is the father of this righteousness. He believed God and God accounted it to his righteousness. Now you are free of the fear of death because your righteousness comes by grace and not by keeping the law of love contiously. This way you can stay with God eternally. Because in case you will sin there is the attonement of Jesus that will kick in and preserve your righteousness.
I am sorry that I can give you not another answer and that you reject it. You are not alone. As it is written that the message of the cross is folly to the Greeks, who seek wisdom, and an annoyance to the Jews, who want to be righteous by themselves. Your reply covers both aspects.
Jesus died for the sins of men- That's what all Christians say and honestly, not to be disrespectful, but what you say makes no sense. What was the purpose in God sacrificing his own son for the purpose of us having eternal life? That's so simple minded and not indicative of any Divine plan. So our loving God gets so angry at the world that He created and decides to single out and sacrifice his only son? Why should God forgive us by punishing someone else? Matthias, this makes no sense really and actually sounds like the way that child abusers operate when they make an example of one child by abusing it to instill fear in the other chlidren to make them conform. There must be a much deeper lesson to be learned from Jesus' horrible death. And if Jesus' death saved humanity, then what's the point of having life on earth-a world steeped in such violence, hatred, bigotry, greed, murder, infidelity, etc..? What's the point of God bringing us into the world to suffer all this just so we can go to heaven anyway as long as we declare Christ as our Saviour? That in and of itself is also the same type of behavior used by psychopaths and cult leaders and abusers who keep abusing while promising to provide ' gifts', food or other good things.
I also do not live in fear of God or his rules. Living in fear of anything results in pretentious behavior- much like the Hebrews did in the presence of Moses. Their good behavior was not sincere, only motivated by fear. That's why so many people pray like crazy when their lives are in chaos. I don't need to be motivated, bribed or enticed in any way to behave righteously.
So, in case I sin the atonement of Jesus will kick in and preserve my righteousness? That's once again so utterly simple minded that it's difficult to believe that such a great God would devise such a plan for anyone. This is exactly why so many Christians behave like heathens and still expect forgiveness and eternal life with their Lord. Was it really necessary for God to sacrifice his own son in such a heinous method to teach us that we can have eternal life with Him despite our sins?
I just can't accept those rote Christian declarations without having more clarity. The way I see it, living an obedient life here on this sinful earth is a sacrifice that we make for each other and for God in order to preserve goodness in this world. Jesus lived an obedient life in harmony with God's laws and it was because of his righteous spiritual integrity in the face of greed and other evil-doers that he was crucified. In other words, we must all do the right thing even if it results in us dying do so. If we live in harmony with God's laws as Jesus did, if we live our lives defending what is right and nurture all that is good, then we can die knowing that we fulfilled God's purpose for us.
And, one more thing I take issue with. What if someone doesn't want to live in God's kingdom? Like the Muslims or the Buddhists? I mean, they have their own version of ' Kingdom" anyway. So, why do Christians feel the need to tell others that they need the same afterlife?
Ok what is your take of the next opinion of Charles Finney. Crime and punishment must be equal. You cannot sentence someone with the death penalty for speeding. Now if Jesus is sent to the earth and dies for the sins of the people to give them a chance to have eternal life and then you sin against this eternal good the just punishment must be eternal punishment?
Yeah, that's a toughie because every civilization operates under a different judicial code. Heck even in the USA, the states operate with different measures and even courtrooms have their own hidden agendas more often than not. I'm not a big proponent of our judicial system because it wreaks of corruption. So who decides what is the crime, what weight it carries and what type of punishment ? I guess it's probably best to know what is considered a crime in your jurisdiction/country, location. Speeding in Saudi Arabia can lead to someone being beheaded if they kill someone while they are speeding. Probably best not to speed there. hahahah
I don't really get the whole concept of Jesus dying for us to have eternal life. I mean, that would make him a martyr of sorts the way I see it. Maybe you can explain that to me? What I get from that is that Jesus died doing the right thing, believing in the right thing and that if we live our lives in the same way, we will have a soft heart and a conscience that is eternally free of guilt and not burdened with bitterness, regret or hate when we die. The eternal punishment in my opinion is lying there in one's final moments having any regrets. To die in that way would be hell wouldn't it?
I believe in God
I don't believe in Religion.
Religion is just another way to control with fear. And I damn sure don't want some laws being made by those control freaks (even though their motives might be honest)
After all of that, I would suggest that we pray/wish/hope/visualize for the success of this movement
But please consider the change not the church but Christians devoted to Christ brought about. Martin Luther toppled an international most powerful system set up by the church of Rome. No it is God who is the true advocate of the poor AND and the one who is not a respecter of persons and who cannot be bought with money.
I know religions of all form have done good deeds, but they also have done plenty of evil in God’s name
Religion is man's interpretation of what God wants us to do. And there are always those hoops you have to jump through (even waging war) or burn in hell
I connect with a power that we all have access to. It's called all kinds of names. I don't define it. I just use it when I need help or guidance.
You will know them by their fruit. The Bibles says clearly. He who says he knows God and sins is a liar. The root of our problems the that people leave God. Then they make idols (the bad forms of religion you have mentioned) or they make themselves to the supreme authority. The way to cure the world is returning to God via the true peophet Jesus Christ.
"The Bibles says clearly. He who says he knows God and sins is a liar" ---- That's the problem, the entities that define sin are men. And they use sin as a control mechanism. I know from what you are saying that you know the same thing called God as I do. I just don’t believe in the Religious packaging. I feel that when minds get aligned and are focused on the same goals things start coming together. That’s why people should ask the universe/God for help. Not for gifts, but for help and guidance (just ask, no rituals or crying etc.). Then pay attention things start happening.
I agree that if men decide what sin is we have a problem because it seems like that they legelize their pet sin and are harsh on the sins of others. Therefore I come to a different conclusion. We need God to define sin, so we are not hypocrites. Do we not all agee that the bases for not sinning is love your neighbor as yourself. Stealing is wrong, lying ... And now we are arrvving at the ten commandments. So I think that only the set of commandments revealed by God are not bias.
I agree, for most of us there is already an internal sense of right or wrong. We feel the benefits of love verses hate, help verses hinderance, greed verses sharing and on and on.
May God bless you. Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness for they shall be filled.
Babyon is fallen
"The Battle for the Bible in American History" ...
"To understand how power is wielded in America by wealthy politicians and their coteries of extremists in 2020, you have to consider the role of religion in our national life. An epic battle for the Bible is now underway in a country that has been largely ceded to white evangelical Christian nationalists. Through a well-funded network of churches and nonprofits, universities, and think tanks, and with direct lines to the nation’s highest political officials, they’ve had carte-blanche to set the terms of what passes for religious debate in this country and dictate what morality even means in our society.
"Under Trump, such religious nationalism has reached a fever pitch as a reactionary movement that includes technocratic billionaires, televangelists, and armed militias has taken root with a simple enough message: God loves white Christian America, favors small government and big business, and rewards individualism and entrepreneurship. Meanwhile, the poor, people of color, and immigrants are blamed for society’s problems even as the rich get richer in what’s still the wealthiest country in the history of the world.
"The dangers posed by today’s Christian nationalists are all too real, but the battle for the Bible itself is not new in America. In the 1700s and 1800s, slaveholders quoted the book of Philemon and lines from St. Paul’s epistles to claim that slavery was ordained by God. They also ripped the pages of Exodus from bibles they gave to the enslaved. During the Gilded Age of the nineteenth century, churches and politicians alike preached a "prosperity gospel" that extolled the virtues of industrial capitalism.
"Decades later, segregationists continued to use stray biblical verses to rubberstamp Jim Crow practices, while in the late 1970s the Moral Majority helped to mainstream a new generation of Christian extremists into national politics. In my own youth, I remember politicians quoting Thessalonians in the lead up to the passage of the 1996 Welfare Reform Act as proof that God believes in work-requirements for public assistance programs.
"Students of religion and history know that, although such theological battles have often tipped disastrously toward the forces of violence, deprivation, and hate, Christian religious thinking has also been a key ingredient in positive social change in this country. Escaped slave Harriet “Moses” Tubman understood the Underground Railroad as a Christian project of liberation, while escaped slave Frederick Douglass fought for abolition through churches across the north in the pre-Civil War years. A century later, near the end of his life, Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. explained how, to achieve his universal dream of justice, a beloved community of God would be built through a “freedom church of the poor.”
"After all, in every chapter of American history, abolitionists, workers, labor organizers, civil rights leaders, and other representatives of the oppressed have struggled for a better nation not just in streets and workplaces, but in the pulpit, too. In the wreckage of the present Trumpian moment, with a fascistic, white nationalism increasingly ascendant, people of conscience would do well to follow suit." from ...
deus vult?!
money is a means of exchanging goods and service
perhaps the soil of abstract representation
but not the root of disproportional representation
Why is there always some christian running around making everything about Jesus and GOD....give it a rest There's no GOD in our government or on Wall street
Now if there is no God in govenment and WallST has it ever dawned to you that this exactly is the problem. Only Jesus stands up for the rights of the poor and needy.
It's freaks like you that keep me out of the religion as well as the absurd principles you have listed.
What is absurd to not take interest. What is absurd to cancel all debts every 7 years? It protects the poor. That's it. What is wrong with that?
There is no reason to receive a loan if you can't pay it off. There is no guarantee that you will get money back so you charge interest. What is absurd about protecting your holdings and investments? What is wrong with protecting your properties and investments?
The reason to receive a loan although you cannot take it off is poverty and mercy. The religion of Christianity is about mercy and fovrgiveness. The Lord's prayer goes like. Forgive us our debt as we forgive our debtors.
Jesus said,"Do not include religion in the matters of governance which needs efficient and systems only."
ALl I know is that Jesus said that Hi sKinfdom is not of this world. It has the same meaning when He said that His followers are not of this world. They are not of the spirit of this world which is corrupt as OWS knows. It does not mean that it is not a Kingdom in this world. A Christian is a human being in this world but not of this world.
He wouldn't say anything about OWS. He would only discuss ideas and their merits as applied to the necessities of human life.
Why do you think so? Do you have any specific knowledge about God to back that up`?
Uh, yeah. God gave man free will and dominion over himself. He wouldn't say something dumb like OWS is this or that. It's not any one thing. To say that OWS is anything other than a forum for discussion is simply not true. Therefore, he would not bother to engage in conversation about OWS, but about the ideas that are being discussed.
God is enganging in any step you take or word you say.
Nice how you combine the New and Old Testaments together or at least the parts that serve your agenda. The New Covenant that Jesus brought forth brings a different message than the Old Testament. If you are a follower of such things, then you should know this. Further, you bring forth teachings that not all peoples follow within the United States. That is why we discuss and vote on our approach to these issues. Sorry, it is not going to be all about God.
The Old Testament is about Jesus Christ as well. I agree that I bring forth teachings that not all people in the United States follow. But what does this have to do with wisdom and truth. Wisdom and truth is not related to whether or not the people of the United States follow it.
There is a lot of wisdom in the Bible. What you speak of in the old testament has to do with Jewish Law. What Christ brought to the table was a new covenant that showed a way to God through him, not law. As far as truth, respectfully, your truth is not necessarily the truth of others. Religion does not do well with absolutes when dealing with people of different faiths and beliefs.
I agree it does not do well when dealing with people of different faiths and beliefs but it does better than the status quo where the rich rule over the poor.
Original topic is what would Jesus think of the OWS. I suspect that it would be of little concern to him. His message is of the soul and it's path to heaven. The material world is of less concern. My point is, who are you really persuading with discussion of the Bible? Surely, there is an approach that can be more grounded in what all can relate too. More pointed, you turn people off with religious talk. Just sayin.
Thanks for your concern. The Gospel has been pushed aside into the personal sphere although it is about the Kingdom of God. I believe and hope we are on a turning point when the rule of the godless will be broken and important aspects of life like the economy and politics will come to the truth as well.
Peace to you as well.
May the Lord bless you too
Jesus would have never pushed his politics on someone else. Nor would he EVER have made his politics public. His "love of money" comment was in regards to individuals and how it was unhealthy to idolize and worship money above God. It was not a go-ahead for political protests. Jesus would have said nothing, one way or the other, about OWS.
Why do you think so. Has He said something like that. He said that He is a king. Does not a King primarily deal with politics?
I agree with the sentiment here, but selecting Jesus rather than Abraham, The Buddha, Mohommad, or Krishna, for example, is inherently divissive. We must respect the virtues of the great religions, while not limiting the message to any specific religion.
One World, One People.
Jesus Christ is the truth, the life and the resurection. No one comes to God but through him.
That's where your train leaves the track.
So what about the fact that there were 500 people seeing Him alive after He was crucified by the Romans?
I don't know, you'll have to debate that with a theologian. That should keep you busy until you know the truth for yourself.
I will turn to God and He will make an end to the rule of riches.
Simple, dude - Jesus didn't die on the cross! That's why Pilate was recorded as being amazed when he was told Jesus had died. Pilate knew crucifixion took at least 2 or 3 days to kill, not the few hours Jesus had been up there. So he asked the centurion who supervised the crucifixion to confirm that Jesus had died, but the centurion was a secret follower of Jesus, so he lied so that Joseph could get Jesus to a place of safety where he could rest & recover from his ordeal. (Mark 15)
OK. now my version which is more in line with what OccupyWallSt fights against. Jesus was betrayed for money. The soldiers who were supposed to guard the tomb lied for money. Why? There is a big devide between money and God. You cannot serve both. Jesus was so much against riches being heaped up and not shared witht he poor. I am convinced that JESUS is the best friend of the cause of OWS
Hed be disapointed that he died for this.
The elite made Him go to the cross. ut the time is coming when He will take over the governments.
Jesus would have supported the 1%:
Matthew 5:17-20 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven."
I don't understand the meaning of the verses you quoted and the 1% Please explain.
@ Matthias : Its baffling to me that you don't understand scripture.
Matthew 5:17-20: This quote is saying support the authorities. " For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven."
Ok I think I understand what you mean. The 1% are like the Pharisees and therefore our righteousness must surpass it. But I am not sure whether the righteousness of OWS surpasses the one of the 1%. I have talked to people on this forum who were not very nice towards God.
@Matthias: Its not God we are opposing.
So belief or non-belief is immaterial.
I am not so sure about that when you look at all people of OWS. Just read through this post and you will find commentors who seem to oppose God.
@Matthias: OWS is not about God or no God. You are reading to much unto posts by people who may not belong to OWS.
This is not true. You seem to not want God in here. God is all in all and therefore in OWS as well.
@Matthias: I don't want to hurt your feelings, but not everyone thinks like that.
Not everyone, I agree, but not all either. If you read this post you will see that there are people who are on the side of Jesus Christ
@Matthias What ever.
Were you Baptist?
Yes
I do believe so, because it is so consistent and embedded in consistent and logical texts of the Bible. I hope you will someday see it as well.
@Matthias There is no constancy in the bible and it is far from logical.
There is no evidence to support any of the claims made in the Bible concerning the existence of a god. Any ‘evidence’ proposed by theists to support the Bible’s various historical and supernatural claims is non-existent at best, manufactured at worst.
The Bible is not self-authenticating; it is simply one of many religious texts. Like those others, it itself constitutes no evidence for the existence of a god. Its florid prose and fanciful content do not legitimise it nor distinguish it from other ancient works of literature.
Now let us come to the core. Do you believe this one fact that Jesus Christ has lived, was killed and rose from the dead?
@Matthias: No
Did you get baptized?
no I didn't.
There is no contemporary evidence for Jesus’ existence or the Bible’s account of his life; no artefacts, dwellings, works of carpentry, self-written manuscripts, court records, eyewitness testimony, official diaries, birth records, reflections on his significance or written disputes about his teachings.
Nothing survives from the time in which he is said to have lived.
All historical references to Jesus derive from hearsay accounts written decades or centuries after his supposed death.
These historical references generally refer to early Christians rather than a historical Jesus and, in some cases, directly contradict the Gospels or were deliberately manufactured.
How do you want to verify a hand written account? How do you know it was Jesus? YOu have something much better. You have prophecies that were written down by the Jews hundreds of years before Jesus. They are authentic. And all of them came to pass. The place where Jesus was born the time and the circumstances. His death and so on.
@Matthias: Failed Prophecies:
saiah 17:1 "An oracle concerning Damascus: See, Damascus will no longer be a city but will become a heap of ruins."
FAIL: Damascus is still inhabited today with well over a million people and there was never a time where it ceased to be a city. It is widely known as being the oldest continuously inhabited city in the world.
Isaiah 19:4-5 "I will hand the Egyptians over to the power of a cruel master, and a fierce king will rule over them, declares the Lord, the LORD Almighty. The waters of the river will dry up, and the riverbed will be parched and dry."
FAIL: The river mentioned here is the Nile which never dried up and is still one of Egypt's greatest natural resource.
Isaiah 52:1 "Awake, awake, O Zion, clothe yourself with strength. Put on your garments of splendor, O Jerusalem, the holy city. The uncircumcised and defiled will not enter you again."
FAIL: There are still uncircumcised people living in Jerusalem even today.
Ezekiel 30:10-11 "This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I will put an end to the hordes of Egypt by the hand of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon. He and his army - the most ruthless of nations - will be brought in to destroy the land. They will draw their swords against Egypt and fill the land with the slain."
FAIL: Ezekiel predicts that Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon will conquer Egypt utterly destroying it, slaying and scattering its people. Nebuchadnezzar killed many Egyptians and even the Egyptian king Necho II during a battle in Carchemish, but he never conquered Egypt. Nebuchadnezzar attempted conquering Egypt in 601 BCE and failed. In 568 BCE he tried again but Egypt still survived and the pharaoh Amasis II continued his reign from 570 until 526 BCE.
Egypt was conquered by the Nubian King Piy in 728 BCE, the Persians in 525 BCE, and Alexander the Great in 332 BCE. Never by the Babylonian king Nebuchadnezzar.
Ezekiel 29:10-11 "therefore I am against you and against your streams, and I will make the land of Egypt a ruin and a desolate waste from Migdol to Aswan, as far as the border of Cush. The foot of neither man nor beast will pass through it; no one will live there for forty years."
FAIL: Never in its long history has Egypt been uninhabited for forty years.
Matthew 16:28 "I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom." 23:36 "I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation." 24:34 "I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened."
FAIL: Jesus states in Matthew that all the signs marking the end of the world would be fulfilled before his generation ended, before the people that were standing infront of him "taste death." Those people have been dead for over 2000 years and the world did not come to an end, neither have all those signs been fulfilled.
Immoral God/Bible:
GOD IS NOT LOVE According to the Bible, God does not fit the definition of love given in 1 Corinthians 13, as God clearly "keeps a record of wrongs" or else there would have been no flood, amongst other things. Virtually the entire Bible describes God as a manipulative and controlling god, one who is fueled by jealousy, anger and violence. A God that is very unforgiving and seeks revenge through bloody massacres and supports slavery, rape, sexism, child abuse, murder, and discrimination. Just because one line says "God is love" does not make him so.
Negative Impact Christianity Causes:
LYING TO THE MASSES.
ATTACK ON EQUALITY.
MURDER BY FAITH HEALING.
ANTI MEDICAL RESEARCH.
ANTI FREEDOM OF CHOICE.
FATALLY BLURRING REALITY.
HINDERING EDUCATION.
HIV EPIDEMIC AFRICA.
GLORIFIED END TIMES.
CENSORSHIP.
BLUE LAWS.
CHRISTIAN TALIBAN.
TAX EXEMPTION.
Now I tell you the problem you face. You quote sources that tell a different story than the Bible. So tell me the sources and we will apply your scrutiny to them and they will probably utterly fail.
@Matthias: The Bible, King James Version.
I have a personal question. Have you been trained in Christian teachings when you were a child. I can imagine that you have been taught a lot.
@ Matthias: Yes.
What happened?
@Matthias: I realized that it was all mythology and superstition, just part of the religious competition going on in the Middle East.
As we can see by this reply, it doesn't require religion to be divisive. It only requires small minds.
@richardkentgates: And you seem to have one.
Indeed. Calling you out for your unwelcome divisiveness, the same you accuse the church of, makes me small minded. So so tiny.
@richardkentgates : Speaking the truth for truths sake is not small minded.
Not accepting the truth is.
If Jesus were around today I think a lot of people would call him a hippie and tell him to go take a bath.
Large institutions have somehow managed to convince people that Christianity and Capitalism are the same thing, buy if you're going to believe the teachings of Jesus you should at least read them for yourselves.
@ alexrai: Christianity and Capitalism are the same thing. Jesus said to support the authority of mans institutions.
Its been a while since I actually read the bible, but I think you're talking about a verse in Romans.
A good chunk of the NT is written by Paul after his vision on the road to Damascus; Paul never even met Jesus in the flesh. For whatever reason, Christians seem to completely ignore the gospel and gobble up whatever Paul says.
I think Jesus had a good message, but it's been screwed up quite badly by people from Paul onward. Especially with all the gnostic gospels getting punted out of the bible by the Romans... :p
I agree with what you say. Thanks for the post.
I think, he would say prepare yourselves for the cross...Look what happened to me...I went against this system and like many before and after I was murdered for it...
You are right, as we speak maybe millions of Christians are persecuted. We are not but how many stand up for the truth, that He is King over all govenments.
He'd probably blend in the crowd just fine, and I'm sure he would be pepper sprayed by police, like other protesters.
Do you think the people would accept Him as their leader?
Who knows ... you're asking me to postulate a counterfactual?
Jesus is factual
@Matthias: That's a Fallacy.
What is the most sold and read book in the world? What religion has the most adherents? What teaching has changed the world the most? All this a fallacy?
@Matthias: In the Middle ages most if not all people believed the Earth was flat.
The Church taught that the Sun revolved around the Earth and that the Earth was the Center of the universe.
Need I keep going on this track, the church,Religion, has been wrong on every count.
The popes in the Middle Ages do not represent the Bible.
@Matthias: You wrote "The popes in the Middle Ages do not represent the Bible".
How is this opinion justified?
What are your sources.
Please provide links.
Martin Luther's 95 thesis http://www.luther.de/en/95thesen.html
[Removed]
the middle ages happened in Europe
I don't know what was going on in Peru at the time
Voltaire - God thinks (Lyrics)
@MattHolck: That's where Christianity was.
Are you trying to avoid the obvious, that your completely wrong.
It is interesting that Christ teachings are extremely economic in many cases and that economically his teachings are parallel with OWS. It is not a matter of joining an organized reliegion. It is a matter of having the open mindedness to link together all supportive strings that can be attached to an ideology in order to strengthen it. Christ teachings are among those strings. Do not perceive Christ as being synonymys with Christianity or you are choosing to be willfully ignorant. Look beyond what you see...
It does matter to join Jesus Christ because He has the power and authority. On one hand you need true and righteous solutions. But you also need power to enforce them. God has given Jesus all power over all authorities in heaven and on earth. So it is important to have Him on your side.
@DJSethMichaels: You are willfully Ignorant for believing in Myths.
I don't perceive Christ as being synonymous with Christianity, I don't perceive him at all. I have seen no evidence to suggest that he ever existed.
Man is not the problem,But the answer,its not men that do bad deeds, but THE spirit within. WWJD, dont hate the player hate the game. can you honestly walk up to the biggest banking crook and put you arms around him and forgive? if you can , youll release him from his own demon.
The spirit of man and man are the same thing. Are they not?
yes and no. you are what your spirit is comprised of.Ther are holy spirits,and demonic spirits....and for all that says leave god out... needs to let god in.
I think you have your own spirit. Now you can obey the devil of Jesus. DO you agree?
IF you feel like you have your own then your not demonic. just someone that likes to debate...these questions only can be answered by the look in your eyes.
On what knowledge do you base that on. Have you rad it seomwhere?
Its called living with the holly spirit. Like a dog, learn to smell the bad bro. but with that you pray for the deliverance. real simple, god will give you power but you must not hate and one spoken word or gesture could be all that that person needs to change thier life. maybe that wall street banker is at the point of his own deliverance from his own sinful spirit. and you are the lonely preverbal straw , he sees you reach out to a stranger in need and then he GETs IT....gods work bro and he will put you in that spot and you may not even know.
May the Lord bless you
Jesus would have been out there by himself... because once he started really laying into these hypocrites, most of us would not be able to stand the backlash. Some of us would have tried to shut him up... Silly question if you know anything about Jesus.
Why silly. Isn't He the true authority over mankind, society and the governments and all individuals?
Read the Bible. It is not time for Jesus to take up the throne. It's not time for Him to be our King yet. But the time is coming. In the meantime it is everyone's duty to themselves to search for God in their-selves. It is each individual's responsibility to seek out God and to try to be the best that they can be in trying to be a true believer.
When it has been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that Man can not govern Man in peace health prosperity for "all". Then it will be time for God's Kingdom to return.
What do you make of Psalm 2 or my video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gpLYq525SpM Isn't He the King of Kings already. Hasn't God given Him all authority already.
He has been given all authority. It just is not time yet to exercise it. Look into Revelations - signs of the end times.
If it is written all authority comes from God. So all authority comes from Jesus because God has given Him all authority. Isn't that true?
1 points by Matthias (881) 1 minute ago
"He has been given all authority. It just is not time yet to exercise it. Look into Revelations - signs of the end times."
You have a problem with that statement?
All of the prophecies will be met before the return!
I don't have a problem with it, because I most probably have a different look at Revelations. Let's be honest. All of us follow other Christian's interpretatin of Revelation. I happen to favor the one of Jonathan Edwards, the revial preacher of the 18th century. He and others believe that the church will rule on earth in the 7th millenium which is starting as we speak. I am not 100% whether he is right. But I like it. What take of Revelation do you follow?
The Bibles not mans. Follow a false prophet at your own peril. That is why every man ( that's Male & Female, child as well as adult ) is charged with seeking the truth for their-self.
So you have come with your interpretation of Revelation all by yourself?
I have come to my present understanding through my studies through-out my life and I will not stop searching out truth, it is a life long search.
So what do you think about the millenium, the tribulation and the rapture. if I may ask?
The rapture has not happened obviously, but will in it's time.
Thanks for the link. I am curious: Are saved by faith or by works?
Faith!
Works will not save you as you ( "WE" ) are not perfect neither are your ( "OUR" ) works. That is why Jesus was sent.
But that does not let us off the hook to try and live a good life as our Father and Savior would want.
And the millenium, when will this come?
Millennium? When? Do not know other then to tell you soon.
Here is some of "my" philosophy if your interested:
http://occupywallst.org/forum/do-i-have-a-heavenly-hope/
Remember place your trust in another man ( human/imperfect ) to lead you at your own peril as there will be many claiming to be the savior.
Jesus would tell all you occupiers to go feed the poor and clothe the naked and quit waiting for a tyrannical government to do it for you.
So what do you think about what I wrote. No interest on debt. Debt release every 7 years and redistribution of basic wealth(land) every 50 years?
That is similar to what the Jews were supposed to do as written in the old testament. It would be great, but this world is too greedy. I don't think people would go for it.
Thanks for your comment. It is like fresh water if someone like you see the good in those rules. And you agree with your assessment. However I want to point out that the beauty of the Gospel is that God intervenes in our world and hearts by His Spirit. He is righteous and makes righteous. He gives a new heart and a new Spirit. This is why I am hopeful that eventually people will change. It is written that the land will be covered with the knowledge of God like the water covers the sea.
Jesus would be tipping over the tables of the money changers just like OWS.
After Jesus drove out the moneychangers He said that the temple is supposed to be a house of prayer for all peoples. This inculdes you. Do you know that if I may ask?
Yes. We have talked before. I have studied the bible, the history of christianity, used Strong's Exhaustive Concordance, the Greek Septuagint, and Gnosticism.
The books in the bible were edited by the Catholic Church around the year 300 A.D. They decided what books should be included so as to support their power structure. Only after it was printed in common languages did people begin to see the truth as it pertained to them and it brought on all the reformation movements.
Personally, I believe that the Gnostics had the closest teaching to what Jesus said. God is in all of us and can not be told to you by others. I prefer that viewpoint.
I believe you that you prefer that. And I know that thought. But is this not the problem. We are tempted to believe what we prefer and not what the truth is.
The truth is that God is incorporeal and the bible is a book.
True, God is Spirit
Didn't Jesus say, when he was being asked if he were the son of God, that all men are sons of God. That sounds like a Gnostic tenet to me.
Not to my knowledge. He refered to Psalm 82 and it was directed to the authorities.
and I have an invisible friend who is a six foot rabbit named harvey.
What does your MIND and HEART with the Fall out of Man Written Words in a Book, and the Backward Beliefs of 2000 or more years ago of those who wanted Kings and prophecy to be their LOVE and Power over others..?
... well?
Are you a CHILD, ... or a Fully Matured Adult?
A child of God, to be precise.
Obama is wrong. Fraud was illegal before the crisis; it's illegal now. During the savings and loan crisis, the George H.W. Bush administration sent about 3,000 white-collar criminals to jail.This administration has yet to send one. And it is for lack of trying! President Barack Obama has argued, as recently as last Sunday on “60 Minutes,” that what happened on Wall Street wasn’t criminal. “Some of the most damaging behavior on Wall Street,” the president told Steve Kroft, “in some cases, some of the least ethical behavior on Wall Street, wasn’t illegal. That’s exactly why we had to change the laws.” Obama is wrong. Fraud was illegal before the crisis; it’s illegal now. The Servicemember Civil Relief Act was signed in 2003. So it was already on the books. During the savings and loan crisis, the George H.W. Bush administration sent about 3,000 white-collar criminals to jail. This administration has yet to send one. And it is for lack of trying. Attorney General Eric Holder and his network of U.S. attorneys haven’t brought one criminal suit on illegal military foreclosures or foreclosure fraud. There have been enough books and investigations revealing rampant criminality in the housing bubble and now in foreclosure crisis. Yet Holder’s DOJ is still settling with banks to let them off the hook for illegal foreclosures on active duty troops. http://dyn.politico.com/printstory.cfm?uuid=656C8EEB-CE79-4C81-BC5D-73F207202B43
So who determines the basics of what is illegal. Is it not God?
What is your point?, that Obama is God?
My point is that you were talking about legal and illegal. And I was pointing out that all law comes from God. I wanted to point out that we have a bigger issue than President Bush vs Obama. We have men vs God. Do both of them stand up for the law of God?
You are taking Old Testament law and mixing it with the new covenant that came from Jesus Christ. Jesus also said to render to Cesar what is Cesar's for it is not of the kingdom of heaven. Keep things in context. Jesus was here to save souls not make everyone wealthy. I know this is simplified and brief and I am sure people can punch holes in it if they wish. I just ask that you thank about the basis of what I tried to communicate and go from there.
Thanks for your answer. I agree that Jesus came in the first place to free man from being slaves from sin. But He also came to free from outside oppression in the long run. In Psalm 2 you can read that the governments are commanded to serve Jesus Christ as well. Therefore when Jesus says that His kingdom is not of this world it means not of THE SPIRIT of this world. His kingdom will be the dominant kingdom in this world as it is prophesied in Isaiah. Can we agree on that?
His kingdom will be dominant, but it is still not of this world. I think people (not necessarily you) forget that things that happen in our world do not really mean much to things in the kingdom of heaven. Even death, which is pretty serious here in our physical world, means little in heaven. Honestly, I responded to your first statement because I think that trying to tie Jesus to our events on this world does not always mesh quite like we think it does. Good topic though and I think others can get extreme with this at times.
So where will the Kingdom be in Revelation chapter 20 when Satan will be bound?
Where? As in a location? I do not think that heaven is a location, nor is the binding of Satan a physical binding. Through progressive revelation, these things will be revealed to us. Currently, my understanding is that things that happen in Revelations are metaphoric descriptions of non-physical things. Described in a way that man can shall we say, "wrap his head around it".
Now should the governments rule in the Spirit of Christ.?
Absolutely not. They could not if they wanted to anyway. Trying to bring this back around in my head. Where you going with this?
If they do not rule in the spirit of Christ they rule in the spirit of corruption. Show me ONLY one government that is not ruling in the Spirit of Christ and is NOT corrupted!
Better yet, show me a government that is not corrupt.
Look this is no news for the Bible. And God is very well aware of this and will react. In Revelation 2 chapters are devoted on the downfall of this mystery power that corrupts the governments.
corruption is a the root of the problem in governments all over the world, from China, Russia, Europe and USA
That is my point. Any government that wraps itself in the cloth of a religion has no guarantee that it will remain pure from corruption. Just the introduction of "man" into the process will assuredly introduce corruption. Not saying that we should give up trying.
And the Mad Hatter said, "What, another special interest group corrupting the governance of the US, looking to continue a tax loophole.? I am going back down my hole."
So what do you think God could do to help the 99%
This is one time the GOP is right (correct). You are on your own.
Why am I on my own if there is God willing to help His children?
Let me know when you get rid of corporate, and nonprofit campaign donations.
Do you know what happened in East Germany.It was communist and there people who prayed in a church on Mondays. After a couple of years this church was the epicenter of the downfall of communism. Huge mass demonstartions started out at that church on Mondays. Faith moves mountains.
And mountains move faith.
I am sorry I cannot quite follow. What do you mean by that?
S/he means that your fervent anti-communist / anti-socialist rhetoric, coupled with your antiquated, superstitious, belief-system puts the cart before the horse in that it leverages a flawed form of 'inductive reasoning' to argue that because A happened to chronologically correspond with B, A is therefore - ipso-facto - the single primary causal factor for B's occurrence.
Ok then tell me why the communist system was gone after a couple of weeks in East Germany and WallSt is still functioning as always. Now you tell me.
Very Well...
Wall St., the U.S. economy, the global financial markets, and the global capitalist system have not been functioning properly for some time. The only thing that has buoyed the U.S. economy in that face of massive graft, corruption and malfeasance has been the enormous bailouts over the past few years using purely fiat currency.
As for the so-called "collapse of Communism", much of the U.S.S.R.'s demise owed to the antiquated, authoritarian, and thoroughly hierarchical, means of political control instituted by Stalin and by his administration's arguably misguided application of Socialist ideas. Just like the U.S., once the U.S.S.R. abandoned it's core Democratic principles, their entire socio-political system began to unravel.
We are now experiencing the same thing in the West as neo-feudal, quasi-fascist state corporatism dominates the economic dialogue, the 99% struggle to have their voices heard, and political parties fragment and scramble to reorganize in response to the rapidly changing public discourse.
http://occupywallst.org/forum/communism-is-the-way-to-go/#comment-513577
http://occupywallst.org/forum/nutshell-is-back-new-and-improved/
http://metapolitik.org/nutshell
http://metapolitik.org/article/approaching-metapolitical-discourse
But why do the governments go the same route whether communists, capitalist or monarchs?
Beaus they are usually based on the same type of antiquated, hierarchical, top-down, paternalist model of authoritarian rule.
People are not always terribly imaginative. It is difficult to break from old habits when you don't have another 'model' to use as an example of the right way.
Thus, revolutions happen and then the revolutionaries inadvertently recreate the very problems that they sought to solve in the first place by creating the same kind of power structures that existed before them.
Until we develop a more to a cooperative model instead of an authoritarian one. We will repeat this process until our species is extinct.
The punishment of the fool is his folly. So freedom means wisdom The sinner is enslaved by his sin. So freedom means freedom of sin
'The Fool' is the Jester who's job it is to tell the King the truth - that which the King does not want to hear.
'The Fool' is the child who screams: "the Emperor has no clothes"
'The Fool' cuts through illusions with the clarity of his insight.
'The Fool' is the wisdom of innocence and the bravery and fortitude required to call out the thieves and the money changers from the temple.
'The Fool' is embodied in the spirits of Gandhi and Martin Luther King Jr. and J.F.K. and all the others out there who were 'foolish' enough to try and make the world a better place.
And while Obi Wan might ask: "Who's the bigger fool - the fool or the fool who follows him?"...Others have noted that: "Everybody plays the fool sometimes".
The truth of the matter is that were it not for 'Fools' like Tesla, Fuller, Einstein, Jesus... And the lady that figured out how to bake bread... Without FOOLS, our society would never have left the caves or figured out how to harness fire.
Why do you think Prometheus was chained to a rock?
Why do you think they nailed Christ to that tree?
Why do you think there's a Burning Man?
'The Fool' may be a fool, but he is the wisest of us all.
Long live The Fool!
Democracies and seperation of power was such a novel idea and what happened? The same structures. And if you say anarchy is the answer. According to my knwoledge there was some sort of anarchy after the downfall of the Roman Empire. It was chaos and the rule of the sword. Why because ALL men are sinfull inducding you and me. That is why God send Jesus to perfect advocate of the poor.
People who cal for "Anarchy" are generally primarily concerned with Individual "Freedom" (aka: Liberty).
And while Liberty is perhaps the greatest value held by our society, most people don't really seem to have a clue what it means in practice.
They tend to confuse "Liberty" with "Freedom",
But Freedom to do what exactly?
To own a bunch stuff?
As though "material prosperity" were the only method for measuring the degree of "Liberty" that a society has achieved.
For really poor people, "economic freedom" is utterly meaningless. For them, it's just freedom to starve.
For all you right-wingers, tea-partiers and libertarians out there who whine about constantly about taxes and "punishing job-creators" (yeah right), be thankful that the government is keeping the poor well enough fed that they don't decide to storm your gated communities.
To all of you protesters that consider yourselves "Anarchists", please remember: Big Business LOVES anarchy because it means that there are no safeguards in-place to keep corporations and banks from riding roughshod over everyone else.
Governments proper role is to protect the people and to regulate economic interests. Not protect economic interests and regulate the people - which is what's now happening.
As for:
"Democracies and separation of power [being] such a novel idea"
...That's complete bunk.
The Greeks codified the principles of Democracy thousands of years ago and small communities have likely been practicing Direct-Democracy in one form or another since shortly after our species learned to walk upright.
Other fictions that we are taught include:
As for God and Jesus...
I don't need antiquated, patriarchal superstitions to determine the difference between right and wrong, thank you. But if Jesus wants to show up and help kick the money changers out of the temple (so-to-speak), I'm all for it.
Hell, I'll even pray for it.
But don't hold your breath.
And the Mad Hatter?
I am sorry but I don't know what you mean by that. Please explain it.
Before we make foolish assumptions we must make sure we understand the concept of "religion". Then we must understand our concept of god. Only after knowing and understanding these two can we then formulate our thoughts. We must also make sure to know who Jesus was before we blurt out what we "think" who he was and what he thought. This is not a simple question to answer, and cannot be answered simply. We must think this through thoroughly first. How can we know what Jesus thought? Were we there to witness his existence? We only have texts written by people other than jesus, how can we be sure they are right?
Jesus said if someone wants to do the will of God He will know the truth that Jesus is not speaking from himself but that He speaks what he hears God say.
If someone does not want to do the will of God He will reject the notion that Jesus says the truth in Bible.
Again that is your conception of what god said and where the word of god came from. Let us not forget that the bible was "written" by humans. And these humans claim many things were said and happened. How can we be sure anything of what they say is true? With your reasoning it sounds like you're saying: no one can be good unless they follow the teachings of the bible. Please try to answer with your own reasoning and not with passages from the text we are analyzing.
Ok, with my own words. When I was a teanager I lived without caring about God. My brother was telling me to study the Bible and turn to God. After a couple of years I decided to read the Bible from beginning to end. In the beginning it was very intersting because it was so different from what I expected. When I came to the Gospels the situation changed becaue suddenly Jesus preached to me as well. I did not like what I read I destroyed all the main wishes I had for my life. It was very tought and I was a spoiled brat. So then I tried to find a way out. The more I had critical objections to what was said the more they were refuted by logic. I was rounded up by arguments truth and logic. I had to come to the conlusion that it is the truth. God has come to us on this planet and He told us exactly what is going on.
You might expect that I turned to God. I did not. Although knowing the truth I refused to yield to God because I loved my dolc vita.
I took me another 7 years to finally come to Him. All the time when I had questions or obejctions God answered. I cannot deny that. It was scary and amazing. He answered.
I am an agnostic, meaning I don't know if I believe or if I don't. All I'm sure about is that this world is in danger and the people are suffering. They should not suffer. At the moment people don't believe we can change much, I disagree. If people who believe in God wish to help, then they can, it is their right. I welcome them with open arms, because they understand and see what the truth is. When we say the 99% we must mean it for all people. The people remain "the people", and should not be divided by any categorization based on anything. You are a believer, I am not. We are not so different you and I. There are only different ideas and points of view, not different people.
I see a problem. The 99% suffers also because of the 1%. But we also suffer because of our own unrighteousness. Jesus came to set men free. The root of captivitiy is their own sin. So Jesus wants us to set free all the way. From outer and inner oppression. Do you admit that we suffer from out own faults as well?
What faults do you mean?
Love your neighbor as yourself.
Yes, I keep hearing people say that our nature is evil or that we are natural sinners. It makes think that people's minds are suffering. What does the good book say about our nature? I see some do good, it is almost as if evil has invaded and occupied our minds. It is almost as if people think that good can never be achieved anymore. That it is a waste of time to try, like jesus did.
Are you free of any evil?
I think so.
You love God with all you heart, mind and soul and your neighbor as yourself continously?
[Deleted]
---------------Had to erase it because it answered an erased comment
If the testimony of Jesus means anything, along with his kind who are revered across the globe for good reason, its because of the Humane Values that he and they avow. It's not a question of supporting or promoting religious lunacy, all too common among proponents of institutionalized religion, and the Dogma of salvation in the hereafter; but of recognizing that Moral Values, what I am calling Humane Values, or the lack thereof, are at the heart of the kind of abuses that Occupiers are devoted to overthrowin.
I would agree that Religion is a hoax, and that the bread and butter of xtianity is irrational hockum...but to cast-off Jesus and his testimony because men have used and abused his insights is to throw the baby out with the bathwater. It's just another form of the hierarchical strata of conceit that says: Truth is thus and not otherwise, therefor those who do not apply themselves to our version of the Truth are not to play in our game of truthtelling and reformation. It's a conceit on par with every proud and authoritarian Dogma that enslaves the minds of men and limits the venues of our animating inspirations. It's just plain misguided.
Within this Spiritual Tradition is the notion that there are forces at work in the world to enslave Humanity; and not the least of these is the service that mankind gives to Mammon, the god of riches, for which good reason Jesus said: "You cannot serve BOTH God and Mammon, for you will cling to the one and hate the other."
Now, we needn't translate the term God into a xtian idea of Supreme Diety, but we can translate God into Humane Values and contrast that perfectly with the inhumane values of wealth acquisition that drives the corruption of politics and enslavement of native peoples, among the other captives of this dominant system. Further, in this Spiritual Tradition there is embodied the notion that Two forces work together for the enslavement of humanity...the False Prophet, whom we can readily and directly equate to Poltics (what Force is best suited to organize society based upon agreed values) and Antichrist, whom we can just as directly and immediately equate with the inhumane value of Wealth, or Mammon in the lexicon of this Spiritual Tradition. Taken together, this alliance of Politics and Wealth constitute a direct parallel to the Vision this tradition has of a world enslaved by evil, against which is proposed a Cooperative Model based on Humane Values...a kind of Brotherhood of Man, imbued with a spirit of Generosity and mutual Rescue.
I would urge that Occupiers not too easily dismiss the power of this language and metaphor as being out-of-place, as an unprejudiced look at the heart of this tradition, I believe, reveals a close accord with the Humane Values Occupiers hold to and those proposed by this and other Spiritual Traditions. To cringe at and disclude such a discourse from our efforts here is short-sighted, if not narrow minded, and robs Occupy of yet another angle of attack upon the Powers bent on our enslavement...which Powers, btw, will not hesitate nor have hesitated, to use this tradition to the advantage of their propoganda machine, especially in America...and one should be shrewd enough to be able to fight the enemy on their own terms, or yield some part of the field to THEIR encampment.
I happen to cringe at much of this original posters manner and emphasis, however, as do probably most here. But that does not disaude me from adopting an angle of attack that speaks directly to the problem here and involves language and metaphors suited to that.
Occupy Christianity!
I can see that you reflect on post and thinking is very good. It is by wisdom good policies are made. It is by folly to corrupt the system and seek unjust gain. But what is the source of wisdom? Wisdom is based on righteousness. righteousness is based on a love for all or equal love. The problem in your world view is that there is not one human who can say that he has cleansed his heart, he is free from sin.
I am happy to say that Jesus is pure in heart and He does has ultimate wisdom and he is alive.
So I advice you to think about the possibility of tapping into the wisdom of Jesus. Come to Him because He delights in giving wisdom.
I have read your posts, matthias...and I acknowledge your sincerity. I do not, however, support a dogmatic defence of your doctrine of salvation, except to day that, in the words of Jesus: "Whoso is not against us if for us."
Simply put...whoever loves, is born of God; for God is love. That's really the long and short of it, and I see no good reason to buy-into what appears to be your institutionalized doctrine of salvation...while reference to Wisdom opens up another discussion that takes us to an era that is pre-christian and which does not at all require mankind to adopt your emphasis upon Jesus the person. If you wish to speak of the spirit of Christ as the Annointed...that's a different story, which better suits a reasonable discussion upon the Humane Values at the heart of our (humanity's) Wisdom Tradition. But we shouldn't confound the two.
You may remember that the ministry of Jesus was characterized as being in the Order of Melchizadec...which historically falls to Shem, son of Noah, and consiquently to Caananite tradition, one of whose princple dieties was the Morning Star, whom we identify as Venus (goddess of love)...and in Revelations Jesus says "I am the britght and Morning Star."
So, you can see why it is difficult for an thinking person at all familiar with the Historical Evidence to conclude in favor of your fairly narrowing emphasis. Religious language is highly metaphorical, going through many stages of mutation through the ages, and to cling to Christianity's fairly childish and certainly narrow emphasis of meaning is just another invitation to Cultism...the Personality Cult which they have made of the person of Jesus. So, I'm just pointing out to you that We can agree upon a very broad use of metaphorical terms for the same purpose, quite apart from fixating on Dogmatic, cultish ideas, which in my book is tantamount to Idolatry. Best wishes.
May I ask you a question? Were you educated in Christianity when you were a child. You are well informed so I assume that either your parents or Sunday School teachers put a lot of effort in teaching you. Am I right?
Well, one of my parents felt it was a good idea to be catechized...so I'm familiar with the tenets of xtianity...and throughout my adult life, being interested in Intellectual History, I have spent some time tracing the driving ideas of Western Civilization...graduating college with a major in Liberal Arts concentrating on Cultural and Literary Criticism. That's not to say I have no spiritual devotions...I do...but I look to aesthetics and historical criticism as my 'tool' for grasping what may be the central importance of any given idea, moral/intellectual. I just wish that the best of our hoped-for future may prevail, whatever that takes.
Thank you. May the Lord bless you.
And you, also.
I think he spoke in Aramaic so I wouldn't understand a word he said. I suspect I would see the truth in his eyes, if he actually existed.
Thanks to translators you can hear him speak in over 2000 languages. What makes you not believe it?
Hopefully we can get the other side to pray for forgiveness. Some of the worst acts are in the attached video...Thought you might be interested in this. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNLKel-g6u4
What do you mean by that? That WallSt won't get forgiveness?
He might say "Use the Talents you have and fear no man" I just saw the attached video and was blown away. Thanks to the artist Tijon!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNLKel-g6u4
It is true that He says fear no man because they can only kill your body and after that they have no power. But He continues to say but fear God. which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Do you know that?
Du bist klugscheizer.
The Revolution has a new theme song!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-L-GOHa5-YQ
http://occupywallst.org/forum/in-the-name-of-allah/
The Revolution starts here!
You should use a different translation machine. It is not working very well. Anyway I wish you all the best. Take care
No that's the correct way, unless I'm supposed to use ein or eine, anyways, you understand.
You are something. You have a problem accepting the truth. Now you even argue about German. It is Klugscheißer or if you don't have ß ist is Klugscheisser.
Yes, the funny looking B equals two s. I told you that my message was understood. :P
The Revolution has a new theme song!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-L-GOHa5-YQ
http://occupywallst.org/forum/in-the-name-of-allah/
The Revolution starts here!
But don't forget the revolution started 2000 years ago when Jesus died for the sins of the world. Do you have forgiveness of sins?
I am without sin.
The Revolution has a new theme song!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-L-GOHa5-YQ
http://occupywallst.org/forum/in-the-name-of-allah/
The Revolution starts here!
We know what you're really up to matthias:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5607154056114176603#
Jesus should have gotten a job!!!
Ok, you tried a joke. But have you ever thought about that the problems the US faces and OWS protests against is a systematic problem throughout the world throughout history? Governments are corrupted by gifts of money and riches? Why is it? WIth a narrowminded approach you will not solve the problem?
lulz. Something flew over your head. What would you say if I told you that the government declared the world as a battlefield?
http://armedservices.house.gov/index.cfm/files/serve?File_id=23d194d7-78c9-4c57-b2d9-31bc3bb7daeb
Yesterday I figured that the world is a battlefield. All or most governments are against the Lord to be King. Many persecute Christians and the other part permit the country to be flooded with all kinds of evil like greed.
Persecute Christians? Every president for many years has been christian and it's a controversy if they're not, like Romney and what some of them do to Obama even though he's a christian himself. Sorry but in the USA, the christians are far from persecution. Members of the Jesus club actually persecute people in the name of jesus all the time. The KKK. The westboro baptist church, the catholic church's cover up of child molesting, the heavily christian GOP and their in the name of the bible attack on gay rights. Obviously there are a ton of amazing christian people out their who practice their religion respectfully, but the christian faith is not persecuted in anyway.
Why would Jesus want to be King? Kings are dictators.
The USA is not the only country in the world. I know that Americans are not too interested in the rest of the world. But if you look around the persecution of Christians is very high WORLDWIDE. You asked an interesting question. Why would Jesus want to be King? Maybe because he realizes that He is the only one erernally faithful to take care of the weak and rule in righteousness.
If Jesus is eternally faithful why isn't he taking care of the weak right now? Why do bad things happen to good people? Why do christians pick and choose which aspects of the bible to believe in and follow? Why don't Christians gouge out an eyeball if their eye causes them to sin? That is in the bible.
Jesus sows His word. It is up to people whether it is taken away by the devil, or whether they fall away immediately or whether riches, pleasures or worries choke it OR whether it bears good fruit. Final judgement will show what group someone belongs to. Now to the question why he is not taking care of the weak right now. First of all He does, but not on a global scale. But you are right it is not on a global scale. I am not Jesus so I can give you only thoughts I have: He is patient with evil doers. He wants all people to repent and be saved. So he gives them time. Secondly everything is made for a purpose. suffering is awful but not all the way. It has also helpful effects. Like people seeking the Lord again. Not all poor people seek His help. Actually some of them are very much against Him. He is in charge of all the world. We are only aware of a tiny little part. He sees all factors involved, we see only a tiny part of it. He is good we are not. I can imagine that my answer is not satisfying. I am sorry but I am a human whoes understanding is like a sandcorn at the beach. May the Lord give you the answer.
Why do christians pick and choose which aspects of the bible to believe in and follow?
If it is true that I do that I must change. Please tell me what part I leave out.
How come Christians don't gouge out their eyeball if they use it sinfully? The bible says you're supposed to do that. Matthew 18:9
Like if you look at your neighbors wife or friend's husband and think sexual thoughts.
You are right if you look at her lustfully you must take drastic steps. But this applies to you as well because you have heard it. How come you know so much?
It does not apply to me for I do not believe the Bible to be true.
I don't know everything about the Jesus faiths but when you have a lot of people trying to tell you that a guy could walk on water and the sky rained blood and that a guy saved all life forms on a boat... and they're everywhere... it's nice to know what they're about. So I've read quite a few aspects of the bible, done some online research, and I've talked with members of the Jesus faiths.
I guess you cannot be convinces of the truth of Jesus Christ right now. Maybe later in life when you face a crisis you cannot solve don't forget that Jesus is real, alive and very gracious. Anyway I wish you all the best.
I guess you can't be convinced of the truth that it's all made up.
"Maybe later in life when you face a crisis you cannot solve don't forget that Jesus is real."
Manipulation of the weak is immoral.
Dinosaurs.
So if you don't believe that Jesus was raised from the dead then you must think that all the main preachers of Christiantiy lied with fully knowing it. But did they lead a life full of suffering and even death for something they knew to be wrong. I agree that if some American Christian preachers make tons of money. So if it is wrong they lived in luxury but those people were persecuted and still they preached that Jesus is risen.
A religion holds power. To think that it is impossible for people to hold so close to a lie gives credence to such big lies as Scientology. Those people go around telling everyone it's true.
Where you train in Christian doctrine when you were a child?
My mom was raised Catholic but she lost all of her faith after being abused by nuns in her elementary school and witnessing a ton of abuse toward other children as well. She took us to a Christian church when we were little but my brother and I didn't like it so she didn't make us go..
Now we're all happy and moral people with no set belief structure of a God. In my honest opinion I think all religions hold no truth. I think the mystery of life and the after life cannot be explained by any person on this Earth. Not in this time at least.
__
Without life, there is no meaning. And that is the meaning of life.
That is my personal philosophy on existence.
The Revolution has a new theme song!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-L-GOHa5-YQ
http://occupywallst.org/forum/in-the-name-of-allah/
The Revolution starts here!
You seek deliverance from the power of corruption from the oppression of unjust gain. People will sing the song of Moses, when God delivered His people from the oppression of the Egyptians. Put your trust in Jesus Christ. All power is given to Him and He will free the oppressed.
You need to convert. Then you won't be so weak.
The Revolution starts here!
Salomon says: The patient one is better than the strong one.
You're just making excuses because you want to watch the world burn. You speak the tongue of the Great Satan's night slaves because you are one.
The Revolution starts here!
I think the Revolution should start with your opinions about good and evil.
Okay, I'm good and your evil.
The Revolution starts here!
What makes you good?
I don't pray at the feet of the Great Satan.
The Revolution starts here!
Who told you that He is Satan?
The same one who told me about your latent homosexual tendencies. Dude, you just have to come out of the closet. Everyone already knows anyways. You can't change who you are. You're just going to have to deal with it.
The Revolution has a new theme song!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-L-GOHa5-YQ
http://occupywallst.org/forum/in-the-name-of-allah/
The Revolution starts here!
Who is he?
Lou Reed
The Revolution has a new theme song!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-L-GOHa5-YQ
http://occupywallst.org/forum/in-the-name-of-allah/
The Revolution starts here!
Are you on drugs?
You're just going to have to come to grips with the fact you like to make love to men. Besmirching me won't change that.
The Revolution has a new theme song!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-L-GOHa5-YQ
http://occupywallst.org/forum/in-the-name-of-allah/
The Revolution starts here!
General Jack D. Ripper: Your Commie has no regard for human life, not even of his own. For this reason men, I want to impress upon you the need for extreme watchfulness. The enemy may come individually, or in strength. He may even appear in the form of our own troops. But however we must stop him. We must not allow him to gain entrance to this base. Now, I'm going to give you THREE SIMPLE rules: First, trust NO one, whatever his uniform or rank, unless he is known to you personally; Second, anyone or anything that approaches within 200 yards of the perimeter is to be FIRED UPON; Third, if in doubt, shoot first then ask questions later. I would sooner accept a few casualties through accidents rather losing the entire base and its personnel through carelessness. Any variation of these rules must come from me personally. Any variation on these rules must come from me personally. Now, men, in conclusion, I would like to say that, in the two years it has been my privilege to be your commanding officer, I have always expected the best from you, and you have never given me anything less than that. Today, the nation is counting on us. We're not going to let them down. Good luck to you all.
get your kill face on son...locked cocked ready to rock. 6 foot 6 and bullet proof.
General "Buck" Turgidson: Mr. President, we are rapidly approaching a moment of truth both for ourselves as human beings and for the life of our nation. Now, truth is not always a pleasant thing. But it is necessary now to make a choice, to choose between two admittedly regrettable, but nevertheless distinguishable, postwar environments: one where you got twenty million people killed, and the other where you got a hundred and fifty million people killed. President Merkin Muffley: You're talking about mass murder, General, not war! General "Buck" Turgidson: Mr. President, I'm not saying we wouldn't get our hair mussed. But I do say no more than ten to twenty million killed, tops. Uh, depending on the breaks.
“Nunquam Ante Numquam Iterum” "...If it concerns anything not in our control, be prepared to say that it is nothing to you…” “Some things are up to us and some are not up to us. Our opinions are up to us, and our impulses, desires, aversions— in short, whatever is our own doing…So remember, if you think that things are naturally enslaved are free or that things not your own are your own, you will be thwarted, miserable and upset; and will blame both gods and men…And if it is about one of the things that is not up to us, be ready to say, “You are nothing in relation to me.” “There is only one way to happiness and that is to cease worrying about things, which are beyond the power or our will. ” “It is not so much what happens to you as how you think about what happens." “Never say that I have taken it, only that I have given it back.” “Only the educated are free.” “It is impossible for a man to learn what he thinks he already knows.” “Work, therefore to be able to say to every harsh appearance, "You are but an appearance, and not absolutely the thing you appear to be." And then examine it by those rules which you have, and first, and chiefly, by this: whether it concerns the things which are in our own control, or those which are not; and, if it concerns anything not in our control, be prepared to say that it is nothing to you…” Epictetus
Are you drunk? Here, watch this:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5607154056114176603#
I don't drink
You would if the girl in that video was buying. I'm glad I made your day. Now that I have your attention, make your you read about Toshiba and Enterprise Rent A Car, the songs are used to get people's attention.
http://occupywallst.org/forum/in-the-name-of-allah/
stop wasting our time. you're an idiot. busted; what your posting about has nothing do with occupy my Muslim brother...
kill Toshiba; kill rent a car... go phuck yourself fool
You are not the boss of me, pervert.
The Revolution starts here!
Turn to Jesus and pray to Lord Almighty, and then you will have help.
Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound, That saved a wretch like me. I once was lost but now am found, Was blind, but now I see.
T'was Grace that taught my heart to fear. And Grace, my fears relieved. How precious did that Grace appear The hour I first believed.
Through many dangers, toils and snares I have already come; 'Tis Grace that brought me safe thus far and Grace will lead me home.
The Lord has promised good to me. His word my hope secures. He will my shield and portion be, As long as life endures.
Yea, when this flesh and heart shall fail, And mortal life shall cease, I shall possess within the veil, A life of joy and peace.
When we've been here ten thousand years Bright shining as the sun. We've no less days to sing God's praise Than when we've first begun.
"Look ye, countrymen and Thebans, this is Oedipus the great, He who knew the Sphinx's riddle and was mightiest in our state. Who of all our townsmen gazed not on his fame with envious eyes? Now, in what a sea of troubles sunk and overwhelmed he lies! Therefore wait to see life's ending ere thou count one mortal blest; Wait till free from pain and sorrow he has gained his final rest."
Interesting mix. However I don't understand it. Please explain.
The Founding Fathers came to this country to escape persecution of their religious beliefs. THEY set up the government such that Clergy and Politicians DO NOT MIX. They don't and never have. This thread, while inspiring, has no place in the debates ongoing in this country relating to the current political corruption.
And look where we are today...being persecuted by right wing Christian fundamentalists today in America. So,actually, in a round about a way, this thread does have significant relevance in this effort to restore law and order in this country. The scary thing is that the Christian fundamentalists who are persecuting us are hardly Christian and using God, Christianity and Jesus as their platform to manipulate and control the population through fear of the unknown. GWB often made comments like ' you're either with us or against us' and insinuated that pacifists were not patriots and even told us that it was GOD who inspired him to go to war. I agree that religion and politics should not mix but we can't deny that religion has always been at the root of political agendas for obvious reasons. If the citizens of this world would live some moral and ethical code derived by their own spiritual relationship with God or any other manifestation there of, then we would not be in the hell we are in today ( assuming that God represents all that is loving and good).
I try to sort out the facts of what you said. The puritans came to the US in 1620. The Declaration of Independence was in 1776. There was not one Puritan in the Constitutional Convention. Of the 55 delegates to the 1787 Constitutional Convention 3 were Cathlic, 28 were from Church of England, 8 were Presbyterians, 7 were Congregationalists, 2 were Lutherans, 2 were Dutch Reformed, and 2 were Methodists. And then you had the none Christians. At that time Methodism was florishing in England and they could persue theit faith without persecution. IN fact John Wesley the founder of Methodism said about the uproar in the Colonies that it is about taxes. 42 of the delegates were either operators of slave operated plantations or farms or businessmen. I do not believe that all or most these people went to the USA because they were religiously persecuted.
The Pilgrims were devout people devoted to the law of God which says that you do not rebell against the authorities. The pilgrims did not start a rebellion in England or the Netherlands but they went away.
The Founding Fathers did rebell against the King of England and had no problem to shed blood to persue that interest. While some of them kept slaves they were complainig against the King of England that he does not give them enough say in government. Look I know that there is big pride in the USA on the Founding Fathers and I also know that children are taught to look at them as very good people but I am from Europe and must tell you that it is a huge hypocricy to rebell against the King of England and deny slaves any rights while proclaiming that all men are created equal. Chrisitanity is very opposed to hypocricy.
Most important I must tell you that you seem to have a false nothion of the Christian religion. Jesus did not come to only set up a new church with clergy and church goers but he came to set up a new Kingdom.
In a Kingdom there are religious pastors but also authorities who are likewise commanded to obey God's King, Jesus Christ. Each one according to his office.
Jesus is the true ruler also over the USA. But the Founding Fathers decided to not only rebell against the King of England but also to not include Jesus Christ as head of the USA:
I know very well that all nations I know act likewise. Jesus is thrown out of government.
And what is the fruit of it. One of the main fruits is what OWS demonstrates against. The rule of riches over politics. But is it anything new? Were the slaves of George Washington any better of than the people who suffer in the USA?
The USA was founded on slavery and the spirit is there to this day.
Jesus would welcome all OWS protesters and supporters with welcome arms. If He was here on Earth.
But do you think the OWS protesters are welcoming Him?
Jesus would scale the tallest mountain throw his hands to the sky and shout "God bless everyone in the whole universe and bring peace and love to all life forever and ever till the end of time" AMEN.
Jesus is not coming back. This planet, as anyone can plainly see, is ruled by Beelzebub itself. One only has to look at the faces of the current members of the GOP. Or look at Limbaugh or O'Reilly if you can stand it.
Hmmmmm, where do you stand?
I stand with jesus in my heart. For jesus is our one true and only saviour. OWS could use a little Jesus in our life. You know the part in the bible when the Jews were nailing Jesus to the cross, they spent days torturing him and starving him and with his dying breath what dose he utter " FOrgive them dear lord for they know not what they do." When I think of the crooked Banking cartels on wall street and corrupt government officials I always try to remember that quote from Jesus. EEHH
What do you think of All Jesus in our government and business. I was thinking about the concept of the Kingdom of God. Jesus did not preach the Gospel of a new church or religion but a Kingdom? The main life of a Kingdom is in business and a central part is the political system. I believe it will come. What do you think?
Jesus Christ wants you to get your sorry ass over here and support this poor family. They should not be alone on Christmas!
http://occupywallst.org/forum/enterprise-rent-a-car-murders-children/
The Revolution starts here!
"Kick out the JAMS, Muthafuckas!"
(Jaded, Anarcho-Market Sociopaths)
...Or as Jesus called them: "The Money Changers"
What do you think about the Kingdom of God?
I think it's a pretty broad topic and as such, probably outside the scope of this forum thread.
Today I myself thought about the Kingdom of God and I tell you this is exactly what this forum needs to understand. Because it is the hope for all who want change in the society in business and politics. All are part of a Kingdom. Christianity is reduced by some to a denomination, a church at the end of the road or some personal devotion. Jesus came to set up a Kingdom which is not ruled by the spirit of WallSt and Washington and this Kingdom is already there!!!!!!! And it will come and take over these areas of government and business and then people will live in peace and love. Now when will it be? There were very learned Hostorians and theologian who said it would happen NOW in our time.
I don't know. It would probably take Him quite a while to get around to addressing the OWS, as He would likely be kept quite busy kicking over the money changers tables and denouncing the modern day pharacies!
The interesting thing is that eventually He will make an end to the rule of money and then we will see it first hand ( if we are alive) Who do you think are the modern day pharacies?
It's not all religious. I believe any in power, in a position of leadership, any who the people look to for leadership and advice, Who take the truth and twist it for their own purposes to manipulate the people, these are the modern day pharacies.
By the way are you from Coon Rapids. I am German living in Germany but I was a Foreign Exchange student living in Anoka, Mn. So I have been to Coon Rapids. The world is small. May the Lord bless you.
Yes I am currently living in Coon Rapids in Anoka County. It is a very small world and getting smaller by the day. May the Lord bless you your family and all your works towards a healthy and moral world.
I once lived in a town called Spokane in Washington State. One of the highway signs had iodization on it to prevent oxidation from the weather to make the metal last longer. By some fluke of circumstance one of the signs had what appeared to be, if you looked hard enough, the image of Mary. People began worshipping the sign. Why? Maybe religion should be kept as a personal belief system and not a group think process.
Idoletry is bigger than true reasonable faith. No faith is unreasonable as well because it against any statistics that evolution is true. Is is denying mathematics.
by what you are saying, i should have faith because others have faith. others believe socialism is the best. others believe capitalism is the best. what statistic should I be fallowing. should i not fallow my inner voice. mind you as I grow that voice grows too. randart makes a good point about group think. group think is what gave us corporatism and shoddy wall street execs. bush's cronies suffered group think.
I suppose you have THE true and reasonable faith. Have you ever noticed that the story of Jesus is nearly identical to the story of Mithras? It is a story that was a part of Egypt too.
I am skeptical about mass group think beliefs. If there were such a thing as a Moral Majority in this country then the whole problem we face would never have happened. All I see are liars and deceivers that prey on people's hope of something beyond this life.
Are you without sin? And if you are not. Do you want forgivness?
One thing I have come to realize is that I never asked to be here in the first place. I resent being subjected to "original sin" philosophy by those who claim to be Christian.
If this God thing is omniscient and all knowing then before I was even born it supposedly knew what my life would be. Even knowing my life's end before it began it still is supposedly holding me guilty for existing and yet it created me anyway. What am guilty of? Is it that I exist?
So, my answer is yes, I am without sin. I have flaws and faults but I never asked to partake in this god game so I reject that I am born in sin. That concept is no more than a control mechanism put forth by the "pious" dictators of human thought.
In all my years on this planet I can count on one hand people who I see actually living up to the basic rules of the book they say they believe in.
And what should I ask forgiveness for? Being born?
Sin is the trangression of the law. There is no law you shall not be born. If I ask whether you are without sin I mean, have you ever trangessed the law of God after you were born. In other words: Did you ever act not with equal love for your neighbor?
Just double speak.
The only thing I feel I have a choice about is to determine what is right and what is wrong.
Look you know very well that you have chosen the wrong sometime in your life. The first step to freedom is to ackowledge it.
This conversation is going nowhere. I have studied the Bible, the history of Christianity, Gnosticism, various Buddhist philosophies and found them all lacking in the end. The closest thing I have come across is Taoism which I see as a philosophy of life and not a religion.
Give it up. You will not convert me to a belief system that has a history of crimes against humanity in the name of an unseen magical being.
I am afraid that you are right that I wont be able to see the huge difference between the Gospel and all other religions. I wish all the best.
Actually I saw Jesus on September 17. He was wearing tight pants, long hair, dark skin and was sitting in a circle with his disciples and his girl friend Madeleine...They slept on the square and decided that being just people was better than being rich. Just go figure...
What you have done to the least of my brothers you have done to me, Jesus says
This is a life lesson - thank you. I am not a christian but there are very few christians who live by this golden rule and I constantly like to remind them than self righteousness / individualism has replaced this self effacing attitude.
How about you become a Christian. Christ is waiting and would be happy if you come. He knows you.
Jesus would say "Come to the Promiseland."
http://occupywallst.org/forum/make-a-stand-join-the-clan/
The Revolution starts here! No one can silence the Revolution!
How should this help?
This company has gone out of it's way to create one disaster after another. Like Hitler, the world would be a much better place without Toshiba.
The Revolution starts here!
But don't you agree that the problem is bigger than one company?
Yes, it's bigger than one company. But that doesn't mean we don't have to go after Toshiba.
Our power and resources are limited as well. So isn't wise to use it in order to get most out of it?
I think it's wise to stop Toshiba before they do anymore damage.
http://www.boycottowl.com/Toshiba/79
http://www.zdnet.com/news/toshiba-to-pay-2b-settlement-on-laptops/103804
http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2009/03/class-action-se/
http://www.consumeraffairs.com/computers/toshiba.html
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=2213279355#!/group.php?gid=2213279355&v=wall
http://www.nytimes.com/1988/04/15/opinion/l-punishing-toshiba-is-a-secondary-boycott-809388.html
http://www.commonground.ca/iss/199/cg199_nukes.shtml
http://ajw.asahi.com/article/0311disaster/fukushima/AJ201104154211
But is not the bad coming out of Toshiba a fruit of a root that makes many more companies bad?
No, Toshiba's problem is they liked to fuck over those who can't defend themselves. Just like Jesus was fucked over because he could not defend himself. I don't think I can make it any clearer. By the way, Jesus is down with the KTC.
The Revolution starts here!
Please think about one thing. Jesus was murdered ALTHOUGH He could have defended himself. He said at his arrest to Peter: Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels? He also said to Peter who wanted to defend Jesus with the sword: Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.
No, Jesus tried to call his father, but he couldn't get any reception. As for Peter, he would have got his ass whipped because Paul and Mary weren't around. Everyone knows those three only know how to fight in a group. You have to get with it brother. Jesus is down with the KTC and so should you be!
The Revolution starts here!
Have you heard about the downfall of communist East Germany. The system came down within a couple of weeks without violence and bloodshed. Do you know why?
Because of America and the KTC!
Even Jesus prays at the altar of the KTC! You need to get with Jesus and join the KTC!
The Revolution starts here!
I think our discussion is repeating itself right now. I wish you the best and that you do not take the sword.
You must be an Atheist. A failure to believe will only buy you a one way ticket to hell. Join the KTC before it's too late. It's no fun being a minion of Lucifer.
The Revolution starts here!
No, faith moves mountains. A couple of people prayed at a church in one of the cities called Leipzig on Mondays. After some time the center of the mass demonstrations was this church and on Mondays. They were called Monday Demos. Faith moves mountains.
You are denying the will of Jesus!
The Revolution starts here!
I think OWS should strive to be a totally Secular Non Religious Movement in everything you do.
I am sorry to disagree but I think that by leaving out God you leave out the only one good and the one who cannot be bribed and this way forget about the poor. Why do you mistrust God to handle it?
I know what the buddha would say...
"I do not believe in a fate that falls on men however they act; but I do believe in a fate that falls on them unless they act."
God is a moral being acting on moral grounds of Him and humans. So I don't know how this fits into what you have written. What do you think how it fits into it?
I think Jesus studied Buddhism, but I'm a free-thinker like that. Both of them would encourage us to do for ourselves, in all matters, including tending to our own souls. He would ask us not to compromise our morality in our thoughts, actions, or words. He would also tell us to stand together as one people, above partisanship, with love of our fellow beings and the Earth, and to unite ourselves in defense of the fascists who would enslave us, corrupt our minds with un-truth, and turn our noble government towards evil, self-serving ends...
I think we have a fundamental difference in repsect to where the force of change comes from. What I understand of your position is that man have to do the right thing from their own moral strength. I believe that there is no man who can say his heart is pure or he has cleansed his heart. I think the power of moral change comes from only one who is good God. A perfect system will not change men's heart and that is the reason why God has send Jesus as a person and afterwards His Holy Spirit to man so that the Spirit works on the hearts of man to become better. Is my assessment of our difference in thinking correct?
Well, I think we're closer than you might think, it kinda depends on how much you stock you put in the New Testament, versus the Apocryphal texts, and the traditions of other religious faiths. I will go out on a limb, and say that God is a loving force that lives within all hearts of humanity, more hidden to some, though it may be. Regardless of your religious denomination, it boils down to a question of whether God will save your soul, or whether you have the power to choose to walk the enlightened path for yourself.
Thus, our souls are ours to lose to the temptations of this Earth. Extending that same metaphor to the physical world, I suggest that it would be a major personal failure to let our Government do whatever it wants, or to put our faith in the hands of any theocratic man or entity, or to rely on God above to sort it all out for us. That's a sure recipe for slavery in one of many forms. Our duty, today, is to actively protest, and then try to reform our government, so that it once more serves the people's needs, instead of rewarding fascists for their betrayal of our faith. Anything else would be an abdication that would surely threaten our very souls.
I want to introduce a new concept which we have not mentioned. Humility which comes from the fact that all people have sinned and there is no one righteous by His own works. Therefore it takes the sacrifice of Jesus who voluntarily died for us so we can live and this way
Agreed. Seriously, I think Jesus studied a lot of Buddhism.
I don't know that much about Buddism. Was there a prophet raised from the dead?
To me Jesus is the source of all true wisdom. I study wisdom a lot but it starts with the fear of the Lord. It is does not end there because it leads to the knowledge of the love of God. And the love of God drives out fear. But all in all it is the knowledge of God.
It took you exactly 5 minutes to respond. You're not thinking hard enough, and I don't mean to offend you when I say that.
Look my heart is not right. If it were right if I would have perfect love I don't no Jesus. So of course I come to Jesus with a heart that is not right to be healed. The pure motivation for everything is love. But I don't have it. So of course my motivation for coming to Jesus is likewise. I should come to Him out of pure love. But it is not the case. So in a sense many things you said are right in pointing out a wrong motivation. Do you understand what I want to say?
I do. Very much so. My day has started, but I'll get back to you in the evening. I'm not gonna convert you to any religion, I promise.
I will answer in a parable. Let's say a book is found describing the perfect place to live called Austria. Everything is beautiful. Plenty of resources and places for recreation. Someone says that Austria is only a picture of the perfect country and we have to discover the beauty of the country where we are. But another one says I am sorry but I have been to Austria and it is a real country and I will move there. What I want to say is that I have experienced God and the Holy Spirit. They are real and not something in me, something vague.
Good enough for me.
See you later
Ok, here's a thought. If you have difficulty making "the leap of faith" it's not because you're somehow lacking character... It's because you are an adult, and a critical thinker. Deciding one day to believe in "magic/miracles" is a bit like deciding the world is flat. Tricky, but doable. Find you own way to whatever faith you pursue. You were given a brain, so look for the universal truths. Blind faith is worse than no faith, in some ways. So, ask yourself... "why do I want to walk this path..." It's a rewarding way to live, I assure you. There's no easy answers, so that's why you have to look within yourself, and trust your instincts at times. Don't take my word for anything. However, you will have to expel hate from your heart, banish your soul's sickness from your brain, and, you have to continue to be an active seeker. It won't happen overnight, any kind of healing happens a piece at a time, it's a gradual process. Don't let fear for your soul be such a motivating factor, that'll rush you into a place that feels insincere. Most religions offer a path to enlightenment and salvation, through genuine efforts to change "your evil ways." Hope, and love are two things all religions will offer you. I hope that helps.
He'd tell us to Occupy Christmas.
Christmas has been indeed invaded by the moneychangers. It is horrible how the love money has crept into society.
And the retail wars and what shoppers become in the process is sick and sad. Mean-spiritedness and desperation characterizes the Christmas season this year -- it's uglier from my vantage point than it ever has been before.
You sow what you reap. The country has prospered on the concept of competition - one man against another - and now you can see more and more ugly fruits coming out.
That's why it's so important to plant the seeds of positive change by living with integrity at all times, no matter how difficult it can be. It's our behavior in every single moment that plants the seeds. Read Mathew...about the sower of seed. We must also realize that it is not right for us to expect to be acknowledged or receive accolades for our good deeds on this earth. We are not here to win prizes or receive tokens to heaven. We are here as role models of great goodness.
Thanks for your good thought.
Would Jesus advocate the use of force?
The Bible teaches to submit to the authorities. Back then the Roman Emperors ruled. Their rule was pretty cruel to what I have heard. But Jesus encourages to ask God to bring righteousness. I live in Germany. It used to be devided. But there were a couple of Christians in East Germany who met on Mondays at a church in a big city called Leipzig for reunification. East Germany was communistic. After a couple of years mass demonstartations started to be held on Monday starting at that church. They brought the system down within a couple of weeks without blood shed. God heard their prayers. Prayer is more effective than any weapon.
Yes - Excellent ! I wonder why all the communist countries need to lock the borders to keep people in?
There are not many left. All of our neighbors like Poland, Czech Republic are not communist anymore. God has shut them down. But this unrightous system that the western part still has is still around. But I have not met many people who pray for a change. On the other hand it does not take many as we can see in East Germany. So I encourage you to pray for righteousness to come in the USA.
@ Matthias......Exodus 21:20-21 If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property.
I don't understand what you want to say? The law of God a set of laws very different from the ones we are used to. Are you aware that there were no prisons. The prison system was a one of servanthood. Have you heard what is going on in US prisons? I have seen SWAT teams going into prisons because it is so dangerous. I have heard of terrible situations in prisons. In Israel you went into servanthood and after 7 years you were released.
@Matthias.....God endorsed slavery.Exodus 21:20-21.....No prisons because everything was a death sentence, work on the Sabbath =death,dis your Parents=death,get raped=death,dis god=death,don't pray=death.. Is this enough for you.
It is not true that everything was a death sentence. There were death sentences. This is true. But has not the giver of life the right to take what He has created when His creation refuses to obey good and chooses to do evil?
@Matthias..So your saying God can kill for no good reason whenever it feels the need. You didn't address the God endorsed slavery.
If you think the law through. You will realize that there were no prisons. When you went into slavery than only because you did something wrong. Robbing human beings and enslaving them was also a capital crime. So as a criminal you were not put into a jail where there are many people maybe worse than you but you came to a normal family to be also reintegratged into normal life. I have heard very cruel stories about American prisons that are also run by gangs and the authorities have to come with SWAT teams to search the cells. So if I have a choice of being thrown into an American prison lets say in California or be a servant at my neigbors family I happily pick the latter. There was a release of all "slaves" every seven years. It is true that this only applies to Israelites. Heathens who have rejected God were not released. Which has a different moral justification.
@Matthias...You said......."There was a release of all "slaves" every seven years. It is true that this only applies to Israelites. Heathens who have rejected God were not released. Which has a different moral justification".
So you and God are okay with slavery.
First of all with Jesus coming the extend of His kingdom reaches the end of the world now. Second of all you must be aware that there were no prisons. Slavery which was limited to 7 years replaced prisons. After world war II German soldiers were partly in Russian prison camps or were send to the USA to work on farms as "slaves". WHich one would you have picked having a choice. I have heard of horrible situations in prisons. The problem with the law of God is that it is only partly known and not understood oftentimes. One law by itself might look cruel but after thinking about it and taking into consideration the other laws which aplly to the same situation it is just great.
@Matthias...So you agree, you and God are okay with slavery.
I am not ok with slavery as you understand it.
@Matthias....So your not pleased with your God's endorsement of slavery, am I correct?
The people who are truely slaves are the ones who sin. They are slave of sin. The Son of God gave his life so people can get free of this ultimate slavery. God is the only one who sets the slaves free forever. It is man who choose to sin and enslave themselves. It is God who sets them free if they understand it. So if you portray God as the slave driver or endorser thereof you have not understood what sin is and what the Gospel is about.
I do believe in the Bible. Yes, I do.
@Matthias.......It is not I who portrays God as endorsing slavery. The Bible is the word of God:............................ Exodus 21:20-21 If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property.
Never mind. I wish you a merry Christmas. Good bye.
I do believe in the Bible. Yes, I do.
@Matthias...Good then we agree you and god support slavery....good bye.
If someone murders and God commands to put the murderer to death who is the evil person? God or the murderer? Do you know when someone becomes a slave?
@Matthias...So your telling me you don't believe the bible.
He would say smoke more dmt
I think I will get to try that really soon actually. I'm excited.
What do you know about Jesus. I mean it seriously. I am interested. Maybe you have incorrect information?
Please enlighten me with the correct information you insinuate that you have
Jesus Christ was born 2000 years ago. He said that He has lived before He was born and that He is the Son of God. He came to preach the Good News for the poor and to annouce the year of pardon. He called people to repent and be saved from their sin. Then He was crucified but rose from the dead. He prophecied that His message will be preached all over the world and that His Kingdom will grow to be bigger than all others. He is alive and ready to save you here and now. If you repent and believe in Him and follow Him through His word He will not only forgive all of your sins but also give you eternal life in His Kingdom where there will be no more suffering and unrighteousness.
I am Jesus Christ. Yep. The Bible was pretty clear on that.
Now tell me, don't you want to come to the light and confess your sins and be free?
I am the light.
Maybe you have a lighter but now get real? Are you happy with your life. Are you not burdened as well as we all are?
haha touche. Nah I get it. I just choose to interpret the gospels different than you I suppose. I could give you examples but I don't have them all memorized. But seriously, I have had my moments.
You know what facinates me. I pray to an invisible God but He answers. Don't agrre that this is something the world cannot give. You can ask people for help or advice. But you might not get an answer or a wrong one. What do you do when you are in trouble?
I believe that god is the unparticled matter. God is thought in motion. Basically god is manifested when one is thinking. So that is what I do. So for you, when you are praying, you are becoming god himself/herself/itself. That is why you get your answers. You should be grateful of that because most who pray likely get little or no response.
I agree, though I also believe that responses we receive from "ourselves as the divine" are often misinterpreted or missed altogether leaving the appearance that prayers have not been answered.
When I say prayer, much like when I say god, I am just trying to communicate something using somebody else's language. It is hard to talk about these things because everyone interprets the meaning of these words differently. I don't really think of them as prayers but more as just thoughts. How a thought comes about is what god is to me. That is why I believe we all have the potential to be god or divine or whatever. If somebody doesn't get an answer from themselves when they are thinking that is because that is what they are looking for. Thoughts just happen.
I come from Germany and 30 years ago a couple of people in Communist East Germany were praying for the reunification of Germany. They met on Mondays at a church in one the bigger cites calles Leipzig. About 20 years ago huge demonstration started on Mondays at that church and within of a couple of weeks the system was toppled completely peacefully. But there were many other things necessary as well like the downfall of the Soviet Union which answered with tanks when neighboring Czeck Republic tried the same. There were other parts of the puzzle coming together for this to happen. I cannot believe that their thoughts manifested so all this could happen. I believe it was a powerful God able to intervene everywhere to answer the prayers of those who have put thier trust in Him.
No it was the power of thought and the will of the elites that toppled those countries.
The elite was overrun by the events. It was not planned by them at all. The will cannot influence all events in life. If you want something to happen tomorrow as big as that, that let's say the income gap in the USA will be gone you will agree that this won't happen.
Well I was in Germany and watched the events unfold.
You clearly just didn't smoke enough dmt
when praying, remember NO is an answer.
You are ignorant.
please explain, understand what?
Because you think that prayer means asking god for favors. I was talking about something much deeper than that. Something beyond your comprehension obviously so you should probably stay out of it. Maybe you should get a life instead of pestering people on here with your stupid bullshit.
why? praying for what you want ( whatever it is)does not guarantee an affirmative answer. No is answer too.
You totally missed the point and with that attitude you will never understand.
Jesus Just want to Say........ http://occupywallst.org/forum/lets-solve-the-crysis-and-have-the-better-future/
Are you from India?
JESUS JUST WANT TO SAY..........(Click the Hyperlink below) http://occupywallst.org/forum/lets-solve-the-crysis-and-have-the-better-future/
Was Nostradamus a Christian? I hardly know anything about him.
Assuming that there actually was an historical Jesus, asking what any dead person would say about anything is a ridiculous question.
Maybe you have not heard that but there are over 500 witnesses who saw them being alive again. He was risen from the dead? Have you not heard about that?
There is no corroboration of the existence of an historical Jesus outside of the four gospels, as well as some other first century writing that were promulgated by heretic Christian groups such as the gnostics. Josephus discusses a Jesus (aka Joshua) but that was an extremely common first century Jewish name and could have been anybody.
There is evidence of Christian-like Jewish sects arising a full century before the supposed birth of the historical Jesus and certain aspects of the rise of Christianity only make sense if it is seen as developing considerably before the supposed birth of the historical Jesus.
It's a great myth. I'm all for the Golden Rule and I'm a practicing Quaker, but to assume that the various myths and stories surrounding a supposed historical Jesus in the New Testament have any grounding in reality is pure fantasy.
So what about all the prophecies of the books of the Jews that came to pass. The year of his birth was prophecied, the place, the process. His ministry was described and so on. I am afraid that your knowledge is not very profound.
There is absolutely no corroborating evidence that anything about the life of Jesus is true outside of the gospel. Certainly nothing about the murder of first born, clearly ripped off from Genisis. Our course there is no rathional discourse possible with someone who insists on believing this crap and who knows nothing about what life was like in Palestine in the first century BCE.
Now if I follow your argument you say there is evidence but they all say he has lived and belive that he is the Son of God. There is no other evidence that he has not lived or that he has lived and was not the Son of God. Then you conclide that he has not lived because there is no evidence. The logic is that you do not accept the evidence there is.
Any serious scientific historian would not accept the evidence from a single source, especially a source that elsewhere tries to convince us that the universe, life on earth and humanity came about in a mere six days along with many, many other scientific inanities.
Since when are many authors a single source. Only because they all agree that Jesus is the Son of God you consider it a single source. That is untrue. When 10 people saw a person commiting a murder and because they all agree the judge says that there is only one single source and no scientist there is no evidence. There were over 500 people seeing Jesus being resurected. They is no logical and truthful merit in your arguements.
It really is hard to have a serious conversation with anybody who finds the Bible to be anything more than an important work of literature and an important source for more systematic scientific research. What 500 people saw Joshua Ben Joseph being crucified? Where is the corroboration. Matthew corroborates Mark, which corroborates Luke, which corroborates John? Get serious. No serious scientific investigation would credit these as actual separate sources and there is absolutely no corroboration of these events outside of the gospels themselves. But there is just no point in trying to have a serious discussion with the superstitious. You know what superstition is, right: The other guy's religion. You clearly are religious whereas anybody who has religious views contrary to your own must be superstitious. Truly this is such a load of crap I do not know why I bother.
I know what bothers you. Logic and your consience.
Anybody who looks at the Bible as the word of God isn't exactly being logical in the commonly understood meaning of that word. As far as my conscience goes, I personally believe that the Golden Rule is a revolutionary doctrine, but one doesn't have to believe in a supreme being or the efficacy and veracity of the Bible to follow it.
Do you know what I think? You were educated in the doctrines of the Bible? Is that true. Your parents did that or you went to Sunday school? Am I right?
Yes, I had a religious upbringing. The church was really the center of our social life. I have nothing (or more accurately little) against it really. I went to church three times on Sunday, plus Sunday school and the church youth group and also on Wednesay. I believe in the Golden Rule. The biggest gripe I had with the Church as a teenager was their incredibly square attitudes toward sex. Other than that I also had a very scientific secular education, so very early on of course I took issue with all the crap about a supreme being, life after death and all that nonsense, but again I think the Golden Rule is a revolutionary doctrine and we don't need God for that, but if only 10% of the population really practiced it I think we could overthrow all the existing governments in the world.
So I guess you sinned against one these laws regulating sex and then you lost your faith in order to get rid of the guilty conscience. You should repent and come back to God. Now is the time of grace. Don't igone it because when it is too late you will figure out that it is all true but it would be too late for you.
Ok last response since you asked me: And just why is the other guy's religion superstitious nonsense and the crap you believe true? Because scientifically we have to obeservations. Over 500 reasonable human beings have seen Jesus being alive after he was killed. Scientifically there is no natural cause for explaining that. Therefore it must be an act of God. No other religion has that. This is why I think the Gospel of Jesus Christ is true and all other views inculding yours is false.
Unless I adopt Jimmy Carter's perspective (which I don't) that thinking lustful thoughts is sinful, I most certainly did not commit sexual "sins" (whatever that means). I lied a lot, but what teenager doesn't and I certainly didn't feel especially guilty about it. Probably the thing I feel most guilty about is being lazy, but I didn't really develop any strong guilt feelings about that until my late middle age, long after I had become an atheist. I certainly never felt especially guilty about being lazy in my youth. If anything, I was in fact rather proud of being lazy and thought there was virtue in it as most creativity comes out of leisure. It sort of hard to "come back to God" when you have a scientific perspective and think the whole concept is superstitious nonsense. And I don't feel especially guilty about that either. If religion ruled the world we'd still be burning people at the stake. And just why is the other guy's religion superstitious nonsense and the crap you believe true? Answer me that. After all, they also believe that their religion is true and yours is superstitious nonsense. I simply say that in the scientific era, since there is no proof of any of this crap it's all superstitious nonsense. Now, I've really spent way too much time talking to someone who clearly doesn't understand the most rudimentary notions of reason.
wow iteresting
How about you start reading the Bible. There are tons of interesting things.
sher i do already
So what do you say about no interest on debt as a law.
lol lol
What? Lol?
i already do man
So what do you think of the Kingdom of God. Will it rule on earth politically as well?
Well now I know why the Jews killed him. He was a moron.
What is bad about that in particular?
This concept will divide the people and isn't that what you are trying to avoid.
I agree, it unfortunately is deviding people. But it is prophecied that there will be a time when masses will come to Jesus. Some wise men think it will happen in our time.
Christian Harold Camping of Family Radio predicted the end of the world on May 21, 2011. Which just so happened to be my birthday. He is so going to hell for that.
Why does that make you so angry. Jesus predicted that there will be many false prophets. Stick to the true ones.
I'm not angry. It was a sarcastic joke.
Sorry for misinterpreting your response. Do you believe in prophecy by and large?
Not in the sense that you mean. I believe in forecasts. But to believe in religious prophecy would require a belief in God, which doesn't float with my general understanding of human psychology and behavior.
Ok, but what do you say to the fact that many statements about the future of the Jewish books like Isaih came to pass exactly as it was written. The place, time and cirumstances of the brith of Jesus were foretold. How do you integrate that into your understanding?
one person's facts are another person's falsities. If you 'put faith' in afore-mentioned facts, then it would explain how your understanding came to pass. Just as Harold Camping stated a fact, from his vigorous study of the Bible, that the world would end on my birthday.
Take the prohpecy of the coming world empires at the time of Daniel. Everrybody knows that there was The Medo Persian empire followed by Alexandre the Great and then the Roman Empire which was split up also according to the prophecy
Separation of Church and State was put in place for good reason.....
Yes. This way slave owners had a quite life because the law of God forbids robbing humans from other countries and enslaving them. The same with WallSt nowadays. As I quoted the law of God above. If the banks cannot charge interst and debts are forgiven they would look a lot different
jesus would preach up on a soapbox and get shot immediately for being a cult icon that far too many people are allowed to follow at once. the prez would be jelly and kill the bastard.
Secondly: To each his own. FuManchu: Keep your mouth shut, there aren't a million people on here telling you that your beliefs are garbage. The same way we don't punch people on the street in order not to be punched, stop spreading that shit around you scumbag. Maybe we could focus on the real issues if you weren't busy fanning the flames of antagonistic bullshit we don't need to be discussing.
EDIT: Matthias - religion shouldn't be taken much further than inside the home. Bring it up in the world only serves to divide us further as we talk about ideologies like we talk about skin color and race. We have enough divisive issues, we don't need religion (which people are willing to die for, as opposed to skin color or race) sticking its fat nose into the dilemma.
I understand your frustration that people are so diverse. But isn't it reasonable to gather around someone who is purely good and selfless instead follwing people with selfish agendas. Tell me one thing you don't like about Jesus where was acting selfish?
Jesus would tell you not to covet the money, nor put it ahead of your worship of him, but to use it for the poor, follow in His footsteps, and be saved. Jesus did not want you to be poor, but have no other God's before Him.. and that includes those that worship money.
Money is an issue that needs clarification. The viewpoint of most people with respect to money is not correct—including the viewpoint of many Christians who think they are following the Bible’s teachings. In fact, although slavery is not a term we think about much today, there are probably more people in financial slavery today than our Earth has ever seen before. Still, although money is involved, this financial slavery is not connected to the amount of money people have. The relationship we have with our money (compared to our relationship with God) is what is important. You see, God wants to remove anything that gets in the way of a personal relationship with Him. What do you think? Does it look like Jesus is implying that everyone should give away all of their money and live like a homeless person? Many do, but they should not. Let’s look at the following points: The disciples were surprised to hear that rich people would have trouble getting into heaven. The reason is that in their culture, people believed that the rich were being blessed by God, and therefore the most likely to go to heaven. The following verse is one of many that shows us why.
Deuteronomy 8 18 “And you shall remember the LORD your God, for it is He who gives you power to get wealth, that He may establish His covenant which He swore to your fathers, as it is this day.”
Many of the people obviously approved by God in the Old Testament were wealthy. Job, Abraham, Jacob (Israel), and Solomon are good examples.
1 Kings 3 5 At Gibeon the LORD appeared to Solomon in a dream by night; and God said, “Ask! What shall I give you?” 6 And Solomon said: “You have shown great mercy to Your servant* David my father, because he walked before You in truth, in righteousness, and in uprightness of heart with You; You have continued this great kindness for him, and You have given him a son to sit on his throne, as it is this day. 7 Now, O LORD my God, You have made Your servant king instead of my father David, but I am a little child; I do not know how to go out or come in. 8 And Your servant is in the midst of Your people whom You have chosen, a great people, too numerous to be numbered or counted. 9 Therefore give to Your servant an understanding heart to judge Your people, that I may discern between good and evil. For who is able to judge this great people of Yours?” 10 The speech pleased the LORD, that Solomon had asked this thing. 11 Then God said to him: “Because you have asked this thing, and have not asked long life for yourself, nor have asked riches for yourself, nor have asked the life of your enemies, but have asked for yourself understanding to discern justice, 12 behold, I have done according to your words; see, I have given you a wise and understanding heart, so that there has not been anyone like you before you, nor shall any like you arise after you. 13 And I have also given you what you have not asked: both riches and honor, so that there shall not be anyone like you among the kings all your days. 14 So if you walk in My ways, to keep My statutes and My commandments, as your father David walked, then I will lengthen your days.”
Mark 10 : 17-25
17 And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life? 18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.19 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother. 20 And he answered and said unto him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth. 21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.22 And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions.23 And Jesus looked round about, and saith unto his disciples, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God! 24 And the disciples were astonished at his words. But Jesus answereth again, and saith unto them, Children, how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God! 25 It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
You reap what you sow
AMEN.
The Experience of the Preacher
12
¶ I the Preacher was king over Israel in Jerusalem.
13
And I gave my heart to seek and search out by wisdom concerning all things that are done under heaven: this sore travail hath God given to the sons of man to be exercised therewith.
14
I have seen all the works that are done under the sun; and, behold, all is vanity and vexation of spirit.
15
That which is crooked cannot be made straight: and that which is wanting cannot be numbered.
16
¶ I communed with mine own heart, saying, Lo, I am come to great estate, and have gotten more wisdom than all they that have been before me in Jerusalem: yea, my heart had great experience of wisdom and knowledge. 1 Kgs. 4.29-31
17
And I gave my heart to know wisdom, and to know madness and folly: I perceived that this also is vexation of spirit.
18
For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow
True saying. Thanks.
Proverbs 20:13 Love not sleep, lest thou come to poverty; open thine eyes, and thou shalt be satisfied with bread. Proverbs 21:25 The desire of the slothful killeth him; for his hands refuse to labour. Proverbs 22:13 The slothful man saith, There is a lion without, I shall be slain in the streets. Proverbs 22:29 Seest thou a man diligent in his business? he shall stand before kings; he shall not stand before mean men. Proverbs 23:4 Labour not to be rich: cease from thine own wisdom. 5 Wilt thou set thine eyes upon that which is not? for riches certainly make themselves wings; they fly away as an eagle toward heaven.
All Is Vanity
1
The words of the Preacher, the son of David, king in Jerusalem.
2
Vanity of vanities, saith the Preacher, vanity of vanities; all is vanity.
3
What profit hath a man of all his labor which he taketh under the sun?
4
One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the earth abideth for ever.
5
The sun also ariseth, and the sun goeth down, and hasteth to his place where he arose.
6
The wind goeth toward the south, and turneth about unto the north; it whirleth about continually, and the wind returneth again according to his circuits.
7
All the rivers run into the sea; yet the sea is not full: unto the place from whence the rivers come, thither they return again.
8
All things are full of labor; man cannot utter it: the eye is not satisfied with seeing, nor the ear filled with hearing.
9
The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.
10
Is there any thing whereof it may be said, See, this is new? it hath been already of old time, which was before us.
11
There is no remembrance of former things; neither shall there be any remembrance of things that are to come with those that shall come after.
I don't see what you want to say in respect to my post. Please tell me.
Jesus tells us not to rely on riches, as they will not get us into heaven. We cannot buy our way in, but wealth is granted to those who work and follow in the path of God. We tend to think that Jesus commands us to do away with our riches, no... He commands us to follow him, and to do away with ANYTHING that would seperate us from him. Work is all we have thatis not vanity.And if you are too lazy to work, then you shall not inherit the Kingdom of Heaven.
You wrote We tend to think that Jesus commands us to do away with our riches, no Jesus says to his DICIPLES: Sell your possessions and give to the poor. Provide purses for yourselves that will not wear out, a treasure in heaven that will not be exhausted, where no thief comes near and no moth destroys.
Furthermore He said: Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal.
So I cannot agree with your statement.
With those two points in mind, it should be clear that the rich man’s problem was not that he was a bad person, nor that he was rich. His problem was that he loved his money above everything else—and even thought it proved he had a “ticket to heaven.” His question to Jesus may have been to confirm to himself what a great guy he was . . . and he was badly disappointed.
The reason it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God is because most rich people are too much in love with their money to enter the kingdom of God. They are not being kept out, they are keeping themselves out. The point of the story therefore is not that money is bad, but that the rich man’s focus was wrong. To prove that, notice how differently God treated Solomon. God was pleased not only because Solomon did not ask for money, but also because he did not ask for other self-centered things, either. Then God turned around and rewarded Solomon greatly. Solomon’s focus was clearly on what God would want (for all of His people).
Notice that Jesus confirmed that people would be rewarded richly for anything they give up for Him and the gospel—now and in heaven (Mark 10:29,30). God doesn’t want you wealthy or poor, he wants you to follow Him. He will then reward you appropriately. If you have money problems, your relationship with God may not be as perfect as you think it is.
One condition of having riches is that you cannot give them away. Now if you let's say build orphanages you are on paper rich but you work with it. So I agree it depends on what are your riches made of. But Jesus did not only say this to the rich man coming to Him but also to His followers. There was a German Christian who was in big business but he was an outspoken Christian, participated in Chrisitan evangalism and could be seen a role model of a rich Christian who was still serving Christ. Then when there was the financial meltdown and the stock market plumented he commited suicide. It is a very dangerous slope to keep riches and be a Christian.
Again, back to Solomon.. all is Vanity.. It is apparent, that though to the unsuspecting eye, the man Worshiped God first, and followed Jesus, he really put Money before God. This was his downfall. To be trully rich, one must have God before everything else. A simple thing to think about.. told to me years ago by an elderly couple when I asked them how they had stayed married for 50 years.. They told me this and I follow this still today.... 1. Put God first. 2. Spouse next 3. Children comes in third. 4th is your home.. and lastly, is your job. In that order. In a list of priorities, this should be yours. God, Spouse,children,home,job.. When you put anything on the list ahead of anything else there, you will lose it all.
There is going to be a war.. unlike anything we have ever seen. Already, we are taking God out of everything.. school, government, even the churches. It is better to show nudity and gay sex on TV than talk about God, and this is the norm all over the p[lanet.. Many many of the 99%ers are blaming Jews for their own problems, instead of facing what Solomon said. Lazy men die,the hard workers dine with kings.. Take the tale of the ant and the grasshopper.. too many grasshoppers not preparing for the war here. Demanding that government and businesses take care of them. None preparing like the ants for the winter.. what happens when the plagues begin, and all food is lost? The war will happen, and it will be the rich vs. the poor, the athiests against the devout. It is almost a crime in America to be a Christian.. and most anymore would want to see Jews and Christians murdered and the Bibles burned just to be rid of us once and for all.The end times are very very close at hand.. There is almost nothing left but Matthew 24:14 " And this Gospel of the Kingdom, shall be preached unto all the world, as a witness to this testimony, and then the END shall come." Everything else has already come to pass.
Thanks for your insight. What do you think God will do with the situation? What will happen in the future?
Use your faith to support your decisions, not to try to sell us on your point of view. Religion should be peripheral to this discussion.
You say that. God says the opposite. He has created the world. Doesn't has a right to have a say in here?
Proverbs 12:11 He that tilleth his land shall be satisfied with bread: but he that followeth vain persons is void of understanding. Proverbs 12:24 The hand of the diligent shall bear rule: but the slothful shall be under tribute. Proverbs 13:4 The soul of the sluggard desireth, and hath nothing: but the soul of the diligent shall be made fat. Proverbs 14:23 In all labour there is profit: but the talk of the lips tendeth only to penury. Proverbs 19:15 Slothfulness casteth into a deep sleep; and an idle soul shall suffer hunger. Proverbs 16:26 He that laboureth laboureth for himself; for his mouth craveth it of him.
Proverbs 10:4 He becometh poor that dealeth with a slack hand: but the hand of the diligent maketh rich. 5 He that gathereth in summer is a wise son: but he that sleepeth in harvest is a son that causeth shame.
Proverbs 6:6 Go to the ant, thou sluggard; consider her ways, and be wise: 7 Which having no guide, overseer, or ruler, 8 Provideth her meat in the summer, and gathereth her food in the harvest. 9 How long wilt thou sleep, O sluggard? when wilt thou arise out of thy sleep? 10 Yet a little sleep, a little slumber, a little folding of the hands to sleep: 11 So shall thy poverty come as one that travelleth, and thy want as an armed man.
The unemployment rate of black Amercians is 16.1%. Now please explain how can they all find a job?
Sometimes, you have to work for yourself to survive. Many of the unemployment figures you see, include self employed people as well. The best philosophy is: Why rely on someone else to give it to you, when you can earn it for yourself? If you continue to work for others, and never try for yourself, or are stuck thinking that you have to rely on others, than you condemn yourself to poverty. A rich man, is not always one with a lot of money, but one that is rich in Spirit and with God. When you devote your life to God, He shall Provide. Put away things others tell you, and do something for yourself.
Look I am blessed with a job. But due to the rule of money huge companies have destroyed the mom and pap stores and now it is almost impossible to let's say open a small grocery store. If giants eat up the small then there is hardly no room to start a small business. Do you agree?
YOu compare the 3% of business out there, with the majority of small businesses. Should I close down my computer repair business, because Microsoft can fix it instead, or should I stop building small airplanes because Boeing moved in at the local airport? Big businesses like Walmart found a way to make a lot of money selling everything cheaper than the local competitors, because a. people saw the value in saving money, the local competitors did not find a way to reduce costs, and pass that on to thier customers. If you could buy directly from the manufacturer, and not need to deal with the middle men, than you too could then resale that product for above cost, and make a profit, many many small mom and pop places were buying from distributors instead of manufacturers, and they got defeated because they did not look for better prices. Whether or not a business succeeds or fails, does not mean that it was defeated by a larger entity like Walmart.. IT means, the owners of that business, did not.. Diversify thier product. Offer competitive prices, offer resonable discounts. LAcked a good business model... lacked good ownership/managment. You rationalize that all small businesses are in jeapordy because of of hte big ones.. I disagree.. all businesses are in jeapordy if they do not foolow trends, and do everything they can to generate revenue.
When you go to Walmart then a lot of the stuff is from China. There are some items I could not find anything made but China. So first of all how come the capitalistic Walmart is best partner with communists. Then of course we know that in China labor is cheap. So is it right to exploit labor?
Are we talking about exploiting labor in the US or in China? Yes labor is cheap in China.. you know why? Because the Socialist government provides everything to them. The money you spend on items from China, does not go to it's people, but to its government. The government then redistributes the money equally to its citizens, regarless if they worked. The issues in China is, everyone must work or be killed. It is not Americans who exploit the labor, but the Government of Socialist China. Yes there are products on the shelves of Walmart that are made only in China. So as a consumer, you have the choice on who to buy from. You can choose to buy an item made in China, or you can buy American made. What is sad, is that American workers demand so much, that many items are priced too high to be competitive on the market, simply because of the overhead cost the businesses need to charge to maintain the workers. This is how China oout Let me give you a simple example.. a chair.. made in China.. practically slave labor for the goverment, overhead cost/.. 10 dollars.. shipping cost along with 10,000 other chairs.. 500.. total cost for the chair with a store mark up for profit.. $80 Same chair, made in the US.. Designer wants 25 bucks an hour, wood worker wants 15 an hour, shipping company wants 500 per every 1000 pounds, advertising wants 2000 per month to run ads, government wants 30% tax and the manufacturer, and retailer want to make a profit, so.. 400 per chair sound about right? This is not exploiting, it is about how to produce a product that is affordable and eay to make a profit on. I guarantee, if you build a business that is 100 % American made, you will be out of business in a year or less, because who would want to pay 100% - %500 more for an item, they could buy elsewhere?
Ok, lets go back to the biblical economy of Israel. With laws I mentioned above and the fact that God started out the state with equal opportunities for everybody (lets exclude the tribe of Levi whoes job was serving God). So everybody had land and the land could not be taken away from the family for more than 50 years. Then you could not charge interest. Isn't this the perfect economy. Every family is self employed and cannot be oppressed.
I dont know why its not letting me reply under your post there..
The perfect economy, one in which everyone, regardless of status is equal, cannot happen on this planet without Godly intervention. Mankind is to self centered and evil. No government, or economic system out there, will ever succeed without God's help and interference. What God set up for the Israelis, does not last, when corruption taints every deed mankind endeavors to do. No.. there will be a Millennial Kingdom, under Jesus as ultimate King, and then we shall see what true economics are like.
Need knowledge, self-control, and RESOURCES to have freedom and if 1% owns all the resources the rest can not be vary free. Life is all about relationships and getting them right. Put your faith in truth which is about knowing relationships in your life. Put your hope in freedom which is about choosing relationships in your life. Put your trust in love which is about caring relationships in your life. Truth, freedom, love are good. Deceit, slavery, hate are bad. Choosing good is moral. Choosing bad is evil. Of these values freedom is the easiest to loose because you need resources to have it, but if you have to many resources they end up owning you and when resources are wasted it means less freedom for someone somewhere.
If you share these values spread the WORD, I took years getting this right and you may say that it should have been easy but like the knowledge that the earth goes around the sun if you did not know it that knowledge would be hard to get, we have to teach knowledge or the knowledge dies with us. Have faith, hope, trust in truth, freedom, love David McDonell of Ironwood MI debdaveandpets@gmail.com
A bad tree cannot bear good fruit. What human can say that he has cleansed his heart and he is free from sin. Therefore we need outside help from an eternally good source which God who send Jesus Christ to fix it.
I am with you, to me God is truth, freedom, love
Thanks a lot. It is great to meet Christians who are standing up for the name of God.
The laws of the universe allow for love it did not have to be that way, love proves God. He may the laws that way.
What do you mean with the law of universe allow for love it did not have to be that way?
the laws could have not allow freedom or love made the universe like one big movie and we are just filling the parts in it, but instead God gave us freedom to love or hate, but turning against God they choose hate, letting God in your life you choose truth, freedom, love which God is.
Thanks. What do you think God will do with the system we have where the rule over the rich and the cause of the poor is neglected
My church is raising money for the movement
That is interesting. What church is it?
http://youtu.be/JTNvKSrdm_s
This short video answers the question.
I replied that question before so I copied and paste it now: I watched the video and I must say that it redefines socialism, because according to wikipedia it is: Socialism is an economic system in which the means of production are either state owned or commonly owned and controlled cooperatively; According to this common definition Joseph, the son of Judah, was the first one recorded in the Bible to set up a pure form of socialism because in the end the means of production was controlled by the state. The law of Moses on the contrary was the opposite: All property was in the hands of private people. BUT much more evenly distributed than it is now. The laws I have cited protect the people from the situation we have now
Matthew 25:14-30 this will tell you EXACTLY what he thought.
I do not understand what you mean. Is it, that the rich will be rewarded?
It is not what "I" mean. Read into it what you want, but this si what Jesus said. If you work for someone do what is best for your employer.
He used this parable for the work in the Kingdom.
separation of church and state
This is the base for abuse because God is the only that cannot be bought with money that is not a respector of persons. The true God is good and righteous and has a King for us Jesus Christ. As long as He is rejected the abuse of power WILL NOT END:
i dont follow jesus but i still want good, i think people just need to start caring more about this world and the people in it.
But they don't that's why we need Jesus.
no they just need to quit being selfish greedy bastards, but we are all entitled to our own opinion on it, i dont care what religion one believes, i care only for the action one takes.
The actions are a result of their heart and providence.
I respect your right to look to spiritual texts for guidance. You're right, Jesus did follow a simple and ultimately giving life according to the bible and other religious texts. I myself am agnostic- but I tend to appreciate Buddhist ideals for many different occasions in my life. Maybe you should show your dedication to Christianity by trying to encourage the love and respect that is often negated by power, money and greed today.
What do think of the witnesses that testified that Jesus has resurrected. This makes completely different from all other religions.
No, not really. Ancient Egyptians had a similar Resurrection story. Often the human 'spirit' is thought of as enduring even after death- whether you believe that literally or figuratively.
Please tell me where I can read that and who were the witnesses and what happend to them. Are they relyable. Have they proven with giving their life for it that they truely have seen that. Anything else is hearsaying.
No one we know was alive during the times of Jesus or ancient Egypt. It's not a fault that resurrection is a common belief for different religions and cultures- it's interesting and usually can be traced to thousands of years ago. Hearsay is when you say something you heard some one else say without a signed statement or their presence in a court of law.
There a witness acounts of the resurrection. There is a consistent history of the development of the Kingdom of God. It has come to pass exactly as it was prophecied. There a hundreds of prophecies that came true. And in the end all will have been fullfilled. I was convinced of the truth of the Bible when I have read it from beginning to end. Have you and have you read these other things you talk about.
Right, just because you read something doesn't make it true. That, again, my opinion and my observation of history.
I was raised Roman Catholic, I've read the bible a while ago. I'm saying it goes against logic to say that if something is true some of the time, it must be true ALL of the time.
It is overwhelming sonsistency of the writings and the relevance for world affairs and individual affairs. Just take the book of wisdom. It is simply true when you think about it. As I said hundreds of prophecies had been fullfilled as we can verify in now. Have you read the whole Bible and checked it out according to history?
I agree somewhat. But allowing religion to be so pervasive in politics is what the founders were hoping to avoid.
I've said for some time that God does not WANT to be in Washington, DC. And I don't think He does. There's way too much power given to politicians because they "believe". You won't stop corruption by injecting religion.
If there is to be a true God-driven government, it will probably be a communist anarchy, which is to say, no government at all really. Simple truth. Not advocating either ideologies, just saying. Humanity is not ready for either. Until our species moves beyond a need for power, it will always pervade our society.
Please read Psalm 2 and you will clealy see that it is God's will to be obeyed in Washington.
Psalm 2 speaks of kings. There are very few kings today. We live in a nation where (in theory) we are responsible for what we do. It is God's will that man obey His laws. Government is not necessary for that. Here is another verse for you. Hebrews 13:17 The goal isn't to change the government in any way other than the means allowed by that same government to change it.
Your statement is not true. Next to Kings the rulers are mentioned as well. The Hebrew word for rulers is: ) (Qal) to be weighty, be judicious, be commanding And judges are also mentioned. So it is not true. As of Herbews 13 I have to say that it is completly within the constitution of the USA to elect whom you choose and to change the constitution by the assigned procedure.
So turn America into a Theocracy and it will be incorruptible? Is that what you're suggesting?
Yes if it is through the Gospel, because it will change the heart as well. We do not need a stimulus of money. We need a stimulus of love. A change of hearts and minds which can God provide and does when the Gospel is accepted. If you are able to change some of the rules you have not made one heart more loving and the abuse will start all over again.
sigh A Christian idealist. I'll pray for you. God cannot change the hearts and minds of man. He can only inspire man. Man should be governed by God. SHOULD. But He, in His infinite wisdom has left it to us to govern ourselves. That's why I day it's up the the individual.
Do you know about the prophecies in Isaiah and John where God will set up righteous rulers who will rule in righteousness with Christ's spirit. I am an idealist but I am inspired by the Word of God.
wow 1000 great job :]
Let's hope people will see that Jesus is alive, ready to rule, and the one that cannot be bought with money. He will bring justice to the poor.
emm?? uuhh jaa
If we could see with His Eyes then we would understand the way God understands, for his eyes see through the darkness right down to our needs, if we could only see through His eyes. That is such a powerful song. Thank you for reminding us about his view and Shouting it from the housetop!
You are welcome. May the Lord bless you and make you see through His eyes.
well it so happens to be that we can't just speculate.
i think it is great!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Thanks for the support.
youre wellcome
do you think of ows
Well it is for real. The misdeeds of WallSt are for real. It is happening and so plays a part in God's providence. What do think it is.
imm sick about those rich bankers how are gettin g pummt with money
God will make an end to all injustice.
cool
What are you looking for the most what God wants to do?
This is the modern day version of Jesus' rampage i.e. flipping the tables of the "money changers".
Matthew 21:12-13
12 And Jesus entered the temple and drove out all those who were buying and selling in the temple, and overturned the tables of the money changers and the seats of those who were selling doves.
But the reason for my posting here is that you look at the reason why He did it. He said that the tempel is supposed to be a house of prayer for all nations. It is God who brings justice. We need to seek Him and pray to Him to help us
youre reply link isn't working.you obviously can't think logicly.if you let 'god' rule you have to have somebody representing him or talking to him or whatever so this person or group would obviously use this and it could easily become Diktatorship which probably also happened in Isreal since they have a president now
You are right that it can be abused and it is abused and it was abused. So we do not new hypocricy. Therefore the Gospel comes with help. We need a stimulus of love as well. So the cold hearted people will gain love and love obeys God.
so you admit it won't work
If it is up to men it will not work. That is why I said we must make Jesus King. Jesus is the missing link in the puzzle. He provides for our lack.
so what are supposed to do with jesus
Come to Him, learn from Him, believe in Him, be transformed by Him, get eternal life from Him. God has made Him King of Kings. Supreme ruler of the world. Therefore we should also acknowledge as King over all governments including ours. David was annoited King over Israel long before they acknoledged Him.
well david made bad choices
Right. It is Jesus who is ruling forever. This is just great. The perfect man, full of wisdom, grace and love.
I strongly believe in keeping religion separate from government, but people should be free to point out religious teachings here. This movement should include all of the 99% and whatever motivates us to be here on behalf of our future economic security. That said - in fairness to all religions, if we studied them I'm certain we'd find very similar teachings about debt and interest. For example, there are Muslims in my state who will not take out any interest bearing loans due to their faith.
If God is the only one good. Then He is the only one able to come up with a just system. He is also the only one who then cannot be rigged. History of men have done exactly that. Keep God out and favor the rich. And it does not matter whether they officially were serving God. The fact that they did not keep God's law proofs they have left Him out. Is there any man who can say: I have cleanded my heart I am free of sin. Let him rule if it is true, but if not let God rule.
your reply button doesn't exist.
SOmeone else wrote the same thing. I hope it won't happen again. Ok, you can rely now, hopefully.
i don't agree.The people should be able to rule
So you are so annoyed. The people rule but you don't see the correlation.
what do you mean?
You say that the people should rule. Then the people have created systems the people are fed up with because it only works well for some. This has gone on for thousands of years. Now your name is soannoyed. So assume that you are also annoyed by the status quo that only a few benefit and the cause of the poor is forgotten. So you are annoyed by the system (which man have made) then I say let God rule and then you reply. No the people should rule.
So whysn't isreal letting god rule .Let me guess it didn't work
In Israel God's law did work but only for a while. The laws were written in stone.And actually there was also an opposite effect. Although the law is good it entice you to break it. Have you ever experienced that?
so how are we supposed to let god rule the country ? seriously
Obey Him. He has the wisdom and the laws layed down and it is up to us to put them into practise.
and whats ur interpretation of 'obey him'?
If it is written forgive their debt you forgive. The same way you obey the laws of modern society. There is one difference. Moden societies have over 100.000 rules and laws and make lawers rich because partly they are difficult to understand. The law of God does not have lawers language but it is easy to read.
so no democracy?
If you look into the system of Israel that lived by the law of God there was no legislative body, no government just judges who decided quarrels. Inst't that great?
take away our rights, no way .we broke away from england to be free.Our country is based on freedom.Occupy Wall street is about us getting our rights back not finding ways to get less.
You certainly agree that there can only be a legitimate right if it is not hurting others? So God has a perfect system that keeps people from harm from others. So the rights of the USA are valid in a perfect system only if they are fit into this perfect system of justice.
I've been staying at the occupy wall street movement. Seeing it spread globally in this way has worried me. I've put all the pieces together. This movement will grow till it's so big and the message of solidarity and we being the 99% will grow so big the powers that be will have to answer the people. The answer will be one world government. It is inevitable. Please people understand this was all started for that purpose. Everything that is happening now was predicted in the book of revelations. Not even being a Jesus freak. Just read it and you will know. Everything happening was fore told. Please people know that there is nothing we can do to stop it. I just hope we the people dont suffer. But that is also inevitable.
I can your point. But how about the teaching of Jonath Edwards that does not necesarily contridct you view but He thought that the millenium will start at our time. Preceding the millenium will be downfall of the Harlot Babylon. The World Trade Center fell and maybe it was the start of this downfall. After that their will be a fight against Jesus and His army BUT Jesus (Now Incontinue the thought) will overcome them by the sword coming out of His mouth, which is the Word of God and then all the world will turn to Christ through faith and the Kingdom of God will be the biggest brush (parable of the mustard seed) for a thousand years.
He says nothing because he cannot speak at this time...
But YOU are a lot of things to say...
It admit that it can seem strange that God uses everyday little people who are for sure not perfect like me to preach. But this is what the Bible says-
I just want to say "Speakin in the name of... is lying"
Well then you must proof it. If I lie you can prove it, right? I am not perfect at all and I can image myself that there might be something that I wrote which is wrong. So please prove it and I will apologize.
It's because you speaking instead of someone, you are not this people.
How many people die "in the name of God", but were killed only by humans?
Is the US President lying when He signs a treaty in the name of the US?
It would be nice if we could trade fast without money or debt. In fact someone needs to come up with a system that could do that.
But what do you think of the system I described above: No interest. RElease of debt every 7 years and redistribution of basic weallth every 50 years. Please think it through I think it is best possible.
I like the part about having no interest, but I'm not sure about how the redistribution thing will go. It's human nature to hold on to their social status. We need a system that takes advantage of human nature, not something that goes despite it.
I noticed that people usually value social approval above all - in tribal societies, the rulers are usually very giving and sends gifts like crazy, since they will be seen as generous if they do so. Their currency is social approval. In fact, a few recent studies show that social approval is the core of human society:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/08/110812213032.htm?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+sciencedaily+%28ScienceDaily%3A+Latest+Science+News%29
For proof that rejection, exclusion, and acceptance are central to our lives, look no farther than the living room, says Nathan Dewall, a psychologist at the University of Kentucky. "If you turn on the television set, and watch any reality TV program, most of them are about rejection and acceptance," he says. The reason, DeWall says, is that acceptance -- in romantic relationships, from friends, even from strangers -- is absolutely fundamental to humans.
I think that we should be able to take advantage of this. For example, I noticed on reddit that people will do anything for upvotes (it's a point system indicating popularity, more or less), even though the upvotes won't do anything in real life. Maybe build a website like reddit, but for entrepreneurs/businesses, and get the upvote system as currency? Oh! If the community is of consumers and businessmen/industries, then maybe the businessmen/industries will simply supply each other goods based on networking or something? And on a large scale, people seem to want good things (see: few spams on Wikipedia), so maybe it'll work?
. . . I just pulled that idea out of my ass, but . . . somehow I've convinced myself, hmm.
I think that for a society to work you need love, equal love. Love your neighbot as yourself. How to create love. One import way is to forgive, to overlook transgressions. Jesus started to forgive. This I believe is the stimulus we need. We need the Gospel. I know I ask for much. But I do not see another solution.I must tell I do not see success in your solution.
Can you be more specific about why you think my solution is faulty? We can work on a solution together. :)
Let me start out to describe the perfect system and by doing so I will show the difference to you suggestion. The perfect system of community is that every action is motivated by love, at least equal love. I work and use my resources as much for my benefit as for the others. If it gives me an advantage I would not want to do it. Approval I think can be split in two parts. 1.) I want to be loved, which is good. 2.) I want to be better than others. I envy their supiriior status. Salomo puts it this way: Then I saw that all toil and all skill in work come from a man’s envy of his neighbor. This also is vanity and a striving after wind What do you think about this argument?
Well, I think that envy could be used to society's advantage - I remember my professor talking about a case study where a bunch of Native American tribes competed with each other to give each other the most food, since the leaders were close to the people they were ruling so they needed their follower's approval of their rule, and being more generous meant having more followers. I'm trying to dig that up from my Anthropology textbook, but no luck so far . . .
Aside from that example, I have noticed that people do all sorts of things online for free - when I was younger, I used to be crazy about Harry Potter, and the community would organize a bunch of things with little to no money. You see fanfiction and fanart that took a lot of effort to draw/write, that the authors/artists offered on the Internet for free. You also see people editing Wikipedia for free, and on most pages you don't see spam or anything of the sort - in fact Nature wrote that Wikipedia is fairly on par with Encyclopedia Brittanica http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v438/n7070/full/438900a.html.
Compare that with the financial world, where the CEOs don't need social approval from us, the community, since they're so isolated from us - we don't communicate at all. The people they communicate with expect their company's stock to keep growing forever, or keep increasing your profits forever, or some such nonsense - partly because, if you don't believe in that philosophy, then you can't access more resources to expand your business, I guess (since, if your stock price / profits / whatever doesn't keep rising then it's more difficult for the business to get more loans, since they'll view that your business isn't worthy of investment, even if that's not true).
It seems to me that, what matters in the end is social approval from your immediate peers - and in the banking world, you need bigger and bigger profits - and there are some great business ideas out there that got burned by this expectation (ex. http://www.odemagazine.com/doc/59/a-sustainable-alternative-to-the-financial-meltdown/all). And with Google starting to shut down a lot of their free services, I think that they're starting to feel this pressure, too.
Well, let those entrepreneurs network. Get a bunch of small business people together in a forum, write down their business ideas, and let the general public (including other business people) upvote/downvote their ideas, and allow people to comment on the quality of the project, and allow a informative/uninformative system on the comments, too, so that the more informative comments get to the top - so the projects with the most upvotes will automatically have public support, or even support from other businesses, and people can just start the business. It will be reddit for real life entrepreneurship!
Who says that you need to get a debt to get more resources? Just get together in a community - and because of the Internet, the community could be HUGE - and start trading. Apparently, the Harry Potter fandom and Wikipedia trade information and entertainment for social approval (for the most part) - why couldn't you trade actual goods for social approval?
I think you came up with a very good insight: It seems to me that, what matters in the end is social approval from your immediate peers
But this is the problem: Only your peers. And the poor and needy are left out. This is how the world runs. Salomo says: The poor are despised even by their neighbors, while the rich have many "friends." Another thought: Let's compare it to sports: Envy is like a performance enhancing drug: It gives short or medium term advantages, it kind of forces others to do it to but in the end you have a sick organism. This is what has happened. The cure is love and forgiveness.
When U know Jesus its not about religion. Those that play the religious card show they know not themselves, their maker or the true word of Jesus Christ.
Please help me understand. Now in respect to this post do you say that it is knowing Jesus or religion. And if religion please tell me what is wrong.
Hahah I guess freedom of speech doesn't count if it's religious. People here kill me
I think it is not so bad. What makes me sad, is that the Word of God seems not be gain room. But maybe I am ust impatient
Yes theocracy would work out just great. Have you considered moving to Saudi Arabia?
Also, I think Jesus would have approved of Communism. Remember "It is easier for a camel to travel through the eye of a needle then a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven"?
How about Acts 2:44 of the Bible that states "All the believers were together and had everything in common." That sounds an awful lot like communism to me!
First of all. Saudia Arabia are palls with the Capitalists. Same problem over there. 1% rule over 99%. Second of all I live in Germany and about 20 years ago the 99% of communist East Germany went on the street and got free because 1% ruled over the 99%. NO matter what system you have riches corrupt the rulers. You need someone who has not a sinful heart like man. Jesus Christ AND you need helo from outside to change the hearts of man. The Gospel provides that.
“A house divided against itself cannot stand.”(Mark 3:25) This is a statement that has rung true throughout the ages. Lincoln used it 3 years before the beginning of the Civil War, and wasn’t he dead on the mark? Today, America is a house divided against itself, and the truth of the maxim, “a house divided against itself cannot stand,” again faces the test of validity.
A very good point. I search in Scripture how God will bring down the mystery power of Revelation which I think comrises the love of money and the rule of the rich as well, so there are prophecies where it is said that one man against another.
I too believe in, The End of Days. Here scientists and theologians agree. In religion it is called Revelation. In science it is, "The Big Bang." Each a premonition of our own annihilation.
No it is not the Revelation I am talking about. Scientiest can not know the works of God. It must come through revelation. Yes there are false prophets out there but also true ones. By there fruit you will know them. A bad tree bears bad fruit. BUt a good one good fruit
Although I consider myself a spiritual person, I do not subscribe to any organized religion. I believe that Jesus was a human being through who was expressed a profound transformation that was taking place in humanity- the loss of unequivocal unity brought on by the emergence of ego-consciousness as the determining factor in human existence. Monotheism seeks to reestablish the unequivocal unity of the human spirit split asunder by self-aggrandizement and greed. The. "supernatural," qualities attributed to Jesus I reject as a vestige of an epoch when mythology had yet to be decoded of its psychological reality.
Well after we die we will face the judge of all men Jesus Christ and then you will have full assurance.
The concept of money has been around for thousands of years, but only now within the last thirty years or so have things become corrupted by naked corporate greed. Greed can be defined as the reprehensible aquisitiveness; the insatiable desire for wealth (personified as one of the seven deadly sins) especially material wealth it has come to the point that it has essentially destroyed not only the foundations of a civilised society but is in the process of destroying the social fabric of civilisation as we know it. The trouble is the politicians have not got a clue as to what to do about this, they either don't understand or don't want to understand the root causes of the crisis we are in. All the bail outs and Quantitative easing will not solve the root problems as this is at it's heart a moral crisis rather than a financial one. We need to become less, much less materialistic, learn to become content and yes , much less greedy, i say much less because one will never be able to do away with greedy people as that is their moral compass. But they should be made to understand that their grasping ways will not be tolerated any more and that from now on they will find it a damned sight harder to get more than their fair share. It also means a more fairer distribution of wealth from the haves to the have nots, by giving then the skills and tools to improve their lot in life as well as the support they need while doing it. Capitalism is based on greed, let us not forget this, and greed needs to challenged wherever it raises its ugly head i for one do not have all the answers,but the system must change to something more humane and less destructive, If we can eradicate poverty then a lot of other things will go with it too, hopelessness,despair, disease, hunger to name but a few. The protest must go global i think if those in power are going to finally get the message and were necessary the use of civil disobedience or passive resistance may needed to be employed. I understand the anger, but there are more than one way to push for change than just the use of force, besides that is what those with vested interest would want, to brand us as criminals or terrorists so they can justify themselves to themselves and other like minded people. This will not happen overnight but will take some time, but for the sake of future generations we must
Thanks for your reply. When I tried to figure out the Word of God I came to a mystery that is talked about at the very end. In Revelation chapter 17,18,19. The myserty power controls the governments and make the business people rich. It has always beeen around. Look in history and you can see the corruption gong on voery the recorded history. Because of this mystery the autorites forget the cause of the poor and get rich themselves. Is it the love money. Gathering riches instead of relying on God. Anyway the prophecy is that God will remember her sins and take her out. Salomo the wisest of all statemen and professors said. The rich rule over the poor. But the Gospel is geood news of the Kingdom of God. We need a change in government. Jesus Christ, the only loving and faithful enough to make sure laws are not rigged ro benefit the wealthy and oppress the poor.
Next evening, drive into the poorest neighborhood in your area and toss out a handful of coins. Charities are too complex, and there is something unfulfilling about handing money to someone who asks for it. In my opinon, it is better to give without being asked. Also, the most likely reciepiant will be a poor child.
I don't quite understand what you want to say. Please explain.
I'm just saying to drive to a poor neighborhood at night and toss out a handful of change onto the sidewalk. Someone will find it the next morning and be happy. So, find the poorest neighborhood. Because that's where the people need it most
It would be great if people gave out of the goodness of their heart, but today most people are worried about their own future- charity begins at home. On the other hand, I worked for many years as a fundraiser for a non-profit organization (and yes, I was paid for it). I truly believed in the good work of the organization and worked really hard on their behalf. I know from experience that asking for money for others in need is an agonizing and thankless job.
Do you know that the laws of God did set up a very good system of helping the poor. I wish the governments would start to submit to Christ and learn from the wise laws. So in the system of God the poor don't get without thier work. If you had a field to harvest your were supposed to leave stuff behind and don't harvest everything, so the poor can go out and harvest the rest. Of course the sick and unable to do that were supported as well through the law. What do you think of that?
A very good and pure system for it's time. However, with the evolution of technology one man can do the work of many. In the inevitable future, very few persons will have to work. Thanks to technology. We will be free to do as we please. Learn from the past, but look to the future.
But don't you agree that men best happiness he can achieve on this earth that has its toils is when he works and enoys the food as Salomon says. I mean that we are create to create. We are made to be productive. Another thought crossed my mind yesterday when I thought about the Sabath system. IN the sevens year the fields remain idle. But in the 6th you get double the harvest. Are we right now in the time were we produce double as much for future times?
People find satisfaction in toils that they choose. It happens too often that people work a job that they don't like. It becomes a obstacle to the things they would rather be doing. It begins to feel more like a form of slavery. Someday robotics and artificial intelligence will free us from these tasks that make us wage-slaves. We will be free to create the arts and play with our hobbies without worry of financial ruin.
I think it is economical system we have right now that works fine for the rich but not for the common worker. Jobs are offered that make the rich richer but not that each one can do what he is gifted to do and is self employed. God's system has provided for a families to be independet. Not like now where the rich have eaten up the mom and pop stores and force the people to work for let's say WallMart. But we the 99% or not without responsibilty because we just bought what was cheaper and not where people could have their own business. What do you think?
Jesus threw out the money changers (JEWS). We should be doing the same. Lehman brothers, Schwatz, Goldman, Oppenhiemer, etc. International Jewry is the problem!
But are you aware that He threw them out the temple and said it is supposed the be a house of prayrt for nations. Do you have the same intention?
if jesus were here he would open up a vineyard in the middle of the desert cuz he doesnt need grapes n shit hed just take some tap water and poof that shit into straight profit. hed be the ultimate businessman.
Although you don't mean it seariously you are in the fact that Jesus is also the businessman in the sense that He provides for the food and clothes for all man but people don't dirtubute them according to His law. But He will even change that.
The real Jesus would say..."The people united will never be defeated".
Look at the history. In Czech Republic the people were united and protested but they were overrun by russion tanks. In East Germany the people were united but toppled the system. The domonstration leading to the downfall of the comunist system started at a church always on Monday. Why this church? Why on monday? Because it this very church some people had faith in the Almighty God and prayed for this to happen.
Fusk Jesus
Alleric
WHat did He do to you and what did WallSt to you? Do throw away your life line.
PLEASE PEOPLE lets not debate over this message. unity is required, especially for oct 15th.
religion is disruptive i agree. NOT GOD. there is hope and good in him therefore most cannot just refrain from mentioning him. Everyone has the right to say what they think, and God is Good. therefore i think the good is acceptable as long as its not imposing beleifs on anyone else.
Yes, God is good. But laws well be set anyways. However it seems to me that you don't want God to do that. Why not?
He would say let me build you a fence to stand behind...he was a carpenter. He would be protesting with the rest of us poor folk. As far as his religious views, no one cares.
Don't you know that He has all athority in the world?
God Bless you all! It's Time for a Million People March on Washington, D.C. to Reform Wall Street--Time to take back our Country from their Influence over OUR lawmakers! Here's how easily we do it, a focused good start: Take away their powers once again.
"We are here Congress because we want to REINSTATE the Glass-Steagall Act of 1933 http://www.investopedia.com/articles/03/071603.asp#axzz1aPEc3wX which saved our country from the Great Depression by preventing banks and insurance companies from merging and becoming large brokerage firms; instead of Banks and Insurance companies--can't we learn a history lesson here Congress? Btw, why did most of you vote for its repeal in 1999? http://www.counterpunch.org/2008/09/19/shattering-the-glass-steagall-act/
And also we want you to CHANGE the Commodities Future Modernization Act of 2000 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodity_Futures_Modernization_Act_of_2000 BACK to where it was before 2000, which since has deregulated energy markets and has allowed such scams as The Enron Loophole; whereas in the early 2000's Enron Corp. was charging 400 bucks plus for a kilowatt hour...They all when to jail for this. But, the Enron loophole is still not CLOSED, for example, allowing speculators to resell barrels of oil over and over again before it reaches the gas station owner. It's basically, legal gambling at our expense. What were those lawmakers thinking then? What are you thinking now? Either do the right thing, or you're part of 1%."
Reasons:
Why are oil prices high? The Enron Loophole
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zbdtTGYQBMU&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PNp0y0SjOkY&feature=related
Rolling Stones Reporter: Truth about Goldman Sachs--how they have cornered the markets--basically, The Enron Loophole and the Repeal of Glass-Steagall Act in 1999. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=waL5UxScgUw
As I said in my post we need Christ to be recognized for what He is: King of Kings. Hand over government to Him.
yes! that's part of my prays
You make me very happy because you think so too. Whenever you are in Germany come visit me.
right on! I'm 50% Germany
For a while I thought I am pretty much alone with my hope in our Lord. But lately friends like you show up.
life is short, but enterity is forever! Peace
Peace to you too. Are you right in New York?
Please read Luke 19. I have no more to tell you!
I appreciate your thought on this. What do you want to say with that.
He threw the money changers out of the Temple and over turned their tables while doing it!
Let's not forget the other things He said and did. Do you agree?
Agreed. He was the Prince of Peace.
I am so happy that God has prophesied that there will come a time when the nations will learn from the Prince of Peace. Maybe we will see it.
Sorry to say, I'm not holding my breath. :(
Maybe later :)
It is because the evil forces or shall I say in a religious point of view, Satan and his minions has infiltrated all positions of power in the government, corporation, media and religion. I am not a religious person but I am a very Godly and spiritual person. Religion has also been infiltrated by Satan that is why it cannot be ensured to be pure. Most people has worshipped religion more than God, they have replaced God with their religion. They even obey whatever their religion taught rather than the simple teaching of Love that God and Christ has taught.
I dont need religion to know God but as for God, God and the angelic beings are very eager to help us out of these mess, we just have to ask. To help us, they wont do that out of respect for our free will unless we ask.
Just ask for help that is so simple.
So you agree on the commandments I wrote. No interest, debt release every 7 years and redistribution of basic resources every 50 years?
Of course that sounds good but it should be enforced into law. The problem is that it is not possible if the ones who are seated in the government are the crooks themselves, the evil ones. We the people should scrutinize Congress because they are the law makers. It is more important to elect your Congressman with great care to make sure that they are really pro-people and not pro-greed. Are they selfish or self-less? DO not based solely on accomplishments but instead look at the character of the person. You see Obama can do nothing much without Congress. I suspect a lot of Congressmen are in the payrolls of the rich corporate crooks to promote and protect their interests.
But how many voters love riches as well. We live in a democracy and the government is elected. Therefore I say we need a stimulus of wisdom and love and love of God, to change the society as well.
We can ask the assistance of the angelic beings. They are meant to help us we just need to ask.
there is a prophecy that an angel will come down from heaven wir "great authority, and the earth was illuminated by his splendor. 2 With a mighty voice he shouted: “‘Fallen! Fallen is Babylon the Great!’" I can imagine that this is a human messanger. But you are right angels help the believers.
If Jesus were alive today, he would be serving time in jail for trespassing and loitering... due to his homeless status. And the people on Wall Street would have labeled him as a Communist/Socialist and his Federal status would be something like... conspiratorial... or even terrorist.
I think that you are right that He would be labeled will kinds of things. What do you think about His commandments. No interst, debt release every seven years and redistribution of basic resources every 50 years?
Interests is a form of usury. It is really evil but it was later tolerated and legalized in the same way abortion is evil but later one legalized.
You might want to watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ArfPytAoeZ0
Why do you think it is no demand of OWS?
what do you mean?
WHat I mean is why does not OccupAllSt make it a demand that all interest on debt is by law forbidden. Howver the poor rely on loans so I guess it must go hand in hand with a basic redistribution of land.
It's the people in power in the government who makes laws in the government isn't it? The bad news is that there are also individuals who are very wealthy and influential. They may not be in the government and don't hold positions of power in the government but hey remember, money is power and so influence is also a form of power. They can use it to let those who are in the government promote their interests even if it is at the expense of the common people so you cannot expect them to create laws that will be against them. The only hope that is left for us is our voting power during election day that we may choose the people of integrity to put in the government to take care of us, but what if the only candidates left are not trustworthy? We are gored then we don't have a choice..but to revolt..
Laws are created for the welfare of the common people..of the majority and not for the few. When laws are made not for the benefit of the majority it is always lawful that the people stand up against the government even if they say it is unlawful after all we are the people, the government is just the representative of the people and they should act accordingly otherwise we have the right to set things right. The will of the people not just people but the majority is always superior than any existing laws because laws were made in the name of the people.
Autority of the governments are derived from God. It is abused and government reject the authority of God and then they are controlled by a corrupting power, a mystery talked about in the Bible. But God will bring this mystery down. Eventually Jesus will rule and He is only one pure in heart and not forgetting about the cause of the poor.
"Authority of the governments are derived from God"?????
How can you prove it? So you mean to say even Stalin, Hitler and Lenin derived their authority from God?
Well perhaps you are partly right by I am not sure what kind of god you are talking about.
Where do they derive their power from if not from the one who created it? The decleration of Independence states that they derive their power from the consent of the governed. This was not true because slaves and women could not vote and it is not true today. The approval rating of congress is 15% or so. What gives a person a right to govern? Hitler and Stalin will like all rulers appear before the judgement seat of Christ and they will be judged. Rulers must obey Christ. If they don't they are in trouble.
Well, I'm not a theologian, but I believe those proclamations were provided by the Old Testament during the time of Moses. But since you asked, I think it is a good idea for the poor and those up to their ears in debt... but this concept was abolished by the people who did NOT like the idea of giving up their wealth.
I like that what you wrote. In the New Testemant it is even more radical. He who has two shirts give the one who has none. In the Lord's prayer it is said. Forgive us our debt as we forgive those who are endebted against us.
I'm not going to ignore the point you are making here. Because I think it is a SIGNIFICANT one. If our Country's motto is "In God We Trust"... and we are predominantly a Christian nation... then why are people being held accountable for every penny of debt until the day they die? It's a huge contradiction. The I.R.S. and bill collectors are relentless. And the Credit Bureaus will ruin your Credit so that you cannot rent an apartment or even get a decent job. So, along the same lines as WWJD... what would Christians do if they were REALLY Christian in this Country?
Good point. We must spread the message and remind them what they pray in the Lord's prayer. THanks for the comment.
I saw a bumper sticker the other day that said; WWJD? "Jesus would slap the shit out of you" real story...
The only time Jesus got violent in the Gospels was when He drove the money changers.
Well then if that is the case of being Jesus becoming violent against greed perhaps there is a reason for us to be also violent today against greed and corruption.
But it is also written he who takes the sword will fall by the sword.
Violence does not always imply the use of the sword but if the use of sword is really necessary and if that is what it takes to achieve our aim then so be it.
In Germany we had a tyrannt Hitler ruining the world. So people decided to assassinate him. Among those people was a very devote Christian Dietrich Bonhoefer. However the assassinatin failed and he was killed.
Tt is because it was not enough. It took the force of the Allies to defeat Hitler.
No I don't think so. Look at the military superiority of the allied forces in Afganisthan. The Taliban poorly equipped fight against the western world with high tech weapons and they are not defeated yet. On the other hand look at Martin Luther in 16th cenury Europa. He was all alone at one point and freed countries from the oppression of Rome.
The following video deals with the question "was Jesus a socialist?"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTNvKSrdm_s&feature=youtube_gdata_player
I watched the video and I must say that it redefines socialism, because according to wikipedia it is: Socialism is an economic system in which the means of production are either state owned or commonly owned and controlled cooperatively; According to this common definition Joseph, the son of Judah, was the first one recorded in the Bible to set up a pure form of socialism because in the end the means of production was controlled by the state. The law of Moses on the contrary was the opposite: All property was in the hands of private people. BUT much more evenly distributed than it is now. The laws I have cited protect the people from the situation we have now.
I say Amen to that. The civil rights movement and laws enacted after that triggered the move of the alienated Southern democrats into the fold of Republicans, starting with Goldwater and ending with Reagan's election. So Race was the core divisive issue but Leo Strauss's Neocon tactics provided the opportunity for the rise of religious right of the Republican party. Tea Party is just the latest incarnation of this delusional lot who have combined Christianity with Thomas Friedman's Neoliberalism that is rooted in Ayn Rand's (a dyed in the wool Atheist) God-less libertarianism. So this group of unfortunate people have become corporate foot soldiers working with them to run the country to the ground. We need to win them back to the side of Jesus, with a simple slogan, like it says in this topic: WHAT WOULD JESUS DO?
Those of us in the OWS movement who think that we have to diss religion and stay away from religion I believe are naive. A large part of the 99% had been hoodwinked into a false cause, we need to win them back to the true path of Jesus Christ, the savior of the poor, the sick and the downtrodden.
My friend, thanks so much for the post. Your comment is like cold water for a thirsty soul.
It is written: Again, truly I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything they ask for, it will be done for them by my Father in.
Speaking in the name of ... IS liying !
"In Gold we trust" ? oops mistake..
Kick the money changers out of the temple
Jesus kicked the money changers out of the temple. But what for? So it becomes what it is supposed to be: Jesus said; My house will be called a house of prayer for all nations. Is this your goal as well?
Not sure but i do think we are at the tipping point kinda hard to hide the fact we now live in a police state .... Have you ever heard of the sons of liberty ?... do you know how we got that called the liberty tree ? ...
Sorry, no I have not heard of the sons of liberty? Who are they?
Learn american history ... learn what we have lost
[face-palm]
???
The love of money is the root of all evil. Money itself is not. I hope you have the clarity of perception to see that.
I have. So the American Dream of getting rich is not wise.
The American dream is being able to come to this country with practically nothing in your pocket like my grandparents on both sides of my family did and make a better life for yourself here.
There is nothing wrong with that I agree. But don't you agree that becoming rich is part ofAmerican dream as well?
Not necessarily. My dad was a first generation immigrant who came to this country and lived w/ his family in the poverty of the Bronx with a car seat as their only furniture. He worked his ass off and made it into the top 10% income bracket. Is my family rich? Not really, we're middle class. We're REALLY well-off when I look at other people's situations, but we're by no means fraternizing with the rich and famous. But nonetheless, my dad achieved the American dream. He wouldn't have been anything back in Greece (especially NOW...)
How about to look at it this way. A dream should no tbe necessary in a healthy society. In their all people have their decent living. The Bible teaches to be content when you have food and clothing. To strive for material wealth is human but not wise. Because in the end we all stand before God and then you rewarded for things you have not had a reward on earth. That is why Jesus says to the rich, woe to you, because YOU HAVE HAD YOUR REWARD. Don't you agree that it is wise to gather riches in heaven instead of the earth?
I'm a Christian as well as my mother, but my dad's an agnostic who became disenchanted with the church in and around his 20's. While he still admires the church's teachings, I wouldn't say that they govern his life. From a Christian perspective, I don't think being rich is a sin, as long as you use your wealth to be a good neighbor. My dad may be in the top 10%, but his money goes towards putting food on the table for his family, then paying the bills, etc. He taught me philanthropy. Any time I made a relatively large sum of money or earned alot of money in my childhood, I'd always find myself giving to a worthy cause like the Wounded Warriors Fund or World Vision.
Look at Andrew Carnegie (America's first millionaire and therein the richest man in the nation at the time), who was known for being a great philanthropist and man of the people. The love of money, not money itself, is the root of all evil.
You are right in saying the it is the love of money that it is root of all evil. But where comes this love from? What do you think? Why do some people go into this trap?
Because they allow money itself and the luxuries it provides to become their all-encompasing addiction. It becomes much like a drug for some people. I would never say my dad is like that. His first love is for his family, and he provides for us through the wealth that he does accumulate, and whatever wealth he has in surplus usually ends up in a savings account so that future problems for his family may be attended to.
And what do you say to the teaching of Jesus, that you should not care about what you will eat or how you will be clothed. Your father will provide for you. You seek righteousness and the Kingdom of God? Therefore he says that should not gather up riches where thieves break in and steal. You should gather riches in heaven where thieves do not break in and steal.? What is your take on that?
hello people
please comment
You sound like an anabaptist but without all that made the anabaptists cool
I don't quite understand. Please explain.
I think Jesus would want to work a fair days labor and not just get hand outs.
Don't we all get hand outs from God? Isn't life a gracious gift of God for many of us, compared with billions on the earth right now? For the same labor a person in India get a little and a person in the rich West can buy a house, one or two cars, go on vacation, get TVs, and so on. Are we no all living on hand outs from God?
Sure, life is a gift, but after that you have to put in the effort to sustain it. It is not the governments job to pay for you to live.
You are right in saying that. But arn't there bigger issues. Don't we have to look further to the Kingdom of God and how God is letting it grow? I mean government is one part of life like many others. God's kingdom is not split. It includes government as well. Why don't you look to the future how His Kingdom will be the greatest on eart according to the parable of Jesus about the Kingdom of God and the mustard seed: In beginning it is the smallest but it is bigger than all other brushes.
Jesus, when asked by a rich man what he had to do to enter heaven, told him to give all his wealth away and follow him. Jesus said, take care of the widows and fatherless. Feed the hungry. Heal the sick. Love others as you love yourself. Do not give false testimony. Greed is among the cardinal "sins." So much for being a "Christian nation."
AMEN, may the Lord bless you. What do you think God is about to do?
I do not profess to know the mind of God. Considering man's inhumanity to man, I think I am praying for mercy rather than judgment.
Yes, love is stronger than death.
He would say: Go home hippy!
Now seriously: What do you think, Jesus would say to the situation with the big banks and a government that has allowed the banks to gain so much power?
At least the bankers take a shower now and again.
I don't undestand.
I agree that Jesus is the Savior and that His mission on earth was to the needy and poor.
I agree that religion has no place in a good government. Not until He returns and sets up His government will the Christian ideal succeed because, as Matthias has said, we are all sinners. I am more leary of those claiming to have Christian goals running for office than anybody else. The Lord gives us free will and choice, not so that some loon can restrict it using His name. I believe that if a true Christian were elected we would not necessarily recognize it. He or she would not preach, but show Christ in action, by caring for the least among us. A Christian in office would look just like Mr. Obama and Mr. Biden: living with concern for this messed up world. Remember that Mr. Carter lived it (still does) and never thought of building a crazy theocracy. In office he acted no more religious than any other President - except in the sense that he tried to make this a better country and world.
Something on my mind: Why did the Republicans immediately claim that OWS is based in "class warfare"? Is it because in their own minds there are classes more and less worthy of having it all? Wonder where was the argument "This is class warfare" first made? Imperial France before the revolution or Czarist Russia? I am sure it was somewhere that the rich horded while 90+% went without. (I am not saying we have quite equalled those times in our inequities, but that we seem to be on that road. And their best argument will be that the lower [in their mind] class is at war with the higher [in their dreams].
Thanks for your comment. Can see the thoughts of Jonathan Edwards, the revial preacher of the 18 century, that the earth is in distress for 6000 years and in the 7th millenium God will give it rest. He believed that this will happen before the return of Christ. He believed that the prophecies of Isaiah will happen before Jesus' return. As I understand it was the common belief of this time. They have experienced great revivals. They have seen what God can do to tunr arounf a community with His Spirit. What do you think?
Yes, let's keep religion out of politics. I don't WANT our government following Jesus or any other religious leader or ideology. Believe it or not, people, but this movement is made up of people of all different faiths and some without faith. Do not try to inject your own personal religion into this or into government. This should be a democracy for ALL people.
So please show me the prospects of a democracy. Have you ever thought about how much democracies have failed. Look around the world and look at the democracies. Why do you want to shut your eyes and refuse to be helped by God with the poor excuse that others don't do it either.
What does god have to do with anything? If you'd like to talk about democracy, fine, but I'm not going to couple it with a religious debate.
You have not read my post and understood. Show me one nation that excludes God and has rigteousness and love, and peace. Just one nation. ANd you want to do it all over again. Men are bad with heart unable to love their neighbor as yourself. Can you say: I have cleaned my heart; I am free of sin? WIthout the help of God you will eventually get to the same place we are now in case you succeed.
Don't preach to me. Show me a nation WITH god that is a utopia. Your religious views are moot when it comes to running a government.
I am sure you have heard Salomo. His wisdom is proverbial. He ruled in Israel. They had peace lived in total prosperity. But I must admid he did fall away from serving God wholeheartedly because at the end He worshipped idols as well. But God has started his Kingdom 2000 years ago. This kingdom will take over and then there will be worldwide peace.
facepalm A kingdom 2000 years ago? I find it rather funny that you're exalting a KINGDOM (with subjects at the mercy of a king) to justify...whatever the hell it is you're trying to say. Please keep your religion out of my government. It's okay for you to believe, it's okay for you to go to church, but I don't want your brand of personal beliefs in my government.
Do you know by your spirit you have supported the fact that the government does not submit to Christ. What is wrong with no interest for debt, debt release every 7 years and redistribution of wealth. All this God commanded. But you prefer to be ruled by a government that does not care about these rules. Is it because you don't want righteous laws to rule over you either?
I'm an atheist. I have no use for your gods or spirits. But I am willing to work with you and others like you for a better government. That's what this movement is about. Coming together as one people, although we are all different. This isn't about your Jesus. Keep your religion out of my government and stop trying to couple this movement with your Christianity. I want to change the way this governement works, but I don't want a theocracy.
This is your problem.
Actually, it's one less problem.
Waht do you mean. Sorry I don't get it.
It means that I don't have a problem because I'm atheist. That's not a problem. Being blinded by religion is a problem that I no longer have. But as I've said before, I'm willing to discuss politics and government with theists and try to come up with solutions to problems. For you to just wave your hand and say all my problems come from non-belief in your particular brand of theism is unhelpful, dismissive, and rude. And it's the reason a lot of non-Christians don't take preachy people like you seriously.
Ok if you like to talk politics. So what do actually think about these there poiltical laws: You are not allowed to take interst. Every seven years all devts are canceled. Every 50 there is basic redistribution of land. So what do you think.
I don't agree with redistributing land every 50 years. Of course, these are kind of vague. What exactly are you talking about?
In Israel each family got land. So if lets say if one father of family sells the land it would go back into the family possesion every 50 years. This way the next generation does not suffer or profit of the behavior of the parents. If nowaday you have a release of debt but the poor does not have any captial he can wrok with, build up a business, he is on the brink to get endebted again. If people are not financially independet than there dependence gives bargaining power that results in unfair prices. The more people are independent the fairer the prices.
I wouldn't want to have the land I purchased and raised my family on go back to the people I purchased it from if I want to give it to my children for them to make a home on. It would be unfair to my children...and if the originial sellers are dead, where does the land go then? No, I don't think that's a good idea.
First of all, you have your land. EVERY family had land. So you would have land. But don't you see how the other system works. Your father is rich, and you can go on parties and get EVEN RICHER, because others work for you. These three laws TOGETHER prevent what is going on today.
tis thy father who opened our eyes, our father who gave us insight to what has blinded us for the greater part of 2 decades. our father cannot sway all to this cause but to give the opportunity to fix what needs repair. it is the american spirit that drives the fight to fix the wrongs of society but it is the lord, his holy spirit at the helm and in the heart of every revolution.
So you agree to what I have written?
yes but i dont think God commands us of anything, i believe the evils of greed and corruption is the devil in his most elegant and influential form. with his voice slaying the the word of God, he blinds the tempted into finding a way around our lords principles thus our lord sees the dissension and opens our eyes, the eyes of the innocent to fix the terror and restore peace. if we fail to fix our lives he will destroy us. i believe revelations is upon us. however the horseman have yet to appear. could it be related to the occupation evolving into a more cohesive unit i dont know.
No I don't see it so negativ. God wants to help. He wants to help all. If all ldon't want his help he helps the one does want his help. You do not have to struggle yourself through life. Jesus says: Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.” Don't struggle for yourself go to God. He is waiting.
youre right, i embrace God through fear maybe thats why i see it so negative.
The fear is the beginning of wisdom. But love is the end and will drive out fear. There noone with greater love than God.
Q: What would Jesus say about Christianity? A: "I am not a Christian! "
probably follow me but dont label us.
What do you mean
religion got nothing to do with this buddy.
Without knowing this very belief has supported the abuse of power by WallSt. Why? Because it justifies the government to not submit to the higher power above them God, who commands the governments to protext the poor with the laws I have mentioned above. No interest, debt release every seven years and so on.
Jesus would tell us..... STRIKE for 24H! Because the gmnt is under Luciferian controle !
Don't you think there is a peaceful soltion possible?
The best peaceful solution is a strike for 24H ....... what do u need less than that?? going down the streets and watching each others???\ DO SOMETHING EFFECTIVE !
No, I am afraid, it will harm you too. Jesus says whoever takes the sword will fall by the sword. Love your enemies. He loved His enemies and they were cruicifying Him. Please don't do it for your sake.
U r a coward ! hahahahahaha afraid? cowaarrddd
I think sometimes it takes more courage to turn the other cheek than to hit back. DOn't you agree?
nop
Maybe there is huge misunderstanding on my side. I am German and English in not my native language. I understood stike to mean a kind of "military strike" but it danwed to me that you mean a "labor strike". If so I think it is a good idea and peaceful.
I'm of the belief that Jesus was misquoted. It is the deranged belief in religion that is the "route" of all evil
I agree that Jesus is misquoted by some people. However not in the Bible. Because why should He be misquoted? Love delights in the truth. It is people who have bad motivations. The love of money being one of them and maybe the biggest.
Weird - there were 666 comments until I commented and made it 667
So has it a meaning for you or me?
OCCUPY LOGO worldwide. Print it out or easy to draw. But a single symbol we can all stand behind as the movement goes international.
http://occupylogo.blogspot.com/
The better name: Jesus King of Kings
david fitch wonders if evangelicals should occupy http://www.reclaimingthemission.com/is-it-time-for-evangelicals-to-join-occupy-wall-street/
One thing is for sure: They should pray to God the Almighty to bring them justice. And his promise is that He will do it speedily. I do not believe that it is solely up to men. Of course we are living beings and called to bear good fruit and diligently work but it is all invane if God does not bless it. The people of Cyech Republic were wholeheartly demonstrating against the %1 but the protest was run over by tanks.
Jesus would say, "why are you people on wall st? why aren't you at the white house and on capitol hill? wtf?"
But it is also written: Many seek the face of a ruler, but it is from the LORD that a man gets justice
Religion is another arm of the "global elite" control system along with money, and was created for that purpose in the 4th century. The objective of RC religion is power and control through fear and guilt.
The pope is connected to the banksters as well as the Zionists, the heads of which are the Rothschilds and the Saxe Coburg-Gotha family - aka British monarchy. The queen is the ceremonial head, while Rothschilds are the "generals" represented by the tip of the "all seeing eye" on the pyramid.
All the current "global elite" have German/Jewish ancestry.
It was the German Martin Luther who broke with this horrible abuse of power in teh name of Christ. And it will Christ who will bring down all others who abuse his religion of setting free the oppressed. Please don't mix up the abuse of something with the righteous use ot it. Think of Martin Luther King.
What has Martin Luther got to do with this question?
I have many German friends and many Jewish friends, but they are not Zionist.
The banks and RC church - not the Protestants - are controlled by the Rothschild and Saxe Coburg-Gotha Zionists, for globals world dominance.
This is why the USA backs Israel at all costs. The presidential "handlers" are Zionists as well exceept for the Rockefeller family who look after things in the US.
Look I think you should differeniate between crooks who abuse religion who true Christians like Marthin Luther and Martin Luther King who brought change to society you want to get as well.
good night
Good night! I hope you drop in again.
Is this thread still going on?
Well Matthias it is very simple.
Jesus occupied, and even attacked the "money changers at the temple. Todays temple of the money changers is Wall Street.
So Jesus would say "We Are The 99%"!
Thanks for coming back. Today I had I thought and would like to hear your take on it. Now if Wall Street Bankers walk away with tens of millions I cannot see reason why they earned it. But today I thought about those athletes musicians, pundits who earn as much a day and more than I earn a year. Isn't fair to talk about that as well?
World first of all, The Wall Street Bankers walked away with Trillions. In fact, they stash it away in the News York Mellon bank where the official "deposits" are $26 Trillion.
The difference between the banksters and the other groups you mention is that the banksters have defrauded the public and radically affected their quality of living out of total greed - like the temple money changers.
Also, the banksters do not "earn the money", they give it to themselves in "bonuses" when the banks make a profit from the gambling casino called derivatives, and from the public when they lose their bets.
The other groups are arguably over-paid, but do everyone understands that and the general public do not suffer.
In case of the pundits I see the problem that they will hardly speak against riches. Why is there not a presidential candidate who pledges "middle class poverty" let's say $50.000 a year and runs for president. I see the elite in the USA are all paid so much. The Bible says
And thou shalt take no gift: for the gift blindeth the wise, and perverteth the words of the righteous.
Isn't it possible to set up an independet candidate who communicates over the internet like youtube, social media, lets say backed by OWS, so he needs no money, he refuses to take any gifts does the "Middle class poverty" pledge" and runs for president.
You can quote the bible all you like, but the fact is the entire system is broken - and soon it will crash due to its own greed.
OWS Is The Change We Want To See In The World - a Brave New World.
The change we want to see is true rigteousness not just another form of human government that geids rid of one evil and sets up there own because they too have a lack of love. We need a stimulus of love for the people which is provided by the Gospel.
Crucify him!
Yes, this is what the crowd shouted. They were stiired up the theolgians of their time. What has stirred up you?
Our Egyptian connection is strong too. Egypt was the model for our republic. Note the Egyptian pyramid and single Eye of Horus on the back of our dollar bill. Egypt was the most evolved society of all antiquity, and the model of good governance. It was egalitarian as well, 4 and 5000 years ago.
According to scripture Moses was an Egyptian priest, trained in all the wisdom of the Egyptians, and Jesus brought his teaching (not the distorted church message) out of Egypt as well.
Accoring to my sources Salomon was by far the wisest ruler and at His time silver was counted nothing because his economy was so properous that there was gold without end.
Jesus would say "Elect Elizabeth Warren"
Why. I don't know much about her. Is she standing up for Jesus' law like Martin Luther did in Germany?
Tax religion, no more exemptions for religious institutions or property.
I am with you on this in a sense that I don't understand the churches in the USA who choose not to pay taxes and rather keep their mouth shut in regard to election of candiates.
They should pay and also keep their mouths shut in regard to election of candidates. Religion should have no place in the every day discourse of the modern world. If individuals decide to believe, fine. If they decide to have a place of worship, fine. Tax them and leave them alone. But, as for having a voice, no. Freedom of religion is no more important that freedom from religion.
So you think there is no wisdom besides the wisdom of humans?
Animals, there is the wisdom of animals.
If a person has certain beliefs/wisdom that he feels arise from his religion, so be it. The exact same "wisdom" can be derived from secular sources without being bound to the dark and exclusionary side of any religion.
Men with His wisdom can not even a simple living organism like a mosqito. So with all the prove around us I must be blind to deny that there is higher wisdom
Ahhh... You are a creationist then. That means the discussion ends. There is no reasoning with someone that is going to bring everything back to some "god" as the origin of all things. The creationist can't prove his point without circular reasoning and rationalists can't, and shouldn't even try, to prove a negative.
edit: Which by the way, is the main reason that religion should be kept out of everything but church.
Have a nice day. Good by.
"“Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s, and unto God the things that are God’s". Sounds like Jesus is talking about separation of church and state too, no?
It is also written: Psalm 2
1 Why do the nations conspire[a] and the peoples plot in vain? 2 The kings of the earth rise up and the rulers band together against the LORD and against his anointed, saying, 3 “Let us break their chains and throw off their shackles.” 4 The One enthroned in heaven laughs; the Lord scoffs at them. 5 He rebukes them in his anger and terrifies them in his wrath, saying, 6 “I have installed my king on Zion, my holy mountain.”
7 I will proclaim the LORD’s decree:
He said to me, “You are my son; today I have become your father. 8 Ask me, and I will make the nations your inheritance, the ends of the earth your possession. 9 You will break them with a rod of iron[b]; you will dash them to pieces like pottery.”
10 Therefore, you kings, be wise; be warned, you rulers of the earth. 11 Serve the LORD with fear and celebrate his rule with trembling. 12 Kiss his son, or he will be angry and your way will lead to your destruction, for his wrath can flare up in a moment. Blessed are all who take refuge in him.
How much more to the point can you say it?
Verse 7 is talking about the coming Messiah, so that would make it t THAT person's job to throw down secular authorities, religious worshippers. If you want to go verse for verse, then:
"Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God’s wrath on the wrongdoer. Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God’s wrath but also for the sake of conscience. For because of this you also pay taxes, for the authorities are ministers of God, attending to this very thing. Pay to all what is owed to them: taxes to whom taxes are owed, revenue to whom revenue is owed, respect to whom respect is owed, honor to whom honor is owed" Romans 13:1-7... I would say, that's also pretty clear.
Furthermore, keep in mind, Jesus submitted his own life to DEATH by crucifixion by an unjust governing authority because he believed that God would remember their cruelty and punish them in the afterlife with eternal damnation. It doesn't seem like Jesus ever expected fairness in this world, but put his hope in a divinely promised better world. Christians were also told to embrace their poverty and not fight it, for the hope of "treasures in heaven" (Matthew 6:20), and to be proud of weakness, destitution, and suffering (Matthew 5:3-12)... Christianity in it's earliest form was about perservering, and having hope in the divine, not about drawing battle lines in the sand against human authority. Anyway this is not the place for a religious debate, especially since a lot of people here probably don't even believe in this stuff... and what's the point of this thread anyway?
The question was whether state can be seperated from Christ. So the answer ist that God commands the state to submit to Christ.
The question of whether or not the state can be separated from Christ is irrelevant. They are already separate entities.
For the church, the state was never meant to play a part of community spiritual life. Any reaction towards the state would have to be in response to policies that obligate believers to act contrary to God's prescribed ways, or to renounce their faith. As for the individual Christian, the relationship between the believer and the state, in the Christian worldview, is virtually absent. The Christian is essentially God's "property" because he was "bought" by Christ's redemptive act. Therefore, any injustices perpetrated by the state upon believers is not to be avenged by the property itself (the believer), but by the owner of that property (God/Jesus). Therefore, the only legitimate form of protest by believers is always accomplished through passive resistance, not by the active demonstration of political will. The belief is that God would avenge this injustice, because the violation against your person by the state is not really an offense against you, but against God to whom you belong.
Throughout occidental history, the church has been intertwined in politics. This should have never been the case.
OWC is thinking about what the state is supposed to do. Since it is a democracy each voter is part of the state. So a believer is supposed to submit to Christ in all areas of life and in all roles he has. So being government as well he has to fill this role in submission to Christ. Therefore it is not irrelevant in my view.
You are right, a citizen of a democracy has an assignment of political responsibility that he can conscientiously chose to follow, or had thrust upon him by being born an US citizen. An individual who is both Christian and a US citizen can fulfill his obligation to the state, and his spiritual obligations to God without much conflict. Of course, his political actions (like voting) will certainly be influenced by his belief system, but that hardly means that his act has integrated church and state. His vote is one vote. Politically, he speaks for himself and no one else. His exercise of political power is between himself (his conscience), his state, and his God. His responsibility as a Christian and as a US citizen extends only so far as exercising his political right, and making sure that when he does so, he is still obeying his God.
Jesus has never talked about church and state. He talked about Hid kingdom and the kingdom of the world. My take on it is that it is not the office that determins what kingdom you belong to. He said to Pilate, if my Kingdom were of this world my followers would fight. The Pharasees did do excatly that. SO although they held the office of the church at that time they acted in the spirit of the world. On the other side you can hold the office of government and act in the spirit of the Kingdom of God. So modern distinction between church and state is not right. The spirit you live by decides what kingdom you belong to.
In light of Biblical Truth, do you think it is possible for your actions to change the world?
Jesus says: Truly I tell you, if anyone says to this mountain, ‘Go, throw yourself into the sea,’ and does not doubt in their heart but believes that what they say will happen, it will be done for them. Nothing is impossible with God. So with faith your actions can change the world.
Does that mean that a person with a strong enough faith can by his faith ask for and receive things that lead to sin?
Tricky question! God gives good things. But I guess if you become proud because of it you might fall into sin.
So, there is an implicit limitation on what prayers God will answer - that is, the thing asked for must also be according to the will of God. In that case, if we are to put any thought into what Jesus thinks of OWS, we have to first understand what God wants of his redeemed people (perhaps only a small fraction of OWS supporters).
You surprise me. Very good thought. I am not used to get very many very good thoughts. You made very curous: What do you think what God wants of his redeemed people.
That is a hard question, something I struggle to understand everyday. It's something I am not qualified nor brave enough to answer on my own. From the perspective of the Bible, God wants His people to acknowledge Him. He wants their attention, their adoration, and most importantly their love. From limited understanding of the Biblical perspective, the fate of the world (collective human civilization) is doomed from the beginning. It was never meant to last. The cumulative work that God has been doing in the world has not been to save the whole world, including its many institutions, but to call out His own chosen that they may worship Him, and that He may take care of them. It is for the purpose of His own glory, not ours, that He does this. The question, "why does He do it in this way" is a complete mystery.
Thanks for your insight. And what do you think He wants us to do right now in regard to OWS?
That's between you and God ;)
I think He wants me to be a witness for the truth and work on making known His Word. How has God gifted you?
Well, if that is your goal then you have my blessing, for what it's worth. As for myself? I am a fool; a prodigal son. No gift I have ever received from God has ever been used to advance His kingdom. I believe in Jesus's redemption, but I question if I love God. I'm 31 today. Like the grass, today I am here, and tomorrow I perish. I only hope that God can reconcile me to Himself before I die. If not, and there is a Hell, then I deserve it and go gladly knowing that my damnation is a testament to His glory, and a rebuke to all those like me.
Let me tell you my story. When I was in the eaarly 20th I read the Bible from beginning to end and I want to know the truth about God. I found it but I also found out that I do not live Him enough to follow Him. And I did not. I knew I would end up in hell but my love for myself and the world was bigger than the love for Christ. By His totally undeserving grace God changed my heart in the next 7 years. I mand my heat hate myself and the world so I was able to follow Jesus with my little love for Him that I had. THis love has increased because I have been blessed so many times and He has foriven so many sins that it has grown. Nothing is impssible with God. Believe in Him and the Holy Spirit will take case of you. I am thankful that I could me you.
REALLY ??? That's your point ???
The majority of Americans (76%) identify themselves as Christians, mostly within Protestant and Catholic denominations, accounting for 51% and 25% of the population respectively. (Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_the_United_States)
This is truely amazing that there are so many professing Christians and the Word of Christ: Forgive us our debt as we forgive those who are indebted against us. Where is it obeyed? The Greek word for debt means first of all debt in an economical sense. Has there ever been a voice among the well known Chrsitian leaders that there should be a release of debt. I have not heard one. But Martin Luther lived in a time where probably more were professing Christians but the Word of God had to be rediscovered because the authorities had rigged it.
The separation of church and state is a supreme act of propaganda. States ARE religions, motivated by their own transcendent ideals (liberty, equality) and replete with their hierarchy of demigods (Washington, Jefferson...etc).
“A house divided against itself cannot stand.” (Mark 3:25) This is a statement that has rung true throughout the ages. Lincoln used it 3 years before the beginning of the Civil War, and wasn’t he dead on the mark?
SInce God is the ruler of the earth and of governments. Any government that does not submit to Him has set up an idol, by replacing God's role.
are you asking those protesters who don't believe in the Christian god to not participate in this movement? you have the intellectual capacity of a prawn sandwich.
Sorry I am German and my English is not that good. What is prawn sandwich? Maybe it is not that bad of a comparison. The other logic I do not understand because I cannot think of anything I wrote that would say that non Christians cannot participate. Please tell me how you come up with this idea.
Matthias, I wish you and many more like minded people would go to the website/blogs of the conservatives who profess to be followers of Christ and spread your message there. They are the ones who truly need to be reminded of the teachings of Jesus. The OWS protesters, regardless of whether they are believers or not, are surely espousing a more Christian message than the money changers, don't you think? The OWS folks want to feed the hungry, house the homeless and heal those who are sick. Wouldn't Jesus be more aligned with them? "Jesus said you cannot obey both God and riches." What do CNBC and Fox News preach? To them, riches ARE God! "The love of money is the root of all evil." Fox, CNBC and Rush Limbaugh worship before the golden altar of money above all else, leeching off the 99% of Americans. You should mobilize as many as possible to blanket Jesus' message at places like The American Spectator, The Wall Street Journal, Red State.com, Foxnews.com.... write the hosts of all Fox shows like Megyn Kelly, Bill O'Reilly, Sean Hannity, etc. Do you think these conservatives who profess to be Christians but hate the poor, the disabled, the homeless, etc. should be allowed to continue practicing their hypocrisy? Go and spread the good news where it is really needed. The protesters are already doing God's work.
My friend I can share your frustration with the Christian Republicans. But let me assure you that I did try to talk to them. I used to live in the US for almost 5 years. Now I am living in Germany because I am German. So when I was over there I spend lots of time argueing against some Republican views that I cannot reconcile with the Gospel. I was told more or less to go home. I had no success. As you can imagine the socialist name calling was unpacked right away. When Rep Rangel publicly asked what would Jesus say about the debt crisis I wrote an open leter sending it also to foxnews and nbcnews and others. As you can imagine no one published it. I am very much puzzled about the political views of my American Christian Republican brothers. But believe me I invested a lot of heart and time to try to convince them of the teachings of Christ in respect to money and the economy and politics. One church questioned whether I am a Christian after all. I must tell you if people who have not seen God rail against me I have no hard time staying calm, but if Christians - and there are a lot in the republican ranks - say and do what they do - which in my eyes can be so much against the truth - I have my difficulties to keep my calm. The reason why I am here is maybe because you are more willing to think about views of others. Truth seem not to affect republican Christians when it comes to some parts of Christ's teachings. Or at least truth does not affect them as it should.
I am at a loss to explain that fully. Why are they this way. Please tell me.
I think that Conservative Republicans CLAIM to be Christians so they can justify their very un-Christian-like views and policies. It's perhaps the most infuriating part of human nature. But that's why I suggested that a tactic that you could try would be to "carpet bomb" conservative website blogs with the basic teachings of Jesus. Put it IN THEIR FACE! Probably won't do anything but it's worth a try. They are too deeply ensconced in their own personal self interest. I think you should take comfort, however, in the fact that the OWS protesters, although many are giving you a bad time here, are actually more representative of those basic Christian teachings, though it would make them cringe to admit it. Ironic, huh? Republicans claim to be Christian but aren't. Protesters disparaging Christianity while putting it into practice in thought and deed. Humans are hilarious!
Thanks. for your thoughts
Spare me your religious rant. Regarding economcs, I believe that Jesus said, "The poor will always be with you."
What part of my post does your scripture contradict?
I guess he would say " flip over their tables"
So do you agree with what I wrote above?
Jah love will shine. Jah love will illuminate the truth.
Love for all mankind. Love for all the world's inhabitants.
Keep your eye on the prize. Keep your eye off the money.
Follow your heart. Follow your dreams.
Jah. Rastafari.
NIce words and in the Jesus we have someone who proved with his life that he loves. And God raised him from the dead and proved to us that this man is His chosen one the savior and comming judge. I do not any other human being that would have lived a life of perfect love.
It is something we all strive for. I pray we see a world of love before it's too late.
Do you believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God?
No sir. I believe that Jesus Christ was a very devout Jew whose message was misconstrued by many.
But how about the witness of over 500 people as recorded in the book of acts written by the physician Luke. They have seen him alive after His death on the cross? And should many of these people who have seen him and preach his resurection give their lifes for it. I can imagine if you know something to be wrong but have advantages by saying this lie. But if you face death I cannot imagine to hold on a lie. So what are your thoughts about this?
Here is my problem...between the death of Jesus Christ and today there has been a lot of funny business in the world of Christianity. There were the crusades - God definitely did not want that. There was the corruption behind the Church - God definitely did not want that. What makes you believe that God created an inherently flawed system for his children to participate in? In my opinion, and I don't mean to object with your opinion, but in my opinion only, Christianity took the Jewish religion, and turned it on itself. Why would God create one religion...to then create another religion...which would ultimately create a Church that lied to it's devout believers, and start world-wide wars in the name of greed, and God? That doesn't sound very ethical to me.
I don't mean to expose the flaws of Christianity, because you seem to be very devout and I don't wish to obstruct your belief system. Please, if you have reverence for God then by all means continue. I'm just saying from a logical perspective I can't seem to understand the validity of Christianity. I understand you have sacred scriptures which you hope contain truths, so by all means continue to believe. It just doesn't make sense to me...
Thanks for your reply. I appreciate that you share your concern. I did the very same thing and by doing that I was more and more convinced of the truth of the Word of God. Because God gave me an answer to my questions. Not all, but almost all. Questioning God is natural for us humans because we are limited in our understanding. Now I hope that I can be of help. I am of course still very limited in my understanding of the countless works of God.
a.) Jesus predicted 2000 years ago that this will happen, by pointing out that at judgment day, MANY (not a few, but many) will come to him and say: Lord have we not prophesied in your name and done this and that......... and Jesus will tell them: Depart from me you evil-doers I have never known you.
In a parable He picks up the same issue: Jesus told them another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. 25 But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared.“The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’“‘An enemy did this,’ he replied. “The servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’“‘No,’ he answered, ‘because while you are pulling the weeds, you may uproot the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.
Jesus also gives an interpretation himself, which goes like this:
Jesus answered, “The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the people of the kingdom. The weeds are the people of the evil one, and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.“As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Whoever has ears, let them hear.
b.) The book of wisdom in the Bible says: The LORD has made everything for his own purposes, even the wicked for a day of disaster. But what good does an evil doer do? Again the book of wisdom we find: If you punish a mocker, the simpleminded will learn a lesson; if you correct the wise, they will be all the wiser.
(3). to your thought: What makes you believe that God created an inherently flawed system for his children to participate in?
In the beginning the first humans failed to stay with living in love and obedience and they fell and death entered the world. All there descendants are born with this flaw heart.
Again the book of wisdom says: Who can say, "I have cleansed my heart; I am pure and free from sin"?
All men are included into this sinful existence. Why. So he can show grace to them all. Why? This way there existence and acceptance in God’s presence is not based on moral perfection but on grace.
God wants to set up an eternal kingdom. But righteousness is the base for a kingdom to survive. But if our righteousness is based on our works we are under enormous pressure and we will eventually fail and be kicked out. Now the righteousness comes from faith in the work of God told in the Gospel. Jesus died for our sins and whoever believes will not be judged. He is the eternal sacrifice for our sins. Therefore I do not have to be afraid if I might sin because Jesus has died for the consequences.
(4). to your thought: Christianity took the Jewish religion, and turned it on itself. Why would God create one religion...to then create another religion
The first religion given to Moses was based on the law. And the law says condemn is everybody who does not stay in keeping ALL commandments. The law was written on stone and man with a sinful heart did not keep and even the opposite: The law enticed them to become even more sinful. We all know that when we tell someone that they are not allowed to do that there desire might even rise to do it. Is the law sinful then? No, it shows the sinfulness of us even clearer. It points us to a desperate need of grace and mercy. The first religion was there to prepare the people for the second the eternal covenant which is not based on total obedience to the law written in stone but on faith in the Gospel.
What good does this do? It produces love the only true motivation to keep the law. It is lack of love we all have. But how can we generate or restore love. By being loved by God. Again the book of wisdom says: He who covers over an offense promotes love, but whoever repeats the matter separates close friends. I hope I could be help. If not ask me again or ask a Christian who is better able to explain the mysteries and difficulties of the Gospel.
Matthias, I'm afraid you have the Jewish religion misunderstood. While I understand that the word of the Gospel provides many answers, my point about corruption is to highlight that perhaps the Church created these answers so that it would be easy to convert people (which is how they spread all over the world), telling people that Jesus died for their sins.
This is why I believe you don't truly understand the Jewish religion. You say "The first religion given to Moses was based on the law. And the law says condemn is everybody who does not stay in keeping ALL commandments." This is incorrect. Everyone sins. No on died for your sins. In the Jewish religion we believe in the lunar calendar, and we understand that our sins are basically "reset" once a year during the 10 days of Awe between Rosh Hashanah (the start of the new year) and Yom Kippur (when the book of Judgement is closed). I understand that Christianity has many answers to explain a lot of the thing's that happened in throughout history, but it doesn't explain how someone can die for your sins. This is not Jewish. Jesus was a Jew. This is why I believe that Christianity took the Jewish religion and turned it on itself.
I want to learn. Since we share the Old Testament please tell me where a prophet was saying that every year the sins are reset?
The Jewish religion is based on the word of God, the Torah. We had many prophets arise along the way, though we hold no prophet to be the Son of God. Each prophet has a unique purpose. Each prophet is a mere mortal with a rational understanding of God. Here's an article about the Days of Awe:
http://www.jewfaq.org/holiday3.htm
Thanks now I know what you relate to. What about the prophet Isaiah prophecying Isaiah 53
1 Who has believed our message and to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed? 2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot, and like a root out of dry ground. He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him, nothing in his appearance that we should desire him. 3 He was despised and rejected by mankind, a man of suffering, and familiar with pain. Like one from whom people hide their faces he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.
4 Surely he took up our pain and bore our suffering, yet we considered him punished by God, stricken by him, and afflicted. 5 But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was on him, and by his wounds we are healed. 6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to our own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all. Doesn't clearly say that "was pierced for our transgressions,*
Isaiah, yet another Jewish prophet. I propose to you, Matthias, that you understand the teachings of the Jewish religion, spun off in it's own direction that neglects to understand the history of the Jewish people. The Jewish religion was not created for Christianity. The Torah is the basis for the Jewish and Christian understanding of God, only Christianity takes all of the responsibility off of the individual and pins it on Jesus Christ, the most intellectual and devout Jew since Moses.
Don't you agree that you are avoiding answering my question?
No, I'm sorry perhaps I didn't understand your question. I'd like to stay away from citing the New Testament though. In my opinion, and again I don't mean to offend yours, the New Testament has many truths that are hidden among lies, so I don't care to debate the words of the New Testament. I'm open to discuss the basis for Christianity as it applies to Judaism, but I would not like to debate the words of the Gospel.
I think there is misunderstanding. I was quoting the Old Testament the book Isaiah. Isaiah said: But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was on him, and by his wounds we are healed.
Take this idea for example...if Jesus was a Jewish Rabbi who descended from Heaven as the Son of God, why would the Jewish religion not evolve into its next state? The Jewish religion calls for the Messiah, similar to the Christian religion which calls for the second coming of Jesus Christ. We share a common goal, we just have a different interpretation of the past 2011 years.
Perhaps Isaiah was insinuating that Jews, around the time of Jesus, had sinned in some way. These sins would have been exposed by the crucifixion of Jesus. When the Jewish people witnessed the atrocities that they had brought upon themselves (the crucifixion of the Rabbi Jesus), they acted swiftly to heal their wounds and progress so to avoid being annihilated by those who crucified Jesus Christ himself.
Don't you agree that this is pretty far fetched and the more obvious interpretation is that it was Jesus who is described by Isaiah because you yourselfed said that He was the good man.
Isaiah is describing Jesus. "But [Rabbi Jesus] was pierced for [the Jewish people's] transgressions, [Rabbi Jesus] was crushed for [the Jewish people's] iniquities; the punishment that brought [the Jewish people] peace was on [Rabbi Jesus], and by [Rabbi Jesus'] wounds [the Jewish people] are healed."
see above
I tend to think we need to welcome everyone. If christian values and ours lead both groups to this same "righteous" place, what does it matter if they have different sources? And if some want to talk about how an inspiring figure from the past (god or otherwise) took on the money-changers, good! Let's be intolerant only of intolerance.
What is a value? A value is an aspect of righteousness, a piece of a puzzle,. Abuse of power sets in with there is a piece missing. It will always find its way to the missing piece. Therefore the source you get the pieves from must be able to provide all pieces. I do not know any human able to do that. But God is.
Sorry, but for me deities are a human creation, we create them as an aspect of our moralistic and emotional/intuitive superegos. I just go right to the source. I know right from wrong.
I agree that deities are created by humans. Almost all. It is in human nature to set up idols. But reason tells me there must be one and only be one who created all this. As much as you I go right to the source. But I look for the ultimate one. Humans err, I err, but the one that has created this complex system cannot err.
"Wall Street weeps?"
Religion is Wall Streets greatest silent weapon, if yu really think about it.. The word religion, in Latin, means..1. obligation 2. rite 3. sanction 4. sanctity
God is WallSt biggest and most dangerous enemy.
No dear....WE ARE!!!
God helps those who help themselves and I do believe Wall Street knew that. They took the bull by the horns on that phrase and the masses (sleepy heads that they are) let them get away with it!
I live in Europe and there were a couple of movements like OWS, where the 99% stood up against the 1%. One for instance was in Czech republic and one in East Germany. One was roled over by tanks and the other one succeeded. It is in your hands to do something but God decides the outcome.
I am not quite sure why you are so sure that God must decide anything if we are the ones who have to do something....why would he waste his time? After all....a loving Father would not want his children to die, now would he, nor would he stand by and let them die. Man's God today, tomorrow is not God....so religious beliefs should be left alone, in silence where they begin, in the heart and mind and soul of the individual, not on a forum preaching!!!
You preach human thoughts. I preach heavenly thoughts. Anyway I wish you all the best.
Do you believe you are not human, or that God speaks to you only? I don't think religious zealots have a place on a forum that is discussing the rights of humanity, society, or the world. Religious freedom is a part of the Constitution and for anyone to put their foot on the neck of anyone who "has the right" to privacy regarding religious beliefs is hypocritical in the scheme of life in this country. You save your preaching for the pulpit, and I will save mine for myself, thank you kindly!!!
How much of your knowledge has come from your own research and how much of your knowledge is based on learning from sources outside of your own experience. So if I study the Bible and quote His law that you cannot take interest, debts should be released every 7 years, why is this bad zeal. What is wrong with these laws. Do you reject them because they are from God and anything from God belongs to the pulpit. This is a political law? Why are you so against it?
And why are you so adamant about it?
I really don't care about your beliefs... After all, people had faith in the dollar bill and look what is happening.
Henry the VIII created a lot of 'RELIGIOUS LAWS' sanctioning them as being sent to him since he was an instrument of God in "his own eyes". So he would behead, slaughter, quarter, disembowel anyone who went against him and his "political laws"!! Has anything changed in the world? And his daughter 'Bloody Mary' tortured and put to death many individuals who did not conform to her religious beliefs AS WELL!! So has anything changed in the world??? Now, here you appear, just like those in other countries, trying to divide and conquer. Spouting goodness, and mercy and death because you "believe" your religious beliefs are also sanctioned by God and try to put my "human thoughts" under a microscope and say I am against religion? Are you related to anyone in Europe, or the Middle East???? If not, then stop acting like it!!!!! We all have rights!!! That is what this forum is about....OUR RIGHTS!!!!
I am not only related to Europe, I am an European. I was born in Germany, I am living in Germany and I have the German citizenship. So I don't quite understand what is wrong with that?
Your problem(s)...not OURS!!!
So...what good are you...way over there? You don't care what takes place here except for the financial part.
Here is why..... http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financialcrisis/8160999/EU-rescue-costs-start-to-threaten-Germany-itself.html
I'm sure you understand EXACTLY what I am saying!!!
Take care... Of your own....that is...
Yes, Germany is drawn in this as well. Maybe you know Reg Green, the Canadian Comedian. He always said. We're All In This Together
Somehow, I seriously doubt you actually believe that.
So, on that note...."Gott sei mit Euch".
Mit Euch auch! Farewell.
Keep religion out, yes. But the teachings of god as interpreted in the message above, make a lot of sense. BTW religion does not necessarily equal God. Just like the government does not represent WeThePeople right now - or none of us would be here. Religion is an interpretation of God's teachings that is the root of most of the worlds problems, IMO. Ditto that for government in USA
The abuse of a good thing does not justify its abolishment. Men abuse everything if they can. Of cause the teachings of the one and true God are included. But this does not abolish learning from the one and true God that created heaven and earth. It is simply impossible that there can be more than one Gods who all created this earth by themselves. No religion has someone like Jesus Christ but the Christian Religion. I mean a Jesus Christ, who was a public figure did undisputable miracles. Did in front of autorities and public and was risen from the dead and be seen by more than 500 people. With all this God puts His seal on Jesus Christ and tells us that He will be the judge who will judge us once dead. Please tell me what other proove you need to see the distinct role of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. I am sorry but your remarks come from a lack of knoledge about the facts of the different religions and their prophets because religion must have a prophet who has heard or seen God. Otherwise he is in no postiion to say anything. But what prophet can be compared with Jesus Christ in miracles, wisdom, love, success and that he was raised from the dead and seen by over 500 people?
I have to admit, in terms of religion, I am a bit ignorant. My issue is believing a book written and interpreted by man, who does abuse everything. Why should I believe some other humans interpretation of God or Jesus? I have to assume they have other motives. I could see it now "Jesus didn't actually say that, but it is the right thing, we should add it anyway..". Jesus sounds like a swell guy by most interpretations I've read. And even if he didn't perform miracles, I'd want him as a neighbor. But, religion is an instrument of man and behind a lot of hate, wars, and misunderstandings in the world. Have you ever researched living in Utah if you are not a Mormon? What about the persecution of Muslims in certain parts of America? Jews, all over? Christians in Egypt and China? Non-believers, such as myself? All these issues are born from different belief's in different religions, as well as ignorance and fear. If there is a God and he showed his face, and said "let all religions be gone" - imagine what the world would be like! People everywhere want the same basic thing: to survive and provide for their family, and have some fun along the way. Religion and governments have drawn un-needed boundaries that keep us from that.
I don't want to be completely negative to win this argument. Most religious people I know are good people who try to do good things. I do recognize that, by the way.
The reason for so many religions and the abuse of it ist that. Every person can see from creation that there is a God. Next to this basic light there is the conscience everybody has as well. But instead of thanking God for the blessings humans fall away AND make their idols. Some come up with invented Gods others make themselves to God by setting themselves up for being the judge and lawgiver apart from God. This of cousre leads to all kinds of unrighteousness. But the true God is good without flaw and just. Our duty is to come back to Him, which was made easy by Jesus Christ. Because in Him we can see God. He is one with Him. Through the sacifice of Jesus God is able to forgive us our sins. And we accept the Gospel He will. Then He sends His Holy Spirit and this way God dwells with us. We get online with God, who we have left before and made the idols. After I read the Bible from beginning to end I was convinced that it is the Word coming from the one and only God. Unless you read it you cannot understand. Let say you deny that there is Austria. I happen to live in Germany and visited Austria a couple of times. So the best way to be convinced that there is Austira is visiting it.
And for the record, you have missed my point. I am not denying or admitting to the existence of God. I am arguing that the existing of religion and it's interpretation of God, if there is one, is flawed.
Good point. It's not an easy read, however. Honestly, I have a hard time believing anything I can't see. I want there to be something, a greater good, a higher power if you will. Just have a really hard time seeing it. Despite that, I am a good person, good to my neighbors, and care about people in general (religious or not). BTW, Germany is a beautiful country, as is Austria ;-)
The latest thought I had is remembering what I wrote in the post above. The love of money is a root of all evil. So I believe that the bad that is done in the name of religion is probably mostly based on the love on money or riches. Take the abuse that happened in the time of Martin Luther: salvation was sold for money by the church of Rome. Preachers preach whatever they think distort the Word of God not because they want to be persecuted but if they can make money out of it. So they adapt the partly tough teachings about righteous to a version that the people like to hear. The true teachings of God are tought for us because they are pure and right and people do not do what is right. WIsdom says: Who can say that he has cleansed his heart and is free of sin? If you happen to come to Germany drop by and I invite you drink a beer because I live in the biggest hops growing area of the world in Bavaria.
Jesus didn't even have a place to live. He welcomed everybody back with open arms no matter what their background was. He hated legalism, he hung with the poor, he is fair and good. Nobody should disparage Him on anything.
You are right. And because of His grace, humilty and wisdom what you have not mentioned we should learn from Him to get out of the mess we are in. We got in this mess because we thought we know it better and don't need Him.
Jesus would say to submit to your government, also befor you bring the holy name of Jesus into a stupid conversation like this READ YOUR BIBLE. i have looked all though this and have not seen one Bible verse.
Jesus would say that we are to submit to our governmint, read the bible befor you bring Jesus into the conversation.
I do not understand what you mean, because I cannot see anything rebellious in my thoughts against the government of the USA. Please be more specific so I can reply. And please tell me whether the government has to submit to Jesus Christ according to Psalm 2?
1 Why do the nations conspire and the peoples plot in vain?
2 The kings of the earth rise up and the rulers band together against the Lord and against his anointed, saying,
3 "Let us break their chains and throw off their shackles."
4 The One enthroned in heaven laughs; the Lord scoffs at them.
5 He rebukes them in his anger and terrifies them in his wrath, saying,
6 "I have installed my king on Zion, my holy mountain."
7 I will proclaim the Lord's decree: He said to me, "You are my son; today I have become your father.
8 Ask me, and I will make the nations your inheritance, the ends of the earth your possession.
9 You will break them with a rod of iront; you will dash them to pieces like pottery."
10 Therefore, you kings, be wise; be warned, you rulers of the earth.
11 Serve the Lord with fear and celebrate his rule with trembling.
12 Kiss his son, or he will be angry and your way will lead to your destruction, for his wrath can flare up in a moment. Blessed are all who take refuge in him.
what do you think about the "seperation of church and state"
If God was not ruling over nations and if the Gospel would be called the Gospel of a personal relationship I would go with it. But since the gospel is called the Gospel of the kingdom of God and since God does rule over nations as much as individuals I would deny my God if would throw Him out of government. In fact Psalm 2 is all about the fact that the authorites want to get rid of Him and His laws. God is the hope of the poor and the once fogotten. I have not seen ANY society which would live in righteousness and love. The poor has no friend. But God hears him and I am so happy to know about God's prophecies that He will set up a just society with just rulers who do not forget about the poor. I can see it coming. The time of separation of state and the advocate of the poor will have an end.
thats true
Thanks. Do you think God is a perfect ruler?
yaaa well do you????
Yes and I tell you why. He alone has the infinite wisdom that can never be reached by humans. Therefore is if folly to exculde Him from a forum like this where the object is and should be to find wisdom in what is best to do. Have you heard of Salomon?
ok thats true
Do you think that God's wisdom about politics and the economy surpasses the wisdom of humans by far?
are you kathlik
If Christians as a political body wish to support the occupation in its calls to end the corrupt corporate state, I as a secular agnostic and rational humanist, welcome them. But on condition that they at no time attempt to co-opt or control the message.
Should we as a movement be successful in combating the excessive influences of corporate multinationals and campaign financiers, we may amongst eachother in a democratic and dialectical format, argue our points and specific beliefs to death. Should Evangelical Christian Dominionists, or ardent Marxist Communists or Libertarian minimalists succeed in gaining the trust of the people after this first step, then so it will be. I doubt any have the popular support to create an orthodox nation under their one vision, but for right now, we have a common goal.
http://occupywallst.org/forum/the-central-message-we-need/
I agree that there is common goal but what if it is achieved? Then each one will live by his own standards and morals and exploitation of the poor will start all over again.
No, we as a nation, will vote our consciences and values and beliefs with politicians that truly believe in things, rather than those who can simply raise the money to get elected.
I will oppose your Christian based ideology when the time comes, but for now, we have a common goal. In my opinion, the best way to achieve it is explained here. http://occupywallst.org/forum/the-central-message-we-need/
I read the post. When you are sick it ok to do something against the symptoms but if you do not dure the root, the sysmptoms will come again. Do you not agree that the root of all this selfish behavior is a lock of love. In the end a human will do whatever is on hi heart. If he loves himself more than others he will live it out according to the possibilties he has. It is true than a campagin finance reform with cut on on some possiblities but history shows that humans are smart to find new ones. Without a stimulus of love so to say the problem will NOT be solved in the long run. Therefor God has provided a stimulus of love. It is up to us to look at it.
To me, Occupy Wall Street represents unity and freedom. I hope to attain freedom when there is a separation of money from state, and when the next generation of mankind becomes more valuable than a bank's life. I believe these are fair goals.
Please, keep religion out of government. There are many different belief systems. At the end of the day all we have to do is survive. We must all be our own Messiah. We must each work to make this world a better place.
I'm "Jewish," that's my lineage, though I understand that every form of life shares one common God. We are all one. Jesus was a prophet, we can't expect that he's going to defy the laws of nature and come back to rid the world of it's problems. We must each work to rid the world of its problems.
I admire your tenacity, and I wish you the best of luck finding peace within yourself.
Peace, Love, and Unity.
Thank you for your kind wishes. I wish you the same. The reason why I can not leave Jesus out, is because according to my experience and my knowledge of history it won't work for humans to change themselves. So I hope for the prophecy given to your people that God will send a Messiah as promised in Isaiah. Now I believe as you know that it is Jesus whom God has not only set on the throne of David but extended His Lordship to the unworthy world which is also prophecied by your prophets. God has delivered your people out of slavery from Egypt without them fighting the soldiers. Please consider the history of your people and see the power of God to help the opressed. I am an unworthy German who is part of a people that did atrocities to your people. But I believe in the grace of God who send Jesus to die for our sins so we can start a new life with a new spirit. This is my hope. The promise God gave your people and extended it to the world that He will make a new convenant and write His law in the hearts and minds of people. This way we can live in peace with each other.
This is a revolutionary moment. Many great leaders will emerge from the OWS movement. I understand, and respect your position. Perhaps you could reconsider preaching the second coming of Jesus in this forum, as it adds very little to the OWS movement.
Only a request, you do what your heart tells you.
Please listen to this one thought. Let us look into history to a time when a international oppressive power was broken. 500 years ago the church of Rome controlled many countries. What was a major source of their power? A lie that God acts through them and they can sell salvation for money. The power was that the people and authorities believed it. Martin Luther exposed this lie and set great parts of Europe free from the power of the church of Rome. Why do I say it. Because nowadays I see similarities. WallSt and politicians make us believe that our well being depends on WallSt and Co. The power they have is this lie. But what is the truth? Can Communism or socialism replace WallSt. Let me tell as someone who lives in Europe, things don't look much better over here. The truth is that God alone is the root source of a sound economy. He can turn a prosperous country into a desert (which has started in the US) and a desert into a prosperous country. The interlectual elite is telling the people that they are the source of prosperity and demand their "fair" share. If you want to break the power of WallSt you must succeed to proove that are not the source of prosperity. As I said communism has failed, socialism has failed or is failing. It is the Kingdom of God - also in the economical and political realm.
I agree with you that economies don't work when they are governed by those without reverence to a higher being. My take on the situation is that preaching salvation through Jesus will only create another situation similar to the church of Rome. So many people with such a firm belief system; you believe that you will be saved by a second-coming of a great prophet. Coming from someone who understands the basis to all religions, this is a dangerous idea to spread. It's de-motivational. Why would we as a society work to find peace, love, and unity if we were all under the impression that the second-coming will bring salvation.
You're passionate. You understand the cause for which you fight. Apply the positive energy outside of your belief system so that the whole world can understand what it is that you fight for.
I understand that most Americans I know believe that with the second coming of Christ He will heal the world. I tend to believe in the second coming but after the so called millenium, the golden age of mankind prophecied by the prophet Isaiah and John. I am a lot influenced by a countryman of yours Johnathan Edwards who live a couple hundred years ago and he assumed that this golden age would actually come pretty much in our lifetime. No I wait for Gospel of Kingdom of God to spread throughout the world and that by faith people will come God and be taught by the Word. Wouldn't you want to see a golden age here on earth?
I would love to. That's why I believe that everyone should get past their personal beliefs, hopes, and dreams in order to build a golden age here on earth. There's no time to wait; we must each strive to build a more perfect union.
You have to take into consideration the environment which you have been exposed to. You say that "most Americans [you] know believe that with the second coming of Christ He will heal the world." Take into consideration because of your deep belief system, you might not have taken enough time to learn about other belief systems and what they hope to bring to the world. For example, you can connect Judaism to Christianity...where does Hindu fit in? Islam? These religions are practiced by millions of people - THEY ARE NOT WRONG. You are not wrong either. We are all right.
But don't forget the sad reality of our hearts. We have at times good intentions but then we end up doing bad things we are ashamed of. According to my experience and a look into history we need help from outside. The heart of man is too bad. Who can say that he has cleansed his heart and free of sin?
Can't disagree with that...our wake up call is starting to grumble. It started on Wall St. It will end in DC. Many will suffer. It's abundantly clear. These protests will lead to violence. But violence is exactly what we need to rid the world of it's sins. Every action has an equal and opposite reaction. All negativity in the coming days will be replicated by years, decades, eternity of prosperity and collective unity.
No - I am no prophet. I am a mere mortal. We are all mortal beings.
Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe the world is going to hell. But why would I preach that? That doesn't get us anywhere.
How about a very different approach. Overcome evil with good. Jesus endured the evil people did to Him and started a new force in this world. He started with loving His enemies. He prayed for the very people that abused Him and killed Him. Can you see the effect. Look at this behavior. He is willing to reconcile with all of us no matter what evil we said against him or done to Him. This is the hope of the world. This spirit we need. Look at Martin Luther King. He did not pay back the evil he received. He waited for God to bring the change. I do not say that we are idle. Martin Luther King was not idle either. But the spirit we can see clearly in the life of Jesus is what we need.
I'm trying to find the inner peace to love my enemies; it's quite a difficult task not only to believe, but also to practice.
It is much easier when we realize that God is forgiving us. I am not sure now what you know about the Gospel or whether you already believe. But the Gospel is that God has loved us first, send His son to die for all our shortcomings and unrighteousness we have committed. He calls to turn to HIm and receive His forgivness and love. A love that never ends. Love does not keep a record of wrongs. Love will never cease. I pray that you see clearly or clearly the love of God and then it will be easier to love your enemies.
I'm familiar with the New Testament, that's it. I don't know enough about the Gospel to argue it's message, but I appreciate your perspective. Question about this second coming - do you believe that one day God will send the soul of Jesus to earth, or that this soul will be reborn into a mere mortal to carry out whatever must be done?
I believe that like a catapillar changes to a butterfly Jesus will come back in glory at the very end of time after the millenium which is a thousand years of peace on earth. In this time He will teach the peoples through the Holy Spirit just as He does right now. It is the spirit of truth.
Lols, why not ask another bastard child about OWS?
If someone hurts me I have a reason to be angry. Maybe there is a misunderstanding? What did God do to you that you say that?
end bush tax cuts , rebuild America bridges and roads , invest in middle class not banking class thats the occupy wall street message.
I don't think that will change enough to free the poor.
but we do nothing and get labeled stupid with no clear message
What do think of the measures I wrote about above? Do you think they would bring a fundamental change?
not in this movement your heart is good and right but what your saying is why the media assumes that we no clear message thats why I say push congress to end bush tax cuts , rebuild America bridges and roads , invest in middle class not banking class thats the occupy wall street message
But isn't it wise to seize the moment. We do not know how big this will become. It is reaching other countries and continents already. Here in Germany where I life there will be a OccupyFrankfurt rally. If it becomes a huge force, wouldn't it be better to ask for fundamental lasting changes?
the moment has been seized the longer we wait the more time we waste on no ideas republicans are drawing up a counter plan or to place spies inside the movement that gives no clear message but just to get money out, we need to look at what we can do to change now and long term thats why for right now push congress to end bush tax cuts , rebuild America bridges and roads , invest in middle class not banking class thats the occupy wall street message
It is true that you are seizing the moment already. You have started a discussion. But living in Europa where there were 99% percent movements in the communist countries like Check Republic and Germany I learned that success is not solely up to the people The people in the Czeck Republic were run over by tanks. The people in East Germany were not and gain ed freedom .DO you know that the location of the protests in East Germany was a church. The protest were held on Monday? Why at this time why at this place. The reason is and you can look it up on wikipedia that a group of people prayed for this very thing to happen for some years on Monday in that church.
so do you support ows
Yes I support it by sharing the gift God has given me, which is a very small amount of wisdom. But I hope it is enough to show that God is on the side of the oppressed and willing to help overcome evil with good.
so what are we arguing over
I hope we don't argue in a bad sense. We exchange thoughts which is good. As wisdom says: As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.
true I digress
Do you have the faith that God brings justice to His people who cry day and night to Him?
yes Im catholic
So let us seek God to bring justice to the poor and oppressed who wait on him. And let us pray that all others who do not wait on Him find Him.
amen
I LOVE THIS!!!! THANK YOU SO MUCH!!! IM SORRY ABOUT THE NEGATIVE COMMENTS! YOU ARE NOT ALONE MATTHIAS! May god still give you patience to respond to the hate comment with LOVE and peace and remove any hardship that might incite your heart!!! Peace brother
Thank you so much, May God bless you
he would say rock on!!
Not that easy, I am afraid. History shows that revolutions or fundamental changes like we had in Germany with the peaceful reunification had the same problems that people with political or economical power forget about the cause of the poor in different degrees.
You all are great! I feel the only way we can get back on safe financial footing again is to close the Enron Loophole for oil speculators and bring back The Glass-Steagall Act of 1933, which prevented the current banking and insurance scams/loopholes. After all, it worked great until late 90's when Congress through it out. Since then, like prior to 1933, we are experiencing what out country went though then, total Wall Street greed. Cheers to all that are involved! Jim
What does the act specifically do?
Thanks! Here's a summary: http://www.investopedia.com/articles/03/071603.asp#axzz1aPEc3wXj
Plus, check this out on Enron Loopholes:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zbdtTGYQBMU&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PNp0y0SjOkY&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-kExdTgNZA&feature=channel
Religion. The characteristically devisive hurdle this movement could succumb to.
Why do you think so?
It still isn't quite socially acceptable to be an atheist in America.
The majority of TV-watchers and voters have been groomed into conflating political legimacy with subscribing to monotheism, so, when it comes to OWS trying to decide their stance on the matter it will undoubtedly be an overtly liberal conclusion. I don't think religion should at any stage become a serious facet of OWS, or even one that is concentrated on for a moment too long.
We are all religious. Some of us are monotheistic as you say. Others are secular humanists and worship the evolution of man. Some are environmentalists. Some worship material things. Some worship sex. I've even heard some proudly proclaim: He who dies with the most toys wins. Everyone attempts to boil the meaning of life into some set of principles, i.e. religion.
Here is a definition of religion: a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.
In what do you believe?
Yeah, I agree. You missed out the big one: science
Science isn't a religion
Matthew 19:24
"Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."
AMEN
Please note that this is a strong way forward to get to the true root of the OWS issues along with Occupy the Fed, Pentagon, WH, etc....
http://cafr1.com/ProtestWallStreet.html
A root is the refusal on the side of the government to obey Christ and His laws protecting the poor.
Matthias that is a valid point, but when we get to the financial root there are different sides to it...namaste!
My belief is we will get to the root for sure. I jus do nott know the time. But it is the work of Jesus to destroy all the works of the devil and serving riches instead of God is for sure one of it.
He would've probably walked right past all of it...
I think he would be marching in the front line.
Why do you think that? Do you think he is not interested in what is on the peoples hearts and minds?
I don't think that at all... Not everyone shares the same beliefs, though. Bringing religion up in this might prevent progress here, in my opinion.
Progress to what? Same abuse of power like in the last thusands of years?
Religion is a personal choice, and does not enter into this conversation, with all due respect. Yes, we should all live with, "Do unto others, as you would have them do unto you." But it does not belong in this conversation, at least from my point of view. Too many peole have been and still are (Egypt just yesterday) killed in the name of religion.
First of all how many people have been killed by non Christians. Second of all if people truley believe in the teaching of Christ they do not kill but turn the other cheek. And last but not least. History shows that without Christ ALL forms of government fail.
give unto Caesar that which is Caesar's
The things of this world are not for salvation. Let your politics be your politics and your religion be your religion. To mix the two is a disservice to both.
That said, you make some valid points about the message of Christianity.
The idea of separation of Christ and state is also part of the justification of people abusing their economical or political power and not obeying the laws that protect the poor. Jesus is the only one fully ruling to protect the poor. As long as Chist does not rule politically there will not be righteousness for the poor. Does History not show that?
But Christianity is not Christ, and it cannot be Christ. The more men take the name of Christ as their own, the more horrors they commit, and the less Christ-like they behave. Does History not show that?
Keep him in you heart and in your actions, but if you put his name in your politics then you create an idol, an object of worship that is not him. Then you will defend your politics as if they were God. Is that not the very thing that is happening with the extreme right at this very point in history? Isn't the lesson here that the only God is God, and that to pretend politics are God can only ever be a disservice to God. For who among us truly knows his face, his voice, and his will? Are you a prophet, am I? It is arrogance for any man to be so bold as to think his knowledge of God is sufficient that he can shape a society in God's image and in God's name. Not one man alive today can speak in God's name.
So keep him in your heart and in your actions, but not in your politics.
The shows that Christ was abused in the political arena and is abused. I am with you on that. But the only times in history when goevernment worked was when the authorities yieleded to the word of God. When has there ever been a government that was on the side of the poor that did do what you say?
In order to have a frame of reference to answer your question I have to ask the opposite, when has there been a government that was on the side of the poor that did what you say?
The only governments that I can think of that were on the side of the poor are socialist societies, which exist on a foundation of Marxist thought which is fundamentally non-theistic and arguably atheistic. Some of those experiments were miserable failures and served the poor quite poorly, several were even lies that served only the perpetrators, but some socialist movements have met varying degrees of success in serving the interests and needs of the poor.
The country of Judah had some Kings how did yield to the law of God. The most famous is Salomo, who has well known all over the world. How come, because he had wisdom beyond any other politician. But this shows the problem with keeping religion out of politics. Do people today study Salomo, who was a statesman with unparalleled success economically.
My understanding of Jewish scholarship is that the people of Israel wanted a king to emulate the people of other nations, not by God's will. God loved his chosen people so he allowed them to have a king, but the history of the kings of Israel and Judea is one of repeated turnings from God. Solomon himself was an idol worshiper by the end of his reign. The histories show, and Jewish scholars seem to agree with this notion, that it is the people who should follow God, and when they set a King above them in God's name that King will always turn from God and lead them down the wrong path, the path to destruction. The fact that Solomon turned to idol worship at the end of his reign shows that even the wisest man will fall under the weight of self-righteousness. Solomon is the perfect example of my point. Jesus came and preached that the things of this world are the things of this world, and that the things of God are the things of God. We can have governments and politics, but it is foolish to ever think that they exist in the name of God. Only God exists in the name of God, and anyone who takes his name as a mantle of power will walk the path of corruption.
The problem with mankind is that their hearts are evil and they are not obeying the law written in stone. Therefore God has made a new covenenant, that He will wirte His law into the hearts and minds by His Holy Spirit, whom all received who repent and obey Christ. This will reach governments as well, as it is propecied in Isaiah and Revelation.
If I'm not mistaken (and I'm no biblical scholar) it will only happen after Jesus comes again, which even he does not know the time or date. So unless you've got the inside scoop, I maintain my point.
That is the modern view. It was not so among American scholars a couple huinderd years ago. But don't you see that this modern view can excuse the govenrments to do what is right?
Absolutely, and every good Christian should stand for what is good and should stand for the poor, but to claim righteousness is the way down the wrong path. In other words, if you call yourself a Christian in your private life, fantastic. If you follow the principles of Christ in your public life, fantastic, and we need more of it. But if you call your movement, your party, your candidate, or your politics Christian, then you go too far. You are trying to claim that which is Caesar's in the name of God, and only God can do that. The name Christian needs to be taken back from the extreme right, but not in the name of the left. It needs to be taken back in the name of God, so that we don't dirty his name with our petty earthly squabbles. So that we don't pretend we are so great as to bear the mantle of God as the arrogant kings our nation rejected did.
Please listen to the following thought. RIghteous is not an abitraty set of rules that is made up in a religion. Regiousness is an object logical set of rule that is flawless. God happens to have most wisdom and the purest heart so He alone can set up this perfect set. If you exclude God's religion and wisdom you exclude perfect righteusness, which we have experienced over the centuries.
I've been thinking about it, and this is what I've come up with. If you say that God is on your side and you are going to follow his message, then great, more power too you. The problem with making a political movement a Christian movement is that it will inevitable lead to the claim that the movement is on God's side, and that goes too far. As soon as you say that you are on God's side you claim to have definitive and absolute knowledge of what god is, what his side is, what he wants for this world, etc. You don't, I don't, no person does. That is where corruption enters things, when we lose our humility, forget our frailties, and believe that we act in the name of God. Faith corrupts politics and politics corrupt faith. This will always become the case because as soon as you mix the two they become muddled, faith seeps into politics and we start to worship our ideology instead of having the knowledge-less faith in a God that we can never comprehend. That is my word of caution.
You are right that knowledge puffs up and you are in danger of becoming proud what God hates. And wisdom says: Whoever thinks that he is wise: there is more for a foll than for him. But true wisdom from God makes you humble and very well aware of your infirmities. A German politician met a South American dictor once and he told him that he should be aware of the fact that there is someone higher in charge. So true knowledge of God makes you humble.
I am sick and tired of people using God to enslave people. I am sick of folks using religion to get elected to office!
I am sick and tired of people using God to enslave people. I am sick of folks using religion to get elected to office!
Wo is not if something good is abused.
Even if you don't agree with their comments on religion, don't bash them. This country should be FREE to decide who and how you wish to worship, if at all. I for one am glad to see this group is so DIVERSE! Those who wish us to fail, think we are godless and show no respect to the freedom to choose faith. Do not let this difference of religious beliefs divide us, let them be a source strength.
Even Ghandi read the teachings from Jesus.
Separation of Church and State is imperative to our success, but don't silence someone because they choose faith.
"All challenges and differences should be embraced, despite the sting of their thorns; the blossum of new beginnings resonates a new season of change, and we emerge as a butterfly who has just sprouted their wings."
Democracies which are based o your principles are failing because theymake the people to the head on not Jesus Christ. There will come a time when the people will have eyes to see that Jesus is the KIng of Kings.
You are generalizing. How do you know what my personal faith and beliefs are if you do not even know me? The instant any government tries to uphold 1 religion or none, we have already failed. Do you want US to become China, the country who occupies Nepal and killed innocent women, children, and monks in the face of communism? Do you want US to become Iraq and create unjust laws to criminalize peoples basic actions? No. Our founding fathers came here to ESCAPE religious creed and domination, and people died on ships coming here on the HOPE that they could serve their faith without any restraint. Faith is personal, and it should be kept that way. If you want communion with other believers of your faith, that is what the Church was created for, do not judge what you do not know.
God is the only one who takes care of the poor and only this authority which rules in His spirit will do the same. The Founding Fathers justified slavery and partly kept slaves themselves.
We also abolished slavery and segregation through a civil rights movement similar to this one. A new slavery system of debt has overgrown our culture, and that's what this movement is about... moving forward, leaving old values of greed and injustice behind, and replacing them with respect and honesty.
Martin Luther King was - to my knowledge driven by the Holy Spirit - he had a vision from God. Slavery was ended by bloody war.
All I'm saying, is don't judge what do you not know... only God sees the heart of each man and woman. Quit judging and preaching and dividing... history proves that religion and government must ALWAYS been clearly defined and separated... you failed to respond to China's occupation of Nepal or the restrictions under Islamic law... go to those countries if you want to define religion specifically within a governing system.
Look as I said religion has been abused as all other things for personal gain. The biggest enemies were of Jesus were the pharesees, self righteous people. But there will be time when people will obey Christ as rulers and govern justly. You might hate that thought but this will be the true hope of this world.
We will have to agree to disagree... that doesn't mean I don't agree or understand what you are saying specifically to your faith or belief system, It just means in my opinion religion and government don't mix. Look at corruption here just by adding money into government, can you imagine how things could drastically change with a radical fundamentalist in power? No longer a democracy then...
Ok lets do that. May God bless you.
Jesus was a troublemaker of his time. Upsetting the established religions and government. I agree it is wise for government and religion to stay separate.
Seperatoin of government and Christ means just another system that will serve the rich on the backs of the poor. Show me just one system in history where this wasn#t the case
so lets all kill each other in the name of god and go live in the heavenly kingdom. Oh wait thou shalt not kill, oh crap now what are we gonna do???
Well shit. With Jesus on our side I reckon we can't lose.
Yeah, if you are on His side.
Now tell me one fact that proves that I am deluded. SInce you say you are not you must have knowledge of facts I do not have.
Logic,Science,Evolution and other such dirty words.
Please be specific Evolution is no proof because it contradicts the basic of all sicence, mathematics. Probablity proofs evolution to be absurd.
I am a basket case I can explain nothing however if you head to The Acropolis and I fear that is over The Tappen Zee bridge and ask for a guy called Cecrops he will explain everything.
Now who do you want to believe and base your whole future on. Cecrops or Jesus Christ who has perfromed mirales preached righteousness, loved to people, died and was raised from the dead?
Tell you a story I lived under a bridge in Paris for 2 years as the woman I thought I would grow old with took every penny I had and left me to die on the streets. I know homelessness inside out in Paris you will find so very few Jews or Muslims on the streets of Paris as they look after each other Christians on the whole just talk crap. I was woken up one morning at 6.30 am by a fool that handed me a piece of paper thought he was handing me a check it was a tract from the bible telling me Jesus loves me. FOOLS.
I am sorry that you have such bad experience. I can tell just the opposite, that when was completely out of money a Christian brother was helping us out although he belonged to he poorest of poor in Germany, where I live. I was an African who was seeking asylum.
Look at what Christians have done to Africa people that lived in harmony with the planet. The White Man arrived with Jesus. I know a part of Paris lot of African people with very little but they are all so happy. I am 46 only ever met 1 real christian in my life she risked her life to help children in the Balkans.
The pharasees, who where the religious at Jesus time where His fiercest enemies. It is evil to abuse power and it is worse to do it in the name of Jesus. Therefore Jesus tells them that they will receive an even greater condemnation.
We have the deluded with their Jesus Drivel how sad the human race cannot evolve from such drivel. I wonder anybody real out there of just a bunch of kids that want a party who's musings are interpolated with the deluded with their Jesus Drivel. For if anybody real is out there and they know dirty words like Social Justice they should be morally outraged that an evil woman stole from charity. WWW.JUSTICEFORTHECHILDREN.ORG CHRIS@CHRISHEPBURN.COM
Truth is we have deluded people who learn nothing from history that governments are not serving the poor as they should but God will make an end to that.
All gov's are self serving you say you are in Germany is Merkel any better than Honecker. All self serving care about nothing but themselves. In France a bunch of buffoons call themselves socialists Jean Juares would laugh at them self serving playing at being the voice of the people. in The USA that disgusting man Obama the human race is systemically dysfunctional. I would rather be a Lesbian Dolphin
Angela Merkel is better than Honecker. Compared with other politicians she is bettr than most in my view. SHe has a big advantage. She grew up being among the oppressed because she grew up in East Germany. Her father was Lutheran minister and the church was bullied. Please consider this. We do not have power and therefore we can not be guilty of the same things. But if we had the same power we might be worse. If we are honest we see in our lifes as well that we DO not constantly love our neightbor as ourselves and seek personal advantages. Therefore I came to the conviction that we need help from outside of us humans from a pure source. That is why I refer to Jesus who can send the Holy Spirit. There is hope for living soul because God is gracious and willing to give new life to anyone and any society that comes to him and His Son Jesus Christ. Be hopeful and ask God to help you.
nice speach but we have now 2000 years of wars behind us and most of them arise from religion I respect your belief but do not share your oppinion
The Kingdom of God is not in what name people act but in what spirit. If they act in the came of religion or even Christ like the pope in the time of Martin Luther but persue personal financial gain they are brothers of WallSt.
he would tell you that you are uneducated and need to wake up!!!!
he would tell you that you are uneducated and need to wake up!!!!
What makes you think that?
Real successes are about united fronts and complete collaboration..we can help each other we have in the past....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin_Blockade
The Berlin Airlift supplied approx 2 million people with food...over the course of 15 months. Why us the US gov so inept?
What do you mean by that?
You know what, if we've got to assemble and army of Christians to help End the Fed than so be it. We could use the help.
He would say be good to each other, help each other...bond as one....the masses who do good are more powerful than any evil. Stand together with love, help your brother, promote good if this requires change then change to unite the people in brotherhood and love. Moses united people and led them with strength of love and faith in god. Wall street is not uniting...wall street must change...
I like it. What makes you think that?
After he saw the folks in Atlanta, Jesus would have said "Kill them now, there is no saving them"
Jesus wants people to repent and live
Jesus would say "What is Wall Street? I've been dead for 2000 years."
God is a god of the living and not the dead.
Haha best comment on here.
He'd be out there leading the march, I'd guess.
My knowledge of Jesus is only limited. Why do you think so?
For one thing, since he was Jewish, I imagine as soon as he saw that big bronze bull on Wall Street, Jesus would have probably seen the similarities to the story of Moses coming down from Mt. Sinai with the ten commandments only to find the children of Israel worshiping a golden calf, an idol they'd made in his absence. But I only imagine. Nobody can really say. When Christians ask themselves "what would Jesus do", we try to apply his teachings to life in our contemporary world. The story of him driving the moneychangers out of the temple, his command to help the poor and feed the hungry would indicate to me Jesus would be on the side of the oppressed, not the oppressors. But anyone unfamiliar with the New Testament, would have no way of speculating what he'd do. We only know about Jesus what we've read. For non-believers, Jesus is only a character in a book. Like Tom Joad in John Steinbeck's "The Grapes of Wrath". Another character that though, only fictional, I look up to for an example of how to live my life. If a religion had been built around that book and its believers asked themselves "what would Tom Joad do" if he saw the demonstrations on Wall Street, I'd think about these words. "I'll be all around in the dark - I'll be everywhere. Wherever you can look - wherever there's a fight, so hungry people can eat, I'll be there. Wherever there's a cop beatin' up a guy, I'll be there. I'll be in the way guys yell when they're mad. I'll be in the way kids laugh when they're hungry and they know supper's ready, and when the people are eatin' the stuff they raise and livin' in the houses they build - I'll be there, too. " Again, I can only imagine, but I don't think Tom would be on the side of the oppressors either. But getting back to the golden calf analogy, check out this video I just found on YouTube this morning. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=z5oTWOe06V0
I like the parallel with the golden calf a lot. Thanks
Finally! I was waiting for these nuts to come out!
Tell me who is nuts. Men or God. Who brought us into this mess. Men or God. Who has oppressed the poor for centuries. Men or God? WHo is making money on the backs of the poor. Men or God? Who is abusing power? Men or God? Who is calling unrighteousness law? Men or God?
Men in the name of god! Let us not make OWS about religion. There are enough problems caused by it already. If you let Jesus in, someone else will want to follow some other religion. We have common sense to deal with the current issues. Think about it. Maybe your god gave us brains so we would work out these problems on our own.
DO you not understand that humans abuse everything even the Gospel for their own profit. But this is the very problem. Men without God. ONly God is good. You will get nowhere without a new heart and a new spirit which God offers for all who embrace the Gospel. Your movement will end like all others who have not embraced the Gospel and got born again by the Spirit.
Even Jesus asked his followers, Why is it you call me good? There is only ONE that is good, and that is God.
AMEN
Jesus would say share the bread equally among the people. http://globalcrier.blogspot.com/
AMEN
Jesus wouldn't say anything. He'd sit, love, and heal. Much like Buddhism.
In the Gospel it is written that went from town to town to preach because this was His mission. He was a preacher teaching men the ways of God.
I don't care ! It's not Jesus who's concerning by this problem...It's us!
I am glad that it is the concern of God, Otherwise we would never not get rid of the problem that the rich rule over the poor.
That's what you think about it, don't think instead of God.
I agree that the Bible talks about the mystery Babylon
Yes, I am Christian too. Prepare for Anti-Christ, he is on the verge of making himself known!
He has already.. and the sycophants cheering his name and worshiping his decisions blindly will prove that.. Look no further than Obama.
May God bless you.
Thank-you Brother Matthias, Get ready for the Rapture!
Have you head about Jonathan Edwards and his take on the end times?
No Who is he?
He was a revival preacher in America in the 18th century. He believed that the world has 6000 years turmoil and in the 7th millenium it will have peace. The church will reign without the bodily presence of Jesus. So according to his belief it is now. Maybe be experience the downfall of the Harlot Babylon right now and soon afterwards the fullment of all those prophecies in Isaiah where all the peoples will come to Christ to be taught by Him.
Yes, Sounds like he is talking about the age of Grace and the 1000 yr Millenium that follows. That is Biblical teaching, so he was just preaching the truth. (4,000 yrs + or - of Adam, and 2,000+ yrs of Christ under Grace) The 1000 yr Millenial Reign will be a time of peace. But I disagree as do most theologians do with him, during the 1000 yrs of peace (after wars of Gog and Magog, and Armageddon) we will reign with Jesus on Earth for 1000 yrs. Earth will be re-plenished and cleansed. Satan will be locked away for 1000 yrs. After that, he will be loose again for a "little season", before he is finally defeated
One of my strongest argument against this view is that faith is the instrument of God to build His Kingdom and to sanctify people. The prophecies in Isaiah point at a time when people will be saved and sanctified. WIth Jesus being on earth in person I do not see a way for the Gospel to due its task. What do you think?
He would say STOP THE MONEY CHANGERS!
https://sites.google.com/site/the99percentdeclaration/home/the-steps-to-non-violent-revolution
Why do you think so?
Matthew 21:12
Jesus was a socialist that said give Caesar what is do his.
Jesus was Jesus. All systems must be judged against His view. Is socialism Jesus teaching. No. Is capitalism Jesus teaching. No. What is Jesus teaching? IN the gospels you can read it.
Am I the only one that does not understand the entire passage? Jesus was angry with the tax collector. He was chiding a woman who could not pay a set fee in taxes.. The way they had it set was, for instance $200 per citizen, regardless of how much they earn or have. This set fee was what he was talking about. When asked, he told the collector that the woman paid more than anyone else, because she gave a higher percentage than everyone else. Though she had less money to give, she gave the most. When asked whether or not money was important, he said.. Who's image is on that coin? They said Caesar. He said, then render to Caesar what is Caesar's, and render unto God what is God's... It was not about money, for God cares nothing about how much or little you have. Adonai cares about you giving God his share of faith and devotion. Money is meaningless.
Jesus? Personally, I would be worried about Jesus showing up at the protests. Not for nothing, but if I remember my catechism correctly, if we look to the skies and see Jesus and his flowing white robes, ummm, usually that means that the trumpets have sounded and Armageddon has come.
OTT, I would probably ask Jesus if he could multiply the supply kitty at the park as a huge favor.
Now seriously, do you believe that Jesus has resurrected and is alive or not?
Yeshua ben Josef, better known as Jesus the Nazarene or Jesus Christ, died over 2,000 years ago. His teachings, however, have lived on centuries after him and frankly I think that the fools who are the 1% should pay attention to what he had to say about the wealthy that refused to help the poor. They wont like it.
The "rich" you speak of give more back to society than you could ever imagine. When taxes go down donations go up. Simple correlation. And no one on this forum can speak for Jesus. Why eve try and think about what he might say? Just understand that your protests are pointless. Unless you just wanted to be on tv. Then it did the trick. Your demands are ridiculous, childish, and not thought out. They seem to be all about the "me" culture that has risen up in this once great country. Forget about yourself for once and look out upon your neighbor and see what he needs. If everyone did this life would be much easier. Stop. Take a breath. And look in a mirror. Look long and hard. You are your own worst enemy. You have made yourself a slave. Free yourself.
I fully agree that the %1 should take the warning of Jesus seriously because He said. Woe to you rich because you have had your reward and also that it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of the needle than for a rich man to enter heaven. But we must watch out as well that we make it.
end bush tax cuts , rebuild America bridges and roads , invest in middle class not banking class thats the occupy wall street message.
this will not get you out. Because as long as you can take interest, debts are not released the rich will get richer. DO you know the impact of compound interest. If you had brought $1 to the bank in the time of Jesus with 5% interst you would have more than $2.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000 by now
That is true. We need help
When do you think God will help us?
yes we do.
I assume it will be now.
So what will happen now?
If I knew. Maybe a preacher on the internet that is watched by millions.
What ouls his message be?
What is written: That the harlot is fallen.
Will he give a full revelation of who the harlot is? Like Marthin Luther
I think so
I wish he would come this year
Amen
What do you think about the rapture
I think it will not happen before the millenium but afterwards
I think so too. But why do so many people believe that the rapture will come.
It fits into a lukewarm prsoperty gospel where we have a nice luxurious time and before things get rough we will be taken out.
Right. Do you think that September 11 was the beginning of the downfall of the corruption that rules over the governments?
When you read revelation then symbols are used for the downfall of the harlot can be seen in this event. ANd if I look back then I see that the downfall has come to the real economy.
WHich ones?
All people will watch it kings will mourn, merchants will mounrn, within one hour it has been come down they will say
So what do make off it?
I can see that we are right in the biggest revolution of all times when a world that is drung a fallen away from God will get rid of the corrupting powers and then a new age will come, the golden age, the millenium where the nations will seek Jesus and lear from Him and learn who to life in peace and love and righteousness.
So what would next if this is true?
Revelation is talking about a prophet that will pronouce the downfall of the mystery, that has corrupted the world.
You refer to the angel. So you think it is human.
the greek word means: 1) a messenger, envoy, one who is sent, an angel, a messenger from God In chapter 2 JOhn is supposed towrite to angel of the urch of ..., therefore I think it can be a human.
So when will he come?
Maybe he is here already.
How can we know?
It is said he hs great power
Political power?
Jesus worked very hard to bring the gospel of the 'new law' to the world. The question is, with Jesus's love in your heart, what are you called to do to make our world better?
Do to others what you want them do to you. Love your enemies and pray to God that He will bring the rest of the people to love their neigbor as themselves as well, by hearing the Gospel of the love God towards His enemies when His Son Jesus died for the sins of all people. Pray that they hear and repent as well.
While you're doing that, the rest of us will be trying to do what needs to be done, to take back our country from those who have stolen it, and to take back our future from those who robbed us of it. Prayer only works if there's a genuine and honest entity on BOTH side of the line. If you don't know these things, then you're praying to a false "god" you made up for yourself, not the Existing One.
Look I am not promoting prayer only. You are right if you say that actions must go hand in hand with prayer. But action without prayer is not right either.
And you think that the believers among us haven't prayed, precisely, why? Explain how you could possibly know this about us, in 25 words or less. Be sure to include your explanation of why God's words in 1 Samuel 16:7 were wrong, at least in your case.
I did not say that you have not prayed. Sorry if I gave this impression. I made a general statement that actions should go hand in hand with prayer. Of course not all, but the Bible says that justice comes from God and this is what you seek.
Since all good things come from God, you're right about justice. I'll leave it to the theologians to explain why we don't have it, and continue to pray that God will empower us to attain it, while trying to work hard enough to gain it.
Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.
Amen, brother! At my current age (70), I expect to be with our Lord long before there is justice in our world, but I pray for those in our movement who still have their lives in front of them, and ask you to stand with me in that. Tomorrow, I'll be joining the General Assembly of Occupy Colorado Springs; please pray for us, too.
get religion the fuck out of this convo asap
this is EXACTLY what the media wants to focus on, IRRELEVANT BULLSHIT
Amen, Right On, and Be It So!
Wallst is without relition and you want to follow into their footsteps
No, I think you are the one who wants to follow in their footsteps. Prove me wrong: get up off your lazy, self-satisfied, self-righteous butt and DO SOMETHING USEFUL.
Buy the way what are you doing?
Right now? Wasting time. I need to stop doing that, so TTFN.
Good by
shut up!!
was jesus more democrat or republicen
end bush tax cuts , rebuild America bridges and roads , invest in middle class not banking class
Jesus would probably say "short Apple stock!"
No, He would more probably say, "Sell all you have, give the proceeds to the poor, and then come, follow Me." However, that gets us nowhere, because nobody listened when Jesus said that, and nobody has ever listened since then. So as we labor, we'll listen to those that someone DID listen to, such as Martin Luther King, Jr., Nelson Mandela, and/or Mohandas Gandhi.
You are mistaken. There are millions who have listened and there will be a time when the whole world will listen.
Please let's keep religion out of it.
this forum is full of fucking MEDIA WHORES. fuck you matthias. GEt you BULLSHIT GOD horse shit out of here. MORON.
This is exactly what WallSt does and the end of it you fight. WHen will you learn from history that all men without God will abuse power.
Honest of not, you present yourself as a servant of God, so let me ask you, what is your take on Isaiah 3:14-15?
Jesus said to the rich: Woe to you. He said to the pharasees: You will receive a greated condemnation. IN Revelation the end of the corrpt system is described. Make no mistake: God will remember the evil that was done because of unrightous profit in case people do not repent.
You apparently don't want to answer my question about Isaiah 3:14-15, because that scripture authorizes us to be here, doing what we are doing; and you don't want to admit that, because then you would have to help us, not just preach at us and judge us.
I want to answer your question. I do not see that scripture to justify you being out there. But I will give you another scripture that justifes a spiritual revenge on the corrupt powers. Rev 18:5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities. 6Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double. 7How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.
Again I want to say that I am not against you protesting as long as it peaceful. Please don't mistunderstand me.
We're non-violent. The hired thugs of the banksters and the corporados aren't. If you're not against us, then you're on our side, so prove it. Go to the WORKING parts of this forum, look at the problems, and start coming up with solutions or at least ways in which you can help.
where are the working parts? How do I get there?
Let me get back to you on that--I'm still looking!
What happened to free speech, now they are deleting post here, now how can you have a freedom movement if all the people can not have free speech?
You know, I was wondering the same thing, myself. If we don't extend to others--however obnoxious they may be--the same rights and freedoms we are trying to win for ourselves, we will deserve to be defeated--IMO, of course, and YMMV.
end bush tax cuts , rebuild America bridges and roads , invest in middle class not banking class
and then?
hmmm . . .what would jesus say?
I told you I'd be back
My money's on, "Shut up, already, and go do something useful!" Remember your rights--one of them is, "You have the right to be silent."
Welcome back
Bless you my child . . .
Yo!!! . .I'm coming to kick butt and this time I brought Backup
:P
Tell me you didn't bring Silk, or Tong, or the Applebot! Please!
nah . . .just my iPad
Okay, but you know Natural Stupidity beats Artificial Intelligence every time, right?
and how about Artificial stupidity to lul you into a false sense of security before you get zapped by Natural Intelligence
Selling water by the river, much?
you buying?
WHat do you mean?
Don't panic .. just kidding . .Jesus ended up getting crucified because he preached against usury and so it stands to reason, if he returned, he probably has a gripe to settle with bankers
Really are we brining in a religious establishment that has killed billions and has its own bank in Rome into the discussion? If the man existed... This is a big If his words were distorted to control the faith to such a degree that nothing is left but brain washed masses. The original bible was written by the rich and who could not even read hebrew at the time. MAny of the saints and other select few who founded the church were discovered to have mental disorders or were on some form of drugs. Read the rise of religion and the fall of reason.
Now im not saying the spirituality side to this is bad, but when we start to allude to what jesus said... WHo would really know?!! His words were so destroyed and remade over countless times to profit from it we never truly know!!!
I am German and Martin Luther was German as well. He fought the Roman Church and broke its corrupt power by the Word of God, which is siding with the poor.
I have nothing against spirtuality but this person and his views have been profitized and distorted from day 1. I still recommend keeping faith out of the equation. With every overt controlling Government such as Rome there has been other gods or demi gods that have done the same or fought against them. I can name about 1,000 different gods/goddess with the same story as Jesus and then some.
We all die and we all believe something different. In the end we all end up dust. However in this life there are many different paths in believe. Our human nature is to assign what is better.. Thus dont bring religion or faith into this or the enemy will win.
Wow. You are trying to talk reason to a religious person.
im a anthropologist and I am a taoist.. I suppose both in a way tells me I should try to teach. Even if it falls on deaf ears. Its their choice to be open or closed minded.
After all.... Change in inevitable, Growth is optional.
The reason why Rome was corrupt was not because they called themselves Christians but because they did what usually all governments do, - they did not obey Christ but served money. The true choices of government are. Serve money or God in truth. The pharasees were the biggest enemies of Christ.
But you forget they converted to Christianity and still it fell. The standards of the church created from those days were rienforced to this day.
This is your faith and I accept it, however we could debate for years on orginized religion and what one man's views however distorted became.
Thus we should stop brining in religion into this discussion here and now. For every one man there are 100 different faiths across the globe.
Do you know that Constantine the Great converted to Christ before a desisive battle and then he won the battle and freed all Christians from persecution. Don't you want to be freed from the grip of WallSt as well. God can do that as well.
Can He? Will He? He hasn't done it, so I'm betting He either can't or won't. In either case, it's up to us!
His promise is clear. He will bring justice to His elect who call to Him night and day and He will do it speedily. Whether you will achieve the freedom of WallSt speadily needs to be seen.
No, it needs to be worked for, and I'm getting this growing feeling that's not why you're here.
I tell you why I am hear. Because first of all I share your frustration. I have fought my own little protest in the US for many years against corporate greed and the injustice in the financial system in the US when I used to live in your country. But I want to help you guys see the truth behing all this which is more than just WallSt. It is the fight against the Kingdom of God.
He converted on his death bed and stayed pagen his entire life. Its well documented. He only converted at the end at request of his wife. He only changed the offical religion for profit and keep his country from a internal civil war.
But you keep your faith, its not my place to tell you what to follow.. Religion is yours, but keep it to yourself. I am not forcing my views on you and you should not force it on others.
I am talking about the truth which has its own force. You are wrong about your account of Constiantne. Who are your timewitnesses. Mine is Eusebius, who testified that he did become a Christian and His mother was a Christian and the influence behind all this. The story of the baptism on his death bed I do not refute but it was his view of batism but He did do good. The creed of Nice was mediated by him
I find it amusing that such a discussion is to be found here. Even Constantine did practical things, such as pay for the bishops to come to Nicea to stop the schism in the church. Can't we confine ourselves to practical issues without waiting for a miracle? When God sends a boat to save us from the flood while standing on our rooftop, do we inquire whether the man who came to save us is a Christian? Practical things are the issue here, not religious faith.
But you need demands. No interest on debt. Debt release every 7 Years. Redistribution of basic wealth every 50 years. That is practical and would bring the power of Wall St considerably down. Don't you agree?
Did the Israelites ever actually put this into practice?
Yes they did. It depended on the King. Was the King seeking God they did, if not they did not. The interesting thing is that the duration of the captivity was determined by the time they did not do this.
Most scholars would contend they did not and this was a fantasy developed during the Second Temple period.
So who are they paid by. WallSt
Who else?
FInally we agree.:-)
http://occupywallst.org/forum/friends-romans-countrymen-lend-me-your-ears/
What does it say?
[Deleted]
thanks, I forgot
True, you cannot serve both God and money, and although I'm all in favor of taking down today's ineffective and inefficient Top 10% Management Group of Business & Government, there's only one way to do it – by fighting bankers as bankers ourselves, just as Christ said in one of his parables. Consequently, I have posted the Strategic Legal Policies, Organizational Operating Structures, and Tactical Investment Procedures necessary to do this at:
http://getsatisfaction.com/americanselect/topics/on_strategic_legal_policy_organizational_operational_structures_tactical_investment_procedures
Join
http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/StrategicInternationalSystems/
if you want to support a Presidential Candidate Committee at AmericansElect.org in support of the above bank-focused platform.
What is that about?
The link tells you exactly what it's about, so I'd be happy to elaborate further if you have a more specific question,
I am sorry. Here in Germany it is almost 11pm and will got to bed now. May God bless you.
Upset the tables of the moneychangers. Jesus sent his disciples out without money. Jesus said, "U can't serve god & money . . . but the Pharisees who loved money heard this and scoffed." ABOLISH MONEY!
Jesus did upset the money changers
I am not religious in any way, but I do know what Jesus did to the "money changers" in the temple.
The modern "money changers" are the banks. If you are religious right there is your example to follow.
You are right that Jesus drove out the money changers. And maybe OccupyWallSt is this rod He uses right now.
Yes, except that Jesus did it aggresively, and we must prevail peacefully.
If you look into world history you will see that the rod of God can be very harsh. I am German and we Germans did very evil to the Jews. BUt suffered severly for doing so. 6 million German died in the second world war.
Religions and history often do not mix, although often they are the same.
And is we are going to berate Germany over the second world war, how many innocent people have the US, UK and NATO killed, and continue to kill in Iraq, Afghanistan and now Libya in the name of imperialism, strategic position and control over natural resources leaving devasation and misery in their wake? All paid for by the tax payer.
Then again, maybe your rod of God would come in useful for the government and banks.
God does not want sinners to die but repent. If they do not repent they His rod will come. And God is no respected of persons. Whether rich or poor, black or white, man or woman. They will all be jugded according to what they have done.
Well don't hold your breath on the imperial warmongers repenting.
For the record, I do not subscribe to the anthropomorphic deity of religions - the guy in the sky - but that we are All God, and God is and All Are One.
Ergo - we judge ourselves and our experience will reflect that.
Oh - and my "God" Unconditionally Loves Everyone, and is neither vengeful, jealous or capricious.
Bravo! Well Put.
Jesus isn't real, so Jesus doesn't have the power to help. Otherwise he would have helped LONG ago. Don't you think?
Food for thought.
The wise has patience. If He would have helped long ago the Republicans would insist their system is just but now they are proven wrong.
So you mean to tell me, that if I was wise I would wait for Jesus to "help" knowingly he never will? You realize that he has had ample amount of time to help if you want to take into considerations all the things that have happened in the past? If everyone sat on their nuts and didn't act then we would be speaking German or Spanish by now. Think about it. WWII. "DON'T ATTACK GERMANY BECAUSE JESUS WILL SAVE US"
You make me sick.
Maybe you know that I am German. Good example to show that God will act. German resistence tried to kill Hitler. But they failed because the German people were due for judgment and God's timing could not be changed. Hilter was taken out and the Germans were defeated but in God's time. From the time the assassination failed to the end of the war was only one year but during that year as many Germans died as before. God is in control of the outcome of any war. He controls nations as much as indiviuals.
I like how you just twist things around and make it sound like "God" who did the work, all the people who died in the wars, if "God" is as divine and almighty as you say, people wouldn't have to act due to the deity not being there. I can see how a simple minded person or even a child would be brain washed so easily by your cult.
Once you are dead you will agree for sure.
Once I am dead, God will have a lot of 'splainin' to do. Like answer millions of questions all beginning with "Where were You when......."
Men will answer as well when God said: I saw you when you did .. but I was waiting for you to repend, send my Son to give you a chance to start a new life and you did....
He'll have to wait on that until He's answered our questions, because we don't claim to be perfect, and he does; because we don't claim to be all-powerful, all-good, and all-wise, and He does.
Why do you think that God is one who is evil. You walk against WallSt. What has God to do with WallSt. Is guilty for what WallSt does?
Only way we will tell for sure. Regardless, if God is as merciful as everyone claims, I'll repent before I'm dead and I'll be in Heaven. See ya there.
I hope you will not be wrong on the count down. Because of one second missed being not in heaven would be hard to live with.
Jesus has the power to help. This much I know for sure. Why do the people look for help by mortal men, who are corrupt themselves.
Because God isn't helping? Yeah, that works for me!
The Romans and the USA have a lot in common. Most of all. They do not submit to God but rather make money.
What we Jesus say? Leave us alone and let us prosper! It was the Romans whom conquered the Jews, it was not because they were killing them or occupied their lands, it was because the Romans were taxing them to death and enforcing unjust laws against their people. Whom is doing that today is not the rich, it's our Government.
Interst on debt, which is forbidden in the Law of God, is the tax of the economy. Bonuses or fees of lawyers or outreousess medical fees are the taxes of the economy. The law of Christ is whatever you want others do to you do to them. This applies to prices and fees as well. Whatever you want to be paid pay them as well.
As I have been saying, it's not the rich whom are making us poor, it's the Govt using the rich to make themselves wealthy and powerful.
Talking about monarchies I can see a point. But in the USA the president gets a beggars share of what the CEOs are making.
I did head is a myth.
Jesus was seen by over 500 people after his resurrection and His teaching have spread throughout this world as He said. Have you not realized that the word of the carpenter Jesus, that His kingdom will be biggest in the end is on its way to become reality.
How come there is no proving of him. He never wrote anything. We have no statues of him. The most powerful man that ever lived was illiterate? Sounds to fishy to me.
That ignores the biggest question... He was carpenter his whole life. Where the hell are his acts of carpentry?? I would assume god incarnate would take enough pride in his work to build something that will last. I would think the creator of the universe would at least gain a reputation as the best carpenter in the world.
In Rio de Janero there is huge statue. His word is not dead on paper but alive in the hearts of millions of men. Thousands of people are in prison are tortured for His word. His word has survived many cruel attempts to destroy it. But His word is very well alive and will survive.
Yes I agree humanity is doom and perhaps will never rediscover true reality. Reason is a horrible thing to waste.
The wise does everything with reason. But a fool relies on his reason. It foolish not to accept that we humans are so limited that there must be a higher power.
Because if the powers that be admitted to his being real - they would have to OBEY him. If they obey him, they can't bomb innocent children anymore - of course in the name of peace...........
Exactly! There are powers in the world that are beyond our paygrade unless God endorses it.
He'd say "get a haircut. Take a shower, shave, put on deodorant, comb your hair, dress in some decent clothing and go get a job you filthy hippie!"
Kind of like he did in The Great Depression but this time it’s only The Great Recession, so we are lazy bums, pathetic humans who can’t get jobs, has it occurred to you Dumbass that there are very little to no jobs. Get a hobby instead of coming and talking shit on forums where people are organizing and trying to fix a common a problem. A problem you lack the intelligence to comprehend. You should stop posting the more you post the more dim-witted you look. Do you need a friend?
There are no jobs because you dimwits got what you wanted. You are seeing the results of leftist government. Sooner or later the run out of people and businesses to loot.
Actually, Jesus would probably say - 'repent of being greedy and wanting what you didn't earn. I had a commandment against it. Remember? Actually two, because you fuckwits not only coveted what wasn't yours, but you used the government as a stickup man to steal it.'
That was the best description of Wall Street ever. We are not left or right we are awake so we are up. As for wanting this, again you sound smart we were born into this genius.
If you're against crony capitalism then you're with me. Crony capitalism is just robbing Peter to pay Paul.
Capitalism is the idea of Private ownership vs. government ownership. Private ownership in capitalism implies the right to control property, including the determination of how it is used, who uses it, whether to sell or rent it, and the revenue generated by the property idea of owning process of production property. It is an economic system that relies on private property and market relations but also contains a significant degree of government intervention. I’m not against a free market; I’m against a government that allows its market to run wild and oppress it people with little to no interference. My problem is a market with corrupt corporations that buy public officials to turn a blind eye to the needs and problems of the People. I’m against lobbyist and lobbying, corporate brought public officials (through campaign donations and gifts), and laws that benefit the major corporations instead of the People they were meant to represent. My problem is corruption; we elect public officials to protect us against corrupt corporations in the market yet the same corrupt corporations are the ones paying the bill for these guys to get elected. Now when officials get into office they do as the corporations ask because of their fears of not being reelected. So public officials elected to protect the People form corrupt corporations in the market are working for the corporations they’re supposed to be fighting. CAN YOU SAY CONFLICT OF INTREST!!!!!
This is new to me that he was insulting to the poor. But to the pharasees and rich He was harsh.
Jesus was a socialist =)
Socialism is a system where the government controls all property. It is true that Joseph was in control of all property of the land as the government. But in the law of Moses the property is in private hands. But this way that there is an independent middle class that cannot exploited.
That is true. We must think out of the box. Without power from above WallSt is too powerful. They will not give in voluntarly
When will God act?
The Bible says that He will act speedily when His people pray for justice.
But is it 1 months a year 10 years?
If I knew? The Greek word for speedily is also used here: Acts12:7 And behold, an angel of the Lord suddenly appeared and a light shone in the cell; and he struck Peter’s side and woke him up, saying, “Get up quickly.” And his chains fell off his hands. So it must very soon.
I sounds like right away. Do you think only to the elect?
I must think about it. What do you think?
Well it is saying the elect. What is it in Greek?
The Gospel has been growing for 2000 years. Do think OccupyWallSt will do the same?
He would say - "Holy shit, I'm not even real" - then explode in a purple-paradox-cloud.
He came up with this timeline because the Bible says that before God one thousand years is like one day. In six days God created the world and on the 7th day He rested. From creation the world has exsisted 6 thousand years. So in the 7th millenium the world will get rest.
This sound exciting. How come He came up with that?
Jonathan Edwards a theologian said the 200 years ago that the time of peace for the world would be now.
Is this true? When will this be?
This year next or so maybe
So how can we know for sure?
We should study the Word of God whether we find prophecies
WHere should we look?
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Truth is, Jesus wouldn't say anything about OWS. But watch out when you get to the Pearly Gates cuz you ain't on the list! ;)
Why do you think so? Did He not say a lot against riches? Did He not drive out the money changers? What do you think?
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Jesus provided free healthcare, free education, & free meals for all-comers. He also clearly favoured social justice & pacifism.
Why do American Christians seem to oppose vehemently such policies? Whose religion do they follow? Do they think Jesus was a fool?
I think the point here to make is that that was Jesus and you and I are not Jesus or ever will be. Therefore, we cannot give free healthcare and feed everyone that comes to our door.
I think the actual point is that if - as individuals & as groups/societies - "Christians" don't at least try their best to follow Jesus' teachings & examples, they're not Christians, they're hypocrites (of which Jesus is recorded as being very disapproving).
Well can you make fish and bread out of just one fish and one piece of bread? Because I sure can't
Cloning science can (or it can grow fish meat from fish stem cells, & wheatgerm from cells of the wheat from which bread is made, at least).
In any case, it's pretty feeble to say "I can't do it as well as Jesus did, so I won't bother doing it at all!"
Actually I can't do it at all because of the enormous cost of growing meat in a test tube.
I'm not suggesting you grow meat in a test tube (though the costs & technology of doing so will be within reach of ordinary people within a decade or less) - I'm suggesting that, to be a Christian not a hypocrite, you should do whatever you CAN to follow Jesus' teachings & examples, not just say "it's too hard" & not even try!
Well you brought up the science which seems to make you appear a hypocrite.
Are you implying that science is incompatible with Jesus' teachings & examples?
Are you also implying that science is invariably wrong & untrue?
No I just thought it was the stance of Christians that cloning was wrong.
Ah! You're inferring that I'm a Christian. Well I am a follower of Jesus of Nazareth, but I'm not a so-called Christian (who actually follow Saul of Tarsus).
Gifts make the seeing bling the Bible says. In the USA their is a lot of hianding out of gifts in form of bonuses and extra money.
Jesus never existed. He's a myth. He's an exact copy of the Egyptian god Horus.
Just a question concerning logic. How can you come to the conclusion that somebody never exsisted. What proof can be used. Is there a way to prove that?
You need to take a high school course in logic. What a friggin moron. Any high school debate major can explain that fallacy to you. I'm not going to waste my time debating the existence of Santa Claus with a 5 year old child. For your homework exercise, use your same argument to prove that Santa Claus exists. "How can you come to the conclusion that Santa Claus never existed? What proof can be used? Is there a way to prove that Santa Claus never existed?"
The difference to Santa Claus is that there is proof that he exsistence. There hundreds of witnesses
@Matthias: Biblical Jesus was real ?
There is no contemporary evidence for Jesus’ existence or the Bible’s account of his life; no artefacts, dwellings, works of carpentry, self-written manuscripts, court records, eyewitness testimony, official diaries, birth records, reflections on his significance or written disputes about his teachings. Nothing survives from the time in which he is said to have lived.
There are eye witnesses and eye witnesses of this eye witnesses. RIght now there are thousands of Christians being persecuted tortured or even killed because of their faith. If their faith would depend on the expertise of some scientist determening whether or not the piece of paper is authentic that Jesus wrote they would be in trouble. The Word of God is alive. You can experience it. Imagine I tell you about Aurstria and you deny the exsistence of Austria. I can not give you any proof of its exsistence but I know it exsist because I have been there. In fact I lived just 10 miles from the border to Austria and I saw it every day. So it is with God. I see Him in my spirit and I witness of that.
@ Matthias: Eye witnesses are the very worst kind of evidence, your delusions make you you believe because you have to much time and energy invested in the belief and it is a part of you.
To Challenge the existence of God is a personal affront to you, when it should encourage you to do some critical thinking.
Look, critical thinking brought me to believe in the Bible. I was reading it and was critically questioning what I read which rounded me up interlectually because the doctine of the Bible is completely consistent, flawless and logical.
@Matthias:
The Bible is not self-authenticating; it is simply one of many religious texts. Like those others, it itself constitutes no evidence for the existence of a god. Its florid prose and fanciful content do not legitimise it nor distinguish it from other ancient works of literature.
The Bible is historically inaccurate , factually incorrect, inconsistent and contradictory. It was artificially constructed by a group of men in antiquity and is poorly translated, heavily altered and selectively interpreted. Entire sections of the text have been redacted over time.
I think you rail against the Bible because of personal reasons. I assume that you at one point did not want to follow the truth anymore and now you deceive yourself by portrying the Bible as false which it is not.
@Matthias: Quite the opposite, I was following a false belief system and opted for the truth.
SO when did that happen? How old were you?
@Matthias 19
Please allow me to ask this private question. Why did you leave with 15? What happened?
WHen you left your parents house?
@Matthias: No I left when I was 15.
ROFL! If you think the Bible's "completely consistent, flawless and logical", you're evidently not capable of critical thinking:
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/donald_morgan/inconsistencies.html
http://atheism.about.com/od/biblecontradictionserror/Bible_Contradictions_Errors_Bible_is_Full_of_Contradictions_Errors.htm
https://atheists.org/Contradictions_in_the_Bible
Have you never thought about the influence Jesus Christ has had in this world for 2000 years. It has reached all of the continents and countries. Milltions have been persecuted for it and do not give up. Look at our culture. It is marked by it. What year do we have? Why is it a.d.? Why is there eastern, Christmas? Look at all the names around you. How many are out of the BIble. Maybe even your name.
Objective assessments of the most influential individuals in history consistently place Jesus significantly lower than both Saul of Tarsus (who never met Jesus, whose delusions about Jesus were vehemently repudiated by Jesus' actual Disciples & companions, & who so-called Christians actually follow) & Mohammed (whose influence has also reached every continent & country, hundreds of millions of whose followers have been persecuted but never give up, who influences the culture & names of about 1.5 Billion Muslims much more profoundly than Jesus influences so-called Christians, & from whom Muslims measure their years, months, days, & even hours).
In fact, whether you like it or not, modern Western culture - via the Renaissance, the Reformation, & Western Imperialism - is also strongly influenced by Islamic culture & teachings.
Btw, Gildas isn't a Biblical name, it's Celtic for 'Servant of God' (like the Arabic AbdAllah).
What is the influence of Islam on Engineering, science, humanitarian projects and terrosrism? How many preachers do they have who preach love your enemy and how many preachers do they have to kill your enemy?
Christianity always has been, & still is, the enemy of science & technology. It was only through the West's Renaissance & Enlightenment (both of which were kick-started & heavily influenced by knowledge flowing from the Islamic world at the time), both of which moved Western culture away from, & ultimately marginalized, Christian dogma, that the West finally embraced science & technology. Yet even now, Christians try to block almost every scientific & technological advance, & even try to deny & ignore scientifically-established facts!
Islam has always encouraged science & technology - unlike Christianity, which imposed more than a thousand-year brake on scientific & technological development. There are innumerable examples of spectacular engineering & technological feats by Muslims, from both pre-colonial & post-colonial times. It was only during the hundreds of years of European/Christian colonialism that Muslims were prevented from pursuing science & technology.
Humanitarianism is intrinsic to Islam, & hundreds of millions benefit from Islamic humanitarian projects & groups - your ignorance of that merely shows your lack of education & bigotry.
The vast majority of terrorism in the world is sponsored by & perpetrated by agents of the governments of the major powers, not by Muslims, & a much larger proportion of Christian & Jewish preachers preach hatred & even genocide against Muslims than the other way round - but Christians don't notice, ignore, or even approve, of the former, don't you? Hypocrites!
Your ignorance, bigotry & xenophobia proves that Christianity still discourages & blocks education & knowledge.
Let us come to the ultimate proof that Christianity and Islam are like day and night. The student becomes like the teacher when he is serious. Jesus Christ and Mohammed are like day and night. Jesus preached to love your neighbor and turn the other cheek which he did. He let himself crucify and asked His father in heaven to forgive them. Mohammed on the other hand was fighting wars killing Jews by the hundreds and did certainly not turn the other cheek.
Jesus preached war, & hatred even for one's own family (Matt.10:34-36), &, when it became clear he was about to be arrested, he ordered his Disciples to buy swords (Luke 22:36), & only ordered them not to fight when it became clear they would all be slaughtered by the heavily armed & armored professional soldiers who came to arrest him, if they fought.
Mohammed also preached love for one's neighbor, & even for one's enemy, restraint, & peace, & asked God to forgive his enemies. However, the Jews in Arabia treacherously betrayed a peace treaty they'd signed with Mohammed, & joined the Pagans in trying to annihilate the Muslims, so of course he had to order the Muslims to fight back - decisively defeating both the Jews & the Pagans. That's called self-defense, dummy!
Ultimate Proof: the vast majority of wars of aggression, genocides, & terrorism in the last 1,500 years have been perpetrated by Christians, not Muslims!
except Christianity:)
@1169: WTF "does except Christianity" mean in relation to there being no evidence of Jesus ever being on Earth.
before cameras, electronic record equipment, written history, or any of the things you said, what contemporary evidence is there of anything? nothing happened until u were born chuick.
@1169: Do you think there would be no way to determine evidence of history, you are not very well informed. Here are some examples:
Written History is one way, artifacts, dwellings, works of carpentry, self-written manuscripts, court records, eyewitness testimony, official diaries, birth records, reflections of their significance or written disputes about someones teachings.
you said that first time,you informed me, I get it, so over 2000 years of millions, perhaps billions of people's faith in christianity is not evidence?
@1169: No it is not evidence, because some or a majority of people have faith in something does not make it so.
One must always remember that the burden of proof is on the person making a contentious claim.
Evidence in its broadest sense includes everything that is used to determine or demonstrate the truth of an assertion. Giving or procuring evidence is the process of using those things that are either (a) presumed to be true, or (b) were themselves proven via evidence, to demonstrate an assertion's truth. Evidence is the currency by which one fulfills the burden of proof.
Keep-on Keeping-on with peaceful protest in forwarding a clean government and a clean environment. It is the trying for good in God's name that counts. I believe He might say something like that.
Why do you believe that? How about prayer as well?
( How about prayer as well? ) I believe He would support that as well.
How do think God should help?
He gave life, its up to you to use the gifts he has given you to bring about justice and kindness to your personal trials.
But if we pray we pray for help, right? So how can he help us overcoming the rule of the 1%
yes pray,how this can help us overcome the rule of the 1% I don't know, there is a lot of disscusion on this forum on that. I would hope peacefully changing our economic policys to be fairer to all people.
So what do you think of prayer that people embrace the authority of Jesus Christ over government as well and implement His laws.
I think that would be a good thing if people did it, unfortunetally this world is too seculaized and controlled by the 1%.
But faith can move mountains. Isn't that what will overcome the world: Faith
I believe that He has already made that clear. Read your Bible.
I am sorry I have don't know for sure. Shall we pray for the rule of CHrist accepted by the governments?
We have a separation of church and state for good reasons.
So what is wrong with Jesus Christ. Is he not as smart as the Founders of the USA or the political candidates you have right now?
Nothing is wrong with Jesus. I myself am Catholic. However I make it very certain to never mix religion and politics.
Why. Does not not the Cathlic church teach as well that all authority is given to Him. AND is not Jesus Christ the source of all wisdom and is not politics a question of wisdom?
No in fact God gave us free will and reason. We must use those skills to create a better word. Blindly following God is wrong, and is not what Jesus wants for us.
If you obey the laws of the land then you still talk about freedom. It is just telling that certain things are forbidden. Let us take theft. It is a commandment of God. You have free will but still you have to "blindly" follow this law. The govenrments are enforcing this law. So God does give laws to be enforced.
Well hopefully you do not "blindly" follow any laws. It is expected that once you reach a certain maturity level and cognitive ability, you understand why that law is there and how it betters humanity.
You have mentioned a very good point. God's laws are reasonable and they better humanity. And that it is the reason why God's laws must be followed in politics. Now the truth is that all people do not have enough wisdom and knowledge to find God's law reasonable. Therefore God commands to obey His law whether you understand it or not.
We do not have separation of church and state. Religion is a part of our politics.
We might pray that OWS remains non-violent. But that is not the way it's going.
http://occupywallst.org/forum/is-occupy-still-non-violent-or-as-my-prediction-un/
Your religious vies may influence your political views, but no church has power in the government.
@Matthias..........The world has been for a long time engaged in writing lives of Jesus… The library of such books has grown since then. But when we come to examine them, one startling fact confronts us: all of these books relate to a personage concerning whom there does not exist a single scrap of contemporary information — not one! By accepted tradition he was born in the reign of Augustus, the great literary age of the nation of which he was a subject. In the Augustan age historians flourished; poets, orators, critics and travelers abounded. Yet not one mentions the name of Jesus Christ, much less any incident in his life. -Moncure D. Conway [1832 - 1907] (Modern Thought)
Take the USA for instance as a world power. I have lived there for 5 years. Now I live in Germany where I am from. Do Americans care what happens in Norway? There was no internet, etc. The Word came to Rome eventually. Secondly how do you prove that there is no writing. It is 2000 years later. Look at the politicians nowadays. Do they take notice of Jesus writings. Or are they always talking about the same old talking points. What is the public interest in? Football, baseball etc. Is anyone talking about this post. I don't think so because it is about God and Jesus Christ. But this post existis whether people talk about irt or not.
@Matthias...Your put a lot of words together, but didn't refute my my post, why?
If there is a murder and there is no one writing down the events while watching the murder is no proven fact according to your logic. I thought about your post and came to the conclusion that it is much better this way because of reasons you will probably not understand because you seem not to build your exsistence on the Word of God. But still I try to explain. There are people right now as we speak who are turtured or imprisoned or maybe even executed because of this Word. IN vast parts of this world CHristians are persecuted. So if their faith relies on historical accounts the burden of proof would rely on some "expert" who figures that this paper is as old or not and that this historian maybe relyable or not. As I said you might not understand. But there is prophetic proof of ancient Jewish texts that Jesus lived. The time, the place of birth, his death, the way he died were all prophesied which can be easily proofed that these texts were way before Jesus lived. If you had texts that were exactly from his time you had a large door open for fraud.
The proof comes from a willing heart to obey God and what He says because the consitency, logic and brilliance speak for itself.
I hope I could be of some help.
@Matthias...Your right about one thing more people have been murdered and tortured because of religion than any than any other reason.
I don't agree with that. Greed, I assume that, greed, the love of money and unrighteous gain is the number reason for all the murders. Religion is an one of excuses that are supposed to cover up this fundamental vice.
[Removed]
Unintentional troll bait detected!!! Abandon thread!!!
Why are you so negativ. Can thoughts hurt?. They can I admit but what do think is so bad in my comment. I would like to know. Maybe I can learn something.
Well you did attracted a bunch of people that would not agree with you. Some of OWS do not want to be affiliated with any religion or deity.
But we are changing. The world is changing and the best thoughts will prevail. Not mine, but God's will. Thank you for your comment. Sometimes I regret that we cannot see each other.
[insert illogical and fallacious argument that would beat your argument here]
What ever that goes in there would explain how the internet works on some parts of the internet on a sociological level.
What do you mean?
It is how the internet work sociological level on many parts of the internet however it does not explain how the internet work on a technical level. There is a different explanation of the internet for it's technological aspect.
So where is the connection to this post. I am sorry I still don't understand.
[insert illogical and fallacious argument that would defeat all of your arguments here]
That is my answer. You remember about variables in math class, eh? Well, you will be the one that would insert this variable.
Jesus would adjust his Armani robe and look up from his iPod while I parked his Mercedes and say "hang on, my chrome plated Glok is falling out of my Italian leather holster".... me damn, I've got a call, I'll just take this... sorry" right? I mean capitalism and consumerism is what Jesus is all about!
I think there is a huge misinformation. Jesus was very much opposed to riches. What do you know about the Gospels. By the way a couple weeks ago I was in the Czech Republic.
i was being sarcastic. I grew up reading the gospels although I am now not religious at all. it is amazing to me that people can call themselves christians and read the gospels and accept capitalism.
I fully agree with that the Gospel and capitalism as we see it do not go together. What made you go away from the Bible? Was it a particular incidence or was it a gradual process?
and santa claus too!
My god is the only true god and your god is an imposter. My Jesus is the true king and yours is the antichrist. Follow Jesus - my Jesus. Thus will holy power transcend to the sheeple. Oops!
So reading your name you might believe in evolution. Nothing or chance is the organzier of this world? Is that right?
Evolution does not equate to chance events.
Just so you know most people who even "accept" the notion of "evolution" don't understand it correctly - in other words they understand it in different ways most of which is not supported by evidence (i.e., fossil, genetic, geologic, etc.). That is because most people do not understand "science" and even among the "scientists" there is a lot of pseudoscience being practiced. This is fundamentally related to the nature of fundings (i.e., private / for-profit funding) and the competitive nature of the academic institutions and capitalism itself. Similarly, Jesus / God / other myths and prophets are understood differently representing various essentially private interests while claiming unity (even under the same God or prophet). That was the purpose of my sarcastic remarks.
But this is an issue not even unique to Christianity and religion. It is a systemic issue related to Capitalism or any economic system that creates competing private interests (i.e., any economic system based on private ownership).
You seem to be a man of contemplation and thought. Good. But what about Salomon, according to my faith the wisest man and by the way a scientist as well. He said that a wise man does everything with knowledge but he also says - and I would like to know your thoughts about that.- So Salomo said that he who relies on his understanding is a fool.
We all have a narrow angle to life and are born fools. Individually we are extremely narrow-minded especially to the extent we rely solely on our individual experiences. As a species we have come so far based on the collective knowledge and experience that we have accumulated and built on initially thank to oral memory (necessarily limited) and later to written language and its technological amplifications through paper, printing press, and now digital technology. But such advances have been counteracted by private interests dividing us and manipulating real experiences, history, experiments keeping us ignorant for profit.
Truth and reality exist outside of us, i.e., our subjective knowledge and experiences. The best chance we have in perceiving them objectively is through a collective understanding by experience / experiments through time and space through generations, but guarding against private manipulation. The latter requires common ownership (i.e., abolishing all forms of private ownership and hierarchy), cooperative production, and distribution based on need and ability to produce. That is our best shot at not being a greater or a lesser fool.
I fully agree with the first part of what you have written. Well put. But is stops short of God's influence. He is the source of wisdom and all knowledge is grounded in the works of God. As a preacher put it. All science is theology because it explores the work of God
Except if science is about evidence and experimental proof guiding us through the concerns and conflicts in our lives, it would be hypocritical to also believe in a "God" which by definition does not need evidence and experimental proof, rather the contrary faith. No scientist can go far with those self-imposed limitations. Everything needs to be questioned, nothing will be believed unless proven by consistent range of evidence / independently verifiable experimental proof subject transparently disclosed and subject to challenge.
"Science" and "Truth" will not be hostage to a "god" or any other preconceived notions or private interests / interpretation, lest becoming pseudo-science and fiction.
If this were true: nothing will be believed unless proven by consistent range of evidence / independently verifiable experimental proof subject transparently disclosed and subject to challenge. Then there is no evolution, which there is not. But still many scientist "BELIEVE" in evolution although is does not meet the standard you mentionen.
Jesus is bad mkaay?
I am sorry. I am German. Although I suspect it is nothing good, but please tell me what you mean?
Go read about Enoch, his books were not included in the holy bible and he met up with space aliens and they tought him knowledge of the stars and planets ect. The holy bible only mentions his name 1 time. He was a direct decendent of Adam and Eve.
Read the Gospels Of The Maccabees http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Books_of_the_Maccabees
He is mentioned 11 times. I just checked. There are more books not included in the Bible than the Bible has. There is a reason why it is limited. It is big enough and for a human life time not possible to search out all, I assume.
[-]USCitizenVoter1 points 3 minutes ago
Go read about Enoch, his books were not included in the holy bible and he met up with space aliens and they tought him knowledge of the stars and planets ect. The holy bible only mentions his name 1 time. He was a direct decendent of Adam and Eve.
[-]Matthias1 points 0 minutes ago
He is mentioned 11 times. I just checked. There are more books not included in the Bible than the Bible has. There is a reason why it is limited. It is big enough and for a human life time not possible to search out all, I assume.
My message to you Matthias:
Assume your making an ass out of yourself. God Dam you to Hell you are full of shit. Go read the books then come back you researching freak. Enoch is mentioned 1 time in the holy bible not 11 times.
Look I am childish right now, but I prove it to you that he is mentioned 11 time: Gen_4:17 and Cain knoweth his wife, and she conceiveth, and beareth Enoch; and he is building a city, and he calleth the name of the city, according to the name of his son--Enoch. Gen_4:18 And born to Enoch is Irad; and Irad hath begotten Mehujael; and Mehujael hath begotten Methusael; and Methusael hath begotten Lamech.
Gen_5:18 And Jared liveth an hundred and sixty and two years, and begetteth Enoch. Gen_5:19 And Jared liveth after his begetting Enoch eight hundred years, and begetteth sons and daughters. Gen_5:21 And Enoch liveth five and sixty years, and begetteth Methuselah. Gen_5:22 And Enoch walketh habitually with God after his begetting Methuselah three hundred years, and begetteth sons and daughters. Gen_5:23 And all the days of Enoch are three hundred and sixty and five years. Gen_5:24 And Enoch walketh habitually with God, and he is not, for God hath taken him.
Luk_3:37 the son of Methuselah, the son of Enoch, the son of Jared, the son of Mahalaleel, Heb_11:5 By faith Enoch was translated--not to see death, and was not found, because God did translate him; for before his translation he had been testified to--that he had pleased God well, Jud_1:14 And prophesy also to these did the seventh from Adam--Enoch--saying, `Lo, the Lord did come in His saintly myriads,
There is a huge difference between theocracy and ecclesiocracy... the rise to power in Europe was one of militaristic power; these two seats of power as "church AND state" are common to all societies; even so the supremacy of one over the other has always remained contentious.
America as a descendent of English monarchy first finds separation of church and state in Henry VIII...
But there is more to this... as long as our gods are "righteous" gods and our laws are to be deemed a moral "good," God can no more be removed from law than the measure of morality can be removed from human consciousness.
So what we have is a whole lotta hoopla about nothing... antagonistas creating "issues" for the sole purpose of inciting governmental dissent.
On the evolutionary level, God has already won this war because our desire is evolutionary; to transcend our own biology is to transcend humanity itself, and in so doing, to recreate ourselves as gods.
You cannot win this war of minds... God (of whatever form) has won, and in America, the question has been decided; we are just smarter than all the rest...
The problem is that as soon as government departs from serving God it departs from righteous laws. It is natural for man to know God and it is also natural to depart from God because of a bad heart. Why does a government depart from God. Because it is getting corrupted by riches money pleasure and it forgets about the poor. Show me one righteous government that does not serve Jesus Christ?
I agree... I'm entirely non-prejudiced; possessed of no bias... because I seek a "true" truth... and the reality is that religion remains the only force capable of humbling mankind.
Please help me out. I cannot figure where you stand. Do you believe in Jesus Christ the Son of God, sitting at the right hand of God having all authority in heaven and earth?
Nope... but I am possessed of an almost perfect correlative belief... it's merely a question of verbiage, labels, and language. (I'm not voicing it so don't worry about it.)
I believe that YOU should absolutely believe and I will accept nothing less from America. So grab a hold of Jesus and do as he says: "Listen up, and follow me."
To be possessed of such power to influence is rather incredible, isn't it? And therein lies the wonder of it all.
So what do you think of the last book of the Bible Revelation?
I think it must be measured in exactly the same manner as Genesis; don't you?
Yes, however it is easier to assign a time to Genesis. But what about Revelation. Where do you think we are?
I'm not capable of correlating actual events to those of Revelation. I'm just not that well versed; are you?
I am capabable but maby very wrong in doing so. I assume we are at chapter 18, 19 where the Harlot Babylon is coming down.
Catholics in support
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-buzz/post/catholics-united-readies-golden-calf-for-occupy-dc-march/2011/12/15/gIQAZlq1vO_blog.html
Thanks for the comment. A very good idea the golden calf/bull. Do you have hope that Jesus will bring justice to this earth?
http://www.cnn.com/2011/12/14/us/washington-occupy/index.html
(CNN) -- A group of African-American church leaders announced Wednesday their intention to join ranks with the Occupy movement in the nation's capital, bolstering what some consider a mutual message of condemning income inequality and social injustice.
The move comes against the backdrop of evictions of Occupy protesters encamped in city parks and squares across the United States, raising questions about whether the two groups can capitalize on momentum gained by the months-long movement.
"We are occupying until poverty is eradicated," pastor Jamal Harrison Bryant told reporters at the National Press Club in Washington, near where a core group of activists remains encamped.
The two groups plan to gather during a national "day of action" scheduled for January 16, set to coincide with the commemoration of former civil rights leader Martin Luther King Jr.
But could Wednesday's announcement signify that Occupy is now shifting toward more established forms of influence?
"Every successful movement begins with a grievance and turns into an agenda," said Bill Galston, a senior fellow at the Washington-based Brookings Institution.
By linking up with black church leaders, he said, the group can tap into a community with years of experience in social movements.
Thanks for the info.
Geezus this and geezus that.
If you were to see the power and will of Jesus to help the oppressed and poor against the oppressors. He will bring justice. He will set them free. But who has faith?
Who gives a shit? What would Jesus do? How about another great calamity like an earthquake or tornado? Another cataclysmic white-out in order to get a bunch of people together who will use their heads. There is not much of that here right now.
what religion really doesn't want you to know is you don't need it to be close to god/great spirit/higher power/life force what ever you want to call it.
What is wrong being close to a power that noone can stop, a power who loves you and cares for you?
he wouldn't have been able to say much, ows would have crucified him.
Why the hate against Him?
are you asking me if i hate jesus? i don't. we've never met, but i would be willing to do lumch.
WHat do you know about Jesus?
only what i've read.
So what do think about his life compared to WallSt and Washington people
they don't compare.
I think so too, but both were humans with power. The one has not abused it at all. Instead he used it care for the sick and poor and the others are well known to OWS as not doing so. But if you look closer he has incredible power and a good heart. He has helped me so often ever since I have come to him
by they way Matthias, USCitizenVoter is not a God that was Me your God typing a note to you using his fingers.
Maybe it is too late over here in Germany, but I don't understand what you have written. I cannot see a logic in that. Lets ask a simple question. Are you without sin?
The power of GOD. What a simple question to have recieved so many comments. Jesus was against greed. He would have told you to stop using the worlds mofias credit system to buy things that you won't be needing in heaven. Shun these banks and move you money to credit unions. Jesus has a bottom line it's pray and worship the Lord in your house.
I don't know what you know about the law of God. It is more than just family worship. God was running a whole country. He set up a complete political system. So I think you reduce the authority of God to the family sphere or church sphere. In Psalm 2 it is cleared commanded that governments must submit to Christ as well.
Matthias how would you reply to me if I told you that I am God?
When was the last time I (your God aka Jesus) spoke to you? Don't kid yourself. I am not running your country or any other country for that matter. That's not what I do. I run the universe and I made man, a living breathing organism that can build a machine and fly to the moon.
The mafias run the earths countrys.
You are being contolled by the mafias.
If two people have an disagreement between themselves and they both worship me do you think I would choose between them and bless one over the other?
Sincerely, God
Good point about choosing and why I have always found it to be utterly ridiculous that athletes say prayers before a sporting event. Not only is it ridiculous that they pray for winning anything but to think that anything Divine would be concerned about some man made entertainment is truly egoistic and shallow. Does God decide who should win a man made war? I don't think so because no one wins in war. War is a not a function of the Divine but instead, a function of man's dysfunctional character. If there is a God, He gave us free will to bake any cake we want to with all the ingredients He provided. The cake we have today is definitely not angel food cake for sure.
HARD CORE FACT:
God blessing is mankinds way of thinking to justify an action towards another human being.
Nature on planet earth is about survival of the strongest in a species eliminating the weakest of that species.
Yeah, but what sort of action? I don't see a whole lot of God in others these days. Maybe folks don't consider God's blessings as often as they should.
History lessons often lead people down different paths. Some take the high road while others take the low road. What makes decisions tough is that some things are hard to believe if the facts go against nature like Jesus rising from the dead. But in fact for many years doctors have been reviving people back from the state of death. With that in mind why can't everyone believe that Jesus was brought back to life? Have you ever heard of a doctor feeling like he was a GOD? Good news we all get to die someday and then in one way or another we are to become part of the raw materials of the universe again. My question is what kind of planet do we leave behind for the future generations to survive on?
Are you familiar with the writings and teachings of Wendell Berry the philosopher who I could label as a spiritual agrarian naturalist? I could be wrong but I think you would truly enjoy and appreciate some of his essays, books and quotes. Here's one of my favorite excerpts from him regarding religion: I am uneasy with the term [religious], for such religion as has been openly practiced in this part of the world has promoted and fed upon a destructive schism between body and soul, Heaven and earth. It has encouraged people to believe that the world is of no importance, and that their only obligation in it is to submit to certain churchly formulas in order to get to Heaven. And so the people who might have been expected to care most selflessly for the world have had their minds turned elsewhere — to a pursuit of “salvation” that was really only another form of gluttony and self-love, the desire to perpetuate their lives beyond the life of the world. The Heaven-bent have abused the earth thoughtlessly, by inattention, and their negligence has permitted and encouraged others to abuse it deliberately. Once the creator was removed from the creation, divinity became only a remote abstraction, a social weapon in the hands of the religious institutions. This split in public values produced or was accompanied by, as it was bound to be, an equally artificial and ugly division in people’s lives, so that a man, while pursuing Heaven with the sublime appetite he thought of as a soul, could turn his heart against his neighbors and his hands against the world."
Anytime someone steps outside of their house and prays and shares with others then someone is going to use that religion to controll them for their own greedy purpose. Every idea on the planet will be abused by someone. Laws of nature, up or down, good or bad, ect.
I get your point but I do pray and I share with other- like I am on here. But, I would never think of capitalizing on converting anyone to my Gillian Church of Peaches where life and death are always peachy :D My husband told me once that if you ever want to get rich quick, go get a pulpit and a southern accent. Sadly, there are too many insecure, unsure, fearful weak people in the world who desperately need leadership and have been so easily corralled and bullied by greedy ' prophets' who promise salvation for a small price ( usually a dollar a day or so......hahahahha). I've always wondered how God uses that money and I've also wondered why God doesn't provide for the evangelists and yet the evangelists tell us that if we believe in God, that he will provide for us. So, I guess it's sort of like how Congress is allowed to engage in insider trading but we aren't. interesting, eh?
My two cents:
You have a good idea. Now who wouldn't want to live a peachy life? That has to be worth a buck a day. "LOL" hope it's kind of like the 1960s make love not war "peace"
Sadly though I think it will take a natural disaster of enormous proporsions to change our current way of life.
Love, Peace and Freedom! Oh and you also have to work in my orchard picking peaches on a daily basis. No pay but you'll receive love in your heart, peace of mind, and freedom to sing as often as you choose as well as loads of vitamin C, fresh air, sunshine and the companionship of many good folks, dogs, birds, rabbits, squirrels, birds and bees, cats and coons. If you join today you get a 50 percent discount AND all this has a ' your lifetime' guarantee. It's that simple.
Darn it I was hoping to play with your peaches, sorry but I'm not interested in working in your orchard even though it sound cool. It's the American way you know. Playing VS working, I'll take the playing every time.
I suppose you could play peach tennis, peach ping pong or peach softball or even peach slingshot. Problem is that if you don't feed and care for the peaches, you won't have any toys to play with and you'll only have pit-i-full life. Ever been smacked by a flying pit? It's hell!
Wow you have made some very valid points. Makes me think that I can reap what I sow. Bonus the games sound like they are a lot of fun so I'm wondering if I join do I get equal work and play time? You have to sell me on this I'm no lay down.
I've known a few doctors in my life that thought they were God or at least behaved like they were..hahaha The specific details written in parables are not as important to me as the wisdom reaped from such events. I personally believe that none of us can die with a pure heart and free spirit if we have spent our lives destroying the earth and harming one another. I believe it's a sin to tolerate wars, social injustices, greed, and other destructive practices.
Religion is a way to controll mankind.
That's why it has been tough for any nation to form a fair government. Wealth rules. Poor are uneducated. Poor are led astray with drugs. How can the whole world be afraid of the taliban? Why are we still running cars on gas? 101 questions and no real answers.
I know you can you answer those questions-
fear of the unknown ( afterlife, death, God) are used to control people as you say. Medications like psychotropic drugs are used to control and create apathy and complacency and we are still using oil because of greed. Sadly, this is commonsense Civilization 101. Pathetic isn't it? I'm 50 years old and I feel so sad some days when I realize how my generation has devolved and not evolved in any way that benefits civilization or the earth.
The world is truely insane my friend.
I do not know any doctor who has revived someone who was dead for 3 days.
You do not know any doctor or have not read about any doctor, doesn't prove to me that any doctor can't bring someone back to life after 3 days. Have you ever met God, Jesus, or the Holy Ghost? No you haven't met with the Holy Trinity, you have been tought the word and read the word and now you are spreading the word. No matter what you can't screw with nature or there is a higher price to pay.
First of all, you claimed that doctors can raise from the dead. What they can do is within some minutes. That is well known. But not over days. yes I have met Jesus by getting my prayers answered Can the doctors do all these miracles Jesus performed?
Religion is a way for one man to controll large masses of people. All of your statements come for written words. You have no proof of a single higher being of intelligence (GOD) than you that created the universe. Go out and fight for your rights or our government will keep on taking those rights from you. Man against man = Nature my friend that's the problem.
It is problem as long as see nothing other than themselves. But look at Jesus how he broke out of this vicious circle of fighting and fingthing back. He turned the other cheek and let His enemies kill Him. But He overcame evil with good. Don't you see the beauty in that. Don't you want a world breaking out of fingthing and finghting back. Each man for His own and noone for all` Jesus is love and loves anyone who comes to Him. You can come to Him this moment.
I think you are brainwashed. Nature calls most of its own shots with a force that man has trouble matching or standing up to. God is an idea giving a reason to justify the universe and life as we know it to be.
When I tell you of Austria and what a beautiful country it is and you tell me that I am brainwashed to believe that there is Austria it has no impact on me because I know that there is Austria. I have been there. The same is true with God. I have experienced God and my spirit has seen the truth.
God is the reason you can sit there and condescend Him. Consider that, if you will.
"with a force that man has trouble matching or standing up to". Hell. man can't even understand it! Sounds like a God to me.
Sounds like what? Mans ideas that's what you are worshipping. You are brainwashed.
I believe that Nature = God.
I do too. Nature for me is the source of all that is pure and good in this world. I guess that makes me a Pagan
So how do you explain that Jesus rose from the dead and was seen by over 500 people? Can nature overcome death?
I don't try to. Whether Jesus rose from the dead or not is not really of concern to me. But, what I did learn from that event is that when we die with a pure heart, we are eternally free and our spirit will be filled with love. Nature is pure and perfect just like God. It has no ego, it functions in harmony and balance at all times and even when man interrupts that harmony with his destruction, nature rebounds in it's glory - perhaps taking down a few of it's opponents a long the way. When I look into an animal's eyes, I see the spirit of God, not man. When I watch my garden grow, I see the spirit of God providing nourishment for me and the earth without any price attached to it, when I see the hurricane and it's fury come to the shore, I know that it is cleansing the earth, pruning the trees, slowing humans down and giving them a reason to stop and count their blessings. Nature is truly Divine. The source of our healing, spiritual growth and nourishment comes from nature.
How can His resurrection not be a concern for you? Does it happen every day? And especially in connection with what He said. Now I take it very serious because Jesus says He will judge me. If someone I met somewhere says that, I would worry too much. But if someone performs so many miracles and then rises from the dead after three day I started to tremble and then I listened very closely to what He has to say. I realized it is God who came down to us.
My point is this Matthias- I need not know about Jesus rising from the dead or making miracles to know what a Divine man he was. I focus on his teachings, not the events that plagued his life. Whether he died on a cross or died in bed , his message was clear to me. The reason that Jesus performed all those miracle acts was because there were some people who simply needed that visual proof to believe that Jesus was worthy of believing.
Sorry. So you do believe that He is the Son of God.
OH yes my dear. But, I also believe that you are too. I think that God had hoped that humanity would have learned more lessons than they have since the life of Jesus and that we would not need several Jesus on earth in order to teach His doctrine. Truth is that even if God were here in the room with us in physical body, humans would just humanize Him and he would have no more worth than anyone else in the room. That's why we are supposed to live in Faith. Does that make sense? We are supposed to live our lives in such a way, by faith based on His teachings so that Jesus' death was not in vain. But, I think that many of us have failed to do so.
May the Lord bless you too
But may I remind you that God revealed himself in Jesus Christ. When you see Jesus you see God. So He wants us to worship in Spirit and truth. Please read the Gospels and you will see God and understand what He wants. I understand your thoughts about the house mate. God offers us eternal lifel This is what you should go for. May the Lord bless you and your journey.
And God reveals Himself in you too Matthias. You were created in the image of God's spirit. And you're right that He wants us to worship/live in spirit and truth. " This little light of mine, let is shine, let it shine".
Keep shining your light Matthias :D
May love and peace cloak your heart today and always
So what do you think about the power of prayer that God interferes and brings justice. I am also refering the parable of the old widow who went to the judge over and over again. And because she bothered him I brought justice. And Jesus said how much more will God bring justice to his people who pray to Him?
I do believe in the power of prayer and positive thinking. But one must be sincere, not petty and trivial. I had a house mate once who was supposedly a devout Christian and she prayed about the most silly things like finding her hair pin. I find that disgraceful actually. But, anyway, I do believe that when we center our thoughts and prayers in goodness that the energy changes around us. Some might say that it's God working through us and answering our prayers and some might say that it's a different energy field or vibration that we are emitting. To each his own belief...in any event, I believe.
We have failed so utterly its embarrassing to be human :(
Yes it is. But Harry, chin up. The only thing that matters is that you remain steadfast in your hopefulness and continue to inspire and create good things in this world because in the end, it's really only you that will bare the weight of your conscience.
I've seen Jesus before. Perhaps the laws of nature are more elusive than man can comprehend :)
What makes you not believe that the witness of Jesus is true, that He came from God and created all things?
Its weird, because I haven't said that I don't believe the witness of Jesus. You are making a strange assumption. Perhaps I am just being unclear. God=Nature. Nature decided humans were a little "off-track." Hence Jesus, an incarnation of Nature that doesn't forget where he came from like the rest of us.
Ok, you are right I made an assumption. So now please answer the following question with yes or no. Do you believe that Jesus is eternal God who made the world and rules over the world right now.
Can nature create nature. Can a bird create itself?
Of course, reproduction, evolution. All ways nature created to expand.
How do explain Jesus being raised from the dead?
How would you explain it? I don't know, I choose to believe that nature has a consciousness. If man needed to see Jesus, than consciousness could decide if that was appropriate. Every once in a while a human comes along that seems to be more "in connection" with whats going on around them. Jesus was one of these people perhaps meant to "shock" people awake and pull them back towards the wonders of nature.
The Word:
Jesus spent 40 days on the planet showing himself to his followers after his death to prove that he had died for us so that we can be forgiven of our sins, teaching that anyone forgiven of sin can live in the afterlife with him forever.
Amen, brother
So is there something that proves Jesus statement wrong that that He made everything? After all He was risen from the dead and performed many other miracles like raising other people from the dea. He could heal and so on?
Jesus was tapped in to the streaming energy of nature. I think I tried to say that already but must have confused you.
So He did all the miracles but was a liar according to your view.
hehe, you are so silly. Glad to hear I exhausted your ability to think outside the box. May you be blessed in all of your endeavors as well :)
Of course, but I did mention earlier that though Jesus was He, Jesus was confined to some of the conventionalities of being human. Perhaps not necessarily, but functionally. Being in the human form certainly allowed him to be influenced differently than he would have been had he stayed in the form of energy.
I am sorry but I run out of new arguements. I think the ones I have come up with should have conviced you. But I am afraid they did not convince right now. So hopefully later. May the Lord bless you.
Well the word "person-ality" is a little confusing, as it is a human-person construction. Does the Big It have all of the divine qualities, of course. it is the Form of which Plato wrote.
Jesus is a person, with a personality we have as well. Only that He was perfect. But He is God as well. When you see the person Jesus you see God. Can you follow this thought?
The energy is will and it is heart. The form of "will" and "heart" from which all "things" progress. Personality, that is for humans, not for God.
How about God is the perfect peronality? Can you agree to that?
It is the same one that you believe in, that's the best part about it! There is no fundamental difference between the beliefs that we have. Energy can neither be created nor destroyed, it has always been and will continue to be forever, just like the "He."
What do you base your belief on? Is it simply the words of the Bible? I would think that along with this, you base your faith on personal experience with Him. You believe because you have seen and because you continue to see. It is the same with the streaming energy of nature. I believe and I have experienced, and to not believe would be the greatest sin I could commit on this earth.
Please tell me whether the energy you believe in has a will and heart? So does it react to you based on its personality?
Ah I see. I believe that the streaming energy of nature is the sentient conscious being "He." Science gets closer to proving this fact everyday. Though I personally believe God is a little more mysterious than human comprehension at this point and it will be quite some time before science comes up with an answer that really jives. So for me, there is no difference between the God you speak of and the streaming energy of nature. It is quite a comforting and loving creature, in fact the most compassionate sentience in existence. There is no thing like the streaming flow of energy, though creation's purpose is to emulate this love. Jesus did the best job of this by giving himself in sacrifice to the human experience.
You like your religion, don't you. But I think it is made up and deceiving you. Sorry to tell you.
Though our language and culture is written in dualism, nature is non-dualistic. I believe that we are always judged, that God lives outside of "time-Constraints," that those who are "dammed" are currently experiencing that damnation and will be experiencing it until they return to the flow of nature. This "flow of nature" is the He which Jesus spoke about. I believe that Jesus, like all humans (as though he was connected, he was in human form and thus was accountable to some human conventions), was constrained inside the dualist atmosphere of our language. But Jesus himself said that these "miracles" could be done by anyone who believes. These miracles can be done by anyone who reconnects with the streaming energy of nature, the big He. Jesus came to remind the world of humans what we have forgotten.
I think a major difference in our belief is this. The streaming energy of nature is not a moral being like we are with love, joy, wrath, disappointment. It is just energy. I however believe that God is a moral being who has a will a plan, who reacts to our behavior and faith. For instance God has let the people of Nineve know that He was going to destroy them within 40 days. The people repented and try to appease God. God was moved by their repentance and changed His mind and did not destroy them. I do not see energy to be capable of that. Do you agree that this is a fundamental difference between your and mine view?
For some reason I think you have a little bit of a disconnect when trying to think of Nature, God, and Jesus as coming from the same conscious being.
A liar? You are still confused young man/woman. I really can't comprehend how you could come up with that statement from what I said. Please explain yourself before I continue so that I understand what you are getting at.
Jesus said that He is the Son of God. That He is eternal that He is given all power on earth and in heaven and that He will reign forever and come back judging the world. He said at final judgement some will go to everlasting life and some will be thrown into damnation. So if you say that all this is not true then the Words of Jesus are lies making Jesus a liar.
I don't know
Jesus would occupy.
http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/where_were_you_when_they_crucified_my_movement_20111205/
"The Occupy movement is the force that will revitalize traditional Christianity in the United States or signal its moral, social and political irrelevance. The mainstream church, battered by declining numbers and a failure to defiantly condemn the crimes and cruelty of the corporate state, as well as a refusal to vigorously attack the charlatans of the Christian right, whose misuse of the Gospel to champion unfettered capitalism, bigotry and imperialism is heretical, has become a marginal force in the life of most Americans, especially the young. Outside the doors of churches, many of which have trouble filling a quarter of the pews on Sundays, struggles a movement, driven largely by young men and women, which has as its unofficial credo the Beatitudes:
It was the church in Latin America, especially in Central America and Augusto Pinochet’s Chile, which provided the physical space, moral support and direction for the opposition to dictatorship. It was the church in East Germany that organized the peaceful opposition marches in Leipzig that would bring down the communist regime in that country. It was the church in Czechoslovakia, and its 90-year-old cardinal, that blessed and defended the Velvet Revolution. It was the church, and especially the African-American church, that made possible the civil rights movements. And it is the church, especially Trinity Church in New York City with its open park space at Canal and 6th, which can make manifest its commitment to the Gospel and nonviolent social change by permitting the Occupy movement to use this empty space, just as churches in other cities that hold unused physical space have a moral imperative to turn them over to Occupy movements. If this nonviolent movement fails, it will eventually be replaced by one that will employ violence. And if it fails it will fail in part because good men and women, especially those in the church, did nothing.
Where is the church now? Where are the clergy? Why do so many church doors remain shut? Why do so many churches refuse to carry out the central mandate of the Christian Gospel and lift up the cross?
Some day they are going to have to answer the question: “Where were you when they crucified my Lord?”
Let me tell you on this first Sunday in Advent, when we celebrate hope, when we remember in the church how Mary and Joseph left Nazareth for Bethlehem, why I am in Liberty Square. I am here because I have tried, however imperfectly, to live by the radical message of the Gospel. I am here because I know that it is not what we say or profess but what we do. I am here because I have seen in my many years overseas as a foreign correspondent that great men and women of moral probity arise in all cultures and all religions to fight the oppressor on behalf of the oppressed. I am here because I have seen that it is possible to be a Jew, a Buddhist, a Muslim, a Christian, a Hindu or an atheist and carry the cross. The words are different but the self-sacrifice and thirst for justice are the same. And these men and women, who may not profess what I profess or believe what I believe, are my brothers and sisters. And I stand with them honoring and respecting our differences and finding hope and strength and love in our common commitment. .." ~Chris Hedges
Thanks for the reply. May the Lord bless you. What do think of the Harlot Babylon. Is it the beginning of her downfall?
no, I actually think it's the awakening change of humanity. We are at a cross roads. it depends on what direction we take. Evil has an extremely difficult time squashing out the sparks of human goodness. The world has almost ended numerous times, but we're still here. Once again, we will just have to wait and see what happens.
Well I think that there is only one man who walked on the planet who was human in the good sense. It was Jesus. And without Him there will not be an awakening of humanity. What do you say to that?
For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
1 Corinthians 13:12
You speak in mysteries. Are you a Christian or not?
I am a Catholic; yes, Christian. I don't believe in atheists nor do I believe in religious fundamentalism.
I see atheists as intolerant, chauvinistic, bigoted, anti-intellectual, and self-righteous, just as their archrivals, religious fundamentalists; in other words, as being secular versions of the religious Right.
Do you consider me a fundamentalist? I am open for criticism.
no I do not...you are neither arrogant nor intolerant.
I must also admit that I have my problems with religious right of the USA. I think that they are blinded in certain areas. In fact I am very frustrated that I do not see them stand up for the laws of God in respect to politics. Why do you think they don't do that.
Power and pride corrupts I guess. Wish I had a better answer for you; but keen Observation on your part though :-) concur!
The Bible says; And thou shalt take no gift: for the gift blindeth the wise, and perverteth the words of the righteous. The election process in the USA is based on a lot of gifts. Therefore I don't see a way out with this process of election.
Jesus would say get a job.
I cannot think of any vers in the Bible that would forbid taking a vacation. If people are taking off and protest against an unrighteous situation I don't see anything against the law. But when it comes to WallSt. and the government there are laws as I quoted above.
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The War on Religion by Rep. Ron Paul, MD
As we celebrate another Yuletide season, it's hard not to notice that Christmas in America simply doesn't feel the same anymore. Although an overwhelming majority of Americans celebrate Christmas, and those who don't celebrate it overwhelmingly accept and respect our nation's Christmas traditions, a certain shared public sentiment slowly has disappeared. The Christmas spirit, marked by a wonderful feeling of goodwill among men, is in danger of being lost in the ongoing war against religion.
Through perverse court decisions and years of cultural indoctrination, the elitist, secular Left has managed to convince many in our nation that religion must be driven from public view. The justification is always that someone, somewhere, might possibly be offended or feel uncomfortable living in the midst of a largely Christian society, so all must yield to the fragile sensibilities of the few. The ultimate goal of the anti-religious elites is to transform America into a completely secular nation, a nation that is legally and culturally biased against Christianity.
This growing bias explains why many of our wonderful Christmas traditions have been lost. Christmas pageants and plays, including Handel's Messiah, have been banned from schools and community halls. Nativity scenes have been ordered removed from town squares, and even criticized as offensive when placed on private church lawns. Office Christmas parties have become taboo, replaced by colorless seasonal parties to ensure no employees feel threatened by a “hostile environment.” Even wholly non-religious decorations featuring Santa Claus, snowmen, and the like have been called into question as Christmas symbols that might cause discomfort. Earlier this month, firemen near Chicago reluctantly removed Christmas decorations from their firehouse after a complaint by some embittered busybody. Most noticeably, however, the once commonplace refrain of “Merry Christmas” has been replaced by the vague, ubiquitous “Happy Holidays.” But what holiday? Is Christmas some kind of secret, a word that cannot be uttered in public? Why have we allowed the secularists to intimidate us into downplaying our most cherished and meaningful Christian celebration?
The notion of a rigid separation between church and state has no basis in either the text of the Constitution or the writings of our Founding Fathers. On the contrary, our Founders' political views were strongly informed by their religious beliefs. Certainly the drafters of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution, both replete with references to God, would be aghast at the federal government's hostility to religion. The establishment clause of the First Amendment was simply intended to forbid the creation of an official state church like the Church of England, not to drive religion out of public life.
The Founding Fathers envisioned a robustly Christian yet religiously tolerant America, with churches serving as vital institutions that would eclipse the state in importance. Throughout our nation's history, churches have done what no government can ever do, namely teach morality and civility. Moral and civil individuals are largely governed by their own sense of right and wrong, and hence have little need for external government. This is the real reason the collectivist Left hates religion: Churches as institutions compete with the state for the people's allegiance, and many devout people put their faith in God before their faith in the state. Knowing this, the secularists wage an ongoing war against religion, chipping away bit by bit at our nation's Christian heritage. Christmas itself may soon be a casualty of that war.
If the Founding Fathers envisioned a role for religion in the government, they would have made a provision for it. But they deliberately did not. You are desecrating American History with your revision. For Christians in America to somehow imagine themselves as victims is a psychosis. The churches have tax exempt status and for that reason alone they must quit meddling in public policy. The enormous sums of money all of the Christian churches collect should be taxed to contribute to the maintenance of our country.
The War on Religion by Rep. Ron Paul, MD
As we celebrate another Yuletide season, it's hard not to notice that Christmas in America simply doesn't feel the same anymore. Although an overwhelming majority of Americans celebrate Christmas, and those who don't celebrate it overwhelmingly accept and respect our nation's Christmas traditions, a certain shared public sentiment slowly has disappeared. The Christmas spirit, marked by a wonderful feeling of goodwill among men, is in danger of being lost in the ongoing war against religion.
Through perverse court decisions and years of cultural indoctrination, the elitist, secular Left has managed to convince many in our nation that religion must be driven from public view. The justification is always that someone, somewhere, might possibly be offended or feel uncomfortable living in the midst of a largely Christian society, so all must yield to the fragile sensibilities of the few. The ultimate goal of the anti-religious elites is to transform America into a completely secular nation, a nation that is legally and culturally biased against Christianity.
This growing bias explains why many of our wonderful Christmas traditions have been lost. Christmas pageants and plays, including Handel's Messiah, have been banned from schools and community halls. Nativity scenes have been ordered removed from town squares, and even criticized as offensive when placed on private church lawns. Office Christmas parties have become taboo, replaced by colorless seasonal parties to ensure no employees feel threatened by a “hostile environment.” Even wholly non-religious decorations featuring Santa Claus, snowmen, and the like have been called into question as Christmas symbols that might cause discomfort. Earlier this month, firemen near Chicago reluctantly removed Christmas decorations from their firehouse after a complaint by some embittered busybody. Most noticeably, however, the once commonplace refrain of “Merry Christmas” has been replaced by the vague, ubiquitous “Happy Holidays.” But what holiday? Is Christmas some kind of secret, a word that cannot be uttered in public? Why have we allowed the secularists to intimidate us into downplaying our most cherished and meaningful Christian celebration?
The notion of a rigid separation between church and state has no basis in either the text of the Constitution or the writings of our Founding Fathers. On the contrary, our Founders' political views were strongly informed by their religious beliefs. Certainly the drafters of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution, both replete with references to God, would be aghast at the federal government's hostility to religion. The establishment clause of the First Amendment was simply intended to forbid the creation of an official state church like the Church of England, not to drive religion out of public life.
The Founding Fathers envisioned a robustly Christian yet religiously tolerant America, with churches serving as vital institutions that would eclipse the state in importance. Throughout our nation's history, churches have done what no government can ever do, namely teach morality and civility. Moral and civil individuals are largely governed by their own sense of right and wrong, and hence have little need for external government. This is the real reason the collectivist Left hates religion: Churches as institutions compete with the state for the people's allegiance, and many devout people put their faith in God before their faith in the state. Knowing this, the secularists wage an ongoing war against religion, chipping away bit by bit at our nation's Christian heritage. Christmas itself may soon be a casualty of that war.
Good words. But I want to add something. Ron Paul wrote: Throughout our nation's history, churches have done what no government can ever do, namely teach morality and civility I add: The wisdom of God includes wisdom for politics and the economy too because it is about a Kingdom of God which includes everything. People have proved that they cannot set up a perfect law. But God can.
Is this guy (Matthias) setting their next to you guys or he's just using the board to gether members for his own congragation?
This guy is a troll - ignore him.
I do what all of you do the as well. I share ideas and discuss them.
You’re trolling for la la land right?
East Germany has achieved what you are trying to do and maybe succeed. The have completely changed their political and economical system. Within only a couple of weeks communism fell. How could this be. If you dig into the matter you will find that the center of protest was a church in Leipzig. The cetnral time of protests was Mondays. Why?
He's got a hardon for JC that won't quit.
Matthias, I agree.
Agreement is like cold water on a thirsty soul
Good work Matthias. No matter what harsh words have been leveled against you, you have responded with love and integrity. Some may not like your message, but that is no reason to attack.
I found myself getting angry until I read your post and your consistently kind responses. I was reminded of Christ's response to his executioners: "Forgive them Father, for they know not what they do"
If you knew how much joy and encouragement your words mean to me. May God bless you richly and encourage you as friendly and deeply as you have encouraged me.
Why keep Jesus out of the conversation. He had an opinion like anyone else. Before Marx, there was Jesus.
Who Is Greatest?
Luke 22:24-30 24And there arose also a dispute among them as to which one of them was regarded to be greatest. 25And He said to them, “The kings of the Gentiles lord it over them; and those who have authority over them are called ‘Benefactors.’ 26“But it is not this way with you, but the one who is the greatest among you must become like the youngest, and the leader like the servant. 27“For who is greater, the one who reclines at the table or the one who serves? Is it not the one who reclines at the table? But I am among you as the one who serves.
Amen! Do you know Jonathan Edwards?
Indeed. "Sinners in the hands of an angry God" would certainly get a response here. Unfortunately, sinners would be narrowly defined as Wall Street employees. "At the time when their foot shall slide, For the day of their calamity is at hand" (ASV)
From one sinner to another....
If Jonathan Edwards is right we will soon see times of great joy for the world.
The official Occupy Wall Street list of demands describes the demands in too complex detail. People are used to bumper sticker messages. Let's dump our elitist tendencies: we don't need to quote M. L. K. Jr: we don't need to point to videos "to inspire you".
Demand #1 is waaaaaaaay too convoluted. I hate it with a passion. It reads like it was written by an infiltrator bent on discouraging all who read it.
And we must point to what we will do if our demands are not met, i.e. we will continue to occupy places like Wall Street; we will organize specifically to vote people out of office; we will have runs on banks; we will boycott businesses; we will block traffic during rush hour when our crowds are too big to crush, things like that.
We also need to make use of our conscience, especially since we are specifically asking Wall Street to HAVE a conscience. Here's how I propose we rewrite our demands:
-Demand #1: Stop all the wars and bring 100% of our troops home; shut down illegal/immoral military bases around the world, including warships threatening countries, and repel the Patriot Act. How can we be taken seriously if we say nothing about the killing and crippling of innocent people being carried out in our name using our money, and if we sacrifice our civil liberties to provide cover for war profiteers?
The money we save from the wars and bases can immediately be used to take care of our returning troops with medical treatment, infrastructure jobs, , business loans, etc. We want our military on our side, not on Wall Street's side. If riots break out, we want our military to refuse to shoot us.
-Demand #2: Cut the "defense" budget in half and use the money we save to hire troops and other Americans on infrastructure development jobs (schools, bridges, roads...)
-Demand #3: Prohibit investment banks which issue securities and commercial banks which collect deposits from merging or overlapping and reinstate conflict of interest prohibitions against investment bankers serving as officers of commercial banks. (That's all we need from the originally published demand #1)
Demand #4: Reverse the Citizen United court decision by banning ALL corporate political contributions.
Demand # 5: Pass the Buffet rule on fair taxation; close all corporate tax loopholes and prohibit hiding funds overseas. The money saved must be used to develop jobs.
Demand #6: Appropriately regulate the Securities and Exchange Commission and create serious oversight with clear penalties.
Demand #7: Remove 100% of access of PAID lobbyists to the White House, and to our congresspeople and senators...with clear penalties.
Demand #8: Make it illegal for former or current government regulators to work for industries which they regulated...with clear penalties.
Demand #9: Eliminate "personhood" status for corporations.
Demand #10: Prosecute the criminals who crashed our banks and illegally took our homes from us.
--Please contact Amir Dread on Facebook or write to nydread@yahoo.com
One of things God has established to protect the middle class and poor is abolishing intest on debt. If you had brought 1$ to the bank in the time of Jesus you would have more than: $2.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000 by now. This is power of compound interest. Who would pay it? A lot of the poor WHat do you say?
Take the 5 minutes out of your day that you may spend smoking a cigarette, drinking a beer or gluing your eyes to yet another poorly drawn out television show & read up!
RON PAUL! 2012 http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=181997088537471 http://www.blackthisout.com/
I am waiting for a presidential candidate who like Jesus shares the life of the odinary people and lives in a double wide or single wide or small house. A man who hates gifts. A man who does not go the way politicians get corrupted. Some who has a campaign using social media youtube etc to get his message out so does not need millions of dollars. A man with wisdom, humility and graciousness. Is someone like this in the US? Please help find him.
Amen... Jesus was a poor carpenter that shared everything he had with homeless people, prostitutes, the sick and the needy. In the wonderful words of Miranda Lambert...
"‘Cause I heard Jesus, He drank wine And I bet we’d get along just fine He could calm a storm and heal the blind And I bet He’d understand a heart like mine"
Regardless, this is not a political movement. It has nothing to do with being a Liberal or Conservative, Democrat or Republican, Muslim or Jew or Christian or Atheist. It has nothing to do with the Left or the Right. This is a Financial Revolution. This is a revolt of the 99% that are throwing off the yoke of financial oppression to free our Government from the corrupt control of the 1%. We are no longer willing to sit idly by and just voting in hopes that the elected officials will ignore the puppet strings and do what is right. We are taking our future into our own hands and standing up to fight for what we believe in, a Government for the People by the People.
We live in a Feudalistic Capitalist society governed not by the elected officials but by the person who donates the most money to their cause. The top 1% controls the money and thus controls the laws, fixing them to better themselves rather than better the 99%. So we, the serfs, are rising up against our oppressors. We will fight for ourselves. We will not ignore the 1% mocking us while they sip champagne and wonder "Why do they starve when they can eat cake." Like the American and French Revolutions we will rise against the Monarchy and attain our freedom.
In a modern American society it is virtually impossible to violently fight a rebellion against the 1%. The military industrial complex has insured that the general populace can not compete in an arms race. The 2nd amendment was intended to keep the Government honest with the ability of the populace to rise up if it ever overstepped it's bounds. The forefathers did not envision a future of smart bombs, drone airplanes, and tomahawk missiles. So what weapons can we fight with to effect this Financial Revolution? What peaceful, civil, and responsible solutions is there? We have, our money.
We will cripple the banks by refusing to acknowledge their credit system. We will en mass refuse to pay our mortgages, car loans, student loans, credit cards, unpaid medical bills, insurance, etc. We will couple this with pulling our money out of their Banks. Unified, we will force the banks to relinquish their control on the Government so that the Government can do what they need to do to correct the system. Meanwhile, we will still go to work, buy groceries, pay our utilities, and live normal lives.
The 1% have to be accountable for their actions. They have to relinquish control. They can not live in their ivory towers and ignore us anymore. The 99% are here to fight for our country. We are American and we believe that the American Dream is still alive. We just have to work hard to wrest it from the iron grip of our oppressors.
Thanks for your elaborate comment. A question. Do we not want to come to the root cause of this and remove it otherwise the bad fruits will come up again. When we look to history we see that revolutions have revolved the persons but not the system that favors a few and forgets about the cause of the poor. The communists turned out to have the same spirit as the people they removed. Let us not make the same mistake all over. The root is the falling away from the only one righteous God and seeking unrigheous gain. If the hearts and minds are not changed a new system will be abused as much as the replaced one. God of course knows the problem and send a King who was and is supposed to set up a Kingdom of righteouness. The Kingdom of God was started by Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ gives something the revolutinaries do not have. A Spirit that can transform the hearts and minds. Jesus' Kingdom is a political kingdom as well. This truth has been forgotten. He has fincancial laws as well. The good news is that He also has the power to set it up and He will as promised in Scripture. Isaiah and John prophecy of a time when righteous autorities will rule and bring justice to the poor. It does not mean we should do nothing. But zeal without knowledge is not good. The promise however is: Blessed are those who seek righteousness for they shall be filled.
I appreciate your sermon. However, this is not the place for it. I believe in God. But this is not about being a Cristian, Jew, Muslim, Atheist, etc. I think the Bible, the Koran, and most holy texts uniformly have a good code of general ethics on how to conduct our lives. Someone more learned than I could quote those texts and show the similarities of them all as it is concerned with how to properly deal with others morally. We want to return our Government back to the People as it was intended by our forefathers. They believed strongly in a separations of Church and State. I wish that they had also written into the Bill of Rights a separation of Market and State. That way neither extreme fundamentalist religious views nor extreme capitalistic greed could ruin the Union.
Please bear with me, but one root of the problem is that people or parts of society take up the role of God and if others believe that they derive huge power from this belief. The bull in front of WallSt- isn't it the golden calf that stands for source of prosperty and economical blessings. It is God however who provides for the worldly needs of the people. The reason for backing WallSt was that people believed that we would go down with them. You guys seem to not believe that anymore, Good! But do you want to replace one idol with the next? The forefathers broke with England in the name of liberty and kept slaves. I do not see anything recomandable in that. They set up the system you fight against now. If you seperate a society from God, the idols that spring up like the bull in front of WallSt will take over.
Jesus would unleash the four horsemen the very second he saw those people in Atlanta.
I am sure Jesus is working constantly. But I think we are further ahead in revelation. My guess is that we are before the downfall of the root evil which is the mysery Babylon, which rules over the authorities and makes them corrupt
Jesus would say "Give to the Poor". It implies willingness. He would not say "Protest and Demand and Rob free stuff from others who have it."
EVERYONE is an Atheist, some just go one stupid fucking GOD further..
Cursing will not help. So what will you do in the hour you die?
I will realize that all biology has an end. I will live my life, savoring every moment, instead of being a slave to corporations, hopping maybe in some next life i will have it better. This is the only time we have. I will NOT be a slave.
Ok, but do you really think you will escape the power of Wall Street. Why don't you turn to God because He has the power to do something about Wall Street.
Oh, really? Then why hasn't He done something about it? He hasn't, and in the absence of any Divine intervention, we humans are stuck with doing His job, to the best of our own poor, imperfect abilities. President Kennedy said, more than once, that sometimes God's work must be done by human hands, and apparently this is one of those times.
It God sends help who has done it. The one who helps or God or both?
God has not sent help--not to us, not to the millions who have died waiting for Him to help them. If we want anything to be done, we must do it for ourselves. If we succeed, you'll say God did it. If we fail, you'll say we didn't have enough faith in God. But the fact is, you're like Job's "friends", who came to "comfort" him, but just added insult to injury. They didn't know God. They lied about Him, and that's what you are doing, now. Job had to make a sacrifice to save his friends from God's wrath. Who's going to make a sacrifice for you? The short answer: nobody.
You are right given the case life is over after death. But if life on this earth is only a small percentage of the overall exsistence then your equasion is not right because those people who waited on God here and died will see that God is coming to their rescue.
Looks to be like you've missed the whole point of the parable of the talents. If you just wait, God won't rescue you--He'll kick your ass.
Maybe I have not expressed my view properly. Bear with me I am German. I do not say that you should quit protesting. What I say is that you should get the backing of God.
Those of us who believe in God believe we already HAVE His backing. For the rest of us, that's a non-issue, and the point of this whole movement is that we're working TOGETHER. "Do you really think we care what you read or what you wear? Come on and join together with the band!"
We will see
God willing! Of course, if the Colorado Springs police get nasty, here at Occupy Colorado Springs, I might not live to see it; but that's the kind of risk we all are taking, isn't it?
Thanks
praying is the best way to to do NOTHING while you feel like youre doing EVERYTHING. if everyone just prayed, there protest would not be happening. IF youre serious, and not some noob troll, i really feel bad for you.
With all due respect for Matthias (such as it is, and what there is of it), I would suggest that he consider the old saying so many medieval monks lived by: "To work is to pray." Or, if Matthias wants a more Evangelical statement, "Put some shoe-leather to your prayers."
I feel bad for you if you have to rely on your strength to bring down Wall Street. It is not only Wall Street. It is connected with all the powerful in the world. So who is more unreasonable?
You are. The rest of us includes people who believe in God but are willing to work and take the risks, rather than just pray. The rest of us also includes peope who do not even believe that God exists, because this world and this life show so little evidence that He exists. Me, I'm a Christian, so I know that I must both work and pray. So what are you, and what's your excuse?
I am sorry that I might have given a wrong impression. I am not only praying but working as well. I used to live in the US and tried ot convince friends and collegues to stand up for the law of God in respect to money. I started a community where you trade and do business in a fair manner and not exploiting others. I did that in South Dakota where most of the people a Repulicans. They asked why I donät go back to Germany which I eventually did. But even now I am preaching the against the lawlessness of the financial system and developing an online community where we can live differently.
Okay, all of that is well and good, but what you are doing on this forum is neither well nor good. You're sucking time and energy from people who could be discussing strategies, tactics, and--most urgent of all--logistics, to keep these people fed, clothed, alive, and winning. If that's your goal, too, let's be about it. If that's not your goal, then later for you.
I disagree, because you need to come up with demands that will make a difference and break the power of Wall St. If you demand: No interest on debt. Debt release every 7 years. redistribution of basic wealth after 50 years you can wave good by to credit card companies and alike. And if enough people turn to Christ you can change this world.
You say "wave good by to credit card companies" as if that were a bad thing. And as for "if enough people turn to Christ", how many is "enough", and how long a wait are you suggesting? For me, six days is long enough. On 15 October, a lot of the rich and powerful are going to realize they'd better give their souls to Jesus, because their sinful asses will belong to us!
how do you do business and at the same time not exploit? did not jesus kick traders out of the temple? what did he say about trading at that moment? did jesus ever in his whole life on earth do business? did he ever encourage one to do business?
Jesus was a carpenter before he joint the ministry. There is nothing wrong with fair business. I raise cattle and you raise vergetables. If we do fair business we can both enjoy steak with potatoes.
i take that as a no.
Why?
because you are not answering my questions. you dont want to tell me what is fair trade and you dont want to tell me what jesus said about trading. you are merely claiming its "ok" if its "fair".
Sorry. I want to do that. Fair trade is that I charge you what I want to get from you. So if I work for an hour for you and want $20 dollars I must we willing to give $20. If the CEO earns 411 more than the worker like it was in 2005 I would call it unfair.
are you aware of the fact CEOs dont make their own wage? it is made by the board of administration. are you saying the members of the board wouldnt take this wage as their own or what is your logic in this CEO example? i think you want to say every hour of work should be paid the same?
They do make their own wage because they agree on it. They could say that they want less.
In this, you're entirely right. Steve Jobs, as CEO of Apple, took an annual salary of $1. He was no saint--he just knew he didn't need the money because he was already a billionaire from selling NeXT to Apple and PIXAR to Disney.
Look into history. What broke the power of the pope in the 16th century who was also taking the money from the poor? It was Martin Luther who brought the truth to light and the power was broken. You need a moral backing? The moral backing is that Christ is the legitamite ruler over the world and His laws must be obeyed. He says that we should forgive debts to be forgive among other things. Now we in Germany have almost no tuition for Universities. In the US many young people start out their adult life with being in bondage of debt after leaving college. If you want to get rid of the grid of Rich people you need a moral backing? Please tell me. What keeps you from accepting the Lordship and Kingship of Jesus Christ?
Nothing. Him I gladly serve! Martin Luther? Not so much. He swore vows of poverty, chastity, and obedience, then broke them. He pretty much instigated the peasant revolt, then betrayed it. Moral backing? He tried to convince the Patriarch of Constantinople that he had God's moral backing, and Jeremias didn't buy it. Without benefit of synod or council, he ripped out of the Old Testament all the books he didn't like. They say he even wanted to get rid of the Epistle of James--he called it "the epistle of straw"!--but his colleagues wouldn't allow that. He wrote some of the most vile anti-semitic crud since John Chrysostom in the 4th century, and gave Hitler all the ammunition he needed for the Holocaust. So if you're a follower of his, I say repent and turn instead to God.
You have much info but it is not as know it. What are your sources?
My source is roughly four decades of study of the Bible, theology, ecclesiology, hagiology, church history, and related topics. For the short course, re: Martin Luther, refer to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Luther and similar online resources.
I am German as you might know and Ilive in Germany, so I am kind of close to Marthin Luther's descendents. Martin Luther achieved something OccupyWallSt wants to achieve: break the power of a supressive system. Europe was changed because of Luther. So I think you should take that into account as well.
Well said, and you're right! Like all of us, Martin Luther fell short of perfection, but he did far more good than I have done in my 70 years in this world!
I am humbled by your humility. Blessed are those who humble themselves because they will be exalted.
Actually, for me humility is easy--as one of our Lord's most unprofitable servants, I have so very much to be humble about! :) Thank you for your kind words, my brother! I'll carry them with me, when I go to join Occupy Colorado Springs tomorrow.
or they could give the money to the poor instead of the stock holders that the board of administration represents. do you think workers would earn more if the CEOs earned less?
Of course. Look at Walmart. There used to be many Mom and Pap stores which provided a middle class living. Now there are a couple of people who a billionaires and a million earning hardly enough or not enough to make a decent living with a family.
that is right. but in the example i wasnt suggesting other company sizes, i was just asking where the money would go if the CEO didnt take it.
to the shareholders I am afraid.
that is correct.
But is written: Whoever multiplies his wealth by interest and profit gathers it for him who is generous to the poor.
God will judge.
a lot of stuff is written.
BUt God will watch over His word and make it come true. He has the power and will to do so and no WallSt can stop Him.
im not a believer so this rings hollow to me.
Let's hope someday you will see and live forever.
hey, hey.. according to every believers theory you dont simply cease to exist by not believing.. maybe go to hell yes but stopping to exist? thats not a theory that i ever heard from a believer. thats only the harsh reality all nonbelievers believe in, be it for believer or nonbeliever.
So you do believe that all people will resurrect?
i outed myself as a non-believer and you ask me for my beliefs? :S
Sorry, you did say that. But over 500 people saw Jesus alive after he was crucified. Some of these people paid with their life for this witness. Their testemony spread through almost all the world and it is still growing. Jesus was resurected and why should I believe you have not and not Jesus who was?
Who cares he is dead, move on, that 2,000 year old Christian religion has never worked even after 2,000 year and god knows that is enough time for it to work. Try something new like living a real life and get the hell out of peoples private sex lives where you do not belong. They need a movement to get you Jesus Freaks out of the sex lives of people who never wanted you there ever. And let the gays get married and stop all your Christian hate towards every body who does not go along with your fairy tale crap.
Just cool down a little. What exactly do you not like about the teaching of Christ?
Everything and everyone connected with it. The Christ thing is a scam to get money out of suckers like the World Bankers, only you lie about some place called heaven that no one can prove along with the rest of your bull shit. You are just a bunch of controlling haters who want it you way, your time is up, you have had 2,000 years to do something and you have Failed. You are fakes and con men who make promises you can not deliver. Now you want to harass anybody who is not "one of you", you people have gone crazy and need to get the hell out of the peoples sex lives now.
I think this is the best post I have read all day.
I hope you will get rid of your rage and find peace. Peace is with Christ in the forgivness of sins.
I can't believe this thread is still alive! So what exactly would Jesus ask the protestors to do? We welcome suggestions from anyone. Even Jesus.
You need a wise, consistent righteous agenda, that is protecting the poor from the rich. Jesus is wisdom. He of course has the perfect agenda you need. So go to Him and learn from Him. Everything is prepared. He is waiting
I am waiting too. Give us some concrete action items to work on. Tell us how Jesus would handle the whole situation.
OK. This is a draft. Wisdom also says that there is victory in a multitude of advisors:
A note to the Christian right: If they are against release of debt they should meditate what they pray in the Lord's prayer: Forgive us our debt as we forgive our debtors. They should heed the warning of Christ who comments on the Lord's prayer with these words. If you don't forgive God will not forgive you.
I agree with releasing those not convicted of serious crimes. Not sure about others. What about those that dont believe in the Gospels like you do? There are millions in this country alone that dont. Not counting the billions outside.
A happy medium can be found in the teachings of Jesus whether you believe he was the son of God or not or whether you believe in the gospels or not. The Bible is filled with incredible wisdom and Jesus is about love, peace and forgiveness, but also sacrifice.
You are my biggest challenge so far with your very good questions that come to point. May God give me wisdom. Martin Luther was not the first one who spoke out against the abuse of power of Rome. There were people before him and some of them were killed. But the time had come for God to end that power of Rome and then He came with giving Martin Luther broad support by changing the hearts and minds of people. Christians can only stand up for the truth and pray and the time will come and maybe it has come when God will send a hunger to the people for His help and then there will be big enough support. There is the clear prophecy for this to happen, that all peoples will come to Chist to learn from Him. There is the clear prophecy that they will band up to seek the mercy from God. I look forward to your next reply.
1and 2 seem reasonable. After all, we are already paying close to 50% in various taxes. Instead of being used to help the needy and essential things it is going into bailouts and kickbacks. I see your point in 3. Without 3, 1 and 2 cannot be sustained. How does all this affect social issues. Thats where we start having problems. You realize, of course, that a decent human being will automatically do most of what you are saying. We just dont have enough of them!
go to hell ass hole
What makes you so mad?
Jesus would say - "Guys, you are open minded-thinkers. Finally, I can admit that I'm gay."
Look, by scoffing we do not solve the problems in our lifes and our countries. Jesus has been killed and risen from the dead after three days. Call on Him and find real help for yourself and our countries.
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How sick are you? and how did you escape from your asylum?
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ShortnFatnNasty - you are who you are and I would guess that you get quite a few nervous but firm rejections.
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Try to excuse yourself any which way you want to - it still boils down to the fact that you are nasty.
Nasty? People using imaginary Jesus to push for things, pass certain laws, kill, brainwash, take advantage of third world nations, etc... are nasty.
There is nothing nasty about poking fun at an imaginary character.
Loosen up. you're such a tight ass conservative.
So - Are you a member of this infamous twinkle team? I can see no other reason why you would insert yourself into this conversation.
I was, but I made an apology a few days ago. Trying to change my ways.
https://occupywallst.org/forum/i-want-to-apologize-to-shadz66-and-others/
inserting myself in the discussion = participating on a forum. That's what forums are for. To share ideas. If you want private conversations one on one, you use email.
To have a private conversation and so use e-mail - it would help to have an e-mail address. How come I get the feeling - after looking at this web site for a day or two - that I feel that you are one of the attackers to this site? An usurper of another's user name.
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It's funny - but the more you say that? The less I believe you. But - your being such a good friend of jart's - it is likely that you will have no problem having her make a statement to the forum. Good Deal. As that will put to rest any questions as to who is in control of the forum right now.
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Have you donated to OWS?
I have donated many hours to give advice on a way that will lead to success. Look at this thread and caculate how long it would take to just retype half of it.
Just like a church that is non profit Occupy also needs funds to get the job done. Spread the word there is a donate tab at the top of the website. Thanks
If you guys team up behind Christ I am happy to give. But if you don't I do not see a good way to success. Look at all the revolutions. Just yesterday my daughter was watching a movie about the aftermath of the French Revolution which was called the Reign of Terror. Estimates of the death toll range between 16,000 and 40,000 executed with the Guillotine. With Christ it is a different story. Look only because the poor don't oppress with money does not mean that they would not do it if they had it. Therefore there must be change of heart on all people inculding OWS.
Jesus had lessons about giving to the poor? Are you against donating to the poor and hungry Occupy citizens that have lost their jobs and homes? Are you sure you understand what Occupy stands for?
WHat makes you think that I have riches. Look I have a single income 4 kids to feed and I use money for other charitable things. You will agree that you are not the only people in this world who need help. The corruption of money has reached all over the globe. There is need all over. Therefore I think one of the most effective ways is to preach the way out so this world wide mess ends. Are you aware of all the misery in the world. The time is too short to list them all and my heart would not survive it.
As a preacher you can save a few souls but you need to look at history in the bible and take heed. You are not going to save the whole world. There will always be misery in the world you can't change that. I do wish your family the best of luck may you have a merry christmas and a happy new year.
Thanks for the wishes. I wish you a merry Christmas as well. It was good talking to you.
James 2:14-26
What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.
Good scripture. Please tell me what you relate it to?
Jesus would tell OWS to go out and kick some ass. Jesus would tell OWS to go out and kick some ass. Jesus would tell OWS to go out and kick some ass. Jesus would tell OWS to go out and kick some ass. Jesus would tell OWS to go out and kick some ass.Jesus would tell OWS to go out and kick some ass. Jesus would tell OWS to go out and kick some ass.Jesus would tell OWS to go out and kick some ass.Jesus would tell OWS to go out and kick some ass.Jesus would tell OWS to go out and kick some ass.Jesus would tell OWS to go out and kick some ass.Jesus would tell OWS to go out and kick some ass.Jesus would tell OWS to go out and kick some ass.Jesus would tell OWS to go out and kick some ass.Jesus would tell OWS to go out and kick some ass.Jesus would tell OWS to go out and kick some ass. Jesus would tell OWS to go out and kick some ass.Jesus would tell OWS to go out and kick some ass.Jesus would tell OWS to go out and kick some ass. Jesus would tell OWS to go out and kick some ass. Jesus would tell OWS to go out and kick some ass. Jesus would tell OWS to go out and kick some ass.
Do not use the Lord's name in vain, my son. You know not of what you speak.
Headed in the direction of a shot of whiskey at the moment have a blessed day my friends. Cheers to you! However I didn't use the name in vain since you read/heard the words loud and clear.
Do you know that He has all power and authority to do whatever He want in heaven as well as on this earth inculding WallSt?
So Whatever, but I don't see him out on the streets kicking anyones ass for me so I'll have to do the ass kicking myself. Please let me know when he shows up at wall street.
Do you know that one of the biggest penalties in this life is being rich serving riches and not God and heading to everlasting destruction, hell. So if He does not show up at WallSt it would be one of the worst punishments they could get.
I think your a communist. One time you tell me he's coming and now you are telling he's a no show. My O My what a tangled web of knowledge you have to share with OWS.
The problem with standing up for God is that He is God, whoes works noone can understand fully. What are we? A vapor that comes and goes. For us 100 years are an eternity. For God a thousand years are like a day. For us the US might be all we know. For God it is like a drop on a bucket. So at times it is natural that it might seem confusing.