Forum Post: What would Jesus say about OccupyWallSt? Part II. American Christians slept with WallSt
Posted 12 years ago on Oct. 20, 2011, 5:06 p.m. EST by Matthias
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The true Gospel is the good news for the poor, the broken hearted and the oppressed. It is bad news for the rich and WallSt because it says, blessed are the poor and woe to you rich, because you have had your reward.
According to a survey 76% percent of Americans say they are Christians. President Obama says he is a Christian, George Bush says he is a Christian, over 80% of Congressmen say they are Christians, but why is Christ not the King of Kings, supreme law giver and head of the Country? Instead it is the constitution of British subjects who rebelled against their authority in the name of freedom while keeping slaves whom they taxed even their very life and children.
Now some people wake up and wonder why the system has allowed WallSt to become so rich and powerful, they wonder why there is such a gap between rich and poor. Why are you surprised? Do you think the gap between slaves and their owners was any smaller in 1776? The wisdom of the US system has always worked for some people. They get rid of taxes, grow rich on the backs of others, call themselves the source of prosperity, and cover up this hypocrisy with chants of patriotism and freedom.
When will you wake up and see the true source of political wisdom: Jesus Christ who is not living on the backs of others.
But no, it is said that Jesus should stay out of politics!
Here is my question to the Christians who are taught in the Word of God. What is the will of God concerning authorities? Psalm 1 talks about the individual and his relationship with God. That is preached. OK, so far so good. Psalm 2 talks about the authorities and God commanding them to submit to Christ. Basically SILENCE. How much clearer can you say it, that authorities must serve Jesus Christ. Instead of making Christ the leader of the country American Christians set up the American Flag in church? What? Is that your response to Psalm 2?
What Anti- Christians and most American Christians seem not to understand. IT IS NOT THE OFFICE of church and state that determines whether it is the Kingdom of the World or the Kingdom of God.
IT IS THE SPIRIT IN WHICH THE OFFICE IS EXECUTED.
If the political system is righteous, protecting the cause of the poor, free the oppressed, and profess Jesus to be Christ and King of Kings it is the SPIRIT of the kingdom of God. If there is unrighteousness, the rich are favored, the poor are forgotten, sins are legalized and Christ is not professed to be King of Kings it is the Kingdom of the World. Jesus has not preached about the good news of a new church or the good news of a new religion. He has preached the good news of a new Kingdom.
So one meaning of Jesus saying to the authority: My kingdom is not of this world. Is “I do not favor WallSt like you do; I obey God and His laws and speak up for the cause of the poor. I do not take the life of the poor but I give my life for the poor.” In His Kingdom the one with authority makes himself slave of others and not the one who helps enslave others. In Jesus kingdom the one with authority leads a modest life and speaks up for the cause of the poor AND HATES GIFTS and not the one who TAKES THE MOST GIFTS and this way wins the elections and speaks up for the cause of the rich. In His Kingdom the one with authority listens and stands up for Christ’s teachings and not for the wisdom of slave drivers and their partners.
The United States seems to be united in one thing so far by and large: Leave Jesus out of politics. And now two groups complain about the system that this has created: The tea party and OccupyWallSt.
Before you continue to reject Christ as King of Kings tell me one thing about His teachings you don’t like. Let’s have a vote for Christ the King. Use the comment for your vote. Or tell me what you don’t like about his teachings and this truth. Choose between the system of slave drivers or the one who made himself a slave of all and gave His life for them to free many.
(Here is the first part of Would would Jesus say about OccupyWallSt. http://occupywallst.org/forum/what-would-jesus-say-about-occupywallst/ )
Religion has no place in politics. That's not to say religious people don't. Certainly there is no wrong that can be found in "love your neighbor as yourself". The world would be a much better place if we all practiced it. The line is crossed though when "religion" or those that "God" speaks to are running the government based on commandments that they feel are the final authority.
Whether the government things it is final authority or not. They set the law and you have to obey. You have had the rule of no God in government for over 200 years and as I said it has always worked well for the rich. It is the Spirit that decided whether God is in the government. If their is justice also in the financial and economical areas. If the poor are take care of and not oppressed God's hand is in it anyways, because He is the only one that is truely and faithfully helping the oppressed who call on Him.
You know I've done a lot of thinking about this lately. I see how extremist Muslims use their religion to murder those outside their faith and am disgusted by it. I then recall my history lessons and the Crusades where Christians extremists did the same. When I think about it even further I remember the Children of Israel were told to kill every man, woman, child, and animal in the "Promise Land". This is recorded in the Holy Scriptures. Now I really have a time believing God is a God of genocide but it's right there in black and white. Sorry, no religion or crazy people justifying their actions by claiming God has empowered them in Government. End of Story.
End of Story. Be stuck with those who abuse God or His creation to rule to their favor. Look Jesus' biggest enemies were the religious leaders of His time. They were bringing Him to the cross. God is good and everyone doing evil has not seen Him. Look behind the outside. MONEY, GREED is a major base of abusing His name.
Or just look inside the Church at the Money, Greed and so on and so forth. The fact is atrocities throughout History have been committed in the name of religion including Christianity. Each and every one of them misled people and claimed God was on their side. Complete and total Garbage. Let's be real. Are you so sure that angels eons ago committed an unthinkable sin of failing to worship God and rather then wiping them out he let them roam the universe and at the creation of man allowed the worst one of all to tempt Eve into eating an apple. Now we know it's such a horrible sin to tempt God but He's ok with allowing man to be tempted by a being that should have been instantly destroyed? You can't ignore that Israel was commanded to commit genocide and destroy every living being and animal in the Promise Land. Really? There is a God sitting up there that commands something like that? It's crazy when the Muslims do it and it's crazy when you read it in black and white too. I'm not opposed to Faith and anyone practicing religion as long as it hurts no one else but you can't force anyone to follow it and you certainly have no right to subject anyone to a belief system if it isn't theirs. Practice your faith in the ways that you do good to others, there's no doubt you will be a better person for it, but don't even think others are subject to it.
Do you know that God promised Abraham to give him the land. But it was hundreds of years later that they got it. Why? Because had patience with the people there. But they would not want to change and after hundreds of years of patience, which is another point of ciritism against God, that He allows bad things to happen, - after so much patience it was over. When evil people commit atrocities then God is accused of letting it happen. When He acts He is accused of genocide. The truth is that no one can say that he has cleaned his heart and is free from sin. So sinful man need help: Sinful societies need help. But what is alternativ? How many countries which did not act in the name of God did evil things? Evil people abuse everything. Even the name of Christ.
I'm not buying the soap your selling. Like I said you should practice your religion but noone has a right to rule others with religion as their mandate. No greater possibility for evil exists above those claiming a higher power has empowered them and their actions.
God has the right. And God commands all people and governments to obey His King of Kings, Jesus Christ, whom He endorsed by raising Him from the dead.
You do realize that Christianity is not the only religion that makes that claim about the god they worship and seek to enforce their belief systems on others don't you?
It's easy to claim and all powerful being especially one that created us has the right to do what ever they want even right down to destroying us if he wants. Seems a bit egotistical and illogical to me. It also seems like a great way to control the masses. Obey these rules are be judged and condemned for eternity to pain and suffering. It also seems a great way for man to deal with his own mortality. "I'm not going to die at 70 and disappear I will live on and if I'm right with God it will be to forever praise and worship not pain and suffering." Come on does an all powerful god really need ants to worship and praise him for eternity? A bit ludicrous to me.
Many of the thoughts and concepts in scripture would indeed make for a better life for the one that practices them and those around him or her though.
It's a ridiculous notion to think God would need to create humans because he is lonely, in need of worship and ego stroking, or as a relief to boredom. Religion like anything comes down to faith and ones willingness to accept and believe. I have a hard time believing God commanded genocide at the hands of his chosen people to those occupying the land he promised to Abraham. I don't need to be told his ways are above my ways and I just don't have the capacity to understand. The fact is that act alone is inconsistent with other attributes God possesses. Oil can't mix with water and you can't mix unconditional love with control.
Why do you obey the government? I assume that you expect the government to obey the constituion. Why? Why has the government a right to command you what to do? They have not made you, the people of the government are just like you. They might be worse than you. Have less wisdom than you or let's sa a professor. So why should they obey them. There is no consent among the governed. There are only 15% or so who agree with the government. WHAT EVILS Have been commited by governments who do not submit to Christ. See all your logic is even worse for secular goverments. The true reason why you and me have to obey governments is because God has commanded us to do so and He has a right to do that.
The true reason we must obey the government is because you and I will be thrown in jail if we don't. Laws are supposed to be there for the protection of all but there are corrupt men and women that use and create them for their own gain. Laws are necessary unless you would rather live like apes. The problem is all laws don't always serve all people. Just the same Religion is a system to control the masses and force them to obey their governments at the commands of an all powerful God. The Incas, Vikings, Greeks, Romans so on and so forth were all under the same system of control. Today we are as well and maybe it's necessary to insure civilization survives. I think we all know the possibilities of evil among men knows no limits.
What would you say if someone steals a loaf of bread at WallMart and is thrown to jail for 60 years. And another man is killing his son and has to pay a fine of $200. You would cry out. Injustice and rightly so. The punishment must equal the destroyed good. A just system must have just punishments. Now if you kill someone deliberately it is just to take his life as well. People don't like it but not because of righteousness but of mercy. Another factor for a righteous punishment is what the other person has done to you. Let's say someone beats you up and burns your house and afterwards you burn his car your guilt is not as bad as if someone would have cared for you when you were homeless, he invited you to his house provided you with food and cloth, got a job for you and payed your medical expenses and then you dedicde to beat him up for fun.
So if you sin against earthly life the destroyed good is 70 years of earthly life. But if God sends Jesus to die for your sins so you can get forgiveness and get ETERNAL life than we have expanded the base. So if you then sin against this erernal life in a way that I will not describe here, but then you have sinned against eternal life and the just punishment must be eternal as well.
I don't believe Barney has ever made a biased, evil, or unrighteous statement either but a purple dinosaur isn't running our government. All in all to practice Christianity as it is in the Bible for the most part makes for a better world but slipped in amongst the good are rules and morals that aren't necessary to insure a world we can coexist in and they are slipped in under the guise of obey or face eternal damnation. Sorry the idea of a god that will punish men for eternity without absolute faith and obedience strikes me as likely being the invention of men that wanted to insure society didn't fall apart.
You are right. Because of evil humans we need governments. But is there one rightous? Is there anyone who can say that he has cleaned his heart and free from sin? You are right that power is abused. That is the very reason why God made Jesus Christ ruler of the world. Now before you object, tell me one thing Jesus said, that was bias, or evil or unrighteous?
Karl Marx, "On the Jewish Question: The Capacity of present-day Jews & Christians to Obtain Freedom
The Jew has emancipated himself in a Jewish manner, not only because he has acquired financial power, but also because, through him and also apart from him, money has become a world power and the practical Jewish spirit has become the practical spirit of the Christian nations. The Jews have emancipated themselves insofar as the Christians have become Jews.
Captain Hamilton, for example, reports:
The devout and politically free inhabitant of New England is a kind of Laocoön, who makes not the least effort to escape from the serpents which are crushing him. Mammon is his idol which he adores not only with his lips but with the whole force of his body and mind. In his view the world is no more than a Stock Exchange, and he is convinced that he has no other destiny here below than to become richer than his neighbor. Trade has seized upon all his thoughts, and he has no other recreation than to exchange objects. When he travels he carries, so to speak, his goods and counter on his back and talks only of interest and profit. If he loses sight of his own business for an instant it is only in order to pry into the business of his competitors.
Indeed, in North America the practical domination of Judaism over the Christian world has achieved as its unambiguous and normal expression that the preaching of the Gospel itself and the Christian ministry have become articles of trade, and the bankrupt trader deals in the Gospel just as the Gospel preacher who has become rich goes in for business deals.
The man who you see at the head of a respectable congregation began as a trader; his business having failed, he becomes a minister. The other began as a priest but as soon as he had some money at his disposal he left the pulpit to become a trader. In the eyes of very many people, the religious ministry is a veritable business career. (Beaumont)
Read more: http://666ismoney.com/Marx.html
Who do you think the Harlot Babylon is in Revelation?
Rome or any seat of government = the beast
The woman sits on the beast. So who is the woman?
me, lol . . . (I' don't know)
I don't either. I think she has a lot to do with money and trade.
Revelations 18 is very poetic and against "the merchants of the earth".
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+18&version=KJV
In the Old Testament there was a world trade center Tyre, which has a lot of of parallels to the Harlot in Revelation. Isaiah 23, Eze 26,27,28
Babylon was a center of trade and the jews learned to coin money there. In 66AD, under emperor nero the Jews revolted against Rome and started coining their own money, This was the beginning of the Jewish revolt against Rome. The "Revelation"/Apocalypse was written around this time hence, "No one buys or sells without the MONEY of the beast on/in mind/hand." -- Apocalypse 13:18
http://www.flickr.com/photos/666_is_money/3046110725
So you think that money is the sign of Rev 13?
yeah, 666=money. They mistranslated the work "mark" (of the beast), it should be MONEY of the beast:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/666_is_money/3046110725
For some reason Matthais I can't respond to ur post so I will here: Beast = Rome/Nero but can represent any babylonian commerce. Small horns had meaning when the Revelation was written.
But money has been around for such a long time. So who is the beast and the small horn according to you.
Jesus drove the money changers from the Temple. That's what we have to do.
http://video.google.nl/videoplay?docid=-515319560256183936 The Money Masters - currently occupying our temple (our world) and making it a total disgrace.
But He drove them out of the temple, not the court of the temple. We should become worshippers in the temple.
Yes, I agree.
Thanks, for the link in your post. I started watching. I did not know the Federal Reserve is privately owned.
Good luck, it's a long movie, but take your time to watch it - it offers a basic framework for understanding what's really at the bottom of everything you see today. I sure helped me a lot...
Do you know about the Mystery Babylon in the book of Revelation in the Bible. She is corrubpting the world?
Well, what I do know is that the real power behind today's mess has deep roots that date back to ancient times. And that all members are related by blood lines. It's just a bunch of occult inbreds that rules the world. They love the dark and hate the light.
But I'd gladly read what you're referring to, where can I find it?
It is in the book of revelation, the last book of the Bible, chapter 17, 18, beginning of 19.
Are these people in politics really religious or are they wolves in sheep clothing. i have never heard any of them going to church or praying. Even if you put religion in politics you are going to cause more suffering and confusion because these wolves will cause people to do unpure things in the name of greed and power anyways. Personally I don't know about you but I don't want people being lead astray even worse than they already are in this society. Besides your quarl is with the international money lenders who are the most evil creatures in society. Send them bibles convert them because most of their souls are damned. When the love of money is a person's God I think that they are creating the most unholy sin in the world.
You are brought up a valid thought. Will people get worse when we bring religion into politics? The key is to bring true followers of Christ into politics who have gifts, do not seek to please man but God, who cares for the poor and them to be protected. But of course we face a problem. A democracy entices politicians to please a majority of voters and not a righteous gracious God.
The reply button is gone again. Seems like a majority
What do you think will happen to our world?
I think it all depends on where we are in God's plan. If the downfall of the mystery Babylon is at hand, I expect the angel of Rev 18 to come
What will this look like?
Rev 18:1 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory.
I hope he comes soon. We need that. I light in this darkness.
So will the angel be a preacher?
Somhow the reply link disappeard. So I answer up hear. I think that God's laws can be put into "law". There is a huge ignorance of what these laws are. Some people think that if a government puts Gods law into practise they will rule over their faith.
It is true that the name of God was abused to rule over the faith of individuals but the common error is to ascribe this abuse to God.
Exactly. God is good and all His laws are good. The punishment of the fool is His stupidity. If a government does not obey God's good laws they open up for unrighteousness and then you reap what you sow.
The intersting thing is that people reject the help that would get them out. They are upset about WallSt but the help of God they do not seek. WHy is that?
I think that they do not want ot submit to God eiter,
I understand that because I refused to submit to God for a very long time. I lvoed the world and I did not want to give up my life
Yeah we humans are bad and shun good.
But what about those revivals in the USA when masses of people repented. Were they not bad either and rufes to come to God before repentance?
Yeah there was a town where the last people stoped gathering for worship. The bars were full and the pews empty.
What happened then?
Charles Finney, a preacher, started preaching and the people repented.
How many repented?
Jesus would and did say to "render unto Caesar what is Caesar's "
Please help me because I have had that comment before but I do not understand the connection to what I was saying. Please take the time and explain it. Thanks
Well, I can try to explain, but feel free to disregard my words....
Money is specifically what Jesus was telling people to give to Caesar. (Side note, Caesar was the first person to put his own head on a coin). Give to Caesar the gold coins with Caesars head upon it. The people were complaining that they had to pay taxes to the Roman Empire, and Jesus told them to pay their taxes.
In the modern day version, the poor and rich are still divided and the rich still want our money. So I guess it would mean: give the money to the rich. If money is what the rich want, then give them money. The rich can have no power over the poor if the poor do not envy the rich or if the poor do not hold value in what the rich holds value. So lets give the money to the rich, and have the poor not worry about it. The reward for the poor is far greater. Put stock in that which is not monetary. Allow the rich to do as they will, and allow the people to do as they will.
There is a big problem with this. Most people do not truly believe in Christ or Christ's teachings, or that there will be a "reward" in the afterlife. So they DO envy the rich. In envy of the rich, the paradigm of the rich is perpetually repeated. I think its mighty time we based our society around something other than money. If we want to move away from the paradigm of the rich in our present moments.
Just some thoughts...not sure what anyone else meant by the quote
Accroding to my knowledge God instituted governments to punish evil and reward good. They must protect the people from oppression and speak up for the cause of the oppressed. For doing this job they get the money. God has also commanded not to take interest and no bonuses or increase. He has commanded the rich to help the poor. Now Caesar is doing a job for which he gets money. If the rich take out too much more than is lawful than I think the vers you quoted does not refer to this situation. However I think yout point is good, that as an individual you should turn the other cheek. Or if some takes your shirt give him your coat as well. But we live in democracies and we also play part of the role of authorities. OccupyWallSt is calling for the authorities to bring justice. Voters have the right to do so. Therefore I do not agree with a statement that it is all about envy. It is about justice as well. The pope of Rome took out money from the people by selling them kind of salvation. Martin Luther brought this evil to the public and freed many many people. He was envious but seeking truth and righteousness. What do think about this thought.
Very interesting. But at this point, I'm not sure if I agree that Caesar used his coffers any better than the current gov't is using theirs. Which I think is something you alluded to, that Caesar used his money for the protection of the people and to end oppression. In fact, our gov't uses money better since 2cents of every tax dollar goes to foreign aid and supports a plethora of human rights programs around the globe. As far as I know, Caesar did not do this for people who were not Roman. Caesar conquered people who were not Roman and stole their money to add to his own coffers.
As for your point about justice and democracies, I agree for the most part. We have all played a role in the development of our current world system, and I would definitely not say that it is All About Envy, I believe there is definitely justice involved. My point was rather that perhaps, like Martin Luther, we only seek to add more evil to the public if we try to "redistribute" wealth. Rather, leave wealth to the wealthy, and occupy our times with more meaningful directives. If we did not continue buying from the Rich in an attempt to excel our own lives, we would not be endorsing rape or murder in the Congo, China, Mexico, Columbia, and any number of other places that suffer due to American Consumerism. I do really love your example with the Pope and Martin Luther, really made me think :)
When I try to transfer the principle of Martin Luther to our time I think that one reason that WallSt get away is that the truth about a righteous ecomomy is lost. I think mainly because Christ was removed from goverment which started to a great deal with the revolutions in France and America. WallSt looses its justification for the riches if the truth come out. But so far I have not seen much response. I think another very important truth is God is the true source of a decent economy on this earth. He makes a desert to a florishing country. A turns a florishing country to a desert. He takes care of the birds and the people. But the thought that man are the source of wealth gave them huge power.
What would Bugs Bunny say. 2011 and people still embrace the Jesus delusion. SAD. WWW.FUCKOBAMA2012.COM
So if God raises a humanfrom the dead and there are hundreds of witnesses and the teaching of this person has grown into all the world you don't see anything special. Like humans rise from the deat every other year.
African Man in Germany I remember you hope you are well. Cute little babies are crying themselves to sleep in Africa WHERE IS GOD? Tell you a story I just want to get away from it all I cannot drive so I need to live near the shops or near public transport. must be 6 or 7 months ago I emailed churches in France,Spain,Italy looking for advice on finding a monastery that take people in peace and quiet away from a sick world. Must have emailed over 200 churches 3 replied 2 told me they would pray for me one said they could not help me. WONDERFUL PEOPLE CHRISTIANS
I can give you an address of a kind of colony in Great Britain where Christian want to live in brotherly love. I met them 2 months ago or so. Tell me if you want to have the address. Jesus suffered death for this world. He endured it to set up a new Kingdom which is amongst us already. Don't give up hope. Jesus knows the suffering and is willing to help the broken hearted. Write again.
Good luck with things but if you and I lived in the same room for 50 years I would still not believe in Jesus. Also a woman I once thought I would grow old with took a lot of money that should have gone to charity. Emailed 60 or 70 churches in this womans home state 2 wanted to pray. Good luck if you are in Berlin have fun great city.
I am sorry that you have such bad experience. Good luck to you , too. Farewell
Thanks and if you ever come across any Christians with fire in their hearts please be so kind as to point them in my direction. I would expect people with fire in their hearts to be morally outraged at a woman stealing from charity. To so many people the whole I am a Christian thing is just words. WWW.CHRISHEPBURN.COM
I can see that your a very disappointed by men. But have you ever considered coming to Jesus? Now Jesus says:
Mat 11:28-30 Come to me, all you who are troubled and weighted down with care, and I will give you rest. (29) Take my yoke on you and become like me, for I am gentle and without pride, and you will have rest for your souls; (30) For my yoke is good, and the weight I take up is not hard.
Good luck
I asked you a question?
Jesus only compliments the rich one time in the Bible. He bitch slaps them in every other sense, basically saying they will not go to heaven. When you hate the poor you basically hate Jesus.
Thanks for the comment. So are you joining the ranks with me and proclaim Him righteous ruler over the country?
I'm no fundamentalist, if that is what you mean.
I am not so much into categorizing. What I mean is that you agree that the world must turn to Jesus Christ and learn from Him including the governments and then the world will learn peace and righteousness and the end of WallSt and other evil oppressive things has come.
They can worship a rock as long as they agree with the movements.
So you do not believe that Jesus is the Son of God and the one God has given the throne to rule the world.
I believe in keeping that belief in my darkened closet.
Why? If it is good it would help others. If it is bad why do you have it?
Jesus has good pr, don't worry.
No I get curious. So you believe but you don't talk about. Maybe you don't want others to know?
I want people to think for themselves.
Well I see your point. But isn't almost all knowledge the result of people communicating and expanding their knowledge with the information of the other side?
Jesus has an opinion like everyone else in a democracy. The same free speech laws should apply to him as they do to everyone else. There is no place for a theocracy in a democracy, though. As far as I am concerned, it is ok to be religious and to base one's opinions on a religious foundation. We all have a foundation of sorts.
TRUE CHRISTIANS (I think Sartre would have called them "authentic" Christians), are very rare today. Few people who call themselves Christians actually live the life that Jesus did. When was the last time you actually saw a self-proclaimed Christian operate like this:
LUKE 22: 24Also a dispute arose among them as to which of them was considered to be greatest. 25Jesus said to them, “The kings of the Gentiles lord it over them; and those who exercise authority over them call themselves Benefactors. 26But you are not to be like that. Instead, the greatest among you should be like the youngest, and the one who rules like the one who serves. 27For who is greater, the one who is at the table or the one who serves? Is it not the one who is at the table? But I am among you as one who serves. 28You are those who have stood by me in my trials. 29And I confer on you a kingdom, just as my Father conferred one on me, 30so that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom and sit on thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
If businesses actually tried to serve their workers rather than exploit them, we might be closer to the life Christ envisioned for us. Have you ever felt like a business was trying to build you up, to actualize your human potential? It happens, but very rarely. The business takes on a life of its own, lacking spirit and love, like HAL of 2001 A Space Oddysey, and will do what it can to ensure your continued existence absent any concern for the people who built it. Jesus' message has largely been distorted and manipulated to edify a violent and inhuman institution that is more of this earth than some heavenly ideal.
I like your point about the business. Do they serve profit or the wellbeing of the people. Take candy at the cash registry. Why? Are we not fat enough. But here you see that men are unable to be independent. They serve someone. Jesus said you cannot serve both God and profit. But because there is a God who did send Jesus CHrist and raised Him form the dead not SERVING GOD means idolatry and this way a lie.
I like your other point. There is no place for a Theocracy in a democravy. You are right. We will have a Theocracy because the democracies will either destroy themselves eventually or been transformed into Democracy. Democracies will not work because they have not been able to set up righteousness. As OccupyWallSt found out. The rich rule over the poor. The system is rigged because people are bad. NOw in a democracy the people rule. So if there is no one who can say, I have cleaned my heart I am free of sin, there are sinful people ruling with sinful ideoligies that work for some and leave out the others.
"More Fish!"
More Fish? What do you mean? If you refer to the miracle Jesus performed that fed thousands of people. Good point.
Christ is not King of Kings or the dictator of America, because religions have been shown to oppress the people who do not believe in that faith. We need to base our decisions on sound logic and not arcaic texts from two thousand years ago. Not to bash anyone's spirituality, because spirituality is something that has naturally been part of human societies. But the organization of faith and systematic oppression has to go down in the history books.
lulz. Okay, apply that to government. Any history of organization and systematic oppression there??
Of course governments have oppressed people through the ages, but I'm not going to replace one form of oppression for another. And as a side note, goverments in the past have always adopted a national religion, so was it the governments oppressing the people or the culture propagated through religion? I don't have an answer but there is definitely a correlation between religion in government and systematic oppression of the masses. That's why they should be broken up..
How many churches in the United States have bombed anyone?
Government can use anything they want for any purpose they want. Religion is a great smokescreen, but they'd happily bomb people without it. If they claim to be "christian" but then don't follow any principles of christianity, are they christians? How many feathers do I have to stick in my ass to be a chicken?
I agree if you look at it superfically. But as I said 76% of Americans say they are Christians and now you have WallSt and debt and a mess. A Christian is someone who obeys Christ. Now in the main prayer of Christians it is said. Forgive us our debt as we forgive those who are endebted against us. Do you see that? Are they obeying Christ? Debt everywhere you look?
I still find it hard to believe that our politicains all believe in Jesus. Roughly 15% of Americans are considered Atheist or Agnostic so it's statistically improbable that every politician is a Christian. This is oppression at it's finest. Atheists, whether they are right or wrong, don't even get a voice in politics.
I think you miss the point. It is Jesus who help you out. He would set up a system that would be fair and oppression will be gone. But you insist on leaving Him out and this justify the government to do the same.Now they are free to favor WallSt which they could not do with Christ. The only time He got violent in the Gospels was when He drove out the money changers. Make you country His temple and He will drive out the money changers.
Good post. Would be much better if I believed in God. Anyway, we are screwed either way.
We are all unbelieving or have a lack of faith that God is good and He offers good things. Instead we turn to the World that is selfish and we suffer. Start with a prayer. Read the Gospel and you will see what God has to offer. My friend, God will reward you when you seek him.
I will not be enslaved by any god or government.
Please take a moment and think about the situation of the 99%. Who is enslaving them. Do you not realize that it is not God. He wants the people to be free. Who caches in big times when the 99% loose homes, jobs and money. Is it God? Why do you go against the one who wants to give you freedom?
Take your god and shove him up Jesus' ass. Fuck off with your bullshit.
What makes you so mad?
No comment. Can't argue with irrational people, it's not worth it. God is obsolete.
Saw this somewhere "dog is god"
If you read what I have written on this topic you know I'm opposed to what Matthias suggests but your reply to him is neither intelligent or called for. Intolerance is as dangerous as fanaticism.
But some people say that the Founding Fathers were Christians
As I have written 76% of American nowadays say that are Christians too. The pope in Martin Luther's time was saying very pious things every day. But by the fruits you will know who is acting in the Spirit of God.
By I was always taught the USA is land of the free.
The debtor is the servant of the lender. How many young people have to start our their adult life terribly in debt. They are not free. How many Americans are in debt? Debt and interest a sure way to grow richer.
I see your point. Afterall the slaves were not free at all. But what can you do against debt?
God commanded to not give money on interest. It is that easy.
You wrote that 76% of Americans say they are Christians. Why do they not write that into law?
Maybe they do not love God enough to do that.
Jesus says that if you love me you obey my commandments. But I think people are not even aware of this commandment or that is has something to do with government.
I agree in the USA Christian children are taught that the US system is full of wisdom and somehow from God.
I think the problem is a lack of wisdom, a lack of understanding of the beauty of God's law.
They (laws of god) can only be implemented if society as a whole voluntarily submits to the power structure it seeks to emplace.
I have heard a pastor said that in his seminary the students talked about what those laws of God mean for the society. They concluded that they cannot be implemented. What do you think?
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What do you mean? Please explain. Thanks
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Just like Alexandre the Great, Caesar, Constantine the Great, Abraham Lincoln. So the people of history are imagination because you don't see them? Is that so?
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WHat about the Gospel of Luke, Mathew, Mark and John. The were timewitnesses.
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According to my knowledge at the time you write about it was determined what documents a part of the Bible.
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The Torah, the Old Testament exsisted before that. Just the prophecies alone would be enought to prove what the life of Jesus would be. A often occuring line of Jesus was. As it is written. So the New Testament is in the line of the Old. The date of birth, time of brith, way of death, purpose of death and many other things were prophecied in documents that exsisted before Jesus.
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Critical thinking brought me Christ. Because only the truth is consistent and logic.
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I have experienced that before. That persons like you are vehemently opposed to the Christian faith were educated in it maby even thoroughly. So hopefully you will come back. Of course you know the story of the prodical son.
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I think we get not any further. I wish you all the best. Farewell
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Why are you so opposed to Jesus Christ?
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The truth!
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I think that it is not important whether something is on paper, because any false prophet can put it on paper. Take Joseph Smit the founder of the Mormons. Only because he put it on paper does not make it true.
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Chrsitianity is a living witness. It is the HOly Spirit who has no died who witnesses to people. It is not paper but the willingness of a person to do the will of God that is the condition of believing the message.
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Christianity is based on the witness of people speaking in the Holy Spirit. Jesus was the ultimate witness. He said to the people that He does not speak out of Himself to His own honor. He only says what Hes sees God speak. They hated Him for that, because they were not as good just seeking God's honor. Jesus said that if His listeners are willing to do the will of God they will see that He does not speak out Hiself but in the name of God. The point is that even if there documents it would not necessarily convince people that He is a prophet speaking in the name of God. This is key. Key to knowing that it is from God, is being willing to do His will.
This is America and we should all be free to have and follow our own beliefs where ever we are and what ever we do. If those in government or society want to use Christ as their basis for decision making let them, if others do not want to hold to any religious practices/views allow that also.
To me separation of Church and State goes against what it stands for....state demands church views be kept out of state thus the state sticking its nose into church thus not separating church and state, if that makes sense. I do not feel we should wash Christ out of Government or State issues or practices, however I do not feel we should wash ANY religious or NON religious views out of Government or State or ANYWHERE. I say to each his own, let every individual represent and speak what they believe or do not believe and let State TRULY separate themselves from Church/Religious/Non Religious views.
You defend the system OccupyWallSt wants to change. Don't you see that it is this very thinking that justifies the government in not implementing God's law that would PROTECT YOU from WallSt. I see such a blindness when it comes to the real friend of people who are oppressed by WallSt.
I defend the Government NOT sticking its nose in mine or others personal beliefs.....they currently do that too much alread and stick their noses in other places it does not belong as well. I love Jesus Christ but I DO NOT feel it is MY duty or GOVERNMENTS duty to force any beliefs upon the people!!! For Government officials to act upon and express their own beliefs fine, just dont demand others follow suite. I feel those in Government should be free to express and make decisions based upon their own individual beliefs however I dont need government to implement or demand I follow God's or any others law to protect me when I have God himself right here in my heart and life protecting me every day no matter where my Government stands on Religious or Political issues. Thanks ;-) And no one can claim to know who is a "real friend" or not, you are not judge....God is. ;-)
Thanks for your reply. But the devil is source of confusion. You confuse the government ruling over your faith and the government executing those things that God commands them to do. God does not want the government to rule over you. But He want the government to protect the poor against greedy rich. He has laws for this.
Like I said I am not opposed to Government being pro God and pro Gods law if they so chose, but it should be THEIR choice individually. Yes it would be nice in my opinion if those who ruled over us followed the law of God, but it should NOT be required or demanded of them. Those in government and in society should always be free to choose their own beliefs or disbeliefs. God himself does not force us to follow him, so why should government or anyone else force us. It is this freedom of choice that God has given us that makes loving him a genuine act.
What about your constitution? Do you have the same thoughts. That the government should not be forced to obey the constitution. They should be free to obey it. Or what about the voters. Should government listen to the voters or to what they promised the voters. Or should they be free to do whatever they like. But here you see that it actually looks this way. You want to hold the government accountable. Why. Should they not be free. And now you have a constitution written by British subjects who decided to do what they want. They didn't want to obey the King anymore, didn't want to pay taxes anymore and in the name of liberty and justice for all they kept slaves. Have you ever thought about it means to be a slave. You cannot even determine one day of you life what you want to do without the will of a person. Admit it that you want the govenrment to be accountable to your Constitution. But you don't want the government to be acountable to a law that is not flawed but perfectly wise and righteous. Please read Psalm 2. Look what God expects the governments to do. ANd is it not His right since He created everything. And because He loves the world He want the government to obey Him because His laws a are just and not bias.
And look at history and the governments before who claimed to base their laws and actions on the word of God...They too were often crooked and about doing things utterly NOT of God and wicked, so clearly having a Government that says they follow Gods law is neither here nor there in reguards to a healthy happily run society. It is true democracy which gives all...government and the people, the right to speak their minds and have their voices count leading to a majority consensus that is most likely of all to be in the best interest of the people. So therefore yes I would like my government to follow the constitution because it is what the majority agrees with which is fair and democratic.
First of all the constitution does not live to its own standard. Slaves were excluded from voting and women as well. Today it does not live up to its own standatd either. The approval rating for Congree is WAY below 50%. What is it right now 15%. The elections in the US is a system where the individual ends up voting for 2 people who most often happen to have the most money.
The core problem of governments is hypocricy. It does not matter what they official claim. Some claim to base on the Word of God. Others on the promises that made before the election. It comes down to what they actually do and whoes will they do at the end of the day. If you look at the commandments of God a government that would obey them would be great for the people.
So it does not depend on lip service of governments who they profess to serve. The people or God. It depends on what they do.
Reality is that all men are flawed and as much as you may want a government who truly follows the word of God, it just simply is never going to happen. Not to mention that each person interprets the word of God a lil differently. So I guess I just dont see your point.
How many prophecies of the Bible have come true? Hundreds. Big ones as the prophecies of all the world powers to come after Daniel. Daniel prophecied the exact sequence of the following world powers. He lived in the Babylonian empire. After that was the Medo Persion, then the Greek with Alexandre the Great and the Rome. God is telling what He is going to do to His prophets. The prophecies are a fact and the history has proved them right. Now there are still prophecies left to be fulfilled. I tell you one:
Isa 2:2-4 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. (3) And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. (4) And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. There are others who talk about a time to come when people will rule in the SPIRIT of Christ and the world will have peace. Do you long for that, too?
No reply link under your last statement...so posting on this one....Its ok for God to say that government should rule as he commands, but I just dont think it is going to do any good to protest ourselves that government should follow God because we are clearly in a day and time when this simply will not happen. To each his own. If you feel like Gods calling you to speak out then who am I to judge, im not judging just giving you my opinion on the effectiveness of this approach and my opinion as a whole on the matter you posted. OWS supports democracy, your voice and opinion has a right to be heard, such as mine and all others do. I will do and act as I feel led by God, and you are free to do the same. As well are all others free to not believe or support what you or I feel. I feel this debate between you and I has come to an end and I thank you for sharing your thoughts and opinions with me. May the Lord bless you and keep you, may the lord make his face shine upon you and give you peace. Take good care.
May He bless you too. Thank you for your thoughts. It was good to talk to you.
The prophecies of the bible do state that the world will become corrupt, leading to a one world government, currency, etc. So I guess I dont understand the point of protesting that it be otherwise...It will come to pass whether we want it to or not...if the bible is what you believe....I only see it our job to live as Christ and love as Christ to the best of our ability. Spreading the message of God is good, however posting that America needs to follow the word of God will have no real impact...as I said if your a bible believer you know this is how things will play out. Of course I long for peace and as a personal believer in Christ I look forward to the day when Christ rules eternal....Im just saying that to protest and argue that America or other countries follow the law of God is unfortunately futile...But for some who do not believe I say it is their God given right to be unbeliever or believers in other religions. God is judge...he will deal with us all as he sees fit, its not my job to sholve it down their throats. God does not force himself upon us. It says to go into all the world and proclaim the gospel but it does not say to force it upon those who are not wanting or wishing to receive it, that too is futile...Unless a person is ready or wanting to hear and receive...they will not receive no matter how badly someone wishes it. My motto is try my best to live it as a living testimony, if someone is interested in hearing then share it. If someone is desiring to discuss it in a healthy debate fashion without taking offense then sure hold a fair debate, but arguing with people about God, or forcing his word upon them will only turn them off to God which is the opposite of what we want. People need the message of Gods love and acceptance more than judgment....let God do that part.
I am German and I live in Germany. Martin Luther was one of famoust German theologians. His preaching against the 1% of His time brought great change in Europe. The corrupt power of the church of Rome was broke. ONE Imortant backing he received was by German rulers who IN THE NAME OF THE WORD of the Bible sided with him and broke with the rest also politically. It is not right what you say that God commandment to rulers to obey Him is forcing religion down the throat of people. It is simply wrong. Where does God command the rulers to do so. But you as a believer must also recognize Psalm 2 which clearly says that the rulers are supposed to obey HIm. Why is that forcing religion down the throat?