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Forum Post: What is Better Individualism (Amsterdam or European Style), Collectivism, Community Censure, Community Review of Adults

Posted 1 year ago on Oct. 14, 2012, 3:10 a.m. EST by Middleaged (5140)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

Freedom and Liberty What is Better Individualism (Amsterdam Style or European Style), Collectivism, Community Censure, Adults Managed by Community Review-governmental body Review-religious authority Review?

There is a decision Point for all Striving peoples, critical to political freedom

The question starts out small dealing with one persons liberty. But the questions expand to a whole country's right to explore and find its own future. One term seems to help, Self-Determination.

I'm dealing with the contrast between community activism in the extreme end where adults might be turned over to authorities for smoking marijuana or drinking alcohol everyday.

On the other side would be where adults are treated with respect and allowed to find their destiny (self deterimination) as long as they didn't come to the attension of the law. But in my view adults have human frailties, there is a wide range of behavior, and the community should not attempt to interfere/manage adults in most cases as long as there are no victims. There is no such thing as consensual crimes.

But I don't have the answer. This maybe a gray area rather than black and white.

What are the Paradigms?

1) Religious, the church doctrine and church authroity determine your fate.
2) Law, performance metrics and employee ratings mean if you have violated the law in any way - you will be prosecuted and authorities will determine if you can keep your kids, lose your job, go to jail, pay fines, perform community service, be evaluated for insanity, treatment, guardianship, removal of individual rights, and institutionalisation.
3) An Education Paradigm, help the person, educate, theoropy, physical theropy, nutritional theorpy, social skills training.
4) Alternative to many pregnancies, males and females can contribute to society through writing, creating documents, and the influence of society by continuing eduation, higher learning, and university work.
5) Jail or Prison.
6) Netherlands or Denmark style democracy. People are seen as human, or at worse sick or deviant, but are given autonomy and the right to self-determination.
7) A segment of Europe believe we are all Humans with the right to live our lives with minimal interference regardless of whether the human believes in Christianity (religious freedom), believes in Democracy (political freedom), is of a certain race or nationality (Equality and freedom of migration), Sexual Preference, Sexual Orientation, and Sexual Interest (sexual freedom), and freedom to harm yourself, live your life, chose your own path in life, explore philosophy, explore the meaning of life without predominant religion approval, explore your sexuality, explore alternative ideologies, explore alternative political systems, explore the history of man and the history of the current political system, explore the background of current political leaders, and explore the world of ideas, books, philosphy, ideology, and radical thought without being abused or harrassed or being charged with crime.

Do you prefer Individualism rather than tribal/group importance? I lean toward individualism. Have you ever been around Small Churches and Small Towns.

Maybe I'm a rebel, but thinking about this makes me believe I am an Individualist or should be an individualist. Do you want people in your business? Do you want all your bad habits spread in the community or work place. This is the fear I think. You may have a social problem or medical marijuana or drink lots of alchol or be interested in alternative political theory. Today's political environment or ...governmental... says all you landlords, all your coworkers, all your creditors, all your business contacts have a right to know... about what they feel are your social problems.

The Fear is that your Country or Community tell you what to believe. Your community probably won't encourage you to explore ideology, political systems, US History, US Covert History, US Damage to foreign governments, etc.

You will be astounded and Enlightened if you start looking up political terms in Wikipedia. Self Determination is not just a principal for Countries. If we as individuals try to become Self Actualized, we certainly want the Right of Self-Determination. And who has the right to interfere or chose our political system?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-actualization
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-determination

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Individualism

Individualism is the moral stance, political philosophy, ideology, or social outlook that stresses "the moral worth of the individual".[1] Individualists promote the exercise of one's goals and desires and so value independence and self-reliance[2] while opposing external interference upon one's own interests by society or institutions such as the government.[2]

What is the Threat to Freedom and Liberty

1) Loss of Individual Rights.
2) Loss of Media impartiality.
3) Loss of Impartiality of Politicians.
4) Loss of Economic Freedom.
5) Loss of Representative Government.
6) Lobby for Corporations.
7) Lobby of Wealthy.
8) Control of Educational Instituations.
9) Loss of Legislation that Protects Common People.
10) Loss of Support of the Church (where are they?)
11) Loss of Watchdogs like Ratings Agencies, Independent Audit Agencies.
12) Corruption of US Banking and by extension Global Financial System.
13) Invention of Shadow Banking which is unregulated, a system of unrelulated financial Instruments which will determine the future of the US Dollar and the wealth of common US people through deflation of the US Dollar.
14) Threat of Ignorance, that we don't know finance, don't know business, don't understand that power can rule this country and government, don't understand how the US dollar can be devaluated, don't understand the greed that lives in the hearts of men that can add up to looting corporations and the Entire USA including municipalities, counties, states.
15) Ignorance of the many Financial Schemes that are viewed as benefitial, but which drain dollars from house holds through social implications, safety nets, devaluation, and direct taxes.

38 Comments

38 Comments


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[-] 6 points by Middleaged (5140) 1 year ago

Click on my profile. I have done my duty to this nation. I have researched the Financial situation in th USA ... and I have looked at the political situation. Maybe I'm not a team player, but in this forum I have posted information to lead young people toward understanding. Perhaps now I can leave the US and live n a foriegn country.

Those of you with love and family will remain in the US to live your lives. That is just the way it is.

The US is not the country we thought it was. Clearly the US is not the Model for the world of a good nation. We have more in common with the Catholic Church or an European Empire. But...I'm pretty sure this is an old model. I'm sure that Europeans have had to deal with the clay feet of Europe. I'm sure that Catholics have to learn to accept their own history of aggression, domination, and murder.

It is just the Time for the US to understand its Corruption and Guilt.

Some Strategy is coming to truth. Some strategy laid the way for the US to fall as a guilty, corrupt, untrustable, unhonerable nation.

There is no Honor as an North American, as an USA Citizen any more. Except that we were an Economic Powerhouse, a Rich nation of Jobs, a shining light of the Industrial Revolution.

[-] 2 points by arturo (3169) from Shanghai, Shanghai 1 year ago

Interesting, what countries are you considering? Having lived abroad for the past three years, I've met numerous Americans who've made the same choice that you are making. There's an entire world out there.

I agree about America going the same road as the Catholic church and European empires. I believe the basic foundation of America is good, that is, the constitution, but that our institutions have been dangerously subverted.

Many nations around the world today are rejecting the imperialist approach adopted by America today, many in South America and in Asia. Having experienced living on both continents, I've found that it is easier for an American to make a living in Asia.

[-] 2 points by Middleaged (5140) 1 year ago

Today I'm thinking again about Asia. I was kicking around ideas about Central & South America. People are people and most are nice family people. But maybe Asia combines safety, culture, progress, and civilization.

[-] 2 points by arturo (3169) from Shanghai, Shanghai 1 year ago

Yes, but unfortunately, no where is safe today. Asia has been effected by the western economic downturn for some time now, and it will keep getting worse until the problem is solved through a Glass Steagall financial restructuring program, as well as a New Deal style economic recovery program.

[-] 2 points by Middleaged (5140) 1 year ago

There is an author that put together a book to help choose a country and look for the advantages and disavantages. She recommended Malaysia and Thailand. But wonder how Malaysia is after that video on the internet went around.

[-] 0 points by Barfnow (-16) 1 year ago

If you truly feel this way why do you still live in this country?

[-] 1 points by Middleaged (5140) 1 year ago

First tell me if you have any context to put that question in. Have you ever lived out of this country? Have you traveled out of this country?

What stage of life are you in, what demographic?

I'm able to leave, but I have a lot of "stuff", and having some difficulty with 4-5 different countries to visit deciding where to start, what air ticket to buy, how to plan multiple country visits at the same time, etc. And most countries have multiple climates, beach shore & big city, there are many bits of info to consider.

[-] 4 points by Underdog (2971) from Clermont, FL 1 year ago

If I am understanding you correctly, that is a pretty good and detailed description of the age-old battle between the individual and the state, the individual and the collective. Unfortunately for Liberal/Progressive thought, this is a Center-Right country steeped in the Judeo-Christian influence (even those who are complete atheists are heavily influenced by the culture just by growing up in it). Perhaps by better mass-education, and after several generations, we might see the country move to Center-Left. That would be my hope.

[-] 3 points by Middleaged (5140) 1 year ago

Thanks. You seem to have followed my thought well. It doesn't have to be religious oriented, but that is just how the activity presents itself in the US.

Have you seen other posts that have solutions for secular and politically neutral Education.?

William K. Black is still a professor, so there is hope. But money probably has a lot of seduction for corrupting people and those that might go into teaching. Perhaps men have a harder time resisting taking money to help their families...they would be willing to pay the game or join a scheme to accect extra money for career choices.

I didn't write too much about the Collective since I have not read anything. I have read a bit about communism and the drama that resulted in purges after revolutions in China and Russia. Star Trek to me seems to be the best definition of the Collective.

[-] 3 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

Some important ideas here. A valuable discussion as well.

I am an atheist and have some concern regarding how religion is misused in our culture.

But a great post.

Thx

[-] 1 points by Middleaged (5140) 1 year ago

Thanks

[-] 2 points by shadz66 (18004) 1 year ago

Captain Jean-Luc Picard : "The economics of the future is somewhat different. You see, money doesn't exist in the 24th century."

Lily Sloane (21st Century human) : "No money ? You mean, you don't get paid ?"

Captain Jean-Luc Picard : "We work to better ourselves."

per aspera ad astra ...

[-] 2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

Aaah!

The reason so many have gravitated to Gene Roddenberry's Star Trek.

No racism, no exploitation, no sexism. If only.

[-] 2 points by shadz66 (18004) 1 year ago

"If only" indeed ~*~ ..

per ardua ad astra ...

[-] 1 points by Middleaged (5140) 1 year ago

Much better than working for a Pension.

[-] 2 points by shadz66 (18004) 1 year ago

Lol & the dialogue above came from 'Star Trek : First Contact' (1996).

ad astra ...

[-] 0 points by Barfnow (-16) 1 year ago

The Borg?

[-] 1 points by Middleaged (5140) 1 year ago

yep

[-] 3 points by ChristopherABrown (550) from Santa Barbara, CA 1 year ago

"The US is not the country we thought it was." We must know the constitution and see that it is upheld before we can say what we thought it was or even complain it's not like we expect. I've made a thread about an aspect of this at the articlevconvention.org forum.

http://articlevconvention.org/showthread.php?59-Apprehending-Constitutional-Intent-Our-Challenge

It is natural to be disappointed when your dream has been hijacked and sabotage. However, the ideal of the dream is still an inspiration that can lead. In this case, to becoming the "rightful masters of the congress and the courts" (Lincoln 1859). By knowing and sharing, refining our understanding of constitutional intention the disapointment with the United States of America is over.

TV/media has been running 2 generations of Americans so it looks real bad now, but, with understanding, we can share information needed for survival, then we can adapt and continue.

[-] 3 points by Middleaged (5140) 1 year ago

I'm surprised you didn't recommend reading the Federalist Papers or other documents by people that signed and created the Constitution and the 1st 10 Amendments. Looks like there are 80 of these Essays located on Wikipedia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federalist_Papers

According to historian Richard B. Morris, they are an "incomparable exposition of the Constitution, a classic in political science unsurpassed in both breadth and depth by the product of any later American writer."[3]

In Federalist No. 39, Madison presents the clearest exposition of what has come to be called "Federalism".

  • Alexander Hamilton (51 articles: nos. 1, 6–9, 11–13, 15–17, 21–36, 59–61, and 65–85)
  • James Madison (26 articles: nos. 10, 14, 37–58 and 62–63)
  • John Jay (5 articles: 2–5 and 64).
  • Nos. 18–20 were the result of a collaboration between Madison and Hamilton.[1]
[-] 3 points by Ache4Change (3025) 1 year ago

I've been to Holland and the Dutch have a really good appreciation of both individualism and collectivism and the balance between the two. My Dutch friend describes himself as a 'militant reasonablist'! I really appreciated and enjoyed your post. Thanks.

[-] 2 points by Middleaged (5140) 1 year ago

Thanks. I bet you have some interesting things to say.

[-] 3 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

I think if we could get our currency back int eh control of the people, stop letting the banks run the economy, and get universal helathcare, and get the gov out of everyone's day to day lives, that would be the best.

I think everything else would kind of fall into place if we did that. It seems that almost all roads of corruption end at the money. Follow the money. Which leads us to the banking cartel.

[-] 2 points by WSmith (5271) from Cornelius, OR 1 year ago

I see you put a lot of effort into this, for that you deserve applause.

But all of these concerns will be moot if Cons retake the WH.

[-] 1 points by Middleaged (5140) 1 year ago

To be honest I think we do have a collective type society. Collectivism is a term used lately in the news by some alternative bloggers or writers I guess. I think the Communists used to use the term also or critics of communist systems used the term.

Individualism is the oppositive of Tribalism, community importance, following the matriarchs and patriarchs, and collectivism is sort of the opposite of Individualism. The group is more important. The group makes the Rules. The group's survival is more important than ethics, laws, regulations, so there for the group changes rules to adapt to survival.

Freedom & LIberty Question in Presidential Race?

When Obama was Elected in 2008, I said it was a 'Non-Event'. Because we didn't know if there will be any really political change. We did not really get any political change. The power structure is the same to me, except for a change in names. Then allong come Romney - Ryan who want to cut government and cut the Social Safety Nets....

[-] -2 points by WeThePeop (-259) 1 year ago

A con has control of the WH right now dummy

[-] 0 points by WSmith (5271) from Cornelius, OR 1 year ago

"A con has control of the WH right now dummy"

Control of sabotage.

[-] 1 points by HCabret (-327) 1 year ago

Loss of Representative Government.

Federalist 14 is antiquated.

[-] 1 points by Middleaged (5140) 1 year ago

"...We have seen the necessity of the Union, as our bulwark against foreign danger, as the conservator of peace among ourselves, as the guardian of our commerce and other common interests, as the only substitute for those military establishments which have subverted the liberties of the old world, and as the proper antidote for the diseases of faction, which have proved fatal to other popular Governments, and of which alarming symptoms have been betrayed by our own. All that remains, within this branch of our inquiries, is to take notice of an objection, that may be drawn from the great extent of country which the Union embraces. A few observations on this subject will be the more proper, as it is perceived that the adversaries of the New Constitution are availing themselves of a prevailing prejudice, with regard to the practicable sphere of republican administration, in order to supply, by imaginary difficulties, the want of those solid objections, which they endeavor in vain to find..."

You are right. The Corporate Interests Oppose the Constitution.

[-] 0 points by HCabret (-327) 1 year ago

I oposse the constitution in many ways. I dont care about what corporations think......

I was talking about how our system of representative democracy is extremely out of date. and how it is unneccesary.

people need to think for themselves instead of paying someone else to think for you.

[-] 1 points by Middleaged (5140) 1 year ago

So I hear you saying:

1) Dissolve COngress for like 2 years, since the A) Spend More Money B) Are on the Take C) Give away taxes and subsidies

2) Cut 50% of all federal agency staff since they are just going to do the same thing next year as this year with similar funding

3) Get rid of the Dept of Education, since they are a failure, they don't add value to US Education anyway

4) Stop giving away work Visas for high technology since it is just a racket to get lower wage employees on the payroll to cut costs. US is a high tech country, there is plenty of skilled labor.

5) Cut border patrol and immigration payroll, since the border is a huge hole and anyone can get across.

6) Disband DHS since it is just a transfer of dollars to corporate security industry, we have no terrorist problem.

7) Establish standards and bench marks for court system Law suits, to make a 6th grader know if the corporation has broken the law or been negligent, etc instead of having multi million dollar law suits go for 10 years just since corporations have the money to keep the law suit going and drive the common man out of court.

8) Stream line the IRS Income tax code to like 6 Tax Credit for households and 6 for businesses. THis will free up people that add to the cost of doing business but which don't add value to the GDP or the country.. Like tax lawyers, tax accounts, tax lobby, accountants, book keepers, ...and financial managers that live off giving tax advise.

[-] 1 points by HCabret (-327) 1 year ago

"1) Dissolve COngress for like 2 years, since the A) Spend More Money B) Are on the Take C) Give away taxes and subsidies" -More like, dissolve congress permanently.

"2) Cut 50% of all federal agency staff since they are just going to do the same thing next year as this year with similar funding" -Cut 100%

"3) Get rid of the Dept of Education, since they are a failure, they don't add value to US Education anyway" -Most learning occurs outside of the classroom in a library when one is by themself "4) Stop giving away work Visas for high technology since it is just a racket to get lower wage employees on the payroll to cut costs. US is a high tech country, there is plenty of skilled labor." "5) Cut border patrol and immigration payroll, since the border is a huge hole and anyone can get across." -Abolish borders, enact universal citizenship.

"6) Disband DHS since it is just a transfer of dollars to corporate security industry, we have no terrorist problem." -i dont have a 'terrorist problem", unless my doctor's been lying to me.

"7) Establish standards and bench marks for court system Law suits, to make a 6th grader know if the corporation has broken the law or been negligent, etc instead of having multi million dollar law suits go for 10 years just since corporations have the money to keep the law suit going and drive the common man out of court." -tort reform is a bad thing, no matter which direction you throw it.

"8) Stream line the IRS Income tax code to like 6 Tax Credit for households and 6 for businesses. THis will free up people that add to the cost of doing business but which don't add value to the GDP or the country.. Like tax lawyers, tax accounts, tax lobby, accountants, book keepers, ...and financial managers that live off giving tax advise." -Enact a "free" tax that allows people to decide where thier money goes.

[-] 1 points by Misaki (893) 1 year ago

Red herrings. Full employment fixes everything through greater bargaining power.

And we can reach full employment by telling the 1% to work less. It really is that simple.

[-] 1 points by Middleaged (5140) 1 year ago

Well if we study human behavior, we might then create a plan or strategy to deal with what we have. I mean many workers ...maybe most people ...see an opportunity to grab resources and put money in the bank... they Take it. Don't know if you call it Human, or being human ... or if studying this behavior is called sociology or political science.

How can you reach the masses with your ideas. How can you convince people to make less money. US is the most productive nation on earth. The work ethic is so strong many Americans will Ostracize you if you don't work. US people even try to control all the people around them with their judgements, body language, and frostiness ... to make sure they work, look like they work, don't smile, don't act like life is fun, ect.

Look at what we are dealing with in the news: 1) Conservatives call the police to get an upside down flag removed - not even thinking about the meaning of freedom 2) Wealthy dump stocks to protest Obama Election 3) I contend that conservatives are hypocrites, they whine for bailouts of banks & low Interest rates, whine about the political system when they lose, and now they are whining for tax holiday to bring money back to the US, low capital gains tax, more corporate welfare and loop holes for corporate taxes.

There is a common trend here US people are out for themselves and to make a bunch of money.

[-] 1 points by Misaki (893) 1 year ago

I mean many workers ...maybe most people ...see an opportunity to grab resources and put money in the bank... they Take it.

People didn't take it. http://occupywallst.org/forum/capitalism-for-the-workers-and-a-new-global-econom/

Which is consistent with other results like 76% of workers being willing to take a pay cut.

The work ethic is so strong many Americans will Ostracize you if you don't work.

The entire point of the petition is to reverse society's perceptions about working less. The 1% are in the boardrooms of corporations etc; they are doing the ostracizing (by deciding who gets promoted), not being ostracized. If enough people signed the petition the economy would be fixed, simple as that.

[-] 1 points by Middleaged (5140) 1 year ago

Well I guess. I don't know any 1%ers. I figure they think if I am out of the deal, then I just miss out and better find my own deal to avoid taxes and get the big Salary & Bonus. Seems to me 1%ers don't care for other people. Oh, well yes, they participate in sending our boys to war and ripping apart multiple foreign countries.

[-] 1 points by Misaki (893) 1 year ago

I think what you said though is true in an important aspect: full-time jobs are paid at a higher rate than part-time jobs.

This is a good example, 9 out of 10 workers in Singapore work overtime: http://sg.news.yahoo.com/9-in-10-employees-working-overtime--survey.html

One way to think of it is this. When you go to the store, larger packages usually are at a discount.

Similarly, when you "buy" money using work, companies usually sell larger amounts of money at a discount in terms of work. With a 20 hour/week job maybe they offer $15/hour, but if you work 50 hours/week (at a salary job that asks for 40 hours in the job requirements) it works out to $20/hour.

So naturally, people want the rate which gives them a discount on the amount of work they have to do per dollar earned. In this sense we do "grab resources and put money in the bank" when we can.

But if you reverse the idea, and say that actually people are selling work to companies and there is a discount for larger amounts of work (but a limitation on the amount sold), then people will want to sell in smaller amounts which makes it possible to share work.

This means that the company has more control over the amount of work purchased though (with the employee setting the cost by choosing where to work), whereas previously the employee had control over the amount of money "purchased" by choosing a job with a specific salary but the company had control over how much it cost in terms of work.

A good example of the 1% attitude is in the "Having it all" article in The Atlantic a few months ago. Secretary Hillary Clinton determined how much someone under her worked, which was 11 hours a day or something. Typical for the job.