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Forum Post: What do those involved in the Occupy movement WANT? What are we for? Let me take a crack at articulating it. . .

Posted 2 years ago on March 22, 2012, 8:44 p.m. EST by therising (6643)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

I don't speak for anyone but myself. That said, I think at least some who are involved in the Occupy movement might agree with the spirit of what I'm about to say despite the fact that my attempt may be clumsy.

Many who aren't familiar with Occupy want specifics. They want answers, but the detailed answers they are expecting ("Which piece of legislation?", "Which political figures?", "Which grievances?") can't really answer their questions. This is because they confuse specificity with accuracy.

But the details don't really give an accurate or full picture. Descartes was wrong in his reductionist thinking. Slicing something into pieces doesn't give you the answers you seek. Often, perhaps always, the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. Knowing the weight, height, birthdate and social security number of a person doesn't do any more to tell you who they are than knowing the square footage, height and location of a building tells you its character. Fritjof Capra in the book "The Turning Point" reminds us that modern physics rejects Descartes' reductionism and makes it quite clear that all things are connected. By separating things artificially, we cut ourselves off from any chance of real understanding.

So, although I'd personally love for everyone to support certain landmark pieces of legislation, lift up certain courageous leaders or show up at about a thousand different key locations en masse to protest very specific things (like the action described in this post that's received over 2,000 comments https://occupywallst.org/forum/proposed-list-of-demands-please-help-editadd-so-th/ ) in this particular posting, I'll go beyond those things, however important they might be. What I want to convey is beyond what specific changes we want to see. I want to talk about how we want to BE.

What I believe drives many in the movement to protest is that they want to live an authentic life. They want to step out of what James Baldwin called "the lie and the trap of their history" to BE just BE. They want to be citizens rather than consumers. They want to step out of ROLES and want others to do the same so that we can interact as human beings. They seek out what Baldwin called "the light in the eyes that is always there waiting to be found."

Henry James put it like this: "Connect. Only connect." It is these authentic connections that I think many of us seek.

We do not want to play a "role" in an artificial corporate reality. We don't want to have our reality, our interactions or our very consciousness shaped by marketing experts whose main aim is to sell more stuff. We do not want to live life asleep, allowing ourselves to fall prey to endless manufactured wants. We don't need all this STUFF. What we need is community, real human connection. The temporary dopamine bursts that come from consuming and pursuing quick easy pleasure are unfulfilling. We crave a more sustainable joy, a deeper authentic joy that comes from genuine interaction with others, true community.

To folks unfamiliar with the heart message of Occupy, to those demanding specific solutions, I say, chill out. We may not have all the solutions at this point. But at least we are responding to our gut as human beings and asking the right questions. That is the first step.

"What do you want?" you ask? One legitimate answer is "NOT THIS." In the film "The Graduate", a died in the wool corporatist puts his arm around Benjamin and tells the recent graduate "There's a big future for you in plastics." You can see from the look on Benjamin's face that he's thinking "There are so many things wrong with that sentence that I don't even know how to respond." There's such a surrender of life, such a surrender of humanity associated with that statement about such an incredibly corporate and limited future. Rather than coming out and saying what's wrong with that mode of existence, the film simply shows you the results, the tortured lives of the 1% who are supposedly the ones winning in this lecherous system. Benjamin rejects the cynical corporate approach and embraces life. He doesn't know precisely how it will turn out or what his version of success might look like but he sees no choice really. He's not prepared to become plastic.

I must admit that at times I am frustrated that many outside the movement are so satisfied with the current state of affairs that they are incredulous that we would question it without having ready-made solutions. When a system and the people that maintain it are so incredibly divorced from reality, sometimes it is nearly is impossible to "untie the knot" through detailed explanation. I can't possibly sort out all the ways that the collusion of Wall Street, Madison Avenue, K Street, military contractors, the Pentagon, academia and Congress has fucked up this nation and the world, but I can sure as hell tell you that the results are intolerable and I just plain can't stand one more minute of it.

The legendary Bob Marley put it this way: "They would do anything to materialize your every wish."

Not one more minute of reducing our lives to playing out roles. Not one more minute of false plastic conversation. I want genuine human interaction.

And to get there, we need to rebuild this society. That doesn't necessarily mean we have to abandon what our founding fathers built. But it certainly means rejecting the shape into which the corporate hijackers with their narrow mindsets have bent this once elegant system. We reject that wholeheartedly.

I'll quote James Baldwin once again because he describes it so well:

"They do not know the precise shape of the future but they know that the future belongs to them. They realize this -- paradoxically -- by the failure of moral energy of their oppressors and begin, almost instinctively, to forge a new morality, to create the principles on which a new world will be built."

Build baby build.

Grow baby grow.

Unite. That's the vision. Heal divisions and join together. Reach out. And find commonality. Once we pay more attention to what we have in common rather than what separates us, we'll be able to make decisions from a position of unified strength rather than demands from a position of divided weakness. When you get right down to it, we already have the power and have had it all along. We just have to wake up and realize that we ARE the 99% and it's absurd that such a tiny minority has ruled over such an enormous majority for so long.

Seeking commonality is the secret. A guy named Albert Einstein (who I'm told was pretty smart) put it this way: “A human being is part of a whole, called by us the Universe, a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings, as something separated from the rest, a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest us. Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circles of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty.”

Perhaps following the Buddhist message and just pondering the truth that the same fact of death awaits us all can foster the necessary compassion that brings unity.

Follow your gut. It is telling you the truth. It is leading the people of America, the people of the world to rise up and collectively engage in a giant shrugging off of the leach of corporatism that has been sucking the blood of humanity for so long. It's destroying the lives and great potential of not only the 99% but the 1% too. No one is really benefitting from this beast. It's dividing us, pitting us against one another, stealing our lives and the futures of our children in the process.

But as Martin Luther King, Jr. said so succinctly, "Truth crushed to earth rises up."

And that leads us to the wise words of the great Rastafarian poet Bongo Jerry:

"Sooner or later but mus', the dam going to bus. And everyone will break out. And who will stop them? The force? What force can stop this river of people who know their course?"

Breyton Breytonbach said this shortly before being sentenced to prison for his nonviolent protest activity in South Africa: "With confidence, we lay our case before the world. Whether we win or whether we die, freedom will rise like the sun through the morning clouds."

So here we are at daybreak. It's just beautiful isn't it? After a long chilly night, we are awakening to feel the warmth of the sunrise. The divisions between us are dropping and the truth and the power of unity is rising with the morning sun. Ahhhh.

140 Comments

140 Comments


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[-] 11 points by ThunderclapNewman (1083) from Nanty Glo, PA 2 years ago

the rising, I think you have it distilled here for all to see. What could cause those opposed to Occupy to call such forces to bear, to spew such hatred and bitterness toward us? Their fear and lothing of the fact that we dare to reject their values that they have held so near and dear so so very long. As we continue to grow and flourish, that fear becomes more great that we won't blindly buy and consume. We won't live lives spent in robotic persuit of the things they make and sell. They have betrayed us, and in doing so, have betrayed themselves. There's no reflection cast by the mirror into which they gaze, seeking to admire themselves for being so smugly smart. They're the jilted, over-confident lover who blindly believed that we could never find anyone better. Now they stomp around and throw tantrums while leaving messages for us on our forum telling us that we'd better wise up soon because time and their patience is running out. "What are your demands? What specific solutions do you propose? That won't work and here's why!" Fools, the lot of them.

[-] 7 points by therising (6643) 2 years ago

Dostoevsky wrote the following in the Brothers Karamazov to the 1% (remarkably relevant today -- let's keep the great idea alive!):

"Today, everyone asserts his own personality and strives to live a full life as an individual. But these efforts lead not to a full life but to suicide, because instead of realizing his personality, man only slips into total isolation. For in our age, man has been broken up into self-contained individuals, each of whom retreats into his lair, trying to stay away from the rest, hiding himself and his belongings from the rest of mankind, and finally isolating himself from people and people from him.

And while he accumulates material wealth in his isolation, he thinks with satisfaction how mighty and secure he has become, because he is mad and cannot see that the more goods he accumulates, the deeper he sinks into suicidal impotence. The reason for this is that he has become accustomed to relying only on himself; he has split off from the whole and become an isolated unit; he has trained his soul not to rely on human help, not to believe in man and mankind, and only to worry that the wealth and privileges he has accumulated may get lost.

Everywhere men today are turning scornfully away from the truth that the security of the individual cannot be achieved by his isolated efforts but only by mankind as a whole.

BUT AN END to this fearful isolation is bound to come and all men will understand how unnatural it was for them to have isolated themselves from one another. This will be the spirit of the new era and people will look in amazement at the past when they sat in darkness and refused to see the light. . . . . . Until that day, we must keep hope alive, and now and then a man must set an example, even if only an isolated one, by trying to lift his soul out of its isolation and offering it up in an act of brotherly communion, even if he is taken for one of God's fools.

This is necessary to keep the great idea alive."

[-] 1 points by Quark2 (109) 2 years ago

Very Poignant. Raistlin, from The Dragonlance Series suffered this evil fate in most extreme fashion, ultimate Isolation with ultimate Power. Thanks for sharing the philosophy behind this character's fate. How paradoxical life is. Balance is the only way to ride the paradoxical wave.

[-] 3 points by therising (6643) 2 years ago

Quite true. I think it may take a balance between individualism (focus on the self) and community (a focus outside the self). Once we get outside our own heads and develop compassion -- once we engage in community with the intent to lift others -- somehow our own lives become more whole. We can't live a full life in isolation. I suppose it's not really one or the other (community or individualism). Like many things in life, it's both.

When you get right down to it, we discover peace and joy in our own lives when we reach out to others. On the other hand, of we haven't yet gotten past the ego and discovered joy that is in us, it's hard to have a real impact in the community.... We need inner strength to have the kind of resolve that can make real change in the world possible. Paradoxically, the strength comes from letting go of the idea that we're in control. Somehow when we give up on the idea that we can make things happen, we become equipped to make things happen :). When we surrender, all the strength we need is available. We become conduits, vessels. To do that, it seems we have to hollow ourselves out in order to have space to carry the water (the love).

On my best days I remember this and have strength. On other days, I'm frustrated and push in vain. Here's to our best days. Cheers!!!!!

PS - Glad you enjoyed the Dostoevsky passage. I think it says a lot about where we are today and where we can go :)

[-] 0 points by ThunderclapNewman (1083) from Nanty Glo, PA 2 years ago

One of my main interests in life, aside from social activism and worker rights is music, and so things I reference tend to come from those places. Having said that, musician/singer/songwriter recorded a song years ago titled "Church (Part Of Someone)" and it contains a line I've quoted elsewhere in this forum. It goes "You know that the self-made man is truely shallow. You see, he's no one but who he wants to be." http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZS0oYjfgJfc

PS this is a terrific thread. Glad to learn of your return to this forum.

[-] 0 points by therising (6643) 2 years ago

Thanks very much. I'll definitely take a look at the link. Love the quote! Cheers!

[-] 2 points by therising (6643) 2 years ago

Beautifully said!!!

[-] 0 points by RedJazz43 (2757) 2 years ago

We all need to realize that OWS is a very, very small movement. It cannot hope to succeed unless it becomes much, much, much larger. To become larger it much win over countless people who currently oppose it, are indifferent to it, or who don't know about it. One of the most radical concepts in life is a belief that people can change, a belief that OWS must have if it is to survive and grow.

[-] 3 points by therising (6643) 2 years ago

I agree. But in some ways, I don't think it's necessarily changing people....just reminding / awakening them to what they already know (the basic wisdom we're all born with) / our humanity via words, action and communal gatherings. We lift each other to our higher selves, our original selves. And you're right that this is more easily achieved person to person IN person. Not the only way because certainly reading awakens people as well to the truths in their own towns and their own lives and experience but I do agree that in person works wonderfully.

And once we awaken to that natural state of mind (community / kindness / compassion), everything follows from that. We build a better world by being in that mode, realizing our impact on others and the environment and therefore choosing to make it positive. When awareness arises, we awaken ourselves and others to the ripples we create with each step and each action. With awareness comes thoughtful and productive citizenry. The ego plays less of a role and so control isn't such a constant need. The guy guides actions.

The fits of control currently being exercised by the 1% and their minions are in some ways the desperate efforts of egos avoiding awakening at all cost. They shouldn't be so afraid of community and awakening for all the reasons listed above. But it's easy to see why they grasp to protect their fragile worldview they've concocted to prolong, however futilely, the notion that try are in control, that they are important and on top.

There really are some deeper drives underlying all the surface actions.

The Buddhists might tell us that the 1% will do anything to protect this concocted self, anything to avoid the peaceful and harmonious open and free community environment -- Oddly enough, they must protect themselves from the quiet, protect themselves from being free of distraction and alone with their thoughts -- that stillness is the enemy of the ego and in some ways the "Occupiers" represent that stillness and presence. This perhaps helps explain the violent reaction to people peacefully assembly in parks.

[+] -5 points by DKAtoday (28187) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

The fight is real there are real opponents - those who are lost.

We form a community and we carry on in support of each-other as we move forward to a better day a better world.

[-] 2 points by therising (6643) 2 years ago

Community is the key word.

[+] -6 points by DKAtoday (28187) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Yes it is.

We need to revive those.

Feed the spirit of fellowship.

[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 2 years ago

Public gatherings in public spaces. Fellowship. Comraderie. Solidarity. Together we are greater than the sum of our parts. Together we are unstoppable. 99%>1%.

[-] 2 points by therising (6643) 2 years ago

I think that support of one another, that joining together, is critical. This is going to be a long sustained push to cast off corpocratic forces but it is essential.

[-] 2 points by shadz66 (19985) 2 years ago

Very Nice 'forum-post' ~{:-)

Sometime ago, one 'Bill Duke' from Florida and a regular and respected poster on The Information Clearing House ( http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/ ) wrote a 'cris de coeur' which moved me to such an extent that I repeat it here verbatim due to it's relevance to all things 'Occupy' :

a) "None of us will ever make a damn bit of difference in this struggle UNTIL we are able to put our egos aside and unite for a common cause.....the common cause being the survival of this earth, a better quality of life and survival of the species.

b) "If we look for perfection in the methods, nothing will happen. If we look for the ideal time and situation, nothing will happen. If we think we can affect revolution without consequence, nothing will happen. If we look for the best opportunity, we will miss 'NOW'.

c) "When we put ourselves, our egos, on the sidelines and unite in peace and intention, we can strangle the machine. We do not need more ideas or 'the right time' ;

"WE NEED ... CONVICTION, COURAGE and PERSISTENCE."

per ardua ad astra ...

[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 2 years ago

Unity, persistence and nonviolence -- all vital.

[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 2 years ago

Well said!

[-] 0 points by shadz66 (19985) 2 years ago

Ditto and "well said" and thanx 'Bill Duke' from FLA !!! pax, amor et lux ...

[-] 5 points by Nevada1 (4512) 2 years ago

Hi therising, Excellent post, as always. Glad to see you back. Lost link back to message, so will mention here. Please see foodandwaterwatch.org

Good petition about international fracking problem directed at Hillary, and other food/water issues as well.

Best Regards, Nevada

[-] 3 points by therising (6643) 2 years ago

Great petition. Thanks for the link. I hope people continue to push back hard on this. So vital.

[-] 2 points by therising (6643) 2 years ago

Thanks very much. Will check it out. Cheers!

[-] 1 points by Nevada1 (4512) 2 years ago

Another important petition, based on fast-tracking the southern portion of XL pipeline from Cushing Oklahoma to Port Arthur Texas.

http://secure.sierraclub.org/site/advocacy?pagename=

[-] 2 points by therising (6643) 2 years ago

Fantastic. It seems the positive spirit of protest is spreading like wildfire. So great to see. Please keep the links coming. I love these petitions and am heartened to see the organized positive and active resistance building and building. Cheers Nevada!

[+] -5 points by DKAtoday (28187) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Hey Nevada1,

I would take part but the link is not working. Can you go back and copy another link?

[-] 3 points by Nevada1 (4512) 2 years ago

Hi DKA, Problem link. You can go to

http://sierraclub.org/

There is also another good fracking petition there.

Best Regards

[+] -4 points by DKAtoday (28187) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Thanks much. Must get the word out and circulating. Never miss an opportunity for direct action people.

Thanks for keeping an eye on this issue and sharing good stuff.

Best Regards right back at ya.

http://t.co/dqTtod0 - on the pipeline

http://t.co/ncebvn5 - on fracking.

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[-] -3 points by TryingForAnOpenMind (-358) from Yonkers, NY 2 years ago

go away..take hillary with you &.rising too ...has rising stupidity

[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 2 years ago

I don't understand. You came the Occupy Wall St forum. Why do you say "Go away?". Isn't it you that came here? What did you expect to find here?

[-] 0 points by TryingForAnOpenMind (-358) from Yonkers, NY 2 years ago

I hoped to find an opportunity to offer some rational, clear minded thoughts to the misguided.

[-] 5 points by Odin (583) 2 years ago

When I first joined OWS in late October, after returning from being out in Alaska for five weeks taking care of my first granddaughter, I was so surprised that something like this had finally hapened. I still did not understand the entirety of the movement though as I originally thought that it was only about the criminal behavior of the banks, and them getting away with impunity. I listened to people both here, and at Liberty Square for a quite a while before I had a full understanding of what this is all about. I learned about things like 'sustainability'.... and how important.... 'how we treat each other'.... is to them. I will humbly admit though that I did not realize how corporatism played such a detrimental role in impeding our ability to have a better world...as I had drank too much of the corporate Kool-Aid, while being mostly occupied with the day to day battles of raising kids and providing for my family.

Over the years, I have written many letters to the editor both in NJ and VT often answering vile letters that other people had sent in...on such topics as racism...xenophobia..the prison industrial complex...the drug war...campaign funding..and our never-ending wars. Anyway, when I did realize that these were concerns of this movement too ...I was delighted and totally AMAZED that this could happen....that we could all help each other connect the dots to the corrupt system we were all living under.

While I know that we will all enjoy the fruits of this struggle...I also know that this is a young people's revolution...people that will be living on this planet for decades longer than me...people like my kids and my grandkids. That is why I am here.

I feel honored to be amongst you all. Thank You.

[-] 2 points by therising (6643) 2 years ago

I really like this part of what you said in particular: "racism...xenophobia..the prison industrial complex...the drug war...campaign funding..and our never-ending wars. ...when I did realize that these were concerns of this movement too ...I was delighted and totally AMAZED that this could happen....that we could all help each other connect the dots to the corrupt system we were all living under."

Humanity is rising up. A beautiful sunrise.

[-] 3 points by Odin (583) 2 years ago

Yes "humanity is rising up," and that is very heartening for me...and I know for you as well...to not only be a witness to this, but to be a participant in this extraordinary event. We are all so f....ing lucky.(sorry about the profanity...but sometimes.....)

[-] 2 points by therising (6643) 2 years ago

I'm right there with you. This is a beautiful moment in time to see humanity saying "enough!" and beginning to forge a new future. Our fate is truly in our hands. We will build the future with each step we take.

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[-] 2 points by therising (6643) 2 years ago

So beautifully said. Yours is one of my favorite comments ever on this forum. In your personal account, you've really put things in perspective. What you've said here reminds me of the sentiment of someone who plants a tree knowing that it will be others who are shaded by it. In some ways that seems so generous and selfless. But I think it's also true that engaging in this compassionate long term work for those that come after us is one of the greatest pleasures there is. Somehow helping to give the gift of community, watering those seeds, is also a gift to ourselves. Even if we never directly feel the shade of the tree we plant, knowing others will is so damn satisfying.

I suppose some might say also that the benefit is really more immediate than that. It may be true that simply by making the decision to contribute in whatever small way we can to the long term greater good instantly transforms and enriches our own perspective. I believe the Buddhists have been telling us of the transformative power of compassion for years and that this movement is yet another opportunity to develop the wisdom of compassion. In the process of making space for our kids and grand kids to live full lives in this world (by pushing back against corporatist takeover of physical space and consciousness itself), we also develop space in our own hearts for compassion and love. We devote less time to unproductive worry and unnecessary busyness and make room for love.

It's possible that the transformation really begins the instant we make the decision to look beyond ourselves to help others. In striving to heal the world, we embrace life and become one more positive force in this world. Add those small individual forces together and you have more than physical space and freedom. You have community. And there is nothing more beautiful or sustaining than that. That is the human spirit in full bloom, popping up all over the place like flowers in the spring. You can smell it in the air. It's springtime for humanity. It's a beautiful thing. A virtuous cycle.

[-] 0 points by Odin (583) 2 years ago

Thanks

[-] -1 points by oneAdam12 (-7) from Queens, NY 2 years ago

you ought to lay off the weed. who r u helping? your writings are rambling and evidence a lack of thought. you seem to embody the unrealistic, drop out, fantasy mind set..good luck with that.

[-] 3 points by therising (6643) 2 years ago

You think compassion is a "drop out fantasy"? Gosh. You live in a dark world my friend. Come out into the light and look around at your fellow human beings. Community is possible. And it will nurture you if you look beyond yourself.

[-] -1 points by oneAdam12 (-7) from Queens, NY 2 years ago

oh please...isn't it time for you to take your med's.

[-] 2 points by jph (2652) 2 years ago

See the beauty in every last thing,. .

[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 2 years ago

Exactly.

[-] 2 points by factsrfun (6845) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

The quotes from King and Breyton Breytonbach, reflect the same thought, the truth can not be stopped, we got here through decades of constructed lies, reveling them will free us. The newest threat to freedom is this that the employer is responsible with what you do with your wages/benefits. The fact is the worker pays all the cost of their employment with their labor, the employer is not buying the health insurance or the hotel in Vegas, what you do with your earnings, whither they are paid as wages or benefits is your business not your employer’s, if they are successful in this what’s next?

Writing about minimum wage, I realized that many people do not even make enough to cover the cost of providing labor to the employer. Some cherish profit so much shouldn’t a worker be entitled to a little profit after covering to cost of working, shelter, food transportation, a bath ect.

If any think this is off point, rising ask me to chat about a few things :).

[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 2 years ago

Society will certainly benefit by allowing people a living wage so they have time to join in community with each other. This community time is so important. It can lift an entire society.

[-] 1 points by factsrfun (6845) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

Labels can be useful, we see daily how labels can separate us and keep us from realizing the things we have in common are far more important than the things that separate us, or at least they tend to be things we can affect in this life.

To some extend I want to reclaim the label as a useful tool, which can tell more truth, than detailed breakdowns. Take the label “slave” it has many meanings even “fun” ones, which I won’t talk about here. To some it represents a history of oppression to others it describes the very real day to day lives of the many who are still sold into the slave trade, for cheap labor and sex. We joke about being a “wage slave” but when everything that we earn is required to be used just to get back to work the next day, how is that not slavery? Now, when the employers, who lost in congress, are still fighting to keep us from an even a weak healthcare law and they clam the right to say how we spend our earnings. In the south a slave got room and board, such as it was, and not much else, how is that different than so many of our workers today?

[-] 2 points by BoycottCoke (275) 2 years ago

This is good stuff my friend. I'll comment in more depth sometime tomorrow, God willing. Once again excellent. I think next should be to design a plan and stick to it. BC

[-] 2 points by therising (6643) 2 years ago

It is heartening to see more and more people in the streets. Whose streets? Our streets.

[-] 2 points by therising (6643) 2 years ago

It's going to be a beautiful spring.

[-] 1 points by doitagain (234) from Brooklyn, NY 2 years ago
[-] 1 points by pewestlake (947) from Brooklyn, NY 2 years ago

Communication is the key. There has been an incredible and constant advancement in communications that has revolutionized the world since the invention of the printing press. As the circles of communication have spread wider and wider, ideas have transmitted faster across the globe, sparking movements of all kinds.

Where pamphlets were once the hallmark of the American Revolution, the internet and social media are now in the toolbox of the 99%. Forums like this represent the vanguard of spreading the message far and wide. And the more we connect, the better we are able to communicate complex ideas to each other. And complexity is important because we live in a complex society overlaid on a complex ecosystem.

But a powerful idea is often a simple one. This post is a perfect example. It isn't expressing a complex principle but the idea can be applied powerfully to complex systems. It is, essentially, a modern expression of democracy. And after all, isn't that what the Founding Fathers had in mind? Perhaps it just took this long to figure out what they really meant by a "more perfect union."

The backlash is already underway and it will get much worse before anything gets better. Corporatist media prevents OWS from controlling its own message and the horizontal nature of the movement runs the risk of spokespeople emerging who really don't speak for anyone.

I wouldn't suggest that the horizontal structure be abandoned by any means, but it may be worthwhile to consider appointing a regular group of people, from all across the country, to get some media training and be the primary conduits to those outside the movement. The reason the corporatists are so successful in spreading their agenda -- other than the money, obviously -- is because they're organized and coordinating the message across all potential media personalities and newsmakers.

Spiritually, OWS is superior to all opponents. Tactically, it has more to learn, especially with respect to the media. And I know "tactics" isn't necessarily in keeping with the spirit of this post -- which is magnificently heartfelt and true -- but it is a reality of the modern media age. If OWS controls its message better and coordinates it across the globe with all allies, the resonance of the signal will begin to cut through the noise of media spectacle. And then the real fun begins, the part where we really begin to take back our lives, our culture, our hopes and dreams, and our future and children's future from the feudal corporatists.

[-] 1 points by gonzo1 (48) 2 years ago

I think that most of the people have no idea what they want and what are the solutions. They don't understand democracy and they don't understand that the politicians are just playing with words, calling "communist" or "capitalist" whatever they want.

We DON'T have real capitalism. Because in real capitalism you have control of speculation. We live in a "slaverism" system, and the politicians and their media call it "capitalism". Strangely, the people can't see the difference.

Democracy doesn't mean we just have freedom of speech and freedom to vote. Way more important, democracy means we are free to associate and to solve our problems together. Our politicians wants us brainwashed, and they want us NOT to associate to solve problems. And they are doing a fantastic job!

All the politicians are charlatans. Simply because they never implement solutions BEFORE coming into power. They give you solutions only if you give them the power.

We can do many many things. But the people don't really understand that we can BUILD solutions together, instead of just protesting. We can solve all our problems, and we can make the politicians almost redundant.

We can make investigation publications to expose corruption, we can make public housing (replacing the government's public housing and the jobs those crooks at Habitat for Humanity are doing), we can build transparency sites and encyclopedia, etc.

Furhter reading:

The problem is much deeper than just politics. The problem is also in us. http://occupywallst.org/forum/the-problem-is-much-deeper-than-just-politics-the-/

[-] 2 points by therising (6643) 2 years ago

I agree. As we look to ourselves we will find the solution. We the 99% are the ones who have allowed the 1% to rule over us. It's downright absurd when you take a moment to think about it. I'll check out the link. Thanks.

[-] 1 points by gonzo1 (48) 2 years ago

Thank you very much for your kind reply!

If possible, please help me into telling to the people that the solution is themselves. The solution is not a new system or a new ideology, but it's in people's actions. We don't need new leaders (or, better said - dominant males). It's just that we all have to do our part of the job.

First of all, we should clear our minds and we should express our beliefs and we should gather the best ideas we could find. Then we have to tell to the people that the solution is in their actions, and they can also gather and share the best ideas, and they can participate into implementing those ideas.

I gathered my ideas on my blogs. The most important are:

http://improvemyworld.wordpress.com/2011/11/10/what-are-the-solutions/

http://improvemyworld.wordpress.com/2012/02/22/democracy/

Hope to hear from you again

[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 2 years ago

Thanks for your reply. I agree with you wholeheartedly and will definitely check out the links you provided. Cheers! :)

[-] 1 points by ithink (761) from York, PA 2 years ago

Very nice post.. I also think that many people enjoy a certain excitement that comes from feeling the power behind group action when directed specifically towards a target. But there also seems to be this new type of creative play within the emergent properties of group cohesion, which depends entirely upon non-direction. So I can see where there would be a level frustration between these two dynamics. Also, you may appreciate this TED talk. http://www.ted.com/talks/jonathan_haidt_humanity_s_stairway_to_self_transcendence.html

[-] 1 points by Blank213 (6) from McCracken, KS 2 years ago

Bob Marley? That is a deep thinker you quote?

[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 2 years ago

I suppose your deep thinker is Adam Smith?? :)

[-] 0 points by Blank213 (6) from McCracken, KS 2 years ago

No. But if you want to quote a bunch of Jamaican dope smokers to inspire this movement then you are going to lose a lot of credibility.

[-] 2 points by therising (6643) 2 years ago

Ahh. The old ad hominem. Skipped philosophy class on the day the professor reviewed that particular logical fallacy? :)

[-] 0 points by ironboltbruce (371) from Miami, FL 2 years ago

Q: What do those involved in the Occupy movement WANT?

A: What we WANT is corporate greed out of government.

Next Question?

[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 2 years ago

Well, that's definitely one of the biggies. :)

[-] 0 points by Secretariat (33) 2 years ago

""NATO is staging "Massacre of Christians in Syria by Muslims", by bringing Al Qaida and other radical Islamists to Syria, in order to initiate a war, where they can nuke Iran, give a lesson to rising China, control Middle East oil resources, and allow some people to print as much money as they wish by using petrodollars, so they can control the society and the world through their wealth and power. This will also allow capitalism to continue by breaking the Eastern and the Socialist spirituality which is growing around the world and which is the biggest threat to capitalist ruling elite. ""

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[-] 0 points by billygoat (0) 2 years ago

The Occupy movement is a group of fringe people who are losers, where beaten in high school and hate the world. They have ZERO message, and are going to be in for a shock when FEMA rounds them up and puts them in CAMPS, which will happen before the election. They take up space, are whiny losers, dirty with lice and rabies, and do NOT SPEAK for most hardworking honest americans

[-] 1 points by rayl (1007) 2 years ago

i was wondering when the trolls would show up on this post. have a nice day dude! btw when most hardworking americans find out what has really been happening to their country and their economy they will join ows. i graduated in the top 5% of my high school and did very well in university and now live outside the us in a country with a much more stable economy, loser!

[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 2 years ago

Gosh. You sure are angry. Come down to the park sometime and actually speak with some of the people. You might be surprised how much they're fighting for you, your kids and their kids too :)

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[-] 0 points by RedJazz43 (2757) 2 years ago

There are many divergent views among OWS activists. Probably the most suscinct statement of what OWS wants that has actually been passed by a body of OWS activists is the Declaration of the Occupation of New York City available on this website. Michael Moore put it even more suscinctly in his speech at the Left Forum on Saturday night: The purpose of Occupy Wall Street is to Occupy Wall Street.

[-] 4 points by therising (6643) 2 years ago

Well, somewhere between being cryptic and being direct and specific is the sweet spot. When we're befuddling potential supporters, we're probably leaning too far in the direction of being cryptic which can easily slide into being elitist if we're not careful. If our mission really is to grow the movement then we're going to have to become more articulate. I'm not suggesting changing the core message. I'm suggesting doing a better job communicating it.

That said, I do like the "show, don't tell" method and hope that OWS continues both small and large actions that a large chunk of Americans can understand and support. I believe there's plenty of opportunity for that. We've only scratched the surface on that front. You and I will continue to differ on this point but I believe the movement will plateau and diminish if we limit ourselves to occupying space and causing confrontations with police. A much larger wave of support awaits Occupy movement if we protest against and advocate for certain things rather than just occupying space. Those involved in the movement need to continue to strive to convey a long term vision for what life OUGHT to be like. I'm not saying we have to do that today but soon / eventually, we'll need to do more of that. Without leadership, only vision can sustain us. We've seen flickers of that but certainly not enough of what the positive outcome of our vigilance could be.

You mostly critique others. Would you be willing to attempt to articulate what life might be like if Occupy succeeds? That vision sure would help the movement grow. Or are we still only able to envision what we don't want.

It's funny, this was always my critique of Adbusters Magazine. I love the spirit of rebellion and I think some of the critiques are spot on. But the audience is limited ( perhaps permanently) until the editors / writers find a way to go beyond dystopia to a vision of what life could be like.

The best blues musicians still hide a bit of sweet joy in their music... And that's what keeps the true fans coming back. Do you have a vision for what life would be like if Occupy succeeds? I'm not talking about laying out an economic or political system. I'm asking, "How will a day in our lives be different than it is now in the new world we're building? What will life feel like?"

I know we say another world is possible. What might that look like? How would human relationships be different? Give us something other than "things are terrible. Gather and resist. A little dark don't you think? Is there any light you can show redjazz? So far I haven't seen much in the way of vision. Just "occupy space."

[-] 1 points by RedJazz43 (2757) 2 years ago

I don't see what is cryptic about the Declaration of the Occupation. It is only about 600 words after all and contains about 22 grievances. That strikes me as pretty specific, especially for a movement as broad as OWS. Anybody can post anything they want here. Some stuff is good, some stuff not so good, but there are very, very few documents that can be ascribed to the movement as in any sense "official." In that the Declaration of the Occupation was passed by the New York City General Assembly when that body was at its peak, it is about the most representative political statement that OWS has.

OWS is an acronym for Occupy Wall Street. That is the name of the movement. OWS without an occupation is an oxymoron.

Those involved in the movement need to keep doing whatever it is they are doing and being whatever it is they are being. Indeed it is both presumptuous and anti-democratic to think otherwise.

It is the encampments that embody what a post corporate world can be like which is just one of many reasons why the encampments are not just important, but essential in defining the movement.

And there are plenty of leaders. I could be wrong but I think only someone who has spent very little time at an occupation could say that we are a leaderless movement. The encampments and the working groups simply could not function in the absence of talented and committed leaders.

What I do see among the erstwhile liberal supporters of OWS is an impatience that is not found among its radical leaders who fully understand that we are not yet a majoritarian movement and that will probably take several decades and perhaps several lifetimes.

[-] 3 points by therising (6643) 2 years ago

Not hard to be impatient when the corporate foot is on our necks and clock is ticking... I think our failure to present a positive vision of what life would be like if Occupy succeeded is holding us back. Huge potential supports awaits us if we make some progress on that front. Otherwise, this thing really will plateau and fall off. It gets tiring just being against things. And not everyone can camp. Your consistent disdain for people who are NOT in encampments really helps create unnecessary divisions that cut the movement off from huge potential support.

I suppose you could fire back that you're not talking about camping, you're talking about joining general assemblies. Fast forward to 2 years, 5 years from now: what percentage of the population do you see regularly attending general assemblies and / or occupations? I mean, just for a moment, let's get our head out of the clouds and get real. Are you really ready to continue to call those who don't attend general assemblies "outsiders"? Why are you so stuck on that point? I think that mindset is holding the movement back from enormous support.

Several national polls by generally respected news sources showed 40 - 50% of the American public was generally supportive of occupy. You've scoffed that this a number of times on this forum. Why? Why are you being so divisive when the idea is to unify?

[-] 2 points by RedJazz43 (2757) 2 years ago

Of course not everyone can camp, but nearly everyone is capable of being active in a general assembly. Many commentators pointed out that the most important thing about OWS was that it got people up and away from their computers, out in the streets and talking to each other. As someone who participates both in computer forums and at physical occupations, my experience is that there is a world of difference between the two. People are much nicer to each other at occupations and tend to be more radical than the liberal pablum that I see on this forum. I am not suggesting that everyone does not have a right to their own point of view. I am suggesting that actual participation in an occupation, and that doesn't necessarily mean sleeping at an encampment over night, is, in and of itself, a radicalizing experience.

If you look at the home page of this very forum it calls for a general assembly in every back yard. I'm not sure that is viable or very likely, but it does seem to me that a general assembly in most of the county seats of the nation is a reasonable goal. In any event, it is what we have now. Local general assemblies at this point are the basic unit of organization of OWS. That may change and perhaps it should change, but right now it is what we have. OWS is a very, very young movement. It is barely in its infancy. It is also a very, very tiny movement. There are perhaps 20,000 occupiers in the nation. When that number is 20 or 30 million we will be a very different movement.

It is true that people do not associate publicly as much as was the case in the past, but public association is not entirely absent in our culture. Millions of people attend religious services on at least a weekly basis. Millions of people attend union meetings on at least a monthly basis. Millions of people are in a variety of voluntary organizations from the Masons to bowling leagues that meet publicly and regularly. It is also the case that millions of people has lost the habit of public association and have literally forgotten how to do it. One of the great services of OWS is that it is reminding people and teaching people how to associate publicly in an organized way.

I think "support" for OWS is really very weak. If anything the discourse on a forum like this is evidence of that. I regularly go to occupations and I regularly participate in this forum and the difference between the two is like comparing apples to Tuesday. Whatever it is that the polls think people are supporting, judging from many of the posts that I read on this forum suggests to me that many of OWSs erstwhile supporters are really clueless as to what the movement is all about and the only way they will learn what it is all about is to get out and participate in it. That does not mean quiting one's job or abandoning one's family but it probably does mean physically interacting with people at least a few hours each month.

[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 2 years ago

Well I'm not against any of that. I agree with much of what you said here. I just wish we'd find more ways to bridge the gap and be more welcoming to a broader swath of America who are inclined to support the movement but don't know how. Those folks aren't going to start going to general assemblies if they don't have a clue what they're about. There is a gap in the relations Occupy has to the public. If getting more people to step away from their busy lives and their gadgets to interact publicly at general assemblies (or wherever) is one goal (as a means to a larger end), I'm definitely for that. However, it seems as if we're missing out on a lot of opportunities to get people to do that because:

  • we haven't articulated:what people will experience in this new forum of in person interaction and
  • we haven't articulated a positive vision of where this is all leading

"Just come down and check it out" may not be enough. Maybe you're right. Maybe the fact that this movement is in its infancy needs to be recognized more often and perhaps as time goes by what I'm suggesting will be more prevalent. Do you see where I'm coming from though?

[-] 3 points by RedJazz43 (2757) 2 years ago

OWS is a very, very young movement. Like anything young it is still learning. It is learning how to reach out to people and how to build itself. Sometimes it will make mistakes. Sometimes not. It may make too many mistakes and die. Or perhaps not.

I am 69 years old and I have been involved in virtually every social movement that has arisen in this nation in the past 50 years and in my personal experience and based upon my personal observations OWS already at this stage of development is the most politically mature movement of social opposition which I have ever seen. As many commentators have noted it has gotten people up and away from their computers and TV screens and out in the streets engaging with one another. In my personal opinion one of OWSs greatest triumphs has been its alliance with sections of organized labor, the first such alliance between organized labor and the radical intelligentcia since the 1940s.

It has also energized virtually every other social movement: the labor movement, the civil rights movement, the women's movement, the environmental movement, the peace movement and more. It has helped to create whole new movements, especially among the debtor class in new initiatives against foreclosure and against student debt. That, it seems to me, is a very impressive beginning for such a new and small movement.

[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 2 years ago

I agree wholeheartedly.

[-] -3 points by DKAtoday (28187) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Beautiful. Very well said.

Yes we are all hungering for LIFE.

Work should be a means to that end of being ALIVE.

Work has become the be all end all of life in this modern age and that is NOT living.

We are here not just to fight corruption and greed but to find a balance again to find time to celebrate life to live life with our fellow human beings.

To promote health and love - This Is Prosperity.

This is why we fight.

So that we can live. Appreciate a sunrise and a sunset being with family friends and community in a life which is not rushing to get ready for the next work day but is spent cherishing the coming of a new day.

Life is short. Enjoy it.

[-] 2 points by therising (6643) 2 years ago

Imagine if all the energy put into making big business MONEY was actually put into making big business a productive contributor to our nation and its citizens.

[+] -6 points by DKAtoday (28187) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Imagine the prosperity and health in the green industry. All of those newly created jobs implementing clean power technology. Building Power plants, installing geo-thermal heating and cooling. Updating the fuel infrastructure to handle hydrogen fuel cell tech refills. Placing solar panels and wind turbines to reduce stress on the power grid.

Huh.

[-] 2 points by therising (6643) 2 years ago

So true. So true.

[+] -5 points by DKAtoday (28187) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Yo Rising - nice post.

I wonder if anyone ever thought of putting something like this on a leaflet to use as outreach/education at marches or to just hand out in public places kind of like a version of Salvation Army Bell Ringers.. Give everyone something they could agree with and support.

[-] 2 points by therising (6643) 2 years ago

Intriguing idea. I know it's very 20th century but when you hand someone a leaflet, you do have a chance to speak with them face to face which is sometimes incredibly memorable :). Makes a permanent imprint.

[+] -6 points by DKAtoday (28187) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

I bet you would end up talking to all kinds of people. Especially if they liked the leaflet. Kind of an ice breaker.

[-] 2 points by therising (6643) 2 years ago

Also gives them something to hand to someone else later on.... Gets them to perhaps visit occupywallst.org to learn more. :).

[+] -6 points by DKAtoday (28187) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

A nice well done leaflet showing the spring action logo. I thought that the logo could be made into patches and iron-ons to be sold and could include an introductory to the reasons and goals of the movements against corruption greed and manipulation.

[-] 2 points by therising (6643) 2 years ago

I think it's a great idea. Would help spread the word in a new way. Challenge to build consensus around what it should say but nothing's easy :)

[+] -6 points by DKAtoday (28187) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Imagine an iron-on and a patch unique to each State. Plus a message that shares the common goals but might also point out something of particular interest in the area. Maybe even stickers for windows and bumpers. Put a short truth on them as to what the movements are fighting.

[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 2 years ago

We should look to history for examples of what types of things really spread like wildfire and became galvanizing and iconic.

[+] -5 points by DKAtoday (28187) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Mr. Smiley was wildfire. The peace sign was wildfire. The green and white striped flag with the E in the top left corner for ecology/environmental awareness was wild fire. The image of a guy walking down the road with the slogan "keep on truckin" was wild fire. "Keep-on Keepin-on" was wildfire. A combination American Flag and the peace sign was wild Fire. "Make love not war" was popular. There is so much more. Lots of food for thought and inspiration.

[-] 3 points by therising (6643) 2 years ago

Right On!!!!!!!! I think you're on to something man.

[+] -5 points by DKAtoday (28187) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Thanks I must be operating on more than a few synapses at the moment.

You are as always very kind.

[-] 2 points by therising (6643) 2 years ago

Keep those synapses firing!

[+] -5 points by DKAtoday (28187) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Will do.

It has been easy today. So many good posts so many good comments. Plenty of food for thought.

Then the R&R has been outstanding today. There has been troll slapping, Troll juggling, the troll rodeo and round-up. The performance of the troll stone cops ( kind of like the keystone cops only dirtier & harrier ).

Really an incredibly fun day all the way around.

[-] 3 points by therising (6643) 2 years ago

I love it. I really do. And your description is priceless. Rock n roll.

[+] -4 points by DKAtoday (28187) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

LoL

Did I mention the troll tossing? That one is always fun.

As they used to say it was far-out.

Some of them actually went "out of sight".

[-] 2 points by therising (6643) 2 years ago

They've closed public park again. Do they plan to close all of New York?

[+] -6 points by DKAtoday (28187) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

See that is another overlooked item that could be used at the demonstrations.

Example:

So you won't let the homeless sleep in the park. We have no problem with that set-up a shelter for them and they won't have to. Till then what do you expect the homeless to do?

[-] 2 points by therising (6643) 2 years ago

Are you watching the live stream on the news page right now???????? Holy cow!!!! What do the police think they're going to accomplish with this? They're only swelling our numbers.

[+] -6 points by DKAtoday (28187) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Which stream are you watching?

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[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 2 years ago

They want to squeeze us from both ends.... Economically squeeze us and then, when the least fortunate are homeless they squeeze us out of public spaces. But 1% of the population can only squeeze the other 99% of the population for so long..... The 1% are fools if they think they can keep this up and keep waltzing around with their champagne. They need to read a little history of nonviolent movements and how the people win :)

[+] -6 points by DKAtoday (28187) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

I agree. They do not seem to realize that by destroying the economy they are destroying themselves.

Now that is absolutely BatShit crazy.

[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 2 years ago

Was watching "Ustream" (the one on homepage/newspage of this site.

[+] -6 points by DKAtoday (28187) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

What happened? This is the time of night that they generally start their crack downs. I suppose I'll have to catch it on the update.

Let them swell our numbers. They are our best real world advertizement right now.

[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 2 years ago

Troll traffic definitely on the increase with all sorts of new monikers.

[+] -6 points by DKAtoday (28187) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Did you see that that pewe--- whatever character just went bonkers today?

Complete shithouse rat mad.

Unbelievable.

[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 2 years ago

It is very revealing how the paid troll traffic increases everytime occupy movement heats up. It shows they realize the power of this forum to connect people and that they wrongly believe they can overwhelm the forum and drive people away. They can't. There is nothing so powerful as an idea whose time has come.

[+] -6 points by DKAtoday (28187) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

This is true. We move forward because it is time.

The trolls can actually be quite helpful, can't they?

They lend such a nice example of what we are talking about.

They can be really quite helpful when trying to make a point.

Did I forget to mention the troll darts? The pointy heads make them perfect.

So much fun and good sport.

[-] -2 points by TryingForAnOpenMind (-358) from Yonkers, NY 2 years ago

you are boring and full of yourself..

[+] -5 points by DKAtoday (28187) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

You keep trying. But not very successfully. See the idea is to be able to look at a subject from all sides without prejudice then weigh it on it's merits.

I know I know a totally foreign thought process for you. That is why you are having no luck with -1 points by TryingForAnOpenMind (22).

[-] -1 points by TryingForAnOpenMind (-358) from Yonkers, NY 2 years ago

what does that mean (22)? I don't get these scores. can u explain? thanks

[+] -5 points by DKAtoday (28187) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

That is your progress. A sign of people in agreement with you. I am surprised that you are doing so well.

Good Job.

[-] 0 points by TryingForAnOpenMind (-358) from Yonkers, NY 2 years ago

hey thanks...I know that I express a minority opinion here. I don't agree w/ the troll label...I just disagree with a lot of the popular thought on this site. It's beneficial to allow opposing views to be expressed. have a good day.

[-] -1 points by TryingForAnOpenMind (-358) from Yonkers, NY 2 years ago

Is that score subject to change? or are you stuck with it? is it possible to have a negative score?

[+] -5 points by DKAtoday (28187) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Yep. Negative scores are possible. That is why I am impressed that you have not started digging a hole yet.

[-] 0 points by TryingForAnOpenMind (-358) from Yonkers, NY 2 years ago

well thanks for the explanation. I guess some folks .....not many, agree with me. good night

[+] -5 points by DKAtoday (28187) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Besides regaining government service to the people, the end of wide spread corporate corruption.

We need to break the chains of Fossil Fuel dependence the cause of conflict and pollution and massive financial drain on the economy:

This is where we should be going: Green Energy we have the technology we just need to use it. This is what I am talking about. A clean future to be implemented NOW!

http://www.hopewellproject.org/

http://ecat.com/

http://www.wired.com/magazine/2009/12/ff_new_nukes/all/1

FuelCell Energy http://apps1.eere.energy.gov/news/progress_alerts.cfm/pa_id=600

[-] -2 points by TryingForAnOpenMind (-358) from Yonkers, NY 2 years ago

get a life..get a job :)

[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 2 years ago

Your name is "tryingforanopenmind" and you're telling people to "get a life..get a job"? I don't get it. What do you stand for?

[-] -1 points by TryingForAnOpenMind (-358) from Yonkers, NY 2 years ago

God and country.

[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 2 years ago

OK, well, be kind and compassionate then. We're out here fighting for god and country.

[-] -2 points by TryingForAnOpenMind (-358) from Yonkers, NY 2 years ago

does not look like that to me....for obama and the cameras.. to make pd look bad...and to strengthen already bully, corrupt unions.

[-] 2 points by therising (6643) 2 years ago

You do understand that part of patriotism, part of loving your country is raising your voice using your first amendment rights when those controlling your country are doing wrong? You realize that's patriotic right? And you also realize our government has been hijacked by corporations right? If not, you're asleep at the wheel my friend. And if you're a paid troll, well, consider abandoning ship. You're on the losing side of this one.

[-] -1 points by TryingForAnOpenMind (-358) from Yonkers, NY 2 years ago

Really? the corporations are evil?.. Empty headed rhetoric...Obama’s economic policies are destroying the American dream of living in a free country, with free enterprise, by his turning the United States into a welfare state, soon to be completely dependent on the good graces of the People’s Republic of China, which provides him new trillion-dollar loans for his new campaign promises, further bankrupting the country.

[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 2 years ago

Where dO you come up with this stuff? Too much AM radio? Why the hatred of Obama? You do realize how little power the president really has over the economy right? And you do realize that the true mess was created by the deregulation that began under Reagan and continued under Bush I and II right? Have you seen the award winning film that everyone's talking about: Inside Job? If not, you really should rent it. It's so well made and thoroughly researched. I think it would help you understand what really happened here. The documentaries "The Corporation" and "Why We Fight" would help as well if you haven't seen them. If you watched all three today, you'd probably switch teams.

[-] -1 points by TryingForAnOpenMind (-358) from Yonkers, NY 2 years ago

Corporate greed has merit. – it creates jobs. Companies want to make more money and with each person they hire, they can make a profit on them. That’s how this works, in case you haven’t figured that out yet (don’t worry – no college degree is necessary for that, just a brain).

This whole OWS movement doesn’t make any sense. The people in it don’t seem to have a consistent message because they don’t know why they are protesting. I think they just look pretty dumb. I think most Americans see them this way. Obama supporters are wanting OWS, irresponsible, childish mentality to help him in 11/12– It can’t help him. It’ll only rally up the small base he has, that don’t have jobs and don’t have working brains. He already has them, so what’s the point? :

[+] -6 points by DKAtoday (28187) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Hey! failedatthinking how they hangin - High Tight Swollen and Aching? Or have you had them removed due to being kicked in the crotch on a regular ( daily? several times/day? ) Basis.

[+] -5 points by ibanker (-99) 2 years ago

god u have so much free time

[-] 4 points by therising (6643) 2 years ago

I'm so glad you took the time to read this. My genuine hope is that it has penetrated your consciousness.

[-] 1 points by Anti385 (58) 2 years ago

Look who is back.. an unskilled banker... a parasite of society.

[+] -5 points by DKAtoday (28187) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

One such lost soul. 0 points by ibanker (-5) 1 hour ago

Living for the love of money.

[+] -6 points by ibanker (-99) 2 years ago

Yeah I love money. Life is a race, money is how I keep score.

[-] 8 points by April (3196) 2 years ago

Ugh.

[+] -5 points by ibanker (-99) 2 years ago

:) money may not buy happiness but i will take my chances

[-] 7 points by April (3196) 2 years ago

That's fine and well. But try to open your heart and mind to larger things beyond yourself. Empathy for others for starters. Try putting yourself in another's shoes.

There are people less fortunate than we are. Who were less fortunate before the financial crisis. Who did nothing to cause the financial crisis. But are left suffering the consequences of it. Whose lives have been made even more difficult. Do you not feel some amount of empathy?

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[-] 2 points by RedJazz43 (2757) 2 years ago

Actually it has been determined that up to a particular point money really does buy happiness, but not after that point. That point is at about $75,000 a year, well above the poverty line or a living wage but very, very much below anything that anyone would consider real wealth.

[-] -3 points by ibanker (-99) 2 years ago

Well that point is a few zeroes higher for me and I am yet to reach there. may be some day. :)

[-] 3 points by RedJazz43 (2757) 2 years ago

The point is, is making more money really making you happier? I am sure it is creating more stress in your life. As the old Gershwin song goes, people with plenty of nothin' have nothin' to steal. The more you have to steal the more you worry about it and the more you make the more you end up spending on "security" of various types, whether it is more locks on your door or living in a gated community or various places to hide your money or all of that and more. I don't see the happiness in that. Perhaps it is for some people but statistics suggest otherwise.

[-] -3 points by ibanker (-99) 2 years ago

See I am young and I like to buy stuff. And buying cool stuff makes me happy. So yes money makes me happy. Also earning more ensures i can give my family (which considering I am single is right now only my parents) the best.

Steal? Is anyone making good money stealing? What convoluted thinking is that? Statistics do not suggest that the rich are not happy. Also I am not rich in anyway. I graduated last year and entered a job, sure I make more than most of my batch mates but I am not even remotely rich.

[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 2 years ago

The bar will keep moving. It's a treadmill.

[-] -1 points by gnomunny (6641) from St Louis, MO 2 years ago

Money may not buy happiness but it sure makes the sadness a lot easier to deal with.

[-] -3 points by ibanker (-99) 2 years ago

And I would any day prefer to cry inside a limo rather than a pick up truck

[-] 1 points by gnomunny (6641) from St Louis, MO 2 years ago

Absolutely. I believe in the OWS cause but I really like money. It's one of my favorite tools.

[-] 1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

As long as it's a rental.

[-] -3 points by ibanker (-99) 2 years ago

i will let you know if I need a chauffeur