Welcome login | signup
Language en es fr

Forum Post: What Do You Believe

Posted 11 years ago on Aug. 23, 2012, 10:46 a.m. EST by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

How Long

Yes, the title is a question. I will not attempt to tell you what you should believe - I will, however, provide a brief examination of what I believe, much of which is based on what is known, what is provable, about ourselves, about human behavior, and about the world around us.

The world is in a dire state today. There are over seven billion of us, many of whom do not get enough to eat every day, nearly one sixth do not have clean drinking water. These are facts - feel free to google.

The climate is warming, humanity is in possession of nuclear weapons, those who possess them are in direct competition, ideologically and directly - for control over what natural, economic, and human resources remain.

There are those in this country, primarily repelicans, who insist it will all be fine, these events were all foreseen long ago, and surely it will all work out, because Jesus will soon return and set things straight.

I do not doubt the role of Jesus in the historical context - I accept that he was a Liberal, a Political Dissident, and that he was slain for having disturbed the status quo.

I accept that it may be possible, under certain circumstances, to see the future -

Some claim Nostradamus foresaw terrible things, things relating to this present age, and upon seeing them ceased his vision quest.

Today our sciences have found the subject of prophecy so intriguing they have turned it into a subject of much study and research - I frequently point to Festinger's early work: When Prophecy Fails [1961]. Such individuals are, as Festinger demonstrates, highly skeptical.

What we do know about human behavior, is that when the end approaches in an individual life, we are often prone to lies and deceit, all in the interest of compassion, kindness, as a means of easing the pain and suffering attendant upon such occasions.

WE cannot say what ancient mystics may have seen. What can be said is that there are certain correlations between some visionary accounts and our present age - and these accounts may be found in such diverse places as the Middle East, China, and Europe.

We cannot know if perhaps they saw the extinction of humanity, or the salvation. We can say either is possible - and we can say that with confidence -

  • because it does fit with what we know of human behavior

  • because it is indisputable - that crossroads is, even now, before us.

Do you believe in Jesus? Then pray. Pray we act before it is too late.

Are you unsure what to believe?

Then examine the facts, the world around you, and what is known of human behavior. Decide, and decide quickly, what it is that really matters, to you. Then prepare to stand before it, and defend it as if the entire race of humanity depends on the outcome.

Perhaps it does.



Read the Rules
[-] 3 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 11 years ago

Thanks ZD. People need to think - people need to take a good look around them at the reality of what is happening in this world. As it is plain to see - we are all in major trouble if things continue on as they have been.

[-] 2 points by ericalbertmiles (-4) 11 years ago

I believe you are lost. Not only are you looking at the wrong place in attempt to understand our world, but you are also looking at the wrong place for solutions. You also fail to understand the real problems we face today.

The mystics, Nostradamus, Jesus, prophecies, etc.. All these sources are of little use since 1) most of them have been thoroughly discredited, i.e. the predictions made by Nostradamus lack precision and many have been completely false, 2) no evidence whatsoever lends credence to these sources. They must be dismissed as they to not help us understand our world, and they will not help us improve it.

As for the real problems, many here will talk of wealth inequality, of the fact, like you mention, that 1/6 of the population does not have drinking water and that many people are poor and do not have enough to eat. While true, we must not forget that people were poorer before the agricultural revolution. That is, a CEO making millions of dollars is not making people poorer. People today, are getting richer as a whole. The economic output of the world is manifolds what it used to be. 200 years ago, 100 years ago, the percentage of poor people was much higher than today. The agricultural revolution has bridge the gap somewhat, the power revolution that's coming will bridge it even more.

Many anarchists here, primarily the primitivists, will try to convince you that we must cut our use of resources so we can cut our power intake. They will convince you to live on a farm, and to stop spending. To be self-sufficient so that you don't use so much power as if this will magically give power to others. This is not how economy works. If you spend less electricity is does not mean more electricity for your neighbor. In the same way, if a CEO makes less it does not mean more money for your neighbor.

What we must do, and are going to do, is use more power. We use to be gatherers when it came to food. Then agriculture came and we learned to raise animals. However, we are still gatherers when it comes to energy. We dig for coal, we dig for oil in the most remotes of places, etc... This is about to end. We are soon to enter a power revolution just like we did we the agricultural revolution. Solar power is becoming cheaper and cheaper every year, and soon it will be cheaper than fuel. Already, some people have homes entirely off the grid powered by solar panels. There is a company in Australia working on solar paint. You paint your house with this and it collects solar energy for you like a solar panel does. There are people working on solar highways. Streets that are formed of solar panels and harvest energy, but also move the energy like a grid since each home is connected to a road.

Jesus will not save us. Nostradamus' predictions won't either. You are wasting your time talking about this nonsense. What will improve our lives is technology like it always has in the past.

The beautiful thing about technology is that it cannot be stopped, even by politics. Solar power is coming, and there's nothing big fuel companies or Obama can do to stop that. Similarly, there is also technology, nanotechnology, being worked on to help the environment. There are engineered bacteria that eat nuclear waste and oil spills. It's just a matter of time before all these new technologies come together. In the realm of medicine we will soon have systems like IBM's Watson that you've seen on Jeopardy. A computer will take your blood pressure, temperature, list of symptoms, your DNA, your family history, and it will be able to search the whole knowledge base of medicine to come up with a potential diagnosis, and it will be very good at doing this in a few seconds.

If the people on this website started working to make the world a better place instead of spending their days writing nonsense, things would get much better much faster. OWS is right in saying it's about grassroots. It's about making change for ourselves. Writing is important, but doing is even more. Writing only matters when you write something worthwhile. Talking about Nostradamus is an utter waste of time. It does not help our problems in any way shape or form.

If you really care about predictions, then I feel you should look at the work of Raymond Kurzweil. These predictions are worth a zillion times more than the predictions of Nostradamus which are all but useless.


[-] -1 points by ericalbertmiles (-4) 11 years ago

Your view is extremely myopic, and, as such, a complete waste of time. Not only do you fail to understand how Global Warming can and will be resolved, you also place such importance on the fight against the republicans that you not only fall short of OWS goals, but you also hurt OWS by distracting from the real issues it is supposed to tackle.

First, on Global Warming. There is no doubt Global Warming is real and a threat to humanity. There is a wealth of scientific evidence to show this, and it doesn't matter how far deep a republican will bury is head in the sand - he won't be able to dismiss science. Although I find your estimate that humanity could end in a decade or two pure fantasy and fear mongering, there's no doubt that if we continue this way humanity could suffer greatly. Humans are amazing at adaptation, and this is why I do not believe Global Warming will kill us all. It might be more like the Bubonic Plague and kill many people.

Now, your problem is that you view Global Warming's solution in politics. This is wrong. Politics will never fix this problem. Politics are slow (as you said, the problem needs to be solved quickly), politics also don't work too far beyond borders. Even if every politician in US was working hard to solve Global Warming, it would remain true that many countries around the world like China continue to pollute and mess things up.

The good news is that there is a real solution to Global Warming and it lies in technology. Technology is quick to improve and actually becoming faster and faster on an exponential rate. 20 years ago, the President had a fast supercomputer that only he and his army had access to. Today, a young child in Africa has the same power of that computer on his iPhone. I truly believe Kurzweil's law of accelerating returns is right on the mark. We can see it with solar power. Every year, solar power becomes cheaper and more effective. It's just a matter of time before it becomes cheaper than fuel. There are already people that power their houses with solar power. This will become common in a few years once prices have gone down. The great news is that this is not pushed by Global Warming. Sure, solar power pollutes less than fuel, but the reason it will become the next big thing is not because of that. It will become the next big thing because it is efficient, and the sun is all around us. We don't have to dig for the sun. Every day, the sun sends the earth 100,000 times the energy we consume today. That's a lot. We only have to tap in a bit to get what we need, and we will tap into more so that we can have much more power than we have today.

Not only that, but technology crosses borders. Even if US was 100% against solar power, it would still get used in many other countries and eventually would become so cheap that US would have to look into it. Technology is an unstoppable force.

In a nutshell, even if the republicans won it wouldn't make a difference to Global Warming. The most vile republican who only cares about money will invest in solar power because it will be the next big thing. Technology is unstoppable. We won't solve Global Warming with treaties or accords like the Kyoto protocol. This is small peanuts. It can help reduce emissions, but the real way to solve Global Warming is through technology and that is already being worked on all around the world.

Second, on the fight against the republicans. Sure, the republicans are horrible, but fighting against them directly is not the mandate of OWS. The OWS message is that the system is broke, and that we must work together through grassroots initiatives to make our lives better. When you fight the republicans straight on, you legitimize the system since it means you are not fighting against the other parties like the democrats. Truth is, even if the republicans were non-existent, the problem with the system would remain. OWS must fight the system, not one particular party.

You can fight the republicans and urge people to vote for the democrats, but you should do this outside of the scope of OWS since it distracts from the real things we should be working on, just like talking about Global Warming distracts from the real problems OWS should tackle. Let political activists who believe in the system fight against the republicans. There are already many outlets for that. Hell, you could join the democrats to do this. Let the scientists deal with Global Warming, since they will fix the problem, not politicians.

What you should do is talk about things OWS can do, is doing, and should continue to do. This is grassroots initiatives to improve the lives of the citizens in your community. Work on programs to help the poor and the needy, to help the minorities, to help the gays and lesbians. Talk about what you can do for your community on this website. Find people on this site that live close to you so you can meet in person and put your ideas in practice. This is what OWS is about.

Sadly, the posters here seldom talk about real solutions OWS can offer, never mind actually working hard on implementing those solutions. Most people here talk about politics, indulge in fear mongering, or talk about huge problems like Global Warming which are outside the scope of OWS.

How wonderful it would be if we could get back to talking about the revolution. Talking about what we can do in our communities right now to help those who need help. How nice it would be if we used this site to get in touch will people close to us so we could meet in person and start doing grassroots initiatives right now.

Sure, we can do like you and post day after day that the republicans are evil. Who cares? There's no OWS protester that will vote for the republicans anyhow. What a waste of time to try to convince the people on this website who are progressives by default to abstain from voting for Romney! What a waste of time for republicans to come here and try to convince OWS protesters to vote for Romney. Won't happen. OWS protesters are deeply left wing, so, you don't have to convince anyone here not to vote for the republicans. You're wasting your time.

It's also a waste to indulge in end of the world fear mongering. Ya ya, we know the world will end tomorrow and that we're in deep shit. Whatever! That's not a OWS problem.

What you need to do is start talking about grassroots initiatives. Get out there in the street and help someone today. Start some kind of community program.


[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 11 years ago

Odin trying to pick on you?


[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 11 years ago

Perhaps it is not but he was just trying to bust my chops about my illness.


[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 11 years ago

OH - yes they generally do trip up when they are pretending to be someone they are not.

On that 1st part ? No biggie - not a sore point for me anymore - I have had years to come to terms with it.

[-] -1 points by ericaIbertmiIes (-1) 11 years ago

So . . . um, given that my view is such a waste of time, why did you take so much time responding? YOu little texty-rantor . . .

Because, you have a lot of time on your hands and you are devoting it to OWS. My hope is that you would put that time to better use so that you would help OWS in a much better way.

Last I knew OWS operates on the basis of consensus. I have an opinion. You are free to discard it, as you wish.

Of course, you are free to have an opinion, and that is why I have discarded it.

You see the entire system as dysfunctional, and attack the whole. I focus on that portion of it that is most demonstrably fucked - I attack where it is weak.

No, you're fight against the republicans on this website is useless. Nobody here, the OWS protesters who come here, have anything to do with the republicans and will not vote for them. You are wasting all your time preaching to the choir. Instead, you should use all the time you have to help a group in your community. Why do you think the anarchists who started this site are never here. Because, they are busy doing work in their communities. What are you doing? Fighting off republicans on the OWS website? What a waste of time.


[-] 2 points by alterorabolish1 (569) 11 years ago

What is known of human behavior leads me to agree with you that perhaps the enitre race of humanity depends on the outcome of our stand TODAY, NOW.

I agree with Chris Hedges that corporations have control of our government, indeed the entire world. Unless they are stopped soon, it will be too late.

The crossroad is before us, even now.

[-] 2 points by agkaiser (2526) from Fredericksburg, TX 11 years ago

A prophet is one who sees the direction we're going in and predicts the [usually dead] end we must achieve if we don't steer away from it. If we're to be saved we'll have to save ourselves.

[-] 1 points by Proteus (141) from Quebec, QC 11 years ago


[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 11 years ago

It does depend on our taking a stand! I believe in the people.

God is a concept

By which we measure

Our pain

I don't believe in magic

I don't believe in I-Ching

I don't believe in Bible

I don't believe in tarot

I don't believe in Hitler

I don't believe in Jesus

I don't believe in Kennedy

I don't believe in Buddha

I don't believe in mantra

I don't believe in Gita

I don't believe in yoga

I don't believe in kings

I don't believe in Elvis

I don't believe in Zimmerman

I don't believe in Beatles

I just believe in me

Occupy and me

And that's reality

Peace brother, Solidarity

[-] 0 points by Shubee (119) 11 years ago

I don't want to be included in with the Repelicans, the Reichpublicans or the Replicants (funny names), just because I believe in Bible prophecy, which exposes the evil designs of the United States.




[-] 0 points by timirninja (263) 11 years ago

Zen, did you ever heard about Vanga predictions? take a look http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baba_Vanga#Studies it would be interesting to see what she though about black president hehehe


[-] 0 points by timirninja (263) 11 years ago

this is for fun: http://www.theastralworld.com/prophecies/babavanga.php many things are impossible. never say never


[-] 0 points by timirninja (263) 11 years ago

good point

[-] -1 points by freewriterguy (882) 11 years ago

and yet there is plenty of water, and plenty of land, the problem once again is that a few people have lifted themselves up over us to be our God, and they are witholding what is rightfully ours. We also know the inevitable result by such actions. The majority always win in the end, so I propose we start a list of names of those people who have taken away our freedom and our rights over the years. And let us begin to memorize these names so that all may know who exactly is reponsible for taking away what belongs to the people. Lets start with the bureau of land management, if they have been managing "my land for over a hundred years, and yet my family hasnt own land for 3 generations now...I say they have stolen my land.


[-] 0 points by freewriterguy (882) 11 years ago

And yet it escapes human comprehension the unceasingly flow of water in local streams and rivers, People could, (and should be) filling up their endless 2 liter bottles of soda they consume and have at least a year supply of water for their families in preparation. What am I the only one? hmmmm

Or look at how much food one grape seed can produce.. literally thousands of other food from a single seed. I submit that it is the brainswahing of society that puts too much trust in Babylon, where our food must be trucked in from thousands of miles away, (ya that sounds safe to me for a case of a disaster) . God forbid we should run out of oil to truck it in, when there is earth all around us and under our feet. Or that there should be an earthquake to break up our highways. In this regard you people are at risk of becoming extinct!


[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 11 years ago

Time to enclose the Mississippi? Massive ( impossible ? ) construction project to screw up the environment along the length of the Mississippi - so that locks can be em-placed to raise the water level for continued barge traffic?

Happy days are here again - the sky's above are clear again.............

[-] 0 points by freewriterguy (882) 11 years ago

This is good, "surface news" but it doesnt address some of the deeper complexities like so many other lets call it babylonian society. Take for example, there was an old woman who couldnt afford to water her lawn here in my town, and so the law threatened her with a 50 dollars a day fine for "zoning ordinance violation" as well as jail. Her lawn had died and turned yellow-brown. You see this all plays a part in the dumbing down of society I am talking about. I say, if half the earth needs to die because they are too stupid to look at what is right in front of them, so be it. Most of our water, evaporates, or sinks down under the earth, it is only the easy surface water that the news reports as being depleted.

Take for example another idea as a case in point: if we took the trillions of dollars we are wasting in goverment over regulated fees to register our cars at the dmv, and started desalinization plants like they have in Saudi Arabia, to tap into the 75% of our world's water supply.... (do I even need to finish this sentence)???

The fact is, you people are too dumb to survive what is coming, and I cant wait until you are gone. Then I will be able to live in peace.

[-] 1 points by jbgramps (159) 11 years ago

For the record there are a lot of posts and threads on Stormfront that mirror your feelings. Maybe you’re on the wrong forum?

[-] 1 points by freewriterguy (882) 11 years ago

well for the record if OWS wants to destroy CAPITALISM, in favor of BIG GOVERNMENT, they wont like that any better. Might as well have a police state while they are at it.

[-] 1 points by jbgramps (159) 11 years ago

I’m not part of OWS, just here to try and save a few souls. Yea, a few of the more extreme OWS folks want to end capitalism. And we already have big government and to some degree a police state. Forget about ending capitalism for the foreseeable future. Just some over-idealistic folks who don’t live in the real world.

In spite of not having much faith that OWS will accomplish anything note worthy, I still like some of the ideas. OWS will eventually splinter and maybe some the more rational folks may a difference. But right now that’s questionable.

[-] -1 points by funkytown (-374) 11 years ago

Now that's funny.

In my mind we are a people possessed of two separate languages. One contains nouns of form the other is almost wholly metaphorical.

Now, let me tell ya... I consider myself 1/4 rock and roll, 1/4 country, and at least 2/3s Redneck. Pickup trucks are central to life, and what is a pickup truck to me? Well, it's 5000 lbs of cheap Chinese steel, a literal rust bucket, that is used to haul heavy items on unpaved surfaces. But to many today it's a just a symbol of racism, i.e., the metaphorical.

Apply this to our entire language... nothing's real, our nouns have no substance.

Don't just write there - go do something.

Go to the beach, plant a garden... whatever. But learn the substance of our language.

[-] 1 points by jbgramps (159) 11 years ago

I’m with you. My truck is new and shiny; and cost more than my first house. I don’t listen to any music that doesn’t have either a fiddle or a steel guitar. I own enough firearms to make the cops jealous. I still wear pointy toed riding boots. I can hunt, fish, field dress a deer, plant a garden, plow a field, pick cotton, haul hay and milk a cow. Thoroughly experienced in all things listed.

Having said all that I don’t consider myself a redneck. I don’t drink alcohol, smoke and never taken drugs. I’m just a old Texas farm boy. I never understood why some people want to make a big thing out of just being a country boy. Our culture may be different, but that doesn’t make us any better or worse than say. Someone living Chicago.

[-] -1 points by funkytown (-374) 11 years ago

Haha... my "Redneck" was partly metaphorical but my point is that if you spend all your time online eventually everything is but cyber phraseology, just nouns without substance. It becomes easy to turn apples into imaginary oranges or anything else you want them to be. But in failing to live life, experiencing the real substance of life, we lose sight of the end goal... which is the happiness of people, and people are the same everywhere.

[-] 1 points by jbgramps (159) 11 years ago

I’m with you now. I misunderstood the point of your original post. Since our TV broke last year we decided to try life without a TV. Pleasantly surprised that we hardly miss it. However, it has resulted in me spending more time on the computer. Being retired coupled with no TV equals more time on the computer, mostly in the evenings.

I probably spend two, or maybe three, hours a day on the computer; but I’ve decided the computer is as much a waste of time as TV. I’m going to drastically cut back. I have other interests far more fun (reloading ammo, rebuilding older collectable firearms or just reading).

I subscribe to half a dozen forums. Mostly collectable firearms related. It seem that some people live on the internet forums, I mean the same people are on the forums 24 hours a day. OWS is a good example. I’d estimate about two hundred regular posters is what keeps this forum alive. They seem to always logged in. I truly don’t understand it. Is real life so unfulfilling you must live on the internet to be social. I’m not trying to be judgmental, but am puzzled.

[-] -1 points by funkytown (-374) 11 years ago

Well it's interesting because at one point I had come to almost view the Net as the physical manifestation of mass mind... we being the input or software in one giant neural network with one final end goal... until I realized its limitations. Setting the obvious regional limitations aside, which have become the all more obvious over the past few years, one of the primary impediments is humanity itself. Most people, and this is especially true of young males, are rejecting the Net en masse as the social device of choice - they're busy chasing life. Those that turn to the Net for the primary social connection represent only a very, very, small percentage of the population. And of these, those that are plugged in twenty four seven really are at risk of getting lost in the mind; it's possible to live an entire life inside the mind, and things can take on imaginary proportions... words, concepts, can acquire abstract form.

Those that turn to the social forum are in search of a connection, in the sense of telepathy.... it's a telepathic connection.

The Net: the good, the bad, and the ugly...

Happiness lives in real life connections, real life interaction. Spend a few nights in the bar with a little foot stomping music and it hits you like a brick. Life was meant to be lived. And everything else is just so much horseshit which, incidentally, is decidedly different from the "bullshit" spilling from my mouth at the moment.