Welcome login | signup
Language en es fr
OccupyForum

Forum Post: we need a system based on meritocracy

Posted 1 year ago on Sept. 8, 2012, 11:07 a.m. EST by JasperAdams (12)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

my name is Jasper Adams. i'm a construction worker. at our company i notice that those with the best ideas go to the top. this is what we need for occupy.

the GA would be better if we all had points like this website. those with more points can talk longer. those will less points only talk a little bit. when a certain number of points is reached, that person is responsible for banning troublemakers and deciding who gets new points.

139 Comments

139 Comments


Read the Rules
[-] 3 points by agkaiser (1299) from Fredericksburg, TX 1 year ago

If you believe in what you propose you'll delete this post. You don't have enough points to participate here. Under your system, you're unlikely to get them. Quit now is your implied message. If your deliberately sarcastic, I'm not mocking you. I'm supporting you.

[-] 2 points by ZenDog (20604) from South Burlington, VT 1 year ago

LoL!

[-] 1 points by agkaiser (1299) from Fredericksburg, TX 1 year ago

It kept getting funnier but when the sucker never caught on I got bored and watched football until I realized I didn't wanna be a scab.

[-] -1 points by JasperAdams (12) 1 year ago

no. my belief is that those who have gained merit are the ones who should delete or otherwise censor the messages of lesser users. i am new. i am without merit. it is not my job to censor this forum.

[-] 7 points by beautifulworld (20418) 1 year ago

You are so full of crap. I'm going to clear this up for new people who have no idea what the heck is going on here. You are one of hundreds of monikers of the troll, Thrasymaque (his original moniker) who has been trying to divide this forum for over 8 months now and who must work for some corporate entity that is against everything Occupy stands for. What you say here is total b.s.

All new people, with zero points, are welcome to post here. They have just as much merit as any of us. Some of us have more points than others simply because we have been here a long time, and, perhaps, people like our comments and vote them up. I vote up the comments of new people all the time and a few fairly new posters are among my favorites. So, take your divisive stuff elsewhere. You love to confuse and stir things up. It's all nonsense.

[-] 1 points by agkaiser (1299) from Fredericksburg, TX 1 year ago

please vote up Jasper's comment above.

[-] 3 points by JasperAdams (40) 51 minutes ago

i only fellate under grave pressure. i respect the authority of those with higher points.

[-] 2 points by beautifulworld (20418) 1 year ago

LOL! Sad.

[-] 3 points by agkaiser (1299) from Fredericksburg, TX 1 year ago

And, to my mind, the funniest, saddest part is: they don't know they suck.

[-] -2 points by JasperAdams (12) 1 year ago

i am not Thrasymaque and i do not wish to divide this forum. the points are there for a reason. people with more points have more merit because more people voted them up. why else do you think this forum uses points? you say so yourself - "Some of us have more points than others simply because we have been here a long time, and, perhaps, people like our comments and vote them up. " that is meritocracy. you have been here longer and you have been voted up. you earned your right to have more merit than me.

[-] 2 points by agkaiser (1299) from Fredericksburg, TX 1 year ago

Who are the arbiters of merit that you fellate?

[-] 1 points by JasperAdams (12) 1 year ago

i only fellate under grave pressure. i respect the authority of those with higher points.

[-] 3 points by howitworks (20) from Tucson, AZ 1 year ago

So let me get this straight. If your system was extended to politics and economics, we'd all fellate the most suckessful businessmen and the politicians they own. Only the richest could make the rules and have the most free speech. That is: we'd all be Republicans and fellate conservative winners.

[-] -1 points by JasperAdams (12) 1 year ago

meritocracy is based on merit not riches.

[-] 1 points by agkaiser (1299) from Fredericksburg, TX 1 year ago

So how should merit be measured, in your kneelingly humble opinion?

[-] -1 points by JasperAdams (12) 1 year ago

like on this site. acts which get the approval of others are rewarded with points. the ones with higher points have more merit. i wrote this posting because this site is an excellent example of meritocracy we should follow in general assemblies. this site does not have points for nothing. you gain points when other users agree with you.

[-] 1 points by arturo (3169) from Shanghai, Shanghai 1 year ago

Some say that our main problem today is that democracy is subverted by mass media and "education". Many people on both the left and the right have been programmed by these sources, so popular support of any idea or individual, may just represent successful mass programming by society's elites.

With our distorted education and media, we have to find a way to educate ourselves on how to manage a society in a way that is beneficial to all of its members.

[-] 1 points by notaneoliberal (2269) 1 year ago

On this issue, Arturo, you are quite correct. Beware the legacy of Edward Bernays.

[-] 1 points by arturo (3169) from Shanghai, Shanghai 1 year ago

Indeed, quite right.

[-] -2 points by neutrino (-197) 1 year ago

That sounds like Illuminati nonsense.

[-] 2 points by arturo (3169) from Shanghai, Shanghai 1 year ago

See how well the programming works?

[-] -1 points by neutrino (-197) 1 year ago

Do you realize that US is one of the worlds most varied think tanks? There an amazing amount of ideas comming from US. There are political scholars writing books about all types of political structures you can imagine, and it's the same for every other field. The amount of ideas coming out of US is way above the rest of the world. The Illuminati are doing a horrible job to control the masses. Horrible.

If you want to find common thinking look in china.

I think the only one programmed is you, by conspiracy theorists wanting to sell books.

[-] 2 points by shadz66 (17766) 1 year ago

'Conspiracy Theory' ; Black Block 'Plastic-Violence / Non-violence' ; 'Partisanship' your constant 'trial ballooning' of wished for wedge issues is a 'Side Show within The Spectacle' (cf 'Situationist Theory') but nevertheless, re. 'C.T.' - a few words are in order.

So we should all consider that while we were not watching, conspiracy theory has undergone Orwellian Redefinition. A “conspiracy theory” no longer means an event explained by a conspiracy. Instead, it now means any explanation, or even a fact, that is out of step with The Government’s given explanation and that of its media pimps.

verb. sat. sap. ...

[-] 2 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 1 year ago

often true

much like other political terms like "liberal" or "conservative"

conspiracy has lost it's meaning

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (17766) 1 year ago

M@tt : Multum In Parvo = 'much in little !!! Thanx !!

pax, amor et lux ...

[-] 0 points by neutrino (-197) 1 year ago

You didn't know the Illuminati was a well known conspiracy theory? This is not fantasy. Do you have something to offer except ad hominem? It's boring. Adding a short Latin proverb does not make it exciting, it just makes it pedantic.

[-] 2 points by shadz66 (17766) 1 year ago

Maybe it's 'all Greek" to you 'Thrasymaque' !

Gnothi Seauton ...

[-] 1 points by arturo (3169) from Shanghai, Shanghai 1 year ago

Interesting! Than why do you suppose it is that the Chinese economy is growing while the US economy is collapsing?

[-] 1 points by notaneoliberal (2269) 1 year ago

I don't know who you were responding to here, but I think maybe China's growth has hit the wall. http://www.cnbc.com/id/48912940

[-] 1 points by arturo (3169) from Shanghai, Shanghai 1 year ago

That's true, China's economy is slowing down. This is mostly due to the fact that its main customer, the west, is committing economic suicide.

[-] -1 points by CarlAndrews (-113) 1 year ago

Plurality of thought is never bad. - Can't say I agree with this. I don't believe plurality of thought is beneficial if it is intentionally induced to confuse issues. If we were so capable of dealing with it, we wouldn't have the problems that we have today.

I believe the US is subjected to the most massive propaganda campaign that has ever existed in history. Most of what's presented in the media is in some way disinformation, either lies, or issues that are simply irrelevant to the grave catastrophe which we face. This is what has brought about today's economic crisis.

It's always good to have many ideas on the table. The problem in US is that citizens live in fear and delusions and have been tricked by conspiracy theories. Those who can snap out of that can easily achieve clear thinking.

The bad economy was caused by the 1% who corrupted the system and used it for personal gain. It has nothing to do with having a country where people are free to express their ideas in various ways. You'll find many examples of countries where thought was highly restricted and the economy did just as bad or even much worse.

You seem to be saying we should restrict thought (censor thought) more severely in US because the plurality of thought is to vast and this caused a problem in the economy. It would be interesting to see you formulate this argument further. How much censorship do you think US should have so that the economy stabilizes?

[-] 1 points by arturo (3169) from Shanghai, Shanghai 1 year ago

I agree that it is good to have many ideas, but our mass media, being owned by the wealthiest people in the world, does not promote ideas for enhancing the common good, but solely to promote the selfish interests of its owners.

The concept of a "conspiracy theory" has pretty much become useless except to function as a derogatory label for any idea that one personally disagrees with.

I don't believe that the people of the US have sufficient freedom to express their ideas. Freedom of the press only belongs to those who own the press these days, and most of our presses have been bought by the global financial oligarchy.

Yes, people can get their ideas own in blogs and such, but not on a large enough level to compete with the mass media.

Actually, I'm not saying that we should restrict the thought of individuals in the US because of plurality. What I'm saying is that most people are brainwashed by elite-owned mass media, and that a way is needed to free people from the effects of that brainwashing.

[-] -1 points by Muon (-1) 1 year ago

Plurality of thought can be a good or bad thing. It is bad if it is used to create division among the people, preventing them from arriving at solutions that are beneficial to all.

Plurality of thought is never bad. We are adults and we can deal with rift in opinions. It's important to discuss issues even if we don't always agree. In the end, truth prevails.

There is censorship in the US also, google rankings, for example, are commonly manipulated to hide or promote certain ideas.

There is censorship everywhere, even on this site. I just got banned and had to create a new user. Why? Simply for expressing ideas.

It's important to be aware that censorship in US is nowhere near the censorship in China. Google is one search engine. There are libraries and other mediums where one can get informed. China has The Golden Wall, it has heavy restrictions on what can be read, published and filmed, it's hard core censorship. It has one government which cannot be changed. Denying this is a step backwards. Freedoms can be improved everywhere in the world, but comparing censorship in US and the censorship in China is losing grasp with reality, it's comparing apples and oranges.

[-] 2 points by shooz (26721) 1 year ago

Besides your lies about thrashy, you should stop contradicting yourself.

It's really not conducive to proper communication.

"Plurality of thought can be a good or bad thing"

"Plurality of thought is never bad."

In your case it's always bad. It's the plurality of your bullshit.

[-] 1 points by arturo (3169) from Shanghai, Shanghai 1 year ago

Plurality of thought is never bad. - Can't say I agree with this. I don't believe plurality of thought is beneficial if it is intentionally induced to confuse issues. If we were so capable of dealing with it, we wouldn't have the problems that we have today.

I believe the US is subjected to the most massive propaganda campaign that has ever existed in history. Most of what's presented in the media is in some way disinformation, either lies, or issues that are simply irrelevant to the grave catastrophe which we face. This is what has brought about today's economic crisis.

[-] -2 points by CarlAndrews (-113) 1 year ago

The concept of a "conspiracy theory" has pretty much become useless except to function as a derogatory label for any idea that one personally disagrees with.

The concept of "conspiracy theory" was created by philosophers and scholars to point to a major thought problem in US. This is very real and should not be disqualified. There is a big problem when people stop thinking scientifically and believe whatever their friends say. Conspiracy theories are based on logical fallacies. They are a real problem. You should read the work of scholars on the issue. These flawed theories have blurred the line between fantasy and reality and have harmed the logical thought process of almost all Americans.

Actually, I'm not saying that we should restrict the thought of individuals in the US because of plurality. What I'm saying is that most people are brainwashed by elite-owned mass media, and that a way is needed to free people from the effects of that brainwashing.

The only way to fight this is to get educated. Throw out your TV and start reading good books. I haven't owned a TV for 15 years and don't miss it one bit. Mass media is like junk food for your brain. Of course if you only consume that it's no good. However, no one forces you to do that. It's the fault of Americans if they spend their days in front of TV, it's not the fault of the government. Go to your public library, and be glad you have one. In many countries they are not even allowed.

[-] 1 points by arturo (3169) from Shanghai, Shanghai 1 year ago

I see, you say conspiracy theories are a serious problem in the US, so I'm sure you must have some "scientific" data to back that claim up. Perhaps you have some studies which clearly show that belief in "conspiracy theories" ruins the capacity to think scientifically? If some scholars have discussed this on the web, why don't you give us a link to their sites?

Suggesting that people read "good books" is pretty much a non-solution, depending on which books you consider to be "good". For example, some people may claim that "The Wealth of Nations" is a very fine book, being a classic on the foundations of contemporary economics.

I, however, believe this book to be a "classic" only in the sense that it is a classic example of how books are used by the elite to manipulate the minds of the masses against their own interests.

Personally, I think people need more of a long term overview of history, to observe those periods in which humanity thrived and those in which it collapsed into barbarity. Those books, and other forms of art, which led to those periods of great prosperity are what we should study as models for our own society.

[-] -2 points by Gluon (-19) 1 year ago

Red herring.

You said that The Global Elites were controlling and conforming thought in the US through TV and advertizement, and I retorted that they weren't doing a great job because US is one of the countries, if not the one, which has the largest plurality of thoughts and ideas being published on a daily basis.

The economy has no part to play in this discussion. Some of the best world economies have flourished under totalitarian systems. Having a country where scholars are free to publish a panoply of ideas and viewpoints does not mean the economy will be good or bad. This has nothing to do with the economy. It's a fact that thought is much more controlled in China than the US. There is a lot of censorship, and there are a lot of people in jail for having writing anti-government papers and books. There is no denying this. Perhaps it makes it easier to run an economy when people are controlled. Who knows. But, economy is not the only thing. I'd rather live in a poor and free country, than a "rich" and authoritarian country like China. In any case, China's economy does not seem to be so stable and I'm quite sure it won't be doing so well in a few decades unless they drastically change their ways.

If you'd like to return to the original topic by dropping your red herring, then I'll be happy to continue this discussion, but if you want to continue changing the goal posts I don't see the point.

[-] 1 points by arturo (3169) from Shanghai, Shanghai 1 year ago

Plurality of thought can be a good or bad thing. It is bad if it is used to create division among the people, preventing them from arriving at solutions that are beneficial to all.

If I discuss someone's reply regarding the topic, I'm not changing the discussion, I'm replying to that person.

There is censorship in the US also, google rankings, for example, are commonly manipulated to hide or promote certain ideas.

There may not be a future for the US or the world as a whole as well, if the US does not change its ways, and stop rampaging with wars through middle eastern and African countries.

If we fail to do this, it will eventually bring us into conflict with the world's other super powers, Russia and China, and bring about a global nuclear war.

[-] 2 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 1 year ago

people with low points or post count

need to be welcomed and encouraged as they are new

[-] -1 points by JasperAdams (12) 1 year ago

i'm not so sure. i think we need to prove ourselves. if you read the comments here you'll see that most agree. i have been insulted by beautifulworld because she failed to read my comments properly. shadz66 doubts me because he thinks i'm Thrasymaque. this is good. with time and good comments i will prove myself and gain merit points. meritocracy is the future.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 1 year ago

nope

the future is maintaining a wide forum base

[-] 1 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 1 year ago

People who continually feed the trolls deserve zero points and even less merit.

[-] 1 points by beautifulworld (20418) 1 year ago

What happened Thrasymaque? Your other tacts not working? Trying to think up new ways to divide the forum?

And, no, your ideas are total b.s.

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

I think you got his number! Well done.

[-] 2 points by beautifulworld (20418) 1 year ago

He won't stop. I won't stop. It's that simple. LOL! :)

[-] 2 points by shadz66 (17766) 1 year ago

GR8 !! Well there's at least two of us 'simpletons' then ~:-)

[-] 1 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

That would leave the forum mascot as the great decider. I don think we want that.

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (17766) 1 year ago

I dare not ask you what you mean ... just stay well, be at ease & carry on regardless !!!

[-] 0 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

A poster has affectionately been dubbed The Forum Mascot.

[-] 2 points by shadz66 (17766) 1 year ago

I do think that you have discovered a whole new meaning for the word "affectionately" !!!

[-] 2 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 1 year ago

can't we just talk directly to each other

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (17766) 1 year ago

Yes & 3 wrdz = photosynthesis is beautiful ;-)

[-] 1 points by notaneoliberal (2269) 1 year ago

You beat me to that one. (I might have been less eloquent.]

[-] 1 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

haha

[-] 1 points by notaneoliberal (2269) 1 year ago

You were extremely tactful.

[-] -1 points by JasperAdams (12) 1 year ago

who is this poster?

[-] -1 points by JasperAdams (12) 1 year ago

no. i'm a protester from dublin. i read about Thrasymaque and did read some of his posts. i do agree with a lot of what he writes. it never seemed to me like he tried to divide the forum.

[-] 2 points by shadz66 (17766) 1 year ago

LOLOLOL !!!

[-] -2 points by JasperAdams (12) 1 year ago

Thrasymaque just seems to be against talking politics. i agree this is no good. we never talk about politics in our dublin GA. we talk about ways to protest.

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (17766) 1 year ago

Fkn 'A' !!! You "never talk about politics" in Dublin !! Worra load of crap ! I know peeps at 'Occ. Dame Street' and where d'you think this wee 'chatlet' can go ... IF I can be arsed ? Honestly (et entre nous) only in the "United States of Amnesia" (Gore Vidal,RIP) is 'talking politics' seen as a grave faux pas !

verum ex absurdo ...

[-] -2 points by JasperAdams (12) 1 year ago

what? are you drunk?

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (17766) 1 year ago

Not yet - but mine's a Guinness with a whiskey (Tullamore Dew) chaser please - IF you're buying ;-)

[-] 1 points by beautifulworld (20418) 1 year ago

LOLOL! So funny. You got him and he doesn't like it.

[-] 1 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

I will be drinking plenty of Blue Moon from the neighbors new kegerator this football Sunday afternoon!!

[-] 1 points by beautifulworld (20418) 1 year ago

I'm making pot roast and just took out my can of Guinness to make it. Enjoy your game, hchc.

[-] -2 points by shadz66 (17766) 1 year ago

He doesn't like getting his round in is what he doesn't like - to be sure ! He maybe usually drinks alone and is unused to convivial company it'd seem. Worra Tight Git !! You can buy me a drink, si tu veux ...

[-] 1 points by beautifulworld (20418) 1 year ago

LOL! Be my pleasure.

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (17766) 1 year ago

Sigh. Swoon. Thud.

[-] 1 points by beautifulworld (20418) 1 year ago

LOLOL! :)

[-] 0 points by beautifulworld (20418) 1 year ago

Your ideas are ridiculous re: the points. Why the point obsession? Sounds like Thrasymaque to me. Has it ever occurred to you that some people have been here for a long time, they get voted up because people like their comments and they don't get banned because they support the movement and follow forum rules? And, maybe those are the reasons they have a lot of points. Doesn't mean they should ever, ever control anyone else's input into the forum. Got that?

And, on another thread you claim all the high scorers are Obama supporters and sadly, oh my, they don't support Ron Paul. Ron Paul is a libertarian, it's the antithesis of what Occupy stands for and no, not all the high scorers support Obama. Thanks for putting that crap out there though. Good job.

[-] 1 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

A few of the things that overlap with the Ron Paul crows are ending the grasp the banking cartel has on the system, legalizing drugs, and ending the wars.

I am for a strong SEC, FDA, etc....but when the appointments are former corporate leaders, you have to at least humor their approach of no gov involvement in order to allow for competition to get a fair shot at replacing the current systems.

[-] 2 points by beautifulworld (20418) 1 year ago

Libertarianism, of the Ron Paul variety, and anarcho-syndicalism or libertarian socialism, of the OWS varieties, which many adhere to here, certainly meet up on the spectrum, but they come from different/opposite perspectives. Both distrust the government as it is operating at the moment. The libertarian solution is to eliminate the gov't altogether while the others think the government and economy can and should be fully controlled by the people and for all of the people. So, similarities for sure, but big differences too.

[-] -2 points by JasperAdams (12) 1 year ago

i think the points are good. like you say, they help identify those who have earned points by being here long and contributing with good comments. these people have more merit than others. i am not obsessed with these points. i think they are good and could be used in a GA. where did i say that sadly the people here did not support Ron Paul? i hate Ron Paul! lol read my comments again. i don't think we should vote. the system is broke. we should protest.

[-] 0 points by beautifulworld (20418) 1 year ago

I think maybe I misunderstood your comment below to mean that you wish you did see more RP supporters here. Sorry about that.

http://occupywallst.org/forum/where-is-occupy-in-the-election/#comment-829361

[-] -2 points by JasperAdams (12) 1 year ago

hchc said that many occupiers were Ron Paul supporters. i said it did not look that way on this forum. from what i see here, most people seem to favor Obama. i favor not voting like most people in my GA in dublin.

[-] 2 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 1 year ago

Not voting is just what the 1% wants. Throw down your weapons and they won't just take your freedom, but your children's too. This isn't the time to make soft, pleasant choices, but hard and firm decisions.

MLK and Ghandi would never consider giving up their vote. They risked their lives just to obtain that right. Why would you give that up?

[-] 1 points by ZenDog (20604) from South Burlington, VT 1 year ago

I've got a lot of points.

Does that mean I get to assign points?

This is gonna be fun.

hey, hc, you zero you . . .

hehehe

[-] -1 points by JasperAdams (12) 1 year ago

did you earn those points with good posts? i ask because i don't know how the point system here works. if you did, then yes, you should be able to assign points to people with less points and you should be able to moderate their comments.

[-] 1 points by ZenDog (20604) from South Burlington, VT 1 year ago

I think that is silly. you have no way to know for sure to what degree - but obviously I would assign points on the basis of my own personal bias.

What are required are simple guidelines, and moderators who will follow those guidelines. Usually it helps when you know who they are. It tends toward keepting them honest.

[-] -1 points by JasperAdams (12) 1 year ago

who are the moderators here? do they take part in the discussion? i used to visit another occupy site where the moderators never contributed but they were the ones controlling the discussion by banning what they did not like. that site no longer exists.

[-] 1 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

What site was that?

[-] -1 points by JasperAdams (12) 1 year ago

occupy chicago forum

[-] 0 points by bensdad (8977) 1 year ago

points do not make the man

[-] -2 points by shadz66 (17766) 1 year ago

Correct but a man should make a point - at least occasionally, right ?!!!

[-] 0 points by BradB (2693) from Washington, DC 1 year ago

no..... the site gives points to issues & comments .... not to the person .... it is just displays the persons accumulated comments points .... focus on the issues and consensus building... and all will fall into place ...

[-] 0 points by shadz66 (17766) 1 year ago

Strange That This Post & Thread do NOT really seem to be about The Issue of "Meritocracy" at all !

Rather it seems to be much more about the 'problem of points' !!

fallaces sunt rerum species ...

[-] 1 points by JasperAdams (12) 1 year ago

do you think points are a problem? from what i gather they help us know who contributed most and earned more respect. it's a way to identify merit.

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (17766) 1 year ago

Points are evidently a "problem" for some. In short I am a militant for Democracy, Equality of Opportunity And An Egalitarian "Meritocracy". Finally, consider that "merit" is as 'merit' does.

verb. sat. sap. ...

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (17766) 1 year ago

Cross referencing this thread with the thread on :

fiat lux ...

[-] 0 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

Whoah. You realize the people who are least like the ones at the GA here are the ones with the most points?

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (17766) 1 year ago

Please would you consider expanding on your assertion. Thanx in anticipation.

fiat lux ...

[-] -1 points by Forrester (13) 1 year ago

At the risk of 'opening up a can of worms,' those with the most points on the forum do not necessarily represent the principles of the movement on the whole, in fact......

[-] 4 points by shadz66 (17766) 1 year ago

'ForresTer' : re. "At the risk of 'opening up a can of worms,' those with the most points on the forum do not necessarily represent the principles of the movement on the whole, in fact ..." and of course this is actually logically and empirically true and reasonable - prima facie.

However, consider that that "can of worms" was opened some time ago, mainly by The Self Appointed Gauleiter 'leading' the self-declared 'Troll Team Trashy' on this forum !!! TrashyTroll is much vexed by the points system here because it is one of the few things that he can NOT subvert so easily. He also probably desires to 'bed in'/embed new monikers and personas with readily acquired and accumulated points and in order to further facilitate his 'The Trojan Horse' activities on this forum.

This Thread is insTigated by new poster one 'JasperAdams', who also seems to be already familiar with the 'NY-OWS-GA' and who will surely read his own Thread. Thus, gentlemen - I'm curious as to your Thoughts about This matter of the fixation on points and Their relevance to anything at all here.

ad iudicium ...

[-] 0 points by Forrester (13) 1 year ago

shadzy having a bunch of points, and risking losing them all is not a big factor for me in saying what I believe to be true. You cannot deny that the point system has been used as a form of punishment..."nefariously" on here for people who do not believe that partisan politics should have any role WITHIN this movement. I know that is has damn well....I'm Odin. Even so, i do not have 'sour grapes'.....or any ulterior motives.....and I will not be controlled by any of this foolishness. You may not always agree with me, but all that I am interested in, is the success of this movement. That's all.

[-] 3 points by shadz66 (17766) 1 year ago

Odin : We have much more that we agree upon than we don't & have always had a good and cordial friendship. I wish you nothing but well & extend my hand and wish you and yours, peace and protection over health, home and hearth.

We have different perspectives on the word "politics" as I see it beyond parties but we both abhor the One Corporate Controlled & Co-opted WAR & AUSTERITY Party ; Two (Demoblican/Republocrat) Factions ; Faux Choice. We both & most here - remain, Partisans for The 99% ~*~

SOLIDARITY !!!

pax et lux ; nunc et semper ...

[-] 1 points by Forrester (13) 1 year ago

Thanks shadzy. We agree on much more than we disagree on, and I know that we both want the same thing in the end. I too wish you, and your loved ones all the best from across the Pond. You are definitely the 'mostest class act' on this forum.

Solidarity

[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (33128) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Odin - shadz may not agree with you and I myself and many others may not agree with some of the things you do. Like I don't think admin is real pleased with you. So behave yourself or they will likely boot you again.

[-] 1 points by Forrester (13) 1 year ago

Yes, we all have to "behave" ourselves DK. I want this forum to continue to be a great place of learning, sharing, and teaching, however i would also like to see it become more of a place of organizing, and connecting with the streets...I will continue to push for this, and try to do so in a non-offensive way. In any event, this forum/movement should not turn into election central

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (33128) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Right now the election is an immediate issue - so it should be getting plenty of attention. If admin thought otherwise they would have said so.

[-] 1 points by Forrester (13) 1 year ago

Much like the labor movements in the past, we have to remain a radical movement. The union that I belonged to most of my work life prided itself in its 'militancy,' and so should we.

[-] 2 points by notaneoliberal (2269) 1 year ago

Maybe you need a history lesson. labor unions have used "the system" from way back to further their ends. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_Labor_Party_(California)

[-] 0 points by Forrester (13) 1 year ago

No, no history lesson needed. Labor unions were autonomous and they were driven by 'militancy/radicalism.' Through that position of strength, yes they did eventually garner the support of politicians. The problem we have now is that this stuggle is in its infancy, and just about all forms of resistance to the rise of crony capitalism triumphing over democracy have been decimated. To divert this struggle into a political one would be disastrous to our wanting a sea change in the way our political and financial institutions are run. That being said, there will be politcal advances made from our pushing on the outside, and I could care less who takes credit for them.

[-] 1 points by notaneoliberal (2269) 1 year ago

You are quite correct about the success of crony capitalism /aka neoliberalism. Still I'm not convinced that ignoring "the system" will make it go away. Pushing from the out side or pushing from the inside may have positive results, imo.

[-] 1 points by Forrester (13) 1 year ago

Thanks, but I also do not pretend to have all the answers. To a big degree, we are in 'uncharted waters.' I will say this: 'Show me a union in the private sector that has lost its 'militancy,' and i will show you one that has either become ineffective, or that is no more. The push from the inside is the job of the dems, moveon, and perhaps altruistic good government groups, not us. This delineation of tasks is paramount to our success. We have to remain the radicals in my opinion, which is shared by the overwhelming numbers of people that i know in the streets.

[-] 1 points by notaneoliberal (2269) 1 year ago

To me, it's hard to say which is the chicken and which is the egg on the union issue. Have they lost militancy due to loss of power, or did they lose power because because of loss of militancy. It is my view that the greatest tool the neolibs. have used against the unions has been the free trade propaganda. No union, in any nation can have much affect when the threat to send their job elsewhere, without penalty, is a very viable one. Unfortunately, many US citizens bought into the idea that free trade was a good thing.

[-] 0 points by Forrester (13) 1 year ago

The war against unions for the most part began during the Reagan administration, with the air traffic controllers being the most notable example. It is also at that time that neoliberalism .....as in free trade, NAFTA, trickle-down, etc....... was instituted. We were sold a bill of goods that was supposed to be beautiful. It wasn't. For every shiny new city in the developing world, we have one here that looks like it has been bombed out.

[-] 1 points by notaneoliberal (2269) 1 year ago

FTA=free trade agreement

[-] 0 points by Forrester (13) 1 year ago

Of course.....it was late/early, couldn't think. Hedges has also talked about how people suffer when commodity prices are manipulated.

Getting back to the "which is the chicken and which is the egg issue." When the union I belonged to which encompassed numerous marine transportation companies in NY, basically became a sweet-heart union, yes I do think the members had lost most of their militancy. Over the years, it became a very good blue-collar job, and hence attracted a better educated group of people...or people who did not understand the sacrifices of the people who preceeded them. They were a generation, or two removed from the more "militant" members that founded the union.

I believe though the laws concerning union rights were already by then being written to the detriment of the workers (it was 1988). The companies hired a Philadelphia law firm that guided them in the process of breaking our union. The Coast Guard also worked with the companies in not enforcing regs, and basically overlooking the errors made by the replacement workers, and there were plenty of them. So, it was a combination of reasons that brought our union down.

[-] 1 points by notaneoliberal (2269) 1 year ago

What you say is very true. What is often even less understood is the negative, destabilizing effects the FTAs have in the other nations. Neoliberals would have us believe that they are lifting the poor and down trodden out of poverty. That is not the case. A good case in point is the dumping of cheap, US government subsidized corn into mexico. This has driven the small family farms out of business, forcing them to either cross the border into the us to find a job, or starve.

[-] -1 points by Forrester (13) 1 year ago

There is rarely any concern given to the negative effects that our economic policies have on real people. FTAs...fed tariff acts? Good night

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (33128) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

They no doubt also vote.

[-] 0 points by Forrester (13) 1 year ago

No doubt that people will and should vote, but the difference between us DK is what 'this' OWS movement should be about

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (33128) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Which apparently the admin disagrees with you and agrees with me. The Admin that put up this site and keep it going. The admin that has booted you.

[-] 0 points by Forrester (13) 1 year ago

Whatever DK. I have enjoyed an afternoon of agreeing with most of what VQ has said, and vice versa. Imagine that! 'Booting,and the forum administration' are most on your mind. They are not on mine though. I am only interested in the success of this movement, and I will continue to be an independent thinker.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (33128) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Stay an independent thinker - you were the one going after my stance - I just let you know that you are wrong.

[-] 0 points by Forrester (13) 1 year ago

Yes...I will always be an "independent thinker." 'Right-Wrong' about the direction that OWS should take is a matter of perception, and I will always follow my conscience DK

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (33128) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

That's fine every one should follow their conscience - but no one should be blind to truth.

[-] 0 points by Forrester (13) 1 year ago

We can leave it at that

[-] -3 points by neutrino (-197) 1 year ago

You still believe in the system? Stop loving Obama and start loving OWS.

[-] 3 points by DKAtoday (33128) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Pull your head out of your (x) - you will find the door quicker.

[-] -1 points by neutrino (-197) 1 year ago

http://occupywallst.org/forum/the-be-ows-for-one-day-pledge/

Sign this pledge and help OWS create a stronger impact by having more people in the street.

[-] 0 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

The system exists! corrupt as it is. you don't recognize that pols/parties have the power we want back?

We ain't gonna take the power back from the 1% plutocrats if we pretend there are no elections.

Voting can only help by keeping the worst out of power!

Replace pro 1% conservatives with pro 99% progressives & protest, pressure, agitate all pols to get money out of politics and real change to benefit the 99%.

[+] -4 points by neutrino (-197) 1 year ago

There are no pro 99% politicians. This is what you fail to comprehend. The system is broke my friend. Corrupted to the bone.

[-] -1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

I disagree!

[+] -4 points by neutrino (-197) 1 year ago

That's because you don't understand OWS.

[-] 0 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

"delusions"? that's offensive. Please refrain from childish name calling.

I guess we're done.

Peace.

[-] 0 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

I understand American politics. That's enough. I support OWS but it ain't in power and I won't pretend there are not elections in 7 weeks.

You want to surrender more power to the right wing that has created all our problems?

[-] 1 points by neutrino (-197) 1 year ago

Obama and Romney are both right wing.

[-] -1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

I don't "love" Pres Obama. I love my wife, and child. I disagree with you that Pres Obama is right wing.

Please refrain from schoolyard bullying personal attacks.

Thx

Peace

[-] 0 points by neutrino (-197) 1 year ago

There were no personal attacks. Only in your delusions.

[-] -1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

I disagree.

[-] -2 points by neutrino (-197) 1 year ago

Obama lovers always do.

[-] -3 points by JasperAdams (12) 1 year ago

it seems the point system is a good way to keep track of those who are more involved in OWS than others. it looks like people get higher scores for better comments. this is a good way to identify merit.

[-] 2 points by shadz66 (17766) 1 year ago

You seem to keep strange hours for a "construction worker" & further, scores for better comments are analogues to voting and votes and voting can be alas, subject to manipulation and gerrymandering for possible nefarious ends.

multum in parvo ...

[-] 1 points by JasperAdams (12) 1 year ago

You seem to keep strange hours for a "construction worker"

from this comment and others on this posting it seems you doubt new comers. this is natural and good. in a meritocracy people have to prove themselves before what they say is taken seriously. i have 11 points. you have 7200. you should doubt me and i should look up to you.

i am from europe and take part in the GA in dublin.

our GA could learn a lot by emulating this site and use a point system.

[-] 2 points by shadz66 (17766) 1 year ago

Please consider that all posts and comments should be able to withstand any healthy scepticism. I was active on the 'Live Stream Chat' of 'Occupy Dame Street' in the early days of 'Global Occupy' so my true SOLIDARITY to all Occupiers In Ireland, a once proud nation yet now usurped, 'occupied' and sold out by their own 0.01% treacherous plutocratic and parasitic 'elites'.

luck maith agus a bheith go maith ...

[-] 0 points by Forrester (13) 1 year ago

The point system has become skewed to say the least through an assortment of different ways.

[-] -1 points by JasperAdams (12) 1 year ago

how so? do you say this because of your low score? we must respect those who have earned their merit.

[-] -1 points by Forrester (13) 1 year ago

No, it would not matter to me, but for anyone new coming on here, they could come to the wrong assumption. Read the other comments on here, and come to your own conclusion.