Forum Post: "We are 64%" Join us!
Posted 12 years ago on Dec. 14, 2011, 10:39 p.m. EST by MASTERdBATER
(15)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
As I am sure most of you have already denied recent Gallop polls showing what the majority of Americans identify as the most pressing concern to date. If your not aware of the poll would you guess the issue was corporate greed? If you answered yes then you, just like the rest of OWS are dead wrong once again.
64% of bipartisan Americans consider over reaching government as the largest concern in our nation today. OWS would see it that Americas biggest fear is given more authority and control in order to stifle the free markets.
I did not post this to be amused by all of the deniers and people with insults. I simply wrote this to once again drive the point home that YOU ARE ALONE.
Assuming the poll you refer to is accurate (I doubt it), why should we react to it? If 64% of bipartisan Americans consider over reaching government the "largest concern", do they abandon every other concern?
Should we lay off all the cops, firefighters, and teachers? Why keep them on if they aren't addressing the "largest concern" in our nation today? Should we throw out all the posters of missing children and violent criminals? Why keep them if they don't address the "largest concern"? Should we stop funding the military and lay off every soldier? Why bother with international terrorism if it isn't the "largest concern"?
How is it that a self proclaimed but poorly spelled 'MASTERdBATER' could live in a world with so many profound issues and disregard all but the latest Gallop poll?
Get my drift? Should we take a poll?
Speaking of polls, check this out:
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/09/21/poll-two-thirds-of-americans-want-taxes-raised-on-the-rich/
The point was your agenda is the polar opposite of popular opinion among actual Americans.
C'mon. If you're old enough to play marbles, you know damn well thats BS. The poll doesn't indicate polar opposites. Unless of course, the same poll puts corporate greed at the bottom of the list. Beneath the fear of albino lobsters taking over the world.
By the way, how do 64% of bipartisan Americans feel about raising taxes on the rich?
I imagine at this point you probably could gain more support to "annihilate albino lobsters" than you would for "annihilate capitalism"
Is there a gallop poll to back that up?
By the way, I'll repeat the question: How do 64% of bipartisan Americans feel about raising taxes on the rich?
Is it really so hard? C'mon you will feel a lot better once you accept it. The truth is often difficult, but can be a lifeboat once accepted. I can only hope for you and your friends that one day you can come to terms with your foolish pride. If you continue on your current decent you may find yourselves the target of concern for all Americans.
The truth is that most Americans are fed up with obscene income inequality. Most want taxes raised on the rich. Accept that.
prove it or GTFO
Check the polls.
You people that say, the rich should pay their fair share, are greedy, lazy, out of touch little babies. Tell your damn elected officials to pay for their bullshit as we go. What a bunch of fucked up people. Run our country into oblivion, don't pay for a fucking thIng, except by increasing our dependence on the commie Chinese. What the hell is the matter with you OWS retards? This is the greediest damn generation ever on the planet. This congress, and many before it, should be taken out back and given the Stalin treatment. Wtf?
The most profitable industries in the world (energy, healthcare, finance) have been given billions in government handouts and tax breaks. Meanwhile, they keep raising charges causing hardship for millions. With all those massive handouts, tax breaks, and obscene charges, profits rise to record high levels. Millions in bonuses are paid to the executives. With record high profits, record high dividends are paid. 1/2 of all dividends in the United States are paid to the richest one percent. The bottom 95 percent of Americans share about 3 percent (that's three percent) of all dividends. The rest are paid to the top 5 percent and foreign investors. All of this causes a gradual concentration of wealth and income. This results in a net loss for the lower majority who find it more and more difficult to cover the record high cost of living, which again, is directly proportional to record high profits for the rich. As more and more people struggle to make ends meet, more and more financial aid becomes necessary. Most of which goes right back to the health care industry through Medicare, Medicaid, and a very expensive prescription drug plan. This increases government spending. This has been happening for 30 years now. During the same time, tax rates have been lowered drastically for the richest one percent. Especially those who profit from investments. These people pay only 15 percent on capital gains income. As even more wealth concentrates, the lower majority find it more difficult to sustain there share of the consumer driven economy. Demand drops as more and more people go broke. Layoffs results. Unemployment rises. This results in less revenue and more government debt.
Massive subsidies and tax breaks for Wall Street, massive tax breaks for the super rich, heavy concentration of wealth, record high charges along with record high profits and record high cost of living, more hardship for the lower majority, more government spending in the form of financial aid to compensate, more concentration of wealth, less demand, layoffs and unemployment. All of this results in slower economy and less tax revenue. At the same time more and more financial aid becomes necessary. It's a horrible downward cycle which gradually pushes the national debt higher and higher.
The other big factors are the wars in the Middle East. One of which was waged specifically to protect the resources of the oil industry. To date, the oil industry has not contributed one dime to the effort. Instead, they make record profits which remain partially subsidized by Federal, State, and local governments.
Hey farley! Ever consider any of this? Wtf?
Next.
pffft. you want me to make an effort and find a link? what do you think I am a capitalist?
jokes aside, do you have a link to specifically what you are trying to convey?
Your right over reaching government is a big concern, many OWS protestors would not disagree with that......heres what I am talking about - The Patriot Act - Indefinite Detention of US citizens without due process - Assassination of US citizens without due process - Data mining - The enormous size of the NSA - Government mandated for profit health insurance which amounts to corporate subsidies for insurance companies - corporate subsides for the oil industry and big agricultural companies - manipulation of the currency and interest rates by the FED to favor the 1% - government bailouts for failing banks - US military in 150 countries around the world - Endless war in the middle east - the Militarization of the police force including the use of beanbag guns pepper spray and tear gas on non-violent protestors to suppress free speech - the criminalization of marijuana (a drug less harmful than alcohol) - the imprisonment of non-violent drug offenders - the use of deadly force in countries we have not declared war on - the attempt to pass SOPA which would give the government the ability to shut down internet sites without due process - secret lending by the FED at below market rates to big banks .........I could go on all day, you get the point I hope
Heres an other figure, 70% of americans believe corporations have too much influence in government , 80% are against citizens united, considering that getting money out of politics is one of the main goals emerging from the movement, I think we are doing just fine with the American people
Great post. I'm going to save it for my collection.
[Removed]
Another right-wing self-proclaimed jerk-off trying to con us with a bullshit right-wing push poll.
I see these issues as two sides of the same coin. Why are laws becoming more and more restrictive while the for-profit prison business is booming? I'd say more than a coincidence and that's just one example.
It appears that your user name is apropos after dropping the d.
A little obvious aren't we?
All that indicates is that 64% of this country is still living in the 60s and 70s when overweening bureaucracy was an actual threat to personal liberty and lack of technology (which means far more union-protected blue-collar and middle management positions, and no real possibility of outsourcing) meant that corporate power on the level we see now was pretty much inconceivable. That's pretty much on the level of saying that 64% of people believe that the earth is flat or that evolution is false; the past is the past and errors are errors. What does it say about you that you can't accept that?
it would also speak false of your 99% statistic...hmmmm
I always thought that "the 99%" wasn't the best slogan because anybody who wants to be deliberately obtuse about what it means can run around accusing us of hypocrisy without actually having to make a real argument one way or the other.
I believe the slogan had as much forethought as this entire "movement"
No, the slogan doesn't make sense, and no, the movement isn't as swift or efficient as it could be. That said, equating moderate inefficiency and occasional poor planning with self-delusion (or for that matter calculated fraud, which is the other accusation I hear a fair amount of on here) makes no sense. If we were actually out to sell snake oil to people, why would we be so loud and disorganized about it?
You do know the story of the little "boy who cried wolf" do you not?That is exactly why you should not be so loud and disorganized about it.
You have now cried "wolf" for over three months. Do you think anyone is listening for you to cry "wolf" today.
The information provided in the OP is FACT. You can interpret it however you want, but it will not change. Bottom line, you will not succeed because you clearly do not speak to popular opinion. It is not snake oil you are selling, it is outright communism and people will not stand for it.
Next time you start a "movement" maybe you should find out what the desires are of the people you are supposed to represent.
Seriously? You people take anything that doesn't involve further corporate deregulation, categorical disassembly of the federal government, and by extension further damage to our economy and our environment and decide that it must be communism, when in actuality communism is so far to the left of pretty much anybody within half a mile of a seat of power in this country and most of what even the most audacious of our politicians (Warren, Kucinich, etc.) are center-left politicans.
Maybe you have inside information I do not. I base my opinions off previous posts, threads, articles, and youtube that states the constant message of OWS which all push towards an idea to "annihilate capitalism." How can you speak for a group with no leader, formal agenda, or anything other than this forum to instruct you on what opinion is?
How do you know what you say would be supported by OWS and not classify you as a troll?
All your reply means is that you are unable to accept the fact that Americans want less government not more. You are blinded by your socialist belief.
There are certain rights that no man should be able to abdicate even if for some reason he wants to. A man should no more be able to subject himself or his countrymen to the tyranny of corporations than he should to the tyranny of the government, and that's the whole point of OWS. Private corporations are at least as much (if not more) of a threat to personal liberties than the government and people should be able to see that by now.
Name the company that can put you in jail. Force you at the point of a gun to surrender your property. Take away your right to be heard or assemble or freely practice your religion.
Now tell me again how a corporation threatens liberty as much as the government does.
Name the government that can march into your town, plop a big fat factory farm next door to you, and happily marinate the entire area with rotting pig shit until people start dropping of hydrogen sulfide poisoning. Name the government that can force a mom and pop store out of business and turn upstart entrepreneurs into $7.25 per hour minimum wage employees who are now underwater on their mortgage and their car loan. Name the government that has gotten away with poisoning hundreds of American citizens and their pets with only a slap on the wrist as punishment.
As far as taking away one's right to be heard or freely practice your religion, let me put it this way. If you go public with a political stance that is not in line with what your company is looking for they can fire you because you're an at-will employee. If you're openly practicing a religion your boss disapproves of he can in fact fire you for some made-up reason because you're an at-will employee. In a situation like this the prospect of being fired is at least as much of a chilling effect as the prospect of being jailed.
A company also can in fact force you to surrender your property; just look at the list of wrongful foreclosures that have been going on since 2008 because banks couldn't be bothered to make sure they were foreclosing on the right house. As far as jail is concerned, the way intellectual property is set up in certain places you can in fact be jailed for attempting to market your own ideas, even if you developed them on your own time, if you developed them while employed because your contract signs over your right to your own thoughts and ideas to them...
Come on ARod1993, you are all over the place in you comments. You can only make a point by blaming incidents on one specific entity (company or corporation) PLEASE NOTE:
I have one employee. If I disapproved of my employee' religious practices, I could, I assume, fire that one employee for their open practices. Why limit your comments to the company or corporation. You like to deal with percentages 99% vs 1%. Simply put, I could fire 100% of my employees for religious reasons and I seriously doubt that any company or corporation you know of could do the same thing.
If you do not read and understand an employment contract - is that the employers fault. If you are working for a company like Apple and you come up with an operating system on your own time which directly incorporates ideas from you job with Apple, I would fire you too.
My argument is this: you're right that I am pulling out injustices that theoretically could be committed but haven't been widespread enough or public enough to be splashed across the headlines and thus are not necessarily an obvious problem. My point is that most people's arguments against the government are about as firmly grounded as my arguments against corporations. You fear giving them power, even explicitly limited power, to do things that need to be done, on the assumption that it will lead to widespread injustice and abuse of the people. I made the same series of arguments about corporate power and got told such things could not happen. My point here is just that you should use the same rules of evidence for the government as for corporations.
Very well put. Perhaps what this country needs more than anything is a statement (similiar to that regarding separation of church and state) similiar to:
Separation of corporations and state. However, we would have to face the fact that that is a two way street and it would free up the corporations (or any business) to do as they wish without oversight or controls placed by the government. This gets to be a very tight rope to walk.
\ I can agree that there needs to be some type of line drawn between the government and corporations - but that line would then apply to each entity and how they influence, control, regulate, lobby etc the other. How does this country reach that happy medium??
If we fight to get corporations out of the government - do we also accept getting the government out of corporations??
your argument lies with the chicken and the egg.
All you need to do is back campaign finance and lobbying reform, and then once that happens the government will be clean enough that it can be trusted to act in the best interests of the people and keep the private sector on as tight a leash as it needs to.
I agree with you on this one.
Even though I am for limiting donation to individuals, therefore excluding corporations, interest groups, unions, and PACs, I am not convinced that eliminates bias and favoritism.
Cap donations by individuals in a given campaign cycle to a number like $50 or $100 that most people would be able to spend with only few consequences.
You make this far too difficult. The reality is that everyone controls where and with whom they spend their money. Stop spending with those you disagree. Buy local. Corporations have no power if they have no earnings.
Everyone also controls their own vote. Vote the idiots out. Only about 50% of voting age eligible vote in a presidential election year. Closer to 40% in a non presidential yr. The incumbents believe they have support because they are reelected.
so when you shop local, where does that local store get it's product from? probably a corporation, or two. that local store itself may also be a corporation. it would really help this movement to not look like a bunch of clueless kids. not trying to insult but it would help if everyone were able to define these things.
I'm attempting to simplify. Of course small businesses may be corporations. Our family business is a corporation. I understand local businesses may acquire goods from other corporations.
Point is that if you are mad at walmart, don't buy from them. If you don't like the fact gm took taxpayer money, then filed bankruptcy and won't honor warranties from old gm, don't buy from them.
I decide where I want to spend every dollar. You can also.
Absolutely correct. We need a consumer controlled website for grading of businesses. grades should be based on whether or not their employees qualify for assistance, bonuses that are excessive, quality of product, support for their product, vendors and manufactures they chose and the grade of those companies. that would be a good start anyway.
Still too complicated. Just pay attention. We don't need all this oversight. For instance, if I need a handyman, I don't pay any attention to newspaper ads or yellow pages. I ask my neighbors and friends who they use. I ask people I respect and trust and that I know share similar values with me.
the site would be for more than consumer information. it is equally important the employees begin to filer out who they will work for. it will take both sides of the coin to be effective. we had a buy Made is USA campaign in the 80s. it died off because it was only a concept and slogan. it will take a system in place and a concerted effort if it is to be effective. your concept of how to handle it would be effective, if it want the majority approach. a web campaign is needed to create the same system across the board that everyone can empower. simple ideas like what you present have been tried for 30 years with no result.
Then I have been giving people too much credit. We have evidently raised a couple generations of idiots if they can't control themselves. No one make you spend money you don't want or have to. No one forces you to vote for someone you don't want to. No one forces you to take a mortgage for 110% of the value of a home.
Come on, people need to start taking responsibility for themselves.
there is a good chance that i cold identify at least 10 things in your house made by child labor. does that make you one of those people you speak of? i'm sure just a little more info could have prevented those purchases.
Oh come on, is there any Venezuelan oil in your gas? The country is run by a socialist who hates the us. Does your wife have a diamond mined by slave labor? On and on and on. You gonna have a consumer controlled website to inform us which toilet paper to use.
when has providing information ever been the same as dictating? there is a downside to having information about companies that doesn't rely on government cheese?
Corporations are made, owned and controlled by people and those people rotate in and out of them. A good leader can lead a company one way (Costco for example) and a bad leader can lead another way (Sears).
I personally don't think they are much of a threat because capitalism has spread to so many more countries now, that the level of competition is much higher so companies have to be more efficient and more responsive now than they did in the past. The American auto companies would be a good example of this.
See my reply to toonces below as to why I disagree with that interpretation; the taking of liberty isn't necessarily as simple as one might think. Also, by that rationale we should be able to trust the government at least as much in theory because on some level we choose the people in our government. Despite this, a lot of people don't trust the government because right now they know that the theory and the practice disagree enough to be obvious. I'd advise you to apply the same skepticism to private industry and you'll be surprised by what you see.
Of course I apply that skepticism to private industry and I make myself heard by either giving them my money or not.
People or corporations that break the law, a la poison somebody, are more times that not brought up on charges and sent to jail.
I understand your anger over large bureaucracies (corporations) but if you really want to make them hurt then, produce a competing product and take profit from them, that will make them listen.
If you are angry at your bank, form your own bank and do it better than them.
I have my money in a community bank (that has not been bought out, and should it get bought out I'm going to a credit union without a second thought) and when I get a job I plan on either founding or getting involved in a start-up after college. Ideally I'd do a couple of years in Engineers Without Borders or Habitat for Humanity when everything shakes out. Assuming I'm lucky enough to be involved in a startup that takes off a la Google I plan on spending a lot of my money doing venture capital for small businesses, college scholarships, and community development in my neighborhood. I fully plan on practicing what I preach, and I'm lucky enough to be in a position to do that. I advocate for the things I do because I want to look out for people not as lucky as I am.
Then OWS needs to step up their game! I love troll posts like this, it gets me energized! So you are now trying out the phrase "over reaching govt" since "govt tyranny" reeks of 1%er agenda? We are not falling for it.
"Over-reaching govt", for those poll respondents who don't know, is code for "Let the corporations trample all over workers and the environment with nothing to stop them whatsoever." We need more government regulations over these corporate abusers, not less.
In case your naive mind still doesn't get it, THE CORPORATIONS WRITE THE REGULATIONS TO REGULATE THEMSELVES, all they do with those regulations is kill the small guy. The democrats sell it to you as if most regulations protect the small guy, the fact is the polar opposite. That is why, as an independent, I said it before and I'll say it again: the dems are a lot more dangerous than the republicans, their propaganda tactics are more sophisticated and play to the naive, it's a game of pressure from above and below...
Look up Koch Brothers, how they are pushing this Libertarian agenda that favors the 1% at the expense of the country. Whether you are aware or not, you are a tool to them. You have learned to spout their lines. Stop getting used.
No I haven't learned anything from them, I learned from actual legislation, you should try it...
Samll biz get a lot of exemptions the concept you spread is simply disinformation.
For each regulation that you can provide to me that helps small business, I can provide 3 that kills it...
Small business don't write the rules, the corporations do.
show me some. post them. i'm not going to debate prepackaged party line talking points. provide some legislation to debate. OWS has pointed to glass steagal, citizens united, and so many more. provide some data.
Citizens United would be the last (well maybe anything out of the Huffington Post) thing I would ever reference for anything no matter what side I sat on.
your statement was unclear. reference in what context? how does this apply to what i said?
I was simply saying that if OWS is referencing anything from Citizens United, they may want to choose another source. They are truly the greatest threat to the downfall of our country.
referencing only means 'refer' to it. i referenced Citizens United but the context is one that points to it as being a form of corruption.
fantastic response. very observant.
Needing more regulations is one thing, being able to define them is another. Please give us five examples of government regulations that you think would solve the problem as you see it. 1,2,3,4,5 Please.
Name the company that can put you in jail. Force you at the point of a gun to surrender your property. Take away your right to be heard or assemble or freely practice your religion.
Now tell me again how a corporation threatens liberty as much as the government does.
You need to understand the police don't really work for the people's govt anymore, they work for corporations.
http://occupywallst.org/forum/the-days-of-slave-labor-enforced-by-police-and-mil/
The corporations are the government, more government plays right into their hands...
Not entirely, fortunately. There are parts of govt that are trying to rein in the corporations.
Better for government to help me than have to suffer alone. I can't stop polluters on my own at all. I have a chance with govt.
http://www.wltx.com/news/article/163530/2/The-Year-of-the-Protester-
Columbia, SC (WLTX) - With a year of protests nationwide, Time Magazine named the Person Of The Year for 2011 "The Protester." We asked Occupy Columbia protesters why they feel the "Occupation Movement" is needed.
"We believe in democracy and freedom of speech and we are fighting to accomplish that; to stand-up on our soapbox and be heard," said Kyle Lacio.
For the past 61 days, that's what Occupy Columbia protesters like Lacio have been doing.
~~----------------~~This movement continues to just get bigger (already noted), but Occupy is the news story of the year even as the main stream media continues to bash it and the trolls on the internet make fun it.
Protesting and Occupy has changed the national/ the world debate. Plutocracy and Corporate cronyism; bailouts for CEOs with tax payer money. People like Jon Corzine stealing 1.2 billion dollars of farmers' money and walking away (No More)... ~~~~ http://www.zerohedge.com/news/presenting-three-unscripted-sentences-may-have-cost-jon-corzine-his-freedom
~~~~ AND we are not going to let the Congress get away with turning the country in a 1984 Brave New World Police State: http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-250_162-57343287/wh-oks-military-detention-of-terrorism-suspects/
Will will protest until it is overturned...let democracy speak; let freedom ring... In the world's of John Paul Jones, "I [We] have not yet begun to fight!" "Give me Liberty, or Give me Death!" -- Patrick Henry
"Live free or die: Death is not the worst of evils"
64% of Americans are selfish and concerned only about themselves? Shocker!
interesting perspective. Some might say that an attempt to sway popular opinion to give way to personal agenda's may be considered selfish. Once again we discover that the world through the eyes of ANY individual is relative.
No one in OWS is trying to "sway popular opinion to give way to personal agenda," but you did just describe the right-wing agenda perfectly.
This is a troll post, they spread "action alerts" to get their trolls to come here.
MASTERdBATER, you just splooged on your face again.
LMAO! Fantastic stuff. Love the use of the word "splooged". Funny shit.
Get your mind out of the gutter "X", or is that where you live??
If this post shook the faith of just 1 OWS supporter, than it would appear you as the one with splooge on your face.
There it is - you did it again. Need a tissue?
As you can see from a response or two, there is no substance in the reactive OWSers, just bile.
More government is certainly not the answer. In America, the answer lies in hard work, a will to succeed, managing your money, and paying attention to detail. Every day there is a new success story in America!
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Mr socialist pls go away. Find somewhere else to steal pay.
I agree. If the government would leave everything the heck alone we could get back to work.
Good luck getting any OWSers to post anything substantial on this one. I posted the actual words from the passed NDAA S. 1867 on here last night that completely dispelled all the fear mongering posts on this site and guess how many responses I got? ONE and all it said was grow up. They don't want to debate fact. They don't want to hear truth. Good post though, they can't dispute one of the most recognized by partisan polling systems in the world.
there is no point to try reason or logic, it is quickly lost here. My last two sentences explain my sentiment toward any response.
Yup, it is somewhat entertaining though.