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Forum Post: Was Steve Jobs a Good Man, or an Evil Corporate CEO and Wall Street Shill

Posted 3 years ago on Oct. 6, 2011, 1:58 p.m. EST by MikeInOhio (13)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

As most of us know, Steve Jobs is a great man who turned an idea into one of the world’s most profitable companies. He made billions, and many of the people who worked for him made hundreds of millions. His company set sales and income growth records that surpass those of even the largest oil companies.

I find it interesting that when I see images of the “movement” on television everyone seems to be holding a smart phone. (I personally have never owned an Apple product; I find them to be a little too expensive for my purposes). Apple certainly makes great products, does a great job of pretending to be green, and advertises to (hypnotizes) the hipster generation. Making tablets and telephones is a very dirty business- a lot of dangerous chemicals, copper, chromium, gold, nickel, silver, etc. All these minerals come from dirty mines that (according to the “movement”) despoil the environment and exploit workers. How do you justify this seemingly obvious hypocrisy in your movement? And how do you afford those expensive phones and 4G service. I can’t afford it and I work 50 hours a week?

160 Comments

160 Comments


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[-] 3 points by LOVEPEACE (199) 3 years ago

He was just another slave in the system. Trying to buy freedom and directly supporting child labor and slave camps to pursue this sickness at any cost.

Steve jobs was good at making money. He was not an engineer. He was not a designer or a software developer. He had a deep drive to make money and that is what eventually killed him. Like most of us.

I am not judging him. I am not his moral superior. His death is an eye opener. To celebrate him is kind of sick. I feel sorry for him. He could never be free, he lived a frantic life on the run. In a race for freedom we can all relate to. He never found it.

[-] 0 points by raines (699) 2 years ago

he died of pancreatic cancer. He lived a life of his own choosing.

[-] 0 points by figero (661) 2 years ago

yea -Jobs was a victim just like the OWS people lol!

[-] 0 points by sirfrancis (0) 2 years ago

He made the annual salary of $1 a year. The stock options he had on Apple and Pixar/Disney made him good money. And you are judging him talking about his drive to make money, his freedom, a frantic life and being able to relate to him. I can't relate to him or you. I can't relate to myself even on some good days. How do you know what he was thinking? That's right, you're not judging....baloney!

He had a drive to make excellent products that everyone can use easily. He had a great sense on the product people wanted, he broke all the rules when it came to marketing - and it worked. If it hadn't of worked and the products sucked, we would not be here complaining or praising Steve Jobs.

[-] 0 points by FuManchu (619) 3 years ago

Good at making money but not a good engineer? Why do you think people are willing to pay a premium to own apple products? It is because they just work. They are aesthetically appealing. They are simple to use. It required creativity to come up with that. If it was just the greed for money, any greedy person should be able to create such things.

He was a strict taskmaster at work. That was because he wanted perfection.

Just calling him a slave of money is a very simplistic view.

[-] 1 points by LOVEPEACE (199) 3 years ago

Apple makes good and useful products. But if their driving intent was to change the world then i think they've missed the mark. Of course there is still time.. I don't know what they do in terms of promoting truth and freedom. Maybe i am wrong. Maybe Steve was a proponent of those things in his personal life. So on some level maybe you are right. It should be obvious i wasn't a personal fried of his. I don't know him.

[-] 1 points by pinker (586) 3 years ago

sure, he changed the world for people who could afford a Mac. everyone else, the poor, were just shit out of luck as far as apple was concerned. his software could be made to work on less expensive equipment, but that wouldn't make money: they make their money off of their hardware. if they really wanted to change the world and gave a crap about the poor of the world, we'd all be able to afford Macs.

[-] 1 points by LOVEPEACE (199) 3 years ago

I couldn't agree more pinker. What i really believe is Steve Jobs died of guilt for not standing up for the Chinese children he exploited to pump out iphones and ipads.

[-] 0 points by tritone (36) 3 years ago

Former Apple CEO John Sculley and Jobs' original founding partner Steve Wozniak both have said that Jobs was never interested in money. He was interested in the changing the world. Legacy events of the tech revolution that he started would include the "Arab Spring" uprisings in Tunisia, Egypt, Libya, etc. I would say that qualifies as changing the world. He was a practicing Buddhist, vegetarian and was influenced by Picasso, Einstein, Gandhi, John Lennon, Bob Dylan, etc. So he was not killed by a deep drive to make money. It was pancreatic cancer that killed him. If you think that communication and free dissemination of information are important cornerstones of a truly free democracy, than you can celebrate that Jobs truly helped to implement this in a real way with his belief that the user experience was the supreme consideration in making the power of digital technology available to all in an intuitive human way. He wanted the power of computers and all that flowed from that to be available to all people. Not just the rich, corporate overlords of the American aristocracy. Before Jobs, nobody thought that truly personal computers, computers that didn't require knowledge of command line instructions, were possible or practical. If you aren't a computer engineer/programmer and can use a computer, thank Steve Jobs.

[-] 2 points by LOVEPEACE (199) 3 years ago

Look, i don't want to get into a flame war about Jobs. But i think you are really parroting a bunch of fluff about him that has been delivered since his death. Search Apple Chinese Suicides. Also Apple Child Labor. This is mainstream information. He may have wanted to change the world, but he can only make change as per his intention and the fruit of his labor speaks for itself. Steve Jobs was ALL about closed systems so talking about him being an advocate for free information is just plain wrong. That's not my opinion. He was applauded for the success of his locked down market place. It was one of the driving elements of Apple's success. The iphone was one of the first handheld devices used to track and record ALL location information. This information, along with private email and browsing history was ALL sent back to Apple from itunes. Again, not my opinion or conspiracy theory. Common knowledge. Apparently this feature got programmed by mistake but was left in anyway. The newest tech SIRI on the 4s is old DOD software. It is used for predictive analysis on a large scale and granular level. This is not freedom. He was an excellent business man. He was not an advocate for free information or fair labor. I could go on and on. But you can take a look for yourself if you are interested. Just get past the fluff that has been pumped out since his death. All that said, if you read any older biographies you will see that many people who worked closely with him (including Woz) thought he was an egomaniac and control freak. He ran a company that built some cool stuff.. He made a ton of money. He didn't bring any attention to Peace or fair labor... and i think this conflict in himself WAS at least partly responsible for his death. It creates sickness in people. Being forced to be and do things we know are not True.

[-] 1 points by tritone (36) 3 years ago

My better half has been severely disabled since the age of 12. Low income family. She has been in pain for 40 years. The first 18 years of our being together, there was not really anything she could do because of severe joint deformation. But she had artistic ability and one day we saved enough money to get a used Mac. She never had one class or lesson from anyone. The elegance of Jobs OS and Adobe software allowed her to figure out the whole thing entirely on her own. Since then she has been working like crazy, albeit way underpaid. Where would she be without the Apple Macintosh? Wouldn't have happened on Windows. So what if Woz thought he was an egomaniac and control freak. I never said the guy was saint. He had a lot of darkness as is not too unusual for humans. I've heard some pretty bad stuff about him but feel that it's not fair or realistic to judge from afar. Even if you personally knew him, you still may not have had a clear picture of all his motivations. Do you know why YOU do everything that you do? What evidence do you have that he was not for free information? His products would seem to contradict that thought. Also, if the iPhone did not exist, do you think the government (if they are as snoopy as you say, which I wouldn't doubt) would just throw up their hands and say, oh, we can't track personal information any more. They would track persons of interest no matter what technology was available. They've been tracking people ever since they had the ability. Apple is not the only company that wants emails and browsing history for sales purposes. His closed system is probably what kept the quality of Apple so high, if I'm understanding what you're talking about. And maybe it established a standard that forces lesser companies to aim higher instead of foisting their typical "it's good enough" standards on an undiscriminating American public. And the superior user interface of Apple products would enhance communication/free information, seems to me. The foreign labor issues are troubling. I don't know that much about it. I've heard that Apple contracted in good faith, insisting that fair labor practices be followed. I imagine it's hard to enforce in other countries. It's also possible, although I don't know much about it, that his Buddhist beliefs may have included allowing other humans to make their own mistakes, with reincarnation as the instrument of continuing instruction in this world before being allowed to continue to the next. You may think I'm parroting but maybe you are making a lot of assumptions about the intentions and motivations of people you don't really know.

[-] 1 points by LOVEPEACE (199) 3 years ago

Photoshop, Illustrator all run on windows. Even linux running wine. I use all of them myself. The interface is the same across all platforms. Steve had companies in China to save money and appease stock holders. Apple's marketing strategy has included convincing everyone that Apple products had a superior and more obvious UI. In some cases this was true.. but in many cases it was literal lies. But to be expected, his company was about MAKING cash. Where they could dominate they would. Marketing, technology etc. Re: the government.. The government encourages companies to create and develop oppressive systems so that they can use them. This is how the most popular companies become the most oppressive. Look at MS, Apple, Google and Facebook. The government encourages them and gives them special treatment for following along. That is the problem most are talking about.. whether they know it or not. The markets are not free. Anyway.. i am not saying the things they make are not useful. I am suggesting that those that become the most pervasive actually are the most oppressive by design.. because that is what is encouraged and promoted by those seeking preservation.

[-] 1 points by tritone (36) 3 years ago

I'm surprised at your opinion on the ease of use issues of Apple products. Our opinion was not formed by reading about it but by talking to friends and acquaintances who had used both. Some who migrated from Windows to Apple. But primarily from personal experience. I've always liked the design of Apple products as far back as the Apple II. I appreciated the fonts before I even knew what a font was. Even today, when I look at a screen on a Windows machine, it looks gaudy and inelegant for some reason. re: making money. Apparently, Ross Perot told Jobs that if he wanted to keep making fun things he had to start making money on a regular basis. I don't think it's unusual for many of the most successful people to have a distaste for the money making side of things. They became successful because they followed their passion. Re: gov't /oppressive systems. I don't get that at all. If you have some suggestions on things to read, I'd be interested. The Apple products we have, and they are many, have been liberating in how much usefulness they provide. In fact, they offer so many choices it's bewildering to know what direction to go sometimes. I don't see oppression. I see liberation and empowerment. And if you look at Apple in a more global sense, I don't see the evil they produce as nearly anywhere close to the amount of evil that is produced by companies like Halliburton or political entities like the Republicans and, most disappointingly, Obama and the Democrats. How many Americans have died every year because of lack of health care? When I see loved ones, friends or acquaintances suffering due to American health policies, I see political players as being the true villains. Technology, much of it Jobs legacy, will help the poor and weak fight the rich and powerful. Geez, even Foxconn putting that net out to prevent suicide jumps (very sad and damning) is FAR, FAR more effort to save lives than Obama's gutless capitulation on universal health care. We'll see how his plan (originally a Heritage Foundation idea,right?) to enrich the health insurance industry plays out. There should be NO health insurance industry, except for maybe some boutique services for the wealthy. THAT, to me, is a far more obviously egregious humanitarian transgression than whatever the failings of Apple have been. I will, however, keep your views in mind and perhaps look a little more into Apple's overseas operations. The gov't/oppression by design concept sounds a little paranoid/conspiratorial to me but I'm not knowledgeable on such matters and open to learning new things although that sounds like a depressing scenario. If there is more public awareness of Apple and others overseas lack of humanitarian oversight, maybe some pressure can be brought to bear and make them a little more motivated to persuade the Chinese or whatever gov't to intercede?

[-] 1 points by LOVEPEACE (199) 3 years ago

It's one thing to have people die unnecessarily because of policy. It's another thing to have a policy of murder or one that supports murder or oppression. We are in 4 sickening wars right now and i could care less about american healthcare. Without the wars we could all have free healthcare while simultaneously stopping the murder of millions. YES MILLIONS. In terms of talking to the chinese govt.. They are not APPLE. Shouldn't Jobs have lead that effort? Why make excuses? The prick went out and chose those factories to save money. SIMPLE. Full of child labor and terrible conditions at a great price. HE is the LEADER of APPLE. HE DECIDES. Same with OBAMA. If our president can't stop war then what good is he? Time to stop with the excuses. ALL OF US. Just STOP. Take responsibility. Trust me, if you spend 10 minutes looking at war footage of innocent children being KILLED and maimed in Iraq, Libya and Afghanistan your tune will change very quickly. It is absolutely disgusting. It is beyond anything you can imagine. KIDS being mutilated and killed by bombs we PAY FOR. It is not acceptable under ANY CONDITIONS. If you think this is acceptable then why do you think the people commanding these murders give a CRAP about your health care? Hey you make excuses for those "deaths" (murders) than make an excuse for your own.

JUST DEMAND PEACE. ENOUGH!

[-] 0 points by tritone (36) 3 years ago

"LovePeace", why are you screaming at me? I have been trying to say I will consider your views even though I'm not clear on exactly what you're saying. LovePeace, where did I say that I condoned the murders of millions? Do you think it is rational to accuse Steve Jobs of crimes that are the same as a drone predator hitting an Afghani wedding party? You seem to have a particular vendetta against Jobs as opposed to Dick Cheney. Do you think Jobs was as bad as Cheney? Or whoever is the head of Halliburton now? Or what about the CEOs of the various defense contractors? Do you think an iPod is as lethal a killing machine as a cluster bomb? I've spent plenty of time watching my own loved one suffer severe, unrelenting pain for months at a time in addition to the daily pain she has endured for 40 years. Don't lecture me about watching people suffer. Where the hell did I make excuses for murders? And with your hateful, accusatory tone, where do you get off calling yourself LOVEPEACE? Is this how you want to engage people in trying to understand your views? Geez, here I am trying to tell you basically I will try to support your views that I'm not that knowledgeable about and you go off and rant at me. There are many areas in the world where horrible injustices occur. We can't be on top of all them at once. I've been sending money to Kenya via Childfund International every month for 30 years even when I was not making any money. If the areas where I choose to focus my attention, with whatever resources I have, are not up to your saintly standard, well, I'll just have to apologize for not being as holy as you. Love? Peace? Where is it?

[-] 1 points by LOVEPEACE (199) 3 years ago

tritone, you are not a murderer and you don't condone it. I know that. I am guilty of supporting this sick system with apathy and fear. And now i am done. It's not my intention to judge you. I don't know you. I am reacting to what i am seeing as a very critical situation. I am not screaming at you personally, although i can totally see how you got that by reading the above. I am sorry. You are 100% right. It is time to come together. I feel sick looking out into the world and seeing what is going on. People like Steve Jobs have a lot of direct influence. They have a lot of responsibility. Not because someone is sitting and judging them.. but because of the positions they are in. Peace. I support what you are personally doing to make a change!

[-] 0 points by FuManchu (619) 3 years ago

Most successful innovative companies are built by people to whom money is secondary. It is the passion that gives them the energy to do that.

[-] 3 points by kristianb21 (33) 3 years ago

Steve Job was not evil, he actually was selling something with his ideas; bad shit is that Apple manufactures outside the US. Now corporate banks selling people's mortgages and dept collections all in a nice little package screwing you over for every time it trades on the market. I say, blame the banks not the corporations. When banks loan corporations fiat money, banks put in their own executives in the corporate Board of Executives.

[-] 1 points by MikeInOhio (13) 3 years ago

So it's not the corporations, per se, it's the evil bankers who loan them "fiat" money? What about the person who starts a small bank and grows it by making good mortgage and small business loans? There are 9 or 10 of them in my City, and none of them accepted Federal bank loans.

[-] 1 points by equazcion (688) from New York, NY 3 years ago

We're obviously not against those private banks, in fact the movement is encouraging people to move their money out of big federal banks and into smaller private ones.

[-] 1 points by taxbax (159) 3 years ago

well the problem is that you can't separate evil companies from good companies in law. This is why we need to focus on government and elect politicians we can trust.

[-] 1 points by kristianb21 (33) 3 years ago

@equazcion Exactly! We encourage local credit union to support local economy not foreign big banks. And it does suck how FDIC insures people's money by law, that's why big banks take advantage.

[-] 1 points by LibertyFirst (325) 3 years ago

Do you mean just big banks? There aren't any Federal banks.

[-] 1 points by equazcion (688) from New York, NY 3 years ago

By federal I was referring to financial institutions that participate in the fed, but yes I misspoke, the larger public banks who are closely affiliated with, or are themselves large public corporations, are the ones to avoid. I'm no expert though.

[-] 1 points by LibertyFirst (325) 3 years ago

What you are looking for then is a state chartered bank (most community banks fall into this category, but you need to ask them). Savings and Loans are also not part of the Federal Reserve System. Credit Unions may or may not have corporate, Federal or state affiliations--you have to check. All other banks participate, by law, in the Federal Reserve System.

Most banks, whether part of the Federal Reserve System or not, are corporations.

[-] 0 points by MikeInOhio (13) 3 years ago

Who are the fools that are buying these packaged mortgages?

[-] 0 points by Frankie (733) 3 years ago

Well, for one looks like the American Federation of Teachers held $257,946 in those nasty Wall Street collateralized mortgage obligations in their investment portfolio as of their "LABOR ORGANIZATION ANNUAL REPORT" for the AFT for FY 2009-2010. See SCHEDULE 4 - PURCHASE OF INVESTMENTS AND FIXED ASSETS here:

http://aftexposed.com/documents/AFT2010LM2.pdf

Now just sit back and take in the irony for a moment...

At the same time that AFT is lending its support to OWS, it could be holding a piece of one of the 99%'s near-foreclosure mortgages. ; )

[-] 0 points by MikeInOhio (13) 3 years ago

You forgot how much ATF had invested in GM bonds,. Remember the sham bankruptcy?

[-] 0 points by Frankie (733) 3 years ago

Didn't forget, just thought that one was a particularly poignant example.

As I recall the union bond holders made out OK in that deal didn't they? Tiny Tim pulled some strings and they got paid while the rest of us 99%ers got subordinated and stuck with the tab.

[-] 0 points by MikeInOhio (13) 3 years ago

The union made out well, but no one else did,

[-] 0 points by Frankie (733) 3 years ago

We would have been screwed either way. If not then, probably later by having to bail out their pension plans. Which given the piddly interest rates now and most of those defined benefit plans assuming something like 7% year still isn't necessarily out of the picture.

I think that's likely the next big financial disaster. If you think people are screaming now, wait until some of those big pension plans start having troubles.

[-] 1 points by LincolnCA (160) 3 years ago

won't be long until those pension plans start floating belly up in this aquarium!

[-] 0 points by MikeInOhio (13) 3 years ago

There is an interesting article in The Economst this week that had me thinking about the same thing. 7% is a pipedream now. Even 4% is a stretch.

Thank you!! Mike

[-] 3 points by Cafree (80) 3 years ago

Mike, I kept my last laptop six years before it finally fell to pieces and during that time I saved up for a new one little by little. I don't think that just because someone has a smart phone they are not sincere. Let's not demonize people for not being "pure" enough here. I fully agree we need to step back and hold these companies accountable. I was in China for two years and NOT in a touristy area at that. I saw what these American factories are about and it's not pretty at all. AT ALL. Many of the media team are running on donations. Holding these corporations accountable to the people is what this is about and when that happens perhaps the issues you listed there will not be allowed to go on.

[-] 1 points by MikeInOhio (13) 3 years ago

Cafree,

I'm sorry for not responding sooner. I agree, it is very hard to US-based companies to compete against this sort of nonsense. I don't agree with much of what goes on over there, and I agree changes need to be made. You make an excellent point.

I'm not trying to demonize anyone; I'm simply pointing out the fact that many, many of the protesters don't appear to practice what they preach.

[-] 2 points by Divinityfound (112) from Lincoln, NE 3 years ago

If you can't afford it... I highly doubt that you work 50 hours a week... either that or you are raising a family of 4. They aren't insanely expensive.

And we are more concerned with the government and corporations being in bed together.

I'm not an apple user, I work 50 hours a week, can easily afford it, just don't care to spend the money on it. So your point is easily missed...

[-] 1 points by MikeInOhio (13) 3 years ago

A family of 5, actually. I'm not saying they are expensive, but it seems odd that all these people who supposedly can't find a job. What's your 4G service cost, $60 per month. Why not donate it to charity instead of entertaining yourself?

So was Steve Jobs in bed with the government? Or his he just a "nice" multinational, money-grubbing, corporate CEO?

[-] 1 points by Divinityfound (112) from Lincoln, NE 3 years ago

Steve Jobs I really don't care for one way or the other. People are more concerned with resolving the issue of the fact money is in politics.

And you might be surprised... many of those people do have jobs. Many of them can afford the luxury of having a phone. But to go without a phone is far worse.

I pay $60 a month for my phone service and I have a second phone courtesy of work. But the work phone is just for that. The personal is so that I can have the privacy to do what I want without my boss seeing who I call and talk to.

And I don't donate to charities. I simply am using any of my extra money to pay into advance the services I use... ie Rent, Phone, Internet, etc.

But if a corporation doesn't care to have my money... then they can just cease providing the product or service. But they exist to make money... that is it. I don't care that they exist to make money. I care that they aren't paying their fair share of taxes, and hell, even I think I don't pay enough taxes.

[-] 1 points by anshulgoyal (1) 2 years ago

Catch all about the new Comic Book on Steve Jobs at http://www.chillgeeks.com/2012/01/now-a-comic-book-on-steve-jobs.html

[-] 1 points by owstag (508) 2 years ago

Your post's title suggests a false dichotomy; it's a simplistic assumption that Jobs was either a 'good man' or an 'evil corporate CEO and Wall Street shill'. The green angle here seems a bit forced; I'm not disagreeing necessarily - it's an interesting question - but without reliable sources to vet your assertions I suspend judgement on whether the industry is 'dirty' in the sense suggested.

A lot of great innovation took place under Jobs' direction, but he was not himself a tech wiz or engineer. It's not even clear that he was the principal visionary behind Apple's innovations. Rather, it seems he was just real good at getting smart people work for him to make other smart people's ideas a reality and getting rich people to invest in development and marketing and finally, in getting middle class ( many working poor) to buy the stuff. He is also widely said to have not been a very nice guy.

Do, my informal analysis based on limited knowledge suggests he was probably closer to the latter ('evil CEO', lol) than 'good man'.

[-] 0 points by MikeInOhio (13) 2 years ago

False dichotomy? Please

[-] 0 points by journey4word (214) 2 years ago

I heard Nancy Pelosi uses one of those strap on False dichotomys but it's considered normal in her district.

[-] 0 points by MikeInOhio (13) 2 years ago

That's funny!

[-] 1 points by UPonLocal (309) 2 years ago

Maverick, I use cheep PC

[-] 1 points by number2 (914) 2 years ago

He was great for America. Jobs made his money honestly and is a great example of the American dream. Apple is a good example of what is so wonderful about capitalism. I hope everyone can tell the difference between good corporations like Apple and fascist corporations on Wall St., in healthcare, in the military, et al.

[-] 0 points by MikeInOhio (13) 2 years ago

Apple is as bad, or worse, than any other company that assembles in China.

[-] 1 points by number2 (914) 2 years ago

that is the governments fault. The government made those deals and Apple just went with the system as it was, to be competitive.

[-] 0 points by MikeInOhio (13) 2 years ago

The government made what deals?

Apple opened assembly plants in China many years ago. It's no secret, and the Federal government certainly had nothing to do with it.

[-] 1 points by number2 (914) 2 years ago

NAFTA, CAFTA, GATT and others, that made it cheaper for businesses to have it made elsewhere and exported American jobs. The federal government regulates interstate commerce per the US constitution. They made the rules and Apple followed them.

[-] 0 points by MikeInOhio (13) 2 years ago

You make a good point, but there was nothing from stopping companies from locating in Asia 20 years ago,

I assume you would prefer closed borders?

[-] 1 points by number2 (914) 2 years ago

thank you. That's the first time anyone has told me I made a good point here at OWS. I guess I'm getting better at point-making.

Not closed borders but definitely we should not screw ourselves in trade deals. In other words the American people should not allow the government and multinational corporations to screw the American people.

[-] 1 points by ramous (765) from Wabash, IN 2 years ago

But the government did, NAFTA being the largest example. Its a multi-faceted corruption that works hand in hand. The corporations buy the politicians with donations and contributions and the politicians pave the way (or look the other way for) the corporations.

[-] 0 points by MikeInOhio (13) 2 years ago

I do not agree. So you don't like NAFTA? How would you replace it?

[-] 1 points by ramous (765) from Wabash, IN 2 years ago

I would amend it. That for a company to remain in business in the USA that 51% of their product has to be produced IN the USA.

[-] 0 points by MikeInOhio (13) 2 years ago

Competitive disadvantage.

[-] 1 points by tomcat68 (298) 2 years ago

Ironic isn't it?

From a middle aged blue collar point of view? It seems to boil down to mostly our youth venting their aggravation at having to work tword their goals. Hell they load up Youtube and watch their music Idols loaded down with bling bling, money, cars, and mansions and they want that lifestyle also, and they want it now. I think most of the world, and especially those struggling within impoverished nations see them as being ungrateful and just plain old spoiled rotten.
on the bright side. it is sites like this where they can get through it. I've actually read a few bright comments and questions today. Some of the posts here are from future leaders, most are from well.. the aggravated venters. It used to be called "Tantrums"

[-] 0 points by MikeInOhio (13) 2 years ago

Tom,

It's the 5% of the people, like you, who make this fun.

[-] 1 points by yatleung (1) 2 years ago

I cannot afford these flashy products either. I make 40K/ year with a PhD (pathetic). After paying for rent, decent food (no ramen noodles), gym fees, gas/car repairs for commuting (2 hrs/day for a crummy job), there isn't much left in my piggy bank (I am gonna quit Bank of Am in a few days and switch to a credit union).

[-] 1 points by DavidEsrati (3) 2 years ago

Steve Jobs reincarnated as an advocate for changing elections in the US on YouTube? http://youtu.be/NElfD8Afa0k Put the power in the hands of the people.

[-] 1 points by blanceoptimum (4) 3 years ago

We have to do something practical, Occupy the market, not steets. List some of the bad companies and boycott their product. The most fair way to run a company, is to let employees have the most of the shares, can we start some companies like that? It doesn't have to be big to start, like we can make hamburg and stay away from KFC?

[-] 1 points by blanceoptimum (4) 3 years ago

We have to do something practical, Occupy the market, not steets. List some of the bad companies and boycott their product.

The most fair way to run a company, is to let employees have the most of the shares, can we start some companies like that?

It doesn't have to be big to start, like we can make hamburg and stay away from KFC?

[-] 1 points by blanceoptimum (4) 3 years ago

We have to do something practical, Occupy the market, not steets. List some of the bad companies and boycott their product.

The most fair way to run a company, is to let employees have the most of the shares, can we start some companies like that?

It doesn't have to be big to start, like we can make hamburg and stay away from KFC?

[-] 1 points by MikeInOhio (13) 3 years ago

I agree with you 100%. Occupy Washington, and occupy the the damn people who funnel the money to the campaign funds.

[-] 1 points by cklau (10) 3 years ago

Steve is no evil. He's a monster, a frankenstein sort of.The reason he's that way is simply because we make him buy buying his expensive products from apple.

[-] 1 points by MikeInOhio (13) 3 years ago

I find it AMAZING that these protesters all seem to be Apple suckers.

[-] 1 points by americanboy (48) 3 years ago

Comparitve advantage. US does not offer a competitive environmentally for business.

[-] 1 points by MikeInOhio (13) 3 years ago

Not at the moment, certainly. We need 10% corporate taxes.

[-] 1 points by americanboy (48) 3 years ago

Ruthless capitalist, college dropout, adopted. Witness the Sprint cell deal. He overcame and had a vision. Not a political man. Let others assemble the product for lesser wage. Intellectual capital and the entrepreneural spirit will propel the US.

[-] 1 points by MikeInOhio (13) 3 years ago

I have no idea what you are talking about.

[-] 1 points by AN0NYM0US (640) 3 years ago

Steve Jobs is not evil. He is an inventor who has helped the industry.

Apple however, outsources jobs. Allows it's outsourced workers to work for $2 a day, in terrible conditions. Many workers commit suicide. All this just to save money.

THEN, when they save all that money, where does it go? Not into the customer's pockes. Apple products are the most over-rated products and over-priced products ever. I once tried to buy a Macbook. They tried to tell me a laptop with a pentium processor was worth $1300 just because it had some metal case and a enslaved form of linux?! Wtf? I could buy the same technology for $300.

Point is, Apple allows it's company to do terrible things, WHILE ripping off it's customers, and producing te most brainwashing ad campaigns EVER.

Don't get me wrong, I respect Steve Jobs. He pushed the industry forward, even if he did fall behind after the iphone/ipad. and congrats to Apple who found a godly marketing team.

[-] 1 points by IdFightGandhi (38) 3 years ago

What people generally don't understand about the Chinese outsourcing process is that "American" companies who manufacturing there, don't own the factories. The work is sourced to contractor manufacturing like Foxconn. It gives apple an out to say THEY don't violate human rights or pollute, it's their suppliers. Having a communist country to block out any bad events is also helpful, we never hear about most of the problems over there thru the supply channel.

If a contracted manufacture were to be exposed, they will simply change shops, problem solved. Apple walks away with little damage.

Apple has $80billion in cash. They could have created many jobs in the USA but chose not to. It's funny and sad that they get all litigious about patents when chinese knock offs hit the streets. How dare those slave wage earners make some money off apple!

[-] 1 points by MikeInOhio (13) 3 years ago

I'm the same way. I have never purchased an Apple product. They have always been great, but they just cost too much.

[-] 1 points by AN0NYM0US (640) 3 years ago

Plus, they are always behing on he innovations. Nothing is "REVOLUTIONARY" from them. Yet people keep flocking: "iPhone 4s, practically the same as every other iphone has sold out. The iPhones are okay people. but there are other phones with soooo many more features.

[-] 1 points by pinker (586) 3 years ago

and how much has apple made off the schmucks who used apple credit to buy their pretty laptops? what bank do they use?

[-] 1 points by pinker (586) 3 years ago

steve jobs was a self absorbed prick. had the indigent of the world only had apple products available they would have been left out of the communication age and many of these events around the world would not have taken place. here's to cheap PC's and Cisco.

I'd be embarrassed to use an apple laptop amidst a group of poor people.

[-] 1 points by MikeInOhio (13) 3 years ago

The more I have read about him the past few days, the more I tend to agree. I need to edit my original post!

[-] 1 points by opensociety4us (914) from Norwalk, CT 3 years ago

all 3

[-] 1 points by Bizinuez (120) from Raleigh, NC 3 years ago

Hey look another either/or all or nothing proposition. How did we become so simple?

[-] 1 points by tritone (36) 3 years ago

Everybody is guilty of hypocrisy at some level. The fact that you're using a personal computer to write your comment owes a lot to the user friendliness that Steve Jobs worked maniacally to implement in machines that were previously very user un-friendly. Can your computer show images? Images in color? Can you point and select objects or phrases? Maybe to lower your own level of hypocrisy in this particular instance you should use an old style typewriter and make copies on a ditto machine and you could hang your critique in your local library and hope word of it spreads like wildfire across the nation. But no, you have an international forum here. Thank Steve Jobs. All of us living in America should be a lot more cognizant of past injustices done to Native Americans. We're all hypocrites for not doing something about that, not to mention all the starvation and killing going on in Africa while we sit here and complain about idiot Republicans. Of course, on the other hand, if a general awareness can be raised about the plight of the less well off in this country, maybe it will someday grow to include the rest of the world. Are you really more concerned about the hypocrisy of an iPhone user than about the domination of mainstream media through Fox News and conservative talk radio as mouthpieces for the big corporate interests that control the allocation of American wealth through their bought and paid for puppet politicians and Supreme court justices?

[-] 1 points by RichardGates (1529) from Fort Walton Beach, FL 3 years ago

compensated employees http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Employer=Apple_Computer%2c_Inc/Salary/by_Job

sh!t on employees http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Employer=Best_Buy/Hourly_Rate/by_Job

but yet many positions between the two take similar skill levels but are compensated very differently. you just thought you were cool :P

[-] 1 points by number2 (914) 3 years ago

Steve Jobs is a great example of the virtues of capitalism. The 1% consists of people who worked hard and made their money honestly, as Jobs did and then there are those who stole their money from this country. They should be rooted out like the den of vipers that they are. They are the fascists AKA crony-capitalists and the whole spectrum of diverse people in this country are interested in eradicating them.

[-] 1 points by rxantos (87) 3 years ago

Irrelevant, the man is dead and is was not the cause of the economic debacle.

[-] 1 points by MikeInOhio (13) 3 years ago

It's a discussion point. At this point it is irrelevant.

[-] 1 points by rxantos (87) 3 years ago

So the "not the cause of the economic debacle" is irrelevant. Interesting.

[-] 1 points by MikeInOhio (13) 3 years ago

Who is that intended for?

[-] 1 points by FuManchu (619) 3 years ago

What do you think the OWS is about?

By the way, making any electronic device involves a lot of chemicals. Most industrial products, for that matter. Does it mean we go back to not being an industrialized society? Over time we will find better ways to make things. A long time ago lead was used in paints. Now we don't have lead in paint.

OWS is not trying to say rich = evil. That is what ideologists say.

[-] 1 points by MikeInOhio (13) 3 years ago

I agree. Let's make better products.

[-] 1 points by wavefreak58 (134) 3 years ago

False dichotomy.

Why do I have to choose one extreme or the other?

[-] 1 points by looselyhuman (3117) 3 years ago

He was always pretty much one of the greedies, despite his/Apple's slick counterculture image: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16373057/ns/business-financial_times/t/apple-falsified-files-steve-jobs-options/

[-] 1 points by gawdoftruth (3698) from Santa Barbara, CA 3 years ago

neither. both. everyone has a brilliant side and everyone has a shadow. when somebody dies its important to honor the best in them and hope that helps them to move closer to the light. Everybody has good and bad in them he was certainly a fine example of this, hardly one end or the other.

Like everyone else he was a victim of the unevolved system, fer sure.


to get serious requires a few things they don't have. like chat admins who aren't ego serving propaganda tools, a wiki, 1001 sub forums, an actual game plan, a straight up political platform... you know.. basic organizational things sane people do BEFORE protesting.. like figure out a diplomacy and logic centered metaprocess to give their chatadmins so that they don't really just drive out even more people than the trolls. Adminatrolla. trollaAdmin. Whats the difference to somebody whos got the truth facing a propaganda tool abusing admin powers to push their agenda? how can you prevent such a thing? Metaprocess. did i mention metaprocess? and science diplomacy science psychology science sociology and all those textbooks to read B4 protesting?

you can't have capitalism without a free(SLAVE) market. but you can have a free market without capitalism. And thats strangely the only way it CAN work.

Marketing 101 was fascinating. I admit thats a lot less than a bachelors but its sure more than enough to see whats really going on given the other things I know. Capitalism is not the problem since it does not exist. corporate oligarchy is the problem. capitalism has never been tried. I am a democracy guy. in order for real democracy to function a free market system is required. Thats not capitalism. thats a free market system. there is a subtle difference there which most people would miss. I will again repeat. Neither capitalism nor marxism nor communism nor socialism has ever existed. All of those governments were oligarchy pretending to be something as a con scam. Telling that simple truth gets one banned out of the Chat by either a capitalist or a socialist whos pissed you just said their pet ideology isn't real. It isn't. anybody who thinks that it is is accidentally playing for team corporate oligarchy as a tool. the ONLY system worth talking about is DEMOCRACY. how democracy HANDLES a FREE MARKET system is dynamic and interesting and NOT capitalism.

o. yes. no. yes. what? making change is not reliant on changing the money system one tenth as much as it is on changing the informational ecology. Going to a gold standard as an idea is a proof of ignorance, not a solution. Really the end game is we evolve out of money. To do that we evolve first new currencies and new economic strategies. this leads to economic singularity in about 50 years. If everyone is a millionaire how much you get depends on exactly the material valuation of that money. Which is to say that by the time money becomes obsolete everyone will live like the current millionaire. Tangible items to other tangible items? the real economy is about ideas, change the ideas and everything changes. the problem with the tangible economy is it does not change; its a static reality. you can't make a meaningful gold standard with only enough gold to represent on millionth of the economy. You can make a purely imaginal money system work; but it has to be subject to moral and ethical laws. This is about pinning down those moral and ethical laws and implementing them in new currencies; not trying to imagine a control freak impossible non solution because of the simplicity with which you go about thinking over the problem.

once again. there has never been a socialist or capitalist economy. in all instances such nations were oligarchies. using a mask and a con scam and telling their dupes and pwns that they were something other than oligarchy. the big hump to get over is that the USA oligarchy and the Soviet oligarchy are in on this lie against the rest of us TOGETHER. Neither of them was ever anything other than an oligarchy. both claimed some other system in order to have US fight over the ideals of THAT system while they secretly shafted us all playing a completely different game.

http://occupywallst.org/forum/stop-playing-the-devils-games/

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10150343790359248&set=a.10150264906064248.348293.511989247&type=1&theater

[-] 1 points by applebag (13) 3 years ago

Well Apple does produce real products that add real value. (Yes they're made overseas but that's a whole other discussion). The smartphone market is actually a good example where capitalism works well. However with the oligarchic telecoms, not so well.

[-] 1 points by applebag (13) 3 years ago

I'm trying to clearly point out 'value'. These are well engineered products that actually do something. Things like 'financial engineering' (ex. hugely paid wall street quants). That's not value.

[-] 1 points by MikeInOhio (13) 3 years ago

Absolutely. I have never owned an Apple product since I always found them too expensive. But they sure as heck sell, and I give him a lot of credit for that.

[-] 1 points by taxbax (159) 3 years ago

As much as an innovator as he was, Steve Jobs exemplified everything that #OWS protests. Massive profits, manipulation of regulatory agencies, exploitation of patent law, all pale in comparison to the massive slave labor factories that pumped out iDevices at pennies on the dollar and inspired many said slaves to end their own lives.

[-] 1 points by jdog (146) 3 years ago

did you know that he was a democrat? http://www.newsmeat.com/billionaire_political_donations/Steve_Jobs.php typically rich democrats want socialism for everybody else and capitalism for themselves.

[-] 1 points by MikeInOhio (13) 3 years ago

Thanks, tax. Great argument!

[-] 1 points by BigDikdJew (61) from Stratford, CA 3 years ago

He was great because he sold people products they liked and kept all his political donations and corporate shenanigans under wrap by having happy employees(the ones not working in sweatshops and killing themselves) and customers who would rather look good for more money than be productive with less.

[-] 1 points by MikeInOhio (13) 3 years ago

I think you are correct. Yet, these protesters view him as a god.

[-] 1 points by anonymouse (154) 3 years ago

This attempt by protesting Trustafarians to justify the purchase of their pricey electronic fetish objects is PURE COMEDY GOLD. Thanks, MikeInOhio, for the much-needed levity.

[-] 1 points by MikeInOhio (13) 3 years ago

Rock on!

[-] 1 points by powertothepeople (1264) 3 years ago

I have no opinion on Steve Jobs' goodness or non-goodness. In fact, I believe all human beings are part good/part "bad" to greater or lesser degrees, so I am not gonna sit up here & judge Steve Jobs' soul now that he's passed. I have read that he wasn't big on charitable giving as opposed to someone like Bill Gates, but I really have no strong feelings about that.

Honestly I don't think producing a useful & revolutionary product is comparable to Wall St firms using financial sleight of hand to out and out cheat and gamble with investors money.

I don't own or use Apple products myself, either. Not so much because of expense but because I don't like how they are turning formerly open systems into proprietary ones. And yea, I guess it is value for the money too. I just bought an Android tablet for 250 instead of an IPAD for 600.

But many of the same criticisms you make about Apple can be made about all computer hardware. Very little of ANYTHING is made in USA anymore, so it is difficult for any of us to be complete purists and stick ONLY to USA made or fair trade type products.

I myself do what I can to buy American. In fact, one of the products I sell in my business I used to import from Europe but I have now found a US supplier - even the shipping cartons are union-made in the USA and that pleases me!

Which leads me to - why do you assume that everyone banding together with OWS is not employed?

And why do you assume everyone at OWS is using Apple products? If you look at the actual media team on the ground even all of them are not using Apple - you see some Macbooks and some non-apple products?

I'm not out of work.

I don't use Apple products.

I pay my bills every month with money I earn myself.

Some have made arguments that OWSers shouldn't be using technology anymore because we "hate capitalism" and I see a little of that here. First of all - do OWSers really "hate capitalism" or is that a straw man set up by the right so they can knock it & us down?

Secondly - the technology-driven world is the world we all live in and that's the one we function in. This movement has created its own media machine with the tools available to it. How is that wrong or hypocritical? Were we supposed to all become back-to-nature Luddites in 21 days in order to be taken seriously? If we did, there'd be some other complaint or accusation from those who would oppose us no matter what, I guarantee you that.

[-] 1 points by MikeInOhio (13) 3 years ago

Thank you, power, you make some excellent points. I should not have implied that all of these people are out of work because obviously they are not. And you make a good point about becoming Luddites.

Unfortunately, I do not subscribe to the idea of a "straw man" set up by the right. This seems to be the common theme in the many conversations I have with supporters. This straw man, or unseen dark force, always seems to be a product of left-wing demagogues. Why on earth would anyone on the right support this straw man? The usual argument is that the rich control the straw man, but most of the people on the right are not rich.

[-] 1 points by powertothepeople (1264) 3 years ago

I know many conservative, hard-working families and individuals. I would like to see us unite on points that we CAN agree on, that would help all working people and then take some action to get things accomplished.

But debating stuff we don't agree on is good too : ) I learn from others who can debate with respect.

I always considered myself leftist but I also believe in free enterprise, a strong work ethic and to a large degree, small government. I think local governments do many things better than the Federal government can. Look at No Child Left Behind? I think people on all parts of the spectrum can agree NCLB didn't and doesn't work. The only good thing the Fed Dept of Education does is Pell Grants (you might disagree, lol). However, I live in a state that also gives govt supported college aid, both need-based and merit-based. So if Pell disappeared today, my state's residents would still have college scholarships available.

I got off the Steve Jobs topic : ) hope you don't mind.

[-] 1 points by SamuelAdams (119) 3 years ago

He's the first, or the best liar ever. He speaks often of how he doesn't care about the money, that he does everything for his own benefit of bringing value into people's lives. In the 80's he was telling everybody about the internet and how it would be the biggest revolution since the telephone, and there wasn't even a word for internet at the time, he just described how it worked. He has made billions sure, and while he is the visionary for Apple he doesn't exactly run all the finances so the company does have it's evil corporate side. Overall though, Jobs was a good man who wanted us to always be moving forward as a species.

[-] 0 points by MikeInOhio (13) 3 years ago

Remember the Apple ads during the 80's- people marching in lockstep to buy products from IBM? It's funny how the left now marches in lockstep to buy Apple products.

[-] 1 points by SamuelAdams (119) 3 years ago

People being easily manipulated by advertising has nothing to do with Steve Jobs himself. I already addressed that when I said he was merely the visionary but the rest of the company still had evil corporate tendencies.

[-] 1 points by littleg (452) 3 years ago

It's a waste to have lots of money and not put it to good use. I understand it was Steve Jobs who didn't want company to do any charity. He was a passionate techie for sure, but a bit cold guy I guess. I don't blame him, because I know every human has some or other flaws and it's the most difficult task to overcome it. May his soul rest in peace.

[-] 1 points by MikeInOhio (13) 3 years ago

Thanks!

[-] 1 points by equazcion (688) from New York, NY 3 years ago

Since corporations control the tools everyone uses for everything, it's kind of unavoidable to utilize them in our movement. Smartphones provide the real-time info and video evidence the movement relies on.

Look at it another way: If we can turn our enemy's tools against them, I see that more as revolutionary than hypocrisy. We'd only be hurting ourselves by insisting that a protest need rob us of any modern convenience just because our enemy makes them.

As for how people can afford them? Realistically the people who would have a cell phone anyway as a necessity aren't hurt much by the additional charge for data. It's negligible and wouldn't let them buy all that much more gas and milk each month to make a difference in their lives. The ability to tweet from the street, send clips of crowds singing and baton beatings, is well worth it, I think.

[-] 1 points by MikeInOhio (13) 3 years ago

If that's how you want to look at it. I hear people lambasting Walmart, but they all seem to shop there.

I would do exactly the same thing (using iphones), but I'm just wondering how you justify the hypocrisy. You buy products from companies that supposedly exploit labor.

[-] 1 points by LOVEPEACE (199) 3 years ago

That's like blaming prisoners for eating at the prison cafeteria. Or army personnel for eating at the mess hall.

Walmart is not the problem. Lack of Peace and Freedom is.

[-] 1 points by MikeInOhio (13) 3 years ago

Peace and freedom are great, but you need to elaborate.

[-] 1 points by LOVEPEACE (199) 3 years ago

There is no elaboration needed. Everyone's problem is lack of Peace. The rigged system is enforced with violence. They have engineered a crash as a pre-text to world war III. The message is simply. Demand PEACE. Everything else will follow. Peace is Prosperity.

[-] 1 points by MikeInOhio (13) 3 years ago

We all want peace. And yes, I agree peace is prosperity. Unfortunately it is hard to reach a consensus.

[-] 1 points by LOVEPEACE (199) 3 years ago

Peace IS a consensus. SO let "them" know. I mean that is what we are doing right now. You and I agree that EVERYONE demands Peace right now. We just did it! Let's keep it up! PEACE NOW! END ALL WAR! Peace brother. The rest is gravy.

[-] 1 points by MikeInOhio (13) 3 years ago

I'm with you, we just need to convince he union thugs of the same thing.

There is no doubt hat peace means higher standards of living. I'm all for peace.

[-] 1 points by LOVEPEACE (199) 3 years ago

Just keep believing in it with full authority and courage. That will continue to inspire people to join in! Peace brother.

[-] 1 points by MikeInOhio (13) 3 years ago

I will, and I appreciate your kind words.

[-] 1 points by equazcion (688) from New York, NY 3 years ago

"I'm just wondering how you justify the hypocrisy"

I've explained how I justify it already. Here's some new words, if it helps:

If the goal of the movement is to succeed, and we have a better chance of doing that with corporate-produced products, what's the problem?

Yes, yes, the problem is hypocrisy. Is hypocrisy, in itself, a problem? If you can save third-world lives by taking away corporate rights to rape their countries, while using corporate products until the goal is reached, is that necessarily bad?

Think simpler: Ever driven someone to a hospital in an emergency? Hypocrite! Cars are made by corporations! Buses and taxis, too! Next time, walk. But you say walking wouldn't get the person to the hospital in time? Well, too bad: You must avoid looking like a hypocrite, no matter what.

Or is hypocrisy just a buzzword, a label? The underlying situation isn't as simple as "hypocrisy" or "not hypocrisy". You seem to have trouble absorbing the details once they get into areas more complex than that black-and-white assessment can accommodate. Things aren't quite as simple as you'd like to believe.

[-] 1 points by MikeInOhio (13) 3 years ago

I'm sorry. I thought I told you that I would do the same thing. I think I may have told someone else.

If I were a part of the movement I would buy he best communication device available. I just wouldn't advertise the fact that a large corporation, like Apple, seems to be the hardware of choice

Sure, hypocrisy is a buzzword. It makes it easier for me when I can call you names.

Come on, the corporate rape argument is getting old.

[-] 1 points by equazcion (688) from New York, NY 3 years ago

The corporate rape argument is true and therefore gets said alot. Sorry you're tired of hearing it. We'll try to say it quieter.

[-] 1 points by MikeInOhio (13) 3 years ago

I won't work with the 40% of Americans you need to win over. It doesn't matter what you or I think, you need the middle.

You simply don't have it.

[-] 1 points by equazcion (688) from New York, NY 3 years ago

I see we've leaned away from the original argument and are now predicting whether the movement will succeed. Okay.

Lots of people like to think they can predict whether something will succeed or fail prior, using statistics, some of which are baseless. Others choose to try, and often succeed regardless of such naysayers. Just as often, the former jumps on the bandwagon later on when they realize they were only making stuff up out of fear of failure.

To each their own.

[-] 1 points by MikeInOhio (13) 3 years ago

No, I said you need to convince the middle 40%, of which I am a part. Unfortunatley I don't think it will happen

[-] 1 points by equazcion (688) from New York, NY 3 years ago

See previous answer.

[-] 1 points by MikeInOhio (13) 3 years ago

See my previous answer. These New Yorkers are so truculent.

[-] 1 points by equazcion (688) from New York, NY 3 years ago

The movement isn't just in new york, so I guess everyone else is too.

You seem to be at least a little interested in being involved, or else you wouldn't be here. Unless you just enjoy putting down the efforts of others.

[-] 1 points by MikeInOhio (13) 3 years ago

You are listed as being from NY. It's a simply a joke.

I started this exercise 4 days ago and I haven't stopped. I care about our country and I hope this movement takes root. The hard questions are gonna come, so I'm trying to present them.

[-] 1 points by equazcion (688) from New York, NY 3 years ago

"You simply don't have it."

Seems like plain negativity to me rather than playing devil's advocate or providing constructive criticism. If you're trying to help, you're not. There are plenty of people who don't believe in the movement who are already asking the hard questions. There's no slack for you to pick up.

[-] 1 points by MikeInOhio (13) 3 years ago

Look, nobody is happy with the current situation. I'm not being an ahole just for the sake of it. I have better things to do, quite frankly. If this movement is going to be successful you need to expand your horizons and accept the fact that the utopian nonsense is simply nonsense.

[-] 1 points by equazcion (688) from New York, NY 3 years ago

If you have better things to do and are not being an asshole just for the sake of it, I'm not sure why exactly you're here. If you think the movement is doomed to failure, go do your better things and let us fail in peace. Thanks for stopping by.

[-] 1 points by MikeInOhio (13) 3 years ago

You are welcome. I am not leaving.

Why can't you respond to what I said?

[-] 1 points by equazcion (688) from New York, NY 3 years ago

You asked about the hypocrisy, and I responded. You switched to predicting failure. I responded to that.

Ask a new question and I'll respond. You can also respond to my question, at your convenience.

[-] 1 points by MikeInOhio (13) 3 years ago

I am sorry I annoy you so much, but I'm not going to go away. What, specifically, bothers you so much?

[-] 1 points by equazcion (688) from New York, NY 3 years ago

If someone walked into a place where you were trying to plan something and started shouting that it won't work and you should just give up now, you might be peeved.

However, I'm not annoyed. If I were, I would've stopped responding on "don't feed the trolls" grounds.

Still avoiding the question I see.

[-] 1 points by MikeInOhio (13) 3 years ago

And I appreciate that. At least you are responding. Hasn't any of this resonated, though? I'm trying to make the movement better, not tear it down.

[-] 1 points by equazcion (688) from New York, NY 3 years ago

You're not making it better. You're making purely negative comments. You seem to not understand the difference between constructive and non-constructive criticism.

[-] 1 points by MikeInOhio (13) 3 years ago

OK, I'll see you in the morning.

[-] 0 points by MikeInOhio (13) 3 years ago

Well sure, as long as it suits your purposes it is OK. How many of those phones and tablets are made in the US. How many of the component parts are from the US. I'll answer both questions- very few. I hate to use the word hypocrisy, but you are supporting a large multinational company that many of you purport to despise.

[-] 1 points by equazcion (688) from New York, NY 3 years ago

You're repeating a sentiment I already responded to, so I won't repeat my answer. See above. I'll only add that I'm agreeing with you, but there are many ways to look at the use of these tools in a revolt other than focusing on the negative. Avoiding their use isn't necessarily a good thing.

As someone else said below, I choose not to demonize people who don't protest as "purely" as you might prefer. There will always be someone on a higher horse than you. Maybe the clothes and shoes you wear or the can opener you use were made in a similar foreign corporate sweatshop. Someone else probably has some reason to call you a hypocrite.

Try providing support rather than condemnation and judgment.

[-] 0 points by raines (699) 2 years ago

He was a genius.

[-] 0 points by Joeschmoe1000 (270) 2 years ago

Let's only demonize those corporations, and WTF, why not the LLCs too, which manufacture mundane products and/or provide mundane services which we either take for granted, or don't really understand!

Ready? Go!

[-] 0 points by MikeInOhio (13) 2 years ago

What?!

[-] 0 points by Shazam (54) 3 years ago

Steve Jobs was - to all public knowledge - EXCEPTIONAL. That is why he gets applauded, not because he is just one more dirt bag CEO which we have plenty of. You don't get to be a hero for nothin, he earned his reputation, don't try and piggy back the rest of corporate America on his personal accomplishments and integrity.

[-] 1 points by MikeInOhio (13) 3 years ago

Thank you, Shezam. At least someone agrees with that premise.

[-] 0 points by TerryRex (5) 3 years ago

Jobs also outsourced tons of work to China.

btw, OP, if you spend less disposable income on drugs, you may be able to afford Apple products.

[-] 1 points by MikeInOhio (13) 3 years ago

Excellent point! I really do need to work on my drug addiction. I'm sorry, I misspoke. I have an addiction to work, not a drug addiction.