Forum Post: This movement is OVER if this continues !
Posted 12 years ago on Oct. 28, 2011, 3:06 p.m. EST by Rico
(3027)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
We cannot continue to represent ourselves as "the 99%" if we are banning the homeless from eating at our kitchens. We might be the 98%, but not the 99%.
This story has hit the mainstream at http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/manhattan/zuccotti_hell_kitchen_i5biNyYYhpa8MSYIL9xSDL , and it will do us irreparable harm if it spreads further.
The donations made to OWS represent UNEARNED income, yet even when spending the money of OTHERS, we cannot help the needy ?
the system is trying to kill the movement, by sending the homeless-the ones that the !% have created- into our movement.if we tell the homeless (thou the media) that they are welcome to join our movement - and will be fed-the growth of our movement will be massive.
so i vote that we feed the homeless-but only within our demonstration-
now has font envy
test test
how did you make that text BIG AND BOLD?!?!?!
woohoo, use pound sign before and after post. Just figuered it out. woohoo
SWEET
look what the asteriks does
Please google "Markdown syntax". They recently disabled links though.
cheers.
we have every right to limit our output and don't owe the homeless anything.
if we have more than we can use its fine to share. but we are not obliged to share, and this wedge issue is just that. nothing to see here but nothing puffed into something to make us look bad.
I make sure to pass out the extras after GA to the homeless where appropriate. But we aren't a soup kitchen and we could not bear the load of the homeless population- even if we wanted to.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OPR3GlpQQJA
I have been active here since the very beginning, and since the very beginning I have been trying to make some core points. These points clearly have not been digested or fully understood by the mob, and so I'm going to try to make a further attempt here again.
For these reasons, I beg of you to please immediately join me on the wiki. We need to have all of these details and all of these ideas put together in an organized fashion, rather than posted in a long scrawl which will never be read.
http://occupythiswiki.org/wiki/THE_99%25_POLITICAL_PARTY
http://occupythiswiki.org/wiki/Main_Page
http://www.followthemoney.org/?gclid=CMbY87bB-qsCFUPt7Qod9HE8mQ
http://maplight.org/us-congress/guide/data/money?9gtype=search&9gkw=list%20of%20campaign%20donations&9gad=6213192521.1&9gag=1786513361&gclid=CP61oYbB-qsCFQFZ7AodcTF0jw
http://www.opensecrets.org/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/our-new-wiki/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/non-violence-evolution-by-paradigm-shift/
OWS engages in trickle down economics.
exactly. we give as we can at our own discretion.
Tsk. Shouldn't it be, "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need?"
fine axiom, lets make sure to keep it organized and labeled in its set on the wiki.
a more exacting expression is; each give according to their surplus, and take according only to their need. (not want.)
Everyone knows damned well that the food is for those either living down there, or visiting for many hours who are putting in work and making this happen. If you are down there for an hour you know that food is not really for you.
Now, how you handle selfish people is a recurring question.
Totally non-violent advocates might say you let everyone who takes food take it. This is a seperate discussion, but it's obvious that if you are not legitimately making sacrifices to put in work down there, you should not take anything.
PS I am not saying all homeless people are selfish. I am saying that if you go down there, homeless or not, just to take--you are selfish and gross.
Right. The other folks "shouldn't" do what they're doing.... but they are. That's one of the reasons societies have had to make "laws;" if everyone did what they "should" do, we wouldn't need them. Neither would we need this very movement ! Unfortunately, people DO behave in ways they should not.
Frankly, I think EVERYONE knows there are some "professional homeless," and I couldn't care less whether they get a free meal. What I am CONCERNED about is the IMAGE of this movement. OWS NOT feeding the homeless creates the SAME SITUATION and CONSEQUENCES as when America discovers an Anti-Immigration Republican actually HIRED illegal immigrants to clean his house.
When we refuse to feed the homeless, we look bad, and that HURTS our case. When we start accumulating a bunch of money, we look like capitalists, and THAT hurts our case (what exactly do we NEED money for? We're all volunteers, and people will soon start asking questions about WHO controls that money, HOW are they spending it, and what ACCOUNTING practices are being followed).
We are a movement of the PEOPLE. We are VOLUNTEERS. Feed the freakin' homeless and give any EXCESS money to charity. Anything else is political SUICIDE !
That's not right...I think there are a few people in the OWS that are just going crazy and making everyone look bad. :(
It doesn't matter. You of all people should know the importance of "image" and we're ruining ours. Frankly, we ARE capitalists. We are turning away the needy AND we're amassing large sums of money. Who GETS all that money, and who's accounting for it? Do you know?
In MY opinion, we should donate every penny of our contributions to homeless shelters, etc. Every additional cent we accumulate looks like we're turning into a bunch of capitalists and raises uncomfortable questions about the control of that money.
Keep this movement clean and give the money away.
I do agree that, if this is the case, and not an exaggeration, OWS should move on it and shore up their ranks. We are all about the 99%.
It just sounds like the blame is misplaced from the kitchen if this story is to be believed. If they are indeed working 18 hours days, it most definitely sounds more like a staffing problem, and the homeless shouldn't be blamed for over-running the kitchen. The kitchen needs to adapt to help the homeless, there's no doubt that it is the right thing to do.
Some squabbling will always occur within the ranks, it's normal and expected, but we can always rely on each to call it straight and consider carefully the actions we undertake.
Right on Rico on this thread. We need this cleared up. .... : )
I wonder how they dealt with this problem in tahrir square
I agree we should keep the movement clean. I am always for donating money homeless shelters. Honestly, I think that giving our money to other charities or setting up new charities to support those that are struggling - the 99%, is the best way to go.
I honestly don't believe that anything is going to happen from peaceful protests since nothing has been done about it (worldwide) for an entire month.
Hey, don't get down!
You've convinced ME to change my positions, albeit not to an extremist position, and I KNOW there are others like me. What you are doing is GOOD for America, just like the Tea Party was/is.
Citizens of all stripes, liberal and conservative, are ENGAGING, and that's what Democracy is SUPPOSED to be all about ! Per my post at http://occupywallst.org/forum/one-percenter-ready-to-join-if/ , I wish there was a way to get the nut-jobs under control, but at least people are ENGAGING.
Keep up the good work !
Ask for an accounting of all the money donated. No one will provide one.
well we dont ban the homeless from eating at our kitchens, but they must bring their own food : )
FEED THE HOMELESS either end of the loaf of bread.
Work in the kitchen for a couple of days. You have people who are not involved in the demonstrations coming into the park, getting three plates of food, before scoring some drugs and harassing those who are there for the revolution. These same people become belligerent with the volunteers serving the food when they receive some salad and a bagel instead of meat because that's all we have.
At the same time you have people who work all day every day and sleeping very little going completely hungry because they don't have access to the food. That's not fair. It is an obvious problem. We're trying to find a way to fairly distribute the food without anyone going hungry. You can actually survive on very little. I'm on hunger strike right now to prove this.
Obviously, this article has been spun against us. There is factual reporting, but there is an angle to it.
I would like to know what hard work people are doing down at Zaccotti Park. I was able to get down there the Monday after the Brooklyn Bridge arrests, but not since. What types jobs have been assigned, etc.??
The homeless/addicts/mental people should be highlighted as part of the problem...for the most part, they're on the street because all funds to help these people has been cut
ON to a bigger issue...I really hope OWS can move toward a concise focus directed at the root of so many 99%'s grievances - money in politics. I'm advocating the single demand of prohibiting private spending on public campaigns. I think this issue will have the most wide reaching impact, gain the broadest support, and will allow the 99% to participate meaningfully as both candidates and voters. Right now I can only think of two ways to get there www.lobbydemocracy.com and www.getmoneyout.com or join the discussion at //docs.google.com/document/d/14MNou3pijCZ6WeRCinuOmwo75Ul20-fZrlraL7aCzUE/edit?hl=en_US&pli=1
...you are aware that the Post is not generally the best source for news, especially on things they don't agree with, right?
If this is really going on, for those of you who think OWS should be feeding the homeless, then volunteer in the kitchen. I remember hearing an NPR piece where an enlisted man said the first job of any Navy crewman on a boat is laundry duty so they don't take anything for granted. If you're living down there, you should have to be on either cleanup or kitchen duty part of the week.
Of course, I'm NOT living down there and have absolutely no right telling you how to run the place. This is just constructive criticism. I am considering coming down and volunteering in the kitchens though. What you guys have done with the place in the last few weeks is amazing.
I'm not saying the Post is the best source of news OR that it's fully "mainstream." I'm saying it's mainstream ENOUGH that this story will spread. It's ALSO all over the Huffington Post, and news reported there DOES tend to spread.
Really? The "Post is a right-wing rag" is your only take-away from my reply? Not saying to ignore them, just saying to consider the source is all. And have some suggestions on how to mediate. Guess I should have included a smiley-face. :)
;o) Sorry.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/28/occupy-wall-street-bans-h_n_1044548.html?ir=Food
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/christianpiatt/2011/10/an-ironic-problem-for-occupy-wall-street/
Logical fallacy: Ad hominem.
There Is a War Going On For Your Mind
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tP5yA3RwzOk
YOU are protesting that the moneyed have all the power while you also gripe that you can not have your special gourmet meals! That actually turns my stomach. What is wrong with YOU! You are protesting that you are not one of THEM. This cause should be lost. Go home and cleanse your self of your hyprocracy.
In my opinion: Though I agree that every effort should be made to feed the homeless, at OWS or at any other location, but you can't say that the NYPost is "mainstream". Don't fall for the bullshit coming out of Rupert Murdoch owned news outlets. It has no purpose other than to divide and weaken the movement.
The homeless are being fed, but like the recent controversy with the drummers, they need to realize that OWS is not a free ride. OWS cannot be all things to all people. It is not a place for people to do whatever they feel with no constraints, or to take without giving back. OWS has a specific purpose - fighting to take power from the 1% and put it back in the hands of all the people. OWS has to aim towards that goal, and cannot let other issues, no matter how vital and worthy, get in the way of this goal.
OWS has been extraordinarily generous in it's outreach, and has fed all comers and should continue to do so. But people must be informed that though they can get a meal at OWS, there are many places in the city whose specific purpose and focus is to feed the hungry, and if they aren't willing to work specifically towards the purpose which OWS is geared, they should consider going to another organization. Some will understand this and some will not. That is okay - no one will be denied food. But the point must be to honestly explain to people the purpose of OWS and by doing so not to get distracted by other causes, no matter how worthy.
NY Post is mainstream ENOUGH that it will catch on in the major outlets. It's also all over the Huffington Post which is widely read.
I resonate with your position regarding feeding the people showing up wanting something for nothing, but honestly, that's EXACTLY how much of America views US !
I thought maybe we could go ahead and CHARGE for meals, but then we'll end up looking like capitalists. We'd also end up NOT spending the money we're receiving by donation, and us piling up a bunch of cash is going to look VERY bad.
Arrrgggghhhh. It's a sticky one.
you mention wanting something for nothing.. isn't that what OWS is all about? you want the rich folks who work their ass off for their money to give it to folks who might not want to work at all.
I know that's what a lot of outsiders THINK, but you're wrong. See my post at http://occupywallst.org/forum/one-percenter-ready-to-join-if/ and my proposal at http://occupywallst.org/forum/we-the-people-in-order-to-a-proposal/
the cooks felt “overworked and underappreciated.” so they pitched a hissy fit. Viva La Revolucion!
the cooks are the most important part of the movement- an army moves on its stomach-Napoléon Bonaparte
This saying means that an army will go where it can be fed. If an army has no food, they will grow weak, when they are weak they march slow and are sluggish in a fight.
I guess they know how taxpayers feel.
Rico is a Troll.
I most certainly AM NOT. I started out with a very negative opinion of this movement, but I changed my stance after many discussions with the FEW informed people here.
See my post at http://occupywallst.org/forum/one-percenter-ready-to-join-if/ and my proposal at http://occupywallst.org/forum/we-the-people-in-order-to-a-proposal/
In addition to having had my opinion changed regarding our political system, I have ALSO been converted from my position as a flat taxer to wanting a 4 tier tax system... zero taxes for the bottom 30%, bump up for the 30-60% class, another bump at 60-75%, and a final bump for the top 25% with ALL deductions, credits, loopholes, etc closed. Other than the bottom 30%, I don't know what RATES we should charge each segment, but NO step should be so large as to disincentivise people from moving up. I call this "A Ladder to Prosperity." I personally would fall in that top bracket, but people here have convinced me that I SHOULD pay more.
I'm one of the FEW who you have converted. Don't make me your enemy.
So why do you keep posting this NY Post story?? That is a terrible right wing extremist rag,. with little resemblance to a news organisation. Do you have links to the meeting minuets where this issue came up,. or do you just believe the NY Post "report". (propaganda in my mind)
I do agree with you we need a progressive tax system,. remove all the tax breaks and loopholes,. (these seem to come about when politicians are campaigning and make promises,. and is a shady practice that.) my progression goes something like this;
first 20K zero tax. next 20 -100K 10% next 100k -250k 25% next 250k - 1 million 45% over 1 million 90%
Now,. I like your way of expressing the progression in percent of income distribution,. I would have to look into what those distributions look like,. but my main point it that you hit a wall at a reasonable top level income. I used to support a maximum income above which 100% tax would apply,. however I too have changed and think now that even at 90% there is still an incentive,. the thing for me is how much do people need or want? I am sure MOST people would be very happy with this and in a functioning democracy it would be straight forward to pass this,. as the vast majority of folks would make out well. No one needs to make more than a million a year,. note this would apply to capital gains as well!
I only posted the NY Post story once, and I wasn't suggesting it's a GOOD source. Rather, I was pointing out that they are "mainstream" ENOUGH, that we can soon expect the story to spread. You MUST understand the importance of image.
I used percentages in my rough sketch of a tax plan simply because I wanted to ALWAYS exempt the bottom 30% no MATTER what they make. I was trying to make a "Ladder to Prosperity" that would not have to change as incomes move due to inflation, etc. As for the rates, I remain silent (as noted) except to say they should not create situations where people climbing the ladder actually have LESS money as they pass from one rung up to the next.
My number one desire... I WANT MY GOVERNMENT BACK ! Once we have an UNCORRUPTED Democracy, we can use it to settle our OTHER differences the way we were SUPPOSED to be able to do when this Nation was founded. If we INSIST on fighting over those differences NOW, we become FACTIONS with NO POWER .... JUST the way the STATUS QUO wants.
The current tax code is nothing BUT a bunch of special interests, and people should NOT have to hire an accountant just to make sure they didn't "miss anything." Thus, I think TAX REFORM is one of the first things we might tackle AFTER we take our Government back!
Sorry Rico, I may have misjudged you. (saw that story posted more than once, and assumed.) I totally agree that the tax code is silly at best. (antidote; I was working in a crap warehouse job and the kids working with me actually thought the only way to do your taxes was to pay one of those tax "accounting" companies to do it for them,. the really had no idea they could just fill it out themselves! That is how messed up it is,. those places screwed them out of 1/5 of their return) So yeah it should be dead simple,.
Yep. The SPECIAL INTERESTS have made a mess of EVERYTHING from taxes to regulation to education to, well, EVERYTHING. We need to TAKE BACK OUR GOVERNMENT. I'm CONFIDENT we can work out solutions to everything else LATER !
The leaders are too busy in their Penthouse in NYC to care via the $500,000.00 they raised.
I'm sure, jackass.
Can you provide any accounting of these funds???? Useful Idiot? BTW...its a YES or NO question.
You tell a lie, and then ask someone to refute it. Some scam. I'll answer it when you can answer, yes or no, that you've stopped beating your wife.
I will try to type slower so maybe you can understand. Can you provide any accounting for the funds that were donated?
AWESOME!
FUCKIN A