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Forum Post: THIS MIGHT BE THE TRICK to the movement spinning into a virtuous cycle that can't be stopped

Posted 7 years ago on Nov. 22, 2012, 10:06 p.m. EST by therising (6643)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

I think many people around the country are in agreement that we should take action on income disparity, health care, global warming, fracking and other environmental reforms, reinstating Glass Steagall, overturning Citizen United, enacting campaign finance reform, reevoking the corporate personhood law, closing corporate tax loopholes, ending corporate welfare, raising taxes on upper incomes, addressing US job outsourcing etc. (Thanks Underdog for reminding me of the common list that many seem to gravitate towards).

The trick seems to be continually identifying ways to raise public consciousness so more join in whatever specific initiatives arise.

At the same time natural human weaknesses and also very intentional corporate forces will push back. And then the question is, which force will be stronger?

I'd like to think that there are ways that virtuous cycles large and small can begin and grow with a momentum that can't be stopped. It's intriguing to study strategies and tactics that will facilitate those virtuous cycles. Gene Sharp, Gandhi, Martin King, Jr. and many others have a lot to say about that and I think we'd be wise in the second big wave of Occupy to utilize even more of their tactics.

In the end, obviously, it's the heart of the message that's most important. I'm just personally fascinated by how we can spread that message exponentially.

Martin Luther King, Jr. said the following in his "Letter from the Birmingham Jail":

"Nonviolent direct action seeks to create such a crisis and foster such a tension that a community which has constantly refused to negotiate is forced to confront the issue. It seeks to so dramatize the issue that it can no longer be ignored. My citing the creation of tension as part of the work of the nonviolent-resister may sound rather shocking. But I must confess that I am not afraid of the word "tension." I have earnestly opposed violent tension, but there is a type of constructive, nonviolent tension which is necessary for growth. Just as Socrates felt that it was necessary to create a tension in the mind so that individuals could rise from the bondage of myths and half-truths to the unfettered realm of creative analysis and objective appraisal, we must we see the need for nonviolent gadflies to create the kind of tension in society that will help men rise from the dark depths of prejudice and racism to the majestic heights of understanding and brotherhood."

"The purpose of our direct-action program is to create a situation so crisis-packed that it will inevitably open the door to negotiation. I therefore concur with you in your call for negotiation."

Here's the entire "Letter from the Birmingham Jail": http://abacus.bates.edu/admin/offices/dos/mlk/letter.html . It's a treasure and is as timely as ever.

  • NOTE: Others have pointed out wisely that there is a progression to this:

FIRST we need to work on helping a larger percentage of Americans to realize the fundamental message that's explained well in this short, entertaining and accessible video about the corporate hijacking of our democracy.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5kHACjrdEY&feature=youtube_gdata_player .

And THEN, once that fundamental truth of the corporate takeover of our republic has penetrated the public consciousness in countless ways from countless sources, his newly awakened populace will be hopping' mad and ready for action. Then we'll be in a better position to do thing like what's described in this post: http://www.occupywallst.org/forum/you-may-have-seen-this-list-of-8-practical-goals-b/



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[-] 2 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 7 years ago

Both Ghandi and King didn't try to tackle all of their country's problems at one time. That is Occupy's great mistake.

Attempting to correct symptoms won't solve our problems. We should concentrate our focus on the interrelated root cause of all of our problems. Our complete lack of political and economic power. Without our hands on the steering wheel of Democracy, any direction we attempt to steer will be meaningless.

The first step is education. The people must understand that their hands aren't on the steering wheel, big business and big government is driving. Real Democracy does not exist, it's a charade. Occupy understands this, but 98% of the people don't. We need at least 10% of the population with us or we're just spinning our wheels.

MLK didn't have to convince blacks that they were being oppressed. We have an even tougher battle. We need to convince people that they are being oppressed first, both economically and politically, before they will join with us.

[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 7 years ago

Not to change the subject, but I'm so pleased with the results of yesterday. 1,000 actions in Walmart stores in 46 states. That is HUGE!!! Especially in a down economy. That is just amazing. Imagine how the Walton's and upper management feel waking up today...all their downplaying wearing off and waking up to the reality that this is their new normal and they (who employ 1% of Americans are going to be pushed relentlessly to provide a living wage, fair benefits etc. I'm sure they already miss the old days of unchecked power. But those days are over.

Obviously the implications of this go far beyond just Walmart and their workers and also well beyond the issue of unionization. This is about the 99% realizing their collective power and feelings,ore and more emboldened to speak up.

[-] 1 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 7 years ago

It'll be interesting to see how this progresses. Walmart is the corporate giant with a history of strike breaking. I read they even closed a store rather than submit to union demands.

From Walmart's perspective, if they raise wages just $1 an hour for all 1.5 million workers, it will cost them over $2 billion a year. So they have a powerful incentive to fight, and it will likely get ugly.

[-] 2 points by therising (6643) 7 years ago

Taxpayers should be fighting back since Walmart essentially receives about a billion dollars a year in subsidy due to the fact that their wages and benefits are so low that 80% of their workforce is on some kind of public assistance. Pretty significant considering that Walmart apparently employees nearly 1 out of every 100 people in the U.S.

I would love to see "Our Walmart" etc. win the PR battle on this thing over time with the American public. I think that's as important as what happens in the back rooms.

[-] 1 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 7 years ago

Quite true. Even conservatives should support higher wages. Why have an efficient government dolling out food stamps when the employers can do it more efficiently and without the usual theft and fraud.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 7 years ago

Because employers would like the government make up the difference from some source other then themselves.

[-] 1 points by toobighasfailed (117) 7 years ago

"Both Gandhi and King didn't try to tackle all of their country's problems at one time."

Exactly right. This is why I'm so concerned to see that Occupy Wall Street has drifted from highlighting the problems on Wall Street. If OWS doesn't focus on Wall Street, who will?

There are serious reforms needed still. President Obama will likely soon appoint a Wall-Street-first person to the SEC and the treasury (Mary Miller and Jack Lew, respectively), and OWS might unfortunately largely remain silent about it.

Wall Street loves any distractions they can get. That's how they keep the status quo. There's enough wrong on Wall Street that we could make this one problem the single focus and have enough to do for years.

[-] 3 points by therising (6643) 7 years ago

I think there will always be different focus by different groups of people within the movement. I'd personally like to see the focus on these 8 http://www.occupywallst.org/forum/you-may-have-seen-this-list-of-8-practical-goals-b/ because they might help stop the bleeding long enough to help us have the time and space to focus on even more fundamental and important issues.

In the end, I think the solution to the "focus" issue you're referring to (one that I've wrestled with as well) is to concentrate on growing the numbers rather than changing the focus of existing core supporters. If you think about it, you know that are dozens, hundreds or thousands of people who identify with OWS who share your interest in any number of issues. The thing you and I lament, I think, is that we'd like to have 10 times the amount, 100 times the amount of pushing on our particular items of interest.

I don't think we'll achieve that by trying to sway more people in the existing group to refocus. Instead, we just need to help bring more people to our particular part of the reservation from OUTSIDE the existing group of OWS supporters. In some sense, there IS no "they" in "they ought to focus Occupy on x or y". We are they.

[-] 4 points by toobighasfailed (117) 7 years ago

I love your list of 8 things, therising, because the emphasis is on Wall Street reform (you obviously see why it still matters!), but it also includes a bit about inequality in general. You nailed it.

I agree that it would be great to grow the number of people who identify with OWS and also share my interests. The problem is that those same people might be scared off by the other OWS identifiers (climate change, pro-labor unions, anti-austerity), and so they therefore might say that they can't be involved with OWS because to them it means accepting all this other stuff (stuff which is good in my mind, but not about Wall Street). The more identifiers beyond a certain threshold that people have to accept to be part of a group, the fewer people will join the group. I'd say your 8 points is about right.

I'd love to see the US achieve any one of those 8 things from your list. How can I help? I've been building this website to carry on the Move Your Money project: http://SwitchYourBank.org

I've read everything on this reading list: http://SwitchYourBank.org/reading_list

The fact that I agree completely with your 8 points means that I respect your positions on these issues. What else could I do to help you promote them?

[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 7 years ago

2 questions:

Are you getting the impression that after a lull, the movement / the great idea / consciousness about the corporate takeover of our democracy is picking up steam again?

Also, have you ever seen the film Manufacturing Consent? It speaks directly to one of the key aspects of the growth of the movement.

[-] 2 points by shadz66 (19985) 7 years ago

Re. 'Manufacturing Consent' - good point, good comment, good thread and forum-post. Ergo :

Essential Viewing for all OWS sympathisers, supporters and fellow travellers.

fiat lux ...

[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 7 years ago

Unfortunately wouldn't load for some reason.

[-] 2 points by shadz66 (19985) 7 years ago

There's so much Consent being Manufactured already that Chomsky's documentary is now 'must see' viewing for OWS and beyond. The link works but please try again and revert if situation same and I'll sort out new link. Onwards & Upwards.

per ardua astra ...

[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 7 years ago

Thanks. Will try it again this evening.

[-] 1 points by toobighasfailed (117) 7 years ago

I hope the movement picks up steam again. I think part of the lull may have been because people didn't want to draw the attention away from getting Obama elected. But now that he's won, I think it's time to pressure him (and all of Congress) to be serious about Wall Street reform.

I haven't seen the film, but I will check it out (thanks, shadz66, for the link below)!

[-] 2 points by therising (6643) 7 years ago

Cool. I agree. Hopefully more and more people will join the push for Wall St. reform.

[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 7 years ago

I agree with your 10% # above and it's interesting to note that in October of 2011 (before the heaviest of the heavy duty ammo came out of the anti-Occupy propaganda machine) Occupy movement had support of 40% - 50% of Americans according to numerous mainstream polls. They may not have understood everything but the fact that they connected with the message in some way is pretty damn huge. Shows it's possible. Also, see this post when you have time about other positive notes: http://occupywallst.org/forum/the-transformation-is-underway-a-message-to-everyo/

[-] 1 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 7 years ago

The 40%-50% of Americans who supported us don't really know or understand the nuts and bolts reasons for the current economic and political injustice. They perceive that things aren't right, but continue to vote overwhelmingly for the status quo. Example, 98.5% voted for Obama and Romney in 2012. The same percentage as in 2008. They say "we support you" with their lips, but in reality say "we support the safety of a familiar tyranny" instead of the "risk of an unknown freedom" with their votes.

I think our present message is completely impotent. Without a clear and direct message, backed by convincing and irrefutable facts that the average person can relate to, it's just hot air that will be blown away by the hotter and stronger air of the corporate voice.

We should focus on economic injustice first and second on political injustice. While many people might not bother to act on politics, they will bother to act about their money.

[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 7 years ago

Good point. And when you put it that way, it actually seems relatively obvious and "easy" to have a clear and direct message backed by convincing and irrefutable facts that the average person can relate to. I'm not trying to be cavalier here. And am certainly not suggesting I'm qualified to do so, but the information is out there. It just needs to be gathered, synthesized, simplified and put together into something that is approachable. It also needs to be set up so it can be easily shared. There need to be some key phrases that just have a common sense sharp zing to them.... Stuff that would cause some people to say, "Well, hell, who the hell can argue with that.". The video here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5kHACjrdEY&feature=youtube_gdata_player is at least one example of some of the media but obviously it needs to take all different forms, being of varying lengths and speak to people of all backgrounds in a clear and concise way.

[-] 0 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 7 years ago

I think a video would be a great way to get a clearly defined message out. The facts and figures are fairly easy to come up with. Do any members here have the skills and software to turn these facts into a hard hitting and graphically intense video?

[-] -2 points by newShep (-179) 7 years ago

Here is one video you can use for showing the true colors of ows, youtube is full of many more, just like this. Enjoy http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7K_PHuFzFM

[-] 0 points by VQkag2 (16478) 7 years ago

Yeah Obama bad. He is the only problem we have. It's all his fault!


Forget the Pres. Get in the street and force change. Pressure ALL pols. If you only criticize one politician you show partisanship.

[-] 0 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 7 years ago

You really have a blind spot in that left eye. Have you considered removing that lens of bias that covers it?

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 7 years ago

That IS funny. I am literally blind in my right eye. Aaaaah ha ha ha.

Anyway. Whats the problem? You criticize one politician. I tell you it's more than that, Furthermore I submit that if you limit your criticism to one politician you are simply being partisan.

What's the problem.? I criticize the Pres. He has made profound mistakes. He must be pushed left. But I also know that the progressive agenda is threatened mainly by the right wing extremists.

You leave them out of you criticism, and your not really attacking the problem.

[-] 0 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 7 years ago

From my statement above "Example, 98.5% voted for Obama and Romney in 2012" you drew the conclusion that I was blaming only Obama. Just more proof of complete political bias.

[-] 0 points by VQkag2 (16478) 7 years ago

Is that your entire statement? NO! And you might have noticed that Romney did not get elected so your criticism was of only one Politician.

And you stayed silent on the pols who pose the greatest threat to our progressive agenda.

[-] -3 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 7 years ago

That takes most people admitting they were wrong, that they put their faith in something that was a lie. They cant admit it. Its personal to them. And the longer they have been fooled, the deeper in their heels go.

Its going to take the 20-30 year old generation getting into power eventually, because as Occupy has showed, there are all sort of options and ideas that are shut out of this bullshit system.

[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 7 years ago

And as they enter power, we need to support them with all of our might .... They'll need it. Because corporations are stacking the deck against human beings as we speak. I know that sounds odd when stated that way -- "after all," someone might say, it's people who run and own these corporations.". The problem of course is that they don't act in best interest of human beings while administrating or owning. They act in the best interest of the corporation. The award winning documentary The Corporation is excellent and makes this clear. And this short video really shows how that's impacting our republic: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5kHACjrdEY&feature=youtube_gdata_player

[-] -1 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 7 years ago

Exactly What you're referring to is called "cognitive dissonance". It will be a battle to convince the people that their cherished belief, Democracy, doesn't really exist in America. Or even a simple economic fact like 50% of Americans earn less than $27,000 a year. A lady came up to our protest and refused to believe it, even when provided with a link to the social security website.



[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 7 years ago

All great points. I think your perspective is spot on. There is a progression to this. First we need to work on a larger percentage of Americans to realize the message in this short video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5kHACjrdEY&feature=youtube_gdata_player . And once that fundamental truth of the corporate takeover of our republic has penetrated the public consciousness, his newly awakened populace will be hopping' mad and ready for action. Then we'll be in a better position to do thing like what's described in this post: http://www.occupywallst.org/forum/you-may-have-seen-this-list-of-8-practical-goals-b/

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 7 years ago

Solid logical approach. I agree. Too many people are complacent and unaware of corp hegemony.. We must convince more people of the reality that the PTB have taken our govt.

I believe OWS has had great success. And will continue to. The profound changes we are fighting for will require that more people become aware, and educating/convincing them of corp control is critical.

[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 7 years ago

I completely agree. Thanks very much for your comments. I look forward to discussing further. When you look at what happened in Egypt and when you consider the lightning speed of the rise of occupy,, you realize the serious potential iin this technological era for memes to spread and take hold. I'm sure there are tons of people way smarter than me who understand how this happens and how to fan the flames. I'd like to understand it better. PS - Walmart strike is a great opportunity for Americans to come at this from yet another angle. Perhaps there are thousands of angles and different people connect better with particular angles.

[-] 0 points by VQkag2 (16478) 7 years ago

There ARE many angles. All must be pursued. And the speed of OWS growth IS a testament to current tech influence, and I think also a testament of how acute the inequity for working class has progressed after 30 years.

For us, we must counter the anesthetized element of consumerism/entertainment if we are to convinced more Americans to speak out, stand up, & join the movement.

Most difficult. but we need the numbers.

[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 7 years ago

I think you're right on target. This has to be very strategic. What gives me a lot of hope is that even in a very down economy workers at Walmart are willing to put their jobs on the line to fight for fairness. 300 or 1000 people striking in 2012 means as much I think as if 30,000 or 300,000 went on strike during the Clinton years. This is a very big deal in these times.

And to your point, the other good news is that the mainstream media is covering it. See the CNN anchor going after Walmart spokesman at the link at this post: http://www.occupywallst.org/forum/cbs-news-story-on-walmart-strike-mainstream-media-/

I think Gene Sharp, King and Gandhi all have very specific info about how to help a story go viral. King and Gandhi were masters of this. People make them out to be holy and otherworldly but they were also very clever and put a lot of thought into making sure press was right where they needed to be at just the right time. Gandhi actually spoke very openly about this. Now we just need to translate what this means in the era of Twitter.

I'm not sure we have to choose between bypassing mainstream media and using it. I think we need to utilize both to capture the public imagination and break through all the noise of the consumerism/entertainment you reference. Neil Postman said a lot about this in "Amusing Ourselves to Death" which is shockingly now 20 years old :)

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 7 years ago

Agreed. And yes we MUST utilize MSM and alternative media. All avenues. We must illustrate the inequity as best as possible. And always challenge the extremists defending the status quo, and the new normal.

People have to see it is ok to challenge the low wage, high cost, high debt culture that serves the monied classes by squeezing the working class.

The working class will rise up if they see that some are successfully challenging these damaging realities. The Media will follow, and the mood will continue to turn left as OWS has begun.

The nations turns like an aircraft carrier. Slow & wide. It will take years of hard work in the streets, Slow & with setbacks. But the best we can do is continue & not despair.

[-] 0 points by VQkag2 (16478) 7 years ago

And the book is 28 years old! Holy shit!


[-] -1 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 7 years ago

Like the storyofstuff video, but I don't think America will get off the couch to support an amendment against CU. They will get off the couch to support higher wages if they understand it's in their and the country's best interest.

While I support some of the eight goals, they are still symptoms, not the cause of the disease of economic and political inequality. If the eight practical goals are not accepted, blocking the entrance to Congress would be an absolute disaster. Black bloc tactics have already harmed Occupy far more than any other method. The Koch brothers themselves would welcome this tactic with open arms.

[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 7 years ago

The way I look at the eight goals at http://www.occupywallst.org/forum/you-may-have-seen-this-list-of-8-practical-goals-b/ is that achieving one or more of them would help get the "foot off our collective neck" long enough to breathe. They certainly aren't the end all be all. But if you look at the aim of most of them, they prevent further erosion, kind of stop the bleeding as you would do for a patient in the emergency room. I absolutely agree that they don't address the deep down root problems at the core, but I think they buy us enough time an breathing room to do so.

[-] 1 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 7 years ago

All eight goals use legislative action. Exactly the power we don't have at the moment. Our loss of economic power has strengthened the wealthy both financially and politically.

Our greatest leverage is still our dollar, not our vote. Starve the beast financially will also weaken him politically.

[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 7 years ago

I would love to see that too, but seems like that takes the same number of people / amount of support as the 8 goals I referenced. My big question (in addition to discussing what to focus on and in what order) is, how do we move in the direction of Malcolm Gladwell's tipping point? How do we increase support to the point where our votes with the wallet / starving the beast (as you suggest) and the legislative items I listed are achievable?

[-] 2 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 7 years ago

Education, education, and education. We need people to first understand the why's of economic and political inequality, and second the how's to effectively break the grip of both.

Knowledge is the lever that the wealthy use to impoverish us, and knowledge will be the lever that we use to gain equality back.

ical contribution, it can't be arrested or silenced.

A specific company should be chosen to boycott. Walmart is at the top of the list of economic adversaries because of it's low pay and size. They are striking and boycotting as we speak. It will be a tough nut to crack though because people don't really understand the purpose of unions. The strikers need to inform the people walking past the picket lines exactly why it's in their best interest long term not to shop there.


[-] 0 points by Shule (2638) 7 years ago

Very good point. It is recognized by many; protest alone won't change the minds of those entrenched with power. One must create tension. One must apply a force of hand. This can be done, and often is done with guns, but for good reason most of us do not want to go there. However, there are other methods besides the actual use of weapons. One is the use of legal actions. That OWS organize a legal arm that takes adversaries to court? There are other ways. A good mode of thinking is described in Che Guevara's short book "Guerilla Warfare." One can apply what he describes to non-violent actions too.

I finish with two remarks paraphrased from Ghandi's writings:

A litmus test of whether an action is non-violent is if in the end all parties are satisfied with the outcome and are better off for it.

Never coward from a rightful cause. If non-violence does not work, then use violence.

[-] -1 points by billyx (72) 7 years ago

Fear and apathy seem to play a major part in persons hesitation or refusal to act. Of course there are those that think all is 100% well in the world...but I believe that % is daily reducing. There was something simple that Gandhi did in creating that tension...but also it was something so simple for others to do and benefited the participants, in making salt at the sea...I am sure they didn't all need or wanted to be aware of the impact it had on the suppression. In fact many that did it may have been doing so for selfish gain. I feel we can create methods and opportunities for people to engage that will similarly create this tension and in the meantime benefit personally those that engage. An example.....Occupy camps gave somewhere for people to be, maybe voice an opinion, maybe get some food,etc but for whatever the reason the mass of camps and people created that tension.

[-] 0 points by therising (6643) 7 years ago

I agree wholeheartedly billyx. That feeling of ownership, participation and engagement is essential. And you're right, we need to find ways to make that experience more and more accessible so people can feel the buzz of that direct involvement. I agree that the genius of the camps is that they brought people out of the isolation of sitting behind their computers and into the public sphere where they could engage face to face and become connected. This also has the added benefit of making the movement visible and "real" for the broader public which, in turn, helps get even more people engaged. And I think you're right about allowing for all sorts of motivations. Some might show up for food, comrade ride or just out of curiosity but a percentage of those will discover more and stay for bigger and more important reasons.

I also agree with jrhirsch above that there is a progression to this process. First we need to work on helping a larger percentage of Americans to realize the message in this short message. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5kHACjrdEY&feature=youtube_gdata_player . And once that fundamental truth of the corporate takeover of our republic has penetrated the public consciousness, his newly awakened populace will be hopping' mad and ready for action. Then we'll be in a better position to do thing like what's described in this post: http://www.occupywallst.org/forum/you-may-have-seen-this-list-of-8-practical-goals-b

[-] 1 points by Underdog (2971) from Clermont, FL 7 years ago

TR, when I type in "Occupy" into the search field of YouTube, I get a general collection of primarily protest videos. Is there any spot on YouTube that has a collection of videos designed to educate the public about the issues that are important to Occupy? It would be cool if Occupy had a video library of educational material all in one spot that the whole world could access. Then we could work on trying to make some of those videos go viral.

Is there anything like that that you are aware of? I'm not aware.

[-] 0 points by therising (6643) 7 years ago

That would be excellent. That would be a place where this kind of video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5kHACjrdEY&feature=youtube_gdata_player and many others could be housed. Probably the closest is at www.occupy.com and I'd vote for housing the special selection you mention on that site available from homepage menu. It's a very approachable website for the general public.

It would probably also make sense to have the same page of links set up on a more general sounding website that is topic specific and doesn't alienate people who might have a hang up about Occupy or whatever (mostly due to media bias and corporate propaganda demeaning and distorting Occupy).

I really think we need both.

[-] 1 points by Underdog (2971) from Clermont, FL 7 years ago

Just watched that video. Excellent! That's what I'm talking about. Have vids like that easily accessible all in one place for us to point our conversations with friends to, etc.

Is JART still the admin for this site? Whoever it is, it would be cool if they could add a "VIDEOS" section to the menu bar on this site that could link to important videos on YouTube and elsewhere. I don't think anything on YouTube has copyright concerns (most of the time), so what would be holding this idea back? I'd especially like to see "inside Job" and "The Corporation" made available to the whole world (I realize those productions might have copyright concerns). But all these "home grown" videos you see would be great to have available.