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Forum Post: This is The Choice Alaskans/Americans Have To Make - COPPER and GOLD or, SALMON and CLEAN WATER

Posted 8 years ago on July 26, 2012, 4:21 a.m. EST by Odin (583)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

Some of you know that I have been visiting family in Alaska for the past few weeks. While here in AK I originally decided not to post any threads during my time here, mostly because I wanted to devote my limited time to family. My kids wanted me to stay longer too, which I am sure some of you here find unbelievable (me too lol), due to the honest differences I have had with some of the posters here recently. However, I have changed my mind with this thread due to the importance of this issue, and also due to being here in AK while this controversy is brewing.

What is shaping up to be the biggest enviromental battle since oil was discovered on The North Slope in th '60s is the Pebble Mine debate. The proposed open-pit copper mine will be the 5th largest in the world, and the biggest gold mine in the world, and it will be be built by a consortium of international corporations under the name, "Pebble Partnership."

This is the problem in a 'nutshell.' Bristol Bay (near the mine) is the largest natural sockeye salmon fishery in the world. The proposed copper mine will be the fifth largest in the world, and it will also have the largest gold mine in the world. If completed, the pit will be approximately 4,000 feet deep, and 2.5 miles wide. It will produce 10 billion tons of waste, or 3,000 lbs. for every man, woman, and child on earth. This waste will be stored behind dams 740 feet high, or as tall as the Goden Gate Bridge. Check out the links for the rest of the story.

This is a short clip that is very informative. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-KB7TJYjSI

This 54 min. doc aired on Frontline a couple of days ago. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/alaska-gold/

This is what we can do to stop this project. http://www.savebristolbay.org/?gclid=CMWDtOX2trECFeUaQgodbiQAxw



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[-] 5 points by shoozTroll (17632) 8 years ago

I hate to tell you this Odin, but I believe the neolibe(R)tarians will win this one too, as there is much money to be made cornering more markets.


Like they give a shit.

Chesapeake Bay? Mostly crap now.

Great Lakes? The fisheries never truly rebounded. Now they are fracking around them more every day.

They are blowing off mountain tops in the east to get to the coal.

Oil sands? I think we all know what that looks like today.

Neolibe(R)tarains have always been about the money, plain and simple.

They win, we lose, and we pay either way.

[-] 2 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 8 years ago

those are the very jobs being promised

praise big business and get to work

[-] 3 points by shoozTroll (17632) 8 years ago

All hail the high and mighty WallStreet!!!!

They have nothing to do with anything, they just make lotsa money.

Just ask 'em.

[-] -1 points by Odin (583) 8 years ago

You have to remain optimistic shooz despite our monumental task. I realize that we are going up against an entrenched corrupt system that has a lot to lose if we are successful. Our very existence as a species is dependent on our victory as I know well the waterways that you have mentioned from the time i worked on the 'boats', and have read up on the terrible destruction to the earth that is happening in Alberta, West Virginia, and other places.

Much of what we are going through on a political level is reminiscent of the early 20th century coal mining towns, where corporations controlled almost every aspect of human life. The difference being the world has become a 'coal mining company town.' This will not be easy. I just pray (and I am not super religious) that this can be done with a very limited loss of human life, unlike in the early 20th century.

[-] 4 points by shoozTroll (17632) 8 years ago

One thing is certain Odin.

It will not happen by remaining "apolitical".

By remaining so, you allow the neolibe(R)tarians to proceed unabated.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 8 years ago

I cannot support the pro war of either party

[-] 2 points by shoozTroll (17632) 8 years ago

I will never dis you for your anti war position Matt, but this about Alaska, and ways to stop a strip mine.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 8 years ago


[-] -3 points by Odin (583) 8 years ago

Being political now, without he numbers we need will only get us inbedded with this corrupt system, and we will become ineffective. This movement has to remain defiant.

[-] 3 points by shoozTroll (17632) 8 years ago

Then if you have so little faith in the movement, I fear you really can say goodbye to those fisheries.

I hope they give the fishermen a bigger kick back than the oil corporations give.

I don't believe your fear will stop the movement, but it has already slowed it down and limited it's effectiveness.

What could have been done in thirty years, will now take closer to one hundred. That makes me sad.

[-] -3 points by Odin (583) 8 years ago

I have a lot of faith in this movement mostly because I know how detrimenally affected the young people will be if this ship is not righted, and I know their determination to see this through.

[-] 3 points by shoozTroll (17632) 8 years ago

Hmmm. Then you better get everyone over to port side as the ship is listing heavy to starboard....................:)

I hope it's not this ship.


Jokes aside. You must know by now that it's all politics.

That when you endeavor to affect a political system, you too become political.

You can't avoid it.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 8 years ago

government are those institutions that determines who owns what

[-] -3 points by Odin (583) 8 years ago

Gee I hope it's not that ship either...too many men on there for me. We also have to beware of our 'ship' going down by the bow from too many politicians sitting up there. (sorry couldn't help it) Yes OWS is political in that sense, but the difference is we are not part of the political system that brought us all here, to rail against it. You can't solve this problem by joining them as it is not only the parties that have been corrupted, but the political system itself. In the pessimistic comment that you made earlier, i can see that you realize, as I do, the immense struggle that we have taken on. It will not be easy, and it will not happen in the voting booth...not real change anyway.

[-] 2 points by shoozTroll (17632) 8 years ago

Then that fear will paralyze the movement.

My fear is that it will render it essentially powerless for years to come.

Just as with you and I, all change comes from within.

If it didn't, we wouldn't be here.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 8 years ago

I don't think even 4 years is going to be that predictable

the legitimacy of the current system is in question

Few have faith that the government tells the truth or has the interest of the people in mind

[-] 2 points by shoozTroll (17632) 8 years ago

That's nothing new. I don't actually trust them either..........:)

For several decades now.


That's for the religious.

Never "trust" any government. That's a healthy thing..............:)

The lesser of the "evils", is not between the candidates.

It's government itself...............:) .

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 8 years ago

vrs business rule?

[-] 2 points by shoozTroll (17632) 8 years ago

That would work, or none at all.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 8 years ago

who owns the land?

[-] 2 points by shoozTroll (17632) 8 years ago

At the moment, not me........:)

[-] -1 points by Odin (583) 8 years ago

"That fear will paralyze the movement," so says you, not me. My concern is that we will be tangled up with a system/party that has been duplicitous in what it says, and what it actually does. I have thirty plus years of history to back up my claim, as opposed to you/us in that same time frame having steadily loss of the things we hold most dear....and that is through repub and dem administrations.

[-] 2 points by shoozTroll (17632) 8 years ago

That "fear" of getting down to business has already begun to work it's paralysis.

I watched it happen here on the site.

Before the co-option, OWS was still willing to do what we all know needs to be done in the sort term.

IE: Fielding candidates by 2016.

When that came off the table, many honest supporters left.

[-] 2 points by RadicalsUnite (94) 7 years ago

"That "fear" of getting down to business has already begun to work it's paralysis. I watched it happen here on the site. Before the co-option, OWS was still willing to do what we all know needs to be done in the sort term. IE: Fielding candidates by 2016."

At what occupation was this the original goal? This seems a bit skewed?

[-] 1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 7 years ago

It was/is one of them. One such occupier got elected.

A supporter is running in Michigan, and i'm sure there are others, I've not heard about yet..

If you don't get involved, you're not going to change much, and time is growing short.

And in reference to the OP, they no longer have sardines.


[-] -1 points by Odin (583) 8 years ago

The paralysis you are referring to has been caused by not enough people being educated to what this is about, and those that do know....well their belief that we can vote our way out of 'this', and their inability, or unwillingness to take direct action, and resist in a multitude of ways. I do not agree with your asessment that getting involved with the political system at this point, is a stop on the path to the systemic changes we need. Instead, it will just water us down, co-opt us, and end our chance for the sea change we need.

[-] 2 points by shoozTroll (17632) 8 years ago

I'm sorry Odin, but it's my belief, that it's already been co-opted.

You missed the point of what I said as well.

Someone voted you down, I think that's unfair, as I think you are still being honest with me.

One of my points is that once you've protested a political system you become political too.

You are no longer "apolitical". All you are doing is refusing to use the most effective tool at your disposal.

Because of fear.

[-] 1 points by Odin (583) 8 years ago

To below comment: Yes, Rove and the other republican, and dem strategists are very good at what they do. Unfortunately what they do is not very good, for the 99% anyway.

[-] 1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 8 years ago

They have instilled the fear in OWS, that was/is their aim.

Rove doesn't care what you think.

He successfully blunted the movement.

[-] -1 points by Odin (583) 8 years ago

Reply to below comment: Rove is an intelligent guy, and it is too bad he doesn't use it for good. This movement is wide-spread, and it cannot be stopped by him or anyone else. The numbers though aren't there, nor is the outrage yet which wil happen when we educate enough people

[-] 2 points by shoozTroll (17632) 8 years ago

You're still ignoring the lions share of what I said.

There is still that fear.

That fear is what was created by the co-option.

Plus you just said never.

You have highly underestimated them.

[-] -2 points by Odin (583) 8 years ago

OWS wasn't co-opted before i left for AK, a couple of months ago, and I doubt that anything has changed Yes the dems have picked up the baton, and are running with it, but their idea of reform is not, and will never be the same as ours, if this movement is dissolved into the dem party. Our value is as an outside, radical pressure group that agitates, resists, educates, and organizes. An alliance with the dems....at best will only bring about the veneer of reform, while still keeping neoliberalism in effect. Those that advocated for Civil Rights were a recalcitrant, defiant bunch, who took the same path, as did Ghandi, etc, etc. Eventually they entered the political arena with their demands, not begging for piece-meal reform. It is not because of "fear" so much that I, and many others here do not want to get tangled up with the dems. Rather is is because of knowing the history of other struggles, espescially when the opponent has so much to lose, when we/they succeed..ed.

I realize that we will probably never agree on this, but please know that I believe your heart is in the right place, unlike many others here, and I will keep my promise i made to you several months ago. Thanks.

[-] 2 points by shoozTroll (17632) 8 years ago

The amazing part about a neolibe(R)tarian co-option is their ability to make it feel natural and seamless.

I still run into teabagge(R)s who've never heard of libe(R)tarians, or even the Kochs.

You should also look more closely at the methods Rove uses.

Know that his method makes good use of existing predispositions/attitudes/emotions, to steer towards his aims.

[-] 3 points by ComeTogetherNOW (650) 8 years ago

Money is a tool only. In and of itself, it's just paper with no needs, wants, aspirations, dreams, responsibilities, or long term prospects. We attribute real value to it. We are responsible for it.

If we attribute too much value to it, it will doom us ALL.

We need to try being rational and consider all the facts. We need to carefully make these important decisions based on the truth. I'm not talking of subjective truth that many stretch and bend, rather, the objective truth. The one that absolutely requires evidence and plenty of it.

It's a method to solve not just this problem in AK but all our problems. Unfortunately, many say truth, but it doesn't make it so. Everyone is for truth until it's not convenient any more.

It's a human quality (or human nature) that we are seeing things one way because we believe it's expedient to our survival. But sometimes it's a necessity that we force ourselves, at times, to see the other side, or sure enough, we're doomed.

So far, the truth loses. Not enough people care for it's too inconvenient.

Please consider the facts, check your sources, and stay firmly with the truth. We need it more than ever, or we ALL will find ourselves chucked off this Planet in near future.

Now, why are here???

I tell you, it's for this post, it's paying attention to an issue that matters and it serves our purpose to live in truth. Ignoring truth causes harm to us ALL. Let's do this, just like Odin, here, and put the truth out there. It matters!!! When we do it becomes harder to ignore.

Come Together NOW

[+] -4 points by Odin (583) 8 years ago

It's easy to see that you are on a higher plane than many of us here on this forum. Thank You for your thoughtful comment.

[-] 3 points by ComeTogetherNOW (650) 8 years ago

It's my pleasure. I come only to seek truth.

Come Together NOW

[-] 1 points by NLake72 (510) 8 years ago

I'll come together with you, and stand shoulder to shoulder alongside you. I'll stand there for as long as you keep making sense. Thus far, I like what I see, and I'll fight for your right to keep talking, and the truth will set us all free (and, probably stick us with a bunch of new responsibilities, but that's life.)

[-] 3 points by ComeTogetherNOW (650) 8 years ago

I'm glad to have you on the team my friend. We're all equals and each of us matters. I know people are becoming much more aware these days and this is exactly where change always starts. Good ideas never die, they just get ignored, but eventuality will always win the day. The last I looked science is telling us this Universe has lots of time and we can't determine where it began or where it may end. What we can count on is it's been happening for an infinity. ANd with infinity we are engulfed in a beautiful mystery which slowly reveals itself to us. So, the idea (principle) will wait as long as it takes and we'll inevitably cycle right through it. And we WILL know IT.

North Lake 72, Good Luck!

Come Together NOW

[-] 0 points by Odin (583) 8 years ago

Thanks, I'm determined.

[-] 3 points by factsrfun (8277) from Phoenix, AZ 8 years ago

If only the people of Alaska had been more partisan and worked to keep Palin from getting elected in the first place.


The good news is every few years we get another chance, as long as SCOTUS let’s us.

[-] -2 points by Odin (583) 8 years ago

Your comment does not deserve a reply as it is shallow, asinine, and vindictive, but i would expect nothing less from you at this point. This thread was put up to give people 'thought' for the high price we pay for the world we live in, in terms of enviromental degradation, and to explore ways of alleviating the costs to the enviroment, and to the people. Even my other detractors here realize that, and have put up thoughtful, constructive comments, and I applaud them for that.

I definitely do look forward to meeting you on another playground (thread).

[-] 2 points by factsrfun (8277) from Phoenix, AZ 8 years ago

I know it is hard to look at ourselves and understand where we may have added to the problem, I understand.

[-] -3 points by Odin (583) 8 years ago

It is not difficult to "understand" you either.

[-] 3 points by factsrfun (8277) from Phoenix, AZ 8 years ago

Not at all after all you can read my profile. I have always been clear that I feel the Republicans have worked for the past forty years to create a public debt so large that the bankers will "own" the country and the American people will have no choice but to do what the 1% directs it to.

I think that OWS presents the best chance the nation has of being awaken to the danger of wealth concentration and those that champion both wealth concentration as well as return to monarchy. In case you have forgotten that is the Republican Party, that is why none of them can ever agree to tax the rich, it goes against all they stand for.

Will OWS see it’s potential to completely once and for all end the Republican Party. I hope it does. I hope that seeing how united Great Brittan is behind something like national healthcare will awaken OWS and all America to the ideal that we don’t have to settle we can have good government. We just have to demand it, and the place to start is by getting rid of all republicans.

[-] 4 points by VQkag2 (16478) 8 years ago

Don't give up the fight Facts.

The grand high inquisitor Odin has no plans to do anything except attacks dems with inaccurate comparisons to the criminal republicans. And discourage OWS progressives from supporting dems, or protesting for change.

Stay strong. We are with you.

[+] -4 points by vvv0729 (-189) 8 years ago

No, VQkag2, "we" are not:

Americans Have 3 Choices: Bushbamney, Third-Party or Nobody:


[-] 4 points by VQkag2 (16478) 8 years ago

Yes "WE" are! Progressives who believe we must fight to get the dems back from the right! back from the plutocrat 1%.

Only with a robust progressive protest movement along with getting money out of politics can we hope to co optthe dems. Drag them back from the right and make them serve the 99%.

Si se pueda!

[-] -3 points by vvv0729 (-189) 8 years ago

Besa mi culo, pendejo...

Americans Have 3 Choices: Bushbamney, Third-Party or Nobody:


[-] 4 points by VQkag2 (16478) 8 years ago

You lose in spanish as well!


[+] -4 points by vvv0729 (-189) 8 years ago

Like the Patriot Act, There is Nothing Patriotic About the Raytheon Patriot Missile:


[-] 1 points by rpc972 (628) from Portland, OR 8 years ago

"We" have to participate! When we turnout like Big $, we'll get to call the shots. Anyone discouraging participation, VOTING, is part of the problem. And most poignantly, part of the problem THEY bitch about!!!

There is no equality with water~salmon and copper~gold, water~salmon wins hands down!!

[-] -1 points by Odin (583) 8 years ago

Let's see...."....I feel the Republicans have....." Just add, 'In complicity with the Democrats,' and you've got it! As i have pointed out, one party is more blatant in its attempt to keep us in servitude, and the other party is more insidious in its attempt. Both parties answer to corrupt big monied special interests, not ours. OWS is, and has to remain an outside pressure, resistance group. I will not let you go unchallenged in your efforts to turn this into 'election central' from your Lazy-boy.

[-] 4 points by VQkag2 (16478) 8 years ago

Gee what should we do?

[-] 4 points by factsrfun (8277) from Phoenix, AZ 8 years ago

anything but vote the fuckers out I guess according to the annotated one

[-] 3 points by VQkag2 (16478) 8 years ago

Republicans ARE the problem. Vote out pro Norquist, anti Buffet rule republicans.

Disregard the grand high inquisitor Odin.



[+] -4 points by vvv0729 (-189) 8 years ago

YES. Republicans are the problem. So are the Democrats.

Chevron Oil: Big Boat for Condi, Big Bucks for Bushbama:


[-] 6 points by VQkag2 (16478) 8 years ago

Only dems who vote for republican/conservative policies are a problem.

Elect progressives.

[+] -4 points by vvv0729 (-189) 8 years ago

You mean like the Democratic politicians who voted for NDAA 2012, HR347, HR658, HR3606 and the Democratic politician who signed them all into law?

YES, they ARE problems...

[-] 4 points by VQkag2 (16478) 8 years ago

The only way to correct these problem is to end the republican created atmosphere of fear mongering endless war on terror.

In this regard Republicans ARE the problem. Vote out fear mongering republicans.

[+] -4 points by vvv0729 (-189) 8 years ago

YES. The Republicans are the problem. So are the Democrats. How many fucking times do you want to post this shit, VQkag2?


[-] 3 points by factsrfun (8277) from Phoenix, AZ 8 years ago

This is NDAA 2013


of the 120 nays do we even have to ask how many were Ds?

This repels indefinite detention:


of the 182 yeas, how many Ds, how many Rs?

This one restricts spending in Aganistan to only what is needed to get out:


of the 113 yeas, do you think we will find a Republican?

But here’s a real winner it stops us from reducing the nuclear weapons we have already agreed to:


only 162 voted against that, should we see what the D/R count is?




Yes you have finially made a good point NONE of the things you listed would have passed if we had NO REpublicans, welcome I'm glad you get it now,


[-] 3 points by VQkag2 (16478) 8 years ago

Well done factsrfun. My weakness is gathering these facts. (no pun intended)

good job. Illustrates the reality of the current party positions.

And it matters!

Twinkle for you!



[-] -3 points by Odin (583) 8 years ago

Gee I dunno!


[-] 3 points by VQkag2 (16478) 8 years ago

You're losin it. It is so easy to outlast you. You can't argue the facts. You can't stay with the substance. You can't debate civilly. You can't compete fairly in the marketplace of ideas. And that is because your position is without merit. You lose because you resort to insults when the facts are against you.

Why would I consider suicide when I get so much satisfaction from smokin you and your sorry ass fallacies about the great Pres Obama.


Republicans ARE the problem. Vote out fear mongering republicans

[-] -2 points by vvv0729 (-189) 8 years ago
[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 8 years ago

I hear your parents are looking into retroactive birth control vvv. Seems they somehow got the idea from mittens retroactive resignation from bane.

[-] -2 points by vvv0729 (-189) 8 years ago
[-] 2 points by factsrfun (8277) from Phoenix, AZ 8 years ago

If only you were not so transparent you might have a chance, but truth will win out, you cannot put the genie back in the bottle when people hear simple truth they understand it, there is nothing you can do really, time is almost up for your friends.

[-] -2 points by Odin (583) 8 years ago

If you were not so "transparent", people wouldn't know that you were shilling for the dems, and could care less about the success of this movement. BTW the thread is about the harm we are doing to the enviroment, but you could care less about that too. Electing dems is your main concern. Everything else is secondary.

[-] 0 points by factsrfun (8277) from Phoenix, AZ 8 years ago

You and Nader care nothing for the environment or you would both agree he should not have been on the ballot (Nader) and should of been working to elect Gore instead, If he ever said so publicly I might even think he was sincere, or you for that matter.

[-] 1 points by Odin (583) 8 years ago

Perhaps if we had started voting our conscience, and third party canidates.....rather than the lesser of two evils...forty years ago...we would have already had a strong, viable third party.....and we wouldn't be in this mess today. Are you now the "decider" who determines who should run for President, and who shouldn't?

[-] 0 points by rpc972 (628) from Portland, OR 8 years ago

There is only "the-lesser-of-two-evils," perfection is a myth!

Instant Runoff Elections are the only way thirds get in. And that will never happen if we continue to cede our democracy to Big $ and let the install their employees in the RepubliCon Cult!

If we turnout like Big $ does, we can call the shots. Until then you're just pissing in the wind!

[-] 0 points by Odin (583) 8 years ago

No...we have settled for the lesser of two evils for far too long. So long in fact that the whole political system has gotten screwed up. "You're pisssing in the wind" if you believe that we can get the sea change we need by voting democratic. And keep in mind that is coming from someone who attended Obama's inauguration on that very cold January day.

[-] 1 points by rpc972 (628) from Portland, OR 8 years ago

No, this is fanciful fallacy! It may have a sour ring to it, but every choice is one of "lesser evil," like your wife.

When we get Instant Runoff Elections we'll have more than two parties and RepubliCons will be history because they won't be able to cheat, steal, lie and buy elections (they can't sell plutocracy). Which is both why RepubliCons will never let IREs happen while in government, and why we need to boot their dirty Con asses out of our government.

Boycott Chic fil A and the RepubliCon Cults!!

Get out the VOTE!!

[-] -1 points by Odin (583) 8 years ago

Do you live near factsy? R U factsy?

[-] 1 points by rpc972 (628) from Portland, OR 8 years ago

Boycott Chic fil A and the RepubliCon Cults!!

Get out the VOTE!!

[-] -3 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 8 years ago

I feel sorry for your wife

[-] 2 points by rpc972 (628) from Portland, OR 8 years ago

Why, what have you heard??

[-] -1 points by factsrfun (8277) from Phoenix, AZ 8 years ago

whatever you have to tell yourself when you look at what Bush did knowing that you could of stopped it if only you had been willing to...

[-] 0 points by rpc972 (628) from Portland, OR 8 years ago

what is the incessant disconnect with their logic? they're PLANTS!!! No one is that dense and dumb!!

The question is: cops or Cons??

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 8 years ago

the police shouldn't lie

[-] 0 points by rpc972 (628) from Portland, OR 8 years ago

are you police? Mavbe they use the DHS!

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 8 years ago

just heard some nuclear plant was using PRIVATE security

[-] -1 points by rpc972 (628) from Portland, OR 8 years ago

Are you a plant, MattLHolck??

[-] 2 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 8 years ago

police should not be plants

[-] -1 points by Odin (583) 8 years ago

I like most of the people here tried to stop Bush, only to find that Obama was of the same ilk. You live in a very simple world frf? Have you left your house lately?

[-] 2 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 8 years ago

He keeps playing side "B" of that old hit "I Got Dem Ol' Democrat Blues Again Mama", broken and skipping endlessly, over and over. Side "A" is "It's a Grand Old Party, I'll Cry If I Want To". I wish to God they would stop playing that record!

[-] 1 points by factsrfun (8277) from Phoenix, AZ 8 years ago

another denier chimes in...

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 8 years ago

but the radio told me the parties are polarized more than ever

[-] 0 points by rpc972 (628) from Portland, OR 8 years ago


[-] -2 points by Odin (583) 8 years ago

Time for you and your other pseudyms (boys) to get to work frf. I just had a plus 3 Surely you can get that in the negative territory. lol

[-] -2 points by Odin (583) 8 years ago

Good Morning frf, i see you and your other pseudnyms are getting ready for another big day of promoting partisan politics. I 'get it,' anyone who doesn't want this forum to turn into election central, ie, vote dem is suspect. ie. a repub, right?? I only lost 242 pts.from yesterday. Certainly you, and the boys can do better than that.

[-] -3 points by Odin (583) 8 years ago

You live in a very simple world frf. In some way i envy you, but in most ways I do not.

[-] -3 points by Odin (583) 8 years ago

lol Yeah...it's 'the oldies, but baddies' he keeps playing. While it does get tiring, I'm having fun with him.

[-] 2 points by factsrfun (8277) from Phoenix, AZ 8 years ago

at least you're having fun, I believe Nero did too with that fiddle of his, while OWS burns in the flames of third party bullshit you can get back to your cocktail party

seems a few has caught on to you though

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 8 years ago

facts is a consistent arguer

[-] -2 points by Odin (583) 8 years ago

yeah I know, I'm fairly consistent myself when I believe it is important. If Norman Rockwell had done one of his quintessential paintings of two old dudes....with neck veins popping...arguing politics vehemently at a barber shop...factsy could have posed for it

[-] 0 points by factsrfun (8277) from Phoenix, AZ 8 years ago

So much concern for my daily life, is that the "King" in you slipping out?

Well you are doing a crappy job, I have never seen you post about how Nader helpped Bush get to the White House, and you seem fine with that shit happening again with Romney, so i don't know, I'm starting to think you're just full of shit.

[-] -2 points by Odin (583) 8 years ago

Good Morning factsy... I only lost 8 pts from yesterday...242 pts.lost in 2-3 days....you and your little manufactured little buddies are slowing up. You have successfully turned comments that were plus 4 or more, and brought them into the negative. I really don't mind though because in the process....you are showing everyone what a small-minded little man you are. lol

[-] -3 points by Odin (583) 8 years ago

Factsy, I think understanding this struggle is beyond your capabilities. You're starting to use foul language now. Are you getting frustrated?? lol

[-] 1 points by factsrfun (8277) from Phoenix, AZ 8 years ago

That's so Raven!!!

name mangling, did you get that from the guy in next cube?

[-] -3 points by Odin (583) 8 years ago

Good Morning factsrfun. I can see that you, and your other pseudonyms have been busy down-voting everything i put up there last night, even the most benign of my comments. Are you getting ready for another exhausting day of trying to co-opt this movement into the dem party? lol Don't forget to set your Lazy-boy to just the right angle, and have all your chips, and drinks within arms reach. lol

[-] 2 points by grapes (5232) 7 years ago

Will the people of the Old West (Colorado, California, etc.) please weigh in with your experiences of living with mining operations for many years? Do the tailings still pollute streams and rivers? Have the landscapes returned to their old verdant past or are they still barren? Would you have taken the choice of mining over fish and water again? Are the tailings still being cared for by their creators?

[-] 2 points by NLake72 (510) 8 years ago

Well, I saw the Frontline episode. Yep, this mine is exactly the wrong thing for Alaska, and pretty much the entire world.

[-] -1 points by Odin (583) 8 years ago

The proposed sight for the mine is in one of the worst possible sights.

[-] 2 points by beautifulworld (23372) 8 years ago

Sounds disgusting, frankly. Thanks for educating us about this.

[-] -1 points by Odin (583) 8 years ago

You are welcome bw.

[-] 2 points by geo (2638) from Concord, NC 8 years ago

Clean air, clean water, clean ground.... these are the natural resources every human being, and living thing on Earth needs to survive. It is our natural right to have these things. Nobody has the right to infringe upon our right to these basic resources. That doesn't mean sort of clean... it means clean.

We can live without copper. We can live without gold. We can't live without fish. We have given up enough of our shared resources of clean air, water, and land to industry and the pursuit of money over the past 150 years. Copper is not benign and the tailings from copper AND gold mines is toxic as traces of other heavy metals get concentrated in the waste stream.

With human population growth going exponential, its time to decide what is really important and necessary for our survival as a race. The lines in the sand have to be drawn here and now.

[-] -2 points by Odin (583) 8 years ago

I remember hitch-hiking through the beautiful province of Tasmania almost forty years ago when I came across my first open-pit mine, a copper mine. I could not believe the scope of this old still working mine, and the devastation of the earth. I stayed in a local Youth Hostel that night, and before leaving the next morning, I wrote in the guest book something like, 'This and similar places like it are the price we pay for the world we live in.' I guess my point is we all have to account, and accept responsibility for this type of plundering of the earth as we all reap the benefits.

Unless we are willing to settle for a vasty different type of life, the best we can do for now is, look for alternative products, and hence minerals that are more earth friendly; extracting and refining resources with the best possible methods in places where they will do the least possible harm to the enviroment, and people; and reclaim the land to as near as it was when it was pristine. Doing all this, holding corporations accountable for misdeeds, and recycling on a much larger scale is a must.

As i said in another comment here we also have to give thought to our economic system that requires an ever-expanding consumption of goods, and hence resources to remain vibrant. I am not here to sway people to a different type of economic system, but I do really question whether Capitalism can take us where we want...where we have to go.

One thing for sure is, 'we will need a new way of looking, and acting on the problems we face, not only on a national level, but on a world-wide one.' Hopefully we can do this before it is too late.

[-] 1 points by NLake72 (510) 8 years ago

It seems like this type of issue would be really easy for us all to agree upon. I would think that protecting the environment is something the entire 99% could agree is a valuable investment. Seems like a Constitutional Amendment to protect the environment is something we could get passed, right?

And, Odin is correct. I have friends in Dubai, and they are saying all of the same things that Americans are. This... movement... is an expression of a global feeling of dissatisfaction and manipulation by corporate powers, among others.

A lot needs to be done. The environment is a biggie. I wish the Occupy Movement could find a few baseline, impossible to lose issues like protecting the environment and make them a rallying cry for the 99%. 10 good ideas that everyone with a brain could unite under. 20 is too many. Simple, and easy-- #1, Save the f'ing trees, the water, and the salmon. We want to keep that stuff sacred beyond this generation, you know, for the kids? Anyone got a problem with saving the environment for the kids' future? We ARE the 99%... or ARE we? Surely, this is an issue that even the biggest zealot could compromise on...

[-] -2 points by Odin (583) 8 years ago

Thanks for your support. I think that just about everyone who is in OWS agrees on the importance of saving the enviroment, but unfortunately many people in our country still do not see it that way. We seem to be way behind the rest of the world in this realization, which dismays me.

Your idea of having "10 good ideas that everyone with a brain could unite under" may indeed be a good idea, especially for recruiting people to our side. But the source of our problems is a corrupt system that does not answer to the people, but instead as you said to corporate interests so it goes far beyond that.

[-] 1 points by NLake72 (510) 8 years ago

Oh, I didn't say the system would allow for a great deal of change... :)

And, I think that's the key... Recruiting people, bringing the 99% together, that's the whole goal as I see it. That's how we change the system. Guns won't do it. This is a revolution that begins in the library. We have to win hearts and minds, and we have to educate, and we have to organize. We start with the basic 10, and then we let "We the People" sort out the next 10... Once they've got the hang of how a truly representative government works. Personally, I'm left of center, but I'm happy to work out these issues even with some serious right wingers. That's because I know that we are all pissed off here, regardless of our political persuasion, we all KNOW things are out of whack, it's the solutions that we disagree upon. For now, we can get everyone together for 10 good reasons. It'll be good practice for a system of debate and compromise... Once we get everyone on the same page regarding the first 10 reasons that we can all agree upon, we'll figure out the rest as we go. First, we MUST find something that EVERYONE can rally around. The strength of the 99% is that we're united in dissatisfaction, even those not in the OWS movement.

This is a revolution of ideas. We have to find a way to express those ideas to the American public that makes them want to come out of their houses and walk together. No guns, no fear, no conflict. We will attract people with ideas they can't deny, and we will lure them with love and open arms. That's how you rally the people. 10 good ideas that will shake the system to it's foundation. That's how this revolution will be fought and won, but we first we have to unite ourselves, then bring the people together to rally around 10 undeniable ideas whose time is overdue... If the system resists, then so much the better-- that's the resistance we need to grow stronger, to grow in numbers.

[-] 1 points by NLake72 (510) 8 years ago

Frankly, the corporations don't stand a chance if we do it right. I'm almost sure of it :)

[-] 1 points by NLake72 (510) 8 years ago

Ok, this statement is hubris, plain and simple. But, we ARE the 99%, and that means we've got them by the balls if we just decide to all squeeze together.

[-] -2 points by Odin (583) 8 years ago

It may only be 80% that realize we are getting screwed, and out of that per centage, even far less people understand how or why, but it is at least 99% that are being f**cked over.

[-] 2 points by NLake72 (510) 8 years ago

99% of the living, and 100% of future generations. Personally, part of the reason I'm here is to prove to future generations that some of us were really trying hard to fix things before it was too late. Truly, taken in historical context, it's almost guaranteed that no matter what else we accomplish in our lifetimes, it'll always carry the footnote "... but, these were the same people who trashed the planet..." Man, if every generation has a greater purpose in this Universe, it's our generation that has to figure out how to not destroy the planet within our own lifetimes. Either way, the Corporations don't stand a chance if we can just get it together.

[-] -1 points by Odin (583) 8 years ago

I am a grandpa who has done his 'thing in life, and I am here mostly for my granddaughter.....and also to make amends for our generation having fell asleep at the wheel. In my defense though, i have been politically active throughout my adult life writing many letters to the editor over the years, and having taken part in protest movements beginning with Viet Nam. It is difficult to keep up on top of things though when you are in the midst of battle......raising three intelligent, enlightened daughters who are all out there in the world now making it a better place in their own ways....including one being a public defender (even though she graduated in the top 10% at Fordham and VLS), another being a big sister to kids in need, and yet another very involved with animal rights here in AK.

So it is your generation mostly that will have to come up with the out of the box solutions, and it is also your generation that has the most to lose if this ship isn't righted. I have every confidence that we will be successful in our shared struggle considering your generation's energy, and both of our shared deternination.

You are right in implying that we are in a monumental struggle, which given our part in it, will be the definitive part of our legacy.

[-] 2 points by NLake72 (510) 8 years ago

Even the people I disagree with can take pride in trying to do the right thing. Call it taking pride in civic duty, if nothing else. Anyway, I think most people feel guilty about their personal contributions to world pollution, and that's a healthy sentiment, probably. Also, there's a serious learning curve to this whole saving the world gig. :) Really, though... Maybe it's just been my experience, but I think we all have to change some aspects of our thinking-- at pretty fundamental levels. This takes a lot of time and patience, both of which I think most people are running short of... Making a sort of New Deal, and adding the issue of saving the environment should be a no-brainer, truly, a great uniter. Anyway, it's not like there's any serious alternative, right? Bwahahaha... I laugh at how simple the choices really are. Poison the planet and ourselves along the way, or... Try to wake people up before it's too late... Sometimes life offers you some pretty simple choices :)

[-] -1 points by Odin (583) 8 years ago

I do believe that we can reach out to those people who are right of center, and that is one of the reasons that this should not become a partisan campaign. But reaching out, and convincing many "serious right wingers" might be futile. This rev has got to be about educating the people, agitating, and organizing. The "ten reasons", I do believe is a good idea. From there people could learn more as we have here.

[-] 1 points by NLake72 (510) 8 years ago

Personally, I think we should call ourselves the 80%, not the 99%. That's not to say we can't welcome everyone, and do our level best to un-brainwash them... but it seems pretty futile at times.

However, even with 80% we can change the world. At that point, we'll gain another 5% of people who either see the light or just want to be on the right side of history.

10 ideas that anyone with a brain and a pulse can rally behind. 10 ideas for everyone to see plain as day. 10 new ways of doing things. 10 good reasons for people to decide it's "cool" and "fashionable" to come join the OWS marches-- 10 uniting bonds that tie us all together. Keep it simple, offer hope, and don't scare the straights. We have to agree to rally and organize and stay on message.

Can all this be done entirely non-violently? That's the goal. We win hearts and minds, we make a list of 10 things that nobody respectable can rally against. No anarchism talk, no clashing with the police. That's NOT how you rally the support of the American people. Hope and an insistance on a better way of doing things, for the future of our kids, that's what OWS has to represent. We need it to be cool and fashionable to march in protest, and we have to stay on message. We can't turn anyone away, and we have to provide organized information to anyone who comes here looking for direction, and looking to get involved.

[-] -1 points by Odin (583) 8 years ago

Yes, I can agree with most of that, and having anarhists here is a quandary. On one hand, it hurts our recruitment efforts, but on the other side of the coin, we need them because as far as I can see all great movements had radicals in them. As I have pointed out in past comments, Roosevelt was able to get the sea change we so desparately needed then by using the radicals to negotiate with the corrupt elite far better terms.

[-] 1 points by NLake72 (510) 8 years ago

Well, anarchism has it's merits, I suppose, but let's stop and think about where we are, and when we are in history. The American people aren't going to help tear down the existing system for ANY kind of new political and economic system. Period. And, they'll shoot anyone who wants to try. That's not my rule, that's just reality. The hard truth is that nobody is going to tear down America with no plan for putting it back together. If the cops and soldiers don't get them, the farmers and the bankers and the pizza delivery drivers will.

So, we, including the anarchists, must be humble, and realistic. We've got to work together to reform the system we've got. That means everyone, and that means we have to get off our damned political pedestals and work together. Nobody is going to get it all their way, that's compromise for you-- sometimes, life is a drag, I know. Unity is the key, and we have to keep trying to cross the great divide. Deciding it's time to stop talking is a cop-out. At that point, you're just wasting time before you start being ultra-violent in order to have it all your way. Really, that's the major problem with our elected officials: they insist that their party doctrine is more important than working with the other side for reasonable solutions. We the people expect more from them, and we should expect much more from ourselves. We have to find a way to unite, and nobody gets everything they want.

We're all Americans. That's one people. We have to start trying to act like we're the world champions of democracy.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 8 years ago

Guiding rule - should be - IMO - Health and prosperity for ALL - as well as People over profits.

[-] 0 points by Odin (583) 8 years ago

If we didn't need a sea change, I would agree with you. We are going up against an entrenched corrupt system that has a lot to lose when we become victorious. Look at the coal company towns of the early 20th century. To a big degree, they are a microcosm of what is going on today. It is my sincere hope, it can be done peacefully.

[-] 2 points by NLake72 (510) 8 years ago

Well, it's a cultural revolution, it's a time for fresh thinking. Welcome to the 21st century-- let's not regress into 20th century habits. There IS a sea change coming, new fashions of thought, new fashions of clothing, new ideas about art and music.

And yes, new ideas on whether it's a human right to seek medical care at any time, sick or well, at the cheapest possible rates. What other function does a democratic government serve than to protect it's people and serve their needs? Probably, universal healthcare should rank right up there with equal access to public education and clean water. It's my strong opinion that some things really shouldn't be up for debate.

And, coal towns are indeed an interesting example... My feeling is that even Ghandi's words got people killed. However, non-violence is the only viable solution to these problems. Guns are certainly not going to be much use against culture warriors, and our neighbors just aren't our enemy-- let alone cops or soldiers. It's just not that kind of revolution. This is a revolution of thought. Still, it's probable that things can go pretty far off the chain if the right conditions occur. Our job is to skip that detour into insanity and learn to work together. Today. And, tomorrow.

At the same time, consider that our political parties, and certainly the big spenders behind the scenes: they are willing to risk it. For political power and monetary gain, they are willing to distort and break the system and not fix it. And then? Dish out lower tax rates and reduced regulation for themselves. Even in this kind of financial crisis, they'd rather play political games rather than reach across the aisle and fix the American machine. Frankly, these guys don't even understand what their job really is.

Can we get major systemic reforms with a complete lack of violence? No, I rather doubt it. But, non-violence is the only way it'll work. We don't need Patton-- he'd be bored to tears and probably wander around touring America's battlefields telling tales of how wasteful it was, and how badly it sucked. No. We need Gandhi to wander America and tell people to get off their asses and quietly stand up and politely insist that there is a new way of doing things (sans corruption.) Reforming the system shouldn't require any violence at all (remember last fall when the student body turned out in stone cold silence? That's the HEAT we need.) It requires an agenda with simple talking points, cooperation among groups, and it has to offer hope to practically everyone who isn't part of this... confederacy of open minds.

[-] -1 points by Odin (583) 8 years ago

I can agree with all that.

[-] -2 points by Odin (583) 8 years ago

I just want to add that i agree that we need "fresh thinking," and that will come from the young. The old paradigms, the way of looking at things, and acting upon them will no longer stand under a people who are fed up with them. There are lessons that we can learn from history though that will help get us to that point, but from there, it is in your court....the court of people with admittedly more vision than i have.

[-] -1 points by Odin (583) 8 years ago

Another point about, "The American people aren't going to tear down the existing system....." No they aren't at this point, but once we have democratic system that works for the people, we might then have progressed enough to realize the crisis that we are in on an enviromental basis. At that point all things should be possible, including a different political and economic system that is more earth, and people friendly.

[-] 1 points by RadicalsUnite (94) 7 years ago

Good post. Where ya been?

[-] 1 points by cJessgo (729) from Port Jervis, PA 8 years ago

The so called choice has already been made for them.Any questions?

[-] -3 points by Odin (583) 8 years ago

Yes I fear that you are right. There is a lot of money at stake, and we all know that our political system answers to it, but still we can't give up.

[-] 1 points by cJessgo (729) from Port Jervis, PA 8 years ago

Yes.Never give up.To do so is suicidal .At some future point the American people may wake up.Let us not hold our breath until then.

[-] 1 points by rpc972 (628) from Portland, OR 8 years ago

Salmon and Clear water!!

Two of the most important and vital natural resources on the planet!!

Fuck copper and gold!

[-] -2 points by Odin (583) 8 years ago

I wish it were that easy. Copper is needed in water pipes, electric including wind turbines and hydro power, cars, computers, and a host of other things. Are you ready to give that all up? It's about intelligent choices that minimize the harm to the enviroment, and to people.

[-] 2 points by rpc972 (628) from Portland, OR 8 years ago

I'm a red-blooded can-do American, and if there is a will, there is a way! Difficulty and ignorance are no excuses, at all, to justify messing up our precious salmon runs and clean waters!! We have done enough of that already.

Recycling works: wrought iron.

Fiber-optics are widely underutilized. Advanced light technology can make typical current conductivity applications obsolete.

We need to save our planet and get off oil 30 years ago, despite the entrenched market, we need to save our precious salmon runs and clean waters now, and do without replaceable minerals. We can do it.

[-] -2 points by Odin (583) 8 years ago

We can agree on that, and put off our disagreements for another day. Recycling on a major scale, and looking for alternatives that are more earth friendly would be a major step forward. Thanks.

[-] 1 points by rpc972 (628) from Portland, OR 8 years ago

So fuck copper and gold mining that endangers the environment!! Do you even realize the vastness and importance of the Great North West salmon runs? It is one of the largest influxes of nutrients on the entire planet.

[-] -1 points by Odin (583) 8 years ago

Yes I do realize the vastness and importance of the Great Northwest Salmon runs, and i do not want the Pebble Mine to be developed. Still though we have to be honest with ourselves, and accept our part/responsibility for the destruction of the earth in extracting the minerals which are needed to make the products we use.

[-] 2 points by NLake72 (510) 8 years ago

Both of these arguments have merit... need of resources vs needs for food. A balance will have to be found and a compromise struck. I'll do more reading on the issue, but Odin does have a point, and I think we all agree that we need clean water and food. First and foremost, we and our grandchildren need to be able to eat. Recycling can work, commodity prices can change or be subsidized to promote the use of clean energy and recycled products. Consumer habits can change. People can learn to think globally. The environment matters most, and things like clean water are already a scarcity.

We need to agree to find a balance that serves the planet and the people's needs for things that require uh... copper. And yeah, somebody probably has to see a way to make a buck doing it, or we'll never get anything produced. Businesses are organized around leaders who want to get stuff done, and that seems to be a profit scheme, almost every time. Is this mine necessary? I don't know. I'll read up on it. But if it's not, and it's truly a risk to clean water and the survival of a lot of salmon? Man... We have to really think carefully about priorities, compromise, and what's actually best for today AND tomorrow. It's a topic that we should all research a bit, and really think about both sides of the argument. I default to the trees, the fish, the water, the air, and the moon and the stars, in lieu of any other information. Which, I'll look up on my fancy computer in my air conditioned room. Which, has electricity unlike our brothers in Northern India, who have unclean water, air, and this week... intermittent power.

Now is most certainly the time to honestly and openly engage these very issues, and vow to be responsible to something larger than our own personal desires. That much I'm sure of.

[-] -1 points by Odin (583) 8 years ago

I put this thread up to start the dialogue, and you have picked up the baton very well. We all have to be held to account for the world we live in, and there are no easy answers. I definitely feel this vital, pristine area in AK should be spared. I was telling one of my daughters today here in AK, there have been anti-pebble mine ads running every night during the Olympics. She said that the second richest dude in AK has been funding them.

[-] 1 points by NLake72 (510) 8 years ago

I'm not sure how expensive water will be in the future, but I'm guessing it'll be worth a lot more than it's weight in gold. I don't care where you stand on global warming, or protecting the environment, but there's no denying that there's a growing shortage of clean water... Maybe a little long-term planning makes sense, eh? And yeah, it's not every rich person who's evil, but boy... the scumbags give the whole lot a bad name... I even know a couple rich people, and they're definitely part of the 99%.

[-] 0 points by rpc972 (628) from Portland, OR 8 years ago

No we don't! We need to END IT NOW!!!

[-] 1 points by PeterKropotkin (1050) from Oakland, CA 8 years ago

Good post Odin

[-] -2 points by Odin (583) 8 years ago

Thanks, the link above that shadz put up is very good too. It taught me things I didn't know. Admittedly I have been late getting up to speed with this controversy despite knowing about it for a while. There are no easy answers, are there?

[-] 2 points by PeterKropotkin (1050) from Oakland, CA 8 years ago


[-] 0 points by stenchylepew (0) 7 years ago

There is not a single square inch on planet Earth, chicken little liberals won't protest to defend because there is some sort a algae growing there, that is vital to all life on planet Earth,

Give it a rest morons. Salmon will survive. YOU are the ones who will be dead soon. Thankfully

[-] 0 points by Nevada1 (5843) 8 years ago

Hi Odin,

Thank you for your efforts on this.

Best Regards

[-] -2 points by Odin (583) 8 years ago

You're welcome. I had known about this controversy from my two daughters here for some time, and didn't think it was getting the attention it should have in the lower 48. I was surprised though when i started really looking into this that Frontline did a show about it this past Tuesday.

[-] 0 points by shadz66 (19985) 8 years ago

Thanx for this strong 'forum-post' & I wish you and yours all the best. I just read about this situation and I enclose another link below :

IF this mine goes ahead, another very real question may be ; 'where are the proceeds of this endeavour going to go ?' - Whilst the private sector can and will make big profits, ought not the majority of the proceeds of the mineral mining go to The Citizens of Alaska & The US 99% and ought the majority of monies be earmarked for social and infrastructural projects throughout The USA, in order to benefit the most number of people as opposed to merely line private pockets and enrich only a few ?

respice, adspice, prospice ...

[-] -3 points by Odin (583) 8 years ago

Knowing the pristine beauty of Alaska, and the importance of the salmon industry to native, and commercial interests, I hope this project is stopped. However I realize that I am one of the people that need copper whether in this LT I'm tapping away on now, or for the pipes that bring fresh water to my house. So if not here....where? The people who were near other abandoned mines throughout the world have most often been left holding the bag in terms of toxic waste leaking into their water supply. That has to stop, and renumeration in the form of "social infrastructure projects" to these people in some way like you said has to happen. Thanks.

[-] -1 points by shadz66 (19985) 8 years ago

IF this mine is to go ahead then 'Capitalism's Externalities' have got to be addressed, redressed and 'accounted for'. The Environmental and Social Costs in all such endeavours have hitherto been offloaded onto 'Society' at large, where all of us must pick up the tab !

Ethically and morally, the land is "the commons" & no 'Intellectual Property Rights' vis a vis 'mining' apply. It is an 'Extractive Enterprise' - such that it is a modern metaphor for : purely for private profit ; 'high-finance but low morals' ; 'hoover-up' ; corporate crapitalism !!

The proceeds of any 'exploitation' of these rare resources must accrue to The 99% of the people & not just "trickle down capitalism" but 'shower down sharing' must ensue !!!

multum in parvo ...

[-] -1 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 8 years ago


Everything that can be done- From the very the start of a process and all the way through every step of a process "to stop pollution and destruction" of the environment ( at the site - and off of the site of the extraction ) MUST BE DONE. Monetary cost is not a valid concern. LIFE - ALL LIFE - IS THE VALID CONCERN!!!

[-] -2 points by Odin (583) 8 years ago

Yes not only do "Capitalism's Externalities" have to be addressed, but 'Capitalism' itself has to be re-evaluated. We all know the benefits of capitalism, and it providing us with a relatively good life. But with a system that requires unlimited growth, and hence the extraction, and the refining of infinite resources....all while degrading the enviroment... on a finite planet......well we have started to see the negative effects, haven't we? I never thought i would have said that not that long ago. It's just that i believe we, the world is in a critical time in our history/civilization, and exploring new ways of looking and acting on our problems is essential if we are going to survive as a species. Is this all scary? Yes, but we have to look at it as a challenge, and we need forward thinking, and we have to set our sights.

A good friend of one of my daughters (and a friend of mine as well) runs a group called REAP, Renewable Energy Alaska Project. He speaks before, and meets with enviromentalists, elected officials, etc. both here, Washington, and throughout the world promoting and seeing what approaches other countries are taking in the alternative energy field. One of REAP's pojects is to bring AE to remote Alaskan villages that have never been on the grid with the hope they never will never need to be...on the electric grid. Although despite being an optimistic person, the two things I remember him telling me (paraphrasing him) when I saw him in NYC while he was fund-raising there were: 1. Americans do not realize how far behind they are in the developement, and implementation of alternative energy, and 2. If we do not change course soon, we are in real trouble.


[-] -1 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 8 years ago

If people really want to prevent the squandering of the earth's resources such as this open pit mine, a field of oil wells, or a mountain top removed for it's coal, Stop. Stop buying the useless junk that the media has convinced you that you must have to to be "part of the crowd".

The mines are the result of our demand for the products that utilize these resources. If you protest against this mine, but create demand for the copper it produces by purchasing products that use miles of copper wire, protest against yourself instead! You are ultimately the one to blame!

Look around. How many of the things you "just had to have" are more than 10 years old, still work, and are still being used? How many have already been thrown out or clutter your garage?

There are alternatives. Buy used, buy in bulk, buy generic, make or grow yourself, and the best, realize you really don't need it in the first place. One less thing to repair, replace, and throw away. Life does not require us to have so much.

If every possession was taken from you, your car and house, your stocks and bonds, every dollar and penny, only the real you would be left. Would you jump out of a skyscraper like some did during the depression? There was nothing left of value within those people, everything was external and once that vanished, life for them did also.

Your possessions do not make the world a better place. What you give does. Your value is what you give, not what you possess.

[-] -2 points by Odin (583) 8 years ago

I agree with everything you say, and I practice minalism to a point by choice, as do my kids. I remember when my ex came over here to live from New Zealand almost 40 years ago. She was amazed at the waste that our society produced. However most people here at that time did not see the problem. She truly was ahead of her time for this country anyway.

Still though, I know that I am part of the problem, and so are you unless you live in a cave or something. So we have to accept part of the responsibility for the way things are, and look to the never-ending challenge of righting things as best as possible.

[-] 0 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 8 years ago

I definitely don't live in a cave. My possessions are relatively few, a modest house and a modest but fuel efficient car. Compared to the average American, very low consumption, but to the average Indian, very high consumption.

The best rule of thumb for determining one's impact on the earth is how much they spend. It really doesn't matter if you own a new Prius or a used Corolla, the one that costs the least overall over time will usually pollute the least and use the fewest resources.

[-] -2 points by Odin (583) 8 years ago

I admire you for practicing what you preach...and having a small 'foot-print.' It is really about changing people's ethos, as BW said in a comment a while back, is what will be needed.

[-] -2 points by delayedgrat (-157) 8 years ago

How far back intime are you willing to travel? Modern life is ridiculously easy relative to even 30 years ago. That requires minerals, mining, energy. It requires subjugation of nature. If you want salmon, will you hand wash your clothes? If you want salmon, will you walk only to work? If you want salmon will you throw away your computer, your cellphone, digital scanner, self checkout line, and air travel?

How small a life do you want? Can you live without modern streetlights?

[-] -2 points by Odin (583) 8 years ago

Yes "modern life is ridiculously easy relative to even 30 years ago," but are we better off for it? Are we happier? Are we in better shape because we sit around and listen and watch the 'latest' in audio or video equipment? We have been conditioned into the ranks of consumerism which capitalism thrives on, and the more we buy/consume the happier we will be. That's bullshit, but yes very few of us would want to do away with all the modern conveniences we have. So how can we solve this dilema of mitigating the harm that we do to the earth, and ourselves while extracting these minerals, and needing fewer of them to begin with. This should be our challenge, and we should take it head-on, not just for our sake, but for the sake of our children.

Please see my above comment, second from the top, and add to that list of ideas: making products that last, and can be easily upgraded Thank You.

[-] 1 points by NLake72 (510) 8 years ago

Delaydgrat, good questions... Perhaps it's less about time travel than returning to certain traditional ways of doing things-- glass plates rather than paper products, just as an example... Is this really so bad? Maybe we pamper ourselves a bit too much? Do we all need inefficient SUV's? Do we have the right to expect one? Instead, maybe if we all drove ultra-light cars we'd be just as safe in an accident, and an SUV would be more of a lifestyle specific need, rather than a very fine luxury? (FYI: I have an SUV because I got a sweet deal on it-- and I do enjoy it, but I don't really need that much horsepower, most days.)

The word "sustainable" could hardly be used to describe the modern lifestyle. However, we also export the ideas, and some of the goods that help the world define for themselves what it is to be truly modern. If windmills were in vogue, the whole world would be clamoring for them, simply as a status symbol (happily, they ARE coming into vogue.)

I agree that I enjoy a very cushy lifestyle, with plenty of gadgets, but so what? Will my grandchildren have that same opportunity? Not if we keep using resources the way we have been (although, a reasonably strong argument for the evolution of technology could be applied, but it sounds like a technology born of desperate necessity.)

So, how small a life do I want? Maybe that's the question that faces our whole culture right now... Is there enough stuff to fill one's soul? Is there a better way to attain what I want? We can't change materialism, but we can change the way we think about our material goods (as Odin points out, do we need a disposable anything? Do we even have the right to it, if it costs future generations the same "good life."-- I really don't think we do.)

That's the revolution of thought... We have to actually change the way we think and act toward each other, and the world. We need to figure out a better way of doing things, and that will require us to apply it on a personal level. And our f'ing corrupt system is the main opponent to progressive thought and action.

[-] 0 points by delayedgrat (-157) 8 years ago

Lets game play this a bit. 2 households, one living as we did 50 years ago. Handwash dishes, rotary phone, no computer, cheap clothes washer, hang dry clothing, one TV, rarely travel by plane, no computer games, no internet access, only one car in the family, 1200 square foot house. The bare minimum of labor saving devices and entertainment

the second house has a modern dishwasher, modern computer driven clothes washer/dryer, car for Mom, car for Dad, car for Junior. They go to Hawaii every year, eat out 3 times a week.

How long before Family A becomes envious of family B?

[-] 3 points by NLake72 (510) 8 years ago

Maybe even more importantly, when does Family A become so embarrassed by their personal excess that they choose another lifestyle? How fast will they turn around their evil ways when they realize the culture has changed around them, and it's not 50 years ago anymore. When does family A decide that they have to live more responsibly (or, risk feeling like a pariah)? When does growing a garden full of vegetables become a status symbol higher than that garden filled with ornamental plants? When do people start taking pride in this kind of lifestyle? It happens when the culture, the attitudes and the way people think, changes. That's our job, and we won't sell the future by screaming for anarchy.

So, for family B: When family A's attitudes are then exported to the world as a model of "the good life." Family B, at that point, wanting to seem modern, ultra-hip, and so forth, decides to emulate family A, who is attempting to live responsibly. We export our values to the world, and that includes tastes in material goods. Yes, there might be a certain maturation process for the newly rich, but the culture will define their relative satisfaction or dissatisfaction with a wasteful material life. If we stop selling the idea that everyone needs a gold plated toilet, people will stop lusting for the golden experience (more's the pity, so I've heard...)

[-] -3 points by Odin (583) 8 years ago

It is difficult to tell if a person with 'class' has money or not as one that does has no need for all the toys. My three daughters lead the life of family B despite having decent incomes.... I must admit better than I do...vege gardens....canning...supporting local businesses....shopping at 2nd hand stores....treating people fairly, and honestly...recycling etc. I credit that mostly though to my New Zealand raised ex (time heals all wounds) who was light-years ahead of people in this country on so many levels , and also to having been raised in the wonderful state of Vermont where there really is a different set of ethos than in most places in this country.

[-] -2 points by Odin (583) 8 years ago

You forward thinking is what this world needs more of. We have devolved into a pattern of destuction....the near constant wars....corporate manipulation of people...destroying more of our enviroment in the last 100 or so years than in all the preceeding millenniums, and having our elected officials making a mockery of our democracy/republic.

It's time that we start living up to the people we want to be, or already are.... to our religious beliefs, or to our morals. We have to quit being hypocrites, and strive for the world that we want to live in. We need a big change in our ethos, and the way most of us on this planet want the world to be. Good Night.

[-] 2 points by NLake72 (510) 8 years ago

Well, I think the American consumer needs to grow up a bit... You have paper food waste because we're like little kids who can't clean up after themselves. Our culture celebrates children, and we have a disposable mentality... Kinda makes you wonder... Either way, the American lifestyle is emulated the world over... What if we changed our definition of material success? What if it became "uncool" to be the guy with the most toys? What if "winning" at life was defined in a more... mature... manner? "I have rights" is great to yell and scream and fight for, but "I have responsibilities" is something you think to yourself. Everyone wants the best of the best if they can have it... But we define that for ourselves, or we let advertizements define our values... What if the fashion sense we exported to the world, what if the definition of "modern chic" was something that seems so... old fashioned today. Food for thought, and g'night.

[-] -1 points by Odin (583) 8 years ago

Our values have been twisted by corporate America, but we bare the ultimate responsibility for having let that happen.

[-] 2 points by NLake72 (510) 8 years ago

Funny how everyone thinks Big Brother is the model for manipulating society, eh? Turns out it's the f'ing advertizements... It would be funny if it wasn't so darn effective.

Either way, we still have control of what we sing, what we paint, and what choose to learn.

Lol at the people who talk about mind control beams... It's not that complicated, nor does it need to be. Truth and lies simply have to be beamed on a repeating frequency, and people will begin to mouth the words...

Thus, we have to change the way people think, the words they speak to each other. We have to change personally, and that requires a lot of thought and effort. We have to make it cool to be a protester. We have to be a team that sensible people and morons alike want to join. Getting the people together, getting them organized, educated, and giving them a direction to point the angst that we all share-- that's the key. Issues like saving the environment should be like shooting fish in a barrel, and they are topics that can sway the people. Mom and pop, apple pie, baseball, and clean water... Americans, real Americans, love this stuff and will join in a parade any day. Go Trees. Go America... It can work.

[-] -2 points by Odin (583) 8 years ago

Your fresh approach is intoxicating, and that is a very viable way to go about this. i try to emulate much of it while doing my part in the streets. Protesting..... the flag, and mom's apple pie....sounds good to me. Your ideas are already happening in Occupy Town Square, an affinity group that I belong to.

[-] 2 points by NLake72 (510) 8 years ago

Very good. The evolution of this movement needs inertia, and being organized is a critical piece of the snowball effect. Keep the message so clear that even the church crowd will skip Sunday lunch to go out and fix the world's ills. The environment is one idea whose time has come. I'll volunteer alternative energy sources as the second. 8 more ideas that anyone with half a brain can become zealous about will suffice. Leave out the crazy talk and focus on reforms that are already long overdue, that we can agree upon, and demand action together with one voice.

[+] -4 points by salta (-1104) 8 years ago

get rid of the epa. they are a rogue agency that make laws by calling them regulations. they are not empowered by the constitution to do so.

[-] 5 points by NLake72 (510) 8 years ago

Salta, you have to be the most brainwashed person on this board. Do you really believe this? Are you fucking insane? Or just stupid? Who is paying you? Do some real research and quit mouthing the words of your corporate handlers. Sorry to be rude, but you are either a stooge, or a completely misinformed person who needs to read a much broader range of news. Seriously... the Constitution needs a new amendment to protect the environment. The EPA fills that perceived need even without it. Anyone who is trying to get rid of the EPA is probably a crook who stands to gain from deregulation. Wake up and smell what you're shoveling, you're totally misinformed and misguided. The EPA needs stronger teeth, if anything.

[+] -5 points by salta (-1104) 8 years ago

the epa is a rogue entity.

[-] 4 points by VQkag2 (16478) 8 years ago

Your suggestion would put american people at risk of. poison food, water, air. The conservative 1% plutocrat corps would love it. They won't spend any money protecting these areas unless we had the great EPA to watch them. It should be expanded!

So once again you advocate against your own class with republican/plutocat talking points that will be NEGATIVELY affect the 99%.

Nothing positive. Negative talking points that benefit they 1% plutocrats that prey on all of us.

Predictable, and irrelevant.

[-] 4 points by NLake72 (510) 8 years ago

See, this is the thing... The EPA does good work, or it's designed to. We can't leave this up to the states, we can't just hope that corporations will miraculously do the right thing to protect the environment. The only people who benefit from lack of regulation is the criminals who are wrecking the environment for their own personal profit, today. So, who's fooling who here? How can people be so utterly stupid as to think what we need is less government oversight and regulation? It's INSANE. Of course, it'll be the democrats fault if global warming happens to turn out to be a real theory (trust me, the republicans will just keep lying until their constituents start believing it... it'll take about a full news cycle.) If there's any justice, there will be a new tradition in the coming centuries which is to perform a pilgrimage to the graves of the Koch brothers and pour toxic waste on their memories... Out of respect, you might say.

[-] 2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 8 years ago


Sounds like a party.

[-] 3 points by NLake72 (510) 8 years ago

Dude, I'll bring a case of beer and we can pee on their graves all night long. Thanks Kochs! Really appreciate what you've done for this world! Anytime you want to save your legacy... Well, it's too late for that... The wonder twins of America's silent coup of 2012... It's a start, eh?

[-] 3 points by VQkag2 (16478) 8 years ago

No doubt.

Evil plutocrat bastards.

[-] 3 points by NLake72 (510) 8 years ago

I think the thing that kills me is that they grew up in America. They should know better than to try to mislead the American people, and brazenly buy our elected officials. Sorry, but no f'ing way do they get a pass on that kind of behavior...

What is the word for treasonous when it extends past cultural disloyalty and in fact betrays the entire planet? I'm not sure there's a word in the Queen's English to define it. Maybe in the future that's what "koching" will mean... To betray the entire planet, starting with your own country, for your own maniacal ends. Hmm... I think I have my next comic strip ready to draw...

Anyway, the sad part is, it's not just the Kochs, there's a whole bunch of these guys and they are out there, right now, trying to buy our elections, mainly for no better reason than to further grease their machines.

[-] 4 points by VQkag2 (16478) 8 years ago

And to fill their pockets.

I think the traitorous word for planet wide lechery might be :

inhumane, or canabalic, barbarous,

somthing like that forthe kochheads and their peers.

[-] -1 points by Odin (583) 8 years ago

You do kind of expect clean water to come out of your faucet, don't you?

[+] -7 points by salta (-1104) 8 years ago

the epa is a rogue agency, making laws ( calling them regulations) when they are not constitutionally empowered to do so.

[-] 2 points by NLake72 (510) 8 years ago

You said that before, and it was a simple-minded argument to begin with. Maybe simple solutions are the answer here, but just because the framers didn't put in the most obvious stuff like... No molesting kids, no destroying the environment for personal profit... This doesn't mean regulating industries isn't a mandate of our government, as (under) represented by the EPA.

[-] 1 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 8 years ago

In Southern California, without the various regulations and laws imposed by various regulatory agencies and Congress against smog, the death rate from airborne pollutants would be substantial and the air a sickly dark brown. I am thankful for those laws and regulations even though I favor a bare minimum of any laws.

Their is always a compromise choosing between safety and freedom, wealth and poverty. Neither side will ever be completely happy, but let's choose what is best for those least able to defend themselves so at least the children and elderly can breathe easier.

[-] 3 points by NLake72 (510) 8 years ago

I lived in Atlanta for over a year before (one miraculous day) the air cleared and I could see Stone Mountain from my workplace. It was only about 15 miles away, but the smog obscured it. It was like a mystery mountain that only appeared on the skyline once in a blue moon. And, you couldn't really open your window during rush hour traffic, or you might suffocate, or simply black out on I-85... Ok, it wasn't quite that bad, but you couldn't really breathe if your window was down. Smog matters, even if we aren't quite aware of it most of the time.

[-] 0 points by Odin (583) 8 years ago

The EPA is not perfect by a long-shot, but someone has to protect people from unbridled capitalism.

[-] 1 points by rpc972 (628) from Portland, OR 8 years ago

Say thank you to the Democratic Party who fought RepubliCons tooth and nail to get it (and every other public service program and policy) through. Nixon jumped on the band wagon for Votes and cover for his maniacal new Shock Doctrine scheme in Chile. Which is now the stagey for waging the KingCon Class War here on Americans.


[-] 2 points by rpc972 (628) from Portland, OR 8 years ago


Way to hedge your bets. Lewis Powell and Milton Friedman would be very proud of you.

[-] -2 points by Odin (583) 8 years ago

I am not letting either the repubs, or the dems off the hook.

[+] -6 points by salta (-1104) 8 years ago

"not perfect"??????? it's lawless.

[-] 2 points by rpc972 (628) from Portland, OR 8 years ago

NO! It just seems that way to you because you're brainless.

RepubliCons, their Big $ masters and their five fascist POSs in the SCOTUS are "lawless."

[-] 1 points by JesseHeffran (3903) 8 years ago

Out of all the agencies that can be labeled Non Constitutional, the EPA is the least detrimental to our society. I believe these non Constitutional agencies exist because Congress no longer has the courage of conviction. They are so afraid of electorate retribution that they give all decision making powers to administrative agencies.

[-] 2 points by rpc972 (628) from Portland, OR 8 years ago

Please apprise us all of ALL the "Non Constitutional agencies."

[-] 1 points by JesseHeffran (3903) 8 years ago

I'd say any agency that takes decision making authority out of the chambers of congress and puts it in the hands of non electable officials is non constitutional. The FED and the WTO are but a few that are blatantly obvious. But arguments could be made for other administrative departments as well. I don't believe their authority is stipulated anywhere within the document.

[-] 2 points by rpc972 (628) from Portland, OR 8 years ago

President proposes and Congress disposes: Obama should have asked for more and I believe he did, but Congress only spent what they did to plug the giant gaping hole Republicon Bush left in our economy! Probably the most important thing the stimulus did was save millions of lives (we know you Cons don't give a shit about that) from the devastation of abject poverty and the mutilation of military action conducted on the starving masses attacking the rich!!

People, do you want to get your way from government for a change??? GET OUT THE VOTE!!! Turn out a 90% and watch what happens!!! We will get the government that the 1% is enjoying by design!! Quit being manipulated!! VOTE!!!

[-] -3 points by salta (-1104) 8 years ago

epa, doe, doe, hud ,hhs, FEMA, the most dangerous of all agencies.

[-] 1 points by rpc972 (628) from Portland, OR 8 years ago

These are the sheriffs Big $ outlaws love to hate. That makes them the good guys!!

[-] 0 points by salta (-1104) 8 years ago

you are so confused.

[-] 1 points by rpc972 (628) from Portland, OR 8 years ago

You are such a RepubliCon Plant!!

[+] -5 points by salta (-1104) 8 years ago

the epa, the doe ( education) the doe ( energy)hud, all worthless and detrimental.

[-] 2 points by TitusMoans (2451) from Boulder City, NV 8 years ago

I have to admit you've practiced stupidity to perfection. Encore!

[-] -2 points by salta (-1104) 8 years ago

you are the product of a deformed education.

[-] 2 points by NLake72 (510) 8 years ago

The Department of Education didn't fail you, you failed yourself. Then, you failed your country by falling for the "simple solutions" trap laid by hackneyed politicians and corporate punditrs. Seriously, get down to the library and then hop on the team for the big win.

[+] -5 points by salta (-1104) 8 years ago

i never said the the doe( education ) failed me. you're not very good at reading comprehension. its a waste of taxpayer money.