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Forum Post: This is NOT Capitalism

Posted 2 years ago on June 16, 2012, 10:49 p.m. EST by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

When my bank rips off the nation, and gets to further rob us because the gov protects it- that is not capitalism.

When I cannot start a simple business, say painting houses, becaue the big builders have lobbied for so manu regualtions that I would need around 4k to get going- that is not capitalism.

When I get ONE choice on who to purchase energy for my home from, because they have partnered with the gov and made it impossible to get anything else going- that is not capitalism.

This is not capitalism we are living in. This is a gross perversion of greed on the business end, and apathy on the gov end.

126 Comments

126 Comments


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[-] 4 points by WageSlave (117) 2 years ago

There was never such a thing as a free market, however. Free markets naturally gravitate toward monopolistic collusion. That is the nature of competition. Just take a look at Rockefeller's Standard Oil company. Rockefeller developed a monopoly on the oil market, not because of regulations or lack of competition, but because he grew so large it was nearly impossible to compete with.

And which version of the free market should we work toward? GDP driven economy? No GDP? What of Wall Street? If we retain GDP we rely on consumerism. Which means we continue to manipulate peoples values through marketing, accelerating consumption for economic purposes while accelerating the depletion of the planets resources. How do you prevent planned obsolescence? How do you encourage recycling instead of cheap disposal methods and landfills that waste precious resources? How do you fix the fact that war, disease, crime, pollution and environmental degradation are profitable in an unregulated market driven by consumer demands and monetary incentive? How do you keep corporations from influencing politicians (and scientists) to benefit corporate malfeasance?

The more problems you create, the more profit there is to be made.

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 2 years ago

Thanx for your thought provoking comment. Further :

  • "Capitalism and the Mad Uncle in the Attic ; Listen. Can you hear the Mad Uncle in the attic? His muffled shriekings are getting louder as the myths, deceptions and delusions we’ve been living on evaporate one by one in the face of reality.", by John Atcheson : http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article31675.htm .

e tenebris, lux ...

[-] 3 points by HempTwister (667) from Little Rock, AR 2 years ago

Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism because it is a merger of state and corporate power. - Benito Mussolini

Free Market means the Koch Boys can pollute your neighborhood and buy up every papermill and charge you $5 a roll for toilet paper. The big fish eat all the little fish until there are just a few left then competition turns to collaboration. Collaboration to fleece the fools for all they are worth. They just finished doing that. They got all our cash, then our credit, then our assets(homes). Then we crash. That is how supply side economics works.

[-] -1 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

Supply side is lowering barriers, not drowning out the competition. Ideally the gov is supposed to be on OUR side.

[-] 3 points by HempTwister (667) from Little Rock, AR 2 years ago

Supply Side means send the money to the top and let them create such awesome products that it drives demand. Voodoo economics. But they kept wages the same. So it only works until we are broke and in debt up to our ears. They got some extension of the party by using our money to gamble with. That meant that we had to bail them out to protect our bank deposits.

So the monopoly game is over. They won. Now it is time to put all the money bank in the bank and start a new game. If you look at history you will find this cycle as far back as you look. It always is and ever has been class warfare.

[-] 3 points by SparkyJP (1646) from Westminster, MD 2 years ago

It is not Capitalism - it's an extraction !! It's a Kleptocracy.

Kleptocracy, alternatively cleptocracy or kleptarchy, (from Greek: κλέπτης - kleptēs, "thief"[1] and κράτος - kratos, "power, rule",[2] hence "rule by thieves") is a form of political and government corruption where the government exists to increase the personal wealth and political power of its officials and the ruling class at the expense of the wider population, often without pretense of honest service. This type of government corruption is often achieved by the embezzlement of state funds.

Dylan Ratigan explains how and (rightfully) loses it on air

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gIcqb9hHQ3E

[-] 3 points by JadedCitizen (4277) 2 years ago

Awesome clip Sparky. Thanks for sharing.

[-] 1 points by SparkyJP (1646) from Westminster, MD 2 years ago

Glad to :)

[-] 2 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

I believe a drone crashed in Maryland the other day, did you hear anything about it?

[-] 2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

Ain't heard nothing. Why do you believe that?

[-] 0 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

MSNBC reported it.

[-] 2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

I don't think so.

[-] 1 points by SparkyJP (1646) from Westminster, MD 2 years ago

No I didn't but apparently one did. I found this:

Navy drone crashes into Chesapeake Bay: What's a drone doing in Maryland skies? (Video)

http://communities.washingtontimes.com/neighborhood/ad-lib/2012/jun/12/navy-drone-crashes-chesapeake-bay-whats-drone-doin/

[-] 2 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

test flying?

[-] 1 points by SparkyJP (1646) from Westminster, MD 2 years ago

This much is known: the unmanned drone crashed about 22 miles east of the Naval Air Station across the Bay on the Paxtuent River from where it took off. The Naval Air Station is “65 miles southeast of Washington, home of the Navy’s test pilot school, drone operations and the principal research center for aircraft and support systems.”

Add to the mystery the fact that Bloodsworth Island has been off-limits for generations since becoming a U.S. Naval Reservation.

All of which leads to even more questions: Was the drone shot down as practice? That would be expensive target practice. Did it crash accidentally? And how convenient that it just happened to crash on the Navy’s own island.

Was it on a mission? And if the latter, what kind of mission in this area?

Is this a new breed of drone that is being tested? If not, then what it is being tested for?

The more questions, the quieter the Navy becomes. The U.S. Coast Guard has now constructed a safety perimeter around the crash site to allow the Navy to fully investigate the crash scene, but local news channels did get footage of the smoldering crash site

http://communities.washingtontimes.com/neighborhood/ad-lib/2012/jun/12/navy-drone-crashes-chesapeake-bay-whats-drone-doin/

[-] 0 points by salta (-1104) 2 years ago

ask obama

[-] 3 points by Middleaged (5140) 2 years ago

Flack for Ms. Obama, 22 women protest Ms. Laura Bush getting Feminist Award. The quote is Laura Bush never did anything for women and neither has Michelle Obama.

http://washingtonexaminer.com/article/745381

“Here you have a woman who was a brilliant attorney,” Fuentes said of Michelle Obama. “She’s just published a book about how to garden.”

It’s not Bush’s political affiliation that she objects to, Fuentes insists. “It’s not partisan,” she said. “I’m not complaining that she’s a Republican. I’m complaining that she’s never done anything for women to get this award.”

Not everyone is happy to see the Sewall-Belmont House, a museum dedicated to advancing women, give its highest honor to former first lady Laura Bush....

first reported by the Washington Post. Sonia Pressman Fuentes, co-founder of the National Organization for Women, led the charge.

[-] 2 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

These "awards" only care about giving them to high profile people in order to up their own standing in the minds of the masses.

Sincerly, Obama winning the Nobel Peace Prize and then bombing 6 nations in 3 years.

[-] 1 points by Middleaged (5140) 2 years ago

Yes, agree. And you can never tell when your board will all of the sudden have a little clique that either wants to join politics or raise the visibility of the organization. (GD Politics)

In this case a couple of former board members were even protesting.

[-] 1 points by SparkyJP (1646) from Westminster, MD 2 years ago

The bombing of these nations have been planned for a while now :

General Wesley Clark Reveals 5 Year USA War Agenda From 2007 - 2012

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_1SP8C9jNE4

[-] 3 points by Middleaged (5140) 2 years ago

The 5th kind of Capitalism, #5 Data Capitalism, where you don't own any information about yourself, you have no privacy, you are forced into certain kinds of work or industry because of your data, and you don't own your DNA. Big Pharmacy owns Natures DNA and all the seeds of life on earth.

5 Data Capitalism, The holders of patents and owners of information have the means to wealth and financial leverage over all peasants.

[-] 3 points by Middleaged (5140) 2 years ago

I AGREE, someone put the kabosh on Anti-Trust Law Suits in this Country. I think there were only 3 break-up in US History. Ma Bell (AT&T) and Standard Oil (Rockefeller) are the only ones I can remember.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_antitrust_law

[-] 2 points by Fransel (3) 2 years ago

What we have now is a lot of hidden monopolies on all levels. hedge funds are a kind of monolopy, so is reclassifying investment houses as federal banks. Assigning everyone a Fico score and giving employers access that is a monoply. Capitalism is by definition the abscence of monopolies but today the media uses companies that make profits off of the use of monoplies as examples of capitalism. What's needed is agressive anti-monoply legislation with a strong litmus test for monoplies,not a facist state which stamps a Fico score on everyone's forhead.

[-] 4 points by Middleaged (5140) 2 years ago

Yeah, that is right. You are a little deeper than I can go. But seems we don't have choices any more. We always find we are stuck.

Text books are all enthnocentric trash that makes the government look like a nice guy that is always a little more progressive. But that is not true at all. People power gave blacks and women the right to vote. People power ended Vietnam. Civil Right came from People power. 1970 Labor Safety law was signed because of Ralph Nader. Most of our K-12 Text books can't even be called history books since they don't analyze beginings, ending, effects, major issues, etc.

And Media is all Monopolies. The media does no analysis, no investigation, explains no government processes, doesn't question politicians, mostly just reports what was said........@#%@

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (22333) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Sort of.

[mostly just reports what was said......]

Snippets taken out of context to support someones agenda - and that agenda is not the peoples.

[-] 2 points by Middleaged (5140) 2 years ago

A concerted Evasion comes to mind.

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (22333) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Such as?

[-] 3 points by notaneoliberal (2269) 2 years ago

Yeah. it's crony capitalism. Regulate the little guy and give the mega-corps carte blanche.

[-] 1 points by Anti385 (58) 2 years ago

You're right. AKA corporate welfare.

[-] 1 points by atki4564 (1259) from Lake Placid, FL 2 years ago

True, we will not have a strong economy if we do not have a buying public that does not have to rely on predatory lending and regulatory practices to participate in it, so we need a new constitution for new times, as follows:

We the peoples, in order to secure Freedom and Justice for All, do enact this Constitution for Strategic International Systems LLC (or SIS LLC) as summarized in the following Business Operations Forecast:

The customer value mission of SIS LLC is (1) to organize all customer-investors into 3,000 investment squad sites of 16 friends (or virtual specialties), and related internet investment legislatures of 50,000 friends (or virtual towns), requiring (2) a $20 weekly capital contribution for 1 year (or $1,000) to (3) create your investment club bank of 50,000 friends (or physical town) -- that is, having $50 million in initial assets -- which (4) due to the operation of today’s fractional banking system becomes (5) $500 million in new annual business loans (or $10,000 in new annual individual loans) from yourself as a new bank officer to yourself as a new business officer who (6) takes 75% employee business control as business officer-investors and 25% customer business control as bank officer-investors of (7) your specific 12 businesses (or investments) in your new bank investment account wherein (8) your investor voting power equals (9) your 1 of 12 levels of experience in (10) your 1 of 12 sectors in 1 of 50 industries in 1 of 200 occupations in 1 of 3,000 specialities which (11) votes-upon your purchasing (or investment) orders as (12) proposed by your employee-elected chain of command.

This means you will have 75% employee business control over your workplace as business officers and, as bank officers, 25% customer business control over all 12 investments (or businesses) in your new bank investment account. In turn, with this 100% town-level business control of your 3,000 workplaces, you can decrease your 12 customer consumption expenses by 75% for services, vehicles, education, retail, food, construction, technology, manufacturing, wholesale, health, justice, and banking expenses; that is, over your first 12 years of SIS LLC membership using a 75% more effective and efficient town design, and related 3,000 workplace designs (herein). Furthermore, while creating your new town & workplace design as described by this constitution, you will replace today’s communist big businesses, and related big governments, with your new small investment club banks, and related small businesses (or investments), as proposed, financed, and patronized by your 3,000 investment squad sites of 16 friends (or virtual specialties) in your internet investment legislature of 50,000 friends (or virtual town).

Why? First, because today’s executive business income (mostly from bank or financial asset income) is 33% of all income which is a huge amount of upper 1% income to split among yourselves as new bank officers having 25% customer business control, right? Second, because today’s executive business wealth is 42% of all wealth which is a huge amount of upper 1% wealth to split among yourselves as new business officers having 75% employee business control; that is, only after becoming new bank officers (above) first, right?

For example, this means if you earn $12/hour today, then you will earn $36/hour tomorrow after adding (1) your old wage income, plus (2) your 33% (more and new) interest income as a new bank officer, plus (3) your 42% (more and new) dividend & gain income as a new business officer. Together, these 4 sources of wealth & income from your specific 12 businesses (or investments) will double your net worth every 6-12 years (until retirement); that is, from the compound interest decline of today's upper 1% executives whom you will replace as the new bank & business investor-officers. So, with this power, let’s end today’s communist big businesses, and related big governments, okay? How? By helping to operate your own Business Operations Forecast (above) at http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/StrategicInternationalSystems/ ; so help us help you, today!

[-] 0 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

I would prefer to just allow some of the smaller decent banks to have the ability to do their thing without the penalties of the the TBTF.

[-] 1 points by atki4564 (1259) from Lake Placid, FL 2 years ago

It isn't such much a matter of going big or small bank, but who controls it -- others or you. Meaning you can a bank officer-investor controlling your own credit. For example, for every $1,000 in capital contributions you make to start a bank with others, you can loan yourself $10,000 as a bank officer to yourself as business officer. So, the question is: Who do you want in charge your credit: yourself or others?

[-] 0 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

I would prefer to have everything in my control. But I simply dont have the time to figure everything that is needed out, and definitely not enough time to keep up with it and the constant meetings with the other investors of the fund.

[-] 1 points by atki4564 (1259) from Lake Placid, FL 2 years ago

That's why you have an internet investment legislature, and related chain of command by sector, industry, occupation, and specialty, to control your investment club bank. Consequently, whatever your business specialty is, you will control the credit of that specialty with others in the same specialty -- a cooperative of specialized credit -- but you don't have to know the specialty of banking because that's yet another 1 of 3,000 specialties (or specialists). You would, however, have to know fundamental business knowledge such as basic accounting, finance, and law, in addition to your own specialty business operations (which are all common to any business operator). Consequently, you focus on the credit of your specialty -- whatever that is -- while others do the same in other specialties, but as investor-officers in cooperative relationship controlling your own investment club bank using your own internet investment legislature. You don't have to do it all. In fact, you'll do less because you will outsource more to 3,000 specialists in your internet investment legislature.

[-] 1 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

I really dont want to have to deal with people in my field who are going to be making business decision with my money.

Bring back Glass Steagall, end CDS, and prosecute the TBTF. I can live with the results that would follow, and then I could focus on my business, and not this conglomerate that you are creating that would really do me little good.

[-] 1 points by atki4564 (1259) from Lake Placid, FL 2 years ago

First, only 10% is your money, the other 90% is "credit money" only available to bank officer-investors by making a simple accounting entry; this is called the fractional reserve banking wherein bank officer-investors automatically have 10 times more financial capital, by law, than business investor-officers like yourself. Therefore, second, Is getting 10 times financial capital available yourself as both a bank & business investor-officer worth it if the only thing you have to do is divide your specialty with your competitors into ever further specialized economic "niches". If you do you wont compete with each other, but complement each other in your specialty, and thus, third, offer more effective and efficient service to your customers-investors who are also largely in your internet investment legislature because 50% of the economy is local, or 100% local depending on your specialty. This locks in the loyalty of both your customers to you and to your competitors operating in a slightly different specialty than your particular one. What's your specialty?

[-] 0 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

You are putting way too much faith in a selfish, idiot nation.

[-] 1 points by atki4564 (1259) from Lake Placid, FL 2 years ago

It isn't selfishness, but self-interest. Unless your net worth is greater than $10 million, and you are earning at least $250k a year (or usually much more), then you are not an upper 1% manager who controls 33% of all income and 42% of all wealth in your specialty, so the question is: Are you being selfish enough yourself, for the upper 1% managers of your specialty are bank & business investor-officers, but you're not. Therefore, with all due respect, you're an idiot compared to them because they already are bank & business investor-officers as upper 1% managers in your specialty, and thus putting you at a competitive disadvantage because they congress in their pocket, and therefore won't allow any of the above small business actions you want above passed to be get passed. Again, it's a matter of who is in control; all 100% of your specialty or just the upper 1% managers of your specialty? So again, what's your specialty?

[-] -1 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

Again, you are puttin way too much faith in a selfish public to work together.

I dont have a specialty.

[-] 2 points by atki4564 (1259) from Lake Placid, FL 2 years ago

If you don't have specialty, then you're net worth must be low, for you have no "niche" (or perhaps you are lying for some strange reason). As for the public, the customer is king, so first, speak with more respect about "the public", for the above type of negative comment about your customers and competitors can bite back in ways you might not expect, so the question is: Would you make the same comment above to your customer, or to a competitor, face-to-face? No, you'd only say such a thing on the internet where you think you can rant without consequence, but that's not necessarily true. Furthermore, the public works together all the time. It's called business. There are 8 million workplaces in this country and they all "work together", so your repetition is not just invalid, but in denial of obvious facts. Peace is the absence of emotion and presence of facts, so please stick to the facts. As such, you likely have some other deeper, more specific, fear that just "the public". What is it?

[-] 0 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

You think I dont tell customers and competitors alike that this nation is full of idiots? They know, they watch tv.

Business in this country is usually a top down structure, so including the 8 million of em in this as proof that it would work is not accurate.

I do applaud you for putting hte time into creating this concept, assuming it is your own. Its more than most people are willing ot do. At least you can say you not only dont like the current banking system, but have created an alternative.

Im just stating that I accept that banks have always been run by criminals. I just wish the gov didnt have to side with them quite so much.

Im certainly not going to take 3000 ordinary people in this country and start framing my entire financial existence around the faith that they have a clue as to what they are doing.

[-] 1 points by atki4564 (1259) from Lake Placid, FL 2 years ago

The rights of the individual are controlled by the collective, so you must focus on controlling the rights of the collective first, as measured by banking and business, and then equally so, on the rights of the individual second, as measured by the above cooperative actions to control money as bank and business investor-officers yourselves. Does a cop control the criminal (or today's big banks and big businesses, and related upper 1% managers of your specialty) without mirroring the actions of the criminal step-by-step? No, the cop mirrors the criminal, step-by-step, and thus collectively empowers yourselves as individuals to make the same pursuit of happiness, for there is always more than one cop when engaging a criminal, right?

[-] 1 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

Im not intersted, but good luck in the future.

[-] 1 points by zoom6000 (430) from St Petersburg, FL 2 years ago

You really think germany bailling out greece?Or the money coming from USA?

[-] 1 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

I know that we have buying a shit ton of ECB bonds, so I guess a decent amount is traceable back to us.

[-] 1 points by zoom6000 (430) from St Petersburg, FL 2 years ago

In return is to keep right wing party in the greece goverment,and no interst on the baill out money

[-] 1 points by Middleaged (5140) 2 years ago

Wow, Roberto Unger Video Speaks with Authority to what we are discussing here. The Economic Crisis and the Failing Recovery (1/2). Roberto Mangabeira Unger

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bW420TvuR-M&feature=relmfu

There were a couple of points I'm not sure I am with him on. He said something like WWII pulled us out of Recession/Depression. That is if I heard him right and have not pulled it out of context.... Kind of video I have to replay.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

we were out of the recession by WW2

we actually went into the greatest debt vrs GNP during WW2

the loaners who ever they are made interest

[-] 1 points by Middleaged (5140) 2 years ago

I researched that last week with links. It seems we went back into recession like in 1936 due to Banking act of 1935 which tightened up loose or cheap loans. They say we were out of Depression/Recession for sure by the time we were well into production for the War in 1940-41.

But they credit floating the Dollar in 1933 and some other policies for bring us out of recession. Lower Interest Rates, Jobs, The New Deal, loose money policy, etc.

[-] 1 points by JoeTheFarmer (2654) 2 years ago

It makes sense that we were borrowing during the war. Every factory in america was converted to produce items for the war effort. So not only is the government selling war bonds to spend tons of money to buy weapons, vehicles, ships, and planes, very few of the factories are producing commercial products that can be consumed or exported. Unless you consider dropping bombs exporting them.

If you really like data check out this site. http://www.supportingevidence.com/Government/Government_landing.html

[-] 1 points by Middleaged (5140) 2 years ago

Part 2 of Roberto Unger is putting me to sleep, but 4 minutes into it he is talking about improving the Education in the USA. #1 Reshaping the relationship of Finance to Production, Sweeping aside our Regulatory Dualism, tighten the link of finance to the real economy (not to the stock market and financial activities that do nothing for the economy or the people). He has 3 tools he talks about.

[-] 2 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

tighten the link of finance to the real economy

Gross domestic product (GDP) refers to the market value of all officially recognized final goods and services produced within a country in a given period. GDP per capita is often considered an indicator of a country's standard of living;[2][3] GDP per capita is not a measure of personal income. See Standard of living and GDP. Under economic theory, GDP per capita exactly equals the gross domestic income (GDI) per capita. See Gross domestic income.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gross_domestic_product]

this concerns me because GDP is not a measure of products and services exchange

as income can be gained though trade and interests of merely money notes

[-] 3 points by Middleaged (5140) 2 years ago

Exactly, GDP produced by shufting money or paper around distorts the US statistics for GDP. It really requires us to recalculate a modified GDP by our selves and for our own enterprises (of which I have none).

[-] 2 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

I've heard economist cite this issue before

[-] 1 points by Middleaged (5140) 2 years ago

But Roberto rips into Obama and the GOP's lack of planning for the Economy and Response to the Crisis. He was one of Obama's Law Professors and has a video that is pretty critical of Washington DC Politics and both parties.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

I don't know why the two major parties choose no agenda

perhaps. they felt the could not get away with anything

.

Roberto who?

either way, Harvard already won presidency

[-] 1 points by SparkyJP (1646) from Westminster, MD 2 years ago
[-] 2 points by Middleaged (5140) 2 years ago

Good Dylan discussion. The Balance Sheet is normally what we use to see if we are losing money or creating wealth (value). But the GDP only tells us if revenue is the same or growing. His Guest, Umair Haque, points out that the US really was it's wealthiest about 1970 and since declined. (thinking: Inflation, lower job wages, less meaningful work, less purchasing power, higher home prices, less work that is a career where you can grow, real unemployment rates, poverty rates)

I agree with the 18% unemployment rate that Dylan is quoting. The U6 official unemployment is over 16% and figure if full time jobs were out there 25-30 Million additional people would work.

[-] 2 points by SparkyJP (1646) from Westminster, MD 2 years ago

To my understanding, GDP measures money movement and doesn't discriminate between assets and liabilities. It measures both. An example would be in someones personal GDP. If an individual MAKES $100,000, their GDP would go up by X amount. If that same person BOUGHT 10 houses, at $100,000, their GDP would go up 10X. If they did both, their GDP would go up 11X. So it doesn't matter which side of the ledger book it's on, GDP adds all money movement together, and it doesn't reflect the real economic health of that individual.

As to the unemployment number, it also is skewed. When you adjust for the seasons of the year, make adjustments for the number of people "they say" are looking for work, make large adjustments for errors reported from month to month, the final number is meaningless except to project a number that is palatable to the American people and to say "See, it's not as bad as it feels", when in reality it's worse. It also allows them to falsely keep the markets propped up. Not many stock buyers with a 16 - 18% unemployment rate.

BTW - If you like Dylan, you may identify with this clip:

Dylan Ratigan (rightfully) loses it on air

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gIcqb9hHQ3E

[-] 3 points by DKAtoday (22333) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Good Rant - We need to see more of the same in every corner of our society.

[-] 1 points by SparkyJP (1646) from Westminster, MD 2 years ago

We do indeed. Rants like his help educate us on HOW we're getting screwed, which is the first step in repairing the problem is by identifying it.

I think the next step is a constitutional amendment to Get Money Out of politics.

http://getmoneyout.com/

Cheers

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (22333) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Movement to Amend is making good progress - removing corporate personhood - and this I see as key to getting money out of politics.

We make progress. {:-])

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (22333) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Your link is not working.

[-] 1 points by SparkyJP (1646) from Westminster, MD 2 years ago

I just tried it and it worked on this end. I dunno?

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (22333) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

weird I tried it again just now and got the same message as before - server not found.

[-] 2 points by Middleaged (5140) 2 years ago

Yes, you are on the right track and have made some good distictions that I wouldn't have thought of.

Shadow Statistics by John Williams is almost a one stop for Economic Thumbnails (but guess I need a subscrition to get all the data/info). It is mostly government data, but he presents it more clearly. You can see explainations for all the different types of Unemployment Data.

http://www.shadowstats.com/

Looks like unemployment is 22.5% (alternate Data)
Looks like Inflation is 5% (alternate Data)
Looks like GDP is - 2% (alternate Data)
Looks like Dollar Value is below 50% of 1985

BLS Employment Definitions
U1:[47] Percentage of labor force unemployed 15 weeks or longer.
U2: Percentage of labor force who lost jobs or completed temporary work.
U3: Official unemployment rate per the ILO definition occurs when people are without jobs and they have actively looked for work within the past four weeks.[1]
U4: U3 + "discouraged workers", or those who have stopped looking for work because current economic conditions make them believe that no work is available for them.
U5: U4 + other "marginally attached workers", or "loosely attached workers", or those who "would like" and are able to work, but have not looked for work recently.
U6: U5 + Part time workers who want to work full time, but cannot due to economic reasons (underemployment).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unemployment#United_States_Bureau_of_Labor_Statistics

GDP per capita is often considered an indicator of a country's standard of living;
GDP is the Value of final goods and services produced for a period.
The raw GDP figure as given by the equations above is called the Nominal, or Historical, or Current, GDP. When comparing GDP figures from one year to another, it is desirable to compensate for changes in the value of money .

So I guess when we look at GDP we have to consider inflation of prices.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gross_domestic_product#Nominal_GDP_and_adjustments_to_GDP

Austrian School economist Frank Shostak: The GDP framework cannot tell us whether final goods and services that were produced during a particular period of time are a reflection of real wealth expansion, or a reflection of capital consumption.

Really Transparency is still a problem for me in Government Data. I'm not sure how much money the FED has lent out to Global banks, and don't know how much assets (bad paper) that the FED has taken in from bad mortgages or bad banks.

Also I don't think Tax Accountants, Tax Lawyers, Accountants, Auditors, Bankers, Lobbyist produce any benefit for GDP. But we also have Salesmen, Teachers, Fire Fighters, Police, Government workers, that don't produce part of any "Core" GDP.

In fact what would be e "Core" GDP? Utility companies, Energy, manfacturing, Restarants, bars, Hotels, massage, Medicine, groceries, all textiles or hard products that can be sold......etc.

[-] 1 points by SparkyJP (1646) from Westminster, MD 2 years ago

Thanx for the data. As stated in your post, real transparency is a problem in government data. It appears they like to keep info in the grey area.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

GDP should not count transactions where no goods or services are exchanged

[-] 2 points by SparkyJP (1646) from Westminster, MD 2 years ago

It does count transactions where goods and services are exchanged. What it doesn't count is whether those exchanges were income or expenses. It measures money flow, regardless if it's money in or money out. BOTH add to the GDP, which could be deceptive.

Cheers

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

I could sell something, buy it back and lots if money would be exchanged

[-] 3 points by SparkyJP (1646) from Westminster, MD 2 years ago

Right and your personal GDP would rise ............ but are you any better off?

That's my point. It's potentially a misleading indicator.

[-] 1 points by Middleaged (5140) 2 years ago

4.State-Welfare Capitalism - seems to be only half true. Remember the Federal Reserve was created on Jekyll Island in 1910 and adopted in 1913 by the TBTF New York Banks. At that Time culture had a term 'Money Trust' which held that TBTF Banks owned almost everything and had too much power. Since that time obviously culture forgot or hide the knowledge and danger of 'Banking Cartels'. So the State-Welfare Capitalism term reflects ignorance of the true corruption and power behind the scene of Financial Manipulators.

4) BMIC Capitalism is better. Banking Military Industrial Complex Capitalism (see Smedley Butler in Wiki and the Banana Wars).

Alernative two for State-Welfare Capitalism:

4) Financial Systems Empire Capitalism. In which relationships between industry and government regulators is so close we end up with 'Regulatory Capture', 'Revovling Door to Industry', 'Cronyism', 'Military Exapansionism' to secure oil, natural resources, and for security of corporate production as in the Banana Wars, 'finacial links' so numerous that all banks face significant risk in the event of bank defaults across the globe, 'systemic risk' in that there are persistant hidden parts of the financial apparatus and the many finacial systems continue to grow in number and width, and finally we have a system where we don't know our own history or remember the corruption that money causes in all histories of all nations.

Western Banks 'Reaping Billions from Colombian Cocaine Trade'

While cocaine production ravages countries in Central America, consumers in the US and Europe are helping developed economies grow rich from the profits, a study claims

By Ed Vulliamy, June 05, 2012

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article31509.htm (whole article)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jekyll_Island#Planning_of_the_Federal_Reserve_System

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banana_Wars

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smedley_Butler

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_is_a_Racket

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_Plot (also known as the Plot Against FDR, the White House Putsch) was an alleged political conspiracy in 1933.

[-] 2 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

hmmmm...

I do like Smedley Butler.

[-] 2 points by Middleaged (5140) 2 years ago

John B. Wells is on the Radio talking to a pretty smart guy, John Casti. He is talking about extreme events and how mankind keeps making things more complex, bigger, more risky, out of control, and ultimately overstretched till we colapse the system like the end of the USSR.

http://www.coasttocoastam.com/ It just dovetails into the fact that they Capitalist System that we have has become too complex and too risky.

[-] 1 points by Middleaged (5140) 2 years ago

I'm just making this stuff up. But Crony Capitalism is pretty close too.

[-] 1 points by TrevorMnemonic (5827) 2 years ago

Awesome post!

Garage sales are technically illegal.

[-] 1 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

So is selling fresh fruit and vegatables to people!!

[-] 1 points by TrevorMnemonic (5827) 2 years ago

Don't even get me started on the mota.

Even though just about every president has smoked weed and the founding fathers grew hemp... they still fill the prisons with black people for selling weed. I'd say they fill the prisons with white people for selling weed, but the difference in numbers is astronomical.

[-] 1 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

No system operates failry for an apathetic public.

[-] 1 points by geo (2638) from Concord, NC 2 years ago

Amen.

[-] 0 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

Many cannot comprehend that a system we live in is not a l vs r thing, or a lib vs con thing....

Which shows how easily they get away with these crimes...

[-] 0 points by john23 (-272) 2 years ago

you forgot

"when the government forces specific interest rates on the entire population which require continuous printing of money - that is not capitalism"

[-] 0 points by luparb (290) 2 years ago

please open a dictionary and read the definition of capitalism. Go to dictionary.com, mirriam-webster, wikipedia or any dictionary and read the definition.

Capitalism is defined as the private ownership and control of the means of production for profit.

Now, take a look around America, Australia, Canada, England, China - what you'll find is that the means of production are privately owned and controlled for profit.

You can re-define capitalism to whatever you like, it doesn't really bother me. But if we are using the ACTUAL definitions, I'm sorry, but America is capitalist, just like most of the world.

[-] 0 points by JadedCitizen (4277) 2 years ago

Capitalism' is generally considered to be an economic system that is based on private ownership of the means of production and the creation of goods or services for profit by privately-owned business enterprises. Some have also used the term as a synonym for competitive markets, wage labor, capital accumulation, voluntary exchange, personal finance and greed.[1][2][3] The designation is applied to a variety of historical cases, varying in time, geography, politics, and culture.[4] There are multiple variants of capitalism, including laissez-faire, mixed economies, and state capitalism.~wiki

The problem we are experiencing is Capitalism. But what form is this?

[-] 1 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

Mutinationals and huge lobbying industries partnering with government, which is paid by the tax payer, is not in line with private ownership.

[-] 0 points by JadedCitizen (4277) 2 years ago

Barry and Shaw's Five types of Capitalism

  1. Mercantile Capitalism. Profit, a novel concept promoted by Hans Fugger (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fugger) about 1370, becomes an aim in itself. State aims to export goods and block imports in order to accumulate gold and promote national power.

  2. Industrial Capitalism. During and after the Civil War. Mass production. Era of the Robber Barons (also called Captains of Industry) follows. Vaderbuilt, Cyrus McCormick, Carnegie.

  3. Financial Capitalism. Large corporations form, reducing prices and absorbing competition, using pools, trusts, and holding companies.

  4. State-Welfare Capitalism. Invented after the great depression. State regulates economic activities in order to smooth out boom/bust cycles of unrestricted capitalism, and state provides social safety nets for workers.

  5. ????

Not trying to pick a fight, just pointing out that Capitalism is a word that encompasses a lot of meaning. Capitalism morphs as new ideas and technologies become available.

[-] 2 points by Middleaged (5140) 2 years ago

Thanks for the post. See my alternative view of #4 and my speculation of #5 above. Not sure why I posted there instead of here...

[-] 0 points by JadedCitizen (4277) 2 years ago

Information is certainly a key factor

[-] 1 points by SparkyJP (1646) from Westminster, MD 2 years ago

In our case, Capitalism has morphed into kleptocracy.

Kleptocracy, alternatively cleptocracy or kleptarchy, (from Greek: κλέπτης - kleptēs, "thief"[1] and κράτος - kratos, "power, rule",[2] hence "rule by thieves") is a form of political and government corruption where the government exists to increase the personal wealth and political power of its officials and the ruling class at the expense of the wider population, often without pretense of honest service. This type of government corruption is often achieved by the embezzlement of state funds.

[-] 1 points by JadedCitizen (4277) 2 years ago

That perfectly describes the current situation. But is it a blip in history, or perhaps even a catalyst to bring about a new economic order.

[-] 2 points by SparkyJP (1646) from Westminster, MD 2 years ago

Or perhaps a NWO. At this point it could go either way .... and I think it's why most of us are here. It's a matter if we allow the thieves to continue robbing us ; or whether we take a stand and declare ENOUGH. Cheers ;(

“The amount of tyranny you get, is the exact amount you put up with.” - TJ

[-] 1 points by JadedCitizen (4277) 2 years ago

I agree 1000%. I would add - raising awareness to the true face of the enemy is important, else people, though good intentioned, may be duped into inadvertently helping the thieves stay in power.

[-] 2 points by SparkyJP (1646) from Westminster, MD 2 years ago

Excellent point !! It isn't hard to be duped because of the evolution and science of marketing, so we must verify BEFORE we trust. Very, very good point !! Kudos

[-] 1 points by JadedCitizen (4277) 2 years ago

I would add if a tv pundit, a politician, or common blogster - any of them - recommends you to do something (like vote, support, or, god forbid, trust them). Take it like your doctor just recommended for you to have a highly complicated surgery with high risks involved, and get several different opinions before going under the knife.

[-] 0 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

"Not trying to pick a fight"...haha, dont worry, I enjoy the dialogue on here.

At what point does it morph into something different?

I guess in his def we would be in number 4 right now.

[-] 0 points by JadedCitizen (4277) 2 years ago

I think the trend from No. 4 changed with Ronald Reagan. Also to put it another way, who is running our country, the communists, the socialists, or the capitalists? To me, it is obvious this country is run by capitalists, and this is a form of capitalism, albeit an ugly, perverse form. As Sun Tzu said, 'If ignorant of both yourself and your enemy, you are certain to be in peril." I think this is why we are in peril, because over time we lost our fear of capitalists (like middleaged noted, we forgot our fear of banking cartels), and became fixated on the perils of big brother government and the nanny state, and while we were complacently allowing them to unshackle the controls of government, the capitalists gained enough power to take over the government and are now using it to further their power even more. It appears we are in the process of morphing into a new capitalism, and I fear the direction we are heading.

[-] 3 points by Middleaged (5140) 2 years ago

You could be right about Reagan starting a change in direction. I think Coporations and Wealthy put the Kabash on Anti-Trust Law and forsaw the problem with Rising US Union Benefits, wages and Power. So I'm guessing 1970 we got 'neoliberal economics' and many strategies came forward to off shore, out source, automate, and finally robotics as a way to reduce the cost of labor for businesses.

[-] 4 points by geo (2638) from Concord, NC 2 years ago

Milton Freidman and the Chicago school of economics took over during this time frame. He became the economic adviser to Nixon I think. Nixon opened the doors to China in 1970, created a fiat currency in 1971.

The early 70's were in economic turmoil, stagflation, which somehow got blamed on Carter, but was a direct result of Nixon. Then came Ronnie Raygunz and his neo-liberal policies that destroyed this country.

[-] 2 points by Middleaged (5140) 2 years ago

That is a new point for me, that Nixon caused economic turmoil, stagflation. I wasn't sure the start of effects or the cause of effects. I'll have to do some reading...

[-] 2 points by geo (2638) from Concord, NC 2 years ago

The costs of Vietnam- and the mass of soldiers coming home to no jobs at the end of the war, changing our currency (closing the gold window.... his famous line "We are all Keynesians now!"), and in '73 the oil cartels closed the tap on us increasing energy costs by $1 per gallon.... all led to the economic turmoil.

[-] 0 points by JadedCitizen (4277) 2 years ago

Chris Hayes noted something along these lines -- what used to be the "American Dream" of a owning a house, having a good paying job, and raising a family changed during the Reagen era into "You too can be rich"

[-] -1 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

I would say the top 1% and the bottom 10% are about as socialist as it gets.

The rest of us get our asses taxes off.

[-] 0 points by JadedCitizen (4277) 2 years ago

I take it your part of the TEA party crowd then. They don't know the enemy either and actually are useful idiots in enabling the capitalists to empire build.

http://www.marxist.com/monopoly-capitalism.htm

[-] 0 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

Why would you assume Im part of the Tea crowd.

Because I look at how much money the gov is taking from me and how shitty of a job they are doing?

They are very correct in their analysis of a debt crisis. It is currently consuming Europe and will make its grand stand here.

[-] 2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

Deficit/debt alarmists are just completing the right wing strategy of running up the debt with wealthy tax cuts and military/war spending (their constituents) and claiming we have to cut all the programs that help the middle/working class (left wing constituents). Don't believe the hype. The only solution to deficit/debt problems is to help the middle class with job creation (public and private), working class debt forgiveness (to recreate the ridiculous consumer economy America has perfected.) and cut military/war spending, while raising wealthy tax rates.

[-] 1 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

This is not alarmist talk. This is real talk. Regardless of how it has come about, the debt is nearing the collapsing point. Greece is only the beginning.

There does need to be some cuts. But without addressing the current unfairness of the multinationals, it is just punishing the rest of society.

Debt fogiveness for the working class? What do you mean by that?

They arent planning on cutting military spending or redoing the tax codes anytime soon, so I would start preparing yourself for what is going to be the worst economy the US has seen in a very long time.

In the Great Depression, we were able to handle rought times, everything was more local. Now its all dependent on corporations moving goods. Throw in the fact that people have no respect for one another, and you have a royal mess coming down the pipes.

[-] 2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

Yeah. It's gonna be ugly. but the 1% will be fine I suppose they'll all move to their islands in Qatar. Debt forgiveness for the working class means: get the criminal banks to forgive credit card/student loan/ even some mtg debt from the struggling victims of the economic collapse that the 1% bankers created. Call it punishment, justice, stimulus, equity. Whatever you wanna call it it will get the ridiculous American consumer economy going again. That is the only thing that will create eco growth, demand and force the 1% supposed "job creators" to hire people. more hires equal more growth. reward onshoring, penalize offshoring. that is the only solution to the alarmistdeficit/debt problem. oh and cap cr card interest @ 10% higher than that is unfair to the 99%.

[-] -2 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

Perhaps the fact that we were a "consumer" economy, a service economy, and not a producing economy has a lot to do with what is going on?

[-] 3 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

I wish I knew the best "kind of economy" we should have. but I know that growth will come back if we implement the suggestions above. Certainly they mean recreating a producing economy. But Americans will and do buy anything. That is not actually good for other reasons. But befoore I support cutting the programs that benefit the 99% I will support the consumer economy, and cutting military spending, and raising wealthy taxes.

[-] 1 points by JadedCitizen (4277) 2 years ago

You stated you were getting your ass taxed off and that is the platform of the Taxed Enough Already crowd. You also implied the 1% are socialists, which is false. Your original complaint is that this is not Capitalism. I am pointing out this unfairness you complain about is being done by Capitalists. Did you even read the link?

[-] 0 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

The 1% get all the subsidies, get the bailouts, get the massive tax hideouts, and we get stuck with the bill. I would call that pretty socialistic. They claim to no like socialism, but they subsidise their tax burdens onto us, along with their losses.

If you dont think the middle class is being over taxed, Im not sure what state you live in.

[-] 2 points by JadedCitizen (4277) 2 years ago

I live in Texas. I used to lean toward conservatism, but was not very politically active. I grew up with an inherent bias against communism and socialism. When I came here it was to learn what the hell was going on. I had questions about 9/11 and how other countries really see us. I had questions about the bank bailouts and why it happened. I am in my early 40's and have adopted two quotes to help remind me to keep an open mind when presented with new information.

  1. Anyone who conducts an argument by appealing to authority is not using his intelligence; he is just using his memory.~Leonardo da Vinci

  2. "The recipe for perpetual ignorance is: be satisfied with your opinions and content with your knowledge."~Elbert Hubbard

Socialism definition - a political and economic theory of social organization that advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole

As you can see, by definition, we are not living in a socialist nation. Capital is still in private hands, not the common whole. The problem is capital is concentrated into fewer hands these days. Whatever form of economical controls the 1% are using to achieve this does not change that fact.

Now, did you even read the link?

[-] 0 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

Yes, I read the link. I never stated that we are living in a socialist nation, its obviously not the case, not sure where you got that from. I was stating that the top 1% gets to socialize all the losses, and hoard their profits.

[-] 1 points by JadedCitizen (4277) 2 years ago

Your quote, "I would say the top 1% and the bottom 10% are about as socialist as it gets."

By definition, the 1% are Capitalist, not Socialist. Socialism is not handouts, unless you blindly buy into the authority of conservative propaganda. Welfare has been re-defined by conservatives in this way - governmental provision of economic assistance to persons in need; "she lives on welfare".

The more accurate definition of welfare as associated with socialism is this - benefit: something that aids or promotes well-being; "for the benefit of all". When welfare is viewed as intended, it shows the Capitalist 1% are light-years away from doing anything remotely close to acting like socialists and promoting welfare.

[-] 0 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

Dodging the question of whether you would be wiling to go through some really tough times for a brighter future for our kids...

[-] 0 points by JadedCitizen (4277) 2 years ago

Sick of arguing with somebody who twists definitions of words and sounds like a Rush Limbaugh shill.

[-] 0 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

Do you know what a bank run is? Because I dont think you understand what REALLY goes on in a bank run.

Bank runs are the result of a few controlling the masses. But you like that, dont you.

Would you not be willing to go through some pain in order to maintain a decent future for our kids?

Iceland says shame on you. I say it is typical of a media-driven public.

[-] 0 points by JadedCitizen (4277) 2 years ago

bank run - the concerted action of depositors who try to withdraw their money from a bank because they think it will fail.

You have a warped vocabulary. Bank runs are the result of fear -- fear of losing all their money when the banks fail. Do you even know what a dictionary is? Come back and we will have another chat after you take a few vocabulary lessons.

[-] 0 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

Handouts are not the same thing as charity. There is a huge difference between you DECIDING to give someone down the street something, vs me coming and clipping your paycheck whether you want to or not and then giving them the money, while keeping some for myself.

I have no idea what a fair way to redistribute wealth is, because in a nation of 300m you have a wide variety of opinions, so there is not blanket solution. I think the best way is to A) redo the entire tax code so the top doesnt get off scott free, and B) let the people decide in their states how they want to divided up the income.

Im sorry to hear that you believed the bankers when they cried disaster. I think the lack of action since then, against them, should be all the proof you need.

You realize all the stuff is insured, right?

[-] 0 points by JadedCitizen (4277) 2 years ago

"Handouts are not the same thing as charity. There is a huge difference between you DECIDING to give someone down the street something, vs me coming and clipping your paycheck whether you want to or not and then giving them the money, while keeping some for myself."

hand·out /ˈhandˌout/Noun: Something given free to a needy person or organization.

charity/ˈCHaritē/Noun: The voluntary giving of help, typically money, to those in need.

I don't see a difference. Do you? Please stop believing the misuse of words thrown around by the republicans. A dictionary is far more fair and balanced.

"I have no idea what a fair way to redistribute wealth is, because in a nation of 300m you have a wide variety of opinions, so there is not blanket solution. I think the best way is to A) redo the entire tax code so the top doesnt get off scott free, and B) let the people decide in their states how they want to divided up the income."

I do understand what the term fair means, and I would advocate for a federal level progressive tax solution.

"I'm sorry to hear that you believed the bankers when they cried disaster. I think the lack of action since then, against them, should be all the proof you need. You realize all the stuff is insured, right?"

You realize what a bank run is don't you.

[-] 0 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

Then how would you describe handouts and bailouts. I think it lines up with straight redistribution of the tax payers money than it does a capitalistic principle, correct?

[-] 2 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

if one wants to

trust the dollar

trust demand for needs and desires,

money needs to be redistributed back to the hands of the populous

so entrepreneurs can better serve the people

.

[-] 0 points by JadedCitizen (4277) 2 years ago

Handouts are the same thing as charity. Bailouts were done in the interest of the benefit of all - to avoid a great depression, only there has been a failure to bring criminal consequences for fraudulent banking practices after the initial crisis was over, and to make adequate changes so the crisis will not occur again.

What is a fair way to distribute wealth among the populace? How would you do it?

[-] -1 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

Want to know why the nation is in shambles?

Go the mall and the grocery store and tell me people have a freaking clue as to what is going on, or who they are voting for....