Welcome login | signup
Language en es fr
OccupyForum

Forum Post: There is no difference between R & D

Posted 2 years ago on July 27, 2012, 3:32 p.m. EST by bensdad (8977)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

or is $6,000,000,000,000 for the middle class - a diiference?


House GOP’s Cuts to Social Security Cost Taxpayers Almost $6 Billion
By Travis Waldron

A House Republican plan to slash funding for a Social Security program would cost taxpayers far more than it would save, according to a letter from Social Security’s chief actuary. The Republican plan, which is focused on a program meant to ensure that beneficiaries are not overpaid, would cut more than $800 million below the level agreed to in the Budget Control Act, the spending agreement passed during last year’s debt limit negotiations.

According to Social Security chief actuary Stephen Goss, however, the cuts will cost taxpayers between $5 billion and $6 billion, Talking Points Memo reports:

In a Thursday letter responding to inquiring House Democrats, Social Security’s chief actuary Stephen C. Goss concludes that cuts will cost taxpayers “between $5 billion and $6 billion more over the lifetime of those who would not be reassessed due to the reduced funding.”

The cut would hamper the highly-effective program that roots out waste, fraud, and abuse in Social Security — according to Goss, such reviews produce between $6 and $9 in regained savings per dollar spent. While the analysis only covered the impact on the program this year, future cuts would likely have a similar impact on the program.
House leadership isn’t likely to give the Labor, Health, and Education appropriations package that contains the cuts a vote before the full House, but the plan keeps up the GOP’s disturbing trend of targeting social safety net programs that largely benefit the lower- and middle-classes.


or is $6,000,000,000,000 for the middle class - a diiference?

83 Comments

83 Comments


Read the Rules
[-] 6 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 2 years ago

Occupy is not about partisan politics. Why do you continue to pollute the forum with it?

[-] 2 points by freakyfriday (179) 2 years ago

Here, here!!! Bensdad must be getting paid by the thread from the DNC!

[Removed]

[-] 3 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 2 years ago

I know of at least one person who is not a conservative who keeps throwing shit into the fan here. The walls here are covered a foot thick in the more partisan areas. When people visit our forum they leave in disgust after a short time because garbage is strewn about from the dozens of trolls and those who fight them. And now our own members descend to the level of trolls, by bringing up subjects that have no business here, reducing the forum from one of purpose to one of no purpose.

[Removed]

[-] 5 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 2 years ago

Try focusing your posts on Occupy related topics only and watch the trolls and bots come back. They attack our strength when our ideas are focused, not our weakness when they are unfocused.

[Removed]

[Removed]

[Removed]

[-] -3 points by vvv0729 (-189) 2 years ago

Debating a lunatic like Zendog is a waste of time:

http://zendogblog.net/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AuctdBycnSo

[-] 0 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 2 years ago

The seeds of truth planted will eventually sprout if there is any good soil left in his heavily indoctrinated brain. I am patient and hopeful.

[-] -2 points by bensdad (8977) 2 years ago

not partisan - you decide

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (28063) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Money out of politics - another step in the right direction?

From The Daily Kos:

Not long ago we started a petition asking Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid to introduce legislation requiring corporations to get permission from shareholders in order to use company resources for political purposes. Six weeks and 88,000 signatures later, I have some fantastic news.

Twelve U.S. senators have become co-sponsors of The Shareholder Protection Act, legislation which accomplishes exactly what our petition demands. Now we are working with our partners at Public Citizen to continue building momentum by encouraging even more senators to become co-sponsors.

Please join with Daily Kos and Public Citizen by sending an email to your senators, asking them to co-sponsor the Shareholder Protection Act.

In the post-Citizens United world, we've seen what unlimited, unregulated corporate cash can do to our elections. Requiring corporate CEOs and executives to receive permission from shareholders in order to use company resources for political purposes is a key step in bringing accountability to the process.

Also, it's only fair. Now that the Supreme Court has ruled that public sector unions must receive opt-in permission from some non-members in order to spend money for political purposes, at the very least corporations should be required to get permission from their own shareholders in order to do the same.

Keep the momentum going. Please join with Daily Kos and Public Citizen by sending an email to your senators, asking them to co-sponsor the Shareholder Protection Act.

Keep fighting,

Markos Moulitsas

Publisher, Daily Kos


BTW - what I added to the letter that I signed/sent:

If it is not on the Shareholder Protection Act already - Then there should be a place on shareholder requests from corpoRATions asking for spending permission a place where the share holder can designate where they want support money to go ( Dem, Rep, Ind, Green etc.).

All in all I think it would be best if money was taken completely out of the political process.

[Removed]

[-] -1 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

End the Wars.

[-] -1 points by bensdad (8977) 2 years ago

Last time I checked, Obama ended at least one war.

[-] 8 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

15k contractors and mercanaries is not ending anything.

And he started another on in Libya, which is in total chaos now.

Throw in masive bombings in Yemen and Pakistand, and its not even close to why we voted for him.

[-] 0 points by john23 (-272) 2 years ago

Exactly...for a long list of how he's not even close to anti-war here's a good website that covers it:

http://stpeteforpeace.org/obama.html

VQkag2....this doesn't mean i don't think the republicans do the same thing....they do...but wake up man...your living in a dream world if you think that Obama is any different on these wars than Bush was.

[+] -6 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

No more war in Libya. Nor Iraq. All over. Bombings in Yemen & pakistan are not massive. Limited and targeted with the host countries approval.

You exaggerate because you are anti Dem partisan republican?

[-] 5 points by TrevorMnemonic (5827) 2 years ago

The city of Sirte, the home of over 100,000 people, was completely destroyed... leaving people without jobs, without medical care, and without food... causing death, famine, and disease from injuries... for those that weren't killed in the bombings.

You dismiss the wars because of your blind love for democrats.... let's not forget that mainstream repubs don't give a shit when Obama bombs countries because they love bombing countries. They even hatched a plan of 7 countries to go after and since taking office Obama has pursued all of them with bombings or sanctions.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8ElKqnVRS8

Being anti-war is not a message from the GOP. Being anti-war is a message of the men and women who advocate peace. The GOP is a massive part of the problem.

Bombing foreign countries is not peace. You can not simultaneously prepare for war and peace.

[-] -2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

And you are surprised that people die in war?

Whats you point.? Pres Obama is responsible? Please. The people of Libya battled the oppresive govt of Khadafi. They won with our help. What kinda magic should we employ that might have acheived the ouster of that dictator without death?

The people choose to sacrifice their lives to change their govt. We aren't responsible for the outcome.

That is unfair to Blame Pres Obama. We did the right thing? We should do it anywhere we can. You're not makin sense.

You are clearly partisan anti democrat. Libya was handled 1000 times better than your boy Bush handled Iraq, and Afghan.

[-] 2 points by TrevorMnemonic (5827) 2 years ago

To answer your first question

THAT IS WHY I OPPOSE WAR

My point is I'm sick of warmonger presidents.

Also more people died from NATO in 2011 than from Gaddafi and the "rebel" takeover....so how was the problem solved? The problem was that innocent people were being killed. That problem has not been solved. Maybe you haven't seen the videos of the rebels rounding up black Africans and putting them in cages.

Doing the right thing would have been ending the Bush war legacy within 2 years or less. Doing the right thing did not include branching out the bombs into more foreign countries.

You are clearly an idiot if you continue to believe I voted for Bush. I did not ever support Bush. Bush killed 1 million people and counting. But that is no excuse for the war crimes Obama has committed.

Both of these men should be in prison for murder. Even the ACLU thinks both of these men have committed war crimes.

[-] 1 points by Odin (583) 2 years ago

This guy is here for one reason, and it is not to see this movement succeed.

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

Your numbers are all wrong. Sorry. We should absolutely support any resistence to dictators. The mission in Libya was a tremendous success. We helped the people oust a dictator who has been responsible for more killing by 100fold than anything that occured in the few months we were involved in helping in the liberation of the Libyan people.

What moron thought there would not be problems after Khadafi was correctly ousted? C'mon, you just can't believe Pres Obama (a Dem) handled a military action light years better than the inept, corrupt, repubs.

Libya= Successful use of American military, UN, Arab league, Euro.

More like that. Limited, coalition, minimal death. Less like Repub Iran/Afghan massive, expensive, dishonest, coalition of the paid off.

Repubs ARE the problem. Vote out fear mongering republicans

[-] 2 points by TrevorMnemonic (5827) 2 years ago

So do you support that attacks in Yemen, Somalia, Pakistan, Lebanon, etc... including the surrounding of Iran and the potential attack?

Because that was the GOP's plan.... including to go after Libya. The plan was exposed in 2007 under Bush's reign... General Wesley Clark talks about it in the video I shared earlier. It was exposed in a democrat organization known as Democracy Now.

So essentially you support Bush era policies. Because Libya was their idea. It's also supported by faux dems. Dennis Kucinich was right in how Libya should have been handled. We once used diplomacy to talk Gaddafi out of a nuclear program.

[-] 0 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

Yeah yeah yeah. Gimme a break. We cannot hit a magic switch to turn things off. What kind moron thinks this massive power grab by the 1% plutocrat military industrial complex can be undone over night.

Instead of the Bush plan to invade with 1/2 a million troops in Libya for another decade long profit making adventure to put in a govt to our liking we did the opposite. We let the Libyan people decide.

You think the neocons prefer the muslim brotherhood taking power in egypt.? You think that was their plan.? LMFAO. There have been other islamist govt that came to power as well. do you think the repub neocons were planning that.?

Who do you think you are fooling?. The repubs would never have handled the US military as well as Pres Obama and dems. repubs would never be as limited. Would never have sought real partners/approval. Would never have allowed a hostile govt to take power.

What a joke. You either do not know what you are talkin about. Or you are consciously, & dishonestly just trying to put down dems.

I choose the latter. You are just anti dem partisan. In any event you are wrong!

Elect progressives, Vote out fear mongering republicans

[-] 4 points by shadz66 (19985) 2 years ago

"We let the Libyan people decide." - LOLOLOL !!!

Barack 'Obomber' is proving to be yet another Neo-Imperialist American President and this time with a clear NeoCON tinge. 'Ohbummer' is more likely to be a huggy, happy puppet of Banksters and Imperial Interests, than someone who will ever deliver any kind of "change we can believe in". Indeed, 'Oblah-blah's hypocritical words re. "Change we can believe in", nowadays appear to have all the hallmarks of psychopathy and recalling those pre-election speeches is now enough to induce extreme nausea.

The new front on the 21st century resource wars is Africa and Libya was 'Chapter 1' as The US-MIC's AFRICOM ( http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/7026197.stm ) is now in full swing.

Therefore, with reference to Libya and for some information from beyond the MSM veil, I post some points and observations :

(1) Libya's previous offers to other African countries to trade, exchange and barter Libya's abundant gas and oil ( http://www.oilandgaslibya.com/ ) in exchange for agricultural produce, raw materials and especially Gaddaffi's thoughts, ideas and proposals for a Pan-Continental Africa GOLD backed currency { http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=24639 }, which would thus have undermined existing notions of the "petro-dollar" and demand for the U$D as the Global Reserve Currency - is really Absolutely Critical to understanding NATO's War on Libya ;

(2) An ever greedy corporate eye is being cast upon Libya's rather unlikely but actually, very real Water Resources ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Manmade_River ), which will be available for future export to Malta, Sicily, Egypt, Tunisia etc., { http://www.waterpolitics.com/2011/07/31/water-big.... } ;

(3) Libya has almost no national debt & is NOT in hock to the Unholy & Usurious WTO / IMF / World Bank - Nexus. Libya's 2010 debt was less than $6.4 Billion & 9% of GDP at a per capita debt of only $970/person - (See line 99, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_external_debt ) ;

(4) Having a 'State Owned Central Bank' -- Libya is NOT a member of that Elitist Club of Private Central Bankers, 'The Bank of International Settlements'. One of the first acts of "The Rebels" was to establish a New Private Central Bank of Libya ( http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article27881.htm ) and this point can NOT be Emphasised Enough ;

(5) Libya ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libya ) has a very small population relative to its size (~6.5M) & thus seems ripe for de facto take over in the always avaricious eyes of The Empire & the Greedy Global Oligarchs, who with the help, blood & lives of "The Rebels", will now seek to turn Libya into yet another Corporate / Imperial Fiefdom.

~

Alas, the modus operandi of this latest WAR for Resources & Imperial Hegemony is now increasingly clear for us all to see. Libyans should be extremely wary about "throwing the baby out with the bath water" and of "jumping out of the frying pan & into the fire" ; as becoming indentured Wage-Slaves to the Oily-garchs and being in perpetual Debt-Bondage to The Infernal Banksters will NEVER constitute Liberty, Prosperity or Dignity for Libyans.

Finally, on the matter of Libyan Fresh Water, the source of Libya's very real but seemingly improbable, Water Resources is NOT the surface run off & accumulation of rain water which is, as one would imagine in this now desert country, rather negligible.

The actual source of Libya's water resources are the subterranean fresh water aquifers which hold stupendous amounts of ancient water from when the region was far less dry & had a lush equatorial climate in pre-history, before 'modern-civilisation'.

The aquifers date from a time before The Sahara was the desert we now know & is termed 'fossil water'. Geologically it is known as 'The Nubian Sandstone Aquifer' & it is the largest such resource known in the world. It is this water that the Huge Civil-Engineering projects were dedicated to utilising.

Also please see :

~

minima maxima sunt et timeo 'Pax Americana' et dona ferentes ...

[-] 3 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

Well that was an interesting read. Convincing as well. With the exception of the offensive names you use in regards to President Obama I found it compelling and believable.

I would agree with the premises related to the resource wars to come being in Africa, and even that the action in Libya certainly is related to Oi l at least.

So this Libya adventure can easily be as you suggest. Part of the powers that be plan. The 1% plutocrat military industrial complex. This existing power structure cannot be changed over night. They won't allow it! We can only hope that a slow process can be implemented without creating the wrath of the plutocrats. They will not hesitate to assassinate our leaders. real alternative green tech energy progress, & continued draw down of war, & continued minimizing of the fear mongering required to maintain NDAA Patriot act and constant war.

These steps are critical, I see these steps being attempted with great resistance from republicans.

I can appreciate the info you provided. I can agree with much of it. What solutions might you suggest.

You seem intelligent, so what do we do.?

[-] 3 points by shadz66 (19985) 2 years ago

Time is short, for me personally right now as I type and in a broader sense - maybe for us all !

Refuse to swallow the 'Faux US Binary' of Demoblican & Republocrat !!

"What do we do ?" : Educate ; Agitate ; Organise !!!

respice, adspice, prospice ...

[-] 4 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

Ok. I like the progressive angle. I believe progressive policies are needed to solve the problems created by conservative policies. So I'm not sure about "true conservatives" you mentioned (whose truth?). But if they support the progressive solutions we need I'm cool with that.

Libertarians frequently refuse to support any govt responsibility beyond the military but if you think they can support the needed policies then I yield to your thoughtful approach.

I'll be there if I am accepted.

[+] -4 points by vvv0729 (-189) 2 years ago
[-] 4 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

That all sounds great. Iespecially like the 40 million underwater homeowners getting together. However much it sounds like hype I assure you the difficulty in achieving that is awesome. I would love to see it. I support it.

Not entirely clear but it sounds you do not believe that the dems can be co opted and draged back from the right. I suppose we disagree on that.

You appear intelligent and I respect that. I won't give up the effort to influence reform through dem party. I'm not against other avenues of creating change. But I believe with a robust progressive movement and getting money out of politics will allow us to make the dems serve the 99%.

Good luck to you.

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 2 years ago

The 'Democraps' are clearly a 'very broad church' ; from engaged, considerate, empathic, socially aware, tolerant, progressive and personable 'liberal' people, who one may enjoy an engaging chat with at a dinner party at one end of the spectrum - right through to raging, reactionary 'USA Exceptionalists' who have 'OD'ed on M.S.M. Propaganda and are somewhere to the right of Genghis Khan !!!

I put my hopes in mobilising the best elements of US Progressives, together with true conservatives and even '(quasi)free market libertarians' In Combination and Alliance With - 'The Untapped Power of The ~50% of Understandably Cynical, Weary & Apathetic USers Who Don't Vote' - in an 'United Front against The Bankster Corporations' & their agents, apologists, lackeys and lickspittles !!

dum spiro, spero ...

[-] 4 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

Yeah I'm doin that.

I may not always agree with everyone. But I make an extra effort to avoid the school yard bullying tactics that are only detrimental to the movement.

"we must treat each other as if we are going to be working together for years" J Stein.. I believe it will take years. And I believe we must bring people in, even if we disagree.

I have very little patience for those I perceive as partisan anti dems. Because I DO believe the dems can be dragged back from the right. I believe we MUST try. I believe there is vast difference between the parties and I believe we must call out fallacies when we see it.

You don't have to agree with me. I'm not against your tactic. Educate, Agitate, Organize! Thats easy. I been doin that for decades. I think your tactics require mutual respect. I hope you are gettin somewhere. Have you made progress?

My tactics require working hard at getting politicians to fight againstthe powers that be. Almost impossible. Can't be done without a large people powered movement that stays active for years.

Peace, Luck

[-] 3 points by shadz66 (19985) 2 years ago

Buckminster Fuller said :

  • "A problem adequately stated is a problem well on its way to being solved".

While the thin veneer comprising the owners of capital continues to exist above a slightly thicker layer of so-called "knowledge workers", most Americans sense they are sliding down a steepening economic slope. With the highest concentration and income in the industrial world, The U$A is now the developed world's most economically stratified society, edging out even such traditional class-conscious societies as in The UK - which acquired its disparities from a feudal and oligarchical past. American society lacks that handy excuse, it didn't inherit inequity - it chose to create it !

Consider : most citizens in The USA, need to work for themselves or by selling their labour, knowledge and expertise - work for others in order to pay their bills, take care of their obligations and finance their lives. Thus from this perspective, stripped of hubris, conceits & affectations - most people are 'Working Class' - irrespective of what they do or how much they earn !!

Perhaps there is now, the most urgent need for a 'Political Party to Truly Represent 'Labour"' - as opposed to the situation now where both sides of the 'faux dichotomy of Republocrat / Demoblican', only ever really represents "Capital". Past November '2012's 'Presidential Selection', it is high time for a real "American Labour Party" and / or Real Independents !!!

Further consider that (S)Elected Politicians from the two establishment parties will Never be made to do the bidding of The 99% - they are captured and corrupted by The Corporations and The Parasitic 0.01%. Also btw & 'fyi' : "E, A, O" =/= "easy", lol - but we have to persevere because the option is unthinkable ! You must continue to do as you do & tenaciously act as you see fit, as must I & indeed all of us here !! 'Together' we are stronger ; 'divided' we're fukt !!!!

Consider for example :

per ardua ad astra ....

[-] -1 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

People have been trying to drag them back to humanity since they started the vietnam war.

Good luck.

Divide and conquer wins again.

[-] -3 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

Excellent point below on motivating and uniting the 50% that dont bother participating in this circus. I've always believed that the key to any meaningful change would be them.

I think it was why Occupy was growing so quick in the beginning.

[-] 3 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

The only way we can fail at dragging the dems back from the right is if we don't have a large enough protest movement. If too many are apathetic or beaten and just give up then we have no hope, and the 1% win

It's up to the people.

[-] 3 points by DKAtoday (28063) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Yes the majority of the people must get involved.

[-] -1 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

Im of the persuassion that the elections are a joke at this point, that regardless who gets elected we are going into the Greatest Depression head first, full speed ahead.

It would be nice to get some basic social issues taken care of, but neither party seems to give a shit about that either.

[-] 4 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

Ok. I hope we avoid a depression but there are signs of major problems ahead.

However, I'm still engaged. I gather since you think "elections are a joke" you are not voting?

[-] -2 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

I'll go, Im not sure how many of the choices I see will mean anything and/or make a difference. I believe in voting, but when the public is bound and determined to ride this ship off the cliff, its hard to get too excited about it.

The solutions to the problems are really easy. The hard part is getting people in there with big enough balls to actually follow through on them.

There is no avoiding the depression. The only thing we have done since the collpase of 08 is strenghten the people who caused it and printed a shit ton of money. They are soaking us for everything we have, and arent gonig to quit.

[-] 2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

Sounds pretty bad. I think we might as well give up. Curl up in a corner, and rant at the moon.

Hope you get through the coming depression ok.

[-] -2 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

We are all waiting to a certain extent, because without numbers noting is taken seriously.

Its why people always claim occupy is dead, becaue the numbers arent as good.

Numbers, numbers, numbers.

[-] 4 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

Heres a number:

99 days till the election. Should we give up? stay home? I know you don't want to vote for Obama or Romney. So what? 3rd party?

What about the senate? or House seats? Should we do anything regarding that in 99 days?

[-] -2 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

The people will unite and rise up when they have had enough. And when they do, they will not be following one of these obviously corrupted parties.

The days of Republican and Democrat rule are coming to an end. The faster the better. Power to the people.

[-] 4 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

I don't doubt that. I even support that eventuality. until then I have to agitate for reform in the only system we have.

I can't give up and wait for the people to rise up.

Are you waitin for the rising.?

[-] 2 points by shadz66 (19985) 2 years ago

Thanx & re. "Voting Is Dead" :

I agree that this is the case in The Present demoCRAZY deMOCKERYcy but as a 'zealot for democracy', I still have some residual hope for a 99% Mass Movement asserting their democratic, political & human rights - but manually counted paper ballots are probably even more important than voter turnout. IF The US 99% can acquire 'class consciousness', mobilise & attain 'critical mass' ... then the possibilities are limitless !!!

per aspera ad astra ...

[-] 0 points by john23 (-272) 2 years ago

You sound ridiculous VQkag2...ridiculous.

Admit it when you're wrong.

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

Great. Name calling= weak argument. I win!. No more substance?

I think your evidence that Pres Obama is a war mongerer, or a war criminal, or the same as Bush, or as bad as Bush, or continues repub policies, is outrageous, outlandish. I think your position relies on half truths and dishonest opinions. Your goals appear to be to minimize repub war crimes, and discourage progressive support for dems.

You know Pres Obama has been very successful at limiting our military use. At undoing republican fear mongering. At resisting republican war mongering to invade Iran.

How about Syria? Is that also Bushs plan?

You just can't stand it. LMFAO.

Repub ARE the problem. Vote out fear mongering republicans.

[-] 0 points by john23 (-272) 2 years ago

Iran much (fear mongering)? You're blinded by your ideologies....wake up.

What name did i call you? Once again, you're lying and distorting.

Dig through some of Shadz info he's laid out very nicely for you.

[-] 3 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

But you don't think people will see my point. Right? They will see clearly that I am wrong & you are right. Won't they? And so it is good we debate (in a civil way) out in the open marketplace of ideas.

I'm sure that you are comfortable with your position. I mean you did have links. I am certainly comfortable with mine.

We disagree. Thats all. No reason to take it personally, no reason to be hostile or offensive. That usually means you are wrong. Right?

Good luck in your efforts. By the way. What are your goals.? What are you trying to accomplish? Are you simply trying to convince me and others that Pres Obama and the dems are the same as Bush and the Repubs?. Once someone says "ok your right Obama is the same" Then what?

Is there a next step? Some strategy to correct our problems.? Some tactic to improve the lives of the 99%?. Do you even care about improving the lives of the 99%? Or just whether we agree that Pres Obama is the same as Bush?

Perhaps we have something in common.

[-] 3 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

I specified specifically that the differences between the approaches & outcomes of Clinton, and Bush 2 were obvious. And therefore does not require Evidence.

You can find links to any fact you want on the interwebs. I lived through both Presidencies. I know there are vast differences.

WE DISAGREE! You understand that simple reality. You are trying to convince me that 10 years of Bushs total war is the same as Clintons sanctions.

Sorry. You can't do it. I know better.

Peace. Vote out fear mongering republicans.

[-] -2 points by john23 (-272) 2 years ago

Yeah man, whatever. Like beating a dead horse here.

The scary thing is people can view your comments online and actually might take them for good information...hopefully people will take the time to look into stuff themselves.

[-] 3 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

You called me ridiculous twice. That's not useful, no substance.

Iran is an example of Pres Obama resisting the war mongering of your republicans. Get it?

I liked shadz info. Agree with much of it before I've even checked it. but that doesn't change the fact that this Pres has begun the steps necessary to undo the oligarcs plan. I believe the dems can be pulled back from the right and made to serve the 99%.

I believe it is the repubs who proudly trumpet the conservative policies that serve the war mongering military industrial complex.

That is where we disagree.

The path away from this corrupt hegemony over the planetary resources is through a people powered movement that can co opt an existing party, or create a new system horizontal, bottom up, direct democracy, based on anarchistic/progressive principles.

Both avenues must be pursued or all is lost. It will take years!

The insulting name calling is useless. In fact it is detrimental to the movement. "we must treat each other as if we will be working together for years" J Stein.

I can't convince anyone to agree with me by insulting them, or bullying them. And neither can you. Even shadz withh all the great points demeans them all with the offensiveness.

Sorry. It is important. I don't come here to jerk off and engage in shoolyard bullying tactics. Thats a waste. I left that behind 35 years ago.

Thanks Peace

[-] -2 points by john23 (-272) 2 years ago

Calling someone ridiculous is a schoolyard bullying tactic?

To me schoolyard bullying also involves lying and distorting another persons views to slander someone in order to get others to agree with your opinion.

"I believe it is the repubs who proudly trumpet the conservative policies that serve the war mongering military industrial complex."

You need to look at actions under both dem and republican admins....not their words to elected.

Iran....how many sanctions have been imposed by this admin? This is a buildup to inevitable war with them. Sanctions are an act of war....it's the same buildup that took place in Iraq....look how many innocent people died in iraq because of our sanctions....estimated around 500,000....and that was admitted by the admin.

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

Your continued misrepresentation of the facts to minimize republicans crimes and inaccurately claim that Dems are the same betrays your partisanship.

Clintons limited use of military, compared to Bush doctrine of overwhelming force is vastly different. To suggest otherwise once again betrays your partisanship.

Sorry, We disagree.

Peace, End the Drone Attacks

[-] -1 points by john23 (-272) 2 years ago

"Your continued misrepresentation of the facts to minimize republicans crimes and inaccurately claim that Dems are the same betrays your partisanship."

Please provide me with my misrepresented facts...provide a source for it. Stop lying...you're doing it again. I didn't misrepresent any facts.

"once again betrays your partisanship"

Another lie....two in the same comment. I'm not a republican.

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

You will not convince me that the current attempts at diplomacy are the same as 1/2 a million troops invading a country.

You will not convince me that the republican war mongerers have not continued to increase the pressure to invade Iran. And Pres Obama has resisted.

The parties are vastly different in how they manage war. Clinton used sanctions, Bush invaded. I disagree it's the same thing. It ain't.

Pres Obama is using sanctions and diplomacy, Repubs are pressuring for invasion. It is vastly different approaches.

We disagree. You are clearly partisan anti dem.

Peace. End the Drone Attacks

[-] -1 points by john23 (-272) 2 years ago

"You are clearly partisan and anti dem"

There you go with your schoolyard bullying tactics that include lying and distorting once again. Every time you misrepresent it i'll counter with the truth. I'm not a republican.

"Clinton used sanctions. Bush invaded. I disagree it's the same thing. It ain't."

Yeah i'm not trying to say Bush is any better than obama...he was terrible. Have you forgot about Clintons invasions/bombings?

Somalia (inherited from Bush) Yugoslavia (inherited from Bush) Bosnia 1993 Haiti 1994 Croatia 1995 Zaire 1996 Liberia 1997 Albania 1997 Sudan 1998 Afghanistan 1998 Iraq 1998 Yugoslavia 1999 Yemen 2000

Serbia and Kosovo got swept under the rug very nicely.

"You will not convince me that the current attempts at diplomacy are the same as 1/2 a million troops invading a country."

Lets compare death counts for Iraq:

Clinton: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4PgpbQfxgo

Bush: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Iraq_War

Is there really that much of a difference? Hundreds of thousands of people died in each case....innocent people.

But i totally get your argument that the dems are much more noble than repubs when they're in office. Wake up, they're both the same when it comes to the military and our presence around the world.

[-] 0 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

NO!.

I will not expend any energy looking for evidence for that which is obvious.

Sanctions, do not create more casualties than a massive 1/2 a million troop invasion. I don't have to prove my opinion. It is obvious one is worst than the other..

I am entitled to my opinion. I have expressed it. To call my opinion a lie is showing a lack of clear thinking.

WE DISAGREE!. Do you understand that?. You are trying to convince me that 10 years of total war is the same as sanctions.

Sorry. You can't do it. I know better.

Peace. Vote out fear mongering republicans.

[-] -1 points by john23 (-272) 2 years ago

"NO!. I will not expend any energy looking for evidence for that which is obvious."

Lovely....so you state that my facts that you're refuting aren't facts (facts which i provided links directly to)...and then you say you won't point to which facts are inaccurate and provide a source for that to back up your claimes. Seriously man, you need to run for office....you'd fit right in.

[-] 2 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

Libya is a fuckin mess.

Iraq is still in a state of chaos... http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/24/world/middleeast/iraqi-insurgents-kill-dozens-in-wave-of-attacks.html

We are still droning both.

If pakistan wasnt so weak, they would be fighting us back... http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/jul/07/drone-strike-us-pakistan-tokyo

Only a clown like you would say anti war stance means Republican.

[+] -6 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

We responded to UN, Arab league, Euro calls to do something to help the people of libya. We did so in a limited way. The Libyan people must now get control of their country. We ain't responsible. Up to them. Good luck.

If they get out of hand, (or the oild is threatened) I'm sure we'll be back.

Pakistan will never be strong enough so whats the point of your statement.

Much problems in Iraq for decades to come. Biggest militarymistake we made in decades.

That was your repubs who did that. But at least Pres Obama ended the war. But yeah it will be a big problem for years to come. What else do you want us to do to clean up the republican mess over there?

Drone attacks. Very bad. I support ending them. I support our resistence to any new fullscale invasions like repubs want us to do in iran.

So thats something.

No?

[-] 4 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

Last I checked the vote was pretty unanimous. It just happened to be that the pres was an elephant and not a donkey.

More war, probably a really big one, is coming. And congress will approve of it overwhemingly like they always do. Whether its MIttens in or Obama is irrelevant, because they both are funded by the same party and corporations.

endthewars

[-] 2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

Oh so Bush and repubs didn't whip up fear and war talk? They didn't deftly manuever the country into war? They didn't exploit the 9/11 attacks? they didn't lie to the UN, the congress, and the American people?

You look at the war vote like this makes the parties equally guilty in the war crime that is Iraq! You do that as an attempt to minimize your repubs crimes in this regard.

Transparent. Repubs are trying to create an constant war economy and dems ARE resisting. Dems cannot do it without real protests from the people. You should stop covering for your repubs, and misleading people into lumping dems with them! It's dishonest.

Elect Progressives

Republicans are the problem. Vote out fear mongering republicans

[-] 0 points by john23 (-272) 2 years ago

That's not what hchc is saying at all....you twist and contort everyone's arguments....he's saying there isn't a difference between the two parties when it comes to war overseas. Why not try to be somewhat truthful VQkag2????

For people reading this just check out the list of stuff Obama has continued/initiated having to do with this:

http://stpeteforpeace.org/obama.html

I'm not backing anything Bush did while in office either.....so i'm not arguing for republicans...they both do the same stuff.

[-] 0 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

they do not do the same stuff.! Those fallacies minimize the republican war crimes that resulted in millions dead, and economic crash.

This Pres has done the opposite!. He has begun to undo the mess republicans have created. He has resisted the repub war mongering pressure to invade another country (Iran) and he has stepped back from the repub fear mongering that created the atmosphere that allowed repubs to create NDAA, Patriot act and the endless war on terror.

To suggest otherwise is a feeble attempt to create cover for your repubs, and discourage progressives from supporting dems.

repubs believe in constant war as an economic strategy. Dems do not.

Major difference. Parties are vastly different.

Sorry. We disagree. I won't cover for repubs. And any dem who votes for the conservative policies that created this mess should be voted out.

Peace. End the Drone Attacks.!

[-] 1 points by john23 (-272) 2 years ago

Man...you're a politician and you don't even know it. You have to twist and contort my arguments and views to try to win your case...it's disgusting and what is wrong with most of washington today. You want to win...and you'll do anything you can to get there....blatantly lying notwithstanding. You were just doing it to hchc and now you're doing it to me.

1.) I'm not a republican 2.) Obama signed the NDAA even though he said he would veto it 3.) Resigned the Patriot act 4.) Invaded Libya without congressional approval. An act he said was unconstitutional as a candidate...and i quote:

"The President does not have power under the Constitution to unilaterally authorize a military attack in a situation that does not involve stopping an actual or imminent threat to the nation."

5.) Personally oversaw a secret assassination list. FIRST president to assassinate american citizens without a trial. 6.)Started a covert, drone war in Yemen 7.)Escalated the proxy war in Somalia 8.)Escalated the CIA drone war in Pakistan 9.)Secretly deployed US special forces to 75 countries 10.)Sold $30 billion of weapons to the dictatorship in Saudi Arabia 11.)Will maintain a presence in Iraq even after "ending" war 12.)Signed an agreement for 7 military bases in Colombia

And on and on.............

and yes, i could write a similar list for Bush while he was in office...and the president before him..and before him...and on and on.

[-] 0 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

Pres Obamas limited, transparent use of the military is 1000 times better than the inept, corrupt repubs who believe that war is an economic strategy.

Pres Obama has ended Bushs illegal oil war in Iraq, ended US torture, Defined waterboarding as torture, closed secret cia prisons, ended extraordinary rendition, has not indefinitely detained any new cases (only bushs cases are leftover), Has resisted repub war mongerers pressure to invade Iran, Has begun the slow process of undoing the republican fear mongering endless war on terror. Yemen, Somalia, Pakistan, all limited, all w/ host countries approval. Libya, resounding success! Saudi Arabia, their day will come. he can only do so much. closing bases? Iraq, Colombia, Korea, Japan, Europe. That will come. Gotta save something for next term.

We disagree. You constantly spew partisan anti dem attacks. I will defend Pres Obama/dems when I perceive your attacks as unfair and partisan.

Republicans ARE the problem. Vote out fear mongering republicans.

Elect progressives.

[-] 0 points by fiftyfourforty (1077) from New York, NY 2 years ago

Libya is in chaos. This has spilled over into neighboring Mali, an impoverished country that can ill afford chaos. The "freedom fighters" Obama armed and led lynched and raped black skinned Libyans (Tuaregs) as well as immigrants from sub Saharan Africa. As for "approval" of drone strikes google is your friend:

US drone attacks kill 12 in Pakistan | World news | guardian.co.uk

www.guardian.co.uk › News › World news › PakistanJun 3, 2012 – A Pakistani protest against US drone strikes. The latest two attacks have killed 12 people. Photograph: SS Mirza/AFP/Getty. Ten more people ... BBC News - Pakistan summons US envoy over drone strikes

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-18331827Jun 5, 2012 – Pakistan summons a US envoy to protest against a surge in drone attacks, the latest of which targeted al-Qaeda's second in command. Pakistan protests after US drone strike - FT.com www.ft.com › World › Asia-PacificMay 5, 2012 – A missile attack by a US drone has killed at least eight suspected Islamic militants in Pakistan's remote North Waziristan region along the ... Pakistanis protest against US drone strikes - Central & South Asia ...

www.aljazeera.com/news/asia/2011/05/201152262955326528.htmlMay 22, 2011 – Imran Khan leads thousands in Karachi rally, calling for an end to strikes seen as violation of Pakistan's territory. Videos for pakistan protests drones - Report videos

► 0:48► 0:48 Raw Video: Pakistanis ... youtube.com Apr 23, 2011

► 9:09► 9:09 Pakistanis protest "Playstation ... rt.com Jun 6, 2011

► 3:00► 3:00 Deadly drone attack sparks Pakistan ... youtube.com Apr 24, 2011 Pakistan protests after deadly drone strike and release of CIA Agent ...

dronewarsuk.wordpress.com/.../pakistan-protests-after-deadly-drone-...17/03/2011. Pakistan protests at release of Raymond Davis. Twenty-four hours after the release of CIA man Raymond Davis, a US drone strike has killed more ... Pakistan protests U.S. drone strikes - UPI.com www.upi.com/.../Pakistan-protests...drone.../UPI-15821335892740/May 1, 2012 – Pakistan says U.S. drone strikes like the one that killed three people in North Waziristan violate international law. Pakistanis protest U.S. drone action - CNN articles.cnn.com/.../pakistan.drone.protest_1_drone-strikes-nato-supp...Apr 24, 2011 – A Pakistani opposition leader on Sunday threatened to have supporters block NATO supply routes to Afghanistan and march to Islamabad if ... Pakistanis protest drones as 12 die in strikes - CNN.com

www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/01/.../pakistan.drone.../index.ht...Jan 23, 2011 – Pakistani villagers protested Sunday in at least two locations against missile strikes that they believe come from unmanned U.S. aircraft, as at ... Protests as drones return over Pakistan - The Hindu www.thehindu.com › News › InternationalApr 30, 2012 – Pakistan was quick to protest. In a statement issued after midnight, the Foreign Office said drone strikes were in total contravention of .

[-] 2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

We don't pay any mind to protests. case in point OWS. The pakistan gov just restored our supply lines. They approve whether you believe it, or like it or not. I'm sure not everyone in all the various countries we drone bomb approve. But their leaders do so. There you go. I continue to agitate for an end to the drone bombings.

As I said I disapprove of the drone bombings. I only take issue with your characterization of "massive", they ain't. and that it somehow equates to war like Bushs illegal oil war in Iraq. Nothing like it.

Libya: Who know whats going on over there.? We can't be held responsible for every wacko with a guns action. We did the right thing helping (with europe, UN, and arab league) the people get rid of a murderous leader.

What more do you want.? The libyan people must choose their own path. If they get out hand (or the oil is threatened) I'm sure we'll be back. Thats how it works. No?

[-] 0 points by fairforall (279) 2 years ago

which one?

[-] -1 points by vvv0729 (-189) 2 years ago

The war in Iraq has not "ended". Go to Google News any time, enter "Iraq" in the search box, and click to see the ongoing catastrophe.

[-] -2 points by freewriterguy (882) 2 years ago

OH Rep and Demo, I thought it was Research and Development, hahahahha. I think they should cut everything out of the government, Fuck the old people who jacked up the cost of our homes, so we have to slave away most of our lives for a home, they took the lions share of our wealth there, FACT: The people who jacked up the cost of our homes is equal to blame in what caused this mess! If old people would sell their home for what they paid for it, along with everyone else, we wouldnt be bitching about corporatism today and then old people are bankrupting the social security and medicare system so there will be nothing left for me when I need it. Let them die naturally and quit wasting money transporting them to the hospital and trying to make them live longer, we cant afford old people anymore! We cant afford foreign wars, and we cant afford to pay hidden multiple taxation on our gasoline! I can see that some of you dont agree with me already, cause you want to be "politically correct or something" . Well, If old people bought there homes for $15k-$30 k for a 5-10- year loan, and now we have to pay $150k for those same homes for 15 to 30 years, along with paying another $150k to rich bankers, thanks to these old people. Why do you feel that we owe them so much more. Isnt that brainwashing?

Case in point, lets say that we were foolish enough to compare ourself to the old people who got the lions share of our wealth and we go on imagining that this is all going to work out somehow.... so that means my 150k home I will be able to sell to your children for 1.5 million dollars to be on the same scale of what old people are now retiring on?????? (turn on brain here to begin to comprehend)

Another Case in point, did you know that when an old person is transported to the emergency room by a local fire department personnel who are paid with peoples money to sit around doing nothing anyways, they send a bill of at least $400 in double taxation to that person having a heart attack? And if they use any of their emergency supplies like oxygen, or an IV, the bill jumps up to $800! dont believe me? give me your email and ill send you some bills sent out to a neighbor from a local fire department!

You see its all about pay pay pay the government whose sole purpose seems to exist as a consumer of our resources. I say fuck the government! they have fucked us over, and have sold out our country, and especially our freedoms.

[-] 1 points by gsw (2687) 2 years ago

I can hear the frustration of Freewriterguy:

Do the fire departments bill you in your state?

When my wife was sent to the hospital by her boss, the hospital sent us the bills for emergency room care and transport. It was about $2,400.00 for 2 hours in the emergency room. She's 46 years old, and was feeling dizzy, and her company phoned for an ambulance.

They do charge a lot. I understand how frustrating that is.

I disliked when my teenager came home and she called her boyfriend's cell phone, and despite us having an international calling plan, we were charged .24 cents a minute (I didn't know she was calling a cell phone, and I didn't know it was .24 a minute) so we had a $600.00 bill.

It feels like wee are hostage to these companies, collection agencies. Of course I like a sheep pay them, and then wonder why I have to re-refinance my house every 2 years, to pay off all these paycheck to paycheck survival debts.

There must be a better way for health care, but we should, I think, help the elderly to have a humane and long life. End of life care does cost a lot. working together we should be able to take care of the people, and not devalue them.

Corporations and government must be checked.

[-] 1 points by freewriterguy (882) 2 years ago

well ive never been to a hospital and tell people to just leave me be. If I die, its meant to be besides Id rather lay down mylife than to give another penny to rich hospital people!

[-] 1 points by TitusMoans (2451) from Boulder City, NV 2 years ago

Suppose you contract a really painful or chronic long-term disease, such as cancer or scleroderma, or your kidneys fail?

Talk is cheap. Wait till the cards are dealt before you make a bet.

[-] 1 points by freewriterguy (882) 2 years ago

and jesus asked, "will faith be found in the earth" when he returns? I refuse to put my trust in man's hospitals, just as several south american villages have no need of hospitals nor could they even afford it, yet they live over a hundred years old, and there is no case of cancer in their villages. its the corporate processed foods that cause cancer. Try growing your own plants, and eat lots of grains to keep you regular. Drink fruit juice 100% not the 5% with 95% of sugar water walmart sells in the names Minuite Maid and Tropicana. (Tropicana does sell 100% never from concentrate OJ however. Remember my brother, it is written, our leaders wisdom will flee them in the last, days, and believe me, its gone up and went! There is another way.

Did you know there was never a case of catching any disease drinking raw milk from *PASTURE FED * COWS ? The first report of disease from drinking raw milk which led to legislation and corporatism and forever changing how we drink milk. From cows crammed in a stalls living in their own shit (Much like our chicken) It was always about greed and corporatism. The true source of the disease was not from Alta Dairy Farm but a processing plant that failed to clean their equipment. There was coverup and a pay off of legislators on this episode which led to changing our laws and making it difficult to buy raw milk, (Farms now have to post on their raw milk products a label , "Not intended for human consumption") . Research it, yourself, the dairy's name was Alta Dena.

[-] 2 points by TitusMoans (2451) from Boulder City, NV 2 years ago

Keep telling yourself that. Paleolithic life expectancy was probably around 20-25 years old, and all those old-stone-age people ate was all natural.

Please, furnish reputable sources for South American villages, where people routinely live to over 100 years old. I don't trush in myth, snake handlers, faith healing, or the just-perfect diet. I'll put my faith in modern, scientific medicine. That's why I carry full health insurance; because modern medicine has verifiable results.

[-] -2 points by Porkie (-255) 2 years ago

We need to eliminate both parties to create an all inclusive "American" party which will hash out its differences in concert and move forward towards some mutual prosperity.

[-] 1 points by bensdad (8977) 2 years ago

how many decades before that happens?

[-] -1 points by Porkie (-255) 2 years ago

I don't believe it ever will but it's not our form of government that's at fault; it's that we have two parties in opposition. Both intentionally create "issues" to stand in opposition while yelling, "Look at me, I'm the true American."

We need ONE "American" party.

[-] -3 points by throaway (57) 2 years ago

This attitude is summed up in an e mail a friend forwarded me, authorship unknown, about the differences between Republicans and Democrats, conservatives and liberals. Test it on those you know.

If a Republican doesn't like guns, he doesn't buy one. If a Democrat doesn't like guns, he wants all guns outlawed.

If a Republican is a vegetarian, she doesn't eat meat. If a Democrat is a vegetarian, he wants all meat products banned or regulated for everyone.

If a Republican is homosexual, he leads his life. If a Democrat is homosexual, he demands legislated respect.

If a Republican is down-and-out, he thinks about how to better his situation. If a Democrat is down and out, she wonders who is going to take care of her.

If a Republican doesn't like a talk show host, he switches channels. if a Democrat doesn't like a talk show host, he demands that he/she be taken off the air.

If a Republican has no religious belief, he doesn't go to church. If a Democrat has no religious belief, he wants any mention of God and religion silenced.

If a Republican needs health care, he shops for it, or finds a job that provides it. If a Democrat needs health care, she demands that the rest of us provide it.

If a Republican reads this, she'll forward it so her friends can reflect on it. If a Democrat receives this, he will delete it because he's "offended".

Read more: http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2012/07/the_differences_between_republicans_and_democrats.html#ixzz223QnptZi