Forum Post: The Solutions Thread
Posted 12 years ago on Oct. 31, 2011, 2:26 a.m. EST by DavidD
(48)
from Minot AFB, ND
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
This is my first post here, so Hi! I'm in the USAF, so I can't exactly occupy anything, other than my concerns. I am very political, I mostly lean to the right, but not on everything. I am very curious about this particular movement. I'm not a tea party type person, not a republican, not any one group. I think if everyone in the room is thinking alike, then no one is thinking. I think our government has reached the point where priorities are no longer working in the best interest of our people. So you are the movement, I'm the bystander, independent, open minded, etc. Sell me on the movement. What are the solutions? Don't generalize, spell them out and be very specific, you are selling this to me and the however many other bystanders are going to read this.
To the bystander:
Let's start by getting corporate $$ out of American politics.
Denounce ALEC! Nothing to do with the people. Denounce the Federalist Society! Couldn't care less about the 99 percent. Denounce the behavior of an unelected and unconstitutional Supreme Court! Even Gingrich thinks so.
Drop the Cable TV, educate yourself: Watch Thom Hartmann at http://www.youtube.com/user/TheBigPictureRT
Complete transparency on everything except medical records. knowledge wants to be free. Do a better job of analyzing externalities and determining how they will effect the market/society/politics Foster greater participation in democracy. Direct democracy is scary and construed as anarchistic, but even our oligarchic democracy can succeed in getting better results if there is more public participation. Watch out for concentrations of power, especially between industries and the bodies that regulate them.
Are you convinced? Because I'm not.
Personally (and this is not what the movement is about, so take that into consideration... I am shot down any time I bring it up... to the point that my posts are even starting to disappear)...
Personally, the Occupiers are focusing on the wrong people. The money needs to get out of Washington, yes. Our reps need to be our reps again.
But yelling at the 1% will not change anything. The change must come from the folks who write policy. It'd be one thing if the banks and big business owners were breaking laws, but the fact is, they're not. The laws have been written to protect them.
The "movement" should focus on Washington. And only Washington. As it is, there are too many causes... making for too much confusion.
I'm not convinced I want this movement to rule our government's policies. As someone that tries to apply democracy to my work leadership style, I know the majority is not always right. Often the majority is standing on the thoughts of a few and those few do not have the best interests of the everyone, not just the majority, in mind.
I am convinced, not by the movement, but because it exists, that the citizens of this country are fed up with our leaders. I am convinced that one day the citizen servants, the ones replaced by politicians, will come back to lead this country again.
Many people recognize the service and sacrifices of our military personnel and thank them for it. When is the last time you wanted to tell a government leader, "thank you for your service"?
When there are so many people concerned with how the government is conducting itself, there will be many causes. The causes will slowly become fewer and stronger, if people are treated with respect and everyone feels as though their opinion matters. Personally I don't hold my opinion above anyone else's. It is my opinion, just as everyone else has one. I may not like everyone's opinions, but that doesn't give me the right to be disrespectful or treat them in a way I would not want to be treated. I have seen some views here that I disagree with 100%, but everyone has a right to express what they believe and that is what has to happen to keep this movement particular movement alive.
First, let me start by apologizing if my tone was harsh. I've had another long evening of sitting in front of this screen trying to figure all this out. I started out like you, asking a million and one questions, trying to learn more... just wanting to understand.
The more I learned, the less I understood. There is so much confusion. So much chaos.
I have gotten a little stubborn with my views on Washington, I have to admit. I have been attacked, slandered, insulted... you name it, I've received it on this site... for merely stating my opinion.
As the weeks progressed, I started getting a harder edge to my tone.
Until I reached the point I did today...
defeat.
I have said numerous times that all this movement has done at this point is start a conversation and bring awareness to the unrest of the people.
And that's a start, don't get me wrong...
But I bid you good luck should you try to interject a contrary opinion on this forum. It will not be welcomed. And as you try to respectfully make a point, but realize later that someone has come in behind you and deleted your posts... you might find yourself typing words with similar smugness that mine carried in my original post.
I do not want this movement to write policy or rule our government either.
the only thing we all agree on here is we want the money out of Washington. That's it. I do not believe this is the place to discuss free higher education, debt forgiveness, universal healthcare, base wages, hydrofracking... all those issues are best decided by our elected officials... once they truly represent us again.
We all agree that the money needs to get out of politics. But that's all we agree on. We can't even agree on how to get it out of politics.
The movement assumes to think that shaming Wall Street into not bribing our politicians will work.
I am of a different mind. The politicians write the laws that allow Wall Street to do what it has done. I think the way to get the money out of the parties is to stand up and uniformly demand the politicians currently holding office make it so.
We have no power over Wall Street. Not unless everyone pulls their money out of the stock market at once (I do not recommend this)... if this is a democracy... in theory we do have power over our elected officials.
Anyway, that was my point. And this turned into one tired girl's ramblings... so I apologize again.
Thank you for taking the time to read it, though.
I try not to attribute tone to text, so I didn't take your post to be harsh. I think I've read a few of your comments around here and I don't remember one that I didn't agree with. That includes everything i'm replying to right now. My comment ended up being my own rambling :) You eyes aren't the only tired ones staring at a screen, get some rest.
Maybe the 99% could start their banks and what not? And if politics stayed out of the corporations then there would be no need to lobby. I.e. I don't Bill Gates wanted a lobby, When MS started he did not have any lawyers doing that type of Washington work.
Maybe the 99% could start their banks and what not? And if politics stayed out of the corporations then there would be no need to lobby. I.e. I don't Bill Gates wanted a lobby, When MS started he did not have any lawyers doing that type of Washington work.
amen
Thank you for the comments so far. I have some questions I'll be posting as replies.
Let me answer this in a funny way as follows:I met a man from another galaxy a week before who had as he told me adopted the look and chemistry of the humans for the time being, I wondered he knew everything about us even about future,he was able to predict about anything I asked him about.I bought a bottle of juice for him for some bucks.He laughed a lot on my using money.He said,"Man is born free and is a social being and his being so must not be exploited in any way but this money is designed to exploit the majority." Then he explained that the money we use has a baseless foundation because it is controlled by a vested interest group about which the common people know only very little.Suggesting that we may use the manual or electronic 'swap cards' instead which shall record at least the path of transaction if more features are not added which shall also stop the governments from printing money which(printing money) tantamount to stealing goods and services from the system which is eventually used by the governments for wrong purposes because there is no check on the governments.Adding that this monetary system shall always give rise to crime.Then he said ,"Are you so fools that you cannot invent a crime proof system". I said,"Do you think human beings are enough intelligent to devise a new system ". He answered that human being is very intelligent indeed and capable of devising any thing which does not violate fifth dimension logic rules but 99% of the people are under the control of just 1% bad people who do not want to change the system.
As long as there is value to anything there will be crime. No matter what monetary system there is, there will always be a way to beat the system, for individuals to build up wealth or to steal. Even in a bartering system there are goods or services more valuable than others, therefore making a minority richer than the rest.
Please explain the stranger's system more in depth if you disagree.
Please note the correction in the last sentence(I may inform you about the dimensions of logic like point dimensional .linear logic,two dimensional logic,3 ,4,5 dimensional logic where point dimensional logic can be violated by the linear logic which in turn can be violated by 2d logic,which in turn can be violated by 3d logic and so on )The stranger told me that they have got such a system of economics, governance and ethics( where ethics is being centric,environment centric and knowledge centric) where a being shall have no time to harm any body which shall otherwise lead him to lose the race towards gaining the points of priority necessary for becoming eligible to buy certain things at least not to talk about the loss of other privileges .He added that in that system a being gains nothing from stealing or from committing a crime because everybody polices(casual/chance based policing) everybody else.Besides every goods and services are having non forger able labels over there in his galaxy therefore one cannot cheat or steal anything.Then in short he told me that one can get what ever one likes in his galaxy provided one does good deeds which includes ones work to be eligible to obtain that but cannot obtain any benefit of ones actions if they lead to any kind of harm to any body.
Solutions: 1) Some type of organization needs to occur. There are a lot of people involved in this movement, all over the country and the numbers add up. 2) One person should be a voice from each city and town to represent that occupation; 3) Use the general assemblies to brainstorm on answering: what/who/where and when 4) Take the results and the "voices" can then have meetings online; to communicate which each other the results to list the wanted changes; from the most important and on. 5) Start petitions on Change.Org to generate change (which is what all this is about correct?) 6) Start National Movements: Bank account closings; Boycotts; etc...
otherwise the Corporations and Wall Street and Banks will continue to smile and make jokes about the movements. Nothing will get done and people will end up packing up their tents, because winter is coming and the mayors are getting edgy with the occupation.
If there is any one thing I agree with about this movement, it's the word "occupy". We, the people, are this country, we are the occupies. We were given power over all government, over all the principles, all the leaders, over all in this land. Over time we have forgotten our inheritance and sold it away for words and promises.
Do you think organization at a grand scale is required for this movement to stand the test? The reason I ask is I think grandeur is the downfall of most movements. People put more pride in the name of the movement and it's size than accomplishing the goals of the movement. Coordination is a must, without doubt. Setting goals, again a must. The problem is many changes can be made at lower levels and escalate, whereas changes at higher levels will likely fizzle out. Look at the Civil Rights movement of the '60s. A lot of the changes came from small communities working together, showing the power and shouting the voices of the occupying citizens. There were efforts that brought great success from larger scale coordination, but that success was made possible from people thinking locally.
What movements do you think would be the most affective? Which brands should be boycotted? Which companies and which products they produce should be the primary targets? Do you think there is something other than protesting that could amplify the voices of the movement? Do you think something like local and community improvement projects, with fund raisers and cleaning up our cities would be an affective way to voice a desire for a change?
Great questions! The Civil Rights movement did create a ton of change that were community based. I suppose that I am concerned because we are more "global" now and have mass communication resources to generate large movements that can take a focus and go with it, then add another focus until we start seeing the changes that we want. Not everyone can make it to the Occupy protests, I myself for one. But I try to get involved in other ways, in posting and writing. I started a Crossing Borders Project, voice through images project, which I am hoping will get going! I agree with your comments, that larger scale changes are made from people thinking locally!
I saw something interesting on You Tube, titled keep wall street occupied. The person in the video suggested taking the requests for credit card solicitations that we all seem to get in the mail, and send them back to the bank, blank with an added "flyer" saying something like, go join the union or something. The mail coming back to the bank, blank is a voice and communication of itself. If thousands started doing that, then the banks would have to change their ways of trying to find new credit card holders.
I thought he had a great idea. As who to Boycott? There are so many subjects to cover in boycotts, from the Mexican border drug trade problems to outsourcing product creations overseas. I like local and community improvement projects along with something that would be nationally focused to generate an impact on our national concerns.
Good start
Here's my solution; considering that the last time things were this bad or worse was during the Great Depression, and considering that the New Deal had a dramatic positive effect on this economy, I would advise a retooled New Deal (a New Deal 2.0, if you will) to help fix the mess we're in now and help us prevent it from happening again. The whole thing is too long to place in one post here, so here are the links:
Overview of the entire proposal: http://www.themultitude.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=47&t=184
Rationale for Section III: http://www.themultitude.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=23&p=119#p119
Rationale for sections IV and V: http://occupywallst.org/forum/everybody-walk-away-from-your-debt/#comment-246898
Rationale and possible project ideas for Section VI: http://occupywallst.org/forum/revive-the-ccc-and-the-wpa/ http://occupywallst.org/forum/could-high-speed-rail-be-the-answer/#comment-197932
Draft of policy ideas concerning Sections VII and VII: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1gytiI1qwPDpnLQ8cRmNXoJFmiy4ob3n6yjqfBHpBH8M/edit?hl=en_US&pli=1 Note: this is just a draft and hasn't really been cleaned up or codified.
Order of implementation: Obama seems to have started on IV and V, on a much smaller scale than we hoped, but we'll see if we can widen it. VI is apparently the whole point of the OWS Jobs for All demand, so we'll see how that goes. VII and VIII have the broadest support, so we'll see how we can or can't force the issue during the 2012 election season. I-III may wind up being really hard to implement but hey, it's an election year. As to how I propose making any of this count, see here: http://occupywallst.org/forum/we-want-change-thats-great-now-how-do-we-implement/#comment-205283
Reply to this or PM me if you would about anything you disagree with and why you feel that way.
This is quite a bit to digest...I too will have to look this over. Thanks for your detailed response.
No problem; take as long as you need.
Thank you for taking the time present your response. Please give me some time to digest all of this information and I will get back to you.
No problem; take all the time you need and get back to me when you can.
Full employment in in the United States has been a long sought after goal. A possible way to achieve this goal would be a Jobs Bank where the private sector along with help from government wage subsidies can quickly re-employ the unused workforce.
The government should create a Jobs Bank where private employers may hire an unemployed worker at a wage discount from the market labor price, with the discounted portion of the wage to be paid by the government. An internet based database of resumes that could be searched or browsed by employers with a real time system of bidding on wage discounts would be relatively easy to set up. This is superior to the unemployed worker receiving unemployment benefits and/or going on welfare, food stamps etc. It will bring in tax revenue to offset or even eliminate the cost of the program when you consider savings to the social safety net programs.
This must be a temporary subsidy, but it would be beneficial to companies by having a low-cost way of training and/or evaluating an employee’s performance before permanently hiring that employee at the full market wage. At the end of the subsidy the employer might decide the employee is productive enough to pay the full wage, or negotiate a wage with the employee. There must be checks in place to prevent abuse of this program by employers dismissing long term employees to obtain new wage-discounted employees.
Hi David I am also ex Airforce RAAF.
The first thing I think OWS should realise it is not about America.
The problems we face are global.
Multinational companies are chewing up resources, polluting the planet and causing major problems for today's generations and for generations to come.
There are 1.3 billion people living in poverty around the globe that is living on less than $1.23 a day. Children are dying from malnutrition they have no access to education or healthcare.
Multinationals companies are paying little or no tax and need to be regulated.
One of the solutions should be to bring about global governance probably by strengthening the UN and giving more power to the International Criminal Court to control these Multinational companies that know no national boundries.
We should also be giving everyone on this planet an equal voice.
Not just the rich in the first world.
We are not democratic until everyone has the right to vote.
Thank you for your response and thank you for your service. I have a few questions, please take them at face value, they are only questions. What would be the checks and balances for such a governing body? How can we ensure the UN or another body isn't corrupted the same as our government has become? How would starting from the top and working down benefit the people more than making small changes and growing them to the top?
David D you are right to point to the need for checks and balances.
I believe one way may be to make sure all UN reps are elected. Maybe one rep for every 10 million people.
If is hard to see how small changes are going to make the difference in time to avoid global collapse.
It is big changes we need and everyone should have a voice.
We need a focal point to articulate the ideas of 7 billion people.
No one country can stand alone we are all part of the global village.
The change needed is going to mean a lot of capital will have to move from the developed world to the developing world, where most of the 99% live.
Absolute power will corrupt, we will need good checks and balances.
Agreed.
create a publicly verifiable internet voting system so the nation may vote when need arises
How would this system be publicly verifiable? Would credentials be verifiable or would the votes be verifiable? What privacy checks would be placed on the system?
if everyone votes publicly by name
Reporter
No More Fractional-Reserve Lending!
100% Reserve lending only (no more bailouts, no need for the fed, no manipulation of interest rates).
Create a government issued bank account for every citizen with an amount deposited yearly reflecting a per capita percentage of the desired yearly growth of the overall money supply (probably will be several thousand a year for every citizen over 18). The reason you need to do this is because with 100% reserves banking, you need to replace the old mechanism of using fractional-reserve lending for the overall money supply to grow.
The account will be split in two, one part for spending and the other part for saving. Deposits to the spending side would increase when unemployment is high, decrease when there is too much inflation. Money placed in the spending part of the account cannot be used for saving; we need to do this because of the paradox of thrift. The yearly total amount credited to both the spending and saving sections of our accounts will always equal the per capita percentage of desired growth of the overall money supply. If the government runs a deficit and needs to borrow, the first place it would borrow would be from our savings in the government bank accounts, with the appropriate interest paid to us.