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Forum Post: Everybody, walk away from your debt

Posted 2 years ago on Oct. 30, 2011, 12:13 p.m. EST by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

If we all walk away from our debts, whether we are individuals or countries, then, global corporations have no more power over us. Just walk away from it. Don't pay it. Do you really think that continuing to make your payments on your debt is going to make your future any better? it's only going to postpone the inevitable. But, if all of us, all together on one day say "we will no longer pay", the power that corporations have over us will collapse. I say to Greece, Spain, Portugal and Italy "just walk away from the debt". Your debt is to Goldman Sachs anyways - the very institution that caused your economic crisis and the global economic meltdown. We can die by a thousand cuts or we can stop the corporations from completely destroying our societies, our governments, and our very lives. Now! Haven't we waited too long to take action? How long should we wait to take real action after we have voiced our concerns (finally)? How long are we just going to talk?

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993 Comments


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[-] 5 points by pinker (586) 2 years ago

How about encouraging people to only pay cash and stop charging stuff. If you don't pay your debt, the rest of us will have to pay it for you in some other form. When I read these posts it always sounds like the poster wants to walk away from his personal debt, but wants someone to jump with him. You go ahead and walk away from your debt. Or you could just stop buying crap.

[-] 2 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

I agree. stop being a "consumer" and start being a "citizen". stop buying crap and step away from the crap that you really don't need. let's take our tax money and invest in public transportation and get out of our autos. instead of corporate welfare, lets have universal health care, not universal corporate welfare. as this movement grows and as the results of it become inevitable, then those that are trapped in mental transporter loop with capitalism and greed will vaguely begin to understand. right now, the corporations and the rich control our lives. we need to control our lives.

[-] 2 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 2 years ago

You're not agreeing with what Pinker said. Your post proposes stealing money from other people by promising to pay back debt when you borrow money, then just walking away from it and taking the money. There is a gigantic ethical difference between NOT borrowing money in the first place, and stealing money that you borrowed by not paying it back. Through days of talking about this, you still seem to be completely blind to the distinction between those two things. The former is personal financial responsibility. The latter is theft.

[-] 1 points by electrictroy (282) 2 years ago

Your post proposes stealing money from other people

It harms the corporations. It doesn't harm the citizens. I didn't cry when Montgomery Wards or Circuit Shitty went bankrupt, and I wouldn't cry if VISA or Mastercard went backrupt either. (Of course they won't really go bankrupt; they'll just lose a few million dollars as people default on their credit debt.)

[-] 2 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 2 years ago

It hurts me when you don't pay your debts! Lenders simply adjust their interest rates to ensure a constant profit. People like me who do pay their bills are the ones who pay when you steal money from lenders. Just like people who do pay for things in stores have to pay higher prices to cover store losses from all of the people who shoplift. You're passing your burden on to people who don't have your ethical deficiency. By costing the rest of the 99% money, you're hurting the movement.

[-] 0 points by electrictroy (282) 2 years ago

It hurts me when you don't pay your debts!

No it doesn't. If you were wise you wouldn't have any CC debt, and wouldn't care if interest rates went up. (And if you did have debt, then you too would simply refuse to pay it.)

These credit companies felt no guilt when they stole 1.5 trillion from your wallet (~15,000 per US home) so why should you feel you need to repay money to thieves?

[-] 1 points by Harper (13) 2 years ago

"If you were wise you wouldn't have any CC debt"

Hey guys I found this new exciting solution to poverty and misfortune

it's called, 'being wise'

you should try it sometime

[-] 1 points by screwtheman (122) 2 years ago

Where do you get they stole 15,000 per home?

[Removed]

[-] 1 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 2 years ago

Because I'm not a person who has completely rejected the system out of frustration with my inability to succeed in the current system, like you. The only way that I can avoid paying for your selfishness would be for me to join you in your theft? You're rationalizing a way out of your personal obligations, with no regard for the effect on other people. You're being socially irresponsible. You're stealing money from other people by refusing to pay back money that you borrowed and promised to pay back. To tell me that it won't hurt me as long as I also steal, with you, is vile and reprehensible.

This is one of the most popular posts on this forum, with the most replies. And a lot of them are positive. In favor of theft. That's shocking, disappointing, and this web page is a potential liability for this movement. If conservative bloggers start passing this link around then it will hurt the movement.

[Removed]

[-] 0 points by workhardplayhard (33) 2 years ago

bankrupt the corporations that employ thousands of people, sure nobody gets hurt.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

boy, are you dense.

[-] 1 points by davboz (79) 2 years ago

Nice, intelligent response. ME here lol-ing at you. Youso funnee!

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

do you mean your response right now or my response before?

[-] 1 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 2 years ago

No, I do understand your aversion to debt. I do understand what you're saying. I agree with that part. I avoid financing things, myself. The difference here is that you're advocating going into debt and then taking the money and running, which is very different from not financing things in the first place. You want to shift your burdens onto other people, which is NOT a socially conscious thing to do.

[-] 1 points by JesseHeffran (3903) 2 years ago

We played by the rules until we found out the rules were written by thieves. to keep on playing by the rules would be insanity.

[-] 1 points by davboz (79) 2 years ago

Au contraire small person. You advocate now a psychopathic response of ignoring the rampant damage you set out to do to the innocent. All in the name of proving to yourself that you can have some kind of impact. It's the ineffectual small guy (if you know what I mean) that feels no impact on the world around him and has no enjoyment from meaningful relationships that sets out to gang-screw millions of innocent people. You are closely related to the rapist but you are too lacking in self-knowledge to know it.

[-] 1 points by JesseHeffran (3903) 2 years ago

To be labeled a psycho by a psychotic world, is only allowing the heart to be unfurled

[-] 1 points by davboz (79) 2 years ago

No practical meaning.

[-] 1 points by JesseHeffran (3903) 2 years ago

Well, when it comes to rebutting any words of yo'rs, I'm mostly interested in practicing my prose. Your potty mouth would be loosing its sweetness if you were here, I'd make you toothless and full of fear.

[-] 1 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 2 years ago

You're entitled to think that way, but skipping out on debt is theft. So the ethical way to play by different rules would be to not borrow money that you don't intend to pay back.

[-] 1 points by JesseHeffran (3903) 2 years ago

that logic puts the cart before the horse.

[-] 1 points by davboz (79) 2 years ago

Yes, if all you know is the horse's ass, my friend.

[-] 1 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 2 years ago

Not if you have any interest in ethics or social responsibility. If you do, then borrowing money and THEN rejecting the idea of debt by not paying it back (while selfishly keeping the stuff that you bought) is putting the cart before the horse.

[-] 1 points by JesseHeffran (3903) 2 years ago

I can't give my education back, unless I start watching Foux News.

[-] 1 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 2 years ago

That's not a valid justification for refusing to pay back money that you borrowed. When you borrowed that money, you put pressure on yourself to find a way to pay back the money after learning a marketable job skill. When you borrowed that money, you signed an agreement with your lender to pay it back. You did NOT enter into an agreement with society that would assure you a job after you graduated. That wasn't the deal. Trying to shift the burden to society now is not ethical. Trying to blame society for your inability to find a job, and trying to use that as a justification for not paying back the money, is ignoring your own responsibility. You were the one who borrowed money. Nobody forced you to do that. You're on a slippery ethical slope, where only slightly down the slope is the idea of stealing from a shopping mall and rationalizing that the mall owes you because you can't afford to buy stuff legitimately.

[-] 1 points by JesseHeffran (3903) 2 years ago

MY mom taught me that my morality out weighs ethics which is a social construct. To put it mildly: If your friends jump off a bridge, would you fallow? If my nation is a slave to their debt, should I be a slave too. I'm not taking the easy rout. I tried to play by the rules, but corporate America does not like the ideas I espouse. So, I really have no way of paying my debt back. My ideas have relegated me to working class servitude; therefore, I'll never make enough to pull myself out of poverty. Because I know it is impossible for the gov't to take a portion of my check when I am below the poverty line, they will have to terminate my debt. ..............Why my Class is Better than no Class...................

As the ship travels through the ocean A disaster strikes of epic proportion The ship cracks and all feel the distortion Rats scamper to stern and bow or fall below From high above eagles swoop swift and low Minnows dance with the flow. The boat slowly begins to crack and sink The rats are pushed all the way to the brink They gouge the eagles with killer instinct All is chaos up above, while minnows dance in sync The eagles’ hunger is at last un abated The rats drag them down; all has faded. The minnows dance; the chum is raided.

[-] 1 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 2 years ago

The working class has no class when it struggles to rationalize theft. The widespread support here for the original poster's proposal to simply steal money and not pay it back is shocking, disappointing, and discrediting for this movement. Reneging on obligations should not be considered virtuous behavior by this movement or else that's going to put a very low cap on the potential level of support for the movement. Nobody who struggles to make good on their obligations is going to support a movement that encourages people to just not repay their debts.

[-] 1 points by JesseHeffran (3903) 2 years ago

This will be the last post I write to you. There is no difference between a strike and a refusal to pay. Striking in the face of atrocities is the American way. "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." George Santayana P.S. this forum is not the movement; It is just a forum of articulation. The movement is global and local. Outside the comfort of your home is where you will find the movement. It was a pleasure to speak with you. Read more: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Who_said_Those_who_ignore_history_are_bound_to_repeat_it#ixzz1d2JBPSm4

[-] 0 points by davboz (79) 2 years ago

Your mother's a psycho! ....OH! Oh! Ah could simply not resist! Ah needs me some learnin' in resistance ain't that right fun people! I jest knows ahm in tha right place. Man you peeps are so much fun.

[-] 0 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

exactly

[-] 2 points by Pertello (80) 2 years ago

The credit card companies love deadbeat debtors. They would love that you can't pay your balance at the end of the month because then the fun interest charges kick in. And if you can't pay those rediculous charges, then it's off to court for you! And suddenly it's Christmas for Chase, Bank of America and whatever pond scum lawyers they've hired to drag your ass into court and you're the poor Santa Claus that will make all their greedy little dreams come true!

[-] 1 points by Builder (4202) 2 years ago

How about encouraging the bankers to stop gambling with our money?

Avarice and risky gambling are the reasons the economy is in such a mess.

[-] 1 points by annonasandra (48) 2 years ago

Like college degrees. Crap.

[-] 1 points by steve001968 (31) 2 years ago

"If you don't pay your debt, the rest of us will have to pay it for you in some other form."

He/she doesn't care. This is about him or her and he/she doesn't care anymore about you, me, or anybody else than the creditors that they are advocating screwing over. Creditors who simply pass the cost along to everyone else in the form of higher prices for goods, services, loans whatever. To he or she the only thing that matters is ME ME ME.

[-] 1 points by jeivers (278) 2 years ago

Stop using credit is a good idea. I have closed every credit and frozen the interest rates so they cant raise them on me and YES I will pay off the $4,000 I have left and then guess what Cash only - which means Debit Card with a Credit Logo - as in cash in the bank (or credit union in my case since I stay away from the big banks).

[-] 1 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 2 years ago

Congratulations for being a respectable, ethical person and rejecting credit before buying a bunch of stuff that you can't afford, instead of buying the stuff and then skipping out on your debts like the original poster is suggesting. He doesn't comprehend that skipping out on debt and keeping all of the stuff is stealing and unethical and just vile. But I'm glad that at least some other people do.

[-] 1 points by annonasandra (48) 2 years ago

Good job! Let's ALL do this!

[-] 4 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

I think my idea is scary to the capitalists who are posting here. If everyone walks away from debt, the whole system collapses. that scares them. its not scary for people like me who the current system has destroyed their life over decades. So, for me, its all about sharing the pain brother. Its time everyone feels the suffering, the shame, the hopelessness brought on through no fault of their own, but, through a system that rewards unethical behavior. rewards greed, selfishness and indifference. we need a new system. a system based on the people's need, not profit and greed.

[-] 2 points by hivemind (131) 2 years ago

I think we need to all get together and ask for reform/regulation on these things. Walking away from debt is a bad idea because the lenders can do a lot more harm to us than we can to them by walking away. They'll harass people and their family members and even work places. They can take any money that you are surviving on right out of your account. They can take your things and take you to court.

I completely understand that there are very few options for people that can't get their banks to work with them for affordable payments. It's especially disturbing that banks like SallyMae profit from defaulters as they are also a debt collection agency. But the consequences are too much just to pretend it doesn't exist.

May I ask what type of debt you are struggling with?

[-] 2 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

ha ha ha... uh, let's see, first, government debt. because corporations pay no or less income tax than I do. I'd guess the first thing to tackle would be corporate welfare. the 30 most profitable corporations paid zero income tax in the past 3 years and many actually got tax credits. GE got 3.2 billion dollars in tax credit. between funding the ongoing wars and corporate welfare, we have been decimated. I am not a "human resource" to be used by corporations for profit. My country is not a parking lot for corporations to park their resources. My job is not something to be shipped off to another shore. But, the REAL debt I am struggling with is the moral and ethical debt of the relationship between MY government and big business.

[-] 1 points by SirPoeticJustice (628) from New York, NY 2 years ago

Yes

[-] 1 points by hivemind (131) 2 years ago

Isn't it a bit irresponsible to suggest people walk away from their debts when you don't appear to have any real debt yourself? If everyone DID just stop paying their debt, don't you think that it would have devastating consequences to everyone, even the 99%?

What do you think the results of walking away would be? This isn't a rhetorical question. I really want to know how you think it'll pan out.

[-] 1 points by JesseHeffran (3903) 2 years ago

it would be the synonymous substitution to the alarm clock. time to get up.

[-] 1 points by pk7 (64) 2 years ago

Agreed, that could have devastating consequences for the entire country and put us in a far worse condition. And no, tulcak, the 99% have not been devastated. Without doubt, I have many family and friends that are facing tough times right now, but some have arrived there due to very poor choices. However, the rest of my family and friends, all of which are the 99%, are doing well and would be devastated by the action you suggest.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

ok, here's my real answer: the 99% have already been devastated. HELLO! what not paying your debts would do is collapse the current corrupt system. the banks would collapse. and the "pain" the 99% would have to endure would be a pleasure compared to the unending slavery under the current debt system. A democratic economic system will form where the voice of the people will be THE voice in making economic decisions. Why is this not clear to you?

[-] 1 points by davboz (79) 2 years ago

You are not just wrong, dude, you are emotionally disturbed. And there are many like you now banded together. The sign of a sick humanity is that we now give so much credibility to a digitally organized band of the emotionally disturbed. BIG PHARMA where are you??? (Oh shit. Maybe this IS BigPharma's results.)

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

take the log out of your own eye before you try to take the splinter out of mine.

[-] 1 points by davboz (79) 2 years ago

Inspired by the tree-planter below, I see.

[-] 1 points by hivemind (131) 2 years ago

I think that there is a less volatile way to get the economy up and running again. What you're talking about might insight a lot of violence and if you're talking about tearing down the financial system completely you'll probably find that it would take many many years for us to find a new system before we go back to the old one, which would likely happen.

[-] 2 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

the current system is broken, it is spreading disaster and pain and death everywhere. if you think that we need more time to figure something out, you're an idiot. that is what OWS is about. time's up. time to take action and change the system. time for hesitating is over. grab you balls and jump into the water. no matter whats under the surface. why the timidity and fear? what happened to "Live Free or Die"?

[-] 1 points by hivemind (131) 2 years ago

Not everyone is as unhappy with things as you are. Many people don't equate the situation now to living in bondage and therefor don't feel that ultimate destruction or death are the only options. Your frustration is giving you tunnel vision. Nothing good has come from zealotry, if you want to have a successful operation you need to sit down, calmly, with others and think about how you want to do it.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

of course you are right. if you are doing "ok" then things don't seem so bad, do they? don't ask me or others to be reasonable or happy or to "sit down, calmly, with others". you obviously don't know anything about my life or anyone of the millions of other Americans who have struggled through this dark night all their lives. what a butthole you are. I'm tired of struggling and hoping and there are no more promises of "change" or "hope" that you can give us to pacify us. the only thing we will accept is to bring down the present system and give us back our freedom. if you don't understand that now, oh, we will teach you. watch out.

[-] 1 points by davboz (79) 2 years ago

I'm gonna have to resort to it. Didn't want to. But, YOU POOR THING! You either suffer from intense depression, severe inferiority complex, and HIGHLY distorted thinking. Probably all 3 and more. YOU are obediently carrying on Bill Ayers' work. Damn the damage you might do to everyone else, as long as you flog YOUR dummy and get YOUR nut! There is little else that I will allow myself to generate and feel hate for other than what you stand for. Utterly despicable.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

the beginning is near. I think you can feel it. you will lose your little pile of marbles and you'll share the pain. but, at least you won't be a fearful slave to corporations.

[-] 1 points by davboz (79) 2 years ago

Poor and destitute with a depleted 401k, I'll have you to thank. Aw hell. I'll just thank you now!

[-] 0 points by hivemind (131) 2 years ago

Ok. You've immediately checked yourself off as "crazy" by resorting to calling me a "butthole" while trying to conduct a proper conversation. And while I don't claim to know anything about you, you claim to know enough about me to make judgments.

I don't agree with the way things are working currently, but there is the way that sane people do it and then there is the way crazy people do it. Do you think that this country was founded on crazy people running around threatening to destroy everyone's financial lives? No. They sat down and had a plan.

People are more patient that you will give them credit for. History has shown us that hard times come and go, the great depression as awful as it was eventually ended. There is no reason to get up in arms over something that has been shown to improve in the past.

If you REALLY want to help people that are hurting, you will donate your time, money, and compassion to those that need it. That will help more than one person's sad attempt at causing a blood riot.

[-] 1 points by davboz (79) 2 years ago

Good for you hivemind. Man, we have to start speaking up against this "movement" - the way it's being driven, and by what ideals. I think many of them really are as misdirected and thoughtless as is this tulcak person. The talk-shows minimize these guys at the peril of all of us. They just say, "the hippies", "crapping on cop cars" (based on 1 picture) and so on. These guys are dangerous. I don't mean dangerous to the greed of some of the 1%. I mean dangerous to the future hopes, freedom, and prosperity of the 100%. There needs to be blowback on these pages to let them know they are NOT the 99% and most of us want to FIX the system as unlikely as that might be. WE go all-out Socialist and we are done for as America. Although THEY will be convinced of nothing we say, maybe the rest of America can see who it is these guys really are, and join in to start speaking up for correcting the real problems - most having to do with government. [Self-Disclosure: Definitely NOT the 1%]

[-] 1 points by Anonymoose (23) 2 years ago

I think we need more of these types of comments...moderate.

[-] 0 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

YOU need to remember that this movement IS the 99%. I don't know who you are, but, its a good chance that you are in the 99%. Either way, you're an idiot.

[-] 2 points by SirPoeticJustice (628) from New York, NY 2 years ago

The fact is - you are BOTH correct.

The way forward is to synergize your points of view.

We need MAJOR modifications to the current system for it to serve the people again.

A state-run National credit union instead of the federal reserve

temporary corporate profit caps that can be imposed and removed like the raising and lowering of interest rates.

etc etc etc

http://alchemicalreaction.blogspot.com/2011/10/2011-occupy-america-peoples-official.html

[-] 2 points by hivemind (131) 2 years ago

You obviously haven't read ANYTHING I've been saying. Yes I AM the 99% but it doesn't mean I have to agree with everything or even anything you say because you are proposing things that will HARM the 99%. You do the 99% no help as a representative. Your ideas will help no one. All it does is give you some sense of vengeance for the lots you pulled in life. You are only out for yourself. The 99%, we, do not need you.

[-] 0 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

hivemind (how revealing), the 99% has already been hurt. there is no more hurt that can be done. and your vision of a post-apocolyptic world because we let the banks fail and regulate corporations is laughable. do you not have any faith in the American people to take care of themselves without the helps of banks or corporations? I do.

[-] 0 points by Anonymoose (23) 2 years ago

No my friend, YOU are an idiot. This person is very reasonable and well spoken.

[-] 0 points by Scout (729) 2 years ago

so you don't consider paying a mortgage on a property which may really be only worth 50% of what it's been driven up to by artificial means to be bondage? remember what happened in Japan in the 1990s where mortgages were so large they had to pass them on to their kids ! F*cking ridiculous and criminal and look what happened then ? Real estate values totally collapsed and have never ever recovered.

[-] 1 points by hivemind (131) 2 years ago

I know, it's awful, and I don't think it's right but we need to take other measures than just walking away from our debts. We need to demand change from the government and protection from our own financial system. We need to be organized about things.

[-] 0 points by Scout (729) 2 years ago

come on then give some REAL examples and time frames ?

[-] 1 points by hivemind (131) 2 years ago

I think that there need to be regulations put in place. I think there need to be limits on who can get a loan and for what. I also think that for existing loans there should be limits on how much a person is forced to pay on any loan that is granted based on their existing debts and current employment. So the bank knows how much money you have to spend rather than just throwing payments at you and praying you can pay them. I also think that percentages should give an allowance for disposal income, with disposable income the money goes nowhere but the banks. I think that if we can get those things under control we might see an upturn that would prevent anyone having to walk away from their debts.

[-] 0 points by betuadollar (-313) 2 years ago

"Live Free or Die" is alive and well in America. It is the party of choice.

[-] 1 points by davboz (79) 2 years ago
  • hivemind - I'm fairly convinced that there are a lot who are this extreme. The worst case is that they may be largely ineffective in the end. Then the criminals in the government become all the more immune. I respect that you're trying to actually converse with them. You will teach them nothing though. But you DO need to find out who these people are. When most of one's case lies behind saying "you're an idiot", I think there's some thoughtfulness lacking here, to say the least.
[-] 1 points by SirPoeticJustice (628) from New York, NY 2 years ago

incite NOT insight

[-] 1 points by hivemind (131) 2 years ago

Thank ya!

[-] 1 points by nucleus (3291) 2 years ago

The old system is the problem.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

and "hivemind" (how telling a name is that?) YOU are the voice of the 99%? Obviously you are not. We just have to read your posts. You are not as clever as you think you are - and your under cover posts are not going to have any affect on this movement. It is too strong and too powerful. You ain't seen nothing yet. Just wait. I think you will be shocked that the people you think are so ignorant are not. You are the ignorant one. You really are.

[-] 1 points by nucleus (3291) 2 years ago

Dude, you need some professional help. I think your condition is called borderline personality disorder. Please contact the NYC Department of Health and Mental Hygiene. They can help you.

[-] 0 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

"borderline personality disorder"? why? are you a psychologist or a clinical psychiatrist? I don't remember being examined by you, but, if I do have "borderline personality disorder" maybe I wouldn't remember. maybe what you should have diagnosed me with is "Paranoid Personality Disorder". Many of the symptoms are the same, but, considering part of my statement of "your under cover posts", this would seem to indicate the latter condition and not the first. What do you think "Doctor"?

[-] 1 points by nucleus (3291) 2 years ago

As you are acting out a paranoid fantasy that I am masquerading as another individual, your diagnosis may well be more accurate than mine. You may be suffering from multiple assorted conditions simultaneously.

In either case, you should really get some help. Self-awareness is the first step in addressing your problems.

[-] 0 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

I find it highly improbable that you can make a diagnosis based on posts in a thread on the internet (invented by Al Gore). I suspect that you are suffering from a delusional disorder. You have the delusion of being a doctor of the mind and you are acting out that delusion by inappropriately (and without certification) making diagnosis based on trivial observations.

[-] 1 points by cmt (1195) from Tolland, CT 2 years ago

Nucleus appears to know his/her stuff.

[-] 2 points by davboz (79) 2 years ago

I'm with nucleus. You now have a second (see my other replies) and, with hivemind, a third opinion. Get help.

[-] 0 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

yes, its true. I have a shock therapy session now. So, I'll see you later. I just won't remember who you are. hugs and kisses all around. group hug!

[-] 1 points by hivemind (131) 2 years ago

I think that the best course of action for change is to have a new plan in mind before total destruction. You should make another post on the forum to get people discussing any ideas you have.

[-] 1 points by nucleus (3291) 2 years ago

The old system cannot be fixed because it already is.

The new system is already forming up, collective action based on autonomy and personal responsibility.

It would be nice to see the old system adopt these values and reform itself, but I don't know anyone who considers that even a remote possibility.

[-] 1 points by SirPoeticJustice (628) from New York, NY 2 years ago
[-] -1 points by betuadollar (-313) 2 years ago

Autonomy and personal responsibly are just BS catch phrases. There's no autonomy here, nor even a pretension of autonomy; and there is no responsibility, just a pass the buck and a buy for those too irresponsible.

It's just a bunch of errant kids having fun. You're not the first generation to take on the establishment. It's been going on for thousands of years.

[-] 1 points by nucleus (3291) 2 years ago

That's sad a sad world to live in. Why don't you help us create a better one?

[-] 0 points by betuadollar (-313) 2 years ago

haha.... I am.

[-] 0 points by Scout (729) 2 years ago

please explain what are the benefits to the next generation and the generation following of perpetuating a financial system which is based on grossly overinflated asset values? It's not about tearing down a financial system it's about allowing prices and values to adjust to natural levels for the benefit of everyone not just a handful of super rich oligarchs.

[-] 0 points by betuadollar (-313) 2 years ago

Have you ever heard of van dwelling? We started doing it in the 60s. Really. We took Chevy vans, which incidentally are hands down the best cargo van ever made, anywhere... and we turned them into portable homes. Many are living in them still.

[-] 1 points by annonasandra (48) 2 years ago

I've done that before as a tree-planter. It works. Easy to heat.

[-] 0 points by betuadollar (-313) 2 years ago

How do you feel about Urts and TeePees?

[-] 1 points by annonasandra (48) 2 years ago

I never lived in an urt or a teepee, but I did live in a treehouse once. It was good in the summer.

[-] 0 points by betuadollar (-313) 2 years ago

Wow, I think I like you.

[-] 1 points by frontierteg (137) from Kalamazoo Township, MI 2 years ago

It is completely illegal for a bank to take unauthorized funds from your account to make a loan payment without a court order. Any creditor, ex-spouse, etc... not just banks, can get your wages garnished if you owe them money. The loan contract you sign specifically states what collateral they can take. Home loan, they take the home. Car loan, they take the car.

A student loan is different. Because the US wants people to go to college, we created UNSECURED loans for college people. You can't get rid of it in bankruptcy because it if you could, every college student in the US would claim bankruptcy the day after graduation.

Why are people trying to walk away from their debt?

[-] 2 points by hivemind (131) 2 years ago

A lot of animosity is created by name calling, and it doesn't reflect well on you. The people that are trapped in student debt aren't "deadbeats". Just because someone isn't fortunate to land a white collar job when times are hard doesn't make them a deadbeat.

As for walking away. Many people tried hard to graduate with good grades, and many did. However there are no jobs to pay for their hard work. Some work fast food jobs while waiting for a chance to get into a real job, but for as hard as they work, it still doesn't pay their bills. Banks do no like to negotiate when people are having trouble paying. So these "deadbeats" run away from their debt. Some people flee the country and some people will go so far as to kill themselves.

Have you really never felt as frustrated as these people?

[-] 1 points by davboz (79) 2 years ago

Yes but who was missing when they were supposed to be taught how to NOT SIGN SOMETHING YOU AREN'T PLANNING TO HONOR!!! Responsibility! Ethics Morals. The EXACT thing that they accuse the greedy of. And by being hypocrites they are AGAIN being EXACTLY what they say they despise. I suspect much of their hate is driven by self-loathing. Witness the waaaay overdone emphasis on the LOVE meme while not displaying it in practice. I think they see in the greed of the 1% that which they feel in themselves and that anxiety causes them much grief.

[-] 1 points by frontierteg (137) from Kalamazoo Township, MI 2 years ago

I've modified my post, I no longer use the word "deadbeat", my bad.

"Trapped in student debt"? Dramatic interjections don't reflect well on you either.

All three of my daughters have minimum wages jobs and are going to community colleges for the first 2 years, saving as much as they can and paying for their college as they go. My eldest transfers to a 4 year college this fall. My 2 sons will do the same.

Yes, students have debt. Yes, stress makes some people suicidal. My first wife died of brain cancer 8 years after she was diagnosed. I went into serious debt try to keep her alive, and the 8 years of stress was unbelievable. At the end of it all I almost lost my house because of the money I owed. But I OWED THE DEBT. I made choices. The choices were my own and I have to take responsibility for them.

When I didn't have a job, I became a contractor. Most of my clients I got by offering to work for free for the first month because I knew if I worked my butt off they would want to keep me around after that. If you want a company to notice you, do something valuable for them for free.

I'm not doing great, but I am an adult and can honestly say that.

The people you refer to are "trapped (victims) of student debt". They don't seem to realize that they are SOOOO much better of than the masses without jobs who don't have degrees. Over the next 30 years, the people with degrees will probably get jobs, pay off their debt, work till their 80, then retire and die. The American Dream. The ones without degrees may be doomed to a short life of welfare and poverty.

Stop the self pity. Take some responsibility. Work with the banks instead of ignoring it or running from, you're just hurting yourself down the line. No one is obligated to save you from your own decisions.

[-] 1 points by davboz (79) 2 years ago

How do we start a movement of folks like you which would absolutely dwarf and smother this socialist disease springing up in our midst??? It's pretty unlikely, I know. Our brains respond to our own victories and successes as healthy individuals. Plus we are occupied (hmmm) with the fulfillment and enrichment of our lives, as well as the whole in the process. I'm glad you've made your case here. I encourage you to keep doing it.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

stop the self-pity? take responsibility? are you really asking that of the 99%? you obviously don't know anything about the widespread destruction, pain and misery that has been going on around you for decades. People didn't pay their debts not because they are dishonest or irresponsible you moron, they didn't pay because THEY DIDN'T HAVE JOBS. Their getting laid off didn't cause the economy to implode. The banks did that remember? and we bailed them out remember? why are people so obtuse and oblivious? Many of the 99% are college educated, like me, and that didn't do dick on helping us find a job. I've been unemployed more than I have been employed since I graduated. I've done everything from digging ditches to cleaning grease pits. I've been homeless and hungry through no damn fault of my own. Don't tell me to take responsibility, tell the banks and the corporations to do that. This is what this movement is about. you are a clueless moron with no compassion and you are so self-absorbed and self-centered, you can't see the pain and misery all around you for so long.

[-] 1 points by davboz (79) 2 years ago

Man! You have REALLY got to quit it with this 99% stuff. You are arguing your case RIGHT HERE with others of the 99%. That should be part of the inevitable Supreme Court case re: OWS. That would be the fact that you claim to represent the 99% of the population, that you base your existence upon that and you cling to that meme with everything you've got. The fact that what you represent - socialism, breakdown of capitalism, - is not wanted by 99% of the 99% should have merit in minimizing your "free speech" claims in terms of stopping 99% of the 99% from using our public spaces.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

again, that's some of the most convoluted logic I've heard. did it hurt?

[-] 1 points by frontierteg (137) from Kalamazoo Township, MI 2 years ago

Incorrect. I just don't have the victim slant you do.

Let's talk about the statement "Through no fault of my own". What is your degree in? What did you choose to pursue? I'm really interested.

Let me just warn you, there is a very old joke. Q. What is the most common thing a guy a with a Psychology degree says? A. "Do you want fries with that?"

There are litterally tens of thousands of jobs not being filled because college students chose the wrong path. Don't give me that "no fault of my own" crap. You choose poorly no you want a handout.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

you are totally wrong. that's because your ideology demands that you label people. you don't know me or my life or what my struggles have been. you don't know my determination and hard work and spirit. I am the 99% I am an American. What you are saying is that Americans who are unemployed or are victims of a corrupt system are lazy and want a hand out. How wrong you are. Go to a protest and talk to the people. They are young, old, republican, democrat. From all walks of life and they are our fellow Americans. Why can't you do that? What are you afraid of? That your ideology collapses and you have to learn to see the world in a new way? These are our people and they are good people. Why don't you at least wave to the neighbor across the lawn and maybe go talk with them?

[-] 2 points by frontierteg (137) from Kalamazoo Township, MI 2 years ago

Actually, 1 of my daughters is in Occupy Chicago and I fully support her.

Please, just answer the question. What degree did you choose to pursue?

[-] 1 points by native (29) 2 years ago

degree? are you kidding? this guy didn't go to college and he's never had a mortgage either. he had a min wage job and couldn't hold it, got fired, lived off credit until it got cut off and then left the country so he doesn't have to face the consequences of his pathetic life. He lives in prague now and reads from the Bin Laden book of hate. Probably was here on a student visa til he flunked out of school. A perfect example of how easy credit hurt us all.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

no. I won't. because its not important to the discussion. its just opening the door for you to personally attack me and not to discuss the real issue which is: corporate greed and corporate power. that is what you need to look at. not me. Almost all conservatives use this tactic. attack the person, not the argument. that's what we've been doing and that's why nothing has been done to change anything. I don't care who you are, I care about what you say and how you act and what you think. I don't care if you got a blow job in the oval office. I care about substance, not about yours or my short-comings (no pun intended).

[-] 1 points by davboz (79) 2 years ago

Unfortunately your argument brought your "personhood" into it not fronteirkeg. YOU submitted the topic. Then when you were going to lose ground on it you chose to label (hypocrisy) in order to back the other person away. That's dishonest. What was your degree in? If it was not a choice you thought through then you have less credibility in blaming anyone else for your non-success.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

that's some of the most convoluted logic I've heard. did it hurt?

[-] 0 points by frontierteg (137) from Kalamazoo Township, MI 2 years ago

Got it!

Let's talk about the issues then.

If the People (government) gives a bank assurances through law that any loan given to a special class of citizen, without collateral, will not be discharged through bankruptcy, and the bank loans several million dollars to this class of citizen, should the bank and the taxpayers of the US bail that class of citizen out if the economy goes bad?

[-] 1 points by hivemind (131) 2 years ago

I suggest working with banks over walking away 100%. All of my posts say so. But when banks don't want to negotiate, often times they don't, (SallieMae is a really bad one), there are little options. If this shit hits the fan for students that just can't make the payments, they need bankruptcy protection. Why should some jerk who bought a jaguar be able to file bankruptcy when a person (who just wanted to learn) can't?

I'm very sorry to hear about your wife. I've had a few loved ones that battled with cancer as well. But don't you feel that almost losing your house because your wife got sick is really wrong? Don't you think that it's wrong to choose between keeping yourself safe from financial ruin and keeping a loved one alive? Why do we have to make that choice?

Also, I did the community college thing (graduated in May), and then I went to a state school. Make sure your kids know where they are transferring to in and out. I and a lot of other students I know weren't able to transfer certain credits and were forced to stay in longer than we wanted to.

[-] 2 points by frontierteg (137) from Kalamazoo Township, MI 2 years ago

Thanks for the college credit advice, but my eldest already found out that only 60 of her 65 credits will transfer.

I guess I'm a very black and white person when it comes to finances and choices. I choose my wife's life over my house. I'd do it again in a minute. And I'm prepared to live with my choices. I don't think it's "wrong" to have to make those kinds of choices. I do think it's "tragic", "horrible", "sad", etc... But that doesn't relieve me of my responsibility.

What kind of father would I be if I walked away from my responsibilities? What would that teach my children?

The reason the jerk with the jag can walk away is because his big loans are secured against assets and the bankruptcy court will take all his equity, all his investments, all his bank accounts, and they will find every penny he's hidden, or transfers he's made in the last 3 years, and pay his creditors as much as they can be paid. That's what the bankruptcy court does and it's very good at it.

The reason students can't, is because the students have no collateral that the bankruptcy court could go after, and therefore no bank would ever give a student a loan for that amount. Big difference between a $500 credit card and $30,000 in student loans.

You look like your going down the right road. I love the occupy movement!!! It's just got to get focused on the right things.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

Because if everyone walks away from their debt, the current system will collapse. We can replace it with a democratic economic system where the people are THE voice in making economic decisions - not corrupt, immoral and dishonest corporations. I think I'm just going to copy and paste this from now on. I've answered this question 4 or 5 times already. And what a stupid question it is, really.

[-] 0 points by gforz (-43) 2 years ago

It won't collapse. They'll take your car, your house, your furniture, whatever's secured by your debt. Then get ready to pay cash for anything you want and forget about a home or car loan in the future. It actually might be good for people, but the banks will survive. They've got lots of businesses to lend to and good credit individuals. Liquidating credit for the middle class will just reduce the standard of living for them. Go for it if you wish.

[-] 1 points by steve001968 (31) 2 years ago

So let me ask you this: Since you want the bank to work with you (in the collective sense anyway) for affordable payments since the economy is bad. If the economy were booming and the bank came to you and said: You know the economy is doing much better than anyone could have predicted so we think it's only fair that we renegotiate your loan to a higher interest rate I suppose you would be OK with that huh? Of course you wouldn't for the same reason that the bank has no responsibility to renegotiate your loan terms because of a bad economy: It wasn't part of the original deal. And few banks profit from defaults in this economy, they are lucky if they can even get back the balance of the original loan.

[-] 1 points by frontierteg (137) from Kalamazoo Township, MI 2 years ago

I like the idea of all students loans having a variable rate tied to the prime interest rate.

[-] 0 points by raines (699) 2 years ago

uder0bamcare , the federal govt is in charge of student loans.

[-] 1 points by uptonight (2) 2 years ago

Asking "what if" the times were good, and banks re-negotiated rates "upward," presumes that they are already re-negotiating them downward. --which is not the case.

Furthermore, your "what if" is not unlike asking a person who's leg is broken, and is suffering terribly, "what if" both your legs were broken?

Walking away from debt -en masse- is an excellent idea, and if your (pro-banker) comment is any indication, it's an idea that obviously scares the pants off the blood-suckers at the top.

[-] 1 points by Scout (729) 2 years ago

it was on the news this morning that more and more economists are predicting US itself will have no alternative but to default on its debts - it has gone beyond the point of no return. Even banks have walked away from debts as in the case of Morgan Stanley, so why do these people on this board so strenuously preach about moral behaviour? there are many articles on the Internet to prove that declaring bankruptcy as a private person is by no means the end of the world and in any case who the hell would be interested in owning a house these days when values are predicted to go down even further by as much as 25 to 30%?

[-] 1 points by davboz (79) 2 years ago

Scout I believe they were talking about Greece.

[-] 0 points by Scout (729) 2 years ago

no they were not ! they were talking about debts on commercial real estate within the USA

[-] 1 points by davboz (79) 2 years ago

Oh OK. I know they've been worrying about the commercial side going under for some time. I'll have to read up for better understanding on that. Did that mean borrowers of commercial properties are going underwater and are having to default in the same manner as homebuyers have been?

[-] 0 points by Scout (729) 2 years ago

yes of course but on a much much grander scale. no I'm saying when some of these big institutions realised they had paid far too much for office buildings, shopping centres etc in some cases they dropped the ball and simply handed the keys back in the same way that the average Joe is doing with his house. No different.

I could write a book about the fraud that has gone on in the commercial property market during the 1980s and 1990s. And the criminal gross and deliberate over valuation of all types of commercial property. but you can claim something is worth something but getting somebody else to pay that amount is the litmus test! And that's where it will all come unstuck.

[-] 1 points by davboz (79) 2 years ago

Scout - You ask why "preach about moral behavior".....I'll tell you. The "non-moral" behavior goes back, at the LEAST, to the implication of bailout being at the very root of the GSE's and of the very banks themselves. THAT WAS THE POLITICIANS! If we imply a public bailout will be there for their private failures, therein lies the problem. The problem existed for years and years. It just hadn't manifested yet on the large scale. And they did it loooooong before anyone of us cared what was up. The Government not only let them take excessive risk, but encouraged it. Promoted it. Threatened banks to do it. (Acorn, Barak Obama, CRA) So all this takes root in the damned government from which the banks buy these incredibly risky home loans from the government housing agencies, and attempt to stabilize them by mixing them with better risk loans, and then selling out slices. Even as leverage cranked up & up & up Democrats name-called and race-baited in order to keep "rolling the dice" as Barney Frank said. http://tinyurl.com/2uuv3eu Had the banks, the lenders, the insurers felt that their risk level defined their likelihood of failure, and that if and when they failed they would actually go out of business, then they would have never grown so exponentially large. Failure of any one of them would not have meant systemic catastrophe. Probably wouldn't have happened in the first place because capitalism un-f***ed with is a beautifully self-correcting system. You are punished directly for taking too much risk because you know it's going to be on YOU. THAT is some of the moral case for Capitalism. The moral case for yourself is do you have any self-respect? If you believe that "if they did it then I can do it," it relieves you of moral responsibility and no answer to your question will satisfy you. You've already decided that it's o.k. to do what you're condemning others for. Good luck.

[-] 0 points by Scout (729) 2 years ago

no I am saying the whole system is a pack of cards with the banksters in collusion with the government simply trying to artificially prop up totally bizarre and artificial asset values. but then what do you expect with fractional reserve banking ?The whole system should just be allowed to collapse and purged and to start again

[-] 1 points by davboz (79) 2 years ago

I think you & I are largely on the same page. It's that freakin' collusion! And the distortion of a capitalism that, once upon a time was, and could be again, the best system on the planet. How else do citizens grow up already embedded with a working internal mechanism which seeks out self-satisfaction - and is further motivated by - achievement and success, resulting in healthy self-respect. In a godless society which honors false pride and arrogance as the surrounding environment, maybe Capitalism won't work. I don't know. Cultural and political powers are clearly favoring the latter.

[-] 0 points by Scout (729) 2 years ago

Well what can you say? When the government and the supposed regulators join and work together with the big business world then all standards of morality and decency go out the window and it becomes a jungle. look at the stock market. a government approved and legalised casino. That's why I advocate walking away from debt because where are the standards and who exactly are going to enforce them? i am not a mug ! I'm going to follow the standards that the supposed leaders think is acceptable.

[-] 1 points by hivemind (131) 2 years ago

You got a better idea?

[-] 2 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

yes, all of us walk away from our debts and kill the present system.

[-] 2 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

yes, all of us walk away from our debts and kill the present system.

[-] 2 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

yes, all of us walk away from our debts and kill the present system.

[-] 1 points by armchairecon1 (169) 2 years ago

i think goldman sachs is smart enough to actually hold the debt themselves.

[-] 1 points by davboz (79) 2 years ago

You don't care about the "peoples' needs". Get outta here with that. You have pent up frustration and this is your masturbation.

[-] 1 points by davboz (79) 2 years ago

Misery loves company. As I said before, when you start to affect the retirement funds of millions of families and retirees; when you cause localities to spend sufficient millions to clean up your messes; when regular folks get tired of not being able to feel secure in and to use our parks and public spaces and of being bothered by your noise; when small businesses lose their livelihood and have to shut down, killing more jobs and causing more families to have economic insecurity, the story will tell it as YOU being the cause and they will start coming after you. Their sons will be coming after you. Hey, it is easy to organize, right? It won't be me but I'm just sayin'.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

oh no, I'm ascairt now! there is nothing anyone can do to make my life and the lives of millions of other Americans any worse than they have been for the last two decades while you've been ignoring it. you, you're kind, the banks and the corporations have overplayed your hand. you haven't left us anything more to lose. so, we have no fear now. none. and we definitely have nothing more to give or to lose. are you gonna hold your breath now? followed by falling on the floor for a good tantrum? you are pathetic really.

[-] 1 points by davboz (79) 2 years ago

fool

[-] 1 points by henoktg (66) 2 years ago

That is no practical. With the existing system “Money = Debt”. If there is no debt then there is no money. Before you abolish the debt money you need debt free money, money similar to what Abraham Lincoln issued "the Greenback" and then systematically faith out the debt money.

But I’m curious to see Greece default and the following domino effect.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

I can't wait.

[-] 1 points by Pottsandahalf (141) 2 years ago

So you're saying that we should Reneg on our agreements whenever we feel like it? That's spineless and dishonest. I worked hard to pay of my debt- I kept my promise to pay it back.

Come to think of it, reneging on a debt was exactly what Nazi Germany did. After hitler took power, he decided to not pay back the debts that were owed after the treaty of Versailles. So we can be like Nazi Germany and reneg on our agreements, or we can keep our honor and pay them back

[-] 1 points by Rael (176) 2 years ago

Of course the idea is scary. It should be scary to anyone with more than a 4th grade education.

[-] 2 points by Frizzle (520) 2 years ago

Change is always scary, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't happen. If the world keeps on the course it is now, humanity will wipe itself out. We have to get out of this system one way or another. Or we are doomed for extinction.... That to me is a whole lot more scary.

[-] 0 points by Rael (176) 2 years ago

So debt will wipe out humanity? Really? Explain how that would happen.

[-] 1 points by Rael (176) 2 years ago

You tell me to learn so teach me. How will debt wipe out humanity? Can you explain this in a logical manner?

[-] 1 points by henoktg (66) 2 years ago

watch the video attached.

[-] 1 points by Rael (176) 2 years ago

I watched part of it. It seemed sophomoric and didn't really address what you implied that it did. It seemed like a very simplistic cartoon depiction of the issues.

[-] 1 points by Frizzle (520) 2 years ago

not just debt. And there need to happen a lot more to get on the right track then just wiping dept. It could be a starting point though.

[-] 1 points by soloenbarcelona (199) from Barcelona, CT 2 years ago

To be honest I think this is what just happened in Greece. Not really understand the real situation, but I thought they just whipped half of there debts last week. And in a democracy, I think at a certain moment, I can come forward as the next prime minister, or president with the plan, that if I´m elected I will change the financial system and just stop paying debts. If people are in enough trouble (like Greece) the elite will quickly settle for a better deal for them (just pay half then). Anyway, I like your idear, but got the idear it´s sort of happeing already.

[-] 1 points by yasminec001 (584) 2 years ago

If enough people are on the bandwagon, then people won't be scared to jump on.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

long-term misery and hopelessness take away the fear. that's because there is nothing left to fear, nothing left to lose when its all been lost. when you've been told you have 3 months to live, sky diving doesn't seem that dangerous.

[-] 1 points by yasminec001 (584) 2 years ago

Very true words, tulcak. And for those who have found this through spiritual awareness, there is even greater moments to be had in life.

It seems when there's nothing left, there's everything left.

[-] 1 points by davboz (79) 2 years ago

Spiritual awareness. Oh my freakin' Gawd!! LOUD F'ing LOL!!!

[-] 1 points by yasminec001 (584) 2 years ago

I find nothing humorous here except for you.

[-] 1 points by annonasandra (48) 2 years ago

It seems when there's nothing left, there's everything left.

That's exactly right. It's called "deconstructionism," in English teacher speak. It's called "compost" in farmer speak, both of which I happen to know something about.

And by the way, there's no more fertile ground than compost. Hurrah for compost.

[-] 1 points by davboz (79) 2 years ago

That is when it is really in the best interest of the biological system within a certain environment to decompose. When it is, it is time, and the whole of the micro-biology participates. This is not the case in your shared vision. Calling yourselves the 99% does not make it so. Even the most intense self-delusion will not make it so beyond the limits of your imagination. Most of the supporting voices around the country are not yet aware of your true desires. They just think you want some student loan relief, get the banks to remove some fees, get the corporations to start hiring. Many millions do not yet know you do want the downfall of our economic system and to replace it with something that will by definition have to be more limiting and repressive than could have ever been imagined for America.

[-] 1 points by yasminec001 (584) 2 years ago

Yes. When the ideologies and human structures of today break down, there is EVERYTHING to be done. A fresh slate. Which could all be organized very concisely given our intelligence and mass communications.

[-] 1 points by davboz (79) 2 years ago

What will you name it? Fascist socialism was never what was intended for this nation. It isn't in the "DNA". If you succeed with your aims please change the name of the country.

[-] 1 points by yasminec001 (584) 2 years ago

..whoah are you comparing me to Hitler?

Any logical person who can objectively read the Hirsch Report knows this country is going to shit. It's only a matter of time. And it's not because America (the land) and the original values invested in the Constitution were corrupted. It's the people.

The government is well on its way, or is already there, in becoming completely careless and nonchalant about its people. Why bother caring? World War III? Probably gets rid of their problem of too little resources, too many people anyways. They have a seed bank of all species of life. They have safes. They're completely fine.

I'm talking about the rest of the population of this world that is going to have to think for themselves. Either that, or we can all ball up and organize this chaotic destruction looming over the horizon so we can ensure the survival of many. So we can come closer together as a human family, depending on each other instead of machines and the elite few behind the curtain pulling all the ropes.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

the older I get, the more aware I am of my own and other's mortality. the knock on the door by death becomes louder and more frequent. I'm scared. But, it makes me feel less afraid to do some things, but, in true human form, it makes me more afraid. It makes me more convinced that this isolation and this indifference that we have had as a people has made us all insane. Its not natural. We need to be part of a loving caring community where we nurture and comfort each other. Capitalism has got to go. Consumerism has got to go. We need a new system, a system of democratic and human economics where the needs of the people and the individual are the highest considerations. not profit and greed.

[-] 1 points by kerbauer (74) 2 years ago

Tulcak, we as a planet are evolving and it is a difficult time as our planet is going through labor pains bringing in a new world. I know it sounds like new age crap, but look at how far we have come in just a few weeks! Fear is the last chain on your soul that keeps you bound to the old ways. Once you free those chains of fear you become evolved yourself:) Karma dictates your fears so once you remove all fears, you are working through your own soul's evolution!

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

I think you are right, but, consumerism and corporations have worked very hard to make us feel isolated and to isolate us. we need each other even after the fear is gone. we humans need to live in a nurturing and caring community.

[-] 1 points by kerbauer (74) 2 years ago

Agreed! I believe that is what the new earth will bring but we may not see this new world in our lifetimes. We are planting seeds that future generations can harvest. We are living in a difficult time and have been programmed by birth to go with the flow or else suffer big consequences. It takes courage to break out from the norm and you will need to rely on others for support and a feel of community. Lucky for us we have many networks who believe the same things we do.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

what encouraging words. Its been a long time. Thanks for that. I feel like I belong to a community already!

[-] 1 points by kerbauer (74) 2 years ago

Not only are you part of a community, but you are part of a movement that is here to change this world. People who say hurtful things on here are still in the dark. I think we are lighthouses bringing light to a dark world. The purpose of a lighthouse is to go to dark places and shine light to bring others home. Don't let these people bring you down and work on your own evolution and know you are supported by many loving souls who want a brighter future for the planet.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

thanks kerbauer! the world could be a wonderful place. we can build upon the occupy movement and make communities where people nurture and care for each other. that's what we are supposed to be, not slaves, human "resources" for corporations. we should be in charge. in control of our own lives and living in an world of compassion and care.

[-] 0 points by raines (699) 2 years ago

yes, more people are fed up with your garbage.

[-] 1 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

WEll, put a plan together then. If you call for a collapse, and have nothing to offer when it does, well....thats just dangerous.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

no plan dangerous? how can it be more dangerous than what we are in now? unless you are personally doing well and can't understand what all the big fuss is about.

[-] 1 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

How can a governement collapsing and the good people not have a plan dnagerous? Gimme a break. Go read a history book. If the good people arent ready to establish authority, those who are more dangerous than the previous will rush to the power.

Duh...

[-] 0 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

do you remember 2008 at all? the bank bailout? you don't think the present system is at risk already and that the American people haven't already been damaged? I didn't talk about the government collapsing - but, you're probably confusing corporations with government - oh, and you'd be right.

[-] 0 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

you ARE an idiot. you just been mouthing off and didn't take the time to shut the F up to listen to the plan I laid out. try this: 1. shut pie hole, 2. listen., 3. think

[-] 1 points by steve001968 (31) 2 years ago

You have no plan. Your so-called 'plan' of people not paying their debts IS WHY THERE IS A RECESSION NOW. Your wannabe 'plan' has been tried. The current economy is the result. What are you? 12?

[-] 0 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

what "wanna be plan"? you mean "reaganomics"? oh, and I also see by your response that you have two user names. what's your job? do you work for a big corporation or are you a free whore?

[-] 1 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

Hey moron, I was talking to hahaha. Try following the thread before jumping down someones throat...

[-] 0 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

are you drunk?

[-] 0 points by raines (699) 2 years ago

How old are you? What do you do for food , clothing and shelter?

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

I'm old enough to need food, clothing and shelter. But, I'm young enough to know I need freedom more. I need freedom more than I need my life. Live free or die. Somehow, a ragtag group of people in a public park in a major city of the world managed to feed, cloth, and shelter themselves. And, despite the violence of the administrative system of corporations and their foot soldiers (i.e., the police), despite the removal of generators for heat and electricity on the eve of a huge snowstorm, this ragtag group from all races, ages and political slant from across America are determined, strong and committed to make change. THAT, my friend is what it means to be AMERICAN and I am happy beyond my ability to describe to see it again. What you need to do is to let go of your selfishness. Being American, no, being human means to be part of a community of people who nurture and care for each other and who look around at other people's misfortune and want to help instead of condemn.

[-] -1 points by raines (699) 2 years ago

That rag tag group has collected about $700,000 , and it's in a bank.Other people are the ones supplying them with food , clothing and shelter. You have not answered my questions about your age and where you get your food , clothing and shelter.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

I answered you question. You just don't like it. Obviously, you don't like the movement as it threatens your status quo. You are looking for an argument, not to learn anything or contribute your efforts. The OWS money which is money from the protesters all over the country, republican and democrat, and less than $20 on average is how the American people are taking action. The movement is keeping its money at Amalgamated Bank, which was started in the 1920s by a garment-workers union and was until recently 100 percent union-owned. That sole union ownership ended in September just as the protests were starting. Nine days after the demonstrations began, Amalgamated sold 40 percent of its stock to two of America's best-known investors, Wilbur Ross and Ron Burkle who have good relations with unions. But, the local occupy movements rely on local donations. This is truly the American people's movement.

[-] 0 points by raines (699) 2 years ago

No, you did not state your age. No, you did not answer what YOU do for food , clothing or shelter. Your own words say that the ragtag group has provided for themselves. You then talk about the money you've been given. When other people give you things, YOU are not providing for yourdelf. Your group is union backed, union owned.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

oh, I see. so, your frustration is at me and at the movement. not at wall street?

[-] 0 points by raines (699) 2 years ago

Why won't you answer a direct question?

[-] 1 points by davboz (79) 2 years ago

This is what they do, raines. Like most good "progressives" they accuse YOU of behavior they themselves are committing BEFORE you get a chance to call THEM on it. Becoming argumentative while they accuse YOU of it. They see self-delusion as the "freedom" they believe they are in search of. They were taught the methods "by any means necessary".

[-] 0 points by raines (699) 2 years ago

You're right!!!!

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

why don't you? do the corporations control our government? did the banks and corporations destroy the lives of average Americans?

[-] 0 points by raines (699) 2 years ago

1 Influence , somewhat, control, no.#2 I can only speak for myself.I am an average American. My life has not been destroyed.

 Now, you answer my questions. How old are you?What do you  do for food, clothing and shelter?
[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

no. I won't answer your questions. what are you going to do about it? are you used to telling people who are afraid of you what to do. fuck off asshole. you sound like a rich spoiled brat who is used to telling people what to do. you are definitely not the average American I know. The average American I know is patient and kind and not a dickhead.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

I knew you would say that.

[-] 0 points by raines (699) 2 years ago

You responded exactly as I thought you would.

[-] 0 points by betuadollar (-313) 2 years ago

Based on who's need? Your need?

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

look around for the first time and see the misery there. that will answer your question. or have you taken the time to look around and really see?

[-] 0 points by betuadollar (-313) 2 years ago

I've seen the misery in America. But we're a very elastic people.

[-] 0 points by WillBill (9) 2 years ago

I think your idea is among the top ten dumbest ideas in human history. You would do better to stick a fire cracker up your butt and light it.

[-] 1 points by davboz (79) 2 years ago

Ha Ha! Yea! Lol. I love ya, brother. Awesome!!!

[-] 1 points by SirPoeticJustice (628) from New York, NY 2 years ago

GNAHL

[-] 0 points by pinker (586) 2 years ago

It's not scary because you'll be hard pressed to get others on board. Personally, I like my home and want to keep it. We are adults not capitalists.

[-] 2 points by bluedoghunter (3) 2 years ago

Hey dumb ass, the reason we're in this mess is because people have been walking away from their debt.

Your debt is YOUR debt. Pay it back. You want to Goldman Sachs out of business? Start living within your means, and stop stealing from this country.

[-] 0 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

I'm so hurt. you're an idiot...

[-] 2 points by bluedoghunter (3) 2 years ago

Nice intelligent reply. Pay your bills dead beat.

[-] 0 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

thanks. no, I won't. too bad.

[-] 0 points by Perspective (-243) 2 years ago

Well said.

[-] 2 points by Katreflect (3) 2 years ago

Don't you realize that walking away from the debt will just result in more people losing their jobs? Corporations are made of people most of which are the "99%".

[-] 0 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

the jobs will be lost anyways if we do nothing. so, not really a good point.

[-] 2 points by brooce (65) from Minneapolis, MN 2 years ago

How irresponsible! You have shown your maturity level as well as NO PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY. You get a pass from being called ignorant-due to you lack of maturinty and wisdom.

[-] 2 points by Teacher (469) 2 years ago

Or, not go into debt in the first place. Its no one's fault that you make bad choices. That is not what OWS is about. You are playing into the hands of everyone that thinks we are lazy, entitled whiners. Stop it, please.

[-] 1 points by gestopomilly (497) 2 years ago

.. you are forced to have a credit score to rent, get a job, car insurance price is based on credit score etc. so yes.. the government DID force everyone to take out loans.

[-] 0 points by Scout (729) 2 years ago

The Collapse Of Our Corrupt, Predatory, Pathological Financial System Is Necessary And Positive

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/guest-post-collapse-our-corrupt-predatory-pathological-financial-system-necessary-and-positive

[-] 0 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

read my previous post. its the banks that caused the problem. not the people who are unable to pay their debts. where do all these dumb asses come from? recap for dummy: 1. 2008 - bundled sub-prime mortgages are sold as "safe bets" especially to Greece., 2. the top 30 most profitable corporations pay zero income tax (GE got 3.2 billion dollars back in tax credits), 3. corporate profit since 2008 is up 128%, 4. 88% of real revenue in America went to corporate profit, only 1% went to salaries and wages, 5. wages have gone down in 10 years not up.

[-] 2 points by Teacher (469) 2 years ago

You signed the paper. I lost my house to foreclusure, I'm not crying to anyone.

Everything you just listed is true but none of it explains why people should walk away from personal debts that they voluntarily accumulated.

[-] 1 points by JesseHeffran (3903) 2 years ago

You know i would have never even chose to go to college if all the blue collar jobs were not going over seas. I don't even like pretentious, edgumacated twits. Their noses are too far up in the air for me to even relate to them. But i have to eat so I borrowed money, having listened to the seemingly practical wisdom of the era, and now I find out education is just another American hustle, one of many. So i'll just go back to the ghetto and live where honesty is in stronger demand. At least there, hustlers get their just desserts. Society members stand to learn more in the poverty stricken areas than they learn in the supposedly civil portion.

[-] 0 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

because you owe a "debt" to a corporation that is subsidized by your tax money and who was bailed out with your tax money. If we all walk away from our debts, the banks that caused this economic and social crisis will collapse. that's why.

[-] 2 points by Teacher (469) 2 years ago

They will take everything you have and everything you will ever get.

[-] 0 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

they already have.

[-] 2 points by Teacher (469) 2 years ago

you have a computer. They will put a garnishment on your wages as well.

[-] 1 points by jeffersonjackson1913 (37) 2 years ago

Banks can't repossess property.

[-] 0 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

oh no! I'm shivering in fear. PLEASE! what the hell else can they do to me that they haven't already done? if that's a threat, its a stupid one.

[-] 2 points by Teacher (469) 2 years ago

They aren't threatening you. They will take EVERYTHING you own. I have seen it. I'm not saying its right, I just don't want people walking away from debts that they signed up for only to get the corporate boot stomped on them.

[-] 0 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

sorry, still not scared. maybe, its because I'm an American. Live Free or die.

[-] 1 points by jeffersonjackson1913 (37) 2 years ago

THIS! I firmly believe the focus of this movement needs to be on monetary reform. Banks should not be issuing currency. They have complete control over it.

[-] 2 points by Riott (44) 2 years ago

I feel Credit is the nail in the coffin for the pending economic collapse. We've been raised in a world to use credit to offset our income. Now it's standard practice which is why it will collapse.

It is only a matter of time till credit hits a ceiling. We've only limped a long for the past 2 decades because credit carried us. Once the ceiling is hit, not enough will be issued to offset accumulating debt, interest, and inflation.

The System WILL collapse. It is inevitable.

[-] 2 points by DontMesswUS (11) 2 years ago

your a fool for thinking that... your debts dont die with you.. they haunt your children and their children and so on.. and countries cant walk away from debt.. the system wont collapse.. all of a countries debt is back by its assets.. lets say america doesnt pay.. america turns into china.. so please stop smoking out before you get on here and type.. you sound like a fool

[-] 0 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

you are making a clearer case for my suggestion of walking away from debt. in fact, you've strengthened my resolve never to pay my debt back.

[-] 1 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 2 years ago

You're so proud of stealing, it's dumbfounding. Most thieves aren't so proud of it that they would brag about stealing in public. That's a profound character flaw.

[-] 1 points by DontMesswUS (11) 2 years ago

I told you, you dont make sense

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

what?

[-] 2 points by MisguidedYouth2 (165) 2 years ago

Loon alert loon alert! Wood, wooooo, loon alert loon alert! Quick moderators, keep an eye on this one. What will he say next that will put this movement 60 degrees further out on the fringe

[-] 2 points by lifesprizes (298) 2 years ago

You might be onto something here. This would turn the system in a different direction as no more money would be created on the issued debt. The computer systems would start counting money backwards and with no interest coming in no new money would be created.

[-] 2 points by creativen8tive (3) from Bend, OR 2 years ago

The system is established in such a way as to set you up, just to knock you down. If we as a people decide to separate from the Holy Roman Empire, at some point the system will crumble. Remove the strings from your backs! Stop being puppets!

[-] 2 points by GeorgeMichaelBluth (402) from Arlington, VA 2 years ago

Umm, don't get into it?

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

umm... don't get into what? employment? a good economy? a level playing field? you mean, get those?

[-] 1 points by GeorgeMichaelBluth (402) from Arlington, VA 2 years ago

Debt, sorry thought that was self explanatory

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

no, debt is not self-explanatory. you assume that everyone thinks (or should think) like you. most don't. try using complete and clear sentences.

[-] 1 points by GeorgeMichaelBluth (402) from Arlington, VA 2 years ago

Everyone should think like me

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

clear as a bell.

[-] 1 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 2 years ago

Debt. Don't get into debt. Don't borrow money and lie about your Intent to repay it and then refuse to pay it back. That's immoral. Instead, demonstrate that you don't need the banks by not borrowing money in the first place. Walking out on debt that you promised to repay is dishonest and immoral.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

uh, you just don't get it do you? If I had had a job, I would have paid the debt. No job = no money. Do you understand this? And, are you really talking about honesty and morality as you talk about banks and corporations? really?

[-] 2 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 2 years ago

Of course I understand that. Get a job! Protesting to demand a better life probably isn't going to work out for you anywhere near as well as learning a marketable skill, getting a job, and avoiding debt. The reason why so many people respond to this protest with "Get a job!" is because we did all of that. We did it the hard way. When we see somebody spending their energy protesting to demand more from other people instead of spending their energy improving themselves, it just feels like we're being mugged by homeless people who have no interest in hard work. Unemployment in some sectors is very low right now. In tech it's under five percent, and it's always low in tech. Same for health care. Learn a new skill and get a job.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

get a job? what job? have you talked to any of the recent graduates that haven't been able to find a job. it strikes me as a fundamental flaw in your mental processing to suggest that these young people who worked hard and studied hard for at least four years are now suddenly lazy and have been all their lives and that they just don't want to work. you're an idiot.

[-] 0 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 2 years ago

You must have missed the part where I spent weeks offering jobs to people here and didn't get a single applicant.

[-] 0 points by Spankysmojo (849) 2 years ago

Been reading your post...I need a job. Still have openings? How do I proceed?

[-] 1 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 2 years ago

I need test engineers for a Ruby on Rails web application, who can wite behavioral specifications with a testing tool called Cucumber. You don't need to already have any experience with any of that if you're willing to learn using free online training resources. It would take a few weeks for somebody with the aptitude but with no experience to learn enough from free online resources in order to qualify by building a simple web app with a small test suite. I can point you to the free training resources and give you the assignment for the qualification app if you're interested.

[-] 0 points by Spankysmojo (849) 2 years ago

Paid training or scam?

[-] 1 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 2 years ago

I'm the CTO of a technology startup. I'm trying to create a job for somebody.

[-] 0 points by Spankysmojo (849) 2 years ago

Shoot. I can't promise but I will look at it. Need to know about pay though. May not have time for it because I can't buy food so I may have to try McDonald's job for now.

[-] 0 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

really, what jobs? do you have some openings? post it here and I'll repost.

[-] 1 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 2 years ago

I spent weeks posting about the jobs that I have available. Then I gave up. I did not get a single applicant. And I definitely would not hire a guy who brags about stealing on the Internet.

[-] 0 points by Spankysmojo (849) 2 years ago

Not sure what you're talking about but if you offered real jobs then real people would take the. It really is that simple. You told me about some vahue thing you call a job but what is it? Learn a system? Do a class? What? What? What job?

[-] 1 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 2 years ago
[-] 0 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

you're full of it, and you're an idiot. go away.

[-] 1 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 2 years ago

And you're a guy with a warped sense of ethics who thinks that it's cool to brag about stealing from other people. That's a far worse insult than the word "idiot".

[-] 0 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

ok, i'm duly insulted. big deal

[-] 1 points by SmartAlx (59) 2 years ago

Ignoring predatory lending for a moment, you realize the system is designed to put people in debt. What is money after all but a loan made to someone. That dollar in your paycheck, it was paid to your employer by a client or customer. That client got the money from his employer and that employer got it from his client and so on but eventually the trail follows back to a bank loan, where the money was created.

[-] 2 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 2 years ago

Nobody is forcing you to take money and promise to pay it back. If you're morally opposed to debt then you should also be morally opposed to lying and taking money with no intention of repaying it, because theft is a heck of a lot more immoral than loaning money to somebody. If you object to the concept of debt then don't borrow money. BEFORE you borrow money is your opportunity to object to the concept of lending. Taking money and then just running away and not paying it back is stealing.

[-] 1 points by soloenbarcelona (199) from Barcelona, CT 2 years ago

stealing is not good, but you are in enormous debt if you want it or not. It´s just your goverment that makes the desicions, you got no say in it.

[-] 2 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 2 years ago

Did our government somehow force you to borrow money? You had the option of protesting against the lending system, but if you borrowed money then you missed that opportunity. If you borrowed money, then you took money and you promised to pay it back, and if you don't then you're stealing money. You can't allege unethical behavior from the banks while simultaneously bragging about stealing money from them. That makes no sense. It discredits this movement's allegations of unethical behavior from the banks. If you object to lending then don't borrow money.

[-] 1 points by gestopomilly (497) 2 years ago

already told you.. yes.. you are forced to have a credit score to rent, get a job, car insurance price is based on credit score etc. so yes.. the government DID force everyone to take out loans.

[-] 1 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 2 years ago

You're forced to have a credit score to get a job? As an employer, that is news to me.

But you answered a different question than I asked. I didn't ask if you're forced to have a credit score. I asked if you're forced to borrow money. Specifically, is somebody forcing you to be financially irresponsible and borrow more money than you can pay back, to buy things that you can't afford?

[-] 1 points by gestopomilly (497) 2 years ago

yes you must borrow in order to get a credit score in order to be allowed to participate in living in america. and yes.. many if not most employers are using this tactic for screening purposes. Insurance companies use this information to decide how high your premiums are. so yes the government forces everyone not wanting to live under a bridge to borrow money in order to be able to survive.How? because they allow a private orginazation unregulated to exert this much power over the lives of the citizenry

[-] 1 points by soloenbarcelona (199) from Barcelona, CT 2 years ago

I personaly will always pay my personal debts. I calculate, borrow the minimum and always expect the worst when it comes to my future incomes. But I´m an economist and even lucky to be from a wealthy family. I don´t agree with the moneysystem as it works now and do expect mayors changes in the short future (and last week already where banks just forgive 50% of Greece debts as a gesture of goodwill I supose) Most nations are so past there borrowing limits, that just stop paying is the only option if you believe life has more value then money. (Which is not the case, but you could argue: "should we steal or should we kill?)

Anyway, if you are interested in the world economy and debt, combining it with idears to give Occupy wall street a meaning on the long run, I can advice yo this presentation from an Autralian somewhat conspirational extremist. I think he is quit right in lots of ways. Up to you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQT2K75auuU&feature=share

[-] 1 points by gestopomilly (497) 2 years ago

exactly.. corporations have stopped cash flow. the life line to any economy

[-] 0 points by hillary (252) 2 years ago

You DO realize that you can work and SAVE money so you can buy that LCD TV instead of using your HELOC, right?

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

why would I want an LCD TV when I'm hungry. I'd rather buy food. Oh, and since I can't get work, I can't save money. why are we in this state? banks and corporations. the unemployed didn't cause the 2008 economic implosion, the banks and corporations did. remember? and remember that big business and the government bailed themselves out. should have taken that bailout money and paid off everyone's mortgages instead. after all, it is our money.

[-] 0 points by raines (699) 2 years ago

In a previous post you said that you had a job.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

I do have a job. It doesn't pay much. My budget is very tight. And, I'm worried about the coming winter weather. I don't have enough to buy a coat. So, I'm not exaggerating when I say my money is for eating and having a roof over my head. Not for LCD TV's. This is my reality and the reality of millions of hard-working, honest Americans. We've been pushed up against the wall and we have nothing left to lose and we have nothing to fear anymore. So, the collapse of the banking system just doesn't seem to be that big of a deal for us.

[-] 1 points by MeMyselfandI (85) 2 years ago

Planning to walk away from the debt you owe excludes you from the ranks of honest Americans.

[-] 0 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

war is peace

[-] 0 points by MeMyselfandI (85) 2 years ago

Theft is Theft. Scum is Scum.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

and dumb is dumb

[-] 0 points by raines (699) 2 years ago

It does for America.

[-] 0 points by hillary (252) 2 years ago

In a fractional financial system, a bailout does not equate to free money for the bosses.

Read and Learn.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

the bailout money was tax money. collected from the 99% but not from the 1%. GE paid zero taxes in the past three years and even got a 3.2 billion dollar tax credit. 88% of real national revenue went to corporate PROFIT, only 1% went to wages and salaries. you're an idiot.

[-] 1 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 2 years ago

I'm glad to see that you call everybody who doesn't agree with you an "idiot" and not just me.

[-] 0 points by hillary (252) 2 years ago

Corporation get tax breaks so they can increase staffing or increase wages and benefits. It doesn't equate to free money for the bosses.

Read and Learn.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

WE should decide whether they get those tax breaks, not the corporations and their buddies in congress. THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT.

[-] 1 points by hillary (252) 2 years ago

If you are being foreclosed upon or are in over your head with debt then you aren't qualified to make decisions for the other responsible people.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

then, why did the "experts" at the bank give the loan in the first place. aren't they qualified? aren't they responsible? no? then, I guess they are crooks that prey upon unwitting victims for profit.

[-] 1 points by sassafrass (197) 2 years ago

Hard-working, responsible people who may have been laid off through no fault of their own, possibly at past the most "marketable" age; or foreclosed on because of someone else's irresponsible and unscrupulous lending practices; and/or who have had a loved one suddenly fall gravely ill with no insurance can't afford to SAVE anything the way the economy is right now. Think broader, please.

[-] 1 points by steve001968 (31) 2 years ago

You can't have irresponsible lending w/o irresponsible borrowing. The two go hand in hand.

[-] 1 points by sassafrass (197) 2 years ago

Can you have irresponsible cancer? howbout irresponsible Parkinson's? can you have irresponsible getting-hit-by-a-drunk-driver?

Enjoy your misfortune-free superior "responsibility", however narrowly you define it.

[-] 0 points by hillary (252) 2 years ago

I am, you just have a bleeding heart because you're probably one of those looking for a handout. I'm sorry you succumbed to the easy lending, hopefully you aren't succumbing to easy drugs, easy prostitution ...etc

God Bless.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

what planet or alternate parallel universe do you live in? we aren't looking for a handout, WE ARE LOOKING FOR A JOB you moron. there is high unemployment and widespread misery because of the immoral/unethical behavior of banks, corporations and our government. they caused it, not the unemployed who can't find work. you're an idiot.

[-] 1 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 2 years ago

"idiot" and "moron" in one post! Nice, very compelling argument, counselor.

While you're blaming other people for your unemployment, plenty of other people are looking out for themselves and learning new skills so that they can take advantage of the low unemployment in high-demand sectors of the economy like technology and health care. Unemployment is below 5% in technology. People who take responsibility for themselves will always be in a better position than people who blame other people for their problems, so if you choose to be one of the people blaming other people, then you should just accept that you will always be struggling. You have a choice to either adapt to a changing economy, or to whine about other people causing your problems and to demand that other people fix your problems for you. Right now there are people in nursing schools and paramedic schools and web development classes who will be making good,msteady income a year or two from now while you're still blaming other people. But you should blame the guy in the mirror first.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

what alternate parallel universe do you live in? must be nice to be rich and uncaring. what you don't see is that it is exactly your behaviour that this movement is about. the beginning is near.

[-] 1 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 2 years ago

You have a reliably consistent way of not responding to the substance of what anybody says to you. The universe is not a fair place. Deal with it. Complaining that it isn't is like complaining about rain, and demanding that somebody fix the problem for you. If your response to adversity is always to blame somebody else for your problems then you're never going to succeed. You want to blame your employment problems on rich people instead of yourself. But doing that doesn't change anything. Learning new jobs skills in high-demand job sectors would change something. But blaming other people for being rich and uncaring won't change anything. And going around calling people who disagree with you "idiot" and "moron" will change something. It just hurts you. The concept of personal responsibility seems to be completely absent in your mind. Go ahead and call me an idiot now, I know that's all that you know how to do.

[-] 0 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

I have not blamed anyone. I have pointed at the bad behavior and suggested a solution. All you've done is blame everyone but your precious banking system. what will change things is this movement. politics won't, we know that big business won't, and continuing to be slaves won't. You are angry and scared because to you, the collapse of the present economic system means that you'll become just like us - for a while anyway. And, you won't know how to navigate in a world that becomes a compassionate and nurturing community. not a dirty corporate parking lot where big business stores their "assets".

[-] 1 points by hillary (252) 2 years ago

Banks were empowered to give loans to those that did not meet the criteria. That would usually mean minorities. The intent was to give minorities a home. Somehow it got abused by greedy people looking to raise their status but who had no means to pay. In a Darwinian world, they are therefore not the fittest.

[-] 0 points by raines (699) 2 years ago

The banks were forced by freddies mac , fannie mae and janet reno to give non income verification loans. This mess belongs to Dodd and Frank.

[-] 0 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

the financial meltdown was caused by companies like goldman sachs that bundled sub-prime mortgage loans and then sold them as premium guaranteed stocks. there is no way now to know who owns the mortgages and now MERS cannot prove the banks even own the mortgages. THIS is what the problem is, not those who believed the supposed experts that they were qualified for the loans. So, you are telling me that people should qualify themselves for loans? They'd probably do a better job than the banks. you're an idiot.

[-] 1 points by hillary (252) 2 years ago

So apparently people have no self-control. By this logic you should be doing drugs and prostituting yourself.

The lending was made easy because it was thought that people wouldn't be STUPID. Sadly, that was not the case.

You also realize that the sub-prime products went bad ONLY BECAUSE GREEDY PEOPLE COULD NO LONGER PAY? Right?

[-] 1 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 2 years ago

This guy calls somebody an "idiot" or a "moron" in almost every post. Sometimes both in the same post. He's the textbook definition of a troll. Yet people who question the finances of Occupy Wall Street are the ones who get banned from this site, and posts about things like the ownership of this site are the ones that get deleted. Strange, right?

[-] 1 points by native (29) 2 years ago

yes mr prague, the "subprimes" in subprime loans that created the financial crisis were people who have already stopped paying back their debts. Look around again, this IS what happens when millions of people decide not to repay their debts.

[-] 1 points by cmt (1195) from Tolland, CT 2 years ago

Permalink game so I'm going up one: The contracts are carefully written to be very, very hard to understand. Not everyone has the financial expertise to decode the lawyerly obfuscation. Mortgage brokers are salesmen, and if they mislead people by lies, they can succeed in rooking them.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

are you F'n serious? corporations like goldman sachs never should have been allowed to sell crap like the sub-prime products which they falsely marketed by the way. But, thanks to the repeal of Glass–Steagall Act by the republicans, we found our way back to the Great Depression. If a bank is stupid enough to give sub-prime mortgages and qualify unqualified people THOSE BANKS are the problem, not the people applying for the loans. Put the responsibility where it belongs. I don't perform surgery because I'm not a doctor. If you are a doctor, you should be qualified to perform surgery. If you are a bank, you should be qualified to qualify people for loans. But, I guess that's just common sense. you're an idiot.

[-] 1 points by cmt (1195) from Tolland, CT 2 years ago

If you lose your job and your ability to pay tanks, does that mean you were greedy?

Substantial percentages of the sub-prime loans were made to people who qualified for prime loans, but were lied to. This has been well documented. It resulted in loans that were far more expensive than they should have been, making it much harder for people to pay.

There have not been nearly enough fraud indictments.

[-] 0 points by hillary (252) 2 years ago

@cmt: If you are saying the CONTRACT LIED, then by all means sue. If you are saying you saw KA CHING in your eyes and didn't read the contract, then who's the irresponsible one now?

[-] 1 points by sassafrass (197) 2 years ago

Wow. Enjoy your high horse, and may karma not utterly destroy you.

[-] 0 points by jeivers (278) 2 years ago

Yeah - if you got fired and your house got robo-foreclosed it's your own fault losers...

[-] 0 points by hillary (252) 2 years ago

It is because it's a fact that foreclosure isn't due to failure to pay mortgage but rather it has more to do with an insufficient amount of equity likely due to buying into a bigger home than can be afforded.

You lose because you were greedy.

God Bless.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

"you lose" and then "god bless"? if you really had the compassion of christ, you'd be supporting OWS. not putting down the victims of this economic crisis. if you think you are christian, you are not. you're one of the money lenders Jesus threw out of the temple. or at least a pharisee.

[-] 1 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 2 years ago

Please don't bring up Jesus when you're bragging about stealing.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

I can bring up whatever I like. For you, its just too inconvenient to be faced with the total contradiction of capitalism and christianity. too bad you don't like it, but its the truth. you will have to decide to be one or the other. you can't be both.

[-] 0 points by hillary (252) 2 years ago

God helps those who help themselves. Not thoise that want a handout because they got greedy.

It's right there in the Bible.

God Bless anyway.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

and exactly where is it in the bible where it says that in the bible?

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

you mean greedy like goldman sachs? Jesus also threw the money lenders out of the temple and told people to feed the hungry and cloth the naked. to take care of widows and orphans. what have you or goldman sachs done for the homeless vets or the hungry and the poor in this country? what have you done to improve the lives of your fellow human beings? what's that? too busy being selfish, self-centered and greedy?

[-] 0 points by jeivers (278) 2 years ago

That is way to basic for what plagues the housing market and you probably know that. People have ZERO incentive to stay in Underwater mortgages because the banks cant go after anything but the House and even Rich people are walking away from house they can afford because it makes monetary sense to do so. The RULES are screwed up in Favor of the Banks not having to acknowledge any current loses until a house is actually sold or foreclosed -- so no incentiove to sensibly re-write any of the mortgages !!!

[-] 1 points by steve001968 (31) 2 years ago

Why should they re-write the mortgages? Would you be willing to rewrite the mortgages to terms more favorable to the bank if the economy were good? No I didn't think so. People are underwater in their houses because, and try to pay attention, THEY BOUGHT OVERPRICED REAL ESTATE.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

so, you think it is more intelligent for the bank to own an empty house which is declining in value the longer they sit on it. at least if they re-financed, the bank would be getting some money back - and, it'd be the morally right thing to do anyways, instead of making a family homeless. people want jobs and they want to pay their debts. do you really think that people would prefer to lose their homes? you're an idiot.

[-] 0 points by jeivers (278) 2 years ago

yeah ans law states if you walk away from a house they canonly take the house not go after you for anything else - so if housing is down 33% across the board and people are choosing to walk away it does actually make sense in many cases for the banks to re-write mortgages but that happen while the rules allow the large banks to hide the losses due to housing depreciation.

[-] 0 points by hillary (252) 2 years ago

A level playing field means that the deadbeats with no responsibility gets the same advantages as the responsible ones who can control their impulses? Sorry, but we shouldn't be encouraging people to be irresponsible.

[-] 0 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

"deadbeats"? "responsible ones"? are you talking about the "responsible ones" that caused the economic and social collapse? are you talking about the"deadbeats" that are the victims of the actions of the "responsible ones"? do you mean the "responsible ones" like goldman sachs and lehmen brothers? the Kochs brothers? you mean like that? you're an idiot.

[-] 1 points by hillary (252) 2 years ago

When I mean deadbeats I mean those that splurged on credit when they had no plan to pay back the debt. Those are the stupid ones who got us in this mess. In the grand Darwinian world, these idiots must be culled from the reproduction pool.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

ok, I guess I'm an idiot. I had no choice but to use my credit cards to pay rent and buy food. I and millions of other Americans did this because the banks and government/big business caused the economic situation. You are putting effect before cause. you are an idiot.

[-] 0 points by hillary (252) 2 years ago

Why are you using Credit Cards? Don't you have any income?

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

that was years ago. since I was 15, I've been unemployed far more than employed. Again, this was not out of choice. I've done so many different things just to survive - everything thing from digging ditches to cleaning out grease pits. Most people are like me. They want to work because being homeless and hungry really sucks. Not to mention the shame. I have income now, fortunately. I move to the Czech Republic to get it. I am still underpaid, but at least I have health care and public transportation in a beautiful country which is unfortunately just beginning to be laid to waste by big business. I will never use credit again - I'm not able to anyways - bad credit. I couldn't pay my debts not because I am dishonest and immoral - I had no choice. I couldn't pay with money I didn't have. As for talking about dishonest and immoral - let's talk about banks and corporations. After all, this is what the movement is about. Not pointing fingers at the victims.

[-] 1 points by native (29) 2 years ago

so happy to hear you found happiness in the Czech republic, you aren't cut out to be american.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

ha ha, I am an American. but, I'm a human being first. I have empathy, sympathy, compassion and a sense of fairness and equality. you don't.... yes, let me hear it: "you're an idiot"...

[-] 0 points by raines (699) 2 years ago

You're underpaid? What is it that you do?

[-] 2 points by Pertello (80) 2 years ago

Yeah, great idea. (sarcasm). If you have credit card debt over $500-1000 the co will hire a law firm to sue you. They will serve you ( and you better show up in court or they will get a default judgment, ie; they autumatically win.) Then your wages can be garnished ( dont have a job you say? Dont worry they'll wait til you do). Or they can attach your house, take your car or anything of value that you own. Students, did your parents co-sign for your student loan? Then the debt collectors and lawyers will go after your mom & dad's assets. If it was a federal student loan, Sallie Mae, then the gov't can take their money back by siezing your taxes every year, garnishments and bank levies. Walk away from debt? Ok, but it will find you. A judgment can be collected on for 10- 15 years or more depending on your state, and guess what? Judgments are bought and sold like mortgages. And are often re-newed in court just as the SOL on the judgment is about to expire So that judgment can follow you around for the rest of your life. You better be and stay "judgment proof", ie; don't own anything, not even a tiny bank acct, and no job. For the rest of your life. Thats right, debt is a commodity and you are just a pawn to the debt collectors, banks and debt collection law firms.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

wow, you don't know a thing about it. none of that happened. the bank sold the debt, it got bought by a collection company, i moved, they gave up, and wrote it off for a tax credit. end of story. my credit is shot anyways.

[-] 3 points by steve001968 (31) 2 years ago

You forgot to mention how all the people who pay their bills get stuck with higher interest because losers like you don't honor your obligations. And if your credit is shot anyway that means you have a long history of being a deadbeat it isn't a one time thing due to some unforseen circumstance. You're just a loser who doesn't pay his or her bills. If your credit is shot you will get yours. That house, apartment job or something else you want or need will get snatched away as soon as they run the credit check, so the jokes on you afterall. I won't even hire you with bad credit. No chance. I need reliable people not losers who don't honor their obligations.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

well, then here's MY chance to say, "its sucks to be you". good, I hope your interests rates go waaay up. but, you deserve more than that you blowhard.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

so, you are for securing the elite. you are for only us select few. ok, so, you are a slave and you know who your massah is. reliable people have lost their homes and their way of life because of greed. this is what this is all about. you're an idiot.

[-] 1 points by Pertello (80) 2 years ago

wow, you don't know a thing about what I do all day. You were one of the few lucky ones. And by the way, some collector can buy up that debt and sue you for it before the statute of limitations is up. And if they do "gutter service" ie; don't serve you at the correct address intentionally you will not even know there's a judgment against you (since you probably never look at your abyssmal credit report anymore anyway). .

[-] 2 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 2 years ago

An abysmal credit score is a minor handicap compared to a warped and self-serving system of morality. For people to protest ethical violations by banks while simultaneously bragging about stealing from banks is mind-boggling. For somebody to claim to represent "the 99%", while forcing the rest of the 99% to cover their bad debts is infuriating.

[-] 1 points by davboz (79) 2 years ago

Isn't the dysfunction amazing, Tech? It is almost beyond words. The world needs to know what these folks are preaching. They are getting an awful lot of casual support from others who don't appreciate what they are really after here.

[-] 2 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 2 years ago

Yes, the reason that this page with its near-1000 responses is so fascinating is not solely the lack of personal responsibility in this guy who brags about and advocates stealing, and who wants to blame other people for all of his problems. The fascinating part is the number of replies from people who agree with him.

[-] 0 points by steve001968 (31) 2 years ago

"An abysmal credit score is a minor handicap".

No actually it's more like the kiss of death financially speaking for the next seven years or so.......

[-] 1 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 2 years ago

I'm not downplaying that. I'm just saying that a much bigger kiss of death for this guy is his warped sense of morality, where he doesn't have a problem reneging on his promises to pay money back to people. That's a much bigger factor in this guy's personal finance problems, I would suspect.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

"you would suspect". that's because you don't know. hey, everything's sunshine and roses for TechJunkie so to hell with the wide spread misery around techjunkie. don't rain on his/her parade. all you damned unemployed people are the cause of higher interest rates for ME. me me me...

[-] 1 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 2 years ago

Unemployed people don't cost me money, but people like you who lie to borrow money that they never intend to repay and then buy stuff that they can't afford and then run away from their debts do cost me money. That's why so many people are against socialism, because it forces people like me to pay for people like you, who don't have any kind of ethical problem with stealing money as long as you're stealing from a big, faceless corporation. But you're really stealing from me, and all of the other people who do make good on their debts. You tried to use unemployment as a rationalization for stealing from other people. That's unethical. Your poor sense of ethics is my hypothesis for a contributing factor toward why you're not succeeding in life.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

I wasn't rationalizing anything. I am saying to take action to collapse the present immoral system. fuck the banks and fuck the corporations. they've decimated this country and caused widespread misery and death around the world. I say all of us walk away from your debt and collapse their power over us. we will do just fine, in fact great, without them. what are you trying to rationalize? greed?

[-] 2 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 2 years ago

You're not taking action to collapse any immoral system, you're just acting selfishly to avoid paying for stuff that you bought that you can't afford. Trying to pretend that your theft was for a greater cause is just a rationalization. If you don't like corporations or banks then don't use credit cards to buy things from corporations. You would have credibility if you had not gone into debt in the first place. By making commitments to pay back money that you borrow on credit and then failing to make good on your obligations, you lied. By not returning the stuff that you bought, you stole. From me. From all of the people who DO make good on their debts. We all have to pay for you. You're not hurting corporations, you're hurting the rest of us by driving up prices and interest rates to cover losses from freeloaders like you.

[-] 0 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

I don't give a fuck about your higher interest rates. why don't you care about the suffering going on around you? the high numbers of kids that get their only meal at school. the homeless, our vets. who the fuck cares about your high interest rates. as you told me, stop using credit then. and maybe think about your fellow human beings.

[-] 1 points by davboz (79) 2 years ago

Your way is to multiply suffering expo-goddamn-nentially for the whole. You and your maddening b.s. about your compassion and love vibes. Utter crap. You have lied to yourselves and when self-delusionists get together they support each others' self-delusion by lying to each other. People like you need to be drowned out and sent down to live on Skid Row until you get tired of it and wake up. Oh. That's what you've done. Now you just need a fence around you. Let the passers by toss you crumbs after we cull you losers off of our benefit rolls.

[-] 1 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 2 years ago

I went way out of my way to offer free job training for high-paying, high-skill, entry-level jobs. My contribution to this protest against unemployment was originally going to be to hire somebody. But nobody here wants a job. And you just acknowledged that you're hurting me more than you're hurting any system, because they just raise rates to keep their profit margins constant when losses from people like you increase. They're not harmed, but people who pay their bills have to pay for your poor sense of ethics. I can only be thankful that you're in the Czech Republic, where your bad debt is slightly insulated from me. Slightly.

[-] 0 points by Scout (729) 2 years ago

The Collapse Of Our Corrupt, Predatory, Pathological Financial System Is Necessary And Positive

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/guest-post-collapse-our-corrupt-predatory-pathological-financial-system-necessary-and-positive

[-] 0 points by Scout (729) 2 years ago

you're talking rubbish! Do you think they have enough court time to deal with that?

[-] 1 points by Pertello (80) 2 years ago

Haha! I work in a law firm where we help debtors who are being harassed by debt collectors! The Fair Debt Collection Practices Act protects consumers From harassment but most of the laws in the FDCPA only apply to phone harassment, not court cases. The courts are clogged up right now with lawsuits against debtors! Read up on it before you accuse me of talking rubbish! http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/13/business/13collection.html?pagewanted=all

The article is from last year, but if anything it's much worse now!

Also, your tiny $1000 debt grows into much more due to interest and fees accruing (you agreed to that in the tiny print of your credit card agreement-- That little booklet they give you that no one ever reads, or the long paragraphs you scroll past online to get to the "I Accept" button.). The provision for the addition of interest and fees starts with something like "should your account become Delinquent." Add on the lawyers fees and court costs and $1000 could become $6000 or more!

[-] 0 points by Scout (729) 2 years ago

by the time this financial crisis is over no one will give a damn. it will be catch me if you can because you cannot get blood from a stone

[-] 1 points by steve001968 (31) 2 years ago

And the stone can't get a lot of good jobs, a decent place to live, a car, or a lot of other property because the stone's credit report screams LOSER.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

I'm a LOSER because I got laid-off (as in I wasn't fired)? I'm a loser because there are no jobs for me to work no matter how long or hard I look? I'm a loser because the banks imploded our economy and corporations have decimated our economy. and then, I'm the one who gets punished additionally by having LOSER stamped on my credit report which further assures I don't work? you're a butthole.

[-] 1 points by davboz (79) 2 years ago

Nooo, thickhead. You 're just a loser.

[-] 0 points by Scout (729) 2 years ago

The Collapse Of Our Corrupt, Predatory, Pathological Financial System Is Necessary And Positive

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/guest-post-collapse-our-corrupt-predatory-pathological-financial-system-necessary-and-positive

[-] 1 points by Pertello (80) 2 years ago

You are judgment proof? Congratulations. You win. Just don't ever get a job or own anything. Oh, and don't marry anyone with a job or property. The banks and lawyer debt collectors will go after them.

By the way those funny Vikings are the worst. Don't ever get the Viking credit card. I hear many horror stories about that company.

[-] 1 points by jbell78 (152) 2 years ago

I'm not sure why you're even taking the time to address such an asinine "proposal" with real facts. They're still convinced that they can flip a switch and the entire financial system will be gone. Poof, just like that...and then they can begin the new society where there is no money, no credit and everyone produces everything you'd ever need within a 3 block radius of everyone. At all times.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

oh, and, so you think our current system is rock solid do ya? you're a clown. and you're going down.

[-] 1 points by Pertello (80) 2 years ago

You're right. I give up. These people are in La-La Land. Time to go back to work and help people who need and appreciate it.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

are they hiring at your work? I really need a job.

[-] 1 points by Pertello (80) 2 years ago

I wish they were because there are hundreds of thousands of people out there being abused by debt collectors and banks. Maybe the best thing for now is if everyone would do themselves a favor and read the laws of the Fair Debt Collection Practices Act. That way people can feel empowered and know how to fight back.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

oh, I see, so another place that does not have any openings. multiply that by a dozen a day over years. there are no jobs.

[-] 1 points by Pertello (80) 2 years ago

I'm sorry for your hardship. I hope things turn around for you soon.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

gee, your pity really did some solid good.

[-] 0 points by Scout (729) 2 years ago

"In the developed world we have huge debt to GDP, in terms of government debt to GDP and unfunded liabilities that will come due, and these unfunded liabilities are so huge that eventually these governments will all have to print money before they default." Marc Faber

[-] 0 points by Scout (729) 2 years ago

The Collapse Of Our Corrupt, Predatory, Pathological Financial System Is Necessary And Positive

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/guest-post-collapse-our-corrupt-predatory-pathological-financial-system-necessary-and-positive

[-] 0 points by Scout (729) 2 years ago

you make me laugh! USA is one gigantic DEBT and more are more people are predicting America itself will walk away from its debts so why should the ordinary person be any more responsible?

[-] 1 points by Pertello (80) 2 years ago

Personal integrity. Good credit. Setting a good example for your children.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

so do you think Goldman Sachs is a good example for my children? really? do you think they could teach my childre about integrity? or good credit? my tax money bailed them out and then they bailed me out of my home. right. keep talking morality.

[-] 1 points by Pertello (80) 2 years ago

I would use Goldman Sachs as an object lesson to teach my children about the evils of corruption and greed.

[-] 0 points by Scout (729) 2 years ago

bullshit

[-] 2 points by ARod1993 (2420) 2 years ago

Here's the thing; I definitely believe that the number of underwater mortgages in this country indicates that the market went way off the deep end. I also agree that subprime loans became the new vehicle du jour for predatory lenders all over the goddamn country and that half those loans were in fact not made in good faith. I have argued on here that the best thing to do here is to force banks to take haircuts on overvalued loans and then refinance the loans under the current value so that people can pay them. Hell, if I were a bank CEO holding that many precarious mortgages my first step would have been to write the worst ones down en masse to prevent having to write them off altogether (what happens when mortgages go into default). I would also support setting interest rate caps on all loans (credit card debt, student loan debt, any kind of loan) so that we no longer have to deal with perpetual indebtedness.

Here's the thing: I would far prefer refinancing, writing down, and occasionally forgiving debt in an orderly fashion than to have everyone in the country simultaneously repudiate their debt. This is simply because that kind of sudden repudiation could have incredibly far-reaching and incredibly nasty effects on the economy and as much as change is necessary I want to prevent as much of the human cost as possible. I also believe that if a mass repudiation were a serious possibility right now that banks would be falling all over themselves to offer structured writedowns and forgivenesses like I just described, and that interest rate caps would be written into law with surprising alacrity. If the threat of mass repudiation forces change, then so be it. Just, for the love of God don't follow through on it if the above options are offered to you.

[-] 1 points by annonasandra (48) 2 years ago

Amen Brother. But a global economic crash IS coming, and it doesn't matter what we do or don't do. So my advice is to get yourself menatally prepared for it. That's the first thing.

[-] 1 points by steve001968 (31) 2 years ago

"I also agree that subprime loans became the new vehicle du jour for predatory lenders all over the goddamn country and that half those loans were in fact not made in good faith. I have argued on here that the best thing to do here is to force banks to take haircuts on overvalued loans and then refinance the loans under the current value so that people can pay them."

Yeah, by all means, lets reward the irresponsible people who got loans they new or should have known they could not pay for real estate they knew or should have known was overpriced.

[-] 1 points by ARod1993 (2420) 2 years ago

Say I came up to you and handed you a contract that I'd written in tiny print in continually self-referential legalese, filled it up with obscure mathematical notations, and slapped a signature space on the bottom. Say I then proceeded to inform you that the Laplacian operator of your income function is uniformly positive over the 2D vector space corresponding to income and debt, and that the value of this operator corresponds to the difference between maximum monthly payments and your minimum current income. Say that this difference meant that you could own your very own $300K home with only a couple grand down and an annual interest rate of 2%. What kind of a deal would you call that?

I'd call it a great deal, of the sort that you're not going to get from anyone but me. Two percent a year, huh? And you know what? Before we're done here, your Laplacian is high enough to qualify you for an extra special favor; we're gonna waive the first few monthly payments to help you get on your feet. Now sign here...

You believed that? Sorry, pal; that two percent rate was just for the first year. Try twelve percent. What? You can't pay? Sorry, bud; those are the terms and I'm not gonna do jack about it. Can't pay? Fine; go ahead and pack up your bags while I get the cops.

That pitch up there? I'd call it snake oil sales and flat-out fraud. I'd further call you a complete and utter numskull worthy of public ridicule for buying it. The entire metric I based your "suitability" on is gibberish; the Laplacian operator would ONLY be positive if the rate of growth of your pay is growing, and a 2D vector space composed of debt and income means absolutely nothing. Didn't you take elementary multivariable calculus in college? I thought not, given that I can smell your sorry ass halfway across the street. It was clearly your fault for signing something you couldn't understand even though you were promised a good deal and told it was a safe bet...

[-] 1 points by annonasandra (48) 2 years ago

And don't forget that the whole system is enhanced by psychological seduction planned out to a T by oh so many marketers. . . who are trained in colleges

[-] 1 points by Scout (729) 2 years ago

you are dreaming! it would take decades to " occasionally forgive debt in an orderly fashion " now that the entire real estate market which was the catalyst for this crisis in the first place is being shown to be so deeply flawed because of mortgage fraud that secure home ownership has gone out of the window for a very long time

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6JEgYs8A-Q&feature=player_embedded

[-] 1 points by ARod1993 (2420) 2 years ago

What I meant by that was this: have the Treasury forcibly purchase all outstanding troubled mortgages at their current market values and make the banks take the hit. Then send out negotiators to all of the homes in trouble and attempt to set terms for orderly repayment of the remaining value on the mortgages at non-subprime interest rates. Put a moratorium on payments for each individual debt from the time it is purchased by the government until the time a refinancing agreement is worked out. If the homeowners still can't make it work, give 'em the deed outright and write off the mortgage. Do the same with student debt, and possibly credit card debt. At the very least cap interest rates on all loans (credit cards included) at 10% and no more.

[-] 2 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

the bank bailout money should have been used to pay off all our mortgages. after all, its our money. the banks should have been allowed to fail.

[-] 0 points by raines (699) 2 years ago

You said you were in the Czech Republic. Do you have dual citizenship with the USA?

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

No.

[-] 0 points by raines (699) 2 years ago

So, what country do you live in?

[-] 2 points by steve001968 (31) 2 years ago

"At the very least cap interest rates on all loans (credit cards included) at 10% and no more."

And then people with mediocre credit will not be able to get any loan because the interest rate will not justify the risk and they will whine and cry loudly and persistently and the cap will quickly be scrapped.

[-] 1 points by steve001968 (31) 2 years ago

And what exactly in the constitution is it that you feel empowers the government to do that?

[-] 2 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

the part that says we are a self-governing people. where in the constitution does it say that corporations should decide how OUR economy is run, or that corporations should make our economic decisions, or that corporations should run our government? where in the constitution is that part?

[-] 0 points by Scout (729) 2 years ago

but how can you possibly assess value going forward now that MERS has broken or diluted the chain of title in so many instances?

[-] 2 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

actually, the conservatives of less government probably did us a favor with MERS. If the bank can't prove it owns the mortgage, they can't evict you or force you to pay them. might be a glimmer of hope here.

[-] 0 points by Scout (729) 2 years ago

for the homeowners they are laughing all the way but for the banking and financial system they are f*cked and it couldn't have happened to a nicer group of people ha ha ha

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

ain't it great!!! :)

[-] 0 points by Scout (729) 2 years ago

honestly talk about sheeple. there have been so many examples of both the banks and the government who think nothing about walking away from debt and yet all these people that have written in this thread about " you need to do the right thing "!! you have to be joking! it is the right thing to tell them to go f*ck yourself!

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

sheeple? that's pretty outdated and worn. if people are sheep because they actually take action to change the system, then, well, is there something more sheepy than sheep? the American people are protesting , they are participating in the occupy movement because they have nothing left to lose. oh, and by the way, aren't sheep led by a shepherd? who is the leader of the occupy movement? you're an idiot.

[-] 0 points by Scout (729) 2 years ago

the people who are involved with this movement are awake and aware of what's happening. The sheeple are the ones who criticise the movement and even participate against it such as the white shirts in the NYPD or those that are more concerned about the daily life of Kim Kardashian than the fact that they are being screwed by corrupt representatives in Congress and the Senate in tandem with the banksters.

[-] 1 points by ARod1993 (2420) 2 years ago

Assess the current value of the house, property, etc. from scratch in each area in question and then set the mortgage value equal to the result of that assessment. The current holder of the mortgage, be it as an individual mortgage or as part of a bundled CDO, is the one from whom the debt is forcibly purchased. If the mortgage is sliced and diced badly enough that chain of title cannot be reconstructed then it's the homeowner's lucky day.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

but, MERS has done a shitting job tracking mortgages. They can't find all the correct paperwork that proves the bank owns the mortgage! I love this! ha ha ha ha! They said we gotta privatize everything. privatization ensures that it gets done better than if the government does it. oh how ironic the justice is!

[-] 1 points by Scout (729) 2 years ago

there is no time to do all of that. The Titanic is sinking

[-] 1 points by ARod1993 (2420) 2 years ago

What I suggested includes an immediate moratorium, thus preventing further foreclosures and collection proceedings.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

especially since MERS cannot provide the paperwork to prove that the banks own the mortgages. if you can't prove the bank owns the mortgage, then they cannot evict you and you don't have to pay them. I love it!!! this is great!

[-] 1 points by steve001968 (31) 2 years ago

Sorry. Not happening.

[-] 1 points by lifesprizes (298) 2 years ago

Lets make love not debt.

[-] 1 points by TheCloser (200) 2 years ago

Pay cash. Stop jacking-off to the ugly American dream of endless shopping sprees and big mortgages. Why work all month just to pay your car and living - get a sense of SCALE. If you've only got a few bucks, save some and be resourceful. The corporations illustrate frugality by firing the people that made them rich; why not fire the corporations that make us poor?

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

good idea!

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

the occupy movement is about the loss of community America feels. the emotional loss of once having been part of something bigger than ourselves. we are tired of living in a country where its everyone for themselves. you know, my well-being is dependent on your well-being. Go talk to some of the people in the local occupy movement. its a very peaceful movement and its your fellow Americans. ask them questions. get connected again.

[-] 1 points by sfsteve (151) 2 years ago

That's a great idea. We could also just kill ourselves. Then they'd be screwed!

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

wow. you know, the collapse of the current system would not be armageddon. we'd all have to share in the pain and the work, but, it would get better real quick. its just that yo and many others would rather die than share.

[-] 1 points by sfsteve (151) 2 years ago

Look, I have paid toward my underwater home for five years and, in about one year, I think I will finally owe less that it is worth. I bought at the peak of the market and have decided, since I have been able to afford it, to stick it out. It does not feel good to pour the majority of your take home pay into an undeniably bad investment. Yet, I have. In fact, I have made every payment and have paid extra whenever I could. The reason is not to feed a corporation, I financed the house through a credit union anyhow, but it is simply because I believe in the principle that when you borrow fully aware of what you are doing, you pay it back as long as you can.

That said, I realize that there are many who were victims of predatory lending or fell on hard times due to the loss of a job. In these cases, I think they should be allowed to walk and collect move out costs equal to the principle they have paid. Or if they choose, they should be able to have the interest reduced to whatever it takes to make it affordable for them to stay.

[-] 1 points by audiman (90) 2 years ago

I think OWS will be better when your hair and beards get longer. But I think you guys should come up with your own music. Don't take our cool 60's songs. Maybe you could sing Timberlake? Or Perry? Just not Clapton.

[-] 0 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

why? OWS is America. young, old, republican, democrat. we can play all sorts of songs. from benny goodman (a favorite of mine), to AC/DC (also a favorite of mine). OWS is not a few young troublemakers. OWS IS literally America. have you gone to any of the occupy's anywhere all across America? If you think the occupy movement is just a few young people in Zucotti park, you are wildly mistaken.

[-] 0 points by audiman (90) 2 years ago

Look, hear is the thing....most folks are doing OK. Most folks have jobs. That is why we have gridlock every morning. Millions of folks are going to work for cities, the Fed Gov, resturants, oil and gas, fishing, everything. Millions of us have a retirement based on a 401K. Whick are based on stocks which are based on corporations.

[-] 1 points by audiman (90) 2 years ago

If you mes with the corporations then you are messing with millions of folks future retirement. Remember , corporations are owned by the people.

[-] 0 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

The Occupy Wall Street movement now active in some 400 cities nationwide is a cry of protest against the concentration of power among big companies in general and big banks in particular. you're isolated. what alternate parallel universe do you live in? wow.

[-] 1 points by audiman (90) 2 years ago

You say wow to me! Where I live in Southern Cal, no one is even talking about you folks. At all. My Son just came home from school and I asked him if he knew anyone in OWS? He laughed and said no. Then he asked me if people were still doing that? I'm telling you, you folks in the protest are feeling it but you are the only ones. It's just not enough. You should protest war. Everyone hates war. Just trying to help. I live in the normal universe.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

the occupy movement is about the loss of community America feels. the emotional loss of once having been part of something bigger than ourselves. we are tired of living in a country where its everyone for themselves. you know, my well-being is dependent on your well-being. Go talk to some of the people in the local occupy movement. its a very peaceful movement and its your fellow Americans. ask them questions. get connected again.

[-] 1 points by audiman (90) 2 years ago

I don't feel a loss of community. I feel the same. We have had bad times before. I give back like many Americans. I am not rich. But I'm telling you, protest war. War is much more terrible than Wall Street. You folks are really no different than PITA. Really, thats how you come across. Most Americans are not with OWS. But I do think it;s cool that you protest. Bitchen!

[-] 1 points by audiman (90) 2 years ago

If you walk away from your credit, it will hurt you down the line when you want to buy a car or a house. Because sooner than later you will find a job, do well and you will need to buy stuff for your family. Just like the folks did in the 1960's. After Woodstock they all got married, found jobs and bought homes just like you will. You want to try to keep a high credit score not a low one. I guess this kind of thing happens once in every 40 years or so. It will be fun for you to look back at all the pictures and laugh when you are 50 years old. Just like we did.

[-] 0 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

that was after woodstock. totally different world. the American dream was still alive. its dead now. corporations suck everything dry for profit and leave nothing.

[-] 1 points by audiman (90) 2 years ago

Everything is not dead. I know young folks who are working and buying homes right now. People still want the best for their family. My point is if you go to Santa Barbara, San Diego, Del Mar, lots of places, people are happy. Not rich but happy. That is why your 99% is flawed. Maybe you are the 20%. I live in a normal not rich neighborhood and no one I know is in OWS. Don't get me wrong, protest is cool, but you need something more than wall street.

[-] 0 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

do you know how many "occupy"'s their are across America? the occupy movement is America. young, old, middle-aged, republican, democrat, women, men, children, all walks of life - it literally IS America. The occupy movement is occupying in EVERY state and across the world. you have isolated yourself. you don't know who America is anymore.

[-] 1 points by audiman (90) 2 years ago

Then how come nothing has changed around me? My friends all have jobs. We all pay our house payments. I am an old guy, I still have a job. If I lost it I would find another in a short time. We are a family of workers. We cannot sit, we must work. I bet most of the kids at OWS have a cell phone that their Mom and Pop are paying for. A smart phone is $70.00 min. I also love Wal Mart. They sell food much cheaper than other stores. So, in fact they are helping the poor get by. I have been watching their prices. Much cheaper overall than everyone else.

[-] 1 points by audiman (90) 2 years ago

So can everyone walk away from their loan? If a guy had a Porsche 911 loan could he walk away from his debt also? Could he keep the car? Would it ruin his credit? Can we still buy Coca Cola? They are really huge but I really like rum and Coke. Can I keep Verizon? For my cell phone? Which debt should we walk away from. Explain?

[-] 0 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

sure. no. is that what life is for you? consumerism? things? can you imagine another way of living? where no one is left hungry or homeless? where compassion is more important than profit? your post describes the world the way it is now - and its a dark and dead world with no life and no humanity. YES, I'd love everyone to walk away from their debt to end this hell.

[-] 1 points by audiman (90) 2 years ago

Most folks I know in my very middle class world are happy folks. This may be your hell but not for most folks. So far your movement just does not hit home like the war in Viet Nam. If you protest anything you should protest war. It's kind of like the animal rights folks that want to end fish farms and zoos. We look at their signs and just laugh. John Lennon wrote the song "Imagine" Wonderful song but he was a millionaire. How fake can you get. You will still have an Iphone 4s when it's all over at $70 bucks a month.

[-] 0 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

what alternate parallel universe do you live in? you're an idiot.

[-] 1 points by Katreflect (3) 2 years ago

Don't you realize that walking away from the debt will just result in more people losing their jobs? Corporations are made of people most of which are the "99%".

[-] 1 points by OLLAG (84) 2 years ago

WHAT?? the world would be destroyed. lending money creates trust and nations like each-other for it.

If I borrow money from you and then I walk of my debt you would be angry right?

[-] 0 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

goldman sachs is not me. BoA is not me. remember the bank bailout of 2008? TARP? why'd we have to do that? It was because the Glass-Steagall Act was repealed and banks and insurance companies were allowed to merge and sell "sub-prime products" which are 100's of sub-prime mortgages bundled together and then sold as guaranteed premium stock. If we all walked away from the debt of those perpetrators, we would end this corrupt and immoral system. If I loaned you money and you walked away from it, you'd just hurt me. you're an idiot.

[-] 1 points by OLLAG (84) 2 years ago

yes and no one would every lend anyone money again! You need money lending.

Look at this you uneducated slum:

Economic rise of the US:

1950s: Lending at a high, economy at a high

1960s: lending at a medium, economy at a high

1970s: lending at a medium, economy at a medium

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

its sad that you and many others can't imagine another system other than the current one. why ignore how bad it is? out of fear? are you afraid you might have to share the pain? I hope you do. then, you would have to understand. you wouldn't be able to ignore and be so selfish.

[-] 1 points by OLLAG (84) 2 years ago

name a system that works that isn't what 90% of nations in the world right now are doing.

PS how come China (which is using our system) is prospering? they got rid of communism and look where they are.

And by the way i love how to change the subject when i show how lending is good.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

and China didn't get rid of communism. you're an idiot

[-] 1 points by OLLAG (84) 2 years ago

China did.

OH THEY HAVE A COMMUNIST PARTY !!! FUCK THAT!!! THEY HAVE A FREE MARKET WHICH IS OUR SYSTEM!!!!

The Chinese economic reform (simplified Chinese: 改革开放; traditional Chinese: 改革開放; pinyin: Gǎigé kāifàng, literally Reform and Opening) refers to the program of economic reforms called "Socialism with Chinese characteristics" in the People's Republic of China (PRC) that were started in December 1978 by reformists within the Communist Party of China (CPC) led by Deng Xiaoping. China had one of the world's largest and most advanced economies prior to the nineteenth century,[1] while its wealth remained average in global terms.[2] The economy stagnated since the 16th century[2] and even declined in absolute terms in the nineteenth and much of the twentieth century, with a brief recovery in the 1930s.[3] Economic reforms of a capitalist type began in 1978 and occurred in two stages. The first stage, in the late 1970s and early 1980s, involved the decollectivization of agriculture, the opening up of the country to foreign investment, and permission for entrepreneurs to start up businesses. However, most industry remained state-owned. The second stage of reform, in the late 1980s and 1990s. The private sector grew remarkably, accounting for as much as 70 percent of China GDP by 2005,[4] a figure larger in comparison to many Western nations. From 1978 to 2010, unprecedented growth occurred, with the economy increasing by 9.5% a year. China's economy became the second largest after the United States. The conservative Hu-Wen Administration more heavily regulated and controlled the economy after 2005, reversing some reforms.[5] By 2009 the Chinese had a complete free market.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

you are confusing a government with an economic system. just like the American government is not capitalist. you're an idiot.

[-] 1 points by OLLAG (84) 2 years ago

Communism is an economical and political system. You can't have a communism, (a government which stands for evenly distributing money), and a free market, (based on a little government involvement were people work to make themselves a success or not)

Maybe if you got good grades and went to college you would have learned that.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

communism is an economic system, not a political one. just like capitalism is an economic system. neither has anything to do with democracy or freedom. you're an idiot.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

our system is working? are you joking? Greece, Italy, France, the EU, our own country. remember TARP? look at all the economies that are in trouble that use our economics, that bought the sub-prime products from goldman sachs and see how much trouble they are in. what alternate parallel universe do you live in?

[-] 0 points by alouis (1511) from New York, NY 2 years ago

China is not "using our system." China has Communist Party primacy in politics which allows decisions to be made and implemented, up to and including successful five year plans:

http://sweetandsoursocialism.wordpress.com/2011/03/11/china-prepares-to-end-gdp-obsession-xinhua/

"BEIJING, March 6 (Xinhua) — China will seek lower economic growth in the coming five years as the constant pursuit of rapid expansion in past years has brought about unbalanced economic and social development.

China is targeting an annual average growth rate of seven percent in the next five years to 2015, Premier Wen Jiabao told nearly 3,000 national legislators Saturday.

The move is meant to bring a "significant improvement in the quality and performance of economic growth," Wen said.

The new target is quite impressive for the developed nations still struggling to stimulate economic growth after the international financial crisis. However, it seems modest in comparison with the target of 7.5 percent five years ago.

During the 11th Five-Year Plan period (2006-2010), in fact, China’s economy expanded at an annual average of 11.2 percent despite impacts of the global economic turmoil.

It’s true that official targets often underestimate actual economic growth, however, economists believe the new target for the 12th Five-Year Plan reflects the government’s determination to shift the focus from speed to quality.

Such a message was also signaled in Wen’s remarks on Feb. 27 during an online chat with netizens. The premier said the government must no longer sacrifice the environment for the sake of rapid growth.

LITERAL READING?

The decision is made as the international financial crisis has exerted deep impacts, global economic growth remains slow, and China’s development is unbalanced, uncoordinated and unsustainable, according to the draft 12th Five-Year Plan submitted to the annual parliamentary session Saturday.

"The target does not mean China’s economic rise will slow down to seven percent," noted He Qiang, a financial expert with the Central University of Finance and Economics. One consideration is that it is conducive to prevent an overheating of the economy, he said.

Also, the continuous elimination of outdated industrial capacity will put pressures on economic growth, he said.

"A lower growth rate leaves room for possible economic fluctuations during the five years in case global or regional economic crisis bites again," said Wang Jun, a macro-economic researcher with the China Center for International Economic Exchanges, a government think tank.

The move also indicates the government has become more tolerant of slower growth, and policy-making can become more flexible in the next five years, he said.

Other economists see the voluntary abandonment of addiction to fast growth marks the government’s firm determination to revamp the economy by reducing dependence on exports and capital- and energy-intensive industries. Instead, conditions for more domestic demand will be built...

[-] 1 points by OLLAG (84) 2 years ago

OMG do you know what would happen if every nation walked off its debt? Countries owe us triple of what we owe china! We would loose so much MONEY!!!!

[-] 0 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

oh no, that'd be terrible! gasp!

[-] 1 points by OLLAG (84) 2 years ago

yes it would. we need money thats why we are a superpower witha GDP of 14 trillion

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

who's "we"? who's the "superpower"? its certainly not the 99% to hell with that.

[-] 1 points by OLLAG (84) 2 years ago

You should be proud to be in America. Other countries are weak and pour. We as a people are very rich! You aren't starving because the US have you food stamps. The world wouldn't work if people could walk of their debt!!!! The point of the 99% becoming rich is because the borrow money create a business and pay it back.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

you're English isn't too good. "food stamps"? the 99% becoming rich? you're a joke.

[-] 1 points by OLLAG (84) 2 years ago

You can be rich. just stop sitting on your *ss and work. "I can't find a job!" then make one. their is plenty of work! just find it.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

wow. why didn't the millions of Americans think about that? you mean, just go find a job, pick it off the loaded job tree, and everything is great? why, we never thought of that. you're an idiot.

[-] 1 points by OLLAG (84) 2 years ago

its easy. make a job. Start making things and selling them. Write a book with a paper and pen. borrow money (AND PAY IT BACK!!!!!) and start a business then you can see how easy it is to be a CEO. They work all the time.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

what alternate parallel universe do you live in? you're an idiot.

[-] 1 points by OLLAG (84) 2 years ago

I did it. My cousin did it with me. My nephew is trying to and has already made 200,000$ in doing so.

[-] 0 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

well, that's two.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

Hello all again, I just sent my first email asking for help on how to move from the "idea" stage to the "action" phase. Please give me your input or ideas or suggestions. Here is the letter:

Hello,

I am emailing you because I am looking for some direction. I have an idea that I want to move to the "action" phase. But, I don't know how to proceed. This is really new to me. Anyhow, I'd like to share my idea (not that I think you'd be interested or that its original) because it might help you point me in the right direction - I really hope I'm not being to presumptuous here. Please forgive me if I am.

Idea:

Two key points:

  1. A lot of mortgages were sub-prime. These were bundled into so-called "sub-prime products". Hundreds of sub-prime mortgages were bundled. Its really difficult to determine where that mortgage is or who owns it. Does the bank own some pieces of the "sub-prime product" Or does someone else?

  2. MERS (Mortgage Electronic Registration Systems, Inc.) is a privately held company that operates an electronic registry designed to track servicing rights and ownership of mortgage loans in the United States. MERS in turn is owned by aholding company called MERSCORP, Inc. MERS has done a terrible job of tracking ownership of mortgages.

Okay, so now my idea. If the bank cannot prove ownership of the mortgage, it cannot evict or demand payment. I thought it would be great to find some homeowners with troubled mortgages to volunteer to have protesters occupy their home. Protesters with the suitable legal and financial knowledge to pursue this. To demand of the banks proof of ownership of the mortgage. The local occupy movement could become involved to help the family in case they had to actually move out - try to find some place for them to live so they wouldn't be homeless. Who knows, maybe they would occupy the homes of volunteers of the occupy movement.

Anyhow, that's the idea. I just don't know how to go beyond the idea stage. Thanks in advance for your patience. By the way, I have started a forum topic on OWS's site. It has almost 900 posts now. Its on "walking away from your debt". I was surprised at the note I struck with people (really never expected that) Here's the link: http://occupywallst.org/forum/everybody-walk-away-from-your-debt/#comment-308608

Tom Ulcak

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

Hello all my fellow human beings. I have been replying to posts on this thread for several days now, but, I am going to stop. I have some ideas that I'd like to put into action. I want to be part of the solution through direct action. My idea (and I shouldn't say "my" idea - I'm sure some of my other friends in the occupy movement across the world have thought of it before me and even better ideas) I think will start with helping people keep their homes. Walking away from mortgage loans, but, more than that helping homeowners who instead have to walk away from their homes. Does anyone know of some folks with legal and financial knowledge especially related to mortgages? Does anyone know of some skilled activists that know how to get an idea out there and connect to people who can make it happen? I'm am over my head on this one. Love you all. The beginning is near.

[-] 1 points by audiman (90) 2 years ago

If you pay your debt, the interest rates are low. And you will be treated well if you are not late. If you cannot handle the loans, use cash. Drive an old car. Eat at Jack in the box. Get a roommate.

[-] 1 points by audiman (90) 2 years ago

Think of the billions you are giving Apple!!!!!! The largest of them all.

[-] 1 points by audiman (90) 2 years ago

Even your cell phone debt! OMG! Almost every young person I know working or not, most living with parents have a $70.00 a month phone bill for a smart phone. So they can do facebook and twitter. I see it every day. They make fun of me because my phone only calls and I can text. They all have a $30.00 a month data plan so they can tell folks that they just got back from Target and now going to lunch at The Outback. That is what is wrong with America today. I know so many young guys living with Mom's and Dad's like little girls. With smart phones.

[-] 1 points by gordongecko (1) 2 years ago

yes, great idea- basically start stealing.......this would create rampant poverty and chaos on a global level.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

you mean like it is now?

[-] 1 points by GetToWork (1) 2 years ago

If you have debt, than you dont own it. You don't own the home until you've payed off the mortgage and get the deed. You don't own the title to your car until you've paid off the loan. Stop paying but dont be surprised when you get kicked out or your car gets towed.

[-] 1 points by spflhome (41) 2 years ago

If you really like to change things, please click the following link and start a campaign to get millions to sign it......Thanks.

http://www.change.org/petitions/members-of-congress-and-senators-fix-the-economy-and-balance-the-budget-now?pe=d4e

[-] 1 points by meep (233) 2 years ago

Credit and debt are an important part of a functioning capitalist society and aren't really the problem. The problem is the overwhelming power and influence that the wealthiest Americans have. We don't need to walk away from debt, but rather we need to walk toward better journalism, less money in politics, and more substantive political debate. It would certainly help if we used credit unions more, but that won't fix the problem, and walking away from debt certainly won't fix the problem.

If you really want to be radical, then I think the best thing we can do is support employee owned businesses and slowly and carefully over time dismantle the investor-centric natural of our free market thinking.

[-] 1 points by davboz (79) 2 years ago

Meep? excuse me for buttin' in but you just slid right by the most important point. It is capitalism they un-apologetically intend to topple. At least in their fantasies. And if they can't do that, they will be satisfied with chaos. Check their statements. Read their words.

[-] 1 points by meep (233) 2 years ago

Who are "they"? Some people want to "topple capitalism" but they are the minority. Some of their ideas are interesting or worth listening to, others are extreme, but "they" are not everyone in the movement. OccupyWallSt is not OWS. What the movement is really about is observing the inequality in both wealth and more importantly in power. That messages does not equate with toppling capitalism, and that is all I am trying to say. Capitalism is a red herring, it's power concentrated in the hands of a few that is the culprit.

[-] 1 points by davboz (79) 2 years ago

I know some of the ideas are worth listening to. I've been trying for several years now to try to wake up people around me to the fact that our leaders are slaves to the snakeheads of the unified financial giants. How could anyone, if they were paying attention, not sense that this mass extraction was perpetrated intentionally. The differences I feel here have to do with such things as - for one - that it is the very undoing of a free and real Capitalism that is one of the main goals of the globalists. They WANT to rule over a compliant world population where the people IMAGINE that it was their own motivation which brought them under the Socialist tent. I refer to "them" as being the voices I hear out of this movement. These people are like Manchurian candidates. One of my main realizations some time back (when I started paying attention) is just what you say. YES - capitalism has been co-opted. Slowly. Sneakily. Often, even, with good intentions. This is critical. Those who want to say "Capitalism has failed us" Well we haven't seen a good model of Capitalism maybe for 50?, 100? years. Maybe since the Fed was created? Can't say for sure. I sure know the past 20-25 years have seen a radical restriction and bastardization of the system to where it can no longer function organically where it would have far more often automatically brought the best overall good for the most people. It would not include implied bailouts! It is your very kind of "surface" view of things that is frustrating. People don't think about philosophies and ideas. They just want. That is the functional difference between the reptile brain and the cerebral cortex.

[-] 1 points by meep (233) 2 years ago

A lot of people on this forum would put the downturn in the health of our capitalism at the shift from embedded liberalism to neoliberalism. My limited research seems to suggest that neoliberalism gives you higher GDP but lower social equity and lower social mobility as compared to embedded liberalism. I'm no expert though. 100 years ago our form of capitalism was fairly laize faire, the result of which is similar to what we see today, growing power in a shrinking pool of hands, movement toward more monopolistic practices, and as a consequence the poisoning of the free market. So pre-fed isn't a great place to look, imo. And there are forms of mild socialism that are not at all destructive. The Scandinavian countries are very competitive and have relatively liberal social programs. The important thing is that we need to start talking about this stuff in a civil way, so that we can all learn and think and grow as a nation. Instead we shout and name-call. That's just not productive.

[-] 0 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

how much more time and delay? millions of us have lived with this all our lives. do you think this is the "protest of the week"? here today, gone tomorrow by a few protesters that are participating in the "cool thing to do this week"? the system is broken. the corporations own the economy and the government. do you really think they are going to change it just because we ask: "pretty please"? what a really stupid post.

[-] 1 points by meep (233) 2 years ago

I don't recall suggesting that we ask "pretty please". I believe that what I said was that credit and debt aren't the problem and that you're chasing the wrong ghost, and if you continue to chase it you will be doing something counter productive to the problem you are trying to fix. You are welcome to declare bankruptcy at any time if you want to walk away from your debt, and you can then choose to not indebt yourself again. That is a choice and it is an option. I however am glad for the student loans I got, and will happily pay them back as they have provided me with an education that I could not have afforded without them. Credit is a decent thing, the problem is that it is being abused by a minority. The problem is that too much power is in the hands of too few. Try to fix that instead of chasing a red herring.

[-] 1 points by davboz (79) 2 years ago

See what I mean? tulcak is not alone. Part of this strategy is to hide some of their true goals and keep a relatively mild public face on the movement. meep, I'm more on your line of thinking so please don't jump me. I'm just giving you something to watch for and think about. I don't mean to attack you. BUT, you see this "movement" was processed, planned, taught, drilled, and organized for a long time by at least a couple of the largest radical-left think-tanks, funded by global socialist organizations that actually DO do some good work for people. Notice the focus on - not changing corporate mindset - but crushing them. Crushing the economy. You have to think it through. If you think we've seen hard times, you've seen nothing yet if these people gain the piling-on support of the masses who don't get what they're up to. Who in their right mind - outside the "1%" - would want to continue as we have been? That would be ignorant. Note the way they avoid the government as topic. As if that isn't where the problem lies. It's just incredible to me. This is all just a huge diversion and possibly the final push by the very powers which the unaware followers are deceived into believing that they are protesting against. *note tulcak's response (below) to your logical post. He won't listen. AT ALL. You can't discuss. It's the same thing we see in our "leader". It's an impudent child. Clenched fist. Stomping foot. Absolute denial of reality or logic. Complete refusal to listen or process.

[-] 1 points by meep (233) 2 years ago

yeah, I know what you mean. I still don't think that everyone who supports this movement feels that way, and I think this movement can still avoid going the route of the tea party (slowly driving out everyone but the political extremists). I think the reasonable people outnumber the unreasonable ones, which is why we need to step up the conversation and step down the shouting. I think that's possible, and I think there are a lot of people that want that.

[-] 1 points by davboz (79) 2 years ago

Yeah. I think I see what you're saying. ...Yeah. ...Maybe the reasonable almost have to outweigh what I'm seeing on the web, especially on these threads. I get so skeptical knowing how much like sheep people can be. There are many who want to say capitalism has failed as if it has been honest capitalism we've even been under. If they influence the economic system while good people sleep through it all that would be just a mess for this country. But, if I'm correct, and this whole thing has been organized with the largest and most damaging displays yet to come there are forces in each city ready to spring into action at some point and cause enough societal and civil chaos that our systems get overloaded and broken. I see the goals of overloading local sanitation systems, destroying power supply, mis-directing police, fire, and medical crews, overloading jails and courts, stopping local commerce affecting the income and safety of citizens, loss of jobs, local operating budgets, intimidation of seniors, and basically the chaos terrorists would perpetrate. They are worse for this nation than all the collective hedge-funds and the banks shorting crap mortgage funds they knew to be crap but were selling long to investors. Personally, I have little doubt still that, as you get to the inward circles of this thing it is still all about power. And power involves money. It's highly suspect. I don't trust the motives. They are based on emotion and attract by emotion. This is how recruiting is done for terrorism, whackjob religious cults and such. If it were honest there would be clarity. They're hiding the whole core of what they're up to. By "they" I mostly refer to the 1% powerbase within this wrongly named "99%" movement. They have their own 1% and they worry me far more than do the existing 1%. Biggest problem? This will distract from really correcting this control that the Fed and the financial and geo-political elites have over the economy and any chance we may ever have of preventing our coming to this one-world society and rule. Come to think of it, I see a lot of one-world speak in the OWS movement. And that is the very same goal as the 1%. Something is EXTREMELY FISHY here.

[-] 0 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

no. no more delays and talk. your idea is a red-herring. an old red-herring. time's up. now we act. now we stand up. and "credit is a decent thing, the problem is that it is being abused by a minority"? what alternate parallel universe do you live in? do you remember 2008 at all, something called TARP? a small minority? that's laughable. the problem is systemic and the system needs to end now and replaced by a democratic economic system where the people's voice is THE voice that makes the economic decisions. not corrupt and immoral/unethical corporations who own our government. but, I think I am going to stop replying to posts now. I am starting to work on some ideas and now I am very interested in putting into action.

[-] 1 points by TheCloser (200) 2 years ago

CASH ECONOMY and Simple living

[-] 1 points by OWSreferee (9) from New York, NY 2 years ago

Very short term solution. 3/10. Not good at all.

[-] 1 points by Builder (4202) 2 years ago

Interesting research results here;

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg21228354.500-revealed--the-capitalist-network-that-runs-the-world.html

The idea that a few bankers control a large chunk of the global economy might not seem like news to New York's Occupy Wall Street movement and protesters elsewhere (see photo). But the study, by a trio of complex systems theorists at the Swiss Federal Institute of Technology in Zurich, is the first to go beyond ideology to empirically identify such a network of power. It combines the mathematics long used to model natural systems with comprehensive corporate data to map ownership among the world's transnational corporations (TNCs).

When the team further untangled the web of ownership, it found much of it tracked back to a "super-entity" of 147 even more tightly knit companies - all of their ownership was held by other members of the super-entity - that controlled 40 per cent of the total wealth in the network. "In effect, less than 1 per cent of the companies were able to control 40 per cent of the entire network," says Glattfelder. Most were financial institutions. The top 20 included Barclays Bank, JPMorgan Chase & Co, and The Goldman Sachs Group.

[-] 1 points by studentrallynyc (29) 2 years ago

http://www.facebook.com/balancetransferday

Make your voice heard across the Nation on December 11 2011

Balance Transfer Day

[-] 1 points by nmj77 (2) from Seattle, WA 2 years ago

Vote with your wallet. Corporations operate on small profit margins, a small drop in consumption gets they're attention. Look at the way the tuna industry changed the way they did business when a few moms stopped buying tuna.

[-] 0 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

totally untrue. 88% of real revenue in America went to corporate profits, only 1% went to salary and wages. The top 30 most profitable corporations paid zero income tax in the past three years. I, as an individual paid more income tax than the top most profitable corporations combined !! wow. voting and wallets have not and will not work. corporations own both of those. this is what this movement is about. direct action and voicing our concerns in a way that cannot be ignored. the beginning is near.

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

Your phrase "We can die by a thousand cuts" really resonates with me. That is what modern life is all about. I like to call it being pecked to death by chickens. One thing is certain - we need to restore human dignity - need to assert our right to a life of dignity. I think "teacher" has spent too long being abused by anyone and everyone to remember that he/she is really a human being. You are right, I think. We are headed for upheaval. It will come, either on our terms or someone elses. Why not repudiate our debts? All they are is a chain around our necks, and we know exactly how morally reputable our creditors are. They don't have a problem napalming babies if it feeds their own bank accounts.

I don't say this out of anything but desperation at the current state of the world, and in full knowledge of the probable disasterous consequences, but when your leaders (corporations) have proven themselves to be anti-social, you are left with few options. Desperate situations call for desperate measures. I think the threat of coordinated debt repudiation would at least let the power structure know we mean business. Most of us don't have a chance for a real life anymore, anyway.

[-] 0 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

I think your feelings and mine are pretty common. I am tired of being impotent and afraid. I'm tired of being a slave. I want to be an American. Cheers!

[-] 1 points by bettersystem (170) 2 years ago

you'll get locked in jail or killed, stay slaves?

[-] 1 points by UPonLocal (309) 2 years ago

Adopt an alternative currency system, purely electronic, based on local commodities...and local labor rates as the exchange index...

[-] 1 points by bettersystem (170) 2 years ago

What debt? lol

http://www.hulu.com/watch/151119/the-end-of-poverty

we have no debt...

[-] 1 points by audiman (90) 2 years ago

If you take out a loan for School or a car or anything, you signed a paper saying that you would pay back the loan. I have an Audi A8 that I have a loan for a lot of money. Should I ask Wall Street to pay for my Audi? No! A student loan or any loan is the same thing. You are paying for a service to use others money. Walk away from a loan and all you will do is ruin your credit. How are you going to buy a car or a house in the future if you do not have credit?

[-] 1 points by UPonLocal (309) 2 years ago

An interest free currency system is in place here

http://uponlocal.com/up-on-local-media/content/join-direct-democracy

[-] 1 points by atruemiddleclassman (3) 2 years ago

So I am trying to understand what this “movement” is all about. At this point all I have heard is that every one is up set with the bank because the banks expects to be paid back for money lent. Why did you borrow more money then you could pay back? And why is it my problem that you are irresponsible. If you walk away from your debts then you are not only Irresponsible you are a liar and a thief.

I am a middle class working man and I am offended that you claim to represent me. None of you represent me. You are not the 99% if at all I would call you the 30%.

[-] 1 points by atruemiddleclassman (3) 2 years ago

So I am trying to understand what this “movement” is all about. At this point all I have heard is that every one is up set with the bank because the banks expects to be paid back for money lent. Why did you borrow more money then you could pay back? And why is it my problem that you are irresponsible. If you walk away from your debts then you are not only Irresponsible you are a liar and a thief.

I am a middle class working man and I am offended that you claim to represent me. None of you represent me. You are not the 99% if at all I would call you the 30%.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

you aren't trying to understand this "movement". you came here to insult and complain.

[-] 1 points by LoveToLickCum (54) 2 years ago

For the 1000th time, I have!

[-] 1 points by nucleus (3291) 2 years ago

Economic warfare is a powerful and effective strategy. As victims of it we, know all too well just how effective it is.

But there are different kinds of debt. The loan that enabled you to buy a house or car, if legitimately offered and managed, is a responsibility you should be happy to work for and pay off. The 30% interest on a credit card is not. Neither is the trillions of dollars of national "debt" that bailed out banks and funded wars of corporate conquest.

I'm all for opting out, but would be fairly specific about what gets opted out of. Banks, big-box stores, corporate franchises like Starbucks, etc. are all perfect targets, as is everything made in China. We need to build a sustainable society by putting our money into local business instead of the greedy hands of global corportions.

And let's not forget taxes. 1/3 of the federal budget is to maintain a military that is essentially the security arm of the corporate finacial complex. We directly subsidize corporations that do not pay taxes directly (cash) and indirectly (infrastructure). Opting out of Federal taxes is an essential part of economic warfare.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

and let's not forget that corporate welfare composes another 1/3 of our annual federal budget.

[-] 1 points by OneVoice (153) 2 years ago

Politicians were given a great blue print to govern in a modified form of democracy. The foundation and structure is solid but our politicians have become poor tenants. Our corporate elite were given a well thought out system of investment banking and business models that were taught to them in Business Schools. Their desire for unsustainable yearly double digit returns motivated them to become highly creative with government and private money. Unregulated globalization of our banking and business models were accomplished by influencing our democratic form of government. The first step to fixing our government is get rid of all the elected tenants that Occupy Government,

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

just as we have separation of church and state, we need separation of corporation and state. no where in the constitution does it state or imply that business should be left to business. business doesn't own our economy. its ours - the people's. and it should benefit us first and foremost.

[-] 1 points by juco (77) 2 years ago

And let's get high!!!!!!! Be irresponsible! Your parents and children must be so proud of you!!

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

getting high is better than being greedy anyday.

[-] 1 points by BradB (2693) from Washington, DC 2 years ago

hear hear .... ;)

[-] 1 points by JesseHeffran (3903) 2 years ago

Why my Class is Better than no Class

As the ship travels through the ocean A disaster strikes of epic proportion The ship cracks and all feel the distortion Rats scamper to stern and bow or fall below From high above eagles swoop swift and low Minnows dance with the flow. The boat slowly begins to crack and sink The rats are pushed all the way to the brink They gouge the eagles with killer instinct All is chaos up above, while minnows dance in sync The eagles’ hunger is at last un abated The rats drag them down; all has faded. The minnows dance; the chum is raided.

[-] 1 points by davboz (79) 2 years ago

Poor tulcak. All he's got is "you're an idiot." I think there IS some cause for concern though, as there really seem to be a lot of these creatures who've gotten nothing out of their college loans but Communist indoctrination. Just as with terrorists the greater likelihood is that these recruits are the disaffected youth, some people who've had emotional damage at home, but most without any real direction and have gotten stuck on a myopic outlook that has been the only thing that inspires them. Theirs is not a logical view but an emotional one. Their views are motivated by that part of the brain that responds to thrill and risk-taking. They are motivated by envy and in many cases an inferiority that only is resolved by the sense of power found in passive-aggressive resistance. Some are motivated by a greed of their own combined with an anxiety so great that they WILL NOT agree to working, over time, to grow wealth of their own.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

communist, terrorists, disaffected youth, risk-taking, passive-aggressive, greed and will not work. wow. pretty impressive.

[-] 1 points by davboz (79) 2 years ago

Mix a little brain-science in to help inform your worldview. Of course self-reflection is moot in your case. You wouldn't engage in it anyway.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

how do you know? you don't know me.

[-] 1 points by zoom6000 (430) from St Petersburg, FL 2 years ago

walk away,if you worry about your credit will be cleared in 7 years

[-] 1 points by outsidethebox (27) from Dorset, VT 2 years ago

Iceland did it.

[-] 1 points by annonasandra (48) 2 years ago

What do you mean? Say more. Please.

[-] 1 points by seeker (242) 2 years ago

Occupy your home...Or any bank owned empty property...Housing is a basic right..

[-] 1 points by Qualanqui (2) 2 years ago

I was around 8k in debt due to being stupid when I was younger but 3 years ago I stopped paying and once the dropped my credit nothing, they threatened to take me to court but dropped there balls after a few of those letters and I haven't heard a thing from them in ages so this idea has merit they can't prosecute (or persecute) everyone

[-] 0 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

It definitely could work. I need to read through all these posts, but, I've got an idea myself concerning a nationwide mortgage protest that will take "walking away from your debt" through several legal steps to get it accomplished. The central idea is that it is difficult to track ownership of the mortgages because they were bundled by the 100's into a sub-prime product AND MERS has done such an awful job of tracking ownership. That means, if the bank can't prove ownership, they can't evict or demand payment. I think there is a core there for a good ideal. Anyone else have some ideas?

[-] 1 points by MortgagedTent (121) 2 years ago

You know. This is actually an interesting idea. If everyone simultaneously walked away from their debt we would kill the interest based banking rackett instantaneously. But before we start, can you let me know. I have no debt and I'd like to run some up before we begin:)

[-] 1 points by suyabaa01 (244) from Milford, CT 2 years ago

Government debt is a Ponzi scheme. If you don't believe me, listen to Edward Griffin, the author of "The Creature From Jekyll Island" ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bhMacPvc5qc ).

Government debt is implanted into our political systems without our consult and consent. It's not our commitment, it's theirs. THEY STILL HIDE IT, THEY STILL DON'T TELL US THE TRUTH. They signed it under great secrecy. THEY SIGNED IT, THEY OWN IT; NOT US.

TO THE PEOPLE OF ALL NATIONS (including us): Do not accept austerity measures (here we called it "balancing the budget"). Do not pay the cost of politicians' greed and dishonesty. National debt is their debt, not ours. Don't let them get away with it. Protect your freedom from this global BANKING CARTEL.

Remember Napoleon Bonaparte: "The hand that gives is above the hand that takes. Money has no motherland; financiers are without patriotism and without decency: their sole object is gain." This is what is happening to all of us.

LET THEM TAKE THEIR LOSSES THIS TIME. DO NOT ACCEPT AUSTERITY MEASURES.

[-] 1 points by MisguidedYouth2 (165) 2 years ago

Let me guess. You owe more money to others than is thinkable to the average person, and now want to take everyone off a cliff with you because you don't have the guts to simply declare personal bankruptcy. Don't be a pussy. If you want to get out from under your debt, there is a legal and ethical way to do so.

[-] 0 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

yeah, that's right... I've never met you and you got me figured out spot on! wow! houdini couldn't have done better. and let me guess, you're a lucky bastard with rich parents who's never been homeless. where do these dimwits come from?.... you're an idiot.

[-] 1 points by MisguidedYouth2 (165) 2 years ago

Who else would propose something so stupid? Geez if I didn't know better I'd say your a communist from Prague? Still angry about that cold war thing?

[-] 0 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

something as stupid as what? why do you want to know who I am? what does that have to do with the topic? I've got two people who want to attack me personally instead of discuss the topic. why is that? is it easier to attack someone personally than to actually use your brain to discuss the topic. answer me this: what's the topic? hint: you may want to go to the top of the page and read the topic again. you're an idiot.

[-] 1 points by MisguidedYouth2 (165) 2 years ago

I really don't give a rats ass who you are. Suggesting everyone walk away from their debt simply leads me to the conclusion doing so might be in your personal best interest, but only if enough people follow your lead. You don't have the sack to walk away all by your lonesome self.

[-] 0 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

I already have walked away from my debts. and, I've actually got testicles in my "sack" as well. Its not just a shrivelled up empty bag. All your conclusions are wrong. And, why is it you feel compelled to come to a discussion about something you are against? Why don't you go to the tea party web site and discuss there about how to give even more money and tax breaks to the banks and corporations. Discuss how to reward them for our economic collapse instead of throwing them in jail. I think that'd suit you better.

[-] 1 points by MisguidedYouth2 (165) 2 years ago

so now we're all paying more interest on our credit because you're so much smarter and even more special than the rest of us. We on the other hand are stupid to believe in beig accountable for our debts and to value our credit worthiness. got it!

tulcak has no sack. hey that rhymes!

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

you're paying higher interest because of just me? I really don't think so. how absurd you are.

[-] 1 points by AlternativeSynergy (224) 2 years ago

They already are.

[-] 1 points by MaxRommel (57) from Ridgefield Park, NJ 2 years ago

I have no debt.

[-] 1 points by AnonDan (27) 2 years ago

"Fuck no. I m the 1% and I own you debtors. You guys got to pay for my yachts and escorts. Keep buying shit from China, you people. We own them low pay, long hours cheap labors too. I don't hear them complaining. Oh wait, I don't go there and I don't speak chinese."

[-] 1 points by LoveToLickCum (54) 2 years ago

I did.....feels great

[-] 1 points by davboz (79) 2 years ago

Debt involves a contract. A contract is agreed to on 2 sides. One side was YOU. Now - what is next is to prove whether or not you have any ethics, morals, self-respect, or sense of yourself as part of a community where only a goddamed minority thinks the way YOU do! You see, an increase in the irresponsible and the financially uneducated is what got us into this mess. Now YOU surface - a mega version of irresponsibility and stupidity. So FIRST, "progressive" Democrats setup a platform ready-made for the ignorant and the irresponsible to jump headlong right into and bring us this economic mess. That refers to the criminals in Congress, the GSE's, the Fed, the lies and brainwashing that pushed loans to dumbassed and the halfwitted who in turn lived up to that description by aplying for and taking these loans. ("Yah! Ahmo get this house here, werf 'bou fo-unner thousn dolla. . payn, oh,... two hunnert a monf! Said sumpnbou some bloon paymin due in twenfo month I guess...Sheeyit. Ahmo have me a job by then anneweh. This sposed to double in value inbou twomo yeer anneweh. Plus ahgottme teeyen gran cash back fo uno whatever a gonn need foda house but heyell. Itz all good. Nome Zane?") Their decisions affected the rest of us. SO, N O W you want to step UP the level of stupid,put on a face of intelligently speaking but knowing nothing of the vitrues of REAL capitalism, the poison and evil of socialism (closer to true fascism, on the left) and learned enough in Alinsky, SunTsu, Marx, just smart enough to be now TRULY dangerous,and crash the whole system thereby rendering every well intentioned middle-aged couple or senior who just want to retain some value in their investments so they can live out their days in comfort, insolvent in the end? A nd you want to make life hell for them so you can get your nuts off and feel powerful 'cause you just opened the door for your stinky little socialist utopia where everybody's on welfare and is destined to live like it the rest of their days? Not here, pal. I say screw you. Screw the hell out of YOU. IF you want socialism it is very simple. Move to where they already have it. A little perspective makes it clear that, at the apex, where you're headed to, is a few million good 'ol boys all the way from Eastern Oregon, across the flatlands, to the Carolinas comin' to kick your asses if you push this too far. Strap it up.

[-] 0 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

blah blah blah... your world is violent and uncaring. debt is not supposed to decide how humans treat each other. you are the one that is a brain-washed slave. a butt slave to corporations. keep your sandpaper condoms handy and stay in that bent over position. keep bailing out banks and ignoring the gutting of your own family and neighbors and community. keep worshiping that almighty dollar - praise the lord and pass the ammo. you're an idiot.

[-] 1 points by davboz (79) 2 years ago

Except for the fact that if one of us is an idiot, it is surely you, few would disagree that what needs to be corrected is - the FREAKING BAILOUTS to start with!!! That is legislation. That's Government. The there's enforcement of existing regulations. Again - Government! Allowing The Fed to run the show - Government! True capitalism is highly self-correcting. Tell anyone they have a bailout coming down the road and they will take risks at an elevated level. You need to do some studying, and some research. You guys need to learn about the system and how it works before you can complain about it. The housing antics of the Federal Government are what is responsible for where we are and you have no idea what it is you want to do except what your professors fed you - "Topple capitalism. Force chaos and usher in a Socialist State." And you have no idea what that really means. You are of another ideology that is incompatible with what has been the root of this nation's wealth and success. Socialist revolution has little to do with correcting people's sense of deprivation. It is absolutely your very message that screams your complete lack of insight into the way things are, the sources of today's problems, which actions were done by whom, and for what reasons. You would know that most DO see the bailouts as an absolute screwing - AS DO I. I currently make barely over poverty wages but have enough of a brain and enough ethics, morals, whatever, to honor what I agreed to as a grown-up and to know that being able to utter progressive new-speak doesn't equal intelligence. The difference between you and me is I have an ability to assess the current situation and to have any logical insights beyond your misplaced, dysfunctional over-emotional interpretations of what is going on in the world. IT is EXACTLY my caring for the overall good which informs my outlook. Your vision says you are misguided and, to some degree, probably emotionally damaged. You disdained economics, avoided notions traditionally spiritual, and, while hating and despising to their core anyone who has anything to do with those things you have always thought yourself to be caring and loving - but only to those who hate the same people as deeply as you do. I know you better than you know yourself. Now you think anyone who holds your long-hated ideas MUST be behind the problems we face and the crimes behind those problems. You claim to be apolitical but you are one of the most partisan creatures on the planet. Your emergence is a sign of the decay we've been seeing since the creation of the Fed. Your thoughts are like a bacteria to be studied but only after they are cut & cauterized. They are like a biological response to corrupt styles government our forefathers fled from to give birth to America. To set the record straight, once again, if you think you are barking up the correct tree, I must let you know that it is you, regretfully, who is the idiot.

[-] 0 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

that's quite a rant. meaningless and long-winded, but impressive in its length. you realize you really didn't say anything?

[-] 1 points by davboz (79) 2 years ago

Not in the least. But I do see that you simply don't understand much of anything. As I implied above, you have emotional blockages preventing you from attributing meaning to the world around you.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

and you really don't have any problems with blockages. sort of like stuff through a goose. and so incoherent. its a chain of consciousness of paranoid with a Napoleonic syndrome who also has delusions of being someone.

[-] 1 points by JesseHeffran (3903) 2 years ago

Globalization: the act of taking off the jack boots and putting on Business suits.

[-] 1 points by Bellaciao29 (99) 2 years ago

This is the more syntetic, right and true suggestion that could be given: "walk away from your debt". We should translate it in all the languages and repeat it as far as all the inhabitants of the world will realize what they have to do in order to save themselves and the whole Humanity. In italian the sentence could be translated with these words: " Non pagare i tuoi debiti e non farne più".

[-] 1 points by Disgruntled1 (107) from Kula, HI 2 years ago

Ive walked away a few times, if Donald trump can why not? The CC companies cant do much, if you have nothing to take neither can anyone else!

[-] 1 points by annonasandra (48) 2 years ago

Taking into consideration Native's comments, maybe we should stop paying debt (what debts? Student loan debt? All debt?) not forever, but until the laws regarding that debt are reformed. And we should be able to offer reforms. When the laws are changed so that we actually CAN succeed, then we should begin to pay our debts.

What are people thinking about this? (Besides, mad, scared thoughts. Please don't reply just to say you are angry and hate my ideas. Instead pose a different idea. Let's talk about ideas.) Thanks so much.

[-] 0 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

You're missing the whole point of this topic (my topic by the way). I am suggesting that we not reform the present system, but to collapse it so as to put another in its place. How can you reform a system where corporate power has the sway? corporate power is the problem - its in our government and its unregulated and caused the economic melt-down. I am saying that everyone should refuse to pay their debt so as to collapse the present unchangeable system. Corporations like it just the way it is thank you and they control it. Are you suggesting that we should go knock at their door with hat in hand and to ask, pretty please, can we change the system within which you are making profit hand over fist? Am I understanding this correctly?

[-] 1 points by annonasandra (48) 2 years ago

I really like your reply. You and I do think the same. I too think we should crash the system. In fact, I think the system is going to crash no matter what we do, and that actually, we don't have to do anything, that all of this is just moot-spent energy.

But look at the people who are replying here. Some of them, granted, just want to hear themselves spout sarcasm (because that's what they have been brainwashed into doing) and are NOT being productive to the conversation. But look at others.

People are scared to death. And they are angry. I am scared to death. You and I might think we have a good idea, but we need to consider others. We need to listen to what they have to say.

I want to say to them that being inactive is also not the solution, and it WILL NOT cause us to live in less fear.

What about those who have too much to lose? (They are going to lose it anyway. I know, I know.)

[-] 1 points by number2 (914) 2 years ago

Your debt and the credit rating system are shackles that you voluntarily carry. Just throw them away.

[-] 1 points by davboz (79) 2 years ago

Bingo --- "voluntarily".

[-] 0 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

amen bro/sis

[-] 1 points by native (29) 2 years ago

Have spent the past hour reading through this forum because as one of the 99, I wanted to understand the perspectives of the OWS movement; and the "debt-concept of anarchy" in this one particularly facinated me. I am encouraged to see that the vast majority of people commenting are not buying into anarchy. Though it's difficult to see any real solutions being formulated by OWS, at least the people commenting here seem to be thoughtful and educated. Maybe we should thank mr prague for reminding us of what America really represents.

[-] 1 points by annonasandra (48) 2 years ago

You rock, Native!

Thank you Mr. Prague.

[-] 1 points by JPB950 (2254) 2 years ago

You may get to see what walking away from debt does if Greece defaults. There may be a collapse that hurts more of the 99% then the 1% people are so fired up over. The pension I've been contributing to, social security, my savings, these dollars aren't sitting in a box somewhere, they are in those failed mortgages, car loans, government loans to students and countries. You've got to know that the heads of corporations will pull themselves clear of all that leaving the rest of us to suffer the loss.

[-] 1 points by native (29) 2 years ago

Thanks JPB for representing the 99% of the 99% who are responsible people who pay back the money they borrowed.

[-] 0 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

what do you know about Greece? do you live there? do you live in Europe? Yes, people all over the world are experiencing corporate greed and the power they wield in our daily lives, but, if you are assuming things work the same throughout the world as they do in the US, you are very much mistaken and very arrogant to assume this.

[-] 1 points by JPB950 (2254) 2 years ago

Relax, that's why I used the word "may". The situation in Greece is a big unknown, they may default, they may not, the results of default are an unknown too. I only know what I read on line in news reports. I also see men like George Soros, who have been bailed out in the past when a country's currency he was betting on failed. It gives me the belief that the 1% won't get hurt from a collapse. It's the people that have worked and tried to save in one way or another that will get hurt. I make no assumptions, I just have an opinion that walking away from loan obligations, that an individual or nation agreed to, can have implications far beyond hurting a few bankers or corporate heads.

[-] 0 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

you don't get it. the present system has decimated Americans. What else can happen to us? we have local credit unions. we don't need corporations or banks to help us "survive". In fact, after the present business system collapses, Americans can quickly build a better life. its them that is keeping us from doing that. Am I supposed to be afraid if the banks and corporations go away? are you insane? I welcome it. then, the American people, people around the world can start building a humane and compassionate world.

[-] 1 points by JPB950 (2254) 2 years ago

In one way you're right, I don't get it. The main point was that the money loaned out doesn't belong to the bank, it belongs to depositors. When I got a mortgage, car loan, student loan, I went to the bank, they didn't come around and force me into something. I certainly didn't go asking for money from someone then complain about the terms I had agreed to. If everyone walks away from their responsibilities that would also seem to be an act of greed and it's got to hurt more then just the banks and corporations.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

hurt more than now?

[-] 1 points by JPB950 (2254) 2 years ago

Could be, I don't know, but I've seen enough unintended consequences to things to be concerned. What is a likely sequence of events? Banks fail, government runs out of money to pay depositors and simply prints more, things fall apart and we get hyperinflation and more unemployment. This 1%, the truly rich can suffer a 50% loss maybe more, without a problem. If the price of everything doubles or triples due to inflation the rest of us are stuck. All because people made bad decisions about loans and decided they didn't need to stick to what they agreed to.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

so, you believe that without the banks and corporations, the American people will just give up and die? wow. that's not the America I know.

[-] 1 points by JPB950 (2254) 2 years ago

The banks and corporations weren't the main point, it was the loans and people deciding to walk away from their obligations. I believe that people, ordinary people, will be economically damaged by a collapse of the banks if everyone that owes money walks away from their responsibility. The failure of people to pay their mortgages is one of the things that got us in this mess. It's the sudden change in the banking structure that can harm individuals, and I believe society in general is hurt if it's members decide to break the agreements they made. Ironic that you mention giving up and dying as being un-American in your America, yet the original post recommends giving up on agreements borrowers made.

[-] 0 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

there were many times I wanted to give up and die. but, despite it all, I didn't. why? couldn't tell you. "society in general" as you put it (seems an odd thing to say as if society is not all that important or definable to you) is already hurt and millions of "individuals" (I find your terms illuminate your thinking quite well) have been destroyed because of the present system of corporate greed. I feel your concern is selfish. You are concerned about losing your pile of marbles. You could care less about anyone else. that's the only reason you don't want people to walk away from their debt.

[-] 1 points by JPB950 (2254) 2 years ago

Self interest is a part of everything. We make agreements with others all the time out of self interest, no one borrows just to borrow, they get something important to them with that money. It may help the community in general if people are educated or have homes, but that's just a bonus for society. It's self interest that makes most people decide to go to college, open a business, or buy a home. Will I be hurt me personally if everyone walks away from their loans? Maybe, it's hard to know at what point the FDIC won't be able to cover bank failures. I don't know what corporations my pension fund is invested in. Any fear or unease is balanced by a belief that most people will not choose to simply stop paying what they owe. My original point was that it's irresponsible to default, there are things that can happen that we can't foresee, and that the 1% is seldom the group that actually suffers. The Wall Street Journal carried an article on line today that points out the unintended result of people switching to credit unions. More irony, what was done to hurt the banks is being looked at as a positive change by those banks. They are loosing the small customers that cost more to service then they bring in.

[-] 1 points by CoExist (178) 2 years ago

Money is Debt so what would happen would be interesting. The government, being the largest debtor cannot repay its own debts without printing money out of nothing. With this printing practice you get Infinite Debt. As should be evident by now, to base an economy on returned interest is a pretty stupid way of servicing a nation's need to produce, consume and trade. Its all very puzzling.

[-] 1 points by annonasandra (48) 2 years ago

One more thing: it is extremely annoying to read these posts just to get bogged down in arguments between a couple of poeple--all the name calling, all the judgements upon each other.

Let's use this forum, not to tell our person stories or make judgements on each other value systems. Let's use this forum to organize against criminal activity. No matter what everyone's personal story is, we ARE dealing with criminal activity and we need to stand up against it, or it is just going to keep going on.

The fact that some of us are sitting around arguing, just delays action. Let's talk about action. Thank you.

[-] 1 points by annonasandra (48) 2 years ago

I agree that we should walk away from all of our debts. It should be an organized movement with a message sent on the day we choose to do it letting debt collectors know that this is a mass decision by the 99%. These are just ideas, of course. I have been reading these posts, and I see a lot of fear expressed about retributions foisted on the 99% for these hypothetical actions. Think it through. If a hundred people stopped paying their debts, a hundred need to fear retribution. But what if millions do? It's a different story at that point. Who is going to track down, all of these people? What court system is going to process all the cases? Who is going to contact all of the employers to garnish wages? How long before employers themselves refuse to comply with garnishment? What states are going to allow all of these millions to be forced out of their homes onto streets, when state budgets are already strained or bankrupted? At what point will states themselves defy federal laws and tell people just to stay in their homes? What states want to lose (or can afford to lose) property tax revenues so that banks can massively turn people out of their homes? We are in an economic situation where our actions CAN make a difference, especially if we organize our actions, stick together, send a message--probably an ultimatum--and act.

I especially think it is time to stop paying student loan debt in mass.

I have responded to other posts on this forum and offered (as an idea) the date of Jan. 1, 2012 as a date to organize and stop paying student loan debt. Yes, it's frightening. We have to deal with fear; we cannot let it paralize us. But I ask you, is there any less fear involved with letting this continue? Are you ready to say that business as usual should continue for the next generation (Your kids, my kids, everyone's kids)? Is that OK? No. We all know it's not OK.

I am sorry for any misspelled words in this post. Thank you for listening. I look forward to the conversation.

[-] 1 points by native (29) 2 years ago

here's a better idea, all those in favor of this proposition, just send your name to the major credit agencies, they can make a list of everyone supporting this suggestion and you will never have to worry about getting a loan or a job as long as you live here! Problem solved!

[-] 1 points by annonasandra (48) 2 years ago

No. Unfortuanately, problem not solved. Try again.

I don't claim to have the greatest ideas in the world. It's time to hear ideas. If you have an idea that you think would work better, please put it out for us to think about. I don't think the idea you posed will work. We have real problems here. Let's try to solve them. Let's start by being less sarcastic to each other. Maybe then we can get somewhere.

If interest on loans is being capitalized and people cannot pay their debts off because their income does not support the payments, what should they do?

Just saying "Pay your bills" is not the solution.

Just sending your name to the credit card companies so they can ruin your life is not the solution.

Just sitting around having online arguments while people's lives are being ruined (and our economy suffers from these ruined lives) is not the solution.

If refusing to pay our debts is also not the solution, then what is?

That's what we need to talk about.

Please come to the discussion with the idea that you have something to contribute, besides sarcasm.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

That sounds great. Now what do we do to get it started? Any ideas people? Also, we need to let the American people know that MERS cannot prove that the banks own the mortgages. If this is the case, the banks cannot evict and cannot make people pay.

[-] 1 points by annonasandra (48) 2 years ago

What is MERS?

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

google

[-] 0 points by karenpoore (902) 2 years ago

I could never understand why the people had to go into debt to pay for an education and then go work for a corporation who makes profit off of them.

[-] 1 points by native (29) 2 years ago

WOW what a concept - no more jobs, no more food, no more transportation, doctors or hospitals, no more of the things mankind has been building since THE LAST DARK AGES 500 years ago, yeah, let's go back to the plague days, that sounds so organic! Everyone suffering and hopeless, it's like progressive right?

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

oh my god, you're right! what have I been thinking! everyone, please forget what I have been saying. "native" is right. my god, I have been supporting the complete collapse of humankind. "native" get real. we don't need banks and corporations for us to survive. you talk as if they weren't there, we'd be helpless and unable to do anything for ourselves. what a lame excuse for an American you are. WE can do anything we set our minds to and we don't need banks and corporations to take care of us. WE are the people, we are this country and this government. take your slave talk somewhere else. you're an idiot.

[-] 1 points by native (29) 2 years ago

well, my plan in life has worked out to far greater success than your own self-reported dismal life where you ended up moving to prague to find work. you've lost your job, your home and your credit.

Meanwhile, I have a good, rewarding, successful life by anyone's standards.

You call a lot of people idiots, that usually indicates a person's opinion about themselves. Hope you stay in prague, we don't need any more slackers over here in the usa.

[-] 0 points by karenpoore (902) 2 years ago

Wait Native. It will be at your back door too.

[-] 1 points by native (29) 2 years ago

Gosh, what a nihilistic view of life. Faith in failure, is that all you can contribute to the conversation?

I lost my home to Hurricane Ike a few years back, along with everything in it. That's real. But that wasn't enough to make me give up and wish the same on everyone else in the country. We cleaned up the destruction and rebuilt our home. That's what responsible people do.

[-] 0 points by karenpoore (902) 2 years ago

Sweetie, it is reality. The way we are living is not sustainable. www.activistpost.com/2010/08/10-signs-us-is-becoming-third-world.html www.activistpost.com/2011/11/world-war-3-foregone-conclusion-video.html

I admire you for rebuilding ...

[-] 0 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

oh my god, you're right again! now go away. there is no useful discussion here. you're an idiot.

[-] 1 points by native (29) 2 years ago

by the way, I'm not going anywhere - I live here!

[-] 1 points by native (29) 2 years ago

My impression is that people are looking for constructive feedback, how can they get that from a self-proclaimed down and out failure? Do you really think anyone aspires to be like you?

[-] 0 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

i'm not the leader. i don't want anybody to be like me. you're impression is wrong and, yes, you're an idiot.

[-] 0 points by karenpoore (902) 2 years ago

The only problem is that people have given control over all areas of their lives to others and have become lazy. What would most people do if there was no bread at the grocery store? Do they know how to grow their own food? That is why I say that people need to learn to be more self sustainable.

[-] 0 points by annonasandra (48) 2 years ago

Really? Do you really think farmers are going to stop farming, teachers are going to stop teaching, doctors are going to stop doctoring? Do you really think there is no work to do? There is SO much work to do. We need to create a system in which we are working for our own good, not just being cogs in the wheel that turns for someone else's good.

Have faith.

Or look up the work of Dimitry Orlov who educates us about the fall of the USSR. It's scary, and not pretty, but everything does not stop in a collapse.

[-] 1 points by native (29) 2 years ago

My faith is based on good sound judgement and hard work, not some fairy tale system you can't describe. Being one of those cogs that makes the world turn round for the good of everyone is one of the best feelings in the world. It's called a job. Beats the heck out of the despair you are advocating. You can go on trying to promote your "working for your own good" system and bemoaning your station in life forever. And by the way, even farmers, doctors and teachers want to be paid for their work. I am a farmer and my husband is a teacher, so I know!

[-] 1 points by annonasandra (48) 2 years ago

OK. Then what should we do? Put an idea out so we can talk about it. You're right. I cannot describe the fairy tale system. I don't even think it is a fairytail system.

I want to hear ideas.

[-] 0 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

hmm... you are very self-centered aren't you? after the soviets left Czechoslovakia (now the Czech Republic and Slovakia) in the early '90's, things just didn't collapse. my father was visiting my sister in Germany (military family, I'm a brat) and they drove to Prague. The scaffolding was already up and they were rebuilding planning and the nation was functioning and the people were all making it work. We, I hope, could do as well. So, you may know some things, but, you sure as hell don't know everything. Try and learn if you are going to be here discussing things instead of pontificating and complaining.

[-] -1 points by karenpoore (902) 2 years ago

Let's see farmer and teacher ... you sound very linear. Oh yes, we as humans are doing a great job with our world aren't we! Try thinking outside the box instead of the same ole, same ole.

[-] 1 points by native (29) 2 years ago

yeah, old fashion right? thank goodness it pays the bills, we could be camping out on wall street this winter, living off donations.

[-] 0 points by karenpoore (902) 2 years ago

It is not just the people "camping" out that are in this movement.

www.activistpost.com/2010/08/10-signs-us-is-becoming-third-world.html www.activistpost.com/2011/11/world-war-3-foregone-conclusion-video.html

[-] 1 points by jan1959 (2) 2 years ago

I feel OWSs efforts are directed at the wrong people. Instead of occupying Wall Street you should be occupying DC. Our elected representives, who should work for us, sell their votes to the highest bidders. They are nothing but a bunch of whores. At least the bankers and corporations are what they are and we can choose to boycott and "starve the beasts". We can live within our means, make our own, grow our own, etc. But these politicians need an awakening. They work for us...not wall street, not Exxon, not Walmart, not the unions, etc! They need criminal consequences for selling out. OCCUPY DC!

[-] 0 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

our government is a sub-department of big business. nothing is going to change through the political process. but, already, OWS has changed things. in two short months. see what else the American people can accomplish.

[-] 1 points by overstand (60) 2 years ago

Cancel the debts,artificial money,artificial debt..Bailing out the richest companies,banks,corporations,worldwide,giving bonuses to the very ones who engineered the collapse of the world economy,High Treason is the charge.. Anyone connected to that 20 Trillion dollar bailout,should resign,printing trillions backed by no goods or services is counterfeiting..

[-] 1 points by Windsofchange (1044) 2 years ago

I am all for justice for those who were scammed and have lost their homes as a result. In addition to students who are sitting on huge student debt and are underemployed or unemployed through no fault of their own. NOW with that being said, there are irresponsible and foolish people who brought trouble upon themselves. I have far less sympathy for these people.

This whole walking away from debt thing is a bad idea. It will cause a complete economic collapse in this country and worldwide. If you want to know what real suffering is--you will know after this terrible event happens. It will be far, far worse than what you are going through right now. Once again I am for fighting for justice for those who are in debt because they were conned. WE MUST hold the wall street criminals and world-wide banksters accountable for those crimes. We should focus on that and follow up by debt forgiveness for those who were a true victim of all this--those who were fools--sorry they need to pay the consequences for their bad judgement. This is the way it is. No free pass for them!

We would be in a complete police state if we do what you mentioned on such a large scale. It would go well passed debt collectors going after you and your family members. The police, national guard, and our military forces (who are coming home soon) will be out there hunting down and rounding up those who refuse to pay their debt. They will be thrown in jail, their houses and all valuables taking away to pay off their debt in addition to going into your bank accounts. If you don't think this can happen, think again. What the OWS occupiers/protestors have experienced thus far would not even be the tip of the iceberg if we go into a full police state.

Think about this! It will be the same all over, not just here in the U.S.

[-] 1 points by annonasandra (48) 2 years ago

Windsofchange, how do you know these things would happen--the things you stated in paragraph three? Who is going to do all this terrorizing of families and seizing of property? The police? Remember, we are talking about millions of us refusing to pay criminal dept, not ten people, not 200 people. Millions.

You have hit the nail on the head as far as the ultimate fear among us goes. So let's have a discussion about it. Let's analyse the fear. It is worth talking about. We have to talk about it.

We would be dealing with the richest most powerful MF's if we refused to pay them. Do you (does anybody) suppose they would sequester our own military and turn it against us? Would the military comply?

This is worth giving thought to. I hope more people will respond.

[-] 0 points by karenpoore (902) 2 years ago

Your statement "This whole walking away from debt thing is a bad idea. It will cause a complete economic collapse in this country and worldwide." This is probably correct, but don't worry our financial system is going to collaspe anyway ... just watch AND PREPARE

[-] 1 points by Windsofchange (1044) 2 years ago

Yes, and this will be deliberately done. The powers that be want to change everything. One of their goals is turning this country into a third world one. The attacks on the middle class are very obvious and deliberate. There will be no middle class in the near future--just the haves and have nots. This is the NWO steamroller moving along in full force.

Here is an interesting article I can across a while back. It is most alarming. http://www.activistpost.com/2010/08/10-signs-us-is-becoming-third-world.html

[-] 0 points by karenpoore (902) 2 years ago

I will read the article. Are you aware of the website: economiccollapseblog?

[-] 1 points by Windsofchange (1044) 2 years ago

No, but I will look into it. I have read other articles online about an upcoming economic collapse. This will be like the reset button the greedy elitists have long desired. I don't want to sound negative, but we will see wages severely plunge and all the labor laws and workers right formed in the last century will go out the window. There will be a new level of poverty in America and of course the middle class will be gone. Many will become debt slaves.

[-] 0 points by karenpoore (902) 2 years ago

No, it is not negative but reality! I do believe that America has been resource hogs of the world and less materialism is in order. What level of poverty are we talking about?

[-] 0 points by karenpoore (902) 2 years ago

Watch the article I just posted ... there may be hope through it all.

[-] 0 points by karenpoore (902) 2 years ago

Thank you so much for the link >>> WOW! Here is another video on there:

www.activistpost.com/2011/11/world-war-3-foregone-conclusion-video.html

[-] 1 points by Windsofchange (1044) 2 years ago

Thanks.I hope we don't get caught up into a WWIII There has been concerns that Israel will attack Iran and want us to join in with them. That would be a nightmare. Russia and China will back Iran. I don't know where the other top countries stand, but I hope this never comes to past.

[-] 0 points by karenpoore (902) 2 years ago

I hope and pray too.

[-] 0 points by karenpoore (902) 2 years ago

The elimination of the middle class has been going on for a while and it is starting to come to a head or to our back doors and FINALLY some people are waking up.

[-] 0 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

That's my whole point. The present system needs to collapse. Are people really this dense? I WANT THE SYSTEM TO COLLAPSE so we can put another in its place. One that is a democratic economic system where the people are THE voice in making economic decisions. Not immoral, dishonest and corrupt corporations.

[-] 1 points by Windsofchange (1044) 2 years ago

A system collapse will not turn out the way you think trust me. There will be a complete societal breakdown (rioting, looting, killings) followed by a police state (Marshall law, imprisonments, and overall freedoms taking away.) The powers that be are planning on our systems collapsing (but in their way and on their timetable) so that they can get more power and wealth as they turn everything around to benefit them. You are playing into their hands. Please don't forget that we have the most corrupt Congress in office right now who many of them are a 100% bought out by the big corporations. The chips are stacked against us. When was the last time that our Government done anything for the benefit of the people?

We will be entering a new age when this finally happens. It will be the same all around the world. This is the part of the New World Order.

[-] 0 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

I should trust you? you mean, you've been through this before? or, you time-traveled? wow! oh, and by the way, WE, the government have not done anything for a long time.

[-] 1 points by Windsofchange (1044) 2 years ago

I really think you have NO IDEA what you are up against. Start looking at the whole political/economic factor and clear you emotions. You will see a different picture then.

[-] 0 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

what a pompous arrogant wind bag you are. geesh.

[-] 0 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

really, "winds o mange" are you god? I've been waiting ever so long to talk to you. it has to be you since you know everything. you know, the whole omni-potent, all knowing thing. wow, what an honor. by the way, that "evil" thing. well it sort of sucks. you know the greed thing, like corporate greed. whew, bad idea. but, hey, since you're hear now, you can fix that..... you're an idiot.

[-] 1 points by Windsofchange (1044) 2 years ago

No Tulcak, you are a hot-headed emotional creature who needs to think about this thing called CONSEQUENCES. There is always a consequence for out actions. Other people on this board have tried to make you aware of what some of those consequences could be, but you still go on with your idea that everyone walking away from their debt is a good idea--when it absolutely is not.

We must deal with the corruption of the 1%, but not in a foolish way that would only cause collateral damage and hurt the rest of the 99%, which you fail to see because you cannot separate your emotions and think LOGICALLY. So, this is all I will say and I will not respond to you no more. Goodbye!

[-] 0 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

awww... I pissed off god. just when I thought it couldn't get any worse. windsomange damn it.

[-] 1 points by Truthseeker99 (99) 2 years ago

Why do you think Warren Buffet wants to pay more taxes and Bill Gates wants to give 50% of his wealth to charity? They are beginning to realize they are on the wrong side of history.

[-] 1 points by frontierteg (137) from Kalamazoo Township, MI 2 years ago

I'm just really happy the you can't walk away from student debt, not even in bankruptcy.

Otherwise, all college students would claim bankruptcy and walk away at graduation.

I am happy that you can walk away from a home loan without claiming bankruptcy. It give me great pleasure thinking that the banks that took sub-prime mortgages and sold them as AAA investment vehicles are getting stuck, not only having to buy back the investment vehicle plus interest, but the collateral they get (the home) when the borrower walks away is only worth half the mortgage.

Unfortunately, when this happens, people are losing their homes, but the good new is they are typically purchasing a like sized home at a lower interest rate because they've never claimed bankruptcy. Giving up collateral is no where near as bad as bankruptcy.

Keep the focus where it belongs. On the investment bankers and on corporations who manipulate our political process.

[-] 1 points by MBJ (96) 2 years ago

Remind me never to do business with you, or to put myself in any position of having to rely on your integrity.

[-] 0 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

ok, uh by the way, don't ever do business with me or put yourself in any position of having to rely on my integrity. because, I will have to tell you that you are evil and selfish and you've already shown me that you don't like that. get lost you loser. you morally bankrupt a-hole. hit the road, your day is over.

[-] 1 points by MBJ (96) 2 years ago

You're advocating that all Americans shirk their responsibilities, break their legal commitments, and do their best to bring down the economy, but I'm evil and selfish. Got it.

But, I will take your advice and "hit the road." Have spent a couple of days here trying to learn what this movement is all about. I won't bother criticizing it, but yes, I will leave and focus my energy on constructive solutions to real problems.

[-] 0 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

no you won't. you never came to this forum to learn anything. you came here to spout off and show the rest of us how stupid we are. you are an donkey and a cheney with ears. hit the road buddy, your day is over and its good we won't have to hear your crap for long. the beginning is near.

[-] 1 points by WeUsAll (200) 2 years ago

I don't have any debt. Borrowing money means you have to pay interest. Paying banks money for money is for suckers. If everyone just didn't borrow money, we wouldn't be in such a mess now. Live within your means, save for what you want and take responsibility for your own finances.

[-] 1 points by Occupytheimf (134) 2 years ago

And occupy wealthy enclaves. They hate that. Pitch camp @ dick cheneys front lawn. Have nightly bbqs invite growing crowds of 4closed on families & jobless over.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

and the obligatory shooting your friend in the face with a shot gun.

[-] 0 points by raines (699) 2 years ago

Thats trespassing and against the law.

[-] 1 points by justmyos (8) 2 years ago

Hmmm, just stop paying your debt? OK. So, now the banks stop lending money (because they aren't getting paid and everyone is a bad risk) companies can't get money (if you think companies don't function on credit, you're totally ignorant on how business gets done) so there's massive lay-offs, sounds kinda familiar...kinda like THE DEPRESSION YOU IDIOT! (and our current situation) It's not corp. control,it's the fact that the world runs on the rules of ECONOMICS. Get a clue.

[-] 1 points by annonasandra (48) 2 years ago

We already have a depression.

[-] 0 points by karenpoore (902) 2 years ago

Think worse than the last depression ... and that is what is coming. Maybe we need to change "how business gets done"!

[-] 0 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

I'm an idiot? I don't want to see the present system continue. I have nothing more to lose. And your faith in the American people is pathetic. Its like when 9/11 happened, my conservative sister told me that we'd never recover. I told it was bullshit, and that we would. and we did. what we need to recover now is our national spirit. and the 99% will tell you that this spirit is not based on greed.

[-] 1 points by justmyos (8) 2 years ago

First, let me apologize for calling you an idiot. Anyone who posts an idea deserves respect. I blame the caffeine, but there is no excuse, so please accept my apology. Ok, now let me address your comment. People are walking away from their debts, but what exactly are you expecting to happen if this occurs globally and collapses all financial/corporate systems? I'm not really clear on your vision of the aftermath.

[-] 0 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

this is the vision: the powers that be no longer have control and the people will. and the people will make decisions that are good for the people and the planet because we will be thinking of other things besides profit and greed. how can you not understand this? I don't want the present system to exist anymore. I and billions around the world have been living with the pain for decades. The pain of transitioning to a new system would be tolerated and WELCOMED. How can you not understand this unless you have been isolated from it all?

[-] 1 points by justmyos (8) 2 years ago

No, I'm not isolated. In fact, I'm quite involved in local and national affairs. I do understand your thought, but it's a vague ideology. There are people and companies and organizations within the system who respect the planet and don't make profit their main goal. The problem is legislation that allows those who don't to make MORE money, have MORE influence on our politicians which in turn allows these greedy companies to do their damage unrestrained. No need to throw the baby out with the bath water. We don't need a "new system" we need to fix the current one.

[-] 1 points by annonasandra (48) 2 years ago

Nope. Maybe what we need then is to be more focused. Don't walk out on all debt at once. Start with student loan dept. Will everything crash because millions don't pay their student loan dept? Let's think this trough.

PS Everything is going to crash anyway.

[-] 0 points by karenpoore (902) 2 years ago

Yep, just wait a minute you guys ... the financial collapse has already been set in motion ... The way we have been running the world is not sustainable. I would spend some energy in learning to become more self sustainable and fast! Build community, support each other with different skill sets and don't worry about money because I doubt it will have much value, learn to grow food, learn alternative resources for power like cooking with the sun, etc..

[-] 1 points by annonasandra (48) 2 years ago

yeap. You're right.

[-] 0 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

uh, excuse me. our government is a sub-department of big business. the present system IS corporations. what the hell are you talking about? that we should "ask" our own government to make changes to benefit the American people at the cost of corporate profit? is that really what you are saying? you're an idiot.

[-] 1 points by justmyos (8) 2 years ago

No, that's not what I'm saying, but I see you have enough comments regarding the validity of your idea. So I'm ending this thread.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

ok, bu bye...

[-] 0 points by raines (699) 2 years ago

Nothing more to lose? Are you using a computer?

[-] 0 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

no, I liberated it while on a thieving spree to fund my drug habits.

[-] 0 points by raines (699) 2 years ago

jerk

[-] 1 points by genanmer (822) 2 years ago

Money 'is' debt.

The only way to escape debt completely is to replace the monetary system. e.g. gift economy, or resource based economy

[-] 0 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

I can imagine a world without money. But, it would require real adulthood and maturity. How many people in a selfish, greed based society could handle that?

[-] 1 points by genanmer (822) 2 years ago

Very true, significant decision making can not be trusted in the hands of greedy individuals nor greed-driven groups such as corporations.

However for altruistic people/groups to run society there would need to be tremendous collaboration. And that is only possible through many transparent open conversations

[-] 0 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

of course that's true, but, it used to be much more common. we used to call it being a "citizen". everyone used to be a "whistle-blower". yes, there were secrets, but, not as many. to be truly free means you must be able to exist in a society that demands adult behavior and responsibility, and integrity even when no on is watching.

[-] 1 points by genanmer (822) 2 years ago

Information itself has become a source of profit. I think this is one big reason there is so much secrecy.

If scarcity can be created profit can be made. And since we can create abundance scarcity must be created artificially to ensure profitability.

[-] 0 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

its why I love wikileaks. secrets are how the rich and powerful keep their riches and power.

[-] 1 points by genanmer (822) 2 years ago

Exactly. I just hope occupy is successful in transitioning the overall mindset before all the BIG secrets are revealed.

[-] 0 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

revealing secrets is the breaking of the chains of slavery. OWS and the movement of the American people against corporate greed will only strengthen.

[-] 1 points by genanmer (822) 2 years ago

I'm just concerned with the overall reaction by those unprepared.

Many will be forced to face the truth that beliefs they've clung to all their life are false and that their very way of life is a lie. And out of pride they will fight to defend these lies.

[-] 0 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

they are unprepared because they choose to be. they are unprepared for anything outside their construct of reality. but, we already seen their reaction, its nothing new... global warming, the indifference to those around them, etc....

[-] 1 points by velveeta (230) 2 years ago

refine it to say 'we will no longer pay into a corrupt system' -

I want a system where everybody has the opportunity to prosper, a system that rewards work with pay, that rewards investors with returns, a system that is fair, honest, transparent. A system that allows freedom and liberty for the honest and true. A system where the person you cast your vote for will actually represent your interests.

The current system is rigged. It is dishonest. It is opaque. It is a lie.

[-] 2 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

amen. or hallelujah as the case may be

[-] 1 points by annonasandra (48) 2 years ago

Good going Velveeta!

[-] 1 points by jockarum (4) 2 years ago

Wake up, people, wake up.

This crisis is not about debt. This crisis is about the end of cheap oil. Go and educate yourself, read Richard Heinberg's 2003 book The Party's Over. It will teach you how the debt system can only function more or less succesfully through the availability of cheap oil. The moment, the oil price went over the top, the global economic system started crumbling. That's where it all started. Had the oil price remained at $ 10 per barrel indefinitely, nobody would have bothered about the banking system.

We're at peak oil, at the plateau at best.

[-] 1 points by Uriah (218) 2 years ago

Well, not so long ago we had debtors prison, and I think that would come back quick. Real quick.

[-] 1 points by annonasandra (48) 2 years ago

Yes, then we have to storm the Bastile (which I probably spelled wrong). All of this has happened before. Our plight is not new.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

there aren't enough cells and we could never build enough prisons to put people into. do you think that the economic difficulties are faced by just a few people? if so, where in the hell have you been?

[-] 1 points by annonasandra (48) 2 years ago

Yeah, much less draw the tax revenues out of a dying economy to feed them.

[-] 1 points by hivemind (131) 2 years ago

I'm also worried this may mess with the interest rates for the people that still want to try and pay their bills. I'm not an economist or anything but I have a feeling that the more defaults they have, the less faith in their borrowers they'll have and that'll make the interest go up. Correct me if this isn't true.

[-] 0 points by steve001968 (31) 2 years ago

Of course it does. Everyone pays more in all segments from finance to healthcare because of the worthless losers who systematically try to avoid paying what they owe.

[-] 1 points by hivemind (131) 2 years ago

Uh. I don't know about other debt but don't do this with your student loans! Keep in mind that there are no bankruptcy protections on student loans. If you walk away from student debt your lender will ruin your credit, garnish your wages, take anything you have from your bank account including welfare and disability, and/or they will sue you. Certain places can liquidate your assets for you.

Pay your bills. If it's too hard to make payments, try to negotiate. Walk away/file bankruptcy (if you can) if there are no other options. Above all else write to the president and congressmen and ask them to reinstate bankruptcy protection for student loans.

[-] 1 points by Pertello (80) 2 years ago

I am sure that private student loans, like other debts, are barred from taking a government check. Only in the case of federally funded student loans can the government "take back their money", ie; sieze your government check.

[-] 1 points by hivemind (131) 2 years ago

Thank god. At least we have that.

[-] 0 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

those old threats don't work anymore. we are beyond those. are lives have gotten so bad and so desperate, and our credit has been screwed for so long, what threats are left? you've over-played your hand.

[-] 1 points by Rico (3027) 2 years ago

Sure. I urge every member of OWS to walk away from their debt. Frankly, I doubt there is much money in the people of the "movement," and it will have little affect on the national economy. Please do not then ask, however, for later loans to buy cars, houses, etc, or send your children to school. Please also tear up your VISA and ATM cards and operate "cash-only."

[-] 1 points by jeivers (278) 2 years ago

Your tone is pathetic - don't talk down to people whatever point you're trying to make. There are people in OWS with money and people with money who support OWS and we are not against rich people just people with wealth who use it to "game" the system and screw everyone else.

[-] 1 points by annonasandra (48) 2 years ago

Right on!!

[-] 1 points by steve001968 (31) 2 years ago

You mean game the system like walking away from debt you took on like the poster advocates. That gaming the system?

[-] 0 points by jeivers (278) 2 years ago

Sure steve - that makes a lot of sense - I can tell you know what I meant.

[-] 1 points by Rico (3027) 2 years ago

Sorry for the "tone." I only meant to say that folks who choose to "opt out" of the system should understand they must also sacrifice its convenience and benefits where applicable. You might also note that the "system" will simply print more dollars ("liquidity") to keep your financial protest from hurting anything. You'd have to pull out phenomenal amounts of money to have any impact anymore !

[-] 1 points by annonasandra (48) 2 years ago

Yes, that's what we should do. Pull out phenomenal amounts of money. We can do that if we choose.

[-] 1 points by Rico (3027) 2 years ago

But, but it's very nature, OWS doesn't HAVE phenomenal amounts of money !

[-] 1 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 2 years ago

I agree, but wouldn't the point in time to boycott debt be before you borrow money from somebody and promise to pay them back? Not after? It's kind of self-serving to have this anti-debt revelation after already borrowing a bunch of money and spending it.

I had a conversation here with a guy yesterday who simply could not understand the concept that if he borrows $20 from me and then refuses to pay me back, then I'm not going to loan him money again. He called the idea "ridiculous".

[-] 0 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

"don't ask"? what, I am supposed to run up to big daddy money bags mr. banker and ask for permission to have a cool credit card? man, you really are a slave. Citizens are adults who should be making the economic decisions in this country - and not giving away their power and freedom to a company. man, that is really pathetic - your attitude and slave think.

[-] 1 points by Rico (3027) 2 years ago

What ? All I said was that if your VALUES tell you to opt out of the system, then your VALUES should KEEP you out of the system. Do you disagree with that ?

I think my post at http://occupywallst.org/forum/the-power-of-the-people/ is right in line with your thinking. People DO have enormous power to influence the system, and they haven't been using it well.

As you note, WE made the bankers big by borrowing from them and by running every single financial transaction through them. We don't HAVE to do that.

[-] 0 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

right on!

[-] 1 points by abmebratu (349) from Washington, DC 2 years ago

This would nice, but how can you get people to walk away from their debts all at once.

[-] 1 points by steve001968 (31) 2 years ago

No it wouldn't be nice because if in fact everyone actually took complete leave of their senses and did it there would be a financial collapse worldwide that would make the current recession look like a tiny pothole.

[-] 1 points by jeivers (278) 2 years ago

You can't realistically. And some have too much to lose. Just stop using credit.

[-] 0 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

like the strike at the Oakland port.

[-] 1 points by SmartAlx (59) 2 years ago

Even if you don't carry any debt, you still live on debt.

Money IS debt.

(It's not debt you OWE, it's the liability of value that someone else owes you.)

[-] 2 points by steve001968 (31) 2 years ago

DC already came up with 787 Billion that was really more like 825 Billion. Look around. How'd that work? And no closing on 14.5 trillion in debt we can't come up with another Trillion to try to spend our way to prosperity which is an oxymoron in the first place.

[-] 1 points by annonasandra (48) 2 years ago

Right, the debt is growing so fast because of captializing interest. It's not necessarily because people are borrowing the the trillions. This is one of the things that needs changing if we are going to continue to live in a money system, which we are not.

Regardless of what any of us decide to do, money systems are crashing globally. That means, it doesn't matter what choices you make. It doesn't matter if you have "good" or "bad" value systems, and it doesn't matter what your "personal story" is. The money system is collapsing. It is like a mega hurricane, or a meteor headed for earth, or a tsunami. We cannot stop it.

So the question remains: why sacrifice food or shelter to make payments into a dying system? It can die without our money. What we need to concentrate on now is building a new culture, providing basic necessities: food, shelter, transportation, and security for a moneyless population. We need to be able to do this without money. If fact, we can do it. The faster the money system dies, the better. Even though some people were comfortable in the system, doesn't mean they will be separated out and saved from the crash.

In this, we are not divided, though some of us are still living in the illusion that because of our personal value systems and choices we are somehow better people, that things will be OK for us. Things will not be OK. There is real work to do at this time. We need to prioritize. Prioritizing is a survivalist.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

that's psycobabble. can you imagine a world that would work differently? without money or without "liability of value"?

[-] 0 points by jeivers (278) 2 years ago

Good point - it's all printed by the Feds - and they can pull 16 Trillion out of their back pocket for the banks but DC can't come up with 1 Trillion for a real jobs program --- Pathetic!

[-] 1 points by IAmOWS963 (7) 2 years ago

Walk away and read Wildfire:The Legislation that Ignited the Great Recession. This book points the finger squarely at Wall Street and our politicians. Bunch of crooks. #endgreed

[-] 1 points by steve001968 (31) 2 years ago

So walk away then. When you do your credit is shot, my good credit score moves to a higher overall percentile and I get better loan terms to beat you out of mortgages, car and other loans. Knock yourself out. Walk away.

[-] 0 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

I already have. and since I am never going to use credit again, I don't give two sheets about not being able to get credit. is any of this sinking for you yet? we all walk away and the current system of corrupt banks collapses.

[-] 1 points by annonasandra (48) 2 years ago

Neither do millions of other people give two shits about getting credit, nor should we.

[-] 1 points by SamfromPhilly (6) 2 years ago

true and powerful

[-] 1 points by SSJHilscher (75) from Madison, WI 2 years ago

Especially students. Knowledge cannot be repossessed, so students have the least to lose by walking away from their debt. Can someone please explain to me why anyone would pay their student debt?

[-] 1 points by steve001968 (31) 2 years ago

Because if you don't your credit will be ruined and you will not be able to get other loans for things like mortgages, and may very well be denied employment and a place to live. I personally will not hire or rent to anyone with bad credit because it tells me they are a bad risk in general. I won't even consider them. If your loan is backed by the federal government they will take anything and everything you have including your SS benefits if you live that long to get it back.

[-] 1 points by SSJHilscher (75) from Madison, WI 2 years ago

Lol, oh no, not ruined credit! A negative mark on your... permanent record!

Better pay up, students. You wouldn't want any frown power to get unleashed on you.

[-] 1 points by Scout (729) 2 years ago

even paying your bills on time doesn't stop you from being the victim of these vampire parasites !

Bank of America Threatens Foreclosure On Elderly Couple Who Paid Mortgage Early

http://articles.businessinsider.com/2011-08-24/home/29972618_1_mortgage-payment-elderly-couple-abc-news#ixzz1cLAZE5cC

[-] 1 points by ediblescape (235) 2 years ago

Yes, Let's play cheap, lazy and party with global corporations.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

why not? they played real cheap and lazy and had one hell of a party that cost the rest of us dearly. screw the corporations.

[-] 1 points by ediblescape (235) 2 years ago

Let's call International Sick Day at G20 meeting that make me sick.

[-] 1 points by Scout (729) 2 years ago

Hey get real everybody! The f*cking banksters themselves have walked away from their debts !

Commercial Real Estate Holders Decide to Walk Away: The Continuing Double Standard from the Banking Industry. Debt Ceiling Raised to $12.4 Trillion Making Room for more Bailouts.

"“(WSJ) So we’ve discussed the ethics of individual borrowers walking away from their mortgages. (Some say we’ve over-discussed it.) If it’s immoral, as some would say, for a borrower to walk away their mortgage, is it any different for a bank?

Morgan Stanley is doing just that. News reports on Thursday said the bank plans to give back five San Francisco office buildings to its lender-just two years after buying them at the top of the market."

http://www.mybudget360.com/commercial-real-estate-holders-decide-to-walk-away-the-continuing-double-standard-from-the-banking-industry-debt-ceiling-raised-to-124-trillion-making-room-for-more-bailouts/

monkey see monkey do

[-] 1 points by RicoSuave (218) 2 years ago

What if our "debt" is owed to the government?

Are they as "evil" as a corporation?

[-] 1 points by annonasandra (48) 2 years ago

Yes, it would appear so.

[-] 1 points by steve001968 (31) 2 years ago

If the debt is owed to the government suicide is the only way he/she is walking away from that 9 out of 10 times. When they are old and gray and think it's forgotten the govt will suddenly w/o warning garnish it from their SS benefits.

[-] 1 points by suyabaa01 (244) from Milford, CT 2 years ago

Individual's debt and government's debt are different.

Individual's debt is real, it's our obligation to pay it. Government debt is artificial: it's manufactured by the (so called) debt-money system. If a government would have been using debt-free money system, it would have zero debt, and would not need to schedule austerity measures. If you want to learn more debt-money and debt-free money, try these links:

Money As Debt: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2550156453790090544, or Banking - the Greatest Scam on Earth: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G9IH-XKQpOI

Thomas Jefferson: "This issuing power (of money) should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs."

It's time to follow advice of great leaders. It'a solution to all national debt problems.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

no its not, its walking away from slavery, from an unfair system. you are talking about morality while we are discussing the very evil system of capitalism in 2011? for real?

[-] 1 points by Tryagain (300) 2 years ago

That's the self-serving rationalization of someone trying to hide their own greed. Pay your damn bills.

[-] 0 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

yes, i am SOOO greedy. I wish I had something more to give to those poor corporations. I'd be able to pay if it wasn't for their greed. but, I guess its people like me that caused the problem. if we'd all just had gotten jobs and paid our debts then none of this would have happened.... wow, that is really wacko logic.

[-] 1 points by Tryagain (300) 2 years ago

Just repay what you took. You borrowed money. You spent it. You're reneging on your and squirming for a rationalization. Your greed is showing.

[-] 0 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

are you gonna make me repay it? ha ha good luck on that one. no rationalizations here. just the awful reality - as you are demonstrating quite well for us. you are ignorant.

[-] 1 points by Tryagain (300) 2 years ago

You're a greedy slacker. Greed isn't only in amounts. But go away, steal. You might be able to file bankruptcy, but some of it might stick. Then it's a judgment against you that'll sit there. And the record of your bankruptcy will follow you for years. When you do finally grow up, that'll matter one day. So, go ahead tough guy.

[-] 1 points by Tryagain (300) 2 years ago

For those wondering if banks have a monopoly on greed, now you know, they don't.

Simply flaking on your debts is theft and itself greed.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

really? so, a bank that was bailed out with my tax money and has made 127% more profit since we bailed them out, kicks me out of my home instead of refinancing is NOT greedy? and I am? I think you are confusing the victim with the attacker.

[-] 1 points by anotherone773 (734) from Carlyle, IL 2 years ago

"Do you really think that continuing to make your payments on your debt is going to make your future any better?" - Do you know what would happen if everyone stopped paying on debt and i mean everyone... i can sum it up in three words... total economic collapse.

[-] 0 points by Owlet (99) 2 years ago

Well, I don't have any debt so I don't have any payments to make. If you were stupid enough to live beyond your means, that's your problem.

[-] 2 points by Pertello (80) 2 years ago

A lot of people paid faithfully on their credit cards until they were laid off or became too ill to work. I speak to hundreds of people in debt every week at my job, and very few can be classified as "lazy, irresponsible or stupid". They are mostly folks who have fallen on hard times and can no longer afford to make payments. Many noble souls still attempt to make even tiny payments. They say, "I know it's my debt and I intend to pay it."

[-] 1 points by SmartAlx (59) 2 years ago

Even if you don't carry any debt, you still live on debt.

Money IS debt.

[-] 1 points by Tryagain (300) 2 years ago

Wow, you mean that debt is a choice and that free will exists? LOL

[-] 0 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

right. and I and millions of others chose to get laid off. we chose to move American jobs overseas. we chose to tax the poor and not the rich. we chose to de-regulate the banking industry. we chose to bail-out the banks. yep, all the problems are due to us regular folks. damn us for being unemployed and not being able to pay our debts. (I am finally employed again - but, I won't be paying any stinking banks any money)

[-] 1 points by Tryagain (300) 2 years ago

Sorry, your tax idea is a lie. Lower income people have been steadily shed from the federal tax rolls; now almost half pay zippo. The bailout has been mostly paid back. It was a stopper in a liquidity crisis, not a give away. Smarten up and learn the difference.

Debt is a choice. The more debt you chose, the less resilient you became. Truly, if you can't understand something that obvious, we really do need to start over. Maybe they can do seminar nights at the camp where they go over this remedial stuff. One life skill at a time.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

what parallel alternate universe do you live in moneybags?

[-] 2 points by Tryagain (300) 2 years ago

Borrowing money takes more money than not borrowing money. Borrowed money requires interest. Your post just serves to underscore how deep the debt culture ran. It ran to the point where people like you didn't even know it was a choice. This is why this adjustment period is so tough.

[-] 0 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

no, I used my credit cards and max'd them out so I wouldn't be homeless, so, that I could buy food, so, that I could go to the dentist. because, I got laid off (not my choice) and because there were no jobs to be had not even bagging groceries (not my choice). the "adjustment period" can be skipped and we can go straight to the "get rid of the present unethical system of corporate greed" and create a new democratic economic system where the voice of the people is THE voice in making economic decisions.

[-] 1 points by Tryagain (300) 2 years ago

Yeah, great. Your society tried that one and it took decades for freedom to be restored. Wow, some people never learn.

[-] 0 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

come again? wow, how old are you? you aren't making any sense.

[-] 0 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago
[-] 0 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

who "lived beyond their means"?

[-] 1 points by Owlet (99) 2 years ago

People who pay $60 a month for iPhones they can't afford.

[-] 0 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

and who is that?

[-] 0 points by getajoblosers (65) 2 years ago

I do not carry a credit card balance. I borrowed money to purchase a home, and I am paying it back as promised. What is so complex about that concept? If all people would simply do that, and if our government would do the same, the world would be a better place.

[-] 0 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

that would be really great, wouldn't it?

[-] 0 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

I've been thinking. The fact that the bank can't prove ownership would at least be a powerful leveraging tool for the homeowners to negotiate with the bank on the debt and the payments. The homeowners would be in the position of power (exactly the opposite as it is now) and could dictate a reasonable agreement. and put off foreclosure and eviction. in fact, the debt wouldn't be able to be reported as a negative on their credit report. at least it would do that. If you were someone like me, you could actually walk away from the debt.

[-] 0 points by raines (699) 2 years ago

You've been thinking? No not really , it's over reach for you.

[Removed]

[-] 0 points by annonasandra (48) 2 years ago

787 posts on this forum this morning, and a good discussion is going on (leave fragile egos at the door!). In an effort to boil it down, this is what I see: 1. People think the system is corrupt and dangerous, and that we should crash it. 2. People think the system is corrupt and dangerous and they are scared as hell to crash it because a too corrupt and dangerous situation will result. 3. People are still making value judgements on each other: "You borrowed the money, so You should pay it back. Don't take us down with you." 4. Another observation: We average people have so much power that we are scared of ourselves. And yet we feel powerless. 5. We're screwed no matter what we do; in fact, we're screwed if we do nothing at all. 6. And even if we are screwed no matter what, some people still think they are going to come out of it OK because of their hard work and sense of personal responsibility.

I have to work. I will check back later.

[-] 1 points by davboz (79) 2 years ago

Myopic interpretation of the ideas on this page.

[-] 1 points by annonasandra (48) 2 years ago

Ho-hum, always so much criticism. Ok, you boil it down then. What's going on here?

[-] 0 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

great observations!

[-] 0 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

I think this idea could definitely could work. At least with mortgages. I need to read through all these posts, but, I've got an idea myself concerning a nationwide mortgage protest that will take "walking away from your debt" through several legal steps to get it accomplished. The central idea is that it is difficult to track ownership of the mortgages because they were bundled by the 100's into a sub-prime product AND MERS has done such an awful job of tracking ownership. That means, if the bank can't prove ownership, they can't evict or demand payment. I think there is a core there for a good ideal. Anyone else have some ideas?

[-] 0 points by Scout (729) 2 years ago

The Collapse Of Our Corrupt, Predatory, Pathological Financial System Is Necessary And Positive

" The only way to clear a zombie economy is to write off uncollectable debt and liquidate all the assets, loans and hedges. "

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/guest-post-collapse-our-corrupt-predatory-pathological-financial-system-necessary-and-positive

[-] 0 points by THEBUILDER (0) 2 years ago

I lived in Rancho Cucamonga Ca my entire life,until bank took my house back in 2008,I had no much coices after my credit gets smash to moved to south America,Now looking my country from here I found out the system is totally fu..up Here in the 3rd world education is much better,free!!you can became an engineer for free here,hospital with latest tecnology also free ,and houses are way much cheaper here.I feel sorry to left my country behind ,my friends and family,and everything cuz I tryed to purchased the american dream....A house,and off curse!!i didn't and I will not pay not even a penny of my debts.look at my I still alive,I have a job,I have a house and a car,your life wont end cuz you dont pay your debts,here is my experience,may be you have a different one,but the system was created to people be slave of the system don't get attached.

[-] 1 points by native (29) 2 years ago

schools are free in the usa too, but a quick read of your post indicates to me you quit school too. glad you are happier in s. america.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

its hard for Americans to imagine anything better since many have never lived anywhere else. I, and millions have. I can tell you this: there are much better places to live. places where the people still control things. This is what we need to get back to. A government of the people and those people making the economic decisions - not corrupt banks and corporations. we need Jesus to throw them out of the government.

[-] 0 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

ok, wow, I'M an idiot. I didn't realize how many posts there are. Its gonna take me hours to read them, but, I will. So far, I've read so many great posts that have inspired me. And, I guess we all need some inspiring. Ok, I guess I need some inspiring. I've met a whole community that is just full of people who want to encourage and empathize - and who have the fire and determination. I feel exhilarated by this new sense of action and purpose - I haven't felt it for a long time. Thanks everyone. Thanks to my new community and for welcoming me so warmly. love you all. and really, now, good night and keep up the good peace and keep the good care you give to your brothers and sisters.

[-] 0 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

stay strong my brothers and sisters. we are in this together. the beginning has started. what a wonderful day is coming. its gonna come because we will make it happen, all of us. we don't have to hope on some politician who promised us something. we know its gonna happen because we are doing it right now! :)

[-] 0 points by karenpoore (902) 2 years ago

WAKE UP PEOPLE!

www.activistpost.com/2010/08/10-signs-us-is-becoming-third-world.html www.activistpost.com/2011/11/world-war-3-foregone-conclusion-video.html

[-] 0 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

ah, me, another day of being a part of a movement based on action, a social movement, feeling like I'm part of a community, part of a family, a family that wraps around this wonderful planet of ours. We all want the same thing: peace, community, nurturing, caring. To be part of something meaningful. Its a wonderful thing. Love you all. Its bedtime for me here, but, you are all in my thoughts everyday. Keep up the good struggle, keep those enthusiastic smiles on your face. We can face anything together. Good night.

[-] 0 points by betuadollar (-313) 2 years ago

If everybody walks away from their debt it all lands on the taxpayer. Which is entirely what this movement is about, right? Laying it all on the taxpayer?

[-] 0 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

you mean like the tax payers paying for the bank bailout? like that? we didn't even have a movement for that. government and corporations made that decision for us. you're an idiot.

[-] -1 points by betuadollar (-313) 2 years ago

Yea exactly. Walk away and it all falls on the taxpayer and the consumer. If you're still in school, it all falls on the parents.

[-] 0 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

"taxpayer" "consumer"? what ever happened to "Citizen"? or are the people no longer in charge?

[-] 0 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

where have you been? that's already been happening. so, you'd like it to continue to happen? you're an idiot.

[-] 0 points by betuadollar (-313) 2 years ago

Sure, I mean obviously no one here as a concern for the financial position of parents. So why not?

[-] 0 points by Leynna (109) 2 years ago

The only way it would work is if everyone did it..en masse...and simultaneously. The individual doing this would only hurt themselves, but if we all did together, what could they do? Are they going to go after millions of people? I don't think so...they can't get all of us!

Your fellow human being

Leynna

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

its true, but, I have had to do it by myself, and really all that happened was a bad credit report - which I would have had anyways..

[-] 0 points by annonasandra (48) 2 years ago

At this moment, this particular forum has 540 comments attached to it, WAY more than the majority of all posts on this forum. People do care about their personal debts and what is going to happen.

Good job, tulcak. Let's keep talking, people.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

thanks!! :)

[-] 0 points by annonasandra (48) 2 years ago

I have been watching this forum for a couple hours this morning. Thanks to Prague (tulcak) for bringing the issue to the forum.

Things are starting to move here and that's great. The level of sarcasm is going down and the thought processes are going up. That's what we need. Good job Everyone. Keep talking.

Also, please exercise your ability to downarrow comments that derail us. We have serious work to do. I also suggest just not responding to sarcasm. It's a waste of time and energy. Not that I know anything.

[-] 0 points by aquainted (268) 2 years ago

I kinda like this idea... hmmm.... but I don't have any debt. HELP, I need some debt!

[-] 0 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

no, you really don't want debt. they are chains that enslave you to corporations. i don't have anymore.

[-] 0 points by aquainted (268) 2 years ago

Thanks, I almost ran out and bought a house and hybrid

[-] 0 points by barb (835) 2 years ago

Not paying our debt would be a bad idea since that one can turn around and bite us in the butt. However, interest is earned on it so paying your bills on the due date and not before reduces interest from building on it.

We could scale our spending to just the basic necessities that we need to survive. These are little things that do add up when everyone is doing it.

[-] 0 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

why do you need banks to survive or have basic necessities? that sounds like slavery. sort of like when a town privatizes its water and utilities. you must pay or the company will shut off the water.

[-] 0 points by mynameisfred (115) 2 years ago

Make sure you turn in your car and home first.

[-] 0 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

don't have a car, never owned a home. thanks capitalism. by the way, the public transportation and free health care are fantastic here. and I only pay 26% total tax compared to 34% in the US. just where the hell is American tax money going? oh yeah, corporate welfare and wars.

[-] 0 points by mynameisfred (115) 2 years ago

52% of the fat ass Americans you see pay ZERO taxes. Yet they get a "REFUND" check.

[-] 0 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

I paid more in income tax than all of the top 30 most profitable corporations in the US. Why? Because they paid ZERO for the past three years. In fact, GE got a 3.2 billion dollar tax benefit. 88% of American real revenue went to corporate PROFIT. only 1% went to salaries and wages. The 99% always have to pay taxes. ALWAYS. The top 500 corporations paid an average of only 18% income tax. WHY? There is 2 trillion dollars of profit sitting in their accounts - none of it has done any "trickling down". We bailed the banks out with our tax money. We should have paid off everyone's mortgage with our own money. The FAT is in the 1% while the rest of us are getting SCREWED. you're an idiot.

[-] 1 points by davboz (79) 2 years ago

Get the wobbly progressives out of government and business will feel secure in the future and we can get going again. Everything has to be seen in terms of the environment in which it exists. Obama gave corporations a one year deal to depreciate new assets in full - 100% - the first year of purchase. That is a tax write-off. Your beef is with HIM if those statistics are what you believe to be the problem. These corporations are global now thanks to legislation by our Congress over the past decades. Your beef is political. Remove the insecurity about what is going to happen next year, even tomorrow, in terms of regulation, taxes, OpharmaCare, etc. and businesses will begin to function. Remove recently granted autonomous authority in the federal regulatory agencies. Return stability to government.

[-] 0 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

you're telling us what the movement is and who we should be angry at? you're a nobody with nothing to believe in. the OWS is a social movement, not a political one. but, you are trying to argue with people that don't exist either in this movement or in real life. very bizarre.

[-] 1 points by davboz (79) 2 years ago

Confirming my deepest suspicions that they don't exist "in this movement". And oh, they DO exist in real life. Rendering YOUR goals absolutely meaningless. If you aren't addressing the problems I've stated you're blowin' your wad into the night sky, brother. "Your sperm's in the gutter, your love's in the sink."

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

If I am not addressing the problems you've stated? Who the F are you? you're nobody. man, you really are a pompous blowhard. look everyone, its King George on his high and mighty horse. He is mr. all-knowing and we best do what he says. how laughable you are.

[-] 0 points by mynameisfred (115) 2 years ago

I'm in the 99% and love what I make. I'm getting screwed by the fat ass Americans that want my taxes to go up. I made MY money and they can make their money. I dont sit around and whine about the rich because I plan to get there with them. I own stocks in those "corporations" therefore, I'm one of the owners that pays capital gains. Corporations DO pay taxes because Im paying my share of ownership (your the idiot). Corporations Are The People and we vote by purchasing stocks. If a corporations does poor the corporation fails. If a liberal democrat politician fails, you liberal idiots keep voting for them. THey are rich liberals and you poor liberals love them, slobber over them, drop tears down your face for them then vote again for them while they go back to their millions hidden in their mansions paying for their jets. You are the real idiot.

[-] 1 points by davboz (79) 2 years ago

Fred, good job, brother. You'll get no reality from those such as this one below me here. Don't get frustrated. Keep making your reality known, man. WE need to see capitalism restored and, yes, control ripped back away from the banks, Fed control over government cut, but these guys are on the wrong path. There are deeper stealth intentions in this movement and they are predators moving in when we are at our weakest. This is ther point in time where the people (you & I) stand up and push back. These folks are invaders in a way. Note their emphasis in trying to convince the masses that they are "all of us". That is agit-prop and this group is not in our best interests!

[-] 0 points by RichardGates (1529) from Fort Walton Beach, FL 2 years ago
[-] 1 points by davboz (79) 2 years ago

Yeah, I love Colbert. Funny. So, what's up? My point is that there are real issues to be solved. Crucial distortions in, and hi-jacking of our economic system. I've been trying to wake people up to it long before this group came into the open. My point is that (if you read my words and actually process what I'm saying) this group, at the roots, is here to use this situation, capitalize on the anger and frustration of people and usher in a system they've wanted to for long before these bad times hit. People better know who it is that is speaking in their name and what their freakin ideologies really are. Most mainstreamers are naive. How do you think the banks grabbed the reins in the first place?

[-] 0 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

ha, well, it sucks to be you. the beginning is near. and the justice of it is that you won't be able to enjoy it when it happens.

[-] 0 points by mynameisfred (115) 2 years ago

Im not a 1% and already enjoy it.

[-] 0 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

you enjoy other people's suffering? you enjoy injustice? you enjoy the control of corporations over all of us?

[-] 0 points by mynameisfred (115) 2 years ago

It is Sunday afternoon. Sitting here thinking about your question. I ask myself about any corporation control there is over me. I ask myself about the federal government taxes I pay as control there is over me. My answer, I'm forced to pay huge taxes and watch 52% of fat ass lazy people pay ZERO. Let me think. I pick GOVERNMENT. Cant think of ONE SINGLE CORPORATION that has control over me. You?

[-] 0 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

really? you're an idiot.

[-] 0 points by mynameisfred (115) 2 years ago

Which "corporations" are sitting there whining about? I bet its NOT GE.

[-] 0 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

no GE is laughing all the way to its own bank. and us Americans are looking through the window of the fancy restaurant on main street watching the rich enjoy themselves and point at us and laugh.

[-] 0 points by l31sh0p (279) from Sand Fork, WV 2 years ago

Your debts. YOUR debts. Yyyy-oooo-uuuu-rrrr debts. Have some personal responsibility.

[-] 0 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

yep, MY debts and I choose to walk away. and you can worry about YOUR responsibility.

[-] 0 points by l31sh0p (279) from Sand Fork, WV 2 years ago

The debts that you agreed to, signed, and are responsible for. Enjoy our court system.

[-] 0 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

ha ha ha. I already walked away. my debt got sold to a collection agency. I moved. the agency gave up. i wrote it off for a tax credit. end of story. you're an idiot.

[-] 0 points by l31sh0p (279) from Sand Fork, WV 2 years ago

I'm an idiot because I am aware how the legal procedure works for people that try and weasel their way out of problems they themselves created? I believe you resort to derogatory comments because you truly have no valid opinion.

Collection agency's don't 'give up'. They buy your debt implicitly because they will never stop until they get your money. You're making up a story to solidify your lies. So sad.

[-] 0 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

I know what you are saying is crap. I walked away from my debt. The bank sold it to a collection agency and wrote it off for a tax credit. I moved. The agency gave up and they and I wrote it off. End of story. anyhow, how can any threat you or anyone else can make to me make my situation any worse than it already is? HOW? you can't and they can't. they pushed it too far and now they have nothing left to threaten with. we are all as low as we can get.

[-] -1 points by l31sh0p (279) from Sand Fork, WV 2 years ago

What do you even mean you 'wrote it off'? That doesn't make sense... and you have no idea of the processes of business with collection agencies. I'm assuming you're unemployed because your wages would be garnished. I'm assuming your credit was garbage, otherwise it is now.

Your life is WAY better now, what was I thinking?

[-] 1 points by LoveToLickCum (54) 2 years ago

Well if he lives in a state that doesn't allow garnishment of wages or seizure of your house for unsecured debt like Texas, than what the fuck can they do? Not a damn thing.

[-] 0 points by raines (699) 2 years ago

he said he lived in the czech republic.

[-] 0 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

what do you mean "what do I mean"? I mean exactly that. its all a stupid debt game which continues to decimate OUR world. why are you so worried about banks and corporations? they are destroying your country and you still bend over as their butt slave. you're insane. you're an idiot.

[-] 0 points by karenpoore (902) 2 years ago

I would love to walk away from our house that is now worth less than what we owe, but the problem is that we are retired and depend on government pensions and social security checks which we fear will be taken away from us if we walk. Any thoughts?

[-] 2 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 2 years ago

yes. have some OWS protesters occupy your house with you. They can help pay the rent and do some repairs. Also, MERS may not have accurate paperwork on whether they actually own the mortgage. In that case, they shouldn't be able to evict you and you shouldn't have to pay them. I'm not a lawyer, but, maybe some of the OWS protesters you ask to stay with you are. We all need to be there for each other. Average Americans. We've been trained to be slaves and distrusting of each other. We need to learn how to be free again.

[-] 1 points by annonasandra (48) 2 years ago

Love this.

[-] 0 points by karenpoore (902) 2 years ago

I appreciate your feedback, but I do not know if it applies to our situation. We would like to move some where else, but we cannot because we cannot sell our house because we owe more that it is worth in the current economic situation.We have talked about just walking away, but we are afraid they will take our social security and state pensions and apply the money to our mortgage loan. Since we can afford to pay our mortgage I do not think we qualify to file bankruptcy.Being older and living in a 1200 sq ft house we have been hesitate/afraid in having protesters stay with us that we do not know.

[-] 0 points by raines (699) 2 years ago

How long have you owned you house? when did you buy it?

[-] 0 points by karenpoore (902) 2 years ago

12/13 years ago

[-] 0 points by raines (699) 2 years ago

You owe more than your house is worth and you bought it 12 years ago? You put money down and have been paying the mortgage. WHY are you underwater? Did you borrow money against your house? DO NOT let any ows types move in with you.

[-] 0 points by karenpoore (902) 2 years ago

Plus there are so many foreclosed houses on the market for a lot cheaper so why would anyone buy our house?

[-] 0 points by karenpoore (902) 2 years ago

We have not had an official appraisal lately, but we are assuming our value has gone down with everyone else values. Money put down Have been paying the mortgage (Ha, mostly interest). Cost about 120k and I think we are down to 98k. Never borrowed on the house

Even though I am 64, I believe in a lot of the complaints of this movement very strongly, but I guess you are right. I am a OWS type though too ... lol

[-] 0 points by raines (699) 2 years ago

12 years ago you would have had to put down 20% to get a mortgage. $120,000 minus $24,000 = $96,0000. Your numbers don't make sense.

[-] 0 points by karenpoore (902) 2 years ago

I think there is a yearly statement somewhere, but here is the last bill: Monthly payment: $1,063.89 Unpaid principal balance: $98,075.46 Interest rate (fixed): 6.5% Last payment: Principal = $200.40, Interest = $532.33, Escrow = $331.16 Every time I look at that it makes me mad! Thanks for the zillow link! I will look. That is very helpful.

[-] 0 points by raines (699) 2 y