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Forum Post: The solution to all our issues, this type of college degree!!!!!

Posted 3 years ago on Nov. 29, 2012, 11:58 a.m. EST by TheRazor (-329)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement


Oops. I forgot, these are hard. OWSers want easy, cushy stuff.



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[-] 4 points by freewriterguy (882) 3 years ago

I disagree, for the obvious question remains unanswered. If we all were petroleum engineers, lawyers, chemical engineers, who would build our houses, or clean our water, or even mow are yards? Oh I know, lets only let brain surgeons be home owners, and keep the price so high, that the people who actually work with their hands for a living, we can stick in corporate run trailer parks and never let them own a piece of america...

Here is the brainwashed interpretation of what I am saying... All people should be able to have place to live, and OWN IT, why are we so greedy that we only want to sell our homes at brain surgeon prices? Did we run out of land? Hell no, we could fit the entire earths people on american soil there is so much OPEN LAND.

[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 2 years ago


[-] 1 points by RedDragon (-161) 3 years ago

What the hell are you talking about? Houses are virtually free in the US right now.

[-] 1 points by freewriterguy (882) 3 years ago

really? who is financing them you? cause banks sure as hell arent. They only want to sell them to people who either already have a home, or are so rich they dont need another home.

[-] 1 points by billybelch (10) 3 years ago

Why do you need financing? You can buy a house for 1$ in some areas such as Detroit.

Also you are able to save discretionary income as I have, as long as the money changers don't keep printing more to steal out of your pockets. I live below the poverty line and I could afford a house.

[-] 0 points by freewriterguy (882) 3 years ago

okay, go and buy a house for 1 dollar and ill send you a hundred dollar bill so that you can buy a hundred of them and give them to poor people.

[-] 1 points by billybelch (10) 3 years ago

Not sure why this situation calls for charity. I would merely be a middle man in this instance, what poor person cannot come up with a dollar? Have they made it that hard to hire people these days? Maybe. Sigh.

[-] 1 points by RedDragon (-161) 3 years ago

We don't have to live this way. We actually have the ability to recreate our world. Take one family patriarch who leverages a neighborhood and invites all who are service oriented to live - we pay less in income tax and, quite often, we pay each other; you could use family currency, and no one borrows from anyone who is not family. There are communities in this country that have been doing this for hundreds of years.

[-] 1 points by freewriterguy (882) 3 years ago

sounds like a great possibility. You know there is this big pothole around the corner from my house, and im thinking about going to the store and buying the cold patch myself to fix it. I may not wait for the government bums to get around to do it.

[-] 1 points by elf3 (3533) 3 years ago

Thank You ,Thank You, Thank You!!!! - finally someone gets it!!!! Hit the nail on the head!!! One of the best comments I've ever seen on this site !

[+] -5 points by TheRazor (-329) 3 years ago

No. All people should not have a place to live. Unfortunately there are significant numbers of slothful, lazy people who dont deserve jack.

Housing is too expensive because the government has nade a huge error and has subsidized housing thru foolish tax benefits like mortgge deductions.

A husband and wife working at Walmart can buy this house now!!


Why dont they?

[-] 2 points by quantumystic (1710) from Memphis, TN 3 years ago

with a down payment of 22k working at walmart? ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. you are a fucking idiot.

[-] -3 points by TheRazor (-329) 3 years ago

Oh I see. You want it handed to them, like every other OWSer.

You folks are going to be so dissappointed when the econ tanks again. Unskilled labor is just so easily replaced. You dream of this living wage, as if the minimum wage is gping to be raised to $15/hr. It isnt. I guess everyone wants to be insulated from their errors and errors you do make. The only way to get your piece of the sweet pie of life is to earn it.. Unions are dead. McDonalds structure wont allow unions. Walmart might be unionized, but then who does Walmart serve? Poor people and if WM has to unionize the products in WM will climb in price. I understand wht you want you want the bottom to rise at the expense of those at the top. That wont happen. some of the bottom will rise but at the expense of those at the bottom who are weaker.

[-] 2 points by quantumystic (1710) from Memphis, TN 2 years ago

you of course are aware that the minimum wage in australia is over $16.63 u.s. at this moment aren't you? australian unemployment is 5.4% compared to 7.9%. australian inflation 2.0% us inflation 2.2%. you can't even compare earned benefits. there is no comparison for one they have universal healthcare. i know it is probably hard for you to comprehend these truths and your head probably just exploded but there is no reason that americans can't have the same things.

[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 2 years ago

I agree. Thanks for posting this.

[-] 1 points by quantumystic (1710) from Memphis, TN 2 years ago

no problem it's pretty obvious americans have been hoodwinked into believing we can not have the very things WE CAN HAVE.

[-] 2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 3 years ago

Sounds like you believe the fear mongering from the corp 1% plutocrats.

"If the poor do better the rest of us do worse"

Don't believe the hype. We can demand and receive a living wage without prices rising and upper income losing out.

Just stop whining and support a living wage.

[-] -2 points by TheRazor (-329) 2 years ago

How could McDonalds raise salaries to $15 without doubling price of a burger?

Be specific.

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

No! The Owners will do with a little less profit. They will survive. Wouldn't even feel it.

Please stand with the decent hard working American families being exploited, and not with the corp 1% plutocrats doing the exploiting.

[-] -1 points by TheRazor (-329) 2 years ago

Wow are you stupid. A McDonalds is not owned by the corporation, its usually owned by a mom and pop. I forget how poorly educated you are.

[-] 2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

The franchise system does allow mom & pop ownership, & that is fine. Obviously, the McDonalds corp gets money from each every mo. You gotta be a complete moron or just an anti 99% corp shill to pretend you don't know that.

Well the corp will have to take a little less. Maybe even the Mom & Pop owners. No big deal. No pain for those wealthy entities. And in the end the Mom & Pop owners will benefit because they will have happier, more productive (money saving) workers, & less turnover (so owners will save on training costs brought on by frequent turnover).

Glad I could educate you.

[-] -3 points by TheRazor (-329) 2 years ago

Typical, no link, no proof. you lose.

[-] 2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

Proof of what? That the franchise owners, & corps can absorb a small haircut to provide a living wage to their workers?

None required. It is obvious. You don't want to admit it because you are anti American worker & a corp shill!

[-] -3 points by TheRazor (-329) 2 years ago

No proof, no link, you lose. Easy peezy, loser.

[-] 2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

You must be talkin about your lack of links/proof.

You know corps exploit & take advantage of our fellow Americans.

You don't want to admit it because you are anti American worker & a corp shill!

You have no honor!

[-] 0 points by TheRazor (-329) 2 years ago

Where is your proof? Oh, you dont have any.

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

I think your obstinate, & childishness, along with your blind shilling for corp 1% position proves you are anti American worker & pro corp 1% oligarchs.

You prove you have no honor with every comment. You want some official analysis/report w/ facts for that?


[-] -2 points by TheRazor (-329) 2 years ago

You linked an opinion piece. I said facts. What a silly douchebag! I win, again. Either post links to FACTS or KMA.

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

You ain't interested in anything but your own skewed opinion.

You can wallow in your ignorance, and support corp 1% plutocrats over decent hard working Americans.

In the end immature insults betray the impotence of your argument and ignorance you suffer from.

Good luck in all your good efforts.

[-] -2 points by TheRazor (-329) 2 years ago

No link, no proof, easy peezy, LOSER! Prove with facts that McDonalds can doulbe salaries and keep prices at present level, you foolish loser.

[-] 1 points by quantumystic (1710) from Memphis, TN 2 years ago

the price of a franchise is way out of the range of mom and pop. lets be real it costs 1.9 million dollars for a traditional mcdonalds franchise. mom and pops got 1.9 million? i don't think so.

[-] -1 points by richardkentgates (3269) 2 years ago

70,000-150,000 is closer to your average cost for a fast food franchise. Not everyone that buys a car buys a benz.

[-] 1 points by quantumystic (1710) from Memphis, TN 2 years ago

sure you can buy a subway for those prices. that doesn't mean their business model is one that benefits society. nor does it mean you should be able to pay your employees slave wages. if your business can't cut it paying people a living wage then you need either a new business or a new business model.

[-] -1 points by richardkentgates (3269) 2 years ago

Very very true, but none of that is related to franchise cost.

[-] 1 points by quantumystic (1710) from Memphis, TN 2 years ago

while it may not be related to cost it is certainly related to the business model you are purchasing with those costs.

[-] 0 points by freewriterguy (882) 3 years ago

there are so many forces working against them:

  1. Is their credit good? if no, then to the trailer park! I myself make over 130k a year in sales in my business, but no bank would loan me money for a home let alone my business, I have already tried. (not that my profit was 130k it was only about 28k) Why? because a bait and switch saleman from a yellow page ad lied,to me and got a default judgement against me by a corporation with deep pockets that can afford an attorney. I dont think most people can afford an attorney. And yet still all banks care about a stupid credit report. (Never mind the fact that I have a perfect rental history for 25 years, somehhow I am going to fail if I start buying a home right? DUMB DUMB DUMB AGAIN! Next shall we assume that people struggling magically have a great credit report? I tell you that every fiber of our society has been woven together to help make sure that people individually will fail! (So lets just bail out rich bankers shall we?) DUMB DUMB DUMB.

  2. What about the 20K down required in order to even be considered for the loan, which was prevelant thru out many of my failed loan applications.

  3. The home I did end up buying (thru family, and not banks) the previous owners said had a new roof. Shall I upload the 200 holes i just patched this past week?, or how about the video of several bucket loads of water that came in thru the ceiling, and who could afford to pay for this? Im a man of my word, and here is the proof: https://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=382152431865836

  4. My tax bill on this home went from 1179 to 1275 in the past year, costing me an extra 100 dollars, funny i didnt know that i got a 100 dollar raise this year, did the rest of you? Does that $100 property increase assessment include the faulty roof? or the ceiling and insulation that is caked with black mold? HMMM

[-] -2 points by TheRazor (-329) 3 years ago

You didnt get a bonded home inspection prior to buying? Dumb.

I am going to make your day and your life, at least for the past 25 years. Owning a home over the past 25 years has not been good. You were far better off as a renter, IF and its a big if, you saved the money you would have spent on a home in a simple savings account. I have owned a home for the past 33 years and I have almost zero equity to show for it. I have made a medium sized fortune in investment real estate, but that involves significant risk and a ton of work.

Be grateful you never owned a home. Its was THE smart thing to do, even if in your case it was accidental.

[-] 0 points by freewriterguy (882) 3 years ago

i so agree im glad i never bought, cause now i only have to pay 675 a month. i can do these repairs myself. and as for the home inspection, they didnt guarantee anything, even if they inspected it i could see for myself there was some frozen pipes, leaky roof, but the insurance only wanted to cover the appliances. so i opted without. and kept the money where it belongs in my pocket.

[-] -2 points by TheRazor (-329) 3 years ago

It was so much to your advantage not to have owned a home. I have read your posts and you seem to think land should be free. No, it shouldnt. Land is a huge risk. Real estate is a huge risk. home ownership is a huge risk.

I bought a house in 2001 for $600, 000. I put $250000 into it in remodeling. At one time it was worth $1.4 million. Today I couldnt sell it for $700,000. I am a shrewd, accomplished investor with a ton of money that i can risk and EVEN I lost money on home ownership.

You were smart or lucky. Be thankful.

[-] 1 points by quantumystic (1710) from Memphis, TN 3 years ago

yeah the smart investor who couldn't see the housing bubble. sure you are.

[-] -1 points by RedDragon (-161) 3 years ago

That's not true and you know it because money that is not invested today is spent - buy the house. Just be careful because you can lose your shirt in real estate.

[-] -1 points by RedDragon (-161) 3 years ago

Walmart? You could buy this working part time at McDonalds. And you should buy it, rent it, while you're in high school. Why aren't our educators teaching these life skills?

[-] -1 points by RedDragon (-161) 3 years ago

Go Obama! Own a house, well I've got the perfect tax for you!

[-] 3 points by GypsyKing (8719) 3 years ago

No, in thinking this is the answer, it is you who want the easy, cushy stuff. For neo-cons it's always just about money. Sorry, macktheknife, or whatever, it's not that simple.

[-] 3 points by DKAtoday (32516) from Coon Rapids, MN 3 years ago

macktheknife - LOL

[-] 2 points by GypsyKing (8719) 3 years ago

Well TheRazor, MackTheKnife, ScarFace . . . whatever! LOL

[-] 3 points by DKAtoday (32516) from Coon Rapids, MN 3 years ago

He is an insult to all sharp implements - LOL - as well as the scared face of that nasty drug dealer ( which in "that" case is OK ) . Way too dull in reality.

[-] 3 points by Kinetica (14) from Houston, TX 3 years ago

Another one of those tired "You should have gotten A REAL DEGREE" posts.

[-] -2 points by TheRazor (-329) 2 years ago


[-] 2 points by arturo (3169) from Shanghai, Shanghai 2 years ago

This is daft, what do you want America to become, some kind of banana republic where there are only rich and poor? Do you just want to eagerly submit to being colonized by a global corporate empire? What once made America great is that we were a country with a strong middle class.

There is a vast amount of work today that needs to be done by unskilled labor, both in the US and around the world. Most of our infrastructure has been rated C and D grade by the Army Corp of Engineers. We need a huge mass of people out there digging ditches and pounding nails to put it back together again.

Not only do we have to rebuild what we have, but also to build completely new first class infrastructure, that is, if we want to be the leading first world nation once again. We need a fast train network, like the one in China, and a huge aqueduct project to solve our looming water crisis, like the one the Chinese built to "move south water north".

These all are important, necessary projects, so the people who do them deserve to be paid a decent wage. The combination of improvements to our infrastructure, as well as the upgrading of labor that would occur, plus the establishment of a consumer base are what would make our economy grown.

This site isn't about personal success, its about rebuilding our country. Coming here and talking about your small personal fortune is like butting into a serious conversation that people are having about important problems they are facing and saying "Enough of that, let's talk about me". Its just boorish.

[-] 1 points by Middleaged (5140) 2 years ago

I'm 50 year old. I can put in a year of hard labor in or maybe 2 years if my country needed it ... after having to get tough and get strong enough to do the work. I still have a good body, but I have pains in hips, knees, back, neck, etc.

But I want some kind of credit or pension or recognition for doing Physical Labor for my country. It aint going to be easy to get mself up to speed and in shape ... and able to do the work.

Just for anyone that is listening...

US Guys can build, do the hard labor, and make US Strong. Not always so clear how managers really earn their pay ... but managers probably are expected these days to be sober and not hung over when they go to work.... Probably used to be about being a corrupt person that drank at lucnhtime ...maybe took incentives ... maybe got bribed ... but These days US Mangers should not be drinking at Lunch or going to strip bars ... they should be free of bribes, but maybe Wall Street and some others ARE STILL trading Favors or CONTRACTS... for 1) Promotions 2) Jobs in the Private Sector 3) Pensions in the private Sector 4) Higher wages in the Private Sector .... ect.

[-] -3 points by TheRazor (-329) 2 years ago

Thats how uninformed you are, there are no jobs for ditch diggers anywhere. No one digs a ditch by hand. Almost all heavy construction work is done by machine operators. And those are skilled workers. I believe i read Tar sand pipeline would ned about 10000 highly paid jobs, but i promise there wont be work for the unskilled.

This image of the depression era WPA is dead. Somehow you believe that uneducated highschool dropouts will find $25 hr jobs rebuilding America. They wont. Right now, as we speak, there are highly paid low skill jobs going empty because kids cant pass a drug test. Whose fault is that? THEIRS!!!!!!

[-] 2 points by arturo (3169) from Shanghai, Shanghai 2 years ago

My father was in the construction business, and I worked with him digging a lot of ditches. Machines were used, but a substantial amount of work was done by hand too. Can't get round it, there is some work that machines just can't do.

If the image of New Deal style work programs is dead, its because the financial oligarchy is doing its best to kill it. You probably get your economics ideology from "The Economist" magazine, their favorite mouthpiece.

The premiere project that needs to be done today is NAWAPA, the project designed by the Army Corp of Engineers during the Kennedy Administration. It would solve our looming water crisis in the south west by bringing water from Alaska through the biggest aqueduct project ever in history. It would create tens of millions of jobs, both skilled and unskilled.

And those kids who are on drugs, is it their fault that the CIA has been importing huge amounts of drugs into the US ever since the Vietnam war? And is it their fault that the wealthy elite glamorizes drugs by promoting drug crazed rock stars in the main stream media?

The methodology of mass drug wars was first realized during the opium wars, in which the British elite addicted and demoralized the people of China. They found that a drug addicted population was incapable of resisting them.

Today's global elite are doing the same thing to the American people, all the while laundering hundreds of billions of dollars in drug money through their financial institutions.

[-] -2 points by TheRazor (-329) 2 years ago

you are funny. No way the Greens will just leta canal be dug in prstine forests, so quit posting nonsense.

prove that the CIA is importing illicit drugs, if you cant, delcare on this forum that you are a liar!

[-] 1 points by arturo (3169) from Shanghai, Shanghai 2 years ago

If the Greens want more green, they will have to let canals be dug. A thin thread of a pipeline is miniscule in comparison to the amount of greenery that would flourish in the US if we could import just 20% of the water that falls in Alaska.

After being used in agriculture, that water would evaporate, then be distributed as rain all across the US, helping ecosystems every where to flourish. It would be "nonsense" for the Greens to not allow such a project to go through, that is, if they wish to continue feeding themselves.

There is plenty of information online about the CIA importing drugs. Check it out by doing a search at google, unless you just want to keep you head in the sand. Here is just one example:


[-] 2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

End the drug tests! Or deny work to alcohol users!

Train all high school drop outs so they can drive the heavy machinery and have a $25 hr job.

Easy peezy boss.

If you want to you can see the solution. You seem to look for reasons not to help your fellow Americans. Mostly it is to blame the victim.

[-] 1 points by quantumystic (1710) from Memphis, TN 2 years ago

i would say it is whoever passed the stupid drug laws fault. most people fail for marijuana so really your argument is that of a dying generation.

[-] 2 points by elf3 (3533) 3 years ago

for now until they come up with a way to in-source / outsource/ or technologize your skills (or if the fields people come running to get flooded and now the pay isn't worth quite so much to pay back that $100,000 loan - oops) Also please explain to me how when my full time wages aren't enough to pay all my bills and cost of living I'm going to A-afford classes...and B after picking up a second job to pay for the classes.... um....find the frigging time to go to school? Or does upward mobility end at your parents basement/ front door and ability to get a co-signer?

[-] -3 points by TheRazor (-329) 3 years ago

Study hard in high school, stop smoking pot 24/7 and get an academic scholarship. Its that easy.

[-] 5 points by elf3 (3533) 3 years ago

well did study hard in school (scholarships don't pay shit by the way) could not get a college loan so I never wracked up debt, never took one drug in my life and I've been working full time as a professional for the last 15 years of my life working my way up from meager to slightly higher than meager positions well into my thirties (age). Yet pay in my field has remained stagnant and actually decreased, my rent and car payments have gone up, I never spent any extra money (I'm the cheapest person in the world when it comes to superfluous spending) and I have no ability to save a dime after bills are done I break slightly short, and I must depend on my significant other to pay more than half of the bills which demoralizes me as a professional young full time working woman that I must depend on a man for survival. Ask me what my significant other did for work (I repeat did for work) - in the trades before being laid off after all of his years of labor without one sick day. I'm not some 20 year old speaking out of my ass. So tell me again when I get that second job to pay for classes I can't currently afford-when will i go to class and not show up half dead in the morning for my full time professional position?) Then again we just aren't working hard enough huh, we're doing something wrong? Yes get that second job so you can be taxed into another income bracket - been there done that 16 hours a day. I am no stranger to nor above hard work, I still work hard but after all these years being "gainfully" employed - now I know where it gets you: On a treadmill to nowhere that you tolerate because "could be worse". Because instead of the American Dream, we now have "Hey, it could be worse." Well that's a damn fine mantra to live by. Hey you could have cancer, or no legs or arms, or be a soldier, or be starving - blah blah blah. Yes it could always be worse - just wait and see where that attitude will get you (worse). But you know what it could always be better too - we just have to remove all the greedy CEO's from positions of power in our society, speak out against them, not be enablers, and take away their ability to bribe the system against working people. It's that easy. Want to help? no you just want to keep the status quo so you can seem successful in relation to the rest of the American populous. Awww - you're a special snowflake aren't you? Look at how you rose above all of us stupid lazy Americans, you're smarter and wiser, and just gleaming with intelligence. My my I am impressed. 50 bucks says you're in a government job or a state union hack making you the exact kind of hypocrite i hate most. What I cherish most about myself is that I have integrity. Most of the people that get ahead don't have that (got to be a bully/ push your way in front, step on the throats of anyone who gets in your way) That's the one thing you people (TheRazor) all seem to have in common - bullying (that and connections) and quite often rich families that rent out property to schleps like me at an over-inflated rate- go ahead deny it

Also you didn't answer the question (with the two jobs it takes to pay for school and rent these days) When can I possibly have time to go to class?


[+] -4 points by TheRazor (-329) 3 years ago

Whats your career? Be specific.

[-] 2 points by elf3 (3533) 2 years ago

the number one female profession in the country or at least right up there and even Warren Buffet can tell you just how we are being trampled on

[-] 1 points by quantumystic (1710) from Memphis, TN 2 years ago

not everyone can be an engineer or mathematician.

[-] 1 points by Gillian (1842) 2 years ago

Sounds great but your not considering reality. For one thing, not everyone is wired for an analytical job in science or engineering or medicine. Unless you're an engineer with a local municipality, military or other government job, you're probably find it a bit of a challenge to find a job that pays well and has long term job and financial security. I know plenty of unemployed architects and software engineers. Many of the jobs have been outsourced ( in the past 2 years) and many companies have decided to subcontract to individuals in order to save money in administrative costs and benefit packages. The other issue plaguing our job market is that many companies are hiring people with less work experience in order to keep pay at a minimum. I've observed this in most all jobs. People my age ( 50) are losing jobs that they have had for 15-20 years and being replaced by entry level employees. I think it's more realistic for people to prepare to be self-employed whether it's as a subcontractor or an entrepreneur no matter what your trade or profession is. In any case, a person should have a plan B and be able to turn a hobby or skill into income.

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 2 years ago

Actually, the jobs that were paying well your little gang is desperately trying to destroy or have destroyed and, now, you are sitting on the sidelines talking about how it was the individual. Nice way to shift the blame.

[-] 1 points by Middleaged (5140) 2 years ago

Mid Career is a funny ...and ambiguos term.

The mid career salary of people doesn't reflect the huge salaries of US Professionals at all. Except that Petroleum Engineers are making bukoo bucks. Not sure what to say. There are always people making more money that me or someone like me...and their mid career pay will always be more than what I get for my final retirement salary pay.

I started out at like $15K and was given shit about not deserving the job or the pay that would come later. The chart lists starting pay for my career at way above what I got ... I mean even if you raised the pay for inflation ... seems like there were people making big bucks in my career when they were starting out ...that I had no idea about or even imagined. But I knew that Engineers and Lawyers always get higher starting pay, ...so it kind of seems possible.

Back in those days ... people managed money tighter and didn't pay so much money in salaries. There is a Trend of Higher Salaries because of loose highering policies ... IMHO. (Or I just got the shaft)

[-] 1 points by Shule (2382) 2 years ago

I'm an Engineer. I am also part of the 99%. I am also OWS.

I am not a billionaire or even a millionaire. One reason I'm OWS is so that some rudy 1% doesn't end up taking the nice home that I have from me. I work hard to keep that from happening everyday. No easy cushy stuff here, and I take offense to meatheads calling those with less fortune stupid or lazy when we all should be helping each other out.

[-] 1 points by Middleaged (5140) 2 years ago

Good Man.

My father is an engineer, grew up in the depression, is pretty tough and competitive... I find him hard to talk to. He is the smartest guy I know, but hell of an ego.

I'm thinking there is value in treating people like friends ... in having feelings and in having a heart. There is no definition for soul and religious talk is off the mark. We just have to learn to love our community and our family ...and most of all ourselves. You don't have the problem I have probably ... But ...Now I have to build friendships and familiy from nothing. Patriarchy and being the man that knows the answers or has the expertise is not enough ... and maybe it is a detriment. But that is my issue ... or rather trusting people after working with big Egos is my issue.

There is probably a saying or proverb here for me (not you)... No leader goes unpunished ... or ...well if I start a family, then I am the new patriarch ...I will have to teach deeply. Teach Often. Teach Long. Or I will be the patriarch to blame.

The circle is complete at some point. I can't criticize without eventually being the one to get all the blame.

The US Corporate-Government System is based on Patriarchy that prevents lower level people from learning or ..at least prevents them from moving up the ladder, taking on real management, or assuming real responsibility on a team of professionals that share the information and the business. (or it could be just me ...in which case ...sorry I mentioned it...lol)

[-] 1 points by quantumystic (1710) from Memphis, TN 3 years ago

fail. i am an engineering major. course i am not doing it for the money. i am doing it to build a better world.

[-] 1 points by nobnot (529) from Kapaa, HI 3 years ago

Seems to me that if you place a high vaule on people you get paid crap.Perhaps we should fix that!


[-] 0 points by richardkentgates (3269) 3 years ago

You should add one for skilled trades. There are still many that pay.

[-] 2 points by elf3 (3533) 3 years ago

corporations are making their way into the trades and will begin putting small guys out of business soon enough

[-] -2 points by SteveKJR1 (8) 3 years ago

Where do you get your info from? I have worked in the trades and don't see that happening - you didn't make that up did you?

[-] 3 points by elf3 (3533) 2 years ago

what you think you're safe from the same corporate trends that have hit virtually every other industry? How about in-sourcing (can't tell me you haven't seen that happening)

[-] -1 points by SteveKJR1 (8) 2 years ago

You still didn't answer the question - show facts to back up your statement - I don't know if you have ever worked in the trades but the trades are different when it comes to someone taking over their jobs.

There aren't that many qualified tradesmen in this country whom are qualified to work as a tradesman so it would be impossible for a corporation to put "small guys out of business".

[-] 1 points by elf3 (3533) 2 years ago

I guess maybe I'll start the trend - please oh please corporate construction Developers and companies like Wal-Mart start doing in home construction and electrical/ plumbing paving etc. really really cheap and come and take this guys job away - so he can join in on the America Corruption Fun!!! We'll see if you still love corporate America as much as the rest of us do then SteveKJR1 They already have the buying power to outbuy and underprice any of the equipment you use. They'll make their labor so low you can't ever compete (well at least until you're in bankruptcy and have no job or prospects) Then they'll charge more than you ever did.

Oh yes with a little law twinking via lobbying and bribery won't take much to get those "required by law skills" changed to accommodate what they can provide. All about who has the most influence - you think that's you small guy?

[-] 0 points by SteveKJR1 (8) 2 years ago

You know when you make statements like this it reinforces the fact you know nothing about business and wages.

[-] 2 points by elf3 (3533) 2 years ago

it also shows how ignorant and classist you are - and view it only from your end not considering that perhaps the rest of the country is hurting which will eventually hit you (That's a way to do business keep on ignoring the economy around you?) That's very smart! You live in a bubble !!!! You know what bubble's do don't you? Buuuu--rssst....there goes your income.

[-] 0 points by SteveKJR1 (8) 2 years ago

Well I will reply to that by saying this - if people were more responsible for themselves financially this country wouldn't be in a depression - it's called "learning to be financially responsible for your actions".

So if you claim that there are people who aren't capable or have gotton a bad deal because of the "housing bubble" then what you are saying is that '"these people are incompetent because they don't know how to get out of the situation they are in".

You may think raising taxes on the rich will solve the ills of this counry but it won't because more and more people will look to the government for their needs.

Just like OWS claims that it's the governments job to provide college, living wage, food and clothing.

Well keep thinking that way - keep thinking that the makers in this country need to be screwed and pay more because the takers want more".

You along with the X,Y and melinimum generation are forgetting there will be 76 million baby boomers retiring within the next 30 years - 76 million people not buying new houses, not buying new cars, not shopping at wallywold for the latest greatest gadgets.

There is going to be a "hugh vacuume" in the workforce and those jobs will be gone and lost forever. You had better have a plan that's all I have to say.

[-] 1 points by gsw (2972) 2 years ago
[-] 0 points by DanielBarton (1345) 3 years ago

thats a good idea

We are also short skilled labors in the manufacturing market that companies are have to hire people outside of the us to fill these jobs.

[-] 0 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 3 years ago

And there are new ones emerging. You don't need a college diploma to make a web site.

[-] -1 points by richardkentgates (3269) 3 years ago

Speaking of, have you seen this yet? Man I'm fucking excited about this.


[-] 0 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 3 years ago

That's already been possible with S3 for years. But yes, it's exciting. (If you use S3 instead, then you can also easily hook it up to CloudFront for edge caching.)

[-] -1 points by richardkentgates (3269) 3 years ago

Yeah but doesn't that require you to compile with their libraries? The reason this excites me is that with Javascript, from what I see so far, you can do this on any VPS.

[-] 0 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 3 years ago

No, you can just take an HTML file and stick it on S3 and make it visible as a web site. You can map a domain name to it and it can reference images that are also stored in the same bucket. It's by far the cheapest way to host a static site, and it's also extremely fast and extremely reliable. And even faster if you use CloudFront. SHOCKINGLY fast, with CloudFront.

Here are two examples: http://technogeno.us http://ryanalynporter.com Both of those are static sites (generated by Octopress) that I publish by simply copying the files to S3. It makes doing updates super easy. I type "rake generate" to generate the site and then "rake deploy" to deploy it to S3, and the whole thing is done in about three seconds. I tried to tell you about it at least once before, months ago.

[-] -1 points by richardkentgates (3269) 3 years ago

ok ok, my bad. I thought you were talking about the pre-existing API for using google docs. I fail to see where I could make use of Amazon servers because there is no PHP support, correct?

[-] 0 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 3 years ago

Google Drive and S3 site publishing both need static HTML files, not PHP. That's what I meant about using Octopress to generate HTML. Google Drive isn't going to run your PHP files.

[-] -1 points by richardkentgates (3269) 3 years ago

But the google docs API does have ways to create dynamic work, as does the new Drive API which is also simpler. Does Amazon have any such API or functionality? Can you modify and push to their servers from a website?

[-] 0 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 3 years ago

Of course you can, but that's not the same thing as running PHP from the Google Drive servers or the S3 servers. A common use-case for S3 for apps running on cloud systems like Heroku that don't have local storage is for the web app running on the cloud server to accept a file upload and then use the S3 (or Rackspace Cloud Files, or Google Drive, or whatever) API to upload the file there.

Example: https://github.com/thoughtbot/paperclip

As with most things, it's a lot uglier with PHP, but it's possible: http://net.tutsplus.com/tutorials/php/how-to-use-amazon-s3-php-to-dynamically-store-and-manage-files-with-ease/

[-] -1 points by richardkentgates (3269) 3 years ago

So basically, cheaper drive space is what you get from it? This makes sense on really big works. The google drive excites me because clients can edit files that then reflect on their site, aside from the other advantages.

[-] 0 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 3 years ago

Well, web developers use S3 partly for cheap, fast, reliable storage, but things like Paperclip and Carrierwave became hugely popular mainly because you generally can't store uploaded files on cloud servers. Many cloud systems, like Heroku, come with read-only file systems. You deploy your code to it, but your code can't write files to the file system. Other cloud systems do have writable storage, but it's too ephemeral to use for permanent storage or it's just a bad idea. If I have a cluster of 10 EC2 servers running, then which server is going to store the file uploads, and how are the others going to deal with finding the files? If I regularly spin up new servers and then kill them off to deal with traffic spikes or whatever, then I don't want files that users uploaded to vanish when I kill off a server.

Using a storage service can also draw traffic away from the web servers that run your web app. For example, I run a web app that does event ticket sales, which results in massive traffic spikes. I can cut my HTTP request volume on that app by orders of magnitude by moving the images and .css and .js files from the web servers to S3.

You're talking about a completely different use-case. You're talking about using Google Drive basically as a document-based database for storing your web site's content, rather than static assets. But doing it that way instead of using a real database would make it a lot harder to add real CMS features to the site. I tried to point out Mongo DB to you months ago because it's a more-appropriate way to do exactly what you're talking about. I strongly suggest that you tinker with using Mongo HQ, which is a cloud-based Mongo DB service that enables you to not worry about maintaining the database at all. Mongo HQ works just like Google Drive for the use-case that you're talking about except that it's more appropriate because Mongo DB can pull parts of the document out for you, not necessarily the entire document. The user wouldn't be able to go directly to the storage service to mess with their content, but that's what the CMS features in your sites would be for.

[-] -1 points by richardkentgates (3269) 3 years ago

I looked into Mongo and they have a LOT of bugs to work out, some potentially serious. I get your angle now but if I was going to do all that I would just set up my own server. $3-5,000 shouldn't be hard to come up with if you have such a large and profitable project. But then I'm a hardware nerd too.

[-] 0 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 3 years ago

Wow, okay. Well, I've been running Mongo DB in production for years with no problems. It's very reliable. I understand your aversion to SQL and that's exactly why I'm pointing to Mongo DB, because what you're proposing with Google Drive is a document-based database. You're not opposed to databases, you're opposed to relational databases. Mongo DB is just a collection of documents, just like your Google Drive account. But Mongo DB understands the data that's in the documents far better than Google Drive does.

As far as the $3-5k thing, one of the most compelling factors driving the widespread adoption of cloud computing is that it shifts your expenses, from capital expenditures (stuff you have to buy in advance) to operational expenditures (stuff that you pay for on a monthly basis). That's an even bigger factor for the individual or small startup, and that's why cloud computing is such a significant trend that enables the little guy. You personally do not have $3-5k/mo to run a server, but you can go to Mongo HQ and create a database for free. Instead of over-purchasing computing power in advance that you don't need (like a $5k server) you instead purchase exactly as much power as you need, when you need it. Which can dramatically lower startup costs.

[-] -1 points by richardkentgates (3269) 3 years ago

You could start out with something around 1,500 and scale as needed. A T1 or equivalent is around $56 per month. 1,600 startup, add as needed. You're already going to spend that in the first two years. Outsourcing your server begins to lose the cost advantage after that.

[-] -2 points by TheRazor (-329) 3 years ago

Yes there are. But again they involve learning a trade, by yourself and working at menial labor until your master your skill. Master it.

A skilled electrician or plumber or auto mechanic will never be jobless. But it takes a few years to master the requisite skill at minimum wage. A master plumber cant train a novice AND pay him/her $25 hour because they arent worth it until they have mastered certain skills.

[-] 2 points by elf3 (3533) 3 years ago

how do you live on a minimum wage apprentice wage for the required amount of years while working full time hours a day and pay for expensive classes (required to sit for the state exam and to get a licence) that you will take at night and on weekends...and oh... still pay the rent? Oh and how do you get an apprenticeship when even skilled tradesmen can't get hired?

[-] 0 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 3 years ago

Well, training for a skill that pays better than plumbing would be a good start. Try web development.

[-] -1 points by RedDragon (-161) 3 years ago

haha... that's funny. Everyone is a web developer hoping for that one contract while the plumber will turn thousands a day, everyday. And when he gets bored he'll start five other businesses.

[-] 0 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 3 years ago

Unemployment among qualified web developers is essentially zero, FYI.

[-] 0 points by RedDragon (-161) 3 years ago

You must realize there is a saturation point; web developers will be a dime a dozen without new industry in this country. And many now are independents floating along between contracts.

[-] 0 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 3 years ago

There is a massive shortage of qualified developers that will continue for a very long time because not enough people are learning the skills. I'm so desperate to hire talent that I have already hired one person through this forum, and I tried for weeks and failed to hire a second.

This web site is a microcosm that demonstrates the shortage. Out of all of the thousands of people posting here, with dozens or possibly hundreds of them complaining about the structure of this forum and asking for new features, there is only one person capable of making any of those changes. Even though the source code for the web site is open for anybody to submit changes. 99% of the people (more, actually) are dependent on 1% to create the software that the 100% use every day.

[-] -1 points by RedDragon (-161) 3 years ago

But there is no profit in forums like these; example: NYPD needs a site to promote community through a sports program; it pays 50 because that's all they are willing to invest in this. But sooner or later, without ever expanding economy, there is a saturation point. And the web developer becomes another has-been just as the computer tech did.

[-] 0 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 3 years ago

$50 per hour? That's about what people who work with me get paid, and there is no shortage of work. That's $100,000/year. I'm too busy working to dig up articles to demonstrate that there is a shortage, or how easy it is to make money with web skills. If you want to believe that web development is not a high-demand field then you're only hurting yourself. I'm going to go and write some code now, for which I'm paid six figures per year.

[-] 0 points by RedDragon (-161) 3 years ago

No... 50K, that particular site paid a 20 something friend of mine 50K. And I have friends doing sites part time for 75 - 85 an hour. I'm just saying, you don't have to be a brain surgeon and like everything else, its future is limited, especially so if we can't jump start this economy. On the other hand who cares as long as we can get a thirty or forty year career out of it.

[-] -1 points by RedDragon (-161) 3 years ago

haha... it's not "minimum apprentice wage," you're lucky if it's even minimum wage. And it's a rough, rough, life. It means ten degree days forty feet in the air; it means afternoons spent sitting on the top of a pole because the bucket you were in suddenly decided to lay take an afternoon nap; it means long hours on your feet, from basement to second floor to third floor to ladder, up and down, up and down, one hundred times a day, over and over and over again. It's damp basements and crawl spaces and hot attics and roofs and all the little creatures you encounter in such places; it's learning at a very early age that YES electricity CAN kill you; it's a misstep here and a misstep there that gravity will utilize at every opportunity to send your body cascading through whatever impedes its path; it's heavy lifting; it's heavy shoveling; it's a rough life.

How do you get hired when others cannot? It's very simple - you keep it in motion. Life is a circle; sometimes we must pay UP to get paid when things turn down.

[-] -2 points by TheRazor (-329) 3 years ago

Gimmee, gimmee, gimmee. The endless drumbeat of the liberal OWSer.

You should do whatever it takes to become more skilled. Or spend your time whining and hoping Obama gives you a phone and a turkey.

[-] 0 points by shoozTroll (17632) 3 years ago

They're just emulating WallStreet.

Jeeze, I thought you liked that kind thing.

You never did say whether you were going to do the final Rapa Nui thing when all your trees are gone.

[-] -1 points by richardkentgates (3269) 3 years ago

Getting paid to learn while taking classes v paying to learn with no immediate return, is only a factor to be considered, not a red light. In my opinion.

[-] 0 points by DanielBarton (1345) 3 years ago

Im glad i chose a field of engineering to study but thats not why i got into it. The real reason i got into it was to do something enjoyable for me and that will benefit society

[-] -1 points by SteveKJR1 (8) 3 years ago

The solution to everyones issues is getting out there and having a goal and work towards that goal instead of whining about what others have.

I have learned over the years that once you plant the seed towards a goal in time you will reach that goal if you really want to.

I have done this many of time - after I reached one goal I set my sights on another goal and over the years it has built my job experience making me very employable.

There are lots of people who don't have goals and as a result never succede.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (32516) from Coon Rapids, MN 3 years ago

So you should be pretty excited about OWS and all Occupy movements - planting seeds to regulate greed and save the environment and get a living wage for all people and promote universal health care and green technology jobs and infra structure etc etc etc etc.................

[-] -1 points by SteveKJR1 (8) 3 years ago

What I would like to see is OWS strive towards making each other successful instead of pointing fingers at the 1% and blaming them.

Success solves a lot of problems though not all - and if people can understand and learn how to be successful then they wouldn't resent those who are.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (32516) from Coon Rapids, MN 3 years ago

So you would suggest that everyone develop an attitude of to hell with everyone else - I am gonna get mine and everyone is fair game for the fleecing whichever way that fleecing has to take place. You have a pretty bleak world vision.

[-] -1 points by SteveKJR1 (8) 3 years ago

The issue is not about developing an attitude of "to hell with everyone else". The issue is about self preservation and independence. If more people focused on taking care of themselves, learning to be independent and focus on their own success or being successful, we wouldn't be having this conversation because there would be less poverty in this country.

[-] -2 points by usurp (-9) 2 years ago

We should all be enrolled in black studies programs. We need to admit that the white people stole this country from the blacks, the government should pay reparations for what it has done. All white tax payers should pay 25 to 35% in tax surcharges.

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

Sounds like you need to study black & white history. Europeans stole the country from the native Americans right.?

We stole African Americans from Africa so we could have free labor to build the country right?